1 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 2 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 3 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 3: We're joined today by Maureen Boyle, author of Shallow Graves, 4 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,600 The Hunt for the New Bedford Highway serial Killer. Maureen, 5 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,679 thank you for joining us today, and thank you very 6 00:00:56,759 --> 00:00:59,840 much for having me on the show. I greatly appreciate it. 7 00:01:00,399 --> 00:01:02,399 Start by telling us a little bit about how you 8 00:01:02,439 --> 00:01:03,759 got your start in journalism. 9 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: I started in journalism actually in high school, working school paper, 10 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,319 and I went to college for journalism. Throughout my college career, 11 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:20,359 I interned at the local newspaper, Daily Newspaper in Bridgeport, Connecticut, 12 00:01:20,439 --> 00:01:24,439 where I'm originally from, and then after graduation, I started 13 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,200 working at different newspapers throughout New England. I like to 14 00:01:28,239 --> 00:01:31,640 say though I started my career in journalism actually started 15 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,480 in the second grade when a nun was teaching us 16 00:01:35,519 --> 00:01:39,480 how to do quotation marks, and I have this distinct 17 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,840 memory of looking up at her and thinking in my head, 18 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:50,120 I really need to know this. And after that career 19 00:01:50,319 --> 00:01:50,719 was born. 20 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: I noticed in the notes to your book, you're very 21 00:01:56,239 --> 00:02:01,120 clear on something, which is if something is quoted directly, those, 22 00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:04,959 as you point out, are from conversations you participated in 23 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,959 directly or court docs or other things where you know, 24 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:11,680 for certain, so and so said exactly these words. And 25 00:02:11,719 --> 00:02:14,719 then in other situations where you're talking about things where 26 00:02:14,719 --> 00:02:16,639 you weren't in the room, which obviously is some at 27 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,960 the time, then it's no quotes. And you're very clear 28 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:25,039 about when you have precise quotations and when you have 29 00:02:25,319 --> 00:02:27,000 other things that are probably paraphrased. 30 00:02:27,599 --> 00:02:30,599 Speaker 1: Yes, and I think that's something that you really have 31 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:35,000 to be very accurate about for the reader, because you're 32 00:02:35,039 --> 00:02:37,879 not there for all of it. I was very lucky 33 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,080 with the on New Bedford Highway serial killing case because 34 00:02:41,199 --> 00:02:43,800 I was a reporter for the New Bedford Standard Times 35 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,520 in Massachusetts at that time, and I was covering the case, 36 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,000 so I could draw on what was going on, what 37 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,800 I remembered, what I saw, and my own stories that 38 00:02:53,879 --> 00:02:57,360 I wrote back then, so I preserved those quotes. So 39 00:02:57,439 --> 00:03:00,560 that is what was said, So that served is some 40 00:03:00,599 --> 00:03:03,240 of the notes for the book, as well as some 41 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,039 of the additional interviews that I did with people. 42 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 3: Were you the only reporter who was covering that case 43 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,520 or was it something that just about everybody on staff 44 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,280 was covering at some point or another. 45 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: Later on, obviously I could not cover every single angle 46 00:03:19,319 --> 00:03:22,199 of it because the story really got too big. We 47 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,719 had the New York Times there, there was I believe 48 00:03:25,759 --> 00:03:29,280 someone from the Washington Post may have been there, all 49 00:03:29,319 --> 00:03:33,919 of the Boston stations, all of the Boston newspapers, the 50 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:39,960 Providence stations, the Providence Newspaper, the Fall River Paper. So 51 00:03:40,159 --> 00:03:43,639 it was a what someone might call a real cluster 52 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,000 at that point, with all of the media there. As 53 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,159 the story progressed in the very beginning, though primarily it 54 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,680 was me and this sound's very odd, but it also 55 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,879 tells you something about the staffing of local newspapers. At 56 00:03:58,879 --> 00:04:03,199 one point early on, it was me and a photographer 57 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,960 from the Providence Journal, because the photographer for the Journal 58 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:10,000 lived in the New Bedford area, so when anything happened, 59 00:04:10,039 --> 00:04:12,599 he's able to get there quickly, while the reporters were 60 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:17,000 in Rhode Island and at the Standard Times. At that point, 61 00:04:17,199 --> 00:04:21,600 our photographers were tied up on other assignments, and we 62 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,319 did have a running joke that between the two of us, 63 00:04:25,319 --> 00:04:29,160 so we worked for two different papers, but were between 64 00:04:29,199 --> 00:04:31,680 the two of us. We had the story covered in 65 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,319 print and photo. But then as the months progressed more 66 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,759 and more reporters came on the scene. 67 00:04:39,079 --> 00:04:42,519 Speaker 2: My family's from the Lowell, Massachusetts, And I remember when 68 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,839 this story was happening, which is nineteen eighty eight, how 69 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,480 much press there was, and there was a tremendous amount 70 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,800 of coverage. I was probably reading some of your stuff. 71 00:04:52,079 --> 00:04:54,839 Would you get picked up then and carried in other 72 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:55,839 papers as well? 73 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: It would have been the Associated Press would have picked 74 00:04:59,079 --> 00:05:01,040 up the stories and carried them. 75 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: Now, were you always a crime reporter? 76 00:05:04,439 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: When I started in New Bedford, I was working in 77 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,800 a town, then very quickly became their police reporter. Then 78 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:13,839 for a brief period of time, I was general assignment. 79 00:05:13,879 --> 00:05:16,879 Actually when this case broke, I was general assignment covering 80 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,240 of all things politics, which I have to say is 81 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,920 pretty boring, it really is. But because I was still 82 00:05:26,079 --> 00:05:29,079 a general assignment, I just moved right into this case. 83 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 3: There are probably going to be some of our listeners 84 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,639 who have not heard of the New Bedford Highway serial killer. 85 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,839 Until Bill put your book on my radar, I had 86 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:42,680 not heard of it. Can you take a couple of minutes, 87 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,079 while we're still at the top of the conversation and 88 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,360 just give us a quick rundown for anybody who's not familiar. 89 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,040 What is the New Bedford Highway serial killing case all about? 