WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:17.960 Coming to you from the dining room table at East 2 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:22.399 Barbary Lane. Welcome to a special episode of Full Circle 3 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:23.640 the podcast. 4 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:25.920 I am your host Charles Tyson Jr. 5 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:29.399 And I'm your host Martha Madrigal. Our special guest today 6 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:33.079 is the author of seven books, including Glass and The 7 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:37.000 Pleasures of Memory in Shakespeare's Sonnets. In twenty twenty one, 8 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:40.880 he was named a Guggenheim Fellow. Today we're discussing the 9 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:44.159 book Red Hot and Blue from the thirty three and 10 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.600 a third series. John S. Garrison, Welcome to the Full 11 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:49.479 Circle Table. 12 00:00:49.640 --> 00:00:51.320 Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here. 13 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:57.359 We're so glad to have you. So you have written 14 00:00:57.439 --> 00:01:03.079 this awesome book about Red Hot and Blue. And you know, 15 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:08.280 the Red Hot and Blue project was in nineteen ninety, 16 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:14.959 so I was in the tenth grade, shut up, but 17 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:22.920 as a high schooler, you know, in the nineties, who 18 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:27.120 was not yet out to himself, not to mention anyone else, 19 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:32.799 and then a project like this coming out, it gave 20 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:35.959 me a lot of a lot of feelings. But why 21 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:39.799 don't you talk about your what the project is, and 22 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:43.920 your introduction to it and what it meant in your 23 00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:44.719 life at that time. 24 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:47.760 Yeah, yeah, It's interesting. I was sort of in the 25 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:52.359 same place I was, let's say, nineteen ninety, just graduating 26 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.319 high school, entering college, and I was. 27 00:01:56.599 --> 00:02:00.159 I am so old in this feeling it too. 28 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:04.920 But I was also like not out to anybody, kind 29 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:08.000 of out to myself, but not I mean, no one 30 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:12.240 talked about queerness or being gay or whatever and something 31 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:14.360 on the way they do now. So yeah, for that 32 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:16.439 album to come out and all of a sudden, have 33 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:21.800 I don't know, YouTube, Thompson Twins, David Byrne, like all 34 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:24.840 these people think singing about in some cases queer love, 35 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:29.199 Katie Lang, in some cases singing about the epidemic. Just 36 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:31.800 all of a sudden, I thought, like, WHOA, Like, if 37 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:35.680 they all talk about gay things and about HIV, then 38 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.000 maybe it shouldn't be so scary for me to do it. 39 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:41.560 But the album itself came out as the first major 40 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:44.520 response from the music industry to the AIDS epidemic. There 41 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:48.080 hadn't really been anything as big beforehand. There have been 42 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.639 a couple small things, and it came out at the 43 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.319 time of the sort of height of the pandemic. This 44 00:02:55.360 --> 00:03:00.400 is before the Triple Cocktail, before effective treatments. It was 45 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:02.960 around the time that AIDS was the number one killer 46 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:06.919 of Americans twenty five to forty four. So it was 47 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:10.120 really kind of the hindigal of the epidemic, the kind 48 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:11.960 of a crux time for me in Charms of my 49 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:14.560 own coming out, and it was just it was time 50 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:16.840 for action, and the music industry stepped. 51 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:21.639 Up for real, definitely, and it was you know, a 52 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:27.319 lot of the heavy hitters in the industry, and it 53 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:31.800 was pretty brave of them, what was considered let me 54 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:35.199 say that was considered pretty brave of them all to 55 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:40.199 attach themselves to this project, because lord knows, the stigma 56 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:44.240 towards the disease was still very heavy at the time. 57 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.240 Well, and the stigma toward queerness was very heavy at 58 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:52.560 the time, right right. Yeah. I came of age a 59 00:03:52.599 --> 00:03:55.159 little bit younger and you know, in the early eighties, 60 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:58.039 so you know, I was there when we were just 61 00:03:58.080 --> 00:03:59.879 starting to talk about it and figure out what it 62 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:05.159 mean and how did we contract it, and you know, 63 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.960 just in this moment in time in America. You know, 64 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:13.400 I had a discussion with a whole bunch of trans 65 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:17.279 people last night, and you know, we were talking about 66 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:21.600 the pandemic that you know, ours lasted fifteen years. Yes, 67 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:26.319 and this really was the center of it. So, yeah, 68 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:30.560 the stigma was around us existing. The stigma was around us, 69 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:35.680 you know, daring to defy anyone and realizing that we 70 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:40.079 had to be loud. We didn't really have a choice. 