WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:05.160 Oh hey, it's your friend's new boyfriend who makes really 2 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:07.839 good onion dip ali Ward. Come along with me if 3 00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:11.960 you will to Anaheim, California, to little place called wonder Con. Now, 4 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:14.800 if you have heard of the annual Comic Con convention 5 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:17.320 in San Diego, wonder Con is kind of like its younger, 6 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:21.120 scrappier little sister, and it takes over Anaheim for a 7 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:24.160 few days every spring, with like tens of thousands of 8 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:27.679 people in this big convention center full of booths and 9 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:31.480 comic book art and film stalls and collectibles and artists 10 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:36.560 like making and signing work. Also adults and capes. Join me, 11 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:39.439 all right, we're in front of the fountain at wonder Con. 12 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:44.560 So far, we've seen a Loki. I've seen a Westworld lady. Oh, 13 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:48.159 there's a one own a writer from Beetlejuice costume in 14 00:00:48.200 --> 00:00:52.719 the red the wedding outfit. Oh, with a Beetlejuice accompaniment. 15 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:56.320 We've got a lot of Pokemons. We've got some Star 16 00:00:56.399 --> 00:00:59.640 Trek outfits, plenty of those. That's a Captain America, but 17 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:00.640 he's in Mexico. 18 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:01.200 Oh I love that. 19 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:02.759 Check that out. That guy's Captain Mexico. 20 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.519 He's my favorite one so far. I love the Captain Mexico. 21 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:09.480 It's like Halloween, but it's in March, and no one's 22 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:12.920 dressed like a hot dog. Everyone's specific and I like that. 23 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:14.719 I loved it. Now. 24 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:17.120 Another perk was that I was there to moderate a 25 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:19.319 panel with a dear, dear friend see Andrew Hall or 26 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:21.799 Andy Hall, who you may remember from an episode we 27 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:25.120 did in twenty twenty one about his environmental nonprofit. He 28 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:28.879 founded it. It's called Functional Magic, and it commissions these 29 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:33.280 really incredible artists to create gig poster style artwork that's collectible. 30 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:37.680 And because of that episode we did and y'all ologies listeners, 31 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:40.400 that first print run he did in twenty twenty one 32 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:43.680 sold out and Functional Magic was able to donate twenty 33 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:47.560 five thousand dollars to the Coalition for Rainforest Nations. And 34 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:50.480 just as I note, Functional Magic was then known as 35 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:53.319 the draw Down Design Project, but has since been renamed 36 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.079 and Andy says that Functional Magic is dedicated to spreading 37 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.120 this unapologetic hope about our shared future via pop art 38 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:03.159 that they put out into the world. So we'll link 39 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:05.400 that original episode in the show notes because it's a 40 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:09.360 great look at climate solutions and staying proactive with optimism. 41 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:13.039 So Andy organized a panel at wonder Con about activist 42 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.879 poster art and I was more than game to help. 43 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.560 I was like the time the place I'm there. Also 44 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.759 on the panel was some named Carol Wells, and she 45 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:25.599 is the founder and executive director of the Center for 46 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:29.240 the Study of Political Graphics, which is amazing. It's this 47 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:32.560 archive in Los Angeles that collects and preserves and documents 48 00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:37.159 and exhibits posters relating to these movements of social change. 49 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:40.680 How many posters they got, They got over ninety thousand posters. 50 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:43.120 So if you have ever had a message you wanted 51 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:46.120 to get across to strangers or a passion that you 52 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:50.000 wanted to scream from the rooftops, but you know that 53 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.800 art goes farther, this episode is for you, so free admission. 54 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.120 Let's get an update on Functional Magic's work, which involves 55 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.280 a launch this week of a T shirt line that 56 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.520 is gorgeous. And let's soak up the decades of history 57 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.159 of activism art with Andy and Carroll. As we cover 58 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:09.919 some history of protest art, different approaches graphically, who it 59 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.520 speaks to camouflage among ads? Where does street art go 60 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:19.879 to be archived? Propaganda, the tiniest, mightiest posters, collectible gig 61 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:22.960 posters for the climate, and how the anti war movement 62 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:26.400 galvanized so many artists. Also short warning, we do discuss 63 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:30.039 a few images of war photojournalism in this episode, So 64 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:33.560 get in. We're going postering with this field trip to 65 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:58.479 wonder con, activism and art. Welcome to the best panel 66 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.319 all weekend. I'm so excited to be here. My name 67 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:03.919 is Ali Ward, and I host a podcast called Ologies, 68 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:06.879 and I always loved to start off by finding out 69 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:10.240 where your passion comes from, So I would love to know, Carol, 70 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:15.840 where did you first get a spark for political posters 71 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:16.639 and activism. 