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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Gods I View podcast. I am your host, Trevor.

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I was upstairs working on a research paper, a paper

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I'm really excited about. I think this is going somewhere big.

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I think this is going to the maybe the Journal

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of the American Medical Association. That might be a little

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bit optimistic. Most likely, what will happen is I'll send

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it there and they'll kick it to one of their

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sister journals. That's not quite as cool. But I think

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it's going somewhere big Lancet. Maybe. How cool would that

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be New England Journal of Medicine. Anyway, I'm sitting here,

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I'm working, and I'm just kidding tired. It's it's kind

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of tedium, you know, finding the citations and crafting the sentences.

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I like to sort of I treat writing like a

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like kind of sacred and I like it to sound good.

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But I have to bottle that up because scientific writing

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is completely different. It's a completely different animal. I argue

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all the time with my collaborators about writing because they

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like these boring, choppy sentences, and I just want to

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talk about the fall of Rome in my research fame.

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Once Galileo said, the job of the scientist is to

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measure and to render measurable that which is not. And

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they're like, no, how about we just say the risk

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ratio is point eight and the P value is point

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zero zero five. Anyway, so I was up there writing,

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I was looking around. My wife is on a zoom call.

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My daughter's face timing her friend, which I love that

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that she's doing that. My son is just engrossed in

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his favorite YouTube channel, which is bass Phishing Productions. I

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love watching that show with him. But I was like,

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everyone's content. So I walked over. I carried my computer

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up to my wife and I whispered to her because

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she's on a zoom call, and I said, hey, I

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think I need a change of scenery. I think I'm

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gonna go downstairs and work. And she looked at me, like,

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don't you lie to me. I know what you're doing.

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I know what you're really doing downstairs. You're gonna record

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a podcast, call it Women's Intuition. She's right, it's here.

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I just needed a break too much to ask. Anyway,

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So we're gonna pick up where we left off. The

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question from Alex O'Connor to Jonathan Pagot was what was

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the serpent even doing in the garden. This is kind

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of an obvious question, right, the one that rarely gets asked,

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And I don't like that. I don't like the fragility

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that a lot of Christians have when it comes to

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theological questions. I think we have to be comfortable as

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Christians saying like, well, frankly, either you can say I

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don't know, or you can say I don't know. But

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there are a lot of people who have studied this

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topic deeply, so I guess I can look into it

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or something like, I don't know if it really needs

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to meet your understanding. You're human, temporary, fragile, and insignificant understanding,

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but we should be able to talk about it, right,

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And so that's what we're gonna do. And I think

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we're picking up right now with Jonathan's answer, which will

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undoubtedly beat thirty minutes long. So, oh my god, this

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always happens. I hit play. The commercial starts right at

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the climactic perfect I think we can No one can

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argue I delivered that perfectly. It was going to be

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high quality production, but no, it's a Vegas commercial. Oh no,

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what is going on now? I won't even move on

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it's I'm stuck in an infinite loop of commercial there's

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no option to skip. Oh now, I'm going to add

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from James Tallerico and Texas the Christian Democrat running for Senate,

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they should just give up. Okay, here we go. We're back.

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We're back. We're back.

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Speaker 2: Baby, into that which is not cohesive is trying to

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speak into that which is together. Right, So it's a

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it's poisoned.

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Speaker 3: And where where do you think this comes from? I mean,

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this is maybe a good question to sort of interject here.

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Why is the serpent in the garden? I mean, for

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a biblical literalist, that's going to be a difficult question.

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Why did God create a serpent? But you know, on

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this sort of allegorical account, what is this? What does

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this mean? We're sort of giving an account of the

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creation of the world and of mankind by a loving

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God who sort of creates human beings with a particular

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intention for them in mind, but also creates this serpent

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that's sort of slithering around and trying to sort of

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knock them off course, why is that there in the

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first place?

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Speaker 2: So this the serpent is that for in order for

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in order for something to exist just like good and bad.

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You need an aspect of this of strangeness. You need

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something which is the limit of of of being right

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or the limit of influence. Maybe it's a good way

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to understand it. So Adam names the animals. God says,

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name the animals. He's naming the animals. There are some

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things which escape his naming because he's not God. And

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so the serpent is a natural aspect of the world.

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Like you. You you encounter that all the time, right,

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you encounter strangeness. You encounter things that are not properly named,

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that don't have proper identity, and those those can I

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say this, like, and the reason and what you want

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to be able to do is to name that. And

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you you want to be careful that it doesn't it

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doesn't take over you, because the aspect of of the strange,

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that which is not doesn't fit, and that that you

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know it it's bigger than you. Right, it can eat you,

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it can swallow you up because it's not because it's

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it's it's outside. You could say, it's something like an

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image of chaos. Right, So okay, so let's let's let's

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let's let let's just I guess here here, let's let's

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start from again. Let's start from the beginning. God creates

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heaven and earth, He creates ordering, chaos. He he creates name, essence, purpose, identity,

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and then potentiality and darkness and chaos, right, and then

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in the scripture account he repeats that over and over

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he does that. He keeps doing that. So he creates

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something below, which is akin to very variation. And then

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he creates something above, which is akin to order. And

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he keeps doing that as he moves towards man. So

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he creates heaven and earth, right, then he creates you know,

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interesting levee. He creates the grass, and he creates stars, right,

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and then he creates birds, and he creates fish. Then

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he creates why do why do you said? You said

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animals and wild animals? Like what kind of categorization is that?

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For a biologist, that's a silly categorization, like why would

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you show you've got some animals and wild animals?

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Speaker 3: He's creating or right, But but what about like the

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you know, the the you said the grass and the

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stars or the birds and the fish. Why is it

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that the birds a sort of order and the fish

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are chaos?

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean, because the the birds are

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in the light and the fish are in the darkness.

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You have to you really have to break your if

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you want to under if your purpose is to understand

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the story, like you have to break out of your

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your your reduction is framed like. You just have to

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break out of it. You have to place yourself in

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the world as a being that experiences reality and is

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it and has a has an order of being. Right,

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So light comes from above, Right, patterns come from above.

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The stars in the sky move in a regular fashion.

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The things at the bottom here move in an irregular fashion.

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There's some pattern to it, but it's not a clear pattern.

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It's not it's not it's not a clockwork like pattern.

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And sure, and and the birds, the birds sing. I know,

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I know, you think that might sound stupid, But the

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birds they make patterns akin to the heavens, and they

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also live in the heavens, and therefore they they are

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akin to spiritual beings, like in terms of the experience

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of things that provide patterns from above, and then things

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that are kind of hidden in the darkest below.

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Speaker 1: All right, this is getting a little off the rails,

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but I'm gonna give him I have a listen to

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this yet. So I'm gonna give him. I'm gonna give

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him a chance. And I appreciate that Alex has giving

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him a chance too, because it's like, yeah, if the

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story kind of doesn't make sense from our modern perspective,

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so let's try to for a moment abandon our modern

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perspective and then maybe the story will make sense. I

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don't know so far. I would say, eh, you know,

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I'm not sure, but let's give it. Let's give it

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a chance.

