WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.680 --> 00:00:04.759 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingana Show. Thomas, Hey, 2 00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:05.679 how are you done. 3 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:08.519 I'm doing very well. Thanks for hosting me. 4 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:13.400 Of course. Well, this is a subject that came out 5 00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:17.480 of a Twitter conversation, but it's a subject that I've 6 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:19.800 talked about a lot in the past, and I know 7 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:24.160 you have some very strong opinions on. So let's get 8 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:27.640 into this. Let's talk about the police. 9 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:34.719 The thing to keep in mind is that modern policing 10 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:44.280 it's it's it's as structured like as we conceptualize it 11 00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:49.039 here in the United States, is a subject of recent vintage. 12 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:51.880 People seem to this idea. I mean, there's all kinds 13 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:55.920 of mythologies are on the modern state that somewhat deliberately 14 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.479 have been cultivated to try and seeing it in the teable, 15 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:02.920 this idea that these features are perennial, like structurally, I 16 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:08.000 mean as well as ethically, when they're not. So when 17 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:11.599 you raise the issue with people that modern policing is 18 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.439 kind of run its course and it's kind of being 19 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:16.200 phased out, like people seem to think one of two things. 20 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.359 If they don't know me and are particularly sophisticated on 21 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:27.159 you know, political sociology and things like that they have 22 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:29.959 this idea that I'm forwarding some some you know, some 23 00:01:30.079 --> 00:01:32.359 miner gift argument like I want the police to go 24 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:35.280 away and they don't have a mandate. I'm not saying that. 25 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:38.079 I mean that that whether they're true or not doesn't matter, 26 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:42.159 or they think of suggesting that this kind of lump 27 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:50.000 and revolt, however contrived and you know, cultivated by but 28 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:55.519 by organized political interests, it's just going to be like, 29 00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:57.799 you know, like public frusture is going to be such 30 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.920 that you know, police departments becomes so kind of gilded 31 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.959 and defang verbially speaking, that they can no longer implement 32 00:02:05.959 --> 00:02:08.280 the mandate, that mandate that they've been granted. I'm not 33 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:11.680 I'm not saying that either, Okay, Like what I'm saying 34 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:16.240 is that in structural terms, this is something that's run 35 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:24.319 its course, okay, And increasingly, police functions are going to 36 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:30.000 continue to collapse and do what in the Postcold War 37 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:32.840 era has been viewed as kind of military and general 38 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:40.120 security functions. Police services are going to be increasingly privatized. 39 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.560 You know, there's gonna be less and less of a 40 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:55.360 distinction between the domains wherein armed force enjoys legitimacy, either 41 00:02:55.400 --> 00:03:02.400 conditional legitimacy or an absolute sovereign capacity. Okay, and this 42 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:06.199 is inextricably bound up with the modern state as it 43 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:13.560 exists today being really rather obsolete. Okay, But to understand too, 44 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.360 like kind of what these exigencies are that are are 45 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:21.120 presenting these kinds of challenges to police departments, particularly big 46 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:27.159 city police forces. Not exclusively, it's not just a matter 47 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:34.520 of like you know, post George Floyd sentiment and kind 48 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.439 of political narratives like those narratives were able to take 49 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:43.199 a rude on grounds the phenomenon I'm talking about. Okay, 50 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:48.479 you know, and I think this is all very ill understood, 51 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:55.919 but you think the point a lot that the American 52 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:59.639 system like really mirrors the UK system, you know, politically, 53 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:09.319 and was the father quite literally of a of modern 54 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:14.960 policing was Robert Peel. He was also kind of the 55 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.959 founder of the modern Conservative Party in Britain, Like the 56 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:26.160 Tories existed before Peel's tenure as Prime minister, and he 57 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:33.120 was he was Prime Minister twice, but he he kind 58 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.560 of brought the party into the you know, into the 59 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:40.240 end of the modern age in a lot of ways. Okay, 60 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:49.680 And controlling populations at scale, particularly in a divided society. 61 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:57.800 That's really kind of the conditions president for a modern 62 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:02.759 police department. Okay, and make a mistake, the UK is 63 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:06.360 a uniquely divided society and it always has been. Okay. 64 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:11.600 That's one of many parallels between America and the UK. 65 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:17.040 It's it's not just anglical and cultural foundations. You know, 66 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:20.360 there's divisions in the UK that there's not in there 67 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.439 weren't in in Germany when Germany was uh, you know, 68 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:25.600 in that brief period it was, it was unified. But 69 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:30.360 also with sovereign republic, there's there's there's institutionalized divisions there 70 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:36.399 that that don't exist in France. Okay, And this this 71 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:41.480 bears directly on on Peel's mandate and and why he 72 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.800 proceeded the way he did and devising the first real 73 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:52.879 urban police department. Peel was born into money. His father, 74 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.360 uh was a career politician, but he'd made a fortune 75 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:01.959 and textile manufacturing. So Peele and his whole family they 76 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.800 were kind of insinuated into the They both had like 77 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:07.079 one foot kind of in the old nobility. And I 78 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:10.759 think I think Peele was a there was a there 79 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.680 was a baronet or a barony in his name. But 80 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:16.040 he also very much was part of the kind of 81 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:22.399 nascent you know, industrial producer class, you know. And it's 82 00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:24.439 education from flipid that too, you know. He took a 83 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:30.680 degree both in classics and in mathematics. He first entered 84 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.439 the House of Commons as a very young guy, I 85 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:37.360 think around twenty two years old, eighteen oh nine. But 86 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:40.120 where he really kind of made his bones, as it were, 87 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:44.439 as kind of a it's kind of a political manager 88 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:48.680 and fixer. It was his home secretary, you know, in 89 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.560 home secretary, especially in those days kind of at the 90 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:54.199 zenith of the empire. It was a very important role, 91 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:59.399 you know, and the mandate was very broad and it 92 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:03.759 attracts not just ambitious men, but also a lot of 93 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.519 a lot of men who had ideas about you know, 94 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:14.240 the sociological nature and the mandate that the office carried 95 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:22.439 with it, you know. And he started out as kind 96 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:31.279 of a conventional old school Tory. Initially. He very much 97 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:38.600 was behind the institutionalized discrimination against Catholics. He did a 98 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:42.759 one eighty on that. And this wasn't just for cynical reasons, 99 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.160 because otherwise he wouldn't have stuck to his guns and 100 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:48.920 the way he did on these kinds of matters of 101 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:58.759 equity and so and social matters. He sponsored the Catholic 102 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:03.079 Relief Act of eighteen twenty eight, which for all practical 103 00:08:03.079 --> 00:08:08.199 purposes repealed was glocally known as the Test Act, which 104 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:15.360 had banned Catholics from basically all manner of government service, 105 00:08:15.399 --> 00:08:19.000 as well as making sure they didn't get officers commissions 106 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.519 in the British Army that would have put them in 107 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:30.040 instead influence, you know, policy in the in the outer Empire. 108 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:37.120 This is very institutionalized. Okay, that's not just something that 109 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:41.919 Fanians say or that you know, kind of like old 110 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:44.679 school like you know what remains like you know, the 111 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:50.000 kind of vestigial cadre of old school labor party types 112 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:55.679 who you know who who emphasized that is, you know, 113 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:57.879 being like a key tenant of the Tories as being 114 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:02.519 this this party sectarian bigotry. You know, it actually was. 115 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:07.360 The UK was Rabbi Yani Catholic until the twentieth century. 116 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:10.279 In a lot of ways they still are. Obviously, the 117 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:14.559 situation has come amplex in ways it wasn't because you know, 118 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.440 it's it's no longer a sovereign country and there's this 119 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:21.759 kind of constellation of ethnicities that that don't have any 120 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:33.600 meaningful you know, historical experience in the UK. But you know, incidentally, 121 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:38.600 the reason why like in the UK, you know, cops 122 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.320 are called Bobby's because you know of Robert Peel and 123 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:45.279 also they're called Peelers, which is interesting. I think there's 124 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:49.519 you know, uh, the former kind of trees like like 125 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:53.159 almost it just like a mascot role of the ladder, 126 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.559 you know, kind of kind of suggests that they're ops, 127 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:58.039 like you know, it's I think it's kind of telling 128 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:06.000 it's doing us as in the English language that I 129 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:10.559 think I'm a subtle and some people will allow. But 130 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:12.879 you know, at the end of the day, what I'm 131 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:17.120 getting is what is what what is peeals? What appeals 132 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:20.440 kind of progressive ideas about you know, the treatment of Catholics. 133 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:30.080 And to be clear too, nonconformist Protestants were included in 134 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:38.399 in these in these test acts, and we're technically precluded 135 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.320 from like many of the same roles and being available 136 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:46.039 to a lot of the same benefits and institutions as 137 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:49.960 catalyps were. But slowly but surely there were de fact 138 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.080 when the the jury exceptions carved out, particularly as a 139 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:59.960 situation in Ireland deteriorated. But you know, there was a 140 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:06.440 the law really from from the time of of like 141 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:11.039 the English Reformation, you know, until kind of the end 142 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:13.799 of the nineteenth century, like in every way it was 143 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:18.000 tailored to kind of guarantee that this like Anglican hegemony, 144 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.000 you know, like culturally, economically, like in every conceivable way. 145 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:27.200 Okay, can I let me interrupt. Yes, were the Jews 146 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:28.559 included in US? 147 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:34.360 Yes, But it was complicated because like it wasn't like 148 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:37.000 a lot of it was unsaid and in the case 149 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:39.360 of the Jews, and it's not like there was some party. 150 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:46.519 It's not like there was some like formal revolutionary cadre 151 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:51.279 that was like a Jewish fraternal organization that that also 152 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:55.360 you know, had the power to kind of like impact 153 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.960 like legislation in the commons. Like there was defect though, 154 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.039 but this also that even that wasn't as deep as 155 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:05.200 people think. Before the white thing, before the twentieth century, 156 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:07.679 it was just kind of like a non factor. That's 157 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.080 not like this Israeli became the Prime Minister like Grayat did. 158 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:15.960 Disraeli was he wasn't like Kissinger in terms of his 159 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.120 personality or in terms of his values, but uh, he 160 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:23.720 was kind of the Jewish Londoner who it sort of 161 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:29.279 shed his ethnosectarian skin in real ways, he wasn't just 162 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.919 some morno, you know. But that's a whole different issue, 163 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:39.559 and the way that was dealt with was a whole 164 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:44.120 different body of like custom and things that that didn't 165 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:49.320 have to do with you know, Christian sectarianism. It's it's 166 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:52.360 a totally iron thing, and we get into that, but 167 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:54.600 it's if we should do it in another series because 168 00:12:54.600 --> 00:13:01.919 it doesn't really bear on this. But the uh, the 169 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.240 writing on the Wall and ultimately happened of course on 170 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:10.120 the heels of World War One in Ireland, like Peel 171 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:12.840 realized like there was gonna be a real problem here. 172 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:20.000 It's kind of like perfect storm of an increasingly radical 173 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:25.080 labor movement that was also increasingly mobilized, the threat of 174 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:29.240 general strike at the core of the Empire, which in 175 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:35.600 turn could touch off a sort of wildfire effect that 176 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:40.480 would spread you know, the colored dominions, and on top 177 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:46.639 of that, you know, an open cientarian revolt in Ireland 178 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:52.320 and in London and in Liverpool and in these major 179 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:56.320 urban centers in the UK. Proper like the British from islands, 180 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:58.399 I mean Ireland, obvis was part of the UK then too, 181 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:03.120 wherein there were you know, there were ghetto wise Catholics 182 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:11.480 who you know, appreciably appreciable numbers of them. This this 183 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:16.440 could have been a real bloodbath, figurative and literal. And 184 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.279 it uh was a frailty that people were aware of, 185 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:26.600 like men in government and you know, men insinuated not 186 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:31.080 just into titled society type roles, but who actually had 187 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:34.120 clout and power. You know, they realized that there was 188 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:37.399 a real danger here and these people had to be 189 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:46.600 brought into the fold and made, if not patriotic, made 190 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:49.919 to believe in good faith terms, that they had enough 191 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:52.120 of a stake in the enterprise that they wouldn't try 192 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:58.720 to burn it down. And a modern police force is 193 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:07.399 devised by Peel and as well as you know in America, 194 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:13.879 like you know Peel's counterparts in the post reconstruction era. 195 00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:17.840 You know, they they had the same thing on their mind, 196 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:24.559 you know, modern policing. It's it's not just it doesn't 197 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:29.480 just owe to the peculiar exigencies of having to manage 198 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:40.639 theretofore you know, on uh, unthinkably highly scaled and complex 199 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:45.279 urban environments, which you know, basically how is you know, 200 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:49.159 one hundreds of thousands or millions of workers that staff 201 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:52.759 the national economy. Like the way to manage that sociologically 202 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:59.919 and politically, and the way to suppress the instincts to 203 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:05.480 revolutionary violence. They're you know, intrinsic to these populations and 204 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:09.320 the conditions they find themselves. They were pried very delicate balancing, 205 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:14.000 and you couldn't just treat these people, you know, like 206 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:17.039 uh like one might you know, Cooley's revolting in in 207 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.600 in India or something like politically aside of the fact 208 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.159 you don't do that anyway, you know, if if you 209 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.799 live in you know, if you live in like a 210 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:32.240 Western society of the era, but it's also politically it 211 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:38.240 would not have been tenable, you know. You know, for 212 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:43.879 contexts prior to that, in lieu of a police department, 213 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:48.320 you know, there were night watchmen going back to the 214 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:52.320 medieval period who quite literally post up you know, when 215 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.559 the when the town gates were closed, to keep watch 216 00:16:55.639 --> 00:17:00.960 out for marauders or for military enemies, or or for fires, 217 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:07.079 you know, literally firewatch. And that was you know, essentially 218 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:12.599 a communitarian volunteer role for a younger men. I mean, 219 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:16.079 there was some kind of stipend and compensation of a 220 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:19.920 nominal sort, but you know, it was basically derivative of 221 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:26.400 a communitarian impulse. And in the case of of the court, 222 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:28.839 if there was a wanted man, you know, before the 223 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:34.680 King's bench or in America, you know, before the you know, 224 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:37.720 who was being hailed in the criminal court by the municipality. 225 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:42.640 There were constables in bailiffs who were on duty full time, 226 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:45.839 or you know, you deputize, you deputize a man of 227 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.480 good standing, sometimes even a man who was a lawyer. 228 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:53.440 You know, okay, you know, get a posse together and 229 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:57.039 go fetch this bastard, you know, bring him here, like 230 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:02.640 literally bring him into court. You know, there was so 231 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:04.839 I mean that that that essentially took care of it. 232 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:08.400 And you know, this idea that there's this kind of 233 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:14.079 permanently mobilized armed force that u is insinuated into the 234 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:18.559 community but also outside of it that literally patrols and 235 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:20.880 in this kind of permanent you know and creates like 236 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:28.480 a permanent visible presence like that didn't exist before. And 237 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:30.680 one of the things that caused so many problems for 238 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:34.839 the police is that a little over a century on 239 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:42.839 into this like urban policing model, which not coincidentally was 240 00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:49.240 concominant with, you know, the War on drugs, the police 241 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:53.599 became this They ceased to be this communitarian element, and 242 00:18:53.640 --> 00:19:01.680 they ceased to be this kind of symbolic sociological governm mechanism. 243 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:08.519 Like they became this kind of secretive, hostile element that 244 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.400 cultivated its own alienage visa via the community that it 245 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:17.440 was responsible for regulating, you know, and this wasn't some 246 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:22.640 conspiracy we're getting all out of ourselves. It owed the 247 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:28.880 realities of the Cold War. It owed you, you know, 248 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:34.000 the nature of criminality at scale in the late twentieth century. 249 00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:39.680 It owed the inability of social problems to be resolved 250 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:50.599 by truly communitarian structures and as as authority, as official authority, 251 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:57.400 both localized as well as you know, in absolutely sovereign terms. 252 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.039 You know, that would hand like a dominion over the 253 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:08.799 entire entirety and territorial territorial space of the country. You know, 254 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:11.599 they they didn't know what to do about these things, 255 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:18.640 so their fallback was on this enforcement mechanism that had 256 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.839 the widest and the deepest mandate. Proverbially speaking, you know, 257 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.720 to regulate human behavior and conduct at scale, and to 258 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:32.599 bring to bear punitive sanctions on people who were unwilling 259 00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:40.039 to comply with these edicts, be them like moral or 260 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:45.119 pragmatic or both. And that creates kind of a perfect 261 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:49.559 store of hostilities, you know. But we're not quite there yet, 262 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:56.519 but we'll get there as this goes on. To take 263 00:20:56.559 --> 00:21:00.079 it back from that, to be clear too about the 264 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:07.440 test Acts and these laws governing the rights of peoples 265 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:12.519 owing to their sectarian confession. This wasn't just superficial, and 266 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.920 it wasn't just something that wasn't really enforced except in 267 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:21.279 a capricious manner when the authorities saw fit to, you know, 268 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:34.519 deprive somebody of of upward mobility for some discreete political reason, 269 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:37.440 going to emergent crisis or something. I mean, this was 270 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:44.920 very much a staple of the sociological structure, you know, 271 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:53.640 and it basically people supported it. You know. If you 272 00:21:53.680 --> 00:22:02.039 weren't taking communion in the Anglican Church, you basically were 273 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:06.640 excluded from public life, you know. And even if you 274 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:11.319 claimed uh to not be a practicing kid like, even 275 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:14.759 if you weren't if you were not actively engaged with 276 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:16.519 the Anglican church, and if you did not have a 277 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:19.559 family pedigree, whether you were rich or poor or neither, 278 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:28.960 that demonstrably was was Anglican. You. You were reviewed as 279 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:34.839 a as an accusant, okay, and you were viewed as 280 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:42.359 somebody who is not to be trusted, and your neighbors 281 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:44.960 would probably whisper that you were some kind of secret Fenian, 282 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:49.640 even even if even if you were ethnically Irish, you know. 283 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:57.480 And again, like I said, nonconformists were included in these 284 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:06.200 measures too, But the Indemnity Act of seventeen twenty seven 285 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:12.880 alleviate some of these formal sanctions. But there's a there's 286 00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:16.519 a complex history and kind of and like rather perverse 287 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:23.119 history between Nonconformists and Anglicans that endoors really until recent 288 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:26.839 memory with the troubles. But that's I raised this because 289 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.640 that's my own heritage, and like I don't mostly like 290 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:33.559 Michael Jones. He's got to have it when he says Protestants, 291 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:38.319 he's talking about Anglicans, and I don't appreciate that, and 292 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.000 not sex not because that what something against Anglicans, but 293 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:49.759 because it's he's making a caricature of the issue, and 294 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.559 you know, kind of employing an opportunity target and trying 295 00:23:53.559 --> 00:24:01.759 to cast us, you know, like like reformed people as 296 00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:06.079 a like with his like broad stroke, as if we're 297 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:12.319 some kind of a junior version of the the traditional 298 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:17.519 Norman aristocracy or something and that, and that's not remotely accurate. 