Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind. We pursue wisdom in
Speaker 1: the past between primary secondary worlds. I'm your host, Andrew Snyder,
Speaker 1: and I am always grateful for your company. For some
Speaker 1: good news, I'm recording quite a few interviews these days,
Speaker 1: and so we're going to have an episode each week
Speaker 1: of November instead of our normal every other week schedule.
Speaker 1: For this episode, I had a conversation with Aaron Barr,
Speaker 1: who was on the show a while back alongside David
Speaker 1: Rowe as we discussed Tlkien short story Farmer Giles of
Speaker 1: Ham and so you can go back in and listen
Speaker 1: to that if you're interested as well. Aaron is the
Speaker 1: author of a joyful outpost exploring the household economy of
Speaker 1: the Beavers from the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe
Speaker 1: and Erin, by the way, is also a patron and
Speaker 1: so he's clearly a man who has his life put together.
Speaker 1: His book is a great read, and it's a fairly
Speaker 1: quick read at that, and so I definitely think that
Speaker 1: you should pick it up. Well, nowl'se go ahead and
Speaker 1: jump into our conversation. I would like to welcome Aaron
Speaker 1: Bear back to the show. It's been a little while.
Speaker 1: Last time we discussed Farmer Giles of Ham along with
Speaker 1: David Rowe, and so it's been a little while. Why
Speaker 1: don't you go ahead and just remind us a little
Speaker 1: bit about kind of who you are and you can
Speaker 1: throw in there what brought you to Lewis as well?
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Well, first off, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2: I got the invite back, which is always the test, right,
Speaker 2: so right, grateful to have another chance to chat with
Speaker 2: you and talk about the Beaver Book I call it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I am a school teacher in Utah. I've
Speaker 2: been teaching at the school I'm Att's in middle school.
Speaker 2: It was my fifth year there. I teach language arts
Speaker 2: for ninth grade and seventh grade, and so my ninth
Speaker 2: graders we actually just started reading George Orwell's Animal Farm
Speaker 2: for the year, which is actually kind of fun on
Speaker 2: the eve of an election. And then my seventh graders
Speaker 2: are about to start at Shakespeare play, which is always
Speaker 2: fun because we we grab costumes from our drama teacher
Speaker 2: and dress up and have a good time with that.
Speaker 1: Wonderful I remember my day's doing Julius Caesar in middle
Speaker 1: or high school and doing dress up and it's a
Speaker 1: good time.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, It's always memorable for the students. So I
Speaker 2: was trying to make Shakespeare fun. You know a lot
Speaker 2: of kids at that age when they when they read Shakespeare,
Speaker 2: like I hate reading him, and so any avenue you
Speaker 2: can use to you know, kind of make it a
Speaker 2: little bit lighter, a little more fun for them. It's
Speaker 2: it's definitely a worthy adventure. Yeah. What else. Uh, I'm
Speaker 2: I'm a father of three worth on the way as well,
Speaker 2: coming in in this next spring. I've been married to
Speaker 2: my wife of nine years, and I'm deacon up my
Speaker 2: church and been able to teach classes for people who
Speaker 2: are either newer to our church in particular or to
Speaker 2: the Christian faith in general, and so I've been very
Speaker 2: thankful to serving that capacity. Uh. Probably probably enough about
Speaker 2: me turning to Lewis, though, you know, I I haven't
Speaker 2: influenced by Lewis for for a very long time. Growing up,
Speaker 2: I was very taken with the Narnia chronicles, especially the Lion,
Speaker 2: the Witch, and the Wardrobe. And then when I got older,
Speaker 2: may being a young adult, I's gotten too as apologetic.
Speaker 2: So I think of, like, you know, mere Christianity, screw
Speaker 2: tape letters, but even some of his stuff on the
Speaker 2: Christian life too, like a like a letter to Malcolm
Speaker 2: that's excellent. I was really taken with with with those
Speaker 2: as a young adult, and as I started pursuing a
Speaker 2: career in teaching, I really got into his literary stuff,
Speaker 2: so gar and criticism, the discard image essays like on stories.
Speaker 2: I was really taken with those, and they're really they
Speaker 2: He's really shaped my thinking on a lot of different things.
Speaker 2: You probably can agree to that, oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: Uh. Currently I'm working on a piece in regards to
Speaker 2: the Fairy Queen, so I'm reading some of Lewis's stuff
Speaker 2: on on that. So his couple of works, his big
Speaker 2: book on sixteenth century literature, and then another smaller one
Speaker 2: where it's like a series of lectures called Spencer's Images
Speaker 2: of Life. So I'm always essentially I always have a
Speaker 2: steady diet of Lewis in my life.
Speaker 1: I think that's I think it's quite healthy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, of course you want to eat like
Speaker 2: all all these greens and proteins. I view Lewis in
Speaker 2: that same.
Speaker 1: Way, right, Yeah. With as prolific as Lewis obviously was,
Speaker 1: both in his more academic work as well as popular works,
Speaker 1: and you know the fact that you know, we recognize
Speaker 1: it's it's all good. Like, what what do you think
Speaker 1: makes Lewis so compelling? Like what makes him so good?
