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<v Speaker 1>You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking

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<v Speaker 1>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 1>written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK Every

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<v Speaker 1>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 1>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

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<v Speaker 1>host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening, Smidty My

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<v Speaker 1>marriage to serial killer Charles Schmid, The Pied Piper of

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<v Speaker 1>Tucson unveils an unforgettable tale of love, betrayal, and survival.

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<v Speaker 1>Diane Lynch thought she had found her prince Charming when

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<v Speaker 1>she met Charles Schmid, a charismatic and mysterious man who

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<v Speaker 1>swept her off her feet as a teenager in the

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<v Speaker 1>mid nineteen sixties. But her fairy tale quickly unraveled when

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<v Speaker 1>her husband was arrested for multiple shocking murders that captured

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<v Speaker 1>national attention. Set against the backdrop of a rapidly changing America,

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<v Speaker 1>this deeply personal memoir recounts Diane's journey from a young

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<v Speaker 1>girl in love to a woman facing unimaginable revelations. Through

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<v Speaker 1>vivid memories and unflinching honesty, Diane reveals how she navigated

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<v Speaker 1>a life overshadowed by her husband's heinous crimes while striving

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<v Speaker 1>to protect her family and find peace. Written with co

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<v Speaker 1>author Marshall Tarrell, this book offers a unique perspective on

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<v Speaker 1>one of the most infamous cases in American history, shedding

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<v Speaker 1>light on the devastating human cost of living with such

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<v Speaker 1>a dark secret. Blending gripping storytelling with heartfelt reflection, Smitty

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<v Speaker 1>captures the strength of a survivor who chose to share

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<v Speaker 1>her voice after decades of silence. Smitty is a compelling

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<v Speaker 1>and haunting story for those who seek a deeper understanding

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<v Speaker 1>of resilience in the face of unthinkable events. The book

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<v Speaker 1>that were featuring this evening is Smitty, My Marriage to

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<v Speaker 1>serial killer Charles Schmid, The Pied Piper of Tucson, with

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<v Speaker 1>my special guest author Marshall Tarrell. Welcome to the program,

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<v Speaker 1>and thank you very much for this interview. Marshall Tarrell, Thank.

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<v Speaker 2>You very much for that introduction. It's a pleasure to

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<v Speaker 2>be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much, and congratulations on this book, Smitty.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you. It was a easy well, it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>an easy book to write, but it came together pretty quickly,

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<v Speaker 2>so most books take anywhere from two to three years.

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<v Speaker 2>This one was done in about six months to a year.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell us about why you wanted to become involved in

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<v Speaker 1>this project and this story. The genesis of this book project, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>It really starts, I want to say, around two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and nine. At that time I was writing a biography

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<v Speaker 2>of the actor Steve McQueen and one of the people

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<v Speaker 2>that I interviewed was a gentleman by the name of

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<v Speaker 2>John Gilmour. And you'll hear John's name throughout this book.

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<v Speaker 2>But John was a method actor of the fifties and

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<v Speaker 2>new McQueen. And then as a result of our interview,

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<v Speaker 2>in our collaboration on that, I got to know a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit more about him. Well, he became a very

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<v Speaker 2>very well known writer and author, and one of the

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<v Speaker 2>books that he did was on Charles Schmid, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I read his book on Schmid, like I said, and

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<v Speaker 2>nine twenty ten and it was fascinating, but you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it was nothing that I wanted to pursue. And then

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<v Speaker 2>fast forward to twenty twenty two, me and two other

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<v Speaker 2>partners wanted to start a documentary company. We put together

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<v Speaker 2>a list of people and lo and behold who bubbled

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<v Speaker 2>up to the top, but Charles Schmid because we wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to focus on people in the Southwest and write about

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<v Speaker 2>subjects of the Southwest, and the Schmid case was interesting

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<v Speaker 2>because this was something. This was like the first south

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<v Speaker 2>the Southwest, first serial killer, and this was a These

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<v Speaker 2>were crimes that shattered the innocence of Tucson, Arizona. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's why we wanted to do that story. And as

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<v Speaker 2>a result of the documentary, I was introduced to his widow,

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<v Speaker 2>Diane Schmid, and as we were interviewing her afterwards, I said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Diane, you've got a book in you. This

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<v Speaker 2>is really quite an interesting book, and so she said,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm all for it. So that's how it all started.

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<v Speaker 1>Take us back to Diane Schmidt former Diane Lynch and

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<v Speaker 1>her early life in Iowa.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Diane was one of nine children and her father

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<v Speaker 2>held a series of odd jobs and they moved, I

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<v Speaker 2>believe to Arizona because one of the children had asthma,

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<v Speaker 2>and so the doctors told them that they should probably

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<v Speaker 2>move to the Southwest where the the air in the

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<v Speaker 2>climate was much drier. So Diane did so that's how

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<v Speaker 2>they ended up in Arizona.

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<v Speaker 1>You talk about their meager existence. You say, dad had

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<v Speaker 1>a series of jobs, but they even lost their home

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<v Speaker 1>at once time and then were forced to go to

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<v Speaker 1>a kuanzit hut. So tell us about their early life

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<v Speaker 1>and poverty, and what type of child was Diane early on, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>She describes herself as pretty much a dutiful kid. She was.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the second oldest child, second oldest daughter, and the

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<v Speaker 2>first daughter got married at sixteen, and so Diane was

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<v Speaker 2>left with all the chores that a mother would have,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was changing diapers, cleaning the house, doing the dishes,

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<v Speaker 2>taking on adult responsibilities at a very young age. And

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<v Speaker 2>so when she met Smitty at age fifteen, he was

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<v Speaker 2>a knight in shining armor and he was going to

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<v Speaker 2>take her away from all that.

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<v Speaker 1>You describe. While Diane describes in this book meeting this

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<v Speaker 1>young man for the first time outside of near Polo

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<v Speaker 1>Verde High School, and he was in a car, and

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<v Speaker 1>when he got out of that car, she said he

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<v Speaker 1>struck an imposing figure. Tell us about the impression that

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<v Speaker 1>he led in the relationship that ensued.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Smittye was actually a very good looking guy. I

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<v Speaker 2>remember Diane telling me specifically. You know, he cleaned up

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<v Speaker 2>pretty good. He was known for wearing pancake makeup and

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<v Speaker 2>imass scarra, and he painted a mole on his face,

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<v Speaker 2>and he put lip, he put toothpaste on his lips,

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<v Speaker 2>and had his hair in a pompadoor like Elvis Presley.

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<v Speaker 2>But beyond that, when he wasn't putting on that face,

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<v Speaker 2>he was actually a very good looking guy. He was small,

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<v Speaker 2>he was five foot four, but he was very athletic.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a high school gymnast, a state champion gymnast.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that day when she saw him, he struck again,

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<v Speaker 2>like she said, an imposing figure. And when he rolled

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<v Speaker 2>up in that sixty ford falcon that was metallic gold.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he made quite an impression.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, what was their relationship characterized by? He seemed to

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot of free time. So tell us what

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<v Speaker 1>that relationship? What did they do in their dating relationship

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<v Speaker 1>that blossomed very very quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, as you said, he had a lot of free

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<v Speaker 2>time because he had parents who gave him a three

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<v Speaker 2>hundred dollars three hundred a month dollars stipend. They owned

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<v Speaker 2>a nursing home. They also had a second home right

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<v Speaker 2>next door, and so they gave him that house. He

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much they gave him the car, and then he

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<v Speaker 2>got that three hundred dollars month stipend, which was a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of money in nineteen sixty five. The only thing

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<v Speaker 2>he had to do in return of some odd jobs

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<v Speaker 2>for his parents at the nursing home. But other than that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, what they did was they would meet every

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<v Speaker 2>day at the at the Hamburger stand, and then they

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<v Speaker 2>would go cruising a major boulevard and Tucson, and then

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<v Speaker 2>they were stopped by friend's house and play records and

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<v Speaker 2>he'd played the guitar, and it was pretty much care free.

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<v Speaker 2>You know that that moment in time in your teens

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<v Speaker 2>when when you're you feel like a grown up and

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<v Speaker 2>you've got freedom with a car, and you know you

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<v Speaker 2>don't have any responsibilities, and still you have money in

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<v Speaker 2>your pocket. So every day for her was just a

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<v Speaker 2>day of freedom away from the house and away from

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<v Speaker 2>all those household chores. So she liked that lifestyle and

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<v Speaker 2>grew accustomed to it.

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<v Speaker 1>She talks about and writes about what that relationship was

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<v Speaker 1>like and how romantic he really was, and he even Serenador.

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<v Speaker 1>You talk about did he looked like Elvis and he sang.

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<v Speaker 1>But he really did have aspirations to be a rock musician,

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<v Speaker 1>he said. And he would have flowers and candy and

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<v Speaker 1>serenaded her. And she noted that his behavior was always

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<v Speaker 1>positive and supportive and he was never any negative side

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<v Speaker 1>to anything she saw from him in their dating relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>That's correct, She said. He was nothing but a complete gentleman.

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<v Speaker 2>He would open doors for her, pull out chairs for

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<v Speaker 2>her again, a lot of flowers, serenading her with Elvis

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<v Speaker 2>Presley song, she said, are you Lonesome Tonight? Was his

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<v Speaker 2>favorite song? And you know, he was just nothing but

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<v Speaker 2>a gentleman. So she didn't see any cracks in the

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<v Speaker 2>facade whatsoever in the in the beginning of the relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, you're right that even though she was fifteen years old,

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<v Speaker 1>she had to have approval from her parents like anybody else.

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<v Speaker 1>How did her parents feel about Schmitty as he called himself,

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<v Speaker 1>And what about when she finally met his parents, Catherine

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<v Speaker 1>and Howard.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, her parents her father was a World War Two

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<v Speaker 2>veteran who was involved in Pearl who got injured in

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<v Speaker 2>Pearl Harbors. So she said that he was a very

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<v Speaker 2>very hard guy to fool and Smitty almost won him

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<v Speaker 2>over immediately, so that gives you some sort of idea

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<v Speaker 2>to his charisma. And you know, in regard to the mother,

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<v Speaker 2>he won her over as well, because she cooked the

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<v Speaker 2>food and then he would quietly slip away and then

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<v Speaker 2>help her do dishes and start a conversation with her.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, you talk about a guy who made

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<v Speaker 2>all the right moves. And then of course when they

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<v Speaker 2>were he would also help out with the little children

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<v Speaker 2>and play with them on the ground, and so so

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<v Speaker 2>not only did he woo Diane, but he wooed her parents. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>his parents were the kind of the complete opposite. The mother,

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<v Speaker 2>Catherine was what's the word I want to use. She

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<v Speaker 2>was kind of a dynamo. She was a helicopter mom,

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<v Speaker 2>and Smitty was adopted, so she'd always wanted a young boy,

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<v Speaker 2>and so from from day one she catered to him

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<v Speaker 2>and she carried that into adulthood. Now, the father, he

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<v Speaker 2>was a very very nice gentleman, but he was a

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<v Speaker 2>bit detached and mom ruled the roost. And so his

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<v Speaker 2>name was Howard, and so Howard anything that Catherine did,

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<v Speaker 2>he just kind of kept his mouth shut to keep

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<v Speaker 2>the peace. So that is the sort of. That is

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<v Speaker 2>how Smitty grew up with those two completely opposite parents.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, you're right that Diane would hang around Schmitty's place,

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<v Speaker 1>and there was a person that she was introduced to

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<v Speaker 1>early on this Paul Theodore gin or Gin, And he

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<v Speaker 1>was a childhood friend of Smitty who was staying at

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<v Speaker 1>his place and he had just been released from prison.

