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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in true crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 2: Aaron Moriarty, a CBS News journalist for three decades, has
Speaker 2: been a correspondent on forty eight Hours since nineteen ninety.
Speaker 2: In addition to reporting for forty eight Hours, Moriarty's work
Speaker 2: is featured on all CBS News broadcasts and platforms, including
Speaker 2: CBS Sunday Morning, CBS Mornings, and the CBS News streaming network.
Speaker 2: Her reporting has earned Moriarty virtually every major journalism award available.
Speaker 2: Aaron Moriarty's award winning original true crime podcast, My Life
Speaker 2: of Crime, returns for a fourth season. The captivating and
Speaker 2: thrilling podcasts from CBS News Audio and forty eight Hours,
Speaker 2: is available on all podcast platforms, with new episodes released
Speaker 2: every Wednesday. Moriarty takes you inside true crime investigations like
Speaker 2: no one else, taking on killers and those accused of crimes.
Speaker 2: In this fourth season, she delves into the labyrinth of
Speaker 2: crime within families and the secrets that kept them together
Speaker 2: or tore them apart. Moriarty brings almost three decades of
Speaker 2: experience as a lawyer and reporter involved in murder cases,
Speaker 2: and she brushes past the speculation to the evidence and
Speaker 2: talk to the people directly involved, including investigators and the
Speaker 2: families of victims. Aaron Moriarty joins me now to discuss
Speaker 2: the fourth season of our original true crime podcast, My
Speaker 2: Life of Crime. Welcome to the program, and thank you
Speaker 2: very much for this interview Aaron Moriarty.
Speaker 3: And it's great being here.
Speaker 1: Dan.
Speaker 2: You are a forty eight Hours correspondent and your original
Speaker 2: true crime podcast, My Life of Crime, returns for a
Speaker 2: fourth season. Tell our audience more about the production of
Speaker 2: the podcast and what ingredients are included to create this
Speaker 2: unique podcast experience.
Speaker 6: Well, Dan, some people would wonder why I need to
Speaker 6: do a podcast since I cover trials and I cover
Speaker 6: crime regularly for forty eight hours, But I don't get
Speaker 6: to talk about all the ins and outs and some
Speaker 6: of the backstories, or even some of the feelings that
Speaker 6: we have when we're covering these stories, and so the
Speaker 6: podcast allows me to do it. The other advantage I
Speaker 6: have of being a forty eight hours correspondent is it
Speaker 6: gives me the ability to go into prisons, to talk
Speaker 6: to the district attorneys in these cases, to talk to
Speaker 6: the victims sometimes and often to talk to the defendants.
Speaker 6: And I want to be able to share that because
Speaker 6: not very many people get to talk to the people involved.
Speaker 6: We all follow these crimes. There are certain kind of
Speaker 6: crimes that just capture every American's imagination. Sometimes it's fear
Speaker 6: or sometimes just fascination. But I usually get to talk
Speaker 6: directly to the people, and I can take listeners with me,
Speaker 6: and I think that's kind of the experience of the podcast.
Speaker 6: You'll hear directly from the victims as I'm speaking with them.
Speaker 6: You here directly, in many cases from the defendant. Sometimes
Speaker 6: we know that person is a killer, and so it
Speaker 6: really takes you inside the crime and inside the case
Speaker 6: in a way not everybody can do.
Speaker 2: Now, you have three other seasons, but in this fourth season,
Speaker 2: what is the focus that you have for this fourth season?
Speaker 6: Well, we were thinking that when we're covering trials, the
Speaker 6: ones that get to us the most, the ones that
Speaker 6: stay in our heads the most, are ones that involve
Speaker 6: family members. You know, we think family members, you know,
Speaker 6: there's a closeness, you know, why would you kill someone
Speaker 6: in your family? And so we decided we would take
Speaker 6: a look at how sometimes secrets within families cause people
Speaker 6: to do things they would never do. These are in
Speaker 6: the cases we're looking at in this fourth season. These
Speaker 6: are people who are by all accounts, normal people. Give
Speaker 6: you an example. There's a young man in Wisconsin. He
Speaker 6: was an athlete, a good student, had absolutely no part
Speaker 6: problems with his family. But he had some problems while
Speaker 6: he was in college, and he fell behind and he
Speaker 6: flunked out, and for some reason he couldn't face his parents.
Speaker 3: So what does he do?
Speaker 6: He kills them and then chumps them up. I mean,
Speaker 6: that is so out of character for this young man.
Speaker 6: And so why we did this story really is to
Speaker 6: try to get what would make a normal person, a
Speaker 6: person who by all accounts is is leading a regular life,
Speaker 6: do some kind of extraordinarily violent act.
Speaker 3: We don't always get the answers, but we certainly analyze
Speaker 3: the cases.
Speaker 2: What are some of the other story titles, Not to
Speaker 2: expand on them as of yet, but what are some
Speaker 2: of the other titles that appear in season four.
Speaker 6: Well, I think one of my favor cases, if you
Speaker 6: could call it favorite, it is the Twisted Twins. Now
Speaker 6: in part I should warn you, Dan, I'm a twist
Speaker 6: and so I think I found the story fascinating and
Speaker 6: it made me do a lot of thull thirteen. Would
Speaker 6: I commit a crime to help my twin? I don't
Speaker 6: think so. And in this case, you have two identical twins.
Speaker 6: They are so much alike, they work in the same place,
Speaker 6: they look alike, they're best friends. And when one decides
Speaker 6: he needs to commit a murder, the other one, who
Speaker 6: did not want to do it, but said, well, he'll
Speaker 6: get caught unless I helped, I'd better help, which was
Speaker 6: interesting to me. I don't quite know I would be
Speaker 6: able to do that. And then they set out to
Speaker 6: commit the perfect murder. And they watch crime shows. They
Speaker 6: probably watched forty eight hours. They watch Dateline, they watch
Speaker 6: all kinds of crime shows to see if they could
Speaker 6: determine a way to come knit a crime without getting caught.
