WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.599 Step into the world of power, loyalty, and luck. 2 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.240 I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse. 3 00:00:07.320 --> 00:00:12.199 We're family, Canoli's and spins mean everything. Now you want 4 00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:15.560 to get mixed up in the family business. Introducing the 5 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:19.719 Godfather at chumpacasino dot com. Test your luck in the 6 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:22.039 shadowy world at the Godfather Slough. 7 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:25.079 Someday I will call upon you to do a service 8 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:25.359 for me. 9 00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:28.320 Play the Godfather now at chumpacasino dot com. 10 00:00:28.359 --> 00:00:31.559 Welcome to the family vdW group. No purchase necessary. If 11 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:33.759 we were bribited by loss he terms and conditions eighteen plus. 12 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:38.479 Judy was boring Hello, Then Judy discovered chumpacasino dot com. 13 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:40.079 It's my little escape. 14 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:41.799 Now Judy's the life of the party. 15 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:43.960 Oh baby Mama is bringing home the bacon. 16 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:48.240 WHOA, Take it easy, Judy, jump the CHUMPA life is 17 00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:51.280 for everybody. So go to chumpacasino dot com and play 18 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:54.280 over one hundred casino style games. Join today and play 19 00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:57.200 for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices. 20 00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:01.799 Jump chumpacasino dot com. Overtas necessary. Quid what lookd atmar 21 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:04.239 em lass terms condition to plying se what secret details. 22 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:14.680 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 23 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:17.799 Killers in true crime History and the authors that have 24 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:25.120 written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 25 00:01:25.239 --> 00:01:28.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:33.159 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 27 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.400 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 28 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:50.879 Aaron Moriarty, a CBS News journalist for three decades, has 29 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:54.840 been a correspondent on forty eight Hours since nineteen ninety. 30 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:58.879 In addition to reporting for forty eight Hours, Moriarty's work 31 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:03.159 is featured on all CBS News broadcasts and platforms, including 32 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:08.560 CBS Sunday Morning, CBS Mornings, and the CBS News streaming network. 33 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:14.319 Her reporting has earned Moriarty virtually every major journalism award available. 34 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:19.919 Aaron Moriarty's award winning original true crime podcast, My Life 35 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:24.120 of Crime, returns for a fourth season. The captivating and 36 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:27.479 thrilling podcasts from CBS News Audio and forty eight Hours, 37 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:32.439 is available on all podcast platforms, with new episodes released 38 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:37.039 every Wednesday. Moriarty takes you inside true crime investigations like 39 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:41.560 no one else, taking on killers and those accused of crimes. 40 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:45.039 In this fourth season, she delves into the labyrinth of 41 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:48.599 crime within families and the secrets that kept them together 42 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.319 or tore them apart. Moriarty brings almost three decades of 43 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:56.800 experience as a lawyer and reporter involved in murder cases, 44 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:01.120 and she brushes past the speculation to the evidence and 45 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:05.759 talk to the people directly involved, including investigators and the 46 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:10.800 families of victims. Aaron Moriarty joins me now to discuss 47 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:14.080 the fourth season of our original true crime podcast, My 48 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.520 Life of Crime. Welcome to the program, and thank you 49 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.759 very much for this interview Aaron Moriarty. 50 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:21.680 And it's great being here. 51 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:22.000 Dan. 52 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:26.000 You are a forty eight Hours correspondent and your original 53 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:29.599 true crime podcast, My Life of Crime, returns for a 54 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:33.719 fourth season. Tell our audience more about the production of 55 00:03:33.800 --> 00:03:37.560 the podcast and what ingredients are included to create this 56 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:39.719 unique podcast experience. 57 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.879 Well, Dan, some people would wonder why I need to 58 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.639 do a podcast since I cover trials and I cover 59 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:51.800 crime regularly for forty eight hours, But I don't get 60 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:55.039 to talk about all the ins and outs and some 61 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:59.680 of the backstories, or even some of the feelings that 62 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:03.000 we have when we're covering these stories, and so the 63 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:06.719 podcast allows me to do it. The other advantage I 64 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:10.000 have of being a forty eight hours correspondent is it 65 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.120 gives me the ability to go into prisons, to talk 66 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.360 to the district attorneys in these cases, to talk to 67 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.959 the victims sometimes and often to talk to the defendants. 