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<v Speaker 1>So you read about the story of what he tells

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<v Speaker 1>Diane regarding this friend, Paul Gin.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Paul, and this is a very well known story

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<v Speaker 2>in Tucson.

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<v Speaker 1>I think when.

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<v Speaker 2>Paul was thirteen or fourteen, he and his buddy decided

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<v Speaker 2>that they were going to camp out in the woods

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<v Speaker 2>or run away from home and camp out in the woods. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the second day of being in the woods kind of

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<v Speaker 2>came around and they were starting to get hungry, so

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<v Speaker 2>they had their hunting rifles with them, so they decided

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<v Speaker 2>that they would pull somebody over and rob them. And

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<v Speaker 2>so they actually they actually pulled over a man in

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<v Speaker 2>the military who was coming down from Mount Lemon. He

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<v Speaker 2>had guarded the that area. Anyway, Paul pulled out a

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<v Speaker 2>gun and put shoved it in his face, and then

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<v Speaker 2>the gun accidentally went off and then shot this gentleman

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<v Speaker 2>in the cheek and killed them. And they decide that

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to try to cover up their crime, and

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<v Speaker 2>they take the money in his wallet, they stuff him

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<v Speaker 2>in the back seat and then they roll his car

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<v Speaker 2>to the side so that nobody can see it. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, after a day or two, they were just

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<v Speaker 2>they were done. So when the police came by, they

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<v Speaker 2>held up their hands and they confessed to what they did.

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<v Speaker 2>So Paul Ginn went away for about a period of

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<v Speaker 2>five years, and so when he gets out, the first

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<v Speaker 2>person that he stays with is Charles Schmid. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>interesting that you have a murderer staying with a future

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<v Speaker 2>serial killer.

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<v Speaker 1>And what's very very interesting is right away, somehow, for

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<v Speaker 1>some reason, he is adamant that he doesn't think that

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<v Speaker 1>Smithy should be going out with this woman, Diane, saying

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<v Speaker 1>that she was too young.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct. And you know, the thing is is is it

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<v Speaker 2>is a bit shocking because for the times, it was

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<v Speaker 2>not unusual for a fifteen year old girl to date

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<v Speaker 2>a twenty two year old guy. Today we'd be shocked,

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<v Speaker 2>but back then it happened quite frequently. But yes, in

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<v Speaker 2>his mind that he felt that schmidty was too old

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<v Speaker 2>for this young girl. You know, it's a mystery as

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<v Speaker 2>to why he was so upset about it, because, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps it was a sense of self preservation. If Schmidty

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<v Speaker 2>married her, then where would he live.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, at that time, Smitty had a best friend, as

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<v Speaker 1>he called him, a person named Richard or Richie Bruns. Diane,

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<v Speaker 1>what was her impression of this Richard Bruns when she

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<v Speaker 1>had met him.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, she didn't like him because she felt that he

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<v Speaker 2>drank too much, and she felt that he was a

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<v Speaker 2>bit of a hanger on. And so Schmidty was the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of guy that would befriend younger people who were very,

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<v Speaker 2>very impressionable and didn't have much going on in their lives.

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<v Speaker 2>And in the case of Bruns, he was a juvenile

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<v Speaker 2>delinquent who had a pretty extensive record. Again, he didn't

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<v Speaker 2>want to give up Smitty, and so Diane seemed to

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<v Speaker 2>be an intrusion in all of his friends' lives.

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<v Speaker 1>You're right, just jumping ahead for a second, that the

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<v Speaker 1>author that you spoke about, John Gilmour, for his book

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<v Speaker 1>The Tucson Murders, this person had something to say about

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<v Speaker 1>what he had done in his previous criminal life. What

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<v Speaker 1>did the John Gilmour have in his book about that, Well, he.

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<v Speaker 2>Said that Bruns had broken into some homes, had taken

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<v Speaker 2>some checks from his father, you know, just typical juvenile,

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<v Speaker 2>delinquent stuff. Later on it was proven that he had

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<v Speaker 2>gone out with a young lady who broke up with

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<v Speaker 2>him and then he was stalking her. But he had

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<v Speaker 2>claimed that that Smitty was threatening her life and that

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<v Speaker 2>he was just trying to protect her because he felt

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<v Speaker 2>that Smitty was trying to kill her. So again, a

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00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.440
<v Speaker 2>lot of petty crimes. The interesting thing is he later

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<v Speaker 2>on became a respectable teacher of youth and turned his

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<v Speaker 2>life around.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you spoke about that, it was not unusual

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<v Speaker 1>to be in a relationship or get married at fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>sixteen years old at that time nineteen sixty five, but

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<v Speaker 1>they could not get legally married at She could not

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<v Speaker 1>get married at fifteen years old at that time in Tucson, Arizona.

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<v Speaker 1>So what was the other what was the alternative?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the Lordsburg, New Mexico was a place that for

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<v Speaker 2>some reason you could get allowed you were allowed to

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<v Speaker 2>get married at the age of fifteen, but that was

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<v Speaker 2>I think three hours away. Or they could get married

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<v Speaker 2>in Nogalis, Mexico, which was only an hour away. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's what they chose to do. They ended up getting

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<v Speaker 2>married in Nogalis, and that's the actual cover of the book.

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<v Speaker 2>Is there they're getting is their wedding photo just outside

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<v Speaker 2>of the Nogles court house.

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<v Speaker 1>You have in the book. The as Diane saw it,

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<v Speaker 1>a very romantic gesture picking out the rings and him proposing.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us just a little bit about that account.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, he took her to a pawn shop, and believe

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<v Speaker 2>it or not, that pawnshop is still in existence in Tucson.

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<v Speaker 2>So he took her under the guise of, hey, I

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<v Speaker 2>want to go there and get a guitar. And so

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<v Speaker 2>they go there. They they're by the counter where they

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00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:34.119
<v Speaker 2>hold all the rings, and then all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 2>he gets down and kneels down on one leg, on

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<v Speaker 2>one knee and says, will you marry me? And she

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<v Speaker 2>says yes, And so the ripe of the rings and

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<v Speaker 2>he says, well, you pick out something for you and

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<v Speaker 2>pick out something for me, And that was kind of it.

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<v Speaker 1>You talk about the write about the wedding and Catherine

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<v Speaker 1>was not too enthused, but she was a good seamstress

295
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:02.359
<v Speaker 1>and helped adjust the dress and for the wedding, and

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<v Speaker 1>Diane felt it was the it was a beautiful moment,

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<v Speaker 1>and loved the wedding completely. But there was a scene

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<v Speaker 1>right at the wedding that she writes about that she

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00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:17.960
<v Speaker 1>had heard the content of a conversation of really a

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<v Speaker 1>tense conversation at this wedding, but didn't really put it

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00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:27.079
<v Speaker 1>together for many years and many circumstances and situations later

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00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:31.920
<v Speaker 1>tell us about this, this altercation or this incident at

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00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:33.799
<v Speaker 1>their wedding evening.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, they got married during the day, and then

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00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.480
<v Speaker 2>they had a nice luncheon in Mexico, and then they

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00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.759
<v Speaker 2>come back to Catherine and Howard's house for a nice

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<v Speaker 2>reception where friends who weren't able to go to Nagaus

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00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.200
<v Speaker 2>could drop by. And one of the people that dropped

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<v Speaker 2>by was Richard Burunts, and he was heated. He couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>he couldn't believe that Schmidi got married, and so he

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00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:05.319
<v Speaker 2>pulled Smitty aside, but within Diane's earshot, and said, what

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<v Speaker 2>are you doing? You know what what about the girls?

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<v Speaker 2>And Smitty looked at Diane and smiled and was trying to,

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00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, trying to keep it, keep it cool, and said, well,

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00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.559
<v Speaker 2>what about the girls? And he said, you know the

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00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.480
<v Speaker 2>girls that we buried. And I think Diane at that time,

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00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:27.480
<v Speaker 2>again she was fifteen, couldn't really kind of comprehend what

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00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:30.920
<v Speaker 2>was going on or what was said, or if they

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00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:34.880
<v Speaker 2>were playing around or what have you. But that's what

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<v Speaker 2>she did here, you know, what about the girls that

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00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.240
<v Speaker 2>we buried? And so Schmitty then puts his arm around

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00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Bruns and walks him outside, and so she's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>left with what was that all about? But you know,

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00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:50.319
<v Speaker 2>this was her wedding night. So what she chose to

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00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:53.720
<v Speaker 2>do is ignore it, bury it, put it away. That

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00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:56.039
<v Speaker 2>was a lot easier than trying to figure out what

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00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:56.880
<v Speaker 2>was being said.

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00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.519
<v Speaker 1>The Jesus says, an eye opportunity to stop to hear

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00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:07.559
<v Speaker 1>these messages. Now, you say, and she writes that she

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00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:10.160
<v Speaker 1>just chucked it up at that time too, that Richard

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00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Bruns was unhinged, and like you say, put it away

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<v Speaker 1>for another time. But you say that. Five days later,

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00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:24.960
<v Speaker 1>she's awoken at three am and Smitty, her husband, has

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00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:28.359
<v Speaker 1>a knife to his chest and he's rambling something about

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<v Speaker 1>God punishing him.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct she wakes up, like I want to say two

337
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:36.640
<v Speaker 2>or three am, and at the foot of the bad

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00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:38.799
<v Speaker 2>he's got a butcher knife up to his chest. And

339
00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:43.240
<v Speaker 2>at first she couldn't really quite understand what she was seeing.

340
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<v Speaker 2>And finally she was startled and woke up and said

341
00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:47.599
<v Speaker 2>what are you doing? What are you doing? And he said, well, God,

342
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.640
<v Speaker 2>God's gonna punish us. She said, what are you talking about.

343
00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:53.799
<v Speaker 2>God's gonna punish us for what we did. And she says,

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00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.559
<v Speaker 2>we didn't do anything, schmitty. And then she talked him

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<v Speaker 2>out of taking the butcher knife away from his chest.

346
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:05.039
<v Speaker 2>And again, in her mind she thinks that perhaps he

347
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:08.559
<v Speaker 2>just had a nightmare or a bad dream or is sleepwalking,

348
00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:13.799
<v Speaker 2>and again kind of chooses to ignore that something is wrong.

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00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.279
<v Speaker 2>And so again, just like with the Richie Brunn situation,

350
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:21.880
<v Speaker 2>she chose to pack that away and store it away

351
00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:25.480
<v Speaker 2>and ignore it because you know, she's living this life

352
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.400
<v Speaker 2>of bliss, because they were married for seventeen days and

353
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<v Speaker 2>every day, you know, they'd wake up in the morning

354
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:35.920
<v Speaker 2>and have breakfast and sleep in. And then they had

355
00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.680
<v Speaker 2>their house and they were buying new things for the house,

356
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.400
<v Speaker 2>and every day was a new adventure. So again, in

357
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:46.440
<v Speaker 2>her fifteen year old mind, you know, it's a lot

358
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.680
<v Speaker 2>easier to ignore what's in front of her than deal

359
00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:50.319
<v Speaker 2>with reality.