Speaker 6: And that's what really made the story fascinating, because they
Speaker 6: almost did pull off the perfect crime. But it was
Speaker 6: in fact the differences in all human beings, including identical twins,
Speaker 6: that trip them up. And so it's a really interesting
Speaker 6: case about how they commit the act. And also, you know,
Speaker 6: one thing I try not to do is just focus
Speaker 6: on the killer. As interesting as these twins are, the investigators,
Speaker 6: particularly this da who was determined.
Speaker 3: To bring them to justice. Scott's story.
Speaker 6: I had actually gotten the case from him when I
Speaker 6: was at an event and he was there and he said,
Speaker 6: there are two twins, they're twins in my county who
Speaker 6: committed a murder. I know they did, and I'm going
Speaker 6: to get them. And I listened to a story and
Speaker 6: I said, I don't know. I don't think you're going
Speaker 6: to be able to bring to trial. And so he
Speaker 6: called me when he was taking them to trial, and
Speaker 6: I got on the story that way. He's justice interesting,
Speaker 6: if not more interesting, because for ten years he tracked
Speaker 6: these guys, wow, ten years to try to get them
Speaker 6: to trial, and.
Speaker 3: He pulled it off.
Speaker 5: Credible.
Speaker 6: Yes, those are the kinds of cases that I like
Speaker 6: to follow that make you interested in both the perch
Speaker 6: and the prosecutors and the detectives to catch them.
Speaker 2: You have one of the episodes, well, you have many episodes.
Speaker 2: Pretending to Marry to Death is a title with ray
Speaker 2: Ella Leith. You also talk about the secrets that these
Speaker 2: families that tore apart the families or kept them together.
Speaker 2: Like you said, the two twins for so many years
Speaker 2: had that alliance, that they had that common bond that
Speaker 2: kept the secret and almost got away with murder. Can
Speaker 2: you talk a little bit about married to death?
Speaker 3: Well, marriage is case that we just we've never seen
Speaker 3: anything like this.
Speaker 6: This is a very proper, very elegant woman in Knoxville, Tennessee,
Speaker 6: who was suspected killing two husbands. A lot of people
Speaker 6: referred to her as the black widow. And even if
Speaker 6: you believe this man, she tried to kill.
Speaker 3: Him, he was the husband.
Speaker 6: Get this of the woman that Raynell's league husband was
Speaker 6: having a fair one grow and she tried to cheer
Speaker 6: it in. And then she got to hear the whole
Speaker 6: case because if she's guilty, she gets away with it all.
Speaker 6: And how she gets away with it is fascinating. We
Speaker 6: couldn't get enough the case. I'll just give you this
Speaker 6: as a hint. I sall sign it a trial both
Speaker 6: my producer and I that i'd never ever seen before
Speaker 6: and ever seen since. Something that happened at trial and
Speaker 6: that's how Raynello Le gets away with it, and it's
Speaker 6: the most interesting, fascinating and surprising story that I think
Speaker 6: I've ever covered in a courtroom.
Speaker 2: It's interesting too that you get with your incredible access
Speaker 2: from all your years of experience, but also as your
Speaker 2: background as an attorney and also a journalist and broadcaster
Speaker 2: for many years, when you get to interview jurors is
Speaker 2: very interesting. You point out, tell us what this incredible
Speaker 2: unique background that you have, what it does for you
Speaker 2: in terms of informing your perspective in this podcast.
Speaker 3: Well, I do think that it helps me.
Speaker 6: I think as a lawyer, it helps the pinpoint the
Speaker 6: cases that have really interesting legal issues that people may
Speaker 6: not be familiar with. Because I also think our job
Speaker 6: as podcasters is educate everyone about when the system works
Speaker 6: when it doesn't work. Back in my mind, I feel
Speaker 6: that one of the reasons why I think it's great
Speaker 6: that True Crime has a following is that we are
Speaker 6: making better jurors. The more you understand the system, the
Speaker 6: more you've seen cases, the more you realize when it
Speaker 6: works when it doesn't, the better juror you are if
Speaker 6: you're called. And I really do believe that that's the
Speaker 6: impact we have that people today are more discerning. They
Speaker 6: don't automatically believe what the prosecutor says. They actually are
Speaker 6: open to the idea that maybe somebody who has been
Speaker 6: charged with the crime is innocent. When I first started
Speaker 6: doing these cases, and I started back in the late
Speaker 6: nineteen nineties, it was surely after OJ Simpson's case I
Speaker 6: covered that. That's when DNA was introduced for the first
Speaker 6: time as evidence in a high profile case, and it
Speaker 6: was introduced in that case to prove that OJ Simpson
Speaker 6: had done it. What really DNA has now been used
Speaker 6: is to show when they have the wrong person in prison.
Speaker 6: And we've learned so much since then, since the middle
Speaker 6: nineteen nineties, about why people are wrongfully convicted. And so
Speaker 6: to me, the OJ Simpson trial in two things. It
Speaker 6: got people very interested in crimes. People watched that member
Speaker 6: that trial went almost a year. People would watch every
Speaker 6: single day. It got them really interested in the case,
Speaker 6: and it made them realize when it works and when
Speaker 6: it doesn't work.
Speaker 3: And that really got me started as a lawyer and.