299 00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:26.720 That's why I emphasize that there's a guy, he's a 300 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:33.920 really good story and his name is Jonathan Jonathan Jonathan 301 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:39.480 Charles Douglas Clark, and he wrote a lot about I 302 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.759 think he's still alive. He's not. He's not. I mean, 303 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:44.960 he's getting pretty old. I think he's in his seventies now. 304 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.160 But he was neither like a Whig historian nor like 305 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:50.720 one of these Marxists. So he rejected both the kind 306 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:54.319 of the kind of tory what we view. It was 307 00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.920 kind of like the neo condish like progressive view of 308 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:03.400 history and institutions as being this kind of mallible institutions, 309 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:06.400 you know, in the in the Anglophone world, being the 310 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:09.680 kinds of malleable things that you know, through this kind 311 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:14.119 of process of trial and error and ongoing enlightenment quite literally, 312 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.960 you know, social conditions become more equitable in like the 313 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:24.039 open society because of reality. He rejects that nonsense outright. 314 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:28.720 But nor is he like one of these. He speaks 315 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:32.559 a lot like Hobbsbow. I mean he he. I got 316 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.799 into an argument, not not not a hostile or cumulic Blowe, 317 00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:37.119 but I got into an argument with somebody the other 318 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:43.640 day who credited Clerk with with coining the long century, 319 00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:48.279 that that terminology or that signified, and he did. He 320 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:51.799 did speak of the eighteenth century as the quote long 321 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.880 eighteenth century in similar terms that Hobsblomb described the nineteenth century. 322 00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.000 And undoubtedly they were familiar with each other's work products. 323 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:07.640 But you know, Clark wasn't really the Hegelian in the 324 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:12.720 terms that the hobbs Bomb was. But he obviously has 325 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:20.240 like some of those conceptual prejudices. I don't say prejudices 326 00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:23.440 and punitive terms. I mean, that's just very much the 327 00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:27.000 way he kind of his view of historical time is oriented, 328 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:33.119 particularly as regards you know, mind as as the kind 329 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.079 of prime move on in the historical process. But it's 330 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:43.559 o point was that Anglican aristocratic in gemony, that and 331 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:49.960 the challenge is emergent to its hegemony. That's really the 332 00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.480 way to understand everything of a power political nature. That 333 00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:58.079 happened within and without the United Kingdom, like really from 334 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:01.599 the from the time of the War three Kingdoms, you know, 335 00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:05.920 up until like World War One. Okay, and I believe 336 00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:13.119 he's correct, and an adequately deep reading of Hobbes with 337 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:19.039 somebody like Carl Schmidt was very very very adroit we 338 00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:26.279 you know, conveyed in his writings not just in the 339 00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:28.559 concept of the political but in the stuff he wrote 340 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:32.559 directly on Hobbes. He's very much making the same point, 341 00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:36.720 although obviously like his topical his topical emphasies, you know, 342 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:42.960 are are generally more focused on discrete features, you know, 343 00:27:43.039 --> 00:27:49.000 relating the kind of conceptual jurisprudness and things and and 344 00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:53.680 kind of theoretical foundations that you know are intrinsic to 345 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:57.440 the kind of British cultural mind you know, and uh 346 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.559 and such that there is a British cultural mind. It's 347 00:28:00.759 --> 00:28:05.039 it's it's it's Anglican and aristocratic and you know, so 348 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:10.519 it's a real, it's a real phenomenon. Okay, and again too, 349 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:15.200 like that's why the emergence of a modern police element 350 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.680 in the UK it was different than in in Germany, 351 00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:28.559 whereby by and large, uh, you know, the poets I 352 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:32.559 have always been sort of like, uh, an internal security 353 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:36.240 element that was very much part of the military. Okay, 354 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:39.799 that that doesn't just owe to the fact that, you know, 355 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:43.880 the modern German state is the house that Bismarck built, 356 00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:50.839 and that kind of conceptual perspective, especially visa the police 357 00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:53.039 thing is very Prussian. I mean, that's part of it. 358 00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:57.799 But I posit that that only became that that was 359 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:00.640 that only became a feature of the press and cultural 360 00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:05.119 mind on grounds the basic imaginety that was accomplished. Now granted, 361 00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:14.960 and yes, Germany's about one third Roman Catholic, but Bismarck's 362 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:24.079 culture comp was tremendously effective and basically rendering the German 363 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:32.680 state and the civil service that constituted that state at 364 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.519 level of executive enforcement, the same thing of decision making 365 00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:44.559 had become very Protestant by design. And also sectarian challenges aside, 366 00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:49.160 and I don't minimize those. I mean Germany was literally 367 00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.680 ground zero of the thirty years of war. This was 368 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.880 not like a minor thing, but there it was, despite 369 00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:02.200 the regional attachments to German and despite you know the 370 00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:11.480 kind of several populations who are possessed of discrete cultural forms, 371 00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:14.200 you know, like a Swabian is not a Prussian, is 372 00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:19.119 not a Bavarian. But there is like a German identity, 373 00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.039 like a Deutsche, like racial identity, if you will. There's 374 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:29.160 not a British race, Okay, there's constituent elements of Great Britain, 375 00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:33.039 but I nobody would argue to the contrary. I don't believe, okay. 376 00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:38.519 And that's fundamentally important. And that's one of the reasons 377 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:42.359 why again it's it's not just it's not just some 378 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:51.599 sort of like anglophone conceptual bias abstracted from historical experience 379 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:56.000 in the UK and America. One of the common strains 380 00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.920 that is facilitated this kind of enduring like a mere 381 00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:04.039 between the two political cultures, like always do both us 382 00:31:04.039 --> 00:31:10.960 and them being like intractive, we divided societies and I 383 00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:16.000 will I will die on that hill. Okay. Now bring 384 00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:20.680 it back to Clark's kind of point and how it 385 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:27.240 relates to our discussion topically after about eighteen thirty or so, 386 00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:34.200 despite the fact that yeah, the vast majority of not 387 00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:40.519 just aristocrats but like upperly mobile middle class types in 388 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:43.759 England but also in the UK and and Ulster. Oh again, 389 00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:48.839 in Ulster, it's a little more complicated. People basically believed 390 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:54.240 in like not just the divine right of the British crown, 391 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:59.359 but you know, they believe their hereditary nobility was basically 392 00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:03.480 doing its job historical terms. You know, they believe the 393 00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:08.319 kind of parameters of traditional authority from tennessa theseics on word, 394 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:11.920 with the Anglican Church being the kind of theological and 395 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:15.599 esthetical and cultural lynchpin of these things. They viewed that 396 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:23.880 is basically a good thing. Like nevertheless, there were political 397 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.440 variables that were very real that were undermining it, you know, 398 00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:30.759 and a lot of these a lot of these sociological 399 00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:35.799 and sociopolitical factors were the same things that ultimately were 400 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:42.480 you know, culminated like the eighteen forty eight revolutions, you know, 401 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:49.440 which in turn also you know, kind of kicked off 402 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:54.519 the decades on the process whereby revolutionary communism kind of 403 00:32:54.519 --> 00:33:03.440 became the default perspective of the working classes, you know, 404 00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:12.279 locally moderated as it may have been, by traditional cultural 405 00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:19.119 practices or a vestigial attachment to the national or local 406 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:22.880 culture or just out now you know, like religious belief. 407 00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:29.240 You know that the fact remains that in every punctuated 408 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:35.319 way there was cracks emerging within this structure that really 409 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:40.720 for the preceding you know, seven, eight, seven or eighth 410 00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:45.640 centuries said had been essentially insurmountable, and such as threats 411 00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:50.759 to it were emergent, they were emerging from without, and 412 00:33:51.359 --> 00:34:02.599 the standard bears of these threat were characterized first and 413 00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:09.079 foremost by their absolute alienage. Okay, so this changed everything. 414 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:18.079 But you know, and Peel the degree to which he 415 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:22.360 quite literally drafted like a manifesto and like various policy 416 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:27.519 papers on what the mandate should be of an urban 417 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:31.920 police department and what its relationships should be to the 418 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:36.960 judiciary and the executive and the Crown, but most importantly 419 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:44.199 to the community that it served. He drafted some of 420 00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:54.519 his allies in the government to produce this document known 421 00:34:54.519 --> 00:35:03.280 as the Royal Commission on Constabulary Forces. And the report 422 00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:06.800 didn't just it wasn't just emergent as some kind of 423 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:14.960 last minute policy declaration to appease you know, the official 424 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:21.880 opposition or something like. There had been a serious committee 425 00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:26.920 corral to evaluate exactly how this kind of nascent police 426 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:30.159 force I would work with the poor laws as they 427 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:34.760 were called, you know, to what degree the police were, 428 00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:41.320 you know, to kind of like enforce these superficially paternalistic 429 00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:53.440 but basically punitive, you know, legislative mandates which conferred upon 430 00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:58.159 the local executive the ability to quite literally like place 431 00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:01.079 people under arrest for fratal services and put them in 432 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:07.719 poor houses. You know. Peal was hyper aware of this potentiality, 433 00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:11.559 and he basically said, like, we can't, we can't become 434 00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:15.440 the kind of like uniformed enemy like of of the 435 00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:19.760 wretched and the poor, you know, or of the or 436 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.159 or of the work or or of the working classes. 437 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:24.840 You know. We can't just become to be viewed as 438 00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:31.159 this kind of like permanent uh cadre strike breakers or something. 439 00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:36.079 So what he did was in addition to that, in 440 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:43.719 addition to this committee that you know then, as as 441 00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:47.440 I just mentioned from them of their findings and the 442 00:36:47.480 --> 00:36:53.880 form of his broad based study to the commons, he 443 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:58.840 also drafted what came to be known as the Pelion Principles. Okay, 444 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.800 I was like the rules one might have for like 445 00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:09.760 eating an orange or something, but it's not. The nine 446 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:17.519 Plion Principles were one to prevent crime and disorder as 447 00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:20.280 and this is key as an alternative to repression by 448 00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:25.159 military force and as an alternative to recourse to increasingly 449 00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:31.519 severe punishment. So basically, you know, anything short of you know, 450 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:35.320 some kind of seventeen eighty nine situation, you don't just 451 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.840 send in the red coats, you know, to buttstroke and 452 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:42.719 bayonet people. Nor do you start you know, drawing and 453 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:47.039 quartering people in the public square like you know in 454 00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:51.000 the days of uh, you know, medieval rebellions or whatever. 455 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:57.280 You know, the people need to view the police forces 456 00:37:57.119 --> 00:38:01.280 as working you know, like with them, you know, towards 457 00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:07.239 accomplishing an equitable peace. You know. The second Peelian principle 458 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:14.199 was that the power of the police to fulfill their 459 00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:20.159 functions and duties is absolutely dependent on public approval of 460 00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:24.320 their existence, their actions and behavior in the course of 461 00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:28.039 affecting custodial arrests, but also like an approval of their mandate. 462 00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:35.159 You know, there's gotta be uh that there's got there 463 00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:38.559 there There's gotta be some sort of you know, direct 464 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:44.400 uh connection between you know, these constituencies and how they're 465 00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:48.719 represented and the commons and who represents them, you know, 466 00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:52.719 and uh an ability of those representatives like directly impact 467 00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:57.199 you know what what what you know, what what priorities 468 00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:01.239 are as well as you know as well as the 469 00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:05.639 kind of brass tacks of of how policing is conducted. 470 00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:08.960 You know, there's gotta be some kind of formal accountability, 471 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:17.039 you know, to recognize always the extent to which cooperation 472 00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:24.519 of the public must be secured, and how this diminishes 473 00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:28.199 and proportion in terms the necessity of the use of 474 00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:34.480 physical force. And this is why traditionally, like British police 475 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:38.039 don't pay heat. Okay, it's not because the British are naive. 476 00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:41.000 It's not because they got a culture that wasn't steeped 477 00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:45.719 in violence. Nor is it like in old movies where 478 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:48.880 you know there's some that the British kind of don't 479 00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:50.480 know what the hell to do if somebody shows up 480 00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:53.400 with a gun. Like look, Actually, until recently firearms are 481 00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.159 pretty ubiquitous in the UK, and until the later eighties 482 00:39:56.519 --> 00:39:58.840 you could procure a weapon as a private person without 483 00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:03.960 a whole lot of hassle. The British sending the army 484 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.719 if they need to kill somebody, okay, or if they 485 00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:10.719 need to like raid the hood and do like a 486 00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:14.320 bulls on parade thing and like break heads. The whole 487 00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:18.800 point of like the Pelion and the police is that 488 00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:24.559 they don't do that you know, you don't you know, 489 00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:31.199 you don't send you don't send a diplomatic element and 490 00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:35.280 to negotiate with a gun on his hip. Okay, that 491 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:38.519 that's the ethos and this is key and that's kind 492 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:43.679 of like where America parted ways with the Pelion concept 493 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:46.159 and what we'll get into like why that is probably 494 00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:52.679 not till part two though, but number five of the 495 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:58.119 pillion principles to seek and preserve public favor and partial 496 00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:03.039 service to law, independence of policy, and without regard to 497 00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:06.719 the justice or injustice of the substance of those laws, 498 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:13.719 but without pandering the public opinion. And uh, you know 499 00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:21.239 in in the UK and historically you know how like 500 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:24.480 in Robinhood, like the big villain is the Sheriff of Nottingham. 501 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:28.920 Like a sheriff didn't used to be like a local policeman, 502 00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:33.159 but he did basically have like the executive power of 503 00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:38.480 the county with you know that that like concentrated in 504 00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:43.159 his office. And there's a big concern that these rules 505 00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:47.039 can't become politicized that you're talking about, you know, the 506 00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:51.639 ability to affect custodial arrests and hail people into court, 507 00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:54.559 you know, by way of like a permanent constabulary, like 508 00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:56.360 there had to be some kind of accountability, but it 509 00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:02.440 couldn't become just like another political office, you know, And 510 00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:08.639 that's uh I stipilated in the early days, the UK 511 00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:12.159 did a pretty good job of this, even if it's 512 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.159 you know, something that's not that they can't really be sustained, 513 00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:18.079 you know, and in the absence as we saw with 514 00:42:18.199 --> 00:42:22.119 mister Trump, regardless of anybody feels about Trump, the man, 515 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:24.519 you know, you got You've got a perfect example in 516 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:27.239 the FBI, where it's like you have a law enforcement 517 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:31.519 agency with tremendous power whose mandate disappeared decades ago. It's like, 518 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:34.280 what what do they become? Like they basically become this 519 00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:39.719 They become this kind of like hatchet for hire for 520 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:44.800 entrench political interests, and that's that's highly corrupting, you know, 521 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:50.719 aside from the fact that it's it's uncomstable that you know, 522 00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:55.360 the taxpayer is expected to you know, continue to fund 523 00:42:55.400 --> 00:43:00.199 this apparatus, it's that you know that they're really is 524 00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:07.440 like a there really is a deleterious influence of a 525 00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:12.000 police organization that has become like especially owing to you know, 526 00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:14.679 the the evaporation of its mandate has become really nothing 527 00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:22.280 more than a a a cipher for you know, for 528 00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:30.159 political right, for political capture. The six plion principle is 529 00:43:30.159 --> 00:43:32.960 to use physical for us only when the exercise of persuasion, 530 00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:37.360 advice and warning is found to be insufficient. And again too, 531 00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:40.800 I know it's a lot of people and and like 532 00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:45.679 a fair amount of of flat foots like follow my content. 