360
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<v Speaker 1>Like you say, she saw nothing coming, but better and

361
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<v Speaker 1>better days each day, each romantic day spent with her

362
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:04.640
<v Speaker 1>husband in this loving environment. She was taking his bachelor

363
00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:08.359
<v Speaker 1>pad and adding a woman's touch, buying new things, like

364
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:13.240
<v Speaker 1>you say, for this place. But then on November tenth,

365
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:15.640
<v Speaker 1>you say, you write that they start off it's a

366
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<v Speaker 1>very nice day, and Smittie is outside ready to do

367
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<v Speaker 1>some yard work. In fact, he goes out in the

368
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<v Speaker 1>morning and does some and then right around lunch, and

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<v Speaker 1>right after lunch he comes in and he's disturbed. Tell

370
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<v Speaker 1>us what he's disturbed about.

371
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<v Speaker 2>Particularly well, he thinks that he sees undercover officers circling

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<v Speaker 2>the street. And the interesting thing is, I've got a

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<v Speaker 2>copy of the police report. So everything that she told

374
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<v Speaker 2>me is corroborated in the police report. And so he's

375
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.440
<v Speaker 2>outside and he walks back inside and he says, something's

376
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:53.160
<v Speaker 2>not right, and she goes, what are you talking about.

377
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<v Speaker 2>She goes, I don't know. I feel like we're being watched,

378
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.920
<v Speaker 2>And so she goes, well, who are we we being

379
00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:02.960
<v Speaker 2>watched by? And so he said nothing, and then he

380
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:05.400
<v Speaker 2>gets on the phone. We don't know who he's talking to,

381
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:08.720
<v Speaker 2>and he's telling this person on the other line, Diane,

382
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:12.440
<v Speaker 2>here's the police aer here. They're surrounding the house. And

383
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.400
<v Speaker 2>then as soon as she hears that, she hears a

384
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:17.720
<v Speaker 2>knock on the door and she opens it and there's

385
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:21.039
<v Speaker 2>five police detectives there and they say that they're there

386
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.759
<v Speaker 2>for Smitty and they have a warrant for his arrest

387
00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.559
<v Speaker 2>for murder. And so she gets the jolt of her life.

388
00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:30.519
<v Speaker 2>So they walk into the house, they tell Smitty to

389
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.400
<v Speaker 2>hang up the phone, they handcuff him, and he has

390
00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.119
<v Speaker 2>whisked away, and so she's just kind of left to

391
00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:37.680
<v Speaker 2>wonder what is going on.

392
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:42.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she writes that, Diane runs across the street to

393
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:47.119
<v Speaker 1>notify Catherine of what's happened with the police, and you

394
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:51.000
<v Speaker 1>write then, on the way to the police station, one

395
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:55.720
<v Speaker 1>of the lieutenants, the lieutenant Dupnicks, tells Smitty that he

396
00:23:55.799 --> 00:24:00.319
<v Speaker 1>had a statement from his friend, Richard Bruns. What does

397
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.079
<v Speaker 1>he say Richard Bruns has said about Smitty.

398
00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:06.279
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll get to that in a second, but here's

399
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:09.720
<v Speaker 2>what happened. So Schmidt. So when Bruns, if you recall

400
00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:12.680
<v Speaker 2>he was charged not charged but he was accused of

401
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:18.240
<v Speaker 2>stalking the young lady, and the judge sends him back

402
00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.200
<v Speaker 2>to Ohio to separate the two. And when he's in Ohio,

403
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.559
<v Speaker 2>he tells his grandmother what he and Schmidty did that,

404
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and that was that they had buried Schmitty had killed

405
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.079
<v Speaker 2>these young ladies, and that they had buried the bodies,

406
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.240
<v Speaker 2>that the skeletons or the skeleton remains. And so the

407
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:40.640
<v Speaker 2>grandmother then tells him that he needs to be call

408
00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:44.400
<v Speaker 2>police in Tucson and let them know, and so that's

409
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.720
<v Speaker 2>how the case breaks wide open. But in the car,

410
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.640
<v Speaker 2>a Dupnik tells Schmitty that Bruns has told them everything

411
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:55.799
<v Speaker 2>in hopes that you know that Schmidty will break down,

412
00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:58.799
<v Speaker 2>and Schmitty doesn't. He says, no, Bruns was the one

413
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:02.400
<v Speaker 2>who actually killed these people. And so he says, well,

414
00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.880
<v Speaker 2>I'll put you two together and you two can hash

415
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.599
<v Speaker 2>it out. And so again it's all there in the

416
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.680
<v Speaker 2>police report that duth Nick allows these two to see

417
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.000
<v Speaker 2>each other and then right away that they're accusing each

418
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:16.480
<v Speaker 2>other of this crime. And so Schmitty says, I'll say

419
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:19.799
<v Speaker 2>no more. I'll have my attorney speak in court. And

420
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:24.240
<v Speaker 2>so from that point on Smitty doesn't see another day

421
00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:24.839
<v Speaker 2>of freedom.

422
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.799
<v Speaker 1>You talk about the newsworthiness of this story, and especially

423
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:37.119
<v Speaker 1>why is because the daughters of the Fritzes, the Gretchen

424
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.720
<v Speaker 1>and Wendy Fritz, there was a renowned cardiologist in Tucson,

425
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:46.559
<v Speaker 1>doctor James Fritz, So that just added to the importance

426
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.519
<v Speaker 1>of the story. How big a story did this become?

427
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:50.440
<v Speaker 1>Very quickly?

428
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:56.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, this became an international story as it went to

429
00:25:56.279 --> 00:26:00.599
<v Speaker 2>trial because what happened was is that Life magazine was

430
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:05.200
<v Speaker 2>assigned to it and they devoted sixteen pages of its

431
00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:08.119
<v Speaker 2>and if you recall Live magazine was more of a

432
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:13.640
<v Speaker 2>photo magazine with you know, some illustrations. They devoted an

433
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:18.960
<v Speaker 2>entire sixteen pages to this case. And once everybody read

434
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.880
<v Speaker 2>that story, then then it became an international news and

435
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:25.400
<v Speaker 2>then you had you had publications in France and London,

436
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.759
<v Speaker 2>and then of course you had the La Times and

437
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:32.799
<v Speaker 2>the Arizona Republic, Playboy and News and Time Week all

438
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:37.119
<v Speaker 2>over it. And it just became this international story because

439
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:40.720
<v Speaker 2>a part of it was the idea of somebody that

440
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:44.440
<v Speaker 2>was a serial killer who just decided to kill for

441
00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:46.519
<v Speaker 2>the thrill of it. And then you also had this

442
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:48.960
<v Speaker 2>added element that there were a lot of young people

443
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.640
<v Speaker 2>around that knew either about the crime or knew that

444
00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:55.039
<v Speaker 2>Smitty was most likely involved, and they kept their mouths

445
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:58.319
<v Speaker 2>shut because the code at the time was you don't

446
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:01.160
<v Speaker 2>say anything to adults. You don't say, you don't write out,

447
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:02.279
<v Speaker 2>you don't write out your friends.

448
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.640
<v Speaker 1>You have a famous photo, and I've got to say

449
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:09.119
<v Speaker 1>right now, just I wanted to remark that you have

450
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:15.640
<v Speaker 1>a astounding collection of photos, including this famous photo of Smitty,

451
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:19.480
<v Speaker 1>Charles Smitt, stepping out of a squad car, and this

452
00:27:19.559 --> 00:27:23.039
<v Speaker 1>was in the Tucson Daily News. So I have to

453
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:27.599
<v Speaker 1>again remark what a incredible collection of photos you have

454
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:28.880
<v Speaker 1>provided in this book.

455
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you. A lot of those photos came from

456
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.119
<v Speaker 2>the police report, because they had a collection of I

457
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:38.319
<v Speaker 2>want to say, about one hundred photos, all in the

458
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.759
<v Speaker 2>glossy black and white. But that particular photo that you're

459
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:47.000
<v Speaker 2>referring to is a typical, almost like a purp walk photo,

460
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:51.319
<v Speaker 2>where then you know the police most likely call the

461
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:53.599
<v Speaker 2>newspaper and say, hey, we got this guy. We're going

462
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.279
<v Speaker 2>to bring him down to police. As soon as we

463
00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.839
<v Speaker 2>open the door, you snap that photo. And that's exactly

464
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.000
<v Speaker 2>I think what happened Schmid was taken downtown to the

465
00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Downtown station as soon as he stepped out. Now keep

466
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:08.720
<v Speaker 2>in mind he was working in the garden, so he

467
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:13.720
<v Speaker 2>was wearing like this green jumpsuit with these cowboy boots

468
00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:17.079
<v Speaker 2>stuffed with rags to make him appear taller, because he

469
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.960
<v Speaker 2>was about five foot four, and he was hot and

470
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.160
<v Speaker 2>he was sweating, and he had this pancake makeup running

471
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:25.039
<v Speaker 2>down the space, and he had this bandage on his

472
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:27.880
<v Speaker 2>nose because he kept telling people that he broke it

473
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:30.599
<v Speaker 2>in a Harley accident, and the painted en mole, so

474
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.799
<v Speaker 2>he looked pretty freakish. So this was the first image

475
00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:38.640
<v Speaker 2>that the public saw of him, and it was pretty frightening.

476
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:43.759
<v Speaker 1>You're right that now that he was all locked up

477
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:46.839
<v Speaker 1>and unavailable for any more photos for the time being,

478
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:52.640
<v Speaker 1>that Diane Schmidt became the target. And she foolishly went

479
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.400
<v Speaker 1>back to the house. Wanted to get back to the

480
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:59.319
<v Speaker 1>house that had been ransacked, but the media had swarmed

481
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.079
<v Speaker 1>the place looking for her specifically.

482
00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.640
<v Speaker 2>Right, and Schmittie told her specifically is stay out of

483
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:08.599
<v Speaker 2>the limelight because they're going to be wanting to take

484
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.119
<v Speaker 2>your picture. And the interesting thing in this in this

485
00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.880
<v Speaker 2>case was that there were now television cameras allowed in

486
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:17.680
<v Speaker 2>the courtroom. No cameras allowed in the courtroom, but once

487
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:20.599
<v Speaker 2>you stepped foot outside of the courtroom, you were fair game.

488
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:22.839
<v Speaker 2>And so he asked her not to come, but she

489
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:24.839
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be a good wife and show up, and

490
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:27.519
<v Speaker 2>sure enough they started taking her picture and then she

491
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:30.519
<v Speaker 2>became aknown entity within Tucson.

492
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:37.119
<v Speaker 1>Now we you write about the co accused, John Saunders,

493
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.400
<v Speaker 1>but again it's a little complicated. John Saunders is in

494
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:45.240
<v Speaker 1>jail as well, in solitary confinement. Part of the feature

495
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.920
<v Speaker 1>of this book, too, is the correspondence that Diane has

496
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:53.079
<v Speaker 1>with her husband and her person that she was still

497
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:57.920
<v Speaker 1>and remained in love with Charles Smith. So first explain

498
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:02.839
<v Speaker 1>John Saunders being in prison and tell us a little

499
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.519
<v Speaker 1>bit about these letters that are featured in this book.

500
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, Saunders, here's what happened. So the first killing, Smitty

501
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.920
<v Speaker 2>killed three people, Aline Roe and Gretchen and Windy Fritz.

