1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:17,519 Speaker 1: This is a studio both and production. And the more 2 00:00:17,559 --> 00:00:21,160 we started to pour over all of these details, all 3 00:00:21,199 --> 00:00:25,440 of this information new and old, much like our independent 4 00:00:25,519 --> 00:00:30,879 research on Mark Oldberry, it all started to connect. And 5 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,000 that's when I left a YouTube after show to find 6 00:00:34,079 --> 00:00:48,079 multiple frantic text messages and missed calls from Kaz. I 7 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,119 need you to look at something when you are done 8 00:00:50,119 --> 00:00:54,439 with the live show. Seriously, you have to call me 9 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,960 after the live show. I may have found something. I 10 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,960 don't want to get my hopes, but I need your 11 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,680 input or I won't be able to sleep tonight. You 12 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,920 can record me so we have something to refer back to. 13 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:14,799 If this turns out to be something, call me. I 14 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,480 think I found him. 15 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,879 Speaker 2: This is true crime, bullshit. I'm your host, Josh Hallmark, 16 00:01:24,519 --> 00:01:40,799 and this is a serialized story of Israel Keys. I 17 00:01:40,879 --> 00:01:44,319 called Kaz on my drive home from the studio. The 18 00:01:44,359 --> 00:01:47,120 tone of her voice was more serious than I'm used to. 19 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:58,879 She was thoughtful and deliberate and sounded uncharacteristically nervous. Ever 20 00:01:58,959 --> 00:02:02,200 since the discovery of the Laplace cash and our receipt 21 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,239 of the Mark Oldberry files, the entire team had been 22 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,960 obsessively pouring back over the Texas timeline and both the 23 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,280 Tidwell and Old Berry cases. We were asking questions we'd 24 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,240 never asked before, seeing things we'd never seen before, and 25 00:02:18,319 --> 00:02:20,800 starting to work out some of the aspects of this 26 00:02:20,879 --> 00:02:24,759 period of Keyes's timeline that we couldn't previously make sense of. 27 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:27,599 And I could tell that it was starting to take 28 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:32,000 a toll on most of us, most of all Kaz. 29 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,439 When we first received the Old Berry files. Before I 30 00:02:37,479 --> 00:02:40,120 shared them with the rest of the group, Kas and 31 00:02:40,159 --> 00:02:43,039 I spent a day with them on our own, and 32 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:46,120 then we chatted and she said something to me she's 33 00:02:46,199 --> 00:02:50,520 never said before in our seven years of friendship. Now, 34 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,759 what you have to understand is the joke amongst the 35 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:56,719 research team is that Kaz is the wet blanket. 36 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: She can and will poke a hole in any She 37 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,360 can find the weak spots in any theory or argument. 38 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,479 She is the most judicious and cautious. She asks more 39 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:17,439 questions than she makes proclamations. With Kaz, rarely is anything 40 00:03:17,479 --> 00:03:22,080 ever absolute. That's why it was so shocking when I 41 00:03:22,159 --> 00:03:26,560 called her after our initial reads and she said to me, verbatim, 42 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:38,199 he did this. Keyes did this. I think it would 43 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,919 come as no surprise to you that we as a 44 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,159 team have a soft spot for missing people who ended 45 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,560 up in the margins, the people who tend to be 46 00:03:47,599 --> 00:03:51,080 invisible because of the circumstances in their lives that made 47 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,400 them less editorial or easier to blame for what happened 48 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,919 to them. We've seen the way that a single shitty 49 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,520 word or phrase junkie, addict, prostitute can take over an 50 00:04:02,639 --> 00:04:09,199 entire narrative, an entire investigation. In the few paragraphs you'll 51 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:12,960 find about Mark online, the only thing you'll generally read 52 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,360 about him is that he did bath salts. Maybe that 53 00:04:17,439 --> 00:04:22,319 he liked fishing. I've read multiple articles about Mark's disappearance 54 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,360 and the ensuing investigation that only mention him once or twice. 55 00:04:27,439 --> 00:04:32,600 He's a footnote in his own disappearance. But man, no 56 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,800 matter how long or short the article, they never failed 57 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,839 to miss the bath salts, which is not to say 58 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:45,040 they don't matter. I've both read and heard from people 59 00:04:45,079 --> 00:04:48,480 close to the case that the bath salts became the narrative. 60 00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:52,879 Mark used drugs. Mark went out to the swamp, took 61 00:04:52,959 --> 00:04:57,120 bath salts, got high, took off all his clothes, and 62 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:02,920 was probably eaten by an alligator. It's easy it's neat, 63 00:05:03,319 --> 00:05:08,800 it's efficient. We can move on, except that it's not neat, 64 00:05:09,959 --> 00:05:14,120 because what did the alligator return Mark's close to the 65 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,959 scene ten days later? Did the alligator eat his tent? 66 00:05:20,199 --> 00:05:23,480 It minimizes Mark down to a single thing as a 67 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:29,079 means to close his case as a cautionary tale. Don't 68 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,519 do bath salts or you'll be eaten by an alligator. 69 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,759 Not only is it lazy, but it's cruel. It's unkind, 70 00:05:40,439 --> 00:05:47,439 it's shortsighted. And while the articles never fail to mention drugs, 71 00:05:48,879 --> 00:05:53,600 they have all every single article I've read about Mark's disappearance, 72 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,160 they've all failed to mention that Mark was a father. 