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Speaker 2: Right. And so the way that the categories of being

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that are described are always related to the relationship between

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meaning and chaos, Like I said, that's why God, that's

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why the categories of of of mammals is like tame animals,

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wild animals, and creepy crawlers underground. Those are the three

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categories of animals. Like that's not that's not a biologist description.

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But so then that structure like the structure of ordering chaos,

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and that they joined order in the human because the

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human God takes the dust and then puts air inside.

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It's the first time in the whole text where he

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actually puts heaven in earth. Until then it's like this

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weird relationship of duality between order and chaos. They kind

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of move.

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Speaker 3: Closer and the bottom come together, and they come.

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Speaker 2: Together in man and he gathers the earth together and

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he blows air into it, and now you have a

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living being.

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Speaker 1: And so first of all, just say, if that's true,

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you know, if this is the symbolism that the author

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is trying to evoke, it's pretty amazing if it's true.

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Now here's the thing. I don't know if you remember,

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do you remember the Bible code. I remember my It

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is either my dad or my stepmom. Someone was very

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into this when I was like in high school, and

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it was like you could use the Bible to make predictions,

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and like there is these claims that you know, like

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the Bible predicts September eleventh, and it predicts World War

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two or whatever, and it I don't understand the details,

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but it was pretty fantastical and there were elements of

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it that were sort of compelling, and then there were

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of it. There's parts of it where it was like

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I don't know, and I think, if I'm remembering this correctly,

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I should I should check stuff before I just say it.

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But I'm telling you now, I think this is what

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I recall is that someone demonstrated you can do the

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exact same thing with Moby Dick. And the point was

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that that the predictive capacity just came from the fact

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that there's like a limitless number of characters in these

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books and if you like are trying to predict things retroactively,

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like you know, this thing happened, like you can sort

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of extract like somehow this and it's kind of it's

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kind of like a hypnosis, you know, a hypnotist, sorry,

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or not a hypnotist. The guy a medium you know

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on TV the people, is anyone out here having have

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something to do with the legs? You know something. I'm

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just picking up on something, something about legs And then

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the lady raises her hand. Oh my my father just

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fell and fractured his hip and he recently passed away

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due to complications. Yes, that's it. That's exactly right, you

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know what I mean. Like, so it's kind of like

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that there is almost an element of that to this,

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or there could be you know, there could be that

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you're trying to find meaning in the symbolism. However, that said,

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I some of this stuff actually is kind of I

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would say it seems sort of credible, like this idea

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that the Bible is sort of alternating between like order

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and heavenly creatures and disorderly and disorderly and wild creatures.

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And then at the end, after all of that, and

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it's not just a creatures too, it's dividing the waters

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from the waters and the heaven and the earth like

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it's up down, up, down, uptown. And then finally at

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the kind of the conclusion, it's like, and then we

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took the heaven and the earth and we put them together,

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and we made humans in our image, and this is

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God speaking. There kind of seems like there might be

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something to that, So I'm still on board. I'm not

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giving up on Jonathan.

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Speaker 2: That Then that structure gets repeated again in the text constantly.

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Then in the garden is the same structure. You have

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a tree and you have a serpent. A tree is

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an image of order, like an image of structure. It's

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a fractal, right, it's a fractal structure. And then you

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have a snake, and a snake is an image of change.

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It's an image of changes its skin. It's like it

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can be in two places at the same time. It's shifty,

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it's shrewd. It's an image of chaos, like the idea

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that a snake is the image of chaos. I hope

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you can see that this is something that is pretty universal,

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like in every culture, this kind of giant sea serpent,

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this Leviathan type slithering thing that that kind of moves

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and shifts and coils itself and is an image of

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a chaotic or strangeness of being, you know. And so

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that's what they're in the garden. The garden is just

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a microcosm of what was being said from the beginning.

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It just repeats the structure. And so in the garden

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you have the same structure as the beginning of genesis,

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of heaven and Earth coming together. So now you have

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this relationship between this tree, this tree which is structure,

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and the snake, which is chaos. And what God says

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is don't take that which is above for yourself, like

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don't take it with your own will. You can't do

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not eat of it. And what's implied, and I know

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this will sound annoying because it's implied only if you understand,

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if you see the whole text together, like the whole

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Bible is speaking to each other what's implied is that

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God will give them the fruit later. Okay, the Third Fathers,

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they say that that God had planned to give them

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the truth of and the Rabbi say, if they had

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only waited until Sabbath, like they would have, they would

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have received the fruit. It was only that they should

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not take it in willful pull ourselves. Yeah, in self causation, right,

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that's the problem. The whole A lot of the text

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is about causation.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's like God causes Adam. Adam causes the animals to

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some extent because he names them, so his role is

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to his name from above and to But now it's like, no,

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I'm going to take a name from myself, but I'm

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going to take I'm going to take this thing from

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heaven that's above me. Think about the tree going up

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into the heavens, that the apple is above. I'm gonna

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grab it above and I'm going to bring it down

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to me, you know, and then I'll be like God.

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I'm gonna make myself like God. Uh. And that's that's

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the problem in the story, you know. And the the

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like I said, many of the traditions say, because the

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tradition is is even in the text. It's hilarious because

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you know, the serpent says, eat the fruit and you'll

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be like God. This the text already says they're like God.

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The text says, they're creating the image of God. And

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so what is he actually doing. He's this, it's a

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it's a nice trick. He's like, if you eat the fruit,

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you'll be like God. And it's like, well, they were

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already like God.

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Speaker 3: And maybe they get something does change the right sorry,

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go ahead, yeah, so something something does change, right like that,

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their eyes are opened. They realize that the naked that's important.

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Did you skip that? Yeah, that's's right. That the sort

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of the nakedness, the sort of the introduction of shame.

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It seems into.

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Speaker 2: Notice that they're They notice that they're different. That's the

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best way to understand it. They realize that they have

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to hide themselves from each other. And so now before

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they were together, they didn't they were one. Made a

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good way to understand it. They were one in love.

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Like I know it sounds sappy to say that, but

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they were united with God. To the extent that.

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Speaker 1: I'm digging this, am I crazy?

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Speaker 2: This?

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Speaker 1: This this is so it's so much easier to like

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accept that this is just an incredibly complicated and symbolic

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story than to accept like that this literally happened this way.

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And again, I'm not even saying I don't think it happened.