502
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:18.960
<v Speaker 2>He killed Aline Rowe first, and that was basically a

503
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:22.279
<v Speaker 2>thrill kill. He wanted to see what it felt like

504
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.279
<v Speaker 2>to kill somebody, so he enlisted John Saunders, who was

505
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:30.279
<v Speaker 2>his buddy, and again another outcast, and then his then

506
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.920
<v Speaker 2>girlfriend Mary Ray French. Mary French lived four doors down

507
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.519
<v Speaker 2>from Aline Rowe, and he used her to lure her

508
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:39.920
<v Speaker 2>out to say, hey, we're all going on a double

509
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:44.440
<v Speaker 2>date after your mom goes to work. Aline Roe's mother

510
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:47.240
<v Speaker 2>was a night nurse, so she left around eight or

511
00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:51.279
<v Speaker 2>nine o'clock and then they lured out lurd Aline Rowe

512
00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:53.400
<v Speaker 2>to come go driving with them and go out into

513
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:57.440
<v Speaker 2>the desert and drink. And so there's two different versions

514
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.920
<v Speaker 2>of how she was killed. Saunders says that that he

515
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:04.400
<v Speaker 2>initially lured her out into the desert, tried to have

516
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.680
<v Speaker 2>sex with her, hit her over the head with the

517
00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:09.559
<v Speaker 2>rock but didn't quite kill her, and then he called

518
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:13.519
<v Speaker 2>Schmitty down and then he strangled her and then they

519
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:16.960
<v Speaker 2>buried her. That was Saunders's version, and Schmidty's version was

520
00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:19.559
<v Speaker 2>is that that Saunders hit her over the head of

521
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:22.880
<v Speaker 2>the rock and killed her and then he helped him

522
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:28.359
<v Speaker 2>bury her. So that was really never really quite but

523
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 2>the blame did. The blame went to both men because

524
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Schmitty was also convicted for that, but Saunders was convicted

525
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.640
<v Speaker 2>for that as well. To get to the correspondence, so

526
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.559
<v Speaker 2>as soon as Smitty is behind bars, he writes Diane

527
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:44.079
<v Speaker 2>almost daily, and so a lot of these letters have

528
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:48.279
<v Speaker 2>been preserved, and there's also letters that he sent to

529
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:50.799
<v Speaker 2>the warden later on when he went to jail. And

530
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:52.480
<v Speaker 2>then of course we have a lot of his original

531
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.279
<v Speaker 2>poetry in the book as well. It gives you all

532
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:59.319
<v Speaker 2>a very very personal, close up look at him and

533
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:00.799
<v Speaker 2>then what was going through his mind.

534
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:06.319
<v Speaker 1>You're right that the trial was set for February fifteenth,

535
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:11.000
<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixty six, and Diane is just a trusting and

536
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:16.880
<v Speaker 1>supportive a wife at this point, waiting for and believing

537
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:19.079
<v Speaker 1>that her husband will get out of these charges and

538
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:22.839
<v Speaker 1>return back home to her. You say, the media attention

539
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:28.640
<v Speaker 1>in this case is overwhelming, and as we described, all

540
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:35.480
<v Speaker 1>these premiere periodicals like Life and Time, magazine, Newsweek all

541
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:39.880
<v Speaker 1>were interested in this case. You talk about the response

542
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:43.880
<v Speaker 1>from Catherine and Howard. They have some means at that time,

543
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:47.519
<v Speaker 1>and they put up a retainer for an attorney five

544
00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:50.599
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars at that time. You right that that's fifty

545
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.920
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars equivalent today. Tell us about this attorney that

546
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:57.519
<v Speaker 1>they pick this attorney Tinny.

547
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:01.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, they picked a guy Namedilliam Tinney who had

548
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.319
<v Speaker 2>just come out of law school about five years previously,

549
00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:09.000
<v Speaker 2>he was more of a general practitioner attorney. I don't

550
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:12.119
<v Speaker 2>think he'd ever handled a murder case before, but it's

551
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:15.920
<v Speaker 2>pretty much the best money that they could buy at

552
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.880
<v Speaker 2>the time. So Diane felt that he was just a

553
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:24.640
<v Speaker 2>notch above a quarter pointed attorney. And so he he

554
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.519
<v Speaker 2>he was going up against a very, very experienced prosecutor

555
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:30.279
<v Speaker 2>by the name of William Shaeffer the third and so

556
00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:32.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, given.

557
00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:38.319
<v Speaker 3>How Schmidty looked and acted, and yeah, in all the

558
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:40.599
<v Speaker 3>evidents that they had, you know, they had they had

559
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:43.119
<v Speaker 3>the testimony.

560
00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Of Bruns, Saunders and French. I mean, everything was pretty

561
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:50.599
<v Speaker 2>much stacked against Schmitty. I don't know if they could

562
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:53.440
<v Speaker 2>have hired anybody better who could have gotten him off.

563
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.799
<v Speaker 2>But that's that's kind of the cards that that they

564
00:33:56.839 --> 00:33:57.400
<v Speaker 2>had to play.

565
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.759
<v Speaker 1>Let's use this as an up to need to stop

566
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:05.440
<v Speaker 1>to hear these messages. Let's talk about the trial that

567
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:09.840
<v Speaker 1>began February fifteenth, nineteen sixty six. The judge ruled that

568
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.519
<v Speaker 1>there'll be no TV cameras or photographers and the media

569
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:17.440
<v Speaker 1>was in full force. International media from around the world

570
00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:21.639
<v Speaker 1>was attending. Tell us some of the dynamics that were

571
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:28.960
<v Speaker 1>evident at this trial with prosecutor Schaeffer versus William Tinney.

572
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, Tinny had his hands full in Schmidy's case. I

573
00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.159
<v Speaker 2>mean he looked again, there was the appearance of him.

574
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:39.559
<v Speaker 2>There were a lot of stories that were already coming

575
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:43.920
<v Speaker 2>out with Life magazine. The floodgates really kind of opened,

576
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:50.039
<v Speaker 2>and so everybody in Tucson had already been tainted, I

577
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.280
<v Speaker 2>guess you could say, or they knew about Schmid. There

578
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:56.480
<v Speaker 2>wasn't anybody that didn't know about Charles Schmid, and so

579
00:34:56.920 --> 00:35:00.559
<v Speaker 2>it was really really difficult for Tinny to try and

580
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:05.760
<v Speaker 2>get a fair shake for Schmid because Tucson at that time,

581
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:09.679
<v Speaker 2>I say, had like an Old West hangover, and that

582
00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:14.519
<v Speaker 2>the justice system there when somebody committed a crime, they

583
00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:18.719
<v Speaker 2>were going to do everything that they could to put

584
00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:22.519
<v Speaker 2>this person either behind bars or put them to death.

585
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:26.760
<v Speaker 2>And so in this case, this trial only lasted eleven days,

586
00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:31.679
<v Speaker 2>and so there wasn't really much time either for Tinney

587
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:36.239
<v Speaker 2>to create a case defend a case because he was

588
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.440
<v Speaker 2>arrested Schmid. He was arrested in November and he was

589
00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:43.920
<v Speaker 2>going to try out in February, and that case only

590
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.360
<v Speaker 2>lasted eleven days, So kind of gives you an idea

591
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:51.440
<v Speaker 2>that this was everything was being done very swiftly and

592
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:52.119
<v Speaker 2>very quickly.

593
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.719
<v Speaker 1>You're right that the testimony of John Saunders, Mary Ray French,

594
00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:03.599
<v Speaker 1>and Richard Brown's was crucial to prosecuting Charles Schmidt. And

595
00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:07.440
<v Speaker 1>Charles Schmidt did not testify at his trial. William Tiney

596
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.760
<v Speaker 1>did not want to have him up on the stand

597
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:14.800
<v Speaker 1>defending himself, and the courts were by virtue of these

598
00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:21.440
<v Speaker 1>people receiving plea agreements for their testimony. Basically, the courts

599
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:26.079
<v Speaker 1>agreed and believed the accounts that they had in their

600
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:31.320
<v Speaker 1>participation in these murders, and Charles Schmidt's participation in these murders,

601
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:35.519
<v Speaker 1>which was deemed far more serious than these three defendants.

602
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:41.559
<v Speaker 2>That's correct. With their testimony and with their agreements in place,

603
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:44.880
<v Speaker 2>and combined with the fact that Schmidty did not defend himself,

604
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.840
<v Speaker 2>I would think it would be pretty easy for a

605
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:49.239
<v Speaker 2>trial to convict him.

606
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:55.239
<v Speaker 1>What was the media depiction of Charles Schmidt and this trial.

607
00:36:56.400 --> 00:37:00.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, their depiction was not only on the mark, but

608
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:04.079
<v Speaker 2>there were also rumors as well. So for example, you know,

609
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.440
<v Speaker 2>they they painted him as this this freakish guy who

610
00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:11.400
<v Speaker 2>and this was all again on account of Life magazine.

611
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:16.440
<v Speaker 2>This freakish guy that that dressed up like Elvis, that

612
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:21.119
<v Speaker 2>wore heavy pancakes, makeup, imasscra and that you know, he

613
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:24.000
<v Speaker 2>was a he was a rebel, but an older guy

614
00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:26.079
<v Speaker 2>that liked to hang out with the younger people so

615
00:37:26.119 --> 00:37:29.320
<v Speaker 2>that he could manipulate them. But there were also rumors

616
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:32.920
<v Speaker 2>of sex orgies, that he belonged to the Hell's Angels,

617
00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:36.960
<v Speaker 2>that he was a former male prostitute, and you know,

618
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:39.159
<v Speaker 2>all these sorts of things that just painted him as

619
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:42.760
<v Speaker 2>a as a bad guy. And so all these rumors

620
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:47.000
<v Speaker 2>were also started by the teenagers who wouldn't talk. So

621
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:50.760
<v Speaker 2>because the fact that that there was no that that

622
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:53.760
<v Speaker 2>there were no cameras allowed in the courtroom, a lot

623
00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:58.840
<v Speaker 2>of the reporters did their reporting outside and get their eyewitnesses.

624
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:01.719
<v Speaker 2>Were basically a lot of teams who were basically spouted

625
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.000
<v Speaker 2>off rumors. So some of the rumors were true, some

626
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:08.519
<v Speaker 2>of them were false, but everything kind of got thrown

627
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:09.400
<v Speaker 2>in there in the mix.

628
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:14.719
<v Speaker 1>Now you talk about that, we mentioned John Gilmore again,

629
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:20.079
<v Speaker 1>and Smitty had chosen John Gilmore to write a book

630
00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:25.039
<v Speaker 1>about his account about his case and his trial. And

631
00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:28.920
<v Speaker 1>you say that Gilmour was a former actor turned freelance journalist, screenwriter,

632
00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:33.400
<v Speaker 1>and author who had befriended the likes of James Dean

633
00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:34.480
<v Speaker 1>and Marilyn Monroe.

634
00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:39.519
<v Speaker 2>Gilmore was younger than most of the newsmen, so right

635
00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:43.679
<v Speaker 2>away Schmitty felt a kinship to him. He looked like

636
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:48.840
<v Speaker 2>a young Tony Curtis. And so when Gilmore walked up

637
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:51.039
<v Speaker 2>to him and said I'd like to hear your side

638
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:54.440
<v Speaker 2>of the story, Schmidty basically leaped out of his chair

639
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:56.840
<v Speaker 2>and says, I've been waiting for someone like you so

640
00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:59.960
<v Speaker 2>that i could tell my story. And so they developed

641
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:04.760
<v Speaker 2>this relationship where he would give Gilmore these letters from Diane,

642
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:08.960
<v Speaker 2>give these letters from everybody to give an insight as

643
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:12.159
<v Speaker 2>to how he was living inside of the jail, what

644
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.559
<v Speaker 2>was going through his mind. It was somebody that Schmiddy

645
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:18.760
<v Speaker 2>could say, hey, I'm innocent. So he felt like with

646
00:39:18.840 --> 00:39:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Gilmore he had at least one person on his side.