Speaker 6: A journalist into really examining these cases, I think with
Speaker 6: a different lens, not as entertainment, but really how important
Speaker 6: it is. I believe that many people are watching forty
Speaker 6: eight hours in Dateline and listening to podcasts because I
Speaker 6: think people have a lot of fear in their life,
Speaker 6: and when they see a case and they see the
Speaker 6: good investigations and they see people determined to get justice
Speaker 6: or victims, it gives them hope. It gives them faith
Speaker 6: in the system. And I think that is what happens
Speaker 6: most of the time. The cases though, and I know
Speaker 6: you've looked at this like the Stephen Avery case, that
Speaker 6: troubles people because, as you have pointed out in your podcast,
Speaker 6: depending on how much information.
Speaker 3: You get from a particular podcast or for a show, you.
Speaker 6: Might believe one way and then you hear information that
Speaker 6: was kept and you think a different way.
Speaker 3: I tried very hard not to do that.
Speaker 6: I give you the wards and all, because I think
Speaker 6: that's I think that's why sometimes the system fails. You know,
Speaker 6: you have evidence that points one way, you have evidence
Speaker 6: of points another, and the jury has to make a decision,
Speaker 6: and the jury doesn't always get it right.
Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right with the education part of
Speaker 2: the podcasting and what has done reaching a bigger audience,
Speaker 2: but educating them as well, well, I found very interesting
Speaker 2: with your fourth seasons. A lot of the episodes was
Speaker 2: the twists that we always use that as an expression
Speaker 2: that there was twists in turns, but there are very
Speaker 2: many surprises and surprises that discerning people will see that
Speaker 2: sometimes people look very very guilty when we don't have
Speaker 2: all of the information.
Speaker 3: Dan, I deal with one now, and I'm very honest
Speaker 3: with the listeners.
Speaker 6: There's one that I have covered for the last year
Speaker 6: and a half and the defendant was convicted, but in
Speaker 6: my god, I'm so troubled by it, and I share
Speaker 6: that with the listeners because I know he's convicted, and
Speaker 6: I could argue he should have been convicted. There's evidence
Speaker 6: that definitely points to them, but there's a lot of
Speaker 6: evidence that that makes you say, no way, this guy
Speaker 6: could have done it. And so I'm very honest with
Speaker 6: it with the audience. I'm honest that he's convicted, honest
Speaker 6: why he's convicted. But I also share with the listeners
Speaker 6: that I'm troubled by it and I don't really know
Speaker 6: what the answer is that. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 6: just want people, when they look at any case, to
Speaker 6: not just take the verdict as the end and there
Speaker 6: are some cases where jury's just might not get it right.
Speaker 6: You know what I find from covering so many of
Speaker 6: these trials, it really comes down to who tells the
Speaker 6: best story at the end. Is it the prosecution or
Speaker 6: the defense? And I think jurors need a story. I
Speaker 6: think they need to have all the different pieces of
Speaker 6: evidence come together in a clear, concise, understandable and believable story.
Speaker 6: So when the prosecutor does that and the defense just says, no,
Speaker 6: there isn't enough evidence, you know it's there should be
Speaker 6: reasonable doubt. I'll tell you nine times out of ten
Speaker 6: that jury is going to convict. And I now believe
Speaker 6: that to have a fair trial, you've got to have
Speaker 6: good stories on both sides. It doesn't matter that the
Speaker 6: defense doesn't have the burden to prove someone's innocent, but
Speaker 6: you better have another story to contend with the prosecutions,
Speaker 6: because if the prosecution tells it clear, well told story,
Speaker 6: that person's likely to be convicted. I mean I see
Speaker 6: it time and time again. I hate to put it
Speaker 6: in those simple terms. Tells a story. I think people
Speaker 6: think if they present the evidence, but in fact, the
Speaker 6: prosecution is telling a story and the defense has to
Speaker 6: tell a story.
Speaker 2: Too, tell us the story of just a little bit,
Speaker 2: and again, don't give it all away, but a broken heart.
Speaker 2: Who killed Linda Kaufman?
Speaker 5: For example?
Speaker 6: Oh that one Lena. Yes, Oh my gosh, Lena Kauffman.
Speaker 6: That is such a that was a tough story. That
Speaker 6: is a great, great story to tell, because I'll tell
Speaker 6: you just how the prosecution saw it. Woman found in
Speaker 6: her bathroom by her husband. She has marks all over
Speaker 6: her neck. But you know, so he's charged with first
Speaker 6: to grade murder even though when they look there's nobody's
Speaker 6: having affairs.
Speaker 3: There's no problem with the marriage, right, And that is
Speaker 3: why I decided again, this is a Lena.
Speaker 6: Lena's heart is very similar to what I'm telling you
Speaker 6: about the Prow's in it case in season four, because
Speaker 6: my I just thought, why would this guy kill this
Speaker 6: beautiful woman when he's not having an affairs, She's not
Speaker 6: having an affair by all account of the marriage is
Speaker 6: great And in that case, that's a perfect example. In
Speaker 6: that case, the defense tells a really great story to
Speaker 6: match the prosecutions and worked out for the defense.
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure.
Speaker 6: I mean, I really believed that he couldn't have done it.
Speaker 6: I know that she had marks on her neck, but
Speaker 6: we'll explain exactly how she got them. It's an interesting case,
Speaker 6: and it's scary to think that if he had not
Speaker 6: had enough money to hire good lawyers, he might have
Speaker 6: been committed. It's a great case, and those are the
Speaker 6: kinds of cases I love. And in that case, I
Speaker 6: hired my own medical examiner to take a look at
Speaker 6: the same evidence the prosecution was because we really wanted to.
Speaker 3: Know what happened to Lena.
Speaker 6: And I think at the end of the story, you
Speaker 6: will know and you will feel confident.
Speaker 3: That's one thing I like. And I think I want people.
Speaker 6: I want them to know if I don't know the answer,
Speaker 6: that it probably isn't easily as her that no one
Speaker 6: knew really the answer, right, But I want them to
Speaker 6: state that I've at least told them every part of
Speaker 6: that story so that they can make the decision on
Speaker 6: their own, even if I'm troubled by it.
