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The next morning, the Freeman family 41 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:31.120 trailer was in flames and both girls were missing. While 42 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:34.800 rumors of drug debts, revenge, and police corruption abounded. In 43 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:38.199 the years that followed, the case remained unsolved and the 44 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:44.800 girls were never found. In twenty fifteen, crime writer Jax Miller, 45 00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:47.960 who had been haunted by the case, decided to travel 46 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:51.080 to Oklahoma to find out what really happened on that 47 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:55.000 winter night in nineteen ninety nine and why the story 48 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:59.319 was still simmering more than fifteen years later. What she 49 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.800 found was more than she could have ever bargained for. 50 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:07.280 Evidence of jaw dropping levels of police negligence, entire communities 51 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:12.039 ravaged by methanphetamine addiction, and a series of interconnected murders 52 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:17.000 with an ominously familiar pattern. These forgotten towns were wild, lawless, 53 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:21.000 and home to some very dark secrets. The book that 54 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.599 we're featuring this evening is Hell in the Heartland, Murder, 55 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:28.599 meth and the Case of Two Missing Girls, with my 56 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.599 special guest journalist, author, TV producer. Thank you so much 57 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:35.479 for joining us on the program today discuss your remarkable 58 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:38.439 new book. Welcome to the program, jash No. 59 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:42.439 Thank you, thanks so much. I really appreciate this. 60 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:47.960 Thank you so much for joining us right away. Let's 61 00:03:48.039 --> 00:03:51.759 talk about what brought you to the case of Ashley 62 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:55.680 Freeman and Laura Bible. How did you come to being. 63 00:03:57.919 --> 00:03:59.879 I never have a good answer for that. I I 64 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:03.759 can't remember where I first heard the story, but in 65 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:07.680 twenty fifteen I made the choice to move from fiction 66 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:11.759 to nonfiction. And I remember this case. I did a 67 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.479 Google sir, something like you know, best Friends, Trailer Fire, Prairie, 68 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:17.920 and you know, I wanted to see if anything had 69 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.079 happened with this story. And lo and behold. You know, 70 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:23.680 at that time they were actually looking for the remains 71 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.279 of the girls in the well of the convicted murderer. 72 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:29.000 And I says, wow, this is still so active fifteen 73 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:31.639 years later. You know, this is what I want to do. 74 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:35.600 So I called Laura Bible's mother, Larene Bible, and I says, hey, 75 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:38.160 I'm thinking about writing a book. And here we are, 76 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:42.040 you know, all this time later in the book's coming 77 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:42.600 out tomorrow. 78 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:47.240 It's kind of surreal, absolutely, and there's so much going 79 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:51.040 on as well, because as you there's a Kansas man, 80 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:55.720 please guilty. Just July fifteenth. This was in the newspapers 81 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:59.079 twenty twenty in Veneta, Oklahoma. And we'll get to that. 82 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:04.319 We'll get to that incredible development in this story, and 83 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:11.040 incredibly in this case. Let's talk about the particulars. Let's 84 00:05:11.079 --> 00:05:16.560 talk about all of the incredible and horrible particulars of 85 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:20.000 these heinous murders and their discovery. So take us back 86 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:26.720 to December twenty eighth, nineteen, So tell us take us back. 87 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:31.279 So it was actually the morning of December thirtieth, and 88 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:35.120 there was a trailer and this is real tucked and 89 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:40.279 this is real rural, and there's a trailer home they 90 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:44.040 found on fire. Inside they found the body of thirty 91 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.879 eight year old Kathy Freeman, her burnt body. She was 92 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:51.680 shot to death prior to the fire being started. So 93 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:55.079 it was first assume that her husband, Danny Freeman, had 94 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.759 killed her and then had taken their sixteen year old daughter, 95 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.800 Ashley Freeman, and as she's best friend Laura Bible, who 96 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:04.279 was sleeping over the ninth before it was assumed that 97 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:07.360 he had killed his wife, taken the girls and left. 98 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:11.040 Soon after, a tip came in to police saying, you know, 99 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:13.240 Danny has the girls. He's not going to give them 100 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:16.800 back until cops hand over the officer who shot his 101 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:20.439 son less than one year prior. So that was the 102 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:24.680 prominent theory of those first twenty four hours. The next day, 103 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:28.680 at daybreak, the family of the friend Laura Bible, who 104 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:31.199 was sleeping over, they go to look for clues. They 105 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:33.160 go back to the crime scene. There's no one there. 106 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:37.680 The cops are gone. This scene was released the evening before, 107 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:40.920 and within moments of arriving, they find a second body 108 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:43.920 that police failed to find, and that was their prime suspect, 109 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:47.279 Danny Freeman. So now you have these two dead parents 110 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:50.240 and these girls are missing ever since, they've never been found, 111 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:53.279 and that's the basis of this of Hell and the 112 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:54.439 Harland for the most part. 113 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.680 Now, when you arrive from Ireland and you you come 114 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:05.680 to this little place in Oklahoma and you meet Loreene Bible, 115 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:12.160 what is the first thing that you deduce from this 116 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:15.639 and and her spirit and her character, what are the 117 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:17.399 first things that you recognize? 