647
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:26.320
<v Speaker 1>You're right that John Gilmore sat with Diane at the

648
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:30.519
<v Speaker 1>trial itself as well. Tell us about how long the

649
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:33.960
<v Speaker 1>jury deliberated for you say the trial lasted eleven days.

650
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:39.079
<v Speaker 1>Only tell us about the jury deliberations and the verdict, Well,

651
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:40.000
<v Speaker 1>memory serves me.

652
00:39:40.039 --> 00:39:44.480
<v Speaker 2>I think the jury deliberation was only three hours and

653
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.920
<v Speaker 2>it came right near the end of the day, and

654
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:52.280
<v Speaker 2>so they found him guilty of first yary murder and

655
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:56.760
<v Speaker 2>the sentence was death. And that death sentence, I believe

656
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:00.840
<v Speaker 2>was like a month away, so you know, didn't today's society,

657
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:03.400
<v Speaker 2>it's you know, definitely is at least a good twenty

658
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.599
<v Speaker 2>to thirty years away. But back then it was very,

659
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:07.760
<v Speaker 2>very swift.

660
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:11.960
<v Speaker 1>There is a second trial as well, and that is

661
00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.519
<v Speaker 1>for Allen Rose's death.

662
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Even though Aline Rose was the first one that was

663
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:24.880
<v Speaker 2>killed the discovery of Wendy and Gretchen Fritz because it

664
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:29.320
<v Speaker 2>was first because Bruns was able to lead them because

665
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:31.599
<v Speaker 2>he was because he was involved in the burial of

666
00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:36.119
<v Speaker 2>their dead bodies, so he was able to lead police

667
00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:39.719
<v Speaker 2>to them right away. Now, he I think he had

668
00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:43.559
<v Speaker 2>either heard or that he had heard Smitty confess to

669
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:45.800
<v Speaker 2>Aline Roe, but he didn't know where she was. So

670
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:50.960
<v Speaker 2>that's why that case was prosecuted first, and then Schmitty

671
00:40:51.079 --> 00:40:52.840
<v Speaker 2>was prosecuted for Alien Roe second.

672
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:59.320
<v Speaker 1>So at some point after this conviction, Charles Schmitt says

673
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.880
<v Speaker 1>to authority that he'd like to lead them to Allen

674
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:07.039
<v Speaker 1>Rose's body, and also at that time for Diane, it's

675
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:11.119
<v Speaker 1>a crucial turning point because for many, many years it

676
00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:16.840
<v Speaker 1>was incredible denial and just support of her husband. But

677
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:24.000
<v Speaker 1>the facts that were undeniable were released in Life magazine.

678
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:27.519
<v Speaker 1>But also she heard at trial, so there was no

679
00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:30.840
<v Speaker 1>more denial in terms of the culpability of her husband,

680
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:31.559
<v Speaker 1>Charles Schmidt.

681
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:36.320
<v Speaker 2>That's correct. And in the second trial he was actually

682
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:40.039
<v Speaker 2>defended by E. F. Lee Bailey, and Bailey was fresh

683
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:43.280
<v Speaker 2>off of the Shepherd case and thought that he could

684
00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:47.440
<v Speaker 2>get some more capital from defending Schmidty because now that

685
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Lack magazine had covered him, Bailey thought that he could

686
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.639
<v Speaker 2>apply the same sort of magic to the Shepherd cases

687
00:41:54.679 --> 00:41:57.039
<v Speaker 2>he did to schmid But what he found out real

688
00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:01.599
<v Speaker 2>quickly was that there was a certain a justice system

689
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:05.079
<v Speaker 2>and Tucson that just didn't take very well to outsiders.

690
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:08.719
<v Speaker 2>So once he realized that he wasn't going to do

691
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:12.000
<v Speaker 2>really much of anything for Schmidty, he tried to talk

692
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:17.239
<v Speaker 2>him into taking a plea deal, and basically that's what

693
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:21.320
<v Speaker 2>Schmidty did, And a day after Schmitty took the plea deal,

694
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.079
<v Speaker 2>he decided that he was going to show authorities of

695
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.599
<v Speaker 2>the body where they could find Ali Rowe, and that's

696
00:42:26.639 --> 00:42:27.639
<v Speaker 2>exactly what happened.

697
00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:34.199
<v Speaker 1>Now you write about Mary's testimony, Mary ray French's testimony.

698
00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:38.000
<v Speaker 1>So again we've had bits and pieces from you about

699
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:42.199
<v Speaker 1>what exactly happened. What was her version of what happened

700
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:44.000
<v Speaker 1>in Schmitty's involvement.

701
00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:51.079
<v Speaker 2>Well, in regard to when Aline Rowe was killed again,

702
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.559
<v Speaker 2>she when they brought her out, They brought everybody out

703
00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:59.440
<v Speaker 2>to the desert. The car stops and then Saunders takes

704
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:04.639
<v Speaker 2>alien Roe out into the desert. Well, well, Mary and

705
00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Schmitty stay in the car and then and then she

706
00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:12.400
<v Speaker 2>hears a screen. She knows what's happening because they talked

707
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:16.039
<v Speaker 2>about it. And then Schmitty runs out and then finds

708
00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Aline Rowe with her head hit by a rock. And

709
00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:24.599
<v Speaker 2>so what she claims is that Schmitty comes back to

710
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:28.280
<v Speaker 2>the car and says, we killed her, and then he

711
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:30.440
<v Speaker 2>starts breathing heavily, and then he kisses her on the

712
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:33.519
<v Speaker 2>lips and it was sort of a turn on for him.

713
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:39.000
<v Speaker 2>So that's what she had testified to. So again it's

714
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:42.840
<v Speaker 2>it's a little bit money. Did Schmitty actually kill her

715
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:47.440
<v Speaker 2>or was he involved in the burying of her body.

716
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:50.079
<v Speaker 2>I personally believe that it was Schmitty who did it.

717
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:54.960
<v Speaker 2>I think that my personal belief is that Saunders hit

718
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:56.960
<v Speaker 2>her over the head of the rock but didn't kill her,

719
00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:00.159
<v Speaker 2>and then Schmitty then walked out there and strangled her

720
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:03.880
<v Speaker 2>and together they buried her. And I believe that that

721
00:44:04.719 --> 00:44:07.480
<v Speaker 2>kind of corroborates with what Mary French said in court.

722
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:12.320
<v Speaker 1>Now, what problem the audience doesn't know and we haven't explained,

723
00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:17.400
<v Speaker 1>is how is it that Gretchen Fritz and Wendy Fritz

724
00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:20.440
<v Speaker 1>get involved in all of this murder.

725
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:26.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, Gretchen and Schmidty start seeing each other in I

726
00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:30.920
<v Speaker 2>want to say, July of sixty five, and they have

727
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:36.320
<v Speaker 2>a very tempestuous relationship, and Schmidty claims that she was

728
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.519
<v Speaker 2>so jealous that she'd call him night and day, and

729
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:42.960
<v Speaker 2>that to get her off, to get her off his back,

730
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:46.079
<v Speaker 2>he decided that he would give her a piece of

731
00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:48.719
<v Speaker 2>information that will allow her to trust him. And he

732
00:44:48.760 --> 00:44:52.920
<v Speaker 2>claims that he told Gretchen about Ali Rowe and actually

733
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:56.800
<v Speaker 2>took her to the body, and that for a while

734
00:44:56.920 --> 00:45:00.079
<v Speaker 2>it bonded these two. But then he claims that but

735
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:03.920
<v Speaker 2>she took that information and used it against them. And

736
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:08.039
<v Speaker 2>would use it and threaten him, and so by the

737
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:12.679
<v Speaker 2>time that their relationship had reached its end, she was

738
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:15.119
<v Speaker 2>out one night with her sister Gretchen, and they both

739
00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:19.079
<v Speaker 2>went to see, ironically, an eldest Presley movie at the

740
00:45:19.159 --> 00:45:22.719
<v Speaker 2>driving called Ticklemy and at the concession stand, she bumped

741
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.440
<v Speaker 2>into somebody who said she heard a rumor that Schmidty

742
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:29.800
<v Speaker 2>was hosting a party. And so Gretchen had called Schmitty

743
00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:33.239
<v Speaker 2>either from the driver or PayPal, and said I'm coming over,

744
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:35.440
<v Speaker 2>and he said, no, don't come over. So she did

745
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:41.119
<v Speaker 2>come over with her sister Wendy, and so Gretchen and

746
00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:46.199
<v Speaker 2>Schmitty have an argument in his kitchen and he pulls

747
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:50.000
<v Speaker 2>out an electrical cord for a guitar string and strangles her.

748
00:45:50.480 --> 00:45:53.719
<v Speaker 2>And then Wendy is watching TV doesn't even realize what's

749
00:45:53.719 --> 00:45:55.639
<v Speaker 2>going on. So he has to make a decision what

750
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:57.920
<v Speaker 2>he's going to do, and he decides that he's going

751
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:01.400
<v Speaker 2>to kill young Wendy, who thirteen at the time, and

752
00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:04.239
<v Speaker 2>so he kills both of them and loads both of

753
00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:06.119
<v Speaker 2>them in his trunk and then takes them out into

754
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:08.599
<v Speaker 2>the desert and then dumps their bodies.

755
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:14.039
<v Speaker 1>Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear

756
00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:20.440
<v Speaker 1>these messages. Now let's get back to Charles Schmidt is

757
00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:25.000
<v Speaker 1>sent to prison. He has a death penalty, but things

758
00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:32.639
<v Speaker 1>are moving towards state and also federally federal government for

759
00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:36.239
<v Speaker 1>banishing the death penalty. Tell us about that progress and

760
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:39.639
<v Speaker 1>how it affects Charles Smith's sentence and case.

761
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:44.760
<v Speaker 2>In Schmidt's case, he kept getting delays, and then we

762
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:47.280
<v Speaker 2>get to the point of nineteen seventy two where the

763
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:51.239
<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court rules of the death penalty is cruel and unjust,

764
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:54.559
<v Speaker 2>and it was the same it was the same ruling

765
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:57.519
<v Speaker 2>that allowed the Manson family not to be sentenced to death.

766
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:02.719
<v Speaker 2>So Schmidty was on death row and then released then

767
00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:06.719
<v Speaker 2>into general population as a result of this, and as

768
00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:09.320
<v Speaker 2>it turned out through my research, I found that that

769
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.840
<v Speaker 2>being on death row was a lot easier for prisoners

770
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:15.400
<v Speaker 2>than general population because they only had to deal with

771
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:17.760
<v Speaker 2>a limited amount of people, and they have a lot

772
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:20.800
<v Speaker 2>of they had a lot more freedoms. And then Schmidt,

773
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:24.880
<v Speaker 2>he actually didn't didn't necessarily want to be released in

774
00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:27.480
<v Speaker 2>the general population, so that caused quite a bit of

775
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.639
<v Speaker 2>problems for him, because you know, he had killed three

776
00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:32.519
<v Speaker 2>young girls and that didn't go over so well with

777
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:33.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the prisoners.

