WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:23.079 Hey, everybody, Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Lovett. 2 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.960 I just wrapped a great conversation with Jonathan v Last 3 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:29.960 of the Blue Work. It went all kinds of places 4 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.960 to what went wrong inside the Republican Party, what a 5 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:37.880 post Trump Democratic party should be fighting for, and what 6 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:41.880 it means to have a politics that centers virtues like kindness, 7 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:44.759 and what happened to lead a country to a place 8 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:47.039 where someone like Donald Trump could be president in the 9 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:50.960 first place. I really appreciate the way Jonathan thinks and 10 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.600 writes about politics, especially as one of the rare conservatives 11 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:58.799 who understood from the beginning why it was so toxic 12 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:02.399 to embrace someone as as Trump. I'm grateful to him 13 00:01:02.439 --> 00:01:04.359 for coming on the show, and I think you'll really 14 00:01:05.000 --> 00:01:10.439 enjoy the conversation. So here it is, Jonathan, Welcome to 15 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:10.879 the show. 16 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:12.319 Thanks for having me on. 17 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:15.200 Finally, John, you know, I understand that there is a 18 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:18.480 text chain in which whenever Sarah Longwell or Tim Millner 19 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:22.319 has been on the show, you note that you hadn't 20 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:25.319 yet been invited. I'm sorry that it took this long 21 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.439 to have you on, because I'm genuinely such an admirer 22 00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:30.560 of the way you think about politics the way you 23 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:33.280 talk about politics, and as I said to you on 24 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:35.920 a sub stack, a compliment that you then wrote an 25 00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:40.480 essay about to kind of dispute, I appreciate the I 26 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:43.280 appreciate those who did something that is clearly harder than 27 00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:47.079 it looked, which is be honest and moral from the 28 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.439 right or the center right in the face of trump Ism, 29 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:51.120 when so many refused to do that. And so I 30 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.200 think you have a lot to say to help understand 31 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:57.400 this moment. I want to talk about what you called 32 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:01.439 a grand unified theory of trump Ism, which you summarized 33 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:03.640 as and I quote, the essence of trump Ism is 34 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:08.039 that the other side will always choose surrender over discomfort. 35 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:09.919 I want to use that to kind of help us 36 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:13.800 understand a bunch of different stories. But just what do 37 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:15.599 you mean by that and what are some of the 38 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:17.120 salient examples to you? 39 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:20.199 Yeah, So I was worriting about the White House Corresponds dinner, 40 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:24.000 and it strikes me this is a lot of the 41 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:30.120 way Trump has approached waves hands you know, all of it, 42 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:34.759 and especially the way he approached the Republican Party. And 43 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:36.840 I have to say this, I mean, Trump really did 44 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:40.240 understand the Republican Party in the conservative movement much better 45 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:44.000 than I did. You know, he saw those people for 46 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:48.560 who they are. And one of the things he has found, 47 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:52.639 even with not them, but just sort of mainstream culture, 48 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:58.240 is that if forced to make uncomfortable choices, people normally 49 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:02.639 choose comfort over like pleasantness. And so this was, you know, 50 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:07.560 the the White Hous Correspondence dinner. They invite up onto 51 00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:10.240 stage this group of Wall Street journal reporters who did 52 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:16.840 fantastic reporting about Trump and the Epstein stuff, and these 53 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:19.960 people like come up on stage and they're like, I 54 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:22.039 guess I'm supposed to shake this guy's hand, and they 55 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.199 shake hands and then he and he even like when 56 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:27.879 he went and gave his speech afterwards, noted he was like, yeah, 57 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:29.560 I can believe it. You know, these guys up here 58 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:31.080 they kill me all the time. Then they just come 59 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:34.240 up and shake my hand. It's like, yeah, it's a 60 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:38.240 little weird, isn't it. Yeah, And he he does that 61 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:40.719 again and again. He's doing that right now about Todd 62 00:03:40.719 --> 00:03:47.800 Blanche with Thomb Phyllis and John Cornyn, and they are saying, 63 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:51.680 