73 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,040 His son was only four or five when Mark disappeared, 74 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,839 and I can understand why they leave that out. It 75 00:06:04,959 --> 00:06:09,319 might humanize him. Mark had a son and a loving, 76 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:13,639 albeit frustrated family. He loved to fish and hike. He 77 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,040 had an adventurous spirit. He was so much more than 78 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,079 just a guy who did bath salts and disappeared. In fact, 79 00:06:21,199 --> 00:06:23,560 we don't even know that he had bath salts with 80 00:06:23,639 --> 00:06:26,560 him when he went camping. We don't even know that 81 00:06:26,639 --> 00:06:29,839 he planned on doing drugs that day. We just know 82 00:06:29,959 --> 00:06:35,720 that he used to do bath salts, and possibly separately 83 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:46,279 and unrelated, disappeared. While Kaz was on our own journey 84 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:48,800 with these files. The rest of us were trying to 85 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,199 make sense of the timeline and the other variables and 86 00:06:52,240 --> 00:07:00,160 coincidences that kept coming up. Maybe Mark was in the 87 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:04,519 Alito house because Key said he was very dodgy in 88 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,240 that interview, and they caught him in a lie, or 89 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,879 they didn't catch him, but he lies at one point 90 00:07:09,879 --> 00:07:12,439 because he changes his story in very short order and 91 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,959 basically says, well, yeah, I was in that house, or 92 00:07:16,959 --> 00:07:19,160 I knew that house was there like six days before 93 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,240 I burned it down. But six days before he burned 94 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,839 it down, he was in the Caribbean, So either he 95 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:31,519 went there before his cruise or immediately upon his return. 96 00:07:31,879 --> 00:07:33,839 If he went there before, maybe that is the place 97 00:07:33,839 --> 00:07:38,600 he took old Berry, which could also explain why immediately 98 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,680 after burning it down, old Berry's close show up again. 99 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,360 And you have to remember at that point, Heidi's still 100 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,120 living in suburban Dallas, so he would have to go 101 00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:50,000 back to that area. 102 00:07:50,839 --> 00:07:57,319 Speaker 3: Point and I'm looking a map, it's only about five hours, yeah, 103 00:07:57,399 --> 00:08:00,399 Provider to Alito, and which. 104 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: Is the distance from Hackensack to tupper Lake. 105 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was just thinking, Deborah Feldman. 106 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: Though, when are you thinking this would have happened? Just 107 00:08:10,839 --> 00:08:16,680 I'm thinking about the trip from Bider to Alito and 108 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:20,600 back in time for Christina if it happened at the beginning, 109 00:08:21,079 --> 00:08:21,879 I guess. 110 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:22,079 Speaker 2: So. 111 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,519 Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say Mark was most likely 112 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,399 abducted on the third, if it was keys and if 113 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,120 Christina's story is true, which I definitely believe the latter, 114 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:34,960 and I'm pretty certain on the former. 115 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:39,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Mark went out there what the first 116 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:40,279 of the second? 117 00:08:40,399 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: I forget he went out there. It's not entirely clear 118 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,639 because they it's all the timeline is all predicated on 119 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,440 he was. He had a two day hold, but they 120 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,399 don't say hours. So is that like a two business 121 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,399 day hold or is that a forty eight hour hold? 122 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,440 Because those are two entirely different things. Point and I'm 123 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:04,399 hoping that sister can shed some light on that. But 124 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:08,080 according to if we're to believe that a two day 125 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:12,039 hold means he was back free at three pm the 126 00:09:12,039 --> 00:09:16,639 following day, which seems bananas to me, then the earliest 127 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:20,519 he could have disappeared is that night, but seems more 128 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:21,600 likely the next day. 129 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: It's perfectly believable that his uncle went to find him 130 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,519 and he just was out of earshot. It was probably dark, 131 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,879 So I'm willing to believe that that, you know, it 132 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:34,200 wasn't until a day or so later. 133 00:09:34,799 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: But then the timeline is really tough because and again 134 00:09:37,879 --> 00:09:41,200 we don't know for sure if Kim went to Lafayette, 135 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,399 because she never says she went to Lafayette. She said 136 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,120 she met him in New Orleans. So where is Sarah? 137 00:09:47,279 --> 00:09:49,639 Is there enough time for him then to drive from 138 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:56,080 Vider five hours to Alito five hours? No, seven hours 139 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,559 back to Lafayette. You brought up something that like, I 140 00:09:59,639 --> 00:10:02,080 hate even indulging in this, but it does seem to 141 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,399 be a pattern that Dean Coral. 142 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,039 Speaker 4: Yes, I was going there. 143 00:10:07,879 --> 00:10:10,279 Speaker 5: Yeah, And so when I was looking to this Charlie 144 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,919 Stagg artist, I was trying to find more information about 145 00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:15,919 the address, and one of the first things that came 146 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,519 up was that Dean Coral graduated from Bider High School. 147 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,879 Speaker 3: Dean Girl is one of those serial killers that I 148 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,120 can't even read about. 149 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 5: Yeah, and he was also he targeted you know, uh, 150 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,639 men and boys, So that really did stand out to me. 151 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,919 I kept thinking, I hate to like you said, Josh, 152 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,440 I hate to go there, but this, all of these 153 00:10:36,519 --> 00:10:40,440 cases are connected, and he, you know, had his little 154 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,080 fans like Bundy and homes. 155 00:10:42,639 --> 00:10:44,639 Speaker 4: And stuff like that. You know, he was a fan 156 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:45,720 of them, so to speak. 157 00:10:45,799 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 5: So that did come up because I had no idea 158 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,600 Dean Coral lived in that area at one point in time, 159 00:10:51,639 --> 00:10:53,799 and I mean it's a small town, so it just 160 00:10:53,799 --> 00:10:54,600 seemed weird. 161 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:54,759 Speaker 3: To me too. 162 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,639 Speaker 1: Do you love the Golden Girls? Then I am so 163 00:10:59,639 --> 00:11:02,080 excited I did to tell you about The Golden Girl's 164 00:11:02,159 --> 00:11:07,960 Deep Dive Podcast, a hilarious new podcast recapping everyone's favorite sitcom, 165 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,200 The Golden Girls. 