71 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:42.759 So the project itself talk a little bit about that 72 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:48.160 surrounds Cole Porter's music, and ironically there's not really a 73 00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:52.399 mention of his queerness. 74 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:55.680 In the project. In the project, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's 75 00:04:55.720 --> 00:05:00.920 super interesting. So this was the Red Hot organization and 76 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:05.399 would go on to make a whole series of albums 77 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:10.439 supporting funding to combat the AIDS epidemic and then later 78 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:15.680 funding efforts towards same sex marriage in Southeast Asia. Now 79 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:19.360 they have a new album where they's supporting trans rites 80 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:25.360 with trans performers doing duets with cystandard performers. But this 81 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:29.680 was their first album and it brought It really came 82 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:35.600 about because there was a someone in the arts community 83 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:38.639 in John Carlin who was friends with Keith Haring, David 84 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:43.199 Wan Aerobics, similar high profile queer artists who were dying 85 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:47.480 or died of HIV, and he partnered with David Byrne 86 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:50.959 of the Talking Heads, whose sister in law was ah 87 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:53.800 TOV positive and she would actually die shortly after the 88 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:56.839 album came out, and they got together with a filmmaker 89 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:59.040 named Lee Blake, and the three of them just went 90 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:01.439 out to musical artists and said, we need to do something, 91 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:03.720 and we need to raise awareness, we need to get 92 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:06.480 some funding out there to fight the AIDS epidemic. And 93 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:08.519 they brought a bunch of bus together to do covers 94 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:12.199 of Cold Porter songs. And you're exactly right. It's a 95 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:14.519 kind of a it's a kind of a curious choice 96 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:20.240 because Colporter, you know, lived and died before the AIDS epidemic, 97 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:24.240 lived and died before a stone Wall, was a semi 98 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:29.920 closet dude, gay man. And nonetheless, they chose to resurrect 99 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:34.399 his music for the album. And you're exactly right, they didn't. 100 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.800 What they didn't overtly talk about Coldporter being queer. One 101 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:42.279 of the requirements from the cold Porter Family Foundation. I 102 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:44.279 guess the folks who owned the rights was to was 103 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:48.720 that they wouldn't mention his queerness. But I think it's 104 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:52.040 still it comes out nonetheless, when you listen to the 105 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:54.519 songs in this context and you realize the he's talking 106 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:59.959 about loss, forbidden love, secret love the kinds of thing 107 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.000 that were offered people. 108 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:09.600 And what's very cool about that is, you know, when 109 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:14.240 I'm fifteen years old, I don't think I really clocked 110 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:21.360 that the project was centering around Coalporter's music. And then 111 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.360 later on in life, I saw the movie to Lovely Yeah, 112 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:33.600 and that's when I realized he wasn't being really that subtle, 113 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.360 even though he was being very subtle with his with 114 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.959 his lyrics. And so once when I'm reading the book 115 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.680 and I'm putting all the pieces together, I'm realizing how 116 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:51.879 perfect of a choice that actually was. You know, euphemism 117 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:57.800 upon euphemism upon euphemism, and it also gave a lot 118 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:02.360 of room for interpretation when it came to the videos. 119 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:06.920 Before we sat down, I sat and I watched them all. 120 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:07.839 I found. 121 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.160 A good deal of them, not all of them, but 122 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:17.319 many of them on YouTube, and there were such works 123 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:21.360 of art. The one that stuck out to me, well, 124 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.040 the two that stuck out to me the most one 125 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:28.240 was Nana Cherry got you under my Skin for one thing. 126 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:33.600 That was the only one from that project that made 127 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:37.720 its way to me on its own, just by virtue 128 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:39.519 of it being something that Nana Cherry did so of 129 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:42.240 course I wanted to know what it was. And the 130 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:47.000 other one was too darn Hot, which was erasure. Yeah, 131 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:51.639 I believe, Yeah, And that was such an artistic piece. 