68 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:23.920 And I want to be able to share that because 69 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:28.199 not very many people get to talk to the people involved. 70 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:32.639 We all follow these crimes. There are certain kind of 71 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:39.480 crimes that just capture every American's imagination. Sometimes it's fear 72 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:43.560 or sometimes just fascination. But I usually get to talk 73 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:46.600 directly to the people, and I can take listeners with me, 74 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:50.879 and I think that's kind of the experience of the podcast. 75 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:56.240 You'll hear directly from the victims as I'm speaking with them. 76 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:01.639 You here directly, in many cases from the defendant. Sometimes 77 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.120 we know that person is a killer, and so it 78 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:10.000 really takes you inside the crime and inside the case 79 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:12.560 in a way not everybody can do. 80 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.480 Now, you have three other seasons, but in this fourth season, 81 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:20.600 what is the focus that you have for this fourth season? 82 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:24.000 Well, we were thinking that when we're covering trials, the 83 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:27.240 ones that get to us the most, the ones that 84 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.959 stay in our heads the most, are ones that involve 85 00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:34.040 family members. You know, we think family members, you know, 86 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:36.800 there's a closeness, you know, why would you kill someone 87 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.040 in your family? And so we decided we would take 88 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:45.120 a look at how sometimes secrets within families cause people 89 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:49.040 to do things they would never do. These are in 90 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:51.920 the cases we're looking at in this fourth season. These 91 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:57.079 are people who are by all accounts, normal people. Give 92 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.399 you an example. There's a young man in Wisconsin. He 93 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:04.720 was an athlete, a good student, had absolutely no part 94 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:10.040 problems with his family. But he had some problems while 95 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.000 he was in college, and he fell behind and he 96 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.240 flunked out, and for some reason he couldn't face his parents. 97 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:19.480 So what does he do? 98 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.519 He kills them and then chumps them up. I mean, 99 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:27.480 that is so out of character for this young man. 100 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.800 And so why we did this story really is to 101 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.800 try to get what would make a normal person, a 102 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:38.399 person who by all accounts is is leading a regular life, 103 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.519 do some kind of extraordinarily violent act. 104 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:47.519 We don't always get the answers, but we certainly analyze 105 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:48.120 the cases. 106 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:51.720 What are some of the other story titles, Not to 107 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:54.600 expand on them as of yet, but what are some 108 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:57.879 of the other titles that appear in season four. 109 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.079 Well, I think one of my favor cases, if you 110 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:04.680 could call it favorite, it is the Twisted Twins. Now 111 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.959 in part I should warn you, Dan, I'm a twist 112 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:11.360 and so I think I found the story fascinating and 113 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:15.920 it made me do a lot of thull thirteen. Would 114 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:19.720 I commit a crime to help my twin? I don't 115 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:24.759 think so. And in this case, you have two identical twins. 116 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:27.879 They are so much alike, they work in the same place, 117 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:32.800 they look alike, they're best friends. And when one decides 118 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:36.480 he needs to commit a murder, the other one, who 119 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.240 did not want to do it, but said, well, he'll 120 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.560 get caught unless I helped, I'd better help, which was 121 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:45.399 interesting to me. I don't quite know I would be 122 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:47.800 able to do that. And then they set out to 123 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:52.199 commit the perfect murder. And they watch crime shows. They 124 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:55.519 probably watched forty eight hours. They watch Dateline, they watch 125 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:58.240 all kinds of crime shows to see if they could 126 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.920 determine a way to come knit a crime without getting caught. 127 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.399 And that's what really made the story fascinating, because they 128 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:11.079 almost did pull off the perfect crime. But it was 129 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:17.879 in fact the differences in all human beings, including identical twins, 130 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.160 that trip them up. And so it's a really interesting 131 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.759 case about how they commit the act. And also, you know, 132 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:29.959 one thing I try not to do is just focus 133 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:34.799 on the killer. As interesting as these twins are, the investigators, 134 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:38.639 particularly this da who was determined. 