778
00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:38.159
<v Speaker 1>So he's not content to He doesn't like the idea

779
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:40.960
<v Speaker 1>of spending his life in the rest of his life

780
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:43.159
<v Speaker 1>in prison. He didn't like the idea of the death penalty,

781
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:46.039
<v Speaker 1>doesn't like the idea of life in prison. What does

782
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:48.039
<v Speaker 1>he have plans to do? And what does he do?

783
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:51.239
<v Speaker 2>The first plan he makes is with a guy named

784
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Robert Smith. They make a death pact. They decide that

785
00:47:55.480 --> 00:48:01.199
<v Speaker 2>the death penalty is lifted, they're gonna cut each other

786
00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:04.840
<v Speaker 2>into bits with hacksauce and that's and so Schmidt had

787
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.679
<v Speaker 2>a hacksaw on his leg and when the guard just

788
00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:11.480
<v Speaker 2>happened to be walking by and saw Robert Smith saw

789
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:15.880
<v Speaker 2>him into Smitty's leg and caught that before it actually happened,

790
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:19.320
<v Speaker 2>but Schmitty had about thirty stitches in his leg. And

791
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:23.719
<v Speaker 2>then when that didn't work, then Schmidty decided two attempts

792
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:26.599
<v Speaker 2>to break out of prison. Second time around, he was

793
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:29.800
<v Speaker 2>successful and made a clean break for a couple of days.

794
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:33.679
<v Speaker 2>And actually that's when he sees Diane in person for

795
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.760
<v Speaker 2>the last time. He asked her to go to Mexico

796
00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:38.760
<v Speaker 2>and she said, I can't. I'm married now and I

797
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:42.239
<v Speaker 2>have kids. But she said take my car, and he said,

798
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:44.960
<v Speaker 2>I can't take a car, and you have children now,

799
00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:48.480
<v Speaker 2>And so he decides that he is going to hop

800
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:52.079
<v Speaker 2>on a freight train bound in Mexico. And then he

801
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:55.599
<v Speaker 2>actually ends up going through the Tucson train station and

802
00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.599
<v Speaker 2>one of the cops that that used to was one

803
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:03.360
<v Speaker 2>of his Bibles and gymnastics spotted him and arrests him,

804
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:05.920
<v Speaker 2>and then he goes back to prison.

805
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:12.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's very interesting the description that Diane has for

806
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:18.280
<v Speaker 1>you can't say it's not one of the most romantic

807
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:21.760
<v Speaker 1>things you might have read. You know, this prisoner on

808
00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:27.000
<v Speaker 1>the run but risks everything to meet up with his

809
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:30.920
<v Speaker 1>loved one one more time. They make love, they spend

810
00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:35.480
<v Speaker 1>time together, and then selfishly he says that he lets

811
00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:37.639
<v Speaker 1>her go and understands what she has to do.

812
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:41.239
<v Speaker 2>Right. He was like that with her. You know, he

813
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:43.800
<v Speaker 2>could be a monster in his life regarding all these

814
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:48.239
<v Speaker 2>other people, but with Diane, he was very tender and caring.

815
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:50.920
<v Speaker 2>She seemed to be the one pure thing in his life.

816
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:53.480
<v Speaker 2>So that was that's what always struck me about their relationship.

817
00:49:55.920 --> 00:50:01.400
<v Speaker 1>With this second escape and his capture, it that Charles

818
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:05.239
<v Speaker 1>had a change of mind, a change of heart, and

819
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.519
<v Speaker 1>started to do things differently. And there was a change

820
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:14.760
<v Speaker 1>in leadership or of the warden at this prison that

821
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:17.800
<v Speaker 1>helped Charles make this change of heart.

822
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, there are two things. He started taking poetry classes

823
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:24.760
<v Speaker 2>under a professor, well known professor by the name of

824
00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:31.360
<v Speaker 2>Robert Shelton. Shelton claims that poetry had tenderized his heart

825
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:35.480
<v Speaker 2>and made him start thinking differently and made him start

826
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:39.880
<v Speaker 2>looking at what he did regarding these crimes and face

827
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:43.320
<v Speaker 2>face adulthood for the first time. And then this new

828
00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:45.679
<v Speaker 2>warden that you mentioned had come in and he had

829
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:50.039
<v Speaker 2>a tough reputation. But Schmidty started a letter writing campaign,

830
00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:51.599
<v Speaker 2>and we've got a lot of those letters in the

831
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:54.480
<v Speaker 2>book saying give me one chance, give me one chance,

832
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:58.880
<v Speaker 2>make me an outside trustee, which means that he had

833
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:02.000
<v Speaker 2>certain privileges that he didn't have to live in the

834
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:06.679
<v Speaker 2>prison population. He could live in dormitory style living quarters

835
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:11.800
<v Speaker 2>inside the grounds, but not within the general population. And

836
00:51:11.840 --> 00:51:16.400
<v Speaker 2>it was a really, really choice position. And after eighteen

837
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:19.840
<v Speaker 2>months after he broke out, he was able to convince

838
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:24.320
<v Speaker 2>this warden to give him outside trustee status, which meant

839
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:27.239
<v Speaker 2>he could get a job and one of his jobs

840
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:31.800
<v Speaker 2>was to tend to the animals, the dog trackers, and

841
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.840
<v Speaker 2>he could actually take these dogs outside of the prison

842
00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:38.760
<v Speaker 2>walls to a veterinarian about ten miles away. So there

843
00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:41.360
<v Speaker 2>were a lot of people that would have been horrified

844
00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:43.599
<v Speaker 2>in the state of Arizona to know that Charles Schmid

845
00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.639
<v Speaker 2>could go freely to and from the prison in this

846
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:49.840
<v Speaker 2>car to take these animals to the vet. And on

847
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:53.079
<v Speaker 2>his way to the vet, his mother moved right near

848
00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:55.239
<v Speaker 2>the prison, and he could drive by her house and

849
00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:58.400
<v Speaker 2>wave to her and see her. So a lot of

850
00:51:58.400 --> 00:51:59.559
<v Speaker 2>people don't know this.

851
00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:06.760
<v Speaker 1>You read about the visiting that Diane did sometimes her sister,

852
00:52:07.159 --> 00:52:11.480
<v Speaker 1>but also she also went initially with Catherine and Howard

853
00:52:11.719 --> 00:52:15.039
<v Speaker 1>to visit, so they were regularly He was regularly visited

854
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:18.800
<v Speaker 1>by family as well as Diane in his imprisonment for

855
00:52:18.920 --> 00:52:19.400
<v Speaker 1>most of it.

856
00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:24.039
<v Speaker 2>That's correct. In the beginning, Diane writes that they could

857
00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:27.920
<v Speaker 2>actually hug and touch each other and freely converse with

858
00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:30.719
<v Speaker 2>each other. And then after a couple of years, when

859
00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:33.159
<v Speaker 2>I think that there was there was a drug issue there,

860
00:52:33.320 --> 00:52:35.280
<v Speaker 2>and so in order to cut off the drug pipeline,

861
00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:38.239
<v Speaker 2>they put up class partition. They couldn't touch each other,

862
00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:41.960
<v Speaker 2>but they could talk. But you know, for her, she

863
00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:44.519
<v Speaker 2>lived for those moments, so that that was fine with her.

864
00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:46.800
<v Speaker 2>And of course for Schmitty, he got to see his

865
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:50.880
<v Speaker 2>parents and Diane, so he had a support system while

866
00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:51.559
<v Speaker 2>he was in prison.

867
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:57.199
<v Speaker 1>They also talk about Smitty talking to a journalist named

868
00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:01.199
<v Speaker 1>ken Burton about the conditions and prison, but also just

869
00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:04.880
<v Speaker 1>and just a general correspondence with this journalist.

870
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Correct. You know, schmidy befriended a lot of journals, but

871
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:11.320
<v Speaker 2>for some reason he and ken Burton hit it off.

872
00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:14.039
<v Speaker 2>And so Burton had been asking him to write a

873
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:16.559
<v Speaker 2>piece about what it was like, what it was like

874
00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:21.039
<v Speaker 2>for life behind bars, and so he asked Smith if

875
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:23.079
<v Speaker 2>he could write it, and Smith said no, I'll tell

876
00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:24.719
<v Speaker 2>you what I'll do is I'll write it and then

877
00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:29.320
<v Speaker 2>you edit it. And so, for whatever reasons, Burton held

878
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:33.159
<v Speaker 2>on to these writings for like three or four years

879
00:53:33.239 --> 00:53:38.880
<v Speaker 2>after Schmid passed away, and then they were released and

880
00:53:38.920 --> 00:53:43.920
<v Speaker 2>then it gave everybody this insight into what Schmid had

881
00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:45.760
<v Speaker 2>endured behind bars.

882
00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:52.639
<v Speaker 1>You talk about Diane realizing and recognizing that Charles had

883
00:53:52.679 --> 00:53:57.239
<v Speaker 1>this new found purpose in life through this poetry and

884
00:53:57.280 --> 00:54:00.840
<v Speaker 1>through helping other people come to these poetry workshops and

885
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:06.000
<v Speaker 1>all his newfound sense of optimism that he would maybe

886
00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:08.840
<v Speaker 1>some day be be released. But he also wanted to

887
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:13.800
<v Speaker 1>get married again because at one point he advised Diane

888
00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:17.039
<v Speaker 1>to get a divorce just so that the press and

889
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:20.320
<v Speaker 1>everyone else would stop hounding her. And now he said

890
00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:23.639
<v Speaker 1>he wanted to get married again. Diane was very, very pleased,

891
00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:26.440
<v Speaker 1>and he wanted to change his name to Paul David

892
00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:28.719
<v Speaker 1>Ashley right.

893
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:30.840
<v Speaker 2>He wanted to change his name because he felt he

894
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:34.000
<v Speaker 2>was a new person. One of the poems that he

895
00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:37.000
<v Speaker 2>wrote was called an Unfinished Man, and that he talks

896
00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:42.119
<v Speaker 2>about now he's changed, He's unfinished and he's evolving. He

897
00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:44.519
<v Speaker 2>was going to start a new life as a poet

898
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and start all over again as fresh as a brand

899
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:52.079
<v Speaker 2>new person. That was the reasoning behind the name change

900
00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:55.119
<v Speaker 2>and getting married again, because he felt like a completely

901
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:57.159
<v Speaker 2>new man. Now.

902
00:54:57.159 --> 00:55:01.639
<v Speaker 1>You were writing about the transformation that Charles undergoes in prison,

903
00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:05.079
<v Speaker 1>but a big part of that is this warden card

904
00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:08.960
<v Speaker 1>well and some of the strides in penal achievements as

905
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:13.519
<v Speaker 1>you write, and so as a result, Charles pens a

906
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:18.960
<v Speaker 1>glowing year in review column for the Prison newspaper about

907
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:23.000
<v Speaker 1>the changes that Cardbo had made. What was the response

908
00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:26.519
<v Speaker 1>from some of the inmates about this glowing review.

909
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:30.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, they weren't too happy. They are very very anti

910
00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:33.840
<v Speaker 2>authority figures, so you know, they had they had this

911
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:38.280
<v Speaker 2>credo that we're right and the prison authorities are wrong.

912
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:42.000
<v Speaker 2>But adding to this was that this op ed was

913
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:45.199
<v Speaker 2>picked up by the Arizona Republic in the Tucson Daily Star.