118 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:24.120 Well, yeah, I think I think coming into it, I 119 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:26.879 was kind of expecting that grieving mother who you know, 120 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:30.680 wails and you know, plunches her fists at the heavens 121 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.560 type of woman. And she's anything, but she's a very 122 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:36.079 reserved woman. Something that that that took a lot of 123 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:40.319 getting used to coming from Ireland to Oklahoma was that 124 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.959 Midwestern stoicism that you see so often around here. Just 125 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:48.240 very still, very reserved and composed. So that took a 126 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:50.600 lot in getting used to. But there's a power in that, 127 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:53.959 there really is, because she's very forward thinking. She she 128 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:56.560 doesn't get caught up in the emotion. She doesn't get 129 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:01.560 caught up in the theories in that hypotheses. Her immediate 130 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:03.920 response is always what do I have to do next? 131 00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:05.680 What do I have to do next? And she's just 132 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:08.879 always moving forward. And I was very impressed by that. 133 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:12.439 I think she's a fascinating woman. I think she's a 134 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:14.759 powerful woman. I think she's the strongest woman I've ever met. 135 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.800 And you know, I think we could all learn something 136 00:08:17.839 --> 00:08:20.800 from people like Loreene. I think she's just amazing. 137 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:25.720 Now, you talked about the tip that police got that 138 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:31.519 they immediately assumed that Danny Freeman was the culprit in 139 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:38.000 this murder in Arson, But you say that Loreen immediately 140 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:42.240 and her husband were the people that took upon themselves 141 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:46.480 to make the search for their daughter and inextrictly became 142 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.240 involved in this case to the point where they discover 143 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.120 that Danny Freeman's in the fire as well. Now, tell 144 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:57.759 us about because this book is obviously and Loraine is 145 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:04.320 highly critical of the police reaction initially and beyond initially, 146 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:07.960 So tell us how this could have possibly happened, this 147 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:12.320 oversight and some of the things that you describe in 148 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:15.200 the book about this investigation. 149 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.480 Yeah, I mean, I think that's the big question. How 150 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:23.200 does two parents, you know, and these are nice people, 151 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:26.960 wholesome people, how do they find this body? And it's 152 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:29.240 not a pretty scene. He's burnt to death, his head's 153 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:32.279 been shot off. If you ask Loreene Bible, she'll tell 154 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:34.480 you it looks like hamburger meat. This was a gory, 155 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:38.240 horrible thing to stumble upon. And your daughter is missing. 156 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:41.039 I mean, under these circumstances, how can you even fathom 157 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.440 that people like you and I were not meant to 158 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.759 fathom stuff like this. No one is. And the big 159 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:49.759 question is how the hell did police miss this? And 160 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:53.279 that was the question that kept ringing. So from then on, 161 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:56.519 Loreen and Jay as soon as they found Danny Freeman, 162 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:58.919 they says, no, we're not giving the scene back to them. 163 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:01.919 They released it to the family. It's ours now. And 164 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:06.240 it was Loreene and Jay and Danny Freeman's step brother 165 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.240 Dwayne Vansell also who they've released seem to they were 166 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:13.240 the ones who really led this, and they had volunteers, 167 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:15.000 you know, And that's a great thing about living in 168 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:17.960 a small community, you know, they had like in the 169 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:20.240 first few days, they head up to five hundred volunteers, 170 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:22.919 people looking on horseback and the bibles were conducting the 171 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:25.639 grid searches. You know, there's even a part. A lot 172 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:27.480 of people don't know this, but they were putting down 173 00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:31.440 their own evidence markers while agents from the state sat 174 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:33.840 on the sides, and then they would put the evidence 175 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:36.200 markers down and then they would call back to the 176 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:39.559 agents to come collect it. And it was just one 177 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.039 mishap after another after another after another, and it's like, 178 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:47.559 at what point, you know, does somebody do something? And 179 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:50.360 Loreen and Jay just did everything themselves. God bless them, 180 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:53.639 and Dwayne Bansel too with that investigation those first few days. 181 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:56.360 They did everything they could and they had a lot 182 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.799 working against them, like the agent did not enter the 183 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:00.399 girls into the nci SEE like. 184 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:00.960 He should have. 185 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:05.840 There was no arson investigation. And it's one of them 186 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:09.000 stories over the years, reports go missing, this never happened, 187 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.919 this person dead, you know, it's it's a very frustrating 188 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:12.879 case in that sense. 