we're totally in on this Todd Blanche thing, even though 64 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.120 he's your personal lawyer. And even though he ate it 65 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.240 and embedded the Epstein cover up, and even though it 66 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:01.240 was his idea to do this slush fun, the one 67 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.280 thing is that we really would love We know you 68 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:06.280 said you won't do it, but if you could just 69 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:11.319 write that down for us, that'd be great. And uh. 70 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:16.360 And Trump's response to this is fuck you, you know. And 71 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:20.639 and when when confronted with the fuck you, their response, 72 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:22.319 I don't know if you saw I was. 73 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:24.720 This is literally where I was going. Next. I want 74 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:29.279 to read Tom till So. Yes, So, John Cornyn and 75 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:31.279 Tom Tillis have been the hold up in the Senate 76 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.319 judiciary community, just for people that haven't been following that closely. 77 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:38.199 Yesterday Thursday, Uh, they were supposed to vote on the 78 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:41.839 on the Todd blanche nomination. This Trump's former personal defensive attorney, 79 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:45.959 the guy that met with Gallaine Maxwell. Uh who uh 80 00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:48.319 wants to be attorney the guy who said that the 81 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:51.480 attorney general is not independent, which was by the way, 82 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:54.839 Tillis's or Cornyn's or Tillis's red line that's now been 83 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:58.839 crossed obviously. Uh. Uh. They have said they're not going 84 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:01.279 to vote because they haven't received to guarantee that they 85 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:03.800 won't pursue a fund to give millions of dollars to 86 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:07.600 insurrectionists and other allies of Trump who have been quote 87 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:12.240 unquote persecuted by Biden. Trump puts out a stem winder 88 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:16.399 of a statement defending the fund, justifying it completely, saying 89 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:20.480 I want this, this is good, Let's do the fund. 90 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:25.439 Tillis quotes that statement and writes, and I quote Senator 91 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:27.560 Cornyn and I have been working with Acting A. G. 92 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:30.240 Tom Blanche to end the Anti Weaponization Fund, and he 93 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:33.360 has been forthright, thoughtful, and patient. It's a shame his 94 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:36.839 confirmation has hit a snag only because an incompetent personal 95 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.160 advisor to the President refuses to amend the bogus settlement. 96 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:44.519 Once again, Stalin has been failed by the Secretariat. 97 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:48.480 If only they would tell him John, the Cullox would 98 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:51.600 never have been liquidated. If Comrade Stalin had known what 99 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:52.879 was happening. 100 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.040 All the wheat they would have had where it's not 101 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:59.560 for the for these bourgeois farm owners even now right 102 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:01.720 corn into us. These are people that are I have 103 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:05.160 lost their seats in part because of Trump, who are 104 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:09.079 ostensibly I would say probably, you know when they when 105 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:12.480 they're alone with their thoughts, believe they are actually doing 106 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.839 something good right now. But we have allowed Trump to 107 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:18.240 move our baseline so far that this is what this 108 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:22.519 is what kind of stands in for Republicans not going along. 109 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.160 What was your reaction to that statement. 110 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:30.360 Uh, I mean my reaction was was befuddlement. I mean, 111 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:32.360 I don't know about you, but I remember a time 112 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.920 when people in Washington can be motivated by spite. Yes, 113 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.360 and like, I don't know, they's just like, wouldn't wouldn't 114 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:40.240 there be a fuck me? 115 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:40.879 No, fuck you. 116 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:42.720 I'm not going to confirm your you know, you just 117 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:44.879 cost me my Senate seat. I'm never going to confirm 118 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:46.920 your age. You know, good luck, hope you the hope 119 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:49.920 the Democrats don't capture the Senate, right, And there's none 120 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:50.720 of that, there's none of that. 121 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:54.360 You know, you're right about the other side choosing surrender 122 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:59.000 over discomfort. But it's that there's a kind of I 123 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.160 think it comes from a place of decadence, which is 124 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:06.720 some version of I don't I don't think these guys 125 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:09.519 have really thought very deeply of what it is to 126 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:14.040 use power via negotiation, right, because the idea that they're 127 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.240 saying over and over again. I want to get to 128 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:21.040 yes on Todd Blanche, like Donald Trump, who is at 129 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:23.680 his heart what he believes himself to be is a negotiator. 