Speaker 1: As brought up a question as that is, Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's a really tough question. I think you need to
Speaker 2: maybe start with, Well, first off, the broad appeal, right,
Speaker 2: everyone loves him. I live in Utah, and it's I
Speaker 2: think it's the one state in the Union that has
Speaker 2: never been predominantly Christian because of the LDS. Lardy Saint
Speaker 2: or Mormon Church. But Mormons loved him. They love Lewis.
Speaker 2: I went to a C. S. Lewis play on stage.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you've been to one of those before.
Speaker 2: I haven't, but it was really excellent. It was really fun.
Speaker 2: But I all wager that the theater was packed, and
Speaker 2: I a'll wager like ninety to ninety five percent of
Speaker 2: the crowd was what was LDS and Mormon. I think
Speaker 2: part of his appeal is he's able to just convey
Speaker 2: things in such an interesting way and in a subversive way,
Speaker 2: kind of like a K. Shesterday, which there's an obvious
Speaker 2: influence there. But then also you know, maybe pulling in
Speaker 2: on stories and why is fiction in particular is so
Speaker 2: compelling the Nardia Chronicles and you know, the Ransom trilogy
Speaker 2: is starting to make a comeback. You're probably on the
Speaker 2: front lines for for why that's happening, doing what I can. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but he's able to just create this this atmosphere, this
Speaker 2: a donegality you could say that's is not rival by
Speaker 2: many other writers that have you know, written recently. You
Speaker 2: know the courser is Tolking, but you probably put the
Speaker 2: list on, you know, one hand.
Speaker 1: Of those kind of writers, right, Yeah, And you know
Speaker 1: regarding to that donegality idea of his writing, you just
Speaker 1: sort of infused with a influence, right, It's like a
Speaker 1: state of things he talks about that. I think it's
Speaker 1: in on stories where you know, he says that what
Speaker 1: really makes for a good story is not just the
Speaker 1: adrenaline rush of the plot progression, but it's the familiarity
Speaker 1: that actually calls you, you know, further up and further
Speaker 1: into a state of being, and that it's that's what
Speaker 1: makes for good writing. I think it's true whether you're
Speaker 1: talking about story or is nonfiction. It's like he doesn't
Speaker 1: just want to teach you things. Although he does that
Speaker 1: he wants to call you up to arresting the eternal good.
Speaker 1: You know, it's all on Plato, right, Professor Kirk says.
Speaker 1: And so he really lays it out right there kind
Speaker 1: of what he's doing. And I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: whether talking is his non fiction or is fiction. You know,
Speaker 1: he has distilled so much of pre modern wisdom that
Speaker 1: then he kind of repackages for the everyday modern, which
Speaker 1: I think that that's really his strong hook, and to
Speaker 1: the point where you know, people will read Lewis and
Speaker 1: say that, you know, he's so prophetic and anticipating kind
Speaker 1: of where culture was headed. And I mean he very
Speaker 1: much was, you know, read something like that the Ransom series, right,
Speaker 1: read that hideous strength, you know, read even the cultural
Speaker 1: critiques of Narnia, you know, the Experiment House and all
Speaker 1: that stuff. That she's definitely was anticipating where things were going.
Speaker 1: But really I think that what makes him so powerful.
Speaker 1: It's just the fact that he had a pre modern perspective.
Speaker 1: He understood things like like what does it mean to
Speaker 1: be man, you know, to be a human, which is
Speaker 1: a question that makes sense in the postmodern world. And
Speaker 1: so he just he had a different array of wisdom
Speaker 1: that he was able to bring forward that so many
Speaker 1: of us are simply bereft of in this world that's
Speaker 1: you know, constantly given over to postmodern relativism and scientism
Speaker 1: and all these things that he just does such a
Speaker 1: good job of dismantling, not even in like an aggressive way,
Speaker 1: but in a very windsome charming kind of way. And
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that makes him
Speaker 1: so compelling. But bringing it more specifically to while we're here,
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your book. I mean,
Speaker 1: what's the basic premise and what led you in this direction?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and actually want to echo some of the stuff
Speaker 2: that you just said, because that's one of the reasons
Speaker 2: why why I wrote the book to begin with, because
Speaker 2: over the past few years, I've just been been really
Speaker 2: convicted about trying to recapture a biblical ontology of man,
Speaker 2: or maybe to put it another way, you know, what
Speaker 2: are we called too? And how does that really work
Speaker 2: with our original design? And so, you know, we find
Speaker 2: ourselves in a world, you know that the postmodern relativistic
Speaker 2: world that is disenchanted with the good, true, and beautiful, right,
Speaker 2: and we're openly aligning ourselves with dark enchantment or you know,
Speaker 2: the dark enchantment of the Witch's Winter. We're openly aligning
Speaker 2: ourselves with that. And so, you know, turning to you
Speaker 2: to the book. One of the reasons why I wrote
Speaker 2: it is is not to you know, unearth some secret
Speaker 2: layer to Lose's writing is kind of like a planet Narnia.