914
00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:49.800
<v Speaker 2>It just blew up all of a sudden. Schmid is

915
00:55:49.840 --> 00:55:54.039
<v Speaker 2>now seen as this poster boy for reformation. So it

916
00:55:54.079 --> 00:55:56.800
<v Speaker 2>makes the warden very happy, but it doesn't necessarily make

917
00:55:56.840 --> 00:55:58.159
<v Speaker 2>the other prisoners very happy.

918
00:55:59.079 --> 00:56:01.480
<v Speaker 1>Diane didn't realize it at the time, but he would

919
00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:06.079
<v Speaker 1>be her last visit with with Charles, and at that

920
00:56:06.199 --> 00:56:10.960
<v Speaker 1>time she in retrospect she saw said that he had

921
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:16.840
<v Speaker 1>said something regarding doctor Fritz and retribution. What does he

922
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:19.039
<v Speaker 1>have to say to Diane about that?

923
00:56:19.880 --> 00:56:22.239
<v Speaker 2>Well, she claimed that what he said to her was

924
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:24.519
<v Speaker 2>he just kind of brought it up out of the blue.

925
00:56:24.559 --> 00:56:27.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, doctor Fritz could get to me at any

926
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:29.519
<v Speaker 2>time if he wanted to. And she said, what are

927
00:56:29.559 --> 00:56:32.079
<v Speaker 2>you talking about? He goes, I'm just you know, just saying.

928
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:36.039
<v Speaker 4>And again she didn't really think much about that. Of course,

929
00:56:36.039 --> 00:56:39.159
<v Speaker 4>it didn't hit her until much later on when everybody

930
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:43.079
<v Speaker 4>was trying to figure out, you know, who was behind

931
00:56:43.079 --> 00:56:43.960
<v Speaker 4>Spinney's demise.

932
00:56:45.079 --> 00:56:48.320
<v Speaker 1>What did she find out? But also in relation to

933
00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:51.440
<v Speaker 1>what Smitty had said in retrospect, how did she put

934
00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:51.920
<v Speaker 1>it together?

935
00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:58.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, she found out that doctor Fritz was the heart

936
00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:06.239
<v Speaker 2>doctor of the Mafio, so Joseph Bonano. And when Schmidty

937
00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:10.360
<v Speaker 2>was originally thought to be this is before his arrest

938
00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:13.840
<v Speaker 2>and Schmidty and Bruns were together, they were paid a

939
00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:18.719
<v Speaker 2>visit by Joe Bonano Junior and a couple of his henchmen.

940
00:57:19.480 --> 00:57:22.440
<v Speaker 2>This was in sixty five and this was also brought

941
00:57:22.519 --> 00:57:24.800
<v Speaker 2>up in court testimony, and they actually had the pictures

942
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:29.039
<v Speaker 2>of these two guys that they took. They took schmid

943
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:34.800
<v Speaker 2>and Bruns to San Diego, San Diego area, because schmid

944
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:39.480
<v Speaker 2>told these gentlemen that he hadn't seen Gretchen or Wendy,

945
00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:42.519
<v Speaker 2>but he thought that perhaps that they were in that

946
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:46.159
<v Speaker 2>area because the last time she called him, she called

947
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:48.679
<v Speaker 2>the brag you know, that she was with another guy

948
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:51.199
<v Speaker 2>and she was at the beach in San Diego. So

949
00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:53.519
<v Speaker 2>he said, well, you know, you should probably go look there,

950
00:57:53.559 --> 00:57:56.000
<v Speaker 2>and they said, no, you're gonna come with us. So

951
00:57:56.039 --> 00:58:00.400
<v Speaker 2>these guys actually take Schmid and Bruns to Sandy Diego

952
00:58:00.800 --> 00:58:04.280
<v Speaker 2>for a couple of days looking Wendy and Gretchen. So

953
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:05.719
<v Speaker 2>that was the association.

954
00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:11.159
<v Speaker 1>Interesting you write that in the start of nineteen seventy five,

955
00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:16.039
<v Speaker 1>Diane was employed in Tucson, but she also had a

956
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:20.039
<v Speaker 1>real batch of depression after she lost her employment, and

957
00:58:20.119 --> 00:58:24.519
<v Speaker 1>so she didn't see Smitty for quite a while. And

958
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:31.000
<v Speaker 1>then she on March twentieth, saw the news and the newscast.

959
00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:36.599
<v Speaker 2>That's correct, she saw where Schmitty was stabbed. Now, initially

960
00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:39.000
<v Speaker 2>it was reported twenty three times, but the autopsy showed

961
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:43.360
<v Speaker 2>that it was he was stabbed forty seven times, and

962
00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:47.639
<v Speaker 2>so he was still alive, but it didn't look like

963
00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:50.360
<v Speaker 2>he was going to make it. And then the ambulance

964
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:53.320
<v Speaker 2>on one of the prison officials asked him who did it,

965
00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:55.159
<v Speaker 2>and he said, well, how bad am I? He goes,

966
00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:56.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't think you're going to make it, Smitty, and

967
00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:59.960
<v Speaker 2>he said, you know it was. He listed these two gentlemen,

968
00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Dennis Eversol and a guy named James Farrah, these two gentlemen,

969
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:09.079
<v Speaker 2>and they happened to be his friends, and they happened

970
00:59:09.079 --> 00:59:13.280
<v Speaker 2>to be his outside trustee doormates. They didn't live in

971
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:16.079
<v Speaker 2>the same room, but they lived in the same orders

972
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:20.559
<v Speaker 2>at the same area, so they were also trustees. And

973
00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:22.679
<v Speaker 2>they knew him for a period of several years, so

974
00:59:22.719 --> 00:59:25.239
<v Speaker 2>they were really good friends. So that's what he couldn't believe.

975
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:28.199
<v Speaker 2>When he got to a hospital, he told his mom,

976
00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:31.159
<v Speaker 2>these guys were my friends. So he found it very

977
00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:32.920
<v Speaker 2>hard to believe that they would do this to him,

978
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:36.320
<v Speaker 2>and for no reason, because an eyewitness saw them walk

979
00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:40.719
<v Speaker 2>into his room with shanks and hooks and they stabbed them.

980
00:59:40.760 --> 00:59:44.000
<v Speaker 2>He didn't have a chance to defend himself. And they

981
00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:46.480
<v Speaker 2>had shanked them pretty good forty seven times.

982
00:59:48.639 --> 00:59:51.119
<v Speaker 1>They had stabbed them once in the eye, and you

983
00:59:51.199 --> 00:59:54.000
<v Speaker 1>have the chapter I for an eye. But also that

984
00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:57.239
<v Speaker 1>very interesting that it was found out that there was

985
00:59:57.280 --> 01:00:00.599
<v Speaker 1>a gun smuggled and official gun smuggled in rather than

986
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:02.280
<v Speaker 1>just jailhouse weaponry.

987
01:00:03.119 --> 01:00:05.760
<v Speaker 2>But that was later. Yes, But but he was saying

988
01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:08.840
<v Speaker 2>Schmidier had said that in this article with ken Burton,

989
01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:12.440
<v Speaker 2>that he that he penned that guns were they're called

990
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:16.039
<v Speaker 2>zip guns because they would make them out of wood

991
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:19.039
<v Speaker 2>and rubber bands, but they acted like real guns, and

992
01:00:19.079 --> 01:00:21.599
<v Speaker 2>they'd make them in the wood in the metal shop.

993
01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:25.199
<v Speaker 2>So he said he thought that perhaps thirty percent of

994
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:29.199
<v Speaker 2>all the prisoners were armed with weapons, not only just shanks,

995
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:31.920
<v Speaker 2>but with thirty percent with guns.

996
01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:35.880
<v Speaker 1>Pardon me too. What I meant was the the knife

997
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:38.000
<v Speaker 1>had been smuggled into the prison and it was not

998
01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:39.559
<v Speaker 1>a homemade ship.

999
01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:43.239
<v Speaker 2>That's correct. Yeah, the Knight the knife, one of the

1000
01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:46.599
<v Speaker 2>knives was smuggled in. It was I believe it was

1001
01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:51.119
<v Speaker 2>double bladed, and it was it was meant to cause damage.

1002
01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:56.000
<v Speaker 1>There was an investigation by the warden, and so they

1003
01:00:56.039 --> 01:01:01.679
<v Speaker 1>did get to Eversoul and Pharah and did sentence them. Interestingly,

1004
01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:06.480
<v Speaker 1>what they got was a concurrent sentence, which really wouldn't count.

1005
01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:11.400
<v Speaker 2>That's correct, And a year later Eversoul was actually killed

1006
01:01:11.719 --> 01:01:14.960
<v Speaker 2>in a prison riot by a gun. Pharah was also

1007
01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:18.320
<v Speaker 2>shot by that same individual. Now there were rumors that

1008
01:01:18.360 --> 01:01:23.239
<v Speaker 2>he was wheelchair bound and that the state didn't necessarily

1009
01:01:23.239 --> 01:01:25.599
<v Speaker 2>want to take care of him, and so he was

1010
01:01:25.639 --> 01:01:29.159
<v Speaker 2>released in nineteen eighty two, which was you know, he

1011
01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:33.719
<v Speaker 2>killed two people and he only served a total sentence

1012
01:01:33.719 --> 01:01:36.079
<v Speaker 2>of twelve years. So I always found that was kind

1013
01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:37.039
<v Speaker 2>of curious.

1014
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:42.599
<v Speaker 1>What about Diane, She writes in this book, after this

1015
01:01:42.760 --> 01:01:48.880
<v Speaker 1>devastating news. What does she do in her own life afterwards?

1016
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:52.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean she at that point, I think she

1017
01:01:52.159 --> 01:01:55.880
<v Speaker 2>was married five times. And keep in mind her second husband,

1018
01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:59.320
<v Speaker 2>she had to go up to Oregon and leave Tucson

1019
01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:02.000
<v Speaker 2>because she which run out of town. But you know,

1020
01:02:03.079 --> 01:02:05.440
<v Speaker 2>a couple of months to their marriage, he was out

1021
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:08.360
<v Speaker 2>with a couple of buddies. He hit a guardrail and

1022
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:12.079
<v Speaker 2>he was the driver, and the guardrail glanced up through

1023
01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:15.880
<v Speaker 2>the windshield, decapitated him and then killed another person. So

1024
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:20.400
<v Speaker 2>she had been through five marriages. You know. The first

1025
01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:23.440
<v Speaker 2>gentleman of Schmid, you know, he goes away to prison

1026
01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:26.519
<v Speaker 2>for as a serial killer. The second one is decapitated.

1027
01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:31.440
<v Speaker 2>The others are drinkers or people that just left her

1028
01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:33.079
<v Speaker 2>in the middle of the night. So she's had a

1029
01:02:33.199 --> 01:02:35.960
<v Speaker 2>run of really bad luck, you know, a series of

1030
01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:41.719
<v Speaker 2>mental breakdowns. You know, she had just just a really

1031
01:02:41.800 --> 01:02:44.840
<v Speaker 2>serious run of bad luck. As far as I'm concerned.

1032
01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:50.440
<v Speaker 1>In this book, she credits any kind of recovery. She

1033
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:53.199
<v Speaker 1>doesn't talk about closure, but any kind of recovery to

1034
01:02:53.440 --> 01:03:00.719
<v Speaker 1>her faith in God. And she talks about obviously the

1035
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:05.599
<v Speaker 1>cathartic power of writing this book and finally coming to

1036
01:03:05.679 --> 01:03:08.599
<v Speaker 1>grips with some of her emotions regarding Charles Schmidt.