90 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,399 Speaker 1: Well, it started in March April of nineteen eighty eight. 91 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,480 That was when some the women began and disappearing. Between 92 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,920 March and April and September of nineteen eighty eight, eleven 93 00:06:04,959 --> 00:06:08,560 women went missing from New Bedford. Nine of them were 94 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,879 eventually found dead near or along local highways, the highways 95 00:06:13,879 --> 00:06:17,079 that circled New Bedford. None of the women were found 96 00:06:17,399 --> 00:06:20,800 inside New Bedford proper. Two of the eleven women are 97 00:06:20,879 --> 00:06:25,160 still missing. People have a tendency even around here thinking 98 00:06:25,199 --> 00:06:28,639 that the killer was active for a much longer period 99 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,800 of time because the bodies weren't found until all the 100 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,560 bodies weren't found until spring of eighty nine. Then there 101 00:06:37,639 --> 00:06:41,600 was a lengthy investigation and a grand jury investigation as 102 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,879 the district attorney was trying to get some potential witness 103 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,759 testimony on the record before a grand jury. This was 104 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:54,160 a very tight killing spray. So you've got just from 105 00:06:54,439 --> 00:06:57,959 roughly March April until September of eighty eight, and two 106 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,079 of the women are still missing. They are presumed dead. 107 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,879 So you had eleven missing, nine found. All of the women. 108 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,160 The link between all of the women. In addition to 109 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,079 most of them had some more height and weight, but 110 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,920 they were all addicted to drugs. That was the link 111 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,319 between all of them. Some of them did have criminal 112 00:07:17,319 --> 00:07:20,720 records for prostitution, but not all of them. 113 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: Although the thread of sex work is one of the 114 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,319 through lines. In other words, not that all eleven women 115 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,920 were involved in sex work, but a fair number of 116 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:31,839 the victims were. 117 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: Yes, But we have to keep in mind, especially in 118 00:07:35,399 --> 00:07:38,439 New Bedford, those that are working, the women that were 119 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,279 working in the street, they were there because of their addiction. 120 00:07:42,839 --> 00:07:46,279 That is the only reason why there was nothing romantic 121 00:07:46,399 --> 00:07:50,120 about it. There is this image when people use the 122 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,519 term sex work. People have this image of women coming 123 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:56,199 in and out of hotels, wearing high heels and dressed 124 00:07:56,279 --> 00:07:58,759 nicely and this sort of thing. The women that were 125 00:07:58,759 --> 00:08:01,600 on the street in nineteen eighty New Bedford were there 126 00:08:01,879 --> 00:08:05,160 only because of their addiction. Once they got into recovery, 127 00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:08,800 they were not there at all. Every penny that they 128 00:08:08,839 --> 00:08:11,639 made went right to buying drugs. 129 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:13,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was one of the women that I was 130 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,079 reading about as I was going through and tracking all 131 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,000 of the different victims, and it said that she was 132 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,279 only doing this to feed her habit, that she was married, 133 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:27,639 that her husband didn't even realize that she was doing this, 134 00:08:28,199 --> 00:08:30,240 and the only reason that she was doing it at 135 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:33,240 all was because the amount of money she could charge 136 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,559 for such sex work was related to the amount of 137 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,679 money it costs to get the drug that she wanted, 138 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,200 and that for some reason or another, it did not 139 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,240 occur to me. I have the same stereotype I think 140 00:08:44,279 --> 00:08:46,039 in my head that a lot of people do that's 141 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,320 put there by Hollywood. Like you just said, high heels, hotels. 142 00:08:50,799 --> 00:08:52,759 It didn't occur to me that might be a reason 143 00:08:52,879 --> 00:08:56,279 someone might turn to sex work. So I really enjoyed 144 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,720 that you were able to put that out there and 145 00:08:58,759 --> 00:09:01,840 that you were able to like be very compassionate towards 146 00:09:01,879 --> 00:09:04,840 these women, because it's really obvious that they didn't want 147 00:09:04,879 --> 00:09:07,240 to be having to feed this habit that way. 148 00:09:07,879 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the women that did eventually wind up on 149 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,200 the street, the reason they head prior to that. Not 150 00:09:14,279 --> 00:09:16,879 necessarily all of these women, but a lot of the 151 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:19,200 women who were on who owned up on the street, 152 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,799 their previous criminal records were things like bad checks, shoplifting, 153 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,679 things like that, and that you could see a progression 154 00:09:27,919 --> 00:09:31,879 in their crimes, most more like crimes against themselves, not 155 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,759 against other people as their habits got worse. 156 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: And then let's talk about New Bedford for a second. 157 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,639 For our listeners who are around the country and even 158 00:09:40,639 --> 00:09:44,399 around the world who've never been to New Bedford, Massachusetts, 159 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,360 tell us a little bit about what New Bedford is 160 00:09:47,519 --> 00:09:49,360 like or was in the nineteen eighties. 161 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: New Bedford is a lovely, lovely city. I cannot say 162 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,600 enough good things about it. It's a waterfront community, the 163 00:09:57,639 --> 00:10:03,960 country's largest fishing ports, very close knit families, a close 164 00:10:04,039 --> 00:10:10,000 knit community, a lot of first second third generation immigrants, multicultural, 165 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,000 just a nice place. When I lived there, I absolutely 166 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:19,879 loved living there. Great restaurants, great people, good people. Yes, 167 00:10:19,919 --> 00:10:23,399 it has crime, but all cities have crime. Compared to 168 00:10:23,519 --> 00:10:27,159 other cities, I would say the crime is fairly low. 169 00:10:27,639 --> 00:10:30,440 When you live in a city, generally, and you're from 170 00:10:30,519 --> 00:10:34,279 a city, people have a tendency to be hypercritical of 171 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,200 their own hometown. But I have seen other cities that 172 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,720 are very harsh, and New Bedford does not have that 173 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,200 harshness to it. In nineteen eighty eight, it was a 174 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:50,360 bit isolated because it's so far from Boston. One politician 175 00:10:50,759 --> 00:10:53,039 it was in I believe it was nineteen eighty four, 176 00:10:53,399 --> 00:10:57,320 had called New Bedford the end of the universe, Southeastern 177 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,919 Massachusetts the end of the universe, a view from the 178 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,600 politicians in Boston because it was so far away. It 179 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:07,799 was it's only like an hour and a half because 180 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,039 and most of that is because of traffic, maybe two hours. 