135 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:40.559 To bring them to justice. Scott's story. 136 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:44.200 I had actually gotten the case from him when I 137 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.000 was at an event and he was there and he said, 138 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:52.080 there are two twins, they're twins in my county who 139 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:54.279 committed a murder. I know they did, and I'm going 140 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:56.879 to get them. And I listened to a story and 141 00:08:56.960 --> 00:08:59.320 I said, I don't know. I don't think you're going 142 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:01.399 to be able to bring to trial. And so he 143 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.799 called me when he was taking them to trial, and 144 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.240 I got on the story that way. He's justice interesting, 145 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.320 if not more interesting, because for ten years he tracked 146 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:16.639 these guys, wow, ten years to try to get them 147 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:17.960 to trial, and. 148 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:19.039 He pulled it off. 149 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:19.639 Credible. 150 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.960 Yes, those are the kinds of cases that I like 151 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:26.639 to follow that make you interested in both the perch 152 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:31.840 and the prosecutors and the detectives to catch them. 153 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:35.399 You have one of the episodes, well, you have many episodes. 154 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:38.759 Pretending to Marry to Death is a title with ray 155 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:42.720 Ella Leith. You also talk about the secrets that these 156 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:46.000 families that tore apart the families or kept them together. 157 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:48.559 Like you said, the two twins for so many years 158 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.559 had that alliance, that they had that common bond that 159 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.919 kept the secret and almost got away with murder. Can 160 00:09:56.960 --> 00:09:58.840 you talk a little bit about married to death? 161 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:03.840 Well, marriage is case that we just we've never seen 162 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:04.519 anything like this. 163 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:11.159 This is a very proper, very elegant woman in Knoxville, Tennessee, 164 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:15.879 who was suspected killing two husbands. A lot of people 165 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:20.320 referred to her as the black widow. And even if 166 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:23.840 you believe this man, she tried to kill. 167 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:25.279 Him, he was the husband. 168 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:30.279 Get this of the woman that Raynell's league husband was 169 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:32.799 having a fair one grow and she tried to cheer 170 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.879 it in. And then she got to hear the whole 171 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:39.879 case because if she's guilty, she gets away with it all. 172 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:43.960 And how she gets away with it is fascinating. We 173 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.759 couldn't get enough the case. I'll just give you this 174 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:51.759 as a hint. I sall sign it a trial both 175 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:54.639 my producer and I that i'd never ever seen before 176 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:59.039 and ever seen since. Something that happened at trial and 177 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:02.679 that's how Raynello Le gets away with it, and it's 178 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:09.200 the most interesting, fascinating and surprising story that I think 179 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.080 I've ever covered in a courtroom. 180 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:15.519 It's interesting too that you get with your incredible access 181 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.279 from all your years of experience, but also as your 182 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.639 background as an attorney and also a journalist and broadcaster 183 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:26.799 for many years, when you get to interview jurors is 184 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.840 very interesting. You point out, tell us what this incredible 185 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:34.120 unique background that you have, what it does for you 186 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:37.799 in terms of informing your perspective in this podcast. 187 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:41.080 Well, I do think that it helps me. 188 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:44.360 I think as a lawyer, it helps the pinpoint the 189 00:11:44.440 --> 00:11:49.360 cases that have really interesting legal issues that people may 190 00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:52.200 not be familiar with. Because I also think our job 191 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:58.000 as podcasters is educate everyone about when the system works 192 00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.039 when it doesn't work. Back in my mind, I feel 193 00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:03.639 that one of the reasons why I think it's great 194 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:07.360 that True Crime has a following is that we are 195 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.399 making better jurors. The more you understand the system, the 196 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.399 more you've seen cases, the more you realize when it 197 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:17.399 works when it doesn't, the better juror you are if 198 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.679 you're called. And I really do believe that that's the 199 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.759 impact we have that people today are more discerning. They 200 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:29.279 don't automatically believe what the prosecutor says. They actually are 201 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.240 open to the idea that maybe somebody who has been 202 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:36.720 charged with the crime is innocent. When I first started 203 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.519 doing these cases, and I started back in the late 204 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:43.639 nineteen nineties, it was surely after OJ Simpson's case I 205 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:47.720 covered that. That's when DNA was introduced for the first 206 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:51.240 time as evidence in a high profile case, and it 207 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:54.960 was introduced in that case to prove that OJ Simpson 208 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:58.639 had done it. What really DNA has now been used 209 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.919 is to show when they have the wrong person in prison. 