132 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:53.120 Yeah, I. 133 00:08:55.200 --> 00:09:00.480 It was so much, so many ways to express us 134 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:05.240 the feelings of Coldporter's music and what was just going 135 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:08.720 on in the time. Talk a little bit about the 136 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:14.519 pushback in terms of what could be said, what couldn't 137 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:16.639 be said, and how. 138 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:19.960 Yeah it's funny, you know, kind of same as you. 139 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:23.519 When I first heard the songs, I think I didn't 140 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:27.240 even I didn't even reached them as Coldporter songs, Like 141 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:29.159 I thought, oh, this is like a cool new song 142 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:32.879 by you two. I mean, just sound naive. A lot 143 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:34.879 of us are, or at least I was, as kind 144 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:37.960 of a young queer person about our past, like we 145 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:41.519 don't realize that they're the queer people, trans people, non 146 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:46.720 binary people like have been around forever and it's so powerful, 147 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:50.440 or it was for me at least, just realizing Coldporter 148 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:54.200 and always people in the past who lived queer lives 149 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:57.080 contributed so much to what we think of now as 150 00:09:57.159 --> 00:09:59.960 just kind of straight society in a way, like Cold 151 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.840 Porter authored so many of the love songs that haven't 152 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.480 canonized or thought of today as like these great kind 153 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:10.159 of I don't know, wedding songs or whatever, but we 154 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:12.080 realize it. Oh, it's like queer people have always been 155 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:16.679 there in this long history. But yeah, you see this 156 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:19.639 in the Lovely film and that there's there was pushback 157 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:23.519 against Cold Porter's open sexuality at the time, you know, 158 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:27.200 when the album came out. Dannina Cherry's song is one 159 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:29.639 of the standouts, I've Got You under my Skin. She 160 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:33.519 uses that song alters some of the lyrics to have 161 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:36.360 it speak directly to the dangers of injection drug use 162 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:41.200 for HIV transmission and they need to not share needles. 163 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:44.759 It was seen as totally radical to redo the song, 164 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:48.360 even though as you hear the title I've got You 165 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:50.279 under my Skin, you realize, oh my god, it's the 166 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:54.960 perfect metaphor, I guess, for virus transmission, for thinking about 167 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:57.399 just like why not to share needles? Like it's really basic, 168 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:01.159 don't get someone else under your skin. But the song 169 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.480 controversial for a couple of reasons. One because this is 170 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:07.919 the early days of rap, so a lot of the 171 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:11.120 reviewers said, oh, the album's really great when it stays 172 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.080 true to Coldporter's music. But when they try to do 173 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.799 a rap song with Coldporters music, like, it doesn't work 174 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:19.840 because rap isn't even music. So it was kind of 175 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.480 this early period where there was all this prejudice against rap, 176 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:25.039 which of course is totally wrapped up and prejudice against 177 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:25.720 folks of color. 178 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:28.080 But yeah, that song was. 179 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.759 So radical that when the television special for Red Hot 180 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:34.600 and Blue Air in the US, which had the videos 181 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.159 and the songs, they left out and in a cherry 182 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:40.200 video because it was just like, I say, want people 183 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.879 speaking so frankly about how AIDS is transmitted, even though 184 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:46.519 the way to stop AIDS from being transmitted is to 185 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:48.679 speak really frankly about how you get it now you 186 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:50.799 don't know, you don't get it right. 187 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:56.840 And that would explain why I came across that video 188 00:11:57.480 --> 00:11:58.960 separate from the project. 189 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:01.279 God it okay. 190 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:04.559 Totally please get My dog may make weird noises at times, 191 00:12:04.559 --> 00:12:06.600 so just please ignore. 192 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.480 That ours is going to at any moment too. 193 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:15.360 It's fun probably, Yeah. 194 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:16.000 I got a kick out of you. Also, the Jungle Brothers, 195 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.360 Oh yeah, they did a lot of work with the lyrics. 