Speaker 3: Maybe they're not, and that's good.
Speaker 6: I just don't want to leave out something to have
Speaker 6: people think the same way I do.
Speaker 3: I want people to make a decision by themselves.
Speaker 2: In this season four, you write that it includes a
Speaker 2: teenager convicted of murdering her own mother. Also a husband
Speaker 2: who said he discovered his wife with an axe in
Speaker 2: her head. And also a Baptist preacher accused of staging
Speaker 2: his wife's suicide. And a story called loss of legend
Speaker 2: over the boxing legend Arturo Gotti? Was it murder or suicide?
Speaker 2: Can you just give us a little brief teaser of
Speaker 2: some of these stories?
Speaker 6: Well, like ar Trurogatti, anyone who was a fan of
Speaker 6: boxing and followed boxing, I mean, was champion and he
Speaker 6: ended up at at a very young age when he
Speaker 6: was in Brazil with his very young wife, not beloved
Speaker 6: by his family, and for a while she was charged
Speaker 6: with murder and then they brought charges but the family
Speaker 6: too believing that she was involved.
Speaker 3: And that's the story there.
Speaker 6: That's a really interesting story, and we follow it all
Speaker 6: the way through and they prows in a case that's
Speaker 6: the one with the axe in That is the one
Speaker 6: where I struggle with and I share with the listeners
Speaker 6: exactly why I struggle with that case. And you hear
Speaker 6: all the evidence good and bad for the husband who
Speaker 6: says he did not put an X in his wife's head.
Speaker 6: And we have the case of a young woman very
Speaker 6: by all accounts clothes with her mother, who's then accused
Speaker 6: of killing her mother, and not just killing her mother,
Speaker 6: was found.
Speaker 3: With a butter knife and her eye. Yeah. So again
Speaker 3: I go back to Dan.
Speaker 6: These cases of people who seem to be perfectly normal,
Speaker 6: They don't have any history of psychotogy, or they don't
Speaker 6: seem to be sociopaths, and yet when based with a challenge,
Speaker 6: instead of dealing with it the way most people do,
Speaker 6: they commit murder. And I find that to be endlessly
Speaker 6: interesting and scary at the same time.
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Speaker 2: continuing with just some of the stories that up here.
Speaker 2: In the fourth season, we talked a little bit about
Speaker 2: what you titled Preacher's Secret The Duplicity of Matt Baker.
Speaker 2: Can you just give us a little teaser on what
Speaker 2: occurs in the Preacher's Secrets?
Speaker 6: Well, I stayed on that story a long time. I
Speaker 6: shouldn't tell you, Dan, how we got on it. We
Speaker 6: actually heard from Matt Baker's defense attorney. Matt had been
Speaker 6: accused of killing his beautiful young wife, drugging her, and
Speaker 6: then pretending that she committed suicide. There was a tight
Speaker 6: suicide note, and he the attorney, Matt Baker's attorney, this
Speaker 6: wonderful Texas attorney. Defense attorney asked us to cover it
Speaker 6: because he believed his client was innocent. So I sat down.
Speaker 6: First person I interviewed was Matt Baker, and I believe
Speaker 6: that he probably was going to be innocent because why
Speaker 6: would the defense attorney allow me to talk to him first?
Speaker 3: So okay, fine, I interview him. But he's a little
Speaker 3: bit strange.
Speaker 6: But sometimes people accuse of crime are strange, that's why
Speaker 6: they're charged. So it didn't really bother me until I
Speaker 6: started doing research. And then suddenly I started realizing, I
Speaker 6: think this guy did it.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 6: And I was with my producer and we broke to Texas.
Speaker 6: We drove his tiny down in Texas and spoke with
Speaker 6: the defense attorney and said, we got to be honest
Speaker 6: with you. We're not going to do this as a
Speaker 6: wrongful conviction. Wrongful accusation. You know, he may have done it,
Speaker 6: So we're going to just do this right down the middle.
Speaker 6: And we stayed on this case, and we stayed on it.
Speaker 6: So first he was charged, then the state prop charges,
Speaker 6: and then new evidence came up and the state reinstated charges,
Speaker 6: and Matt Baker went on trial.
Speaker 3: And so I believe I did three.
Speaker 6: Different on that and two different podcasts because it's it
Speaker 6: is quite a legal epic, I would say, or saga.
Speaker 3: It was a legal saga, up and down, did he
Speaker 3: do it? Did he not?
Speaker 6: There was so much new evidence that came the longer
Speaker 6: we stayed on the story, and I went to see
Speaker 6: him both in jail.
Speaker 3: And in prison.
Speaker 6: I sat through his trial. So there's a lot to tell.
Speaker 6: We have called it different names. We've called it the
Speaker 6: Preacher's Wife, the Preacher's Secrets.
Speaker 3: It was quite a saga.
Speaker 2: We spoke just before this interview about the fourth season
Speaker 2: and an exciting story for you and why it's exciting
Speaker 2: for you. You can tell our audience with about Barbara
Speaker 2: Ray Venner and genetic genealogy and the Golden State Killer.
Speaker 6: Well, I love this story because I actually didn't start
Speaker 6: the podcast basically saying I think I'm going to tell
Speaker 6: you something you haven't heard, which is very exciting for
Speaker 6: any reporter to be able to say, I know something
Speaker 6: you might not know, and that is that I think
Speaker 6: we've all heard about the Golden State Killer, a man
Speaker 6: who for about a period of twelve years, you know,
Speaker 6: would commit these terrible crimes, rapes and murders, and then
Speaker 6: he just disappeared.
Speaker 3: And no one knew who he was.