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As you 187 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,039 follow The Golden Girl's Deep Dive podcast wherever you listen 188 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:36,720 to podcasts, Keys being interested in other serial killers comes 189 00:12:36,799 --> 00:12:40,720 up just as frequently as his penchant for operating in 190 00:12:40,799 --> 00:12:45,200 the same areas as these other serial killers. It's something 191 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,240 I'd be remiss if I didn't mention, But as I 192 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,720 said in our meeting, it's not something I'm entirely prepared 193 00:12:51,759 --> 00:12:57,320 to indulge. In, but rest assured it's something we've all 194 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:05,360 noticed quite a bit. For most of that call, Kaz 195 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,240 was quiet, and I knew why. I knew what was 196 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:14,480 on her mind. I knew what she had found, and 197 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,519 I was waiting for the right time to tell the 198 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,240 rest of the team. I wanted to make sure we 199 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,480 discussed and analyzed every thought and idea, every piece of 200 00:13:23,519 --> 00:13:30,759 new information before everything changed. The Chrysler town and country 201 00:13:30,799 --> 00:13:36,759 that Laplace guy saw Keys in. There was some question 202 00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:39,039 as to whether that could have been Heidie's van, because 203 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,600 we know that she had a van at the time, 204 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,440 So we wanted to either rule that in or out, 205 00:13:44,879 --> 00:13:48,240 because you know the implications if it's not Heidi's is 206 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:52,679 that Keys somehow got a second car on this trip, 207 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:57,080 whether it was by rental or carjacking or something else. 208 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,960 I spent half the day trying to identify whether what 209 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:04,720 kind of car heid he had at the time, which 210 00:14:04,759 --> 00:14:07,440 involved me going through every member of the Church of 211 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,240 Wells facebook page, googling images of the wedding, going through 212 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,080 the Church of well site, and I could not find anything. 213 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:20,159 But I did find Heidi's address, looked it up on 214 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:25,080 Google Maps, and thank god, the Google Maps van had 215 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,759 been by in September of twenty twelve that year they 216 00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:33,039 were busy, and sure enough, there is a big red 217 00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:35,600 van parked in front of our house that's like old 218 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:42,080 and looks like, you know, I'm a impoverished, reliant upon 219 00:14:42,399 --> 00:14:48,360 the church for my welfare religious van. It looks like 220 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:50,720 someone who doesn't have a lot of money's van. And 221 00:14:50,759 --> 00:14:53,960 it is certainly not a Chrysler town and Country. It's 222 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:59,159 a Ford. So you know, we can't for certain rule 223 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,519 it out. But I would be hard pressed to believe 224 00:15:02,559 --> 00:15:07,200 that Heidi owned two cars and that one was They 225 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,600 were both vans, and one was like new and nice, 226 00:15:10,639 --> 00:15:14,720 and the other was this little beat So I think 227 00:15:14,759 --> 00:15:17,600 we can rule out that the town and Country was Heidi's. 228 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,639 Speaker 5: I just thought of something when you were saying that, though, 229 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,080 would the Church of Wells have like lent parishioners or members, 230 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,679 and even like Israel, a van or a car. 231 00:15:28,279 --> 00:15:31,559 Speaker 1: I don't think so, because the Church of Wells did 232 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,039 not even have a structure until twenty thirteen. Oh okay, 233 00:15:36,759 --> 00:15:39,399 and they were all living in double wides in the 234 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:44,240 same little neighborhood. I can send you the map. It's 235 00:15:44,279 --> 00:15:45,440 actually kind of interesting. 236 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 3: They have a name before they moved to Wells. 237 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: That's a great question, like. 238 00:15:55,559 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 3: What were they called before they moved to Wells? Because 239 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:02,559 they moved to Wells in months before Israel was arrested. 240 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,159 Speaker 1: I actually think that somewhere. I've been going through all 241 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,039 the files just doing searches on keywords, and I think 242 00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:11,559 it's somewhere. I think I saw some mention of it, 243 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:17,120 but I don't recall it. So yeah, so that begs 244 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,679 the question where did you get this car from? That 245 00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:24,879 also tells us that, depending on which trip that encounter happened, 246 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,000 we can't trust the mileage of the rental car. 247 00:16:31,039 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 3: Good point. Could do you think there would be like 248 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:37,480 some sort of local police blodder we could look at 249 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:40,039 to see if anybody any cars like that were stolen? 250 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,679 Speaker 1: I think so. You know. The tough thing is if 251 00:16:43,679 --> 00:16:51,799 it's in New Orleans metro like it's yeah, yeah, maybe Lufkin, 252 00:16:51,879 --> 00:16:54,320 maybe Viter. I want to I want to look into 253 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,120 Viter and see maybe Lafayette. But yeah, I mean those 254 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:04,559 are all rough, impoverished areas. Yes, your point, as you 255 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:09,279 probably recall the Laplace guy who we've been calling Frank, 256 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,839 aptly named after the groundhog who lives in my yard 257 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,279 and is always digging around in the ground. Frank said 258 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,640 Keys was driving a Chrysler Town and Country van when 259 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,880 he encountered him that day in the Spillway, which was 260 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,720 cause for pause because on his February trip, Keys was 261 00:17:27,799 --> 00:17:31,839 driving a Kia Soul, and on his March trip, Keys 262 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,400 infamously drove a white Ford Focus. So where did this 263 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,400 van come from? We knew that Heidi Keys drove a 264 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,920 van at the time she and her daughter slept in 265 