210 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:07.159 And we've learned so much since then, since the middle 211 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:12.799 nineteen nineties, about why people are wrongfully convicted. And so 212 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:17.159 to me, the OJ Simpson trial in two things. It 213 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.440 got people very interested in crimes. People watched that member 214 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:24.919 that trial went almost a year. People would watch every 215 00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.960 single day. It got them really interested in the case, 216 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:31.919 and it made them realize when it works and when 217 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:32.759 it doesn't work. 218 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:37.120 And that really got me started as a lawyer and. 219 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:42.320 A journalist into really examining these cases, I think with 220 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:48.120 a different lens, not as entertainment, but really how important 221 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:52.399 it is. I believe that many people are watching forty 222 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:56.840 eight hours in Dateline and listening to podcasts because I 223 00:13:57.000 --> 00:13:59.559 think people have a lot of fear in their life, 224 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.360 and when they see a case and they see the 225 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:07.960 good investigations and they see people determined to get justice 226 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:12.320 or victims, it gives them hope. It gives them faith 227 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.200 in the system. And I think that is what happens 228 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:17.759 most of the time. The cases though, and I know 229 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:21.440 you've looked at this like the Stephen Avery case, that 230 00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:26.480 troubles people because, as you have pointed out in your podcast, 231 00:14:26.960 --> 00:14:29.399 depending on how much information. 232 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:33.759 You get from a particular podcast or for a show, you. 233 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:36.679 Might believe one way and then you hear information that 234 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:38.399 was kept and you think a different way. 235 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.480 I tried very hard not to do that. 236 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:44.039 I give you the wards and all, because I think 237 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:48.600 that's I think that's why sometimes the system fails. You know, 238 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:52.159 you have evidence that points one way, you have evidence 239 00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:55.519 of points another, and the jury has to make a decision, 240 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:57.320 and the jury doesn't always get it right. 241 00:14:57.559 --> 00:15:00.519 I think you're absolutely right with the education part of 242 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:04.840 the podcasting and what has done reaching a bigger audience, 243 00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:08.080 but educating them as well, well, I found very interesting 244 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:11.480 with your fourth seasons. A lot of the episodes was 245 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:15.399 the twists that we always use that as an expression 246 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:17.320 that there was twists in turns, but there are very 247 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:21.919 many surprises and surprises that discerning people will see that 248 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.360 sometimes people look very very guilty when we don't have 249 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:27.519 all of the information. 250 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.759 Dan, I deal with one now, and I'm very honest 251 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:33.240 with the listeners. 252 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:36.720 There's one that I have covered for the last year 253 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.840 and a half and the defendant was convicted, but in 254 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:45.600 my god, I'm so troubled by it, and I share 255 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:49.200 that with the listeners because I know he's convicted, and 256 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:52.519 I could argue he should have been convicted. There's evidence 257 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.279 that definitely points to them, but there's a lot of 258 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.480 evidence that that makes you say, no way, this guy 259 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.320 could have done it. And so I'm very honest with 260 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.159 it with the audience. I'm honest that he's convicted, honest 261 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:10.639 why he's convicted. But I also share with the listeners 262 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:14.879 that I'm troubled by it and I don't really know 263 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:17.960 what the answer is that. I mean, you know, I 264 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.000 just want people, when they look at any case, to 265 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:27.320 not just take the verdict as the end and there 266 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:31.639 are some cases where jury's just might not get it right. 