533 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:48.360 We'll just we'll just fine. I was kind of surprised, 534 00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:54.239 excuse me to discover that. But uh, I hear police 535 00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:57.320 a lot, you know, talk about how like well, you know, 536 00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:03.079 the British policing broke as fuck. They you know, they 537 00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:05.880 they're too averse to force. And maybe they are. I'm 538 00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:08.639 not I'm not like weighing in on that in absolute terms, 539 00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:13.480 but it's something that precludes the kind of current totally 540 00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:18.639 dysfunctional kind of culture of police thing like post Floyd, 541 00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:24.199 post the political theater, you know, post political theater promised 542 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:27.679 one on the Floyd incident. It it just goes back to, 543 00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:33.360 you know, literally an inception. And that's one of the 544 00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:40.760 reasons why Operation Banner played out the way that it did, 545 00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:45.559 you know, And we'll get into some of that. I 546 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:47.000 don't I don't want to turn this into the discussion 547 00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:50.480 about the troubles because it's outside the scope. But there 548 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:53.039 are aspects that are relevant to the discussion. But you know, 549 00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:59.000 my my point is people who view you know, partake, 550 00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:00.840 I mean, there's a going going on here and I 551 00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:03.760 don't want to I don't want to get into the 552 00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:06.920 topic here knose averse to the topic although it's quite unpleasant, 553 00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:11.880 but because that's how it's at the scope discussion of 554 00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:16.440 the grooming gangs and and and sexual assault of vulnerable people, 555 00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:21.239 particularly young girls and kids by by these hostile like 556 00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:25.760 alien elements. The reason why that's happening, oh, is to 557 00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:32.480 negatively political factors of you know, the post Nuremberg era. 558 00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:36.840 That that that doesn't owe to like the bridge police 559 00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:41.239 being in you know, unreasonably aversive force or something. But 560 00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:47.559 instances where there is on display of comparative reluctance, you know, 561 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:53.280 to apply deadly force or to go in heavy as 562 00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:59.360 people think of it in terms of police work, you know, 563 00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:04.280 in a ing less lethal measures. That that that's a 564 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:11.480 different thing and it precedes you know, the current era, 565 00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:21.079 and it's it's ideological shiles and things. The last uh, 566 00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:24.719 the last few are kind of brass tech stuff. The 567 00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:28.960 last few of the Peler principles of accountability, but the 568 00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:32.400 key one is to uh is quote to maintain in 569 00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:36.159 all times of relationship with the public because reality to 570 00:46:36.239 --> 00:46:38.800 the historical tradition that the police are the public and 571 00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:44.320 the public are the police. Community policing that phraseology as 572 00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:49.599 well as the ethos that underlies it as a direct 573 00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:56.159 import from the United Kingdom, and it's essential. Like regardless 574 00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:57.920 of kind of how you fall on the matter of 575 00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:02.320 what pass is good policing or like, that's not important. 576 00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:05.079 I mean it's important, but I mean for purposes of 577 00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:12.880 this particular aspect of the discussion, there does need to 578 00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:15.920 be like a communitarian aspect to the police. Otherwise it's 579 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:20.320 not workable. And honestly, that is that is the future 580 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.800 as the process that we talked about at the top 581 00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:33.000 of the hour, you know, kinda emerges in earnest and 582 00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:38.519 policing becomes truly a localized function once again. That that 583 00:47:38.679 --> 00:47:42.719 that's that's essential to local sovereignty and and essentially the 584 00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:46.079 maintenance of i've anything approaching law and order. And I 585 00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:50.519 made the point again and again you're gonna see moving forward, 586 00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:53.639 there's not gonna be I mean, I realized I'm dating 587 00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:56.320 myself with this reference. But there's I do not foresee 588 00:47:56.440 --> 00:47:59.679 like a Thomas Chitthham Civil War two scenario that people 589 00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:02.440 would be in nearly nineties. And I think him is 590 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:06.159 a great guy, and for context, he was writing about 591 00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:08.559 this stuff in the wake of things like the La riots, 592 00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:12.679 where like some kind of open ross and Kreeg was 593 00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:16.559 really like in the running, which is terrible. I do 594 00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:21.039 not see that happening at scale. What is happening, I mean, 595 00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:28.880 I mean it's already underway, is the kind of secession 596 00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:33.880 of discrete communities, some which are deliberate communities, some of 597 00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:39.320 which have just kind of ossified around common cultural imperatives 598 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:45.400 and identitarian signifiers, just like owing to accident of you know, 599 00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:54.960 historical developments and sociological realities. But as communities kind of 600 00:48:55.000 --> 00:48:57.800 become more and more self contained, you know, like we've 601 00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:02.360 talked about before, there's there's gonna be even greater and 602 00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:07.719 more layered complex interdependence of an economic and financial nature. 603 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:13.119 But politically people are seceeding. You know, You're gonna see 604 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:15.639 communities that are like nine nine point nine percent Black, 605 00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:17.880 that that are like nine nine point n a percent white. 606 00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.599 You know that that are like the same as for 607 00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.400 Raza or for like Easian people or other And similarly, 608 00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:30.599 there's gonna be communities that owing either ideological commitment or 609 00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:35.920 inability or unwillingness to establish you know, a deliberate living 610 00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:38.800 pattern a relative scale. You know, there are gonna be 611 00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:43.320 like mixed race communities that you know maybe or maybe 612 00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:46.559 even you know, community such that are situated in the 613 00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:51.559 aforementioned according to the afrementioned criteria, like going to something 614 00:49:51.679 --> 00:49:59.159 like vestigial attachment to American civic myths. But regardless, like 615 00:49:59.239 --> 00:50:01.840 any policing, it's gonna be a reflection in that community. 616 00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:05.360 You're not gonna have like white or Spanish guys going 617 00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:07.800 to police who live fifty miles away, like commuting in 618 00:50:07.880 --> 00:50:10.800 is in black code to polices and like vice versa. 619 00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:17.519 Like that's done, that's dead. You know, it's not the 620 00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:23.280 liabilities attendant to police work are just going to kind 621 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:28.679 of force those sorts of developments. But also people aren't 622 00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:32.199 gonna be willing to do the job anymore from a 623 00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:43.480 position of communitarian alienage. Okay, But also again, you know, 624 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:47.840 like what was the what was the purpose appeals model 625 00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:55.000 for police which in turn, also had strong relevance here, 626 00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:00.639 you know, again owing to the basic social visions which 627 00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:06.599 characterized both societies. What kind of derailed that really was 628 00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:11.239 uh really, it was kind of like the collapse of 629 00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:15.320 uh the cities as a low guy as like worker Barris. 630 00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:19.639 For the national economy, it was the Cold War. It 631 00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:28.239 was uh, you know, the earliest uh birthpaygs of globalism 632 00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:31.440 when they really when they literally were like two systems 633 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.880 competing for global hegemony. That's really what underlay the war 634 00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:39.079 on drugs. Like I watched the film drug Store Cowboy 635 00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:40.960 the other day, which is actually a really good film. 636 00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:44.440 I really liked that movie. It's got Kelly Lynch, it's 637 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:48.800 got James Raemar, it's got Matt Dylan, it's got Weymous 638 00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:52.320 Burrows and this weird cameo. But it's kind of a 639 00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:55.679 it's very much kind of a black comedy, but it's 640 00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:59.760 also a serious treatment of of of of like narcotic addiction. 641 00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:03.079 And it's also kind of like a you know, like 642 00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:09.559 a crime movie. But Burrows plays this heroin and morphine 643 00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:14.320 addicted priest. It's kind of like the grand old man 644 00:52:14.440 --> 00:52:20.199 of this community of addicts that's perpetually ripping and running, 645 00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.599 and he talks about the settings around nineteen seventy three, 646 00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:28.000 and he's talking about, you know, I foresee a global 647 00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:32.239 police state apparatus premised on the moral panic over use 648 00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:36.679 of narcotics. And yeah, there was an aspect to that, 649 00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:41.199 but the War on drugs is peak like Cold War, 650 00:52:42.320 --> 00:52:50.000 I think, Okay, and everything else aside. It totally and 651 00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:54.920 completely changed policing. It changed the way, it changed what's 652 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:59.719 considered evidence. It changed the way we conceptualize a criminal offense. 653 00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:06.440 It changed the way the police view the community that 654 00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:12.639 they are charged with regulating, and vice versa. It changed, uh, 655 00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:20.239 people's attitude towards violence and when the police have a 656 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:25.239 defensible mandate to apply it. I mean, it made the 657 00:53:25.400 --> 00:53:28.159 role something other than what it had been there too, 658 00:53:28.280 --> 00:53:40.559 for it was that much of a a categorical paradigm shift. Okay, 659 00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:43.599 and the War on drugs is coming to an end. Two, 660 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:48.840 which is really really interesting and very important, you know, 661 00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:59.760 especially considering that agree to which you know, many aspects 662 00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:05.679 of the health crisis are being driven by addiction. To two, 663 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:15.000 it's the obvious. But where uh, we're coming up on 664 00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:17.400 the hours we want to stop now, I'm sorry to 665 00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:20.320 be a party pooper. But if I change gears now, 666 00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:23.239 like I'll have to stop, like in the middle of 667 00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:30.119 a what I think is an important point, and I 668 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:30.840 don't want to do that. 669 00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:35.280 Then I will hold my questions until the next time 670 00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:38.760 that we prefer. 671 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:40.280 You can we can do them now if you want, 672 00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:41.039 or we can wait. 673 00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:44.679 Well, let me let me just throw one in there. Yeah, man, 674 00:54:44.719 --> 00:54:48.920 it seems it seems like in the United States policing 675 00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:52.400 was taken over by the Irish. How did that happen? 676 00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:57.800 A few different ways, at least in Chicago. Bostin's a 677 00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:03.199 bit different in Chicago, and they get into this and 678 00:55:03.280 --> 00:55:06.159 Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, which is a great book, like 679 00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:11.239 even if even if you don't accept Sinclair's you know, 680 00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:18.159 views on political economy and and and historical processes and things. 681 00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:25.199 But when the Jungle opens up, there's still like a 682 00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:31.639 vestigel like German American kind of civic elite in Chicago, 683 00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:42.039 you know, but they're slipping. Basically, the first unions were 684 00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:46.639 Irish immigrants, and the first mob here was Irish, you know, 685 00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:49.519 the Compone gang like went to war basically with like 686 00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:52.840 with with the Irish. You know that, I mean yeah, 687 00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:54.559 it was the north side of the South, So I 688 00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:59.719 truly are different. And there wasn't some like rigid homogeneity 689 00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:03.039 but between the gangs. But it was basically like you know, 690 00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:06.559 Compone's Italians like going to war with the Irish. Okay, 691 00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:12.199 So the Irish were running the street and the Irish 692 00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:15.800 and you know, the Irish were running the the the 693 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:22.880 labored unions. So by consequence, you know, you had to 694 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:24.960 give the you had to give the Irish the police 695 00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:28.320 department if you wanted to be able to regulate both 696 00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:31.679 of those things, you know. And then from there, like 697 00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:36.719 the Irish here they were able to capture they were 698 00:56:36.719 --> 00:56:43.679 able to capture the the Synegap Paratus for you know, 699 00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:49.639 like seventy years. The Irish are I'm not I'm not 700 00:56:49.679 --> 00:56:51.880 like transhing the Irish. I mean, depending on how you 701 00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:55.480 define things like I am Irish, like I don't really. 702 00:56:56.639 --> 00:56:58.199 I think if you're not running cap like you're not 703 00:56:58.239 --> 00:57:01.119 really a petty. But my point is, I mean, I 704 00:57:01.159 --> 00:57:02.440 that's one of the reason I make fun of them 705 00:57:02.440 --> 00:57:03.840 so much, just because it's kind of like an in 706 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:10.280 house rivalry. But I'm not banishing the Irish when I 707 00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:14.599 say this, but there they are conspiratorial people, very tribal, 708 00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:26.400 very uh, very in group focused, very prone to intrigues, okay, 709 00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:34.880 and the best way under the national economic schema. You 710 00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:39.559 know that existed in earnest from the eighteen seventies until 711 00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:47.639 you know, really until the Kennedy era. You know, they 712 00:57:48.920 --> 00:57:53.960 that that was how you captured cloud, you know in 713 00:57:54.000 --> 00:58:01.239 the cities. So that that's how I you the guy. 714 00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:03.440 I don't want to name drop him because I I 715 00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:05.639 think he's retired now. I mean I think about this 716 00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:08.400 the other day, like I'm getting so old. But I 717 00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:10.840 went to law school and I became buddies with them. 718 00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:14.719 Like when I went to law school, this guy named Corboy. 719 00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:17.880 He's this big shot like King of Torch type lawyer. 720 00:58:18.639 --> 00:58:22.639 He founded the scholarship at John Marshall Chicago. Or like 721 00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:26.159 any Chicago policeman or woman can like get a full 722 00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:29.719 ride if they can like get into John Marshall. So 723 00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:31.800 I got to know like some of these flat foots, 724 00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:34.480 including the guy who went on to become a honch 725 00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:36.920 with a re turnover police. And I got to know 726 00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:39.199 him pretty well because like he drive me home. I 727 00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:44.280 mean we we had class on the weekends. We were 728 00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:47.880 both going to law school at night if he was 729 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:49.519 working as he was, he was working as a cop. 730 00:58:49.559 --> 00:58:52.440 Then he worked the West Side, you know, I was, 731 00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:54.880 I was working a couple of different jobs, including this gym 732 00:58:54.920 --> 00:58:57.559 and Edgewater. But so you go to class at night 733 00:58:57.599 --> 00:59:00.599 and then on Saturday morning we had like lawyer ring skills. 734 00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:06.440 He was basically legal writing. And uh, he'd meet me 735 00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:13.000 at the Skoky Swifts l station and then we'd drive 736 00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:16.679 to the Loop and then every class he'd drive me back. 737 00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:19.559 It's the Skogy Swift and then I'd go home to Evanston. 738 00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:22.719 So like I got to know him, went pretty well. 739 00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:26.679 And he was the third generation cop. Like his brother 740 00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:30.159 was a cop, his dad was a cop, his grandfather 741 00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:34.119 been a cop, you know, and it's uh, it was interesting. 742 00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:41.079 And and he married a lady who was very nice. 743 00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:44.840 And he'd met her at is U where a lot 744 00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:46.559 of cops used to go to college. I don't know 745 00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:50.320 what today, but they're their police science program. It was 746 00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:53.159 kind of a Feaer system for Chicago bed. But he 747 00:59:53.239 --> 00:59:55.480 married a lady and like her dad was a cop, 748 00:59:56.039 --> 01:00:02.679 you know. But at that point, being like, uh, I 749 01:00:03.079 --> 01:00:08.000 got some insight, uh, because I'm like a north Shore 750 01:00:08.079 --> 01:00:10.119 guy and so there was plenty of Irish around like 751 01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:14.440 where I grew up. But you know, they were they 752 01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:18.360 weren't the kinds of guys who become policemen, you know, like, uh, 753 01:00:19.159 --> 01:00:21.440 they're the kinds of guys who were like lawyers and 754 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:24.400 stuff and like accountants like their dads. I mean, you know, 755 01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:27.880 the prosperous serious that's not some kind of like flex 756 01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:30.480 and like my family because like my dad, like my 757 01:00:30.559 --> 01:00:32.920 dad's like a fucking genius, but he's like he's like 758 01:00:32.960 --> 01:00:35.599 this academic guy and basically like a game theory guy. 759 01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:38.599 We were kind of like we were like the poor people, 760 01:00:38.840 --> 01:00:42.000 I'm sure, and like you guys you did it? Is 761 01:00:42.039 --> 01:00:44.559 this first guy I know, like helping me. You know, 762 01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:46.119 he's like, but don't do what he does. You won't 763 01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:49.440 we get any money. It's like like I want your opinion. 764 01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:52.920 But yeah, that was that was kind of a tangent man, 765 01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:55.639 Sorry with it, and I forgive my I finally were 766 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:58.639 being sick, man, but I still got some congestion. Forgive me. 767 01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:01.039 I realized I don't sound well, So forgive me for. 768 01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:05.239 It, no problem, uh, and drop some plugs and I'll 769 01:01:05.320 --> 01:01:05.480 end this. 770 01:01:08.039 --> 01:01:12.480 You'll end it. All. That's struck me as funny as sorry. 771 01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:16.320 I'm trying to be a cob. You can always find me. 772 01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:19.559 The best place to find me is on substick. I'm 773 01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:22.480 on hiatus from the pod until the first week in February, 774 01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:25.559 but there's other good stuff that's popping up there and 775 01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:27.599 I promise Season via the Pod is going to be 776 01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:33.559 lit and tremendous. It's real Thomas seven seven seven dot 777 01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:38.039 substack dot com. My website is kind of a one 778 01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:43.679 stop location for a bunch of my content. It's number 779 01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:48.800 seven h O M A S seven seven seven dot com. 780 01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:54.159 I'm on social media at Capital r E A L 781 01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:59.960 Underscore number seven h O M A S seven seven 782 01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:04.559 and seven. I'm on Instagram, on Telegram. But yeah, there's 783 01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:09.360 big things on the horizon and I think I think 784 01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:12.440 the subs will very much appreciate and approve of these things. 785 01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:16.280 And I want to give since I'm gonna thank everybody 786 01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:20.960 for supporting the brand. People have really we've gotten like 787 01:02:21.000 --> 01:02:24.159 a glut of new subscribers lately. It's it's just great, 788 01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:27.679 you know, and your support makes this possible. I cannot 789 01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:31.519 thank you enough. And in a week I'm going to 790 01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:34.360 the inauguration and a bunch of the fellas and girls 791 01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:37.000 are gonna be out there. I'm gonna I'm gonna stream 792 01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:41.159 from out there, and I'm gonna try and capture some 793 01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:44.280 worthwhile footage and b roles. So there's had to look 794 01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:47.679 forward to also. But that's that's what I got, all. 795 01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:51.920 Right, man, Till the next time, Thank you. I want 796 01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:55.480 to welcome everyone back to the Beginiana Show, Thomas Hey, 797 01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:58.960 part two of the police series. How you doing, man? 798 01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:02.280 I don't well, thank you man. Yeah, I think it 799 01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:09.840 was pretty Part one seemed to be pretty well received. People. Uh, 800 01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:12.159 I guess some of the subs were confused that the 801 01:03:12.159 --> 01:03:14.599 whole thing wasn't on YouTube. I don't know why. In 802 01:03:14.599 --> 01:03:16.639 the description it said it was just like a preview. 803 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:21.280 But let me address that real quick in the beginning 804 01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:25.960 of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the videos are not going 805 01:03:26.039 --> 01:03:29.000 to be on YouTube, rumble bit shoot anymore. You get 806 01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:32.159 a preview. If you decided something you want to watch, 807 01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:34.559 you can go over to one of the podcast apps 808 01:03:34.559 --> 01:03:37.840 and listen to it. Yeah, just not knowing that I'm 809 01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.079 not gonna put out video anymore. 810 01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:42.360 No, No, that makes perfect sense, man. And and yeah, 811 01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:46.519 like I didn't think it was confusing or anything that's 812 01:03:46.559 --> 01:03:48.519 that seems like a perfectly reasonable way to do it. 813 01:03:49.400 --> 01:03:52.280 So yeah, that's that's great. 814 01:03:52.360 --> 01:03:55.280 If it's a particularly if it's a subject that I 815 01:03:55.280 --> 01:03:59.320 think we need video for, I'll release it for subscribers. 816 01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:02.320 Yeah. Yeah, no, that that that makes perfect sense. 817 01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:02.559 Man. 818 01:04:02.679 --> 01:04:06.840 Yeah no, I I wasn't confused by the whole thing, 819 01:04:06.920 --> 01:04:10.760 but a handful of people hit me up about it, 820 01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:18.400 so yeah, thanks for thanks for shouting it out. I think, uh, 821 01:04:20.280 --> 01:04:22.800 I think we finished it off last time talking about 822 01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:27.840 Robert Peel and like the Peel Principles and they you know, 823 01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:31.719 I emphasize that not to be pedantic or because I 824 01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:37.719 get excited about trivialities and the historical record. But again 825 01:04:37.760 --> 01:04:41.639 that agree to which policing really is a political phenomenon. 