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,960 it at the Cleeburne Mall while they were trying to 266 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,599 pick up Keys after he got stuck in the mud 267 00:17:47,279 --> 00:17:50,799 for three days, So we wondered if perhaps Keys was 268 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,359 driving Heidie's van that day, but clearly he was not, 269 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,680 which means two things. One, Keys, like Wick, he stole 270 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:03,480 or carjacked that van at some point on one of 271 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:08,240 those two trips to Texas, And two, until we know 272 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,480 during which trip Frank encountered Keys, the rental car mileage 273 00:18:13,599 --> 00:18:17,839 cannot be relied upon. We can now only use time 274 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,359 available to Keys to craft the timeline and rule him 275 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,839 in or out, and as we well know, Keys was 276 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:32,240 quite good at maximizing his time. But as we continue 277 00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:36,599 to debate these details the van Christina, when certain things 278 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:43,119 likely occurred, Kaz finally stepped in. I have a question, 279 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,160 take Christina out of the timeline. How does that change 280 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,960 the timeline for old Berry? How does that change the 281 00:18:53,039 --> 00:18:56,839 timeline for Keys? Does it make it easier for us 282 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,200 to reconcile the timeline if you take Christina out of it? 283 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,079 Or does it make it harder for us to reconcile 284 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:11,920 the timeline. Human beings have faulty memory. When I spoke 285 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,000 with Christina two years ago, it had been more than 286 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:19,440 a decade since her encounter. She could be misremembering any 287 00:19:19,519 --> 00:19:23,200 number of things, from the weather, to the day, to 288 00:19:23,279 --> 00:19:26,319 even the appearance and behavior of the man she encountered. 289 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,000 So in a scenario where she was entirely wrong and 290 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:37,319 this man wasn't Keys, would that change anything? And the 291 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:43,599 answer is no. Keys was still in the area, his 292 00:19:43,759 --> 00:19:48,079 time was still unaccounted for, He was staying in a 293 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,279 town that he had no business being in, and as 294 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,000 Toks reminded us, all Old Berry was on our radar 295 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:01,759 long before Christina came forward. Is a significant piece of 296 00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:06,400 circumstantial evidence in a case with a long list of 297 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:12,519 circumstantial evidence, a list that was growing longer by the day. 298 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,119 So while we all truly believe she did in fact 299 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,599 encounter Keys in that cemetery, maybe we were being unnecessarily 300 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,839 pedantic about her timeline in relation to Marx. And maybe 301 00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:31,319 if her memory is exactly right, and she encountered Keys 302 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,160 on the third and Mark was already missing when his 303 00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:38,200 uncle arrived on the night of the second, well maybe 304 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,799 both of those things can be true at the same time. 305 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:46,119 Because there's a theory one brought to us from Joshua 306 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,240 from somewhere in the pines that made us wonder if 307 00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:57,279 perhaps Mark wasn't in lieu of Christina. I knew where 308 00:20:57,319 --> 00:21:01,079 Kaz was going with all of this, but while important, 309 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,240 maybe the timeline wasn't the most important component in linking 310 00:21:05,319 --> 00:21:09,880 Keys to Mark, or even determining what happened to Mark. 311 00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:17,200 And that's when I left a YouTube after show to 312 00:21:17,279 --> 00:21:21,359 find multiple frantic text messages and missed calls from Kaz. 313 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,319 I need you to look at something when you are 314 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,759 done with the live show. Seriously, you have to call 315 00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:33,440 me after the live show. I may have found something. 316 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:36,920 I don't want to get my hopes up, but I 317 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:39,519 need your input or I won't be able to sleep tonight. 318 00:21:42,079 --> 00:21:44,000 You can record me so we have something to refer 319 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:48,759 back to. If this turns out to be something, call me. 320 00:21:51,160 --> 00:22:00,119 I think I found him. I think I found Mark It. 321 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,319 So we Kas and I before we even shared the 322 00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:15,160 files with you guys, were immediately struck by the obvious 323 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:21,200 reappearance of his clothes. And like I said last week, 324 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,319 even Kaz, who I've never heard say this, was like, 325 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:30,039 I believe this was Keys. So she started, you know, 326 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:37,720 doing her dough magic and started conducting searches on NamUs 327 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,799 for the unidentified persons between February two and September twenty 328 00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:46,839 sixth of this year for counties that overlapped with locations 329 00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:50,440 where Keys was confirmed to have been, starting with Laplace 330 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:55,640 Bonnie Carr and ending in Fort Worth, Texas. She consulted 331 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,400 maps of counties in both states, searched them one at 332 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,359 a time, did not specify by gender or sex, and 333 00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:07,720 was focusing on potential matches that could be male like, 334 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,119 not doing searches based on that, but going through the 335 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,079 search results based on that. Most of the Louisiana parishes 336 00:23:15,319 --> 00:23:20,200 in the area of New Orleans and Laplace had negative results. 337 00:23:20,519 --> 00:23:24,160 In Texas, she searched the following counties with the same 338 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,039 parameters Jefferson County, which is where Beaumont, Texas is, Orange County, 339 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:32,160 which is where vider is, Angelina County, which is where 340 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:38,119 Lufkin is. And of those there were only it looks 341 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:44,559 like three unidentified person's remains. So then she went into 342 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,839 Terrant County, Texas, which is where Fort Worth is, and 343 00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:51,759 that search returned thirteen results. Three were identified as female. 