189 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:19.039 We talked about the tip to police. Police must have 190 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:24.000 investigated that because it was it was a dangerous misinformation. 191 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.039 Bit of it misinformation. So what about that tip to police? 192 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:30.360 What do they find about that tip? 193 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.840 Well, you know, I'll just preface by saying that the 194 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:36.600 sheriff's office did not investigate. As soon as they got there, 195 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:38.159 they put their hands up and says, we have too 196 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.720 much bad blood with this family. We need to surrender 197 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:43.679 this to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation. So for 198 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:45.759 the first few hours, as this house is burning and 199 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:48.240 they're putting out the fire, the Sheriff's office is sitting there. 200 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:51.679 Even after the fire's out, they don't go inside. They 201 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:53.799 don't do investigate, They don't search for the girls. They 202 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.559 just wait. And even Loreen Bible and Duane and everyone 203 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:58.399 else is like, what the you know, what are you doing? 204 00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:02.639 Do something? And they didn't. Now this all said, the 205 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:05.080 reason that they put their hands up and surrender this 206 00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:08.879 over was because less than a year prior, in early 207 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:12.240 nineteen ninety nine, January eighth, nineteen ninety nine, Kathy and 208 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:16.279 Danny Freeman's seventeen year old son, Shane Freeman, was killed 209 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:20.840 by a local sheriff's deputy. The family thought that they 210 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:23.919 might have a case of a wrongful death suit. They 211 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:26.639 were going to file a wrongful death suit against the county. 212 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:30.799 They had one year to do so, or well, what 213 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:32.600 they believed that they had one year to do so, 214 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.440 and one week shy of that one year window closing, 215 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:39.879 they were murdered. So a lot of this, you know, 216 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:42.080 Shane Freeman is bought in a lot. I talk a 217 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:47.000 lot about Shane Freeman in the book. And yeah, so 218 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:49.639 so that was a tip was that Danny was going 219 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.960 to kidnap the girls and he wasn't giving them back 220 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:55.639 until police handed over Deputy David Hayes, who's the cop 221 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:58.919 who shot his son, and he I think he was 222 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:01.320 expecting a shootout. I think that's how the tip said. 223 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:02.879 It was that there was going to be a shootout, 224 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:04.919 like come and get me, come and get the girls 225 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:08.200 and give me him. And of course we now know, 226 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.759 you know, upon the Bible's finding Danny Freeman, that that 227 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:12.799 tip was false. 228 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.240 You also have not to backtrack so much. But this 229 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:25.960 is just so dramatic and disturbing is that when the 230 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:32.039 initial Troy Reussick comes to see Messick, it finds out 231 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:36.480 about the fire and wants to notify Loreen. How does 232 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:39.360 he go about that? Just to start off this whole 233 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:41.080 nightmare for her. 234 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.840 So that morning she was working at McDonald's. Loreene was 235 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.919 and at first she had a call from her son, Bred, 236 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.639 that older brother, and he said something like, Mom, you 237 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:55.000 know there's a fire out in Welch because his girlfriend 238 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:57.279 lived in Welsh at the time, you know, and at 239 00:13:57.279 --> 00:13:59.080 first nobody really thought that much of it. I think 240 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.440 everyone kind of imagined a small kitchen fire. Nobody knew 241 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.360 it was as severe as it was. So she hung 242 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.039 up the phone with Brad and moments later, you know, 243 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.360 Deputy Messic comes in and he says, Loreene, we got 244 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.440 to talk. And she'll tell you, like I knew from 245 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:15.519 his face it was it was serious, you know, that 246 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:19.639 the place had burnt down. From there, she actually relayed 247 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:22.519 information to Messick who there, who then related it to 248 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:27.000 the authorities back on the scene where the you know, 249 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:29.279 what the layout of the trailer was. So it's like, 250 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:33.279 according to Loreene, Danny's room is here, Ashley's room is here, 251 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:36.759 Shane's room was here, you know. And she's actually from McDonald's, uh, 252 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:39.399 you know, giving them the layout of the land, the 253 00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:44.639 layer of the land out there. So and then she 254 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:47.039 and and and then she called Jay. She she called 255 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.879 her husband Jay, uh, and then Jay picked her up 256 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:52.399 and then together they went to the crime scene. 