Speaker 6: And you had the FBI, you had say police all
Speaker 6: through this, because he went up and down the state
Speaker 6: of California committing these crimes and then just disappeared, and
Speaker 6: you know, there were people who were determined to find it.
Speaker 6: And so we heard about because she's writing a book
Speaker 6: this year, a woman by the name of Barbara ray Venor,
Speaker 6: and how she got involved was there was a detective
Speaker 6: in Sam Bernardino who asked her. So, Barbara Rayvenor is
Speaker 6: an expert at genetic genealogy. He's put her own family
Speaker 6: tree together. He and she was also what they call
Speaker 6: a search angel. He would help adoptees find their biological parents.
Speaker 6: So she could put together anybody's family tree, and she
Speaker 6: did it in one criminal case in Sam Bernardino involving
Speaker 6: what they call a living Jane Dell, a young woman
Speaker 6: who was alive, but no one knew who she was,
Speaker 6: and so they asked Barbara ray Vener, and this was
Speaker 6: in California, Sam Bernardino, so they asked her to identify
Speaker 6: this young woman find her family, and Barbara did by
Speaker 6: making a family tree, and everybody start hearing about that
Speaker 6: in California. So they came to her in twenty sixteen
Speaker 6: and said, could you do this for the Golden Stake killer.
Speaker 6: She didn't start on it right away. She really didn't
Speaker 6: start on until twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3: It took her. I asked her.
Speaker 6: I said to her, you know there were FBI agents,
Speaker 6: there were state police, there were county sheriffs working this
Speaker 6: case for years. Why did you think you could do
Speaker 6: something that they didn't? And she goes, because I knew
Speaker 6: the DNA would work, and they had never used DNA.
Speaker 3: In the past.
Speaker 6: And so sure enough she's working on it. She puts
Speaker 6: together the family tree of this unknown killer who had
Speaker 6: you know, by using there was DNA left at some
Speaker 6: crime scenes, and the investigators uploaded it to jetmatch, which
Speaker 6: is one of the public databases, and I think it's
Speaker 6: family tree.
Speaker 3: DNA was the other.
Speaker 6: One, and it took her sixty three days and then
Speaker 6: she said to me, and it was three o'clock in
Speaker 6: the morning, and I looked and I said, I know
Speaker 6: who you are. And I said to her at that moment,
Speaker 6: where you the only one in the world who knew
Speaker 6: who the Golden State killer was? And she goes, yes,
Speaker 6: well he knew as well, and sure enough, so of
Speaker 6: course they didn't take her word for it, because you can't, right,
Speaker 6: she said, she had to wait ten days because what
Speaker 6: they did then, so this is where real investigative detective
Speaker 6: work was needed. They started following the suspect that she
Speaker 6: had named, and they followed him inside a store and
Speaker 6: they got DNA off the door handle, but they didn't
Speaker 6: think that would be enough, so they followed him a
Speaker 6: little bit more and he finally dropped a cup and
Speaker 6: they took that cup, and they took the DNA that
Speaker 6: had been on his door handle, and it matched the
Speaker 6: person that she said it was going to be, James
Speaker 6: Joseph D'Angelo. And sure enough, in spring of twenty eighteen,
Speaker 6: arrested James Joseph Dangelo and they had to go and
Speaker 6: stay killer. So she didn't do it alone alone. They
Speaker 6: had to verify, they had to get his DNA. But
Speaker 6: for that one moment in time, at three o'clock in
Speaker 6: the morning, he was the only person who knew who
Speaker 6: the Golden Stake killer was.
Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, that's a fantastic story, incredible in
Speaker 2: all your years reporting. It's also and it was for
Speaker 2: me as well, just to see this victory for law enforcement,
Speaker 2: as I said to you previously, just as such a
Speaker 2: great story, so many people involved, with so many ordinary
Speaker 2: people involved, and then a great story for law enforcement
Speaker 2: in the arrest and conviction and just getting to the
Speaker 2: root of this incredible murder mystery that had elapsed so
Speaker 2: many years, almost forty years. You also have a story
Speaker 2: called the Snapchat tip Off, and it just, I guess
Speaker 2: it exemplifies the differences and the developments in forensic evidence gathering,
Speaker 2: and DNA is right at the top of those advances.
Speaker 2: But just what forensic evidence is doing and the changes
Speaker 2: in forensic evidence gathering and the Snapchat tip off story.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit more about this?
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, you really you hit on the head
Speaker 6: one of the I guess determining factors when I pick
Speaker 6: a story, is is there some incredible forensic tool or
Speaker 6: technology that I haven't seen before that other people could
Speaker 6: benefit from seeing. And in that case, boy, these were
Speaker 6: two detectives, county detectives who really had to try to
Speaker 6: find this couple, these two people who are missing, and
Speaker 6: they use really amazing technology including so they believed that
Speaker 6: the couple's son might have been involved, but they couldn't
Speaker 6: prove it. They had no way, There was no evidence
Speaker 6: inside the house, nothing for them to even get a
Speaker 6: search for it initially. But it turns out that this
Speaker 6: young man was not always the most faithful boyfriend, and
Speaker 6: so his girlfriend had insisted that he allowed her to
Speaker 6: follow his whereabouts.
Speaker 3: On snackchat, and she had become worried about him.
Speaker 6: One morning, is parents were missing, and she was worried
Speaker 6: about him, and she looked at the snapchat when she
Speaker 6: was just you know, snapchat doesn't always stay on your phone,
Speaker 6: It disappears. But she looked down and she saw that
Speaker 6: he was about twenty five miles away from where he
Speaker 6: said it was, and she was worried about him.
Speaker 3: His parents are missing, He's not acting right.