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I'm just saying I think that there's a lot of symbolic,

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lot of symbolism. It's like a it's like a way

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of carrying a large amount of data into the future,

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you know, like we we have this story today because

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of the way it was written. If it was written

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in the way it literally happened, I just I don't

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think anyone would be able to No human would be

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able to contend with it. It would get destroyed, it

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wouldn't be carried on. Like whatever this event was, like,

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it had to be told this way, to be written

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this way. It was written in a way that it

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just appealed to our innate sense of story, in a

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way that it was transmitted orally and then written in

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a written form for thousands of years, and yet somehow

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still contains the actual story in this strange way. You know,

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it's like a ZIP file you take a thousand uh

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you know, I do this all the time on my computer,

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Like I have a thousand MRI images. There's no way

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I could possibly transmit them digitally because it's like one

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hundred or you know, five hundred gigabytes of data and

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I'm trying to put it in an email. You know,

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I can compress it and then it can be extracted

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and decoded later in a different place by someone else.

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And it's it's kind of like, that's sort of what

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happened in a cool way. You know. Maybe maybe I mean,

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maybe I'm just reading into it too much. But if

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I have to pick between this literally happened or this

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is like a symbolic representation of what happened, I'm going

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to pick the latter.

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Speaker 2: That's well, they were united with each other to the

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extent that that's possible, you know, while remaining separate. So

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it's like multiplicity and unity was was was balanced. And

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so now they eat the fruit of good and bad,

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and now they fall into bad. So now they start

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to see that they're different from the other as an opponent,

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and so they hide themselves. They keep secrets now from

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each other, and then they hide themselves from God. They

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keep secrets from God, and so that's death. They already

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started dying as soon as they ate the fruit. They

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started dying because they started to move into separation from unity.

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They move from a body into multiplicity. So think about

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like anything like a sports team or a company you know,

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that has multiplicity towards unity, like where all these people

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were kind of a team and working together towards the purpose.

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And so because that we have this nice dance aspect

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to what we're doing. But then if if we fall

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into suspicion, then now I see my team member as

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my enemy. So now I hide things from them, Now

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I blame them, and now we're blaming each other and

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where we've forgotten, like they're even the reason why we're

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we're together towards this purpose.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, there's a weird way that this

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actually kind of is the natural reading of the text.

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I know, and I know it's crazy to say, but

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you know when you read it, there is almost you

354
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feel it in the rhythm of the story. You feel like,

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you know, because Adam blames Eve immediately, you know, she

356
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told me to. And they're naked and they're aware, and

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they hide themselves and they hide from God, and God's like,

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why are you hiding?

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Speaker 2: You know?

360
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Speaker 1: And it's because I heard you and I was naked.

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Who told you you were naked? Did you eat of

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the tree? I told you not to eat of? And

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there's it's just this immediate just like disarray. You know,

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it's this great story there everyone is one and they're

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in the presence of God and they're in the garden,

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and yeah, there is chaos and disorder. There are the

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creepy things, and there is the serpent. But they are

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united and they are following God's will. But then they don't.

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Chaos speaks to Eve and Eve chooses. He doesn't grab

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her hand and push it up to the fruit. Eve

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chooses to enact her will, which is indirect opposition to

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God's will, and she dies and it just sets this

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chain of events of chaos and disorder. It's there is

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kind of a way where as crazy and symbolic and

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like mumbo jumbo philosophical mumbo jumbo, it's like, no, this

376
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actually kind of is the story. It's pretty cool. I

377
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like this. I'm into it.

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Speaker 2: That spells death. That's death. That means that now you

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won't accomplish the purpose of what you're doing.

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Speaker 3: So talk to me about the fairness of this. Because

381
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when God comes back to them and they're hiding because

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they're naked. God says, well, who told you were naked?

383
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You know?

384
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Speaker 2: Did you?

385
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Speaker 3: Did you do what I told you not to do?

386
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And Adam says, oh, it was Eve, she made me

387
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do it.

388
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Speaker 1: Okay, just to give you a heads up. So this

389
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video is like segmented up into chapters. So we just

390
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finished the chapter which was titled what was the Serpent

391
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Doing in the Garden? This chapter is was it Fair

392
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for Eve to be punished? And it's another seven minutes,

393
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so that probably probably will be all we do. So

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we'll probably do a part three and maybe even a

395
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part four of this. And but the next part is

396
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the part that got replayed the most, so it's probably

397
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the most interesting, and that is the big problem with

398
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the dot dot Dot doesn't say so maybe we'll try

399
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to do two more chapters. But here we go. We'll

400
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start was it fair for Eve? To be punished?

401
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,319
Speaker 3: And God goes to Eve and Eve says, oh, it's

402
00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:53,880
the serpent. The serpent deceived me. And then God says

403
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to the serpent, because you have done this, and then

404
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,000
punishes the serpent as if sort of accepting eve charge

405
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that it was the serpent.

406
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Speaker 2: Who did this.

407
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Speaker 3: Eve charges that the serpent deceived her, and it seems

408
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on this reading that that's what's actually happened. If indeed

409
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the serpent is the evil one, the chaotic one who's

410
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sort of bringing in something that shouldn't be there. It's

411
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not like the serpent says, tell what Eve, you know,

412
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do this? Do this super evil thing, do this bad thing?

413
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Be be a bit naughty. The serpent deceives her by saying,

414
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this is the thing you should do.

415
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,079
Speaker 2: You know, this is this is this is.

416
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:27,599
Speaker 3: What this is like you want like you could be

417
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like God exactly and so and so again. I sort

418
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of understand that as a as a modern person sort

419
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,680
of writing an essentially fictional account of the sort of

420
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,559
mythological origins of the way we think about the world,

421
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this sort of warning of like wanting to be like

422
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,359
God seeming like a good thing until you get it. Like, yeah, interesting,

423
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,720
nice moral point in all, But when you're looking at

424
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,000
this story as a sort of more fleshed out narrative

425
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for Eve to be deceived into doing this and then

426
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,400
be suffering what seems to be like a positively inflicted

427
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,079
punishment as a result, and also if this is some

428
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,680
broad story about the way that sort of sin sort

429
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,440
of enters the world and what it is to be

430
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,279
connected to God or separated from God, or like to

431
00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:14,680
be mortal or not to be mortal. It seems so

432
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,559
strange that the punishment that God instills is something so

433
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sort of specific and physical, like you're going to You're

434
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,440
going to scream a bunch in childbirth.

435
00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 2: Now, well, the punishment is perfect for what it is

436
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,680
that I'm trying to explain to you. It's it's not

437
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,039
even a punishment it is. God doesn't say I'm going

438
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to punish you. God just says, this is what's going

439
00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:39,799
to happen. He says, now that you've.

440
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,799
Speaker 3: I will make your your your pains in child but

441
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,279
bearing very severe. You know, with painful labor, you will

442
00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:50,279
give birth to your children. Your desire will be for

443
00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:52,240
your husband, and he will rule over you. It seems

444
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,680
like God is sort of ordaining this this system. Now

445
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,039
now man will rule over you.

446
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Speaker 2: So the way the way to understand, especially the way

447
00:24:59,519 --> 00:25:03,160
to understand curses and blessings in the scripture, there are

448
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,759
two aspects of it right. One aspect is God is

449
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making it so. But God is also making it so

450
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,200
because that's actually the nature of the world. It's like,

451
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,400
this is actually God. The world has a certain structure

452
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,880
and a certain function, and if you do certain things,

453
00:25:19,519 --> 00:25:22,480
then certain things happen. Right. It's like I could say,

454
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,599
I could say, for example, to you, I could say,

455
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,920
if you if you start taking Heroin, this is what's

456
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,440
going to happen. And then you start taking Heroin and

457
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,839
I say, well, I told you that's what's going to happen.