257 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:57.600 Now when we talk about the search, this extensive search 258 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:02.519 with the five hundred volunteers. How did they endeavor to 259 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:06.039 conduct this search? What did they have any start for 260 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:10.360 that search? Did they have any leads to direct them 261 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:10.960 in this search? 262 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:16.879 So the five hundred people wasn't until about day three, 263 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.600 I believe at first. You know, it's a very small town. 264 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:23.840 Word travels very quickly, so people came, you know, wanting 265 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:25.799 to know what's up, and a lot of them came 266 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:28.159 like just like with that nosy sense, like you know, hey, 267 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.120 what's going on. People listen to their police scanners out there. 268 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.519 That's a very common thing. You'll see even the funeral 269 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:36.480 plartilests that a pretent and started handing out drinks and 270 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:38.480 sandwiches to people. And people were letting their kids run 271 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:42.279 around the crime scene like babies, babies, you know, in diapers. 272 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.480 It was a really it was a circus. And all 273 00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:47.519 the while, on that second day, you have twenty five 274 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:50.159 agents just standing on the sidelines and Lorene like, don't 275 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:54.320 you come near this, You stay put, and they did. 276 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.840 And I understand where Loreene came from. I feel I 277 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:01.039 totally feel for her why she would do that because 278 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.559 they failed to find Danny the day before. But I 279 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:07.879 also don't understand why agents let her, Why they didn't, 280 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:12.039 you know, try and investigate this properly. And it wasn't 281 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.960 just finding Danny's body. There was you know, the elite agent. 282 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:19.840 He hadn't you know, entered the girls into the NCIIC. 283 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:24.559 Loreen did that herself. They weren't planning searches that second 284 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:27.440 or third day. J Bible, the father of Laura Bible, 285 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:30.919 he called the radio station and and and and appealed 286 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.879 for volunteers, and that's how most of them came the 287 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.320 next day. And what they did was they they formed 288 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:39.399 an assembly line down the driveway and they all came 289 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.240 with these handmade sifters and they went through one clump 290 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:45.120 of ash at the time looking for bones. That's that's 291 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:47.639 pretty much what they did, like the whole time, until 292 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:51.480 every inch was covered and there was no sign of 293 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:56.159 the girls. No nobody believed the girls were in that fire. Wow. 294 00:16:57.799 --> 00:17:01.000 Now you talked about this bad blood and that's because 295 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:06.160 over the this shooting and the Sheriff's department being involved. 296 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:11.440 But is there more to is there more to them 297 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.079 not investigating like you describe them sitting around, Loreene comes 298 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.480 to this scene. They have to have the medical examiner 299 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:21.839 come so they they're sitting down. So is there a 300 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.680 sense of callousness or indifference because of that bad blood 301 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.839 and because of the character behind some of these people 302 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:35.640 in the police mind? Is there that kind of feel 303 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:36.200 to this thing? 304 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.480 I mean, I think this whole story begs the question 305 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.319 was this incompetence or was this corruption? You know, I 306 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:46.000 do talk about it because there was a history with 307 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:50.359 with the Sheriff's office corruption. It wasn't new, unfortunately, And 308 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.920 I'm not saying that they were all bad by any means. Personally, 309 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.279 I think there was one bad one. I have his 310 00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:58.599 colleagues on record saying he sold meth out of the 311 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:00.480 trunk of his car. And he was one who was 312 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.440 primarily doing the harassment against Danny Freeman. And we have this, 313 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:07.160 you know, we have this documented where the police went 314 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:09.519 back and forth and it was like shining spotlights in 315 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.799 the Freeman home in the middle of the night, following 316 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:14.079 Ashley off the school bus, like they were very you know, 317 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:18.119 just harassing, and it was mostly this one character he's 318 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:22.279 dead now, And Danny was the same way. I mean, 319 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:26.680 he was stalking the cop who shot his son. Whether 320 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.400 or not that was a justifiable shooting, that's that's still 321 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:34.400 another question, another story, if you will. But I mean, 322 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.640 it was a tit for tat for that whole year, 323 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.319 you know. And you have to remember small towns, you know, 324 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.640 most of these people know one another anyway outside the badge. 325 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:47.400 They've known each other for years. And whether or not 326 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.200 it was a callousness, whether or not they knew Danny 327 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:52.559 was there and just decided to ignore him and hope 328 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:55.400 nobody else notice, you know, all these things. If it 329 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:58.720 was a callousness or not, I don't know. I think 330 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:01.000 it's up for readers to decide, you know, what you think. 