Speaker 2: It's more of like trying to just call attention to
Speaker 2: some of the obvious pre modern truths that Lewis Hell,
Speaker 2: that Christians of old Hell regarding masculinity, feminity, what doesn't
Speaker 2: mean to be an image bear? And it's through the
Speaker 2: lens of you know, the beavers.
Speaker 1: So the beavers are I mean in the big scoop
Speaker 1: in Narnia, I guess the relatively minded. They play a
Speaker 1: significant role in this book. Why why do you think
Speaker 1: they merit this kind of attention? Like what do they
Speaker 1: bring to the story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a few reasons. First off, there they
Speaker 2: are over they are pretty unique to the narrative. Of course,
Speaker 2: there are a bunch of talking animals in Narnia, but
Speaker 2: not every animal can you know, sew and cook and
Speaker 2: smoke a pipe, you know, So they're unique in that regard,
Speaker 2: they belong more to like Kenneth Grom's The Wind the
Speaker 2: Willows more than they do to Narnia. And as they're
Speaker 2: more humanistic than other other animals, I would say, like
Speaker 2: only reap it cheap maybe of a hunter come close
Speaker 2: to rivaling the beavers and being more human than animal.
Speaker 2: And so in that regard that there's really unique, but
Speaker 2: also what they represent to the overall narrative and we
Speaker 2: Alreay kind of talked about the pre modern worldview and
Speaker 2: an opening chapter, I argue that that the beavers kind
Speaker 2: of their symbols there are representations of the old world
Speaker 2: of they are an image of a world that has
Speaker 2: been discarded by by our modern world. And I pull
Speaker 2: in that hideous strength a passage there to kind of
Speaker 2: bolster that argument. And then lastly, they're one of the
Speaker 2: only married couples in Narnia, and you know, seeing their
Speaker 2: dynamic give us a picture. And honestly, for for our culture,
Speaker 2: it's a it's it's a very countercultural picture of how
Speaker 2: husbands and wives are to interact with each other. But
Speaker 2: for Lewis it's just a kind of well, yeah, of course,
Speaker 2: is how you know a man and woman a husband
Speaker 2: and wife should should interact with each other.
Speaker 1: Now, I guess, let me just ask this basic question,
Speaker 1: what is the Christian home like? What does that even mean?
Speaker 1: And how is that differentiated from, you know, the broader
Speaker 1: cultural idea of the home that we're currently dealing with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, A couple a couple of points there,
Speaker 2: I think maybe they answer the first question. Ultimately, I
Speaker 2: think a Christian home is or should be a joyful outpost.
Speaker 2: Just to maybe pull in the title of the book,
Speaker 2: I think one of the most profound images from The Lion,
Speaker 2: the Witch and the Wardrobe is when the Paventies are
Speaker 2: sitting down to dinner with the Beavers, and Pauline Baines
Speaker 2: did a wonderful picture of it, of course, and so
Speaker 2: they're saying to dinner, and in that picture you see
Speaker 2: so many things, right. You see them feasting, They're enjoying
Speaker 2: each other's company, communing with each other. There's hospitality taking place.
Speaker 2: Mister Beaver is telling them the properties of spring, telling
Speaker 2: me about Aslan. Right, So there's there's the prophetic and
Speaker 2: it's there, and there's there's having a great time, and
Speaker 2: it's just it's a deeply charming picture. I mean that's
Speaker 2: we haven't really talked about your your background that much,
Speaker 2: but I mean, look at that background that is as
Speaker 2: so good. And while that's happening outside the Beaver's dam,
Speaker 2: it's the witch's winter, right, it's and it's an enchanted winter.
Speaker 2: It's a winter that's waging war on the Nardians. That's
Speaker 2: ultimately death and despair, thorns and thistles from from Genesis three.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's no good, and yet here's this joyful
Speaker 2: outpost where they are doing what they're called to do.
Speaker 2: And so I think, first and foremost that's what Christian
Speaker 2: home should be. It's it's doing those those types of things,
Speaker 2: doing the Christian life, regardless of what is going on
Speaker 2: in the culture around them. And to the second question,
Speaker 2: you know, the home I think has just been severely devalued, deconstructed.
Speaker 2: You could even say too, like how would we define
Speaker 2: the household in the modern day. It's it feels more
Speaker 2: like a pit stop than anything else where. Mom and
Speaker 2: dad both working jobs, kids are off at public school,
Speaker 2: and they're just maybe they stop for a quick meal, right,
Speaker 2: and then they just head out to do their own
Speaker 2: thing again. But and the home is just lost its
Speaker 2: ultimate ultimate value, and it's and it's calling, and I
Speaker 2: think that's to our detriment as a society.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, in the way that you're describing
Speaker 1: the warmth of the home in contrast to the dead
Speaker 1: of winter that's surrounding the beavers, it brings to mind
Speaker 1: some of the Germanic imagery of the you know, the
Speaker 1: meat hall in the winter, This idea of the you
Speaker 1: know that the long defeat. He used Tolkien's language, which
Speaker 1: is not terribly different from what Lewis gives us, you know,
Speaker 1: which obviously they're both enamored by the northern spirit. It's
Speaker 1: this idea that you know, you've got the encroaching monsters
Speaker 1: around you, you've got the encroaching death of winter, and
Speaker 1: you know, you very well may expect that in the
Speaker 1: end the winter's going to win out. But as long
Speaker 1: as there is warmth and fellowship to be had in
Speaker 1: the halls, you have an obligation to defend those halls, right,
Speaker 1: to keep them full of merriment, to fan those flames
Speaker 1: of the human good for as long as you possibly can.