Speaker 6: So she takes a screenshot of that not, you know,
Speaker 6: thinking anything of it, but she wants to ask him
Speaker 6: about it later. Well, it turns out though, when they
Speaker 6: bring the sun in, they they're wondering, is he involved
Speaker 6: with his parents' disappearance. They bring him in and they
Speaker 6: bring her in. At the same time. He doesn't know,
Speaker 6: you know, she's thinking, oh, he couldn't have possibly have
Speaker 6: had anything to do with his parents' disappearance. So they said,
Speaker 6: can we take your phone?
Speaker 3: And she said true.
Speaker 6: So they took her phone and they see that screenshot
Speaker 6: and the time and it's right right the day after
Speaker 6: his parents were disappearing, and he's twenty five miles away,
Speaker 6: right near the Wisconsin River. And these cops say, wow,
Speaker 6: let's go there, and they did, and they found some
Speaker 6: evidence of his mother, and that broke the case.
Speaker 3: That was using their phone.
Speaker 6: The information was on the phone, and knowing that that
Speaker 6: greenshot of his whereabouts at that time was an important
Speaker 6: clue and that wouldn't have happened obviously years before without
Speaker 6: the phone, you know, there was no evidence to connect
Speaker 6: this young man to his parents' disappearance, you know, unless
Speaker 6: he had confessed, or unless they found the bodies a
Speaker 6: different way a case might have gone cold, but there
Speaker 6: was that evidence on his girlfriend's phone, and he had
Speaker 6: been so careful, but he allowed her to track him
Speaker 6: down because he had not been so faithful in the past,
Speaker 6: and she had talked him into it. So even the
Speaker 6: smart killers who think they've thought of everything, don't usually
Speaker 6: think of everything.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about a teenager convicted of murdering her own mother.
Speaker 3: Well, that's a sad one.
Speaker 6: That's a really sad one because when you do research,
Speaker 6: which I did, daughter's killing mothers, even kids killing parents
Speaker 6: is unusual. It's I think it comes out to about
Speaker 6: two percent of all murders. It's unusual. You know, you
Speaker 6: have problems with your parents, your parents have problems.
Speaker 3: With you, but you don't usually kill them.
Speaker 6: But when a daughter kills mother, it's usually, according to
Speaker 6: some of the research, in complex relationships, where the mother
Speaker 6: and daughter are really tied together emotionally, but one wants out.
Speaker 6: And I don't understand exactly why murder seems to be
Speaker 6: the only way, but yes, and when I actually interviewed
Speaker 6: that young woman and in the podcast you will you
Speaker 6: will hear from her. She was seventeen years of age
Speaker 6: when her mother disappeared. She was nineteen when I interviewed her,
Speaker 6: and she was sticking with her story even then she
Speaker 6: didn't do it, even though there was overwhelming evidence that
Speaker 6: she was involved in some way. And that is the
Speaker 6: kind of story where you listen just because it's just
Speaker 6: you have to wrap your mind about.
Speaker 3: It, you know, you just you know she's not a
Speaker 3: serial killer.
Speaker 6: What made her take such a drastic step with someone
Speaker 6: that she did love, that she did need. And that's
Speaker 6: why that case kind of sticks in my animal stick
Speaker 6: in yours as well.
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Speaker 2: Now, you have another story called The Long Con with
Speaker 2: Clark Rockefeller as the subject of that episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was that was actually a murderer. He was,
Speaker 3: but he was also just a con man.
Speaker 6: And what's so interesting about that story was how long
Speaker 6: he pulled off a con and on how many people.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Now, sadly two of the people that he pulled the
Speaker 6: con on ended up debt and that is what he
Speaker 6: was charged with. But most of the people he just
Speaker 6: stole money or he just and he turned himself into
Speaker 6: so many different characters and the fun part of doing
Speaker 6: that story, if fun is the right word. So anyone
Speaker 6: who watches forty eight hours knows that we often ask
Speaker 6: people to introduce themselves. I am you know, I'm so
Speaker 6: and so a prosecutor, and so and so the mother
Speaker 6: of the victim or something like that. And so it
Speaker 6: occurred to me, since this man had so many different names,
Speaker 6: I would ask him to introduce himself. And that is
Speaker 6: actually a funny moment because I catch him off guard
Speaker 6: and he doesn't know what to answer, and he trips
Speaker 6: all over himself and he'll go, well, everyone knows who
Speaker 6: I am, and I'll go, no, no, no, they don't.
Speaker 3: So who are you? What is your name?
Speaker 6: And he just because of course, he was telling me
Speaker 6: he was Clark Rockefeller to the end he said he
Speaker 6: was Clark Rockefeller, and in fact he's not. He was
Speaker 6: a young German man who dreamed about going to the
Speaker 6: United States, and he was a wonderful mimic and he
Speaker 6: could put on absents at a drop of a hat.
Speaker 6: He is just the case of somebody who is smart
Speaker 6: and thinks that he can con everybody, right, and sadly
Speaker 6: he's sitting in prison. I don't think he's conning very
Speaker 6: many other cons right.
Speaker 2: Tell us a couple more stories that are featured in
Speaker 2: the fourth season of My Life of Crime.
Speaker 6: Well, we do a number of different cases. As I mentioned,
Speaker 6: we do a young woman who is accused of killing
Speaker 6: her mother. We're also taking a look at a young
Speaker 6: man who was accused of killing his parents. It happened
Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety and he had very wealthy parents, and
Speaker 6: everybody believed he did it, and that's how I kind
Speaker 6: of started the podcast. But in fact, that's what the
Speaker 6: police thought, and that's what local news thought because the
Speaker 6: police told them.
Speaker 3: It was true.
Speaker 6: But the real story was really the story of men
Speaker 6: career Criminals was of bepoart of a seventeen year old
Speaker 6: kid who was framed by his thought, well we think
Speaker 6: by his father's business partner. And so that's quite a
Speaker 6: tale and we tell that in season four as well.