181 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,639 So the city was always a bit isolated, and during 182 00:11:14,639 --> 00:11:17,799 that period of time, New Bedford was a bit isolated. 183 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,679 It was more aligned with Providence and the Cape. A 184 00:11:22,799 --> 00:11:26,799 very large number of people were employed in the fishing industry, 185 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,759 in the trades. There had at one point been a 186 00:11:29,879 --> 00:11:33,919 very thriving textile industry, but that of course faded very 187 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:35,720 quickly in the nineteen eighties. 188 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:43,279 Speaker 3: Is there any particular reason why the drug trade seemed 189 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:47,080 to be thriving so much in New Bedford? It sounds 190 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,320 the drugs and the addiction were really the biggest part 191 00:11:49,399 --> 00:11:50,600 of the problem here. 192 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: Why might that be? 193 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,919 Speaker 3: Did it have anything to do with drug running coming 194 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,080 in from fishing boats? What was contributing to this drug 195 00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:59,480 epidemic in New Bedford? 196 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: And That's what I had always wondered about and had 197 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:07,399 asked some of the narcotics older narcotics guys, and they 198 00:12:07,799 --> 00:12:12,159 said that they noticed the heroin trade picking up in 199 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,879 the nineteen sixties nineteen seventies when they were seeing some 200 00:12:17,159 --> 00:12:21,399 programs that had started in the city where people from 201 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:25,440 New York were coming into the city. For whatever reason, 202 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,440 someone decided that was the place to be. Because I 203 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,639 could never quite and we're talking about heroin, I could 204 00:12:32,639 --> 00:12:37,240 not understand why you didn't have the same serious heroin 205 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,039 problem in Fall River. That is a city that's mostly 206 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:47,840 known for an axe murderer as Lizzie Morton. And it 207 00:12:47,919 --> 00:12:50,840 seemed that the heroin when it was coming in by car, 208 00:12:50,919 --> 00:12:53,279 they were driving right through Fall River and coming into 209 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,159 New Bedford. And that just seems a bit odd, but 210 00:12:57,399 --> 00:13:01,039 that's how it was. Someone had I did that was 211 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:04,360 the place for the heroin trade, and then to move 212 00:13:04,399 --> 00:13:08,559 out from there. Marijuana during the nineteen eighties was coming 213 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,600 in by boat through some of the fishing boats. Large 214 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:15,440 bales of marijuana were coming in, But the main problem 215 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,759 drug during that period of time was heroin. 216 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 3: What ultimately made you decide it's time to write a 217 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,799 book about this case, because as we all know, writing 218 00:13:25,799 --> 00:13:29,399 a book is a massive undertaking. You're probably better equipped 219 00:13:29,399 --> 00:13:31,639 for it than most people, because you had done all 220 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,039 of this writing and reporting on the case. But what 221 00:13:34,279 --> 00:13:37,120 finally tipped you over to I think it's time to 222 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:38,960 do the book of record on the case. 223 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 1: If you will. You're never fully equipped to do a 224 00:13:41,639 --> 00:13:45,320 book forever. I think it's going to be hard, and 225 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,159 then it is even harder than you ever thought, And 226 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,360 I'm glad I didn't know how hard it was going 227 00:13:50,399 --> 00:13:53,399 to be. I had always wanted, in a planned to 228 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,600 write a book on the case, but I kept on 229 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,320 waiting for it to be solved, right because everyone wants 230 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,720 everything story to be tied up in a neat package. 231 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:06,080 That's what readers want. I kept on waiting for it 232 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,240 and waiting for it and waiting for it because I 233 00:14:08,279 --> 00:14:11,559 was convinced, of course, this case is going to be solved. 234 00:14:12,039 --> 00:14:15,000 No one can get away with these many murders, especially 235 00:14:15,039 --> 00:14:17,639 not in a place like New Bedford, where people cannot 236 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,399 keep secrets. They really can't. And because everyone's married to 237 00:14:21,799 --> 00:14:24,759 someone's cousin, or they've gone to high school with someone, 238 00:14:25,039 --> 00:14:28,360 or they're talking in bars, people would find out who 239 00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:31,519 the killer was, and it never happened. So it was 240 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:35,840 year after year after year after year and I was 241 00:14:35,879 --> 00:14:40,480 having some conversations with people, I discovered that number of people, 242 00:14:40,639 --> 00:14:45,639 even in the city, were misremembering what happened. Some people 243 00:14:45,679 --> 00:14:49,080 thought the killer was found, some people thought that he 244 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,600 was convicted. They were forgetting who was the victims. And 245 00:14:53,639 --> 00:14:56,679 that's one of the reasons why I decided to write 246 00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:00,840 the book. Also, because it hasn't been solved. I wanted 247 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,240 to put a spotlight on the case so that more 248 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,000 people could come forward and say, this is who the 249 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,559 killer is, because I am firmly convinced that there is 250 00:15:09,679 --> 00:15:15,200 someone out there who knows who the killer is. That said, 251 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,240 what's also very frightening is the number of people that 252 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,559 I've spoken to since the book came out who have said, oh, 253 00:15:22,679 --> 00:15:25,080 I know who the killer is, and it's their brother 254 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,399 or their father, or their boyfriend or their ex boyfriend 255 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:31,799 or their neighbor. And it really is an eye opener 256 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,759 that there is a potential of so much evil out 257 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:38,679 there that someone would think this person could be the 258 00:15:38,759 --> 00:15:42,159 killer of eleven women. It was a challenge writing the 259 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,200 ending to the book because there was no ending, and 260 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,159 then I just took a step back and realized, sometimes 261 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,600 life isn't meat, and life does go on even in 262 00:15:53,759 --> 00:15:56,879 the wake of just such horror, so that you have 263 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,399 to how does a community heal, how does a family 264 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,639 go on? That's part of the story. 