826 01:04:41.719 --> 01:04:45.960 It's not. It's it's not the necessity whereby, oh, the 827 01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:48.559 police have always been here, you know, the police have 828 01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:51.760 existed for forty thousand years, like basically since man became 829 01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:55.639 like sentient, and if they go away, there's anarchy. That's 830 01:04:55.679 --> 01:05:00.079 not why you have a police department, you know. And 831 01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:04.239 the American model the reason why there's not like there's 832 01:05:04.280 --> 01:05:06.519 not like an American version of like the German order 833 01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:08.679 police that are like part of the National Guard or 834 01:05:08.679 --> 01:05:12.599 something is because there's a there's a strange situation in 835 01:05:12.599 --> 01:05:19.159 the UK and America and for clarity to like, you know, 836 01:05:19.280 --> 01:05:22.320 Peel absolutely was the thought, wasn't is the father of 837 01:05:22.400 --> 01:05:26.400 modern what's called like metropolitan policing. The first, the first 838 01:05:26.480 --> 01:05:29.360 true police department came from Scotland. That's a get another 839 01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:33.960 thing that like the Scottish came up with in uh 840 01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:38.280 in this the City of Glasgow Police like the first 841 01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:41.840 like the first professional police department. They were established my 842 01:05:41.840 --> 01:05:45.320 an Act of Parliament in eighteen hundred. I knew that, 843 01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:47.000 but some of the some of like the scot some 844 01:05:47.039 --> 01:05:49.320 of the Pikey's like shouted out and like what the 845 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:56.480 fuck the first police was quoting the quotes. So there 846 01:05:56.480 --> 01:06:05.760 you go and Peel the London the London Metropolitan Police 847 01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:08.800 were created by the Peace the Peace Preservation Act of 848 01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:13.840 eighteen fourteen and Peel essentially like drafted that in all 849 01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:16.719 but name. I don't know if he's credited as as 850 01:06:16.840 --> 01:06:23.760 as the primary author, but yeah, for context in at 851 01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:30.960 the turn of the nineteenth century, London had it had 852 01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:34.039 four hundred fifty constables and service of the Kings or 853 01:06:34.079 --> 01:06:40.960 Queen's bench and forty hundred night watchmen, you know, and 854 01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:46.920 it was, uh, it wasn't within the contemplation that there'd 855 01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:51.599 be like a permanent professional police force until Peel's reforms 856 01:06:51.639 --> 01:06:54.880 and when he became Home Secretary. That's really when it 857 01:06:54.920 --> 01:06:58.679 began in earnest. But there were significance to us in 858 01:06:58.679 --> 01:07:05.800 this country. You know, everything kind of changed with the 859 01:07:05.880 --> 01:07:09.880 New Deal regime and subsequent and you know, one of 860 01:07:09.880 --> 01:07:12.800 the reasons why is people might age and older. Remember 861 01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:14.440 one of the reasons why it was a big deal 862 01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:20.719 when the media kind of turned on LAPD and you know, 863 01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:23.199 when the Rodney King incident happened, and then like the 864 01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:26.360 subsequent you know, like race war came about. I'm not 865 01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:29.199 I'm not being shrill. I mean that there really was 866 01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:34.400 a race war. You know. I think people kind of 867 01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:38.280 confused William H. Parker with Darryl Gates. And I've noticed 868 01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:40.960 that too because a lot of these it's fading because 869 01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:46.400 like nobody takes woke shit seriously anymore. But at that 870 01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:48.840 at the peak of that garbage, like I think around 871 01:07:48.880 --> 01:07:53.039 like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, there was a lot of these. 872 01:07:53.639 --> 01:07:56.480 There was a handful like history as a Los Angeles 873 01:07:56.519 --> 01:08:00.000 that made sound of a splash, and it kind of 874 01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:03.440 me you know, a kind of mainstream academ which is 875 01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:07.280 very midwood stuff. But there was this big effort to 876 01:08:07.360 --> 01:08:11.400 kind of slander William H. Parker, and I realized because 877 01:08:11.400 --> 01:08:13.320 I'm like, why they singling out Parker? And I'll get 878 01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:15.199 to why that's weird in a minute. But then I 879 01:08:15.239 --> 01:08:17.279 realized a lot of these people, I think Parker and 880 01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:21.560 Gates are the same guy. You know, in Gates, I 881 01:08:21.560 --> 01:08:23.600 I think Gates was kind of an ugly guy, like 882 01:08:23.640 --> 01:08:25.439 not not for this, not for the reasons that a 883 01:08:25.479 --> 01:08:30.760 lot of left wingers do, but I you know, I 884 01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:33.319 I'll get into why I think that in a bit. 885 01:08:33.439 --> 01:08:38.399 But but Parker, Parker was this big progressive, you know, 886 01:08:38.560 --> 01:08:43.119 he and his He's kind of like the American Robert 887 01:08:43.239 --> 01:08:46.399 Peel in some ways, you know, because like policing before 888 01:08:47.560 --> 01:08:52.399 the nineteen fifties, really in America, it's like corruption was 889 01:08:52.439 --> 01:08:54.560 kind of taken for granted, Like I mean, like graft 890 01:08:54.840 --> 01:08:57.079 like besy was understood, like in any big city you 891 01:08:57.079 --> 01:08:58.960 can like pay off the cops and get them off 892 01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:04.720 your back. It was very ad hoc. I think that 893 01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:06.960 until I think I think in the nineteen forties, the 894 01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:10.159 city of Miami you had literally two sworn police officers, 895 01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:16.000 you know, and even in cities where you had, you know, 896 01:09:16.039 --> 01:09:19.840 a more mobilized police force, like Chicago, it didn't. It 897 01:09:19.840 --> 01:09:21.840 didn't function the way like we think of it. They 898 01:09:21.840 --> 01:09:24.159 were kind of like de facto, like you know, union 899 01:09:24.159 --> 01:09:28.520 busters and strike breakers. You know, you kind of rely 900 01:09:28.680 --> 01:09:31.560 on police services and you could like pay them to 901 01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:34.279 show up like Below Board, you know. And it was 902 01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:39.600 not in Gangs in New York, which I think is 903 01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:41.880 a really great film, although like a lot of people 904 01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:46.000 trash it for reasons I don't quite understand, but I 905 01:09:46.119 --> 01:09:48.520 like it for a lot of reasons. I mean, it's 906 01:09:48.560 --> 01:09:51.800 the only film that really deals with kind of the 907 01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:54.439 the web life was like in big northern cities during 908 01:09:54.439 --> 01:09:58.279 the War between the States. But Happy Jack, you know, 909 01:09:58.359 --> 01:10:03.079 the the thug, like the like the policeman played by 910 01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:06.159 John c Riley. He was like out there thugginghead like 911 01:10:06.359 --> 01:10:09.800 that was pretty realistic, like by all accounts, man like that. 912 01:10:09.720 --> 01:10:12.399 That's like what the police were like. You know. 913 01:10:12.560 --> 01:10:15.279 There was a show I can't remember if it was 914 01:10:15.279 --> 01:10:18.840 on AMC or History, but it was. It only did 915 01:10:18.840 --> 01:10:21.760 two seasons it was called copper uh. 916 01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:24.079 Huh, and it was I've never heard of it. 917 01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:27.319 Yeah, yeah, it was really good, and it really it 918 01:10:27.359 --> 01:10:30.760 did a good job of showing it would be late 919 01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:33.880 eighteen hundreds, eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties, and it did a 920 01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:37.319 really good job of showing just exactly that the whole 921 01:10:37.399 --> 01:10:42.159 John c Riley thing about how they were a lot 922 01:10:42.239 --> 01:10:45.119 of them were just thugs. A lot of them grew 923 01:10:45.199 --> 01:10:49.000 up thugs or they came back from the war and 924 01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:51.359 they had nothing else that they could do, and they 925 01:10:51.720 --> 01:10:54.199 they got thrown into into policing. 926 01:10:55.039 --> 01:10:57.199 Yeah, they were good at strong arming people when they 927 01:10:57.239 --> 01:10:59.680 they and they yeah, and they were good with with 928 01:10:59.720 --> 01:11:04.119 the with a hand on which at nose days. I 929 01:11:04.119 --> 01:11:06.840 mean today, I'm still a terrible pistol shot. But these 930 01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:10.039 days it's a lot easier to stay Ontario the pistol 931 01:11:10.079 --> 01:11:12.399 than if you're using some old cold forty by peacemaker, 932 01:11:12.479 --> 01:11:14.479 you know, like even I mean, you know all that 933 01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:18.880 you're a gun guy. But but yes, that's you know, 934 01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:21.680 it's basically what the police were. It's not some that's 935 01:11:21.760 --> 01:11:24.279 not some progressive myth about you know, the bad guy 936 01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:26.359 police or something. I mean, it's a fact. But it 937 01:11:27.159 --> 01:11:31.039 but Parker, you know, all kinds of in every sense 938 01:11:31.119 --> 01:11:33.880 in public policy, you know, always making the point that 939 01:11:33.960 --> 01:11:37.439 sociology was a real discipline, like because of the Cold 940 01:11:37.479 --> 01:11:41.399 War and because of the managerial state. And Parker was 941 01:11:41.399 --> 01:11:43.479 one of these guys. I'll get to do his background 942 01:11:43.479 --> 01:11:47.319 in a minute. But in the nineteen fifties and sixties, 943 01:11:47.399 --> 01:11:51.000 like big city police chiefs or in Chicago police superintendent 944 01:11:51.079 --> 01:11:54.920 says we call them, they weren't just like career cops 945 01:11:54.920 --> 01:11:57.840 who you know, had like the ear of the mirror. 946 01:11:57.920 --> 01:12:01.159 I mean, there's definitely some of that, but this idea 947 01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:03.880 of you know, a cop needs to be some like 948 01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:10.319 college educated type with with you know, preferably with the 949 01:12:10.600 --> 01:12:13.600 with a kind of prestige degree, you know, which in 950 01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:16.600 those days supposed like a degree in sociology, your economics 951 01:12:16.680 --> 01:12:20.279 or like urban planning or something. You know, Like this 952 01:12:20.479 --> 01:12:22.720 was a big thing, you know, and that's one of 953 01:12:22.720 --> 01:12:27.479 the reasons why Parker didn't like a Hollywood But the 954 01:12:27.479 --> 01:12:30.520 reason why shows like Dragnet were a big deal, Like 955 01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:34.199 they worked with La PD, and Parker cultivated that, you know, 956 01:12:34.239 --> 01:12:36.640 I get La Confidential. How that guy played like Kevin 957 01:12:36.680 --> 01:12:39.920 Space even sends he's like always wearing h he's always 958 01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:43.239 wearing Italian suits, and he's got like manicured fingernails, and 959 01:12:43.279 --> 01:12:45.880 he's he's consulting with a guy he was supposed to 960 01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:49.199 be Jack Webb. I'm dragnet. Like that was the real thing, 961 01:12:49.479 --> 01:12:51.920 Like the Hollywood LA Cop Who knows who had them? 962 01:12:52.600 --> 01:12:54.760 You know, who's interface of the media in a way 963 01:12:54.800 --> 01:13:00.319 that that is essential kind of the public image, you know, 964 01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:02.800 like they had stuff all came from Parker and uh, 965 01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:06.079 you know that this was the l E PD was 966 01:13:06.119 --> 01:13:08.920 held out as like the model police force, and if 967 01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:12.439 you read the kind of stuff Parker said, it was 968 01:13:12.479 --> 01:13:14.960 all like the Peel principles. You know, it's like we're 969 01:13:14.960 --> 01:13:18.680 a community based police department. You know, like we're not here, 970 01:13:18.880 --> 01:13:22.239 you know, just to arrest people and and smack people up. 971 01:13:22.439 --> 01:13:25.720 You know, Uh, We're not just a bunch of stripe breakers. 972 01:13:25.760 --> 01:13:28.840 Like he was like this big progressive who like was 973 01:13:28.840 --> 01:13:32.319 was a who I mean, That's why it's weird they're 974 01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:34.399 trying to present him as this kind of like clansman 975 01:13:34.560 --> 01:13:37.439 type or something like, because he wasn't at all. He 976 01:13:37.479 --> 01:13:39.680 was like this big progressive and his big thing was 977 01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:45.039 that like the the La County sheriffs. The had a 978 01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:48.199 reputation as being kind of like very redneck issh and 979 01:13:48.319 --> 01:13:50.640 very rough, and his whole thing was like, we're not 980 01:13:50.800 --> 01:13:54.199 like those guys, you know. Uh, Parker like high he 981 01:13:54.279 --> 01:13:57.920 was into hiring blacks and uh and like mestizel people, 982 01:13:58.199 --> 01:14:01.039 you know, the police their own hoods and stuff like this. 983 01:14:01.279 --> 01:14:04.119 That was like this whole thing, you know, and like that. 984 01:14:04.359 --> 01:14:06.800 People might be like, well, that's just like police work, 985 01:14:07.039 --> 01:14:09.920 but yeah, that's why it's police work because of Parker. 986 01:14:10.239 --> 01:14:14.760 And Parker was falling back on this stuff from the 987 01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:19.000 UK because he was an educated guy and like most 988 01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:20.600 of these guys, you know, he came up through the 989 01:14:20.680 --> 01:14:23.680 service during the War two, like he'd been born in 990 01:14:23.840 --> 01:14:28.840 uh in the Dakotas and found his way to give 991 01:14:28.840 --> 01:14:32.840 me one second, my machine's freaking out there, we go. Yeah, 992 01:14:32.840 --> 01:14:35.239 he was born he was born in South Dakota and 993 01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:40.439 made his way uh in Deadwood, you know, which has 994 01:14:40.479 --> 01:14:45.960 like an auspicious heritage as regards law enforcement and stuff. 995 01:14:47.039 --> 01:14:50.560 And then he, uh, he made his way to southern 996 01:14:50.640 --> 01:14:54.119 California like a lot of like a lot of people 997 01:14:54.159 --> 01:14:57.640 did from that part of the country, including my paternal grandfather. 998 01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:06.640 His uh, his grandfather, William H. Parker, was a war hero. 999 01:15:06.760 --> 01:15:08.920 He fought up to the Union Army and in the 1000 01:15:08.920 --> 01:15:12.199 War between the States and later served in Congress. And 1001 01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:17.960 Parker was, uh, he was very Catholic, which obviously was unusual. 1002 01:15:18.039 --> 01:15:22.039 And in uh in like Los Angeles at the time, 1003 01:15:22.079 --> 01:15:25.000 which was which is kind of like a wasp it was. 1004 01:15:25.039 --> 01:15:26.119 It was a really it was kind of like a 1005 01:15:26.279 --> 01:15:29.000 wasp bread out like literally like rich waspy people. He 1006 01:15:29.159 --> 01:15:31.840 kind of settled it and those people like their their 1007 01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:34.520 descendants like still have a lot of cloud there, you know. 1008 01:15:35.720 --> 01:15:37.039 And and then and there was a lot of like 1009 01:15:37.079 --> 01:15:40.279 okies too, you know who like working in poor like 1010 01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:42.960 white folks. But you know, Parker was kind of outside 1011 01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:53.680 of that culture. But he uh he joined l A. 1012 01:15:53.800 --> 01:16:00.000 P d. And know, it was the eighteenth nine twenty, 1013 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:04.000 he said, when he was going to law school, and 1014 01:16:04.039 --> 01:16:05.479 it's the idea was that it was just going to 1015 01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:07.239 like put him through school and it was like something 1016 01:16:07.239 --> 01:16:09.720 to do and like, you know, well during the course 1017 01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:12.079 of his studies and he said he could learn like, 1018 01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:14.319 you know, stuff about public policy or whatever. I'm at 1019 01:16:14.359 --> 01:16:20.159 the road in terms of functional application of the law, 1020 01:16:20.199 --> 01:16:23.840 you know, like in an executive role at street level. 1021 01:16:24.239 --> 01:16:28.760 But he decided every patch, the bar exam. He just 1022 01:16:28.840 --> 01:16:32.760 he decided to He decided to stay on is early 1023 01:16:33.439 --> 01:16:35.640 he early on, like he was a big advocate of 1024 01:16:35.720 --> 01:16:38.279 like a police the police union, which at that time, 1025 01:16:39.760 --> 01:16:41.840 I think the the New York and Chicago or paternal 1026 01:16:42.000 --> 01:16:45.760 or a police were already a thing. But like the 1027 01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:49.840 idea of public sector unions, I wouldn't gonna be wrong. 1028 01:16:49.920 --> 01:16:51.960 Like police work in them days was a lot different 1029 01:16:51.960 --> 01:16:54.119 than today, and like those guys actually did need some 1030 01:16:54.199 --> 01:16:58.560 kind of formal representation visa via the city council and stuff. 1031 01:16:58.560 --> 01:17:01.239 It's not it's not like ridiculous bullshit like I make 1032 01:17:01.279 --> 01:17:04.920 a teacher's union. But you know, public sector unions weren't 1033 01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:10.119 a thing, and uh back in those days in California, 1034 01:17:11.319 --> 01:17:13.920 I think throughout the state, so that there was any 1035 01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:18.840 kind of like cop representation, and in terms of organized labor, 1036 01:17:19.119 --> 01:17:22.600 it was generally like a police and firefighters union, and 1037 01:17:24.359 --> 01:17:27.760 that was that was his primary role. You know, he 1038 01:17:27.880 --> 01:17:31.359 wasn't mostly a beat cop, but he did. He took 1039 01:17:31.520 --> 01:17:36.119 leave to go fight in uh World War Two, and 1040 01:17:36.199 --> 01:17:40.399 he was in, UH he was in during combat. He 1041 01:17:40.520 --> 01:17:44.920 got a purple Heart for wounds that he received in Normandy, 1042 01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:50.359 and he'd been in uh, he'd been at the assault 1043 01:17:50.399 --> 01:17:54.960 in Sardinia, and because his background as a cop, they 1044 01:17:55.000 --> 01:17:58.520 put him. He was both in the role. It's kind 1045 01:17:58.520 --> 01:18:02.000 of like a counterinsurgency enter like in theater. He was 1046 01:18:02.079 --> 01:18:05.720 responsible for POWs and stuff and detention, as well as 1047 01:18:06.479 --> 01:18:11.399 you know, kind of policing, uh the ranks post occupation 1048 01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:17.840 in Munich and stuff. That's a uh, that's a resume. 1049 01:18:18.560 --> 01:18:22.960 I'm not trying to cast an ominous light on Parker, 1050 01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:27.079 but that's a resume. Not unlike John Burge, although Burge 1051 01:18:27.079 --> 01:18:30.640 I believe was engaged in Phoenix for raumsy stuff and 1052 01:18:30.720 --> 01:18:33.000 not for those that don't know, Burge was he was 1053 01:18:33.000 --> 01:18:36.880 a homicide police here in Chicago, very feared guy. His 1054 01:18:37.000 --> 01:18:42.439 name rang out and he he got indicted like years 1055 01:18:42.479 --> 01:18:47.119 after he retired from torturing suspects, procuring all these dubious 1056 01:18:47.159 --> 01:18:52.520 confessions that were procured under duress. But that agree to 1057 01:18:52.520 --> 01:18:55.479 what the military during like the draft era, you know, 1058 01:18:55.560 --> 01:19:01.920 and basically you know, World War One through and and 1059 01:19:02.119 --> 01:19:05.079 the relationship of LAPD to the Vietnam War particularly is 1060 01:19:05.159 --> 01:19:07.840 very interesting. Joseph Wamba gets into that. We'll talk a 1061 01:19:07.880 --> 01:19:12.039 little bit about Wamba. But during during the World War 1062 01:19:12.079 --> 01:19:14.680 two era, you know, like there was a glott of 1063 01:19:14.720 --> 01:19:19.680 guys who who'd uh, who'd been in in heavy action, 1064 01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:23.479 who became cops or guys like Parker who'd you know, 1065 01:19:23.880 --> 01:19:27.359 already been for an officers and then left, you know, 1066 01:19:27.399 --> 01:19:30.680 to leave, like you know, to join the service or 1067 01:19:30.720 --> 01:19:34.319 to be you know, satisfied their draft allegation or whatever. 1068 01:19:34.439 --> 01:19:41.479 But he got he got the war Cross. I'm not 1069 01:19:41.520 --> 01:19:43.680 even gonna try and pronounce it de croix, the GI 1070 01:19:44.079 --> 01:19:50.239 I think is what it's called. It's basically, uh, basically 1071 01:19:50.279 --> 01:19:55.439 the French equivalent of the war merit cross maintaining ordered 1072 01:19:55.439 --> 01:19:58.560 in the liberation of Paris. But out of the war, 1073 01:19:58.640 --> 01:20:01.399 he shot through the ranks, became one of the one 1074 01:20:01.399 --> 01:20:04.840 of the deputy chiefs, and by nineteen fifty he was 1075 01:20:05.960 --> 01:20:07.760 by the year nineteen fifty, like he was a big 1076 01:20:07.800 --> 01:20:13.119 shot and he he he's responsible for not just cleaning 1077 01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:16.520 up graft at street level, but you know, kind of 1078 01:20:16.560 --> 01:20:21.279 a insinuating la insulating lapd from like war to politics. 1079 01:20:21.640 --> 01:20:24.199 There's one of the reasons too. I like mafia guys 1080 01:20:24.279 --> 01:20:26.640 in the traditional sense, like couldn't really get a toe 1081 01:20:26.680 --> 01:20:29.880 hold in California, you know, like I I'm sorry to 1082 01:20:29.960 --> 01:20:34.399 keep citing a Hollywood movie as authoritative, but it draws 1083 01:20:34.479 --> 01:20:37.239 upon real stuff and some people are familiar with, you know, 1084 01:20:37.279 --> 01:20:40.079 like an LA Confidential, there's a scene where like Dudley 1085 01:20:40.399 --> 01:20:42.960 like Budd White, who's like isn'tforced her, you know, he's 1086 01:20:43.000 --> 01:20:47.680 like a goon police like they het word that he's 1087 01:20:47.680 --> 01:20:51.319 like East Coast mob guys are in Los Angeles for 1088 01:20:51.359 --> 01:20:54.680 some reason. So like Dudley has White in the goon 1089 01:20:54.760 --> 01:20:57.560 squad like Shanghai these dudes and like take them to 1090 01:20:58.399 --> 01:21:02.079 you know, take take them to some interrogation location and 1091 01:21:02.119 --> 01:21:04.359 like beat the fuck out of them. And then they 1092 01:21:04.359 --> 01:21:06.640 literally like put these guys like back on a train 1093 01:21:07.119 --> 01:21:11.960 going back east, like all like broken up and bang 1094 01:21:12.079 --> 01:21:15.560 up and battered. Like LAPD did stuff like that. And 1095 01:21:15.560 --> 01:21:18.039 that's one of the reasons Lava was always an open territory. 1096 01:21:18.520 --> 01:21:21.000 Like it's not just because the LAPD would literally fuck 1097 01:21:21.079 --> 01:21:23.880 your world up, you know if you were an outsider 1098 01:21:24.039 --> 01:21:28.600 trying to set up rackets there, but there really wasn't. 1099 01:21:29.319 --> 01:21:31.439 There wasn't like any ward boss you could go visit 1100 01:21:31.479 --> 01:21:34.319 in LA you know who if it didn't you know 1101 01:21:34.319 --> 01:21:36.560 who peeps be like, hey, I'm so and so, you know, 1102 01:21:37.560 --> 01:21:40.319 and my guy vouched for me, like let's do business. 1103 01:21:41.119 --> 01:21:43.000 And I mean you have like and you don't have 1104 01:21:43.039 --> 01:21:44.199 to you don't have just like you don't have the 1105 01:21:44.199 --> 01:21:46.439 same hood structure in La Man. I mean, yeah, it's 1106 01:21:46.479 --> 01:21:50.800 like like East La span is traditionally south central as black, 1107 01:21:51.439 --> 01:21:53.520 you know, and then you got like oki and white hoods. 1108 01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:56.760 But it's not like Chicago and New York. It's not 1109 01:21:56.800 --> 01:21:59.960 like there's like this like word system where you know, 1110 01:22:00.159 --> 01:22:04.840 you were were like bosses on from the ground up. 1111 01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:09.600 Is like how you got stuff done. So you know, 1112 01:22:09.720 --> 01:22:13.199 Parker kind of yeah, it's like okay, any man in 1113 01:22:13.239 --> 01:22:15.760 the airheads work cut out for him. But you know, 1114 01:22:15.840 --> 01:22:20.800 it's it's important to distinguish that Los Angeles was kind 1115 01:22:20.800 --> 01:22:23.159 of fertile grounds for a lot of this stuff and 1116 01:22:23.359 --> 01:22:28.560 a lot of this kind of social policy experimentation. That's 1117 01:22:28.600 --> 01:22:31.079 not to say it's a tabula rasa, but it's not 1118 01:22:31.119 --> 01:22:34.800 only that's one of reason too, Like, I mean, because 1119 01:22:34.800 --> 01:22:38.199 we just did a California series, this is one of 1120 01:22:38.239 --> 01:22:40.119 the reasons why people are kind of able to project 1121 01:22:40.199 --> 01:22:45.479 on to California, specifically Los Angeles. This kind of confabulated 1122 01:22:45.800 --> 01:22:49.159 narrative of its political heritage, you know, like one one 1123 01:22:49.199 --> 01:22:52.840 way or the other to try and shore up a 1124 01:22:52.880 --> 01:23:02.359 mandate of an ideological nature. But you know, the uh, 1125 01:23:02.640 --> 01:23:05.880 one of Parker's big things and gags later ran with 1126 01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:14.399 this will be a pretty very different reasons. But Parker, Uh, 1127 01:23:14.479 --> 01:23:22.680 Parker drammatically reduced the size of LAPD and he actually 1128 01:23:22.720 --> 01:23:26.960 militarized it in key ways, not in terms of its ethos, 1129 01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:30.319 but his whole thing was mobility. And you know, again 1130 01:23:30.359 --> 01:23:35.319 like his formad of experience at command level, and I 1131 01:23:35.359 --> 01:23:39.319 believe the rank of commander as a police rank came 1132 01:23:39.359 --> 01:23:43.760 about under Parker's tenure. But you know, his his experience, 1133 01:23:43.920 --> 01:23:46.279 his form of experience had been in the service, like 1134 01:23:46.359 --> 01:23:51.479 at the you know, in the military, and that perspective 1135 01:23:51.560 --> 01:23:54.680 shaped LAPD. And you know that's why like air mobility 1136 01:23:55.479 --> 01:23:58.960 by uh, like the Vietnam era was a huge thing 1137 01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:01.840 with LAPD too. You know, like they make use of 1138 01:24:01.920 --> 01:24:05.279 shoppers in a way that northern police departments do. I mean, 1139 01:24:05.319 --> 01:24:09.079 part of that's just because the geography and the vastness 1140 01:24:09.079 --> 01:24:14.199 of the territory they're responsible for, but it's also a 1141 01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:17.880 very military way of like staying on target or I 1142 01:24:17.880 --> 01:24:20.159 don't I don't know how the police what their nomenclature 1143 01:24:20.239 --> 01:24:22.199 is for that. I'm sure they call it something different 1144 01:24:22.640 --> 01:24:27.680 that sounds less ominous or or or direct the action 1145 01:24:27.800 --> 01:24:28.479 oriented but. 1146 01:24:30.119 --> 01:24:34.039 Not not not to try to be funny, but Mayor 1147 01:24:34.079 --> 01:24:40.079 Goody and Philadelphia also used helicopters to change Philadelphia. Do 1148 01:24:40.159 --> 01:24:41.079 you remember that? 1149 01:24:42.000 --> 01:24:48.840 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, that's a fair point. 1150 01:24:49.680 --> 01:24:55.199 But the you know, the so it's on the one hand, 1151 01:24:56.439 --> 01:24:58.760 so it's kind of like two competing tendencies, like the 1152 01:24:58.920 --> 01:25:05.760 posture of police deployment away from you know, like uh 1153 01:25:06.119 --> 01:25:11.880 like like police literally walking beats in uh the same neighborhood. 1154 01:25:11.880 --> 01:25:15.039 It's just that they're insinuated into the community to like 1155 01:25:15.199 --> 01:25:18.520 rotating officers, you know, so they get like a citywide 1156 01:25:18.680 --> 01:25:22.720 perspective and get used to kind of interfacing with with 1157 01:25:22.840 --> 01:25:31.000 every major population segment. And you know, switching to police 1158 01:25:31.079 --> 01:25:34.279 cars over foot patrols. That was a huge Parker thing 1159 01:25:34.920 --> 01:25:37.039 because his whole thing too is like you know, and 1160 01:25:37.159 --> 01:25:42.279 being able to swarm a be you know, being able 1161 01:25:42.279 --> 01:25:48.760 to swarm units to uh to to reinforce officers in trouble, 1162 01:25:49.399 --> 01:25:51.319 you know, order to respond to the over running force 1163 01:25:51.439 --> 01:25:53.520 like that was a that was a Parker innovation and 1164 01:25:53.680 --> 01:26:02.119 uh this stuff, uh speaking of a wamba, I highly 1165 01:26:02.119 --> 01:26:07.239 recommend anything Wamba has written. But the Onion Field, which 1166 01:26:07.239 --> 01:26:13.880 is a horrible story. These two ILAPD playing clothes cops 1167 01:26:14.199 --> 01:26:17.560 were kidnapped and one of them was murdered. The other 1168 01:26:17.600 --> 01:26:21.960 guys survived and though the way he was treated was horrible. 