267 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.639 You know what I find from covering so many of 268 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.879 these trials, it really comes down to who tells the 269 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.960 best story at the end. Is it the prosecution or 270 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:45.279 the defense? And I think jurors need a story. I 271 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.000 think they need to have all the different pieces of 272 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:56.120 evidence come together in a clear, concise, understandable and believable story. 273 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.759 So when the prosecutor does that and the defense just says, no, 274 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:05.039 there isn't enough evidence, you know it's there should be 275 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:07.799 reasonable doubt. I'll tell you nine times out of ten 276 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:11.880 that jury is going to convict. And I now believe 277 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:14.480 that to have a fair trial, you've got to have 278 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.119 good stories on both sides. It doesn't matter that the 279 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:22.279 defense doesn't have the burden to prove someone's innocent, but 280 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:27.880 you better have another story to contend with the prosecutions, 281 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:33.079 because if the prosecution tells it clear, well told story, 282 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.160 that person's likely to be convicted. I mean I see 283 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.039 it time and time again. I hate to put it 284 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.319 in those simple terms. Tells a story. I think people 285 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:46.119 think if they present the evidence, but in fact, the 286 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:49.640 prosecution is telling a story and the defense has to 287 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:50.720 tell a story. 288 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:53.559 Too, tell us the story of just a little bit, 289 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.880 and again, don't give it all away, but a broken heart. 290 00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:58.559 Who killed Linda Kaufman? 291 00:17:58.720 --> 00:17:59.319 For example? 292 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.400 Oh that one Lena. Yes, Oh my gosh, Lena Kauffman. 293 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.240 That is such a that was a tough story. That 294 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.279 is a great, great story to tell, because I'll tell 295 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.599 you just how the prosecution saw it. Woman found in 296 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:17.720 her bathroom by her husband. She has marks all over 297 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.200 her neck. But you know, so he's charged with first 298 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:24.880 to grade murder even though when they look there's nobody's 299 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:25.599 having affairs. 300 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:29.319 There's no problem with the marriage, right, And that is 301 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.880 why I decided again, this is a Lena. 302 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.160 Lena's heart is very similar to what I'm telling you 303 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:40.640 about the Prow's in it case in season four, because 304 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.079 my I just thought, why would this guy kill this 305 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:47.400 beautiful woman when he's not having an affairs, She's not 306 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:50.079 having an affair by all account of the marriage is 307 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:54.759 great And in that case, that's a perfect example. In 308 00:18:54.960 --> 00:19:00.279 that case, the defense tells a really great story to 309 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:04.680 match the prosecutions and worked out for the defense. 310 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:06.279 I wasn't sure. 311 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:11.359 I mean, I really believed that he couldn't have done it. 312 00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.680 I know that she had marks on her neck, but 313 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:19.759 we'll explain exactly how she got them. It's an interesting case, 314 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:23.240 and it's scary to think that if he had not 315 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.000 had enough money to hire good lawyers, he might have 316 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:30.400 been committed. It's a great case, and those are the 317 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:32.799 kinds of cases I love. And in that case, I 318 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.480 hired my own medical examiner to take a look at 319 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:41.799 the same evidence the prosecution was because we really wanted to. 320 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:43.000 Know what happened to Lena. 321 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.920 And I think at the end of the story, you 322 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.640 will know and you will feel confident. 323 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:52.880 That's one thing I like. And I think I want people. 324 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:55.880 I want them to know if I don't know the answer, 325 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:01.160 that it probably isn't easily as her that no one 326 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:03.640 knew really the answer, right, But I want them to 327 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:07.880 state that I've at least told them every part of 328 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:10.759 that story so that they can make the decision on 329 00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:12.839 their own, even if I'm troubled by it. 330 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.880 Maybe they're not, and that's good. 331 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:19.079 I just don't want to leave out something to have 332 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:20.599 people think the same way I do. 333 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.680 I want people to make a decision by themselves. 