Speaker 2: Any cases that people hadn't heard of that we are
Speaker 2: covered in the fourth season.
Speaker 6: Well, that's an interesting question. I think most of the ones,
Speaker 6: I do a few people. There'll be some people who know,
Speaker 6: like in that community. But I think even if you
Speaker 6: know about the case that we're telling, we're going to
Speaker 6: give you more information about the case. And I think
Speaker 6: I mean, especially with when we did the marriage to Death,
Speaker 6: we spent we really went into the backstory that people
Speaker 6: had heard. If they heard about the trial, they did
Speaker 6: not know about Renella Lease's background and her a couple
Speaker 6: of husbands, and her the accusation of trying to shoot friend.
Speaker 6: So even if you think you know a case, I'm
Speaker 6: hoping that you'll stay all the way to the end
Speaker 6: of the podcast because you'll learn more than you knew before.
Speaker 6: At least that's what I try to do. You know,
Speaker 6: when you've been doing this as long as I've been
Speaker 6: doing this, I want to. I want to educate myself.
Speaker 6: I want to know more, I want to get to
Speaker 6: the bottom of it, and I think that people listening
Speaker 6: feel the same way.
Speaker 2: Do you think crimes are different today and if so,
Speaker 2: what way? But definitely crime reporting is different. You've seen
Speaker 2: all the changes and this My Life of Crime is
Speaker 2: a testament to those changes. What are the ingredients in
Speaker 2: my Life of Crime that give it this unique perspective
Speaker 2: besides your own unique perspective from being in an attorney
Speaker 2: and a journalist and a broadcaster for so many years,
Speaker 2: What are the ingredients that are in this unique podcast?
Speaker 6: Well, first thing, I do think that crime reporting has changed,
Speaker 6: and the interest in crimes has changed now because you
Speaker 6: can go into a court when you couldn't do that
Speaker 6: really prior to the Menandez Brothers or OJ Simpson. Now
Speaker 6: you know, we have these trials that are streamed so
Speaker 6: you can actually sit in the courtroom, and so people
Speaker 6: become really interested in it. And I think that's really
Speaker 6: what we kind of offer. We kind of have the
Speaker 6: currated a view of a trial, so you get to
Speaker 6: hear from the actual participants, the defendants, the prosecutors, the
Speaker 6: victim's family, sometimes just reporters. We talked to other reporters
Speaker 6: covering it, so you actually get to hear directly from
Speaker 6: those people, but kind of in a curated way so
Speaker 6: that you understand what's going on. Is so that it's
Speaker 6: not sometimes when you go into trial and you see
Speaker 6: a medical examiner on the stand and they're just talking
Speaker 6: about what they found in an autopsy. That's one thing,
Speaker 6: but we try to put that in perspective. Why did
Speaker 6: that matter in this case? Why did that lead to
Speaker 6: either a charge of murder or the person was not charged,
Speaker 6: or why looking at that person instead of the husband
Speaker 6: or another suspect. So I think what has changed is
Speaker 6: that we can now go inside the courtroom. We can
Speaker 6: now talk to everybody in just about every state. People
Speaker 6: can talk once a person's been convicted, we can get
Speaker 6: a hold of the evidence as long as it was
Speaker 6: introduced to trial. It is public information, and so we
Speaker 6: can get all of that and then put it together
Speaker 6: in a clear, very honest, journalistic way.
Speaker 3: It's not entertainment.
Speaker 6: It is news the way we do it, and people
Speaker 6: get a look into a case the way they never
Speaker 6: have before. I do know there's an interest wherever I go.
Speaker 6: People even when I'm working. I do stories for CBS
Speaker 6: Sunday Morning, which I love, but it will be people
Speaker 6: coming up, Oh my God, tell me about this case,
Speaker 6: what happened in that case. It's crime that people most
Speaker 6: often approach me and want to hear my take on something.
Speaker 2: Well, you've done an admirable job of raising these stories
Speaker 2: that were once dismissed as not being certainly not involving
Speaker 2: anyone high profile in terms of the killer or the victim,
Speaker 2: but taking these what some people might think we're too
Speaker 2: ordinary a story, highlighting those very very interesting and unique aspects,
Speaker 2: and raising the story up to the level of national
Speaker 2: and international attention brought to it.
Speaker 6: Well, I think that everybody has I mean, I think
Speaker 6: every single person involved in a trial, and I know
Speaker 6: you will think the same thing. These are extraordinary circumstances,
Speaker 6: and sometimes people act very heroically under those circumstances and
Speaker 6: fight to get justice for the victim or the victim's family,
Speaker 6: or they so heroically. Either way, these are interesting stories,
Speaker 6: whether you know that person's name or not.
Speaker 3: I'd rather not do the high profile case.
Speaker 6: I mean, sometimes cases has just become high profile, like
Speaker 6: Gabby Petito, the young woman who goes off on a
Speaker 6: adventure with her boyfriend and then disappears. And because again
Speaker 6: we had video and we had bloggers who were so
Speaker 6: interested in finding out what happened to Gabby, that became
Speaker 6: a national story. But these were just two normal kids
Speaker 6: who both ended up in tragedy. That story just broke
Speaker 6: my heart and I thought it was worth following because
Speaker 6: that almost could happen to anybody.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I think he panicked.
Speaker 6: I think the cops did not do the best job
Speaker 6: they could and discerning whether there was violence going on,
Speaker 6: and it was a tragedy all the way around. So
Speaker 6: I think these stories, whether you've heard these people's names
Speaker 6: or not, there are very interesting stories to tell. If
Speaker 6: not the individuals, then the forensics used to solve the crime,
Speaker 6: or the prosecutor who is taking this case as far
Speaker 6: as he or she can go, or the police officer
Speaker 6: who doesn't give up just because there isn't enough evidence
Speaker 6: to bring a person to justice.