Speaker 1: So I definitely see some of that imagery here as well.
Speaker 1: And in the fact that it's not just yeah, go ahead,
Speaker 1: no please, Oh no, I was.
Speaker 2: Just gonna jump in and say, you know, to that
Speaker 2: exact point mister Badger's house and the wind the Willows,
Speaker 2: which I think is a pretty clear inspiration for the
Speaker 2: Beaver's home to a degree. For Lewis, he uses that.
Speaker 2: Graham uses that exact same language of like, it's the
Speaker 2: place Better's home is a place for you know, I'm
Speaker 2: paraphrasing a bit, but you know, warriors to sit, sit
Speaker 2: down and just kind of enjoy each other and revel
Speaker 2: from and rest from battle. That kind of the same language.
Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, yeah, so I mean there, so there it is.
Speaker 1: And I honestly I'm not really familiar with wind the Willows,
Speaker 1: even though I know I should be. But yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's that's good to know that I'm on the right
Speaker 1: track with that. Yeah, I think that is important that
Speaker 1: the difference between you know, a home and merely a
Speaker 1: residence or like a house, you know, the pit stop.
Speaker 1: As you said, so, how do you think we how
Speaker 1: do we go about establishing a beaver like home? I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, even you know, Christians argually have this very
Speaker 1: pragmatic viewpoint at the house. Very you know very often.
Speaker 1: And so how do we go about intentionally cultivating this
Speaker 1: kind of home that you're endorsing for us?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it starts small. It starts as small
Speaker 2: as sitting down to dinner something with that nature. It's ultimately,
Speaker 2: I think you need to maybe understand allegiances. Right, we
Speaker 2: are servants of the King, uh, and we want to
Speaker 2: image him as best as we can. And I spend
Speaker 2: a good deal of time talking about the image of
Speaker 2: God and how ultimately we are two image Him in
Speaker 2: all things, but from being hospitable to you know, men
Speaker 2: acting like men, women acting like women, all of those,
Speaker 2: all those different things. So I think it probably probably
Speaker 2: starts there, like where does our allegiance lie and like,
Speaker 2: you know, submitting ourselves to that ultimately to to to
Speaker 2: the Lord obviously.
Speaker 1: But yeah, now you know when you bring up things
Speaker 1: like men acting like men, women actingct women, I mean
Speaker 1: naturally it's going to bring up you know, knee ourk
Speaker 1: reactions of sexism. And you know, so you think that
Speaker 1: mentions boss women around or like. So, so I mean
Speaker 1: how do you defend it against those obvious assults are
Speaker 1: going to come from our culture?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I knew writing this it was going to be controversial,
Speaker 2: but uh, you know, this is a side of Lewis
Speaker 2: that we don't really hear much about. Either. Maybe it's
Speaker 2: from people they they don't know the side of Lewis,
Speaker 2: or maybe they know it and they just don't agree
Speaker 2: with it. And that's probably a bit of both, and
Speaker 2: just in the culture that we live, as you say,
Speaker 2: in our highly egalitarian culture. This is offensive to many ears,
Speaker 2: but I think it's really important. And so you know,
Speaker 2: I use essays like Membership and Democratic Education and precises
Speaker 2: in the Church where Loose is articuling, articulating his thoughts
Speaker 2: on that exact point, and then I'm kind of I
Speaker 2: am using those essays to help shed light on what's
Speaker 2: going on in the narrative, the language and wardrobe secifically
Speaker 2: with the Beavers, and why their dynamic is the way
Speaker 2: that that it is. And so in those essays, first off,
Speaker 2: Louis does he talks about equality, obviously, and he does
Speaker 2: mention there is an an equality that's necessary in our
Speaker 2: culture where if we didn't have this type of equality,
Speaker 2: then you know, the strong and the rich would prey
Speaker 2: on the poor and the weak. And I'm sure we
Speaker 2: could all you know, cite examples from history of where
Speaker 2: that's actually happened, and so those kinds of guardrails are important,
Speaker 2: but it's that kind of equality is only necessary in
Speaker 2: a fallen world, but it doesn't really get to what
Speaker 2: we're originally designed for. Coming back to ontology, and so, uh,
Speaker 2: Lewis talks about in Membership about kind of stripping off
Speaker 2: that disguise and being able to be who who you
Speaker 2: truly are, who you're truly made to be. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I I totally affirm, you know, traditional male and female
Speaker 2: roles in the book. I think, uh, that's pretty clear
Speaker 2: from from from Urmia that he kind of thought the
Speaker 2: same way. And so like some examples, you know, I
Speaker 2: but the first one that I cite is, you know,
Speaker 2: it's no coincidence that it's mister Beaver who's out he
Speaker 2: was out there in the woods trying to save the
Speaker 2: pepencies and bring them into his home rather than missus Beaver.