130 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:26.199 That's what he sees himself as. And you know, obviously 131 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:27.839 we could, we would, we could attack whether or not 132 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:31.759 he's genuinely good at it. But the basics, uh, you know, 133 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.959 set a crazy anchor, be a radic whatever. He has 134 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.360 those he has those tools in his tool chest. And 135 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:43.600 these guys are such they're just babies about it. It's unbelievable. 136 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:46.680 Yeah, they're they're babies. But here's the thing, and is 137 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:50.879 why I think it's vanity. I think this is about 138 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:55.560 them wanting to feel like they drew a line in 139 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.959 the sand. But even their line isn't the real line. Like, 140 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:02.319 I am sorry. If Todd Blanche signs a piece of 141 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:05.959 paper saying that, you know, we won't do this one, 142 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.519 what is that That? That is a worthless guarantee. It 143 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:13.319 is not worth any It's not enforceable. You know, this 144 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:15.600 is not a law. It's not something you have to 145 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.160 go to the Supreme Court and have them overturned. It's 146 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:21.519 just a piece of paper. You do whatever they Robert F. 147 00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:24.000 Kennedy Junior testified under oath that he wasn't going to 148 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:26.759 do anything about vaccines. He said that thing under oath, 149 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:29.759 he went and did it. It's not worth anything. And 150 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.200 this is something that Trump just signed a deal with 151 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:34.480 Saudi Arabia. Did you see this over over nukes? Like 152 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:37.399 two weeks ago? And the deal was signed and then 153 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.080 he was like, oh yeah, and I want them to 154 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:42.080 recognize Israel too, And the Saudis are like, hey, bro, 155 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:45.360 what what are you talking about? The papers? Sign bro? 156 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:48.320 And he's like, yeah, no, don't don't care. You know 157 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.559 what It's like? This is this like so even the 158 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:52.799 idea that like, oh well we got him to sign 159 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:56.639 this piece of paper, is it self ludicrous and decking it, 160 00:08:56.759 --> 00:08:59.000 which is why I think it's all about self image 161 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:02.159 and it's what they've got to tell themselves. And I 162 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.879 don't understand that, Like I I could understand. Here are 163 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:08.679 the things I could understand, John, I could understand them 164 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.159 just saying I'm getting too old for this shit. Fine, 165 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:14.399 have your Todd Blanche. I don't give a fuck. I'm 166 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:16.519 out of here, right. I would understand that. I wouldn't 167 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:18.360 like it, I wouldn't respect it, but I'd understand it. 168 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:22.480 I would understand the you know, now, the spiteful. I 169 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:25.679 don't care who you could nominate Jesus Christ himself and 170 00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.480 I would not. I would not, you know, vote to 171 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.320 confirm him. What I can't understand is I'm going to 172 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:36.000 look at the totality of this nominee. I'm gonna find 173 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:40.080 one thing about it that I'm gonna set as a 174 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:43.200 condition that makes it surmountable, and then I'm going to 175 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.759 pretend to hold out until you give me a meaningless 176 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:50.519 assurance so that I can say I satisfied my one condition. 177 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:53.879 That is bizarre. Do you understand that, like, just as 178 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:55.240 a piece of human psychology. 179 00:09:55.440 --> 00:10:01.720 I don't, other than perhaps because they're so solicitous towards 180 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:06.200 Blanche himself, and I think they sort Blanche into the 181 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:10.080 category as a guy we can work with, right, Like 182 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:11.759 you know that, you know he's a guy we can 183 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:13.879 work He's he's a serious guy, right, Yeah, he's a 184 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:16.600 Trump's personalty. He's one of the serious ones. You know, 185 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:18.480 he's he's one of the good ones. He's not one 186 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.960 of the kooks. Right, He's one of ours, right, And 187 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:21.480 he's one of ours. 188 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:23.840 He's not like that cracking lady, right. 