344 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,799 She set those aside, and as she opened up documents 345 00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:59,920 accompanying the remaining ten, she didn't find any that true 346 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,759 fit our criteria. Some were found in homeless camps, neighbors 347 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:06,640 calling for a welfare check, et cetera, et cetera. And 348 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,400 then she focused on one which is on up sixteen 349 00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:16,279 four zero three all put a link in the chat right. 350 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 4: Now, this looks a lot like him. Oh my gosh. 351 00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:21,759 I opened it up. I was like, WHOA. 352 00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 6: Before you even said any of that, I was like, 353 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:34,039 oh my gosh. 354 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: These remains, which was a skull, was discovered on February 355 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,599 thirteenth of twenty seventeen in a field that was being 356 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,759 cleared for construction in Terrean County, Texas. Workers found the 357 00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:49,480 school while clearing the land in Fort Worth. The remains 358 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,920 were described as skeletonized cranium. NamUs had reported only two 359 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,519 comparisons of missing persons had been made and ruled out, 360 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,920 and then she looked at they did a facial recognition 361 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:08,200 and she believed that it very very strongly resembled Marvel Berry. 362 00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:12,599 And then I started digging into when these remains were 363 00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:15,200 found and we found the address, which I will also 364 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,400 pop in there. And what I would ask you to 365 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,200 do is when you look it up, look at the 366 00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:27,319 Google Map's history, because there's images from around the time 367 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,519 that Keys was there, and you'll see the landscape looks 368 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,440 very different. They've built a whole subdivision there in the meantime. 369 00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:37,279 But they were able to determine that the man was 370 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,680 between the age of thirty and fifty five, and the 371 00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:47,720 remains had likely and maybe they didn't determine a date 372 00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:52,079 of death or arrange, but Mark I think was thirty 373 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,599 two at the time, so he fits into that. It 374 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,839 looks a lot like him. And the area where this 375 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,279 was found is directly in between where Heidi lived and 376 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,160 Azel and Alito. If you look at the map, the 377 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:08,079 area looks almost exactly like the Bonnie carspillway. 378 00:26:09,079 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 5: And it does say a date of death range between 379 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,519 two thousand and seven and twenty twelve. 380 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,519 Speaker 7: Oh wow, yeah, you're not kidding that. 381 00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 3: The map is a lot different now. Yeah, Like it's 382 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,279 just strange how close it looks good find? 383 00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 4: So what would be the next step? 384 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 5: Would that beginning authorm involved or just going to the 385 00:26:30,799 --> 00:26:31,839 case detective. 386 00:26:35,839 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: By that point we were already two steps ahead. We 387 00:26:39,279 --> 00:26:41,920 knew that they had DNA from the skull on file 388 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,680 because NamUs had already compared it to two other missing persons, 389 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,160 neither of whom were a match. And we were pretty 390 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,440 sure that there was probably DNA for Mark somewhere on file, 391 00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:55,799 based on both his history and mentions in the Orange 392 00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:59,359 County Sheriff's Office case files. So I reached out to 393 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,680 a friend who and forensic anthropology identification, and we chatted 394 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,720 possible avenues, which included working with NamUs and working with 395 00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:13,599 Othrom And so we've started the ball rolling on getting 396 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,759 this John Doe compared to Mark Oldberry. In the meantime, 397 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,400 the location of this skull felt pretty significant in both 398 00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:27,559 our overall investigation into Oldberry as a possible keys victim 399 00:27:28,279 --> 00:27:31,680 and the likely timeline that I had crafted over the 400 00:27:31,759 --> 00:27:40,359 last few weeks. The John Doe skull was recovered from 401 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,359 a wetland area north of the West Fork Trinity River, 402 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,839 northeast of Fort Worth, just fifteen miles from where Keys 403 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,880 was staying with Heidi in Grand Prairie, Texas. As far 404 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,920 as I can tell, the area is known as Trinity 405 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,799 Lakes and at that time was mostly a recreation area. 406 00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:06,319 Since then its slowly being replaced by subdivision housing, but 407 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,039 in twenty twelve it was a large, heavily wooded flat 408 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,000 area dotted with lakes and ponds, nestled between two interstates, 409 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,480 and littered with fishing holes and boat ramps. Precinct Line Road, 410 00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:22,839 The road closest to where the scholl was found runs 411 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:28,640 mostly through isolated floodplains and parkland, passing multiple utilities, buildings 412 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:36,119 and sheds before finally opening up to the new neighborhoods Now, 413 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:39,920 there's a lot we still don't know, like how the 414 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,759 skull separated from its body or got to where