265 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,679 Speaker 2: How did people react? Now the book came out several 266 00:16:05,759 --> 00:16:09,799 years ago in twenty seventeen. How did people react When 267 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,279 the book came out and people had a chance to 268 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,399 go back and revisit the whole case. But as a 269 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,440 result of Shallow Graves coming out. 270 00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:23,039 Speaker 1: They reacted very well. Both the police, the attorney's office, 271 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,279 families overall, a very good reaction. Anyone who was tied 272 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,919 to the case had a very good reaction to it. 273 00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:36,919 Speaker 3: You did a really wonderful job highlighting the dogged pursuit 274 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,000 of this killer from the law enforcement side. Every single 275 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,159 law enforcement agent that came up in the book. I 276 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,320 was like, boy, I would love to meet these people 277 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,799 and have a beer with them. They sound terrific. How 278 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:52,240 much access did you have to them? Were they all 279 00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:55,320 like absolutely, yes, I will share everything with you, or 280 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,399 was there any resistance on their part to having the 281 00:16:58,399 --> 00:16:59,000 book written? 282 00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:03,519 Speaker 1: Any resistance to having the book written. I will say 283 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:07,559 that Josie Gonzalz, who was one of the state police investigators, 284 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,000 he was very careful about what information that he gave me. 285 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,559 When I interviewed him, he was already retired, but he 286 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,640 is still a state trooper right to the end, and 287 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,759 he would have his reports or copies of his reports 288 00:17:23,759 --> 00:17:25,359 in front of him, and he'd be going through with 289 00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:28,720 answering my questions. I said, can I look at the reports? No? No, 290 00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:34,519 But he was. But some other people were very good 291 00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:38,359 at also sharing some of their old reports. 292 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 2: Were there ever people that you wanted to talk to 293 00:17:41,519 --> 00:17:43,240 that refused to speak to you? 294 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,039 Speaker 1: One of the suspects family members, And I think that 295 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,480 was it. Most of the people that I wanted to 296 00:17:52,519 --> 00:17:57,680 talk to were very cooperative. Even the priest, who was 297 00:17:58,079 --> 00:18:01,839 one of the last people to have seen one of 298 00:18:01,279 --> 00:18:04,240 the suspects in the case. I did to talk with 299 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:05,839 him and he was very helpful. 300 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 3: When you're talking to family members of the victims, it's 301 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,319 very painful and very difficult for them to relive what 302 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,200 is got to be one of the worst emotional shocks 303 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,880 of their life. Did it ultimately feel like a good 304 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,440 experience for you and for them to be able to 305 00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:24,799 talk and work through here's this terrible thing that happened, 306 00:18:24,839 --> 00:18:26,720 and here's how we have lived with it since then 307 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,519 this is going to be so painful for them, especially 308 00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:33,440 because it is still unsolved. Do you feel like working 309 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:36,599 with the victims' families was good for you and did 310 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:37,160 it bring. 311 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: You some sort of emotional closure with the whole entire thing. 312 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,359 I wouldn't say closure, what it was more of a 313 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,319 shared purpose. They knew what we were, what the book 314 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,559 was about. They knew that how I was portraying their 315 00:18:51,599 --> 00:18:54,759 loved ones and the information that I was looking for 316 00:18:55,079 --> 00:18:59,720 to present a whole person, not a caricature that was 317 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,599 trade in some of the media back in eighty eighty 318 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,160 nine and ninety even into ninety one. I was looking 319 00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:10,640 for something deeper. These are families, and these are how 320 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,920 families had to deal with addyption, how they had to 321 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,079 overcome their frustration when they were trying to get their 322 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,519 loved one's help, and the grief that they felt when 323 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,359 it all came down to a killer taking away the 324 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,960 hope that they had for a better wife, for their mother, sister, daughter. 325 00:19:29,799 --> 00:19:33,079 Speaker 2: Where we stand now in twenty twenty five, Mornene, do 326 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,559 you believe that the murder and the disappearance of eleven 327 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,240 women altogether? Do you think those cases are all related 328 00:19:40,319 --> 00:19:41,960 and there's one single killer. 329 00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: If it isn't one, it would be two people working 330 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:46,079 in concert. 331 00:19:46,599 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 2: In your mind, not much chance that these are overlapping 332 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,559 cases or anything like that. You're thinking, this is one 333 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,960 or two people who killed this cluster of eleven women 334 00:19:58,279 --> 00:20:00,440 over a fairly short period of time. Time. 335 00:20:01,039 --> 00:20:04,319 Speaker 1: Yes, some people have asked me in the past, could 336 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,960 be a copycat, and the answer to that would be no, 337 00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:12,400 because there was no publicity when the women first went missing. 338 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:15,839 The first two victims that were found there were found 339 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,480 in July of nineteen eighty eight. It involved a woman 340 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,160 who went missing in the spring and a woman who 341 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,799 had gone missing in July. When those two bodies were 342 00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:29,160 found in two different towns along the highways, it didn't 343 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,000 get a lot of press at the time. During that 344 00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:34,960 period of time, other women were going missing or they 345 00:20:35,079 --> 00:20:40,200 reported missing, but no alarms really went off until much 346 00:20:40,319 --> 00:20:43,920 later in the fall of that year. There was only 347 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,960 two bodies that were found early on, so there wasn't 348 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:49,920 a copycat per se at that point. 