72 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.319 Well, actually, I've always been passionate about art, and then 73 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:24.879 high school civil rights movement, I became passionate about social justice, 74 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:26.079 Vietnam War, etc. 75 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:26.600 Etc. 76 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:29.240 I became an art historian, but I taught about the 77 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:32.000 art of the rich and powerful by day, and I 78 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:35.600 protested the institutions of the rich and powerful on the 79 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:38.360 street so on weekends. I really like her, but they 80 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:43.279 weren't connected until I was hired to collect posters of 81 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:46.439 the New Revolution in Nicaragua in nineteen eighty one by 82 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.399 a professor at Ucla who collected posters for years. 83 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:53.279 So very very brief sidebout here. So the Nicaraguan Revolution 84 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:56.680 started in late nineteen seventies with an uprising against this 85 00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:01.560 family dynasty dictatorship and then and the rise of the 86 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:06.399 socialist leaning Sandinista National Liberation Front and then the subsequent 87 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:08.600 opposition to them by the contrast, which was a right 88 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:09.319 wing militia. 89 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:12.040 So Carol at the time was working to collect that 90 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:14.199 activist art on behalf of a professor. 91 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:16.240 And a poster changed my life. 92 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:19.000 And I wasn't interested in the political poster before, and 93 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:22.759 in that moment I literally had an epiphany and became 94 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:24.319 addicted to political posters. 95 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:24.959 Where was it? 96 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.759 Were you standing on the street? Was it in a 97 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:28.920 train station? Was it in a newspaper? 98 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.600 We were living with a family and we went to 99 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:33.800 the women's movement and they were having a big demonstration 100 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.199 and had a fresh delivery of posters for most Women's March, 101 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:39.319 and I gave one to the family we were living with, 102 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:41.879 and she put it on her living room wall, and 103 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:45.800 she was like the local healthcare person. And one neighbor 104 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.199 comes in with her eight year old son, nine year 105 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:50.040 old son, and the two women go off. 106 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:52.240 I'm alone in the living with the son. He's uninterested 107 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:53.399 in me, but he's looking around the room. 108 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:55.680 He'd never been there before. The poster all of a 109 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:57.480 sudden grabshi and he walks over to it. And I 110 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.360 watched him mouth the words on the post, which in 111 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:03.160 English would say in constructing the New Country, we are 112 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:05.600 becoming the new woman. And I watched them trying to 113 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.560 figure out. I'm sure you never figured it out, but 114 00:06:07.639 --> 00:06:09.720 that was the moment of my epiphany. That was the 115 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:12.800 moment I realized that's how posters work. You're gone about 116 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.480 your daily life and something breaks through the bubble that 117 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:17.839 we all have around to get through the day, and 118 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.439 it makes you ask a question. Whenever you ask a question, 119 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:22.399 you're not the same person you were before you asked 120 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.759 the question. I dropped my dissertation, which was three quarters 121 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:30.600 the way through my medieval architecture. My life totally changed. 122 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:33.839 So this poster with very simple line art and just 123 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:38.079 a few basic colors. This kelly green background, the tanned 124 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.720 brown of a South American woman's skin, and she's holding 125 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:45.079 a basket full of red coffee berries. This art was 126 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:47.560 made by a feminist organization which arose as part of 127 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:51.240 the Santanonistas, and Carol seeing that little boy reading it 128 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:57.199 and absorbing it made her realize the power of grassroots artwork. Okay, 129 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.839 we know posters work, we know that they capture O 130 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:02.480 eye tension, we see them, But in your opinion, how 131 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:03.040 do they work? 132 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:05.240 Why do they work? Well? They make us look at 133 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.439 the world in a different way. 134 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:10.000 And as far as quantifying it, I mean, think out 135 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:13.360 how many millions of dollars will spent on advertising, and 136 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:17.319 then many ways a poster or anti advertisement their counter advertisement. 