Speaker 2: In my sound kind of like, well, why are you
Speaker 2: raising this question to begin with? It seems kind of
Speaker 2: out of place, But I don't think it's out of
Speaker 2: place at all. I think it's a pretty relevant question
Speaker 2: and something that we need to wrestle with ass as
Speaker 2: a culture. Also maybe the charges of sexism or one
Speaker 2: of the arguments that I make in in the book is,
Speaker 2: you know, when we try to diminish or when we
Speaker 2: try to blend the roles together, what what what men
Speaker 2: can do, what women can do, or like what we're
Speaker 2: called to When we blend them together, we're diminishing the
Speaker 2: high calling that the Lord has bestowed on both men
Speaker 2: and women. And so it's totally okay that you know,
Speaker 2: it's uh, it's mister Beaver who who goes and fights
Speaker 2: in the Battle of Aruna at the end of the narrative,
Speaker 2: while after the battle, Missus Beaver is one of those
Speaker 2: who tends and nurtures the wounded after. You know, neither
Speaker 2: task is inferior to the other. I would say, but
Speaker 2: you know, we are ultimately an unsettled people, a discontented people,
Speaker 2: a coutis people, honestly, and you know, we desire the
Speaker 2: glories of others while turning a blind eye to the
Speaker 2: glories placed right in front of us. And one of
Speaker 2: the things that I see from from the Beavers ultimately
Speaker 2: is that they are content in who they're called to be,
Speaker 2: and they execute it and well you know, they play
Speaker 2: a very key role in the coming of the Golden
Speaker 2: Age of Narnia.
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Speaker 1: you on this road that goes ever on. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that is something that you can't avoid that in Lewis,
Speaker 1: even if you tried, and I don't think you should try.
Speaker 1: But you know, even in mere Christianity, right, you spent
Speaker 1: a while talking about the difference between the masculine and
Speaker 1: feminine calling, the calling of males and females, and so
Speaker 1: this is pretty important for Lewis. Obviously we see it
Speaker 1: in Narnio, Obviously we see it in the Ransom series.
Speaker 1: I mean the fact that the whole Ransom series is
Speaker 1: really this dialectic between Mars and Venus, the masculine and
Speaker 1: the feminine, and we see the way that is misrelated
Speaker 1: at the beginning of that hideous strength, but in the
Speaker 1: way it all kind of comes together as part of
Speaker 1: the great dance of the Cosmos. And for Lewis, he's
Speaker 1: very consistent with this that the way that you really
Speaker 1: become yourself is by playing your role in the great dance.
Speaker 1: And what that means is we have to recognize that
Speaker 1: different things are different things, different things have different parts
Speaker 1: to play within that dance. And you know that goes
Speaker 1: all the way up to the outermost edges of the cosmos,
Speaker 1: you know, moving in imitation or in reflection of the
Speaker 1: the glory of God, all the way down to the
Speaker 1: male and female in the home. And that's kind of
Speaker 1: where you end the book discussing that cosmic harmony idea,
Speaker 1: So we'll come back to that. But yeah, the point
Speaker 1: is I entirely agree this is fundamental to Lewis, and
Speaker 1: I think it's fundamental to becoming ourselves to figure out
Speaker 1: kind of who you are in this existence that transcends yourself.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: In addition to there's various essays that you mentioned. Also
Speaker 1: in Screwtape proposes a toast, you know, he addresses this
Speaker 1: idea of like democracy run wild a lot where we
Speaker 1: take the idea or you know, Screwtape and his people
Speaker 1: are gonna take the idea of democracy and try to
Speaker 1: stretch it out to apply to everything, to the point
Speaker 1: where we just flatten everything out until it's nothing. And
Speaker 1: that's stomonic becase it's a way to become nothing. And well,
Speaker 1: God's in the business of making something, and so that
Speaker 1: idea of distinction really is quite important. I think that
Speaker 1: you handle that really well. Now you talk about hospitality
Speaker 1: a good bit, which is obviously mean important part of
Speaker 1: a home. Now you know, I'm an introvert. Does this
Speaker 1: mean I need to have people over every day or like,
Speaker 1: what is hospitality? What's that look like every day?
Speaker 2: Man? No, but I do think it's a It's ultimately
Speaker 2: an important part of the Christian life. You know, we
Speaker 2: aren't meant to do it by by ourselves obviously, right.
Speaker 2: We need a community around us, supporting us, encouraging us,
Speaker 2: keeping us accountable, of course, And it does go back
Speaker 2: to the image of God. You know, we are as
Speaker 2: image bearers recipients of the great hosts hospitality. Right, We're
Speaker 2: welcomed into this world, and so as image bearers we
Speaker 2: should regularly get together with developers for that for that reason,
Speaker 2: to to encourage and equip each other. And coming to
Speaker 2: the story, maybe to the lninglist and the wardrobe, you
Speaker 2: could argue, you know that without hospitality, the whole story
Speaker 2: doesn't really happen. Right, There are multiple basness is I
Speaker 2: could cite, but the for the Beavers, you know, if
Speaker 2: missus Biebers didn't welcome the Pepencys into his home, then
Speaker 2: who knows what would have happened. They would still have
Speaker 2: been stranded in the woods. But you could also go
Speaker 2: go farther back and talk about mister Thomas and him
Speaker 2: welcoming Lucy into his home, to the Great Professor welcoming
Speaker 2: the Pepancy children into his home. I mean, it's all
Speaker 2: over the place, right, and so it's really important to
Speaker 2: be hospitable and to take joy in it as well.