349 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,279 Speaker 2: One of the things that you mentioned in the book 350 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:56,200 was that of the nine victims that were found, they 351 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:01,559 were all outside the city limits of New Bedford. Is 352 00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:07,119 that really significant. Is someone really trying to drop these 353 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,480 bodies off in a place where the New Bedford Police 354 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,759 Department would not be the investigating agency or is that 355 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,039 just a coincidence in your opinion. 356 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: That's a very good question, and that is something that 357 00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:21,759 a number of the investigators looked at. That is one 358 00:21:21,799 --> 00:21:24,720 of the theories. Is it's someone who did not, for 359 00:21:24,759 --> 00:21:28,160 whatever reason, did not want New Bedford to investigate the case. 360 00:21:28,839 --> 00:21:33,119 They just wanted it away from the city. Another theory 361 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,599 is that the person wasn't familiar enough with New Bedford 362 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,799 and felt much more comfortable in the outlying areas. Would 363 00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:44,039 be someone who might live in one of the smaller towns. 364 00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:47,119 Even though New Bedford is a city, it's a small 365 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,319 and it's a small city, but if you're from a 366 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,839 much smaller town that you may be overwhelmed by even 367 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,759 a city such as New Bedford. So that was one 368 00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:00,559 of one of the theories in one of issues that 369 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:03,599 they looked at. And then it goes to the question 370 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:07,400 was it a cop? And that is also one of 371 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,839 the theories. Was this say someone involved in law enforcement 372 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,119 was responsible for the murders. Was it a cop or 373 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,359 is it someone else involved in a law enforcement, someone 374 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,000 who is wearing a uniform, someone who has a badge, 375 00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:22,799 and when you look at the number of people who 376 00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:26,720 have badges who are not technically cops, there's a lot 377 00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:29,920 of them. We've got people from a sheriff's department as 378 00:22:30,039 --> 00:22:32,720 one of the main suspects in the case early on, 379 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,000 as an attorney who was also a deputy sheriff in 380 00:22:37,079 --> 00:22:38,880 the Bristol County Sheriff's Department. 381 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 3: There was a very interesting little I don't think it's 382 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,519 big enough to be a rabbit hole. We're just going 383 00:22:55,599 --> 00:22:57,599 to call it a little side street that you went 384 00:22:57,759 --> 00:23:01,359 down at one point, and it is a discussion of 385 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,960 snuff films. I do know that we're gonna have listeners 386 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,000 who aren't familiar with the term snuff film. Can you 387 00:23:08,039 --> 00:23:10,839 explain what a snuff film is and how that rumor 388 00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:13,640 of it came up and got involved in the case, 389 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,640 because I can't think of another case outside of like 390 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,920 CSI or something like that where the term snuff film 391 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,240 even gets brought up. 392 00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:23,759 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about that. A 393 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:27,640 snuff film is a film where someone is it's almost 394 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,200 like a porno film of sorts, but the person is murdered. 395 00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:35,759 It is literally they's snuffed out. There were rumors throughout 396 00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:38,839 the city around that time that someone who is making 397 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:43,240 porno films, hardcore porno films. No, that was one aspect 398 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,720 of the investigation, and then there was rumors that there 399 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,319 were snuff films, and so they're scrambling all all around 400 00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:55,839 one of the Stay Troopers, Josie Ganzels, who is they 401 00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:59,759 have to say, he is just a very devout catholic. 402 00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:06,680 So they went to an old video store this is 403 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,519 when video was big, and they went through all they 404 00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:13,599 took out a halt of their hardcore porn films to 405 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,640 see if there was any homemade snuff films. And poor 406 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:23,000 Josie had to watch all of them. Oh my course, 407 00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:26,759 and he's watching them not of what's going on, to 408 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:30,039 see if he recognizes any of the faces here are 409 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:34,920 in And nothing came out of that. However, that rumor persisted, 410 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,759 and there was one woman who made some allegations that 411 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,359 there was this videotape was stolen from one of the 412 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,839 suspects homes and they planted it in a planter, a 413 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,039 flower pop. Everyone was running around in circles trying to 414 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:56,599 find this mysterious videotape and until a until another member 415 00:24:56,599 --> 00:25:00,680 of the state police was listening to the woman and 416 00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:06,119 realized that they were not talking about snuff films. What 417 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,240 they're really talking about was smut films. 418 00:25:10,839 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: Oh old fashion. 419 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,319 Speaker 1: So you're talking about and this is where accents come 420 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:23,440 into play. It's and that's a rabbit hole. So this 421 00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:26,680 woman is talking about snuff films, and then as they're 422 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,839 circling back to who's talking to who and talking to who, 423 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:35,039 and it is smut rather than snuff. Oh my gosh. 424 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I got to this scene where he is sitting 425 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:41,359 there having to watch stacks of porno films after he's 426 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,440 had dinner with his kids and put his kids to bed. 427 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:45,799 Speaker 1: Like that. 428 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, the things that the agents assigned this case 429 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,519 we're going through. You really just did a wonderful job 430 00:25:53,599 --> 00:25:56,559 painting like this is what it is like for an investigator. 