196 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:22.879 Yeah, that was the That was the only other song 197 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:27.200 where they changed the lyrics besides an ind cherry and 198 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:30.279 it's that song's really interesting because they changed it to 199 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.039 be overtly about kind of sexuality and how sort of 200 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:39.159 hooking up without using a condoms interest. But it's a 201 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:41.440 it's a really interesting song because that one also had 202 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:43.600 pushback where folks didn't want to play it, didn't want 203 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.159 to showcase it because they spoke so overtly about sex. 204 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:53.080 But Cold Porter's original was about cocaine. So yeah, so 205 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.320 the kick in the song was about it was about 206 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:58.039 doing cocaine and that, and that was censored at the time. 207 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:00.840 It wasn't at Coldporter's time. It wasn't playing the radio 208 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:02.639 and went on to become one of his biggest hits, 209 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.279 but he had to change the lyrics. So it's funny 210 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:11.000 that like in the modern day or whatever, like people think, oh, 211 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:13.519 that song's too controversial by the Dunker Brothers, we can't 212 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.120 play it. But it's like that song has always been controversial. 213 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:22.200 It's not a new thing, right, And it's interesting seeing 214 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:27.519 that video for the first time today. It totally fits 215 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:34.480 into where hip hop went shortly after, because so many 216 00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:39.600 artists made a point if not doing an entire song 217 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:43.919 at least having a message about using a condom and 218 00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:50.240 practicing safe sex. So that might have been like, you know, 219 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:55.840 opening the door for that, or it just happened. Yeah. 220 00:13:55.879 --> 00:14:01.000 One the hip hop community wrapped community. You know, we're 221 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:05.360 one of the most affected communities in terms of HIV 222 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:08.480 where access to healthcare and access to different kinds of 223 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:12.559 messaging wasn't getting to folks of color as readily. And 224 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:16.120 you know, thinking back even before Red Hot and Blue, 225 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:22.360 one of their early pioneers in terms of it was TLC. Right, 226 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.000 song Let's Talk About Sex was a song overly about 227 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:32.799 just having honest dialogue about sex and sexuality. Oh sorry, 228 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:36.879 that's a sorry. Yeah, I mean I was petting the 229 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:38.799 dog trying to keep them from barking at the same 230 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:40.200 time losing. 231 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.720 My history multitasking. 232 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.399 But but but sorry TLC. But the TLC also is 233 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.320 really invested in early AIDS messaging. They would wear condoms 234 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:53.320 on their clothes and their videos and besides save sex. 235 00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:57.320 Yeah, I remember they got in trouble because they all 236 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:01.720 looked like they were like teenagers and they're wearing condoms 237 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:03.679 on their faces and on their clothes. 238 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:04.159 Yeah, it. 239 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:06.879 Really was. 240 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:16.159 Yeah, this project definitely seeing it now with My Today 241 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:24.440 Eyes really was the opening the door for that style 242 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:32.080 of activism in music, which became much more prevalent in 243 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:37.200 the next two years, I would say, And it's this 244 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:42.039 project started the was this was the Red Foundation first 245 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:46.200 and then it became this or this started the Red Foundation, 246 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:48.200 this started. 247 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:54.159 So yeah, the Red Foundation Bona's major global organization fighting 248 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:59.720 against HIV that came out of this project. So for Bono, 249 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:04.519 for Annie Lennox of The Rhythmics, it was really this 250 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.799 album Red Hot and Blue that was their start of 251 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.080 being global leaders in the fighting and st HIV nic 252 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:13.600 So it's pretty I mean, it's a great It's really 253 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:15.919 interesting to know how being invited to be part of 254 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:20.639 a project like this is often the kind of first step. 255 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.080 Once you invite someone in thy can all of a 256 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:27.559 sudden become one of the really major pioneers and major 257 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:30.759 leaders for a issue they just might not have known 258 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:32.279 that much about before. 259 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:33.279 Right. 