458
00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:36,039
Now it's going to happen, and then you have the

459
00:25:36,079 --> 00:25:37,440
consequences of your action.

460
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,599
Speaker 3: But if it was if it was something like, Okay,

461
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,480
I told you not to take Heroin, Alex, and now

462
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,319
that you have taken Heroin, I'm going to greatly increase

463
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,559
your pains. I'm going to make things difficult for you.

464
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,960
I'm going to lock you in a room and send

465
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you to rehab. There's a sense okay, rehab. It's a

466
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,440
good example there, because like if I lock you in

467
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,240
a room to sort of make you a cold turkey

468
00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:58,319
and give a proin, that's a sense in which I

469
00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:00,920
could say, Look, what I was basically saying is that

470
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,680
if you take Heroin, this is what's going to happen

471
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,039
to you, and that's kind of true, but it's still

472
00:26:04,039 --> 00:26:05,680
true that I'm the one who's doing that to them.

473
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,240
Maybe it's for their own good, maybe it's what they need,

474
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,039
maybe it's what they deserve, like who knows, But it

475
00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:13,680
doesn't seem like it's just some like natural result of

476
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,960
eating this fruit that Adam and Eves sort of you know,

477
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,279
suddenly find themselves fooling away from the garden of eden.

478
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,440
Is like God finds them, says, hold on, what have

479
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:21,799
you done? And then banishes them.

480
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,839
Speaker 2: Let's look at the curses together. It's look at the

481
00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:29,000
three curses because they're actually just they're just repetitions of

482
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,640
the of each other. Like each curse is actually has

483
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,160
the same structure, and it's one is applied to the serpent,

484
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,240
when is applied to man, and is applied to one

485
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:38,680
is by to woman and was applied to man. But

486
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,240
it has the same structure, and it's the structure of death.

487
00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:44,000
It's a structure of revolution, and it's the structure of

488
00:26:44,839 --> 00:26:47,759
the process of death. You could say, the problem of death. Oka. Okay,

489
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:51,720
so he starts with actually the first thing, the first

490
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,799
thing to understand is the end of it. The end

491
00:26:53,839 --> 00:26:57,799
of it is the key because the end, says curses

492
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,920
the ground, because he said, sorry, the end is from sweat,

493
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,319
from dust you have come, and to dust you have returned.

494
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,839
You will return that. That's it. He's saying, Remember that

495
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,640
dust thing. Remember the elements that have nothing to do

496
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,599
with each other, that aren't connected in unity. That's where

497
00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:16,960
you come from. Now you're going to return to that disunity.

498
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,200
You're gonna break apart into multiplicity that is not related

499
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,799
to each other. Okay, And so the first thing he

500
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,440
says is to the serpent, he says, right, you are

501
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,680
going to be on the ground and you're going to

502
00:27:31,799 --> 00:27:35,839
eat dust. So obviously it's related to the dust that

503
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,599
is in the end of the curse. Right, he's saying,

504
00:27:38,599 --> 00:27:44,079
there's a connection between the two. He's saying. So he's saying,

505
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,480
now you are going to only eat that which has

506
00:27:46,519 --> 00:27:49,839
no identity with each other. You are only the only

507
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,400
thing that you will feed on are things that are

508
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,160
not connected to each other. You will now be only

509
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,559
say chaos that serves chaos instead of the way that

510
00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:03,400
chaos in the in the in the Genesis structure, chaos

511
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,519
is somehow is the potential for being right. It's basically

512
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:09,599
that out of which being comes. And so now he's saying, no,

513
00:28:09,839 --> 00:28:14,240
you are going to only be chaos. You are going

514
00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:17,160
to eat chaos. And and you're going to say, be

515
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,279
the identity of chaos is a good way to say.

516
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,119
And then what you're going to do is you're going

517
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,839
to continue this revolutionary trope. You're going to bite at

518
00:28:24,839 --> 00:28:28,720
the heel of man. And now because of that, man

519
00:28:28,799 --> 00:28:31,160
has to impose order on you. He's going to crush

520
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,559
your head. Now you've got the beginning of civilization right there.

521
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,880
It's like, now order becomes something like a form of

522
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,240
tyranny or a form of imposition of a of a

523
00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:48,599
of a force on chaos. And so that's the beginning

524
00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:50,279
of that, right, It's like, right there in that image

525
00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:53,519
you see the beginning of what we'll later call civilization.

526
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,440
And so the serpent comes and bites at the heel

527
00:28:57,599 --> 00:29:01,039
the man has to crush it. The next one, the

528
00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:06,000
next one is, oh, Eve, you are the agent of multiplicity, right,

529
00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:08,640
that's what Jorna was trying to bring about. You are

530
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,279
the agent of multiplicity of Adam. You are that which

531
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:15,200
multiplies Adam. But now you will do it in suffering.

532
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,240
Now the production of multiplicity will not be towards unity,

533
00:29:20,279 --> 00:29:22,240
will not be towards cohesion. It will be towards pain.

534
00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:26,440
It will be towards suffering. It will move multiplicity into suffering.

535
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:29,480
And then the same structure is gonna happen. You're gonna

536
00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:34,200
desire for your husband and he's gonna crush you. That's

537
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,759
what's coming, right. It's like you will have that movement

538
00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:41,640
towards a revolutionary movement, or that movement of desire to

539
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,920
get what your husband has, and he will rule over you.

540
00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:47,519
And then the third one is the same thing, the

541
00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:51,240
same structure. He says, Now the ground is cursed. It's

542
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,079
going to produce opposition. It's going to produce thorns that

543
00:29:54,119 --> 00:29:58,119
are that are going to oppose to you. And you're

544
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,640
gonna have to work, and you're gonna have to impose

545
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,400
your will on the earth in order for it to

546
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,359
produce fruit to you. And so and then all of that.

547
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:11,359
Speaker 1: God is kind of cool, huh. I know, cool is

548
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,359
a wholly inadequate word, but it is kind of like,

549
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:19,599
I guess, you know, maybe you could accuse me of

550
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:23,079
giving Jonathan too much leeway with this interpretation, but I

551
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,759
don't know. It does kind of seem like the curse was, Hey,

552
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,640
you want to exercise your will. You want to do

553
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,839
things the way you want to do them. You know,

554
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,720
I gave you free will, so I'm glad. I was

555
00:30:35,759 --> 00:30:39,400
hoping you would defer to mine of your own volition. Right,

556
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,839
this is God, right, I'm playing the role of God

557
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,720
right now. You know, I was hoping you choose to

558
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,200
follow my will on your own, but you didn't. And

559
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,480
that's okay. But what comes with that is you got

560
00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:55,640
to make it happen. It's up to you now, you know.