431 00:25:56,599 --> 00:25:59,799 It is not glamorous. It is not a job that 432 00:25:59,839 --> 00:26:02,039 you get to do nine to five. You don't get 433 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:04,440 to do it all glamorously dressed up. As Bill always 434 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,240 jokes when we're talking about CSI, there's not one scene 435 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,599 where they're just getting a bag of snack food from 436 00:26:09,839 --> 00:26:12,839 seven to eleven to hit the road and keep circulating 437 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,599 and talking to people. You really get the sense of 438 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:18,119 this is a very difficult job. 439 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,079 Speaker 1: And I used to run into both Josie and Mariandel 440 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,119 Josie gones Offs and Mariannel with the two primary state 441 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,359 police investigators on the case. And at that time, the 442 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,839 Standard Times was an afternoon paper, so I would be 443 00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:33,319 in at seven and do my stories and then go 444 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,119 out and report. And I would often see them that 445 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,720 night because I'd be looking for some people on the street, 446 00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:40,720 particularly some of the girls who are on the street. 447 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,720 Just see what they're hearing, what they're what they've seen. 448 00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:47,839 I'd always swing by the DA's office, and the seven 449 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,559 eleven was downstairs from the DA's office, and I would 450 00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:54,319 see them out there with their junk food coming out 451 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,319 to get back into their on mark cruiser. They were 452 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,799 working long, long hours at that time. Their dinner was 453 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:01,400 not good. 454 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 2: No, I can imagine it's not the healthiest lifestyle with 455 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,559 the long hours and eating junk food in your unmarked car. 456 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:14,039 Speaker 1: And everyone in the street knew the two of them, 457 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,319 because both of them were very pleasant and very nice people. 458 00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:19,920 So just when they would pull up and I know, 459 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,440 there's one scene in the book where they pulled up 460 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,039 and some of the girls who were out there run 461 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,920 off until they realized who it was and then say, oh, 462 00:27:28,519 --> 00:27:29,960 come back to talk with them. 463 00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:33,279 Speaker 2: There has to be a delicate dance here, because if 464 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:38,319 the investigators are talking to people that are involved, in 465 00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:42,359 many examples with sex work and the sale and distribution 466 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,119 of drugs, so we're talking about people that are clearly 467 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,640 breaking the law. The investigators aren't there to bust people 468 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,759 for drugs or sex work. They're trying to solve a murder. 469 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,359 There has to be a real delicate dance there. How 470 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,200 do you convince people who are on their fringes of 471 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,160 society to talk to you when you're not there to 472 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,519 bust them for other behaviors. You're really trying to solve 473 00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:10,440 a series of mantolved murder. 474 00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 1: And that comes down to trust. They trusted the individuals 475 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,079 who were working the case. Now, both Marion and Josie, 476 00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:21,119 the two state troopers, they were the primary on the case, 477 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,279 but there were many other people that were also working 478 00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:27,079 other aspects of the case. They approached it as we're 479 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,720 looking for who the killer is. We're not here to 480 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,640 arrest you for this right now, you're not in trouble 481 00:28:34,759 --> 00:28:37,480 because they knew that to get to the heart of 482 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:41,519 what happened, they had to go into that world and 483 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,200 they had to earn the trust of the people that 484 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,640 were in that world, and that's what they did, and 485 00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:49,480 unfortunately it still wasn't enough. 486 00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:53,039 Speaker 3: The law enforcement side of things, it really looks like 487 00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:57,480 they did everything they could conceivably do. So why do 488 00:28:57,559 --> 00:29:03,039 you think the new Bedford murder remain unsolved? As you 489 00:29:03,319 --> 00:29:08,079 said earlier, this person has held nine women presumably two 490 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,640 more who are still missing, eleven total. 491 00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 1: How do you go that long uncaught? Why do you 492 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,799 think this is still unsolved to this day. I think 493 00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:20,720 part of it has to do with the time when 494 00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:24,480 it happened. We're talking nineteen eighty eight, and that was 495 00:29:24,519 --> 00:29:27,240 a period of time when we did not have where 496 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,759 everyone didn't have a mini computer in their pocket, everyone 497 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:35,480 did not have a cell phone, There wasn't social media. 498 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,000 The surveillance cameras were really poor quality, and they were 499 00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:44,079 mostly at gas stations. And the reason they were at 500 00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:47,480 gas stations is because people used to rob gas stations 501 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:51,680 and convenience stores, and they were at banks. Today there 502 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,400 are surveillance cameras everywhere. If it happened today, the women 503 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,920 most likely would have had a cell phone on them 504 00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:01,240 and they would have been able to track where they were, 505 00:30:01,839 --> 00:30:05,079 who they last had contact with, and see who else 506 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,920 might have been in that area. One of the other 507 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,759 problems with the case was by the time the investigation started, 508 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,480 the killer had already stopped. Is believed that the killer 509 00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:19,000 stopped in September of that year. 510 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: Was there any sent among the investigators you talked to 511 00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:25,279 as to why the murders appeared to stop. 512 00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:29,839 Speaker 1: They had several different theories. One was the killer was dead. 513 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:33,440 Another was that he was a fisherman from down south 514 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,200 and a sword fisherman and had come up to New 515 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,079 Bedford for the summer, spring and summer and had gone 516 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:45,720 back left the area. That was another theory. Another theory 517 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,599 was that he was in prison. There was another theory 518 