Speaker 3: Those that's what makes the stories great.
Speaker 2: And there is some at least conclusion to these stories
Speaker 2: in terms of all of the reporting that you do
Speaker 2: with these stories and these episodes, because you have handled
Speaker 2: all kinds of high profile crimes. But many remain a mystery,
Speaker 2: like John Benny Ramsay, you say, the ongoing story of
Speaker 2: Robert Durst, or even the controversial case of Brooks Schuyler Richardson.
Speaker 2: So there is a difference in these episodes in terms
Speaker 2: of conclusions compared to some things.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think the Robert Durst case is pretty settled
Speaker 6: and most people's had even though death allowed him to
Speaker 6: escape any kind of conviction. I find that's so ironic.
Speaker 6: They worked so hard to convict that man, they finally
Speaker 6: convict him, and then he dies and escapes conviction because
Speaker 6: he didn't get a chance at an appeal. I found
Speaker 6: that to be an amazing ironic. But you're right in
Speaker 6: some cases, you know, with the John Binay Ramsey. I
Speaker 6: struggle with that one, and I keep hoping that again,
Speaker 6: when we're talking about genetic genealogy, the Barbara Ray vendors
Speaker 6: of this.
Speaker 3: World, and somebody's done it. There is DNA in this case.
Speaker 6: I don't understand yet why I know there's DNA in
Speaker 6: that case, And I don't understand why there hasn't been
Speaker 6: made a kind of profile that could be put into
Speaker 6: these public databases. You know, it's back in the hands
Speaker 6: of the Boulder Police and maybe someday we will know.
Speaker 6: But yes, that's one case that should be resolved, one
Speaker 6: case that without question, it's only fair to either the
Speaker 6: you know, the brother who was painted by it.
Speaker 3: Let's put that.
Speaker 6: DNA allow a genetic genealogists to go as far as
Speaker 6: that person can and find out who killed Jombin and ramsay,
Speaker 6: it will never be too late, but we should have
Speaker 6: the answer to that.
Speaker 2: It would be an extraordinary victory for law enforcement. But
Speaker 2: also if there ever were a believable confession, I'm sure
Speaker 2: the world would want to hear what that was.
Speaker 6: But you know, there have been confessions in the past
Speaker 6: and they weren't credible.
Speaker 3: You know, there was a.
Speaker 6: Person that everyone bob was actually the killer and sure,
Speaker 6: and he was a predator of type.
Speaker 3: But I mean that's the hard part. It's I think
Speaker 3: you need science.
Speaker 6: Nobody will know for sure until you have science, and
Speaker 6: genetic genealogy is probably that's loosest. Yes, that we would
Speaker 6: come to having some answer, some name that people could
Speaker 6: believe in. You know, I would have a hard time
Speaker 6: even now with a confession unless there was evidence to
Speaker 6: corroborate that confession. Of course, you know, that's the hard part,
Speaker 6: so I keep hoping that's going to happen. Genetic genealogy
Speaker 6: is really a breakthrough, yes, for crime solving, and it's
Speaker 6: very exciting.
Speaker 2: Well, it's also a breakthrough DNA in and in itself
Speaker 2: in that when there were convictions and even people executions,
Speaker 2: but certainly murder convictions that were now overturned wrongful convictions
Speaker 2: with the work of DNA and then now genetic genealogy.
Speaker 2: But DNA itself is a godsend, and it also unfortunately
Speaker 2: or fortunately put a proper perspective on some of the
Speaker 2: other forensic sciences and their use and credibility in the courtroom.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, really what DNA to me, the best part about
Speaker 6: DNA is not only did it show that some people
Speaker 6: were wrongfully convicted, but it showed why.
Speaker 3: So we had had faith in eyewitness testimony.
Speaker 6: I think most people thought, if you're frightened, that face
Speaker 6: is going to be imprinted on your memory, and in
Speaker 6: fact it what's the exact opposite, and the largest reason
Speaker 6: for wrongful convictions is faulty eyewitness testimony, eyewitness identification, and everyone.
Speaker 3: Had faith in it.
Speaker 6: One quarter of the people who are exonerated with DNA
Speaker 6: one quarter confessed to it, so they confess to saying
Speaker 6: it didn't do So now we know people can be
Speaker 6: coerce and just saying that they committed a murder they
Speaker 6: didn't and that's.
Speaker 3: Because of DNA.
Speaker 6: And so to me, DNA has not only just shown
Speaker 6: us who might have been wrongfully convicted, but it shows
Speaker 6: why and that allows us to try to prevent it
Speaker 6: in the future.
Speaker 3: That's exciting to.
Speaker 2: Me, absolutely really is. I want to thank you so
Speaker 2: much Aaron Moriarty for coming on and talking about your
Speaker 2: season four of your podcast My Life of Crime forty
Speaker 2: eight hours and CBS as presenting. Can you tell us
Speaker 2: where people be able to listen to My Life of Crime?
Speaker 6: Well you can, of course wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 6: All you have to look up for is My Life
Speaker 6: of Crime with Aaron Moriarty, or you can always just
Speaker 6: google it. It will pop up My Life of Crime
Speaker 6: with Aaron Moriarty.
Speaker 3: Dan, it is a.
Speaker 6: Privilege to be able to be here with you, so
Speaker 6: I really appreciate being able to talk about crime with you.
Speaker 2: It has been a big thrill for me and an honor.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much Aaron Moriarty for coming on and
Speaker 2: talking about your hit podcast, My Life of Crime. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for this interview, and you have a
Speaker 2: great evening, and good night, good night.