it 415 00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:47,480 was recovered. The rest of the remains could be somewhere nearby, 416 00:28:48,079 --> 00:28:51,279 the skull being moved by animals at some point, or 417 00:28:51,359 --> 00:28:54,119 the skull could have been removed prior to its arrival 418 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,400 at Precinct Line Road. If we're looking at this through 419 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,880 the lens of Israel Keys, it's very possible it could 420 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,839 have floated from the bottom of one of the many 421 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,519 surrounding lakes and then been relocated by a scavenger. But 422 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,039 quite frankly, there are many avenues by which that skull 423 00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:17,640 could have arrived to where it was found. What stands 424 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,240 out to me is the geography and how it fits 425 00:29:20,279 --> 00:29:23,200 into our proposed time line and where we know Keys 426 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,839 was during that time period. On February thirteenth, at around 427 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,920 six a m. Keyes sneaks out of Heidie's house and 428 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,880 turns his phone off. He leaves the note saying he's 429 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,680 going to bury guns and fix his windshield. As we 430 00:29:36,759 --> 00:29:40,559 discussed in the previous episode, I believe he immediately departed 431 00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:45,519 Grand Prairie for Vider, Texas to retrieve Mark's remains, potentially 432 00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:48,319 kept at the Charlie Stag House, not far from where 433 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,880 Mark disappeared. Keys then heads to the Clayborne Godly area 434 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,599 so he can bury either Mark or items used and 435 00:29:56,839 --> 00:30:00,400 or taken during mark subduction. This would be a great 436 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,160 distance and several jurisdictions away from where he abducted Mark 437 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:09,400 if he abducted Mark. But while he's there, instead of 438 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,440 burying any of these items, his car gets stuck in 439 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,680 the mud. He texts Heidi because he knows he doesn't 440 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,079 have enough time to get his car out, bury Mark's remains, 441 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,720 and destroy evidence before his flight. The next day, the 442 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:25,759 text pings off a Clayborne tower, placing him there at 443 00:30:25,799 --> 00:30:29,079 eight thirty pm, stuck in the mud. But then he's 444 00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:31,920 found by the good Samaritan who helps Keys out of 445 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,440 the mud. Keys would tell the FBI that he didn't 446 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:37,680 like Texas because the people there were nosy, and the 447 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,400 Reddit guy's wife said that he's a good guy who's 448 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,359 always looking out to help people. And remember that Key 449 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,279 said he got stuck in the mud before he did 450 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,759 anything else in the area southwest of Dallas. So Keys 451 00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:53,319 gets out of the mud and leaves the area after 452 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,240 having been seen. Based on his text to Heidi and 453 00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:59,559 his statements to the FBI, this is probably around ten 454 00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:04,640 thirty or eleven PM on February thirteenth. In the following 455 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,480 twenty four hours, Keyes has to find the Alito house, 456 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,720 which he said that he had seen and then been 457 00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:13,400 to in the days prior to the arson. He checks 458 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,279 out Stephenville, possibly to bury a trophy cash and we 459 00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:20,079 have a witness placing him there. And he goes to 460 00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:23,480 glen Rose and this time he also misses his flight. 461 00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:26,480 I believe that Mark is in the trunk of his 462 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:32,160 car this entire time. After glen Rose, Keyes returns to 463 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,279 Claiborne and finally responds to Heidi's text messages. At five 464 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,319 thirty pm on the fourteenth, He tells her for the 465 00:31:39,359 --> 00:31:42,480 first time that he's stuck in the mud in Clayburne. 466 00:31:42,759 --> 00:31:45,640 He'd previously only said that he was stuck in the mud. 467 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,119 Now he has an alibi and phone pings will back 468 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,759 up his claim that he's been there since the day before. 469 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,599 But unbeknownst to Keys, Heidi and her daughters drive to 470 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,480 Claiborne to look for him. They can't find him anywhere, 471 00:31:58,799 --> 00:32:01,160 so they sleep in their van at the Clayburne Mall. 472 00:32:01,839 --> 00:32:04,839 But like two ships passing in the night, as they 473 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,440 had to Clayburne, Keys heads to East Texas, an area 474 00:32:08,519 --> 00:32:11,640 he knows his family is about to move to. In fact, 475 00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:15,480 his sister and her fiance had moved there the day before. 476 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,000 He trolls around the area for another victim, and eventually 477 00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:24,680 comes across Jimmy Tidwell, either via Craigslist, Tidwell had posted 478 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,440 his washing machine for sale not long before he vanished, 479 00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:31,480 or at Walmart, a place Keys and Tidwell both frequented. 480 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,799 Keyes was known to patrol the Walmart and Walmart parking 481 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,880 lot late at night if he couldn't sleep, or Keys 482 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,599 encountered him along one of the many abandoned roads that 483 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,599 Tidwell would travel from work to home in the early 484 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,279 early hours of the morning, or Keys found Tidwell's isolated 485 00:32:48,319 --> 00:32:52,799 homestead in the woods of Mount Enterprise from East Texas. 