Speaker 2: I think it's easy to think of it as just
Speaker 2: another task to be wayhed down with, and honestly, you know,
Speaker 2: I know I've been guilty of that for sure at times.
Speaker 2: But it's well with the Beaver's. You know, the first
Speaker 2: thing that happens when they get into their home. You know,
Speaker 2: Missus Beaver, she's sewing a line and then she sees
Speaker 2: them and immediately she gets up and welcomes them into
Speaker 2: the home and whist the girls off to make dinner
Speaker 2: while mister Beaver takes the boys out to find the
Speaker 2: fish or fish. And so it's just kind of it's
Speaker 2: very clear for them, it's just a muscle. That's just
Speaker 2: like it's just natural. It's completely natural to them, and
Speaker 2: getting to that point for us, I'm definitely not there yet,
Speaker 2: but I strive to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you know, as you mentioned, that are
Speaker 1: all these examples of where hospitality plays important role, and
Speaker 1: of course, on the inversion of that, you also get
Speaker 1: the faux hospitality of the Witch to Edmund, and so
Speaker 1: you get a counter example of that as well that
Speaker 1: you know both you know, Peter and Gang that you know,
Speaker 1: they're getting drawn in through hospitality ultimately closer to Asland. Right,
Speaker 1: this is the first time they really hear about Asland
Speaker 1: is the home of the Beavers. As they're being drawn
Speaker 1: into this realm of warmth and love and ultimately life
Speaker 1: that is befitting of such an introduction as well as
Speaker 1: you know, Edmund is being invited into the seduction essentially
Speaker 1: of the Witch and she's being you know, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like, you know, Lady Wisdom and Lady Folly here,
Speaker 1: you know, are both offering these invitations to feasts, but
Speaker 1: with very different ends. And so I think that is
Speaker 1: an interesting contrast. Now, once they leave the Beavers, they
Speaker 1: encounter Father Christmas. How do you defend Santa Claus against
Speaker 1: the objections of Lewsis just thrown stuff in there at
Speaker 1: this point.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Honestly, man, when we send you these questions,
Speaker 2: and like, this is the hardest question that you've sent me,
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know what to do with this one. Thankfully,
Speaker 2: you know, there has been some literary criticism from since
Speaker 2: The Lion the w Order was published. I'm thinking of
Speaker 2: one of the better ones for sure on this point
Speaker 2: is Planet Narnia. And so you know, Michael Warre talks
Speaker 2: about Father Christmas being a son of Jupiter, and how
Speaker 2: just that that jovial atmosphere from the Lion Wage and
Speaker 2: the Wardrobe. It makes sense in that respect to have
Speaker 2: Father Christmas in there because he's he's there bestowing gifts
Speaker 2: and it's it gives a kind of personalized nature as
Speaker 2: well to the gift giving because you know, ultimately the
Speaker 2: Linduage and the Wardrobe is about the death of winter
Speaker 2: and the coming of spring. Right the which is winter
Speaker 2: uh being put to death, that the spell is broken
Speaker 2: and in spring comes in the doors that were once
Speaker 2: veiled have now been unveiled. Right That that eschatological language
Speaker 2: right there. And so that in itself is the ultimate gift.
Speaker 2: But having you know, a your give gifts to children
Speaker 2: also just kind of plays a cool It gives a
Speaker 2: cool picture to the whole jovial atmosphere of Jupiter.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And first of all, my first reaction when people
Speaker 1: go at on for this is Lewis is writing a
Speaker 1: fairy tale. First of all, it's not necessarily like high fantasy,
Speaker 1: and I think that allows for more freedom of it's fun.
Speaker 1: But even more profound than that, I think that you're right.