561
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,200
It is kind of a mirrors like a benevolent father,

562
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,000
which is like, okay, hey, you want to do it

563
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,920
your way. Okay, you know this is how it's gonna be.

564
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:08,599
And it's not vindictive. I mean, you could interpret it

565
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:13,200
as vindictive every teenage boy does. Right, It's like, okay,

566
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,960
you're on your own, you know now. But but fortunately

567
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,119
we aren't really on our own, as we'll learn in

568
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,880
the Bible, like he is still a beneflent father. He

569
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,000
just is allowing us to just mess up, you know,

570
00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:30,720
and learn and come on, like, let's say, heaven is real.

571
00:31:31,759 --> 00:31:33,839
Are you not gonna look back at this time and

572
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,920
realize that you learned a lot. Some people won't. Some

573
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:44,039
people learned to hate creation, but others won't. Others will

574
00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:47,599
learn to love the good parts, others will learn to

575
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:50,039
hate the bad parts. And I think you can do both.

576
00:31:50,079 --> 00:31:52,880
But ultimately, I think you will have learned something right

577
00:31:54,319 --> 00:32:00,160
about yourself, about being about God, about what you want?

578
00:32:01,839 --> 00:32:07,160
You know, Like, is that is joy and love and compassion?

579
00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:11,480
Is that better than pride and envy and lust and wrath?

580
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: Like?

581
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: Are you willing to give the one up? Even though

582
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,880
there's benefits? Like who who doesn't love some righteous indignation

583
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:26,319
and some competition and some envy and some lust and desires.

584
00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:31,000
It's they're the passions, you know. Let's not act like

585
00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:35,519
they're just these things are all inherently unappealing, Like, let's

586
00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:38,920
be real. We desire them, We have a strong desire

587
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,759
for them. And so in life do we learn like, hey,

588
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:45,640
it's not worth it. I think that is a pretty

589
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,720
cool way of looking at it. I don't know, I

590
00:32:47,839 --> 00:32:49,519
like this. I keep saying that over and over. I do,

591
00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:53,640
but I do. It's nice. It's nice to hear a

592
00:32:53,799 --> 00:33:01,559
Christian deploying like deep intellectual curiosity and what you might

593
00:33:01,599 --> 00:33:08,960
call philosophy to theological issues. You know, imagine having this

594
00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:14,000
conversation at the Zipline Jesus swimming pool back to some place.

595
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,640
You know, I'm being hard on them, but you know

596
00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:23,519
the light show Zipline Jesus and the band and Jonathan

597
00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:25,920
Bajoe gets up there. All right, guys, listen, listen, we

598
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:32,799
got to talk about the anyway. It's just different strokes

599
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:34,359
for different folks, I suppose.

600
00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: So basically it's it's like order is going to increase

601
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,039
because you're gonna have to impose it on chaos before that.

602
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:45,039
The sense is that order is naming, Order is is inviting.

603
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,240
Order is right. God calls the earth and says, bring forth,

604
00:33:49,519 --> 00:33:51,720
and then God is naming things. And so order is

605
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,079
this beautiful almost like dance of meaning, where there's a

606
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,000
balance between like God just gives the identities and people

607
00:33:59,039 --> 00:34:02,039
recognize them in particip debating them. Now it's like no, no, no, Now,

608
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,400
order is going to be forced. Now, order is going

609
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,680
to be imposed from from from above. And that's the

610
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,920
consequence of death. Is that is that? And so whether

611
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,519
you like it or not, like whether you think okay,

612
00:34:13,519 --> 00:34:16,599
it's unfair, it sucks or whatever, like that's our experience

613
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,199
that's how that's our experience of the world. Our experience

614
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,920
of the world is that when chaos increases, we're in

615
00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:27,719
danger of fragmenting into dust. So you're in a you're

616
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,400
in a company, and now people are starting to act

617
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,599
against each other. They're starting to pull the blanket, they're

618
00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:34,960
starting to be corrupt, they're starting to steal money. And

619
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,840
therefore the danger the company is going to split into dust.

620
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,440
It's going to stop, it's going to stop existing. So

621
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,239
what do we do. We make rules and then we

622
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,400
impose them.

623
00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: God, this is our experience. I love that. Like it

624
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:53,159
or not, this is the way our our existence works.

625
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:58,159
I mean, even even the process of life, like on

626
00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:01,000
a biological level, mirrors the You know, we have all

627
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,119
of these disparate cells with unique wills, and there is

628
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:09,920
some forceet just forces them to heal. And it says, no,

629
00:35:10,519 --> 00:35:14,639
you're a muscle cell, you know your bone. Oh you

630
00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:18,880
want to go scavenge for nutrients. Too bad, You're now

631
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,440
a mucous producing cell in the lining of this stomach. Yeah,

632
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,519
we know you all have the same DNA, but no,

633
00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:32,639
this is what you are. You do not have an identity, right,

634
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,559
And then as you h just changes. This is what

635
00:35:34,679 --> 00:35:37,320
cancer is. Cancer is the reversal of that process. It's

636
00:35:38,119 --> 00:35:41,519
it's Eve choosing. Now I'm really stretching it, but Eve

637
00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:45,199
choosing to exert her own will. Right, It's each cell says, wait,

638
00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:48,800
maybe I'm not a bone cell. Maybe I'm my own thing.

639
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,360
And what do you do if you're your own thing?

640
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,000
You go out, you spread, you reproduce, you consume, and

641
00:35:56,119 --> 00:35:59,119
all disease is really like a departure from this like

642
00:36:01,119 --> 00:36:05,639
collective identity, or at least a failure to live up

643
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:09,920
to your role and your potential. And that's death. And

644
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,199
you return to dust. From dust. You came to dust,

645
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:15,159
you will return.

646
00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:18,079
Speaker 2: We find ways of ejecting people, We figure out how

647
00:36:18,119 --> 00:36:22,039
to fire people. We have processes to reprimand things that

648
00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:24,840
go against the purpose of the company. So that's what's

649
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:25,840
been set up here.

650
00:36:26,639 --> 00:36:29,599
Speaker 3: That sounds a little bit like punishment reprimanding. I know

651
00:36:29,679 --> 00:36:31,800
you're sort of speaking analogically that, but but I mean,

652
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,159
for example, the pain.

653
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,159
Speaker 1: And sorry I was just going to say the metaphor

654
00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:39,199
here would be the immune system. You know, that's the hammer.

655
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,400
You want to be your own thing. You're dead and

656
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,599
we're hammers. This is this is the fractal all things.

657
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,199
He's using corporations and institutions as the metaphor, but it's

658
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:53,760
all things.

659
00:36:54,559 --> 00:36:58,519
Speaker 3: It's very cool just where you live in alex Yeah,

660
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:00,679
so you said, this is what I understand. I totally

661
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,119
understand why somebody who lives in this world would write

662
00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:05,960
the Genesis account, right, I totally get why somebody who

663
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,440
finds themselves in a world of misaligned desires and suffering

664
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:14,119
and childbirth and all this kind of stuff, pain and childbirth.