137 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:19.519 But they work in the same way, and we were 138 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:23.160 surrounded by image overload. The trick is not just knowing 139 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:26.240 that images work, but finding an image that will break 140 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:28.720 through all the other images and attract your attention. 141 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:32.839 Just real quick, how valuable is marketing? Exactly? What's the 142 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.040 street value of a message? 143 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:35.519 Well? 144 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:38.240 How much is spent globally on advertising every year? I 145 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.160 wonder this. Companies spend an average of twelve percent of 146 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:45.439 their revenue back into marketing and according to this one 147 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:49.959 big data aggregator, nine hundred and seventeen billion dollars went 148 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:54.600 into advertising globally last year, and the US spent the most, 149 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:58.480 more than the next six biggest spenders combined, and we 150 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:02.199 know from social media are eyeballs and attention is worth 151 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:05.600 a shitload of money. But why make art that is 152 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:10.560 selling a concept or a movement? Are you reinforcing what 153 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:14.639 someone already thinks, are you completely changing how they feel 154 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:18.079 or think about something, or are you polarizing them another direction? 155 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:21.600 Where do you think activism and art take our brains? 156 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:22.680 It's all of the above. 157 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.600 The people who agree with you need to know that 158 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:28.199 they're not alone. Then you have to also reaches out 159 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.040 to the people who have made their mind up. They 160 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.080 are only getting one perspective, so it makes them sing, oh, 161 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:34.720 there's more than one way of looking at it. 162 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:36.360 And then there's. 163 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:38.240 The folks that are not going to agree with whatever 164 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:40.080 you say, no matter how you say it. But every 165 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:42.440 once in a while you do reach someone and they 166 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:44.919 start questioning what they never questioned. 167 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.679 What are historically some of the posters that have changed 168 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:51.639 the world or that were really big in movements. 169 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:55.039 Well, I actually did an article on five posters that 170 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:55.840 change the world. 171 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:57.080 Well, there you go, so. 172 00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:59.360 And the first one is actually very graphic. So I 173 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:04.120 just want to warn everybody it's a lot of dead bodies. 174 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:06.799 It was during the Vietnam War. I'm probably one of 175 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:09.879 the oldest people in this room, but during dinner, the 176 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.000 war was shown every night on the six o'clock news. 177 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:16.600 Two Americans were listed as dead. One was a machine 178 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:19.480 gunner and the second his company commander who took over 179 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:22.720 the machine gun from his fallen comrade and was killed himself. 180 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:26.639 Thirteen Gis were wounded. Four enemy soldiers were counted among 181 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:27.360 the casualties. 182 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:29.879 So everybody was eating their dinner while we would see 183 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:33.600 these stories literally seeing pictures of war, of murder, of 184 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:38.320 death and dying, and this particular massacre done by US 185 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:42.279 troops over five hundred women and children, mainly a few 186 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:45.600 old elderly men. No guns were found. Over a year later, 187 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.000 Seymour Hirsch, who's an independent journalist who still breaking news, 188 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:52.080 he uncovered it and the photograph, you know, New York Times, 189 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:55.679 Life magazine, they all showed this photo and Mike Wallace 190 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:58.879 on sixty Minutes interviewed one of the soldiers and he 191 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:03.440 asked the soldier and babies, and the soldier answered, and babies. 192 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:07.159 Men, women and children, men, women and child and babies 193 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:07.919 and babies. 194 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:10.159 Why did you do it? 195 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:12.399 Why did I do it? 196 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:14.279 Because I felt like I was ordered to do it. 197 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:16.960 Well at the time, I felt like I was doing 198 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:19.279 the right thing what I did. 199 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:21.360 You're married, all right? 200 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:23.320 Children? 201 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:27.120 How can a father of two young children shoot babies? 