Speaker 1: I think that there's I mean, what better symbol is
Speaker 1: there in the modern mythos, at least of joviality than
Speaker 1: Father Christmas. And you know, in the story, he shows
Speaker 1: up and he symbolizes the fact that time is now
Speaker 1: moving and that we're actually now headed toward Christmas and
Speaker 1: ultimately towards Spring. And so Father Christmas shows up and
Speaker 1: you know, principally what he's doing is he's acting as
Speaker 1: a herald of Aslan. He says that the king is coming,
Speaker 1: Aslan is coming, and so he is the forerunner to Asland,
Speaker 1: who is himself the jovial spirit in the Lion, the
Speaker 1: Witch and the Wardrobe. You know, he is the joy
Speaker 1: that comes after a hard won victory through the winter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what the influence of Joe fundamentally is. And so
Speaker 1: I think that mythologically it works, and also I just
Speaker 1: think it works as fairy tales.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that he's also Lewis put him in
Speaker 2: his proper place too, as a servant of Asland right
Speaker 2: right to you know, the the deification of Santa Claus
Speaker 2: in this day and age. Yeah, I'm a one of
Speaker 2: those people that, you know, I've heard criticisms of, like,
Speaker 2: what the heck, why is King Arthur and Merlin in
Speaker 2: that hideous strength? I'm like, because it's awesome, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The the Ransom series is if you try to
Speaker 1: just summarize the plot to somebody who is not familiar,
Speaker 1: it sounds insane, but it's good and so compelling you
Speaker 1: actually read it. I mean the fact that, okay, you've
Speaker 1: got this philologist who goes to Venus to punch out
Speaker 1: the devil and then he has to come back to
Speaker 1: meet Merlin and you know, become the pen Dragon. It's like,
Speaker 1: it's crazy, it's so good.
Speaker 2: Random. Do you ever think you'll see the Ransom trilogy
Speaker 2: on the screen?
Speaker 1: Oh? I have my hopes. I have my hopes. The
Speaker 1: tricky one would be, uh, how do you film Perilandra?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I guess really convenient camera angles probably, But I certainly
Speaker 1: hope so. I certainly hope so. And that is I'm
Speaker 1: so glad to see a resurgence or a there seems
Speaker 1: to be a popular emphasis on the Ransom series. People
Speaker 1: seem to be discovering it for the first time. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, I just discovered it the first time like
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and it basically became my
Speaker 1: personality for a while. Well, and I just you know,
Speaker 1: the more that I tweeted about it, more I talked
Speaker 1: about it, the more people seem to be jumping into it.
Speaker 1: And there's definitely an excitement there because it's just, I think,
Speaker 1: such an im important story. I mean, simply a good
Speaker 1: story on a storytelling angle, but it's such an important
Speaker 1: story philosophically as a way to re enchant the modern age. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I could go off and range them for a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I definitely. You know, that Book and The
Speaker 2: Abolition of Man, those are the two that you know,
Speaker 2: everyone's talking about nowadays because there's so many parallels. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: but I think that Hideous Strength goes farther, and I
Speaker 2: think Lewis probably agree, just because it is story and
Speaker 2: it is able to circumvent those those maybe those washful
Speaker 2: dragons and other things that kind of bar our way
Speaker 2: from really appreciating a point or a philosophy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, a couple of years ago or
Speaker 1: whenever it was. You know, there's that article coming out
Speaker 1: saying that Lord of the Rings is going to radicalize
Speaker 1: you to the bar right or something. But Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings does nothing to that effect like the Ransom
Speaker 1: Cherries does. When you know, at the end of Out
Speaker 1: of the Silent Planet, Lewis basically comes out and says,
Speaker 1: you know, in his epilogue, by the way, this is real,
Speaker 1: go cast down the demonic scientists. He basic just laced
Speaker 1: it out there, like I'm writing about what's really happening here,
Speaker 1: and so definitely some some radicalizing potential there. And I
Speaker 1: don't know, I mean, we need something to wake us
Speaker 1: up from the just stupor of modern life. You need
Speaker 1: something kind of radical to help you recognize what he's doing.
Speaker 1: What's your favorite Lewis book?
Speaker 2: Silver Chair?
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a good contender. I would say Silver Cherry
Speaker 1: is my favorite narn you book, favorite book overall. I
Speaker 1: have to give it until we have faces fair enough.
Speaker 2: That's that's that's really good. Yeah, that's truly good. It's
Speaker 2: been a couple of years though since I've read it.
Speaker 2: I want to it's probably your fault seeing all your
Speaker 2: tweets about it. I need to return to it again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's this kind of a book you can keep
Speaker 1: returning to and discover new things, because I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: the last novel he got out, and it's the one
Speaker 1: that is most profoundly a myth to the point where
Speaker 1: you know Ransom series. You can read it and as
Speaker 1: long as you have some knowledge of what he's doing,
Speaker 1: it's easy to figure out what he's communicating on the
Speaker 1: ideological level, whereas un till we have faces, it's kind
Speaker 1: of thing you just have to enter into and then
Speaker 1: you walk out of it with something, and there's still
Speaker 1: these fundamental questions regarding exactly what's happening, especially in you know,
Speaker 1: towards the end of the book too, And that's something
Speaker 1: I really appreciate. So it's a little bit more solid,
Speaker 1: it's not quite as transparent. Well is there anything else
Speaker 1: that you wanted to mention or anything else you want
Speaker 1: to talk about?
Speaker 2: Well, we could talk about the the ending, the harmony
Speaker 2: of the cosmos.