1169 01:26:22.039 --> 01:26:27.279 But you know, in those days, like there there wasn't 1170 01:26:28.520 --> 01:26:33.279 you know, police radios were tied to the vehicle that 1171 01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:37.520 they were driving, and obviously there wasn't the same kind 1172 01:26:37.520 --> 01:26:43.039 of modern telecom and uh, if somebody got the drop 1173 01:26:43.079 --> 01:26:45.920 on you in those days, and previously, if you were 1174 01:26:45.960 --> 01:26:48.680 told to like surrender your weapon, you were like police 1175 01:26:48.680 --> 01:26:51.880 were told they should comply like subsequently, and this is 1176 01:26:51.920 --> 01:26:55.359 a Parker innovation. He said, like never ever surrender your 1177 01:26:55.399 --> 01:26:59.319 service weapon, you know, like Besis, you should die before 1178 01:26:59.359 --> 01:27:02.159 we ever give it weapon, you know, and the police 1179 01:27:02.239 --> 01:27:06.079 just adopted like a more military mindset and like across 1180 01:27:06.119 --> 01:27:10.000 the board. But at the same time, though, you know, 1181 01:27:10.039 --> 01:27:13.520 like I said, like Parker was very much part of 1182 01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:21.520 the sociologically progressive, academically polished class, that kind of bureaucrats 1183 01:27:21.560 --> 01:27:28.079 who represented the face twenty century policing, and interestingly, Gene 1184 01:27:28.199 --> 01:27:31.079 Roddenberry starred with lapd. You know, he's like the Star 1185 01:27:31.159 --> 01:27:33.279 Trek guy. I think Star Trek's goofy. I'm not a 1186 01:27:33.279 --> 01:27:37.600 fan of it, but the original series is a very 1187 01:27:37.680 --> 01:27:40.159 much kind of a time capsule of of like the 1188 01:27:40.279 --> 01:27:44.880 Kennedy sixties Kennedy or sixties. I realized it it endured 1189 01:27:44.920 --> 01:27:50.119 beyond that. But Captain Kirk is based on William H. Parker, 1190 01:27:50.800 --> 01:27:53.000 like like literally, like roden Berry said that, and like 1191 01:27:53.039 --> 01:27:56.159 he knew the guy, you know, and he's like that's 1192 01:27:56.239 --> 01:27:57.960 like Kirk is like this guy. He was like this 1193 01:27:58.079 --> 01:28:02.359 man of action, but he's also like mister you know, 1194 01:28:02.640 --> 01:28:05.680 he's always like exciting Abraham Lincoln in the Constitution and 1195 01:28:05.720 --> 01:28:08.800 he's like he's like mister like appeal to legal authority, 1196 01:28:08.840 --> 01:28:10.920 and we do everything by the book. He's supposed to 1197 01:28:10.960 --> 01:28:14.239 be William H. Parker, Okay. And that's also why, like 1198 01:28:14.760 --> 01:28:17.039 he's got like a multi racial crew and he's got 1199 01:28:17.279 --> 01:28:19.359 he's got the Russian guy on deck, he's got like 1200 01:28:19.399 --> 01:28:21.720 the effeminate Asian guy. He's got like the black woman 1201 01:28:21.760 --> 01:28:25.000 who's like his telecom officer. Like this this wasn't just 1202 01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:29.039 that this wasn't just token his time on television. I mean, yeah, 1203 01:28:29.079 --> 01:28:31.359 that was part of it, but that was very deliberate, 1204 01:28:31.439 --> 01:28:34.520 like this is this is whyam Mage Parker's police department 1205 01:28:34.560 --> 01:28:39.359 in space, you know, which which I think is interesting, 1206 01:28:40.439 --> 01:28:45.199 but ibe he had a kind of that kind of 1207 01:28:45.239 --> 01:28:49.479 stuff I'm talking about. And Wamba wrote directly about this 1208 01:28:49.920 --> 01:28:51.840 in his in the like he wrote it was in 1209 01:28:51.840 --> 01:28:55.680 the onion field, and he mentioned this later in his 1210 01:28:55.800 --> 01:29:00.720 life that like it's an ongoing like exam kind of 1211 01:29:00.720 --> 01:29:03.520 the weirdness of the of the sixties and kind of 1212 01:29:03.520 --> 01:29:10.039 the new the kind of new fangled progressivism of it. 1213 01:29:10.039 --> 01:29:11.920 It was on the game to be called colloquially the 1214 01:29:12.000 --> 01:29:16.399 coloquially the Blazer experiment, as in a blazer like a 1215 01:29:16.439 --> 01:29:22.279 sports jacket. And uh, this jurist this town called uh 1216 01:29:22.720 --> 01:29:28.359 Menlo Park in California, they hired this, but it was 1217 01:29:28.600 --> 01:29:38.840 they hired this police chief named, uh Victoria Cizankis. Cizankis, 1218 01:29:38.920 --> 01:29:43.600 I think I'm butchering that name, forgive me, but his 1219 01:29:44.800 --> 01:29:48.560 Melo Park was at They to say that had troubled community. 1220 01:29:48.640 --> 01:29:51.920 To say the troubled community relations the police department, I mean, 1221 01:29:52.239 --> 01:29:54.279 would be a gross understatement. Okay, I mean this was 1222 01:29:54.319 --> 01:29:58.840 nineteen sixty eight. That's kind of nationwide that these issues 1223 01:29:58.840 --> 01:30:04.479 were emerging, but it was pret particularly pronounced in Menlo Park. Okay, 1224 01:30:07.159 --> 01:30:14.680 they've been hit particularly hard by the nineteen sixties there. 1225 01:30:14.680 --> 01:30:18.199 It's located just south of San Francisco, so they caught 1226 01:30:18.199 --> 01:30:21.000 a lot of the same ship that the Bay Area 1227 01:30:21.119 --> 01:30:24.680 proper did, you know, a lot of like a lot 1228 01:30:24.680 --> 01:30:26.079 of a lot of a lot of a lot of 1229 01:30:26.119 --> 01:30:30.439 cultivated student radicalism. You know. When I say cultivated, I 1230 01:30:30.520 --> 01:30:32.640 mean you know, the usual suspects and g os and 1231 01:30:32.720 --> 01:30:36.039 things do what they can to provoke and orchestrate the 1232 01:30:36.119 --> 01:30:39.239 kind of thing. But it just like real, like real, 1233 01:30:40.000 --> 01:30:44.159 just like organic difficulties between the races, you know. As unfortunately, 1234 01:30:44.239 --> 01:30:54.279 as you know, southern California's associated with North and South. Uh. 1235 01:30:54.600 --> 01:30:58.039 The Memlo Park Coppers, their reputation is being kind of 1236 01:30:58.079 --> 01:31:04.079 a kick ass police department, and during racial incidents or 1237 01:31:04.000 --> 01:31:06.640 or anti war protest that got out of hand, like 1238 01:31:06.640 --> 01:31:08.399 like the police would go in and kickle out of 1239 01:31:08.439 --> 01:31:14.880 the ass. Okay, And this caused this, this, this this 1240 01:31:14.960 --> 01:31:23.119 caused real problems, all right. So Susannacis or Susankas, sorry, 1241 01:31:23.199 --> 01:31:29.399 Cesankas he's brought in and he's got this kind of 1242 01:31:29.439 --> 01:31:36.680 like radical orientation about policing. And it was called the 1243 01:31:36.680 --> 01:31:42.760 Blazer experiment because he did away with police uniforms. He's like, Okay, 1244 01:31:42.760 --> 01:31:44.279 from now on, he's like, we're not we're not We're 1245 01:31:44.279 --> 01:31:47.439 not gonna wear some paramilitary uniform with a sam Brown 1246 01:31:47.520 --> 01:31:51.680 belt and like uh, you know, like a piece on 1247 01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:57.439 your hip or we're not gonna do that anymore. So 1248 01:31:58.079 --> 01:32:02.279 these Menlo Park police, they started going around wearing like 1249 01:32:02.399 --> 01:32:05.800 khaki pants and these like green blazers, so they look 1250 01:32:05.880 --> 01:32:08.039 like guys who's worked at a country club or something. 1251 01:32:08.199 --> 01:32:11.319 And there's like this little like city crest on on 1252 01:32:11.600 --> 01:32:13.680 like the breast pocket like you can you can like 1253 01:32:13.720 --> 01:32:18.119 google is and it's it's ridiculous. And your your weapon, 1254 01:32:18.239 --> 01:32:21.600 your service weapon was always supposed to be out of view, okay, 1255 01:32:22.079 --> 01:32:24.800 either by way of a shoulder holster or you know, 1256 01:32:25.199 --> 01:32:29.479 discreetly squirreled away like in an ankle holster, you know, 1257 01:32:29.800 --> 01:32:32.520 because no one's never supposed to see it, you know. 1258 01:32:32.680 --> 01:32:37.279 And there's this whole there's this whole litany of kind 1259 01:32:37.319 --> 01:32:42.319 of rules for how you're supposed to and instigate like 1260 01:32:42.359 --> 01:32:44.920 basically a terarry stop and like even if you have to, 1261 01:32:45.199 --> 01:32:47.239 even if you have to, like you know, stop and 1262 01:32:47.239 --> 01:32:52.399 frisk somebody because they're obviously strapped, or because they're up 1263 01:32:52.439 --> 01:32:56.760 to you know, or because like your police instincts or 1264 01:32:56.800 --> 01:33:01.319 however they characterize it in those days, tells you that 1265 01:33:01.520 --> 01:33:06.079 you know that, you know, your spiky senses tell you 1266 01:33:06.199 --> 01:33:08.880 something you don't like about this this suspect. So frisk 1267 01:33:08.920 --> 01:33:11.319 imm and figure out the problem. Cause later you're supposed 1268 01:33:11.319 --> 01:33:15.439 to always like initiate those contacts by you know, but 1269 01:33:15.600 --> 01:33:18.239 by asking somebody if if if they if they have consent, 1270 01:33:18.359 --> 01:33:22.479 you know, ship like that, which is fucking stupid. Okay, 1271 01:33:24.119 --> 01:33:26.479 it was, it was. It was stupid, stupid today. It 1272 01:33:26.560 --> 01:33:29.119 was stupid back then. And like a lot of this 1273 01:33:29.199 --> 01:33:36.960 crap is coming back, but these days it's it's in 1274 01:33:37.279 --> 01:33:40.560 combination with various other factors, you know, like like like 1275 01:33:40.680 --> 01:33:44.199 policing as as it's existed is coming to an end, okay, 1276 01:33:44.239 --> 01:33:47.760 And so it's kind of interesting to me, Like in 1277 01:33:47.840 --> 01:33:52.439 nineteen sixty eight, uh, the the po model police work 1278 01:33:52.840 --> 01:33:56.439 as far from exhausted itself, obviously, but it's interesting that 1279 01:33:56.560 --> 01:33:58.399 some of this stuff is kind of coming back because 1280 01:33:58.439 --> 01:34:01.640 if it's an issue of first impression as people scrambled 1281 01:34:01.720 --> 01:34:08.119 kind of trying salvage this this obsolete model. But you know, 1282 01:34:08.199 --> 01:34:14.239 this caused, uh, this caused a lot of consternation among 1283 01:34:14.279 --> 01:34:17.439 the ranks of police departments because obviously there was these 1284 01:34:17.520 --> 01:34:22.600 like like like progressive types, you know, and including uh 1285 01:34:23.279 --> 01:34:27.840 Susanthas fans. They thought like this was great. But you know, 1286 01:34:27.920 --> 01:34:32.800 a cops who were who were dealing with burgeining anarchy 1287 01:34:32.840 --> 01:34:36.960 and real violence, you know in in Los Angeles and Chicago, 1288 01:34:37.039 --> 01:34:40.960 in Boston and Philly and New York City. You know, 1289 01:34:41.039 --> 01:34:44.800 being a cop was a dangerous job then, and you know, 1290 01:34:44.840 --> 01:34:48.319 you you very much were out gunned, you know, you 1291 01:34:48.520 --> 01:34:52.720 very much you were in jeopardy then in a way 1292 01:34:52.760 --> 01:34:58.359 you're not today. You know, I realized there's cops in 1293 01:34:59.760 --> 01:35:02.920 god forsaken places that are in fact under fire a lot, 1294 01:35:04.600 --> 01:35:07.960 and uh, they don't have the kind of forces and 1295 01:35:08.119 --> 01:35:13.199 being or the firepower to really be confident, you know, 1296 01:35:13.279 --> 01:35:17.800 and if if, if they get moved on. But that's 1297 01:35:17.840 --> 01:35:20.359 the exception, not the rule. Like in the nineteen sixties, 1298 01:35:20.399 --> 01:35:23.479 that was that was the rule, not the exception. Okay, 1299 01:35:24.600 --> 01:35:27.479 parts police department was was was was kind of the 1300 01:35:27.479 --> 01:35:32.600 exception because like they had all that stuff, but you know, 1301 01:35:32.680 --> 01:35:39.039 like very very very kind of rapidly this uh the 1302 01:35:39.119 --> 01:35:43.000 Blazer experiment. Uh, like people realize like this is just 1303 01:35:43.079 --> 01:35:45.920 not this is not something that's going to work. And 1304 01:35:46.039 --> 01:35:51.079 uh but the what did uh what what what did 1305 01:35:51.199 --> 01:35:57.840 linger though? Is you know, the the like like career 1306 01:35:57.880 --> 01:36:04.319 minded officers coming from more academically rigorous backgrounds. That's something 1307 01:36:04.319 --> 01:36:06.640 that endured really until like the early eighties, and then 1308 01:36:06.680 --> 01:36:09.159 by then like that was by then that was done. 1309 01:36:09.720 --> 01:36:12.600 You know, for a lot of reasons. Part of it 1310 01:36:12.640 --> 01:36:16.800 was a trickle down effect of of uh of military 1311 01:36:16.840 --> 01:36:19.119 industrial imperatives. I mean, I know that makes me sound 1312 01:36:19.119 --> 01:36:20.840 like some shopski. I don't. I don't mean it in 1313 01:36:20.880 --> 01:36:23.359 the same way that people like Key and zach Lyites do. 1314 01:36:23.560 --> 01:36:29.960 But it is a fact. But one of the one 1315 01:36:29.960 --> 01:36:31.920 of the one of the many kind of coheinds of 1316 01:36:32.000 --> 01:36:38.920 comical things about the Blazer experiments. The the organizational lingue 1317 01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:45.199 lingo of the police department was changed. Sergeants became managers 1318 01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:49.239 and police lieutenants and menlo were called directors. 1319 01:36:49.760 --> 01:36:49.960 Like it. 1320 01:36:50.159 --> 01:36:53.079 I mean that it's it's it's a comical bullshit. It's 1321 01:36:53.119 --> 01:36:55.199 got like the kind like there was some of that. 1322 01:36:55.239 --> 01:36:57.079 I don't like the Vietnam e are at military like 1323 01:36:57.119 --> 01:37:01.840 in the Poga and the Poe ranks. It's just you know, 1324 01:37:02.760 --> 01:37:09.199 a very strange era, man like this. But by the 1325 01:37:09.199 --> 01:37:14.520 early seventies, all this kind of all this all this 1326 01:37:14.560 --> 01:37:17.239 kind of stuff, and it kind of fallen out of 1327 01:37:17.279 --> 01:37:24.760 favor even, you know it even even among a kind 1328 01:37:24.800 --> 01:37:29.560 of the most art you know polemisis of uh, in 1329 01:37:29.880 --> 01:37:33.239 favor of you know, police reform, which in the interview 1330 01:37:33.319 --> 01:37:38.399 would you know kind of constitute a stripping of the 1331 01:37:38.439 --> 01:37:42.560 ability of big city police to you know, to meet 1332 01:37:42.920 --> 01:37:49.479 to meet brets. You know, this is like little remembered 1333 01:37:49.520 --> 01:37:52.720 the day, and it's remarkable the kind of short memory 1334 01:37:52.720 --> 01:37:56.640 people have. And I think about this a lot, especially 1335 01:37:56.640 --> 01:38:01.880 when there's when the regime tries been sitting with propaganda 1336 01:38:01.920 --> 01:38:09.079 about you know, domestic terrorism into in the policy discussions. 1337 01:38:09.119 --> 01:38:12.239 You know, uh, during the early nineteen seventies, there was 1338 01:38:12.319 --> 01:38:17.960 there was constant genuine like domestic terrorist incidents, you know, 1339 01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:26.000 coast to coast. Nixon and Jay R. Hoover, who you know, 1340 01:38:26.000 --> 01:38:28.239 even in the best of times, had a very contentious 1341 01:38:28.279 --> 01:38:35.760 and not at all friendly relationship to say the least. 1342 01:38:36.319 --> 01:38:40.960 This became such a concern that Nixon during June nineteen 1343 01:38:41.039 --> 01:38:48.520 seventy Nixon haled uh Hoover into the Oval Office and 1344 01:38:48.560 --> 01:38:53.439 he he said, have known certain terms that uh quote 1345 01:38:53.520 --> 01:38:59.319 revolutionary terror was the greatest single threat to like civil 1346 01:38:59.479 --> 01:39:05.279 order in America at the time. And that wasn't that 1347 01:39:05.439 --> 01:39:10.159 wasn't hyper believe. You know, there was like the weathermen 1348 01:39:10.479 --> 01:39:16.279 were going nuts. Uh. There was a half a dozen 1349 01:39:16.319 --> 01:39:21.800 other you know, self declared you know, like Mawist revolutionary 1350 01:39:22.279 --> 01:39:26.920 groupings that were dropping bodies and and and and and 1351 01:39:27.000 --> 01:39:33.119 pulling off ied attacks. You know, there were the Patty 1352 01:39:33.199 --> 01:39:36.600 Hurst incidents. It's almost so strange, like that seems like 1353 01:39:36.640 --> 01:39:41.039 something that like like a Hollywood screenwriter had like written 1354 01:39:41.039 --> 01:39:46.640 that Patty Hurst s l a situation into some script. 1355 01:39:46.800 --> 01:39:49.039 Like people would have laughed at it, saying there's no 1356 01:39:49.039 --> 01:39:51.119 way that could possibly happen. But I mean, but but 1357 01:39:51.159 --> 01:39:51.760 it happened. 1358 01:39:52.600 --> 01:39:56.119 You know, you had there's a lot of hijacking, a 1359 01:39:56.119 --> 01:39:57.760 lot of hijacking the planes too. 1360 01:39:58.479 --> 01:40:01.800 It became the norm. Yeah, it became something that was 1361 01:40:01.800 --> 01:40:07.680 as common as uh like armed robbery and yeah, the 1362 01:40:07.680 --> 01:40:11.760 the zebra killings you know, which were uh, which we're 1363 01:40:11.800 --> 01:40:15.840 what's we're horrifying, you know, And that was like part 1364 01:40:15.840 --> 01:40:22.439 of it was the deliberate suppression of of reporting on 1365 01:40:22.439 --> 01:40:26.000 on i've racially driven violence, so as the you know, 1366 01:40:26.920 --> 01:40:30.680 preclude escalation and the kindling effect, as it were. But 1367 01:40:30.720 --> 01:40:33.079 part of it was also like the zebra killings, people 1368 01:40:33.199 --> 01:40:38.119 don't know about them. It was this offshoot of the 1369 01:40:38.199 --> 01:40:43.600 five percenter faction of the ny who called themselves death Angels. Uh. 1370 01:40:44.239 --> 01:40:50.159 They went on this rampage of just random torture murders 1371 01:40:50.199 --> 01:40:55.399 of white people in the Bay Area, and the police 1372 01:40:55.520 --> 01:41:00.119 code UH for these incidents with zebra it's in it. 1373 01:41:00.119 --> 01:41:06.079 It's ironically accidental that, you know, the implication of zebras 1374 01:41:06.239 --> 01:41:10.159 is relating to black and white striping or whatever. But 1375 01:41:11.279 --> 01:41:13.239 that was going on at the same time the Zodiac 1376 01:41:13.359 --> 01:41:17.720 killer was was bodying people and and and taunting the cops. 1377 01:41:18.640 --> 01:41:21.399 So it's kind of overshadowed. But this is a real thing, 1378 01:41:22.520 --> 01:41:28.800 you know, and it uh there were throughout the seventies, 1379 01:41:28.880 --> 01:41:32.520 there was there was hundreds of these incidents every year, 1380 01:41:32.840 --> 01:41:41.359 you know, if not thousands, great and small the uh 1381 01:41:41.760 --> 01:41:44.640 and then downtown New York even this got this this 1382 01:41:44.680 --> 01:41:46.680 whole kind of air got kicked off. The summer of 1383 01:41:46.720 --> 01:41:52.840 sixty nine, this uh, this commie radical named Sam Melville, 1384 01:41:54.800 --> 01:41:58.920 him and his cadre, they bombed something like a dozen 1385 01:41:59.000 --> 01:42:03.760 buildings like in downtown Manhattan, you know, from the summer 1386 01:42:03.800 --> 01:42:07.079 of sixty nine until like that November, and then against 1387 01:42:07.119 --> 01:42:12.960 the seventies as ninety six nine, nineteen seventy it only 1388 01:42:13.319 --> 01:42:17.960 it only snowballed, you know, I mean, so it's kind 1389 01:42:17.960 --> 01:42:24.319 of it was kind of fertile ground for uh. Yeah, 1390 01:42:24.359 --> 01:42:27.840 by ninety seventy two, incredible as the city as I mean, 1391 01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:32.159 back in these days, FBI statistics were substantially more reliable 1392 01:42:32.159 --> 01:42:35.800 than today. In ninety seventy two, there was there there's 1393 01:42:35.880 --> 01:42:40.520 two thousand and five hundred politically motivated bombings or ied 1394 01:42:41.159 --> 01:42:45.119 attacks on American soil. That that that comes out to 1395 01:42:45.199 --> 01:42:50.239 five a day. Okay, excuse me, this is totally insane, 1396 01:42:51.600 --> 01:42:54.920 but that that's that's what laid the groundwork for kind 1397 01:42:54.920 --> 01:43:01.079 of nineteen eighties policing, which truly is when things truly 1398 01:43:01.079 --> 01:43:07.399 became paramilitarized, you know. And and Darryl Gates was the 1399 01:43:07.479 --> 01:43:13.680 standard bearer of that, you know, and Gates is most remembered, 1400 01:43:15.680 --> 01:43:17.920 I mean, I Gates was because I spent so much 1401 01:43:17.960 --> 01:43:21.199 time in La as a kid, and Gate Gates was 1402 01:43:21.199 --> 01:43:25.800 an intimidating guy, you know, like I any, and he 1403 01:43:25.920 --> 01:43:29.199 seemed he seemed the paramilitary, you know, like a lot 1404 01:43:29.279 --> 01:43:33.039 of big city cops either seemed they seem kind of 1405 01:43:33.039 --> 01:43:36.520 like either like Keystone cop eurocrats, you know, like goofs, 1406 01:43:38.640 --> 01:43:41.399 or they seemed just kind of like politicians like Gates, 1407 01:43:41.520 --> 01:43:44.560 like seemed like a bad dude, you know. And he'd 1408 01:43:44.640 --> 01:43:49.039 uh l a PD. You'd see him, uh, you know, 1409 01:43:49.079 --> 01:43:51.199 the L A p D. They didn't wear ties, they'd 1410 01:43:51.199 --> 01:43:54.600 wear those like uh, they'd wear those like v neck 1411 01:43:54.680 --> 01:43:58.760 like button. I'm sure it's like a vest. They looked 1412 01:43:58.800 --> 01:44:01.800 like super modern, and and they were all a bunch 1413 01:44:01.840 --> 01:44:03.359 of like in the eighties, they were all a bunch 1414 01:44:03.359 --> 01:44:06.680 of like buffed out, like tough looking guys. You know. 1415 01:44:07.439 --> 01:44:09.520 I was just I was used to like Chicago cops 1416 01:44:09.520 --> 01:44:12.319 look like goons and the and they've always come heavy, 1417 01:44:12.359 --> 01:44:14.760 but they like Scha cops. The air kind of looked 1418 01:44:14.760 --> 01:44:17.399 like fat ass like mob guys or something, you know. 1419 01:44:17.600 --> 01:44:20.279 So like in LA as a kid, I was always 1420 01:44:20.359 --> 01:44:23.720 kind of tripped out by Darryl Gates and OAPD. But 1421 01:44:25.720 --> 01:44:27.800 you know what Gates is most kind of known for 1422 01:44:27.920 --> 01:44:38.359 is stuff like the CRASH program, which began prior to 1423 01:44:38.399 --> 01:44:42.920 gates his tenure. But you know, the movie Colors like 1424 01:44:43.119 --> 01:44:46.520 was about CRASH, which is an acronym for Community Resources 1425 01:44:46.560 --> 01:44:52.600 against Street Hooligans. It uh, it originally was called TRASH 1426 01:44:52.960 --> 01:44:56.079 Total Resources against Street Houlians. And I would say the 1427 01:44:56.199 --> 01:44:58.520 references like we're like the garbage man, We're taking out 1428 01:44:58.560 --> 01:45:04.079 the fucking trash, and LABD realized like when that would 1429 01:45:04.119 --> 01:45:09.479 public well this this isn't like great pr But you know, 1430 01:45:09.560 --> 01:45:13.920 Gates also was the father of SWAT. He devised SWAT, 1431 01:45:13.960 --> 01:45:18.039 which initially was Special Weapons Assault Team. You know, then 1432 01:45:18.039 --> 01:45:24.239 we have special weapons and tactics. But uh, Gates divides 1433 01:45:24.319 --> 01:45:30.199 that during Parker's tenure, you know, and uh that was 1434 01:45:30.279 --> 01:45:32.600 actually very forward looking, like one of the reasons why 1435 01:45:32.760 --> 01:45:34.680 one of one of a million reasons why the FBI 1436 01:45:35.119 --> 01:45:37.439 is like it's head up his ass, you know how, 1437 01:45:37.479 --> 01:45:40.319 Like their direct to action capability is still the hostage 1438 01:45:40.359 --> 01:45:44.159 rescue team and their operational paradigm like until very recently 1439 01:45:44.359 --> 01:45:47.159 was that treat everything as if it's a hostage situation, 1440 01:45:47.239 --> 01:45:51.439 which makes which makes no sense. Whatsoever, Like Gates a 1441 01:45:51.560 --> 01:45:57.800 SWAT model was it? I mean he actually proceeded. He 1442 01:45:57.880 --> 01:45:59.920 proceeded kind of like a lot of the a lot 1443 01:45:59.920 --> 01:46:05.039 of the military types were dynamically and progressive minded of 1444 01:46:05.079 --> 01:46:08.520 the day in tactical terms, I mean not political terms. 1445 01:46:08.920 --> 01:46:15.000 You know, who were around like the Special Operations Forces community, 1446 01:46:15.079 --> 01:46:16.720 you know, and in those days, I was before there 1447 01:46:16.760 --> 01:46:21.000 was an integrated command or anything, and it was hard 1448 01:46:21.039 --> 01:46:23.520 to get anything done. It's like in the individual commands 1449 01:46:23.560 --> 01:46:25.920 it kind of what kind of made or broke everything was, 1450 01:46:26.479 --> 01:46:29.279 you know, who was in a leadership role. But but 1451 01:46:29.319 --> 01:46:32.239 for better or we worse LPD SWAT, you know, they 1452 01:46:32.279 --> 01:46:35.119 they were very dynamic, you know, and there's a kind 1453 01:46:35.119 --> 01:46:39.920 of a full repertoire of of of force responses that 1454 01:46:40.000 --> 01:46:43.199 they trained for, you know, and they were very serious guys. 1455 01:46:43.239 --> 01:46:49.520 But crash and which culminated in an Operation Hammer, which 1456 01:46:49.560 --> 01:46:52.079 the opening on the movie Colors, which I think Colors 1457 01:46:52.079 --> 01:46:57.000 is a fucking great movie, but the opening scene or 1458 01:46:57.119 --> 01:47:01.840 LAPD they they just like swarm the city and they 1459 01:47:01.880 --> 01:47:05.359 basically like they basically throw bracelets on like every known 1460 01:47:05.399 --> 01:47:08.680 gang member or like everybody or like every or every 1461 01:47:08.720 --> 01:47:11.680 like military age male like flying colors and they like 1462 01:47:11.720 --> 01:47:16.119 throw them in the county jail, you know, to kind 1463 01:47:16.119 --> 01:47:18.640 of get an idea like not like not just to 1464 01:47:19.600 --> 01:47:21.479 like send it, to literally lay the hammer down and 1465 01:47:21.520 --> 01:47:24.479 say like l E. P D runs the street. But uh, 1466 01:47:24.600 --> 01:47:26.279 they wanted to get an under they wanted they wanted 1467 01:47:26.319 --> 01:47:29.319 to also like get these guys government names all in 1468 01:47:29.319 --> 01:47:31.600 the system, but they also wanted to get an idea 1469 01:47:31.720 --> 01:47:34.720 like forest levels that like major sets head you know, crips, 1470 01:47:34.720 --> 01:47:42.079 Blood's Eighteenth Street, you know, all those all all those 1471 01:47:42.079 --> 01:47:46.119 mobs in in in south central and East LA. But 1472 01:47:48.239 --> 01:47:51.520 it was, uh, but that but that that was to 1473 01:47:51.720 --> 01:47:54.119 the end of like community based policing. It's like, okay, 1474 01:47:54.159 --> 01:47:58.119 we got the spare plunk of our forests. Crash you know, 1475 01:47:58.359 --> 01:48:04.039 every uh every police I think there's eighteen police districts 1476 01:48:04.079 --> 01:48:07.640 in Los Angeles and every district had a crash unit. 1477 01:48:08.239 --> 01:48:10.880 Now like a sign to it, but crash had like 1478 01:48:11.000 --> 01:48:14.279 city wide jurisdiction. Like a lot of these guys had 1479 01:48:14.279 --> 01:48:17.439 been actively gang banging like before they you know, went 1480 01:48:17.479 --> 01:48:21.399 to the police academy. L APD knew that and they 1481 01:48:21.479 --> 01:48:24.680 did like vet these guys somewhat, but obviously came in 1482 01:48:24.720 --> 01:48:26.319 you know, they ran into problems. One of the things 1483 01:48:26.319 --> 01:48:31.760 that blew the fucking lid off of a rampart scandal 1484 01:48:32.159 --> 01:48:33.920 is like one of the one of those dudes who 1485 01:48:34.039 --> 01:48:36.439 was affiliated with death Row Records was like one of 1486 01:48:36.439 --> 01:48:39.600 their security operatives. He was he was an act. He 1487 01:48:39.680 --> 01:48:42.760 was an active LAPD cop. He got into a shootout 1488 01:48:42.800 --> 01:48:45.119 with some other off duty cop over like this over 1489 01:48:45.159 --> 01:48:51.239 some traffic bullshits and dude died like whoever he was 1490 01:48:51.279 --> 01:48:54.880 throwing shots at like you know, return fire and killed him. 1491 01:48:55.319 --> 01:48:57.880 And uh, dude calls it in you know, the other 1492 01:48:58.119 --> 01:49:00.279 off duty cops like yeah, like you know, like that 1493 01:49:00.319 --> 01:49:03.039 has killed this guy who like you know, started squeezing 1494 01:49:03.119 --> 01:49:06.640 rounds off like lo and behold the found. This guy's 1495 01:49:06.640 --> 01:49:09.840 a cop. He like works for death Row. He's clicked 1496 01:49:09.920 --> 01:49:12.600 up with the you know, the same set that like 1497 01:49:12.680 --> 01:49:15.680 Suge Knight and all them guys were. But that but 1498 01:49:15.760 --> 01:49:18.000 that came about like l EPD tried to play it 1499 01:49:18.000 --> 01:49:19.880 off like all this guy was on bad apple loose 1500 01:49:19.880 --> 01:49:23.319 stood through the cracks, you know, and unfortunately a lot 1501 01:49:23.359 --> 01:49:26.079 of young guys from South central you know or insane 1502 01:49:26.119 --> 01:49:28.880 with into that that life and are thugging it. No, 1503 01:49:29.079 --> 01:49:32.199 that's that's not what happened, man, Like they like they 1504 01:49:32.439 --> 01:49:34.039 like the whole thing would crash was that a lot 1505 01:49:34.079 --> 01:49:37.119 of the guys were on record that like a lot 1506 01:49:37.119 --> 01:49:39.159 of their a lot of their officers like on record 1507 01:49:39.199 --> 01:49:41.079 with like different mobs. That's one of the reasons why 1508 01:49:41.119 --> 01:49:46.960 they were feared, you know. But that, uh, that's one 1509 01:49:46.960 --> 01:49:49.520 of the reasons too. Interestingly, also, you know, like the 1510 01:49:49.560 --> 01:49:55.159 Compton police Department no longer exists, and they were they 1511 01:49:55.239 --> 01:49:58.319 were like a heavy squad man like, they were very tough, 1512 01:49:59.039 --> 01:50:02.600 but they they were kind of like a micro cosm 1513 01:50:02.760 --> 01:50:06.239 of you know this, they had their own culture because 1514 01:50:06.319 --> 01:50:07.520 and I mean they were you know, they were their 1515 01:50:07.560 --> 01:50:11.600 own police department. But they I think now Common's police 1516 01:50:11.640 --> 01:50:15.079 by La County Sheriffs like like the the so call 1517 01:50:15.159 --> 01:50:18.039 fellas will correct me, but I think that to his jurisdiction. 1518 01:50:18.720 --> 01:50:23.319 But they it was like the same institutional sensibility and 1519 01:50:23.399 --> 01:50:28.960 Compton like in a scaled down way, but like Chicago 1520 01:50:29.119 --> 01:50:32.439 was different, Like uh, like Chicago was done like a 1521 01:50:32.439 --> 01:50:35.159 thug police department and still is in a lot of ways, 1522 01:50:35.560 --> 01:50:38.279 but like they did stuff differently, you know, and it 1523 01:50:38.319 --> 01:50:41.199 was like the big the kind of share punk of 1524 01:50:41.319 --> 01:50:44.359 Chicago Police was like the Red Squad which endured until 1525 01:50:44.359 --> 01:50:51.840 the eighties, you know, but they uh it was just different. 1526 01:50:51.880 --> 01:50:57.159 But the it uh and less like overtly paramilitary. I 1527 01:50:57.159 --> 01:50:59.840 guess that's like part of it. Like Chicago PD. The 1528 01:51:00.319 --> 01:51:02.920 is kind of like a moie thief, like the way 1529 01:51:03.079 --> 01:51:06.720 the way those guys their relationship to the outfit and 1530 01:51:06.800 --> 01:51:09.279 kind of just like the way they do things. It's 1531 01:51:09.319 --> 01:51:14.279 like it's like low key whatever presence. You know, it's 1532 01:51:14.319 --> 01:51:17.359 a it was a different kind of sensibility. But you 1533 01:51:17.399 --> 01:51:22.560 know that was the big thing. Uh, my big memory 1534 01:51:22.600 --> 01:51:25.720 of Gates, you know whatever, Like I said, growing up 1535 01:51:25.720 --> 01:51:28.960 when I when I'd be in so call, like you know, 1536 01:51:29.039 --> 01:51:31.840 Gates was on TV a lot and and then like 1537 01:51:31.880 --> 01:51:34.520 a lot of like kind of mainstream like right wing 1538 01:51:34.560 --> 01:51:37.399 guys like love Darryl Gates. There's even a video game. 1539 01:51:37.479 --> 01:51:39.880 You remember you were Sierras Systems that there's those those 1540 01:51:39.960 --> 01:51:43.840 kings Quest games. Okay, there was there was kings Quest, 1541 01:51:43.840 --> 01:51:46.960 there was Space Quest. Well there was Darryl Gates Police 1542 01:51:47.039 --> 01:51:50.119 Quest for like the Apple two C And I remember 1543 01:51:50.159 --> 01:51:52.079 like a friend of mine, like junior high, he like 1544 01:51:52.159 --> 01:51:55.880 gave me like a copy of it. Let me borrow 1545 01:51:55.880 --> 01:51:58.680 it or something. And uh yeah, like Darryl Gates is 1546 01:51:58.720 --> 01:52:01.239 like the only police pigs he please you in America. 