202 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:31.000 I don't know what's just for now things. 203 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:34.759 This legendary color photo was taken at the scene by 204 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:38.879 Army photographer Ron Haileburrow, and it shows this rural dirt 205 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:43.320 path through and otherwise green grassland. And in this dirt 206 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:46.559 road are a pile of over twenty victims of this 207 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:52.200 Meli massacre, including many children. And the photo showed the actual, 208 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:55.639 real horrors of the war, imagery that news outlets may 209 00:10:55.639 --> 00:10:58.840 have shielded from viewers, kind of like the deluge of 210 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.440 images you may have seen daily on social media of 211 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:06.039 gods and families and children killed in the last year 212 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:08.799 and a half in Palestine. I know my algorithm was 213 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:11.600 showing them to me all the time. And for more 214 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:14.320 on that, you can see our Genocideology episode with doctor 215 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:17.360 Dirk Moses. But yes, back to Vietnam and babies. A 216 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:18.159 group of New. 217 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.799 York artists, activists from the Artworkers Coalition took the image 218 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:27.519 and superimposed the words and babies and babies. 219 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:30.759 And the Artworker's coalition have made fifty thousand copies of 220 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:34.919 this and it kept it alive. The photo itself made headlines, 221 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:36.679 but if it bleeds, it leads in the next week 222 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:39.759 there's another photo. But the poster carried in all these 223 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.360 demonstrations kept it before the public, and the majority of 224 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:45.919 people believed the lies that the US government was saying 225 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:49.039 until this photo. They did not want their tax money 226 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:52.440 doing this. That plus the grassroots organizing, and you don't 227 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:54.799 have just the picture without the organizing. So all of 228 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:57.519 these thousands of people who were demonstrating and protesting and 229 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:00.000 students who are going on strike, we use this picture 230 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.000 and others and basically that's what started to change the 231 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:04.639 public sentiment about the. 232 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.759 War during that period, the sixties and the seventies. Did 233 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:10.759 you find that a lot of the art and activism 234 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:12.000 was anti war? 235 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:12.399 Oh? 236 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:15.240 Yes, so at the time. In addition to civilians, many 237 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.519 military veterans, especially since there was a draft, were also 238 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.759 part of this anti war movement. And Carol says that 239 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:26.000 there's no right or wrong approach. Not all activism is 240 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:31.000 poster sized and depicts grim realities. And then she advances 241 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.919 a slide here which is a simple, almost crude kind 242 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:38.039 of crayon looking art. It's got a bright yellow background 243 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:41.679 with a thick black line art drawing of a sunflower 244 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.720 and handwritten lettering that reads war is not healthy for 245 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.159 children and other living things. And it's called Primer. It's 246 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:52.639 by artist Lamrain Schneider, and it debuted in its original 247 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:55.759 form as a miniature painting just two inches by two 248 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.399 inches for an art show in nineteen sixty five, and 249 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:02.000 it became so wide spread and iconic and image that 250 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.840 Schneider donated all the rights to the image to the 251 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.720 anti war nonprofit Another Mother for Peace, and it raised 252 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:11.120 hundreds of thousands of dollars for the anti war effort. 253 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:14.240 I know this one, in particular is meaningful to you. 254 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:17.720 You're wearing a necklace with this art engraved on it, 255 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.039 so you carry this with you around your neck. Can 256 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.000 you describe why this poster meant so much to you, 257 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:24.600 why it's left such an eu. 258 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:28.080 It's interesting. At the time, it was everywhere. 259 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.279 It was probably the most widely reproduced poster during the 260 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:34.600 Vietnam War done by Another Mother for Peace, and it 261 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:38.559 was used basically to fund workshops in high schools against 262 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.639 ROTC and against enlisting, so that was really using it 263 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:43.200 to help organize. 264 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:45.879 Originally it was two by three inch. Oh that's tiny, 265 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:47.799 that's like tiny, And. 266 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:50.679 It was submitted to a contest and lost, and she 267 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.080 made cards out of it, and another Mother for Peace 268 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:54.879 saw and asked if they could use it as their logo, 269 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:57.039 and the rest is history, and so they will it 270 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:02.279 up into that size poster, made medallions, stickers, bumper stickers, patches. 