486 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,839 Keyes travels back west to the Alito House, presumably where 487 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:02,079 he rapes or kills Tidwell and or assaults Mark Oldberry's remains, 488 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,440 and like with the couriers, he runs out of time 489 00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:08,599 and so he leaves the remains in the house, which 490 00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:13,440 he knows is at least temporarily vacant. He returns to Clayborne, 491 00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:16,559 turns on his phone, and realizes that Heidi has been 492 00:33:16,599 --> 00:33:19,839 there the entire time. He meets her in the parking lot, 493 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,039 where she confirms that his car is covered in mud, 494 00:33:23,519 --> 00:33:27,079 and she says that he's incredibly disheveled, He tells her 495 00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:30,160 that his credit cards were frozen false and that he 496 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,240 hasn't slept or eaten for two days true. Together, they 497 00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:39,599 caravan back to Grand Prairie, but he's left evidence behind 498 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:42,759 and so by morning he has to return to Aledo 499 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,680 to destroy it. He tells the FBI that he was 500 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,279 in the house in Aledo for a couple of hours 501 00:33:49,319 --> 00:33:52,000 before burning it down, but he won't tell them what 502 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,279 he was doing there or why he burned it, only 503 00:33:55,359 --> 00:33:59,759 saying it just needed to burn. Before setting the house 504 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:03,200 on fire, he removes the remains back into his trunk, 505 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:08,679 steals some jewelry, collects Tidwell's helmet, construction goggles, and, like 506 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,079 Samantha Kone, some of his hair, and then he sets 507 00:34:12,079 --> 00:34:16,239 the house ablaze and watches it burn, making sure that 508 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:21,159 all the evidence is destroyed. Then he uses Tidwell's hair 509 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,920 and work gear to rob the Azel bank. The drive 510 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,639 from Azel back to Grand Prairie goes directly past Precinct 511 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,880 Line Road, where he buries the remains before heading back 512 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:37,000 to Heidie's house. Or He buries the remains the night 513 00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:40,920 before the fire, before he calls Heidi late that evening 514 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,639 from the mall, but either way he still has to 515 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:48,280 return to Aledo to destroy any evidence. Per Heidi, on 516 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,119 the morning of the sixteenth, she bought Key's new airline 517 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:54,719 tickets to return to Alaska, and immediately after purchasing them, 518 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,480 Keyes left the house and didn't return until two or 519 00:34:57,519 --> 00:35:01,559 three pm. The Azel bank robbery occurred at noon and lasted, 520 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:07,119 according to newly acquired documentation, just twenty five minutes, which 521 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:11,360 means that Keys had between ninety and two hundred minutes 522 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,599 to then drive forty five minutes from Azel to Grand 523 00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:22,719 Prairie right past Precinct Line Road. Following day, on the seventeenth, 524 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,880 Keys and Sarah start heading to the Houston Airport for 525 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,840 their return flight. That night, at eleven thirty a m. 526 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,920 They stop at the Jacksonville Walmart so Keys can use 527 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,880 some of the robbery money to buy Walmart cards and 528 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,239 so he can buy the shovel, lube and air freshener. 529 00:35:39,519 --> 00:35:42,760 Presumably the air freshener is for the car, which, if 530 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,760 all this is accurate, has had human remains in it 531 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,199 for multiple days. From there, Keyes stops in Wells. According 532 00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:52,719 to his brother in law, who says that Keys and 533 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,039 Sarah stopped by for a while on their trip to 534 00:35:55,079 --> 00:35:58,480 the airport. It's unclear if Keyes leaves Sarah there for 535 00:35:58,519 --> 00:36:02,039 any period of time, but we know for a fact 536 00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:05,719 that between Wells and the Houston Airport he buried two 537 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,840 separate caches, one near the airport and one east of Wells. 538 00:36:11,679 --> 00:36:15,159 And it's also around this time that just two hours 539 00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:19,400 away southeast of Wells and en route to the airport, 540 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:24,639 Mark's belongings suddenly reappear in a highly visible area near 541 00:36:24,679 --> 00:36:37,559 where he disappeared. The hard hat, goggles, and hair that 542 00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:42,000 Keys used in the azeal robbery were never found. Jimmy 543 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:47,239 Tidwells hard hat and goggles were never found, Mark Oldberry's 544 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,239 tent and any changes of clothes that he had were 545 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,360 never recovered. Upwards of eight thousand dollars from the bank 546 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:02,440 robbery was never recovered, and yet Keyes never buried the 547 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,760 guns that he told Heidi he was setting out to 548 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,760 bury on the thirteenth, despite going to at a minimum 549 00:37:09,079 --> 00:37:15,000 two potential burial sites. So, as I asked before, what 550 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,679 was Keyes burying or trying to bury? 551 00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 8: Now? 552 00:37:21,199 --> 00:37:25,119 Speaker 1: I can't state enough that this is all theoretical, But 553 00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:28,119 when we look at the time Keyes had available and 554 00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:31,440 the places that we know he was and the places 555 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,519 we know he had to go. It works, It works 556 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:41,119 pretty perfectly, and so it's my working theory until we 557 00:37:41,199 --> 00:37:45,199 hear from the Stephenville Witness or the Godly Witness, or 558 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,039 get any more information on the Fort Worth John Doe. 559 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,639 It's a weird dichotomy to exist in to go over 560 00:37:56,679 --> 00:38:00,840 this timeline over and over again, placing Jimmy and Mark 561 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:07,119 into it like some bad math equation, while also caring 562 00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:10,159 as much as a stranger can about Jimmy and Mark, 563 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,440 to want more for both of them, while also wanting 564 00:38:14,519 --> 00:38:18,800 to solve their cases. There's a level of detachment you 565 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,800 have to have in order to fully investigate this case. 566 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,960 You have to be able to accept certain notions and 567 00:38:27,039 --> 00:38:30,679 focus more on the viability than the harsh details of 568 