Speaker 1: You want to do that, Yeah, yeah, please?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So may maybe to wrap the conversation in about
Speaker 2: at the end of the book, I I talk about
Speaker 2: music in Narnia and how it plays such a big
Speaker 2: role in h in this series as a whole. You know,
Speaker 2: obviously in The Magician's Nephew, which is the sixth book
Speaker 2: of the Chronicles, right, Andrew, That's right, that's right. Definitely
Speaker 2: not the first HarperCollins geez. But yeah, the in The
Speaker 2: Magician's Nephew, Aslam sings Narnia into creation, as you know,
Speaker 2: Degree and Uncle Andrew and Polly and Queen Jadis sees it,
Speaker 2: sees it come into creation, but as as an it
Speaker 2: is creating Narnia. There's this beautiful passage about how the
Speaker 2: stars are singing back to Asla, and it's just this
Speaker 2: beautiful picture of harmony, that creation itself has a voice.
Speaker 1: In your world. It's what a star is. It's not
Speaker 1: what it's what a star is made of. It's not
Speaker 1: what it is, right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, I'm actually I just read that to my
Speaker 2: daughter the other night. We're almost done with The Dawn Treader.
Speaker 2: But just like Melchor's counter melody in The Silm Alien, right,
Speaker 2: there is a disharmony that exists in Narnia, and it's
Speaker 2: really potent, you know. Obviously the Witch's Winter is very
Speaker 2: very potent. The Telmarines disenchanted Narnia is very very powerful
Speaker 2: in a sense, and we're all prey to that kind
Speaker 2: of that kind of thought and that kind of living.
Speaker 2: A big example I use in the chapter is when
Speaker 2: mister Thomas welcomes Lucy into his home and as they're
Speaker 2: they're eating, he then you know, he uses music to
Speaker 2: then enchant her into sleep, and it was an act
Speaker 2: of disharmony with the lion. And you know, thankfully, you know,
Speaker 2: Thomas recognizes that and repents of that sin. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think that's a good thing for us to ponder
Speaker 2: where are we Are we in harmony with the lion
Speaker 2: or are we in disharmony? Are we giving too much
Speaker 2: attention to the dark enchantment of winter and not enough
Speaker 2: attention to the joyous spring that's coming? Right? And so ultimately,
Speaker 2: you know, for my book, it's a it's a prayer
Speaker 2: for for people to start thinking about those little things
Speaker 2: that they can do to fortify their home for the
Speaker 2: growth of that kingdom and to you know, harmonize with
Speaker 2: with the lion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good and I think it's a powerful connection
Speaker 1: between you know, the very fibers of the cosmos, right
Speaker 1: that the song that brings the cosmos into existence, as
Speaker 1: well as the harmony we have that we bring about
Speaker 1: in our own home and even just with ourselves connected
Speaker 1: to the broader scene. I guess I'd be careful and
Speaker 1: talk about harmony with ourselves. That sounds kind of postmodern,
Speaker 1: but you know, the inner harmony as a microcosm of
Speaker 1: the world that actually is above and beyond ourselves, and
Speaker 1: that it's when we recognize that hierarchy that's intrinsic in
Speaker 1: existence itself, that we actually find the pathway to meaning.
Speaker 1: And you know, if we're going to take the hyperd
Speaker 1: democratic route and destroy all hierarchy as such, we're actually
Speaker 1: destroying our very pathway to happiness, to joy, to meaning.
Speaker 1: We're forsaking, you know, the calling of you know, Tor
Speaker 1: and Perilandra to content ourselves in our littleness and to
Speaker 1: just receive and to be glad. But when we're constantly
Speaker 1: trying to create rather than simply receive, well we're kind
Speaker 1: of lost in the Nietzschean abyss of no clear direction
Speaker 1: to And so yeah, I'm really just echoing what you
Speaker 1: said that there's just so much freedom in finding your
Speaker 1: place rather than trying to create it out of nothing,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what it means to bear the
Speaker 1: image of God. We're called to reflect, not fundamentally to create.
Speaker 1: So good anything else that you want to decide, I.
Speaker 2: Don't think so. I don't think so.
Speaker 1: All right, well good, and so I definitely appreciate you
Speaker 1: coming back. Everyone go out and buy his book A
Speaker 1: Joyful Outpost, and we'll have to do this again some
Speaker 1: time and maybe talks about the Lewis or something else.
Speaker 1: So thanks again for popping in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: Absolutely I hope that you enjoyed that conversation, and again,
Speaker 1: remember to pick up A Joyful Outpost. And if you're
Speaker 1: listening to this through the podcast, then you can find
Speaker 1: a link in the show notes and of course that
Speaker 1: is my book recommendation for you this time. Also, if
Speaker 1: you want for me to be able to keep producing
Speaker 1: content like this and to keep having conversations like this
Speaker 1: on a regular basis, ideally I would love to get
Speaker 1: to a place where I can do a fresh, full
Speaker 1: episode every week for you. But if you want that
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Speaker 1: Fellowship podcast. Oh and whether you become a patron or not,
Speaker 1: be sure to check out the Mythic Mind Fellowship podcast
Speaker 1: and subscribe to that one as well. Over there, we're
Speaker 1: currently working our way through the Norse poetic Eda, which
Speaker 1: is just really a lot of fun, whether you read
Speaker 1: the edit yourself or you just listen to our conversation.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of fun with it, and I
Speaker 1: think that you probably will as well, and so you
Speaker 1: can listen to that whether you become a patron or not.
Speaker 1: But that's it for now and until next time, godspeed,