1547 01:52:01.439 --> 01:52:03.319 He had like his face in a freaking video game. 1548 01:52:03.920 --> 01:52:07.119 But uh, but people, there's a there's a bunch of 1549 01:52:08.520 --> 01:52:10.960 like I remember fools like Martin Downey Junior like loved 1550 01:52:11.039 --> 01:52:13.119 Daryl Gates. But then the other side, you know, he was, 1551 01:52:13.239 --> 01:52:17.520 uh he was like this hate figure for for for 1552 01:52:17.640 --> 01:52:21.239 liberals and stuff. But I remember when poor Reginald Denny 1553 01:52:21.359 --> 01:52:25.880 got moved on by them people in South Central and 1554 01:52:25.880 --> 01:52:27.600 it was the truck driver got pulled out of his 1555 01:52:28.600 --> 01:52:31.800 pulled out of his truck and and and and beaten 1556 01:52:31.880 --> 01:52:35.239 an into his life. You know, his skull fractures. There's 1557 01:52:35.239 --> 01:52:39.840 a horrible case. Gates personally arrested, served the warrants on 1558 01:52:39.880 --> 01:52:42.800 those suspects, and he was in like full riot gear. 1559 01:52:43.199 --> 01:52:45.520 It seemed tasteless to me. It's like, okay, first of all, 1560 01:52:45.560 --> 01:52:48.159 it's not a role appropriate for a fucking police chief. 1561 01:52:48.560 --> 01:52:51.279 Like secondly, it's like you're using this poor guy's victimization 1562 01:52:51.479 --> 01:52:53.560 as some flex like get out of here. 1563 01:52:53.600 --> 01:52:53.760 Man. 1564 01:52:53.840 --> 01:52:57.359 It's it really rubbed me the wrong way, you know, 1565 01:52:58.720 --> 01:53:02.239 And those are those were very bits times, but but Gates, 1566 01:53:04.840 --> 01:53:09.000 you know, he also one of the things that ampathet 1567 01:53:09.079 --> 01:53:12.880 to people about the about the O. J. Simpson case 1568 01:53:13.159 --> 01:53:16.560 is that the state deserve to lose that case. You're 1569 01:53:16.560 --> 01:53:18.960 not just like entitled to a verdict when you can't 1570 01:53:20.239 --> 01:53:22.760 when when you know, when when you can't account for 1571 01:53:22.800 --> 01:53:25.399 the chain of custody of your evidence, you know, when 1572 01:53:25.399 --> 01:53:29.840 you've got like literal clowns like uh like Chris Darden 1573 01:53:29.840 --> 01:53:33.000 and Mercia Clark hitting up your proscatorial team. But the 1574 01:53:33.039 --> 01:53:35.399 whole like keep also don't understand. And some of the 1575 01:53:35.479 --> 01:53:38.920 jurors attested to this, you know, Mark Furman is a 1576 01:53:38.960 --> 01:53:42.760 total fucking weirdo, like like a total weirdo, and like 1577 01:53:42.800 --> 01:53:46.199 it's not everybody's like, oh people just people just acquitted 1578 01:53:46.239 --> 01:53:50.319 OJ because of racism. That's not really what put people 1579 01:53:50.359 --> 01:53:53.199 off about Furman. I mean, yeah, that didn't help any 1580 01:53:53.319 --> 01:53:55.399 I'm sure with some of those jurors were like ignorant 1581 01:53:55.439 --> 01:53:57.199 people who were like, oh, he said the N word. 1582 01:53:57.720 --> 01:54:00.960 But the context of how those tapes came about, we're bizarre. 1583 01:54:01.439 --> 01:54:05.079 Furman was a compulsive liar. He was a stolen valor case, 1584 01:54:06.039 --> 01:54:08.439 like he lied about being like underfire and nom and 1585 01:54:08.560 --> 01:54:11.239 like like all these shit, the dude, it's a fucking psycho, 1586 01:54:12.159 --> 01:54:15.000 you know, Like that's the real issue with him. And 1587 01:54:15.119 --> 01:54:19.760 it was pretty obvious he and van at are they 1588 01:54:19.800 --> 01:54:22.840 basically framed a guilty guy, because that's just like what 1589 01:54:22.880 --> 01:54:25.800 they did. And this is like what LAPD did. You 1590 01:54:25.800 --> 01:54:28.920 show up on the scene, you decide how you know, 1591 01:54:29.039 --> 01:54:32.279 you can fabulate a narrative about how you came upon 1592 01:54:32.319 --> 01:54:35.079 the inculplatory evidence. Then you kind of just like arrange 1593 01:54:35.079 --> 01:54:37.680 it whoever you want. And that's like what you put 1594 01:54:37.720 --> 01:54:42.359 on record, as you know, and as to what becomes 1595 01:54:42.359 --> 01:54:45.840 the case in chief. And I've had guys say to me, 1596 01:54:46.159 --> 01:54:48.840 all police departments did that, and I'm like, no, they didn't. Man, 1597 01:54:49.359 --> 01:54:53.800 Like that's really nuts and really screwy. You know, that's 1598 01:54:53.800 --> 01:54:58.079 a screwy way to do it, and and unnecessary. You know, 1599 01:54:58.119 --> 01:55:02.600 like if they if they played that stray from from jump, 1600 01:55:02.800 --> 01:55:06.000 they would have gotten their conviction. But I mean everything 1601 01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:08.680 about it was like, goofy man. And then and then OJ, 1602 01:55:09.640 --> 01:55:13.560 he's an armed man, he's wanted for multiple murder. He's 1603 01:55:13.600 --> 01:55:16.560 traveling at a high rate of speed to the airport. 1604 01:55:16.880 --> 01:55:19.319 If I do that, I get shot in the face. 1605 01:55:19.520 --> 01:55:23.680 Immediately by like swat OJ they're like calling him on 1606 01:55:23.720 --> 01:55:26.840 his cell phone, like politely asking him to turn himself in. 1607 01:55:27.119 --> 01:55:29.199 So it's on the one hand, you're like framing a 1608 01:55:29.239 --> 01:55:31.960 guilty guy. We don't need to. But then instead of 1609 01:55:32.000 --> 01:55:34.640 like throwing the bracelets on him when he's when he 1610 01:55:34.720 --> 01:55:37.159 when he's when he's wanted for double murder, you're like 1611 01:55:37.319 --> 01:55:39.560 calling him and asking him to come by like at 1612 01:55:39.600 --> 01:55:42.479 the traffic tickets. I mean, this is this is real dysfunction, 1613 01:55:43.439 --> 01:55:46.079 you know, like and it's and that that's one hundred 1614 01:55:46.199 --> 01:55:53.039 ten percent the fault of the internal leadership cadre of LAPD. 1615 01:55:53.239 --> 01:55:56.239 It's not like God being liberals like ruining police work 1616 01:55:56.600 --> 01:55:58.479 like they did a lot of this ship to themselves. 1617 01:55:59.279 --> 01:56:02.079 You know, I have a and uh and having and 1618 01:56:02.159 --> 01:56:05.159 having dudes or like on record like with the crips 1619 01:56:05.239 --> 01:56:08.560 or whatever, like actively gang banging like in l E. 1620 01:56:08.640 --> 01:56:11.720 P D when and and it being like totally above 1621 01:56:11.760 --> 01:56:15.560 board that they're gang bangers. But it's okay because this 1622 01:56:15.600 --> 01:56:18.239 is part of how we this is this is part 1623 01:56:18.279 --> 01:56:21.840 of how we you know, we maintain our our high 1624 01:56:21.920 --> 01:56:26.079 level of police intelligence. These are the are four I 1625 01:56:26.079 --> 01:56:28.840 mean that that's that's totally insane and you can't you 1626 01:56:28.880 --> 01:56:30.960 can't put that on like the Enemies of Law and 1627 01:56:31.079 --> 01:56:36.960 order like that that came from insidellit PV man. But yeah, 1628 01:56:36.960 --> 01:56:38.880 we're coming up on the hour. I think, man, let's 1629 01:56:39.960 --> 01:56:42.119 let's call it. I'll do a part three on Joseph 1630 01:56:42.199 --> 01:56:45.640 Wamba and if you want me to or if if 1631 01:56:45.680 --> 01:56:50.079 if you yeah, okay, part will cover. Yeah, we'll cover 1632 01:56:50.119 --> 01:56:52.279 to the onion field and Joseph Wambas. I think that 1633 01:56:52.279 --> 01:56:55.439 that's important stuff. But yeah, I don't see. 1634 01:56:56.279 --> 01:56:58.920 I mean there were nineteen eighty and nineteen eighty nine 1635 01:56:59.479 --> 01:57:01.800 there were race riots in Miami. I mean I lived 1636 01:57:01.800 --> 01:57:04.119 in Miami for you know, I lived in South Florida 1637 01:57:04.520 --> 01:57:07.680 because of police shootings and and and things. It was. 1638 01:57:08.000 --> 01:57:11.760 I mean, these were precursors to the to what happened 1639 01:57:11.760 --> 01:57:14.239 in l A. And they were bad overtown riots and 1640 01:57:14.319 --> 01:57:17.159 eighty nine I was. I was down there for that and. 1641 01:57:17.479 --> 01:57:20.680 There was no joke man, nuts man, Yeah, no, I remember. 1642 01:57:20.960 --> 01:57:24.119 It was. It was. It was scary ship oh it was. 1643 01:57:24.760 --> 01:57:29.239 It was open combat in the streets. It was open streets. Yeah. 1644 01:57:29.640 --> 01:57:33.720 In Miami too because of cartel ship and other stuff. 1645 01:57:33.720 --> 01:57:36.039 There was like a ton of fucking hardware on the 1646 01:57:36.079 --> 01:57:39.880 street in Miami, man, Like everybody was like teeth, I mean, 1647 01:57:40.399 --> 01:57:46.920 dudes like shooting it out with like like literally. 1648 01:57:47.039 --> 01:57:49.079 Mac Ten's were like two hundred bucks. 1649 01:57:49.479 --> 01:57:54.000 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah crazy yeah. No, Miami is 1650 01:57:54.239 --> 01:57:58.439 no joke, man, especially then. Yeah, you've been all over 1651 01:57:58.479 --> 01:58:00.680 the South, man, Like that's that's fascinating. 1652 01:58:02.319 --> 01:58:08.760 But uh, South Florida back in the eighties, cocaine cowboys. 1653 01:58:09.000 --> 01:58:13.159 It was bodies dropping everywhere everywhere. 1654 01:58:13.279 --> 01:58:15.159 It was like, uh yeah, it was. It was like 1655 01:58:15.199 --> 01:58:18.960 low intensity and sometimes not the low intensity warfare. Man. No, 1656 01:58:19.079 --> 01:58:22.760 my Miami Dade the police department was a serious police 1657 01:58:22.800 --> 01:58:27.800 department too, man, Like, yeah, no doubt, that's fascinating stuff. Man, 1658 01:58:28.000 --> 01:58:30.640 Florida the fancaying state, man, and people like throw shade 1659 01:58:30.640 --> 01:58:33.800 on it, you know, like Florida man, and it's become 1660 01:58:33.880 --> 01:58:37.159 like a meme. I mean, and it's got kind of 1661 01:58:37.159 --> 01:58:40.199 a crazy history going back and something like the Black Seminoles, 1662 01:58:40.399 --> 01:58:43.319 Like you realized the Black Seminoles. It was like it 1663 01:58:43.399 --> 01:58:45.760 was like outlaw white dudes on the run. It was 1664 01:58:45.760 --> 01:58:50.800 like runaway slaves like Indian braves who had been like 1665 01:58:50.880 --> 01:58:53.000 cast out of their tribe whatever, who like became this 1666 01:58:53.079 --> 01:58:55.079 kind of like Mad Max sort of mob. That's what 1667 01:58:55.119 --> 01:58:58.239 the Black Seminoles were. It was like. 1668 01:58:59.359 --> 01:59:02.800 Florida's Florida has always been insane. I mean, they never 1669 01:59:02.920 --> 01:59:05.680 surrendered in the war and like they know and and 1670 01:59:05.880 --> 01:59:10.720 DC was like, oh, we don't care, we'll leave them. 1671 01:59:10.880 --> 01:59:15.159 Yeah no, it's it's an insane place. And yeah, yeah, no, 1672 01:59:15.279 --> 01:59:17.520 it's wild. But yeah no, Well we'll do a part 1673 01:59:17.560 --> 01:59:21.239 three then and Wamba and specifically the Onion Field and 1674 01:59:21.640 --> 01:59:24.439 some of his other stuff, and we'll get into like 1675 01:59:24.479 --> 01:59:27.279 the Vietnam War and the LPD culture because they were 1676 01:59:27.279 --> 01:59:31.760 inextricably bound up. But no, this was I'm going I'm 1677 01:59:31.760 --> 01:59:35.039 going to the inauguration in DC on Saturday, but all 1678 01:59:35.720 --> 01:59:37.600 we I'll want to be gone a few days back 1679 01:59:37.600 --> 01:59:39.520 in the twenty second. But if you want to bang 1680 01:59:39.560 --> 01:59:41.079 another one out before we go, or if you want 1681 01:59:41.079 --> 01:59:43.279 to do like movie night, we could do that too, 1682 01:59:43.479 --> 01:59:45.199 or if you want to wait to get big, that's fine. 1683 01:59:45.439 --> 01:59:48.079 But techno, well, yeah, we'll talk. We'll talk about it. 1684 01:59:48.119 --> 01:59:51.079 I'll text to you later, do quick plugs, and we'll 1685 01:59:51.079 --> 01:59:52.279 get out of here. I gotta go do an o 1686 01:59:52.399 --> 01:59:53.119 GC meeting. 1687 01:59:54.000 --> 01:59:57.319 Yeah, yes, sir, yeah, Bescially if the fine, he's on Substick. 1688 01:59:57.880 --> 02:00:00.600 We'll launch the season three of the pod in February. 1689 02:00:01.199 --> 02:00:03.439 But there's all kinds of good stuff there, including a 1690 02:00:03.479 --> 02:00:07.439 pretty active chip. It's real Thomas seven seven seven dot 1691 02:00:07.479 --> 02:00:11.680 substick dot com. I'm on social media at Capital R 1692 02:00:11.720 --> 02:00:15.000 E A L Underscore number seven h O A S 1693 02:00:15.000 --> 02:00:21.199 seven seven seven. I'm on uh Instagram, I'm on t 1694 02:00:21.439 --> 02:00:25.520 ram Uh. You can find me on my website Thomas 1695 02:00:25.560 --> 02:00:28.600 seven seven seven dot com. It's at number seven and 1696 02:00:28.680 --> 02:00:31.000 move a T h O M A S seven seven 1697 02:00:31.119 --> 02:00:32.760 seven dot com. That's all I get. 1698 02:00:33.680 --> 02:00:36.800 All right, thank you have Let's try and record something 1699 02:00:36.840 --> 02:00:38.720 before you leave. But if not, have fun. 1700 02:00:39.560 --> 02:00:41.079 Yeah, no we will man, Thank you, Waddy. 1701 02:00:42.520 --> 02:00:45.840 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecamana Show. Thomas. 1702 02:00:45.920 --> 02:00:48.960 Let's finish out this police series. Uh, what'd you want 1703 02:00:48.960 --> 02:00:52.479 to talk about today? I think Joseph wambas in the 1704 02:00:52.560 --> 02:00:53.159 on the menu. 1705 02:00:54.600 --> 02:00:59.560 Yeah, I I marked out Joseph Wamba for a dedicated 1706 02:01:00.800 --> 02:01:07.319 episode because I think he's important. I he wasn't. He's 1707 02:01:07.319 --> 02:01:09.439 still alive. I think he's got to be very elgerly 1708 02:01:09.479 --> 02:01:13.319 not he's got to be on ninety he was very 1709 02:01:13.399 --> 02:01:16.720 much a documentarian, though of the period in which we're 1710 02:01:16.760 --> 02:01:19.520 talking about, when it was in when police modern policing 1711 02:01:19.560 --> 02:01:21.600 was very much in transition, and when arguably it was 1712 02:01:21.640 --> 02:01:26.720 a kind of a dizenith in terms of you know, 1713 02:01:26.840 --> 02:01:33.880 it's administrative clout and it's it being respected kind of 1714 02:01:33.880 --> 02:01:38.319 as an essential institution of government. And Wamba was an 1715 02:01:38.359 --> 02:01:41.319 East Coast guy. He came from Pittsburgh. He was German 1716 02:01:41.359 --> 02:01:44.000 Irish and his dad was a policeman out there. But 1717 02:01:44.119 --> 02:01:47.840 Wamba he joined LAPD when he got out of the 1718 02:01:47.880 --> 02:01:49.800 Marine Corps as a young guy, and I think he 1719 02:01:50.239 --> 02:01:53.520 started about fourteen years as a police you know, from 1720 02:01:53.600 --> 02:01:58.199 nineteen sixty until the mid seventies. But for context, like 1721 02:01:58.279 --> 02:02:02.159 a lot of dudes would all they'd relocate to la 1722 02:02:02.199 --> 02:02:05.600 to join LAPD. LAPD was like the top of policing. 1723 02:02:06.560 --> 02:02:11.199 And one of the things that was peculiar about nineteen 1724 02:02:11.279 --> 02:02:14.039 ninety one and the Rodney King situation, Like it wasn't 1725 02:02:14.079 --> 02:02:17.279 peculiar that that happened. It wasn't peculiar unfortunately that it 1726 02:02:17.399 --> 02:02:20.640 jumped off into this race war. But a lot of 1727 02:02:20.640 --> 02:02:24.239 people don't understand that. Unlike Chicago especially, but also like 1728 02:02:24.319 --> 02:02:26.399 unlike I mean, our police department, we all like a 1729 02:02:26.399 --> 02:02:30.560 thug police department, you know, like we really do. I 1730 02:02:30.640 --> 02:02:36.159 grudgingly like Chicago Feed for reasons. I've got like a 1731 02:02:36.199 --> 02:02:40.560 complicated relationship with them, but uh, they never had They 1732 02:02:40.640 --> 02:02:44.199 always had like a dirty fucking reputation. And New York, 1733 02:02:44.520 --> 02:02:46.399 you know, they always had a reputation as being like 1734 02:02:46.439 --> 02:02:50.319 corrupted by like ward BOSSESM and like mafia politics and stuff. 1735 02:02:51.079 --> 02:02:53.680 But like LA, it was considered to be this like impeccable, 1736 02:02:54.920 --> 02:02:58.000 impeccably professional police force, and they had a wrap for 1737 02:02:58.119 --> 02:03:01.000 like not being quote unquote recently and like they actually 1738 02:03:01.000 --> 02:03:04.840 had a rep for you know being you know, very 1739 02:03:04.840 --> 02:03:09.039 progressive according to the relevant metrics. I don't like that term, 1740 02:03:09.119 --> 02:03:12.520 but you know, just people understand what I mean. I'm sure. 1741 02:03:13.159 --> 02:03:15.079 So the fact that this like kind of took a 1742 02:03:15.159 --> 02:03:20.079 nose dive in the early nineties is interesting, you know, 1743 02:03:20.199 --> 02:03:24.239 but that's Wambach started writing when he was a cop, 1744 02:03:24.319 --> 02:03:27.680 and his first his first book was The New Centurions, 1745 02:03:28.000 --> 02:03:30.119 which is very much kind of like Approbe. It's almost 1746 02:03:30.199 --> 02:03:33.760 like the top gun of like the police Department. You know, 1747 02:03:33.800 --> 02:03:36.520 it's about like hero cops doing this crazy stuff like 1748 02:03:36.560 --> 02:03:38.119 a lot of and the centerpiece is kind of the 1749 02:03:38.159 --> 02:03:42.560 watch riots and then he wrote The Blue Night, which 1750 02:03:42.600 --> 02:03:44.880 was very much in that vein. But then like when 1751 02:03:44.880 --> 02:03:46.840 he when he realized he could get paid as an 1752 02:03:46.880 --> 02:03:52.319 author and his books were actually moving at volume, you know, 1753 02:03:52.399 --> 02:03:54.760 he retired away from the police department to write, and 1754 02:03:54.800 --> 02:03:57.439 then he wrote The Choir Boys, which is like this 1755 02:03:57.560 --> 02:04:02.079 kind of savage takedown of lapd you know it like 1756 02:04:02.119 --> 02:04:04.079 people get read to Catch twenty two, which I think 1757 02:04:04.159 --> 02:04:06.800 is an overrated book, but it's like way nastier than that. 1758 02:04:06.800 --> 02:04:09.439 It reminds me of the short Timers. It's like really 1759 02:04:09.479 --> 02:04:14.359 really nasty, but but not in a way that's unduly tunaive. 1760 02:04:14.439 --> 02:04:16.840 I think it actually reflects the eraror. I mean it 1761 02:04:16.920 --> 02:04:19.920 was before my time. You know, my civic memory begins 1762 02:04:19.960 --> 02:04:22.199 in the very early eighties. I don't remember the seventies. 1763 02:04:22.239 --> 02:04:27.880 I was born in the seventies. But in between that 1764 02:04:27.960 --> 02:04:30.920 kind of trilogy of fiction books, like later we started 1765 02:04:30.920 --> 02:04:34.199 writing kind of like hard boiled detective stuff. But in 1766 02:04:34.239 --> 02:04:36.640 between Nat he wrote this seminal. It's probably the it's 1767 02:04:36.640 --> 02:04:39.600 probably the seminal true crime book after in Cold Blood. 1768 02:04:39.640 --> 02:04:43.520 It was It's the Onion Field, which was a horrible case, 1769 02:04:44.520 --> 02:04:47.960 and uh Wamba was a was a police when this 1770 02:04:48.199 --> 02:04:54.880 incident happened. And uh, I'll get into the details of 1771 02:04:54.920 --> 02:04:59.720 it in a minute, but it these two police offers 1772 02:05:00.039 --> 02:05:02.600 ofs and was were abducted and murdered or one of 1773 02:05:02.640 --> 02:05:05.119 them was murdered, the other one got away. The guy 1774 02:05:05.199 --> 02:05:08.359 got away. It's almost like he endured a fate worse 1775 02:05:08.399 --> 02:05:13.920 than had he been murdered, you know. But that and 1776 02:05:14.039 --> 02:05:16.359 the film version. They made a TV movie out of it, 1777 02:05:16.399 --> 02:05:18.159 which one of which one of was one of James 1778 02:05:18.159 --> 02:05:22.399 Woods's first roles. And James Woods, the guy he plays 1779 02:05:23.520 --> 02:05:26.720 the cop killer was this guy named Gregory Ulis Powell. 1780 02:05:27.640 --> 02:05:29.960 Like if that's not like an old school comic name, 1781 02:05:30.000 --> 02:05:32.800 I don't know what it is. But Woods, they looked 1782 02:05:32.800 --> 02:05:37.880 exactly like to do. It was like uncanny, and you 1783 02:05:37.960 --> 02:05:45.920 know it. Uh, Parker was a LAPD chief when this 1784 02:05:45.960 --> 02:05:48.840 went down. And Parker, for all of his kind of 1785 02:05:51.079 --> 02:05:52.920 for all the good things we can say about him, 1786 02:05:52.920 --> 02:05:56.439 he really really mismanaged the aftermath of this situation. And 1787 02:05:56.479 --> 02:06:02.800 then it's interesting how, you know, despite the I'm the 1788 02:06:02.840 --> 02:06:07.359 first one to suggest that it's ridiculous, and people talk 1789 02:06:07.439 --> 02:06:11.640 about how, oh, in the pre Kennedy assassination era that 1790 02:06:11.680 --> 02:06:14.199 we lived in simple times or something like America was 1791 02:06:14.239 --> 02:06:18.880 totally fucking flure. There were no simple times, especially when 1792 02:06:18.880 --> 02:06:21.079 you're talking about America, which is like literally born out 1793 02:06:21.079 --> 02:06:25.199 of like race war, Like that's ridiculous. However, there was 1794 02:06:25.239 --> 02:06:28.960 a weird randomness to violence and particularly homicide that very 1795 02:06:29.039 --> 02:06:35.119 suddenly jumped off and endured in absolute earnest for about 1796 02:06:35.159 --> 02:06:39.119 thirty five years, and then very very suddenly stopped. I 1797 02:06:39.199 --> 02:06:41.159 kind of think of like the last incident of that 1798 02:06:41.239 --> 02:06:46.560 cycle in terms of perception and media narrative as Columbine okay, 1799 02:06:47.560 --> 02:06:50.159 and like it just like dropped off suddenly, like nobody 1800 02:06:50.199 --> 02:06:53.239 can explain it, you know, like the freakonomics types that 1801 02:06:53.279 --> 02:06:55.680 book's kind of fallen off would thankfully because it it's 1802 02:06:55.720 --> 02:07:00.399 an idiotic book. But the refrain of the kinds of 1803 02:07:00.479 --> 02:07:03.760 lefty progressives was, oh well, Roe v. Wade meant that, 1804 02:07:04.079 --> 02:07:07.479 you know, unwanted children weren't born, so all these kinds 1805 02:07:07.520 --> 02:07:11.960 of social pathologies that that would have afflicted this this 1806 02:07:12.079 --> 02:07:16.159 population that didn't exist. You know, we're absent. So you 1807 02:07:16.199 --> 02:07:19.359 know that that's why. That doesn't explain why, and it's 1808 02:07:19.399 --> 02:07:24.840 not you know, there there were many population booms to 1809 02:07:24.920 --> 02:07:28.760 immigration and only to other things, particularly glocalized. And this 1810 02:07:28.840 --> 02:07:31.640 hasn't like duplicated, like it doesn't make any sense. It's 1811 02:07:31.800 --> 02:07:34.319 it's I mean, I have my own thoughts on why 1812 02:07:34.399 --> 02:07:37.800 these kinds of things happened that, but that's probably you know, 1813 02:07:37.840 --> 02:07:42.079 mostly probably dismissed it as overly metaphysical because it may 1814 02:07:42.239 --> 02:07:45.600 like the Onion Field case, it very much like like 1815 02:07:45.680 --> 02:07:48.279 even more so than the Kidy Genevi's incident, which is 1816 02:07:49.239 --> 02:07:51.479 which has kind of been like mythologized and there's a 1817 02:07:51.479 --> 02:07:53.920 lot of cap around what actually happened there. You know, 1818 02:07:53.920 --> 02:07:56.399 that was that poor woman who was assaulted and like 1819 02:07:56.520 --> 02:07:58.880 stabbed to death in front of our neighbors, and nobody 1820 02:07:58.880 --> 02:08:02.600 did anything and nobody called it in. I mean, granted 1821 02:08:02.640 --> 02:08:05.079 that was particularly awful because she was truly like a 1822 02:08:05.119 --> 02:08:09.479 defenseless female, But the Onion Field situations ned more brazen 1823 02:08:09.560 --> 02:08:12.640 because like these guys they just like murdered a cop 1824 02:08:13.079 --> 02:08:15.399 and like the sub Keebles didn't do like that. I mean, yeah, 1825 02:08:15.439 --> 02:08:18.039 there's the public enemy's era, Like some decades before guys 1826 02:08:18.079 --> 02:08:20.079 would like shoot it out with the police, but it's 1827 02:08:20.119 --> 02:08:22.520 like straight up in cold blood like murdering a cop, 1828 02:08:22.640 --> 02:08:24.439 like shooting him in the face when you didn't have 1829 02:08:24.520 --> 02:08:27.560 to like that. 1830 02:08:26.680 --> 02:08:30.319 That really, like, you know, I grew up with a 1831 02:08:30.399 --> 02:08:33.880 lot a lot of guys who went NYPD, and when 1832 02:08:33.920 --> 02:08:37.319 you talk to them about people who kill cops, they say, 1833 02:08:37.359 --> 02:08:40.199 the reason they take it more seriously is because if 1834 02:08:40.199 --> 02:08:42.399 they're willing to kill a cop, they're willing to kill anyone. 1835 02:08:43.319 --> 02:08:48.399 And Powell was a really creepy guy, like he his rep. 1836 02:08:48.520 --> 02:08:50.880 He was just like really real sad sack, kind of 1837 02:08:51.000 --> 02:08:54.039 loser hood guy who went by Jimmy Youngblood. He had 1838 02:08:54.039 --> 02:08:56.640 like forty names. I think it's his burname with Jimmy 1839 02:08:56.720 --> 02:09:01.000 Lee Smith, but he went by Jimmy Youngblood. Jimmy Youngblood. 1840 02:09:01.079 --> 02:09:04.760 He was a heroin addict and he'd been spending basically 1841 02:09:04.800 --> 02:09:07.159 his entire old life in prison, but it was for bullshit, 1842 02:09:07.239 --> 02:09:09.840 you know, like stealing radios and like breaking into cars 1843 02:09:10.560 --> 02:09:14.680 and like robbing. People said he could get dope, you know, 1844 02:09:14.720 --> 02:09:16.720 and Powell really kind of like roped them into this 1845 02:09:16.800 --> 02:09:20.399 like psycho stuff, you know. And that's not just a 1846 02:09:21.279 --> 02:09:24.479 that's not just the cop out at trial. Those dynamic 1847 02:09:24.560 --> 02:09:26.960 there really are dynamics like that. There's another thing as 1848 02:09:26.960 --> 02:09:29.760 like a partnership of equals between rappies who do bizarre 1849 02:09:29.840 --> 02:09:36.039 violent crimes. It's always and Powell too. He he didn't 1850 02:09:36.039 --> 02:09:38.840 have a traditional criminal background, Like he was raised in 1851 02:09:38.920 --> 02:09:44.000 some crummy suburb of Detroit. His father was a musician, 1852 02:09:44.239 --> 02:09:49.319 this itinerant musician, and they never had any money. But 1853 02:09:49.359 --> 02:09:51.840 Powell ran away from the home when he was fourteen 1854 02:09:51.920 --> 02:09:55.319 or fifteen, and he took up with this kind of fake, 1855 02:09:55.680 --> 02:10:01.079 a tinerant priest who molested him, totally screwed him up. 1856 02:10:01.119 --> 02:10:04.319 So after that, Powell would like he periodically decided he 1857 02:10:04.399 --> 02:10:07.359 was gay, even though like by the time he was arrested, 1858 02:10:07.399 --> 02:10:09.359 he had like a wife who was pregnant with his kid. 1859 02:10:09.760 --> 02:10:11.800 But then Powell goes to prison. First it was a 1860 02:10:11.920 --> 02:10:15.399 death row, and then he got manumitted, you know when 1861 02:10:15.880 --> 02:10:21.079 when the Supreme Court struck down the death penalty, you know, 1862 02:10:21.119 --> 02:10:26.479 and he got in in typo California fashion. There was 1863 02:10:26.520 --> 02:10:29.239 a couple of retrials, but he ended up serving a 1864 02:10:29.279 --> 02:10:33.199 life without parole. Okay, he had a couple of parole 1865 02:10:33.239 --> 02:10:35.359 hearings decades on, but I mean there was no chance 1866 02:10:35.399 --> 02:10:39.000 he was gonna get a conditional release. But when he 1867 02:10:39.039 --> 02:10:41.359 was behind the wall, he decided he was like full 1868 02:10:41.399 --> 02:10:43.760 on gay, and he started like writing for like gay 1869 02:10:43.840 --> 02:10:46.760 rights publications and stuff. It was like an early example 1870 02:10:46.800 --> 02:10:50.600 of like the gay movement having horrible optics because in 1871 02:10:50.960 --> 02:10:53.800 one of their rags that I guess was pretty widely 1872 02:10:53.800 --> 02:10:55.960 circulated in the West Coast in the seventies and eighties, 1873 02:10:56.000 --> 02:10:58.119 it's like, why do you have this like cop killer 1874 02:10:58.239 --> 02:11:01.279 like drawing little cartoons and writing for you so then 1875 02:11:02.199 --> 02:11:05.359 you know something like pulled that stuff. But you know, 1876 02:11:05.479 --> 02:11:11.119 just like a bizarre guy. And he when he when 1877 02:11:11.159 --> 02:11:16.600 he committed this murder, like apparently as a young guy, 1878 02:11:17.119 --> 02:11:19.800 like he did a bunch of he did a bunch 1879 02:11:19.840 --> 02:11:23.600 of felony stints for armed robbery because his thing was 1880 02:11:23.600 --> 02:11:26.359 like robbing liquor stores and grocery stores. Like he didn't 1881 02:11:26.359 --> 02:11:28.279 have a dope have or anything. He was like doing 1882 02:11:28.319 --> 02:11:32.960 this stuff. And he'd apparently had brain surgery that's it's 1883 02:11:33.000 --> 02:11:36.760 now believed was botched, and like he it basically like 1884 02:11:36.920 --> 02:11:41.319 fried his his impulse control. And I think today with 1885 02:11:42.039 --> 02:11:45.880 you know, modern imaging equipment and stuff, it would probably 1886 02:11:45.920 --> 02:11:48.720 be clear that this guy's brain was a wreck, like 1887 02:11:48.720 --> 02:11:52.960 his physical brain, because his criminal career doesn't make any sense. 1888 02:11:53.000 --> 02:11:56.439 And also just like the sexual stuff, like doesn't really 1889 02:11:56.520 --> 02:12:04.840 track and but he he Uh, Jimmy young Blood was 1890 02:12:04.880 --> 02:12:09.640 on was on parole and he was in this program 1891 02:12:10.760 --> 02:12:14.439 before method on was widely prescribed and before stuff like 1892 02:12:14.920 --> 02:12:19.199 sub attacks. There's this really strange compound that that apparently 1893 02:12:21.000 --> 02:12:25.359 had really deleterious effects on internal organ and things that 1894 02:12:25.399 --> 02:12:27.600 they were trying to give to heroin addicts because it 1895 02:12:27.640 --> 02:12:29.439 was kind of like the shot the alcoholics, but it 1896 02:12:29.479 --> 02:12:34.840 didn't really work. But young Blood was conditionally paroled and 1897 02:12:34.880 --> 02:12:36.560 he was he was able to go to this medical 1898 02:12:36.600 --> 02:12:38.720 center for parole league or they shoot him up with 1899 02:12:38.760 --> 02:12:43.439 this with this compound and that supposedly would would hear 1900 02:12:43.520 --> 02:12:47.039 him of his of his habit. And he ran across 1901 02:12:47.119 --> 02:12:50.479 Powell because Powell, along other bizarre things like Powell was 1902 02:12:50.520 --> 02:12:54.039 married to a white woman and his whole family was white, 1903 02:12:54.079 --> 02:12:58.640 but Powell basically exclusively hung around black folks, which is weird. 1904 02:12:59.119 --> 02:13:01.119 I mean, it's weird today, it was really weird in 1905 02:13:01.199 --> 02:13:04.720 nineteen sixty. But that's how young Blood ran into him. 1906 02:13:05.359 --> 02:13:07.920 And uh, he was pulling a heist with this degenerate 1907 02:13:07.920 --> 02:13:11.479 alcohol like like a hobo who was a part time 1908 02:13:11.800 --> 02:13:17.000 like shoe shine man and Powell somehow I mean presuma. 