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:36,119 those notions that Keys potentially drove around for days with 569 00:38:36,159 --> 00:38:40,239 a human being in his trunk, and not just any 570 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:46,119 human being, but Mark Oldberry, and that Mark Oldberry is 571 00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:51,639 someone's brother, son, father, that when you're talking about these things, 572 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,840 these theories, these notions, this circumstantial evidence, you're talking about 573 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:02,119 someone someone The longer you're able to do it, the 574 00:39:02,159 --> 00:39:05,639 longer you're able to detach the harder it is when 575 00:39:05,639 --> 00:39:09,320 you finally come back for air, when you turn off 576 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:14,039 the computer, when you sit with it at night, mentally 577 00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:19,559 fretting over and composing emails to his family, and then 578 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,760 when all of that is said and done, to remember 579 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,679 that your personal stakes in this are so low that 580 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:29,840 you care as much as you can about a stranger, 581 00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:33,519 but that it's nothing compared to those who knew and 582 00:39:33,559 --> 00:39:38,320 loved him, who knew and loved him best, who have 583 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,000 spent the last decade wondering what happened, hoping he's okay, 584 00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:50,880 trying to accept that he's not. Until we get DNA results, 585 00:39:51,119 --> 00:39:55,599 nothing is conclusive. In a world where police departments and 586 00:39:55,679 --> 00:40:00,159 law enforcement agencies are overworked, underfunded, and not operated in 587 00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:04,480 a way that prioritizes cases like Marx. NamUs is available 588 00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:07,000 to the public to do this kind of work, and 589 00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:10,760 we should use it, but use it responsibly, as well 590 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,119 as report our findings responsibly like Sydney cop did with 591 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,320 Christopher Ruffe. This is an accessible way for people to 592 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,400 get involved, but it has to be done in a 593 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,599 way that is respectful of the loved ones on either side, 594 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,000 because until and unless we can determine that this John 595 00:40:32,079 --> 00:40:39,400 Doe is Mark Oldberry. Just as Mark is someone someone, 596 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,480 so is this John Doe. And in the meantime. 597 00:40:45,480 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 8: We wait. 598 00:41:19,039 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 7: Ah s off just for but that I need to 599 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:36,440 tell no that I had no common mind. I water, 600 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,119 I don't cool cold coast water. 601 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 9: At it all the futures. 602 00:41:49,559 --> 00:41:53,639 Speaker 7: All to like, that's not leaders. 603 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,760 Speaker 9: Lead and not the fanish. 604 00:42:00,599 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 7: Oh, don't take your drive rather. 605 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 4: A what a feature, hayes, I have to come. 606 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 3: From her. 607 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 7: Bans woded, do longest cook a toder be gid up gos, 608 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:40,559 readers read falls hard, do love reading, don't destructed, I'm. 609 00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 9: Needed you it up tonight and all it is s susifle, comforting, 610 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:55,960 wh respect, FROs kasuki, home up tonight All. 611 00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,119 Speaker 1: This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by by 612 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,400 Me Your Host Josh Hallmark, with additional research by Jordan Taylor, 613 00:43:04,679 --> 00:43:08,519 Kaz and Michelle Tucker, and research assistants by Shana Walensky 614 00:43:08,599 --> 00:43:12,480 and Kim Kay. This episode featured Shana Wlenski, Jordan Taylor, 615 00:43:12,559 --> 00:43:16,519 and Michelle Tooker. Resources include the Dallas Morning News. The 616 00:43:16,599 --> 00:43:20,840 episode was made possible by the following Patreon producers, Amelia Hancock, 617 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,039 Amy Basel, and Marie Cashannette el Ash Fish, Becky C, 618 00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:29,199 Benjamin Choppathon Casey, Jensen, Richardson, Christina Sissoon, Dale Exton, Drew Vipond, 619 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:33,480 Heather Horton, Wheedon, Julian Natale, Kathleen Studter, Kendall C, Lona Holiday, 620 00:43:33,559 --> 00:43:38,079 Lauren f Linley, tuscoff Manolas Bulachus, Nicole and Dennis Henry, Nicole, Gooseman, 621 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,920 Pink s, C. Shelley Brewer, Sherry D. Trista, Tuesday Woodworth, 622 00:43:42,079 --> 00:43:46,199 zach Ignottowitz, Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan M, Jordan Taylor, 623 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,679 Michael Beer, Sarah C, Shawna Harden, Spooky Express, and Lydia Fiedler. 624 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,920 Thank you to Studio Both Anne's newest Patreon supporters, Summer Lee, 625 00:43:55,079 --> 00:43:59,480 Don l, Heidi Lars, j Alexandra H, Danica M, Jillian H, 626 00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:03,320 Jennifer S, Pamela B, Devin T, Lacy, f A j 627 00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:07,079 C and p and Alyssa S. To support the investigation 628 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,000 and get AD free episodes, go to Patreon dot com 629 00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:14,639 Slash Studio both And. This episode included music by William Hellfire, 630 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:19,440 Sarah Sarage, Cherimisanov, Radical Face, Lee Roosevir, Fields of Ohio 631 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,440 and Wings for Louise, with featured music by Amanda bergman. 632 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 7: Ah some askin fun the word that time put me sir. Yes, 633 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,679 you'll have to fall from. 634 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 8: Bias in the. 635 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:23,480 Speaker 4: Waters things two, all of then your daughter. 636 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 7: Sun and must things. 637 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,039 Speaker 9: Get Really. 638 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:38,639 Speaker 7: You're in forever Chicken, all my fever, freelys. 639 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,639 Speaker 8: Sever eaving. 640 00:45:41,199 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 2: You. 641 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 8: Don't it tonight? 642 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 9: All it is sensible, comforting, swept superbot cross. 643 00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 2: It up. 644 00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:00,320 Speaker 9: It is sense when comfort it's super French faces, six 645 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:29,440 schools coss, six small snot stop stop schoo