334 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.160 In this season four, you write that it includes a 335 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:31.480 teenager convicted of murdering her own mother. Also a husband 336 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.279 who said he discovered his wife with an axe in 337 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:39.240 her head. And also a Baptist preacher accused of staging 338 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:43.039 his wife's suicide. And a story called loss of legend 339 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:48.039 over the boxing legend Arturo Gotti? Was it murder or suicide? 340 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:51.119 Can you just give us a little brief teaser of 341 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:52.640 some of these stories? 342 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:57.240 Well, like ar Trurogatti, anyone who was a fan of 343 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:02.480 boxing and followed boxing, I mean, was champion and he 344 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:05.599 ended up at at a very young age when he 345 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:11.240 was in Brazil with his very young wife, not beloved 346 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:14.400 by his family, and for a while she was charged 347 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:18.640 with murder and then they brought charges but the family 348 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:22.039 too believing that she was involved. 349 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:24.079 And that's the story there. 350 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:28.839 That's a really interesting story, and we follow it all 351 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.920 the way through and they prows in a case that's 352 00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:34.440 the one with the axe in That is the one 353 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:38.319 where I struggle with and I share with the listeners 354 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:42.720 exactly why I struggle with that case. And you hear 355 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.480 all the evidence good and bad for the husband who 356 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:50.599 says he did not put an X in his wife's head. 357 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.440 And we have the case of a young woman very 358 00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:57.759 by all accounts clothes with her mother, who's then accused 359 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:01.079 of killing her mother, and not just killing her mother, 360 00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:02.079 was found. 361 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:05.599 With a butter knife and her eye. Yeah. So again 362 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:06.839 I go back to Dan. 363 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:11.519 These cases of people who seem to be perfectly normal, 364 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:15.720 They don't have any history of psychotogy, or they don't 365 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:20.279 seem to be sociopaths, and yet when based with a challenge, 366 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:23.960 instead of dealing with it the way most people do, 367 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:28.480 they commit murder. And I find that to be endlessly 368 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.039 interesting and scary at the same time. 369 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:33.680 Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear 370 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.880 from our sponsor. Have you ever had to cancel out 371 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.799 on a planned social event because you were feeling bloated 372 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:44.240 and wouldn't be comfortable in anything but sweatpants. It happens 373 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:48.160 to a lot of people. Ritual literally created symbolic plus 374 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.000 with that type of problem in mind. It contains clinically 375 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:57.079 studied probotics, probotics and a post biotic to support a 376 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.920 balance gut microbiome. If Lisa and I first chose ritual 377 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:06.440 multivitamins because of the important research they had conducted, and 378 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.200 now we've added ritual Symbodic Plus to our daily routine. 379 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.920 Why include a post biotic It provides fuel to the 380 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.519 cells that make up the gut lining and supports a 381 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:22.279 healthy gut barrier. Win win. It has a delayed release 382 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.680 capsule designed to help survive the harsh conditions of the 383 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:29.799 upper gi track for delivery to the colon, an ideal 384 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.799 place for probotics to grow and thrive. And it's all 385 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:39.160 in one single nested minty capsule. No refrigeration needed, so 386 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:42.799 it's easy to take with you when you travel. Symbodic 387 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:47.000 Plus and Ritual are here to celebrate, not hide your insides. 388 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:51.079 There's no more shame in your gut game. That's why 389 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:54.400 Ritual is offering my listeners thirty percent off during your 390 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:58.599 first month. Visit ritual dot com slash murder to start 391 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:03.799 Ritual or add Simba Plus to your subscription today. Now 392 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.680 continuing with just some of the stories that up here. 393 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:09.400 In the fourth season, we talked a little bit about 394 00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:13.640 what you titled Preacher's Secret The Duplicity of Matt Baker. 395 00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:16.920 Can you just give us a little teaser on what 396 00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:19.319 occurs in the Preacher's Secrets? 397 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:21.920 Well, I stayed on that story a long time. I 398 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:24.119 shouldn't tell you, Dan, how we got on it. We 399 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:29.680 actually heard from Matt Baker's defense attorney. Matt had been 400 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:36.000 accused of killing his beautiful young wife, drugging her, and 401 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:40.400