331 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.680 Because even in talking to the families, you know, the 332 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:07.480 Bibles don't dwell so much on the corruption side of 333 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:09.880 law enforcement because they believe that that will take it 334 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:12.799 the focus away from the girls. Whereas the freemens are 335 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.960 very vocal that they're going to go to their graves 336 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:17.319 believing that the cops did this, and that the cops 337 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.160 you know, had the men we now know are the 338 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:24.160 suspects that they had them do it. So there is 339 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:25.279 that great divide. 340 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:32.839 Let's get back to this partnership, this friendship, this relationship, 341 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:39.279 that you develop with Loreen. You're incredibly candid about how 342 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:44.839 much how obsessed you were with this case and your 343 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.480 original your first book there was a major success was 344 00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:55.519 Freedom's Child and the issues explored in there, your relationship 345 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.319 with Loreen, they have something to do with each other, 346 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.680 at least your book and your experiences, your personal experiences 347 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:08.640 informed you and were present in this relationship. I believe 348 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.799 from my reading, tell us a little bit about the 349 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:19.079 relationship and what major things you learned in this relationship. 350 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:23.920 You know, Loreene just threatened to throw a peach at 351 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:28.920 my forehead yesterday, like we have. We have this loving relationship. 352 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.880 I think. You know, it's not all serious. We don't 353 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:34.799 sit there and dwell over the case. It's really not 354 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:38.799 like that. It's and there are times for that, but no, 355 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:44.079 it's grown, you know, separate from her case and her 356 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.160 story and me going through this book. There was a 357 00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:50.039 lot that I went through emotionally. There were things, you know, 358 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.000 outside this case, like my mother's passing and you know, 359 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:57.599 stuff moving, stuff like this. I had my own you know, trials, 360 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.480 and she was there for them. You know, there's something 361 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.480 very motherly and very nurturing underneath that cold heart. Exterior, 362 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:08.160 and she is I really think the world of her. 363 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:09.960 I don't know she feels the same way for me, 364 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:14.079 but I do think the world of her. I look 365 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:17.559 up to her because I never met anyone like her 366 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:22.319 and checking myself and checking my own heart and seeing 367 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:24.480 the woman that I want to be. It's a lot 368 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.839 more like Loreene. And I just I was struck by her. 369 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.519 I was very struck by her. I don't know if 370 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:36.319 you've ever seen interviews with her, She's a different breed if. 371 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:42.200 You will, yes, Now, this is a for you undertake 372 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.839 this And you had no idea as you write that 373 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:48.200 this would be a four year investigation. You had did 374 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:52.200 not plan, did not have these kinds of plans for 375 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.720 this kind of extensive stay. What did you find in 376 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:01.160 this investigation? And you write about your own experiences, serious 377 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:07.960 experiences with drugs, but this community plagued by methanthetamine? Were 378 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:13.519 you surprised? And how important was the methanphetamine to this 379 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:15.119 story and this investigation? 380 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.559 So so myth was a huge aspect to this story 381 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:21.799 because it's such a huge it has such a huge 382 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.440 impact on this community. There are parts of this area 383 00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.119 that have been devastated by poverty. If you look at 384 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.799 Picture Oklahoma, which is where the girls were thoughts have 385 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:34.640 been murdered, it's where the suspects lived at the time, 386 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.839 and that's you know, it's not far from from Welch, Oklahoma. 387 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:42.079 But Picture Oklahoma was a huge lead mining town that's collapsed. 388 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:45.000 It's full of sinkholes and empty homes, and it were 389 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:46.680 you know, a lot of I mean, there's no one 390 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:48.880 there now, but back then it was making you know, 391 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:53.200 it really lended towards the mess problem that you see 392 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.480 in the area today. And for me, I'm a big 393 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:00.359 believer that nothing bad should ever be gone in vain. 394 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.519 I believe that the bad parts of the bad things 395 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:05.920 that have happened, the bad choices we make, we can 396 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:09.519 use them later on, you know, with that silver lining. 397 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:12.119 And I'm very open about my past as a drug addict. 398 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:14.799 I never did meth, but you know, I'm very open 399 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:18.119 about my own struggles with addiction, and I think that 400 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.759 that was a huge asset for me in this case. Actually, 401 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:24.519