00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:54,279 that he may have left the country or he had 519 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,720 just stopped for whatever reason. Many people seem to think 520 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,440 that serial killers just continue killing at a frenzy rate 521 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,720 all the time, but they do have cooling off periods, 522 00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:10,079 and for whatever reason, a serial killer can stop for 523 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,839 a period of time. That may have happened here. They 524 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,559 don't kill every single day. 525 00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 2: Something we mentioned to you off air was that we 526 00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:22,880 had received a tip last year from a woman who 527 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:28,079 believed there was a connection between a waterman from Virginia 528 00:31:28,559 --> 00:31:31,720 who she thought might be involved in the Colonial Parkway murders, 529 00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:36,960 who interestingly moved to New Bedford continuing his work on 530 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,759 the water in nineteen eighty eight and would have been 531 00:31:39,799 --> 00:31:43,359 there right at the time that the murders started. Now, 532 00:31:43,359 --> 00:31:46,240 this guy has an extensive history of violence and his 533 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,720 ex wife in this example, he was deceased by the 534 00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:53,519 time she and I spoke last year, but very interesting 535 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,119 given how much she knew about him and their life together, 536 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,839 which doesn't sound very pleasant. And then he ends up 537 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:04,759 to New Bedford given his proclivities. It was very eye 538 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:07,640 opening for Kristen and me to hear from this woman. 539 00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:11,480 If we were to pursue that tip, we then have 540 00:32:11,599 --> 00:32:16,599 to go back to the cold case detectives from Massachusetts 541 00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:18,680 State Police. They're handling the case now. 542 00:32:18,839 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: Yes, their number would be five oh eight nine six one, 543 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:29,160 nineteen fourteen, and that would be Sergeant Hollis Crowley was 544 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:34,279 in charge. The email would be Hollis dot Crowley crow 545 00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:40,319 l e Y at pol dot state, dot MA, dot US. 546 00:32:40,559 --> 00:32:44,640 People can also call this state police directly on a 547 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,759 line called MASSOLF. It would be eight five five six 548 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:53,000 two seven six five eight three. That'd be eight five 549 00:32:53,119 --> 00:32:54,599 five MSLF. 550 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,119 Speaker 2: When we were talking about the bodies being found outside 551 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,680 New Bedford, New Bedford PD wasn't the lead agency, it 552 00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:07,240 sounds like in most of this investigation. So how is 553 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,039 it that it's the Massachusetts State Police and not local 554 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:11,440 law enforcement. 555 00:33:11,519 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: In Massachusetts has to do with the way they do 556 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,720 things in Massachusetts. Each of the District attorney's offices has 557 00:33:18,759 --> 00:33:22,200 a state police unit assigned to them, and the state 558 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,000 police has jurisdiction for the most part of all of 559 00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:28,960 the homicides in the state. With the exception of a 560 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,079 few cities like Boston, the state police do not have 561 00:33:33,359 --> 00:33:37,599 the primary investigation and homicides in Boston. So these state 562 00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:42,319 police are the primary investigators in the homicides, and they 563 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,559 work with the local police departments in the case they 564 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,519 pair up when they're covering these now in this case 565 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:54,519 to complicate the investigation. To go back to Kristen's question 566 00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:57,519 about how things are different in some of the challenges. 567 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,079 The bodies were found in the town of Retown, which 568 00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:03,680 is a town north of New Bedford that was a 569 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,159 small town at the time. Dartmouth, which is to the west. 570 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,159 Three of the bodies were found in Dartmouth. That was 571 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,679 for the bodies. For the bodies were found in Dartmouth, 572 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,840 which is to the west, the town west of New Bedford. 573 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,840 There was a body found in Westport, which is one 574 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,119 town over from Dartmouth, and then there was another body 575 00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:28,800 that was found in Marion, which is in a completely 576 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,639 different county, a couple of towns over from New Bedford. 577 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,760 Most of the bodies were found right along the highway, 578 00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:40,719 just inside the brush line, so that you wouldn't have 579 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,039 seen them if you're driving by. But if, let's say 580 00:34:44,119 --> 00:34:47,159 someone pulled over, is what happened in at least two 581 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:49,320 of the cases pulled over to the side of the 582 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,239 road to quote unquote use the facilities that is how 583 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,800 the bodies could be discovered. And a couple of cases 584 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,960 it was highway cleanup cruise found bodies. Some other cases, 585 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,320 especially trained dogs that were brought in from the other bodies. 586 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,960 One of the bodies that was found in Westport, which 587 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,400 is unusual, it was found on a road in the 588 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,280 brush on a road that goes to a state beach, 589 00:35:15,639 --> 00:35:18,960 a beautiful beach cult Horseneck Beach, and to get there 590 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,280 you would take a road off of one ninety five, 591 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,760 which was the highway that most of the bodies were 592 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,719 found on. My theory is that the killer had planned 593 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,519 to dump that body on one ninety five, but for 594 00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:36,599 whatever reason, he got spooked and kept on driving and 595 00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:40,199 took that exit and wound up on this other secondary 596 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,079 highway and dumped Mary Rose Santos's body on Threw eighty 597 00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:45,239 eight and Westport. 598 00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: How were these women killed? 