189 00:10:23.879 --> 00:10:25.519 And he's not you know, he's not like, he's not 190 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.120 like a Bill POULTI he's a Clayton. Right. We have 191 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:30.519 we have the Bill Poultices, right, and we have a Clayton. 192 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.840 Now the fact that in practice Bill, you know, a Poulty, 193 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:37.399 really believes what he says about Trump being persecuted and 194 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:40.519 wanting to destroy his enemies, and Clayton just performs that 195 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:43.159 way for the cameras. They still view that as having 196 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:45.279 a distinction as important. 197 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:46.519 Right, And so. 198 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.080 Because Blanche is their kind of guy, when they have 199 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.519 that meeting and Blanche says, look, some version of he 200 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:55.720 can't admit it. He can't say it's bad. We're not 201 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:59.279 pursuing it. There's no intention to pursue it. It's it's dead. 202 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:01.559 But the more you press on it, you know him, 203 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.159 the more he's going to dig in. Right. So I 204 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:07.120 am giving you this assurance. It will never be something 205 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:11.240 that I pursue as Attorney General. And beyond that, it 206 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:13.679 is just very difficult. I just need room, right, I 207 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:17.480 just need room to operate within this administration and these 208 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:20.799 the they've allowed. You know, there's a like it's true, 209 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:23.240 you know, relationships you know, crazy, You'll move your baseline. 210 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:23.480 Right. 211 00:11:23.720 --> 00:11:26.279 You've been in a terrible relationship for a long time, 212 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:28.960 and you're just trying to get through the day, and 213 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:31.759 you just you're just trying to kind of eke out 214 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.320 a little wins, get things a little bit back towards normal. Memo, 215 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.080 what are we talking about here? We are negotiating over 216 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.639 whether the president can take one point seven seven six 217 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:42.480 billion in taxpayer money and just give it to his buddies, 218 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:46.240 some of whom beat up fucking cops at the nation's 219 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:49.360 capital in an insurrection that these guys all believed at 220 00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:52.960 the time was so destructive to Trump politically and to 221 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:54.960 the country that they didn't worry I have to worry 222 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:56.879 about him ever again, so they didn't have to to, 223 00:11:57.080 --> 00:11:59.840 per your theory, do something uncomfortable for the base, which 224 00:11:59.879 --> 00:12:02.799 is impeach him and remove him so that he couldn't 225 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:05.759 run again. And they have never learned that lesson, because 226 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:07.720 if they learned that lesson, it requires something of. 227 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:10.440 Them, Remember Mitch, like, they'll take care of the son 228 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:12.279 of a bitch for us, right, we don't have to 229 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:15.360 do anything on this, They'll do it. And this is 230 00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:17.840 I don't know, and maybe this is persistent. I mean, 231 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.519 maybe this is a persistent trait of the human condition 232 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:22.600 that we see in all times, in all places. I'm 233 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:25.080 sure if we were to look at the progress of 234 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:27.720 authoritarianism throughout history, we would see a lot of this 235 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:33.639 from people. But it's Trump is. Trump is very smart 236 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:37.240 about human nature, I think, and he was smart about 237 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:38.919 understanding that America is not exceptional. 238 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:41.960 Oh that's interesting. I don't agree with that. I think 239 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:45.399 that is too too many moves away from the way 240 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.960 he sees these people. I think, like when he shakes 241 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:51.279 the hands of those reporters on that stage, he's actually 242 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:54.200 doing what was a criticism of the dinner that actually, 243 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:56.039 in hindsight wasn't as true as we said it was, 244 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:58.039 which is, oh, it's all a game to these fucking people, 245 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:02.000 and that the original criticism of the White House Correspondence 246 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.200 dinner was these people are supposed to be antagonist the 247 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:08.639 press and the administration, and they have this cushy dinner 248 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.720 and both optically so optically it represents something that is 249 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:16.559 like ugly to the American people, But on a substantive level, 250 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:19.840 it reveals something, which is their commitments aren't real, they 251 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:22.639 aren't serious. I actually in hindsight, don't agree with that. 252 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:25.200 I disagree with that. I actually think their commitments were 253 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:27.919 real and actually what that dinner, it turns out, was about, 254 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.159 and something we took for granted, is yes, they're on 255 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:32.639 opposite sides in the game, but they're all believers in 256 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:33.000 the game. 257 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:33.320 Right. 