1909 02:13:17.039 --> 02:13:19.359 It was not really clear, but presumably it was because 1910 02:13:20.680 --> 02:13:23.359 young Blood needed money for dope that he got. He 1911 02:13:23.439 --> 02:13:27.359 got sucked into this nonsense of like pulling these like 1912 02:13:27.439 --> 02:13:30.319 Hindsted heights, like liquor stores and stuff or what amounts 1913 02:13:30.359 --> 02:13:37.920 to chump change. So their pads crossed with these cops 1914 02:13:40.840 --> 02:13:48.159 because one night, uh paula Youngblood, we cruising uh Los Angeles, 1915 02:13:48.399 --> 02:13:53.359 like presumably they were casing, you know, a place to rob, 1916 02:13:54.159 --> 02:13:55.800 you know, and they had this They had this ancient 1917 02:13:56.000 --> 02:13:59.479 nineteen forty six Ford coop, you know, like an old 1918 02:13:59.520 --> 02:14:01.840 gangster movies, you know, like it's it's got that like 1919 02:14:02.039 --> 02:14:06.359 sloped trunk and stuff, you know, if you know what 1920 02:14:06.399 --> 02:14:12.479 old Fords look like. And these two police, uh Ian 1921 02:14:12.600 --> 02:14:16.600 Campbell and Carl Hedinger. Campbell was the guy woended up 1922 02:14:16.640 --> 02:14:22.000 getting blasted and murdered, and you know, both young guys. Campbell, 1923 02:14:22.000 --> 02:14:24.800 if I memory series, was a Korean war vet, and 1924 02:14:24.840 --> 02:14:29.279 he was the older man. He was a Scottish type 1925 02:14:29.319 --> 02:14:32.039 guy like he played he literally played bagpipes, you know, 1926 02:14:34.760 --> 02:14:37.239 like a real heroic guy, you know, and and heading 1927 02:14:37.279 --> 02:14:40.239 Gerr obviously looked up to him. But they were they 1928 02:14:40.239 --> 02:14:45.359 were assigned to this March ninth, sixty three. They were 1929 02:14:45.359 --> 02:14:48.920 assigned to his duty and you know, in playing clothes 1930 02:14:49.880 --> 02:14:53.279 like you know, basically aggressive policing of the old type, 1931 02:14:53.359 --> 02:14:56.239 you know, and before surveillance tech, like you basically just 1932 02:14:56.279 --> 02:15:03.439 like look out for you know, possible possible subjects like 1933 02:15:03.479 --> 02:15:06.199 you know, like in like on the make or whatever. 1934 02:15:07.000 --> 02:15:09.439 You know. So they pulled over young Blood and Powell, 1935 02:15:10.119 --> 02:15:14.039 and Powell just suddenly like drew down on him. You 1936 02:15:14.079 --> 02:15:18.199 got the jump on him on Campbell and this is 1937 02:15:18.399 --> 02:15:24.800 key head Injurer. Uh had drawn his service revolver and 1938 02:15:27.159 --> 02:15:30.560 he refused to give it up until Campbell said he's 1939 02:15:30.600 --> 02:15:33.000 got a gun on me, meaning Powell, you know, give 1940 02:15:33.079 --> 02:15:39.119 up your weapon. And l EPD doctrine at that time 1941 02:15:39.279 --> 02:15:42.560 was that if somebody gets to drop on you, give 1942 02:15:42.640 --> 02:15:45.319 up your weapon, because nobody's going to kill a cop 1943 02:15:45.359 --> 02:15:47.720 for no reason, you know, like that was the thinking. 1944 02:15:51.279 --> 02:15:55.920 So then uh, Powell, he gets in the front seat, 1945 02:15:56.359 --> 02:16:00.039 he orders Campbell to drive his car. Young Blood he 1946 02:16:00.039 --> 02:16:02.279 gets in the back with Headinger, and I think young 1947 02:16:02.279 --> 02:16:06.039 Blood had a sowd off shotgun, you know. So then 1948 02:16:06.079 --> 02:16:09.960 Powell was just like drive, you know, and Campbell's like 1949 02:16:10.199 --> 02:16:13.800 where are we going? And Powell's like, just drive, you know. 1950 02:16:13.840 --> 02:16:15.880 He's like, I'm not gonna hurt you guys, but you 1951 02:16:16.000 --> 02:16:17.479 just got to drive. We got to get out of 1952 02:16:17.479 --> 02:16:20.720 the city. So he drives them all the way to 1953 02:16:20.760 --> 02:16:26.359 Baker's Field and he stops. Finally, he orders Campbell to stop, 1954 02:16:26.560 --> 02:16:32.440 literally in this onion field. And Headinger said that like, 1955 02:16:32.559 --> 02:16:34.639 even before they stop, he's like it was pitch play. 1956 02:16:34.680 --> 02:16:38.040 He couldn't see anything, but he's like the overwhelming odor 1957 02:16:38.079 --> 02:16:40.600 of onions. He's like it was making everybody's eyes tear up. 1958 02:16:40.639 --> 02:16:46.760 You think it was surreal. So they stop, Powell orders 1959 02:16:46.799 --> 02:16:54.360 everybody out, and then, according to both young Blood and Headinger, 1960 02:16:55.680 --> 02:16:58.120 Pawell look Campbell in the face and he says, are 1961 02:16:58.120 --> 02:17:02.120 you familiar with the Lindenberg Law. It's not clear what 1962 02:17:02.159 --> 02:17:05.280 he meant by that, Like, presumably he was referring to 1963 02:17:05.319 --> 02:17:09.879 the federal kidnapping statue, which kind of colopially, I guess 1964 02:17:09.920 --> 02:17:14.040 would have been the Lindenberg Law. And that was a 1965 02:17:14.040 --> 02:17:17.680 big deal because after Lindberg Baby, that's another horrible case. 1966 02:17:18.120 --> 02:17:22.399 After the after Lindberg's son, infant son was killed by 1967 02:17:22.760 --> 02:17:28.000 ransom kidnappers, you know, a federal statute was passed that 1968 02:17:28.479 --> 02:17:31.319 you know, imposed there was no there was no open 1969 02:17:31.399 --> 02:17:35.760 ended federal death penalty, but kidnapping for ransdom became a 1970 02:17:35.799 --> 02:17:39.280 death penalty offense after that. So presumably in like the 1971 02:17:39.360 --> 02:17:45.559 warped and like mangled mind of Powell, his notion was, 1972 02:17:45.639 --> 02:17:48.000 I don't want to waste you, but I have to 1973 02:17:48.159 --> 02:17:51.840 now because I kidnapped you, which makes zero sense. Then 1974 02:17:51.840 --> 02:17:55.079 he doesn't blast him in the face. He like, I 1975 02:17:55.280 --> 02:17:58.000 think he had like a twenty five automatic. He just 1976 02:17:58.040 --> 02:18:00.520 like emptied the magazine into him. 1977 02:18:01.280 --> 02:18:01.680 And. 1978 02:18:05.159 --> 02:18:08.399 Headinger related he heard somebody screaming, and He's like, at 1979 02:18:08.399 --> 02:18:10.360 first out it was Campbell. Then I realized it was 1980 02:18:10.399 --> 02:18:14.319 young Blood. Like young Blood just like freaked out and 1981 02:18:15.280 --> 02:18:17.959 presumab would save it head Inur's life because young Blood 1982 02:18:18.040 --> 02:18:21.719 was like panic panicking, and he didn't blast him. So 1983 02:18:21.799 --> 02:18:26.719 Hedinger ran for literally four miles and there was some kid, 1984 02:18:28.239 --> 02:18:33.799 some uh, some black kid who was getting an early start, 1985 02:18:33.879 --> 02:18:36.159 like some farm hand, you know, like three in the morning, 1986 02:18:36.840 --> 02:18:38.959 you know, had and told him what happened, and then 1987 02:18:40.159 --> 02:18:43.680 you know, he he called for help and everything. But 1988 02:18:45.680 --> 02:18:50.479 the way that dealt with Headinger, Parker forced him to 1989 02:18:50.600 --> 02:18:55.079 address like police academy classes. He forced into a dress 1990 02:18:55.200 --> 02:19:01.159 like squad rooms full of street officers, like basically reliving 1991 02:19:01.200 --> 02:19:04.319 what had happened to him and then having the watch 1992 02:19:04.319 --> 02:19:06.440 commander say, see, this is why you never give up 1993 02:19:06.479 --> 02:19:09.360 your weapon. You'll end up like him, I mean, like 1994 02:19:09.440 --> 02:19:13.719 basically torturing the guy, you know, under auspices. I mean, 1995 02:19:13.760 --> 02:19:15.399 I think Parker was that of too, so I think 1996 02:19:15.440 --> 02:19:18.280 he didn't realize what was wrong with this, and then 1997 02:19:18.280 --> 02:19:20.920 he put him on coaching duty as his personal driver 1998 02:19:22.639 --> 02:19:26.799 and headingers prodective. We started losing his mind, you know, 1999 02:19:26.840 --> 02:19:28.479 and he didn't know what it handlecks. On the one hand, 2000 02:19:28.520 --> 02:19:31.159 everybody like pitied him. On the other hand, they treated 2001 02:19:31.200 --> 02:19:33.040 him with this kind of like haughty contempt, like he 2002 02:19:33.120 --> 02:19:37.600 was some kind of pussy or something, and he gave 2003 02:19:37.680 --> 02:19:41.079 him a very sad end. He ended up getting dismissed 2004 02:19:41.120 --> 02:19:46.319 from the police department because he was he was doing 2005 02:19:46.360 --> 02:19:49.799 bizarre things, including like shoplifting worthless items, and it was 2006 02:19:49.879 --> 02:19:54.239 obvious that and he said, like the guy like blew 2007 02:19:54.239 --> 02:19:57.280 a gasket, I mean obviously not to be flippant or 2008 02:19:57.399 --> 02:20:01.159 mean about it. You know. He ended up up ended 2009 02:20:01.200 --> 02:20:03.719 up working as a gardener and then like drinking himself 2010 02:20:03.719 --> 02:20:06.440 to death in middle age. Like in the nineties. You know, 2011 02:20:07.200 --> 02:20:11.920 this is like a horrible situation, but that one of 2012 02:20:12.000 --> 02:20:15.319 the one of the this maybe huge impact on the 2013 02:20:15.360 --> 02:20:19.280 public consciouness, but particularly police and the cultural policing. It 2014 02:20:19.360 --> 02:20:23.319 was already going in kind of a strange direction anyway, okay, 2015 02:20:23.360 --> 02:20:27.520 And that that's really what that's really kind of what 2016 02:20:27.680 --> 02:20:33.239 put over the idea of like paramilitarized policing, you know, 2017 02:20:33.239 --> 02:20:35.760 and that stuff like the Watts riots like solidified it. 2018 02:20:36.559 --> 02:20:40.840 You know, like for context. During Watts there there was 2019 02:20:40.840 --> 02:20:44.639 like snipers taking up positions to like blast cops. You know. 2020 02:20:44.680 --> 02:20:50.479 It was like urban combat, you know. And Wallah makes 2021 02:20:50.479 --> 02:20:53.280 a big deal in the Choir Boys. By the nineteen seventies, 2022 02:20:56.200 --> 02:21:00.680 a lot of police departments, including a p D, had 2023 02:21:00.719 --> 02:21:04.280 adopted the commander rank. And he thought that this was 2024 02:21:04.319 --> 02:21:09.000 really bad, you know. And it's the subjects of the 2025 02:21:09.079 --> 02:21:11.920 Choir Boys. It opens up in Vietnam and two of 2026 02:21:11.959 --> 02:21:14.280 the two of the cops, two of the choir Boys, 2027 02:21:15.600 --> 02:21:20.040 they're they have this terrifying experience for their hiding from 2028 02:21:20.040 --> 02:21:23.799 the North Vietnamese Army in a cave like outside of Kusan. 2029 02:21:25.479 --> 02:21:25.639 You know. 2030 02:21:25.719 --> 02:21:28.239 The one man is a panic attack and and then 2031 02:21:28.360 --> 02:21:31.840 years later, you know, like five years later, when he's 2032 02:21:31.840 --> 02:21:39.159 on duty with UH with L A p D. You know, 2033 02:21:39.159 --> 02:21:42.120 he has a flashback and he and and there's a 2034 02:21:42.159 --> 02:21:45.319 horrible outcome because he ends up blasting this this unarmed 2035 02:21:45.319 --> 02:21:50.360 civilian and ruining his life. But uh, all the choir 2036 02:21:50.440 --> 02:21:53.239 boys who are the subject of the book, they're all 2037 02:21:53.360 --> 02:21:56.719 these kind of like these kind of like prestige characters 2038 02:21:56.719 --> 02:21:59.319 of different archetypes that were on l A p D 2039 02:21:59.440 --> 02:22:01.920 at the time. But all of them except got of 2040 02:22:01.959 --> 02:22:05.079 the old head he's around fifty, who's still a beat 2041 02:22:05.120 --> 02:22:10.680 cop just because that's where he's comfortable. They're all Vietnam vets, 2042 02:22:10.719 --> 02:22:15.040 and they're all unhinged. They've all got like a head 2043 02:22:15.079 --> 02:22:20.000 full of war and they are of LAPD. They act 2044 02:22:20.000 --> 02:22:22.520 that we sought out guys who had experienced and non 2045 02:22:23.399 --> 02:22:27.600 that wasn't accidental. Some of that went on here too. 2046 02:22:28.559 --> 02:22:30.959 I'm not even saying that was misguided on his own terrors, 2047 02:22:31.040 --> 02:22:35.239 but the way I questioned some of the motives for that, 2048 02:22:36.079 --> 02:22:40.479 Like John Burge, you know, who was a fucking menace 2049 02:22:40.760 --> 02:22:45.680 like here. You know, Berg tortured a bunch of confessions 2050 02:22:45.719 --> 02:22:47.840 out of people like and a lot of these guys 2051 02:22:47.879 --> 02:22:52.399 like hadn't done anything. But Burge. Burge was an MP 2052 02:22:52.600 --> 02:22:55.000 and NOM, but he was involved in all kinds of 2053 02:22:55.040 --> 02:22:58.760 strange stuff and he had a bronze star with the 2054 02:22:58.799 --> 02:23:03.200 valor device. He'd been in the action. But he also 2055 02:23:04.360 --> 02:23:07.440 a lot of his duty involved enhanced interrogation of Viet 2056 02:23:07.479 --> 02:23:10.639 Cong suspects. You know. So this man had a skill 2057 02:23:10.719 --> 02:23:13.920 set that for the nineteen seventies police department, it was 2058 02:23:14.000 --> 02:23:17.000 very much in demand. You know. And while I've always 2059 02:23:17.000 --> 02:23:22.079 makes the point in the Choir Boys especially, but in 2060 02:23:22.120 --> 02:23:25.120 a lot of his other stuff, you know, he's like 2061 02:23:25.399 --> 02:23:30.399 a police department's basically a political administration. He's like, you 2062 02:23:30.600 --> 02:23:34.319 have it. It has to be visible because the voters want. 2063 02:23:34.959 --> 02:23:37.079 The voters want to be able to call somebody if 2064 02:23:37.120 --> 02:23:39.399 not to be crassed, like their kids walking to school 2065 02:23:39.399 --> 02:23:41.200 and he runs about some guy jaking off in the 2066 02:23:41.239 --> 02:23:44.520 bushes or something. Okay, they want to believe it's some 2067 02:23:44.600 --> 02:23:49.559 kind of like formal recourse for that. But like the 2068 02:23:49.639 --> 02:23:53.719 police can't solve sociological problems, like the police can't solve 2069 02:23:53.799 --> 02:23:56.360 like a race war. The police can't make people like 2070 02:23:56.680 --> 02:24:00.360 not use drugs, like this isn't something, this isn't like 2071 02:24:00.520 --> 02:24:03.280 these aren't criminal matters. I mean, they can become that way. 2072 02:24:04.239 --> 02:24:07.680 But it's like Wahabbah's all points. So in the choir boys, basically, 2073 02:24:07.760 --> 02:24:11.520 these guys have an impossible job and some of them 2074 02:24:11.520 --> 02:24:13.360 are just like goons who want their name to ring 2075 02:24:13.399 --> 02:24:15.959 out and they just like to fuck people up. Like 2076 02:24:16.040 --> 02:24:19.920 some of them are like like nineteen sixties idealist boomer 2077 02:24:19.959 --> 02:24:22.280 types who think that like, oh, well, you know, if 2078 02:24:22.319 --> 02:24:24.159 you can if you can bring some kind of diplomacy 2079 02:24:24.200 --> 02:24:30.319 and understanding, you know, the officer civilian interaction, and then 2080 02:24:30.319 --> 02:24:33.200 we can have like a more peaceable community. But it's 2081 02:24:33.200 --> 02:24:35.920 like that's not the police's job either, you know. So 2082 02:24:37.399 --> 02:24:40.440 the recurring motif and wlahah blah stuff is like cops 2083 02:24:40.520 --> 02:24:43.879 and commit suicide because they just become like they just 2084 02:24:43.879 --> 02:24:47.239 like crash the fuck out, and especially them, that's the 2085 02:24:47.319 --> 02:24:50.799 very real thing, you know, and it's some walla blah 2086 02:24:50.840 --> 02:24:55.280 makes the point. You know, in the sixties or seventies 2087 02:24:56.200 --> 02:24:59.200 when all this crazy stuff was happening, even if you 2088 02:24:59.319 --> 02:25:01.879 survived twenty years as like a beat cop, like you 2089 02:25:01.879 --> 02:25:04.920 don't get shot, you don't get like maimed, you know, 2090 02:25:04.959 --> 02:25:06.879 you get like your full pension. He's like, oh, be fine. 2091 02:25:07.079 --> 02:25:09.719 Now I'm like retired, but I'm like forty one years old, 2092 02:25:10.159 --> 02:25:11.600 Like what I'm gonna do is with my life, And 2093 02:25:11.639 --> 02:25:13.639 a lot of these guys were divorced by then. They 2094 02:25:13.639 --> 02:25:16.440 got a drinking problem. It's like something like sit around 2095 02:25:16.479 --> 02:25:18.319 my house and like drink a lot, Like how many 2096 02:25:18.319 --> 02:25:22.879 fishing trips can you possibly take? Like it's not it's not. 2097 02:25:23.799 --> 02:25:25.959 Being like a big city cop is not a good 2098 02:25:26.120 --> 02:25:28.120 way to go through life, you know, and like I'm not, 2099 02:25:29.159 --> 02:25:31.959 I'm not I'm like trashing guys whose life shook out 2100 02:25:32.000 --> 02:25:34.719 that way. Like there's a lot of polices who like 2101 02:25:34.840 --> 02:25:39.959 follow my content and stuff and that's great, but you know, 2102 02:25:40.000 --> 02:25:45.399 while I'm like he basically, uh, there's always a stock 2103 02:25:45.520 --> 02:25:48.559 character in his novels or something like older guy who 2104 02:25:48.600 --> 02:25:50.879 like helps rookies understand I used to survive like in 2105 02:25:50.879 --> 02:25:53.239 the deep hood and how you can like make it 2106 02:25:53.280 --> 02:25:57.280 to twenty years. But then these guys like well, like 2107 02:25:57.440 --> 02:25:59.559 you know, three months after they retire, everybody gets a 2108 02:25:59.559 --> 02:26:02.600 word like blew their fucking brains out. And while boy 2109 02:26:02.639 --> 02:26:05.959 he kind of would hint around it because he, you know, 2110 02:26:06.079 --> 02:26:11.079 was like a reserved guy, but you know, he said, 2111 02:26:11.079 --> 02:26:13.719 there's a reason why like I left the police force 2112 02:26:13.799 --> 02:26:16.479 immediately when I started making money from writings. He's like, 2113 02:26:16.600 --> 02:26:18.239 I was gonna end up like one of those guys, 2114 02:26:19.319 --> 02:26:24.000 you know, And that's that's pretty that's pretty that's pretty 2115 02:26:24.040 --> 02:26:30.639 bleak man. But uh, the what significant too is is 2116 02:26:30.840 --> 02:26:37.719 what like a microcosm it is of of then versus now, 2117 02:26:38.360 --> 02:26:39.840 you know, And that's one of one of the reasons 2118 02:26:39.879 --> 02:26:45.559 for I mean, obviously the these these these horrible people 2119 02:26:45.799 --> 02:26:52.639 in government and and these in geo radicals and and 2120 02:26:52.760 --> 02:26:56.280 others he shall not be named, you know that they 2121 02:26:56.360 --> 02:26:59.760 obviously sees on stuff like like like the George Floyd situation, 2122 02:27:00.280 --> 02:27:04.360 you know, as a kind of detonation strategy. But the 2123 02:27:04.399 --> 02:27:07.840 reason why they're able to do that is because policing 2124 02:27:07.879 --> 02:27:14.159 as it's been conceptualized really from the mid twentieth century onward, 2125 02:27:14.319 --> 02:27:17.920 like that's that's that's dead, like that's obsolescent, you know, 2126 02:27:18.040 --> 02:27:21.920 like it doesn't you know, if we've said what Alma 2127 02:27:22.079 --> 02:27:24.719 said about it being basically a political function and a 2128 02:27:24.799 --> 02:27:28.360 kind of like sociological theater, like people don't respond to 2129 02:27:28.399 --> 02:27:31.079 it that way anymore. And also like do you like 2130 02:27:31.239 --> 02:27:34.159 what do your body camps changes everything because like what 2131 02:27:34.319 --> 02:27:38.120 cops do is such that like I'm not I'm not 2132 02:27:38.159 --> 02:27:41.760 talking about like Navary type police, but like Chicago PD, 2133 02:27:41.840 --> 02:27:45.079 you're like l EPD, You're like NYPD. Like the kind 2134 02:27:45.079 --> 02:27:49.399 of stuff these guys do, you know, Like basically, uh, 2135 02:27:50.000 --> 02:27:55.319 it basically evolves like breaking down like street dudes who 2136 02:27:55.319 --> 02:27:58.959 otherwise would be cavalier in the way that they apply violence. 2137 02:27:59.040 --> 02:28:03.319 And you can't have it it because you know, as 2138 02:28:03.360 --> 02:28:08.639 a sovereign government, local or otherwise can't allow that and 2139 02:28:08.680 --> 02:28:14.200 still retain credibility. But also there's got to be an 2140 02:28:14.280 --> 02:28:20.159 understanding that if you transgress certain parameters, like you're gonna 2141 02:28:20.159 --> 02:28:23.879 get broken down and you can't. That doesn't work in 2142 02:28:24.760 --> 02:28:28.280 the air of the Panopticon. But it's also people just 2143 02:28:28.360 --> 02:28:33.280 kind of move differently, like the whole One of the 2144 02:28:33.360 --> 02:28:36.719 one of the recurring motifs, especially in the Choir Boys, 2145 02:28:36.840 --> 02:28:38.959 is like when these cops answer calls, like in the 2146 02:28:39.079 --> 02:28:43.799 deep Hood, it's like you're all by yourself. And even 2147 02:28:43.959 --> 02:28:47.000 and until the eighties, squad cars were called cold radio 2148 02:28:47.120 --> 02:28:49.680 cars because cops didn't even have a radio on their person. 2149 02:28:50.360 --> 02:28:53.360 So basically, like you go through a door if you're 2150 02:28:53.399 --> 02:28:57.440 partnered with somebody, and police armers deployed how they deployed 2151 02:28:57.520 --> 02:29:00.799 like varied by region and by department. But at best 2152 02:29:00.799 --> 02:29:02.920 you're gonna have like one guy with you and the 2153 02:29:02.959 --> 02:29:05.559 most firepower you're gonna have as a twelve gage, which 2154 02:29:05.600 --> 02:29:09.600 is a great weapon, don't get me wrong, But that 2155 02:29:09.639 --> 02:29:13.399 doesn't if you're if there's RNA men five D. But 2156 02:29:13.440 --> 02:29:18.520 like that, that doesn't do anything, you know. So while 2157 02:29:18.559 --> 02:29:21.120 I'm talking about how scary it was to like have 2158 02:29:21.239 --> 02:29:25.159 to like breach doors by yourself, you know, but now 2159 02:29:25.520 --> 02:29:27.680 I mean not only the cops have body cams and 2160 02:29:27.799 --> 02:29:30.040 most police farmers it's like literally like a live feed 2161 02:29:30.200 --> 02:29:33.440 like back to where they're deployed from. You know, they're 2162 02:29:33.440 --> 02:29:36.719 in constant content with a radio on their person, like 2163 02:29:36.760 --> 02:29:40.760 deployment patterns of such of a total situational awareness. But 2164 02:29:40.799 --> 02:29:44.079 also like things are just like different, like you wouldn't 2165 02:29:44.399 --> 02:29:47.360 there's not the same potential for lawlessness. It's like when 2166 02:29:47.440 --> 02:29:50.360 lawlessness does jump up, it's very punctuated and it's very 2167 02:29:50.399 --> 02:29:55.639 scaled and it's very bad. But there'd never be a 2168 02:29:55.719 --> 02:30:00.639 situation like the Bronx was back in the eighties, or 2169 02:30:00.760 --> 02:30:04.479 like Wrigley Bill was in the early eighties, when it 2170 02:30:04.520 --> 02:30:08.120 was like a shithole where there's just kind of like 2171 02:30:08.159 --> 02:30:11.120 guys moving around and not like praying on random people, 2172 02:30:11.440 --> 02:30:13.479 you know, because they want money you're there or something 2173 02:30:13.520 --> 02:30:16.680 like that doesn't happen anymore, you know, not not because 2174 02:30:16.920 --> 02:30:20.040 not not because people have become less simian or something, 2175 02:30:20.120 --> 02:30:23.159 but it that's just not how you move anymore. If 2176 02:30:24.120 --> 02:30:27.799 if you're if you if you're on the make like that, 2177 02:30:28.120 --> 02:30:31.680 you know so and also too, like it like people 2178 02:30:31.719 --> 02:30:34.079 people are hip to the fact they're like always on camera, 2179 02:30:35.079 --> 02:30:36.360 you know, like if you're gonna do I mean, don't 2180 02:30:36.360 --> 02:30:38.840 get me wrong, Like horrible stuff does still happen, and 2181 02:30:38.879 --> 02:30:41.799 there's like a way you can do it where you're 2182 02:30:41.559 --> 02:30:45.399 you're out of sight of the electric eye. But it's 2183 02:30:45.479 --> 02:30:49.360 it's it's different and people's living patterns too, Like you 2184 02:30:49.360 --> 02:30:55.799 don't have you don't have situations anymore where people where 2185 02:30:55.840 --> 02:30:58.760 we've got like thousands and thousands of people are kind 2186 02:30:58.799 --> 02:31:02.319 of like trapped in some urban environment that's failing and 2187 02:31:02.360 --> 02:31:05.520 like even like the deep hood that's its own thing, 2188 02:31:05.600 --> 02:31:09.680 but it's different and it's kind of like bandit country, 2189 02:31:09.719 --> 02:31:13.760 you know. It's the people there aren't like actively engaging 2190 02:31:13.760 --> 02:31:16.000 with the police and wanting the police to kind of 2191 02:31:16.040 --> 02:31:22.879 help quash these anti social instincts that you know, periodically 2192 02:31:22.959 --> 02:31:27.239 flare up and stuff. So I maintain that like modern 2193 02:31:27.280 --> 02:31:30.479 policing is dying and you and in the traditional sense, 2194 02:31:30.840 --> 02:31:34.120 the traditionally understood sense of what the job entailed. It's 2195 02:31:34.159 --> 02:31:37.159 not like illegal for cops to move that way. So 2196 02:31:37.200 --> 02:31:41.079 I mean, this isn't you know, And I know that 2197 02:31:42.680 --> 02:31:46.280 especially a lot of older folks and I'm not transging 2198 02:31:46.319 --> 02:31:51.399 older folks. I am one. They have this idea like, well, 2199 02:31:51.760 --> 02:31:53.879 we just need to take the gloves off and quote 2200 02:31:53.879 --> 02:31:56.159 what cops do their job. Like they don't understand what 2201 02:31:56.200 --> 02:31:59.600 I'm talking about. Like even if like you told cops 2202 02:31:59.600 --> 02:32:03.079 like look you can you can crack heads and like 2203 02:32:03.520 --> 02:32:06.239 break people the fuck down, like it's nineteen eighty nine, 2204 02:32:07.159 --> 02:32:11.520 that wouldn't resolve the problem. And the public wouldn't like that, 2205 02:32:12.079 --> 02:32:14.559 I don't think, Like that wouldn't make them the wouldn't 2206 02:32:14.559 --> 02:32:17.520 make bougies feel safe. That's not what they want. They 2207 02:32:17.520 --> 02:32:19.440 don't want the police to go away. They're full of 2208 02:32:19.479 --> 02:32:22.600 shit when they claim that on Facebook or whatever. But 2209 02:32:22.639 --> 02:32:25.959 what I just describe like isn't what they want. But 2210 02:32:26.079 --> 02:32:33.319 also I get you know it, it uh I don't 2211 02:32:33.319 --> 02:32:37.600 think that, uh I, I don't. I don't think the 2212 02:32:38.399 --> 02:32:43.520 will would be there anyway because it's too open ended, 2213 02:32:45.399 --> 02:32:49.399 if that makes any sense. And uh I think too. 2214 02:32:50.760 --> 02:32:53.120 You know, this is not just for political reasons. But 2215 02:32:53.200 --> 02:32:55.159 this has been in the running for a minute. And 2216 02:32:55.520 --> 02:32:57.200 you know, guys like Tellus shit I used to write 2217 02:32:57.200 --> 02:33:00.840 about this in the nineties and he he and those 2218 02:33:00.959 --> 02:33:03.159 like him got something's wrong, but they got something's right. 2219 02:33:03.559 --> 02:33:12.079 And the privatization of armed force as well as protective services, 2220 02:33:12.879 --> 02:33:16.680 that's very much like a real thing, and that's increasingly 2221 02:33:16.719 --> 02:33:19.520 gonna become the face of policing and and and in 2222 02:33:19.520 --> 02:33:21.639 in fifty years. I don't think you're gonna have a 2223 02:33:21.680 --> 02:33:25.120 regular police department. Like, yeah, obviously, if you go you 2224 02:33:25.200 --> 02:33:28.559 go kill your neighbor, you know, somebody is going to 2225 02:33:28.600 --> 02:33:31.239 show up, somebody there was somebody who are gonna be 2226 02:33:31.280 --> 02:33:33.360 heavily armed. They're gonna like take you into custody and 2227 02:33:33.399 --> 02:33:36.799 pull you before we judge. But it's not gonna be 2228 02:33:37.879 --> 02:33:40.639 We have guys in these like blue and white cars 2229 02:33:40.760 --> 02:33:43.520 driving around like looking for people who are fucking up 2230 02:33:43.639 --> 02:33:47.000 or something like. That's done. That's not gonna happen anymore. 2231 02:33:47.840 --> 02:33:53.639 You know, and even even here where things are like 2232 02:33:53.639 --> 02:33:56.760 a lot more draconian and we're kind of like in 2233 02:33:56.840 --> 02:34:00.639 a time warp here, like police are like way way 2234 02:34:00.760 --> 02:34:05.559 less like aggressive in terms of what kind of conduct 2235 02:34:05.719 --> 02:34:10.360 though the the'll for bracelets on you for you know, 2236 02:34:12.680 --> 02:34:16.920 and it's not that that's not just uh and then 2237 02:34:16.920 --> 02:34:19.399 that's enduring even now that like you've got we've got 2238 02:34:19.399 --> 02:34:21.959 like a very like law and order president denewable office. 2239 02:34:22.360 --> 02:34:24.600 It's not it's not as the pendulum swinging back or 2240 02:34:24.639 --> 02:34:29.840 something like. It's like sociologically, the things have become such 2241 02:34:29.879 --> 02:34:35.399 that what we're describing is is no longer viable and 2242 02:34:37.920 --> 02:34:43.239 you know, I uh, it's it should it should seem 2243 02:34:43.280 --> 02:34:47.959 strange to people anyway, like whether you live in the 2244 02:34:48.000 --> 02:34:52.479 city or the country. This idea of we're gonna hire 2245 02:34:52.520 --> 02:34:55.600 a bunch of young military age meals who aren't from 2246 02:34:55.600 --> 02:34:59.040 your community, who you have no idea who these guys are. 2247 02:35:00.079 --> 02:35:02.040 They're going to be heavily armed and just kind of 2248 02:35:02.079 --> 02:35:05.120 like tell you to do things and lay the hammer 2249 02:35:05.200 --> 02:35:08.959 down on people when they decided crimes underway. That's like 2250 02:35:09.079 --> 02:35:14.879 really really really invasive, you know, And there's conditions where 2251 02:35:15.719 --> 02:35:19.079 you've got to sacrifice certain freedom of movement and liberty 2252 02:35:20.280 --> 02:35:23.079 because otherwise there can't be public order. And that's absolutely 2253 02:35:23.120 --> 02:35:25.000 the way things were in the mid twentieth century. Things 2254 02:35:25.000 --> 02:35:29.120 aren't like that anymore, you know. And one of the 2255 02:35:29.120 --> 02:35:32.280 things that underlies the fact that, like the gun control lobby, 2256 02:35:32.280 --> 02:35:35.200 you finally gave up, Like it's not just because the 2257 02:35:35.239 --> 02:35:39.079 issue became like a big loser politically, like that put 2258 02:35:39.200 --> 02:35:42.680 the mistakes, the cause or the effect, Like that issue 2259 02:35:42.719 --> 02:35:48.079 became a loser because frankly, if you don't want aggressive policing, 2260 02:35:48.280 --> 02:35:51.280 you you basically have to accept the fact that people 2261 02:35:51.360 --> 02:35:53.079 that American is going to be armed to the teeth, 2262 02:35:53.959 --> 02:35:57.440 you know. And it's really interesting, very abruptly, everybody just 2263 02:35:57.520 --> 02:36:02.639 kind of capitulated on that issue. You know, I realized 2264 02:36:02.639 --> 02:36:08.120 it's still token efforts and bullshit, you know, and meaningless 2265 02:36:09.239 --> 02:36:11.799 derivations you know, like oh, this is an assault weapons, 2266 02:36:11.879 --> 02:36:14.319 so it's bad and it's banned, even though assault weapons 2267 02:36:14.319 --> 02:36:18.319 don't exist, or there's you know, ways locally like here 2268 02:36:18.479 --> 02:36:22.520 you can sort of like bury people under paperwork to 2269 02:36:22.600 --> 02:36:26.280 deprive them of their Second Amendment rights in a defecto 2270 02:36:26.440 --> 02:36:29.799 kind of way, while still you know, complying with the 2271 02:36:29.840 --> 02:36:37.399 litter of the law. But you know, the circumstances I'm 2272 02:36:37.440 --> 02:36:43.280 always describing about deliberate communities, you know, quitting the the 2273 02:36:43.319 --> 02:36:46.479 social engineering regime, which is already happening. But in those 2274 02:36:46.520 --> 02:36:49.520 liberate communities, you're not gonna have just like random guys 2275 02:36:49.559 --> 02:36:52.239 from other places coming in to police them. People aren't 2276 02:36:52.280 --> 02:36:57.120 gonna tolerate that anymore, you know, Like it's not gonna 2277 02:36:57.159 --> 02:37:00.079 tolerate Like I'm like random white guys doing that, Like, 2278 02:37:00.120 --> 02:37:02.959 we're not gonna tolerate some like random fucking Hindu guys 2279 02:37:03.799 --> 02:37:06.559 who watched too much TV deciding they're gonna calle policas 2280 02:37:06.600 --> 02:37:12.840 Like that's over with, you know, gonna be places. 