599 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: Do we know? At least two of them they were 600 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:53,960 they believed were strangled, and they believe all of them were. 601 00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:58,679 The rest of them was quote unquote inconclusive just because 602 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,920 of the deterior of the remains, But they believe that 603 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,159 two of them were strangled based on what they found. 604 00:36:06,559 --> 00:36:09,400 There was clothing wrapped around their necks. 605 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 3: So are you still keeping an ear to the ground 606 00:36:12,639 --> 00:36:15,639 on the new Bedford case? Will you be one of 607 00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:18,119 the first to know if it does get solved. Do 608 00:36:18,199 --> 00:36:21,079 you still have people inside the law enforcement community who 609 00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:23,400 would give you a heads up if there's something that 610 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:24,760 broke I. 611 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: Hope so, I hope so. But obviously the first people 612 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,679 to know would be those at ours have solved it, 613 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,320 and that would they would be the first, and I 614 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,239 would hope the second would be the families. And I 615 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,719 am convinced that once they identify who the killer is. 616 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,960 And I am convinced at some point they will identify 617 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,320 the killer. I don't know when. I didn't think it 618 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,519 would take over thirty years, but they will look back 619 00:36:48,679 --> 00:36:51,599 in their records and they will find the name of 620 00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:55,559 that person. I really think that they have cross paths 621 00:36:55,639 --> 00:37:00,320 with the killer at some point during the investigation. And 622 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,920 why here's another reason why it was also so difficult 623 00:37:04,039 --> 00:37:07,280 to solve. They didn't have PCs the way we have 624 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,760 them today. You didn't have a searchable databases like we 625 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,840 have now. People were typing reports. 626 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 2: And even hand and even handwriting reports. We found this 627 00:37:19,039 --> 00:37:22,079 in the Colonial Parkway murders as well. There's there were 628 00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:26,119 five thousand documents in Kathy, my sister Kathy and her 629 00:37:26,159 --> 00:37:30,119 girlfriend Rebecca's part of the Colonial Parkway murders. Five thousand 630 00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:34,159 documents in two thousand and ten, and it's probably many 631 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,760 more since then. So they said that cross referencing was 632 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,719 incredibly difficult. 633 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: And that's the same here they were starting to computerize 634 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,639 the records. Lui Pachico, who was in charge of the 635 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,840 Drug Task Force at that point assigned to the DA's office. 636 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,119 He was starting to put the records onto a computer, 637 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,599 but it really and now there's I'm sure at this 638 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,559 point they've also scanned reports and things like that to 639 00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:05,960 make it searchable. Maybe hopefully something will pop up. But 640 00:38:06,079 --> 00:38:08,920 that was also another reason, or less you could they 641 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,960 had to rely very much on people's experiences, investigators experiences 642 00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:14,000 and their memories. 643 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,639 Speaker 3: I know you said that writing a book is terribly difficult, 644 00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:20,199 and we've both tried it, so we know if we 645 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,960 agree with you. Do you have another book that you're 646 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,559 working on or was one enough? 647 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,639 Speaker 1: Since then, I wrote two other books. One was called 648 00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:31,960 The Ghost the Murder of Police Chief Craig Adams and 649 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,079 The Hunt Forest Killer. That was about a Pennsylvania police 650 00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:39,079 chief who was killed by a individual from a criminal 651 00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:42,559 from New Bedford who was in the town of Saxonburg 652 00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:46,000 and Butler County in Pennsylvania, Western Pennsylvania, who was scouting 653 00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:49,159 out some jewelry stores to rob and then this guy 654 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,760 just disappeared for years, even though he was on the 655 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,159 FBI's Most Wanted List, and then my book after that 656 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:01,400 was Child Last Scene, which was about the disappearance of 657 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,480 a sixteen year old girl in Pennsyl, Western Pennsylvania. They 658 00:39:05,519 --> 00:39:09,000 had a suspect in that case, and it wasn't until 659 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:11,639 someone came forward that they were able to solve the 660 00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:15,840 case years and years later and finally locates a child. 661 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,920 And right now I'm writing about another It wasn't quite 662 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,239 a cold, cold case, but it's about a fifteen year 663 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,599 old girl who was abducted by a convicted serial killer 664 00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:30,400 and killed, and is the long quest for justice in 665 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:31,000 that case. 666 00:39:31,519 --> 00:39:34,679 Speaker 3: Oh, that sounds fascinating. Do you have a publication date 667 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,199 for that yet? Or are you still working on it? 668 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:37,400 Am still working on it? 669 00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:41,079 Speaker 1: Marine? Tell us where everybody can find your book. The 670 00:39:41,079 --> 00:39:44,880 book can be found Barnes Noble. If they don't have 671 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,280 it in stock, they can order it on Amazon and 672 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,679 any of your local bookstores can order it for you. 673 00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:55,199 And a million, I believe can't forget books a million. 674 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 3: The book is Shallow Graves The Hunt for the New 675 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:03,199 Bedford Highway serial Killer. Maureene, thank you for joining us. 676 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,480 We really appreciate you shedding some light on the case, 677 00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:08,679 and thank you both for having me on the show. 678 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,920 I really appreciate it, and thank you so much for 679 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,159 sharing the story of all these women who were killed 680 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,239 in the two that are still missing. That is going 681 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,920 to do it. For this episode of Mind Over Murder. 682 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,840 We will put a link to Marine's book onto those 683 00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:26,920 phone numbers four tips in our show notes. 684 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,679 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.