258 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:36.200 They're in the stadium together playing the game of democracy. 259 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:39.519 Trump's not in that, which is why it's so ugly, 260 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.399 because it's not just that people aren't uncomfortable with discomfort. 261 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:45.919 I think that what Trump it's not that America wasn't exceptional, 262 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.519 or that we don't believe that in America's sort of 263 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.759 special virtues. It's that he understood that there's a lot 264 00:13:53.799 --> 00:14:00.440 of people who don't actually care about those virtues enough 265 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:02.440 to do something right. That's true of the press in 266 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.559 that room. That's true of the lawyers at those firms 267 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:08.399 that capitulated, That is true of the corporate media. That 268 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:14.360 actually that is that after thirty years of post history liberalism, 269 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:19.960 there is a lack of understanding of who you know. 270 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.120 There's there's a there's been a gunshot in the courtyard, 271 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.279 someone's got a call nine one one. We all can't 272 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:28.840 look out the window and wait for someone else to 273 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:30.759 call nine one one. Somebody's got to call nine one. 274 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:33.799 And his great realization actually is that none of these 275 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.960 people realize it's their job, right. And I don't think 276 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:38.200 that's an indictment of our view of America. It's an 277 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:40.399 indictment of this generation of elites. 278 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:41.960 All right. I'll to chew on that. I mean, I 279 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:46.519 think it's certainly I think that is certainly true. It 280 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:49.480 may also be true that the rest of America is 281 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:52.200 worthy of indictment, but I'll take that into advisement. 282 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:02.639 Pod Save America is brought to you by Simply Safe. 283 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:04.639 If an intruder were to approach your house, what would 284 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:08.320 the average security system do? 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They update their page daily 315 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:28.879 with hundreds of real reviews from people sharing how much 316 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:31.000 therapy has helped them. In fact, Better Help holds an 317 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:33.000 average live session rating a four point nine out of 318 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:35.440 five across more than one point seven million client reviews. 319 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.320 Check out their reviews yourself to read feedback directly from 320 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.440 people who use it. More than six million people have 321 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:42.960 used better Help globally. The consistent feedback from real users 322 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.039 makes it easy to see why so many people continue 323 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.480 to choose Better Help. Better Help therapists have at least 324 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.120 three years in one thousand hours of hands on experience. 325 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:53.480 I prefer my therapist to be hands off like soccer rules. 326 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:54.679 No hands in therapy. 327 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:55.200 That's my rule. 328 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.759 But I understand what they mean. It's a metaphor for 329 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.360 being inactively engaged. They also hold all required education and 330 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.480 certifications across a range of mental health specialties. Better Help 331 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.799 makes it easy to get started, answer a few questions, 332 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:07.599 get matched with a therapist based on your needs, and 333 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.079 switch therapists at any time if it's not the right fit. Therapists, 334 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:14.200 you gotta have one you know. Go to therapy, see reviews, 335 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:15.759 see what stands out, and see if better Help was 336 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.160 right for you. Is it betterhelp dot com slash PSA, 337 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.160 that's better h E l P dot com slash PSA. 338 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.400 There's a quote going around. Uh, it's something to the 339 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:30.519 effect of more Americans are fascists than we realize, and 340 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:32.960 one day we're going to find out, And so I 341 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.880 want to I want to. This is actually where I 342 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:37.799 wanted to go next, because I think it's an. 343 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:41.599 Old Hemingway, like the old Hemingway quote. Yes, and how 344 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:43.799 many people are fascists and they'll find out when the 345 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:45.599 time comes. Yeah, something to I'm butchering. 