2281 02:37:11.520 --> 02:37:16.040 I think, I think people. I think people instinctively, even 2282 02:37:16.120 --> 02:37:19.280 like the big law and order boomers and everything like that, 2283 02:37:19.719 --> 02:37:24.520 know that if you send somebody into police, like if 2284 02:37:24.520 --> 02:37:27.319 you're sending you know, a bunch of suburban white guys 2285 02:37:27.360 --> 02:37:30.120 into the hood in the in the inner city, that's 2286 02:37:30.200 --> 02:37:34.079 just an invading army. And even if people can't even 2287 02:37:34.079 --> 02:37:37.520 if people can't articulate that, they instinctively know it and 2288 02:37:37.520 --> 02:37:38.639 they're reacting to it. 2289 02:37:39.600 --> 02:37:42.040 And it's a terrible idea. And I mean, no, make 2290 02:37:42.120 --> 02:37:46.120 no mistake like I'm more sympathetic to nineteen eighties LAPD 2291 02:37:46.360 --> 02:37:49.920 than a lot of people. And whether in the movie Colors, 2292 02:37:51.319 --> 02:37:54.200 that's a really great movie. It's just cool, but it's 2293 02:37:54.200 --> 02:37:58.639 also you know, like when it opens up and it's 2294 02:37:58.680 --> 02:38:03.360 Operation Hammer, where Gates is basically like like Flying Crash, 2295 02:38:03.840 --> 02:38:05.920 they're just like they're throwing the brace Thatt's on like 2296 02:38:05.959 --> 02:38:09.040 any like any military age male, like Flying Gang Colors, 2297 02:38:09.040 --> 02:38:12.559 because Gates's notion is like, let's arrest like all these motherfuckers. 2298 02:38:13.159 --> 02:38:16.719 And even if they bond out, you know, in thirty 2299 02:38:16.760 --> 02:38:18.719 six hours when they get in front of a judge 2300 02:38:18.840 --> 02:38:20.639 or even if like you know, they get cut loose 2301 02:38:20.680 --> 02:38:23.559 without even a bonding set, He's like, now we know. 2302 02:38:23.760 --> 02:38:25.959 Now we've got an idea like the forest levels of 2303 02:38:26.000 --> 02:38:28.440 these guys and what they're set is, and like what 2304 02:38:28.440 --> 02:38:31.079 what territory they claim, you know, so we can build 2305 02:38:31.120 --> 02:38:33.719 like a conceptual picture of like what op for is 2306 02:38:34.360 --> 02:38:37.399 and uh, like it really was like a war, you know, 2307 02:38:37.680 --> 02:38:41.200 and the movie gets into that, you know, like especially 2308 02:38:42.719 --> 02:38:46.360 where I think, uh, they don't other than the crypts 2309 02:38:46.360 --> 02:38:48.239 in the Blood is like they use euphemism as for 2310 02:38:48.319 --> 02:38:50.559 the other gangs, but they're but there's like the there's 2311 02:38:50.600 --> 02:38:53.120 like the mostly Spanish gang but they're supposed to be 2312 02:38:53.200 --> 02:38:57.440 eighteenth Street and like they assault the crypts and uh 2313 02:38:58.000 --> 02:39:00.719 like the one dude, the one who's gotta mac ten 2314 02:39:01.000 --> 02:39:05.079 and then Don Hiedl he's got an a k and 2315 02:39:05.120 --> 02:39:07.440 they're like throwing the throwing like frags at each other. 2316 02:39:07.600 --> 02:39:09.479 Like it's not as like I was watching this movie 2317 02:39:09.479 --> 02:39:11.280 with this chick. I was watching them with this chick. 2318 02:39:11.319 --> 02:39:13.319 I know, it was like a lot younger than me, 2319 02:39:13.840 --> 02:39:15.959 and she was like laughing. I'm like, no, you don't understand, 2320 02:39:15.959 --> 02:39:18.079 like shit was like that, and like that's not just 2321 02:39:18.239 --> 02:39:24.120 like cartoons stuff, you know. And uh so, I mean, 2322 02:39:24.159 --> 02:39:28.000 I I I don't think Gates was was a great guy, 2323 02:39:28.239 --> 02:39:33.719 but I understand what is I understand is his tad 2324 02:39:33.879 --> 02:39:37.479 orientation and it wasn't just crazy or and he wasn't 2325 02:39:37.520 --> 02:39:40.799 just being some tyrant or something. But I mean, that's 2326 02:39:40.959 --> 02:39:44.159 that's not the way things that's not the way things 2327 02:39:44.159 --> 02:39:48.959 are anymore. And you know, also, I like nine to 2328 02:39:49.000 --> 02:39:52.600 eleven change things in ways that I don't think in 2329 02:39:52.680 --> 02:39:56.600 ways they're in ways they're severe but also somewhat subtle 2330 02:39:56.639 --> 02:40:02.719 man and like I you know, basically there's certain sorts 2331 02:40:02.719 --> 02:40:06.319 of conduct that take the individuals so engaged out of 2332 02:40:06.319 --> 02:40:10.680 consideration as a criminal actor and it becomes okay to 2333 02:40:10.799 --> 02:40:13.799 blast them. And this is what this is a fact. 2334 02:40:14.799 --> 02:40:20.799 You know. So this idea that well, you know, the 2335 02:40:20.879 --> 02:40:22.959 Norman idea, like well we need the police because like 2336 02:40:23.000 --> 02:40:25.600 what about terrorism or what about like may I shooters. 2337 02:40:25.600 --> 02:40:29.920 It's like, that's not really a police problem. Like that 2338 02:40:30.040 --> 02:40:33.200 means you need people to deploy to kill them, you 2339 02:40:33.239 --> 02:40:34.879 know what I mean, that's that's that's not to say 2340 02:40:34.920 --> 02:40:36.760 you post up the army of the National Guard to 2341 02:40:36.760 --> 02:40:42.520 patrol the streets, but that means that the response to 2342 02:40:42.799 --> 02:40:46.520 those kinds of crises are not We're going to send 2343 02:40:46.520 --> 02:40:50.319 a police department to frisk and arrest people. You know, 2344 02:40:50.399 --> 02:40:57.520 it's a totally different mission orientation. And increasingly that kind 2345 02:40:57.559 --> 02:40:59.799 of thing is going to be privatized. It's like, if 2346 02:40:59.840 --> 02:41:05.879 the idea is, which the idea should be for anyone 2347 02:41:05.920 --> 02:41:09.639 who's serious about physical security of that store, is to 2348 02:41:09.719 --> 02:41:14.799 preempt violence before it happens, well, I mean you you 2349 02:41:14.959 --> 02:41:20.120 basically it's like Derek Prince talked about after the attempt 2350 02:41:20.159 --> 02:41:23.920 on Trump's life on one of those podcasts. He's like 2351 02:41:23.959 --> 02:41:27.840 you don't really want a police sensibility if you're trying 2352 02:41:27.840 --> 02:41:31.760 to protect the president or presidential candidate. You know you're 2353 02:41:31.760 --> 02:41:35.200 not You're not looking for poth suspicious people. You're not 2354 02:41:35.239 --> 02:41:38.719 scanting the crowd for a guy who's maybe strapped. You know, 2355 02:41:38.760 --> 02:41:41.840 you're looking for threats. And when you identify those threats, 2356 02:41:41.879 --> 02:41:46.079 you you you neutralize them. And yeah, like sometimes you're 2357 02:41:46.120 --> 02:41:50.239 wrong and that's bad, But I mean that that's the 2358 02:41:50.319 --> 02:41:56.920 the liabilities, moral and material that attend any any any 2359 02:41:56.920 --> 02:42:01.520 profession that that you know deals with the violent its currency. 2360 02:42:02.399 --> 02:42:06.600 But you know that the Princess is an interesting guy 2361 02:42:06.639 --> 02:42:10.920 and he he, he understands this better than most people, 2362 02:42:10.959 --> 02:42:13.639 despite the facts his background is military, not police. But 2363 02:42:14.639 --> 02:42:18.040 I think that actually is one of the things to 2364 02:42:18.079 --> 02:42:21.319 which is insight, oh is because it's hard to see 2365 02:42:22.920 --> 02:42:30.959 the parameters of of changing phenomena, particularly sociological or or 2366 02:42:32.799 --> 02:42:36.959 or or political phenomenon like from within an institution, you know, 2367 02:42:37.000 --> 02:42:39.239 and if you're if you even if you're on the 2368 02:42:39.239 --> 02:42:40.959 younger side, if you'l like a cop who's been doing 2369 02:42:41.000 --> 02:42:44.479 this for a decade or longer, like like basically you're 2370 02:42:44.479 --> 02:42:48.000 in you're in your entire conceptual horizon, you know, orbits 2371 02:42:48.000 --> 02:42:52.440 around kind of like police science and and the kind 2372 02:42:52.479 --> 02:42:56.000 of strictures that uh, you know supposedly are the are 2373 02:42:56.040 --> 02:42:59.959 the kind of core tenets of of policing, when when 2374 02:43:00.280 --> 02:43:04.360 that's that's pretty much dead in the water. And I 2375 02:43:04.360 --> 02:43:13.639 mean especially these days too, you know. I Uh, one 2376 02:43:13.680 --> 02:43:15.559 of the I lament a lot the death of the 2377 02:43:15.559 --> 02:43:18.760 public intellectual like as a as a type of person, 2378 02:43:20.159 --> 02:43:24.280 because I think they played an essential role. And that's 2379 02:43:24.280 --> 02:43:26.040 one of the reasons things have been done down so 2380 02:43:26.120 --> 02:43:29.239 much unto the Cold War is it's hard to determine 2381 02:43:29.319 --> 02:43:32.239 this is like a causal Varia Bullard or just like 2382 02:43:32.559 --> 02:43:39.879 a secondary effect. Maybe it's both. But you know, there's 2383 02:43:39.879 --> 02:43:44.399 this really great documentary called The Futurists, and uh it 2384 02:43:44.440 --> 02:43:46.840 came out in the seventies, like around the time. It 2385 02:43:47.479 --> 02:43:53.479 very much like was riffing on Alvin Toffler, the guy 2386 02:43:53.479 --> 02:43:56.120 who wrote Future Shock, which is a really good book. 2387 02:43:57.600 --> 02:44:01.600 But you know, this is the only guy I've heard 2388 02:44:01.680 --> 02:44:04.799 talk about the fact that you know, these days, if 2389 02:44:04.840 --> 02:44:06.680 if you want to hurt people, or if you want 2390 02:44:06.680 --> 02:44:11.079 to or if you want to assassinate a public official 2391 02:44:12.239 --> 02:44:15.760 or a or a high value target, you don't even 2392 02:44:15.799 --> 02:44:19.239 need to put eyes on them and and and close 2393 02:44:19.360 --> 02:44:21.959 physical distance and blast them. I mean you could, you 2394 02:44:21.959 --> 02:44:25.239 could program drones to swarm them like that would take 2395 02:44:25.280 --> 02:44:31.920 some planning and some money. But there's there's guys who 2396 02:44:32.280 --> 02:44:36.399 have never even had a smartphone, like in the tribaler 2397 02:44:36.520 --> 02:44:39.600 is a Pakistan, like they they learn how to program drones. 2398 02:44:40.319 --> 02:44:43.639 It's not like you need to be some It's not 2399 02:44:43.719 --> 02:44:46.200 you need to be some like under seventeen like boy 2400 02:44:46.280 --> 02:44:50.959 genius to do it. You know, they're they're very they're 2401 02:44:51.159 --> 02:44:55.760 they're very utile in bail field situations for that reason, 2402 02:44:56.840 --> 02:45:01.639 you know. And uh so this idea too that like 2403 02:45:01.680 --> 02:45:03.920 well unless we have like physical eyes on the ground 2404 02:45:03.920 --> 02:45:07.280 doing like patrols like we we we can't control a 2405 02:45:07.639 --> 02:45:11.639 we can't not control. We can't we can't provide security 2406 02:45:11.719 --> 02:45:15.760 for you know, for a physical space like this nonsense, 2407 02:45:16.200 --> 02:45:18.200 Like you don't need to do that anymore. In fact, 2408 02:45:18.239 --> 02:45:19.840 that might not even help. But what are you gonna 2409 02:45:20.920 --> 02:45:23.799 hypothetically in God forbid and that God doesn't happen. I mean, 2410 02:45:23.840 --> 02:45:27.200 let's say let's say the president or you know, somebody 2411 02:45:27.239 --> 02:45:31.000 else wasn't like Trump situation and like it doesn't like 2412 02:45:31.120 --> 02:45:33.399 drones like converge on them like a series I was 2413 02:45:33.399 --> 02:45:37.559 gonna do we start blasting the drones. They're if they're 2414 02:45:37.600 --> 02:45:39.520 kind of cozy, drones are all gonna die and then 2415 02:45:39.559 --> 02:45:42.120 blow up, you know, I mean, like what what are 2416 02:45:42.120 --> 02:45:47.200 you gonna do about them? It's such that there is 2417 02:45:47.239 --> 02:45:50.639 a countermeasure. I mean, yeah, you do any you do 2418 02:45:50.799 --> 02:45:55.399 still need eyes on the operational area, like ly looked 2419 02:45:55.479 --> 02:45:58.760 like spotting where somebody controlling those drones. But that guy 2420 02:45:58.840 --> 02:46:04.280 could be fourteen klometer away. Okay, you know things like that, 2421 02:46:05.159 --> 02:46:07.319 you know, and I realized that like people pete, the 2422 02:46:07.360 --> 02:46:09.639 rebuttal is gonna be like like subs watch and it's 2423 02:46:09.639 --> 02:46:12.200 gonna be like, well, that's not what like beat cops do. 2424 02:46:12.799 --> 02:46:14.559 It's like no, But that comes back to what I 2425 02:46:14.639 --> 02:46:18.520 said before. A lot of this stuff is is becoming 2426 02:46:18.559 --> 02:46:22.280 private eyes and a lot of it, you know, there's 2427 02:46:22.360 --> 02:46:26.479 not really a civic culture that interfaces with the bureaugrac anymore. 2428 02:46:26.879 --> 02:46:28.799 You know, like in a lot of ways that's positive 2429 02:46:28.799 --> 02:46:32.040 because stuff like we're doing, we're building genuine community and 2430 02:46:32.120 --> 02:46:35.079 a deliberate way. But I I don't want to fuck 2431 02:46:35.120 --> 02:46:38.799 with the police, Like if somebody, if somebody tried to 2432 02:46:38.879 --> 02:46:42.399 hurt me or my dad and my home. I defend myself, 2433 02:46:43.520 --> 02:46:46.760 and God forbid, if somebody died, like somebody attagging me, 2434 02:46:46.959 --> 02:46:49.000 obviously i'd call it in so I didnt get charged 2435 02:46:49.040 --> 02:46:54.159 with murder. But beyond that, like if somebody, if somebody 2436 02:46:54.399 --> 02:46:56.959 if like if I was at Starbucks and I find 2437 02:46:56.959 --> 02:46:59.840 I discover somebody stole my wallet, I'm not gonna call 2438 02:46:59.840 --> 02:47:01.920 it police. They're not going to care, Like what are 2439 02:47:01.920 --> 02:47:04.600 they gonna do? You know, this isn't nineteen eighty or 2440 02:47:04.639 --> 02:47:06.879 something where it's like if you have a problem, oh, 2441 02:47:06.920 --> 02:47:10.559 you call the police. Because there's kind of like this 2442 02:47:11.639 --> 02:47:16.399 not particularly intimate or or or or or deep, but 2443 02:47:16.440 --> 02:47:19.559 there is this kind of like basic moral consensus where 2444 02:47:19.559 --> 02:47:23.639 it's like, okay, like all all you know, all non 2445 02:47:23.639 --> 02:47:26.959 marginal people like call the police to resolve you know, 2446 02:47:27.040 --> 02:47:30.120 these these kinds of slights to the person of their property, 2447 02:47:30.479 --> 02:47:35.040 Like nobody thinks that way anymore, you know, so a 2448 02:47:35.079 --> 02:47:38.200 lot of that's dead. And as far as like physical 2449 02:47:38.239 --> 02:47:42.799 security and stuff, it's like, well, you know, you should 2450 02:47:42.879 --> 02:47:46.360 be you should be thinking about self defense. You shouldn't 2451 02:47:46.879 --> 02:47:49.040 be thinking like I'm gonna call the police protect me. 2452 02:47:49.559 --> 02:47:52.000 I mean, don't'et me wrong. I realize there's you know, 2453 02:47:52.479 --> 02:47:54.159 if you're like a single woman in like a big 2454 02:47:54.200 --> 02:47:56.159 city or something like, I have no doubt that that 2455 02:47:56.200 --> 02:47:58.200 can be like very scary, and you know, you need 2456 02:47:58.239 --> 02:48:00.120 to be able to call people to help you and stuff, 2457 02:48:00.159 --> 02:48:04.120 because you know, some people are vulnerable and that's a 2458 02:48:04.120 --> 02:48:07.120 difficult question, you know, and there's gonna be there's gonna 2459 02:48:07.159 --> 02:48:13.120 be gaps in in the protection that certain vulnerable people need. 2460 02:48:13.159 --> 02:48:14.600 And that's not a good thing. But that's the way 2461 02:48:14.840 --> 02:48:20.440 things always are. That doesn't somehow neck gate or defeat 2462 02:48:21.799 --> 02:48:28.440 sociological trends that are driven by historical processes and move ons, 2463 02:48:29.399 --> 02:48:31.879 you know, So that's important. What I will say is, 2464 02:48:31.920 --> 02:48:33.760 I take it back, is not forgive me. One of 2465 02:48:33.799 --> 02:48:35.440 the I should have said this when we were kind 2466 02:48:35.440 --> 02:48:38.639 of breaking down Wandblas catalog. The New Centurions is like 2467 02:48:38.680 --> 02:48:41.879 a good book. Yeah, it's like pro police stuff. And 2468 02:48:41.959 --> 02:48:44.920 because he was he was like an LAPD sergeant when 2469 02:48:44.959 --> 02:48:49.680 he wrote it, and so obviously he wasn't gonna trash 2470 02:48:50.319 --> 02:48:54.959 the organization. But also, you know, like we talked about 2471 02:48:54.959 --> 02:48:58.680 an early earlier episode, LAPD has always been kind of 2472 02:48:58.680 --> 02:49:02.399 like uniquely inter based with media, Like I guarantee that 2473 02:49:03.399 --> 02:49:07.079 La PD was way more involved in like the process 2474 02:49:07.479 --> 02:49:09.680 A many officer was like writing something, whether it was 2475 02:49:09.719 --> 02:49:11.799 like a TV or a film script or a novel. 2476 02:49:12.200 --> 02:49:17.799 So I guarantee you he had like like administration guys 2477 02:49:17.799 --> 02:49:24.760 like literally looking over his shoulder. But it does this. 2478 02:49:25.000 --> 02:49:27.719 It basically it doesn't have a traditional plot. It's very 2479 02:49:27.680 --> 02:49:33.159 episodic and there's three It follows these three young guys 2480 02:49:33.319 --> 02:49:34.959 like through the police a kid, I mean, then like 2481 02:49:35.000 --> 02:49:37.200 they hit the street, and like one of the guys 2482 02:49:37.280 --> 02:49:44.360 names is Duran. He's basically like a he's like a 2483 02:49:44.399 --> 02:49:46.559 Tejano guy, but he's he's like a white dude. He 2484 02:49:46.639 --> 02:49:49.280 like doesn't identify with like Chicanos. He's not from East La. 2485 02:49:50.280 --> 02:49:53.639 But because of like his appearance and his surname, like 2486 02:49:53.680 --> 02:49:57.840 he gets deployed like East La and like a heart 2487 02:49:57.959 --> 02:50:01.520 Basically I think around echo Park, I have to reread it. 2488 02:50:03.760 --> 02:50:08.479 But he uh, that's probably the most like people criticised 2489 02:50:08.520 --> 02:50:11.559 the book saying like, oh well, but he draws none 2490 02:50:11.600 --> 02:50:14.040 of my characters in simple minded terms. I think that's 2491 02:50:14.079 --> 02:50:15.440 the wrong way to look at it, because always do 2492 02:50:15.440 --> 02:50:19.239 with Duran is that Duran's like he he gets like 2493 02:50:19.280 --> 02:50:21.159 the Echo park Beat or whatever, and he's like, I'm 2494 02:50:21.159 --> 02:50:23.799 not like these fucking people like their scumbaggs. But then 2495 02:50:23.840 --> 02:50:26.559 he realizes, like on the street, like you are Mexican, 2496 02:50:27.079 --> 02:50:30.719 like you are mister policeman. People think you're one of them. 2497 02:50:31.040 --> 02:50:35.079 You know, it doesn't matter, and like as and it's 2498 02:50:35.079 --> 02:50:38.000 interesting too because like his perspective obviously, and those the 2499 02:50:38.040 --> 02:50:41.719 people he's charged with policing, Like as the Watchwrights jump off, 2500 02:50:41.879 --> 02:50:45.159 you see, like what the Spanish folks are thinking, you know, 2501 02:50:45.239 --> 02:50:46.920 because they're kind of like they're kind of like this 2502 02:50:47.079 --> 02:50:50.079 third variable, you know. And then like one of the 2503 02:50:50.200 --> 02:50:54.399 dudes is he's like this guy like funk guy college, 2504 02:50:55.120 --> 02:50:56.879 you know, and he's like do something. So he becomes 2505 02:50:56.879 --> 02:50:59.360 a cop, you know, and he's convinced he's like smarter 2506 02:50:59.399 --> 02:51:01.200 than everybody and shit, and he kind of like looks 2507 02:51:01.280 --> 02:51:03.319 down on his fellow officers. He's just like it's kind 2508 02:51:03.319 --> 02:51:06.719 of like regular like middle class white dude. But then 2509 02:51:06.840 --> 02:51:10.920 like he gets he gets assigned like the deep hood. 2510 02:51:11.319 --> 02:51:14.680 It's like when watch jumps off, like he gets he's, uh, 2511 02:51:14.840 --> 02:51:17.360 he's like under fire and stuff, and then he realizes, 2512 02:51:17.479 --> 02:51:21.319 like uh, he gets like humbled by the whole experience, 2513 02:51:22.399 --> 02:51:25.200 you know, like stuff like that. It's you know, and 2514 02:51:25.239 --> 02:51:28.440 I'm sure some people, especially like younger guys and girls, 2515 02:51:28.479 --> 02:51:31.159 who would think it was like corny, like the kind 2516 02:51:31.159 --> 02:51:36.360 of you know, the kind of like nineteen sixties era 2517 02:51:36.520 --> 02:51:41.559 kind of like bumper sticker patriotism. But it is like 2518 02:51:41.680 --> 02:51:45.719 a it is kind of like a snapshot, and it's 2519 02:51:45.760 --> 02:51:50.920 called the New Centurion. It's like the third guy who 2520 02:51:50.959 --> 02:51:53.440 I think is supposed to be Wamba because he's just 2521 02:51:53.479 --> 02:51:56.680 kind of like this like regular dude, who's who's you know, 2522 02:51:56.719 --> 02:51:59.559 he wants to be a police officer and he doesn't 2523 02:51:59.680 --> 02:52:03.600 have a lot of vices and stuff. But the guy who, uh, 2524 02:52:03.760 --> 02:52:06.239 the guy who teaches him how to like be a 2525 02:52:06.280 --> 02:52:10.799 street cop, ends up coming suicide. But that dude tells 2526 02:52:10.879 --> 02:52:15.479 him like, we're the new Centurions because basically America is 2527 02:52:15.520 --> 02:52:19.120 like the failing Roman Empire, you know, and and the 2528 02:52:19.159 --> 02:52:23.680 only thing that stands between the barbarians, you know, and 2529 02:52:23.680 --> 02:52:26.959 and what remains a civilization like are us. And that's 2530 02:52:27.000 --> 02:52:29.440 that's kind of like as bleak and subversive as the 2531 02:52:29.479 --> 02:52:32.079 book gets. But then like the character that drops that, 2532 02:52:32.399 --> 02:52:34.799 like he blows his brains out and it turns out 2533 02:52:34.799 --> 02:52:37.000 he thinks it's a big alcoholic. So I think that's 2534 02:52:37.040 --> 02:52:40.239 like by dropping like we'll talk with the Albie. Oh no, 2535 02:52:40.319 --> 02:52:46.559 that's a disturbed character. But that's interesting because it I, uh, 2536 02:52:48.520 --> 02:52:53.600 one of the one of the vin yet say, like 2537 02:52:53.600 --> 02:52:56.200 in the movie Cruising with al But you know, which 2538 02:52:56.239 --> 02:52:58.440 is an underrated It's like the subject matter is gross 2539 02:52:58.479 --> 02:52:59.799 and that puts a lot of people off. But I 2540 02:52:59.799 --> 02:53:02.159 think it's kind of like an American Jallo picture. I 2541 02:53:02.200 --> 02:53:07.639 really like it. But the the opening scene, there's these 2542 02:53:07.680 --> 02:53:10.440 two cops and one of us played by Joe Spenell, 2543 02:53:11.559 --> 02:53:15.639 and uh, they're driving around. I guess it's uh, I 2544 02:53:15.680 --> 02:53:19.360 think it. I think they're actually in Alphabet City, but 2545 02:53:19.360 --> 02:53:22.079 I think it's supposed to be the village and they 2546 02:53:22.120 --> 02:53:25.079 go by and there's there's there's like these dudes like 2547 02:53:25.159 --> 02:53:28.520 in leather and these guys, you know, these transsexual and 2548 02:53:28.559 --> 02:53:31.239 stuff and spells. Just like he's like, what the hell 2549 02:53:31.360 --> 02:53:35.440 is happening? You know, and it's like, uh, you get 2550 02:53:35.479 --> 02:53:41.760 that sense like in the New Centurions, like especially like 2551 02:53:41.840 --> 02:53:44.920 in the dan Umois where like the characters passed finally 2552 02:53:44.959 --> 02:53:47.639 crossing to watch it's like, you know, I took this 2553 02:53:47.799 --> 02:53:51.799 job because I wanted to like help vulnerable people or whatever, 2554 02:53:51.840 --> 02:53:54.280 and like, I'm literally pinned down my a dumpster because 2555 02:53:54.280 --> 02:53:56.959 it's a sniper like popping off at me with a 2556 02:53:57.000 --> 02:54:03.479 thirty six, Like what's happening here? Like something's something's coming apart, 2557 02:54:03.719 --> 02:54:07.440 you know, And so it's worthwhile for every reason. Well 2558 02:54:08.000 --> 02:54:10.079 wrote some later books, and like I said, it's kind 2559 02:54:10.079 --> 02:54:14.479 of interestingly James Elroy what I have mixed feelings about. 2560 02:54:14.559 --> 02:54:19.520 But I I do think he's important to Los Angeles 2561 02:54:19.559 --> 02:54:24.440 culture in some ways, and I I identify with him 2562 02:54:24.440 --> 02:54:27.840 and in some respects. But he he said when he 2563 02:54:27.879 --> 02:54:33.319 was home with some he said, uh, he said, he 2564 02:54:33.399 --> 02:54:36.239 saved a bunch of his money from panhandling and stuff, 2565 02:54:36.280 --> 02:54:42.440 and and like and uh say goodbye the Onion Field. 2566 02:54:42.479 --> 02:54:44.040 It was like his favorite book, you know. And he 2567 02:54:44.680 --> 02:54:46.520 and he always like Whooped Up the Cops and things 2568 02:54:46.559 --> 02:54:51.399 like that. And so she she shot out Wamba a 2569 02:54:51.399 --> 02:54:55.040 lot in his books, and then Wamba started writing books 2570 02:54:55.120 --> 02:54:57.319 kind of in the vein of Elroy. Like the later 2571 02:54:57.360 --> 02:54:59.760 stuff he wrote was kind of like a hard boiled 2572 02:55:00.200 --> 02:55:02.600 type stuff. Like one of his books is about like 2573 02:55:02.719 --> 02:55:06.840 nineteen eighties, like like Salmonano Valley and like porn shit, 2574 02:55:07.559 --> 02:55:09.879 and it's kind of grimy. I mean, that's a grimy 2575 02:55:09.920 --> 02:55:14.840 fucking subject, but it but it's I didn't find it 2576 02:55:15.000 --> 02:55:18.040 off putting, but I thought that it was for tablo reasons. 2577 02:55:18.040 --> 02:55:19.920 I'm mean, I read all kinds of stuff that people 2578 02:55:20.079 --> 02:55:24.360 probably find I would think it's gross, but it seemed 2579 02:55:27.159 --> 02:55:29.959 so something. It seems kind of like affected about it. 2580 02:55:30.120 --> 02:55:36.079 But so I I wouldn't recommend is like later stuff, 2581 02:55:36.120 --> 02:55:39.239 but definitely definitely read The Onion Field. I don't read 2582 02:55:39.280 --> 02:55:41.159 The Choir Boys. The Choir Boys is one of the 2583 02:55:42.520 --> 02:55:44.840 when I was sending out Frog packages before it became 2584 02:55:44.879 --> 02:55:47.760 too like Bell Luminous to send them out to people. 2585 02:55:47.799 --> 02:55:49.319 I want to get back to doing that, but I'm 2586 02:55:49.319 --> 02:55:50.920 gonna have to do it in a way where it's 2587 02:55:50.920 --> 02:55:52.600 not just like me going to the post office and 2588 02:55:52.639 --> 02:55:56.239 sending packages. But I think I sent out like five 2589 02:55:56.319 --> 02:55:59.360 or six paperbacks to The Choir Boys because I like 2590 02:55:59.440 --> 02:56:06.319 the book that much and it uh, it's had a 2591 02:56:06.440 --> 02:56:12.920 not insignificant impact on my own writing. But yeah, that's 2592 02:56:12.920 --> 02:56:18.680 about all I got for one. I I appreciate you 2593 02:56:18.920 --> 02:56:24.120 abiding my suggestions because, like I said, I think I 2594 02:56:24.120 --> 02:56:30.920 think he's I think he's an important contributor to the 2595 02:56:31.000 --> 02:56:37.719 kind of catalog of police lid, particularly particularly in the 2596 02:56:38.040 --> 02:56:41.680 capacities we're talking about. So I thought it was important, man, 2597 02:56:42.479 --> 02:56:46.120 But I. 2598 02:56:43.239 --> 02:56:48.559 Am I have I have a suggestion this This episode 2599 02:56:48.680 --> 02:56:53.799 was sort of sort of like our movie reviews, and 2600 02:56:54.639 --> 02:56:58.319 I think we should release one publicly so people can 2601 02:56:58.319 --> 02:57:01.520 see what's uh, you know, what we do. Yeah, man, 2602 02:57:01.639 --> 02:57:04.280 I think I think Resurrection Man would be a good 2603 02:57:04.280 --> 02:57:08.879 one to release publicly because that's one where you're just 2604 02:57:08.920 --> 02:57:11.799 breaking down the whole history of everything in the real 2605 02:57:11.840 --> 02:57:13.799 guys and area. I think people will really get off 2606 02:57:13.799 --> 02:57:14.079 on that. 2607 02:57:14.760 --> 02:57:16.479 Yeah. One of the reasons I wanted to review it 2608 02:57:16.520 --> 02:57:18.879 is because I thought people would be thirsty, because people 2609 02:57:18.879 --> 02:57:22.719 when I draw troubles oriented content, like people seem to 2610 02:57:22.719 --> 02:57:24.600 be really interested in it, you know. And I try 2611 02:57:24.639 --> 02:57:28.879 and do so very respectfully because for obvious reasons. And 2612 02:57:28.920 --> 02:57:35.959 I'm lucky that you know, I'm lucky that Ulster natives, 2613 02:57:36.000 --> 02:57:38.639 including like you know, my dear friend Lady of Schelle, 2614 02:57:39.959 --> 02:57:42.879 I've been willing to collab with me on stuff, you know, 2615 02:57:42.959 --> 02:57:47.479 because that's my bloodline and my confessional heritage. But obviously, 2616 02:57:47.520 --> 02:57:51.840 I mean, I'm I'm a fucking like Chicago jag Off. 2617 02:57:51.879 --> 02:57:56.680 I don't know to them be incited to other than 2618 02:57:56.840 --> 02:57:58.879 I don't have any great insight into the troubles, man. 2619 02:57:59.120 --> 02:58:02.719 I just I, I mean, kind of an obsessive study 2620 02:58:02.760 --> 02:58:05.799 of it because it's my heritage. But obviously you know 2621 02:58:05.879 --> 02:58:10.879 that that's a totally different thing. But yeah, I think 2622 02:58:10.920 --> 02:58:12.639 if it I think I think if it got the 2623 02:58:12.799 --> 02:58:16.600 right audience, they would really pop. And yeah, that's a 2624 02:58:16.600 --> 02:58:18.600 good idea. I think now is the time they do it. 2625 02:58:19.879 --> 02:58:21.879 Yeah, I'll throw it up on my YouTube channel and 2626 02:58:21.920 --> 02:58:25.879 direct everyone there to it. So thank you for this. 2627 02:58:26.959 --> 02:58:30.840 We'll talk about what to do next and privately and 2628 02:58:31.719 --> 02:58:34.799 do some do some plugs, and I'm gonna go talk 2629 02:58:34.840 --> 02:58:36.920 to the o G that's talks to the old Glory 2630 02:58:36.959 --> 02:58:37.680 Club guys. 2631 02:58:38.239 --> 02:58:45.040 That's great. I'm a I'm launching season three of the 2632 02:58:45.079 --> 02:58:49.159 pod the first week in February. And the guy who's 2633 02:58:49.159 --> 02:58:51.600 gonna collad with me on the first couple episodes, I 2634 02:58:51.680 --> 02:58:55.040 talked to him by phone today, which was which is awesome. 2635 02:58:56.319 --> 02:59:00.760 I'm gonna tweak it a little bit. I'll explain before 2636 02:59:00.760 --> 02:59:03.879 I releave, before I upload it, but I'm every day 2637 02:59:04.040 --> 02:59:07.680 today like I took five the first five episodes I'm 2638 02:59:07.680 --> 02:59:10.799 season one from behind the paywall. I'm gonna keep doing 2639 02:59:10.840 --> 02:59:13.200 that every day. I'm gonna remove five episodes from mind 2640 02:59:13.239 --> 02:59:16.040 the paywall until season one and two are totally free, 2641 02:59:16.799 --> 02:59:18.479 and I'm gonna I'm gonna upload a bunch of other 2642 02:59:18.559 --> 02:59:22.559 like free shit like content that I haven't released before. 2643 02:59:24.120 --> 02:59:27.159 You can find all of that good stuff on my substack. 2644 02:59:27.239 --> 02:59:31.040 It's real Thomas seven seven seven at substack dot substack 2645 02:59:31.079 --> 02:59:36.879 dot com, on social media at capital r E A 2646 02:59:37.040 --> 02:59:41.719 L number seven h O M A S seven seven seven, 2647 02:59:42.600 --> 02:59:45.000 and you can go to my website Thomas seven seven 2648 02:59:45.120 --> 02:59:48.399 seven dot com. But the first T or the only 2649 02:59:48.479 --> 02:59:51.200 T is a seven tho are the best plays to 2650 02:59:51.239 --> 02:59:53.680 define me. And like I said, I'm gonna make some changes, 2651 02:59:53.760 --> 02:59:56.680 but I keep everybody in the loop of what I'm doing. 2652 02:59:56.719 --> 02:59:59.239 Like on substack, you know, I at least once a 2653 02:59:59.239 --> 03:00:02.040 week I shout out like what's happening and what I'm doing. 2654 03:00:02.559 --> 03:00:04.559 So that's the place to go. 2655 03:00:06.200 --> 03:00:08.719 All right, thank you so much. Until the next time, 2656 03:00:08.920 --> 03:00:09.280 Jean