665
00:37:14,159 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: I mean, God, this is the right question to ask.

666
00:37:16,679 --> 00:37:18,679
You've got to give it to the guy. Okay, you've

667
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,519
sold me, right, You've sold me that this is a rich,

668
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:27,920
unbelievably poetic description of the human experience. Did it happen.

669
00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 3: Would write this account that tries to encompass this sort

670
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:41,079
of deep psychological feeling that we have about our unfittedness

671
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:43,519
to the world and our desire that the world be

672
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:45,119
a way that it isn't, and that there's sort of

673
00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:48,719
a our sort of upset about our knowledge of our

674
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,079
own mortality. I mean, I could say the thing that

675
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:53,199
makes human being special is that they know they're going

676
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,159
to die in a way that a cat probably doesn't know.

677
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:57,760
It's going to die.

678
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:58,199
Speaker 2: Who knows.

679
00:37:58,199 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 3: I'm not a biologist, but whatever, let's say that's the case.

680
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,639
I could say, okay, so the genesis account, because we

681
00:38:03,639 --> 00:38:05,639
find ourselves in the world where we're the only creatures

682
00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:09,199
who know we're going to die. Speaking really crudely here,

683
00:38:09,559 --> 00:38:11,840
I write this story because obviously the stories of comes

684
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,320
up out of you know, this this tradition of thinking

685
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,199
which will encompass, you know, a depth of thought that

686
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,639
it's impossible for a single person to author. But you'll

687
00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:25,199
see what I'm saying that this story emerges that well,

688
00:38:27,679 --> 00:38:30,440
this knowledge of good and evil, the thing that enters

689
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,239
the world is mortality. Maybe it's got something to do

690
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:34,760
with the fact that I'm trying to tell the story

691
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,880
of how humans came to be the only ones that

692
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,400
knew they were going to die. And once we learned

693
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,800
that we were going to die, we suddenly became a

694
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,400
lot more scared and a lot more you know, like

695
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,840
our nakedness, because we recognize that we were sort of

696
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,960
exposed to the elements. And now we're going to have

697
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,039
to fight with each other and toil with each other,

698
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,920
and we're going to have to sort of, you know,

699
00:38:55,039 --> 00:38:57,039
get property rights and all of this kind of stuff,

700
00:38:57,039 --> 00:38:58,400
because if we don't, we're going to.

701
00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:01,679
Speaker 1: I'm just going to preempt Jonathan's answer by saying, like

702
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,159
I don't. I don't think Jonathan really can have an

703
00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:07,639
answer to this question. Now, if he does, awesome, But

704
00:39:08,159 --> 00:39:10,920
the truth is, like if he did, if he had

705
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,079
like a very compelling answer to this question, like then

706
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:19,239
there would be no debate, you know, Like I think

707
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,440
it's just enough to say, like, we don't fit in

708
00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:27,000
this world. We all know that the fact that we

709
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:30,920
know that, or have the ability to think that, points

710
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:36,679
to our uniqueness. And here's a story that perfectly captures

711
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:45,639
this like unbelievable philosophical metaphor and like and that's just

712
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,440
that one story, and their story after story after story

713
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,800
in thousands of pages, and there's a fulfillment of these

714
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,079
stories in the form of a man who claims to

715
00:39:55,159 --> 00:39:59,960
be sent from the Father in heaven and he's crucified,

716
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:05,760
is reborn. Pretty pretty cool story, bro, you know what

717
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,119
I mean. So it's like, yeah, I mean, I don't

718
00:40:08,119 --> 00:40:10,920
think we can really expect Jonathan to be like, well, actually,

719
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:17,000
I've been digging in an Ethiopia or Iraq, and I

720
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:20,519
did find direct I found direct evidence that this literally

721
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,800
and actually happened, you know, or even metaphorically happened. Like

722
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,039
it's an impossible it's you ask too much, Alex. But

723
00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:30,159
we'll see what he says. Die.

724
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,039
Speaker 3: And it's this knowledge of death entering the world that

725
00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:35,119
totally ruined things for us. And that's what's trying to

726
00:40:35,119 --> 00:40:37,480
be encompassed in the Genesis story. Like I could sort

727
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,440
of come up with a story like this and it

728
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,199
would actually make sense because, like you just said, a

729
00:40:41,199 --> 00:40:42,760
moment ago, I could say, look, man, this is just

730
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,440
the world you live in, and this is a narrative

731
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,039
attempt to capture that. The problem in the Christian tradition

732
00:40:48,119 --> 00:40:51,960
for me is that Genesis can't just be an attempt

733
00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:54,440
to sort of describe ay the world as you find

734
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,920
it and offer a sort of a narrative account of

735
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,320
our psychological feelings towards the world. It has to also

736
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,280
say that this character, this Lord God, is the intentional

737
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,719
creator of this system. He had reasons to make things

738
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,360
the way that they are. You know, the fact that

739
00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:13,679
a knowledge of good and evil will lead to increased

740
00:41:13,679 --> 00:41:18,280
pain and childbirth, for example, seems something contingent, right when

741
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,159
you are God, When you're the creator of the universe.

742
00:41:20,199 --> 00:41:21,880
It seems like it didn't have to be that way.

743
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,519
And so you know, when you say, well, that's just

744
00:41:24,559 --> 00:41:26,880
the world you're in, I agree, But I'm not the

745
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:28,480
one who believes that there's a god who sort of

746
00:41:28,599 --> 00:41:30,440
ordains that things be that way. You see what I'm saying.

747
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,039
Speaker 2: I mean, I kind of see what you're saying, but

748
00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:36,800
not really in the sense that in the sense that

749
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,119
first off, First off, that the text is how can

750
00:41:41,159 --> 00:41:43,199
I say the text is a description of what happened.

751
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,360
It's not just someone who sat around and made up,

752
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:48,559
you know, this story. I don't think anybody made up

753
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:52,119
this story. It's not a scientific description. It's not a

754
00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:55,719
it's not in any ways the type of description that

755
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,599
modern people like. But it is a description of it

756
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,320
is I think it is a description of an event.

757
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,199
It's not an event in the in the banal sense,

758
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,840
because it's in some ways a meta event, but it

759
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,599
is it is a description of something that that happened.