346 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:47.960 I know, I was afraid. I'm afraid I'm falling for 347 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.200 a brainy quote like Gandhi once said, Live, laugh, loove. 348 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:53.079 But the gist of it, I think does apply. A 349 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.920 point you've made repeatedly, which I think there's very little 350 00:17:55.960 --> 00:17:59.599 equity equity to in politics, is you can blame Trump, 351 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:02.880 you can blame misinformation, you can blame Republicans. And this 352 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:05.799 is a paraphrase of something you've written, seventy seven million 353 00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:09.720 Americans who voted for Trump or some combination of unserious, decadent, 354 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.279 or weak. Now, it's a lot cheaper in politics to 355 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.279 blame the powers that be. That's drue on the left, 356 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.279 that's true on the right, there's not a lot of 357 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:23.319 discussion about the culpability of the actual voters and their 358 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:25.799 agency in this. So can you, just as somebody that 359 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.920 has been an observer of conservatism from the inside for 360 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:36.400 a long time, what have you learned about the voters 361 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:37.960 themselves through this period? 362 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:40.119 Well, so, I mean, I can tell you my impressions. 363 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.000 I can't tell you that they are like facts that 364 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:47.359 I've learned. What I have seen suggests to me, though, 365 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:53.960 that you to avoid, to avoid coming to the conclusion 366 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:59.480 that voters wanted what they chose, You've got to start 367 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:04.680 creating a whole bunch of Rube Goldberg contraptions. And the 368 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:07.160 minute you push on any of these constructs even a 369 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:08.880 little bit, they start wobbling, and so you have to 370 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:13.240 build another one. Right, And so you know when people 371 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:16.799 say something like, oh they really they only care about 372 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.799 the economy, and you're like, well, but the economy is 373 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.960 terrible when Trump left office, Oh well they that was 374 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.119 just the last eighteen months of the economy, and they 375 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.400 really they they think about the first you know, two 376 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.759 and a half years, and you're like, well, wait a minute. 377 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:36.240 Americas always say what do you do for me? Lately? 378 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:39.799 They say well, yes, but then they really understood that 379 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.000 the COVID was an exogenous event and that you can't 380 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:46.920 blame the president for exogynous events. You're like, what the 381 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:49.880 fuck are you talking about? You think what percentage of 382 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:54.680 the country could spell the word exogynous? Right, And so 383 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.680 you wind up making all of these things to avoid 384 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:01.160 coming to the conclusion that no people saw Donald Trump 385 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:03.599 for who he was. They heard what he was saying, 386 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:06.559 they heard the things he was saying, and they said, 387 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:10.160 I would like that. And I think the reason people 388 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:14.279 don't want to go there is because that's a dark place, right. 389 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:16.880 I mean, if the conclusion you end you wind up 390 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:21.720 with is some large portion of that seventy seven million voters, 391 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:25.720 maybe not all of them, maybe not maybe not even 392 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:27.720 a majority of Maybe it's only like a third of 393 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:33.319 them wanted this, like this is what they understood Trump 394 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:38.240 to be, to be promising, and they wanted it. That's tough, right, 395 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.279 You're now saying, well, hold on. So that means we've 396 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:42.559 got like twenty five million voters in the country who 397 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:46.759 are fascist like, who want a strong man and who 398 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:52.400 are not sold on the liberal order because the reality is, like, 399 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:56.160 you don't need a majority. Right, if you have a 400 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.240 I mean, how many how many Bolsheviks were there? Right 401 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.119