271 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.279 I mean, the pendant that I'm wearing is the same 272 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:07.679 shape and approximate size as a dog tag, so the 273 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.080 gis would wear it with their dog tags. It became 274 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:15.399 a very powerful statement. And then the organization gave the 275 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.320 Center for the Study of Political Graphics permission to reproduce 276 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:20.960 it during the Iraq War and a friend of mine 277 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:22.840 kept coming in and buying them. I said, wow, you're 278 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:24.919 just really giving them out. She says, no, I have 279 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.240 one in my front yard and it keeps getting destroyed. 280 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:28.080 Wow. 281 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:31.039 And I had never thought that that poster could piss 282 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:33.919 people off, because you know who's going to object to 283 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:36.639 wars not healthy to children and other living things. 284 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:40.600 Is it important to have icons or archetypes or imagery 285 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:43.279 that's familiar to someone like with comic book art. 286 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:44.600 You know, we're at wonder con here. 287 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:47.840 What is the role of comics and the style of 288 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.919 comics in political and social activism? 289 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:51.200 Right? 290 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:54.879 Well, I think what you said about the familiarity is 291 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:58.759 a key point. Unlike a corporate ad, which has usually 292 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.320 a huge budget and a lot of time to come 293 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:04.200 up with what they think is an effective ad, political 294 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:08.200 poster artists generally act really quickly. George Floyd, for example, 295 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:12.759 that poster gets made immediately immediately because it's demonstrations the 296 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:15.440 next day. And in case like George Floyd, you'd have 297 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:18.799 a portrait. But in other cases it's really helpful to 298 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:22.639 have something that looks familiar but not quite. So you'll 299 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:26.159 see comic strip characters, you'll see advertisement, you'll see fine 300 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.639 art incorporated in so it looks like a commercial, and 301 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:29.399 then all of a sudden. 302 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:30.960 Wait a minute, that doesn't look like a commercial. 303 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:35.000 Carol advances aside to show these early two thousands ads 304 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:40.320 for Apple's then brand new device called an iPod, and 305 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:45.000 these ads always featured a brightly single colored background, maybe 306 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.120 in a golden rod yellow or a royal blue or 307 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:53.000 a magenta, and a black silhouette of someone hot dancing 308 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:57.440 while holding their innovative small little white box of an 309 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:01.240 iPod with their iconic white ear buds on the cord. 310 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:05.559 Who remembers this right, Yeah, before anyone had iPods, it 311 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:08.679 was like that. That was the life everyone wanted to live. 312 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:11.159 And the ad hasn't been used in over a decade. 313 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.039 It's the same journalist that I mentioned, Simo Hirsch, also 314 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.120 uncovered the torture in Abu Gray Prison in Iraq, which 315 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:21.080 was run by the US military. Again, not supposed to happen, 316 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:24.080 and US isn't supposed to do that. Other people are tortures, 317 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.559 we are not, but this obviously put. 318 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:30.720 Lied to that. And there were many, many, many photographs. 319 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:32.200 And around the same time, and this was early in 320 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.200 the Iraq War, the US Army and the CIA committed 321 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:39.399 violations of human rights laws against those detained at Abu 322 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.320 Gray Prison. Now, there was this one leaked image which 323 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.000 you may or may not remember. It was a photo 324 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:48.200 of a prisoner in a dark blanket like poncho and 325 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:52.320 a pointed hood and he's balancing on a box. Both 326 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:54.879 arms are outstretched to the side and you can see 327 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.720 electric shocking wires dangling from his arms. And this photo 328 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.879 was nicknamed the hooded man and with just a few 329 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.039 graphic design tweaks, maybe blurw your eyes a little, and 330 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.319 that image was this really eerie echo to the glossy 331 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:12.599 consumerism literally plastered all over the world at that time. 332 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.079 That photo became very iconic, I think because of its 333 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:19.039 religious connection. And so there was an artist on the 334 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.400 East coast, both of these pseudonyms. There was an artist 335 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:23.519 on the East Coast and the one in la There 336 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:27.319 were two guys. They called themselves Folkscheo Graphics, also a pseudonym, 337 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.359 because they were afraid to be sued by Apple. I 338 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.400 kept telling them, no, no, no, you won't be sued 339 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:34.279 because it's fair use, and it's a political poster. 