760
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:21,119
And how can I say this? It's like, there is

761
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,800
no other way for the world to exist besides the

762
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,239
relationship between unity and multiplicity, because it is the very

763
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:36,039
core of how identities function. And so identities, the one

764
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:39,320
of the identity is made up of the multiple of

765
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:44,199
its parts, and that's actually the very the very source

766
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:50,880
of how something exists. And so to give a story

767
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,239
that gives really it's giving a metaphysics. It's giving a

768
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,599
manner in which the world exists. Right, the relationship between

769
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,440
between unity and name and meaning and spirit, all of

770
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:07,679
these things, and the relationship between multiplicity and death and chaos,

771
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,079
variation change, that's what the story is talking about. And

772
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:17,679
so it isn't an arbitrary god that just arbitrary to

773
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,360
decide the world functions that way. There is no other

774
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,639
world you can conceive of besides the world that is

775
00:43:22,639 --> 00:43:26,599
being described in Genesis. I'd like to hear of another

776
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,000
world that is not made up of the joining of

777
00:43:31,079 --> 00:43:37,400
unity and multiplicity, in which if multiplicity is given free reign,

778
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,840
then it will annul the unity and will lead to.

779
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,599
Speaker 1: Oops. I need to use duck duck go like a

780
00:43:50,639 --> 00:43:54,159
listener recommended. Apparently there's no commercials on duc dot go.

781
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,800
Can that be real? I don't know. I need to try.

782
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: Here we go like it needs a breakdown of identity.

783
00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:05,800
Speaker 3: So tell me help me understand this. What's wrong with

784
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:10,679
the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, trees that they're

785
00:44:10,679 --> 00:44:12,840
eating of, maybe even still the tree of knowledge of

786
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,360
good and evil that they can't eat from that if

787
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,000
they eat of it, you know everything's going to go wrong.

788
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,320
But there's no serpent. Now, I now you say that

789
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,519
there needs to be this element of the chaotic and

790
00:44:25,559 --> 00:44:27,639
the and the strange as sort of the boundary of

791
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,760
of I can't remember exactly how you described it before,

792
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,280
but but just sort of crudely here, like help me understand,

793
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,039
and maybe you'll feel like you're repeating yourself here. I'm

794
00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:39,920
sorry if you do. But this, this, this picture of

795
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,800
the Garden of Eden, I'm sort of imagining I'm doing

796
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:43,679
my big Renaissance painting, and I've got Adam and I've

797
00:44:43,679 --> 00:44:45,280
got Eve, and I've got the grass and the trees,

798
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:48,800
and God's there somewhere, and there's just no serpent. And

799
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,320
the serpent just never gets introduced, it's never created, and

800
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,920
everyone lives happily ever after. You know, what, what's what's?

801
00:44:54,119 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: What's? I get?

802
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 3: Maybe that's not the world we find ourselves in. But

803
00:44:58,079 --> 00:44:59,039
why why.

804
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: Didn't Well I just to kind of play to be

805
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,199
an advocate here, I guess in this case, God's advocate,

806
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,960
not the devil's advocate. I don't know, I kind of

807
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,280
feel like you need both, right, I mean, what's the

808
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:20,519
value in not? It's like it's like again I'd made

809
00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:23,079
this comment before, but like, what's the more noble? You know,

810
00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:27,760
maybe this is a bad example, so but what's more noble?

811
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,480
A man who doesn't cheat on his wife because he's

812
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:37,360
out of shape and unemployed and a jerk and a scumbag. Like,

813
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,960
do we at the end of his marriage say, what

814
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,440
what a what a tremendous moral man, what a what

815
00:45:45,559 --> 00:45:51,079
a moral figure? He never once cheated on his beautiful wife? Right,

816
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,199
you know what I mean. Let's say it's this beautiful

817
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,920
woman who also cooks and cleans and and has a

818
00:45:58,039 --> 00:46:00,639
high income job, and you're just looking at this husband

819
00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:03,400
who's just an absolute slob and dirt bag and scumbag

820
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,840
and every other way, except he doesn't cheat on his wife. Like,

821
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,239
I don't know, Like, is that is that impressive? You know?

822
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,440
Not that not that we're going for impressive here when

823
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,239
it comes to existence. But but contrast that with the

824
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,960
with a successful man who who is good looking and

825
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,079
is uh, there's a lot of female interest in him,

826
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,320
and he is loyal to his wife, Like to me,

827
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,440
that's somehow more valuable. Like certainly from I would think

828
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,599
from the woman's perspective, right, and so from God's perspective,

829
00:46:36,639 --> 00:46:38,239
I almost kind of think the same thing, Like if

830
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:44,199
you just make these creatures who have no choice but

831
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,239
to live in harmony with you, it's it's kind of

832
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,800
it's kind of like building a robot wife, Like wouldn't

833
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,679
you rather a woman choose to love you than to

834
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:58,159
make a soulless slave. It's kind of a version of

835
00:46:58,159 --> 00:46:59,000
the free will argument.

836
00:46:59,039 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 2: I guess.

837
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,199
Speaker 1: I guess it's like, you, you know, can we really

838
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,639
choose God if there is no other choice, if there

839
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:14,000
is not chaos and disorder for us to embrace? I

840
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,039
mean what, it's kind of crazy, like you'll hear you'll

841
00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:19,840
hear atheists kind of make the claim that like that

842
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,119
go where God's slaves, and it's like, no, the God

843
00:47:22,199 --> 00:47:27,119
you want, the God who just you know, makes pops

844
00:47:27,199 --> 00:47:32,920
humans into existence and we don't have the ability to

845
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:38,239
make bad choices, that that's a slave, Like that would

846
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,280
be God making a slave. God didn't make that. And

847
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,880
now you're complaining. Now you're complaining about it again. It's

848
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,760
like the petulant teenager who crashes the car and it's like, well, well,

849
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,519
why did you even let me drive the car? You know,

850
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,719
you know what I mean, Like you can imagine, you

851
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,519
can imagine some scenario where it's like, oh my gosh,

852
00:47:56,119 --> 00:47:59,559
it's like no, I mean, you can't have it both ways,

853
00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:02,599
but you know you want freedom. This is the cost,

854
00:48:06,519 --> 00:48:08,960
not just that it's it's not that it's not.

855
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,599
Speaker 2: The world that we find ourselves in in a in

856
00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:15,679
a in a kind of banal mythological way, it's it's

857
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:19,079
not the world we find in ourselves in in the

858
00:48:19,119 --> 00:48:21,800
sense that when we analyze the manner in which the

859
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,199
world functions, we come to the we come to the

860
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,679
a conclusion. Abstractly, that's similar to the problem of the

861
00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:34,559
the of the Garden of Eden, which is that, like

862
00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:37,440
I said, I live in a world where I notice

863
00:48:37,599 --> 00:48:42,079
that things move away from their good into a breakdown,

864
00:48:43,519 --> 00:48:46,920
and that causes pain, and it causes suffering, and in

865
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:48,960
some way it is the definition of suffering. Where the

866
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,400
definition of suffering is when is when you are now

867
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,360
being caused by the outside and no longer caused by

868
00:48:55,519 --> 00:48:58,639
the purpose that you have right to suffer something is

869
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,840
to is to basically give up causality to to to externalities.

870
00:49:04,119 --> 00:49:06,480
And so it's like, that's actually how the That's like,

871
00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:10,559
that's like that's how the world works. And so okay,

872
00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:15,440
that's why. That's why I struggle to to fantasize about

873
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,119
a world where that's not the world, like of a

874
00:49:18,159 --> 00:49:24,719
world where things don't. So, so a good example, like

875
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,000
a simple how can I say It's like a simple example.