1037
01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:12.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, as a matter of fact, you know, her kids

1038
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:14.559
<v Speaker 2>didn't want her to do this book. I decided that

1039
01:03:14.639 --> 01:03:17.559
<v Speaker 2>I was going to meet up with them just to see,

1040
01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:22.119
<v Speaker 2>you know what, you know, what their issues were, and

1041
01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:25.400
<v Speaker 2>they were definitely legitimate issues. And I brought my mother along.

1042
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:27.960
<v Speaker 2>And my mother at the time was eighty four years

1043
01:03:28.000 --> 01:03:31.880
<v Speaker 2>old and my mom is a woman of faith. Diane's daughter,

1044
01:03:32.119 --> 01:03:34.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, brought up her list of reasons and my mom,

1045
01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:36.880
<v Speaker 2>who was a very very sweet lady, said, you know,

1046
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:41.320
<v Speaker 2>Diane's kind of kept this inside of herself for all

1047
01:03:41.360 --> 01:03:43.920
<v Speaker 2>these years and hasn't done her any good. Do you

1048
01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:45.960
<v Speaker 2>think maybe that if she talked about it and wrote

1049
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:48.960
<v Speaker 2>about it, it might be cathartic. And then my mom

1050
01:03:49.159 --> 01:03:51.400
<v Speaker 2>asked if we could all pray about it, and so

1051
01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:56.199
<v Speaker 2>we did that. That kind of did it. The daughter said, okay,

1052
01:03:56.480 --> 01:03:59.400
<v Speaker 2>let's try it. So now we're in that phase where

1053
01:03:59.800 --> 01:04:03.000
<v Speaker 2>the book was released, and I think Diane couldn't be

1054
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:05.159
<v Speaker 2>happier because she got to tell her story finally.

1055
01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:12.480
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and just intummation, how does she reconcile this love

1056
01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:18.320
<v Speaker 1>affair that continued right till his death, despite the heinous

1057
01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:21.519
<v Speaker 1>murders that he was responsible for.

1058
01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:26.159
<v Speaker 2>I think she reconciles it with I was his wife,

1059
01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:28.800
<v Speaker 2>I said till death to his part, she wanted to

1060
01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:31.840
<v Speaker 2>be faithful to him, and you know, she is actually

1061
01:04:31.880 --> 01:04:34.559
<v Speaker 2>still in love with him. She recognizes what he did,

1062
01:04:35.440 --> 01:04:37.280
<v Speaker 2>and so it doesn't really make a lot of sense

1063
01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:40.480
<v Speaker 2>to a lot of people. She doesn't necessarily feel that

1064
01:04:40.559 --> 01:04:42.719
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't have to make sense to anyone but her,

1065
01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:46.559
<v Speaker 2>and so she believes that Smithie is still the love

1066
01:04:46.599 --> 01:04:48.880
<v Speaker 2>of her life, and that was the first love of

1067
01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:52.039
<v Speaker 2>her life, and that will always remain regardless of what

1068
01:04:52.119 --> 01:04:52.440
<v Speaker 2>he did.

1069
01:04:54.400 --> 01:04:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I think that's what I got from it as well,

1070
01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:01.840
<v Speaker 1>that she describes a period of time when she was

1071
01:05:02.960 --> 01:05:06.920
<v Speaker 1>totally in love with this person, and that love continued

1072
01:05:07.079 --> 01:05:10.480
<v Speaker 1>because of the way he had treated her in the

1073
01:05:10.519 --> 01:05:15.920
<v Speaker 1>relationship and once he was imprisoned as well, So this

1074
01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:20.440
<v Speaker 1>remained the strongest and most purest love that she had

1075
01:05:20.440 --> 01:05:22.719
<v Speaker 1>ever experienced in her life by far.

1076
01:05:23.719 --> 01:05:26.760
<v Speaker 2>That's correct, And I think that's probably the only way

1077
01:05:26.800 --> 01:05:28.599
<v Speaker 2>you could sum it up. I mean, it doesn't make

1078
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:31.400
<v Speaker 2>sense to a lot of people, but again, it makes

1079
01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:33.519
<v Speaker 2>sense to her, and that's what she holds on too.

1080
01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:37.400
<v Speaker 1>In the end, you talk about just a little bit

1081
01:05:37.400 --> 01:05:40.239
<v Speaker 1>about where are they now? You talk about flee Bailey,

1082
01:05:40.360 --> 01:05:44.679
<v Speaker 1>but also very interestingly a book called I a Squealer,

1083
01:05:44.800 --> 01:05:47.360
<v Speaker 1>an Insider's account. Can you tell us about how that

1084
01:05:47.400 --> 01:05:48.440
<v Speaker 1>book came to be?

1085
01:05:49.679 --> 01:05:53.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, Bruns had wanted to tell his story, so he wrote.

1086
01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:57.239
<v Speaker 2>He immediately wrote, like I think, one hundred page manuscript,

1087
01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:59.800
<v Speaker 2>like a year after these murders took place, so that

1088
01:05:59.880 --> 01:06:03.400
<v Speaker 2>was fresh in his memory. Nothing ever happened, and so

1089
01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:06.559
<v Speaker 2>he just kind of put it away in storage and

1090
01:06:06.599 --> 01:06:09.719
<v Speaker 2>then his daughters found it, dusted it off, I think

1091
01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:13.480
<v Speaker 2>in twenty seventeen or twenty eighteen, and they published it.

1092
01:06:13.840 --> 01:06:16.519
<v Speaker 2>You know, it was very, very insightful. One of the

1093
01:06:16.519 --> 01:06:21.800
<v Speaker 2>most unbelievable stories out of that book was that as

1094
01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:27.360
<v Speaker 2>Smitty was being dropped off the prison in Florence, Bruns

1095
01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:32.480
<v Speaker 2>happened to be their hitch hiking and he said And

1096
01:06:32.519 --> 01:06:34.440
<v Speaker 2>I talked to Bruns on the phone and he said

1097
01:06:34.440 --> 01:06:37.679
<v Speaker 2>to me, I said, God, that that scene where he's

1098
01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:40.800
<v Speaker 2>being driven to prison and you're you're leaving town as

1099
01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:44.079
<v Speaker 2>he's entering town. I said, that's just stunning. I said,

1100
01:06:44.079 --> 01:06:46.599
<v Speaker 2>what was like, did you make Eincott eye contact and

1101
01:06:46.679 --> 01:06:49.480
<v Speaker 2>he goes we did, but there was nothing there in

1102
01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:52.599
<v Speaker 2>his eyes. He just looked glazed and looked past me

1103
01:06:52.760 --> 01:06:58.360
<v Speaker 2>like he couldn't believe it. Wow, Yeah, it was. It

1104
01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:01.599
<v Speaker 2>was a It's it's an interesting book. It's a good book,

1105
01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:03.280
<v Speaker 2>and I would recommend that as well.

1106
01:07:04.199 --> 01:07:07.440
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely. Olana, thank you very much for coming on and

1107
01:07:07.480 --> 01:07:11.639
<v Speaker 1>talking about your extraordinary book with Diane Schmidt. It's Smitty,

1108
01:07:11.880 --> 01:07:16.159
<v Speaker 1>My marriage to serial killer Charles Schmid, the Pied Piper

1109
01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:21.480
<v Speaker 1>of Tucson. You are a renowned author of many previous books.

1110
01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Can you tell us about the new book project that

1111
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:25.960
<v Speaker 1>we spoke about before this interview.

1112
01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, actually, this book is actually in the can and

1113
01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:32.519
<v Speaker 2>it's ready for publication. I did a book about the

1114
01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:36.679
<v Speaker 2>first bio ever on a celebrity hairstylist, Jay Sebring. I

1115
01:07:36.719 --> 01:07:40.880
<v Speaker 2>did it with his nephew, Anthony D. Maria. And for

1116
01:07:41.039 --> 01:07:45.719
<v Speaker 2>years people had written about Jay because he was best

1117
01:07:45.760 --> 01:07:49.079
<v Speaker 2>known as a murder victim of the Manson family. You know,

1118
01:07:49.159 --> 01:07:52.400
<v Speaker 2>after he was murdered, a lot of these really strange

1119
01:07:52.400 --> 01:07:55.679
<v Speaker 2>and weird rumors came out about him that turned out

1120
01:07:55.719 --> 01:08:00.239
<v Speaker 2>to be completely false. So I had access through anty

1121
01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:03.880
<v Speaker 2>to all the family photos, all the documents how he

1122
01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:07.679
<v Speaker 2>built up this incredible business. He was actually the first

1123
01:08:07.719 --> 01:08:11.719
<v Speaker 2>gentleman to introduce men's hair design to the United States.

1124
01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:13.840
<v Speaker 2>A lot of people think that it was either Vidal

1125
01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:17.359
<v Speaker 2>sas Soon or somebody else, but Jay was actually the

1126
01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:20.000
<v Speaker 2>very first. He had a clientele that was a who's

1127
01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:24.560
<v Speaker 2>who Hollywood, Frank Sinatra, Steve McQueen, Paul Newman, the rat Pack.

1128
01:08:24.800 --> 01:08:26.800
<v Speaker 2>He had everybody. He was the first guy that charged

1129
01:08:27.079 --> 01:08:30.760
<v Speaker 2>one hundred dollars a haircut when at the time people

1130
01:08:30.760 --> 01:08:33.239
<v Speaker 2>were getting barbers were getting three dollars and fifty cents.

1131
01:08:33.359 --> 01:08:37.760
<v Speaker 2>So he completely revolutionized the industry. Today, I think it's

1132
01:08:37.800 --> 01:08:42.239
<v Speaker 2>like a twenty billion dollar industry. He's the guy that

1133
01:08:42.319 --> 01:08:45.399
<v Speaker 2>started it, but nobody knows who he is. So that's

1134
01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:47.560
<v Speaker 2>the book that we've written.

1135
01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:51.720
<v Speaker 1>Very interesting, and your other books that people could take

1136
01:08:51.760 --> 01:08:54.880
<v Speaker 1>a look are on Amazon as well for those that

1137
01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:57.439
<v Speaker 1>might want to take a look further. Can you do

1138
01:08:57.439 --> 01:08:59.359
<v Speaker 1>you have a website or do you any social media?

1139
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:02.079
<v Speaker 2>I do some social media. I tease the book out.

1140
01:09:02.279 --> 01:09:05.640
<v Speaker 2>I've made some short little film clips. But yeah, that's

1141
01:09:05.800 --> 01:09:09.600
<v Speaker 2>Marshall Tarrell on Facebook. They can follow me there and

1142
01:09:09.600 --> 01:09:12.640
<v Speaker 2>of course they can Get the book at Genius Books

1143
01:09:12.760 --> 01:09:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Publishing dot com or Amazon dot com.

1144
01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:19.960
<v Speaker 1>Sounds great. Thank you so much, Marshall Terrell for coming

1145
01:09:19.960 --> 01:09:23.520
<v Speaker 1>on and talking about Smitty, my marriage to serial killer

1146
01:09:23.640 --> 01:09:27.439
<v Speaker 1>Charles Schmidt, the pied Piper of Tucson. Thank you very much,

1147
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:29.439
<v Speaker 1>very much for this interview, and you have a great

1148
01:09:29.479 --> 01:09:32.840
<v Speaker 1>evening and good night. Thank you very much, thank you,