340 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:35.119 It's free speech. 341 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:38.319 Oh, you're not trying to sell an imitation of an 342 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:40.440 iPod AD. You're not trying to sell anything at all. 343 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:42.839 You're just using it to grab attention. So they both 344 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:45.000 hit the streets almost at the same time. 345 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:47.279 If you hadn't been born yet, this was in two 346 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:47.880 thousand and four. 347 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.160 And what they did they incorporated the ad into the 348 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.640 real ad. They incorporated the protest poster into the real ad. 349 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:57.759 So when you're walking by, all of a sudden you 350 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:01.039 see something familiar in the iPod ad, But what the 351 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.519 torture image of the hooded man with the wires coming 352 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:06.680 from us? It's like culture jamming. But once you get 353 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:09.119 it in your head, once you see that, you can 354 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.359 never see the real ad again without doing a double take. 355 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:14.359 Is it the real one or is it the political one? 356 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.000 So it's absolutely one of the most brilliant political poster 357 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.480 interjections into popular culture that I've seen. 358 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.920 So activism art can be tiny. It can be thrust 359 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.559 overhead in a crowd, it can be wheat pasted on 360 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:31.160 city streets, or it can hang up as collectibles. And 361 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:34.279 again our twenty twenty one episode with nonprofit environmental art 362 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:38.160 organization Functional Magic founder and creative director c Andrew Hall 363 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:42.279 aka Andy, he shared that his aim is to use 364 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:46.039 beautiful artwork of climate solutions to inspire people in their 365 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.079 own daily environments, and he piped up to ask Carol, 366 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:50.480 I have a question that. 367 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.519 We could disagree about the details, but broad strokes, whether 368 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:55.920 you're a public in or Democrat, there is very little 369 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:58.799 appetite in the American public for boots on the ground 370 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.960 American soldiers and other countries anymore. Do you at all 371 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.799 think that a lot of that activism was successful. Do 372 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:07.119 you take any pride in that? Do you see any 373 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:08.839 movement since when you started this work. 374 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:11.039 Pride is not a word that I use. 375 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:14.720 I think because of what we did, the movement did, 376 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:16.480 they got smarter. 377 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:18.279 The warmongers got smarter. 378 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:23.319 So when Bush starts the Iraq War, no cameras allowed, 379 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:24.799 No journalists were allowed. 380 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:26.240 When the body bags came home. 381 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.400 Oh, that doesn't seem suspicious at all. 382 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.400 They were not allowed. So they've learned, and so we've 383 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:34.200 had to become more creative. Also, I don't know who 384 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:36.799 said it's the old slogan, but first they ignore you, 385 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:40.359 then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win. 386 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:45.119 So we're in the ridicule fight stage. We've been there 387 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:46.079 for quite a while. 388 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:51.039 That quote is first they ignore you, then they ridicule you, 389 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:53.559 and then they attack you and want to burn you, 390 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.599 and then they build monuments to you. It's not from Gandhi, 391 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.799 as many people attribute it to him, but it rather 392 00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.200 is from a nineteen eighteen speech by a union activist 393 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.839 named Nicholas Klein. Klein such a g he was orphaned. 394 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:10.839 He grew up to become an attorney and a labor activist. 395 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:13.680 He even wrote for a paper called The Hobo News. 396 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:18.200 I was like, what's that demographic hobos? Real hobos And 397 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:22.279 apparently it legitimized the identities of unhoused and itinerant workers. 398 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.000 And it also started the modern street newspaper movement. So 399 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:30.680 change needs people, and people are in public and the 400 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:34.200 public space needs a street team, no matter what the cause. 401 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.559