876
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:37,079
To understand this is to understand that things change. Right, So,

877
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:40,920
in order for things to change, this structure has to

878
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:42,719
be part of it. Like you can't avoid it. You know,

879
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,280
for things to be able to change, you need there

880
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:50,760
to be externalities which can affect the unity, right, so

881
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,119
the unity will adjust itself to externalities, right, the unity

882
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:57,039
will and at some point the externalities are so big

883
00:49:57,519 --> 00:50:00,880
that then you basically and I takes it over. Right.

884
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,480
So it's like I'm try let me, let me. So

885
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,199
let's say you do something a certain way, right, You're

886
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:09,639
I don't know, you make food a certain way, and

887
00:50:09,639 --> 00:50:11,320
you have a certain process that you use to make food,

888
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:12,639
and then all of a sudden you realize, oh if

889
00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:14,519
I do you know, It's like it takes me three

890
00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:16,719
hours to make food, and so that's a problem. It's

891
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,000
like it's a puzzle. And so now I change the

892
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,159
way that I make food in order to write to

893
00:50:22,159 --> 00:50:24,119
and so. But then you can imagine externalities that are

894
00:50:24,159 --> 00:50:27,719
so big, like an earthquake, and now I can't make

895
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:32,000
food anymore. And so it's like, that's that's what that's

896
00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:35,760
the that's the world that the Genesis story is describing,

897
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:40,320
and and the reality of chaos to order that the

898
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,880
world that it's describing. And so I don't see. I

899
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:49,559
don't see how we could live in another world. You're

900
00:50:49,599 --> 00:50:50,679
invited to join field.

901
00:50:51,079 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: I think we'll wrap up there, you know, is kind

902
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:56,320
of awkward and fumbling as the metaphor was. I agree,

903
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,800
I agree, I agree one hundred percent. You need you need.

904
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,039
The state of any system needs to be able to

905
00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:06,719
move up and down. It needs to be able to oscillate.

906
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,800
Otherwise it's on a system. It's just a state. You know,

907
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:16,920
it's it's static, it's incapable of being dynamic. And maybe

908
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,079
that's what existence is. And so it's our drop to

909
00:51:21,119 --> 00:51:24,079
try to trend towards the right direction, which would be

910
00:51:24,119 --> 00:51:28,000
God's will. I think that is one way of looking

911
00:51:28,039 --> 00:51:32,840
at existence. Plenty of other ways, but you know, I

912
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,519
kind of get into this a little bit in the book,

913
00:51:34,679 --> 00:51:37,880
God's I View. Search it on Amazon, think we're up

914
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,199
to like twenty three reviews and they're all five stars.

915
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,079
Please please Lord, no one go out there and be

916
00:51:45,119 --> 00:51:49,400
a jerk and ruin that. For me. It's one bright

917
00:51:49,639 --> 00:51:54,639
spot of no criticism in my life. My other book

918
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,920
has tons of one star reviews and essays written about

919
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,039
it on the shroud of turn, but I have this one,

920
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,639
you know, and I get pure review all the time

921
00:52:03,679 --> 00:52:06,800
on my research papers, and there's red ink everywhere that

922
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:12,000
you suck, grant reviewers that you suck, what are you doing?

923
00:52:13,599 --> 00:52:16,360
But there's this one isolated beacon on a hill, which

924
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,840
is my book, God's I View, with twenty three five

925
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,159
star reviews, and please don't move that for me anyway.

926
00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:24,719
In the book, we do kind of get into this

927
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,519
idea about entropy and that, you know, the order from

928
00:52:27,599 --> 00:52:33,199
chaos idea is entropy. I mean, it's a poetic description

929
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,920
of what entropy is and how you know you can't

930
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:42,280
you can't just build a system with zero entropy, otherwise

931
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,159
what is it? It's not a system. It's a state,

932
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,840
and so you need dynamism in the system, and to

933
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,760
do that, entropy needs to be able to oscillate, go

934
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,320
up and down. And so, you know, could the serpent

935
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,480
just represent this fact? And that it's all our job

936
00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:05,480
as entities capable of being influenced by our own will

937
00:53:05,559 --> 00:53:10,360
and by external wills and externalities to try to trend

938
00:53:10,519 --> 00:53:16,400
towards the optimum. You know, it's hard for me to

939
00:53:17,119 --> 00:53:20,199
imagine a world that's not like that. Like Jonathan said,

940
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,000
he can't fantasize about a world where that's not the case.

941
00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:27,760
And an atheist can say, well, surely all powerful God

942
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,320
could just do that, But I don't know. I think

943
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,320
that kind of violates the rule of non contradiction. Like

944
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,400
I you know, I don't think God can make a

945
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,440
rock so heavy that he cannot move it, right. I

946
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:43,239
think some things just are because to be anything else,

947
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:49,599
to be contradictory self contradictory. Anyway, we're playing armchair philosopher today.

948
00:53:49,639 --> 00:53:51,840
This was fun. I should probably get back to work.

949
00:53:52,119 --> 00:53:56,119
I see the emails piling up. People want things from me.

950
00:53:56,639 --> 00:53:59,960
I need to write, I need to revise, I need

951
00:54:00,159 --> 00:54:02,320
to pull all the poetry out of my research paper

952
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:07,000
so that it can get accepted somewhere official. So that's

953
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,480
what I'll be doing today. Big news, Big news. We

954
00:54:10,599 --> 00:54:14,400
do have a guest joining us later this week, a paleontologist.

955
00:54:15,199 --> 00:54:18,679
It's confirmed. Who knows. He could come listen to the

956
00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:22,280
show and decide that it's not in his career interest

957
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,760
to come speak with us, But I don't think so.

958
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:26,519
I think. I think we're going to have a great

959
00:54:26,559 --> 00:54:33,639
conversation about evolution and about where science and theology overlap,

960
00:54:33,679 --> 00:54:37,400
where they converge, where they diverge, where there is misinformation,

961
00:54:38,199 --> 00:54:43,639
where mainstream evolutionary biology gets things right, and where it

962
00:54:43,639 --> 00:54:47,000
gets things wrong. And it'll be interesting to hear his

963
00:54:47,039 --> 00:54:49,960
perspective because he is a Christian. He's a Christian, and

964
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,519
he's a paleontologist, So we'll be interesting. I'm excited. Who knows,

965
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:56,599
who knows? What we will encounter could be very cool.

966
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,639
So check that out. That will be Friday. Today is Tuesday,

967
00:55:01,679 --> 00:55:03,719
so that's a few days away. I'll probably record another

968
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,840
part three of this unless I hear from somebody that

969
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,199
you're over it all right, So we'll just keep listening

970
00:55:11,199 --> 00:55:13,760
to this video until it's done. I hope you guys

971
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,840
are doing good out there. Stay safe than God bless