260 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:38.840 So you mentioned Bono the most, you to the most. 261 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.360 Is it safe to say that that is your favorite 262 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:43.559 entry in the project? 263 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.279 I definitely, yeah. So their song was Night and Day, 264 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.720 which is in some ways one of Colporter's most famous songs, 265 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.240 and it's the song that's been the most re recorded, 266 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:57.600 the most adapted of all the songs I think. So 267 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:01.639 I love that song and that song's about. That song's 268 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:06.599 about sort of obsession, desire, thinking about someone night and 269 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:10.039 day like that. For me, I don't know, maybe sorry, 270 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.960 maybe all of our experiences of teenage love, but that 271 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:15.119 really speaks to how I felt when I was a 272 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:19.079 teenager in my early twenties was like love and passion 273 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:22.759 was just such a big part I think of coming out, 274 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:27.799 being young, getting into music. So that song from me 275 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.640 really speaks to kind of what it's about to have 276 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:32.880 feelings and on the one hand, I want to resist 277 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:34.599 them and on the other hand, I want to talk 278 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.200 to everybody about that part. 279 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:43.519 And yeah, definitely, because you know, you were a couple 280 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:46.559 of years older than me, so you were in that 281 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:51.000 space which I didn't get to until I didn't come 282 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:58.400 out for until ninety three ninety four, and by that point, 283 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:03.960 you know, we were even further along into the saga 284 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:10.039 that was the epidemic, and I really and I never 285 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.920 really went back to Red, Hot and Blue, And it's 286 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.200 a shame because looking at it now, I'd have been 287 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:16.200 all over it. 288 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:18.839 Yeah, totally, you know, just like. 289 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:25.240 The imagery in like the Erasure video just speaks to me, 290 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:30.720 Like the family, the little white nuclear family sitting in 291 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:36.319 front of the television with the red blindfolds on, just 292 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:43.720 so powerful. So it came the project aired, Was it 293 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:44.920 in the UK first? 294 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:50.480 Yeah? Yeah, the project. The project was sort of multifold, 295 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:53.039 so there was there was the album that had the 296 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.079 twenty covers of Cultporter songs. There were videos made by 297 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:03.200 really leading filmmakers Jonathan Demi Vendors, and those videos were 298 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.720 then put together into a television special which was meant 299 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:09.920 to raise awareness by HIV. It aired first in the 300 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:13.519 UK with very little concern about showing all the videos 301 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:18.240 speaking frankly about sex, and then it also aired later 302 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:21.400 in the US. In the US it was sort of 303 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:26.119 dialed back. In the UK, it was very much an 304 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.559 AIDS awareness special that sort of had cul porters of 305 00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:32.680 through line. In the US it was a cul porter 306 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:38.319 special that also mentioned the AIDS epidemic, but it still 307 00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:45.759 was groundbreaking. Distinctions exactly and such. I mean, it's weird. 308 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:49.519 It's a distinction that speaks so much to I think 309 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:53.160 all of our experiences as queer people, as trance people, 310 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.599 as gay people, where like, we're so familiar with that 311 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:01.839 trend where our lives are mentioned and briefly we're a 312 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:06.519 side character in popular media where a character who dies off, 313 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:12.319 where the uncle, aunt whoever, who like you never hear about, 314 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:14.400 who doesn't come to Thanksgiving. 315 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:16.839 A cautionary tale. 316 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:21.839 Yeah exactly, yeah exactly, Yeah, no one talks about Edna 317 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:23.079 anymore or whatever. 318 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:23.599 Whatever. 319 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:29.519 Yeah. So the I mean, The Special kind of did 320 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.920 that same kind of work where it kind of in 321 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.680 the US it mentioned US but also sort of tried 322 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.319 to downplay US, but still it was radical. It was 323 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:45.640 the first time that the word condom was ever used 324 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:49.640 on primetime television outside of the news in the US. 325 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:54.200 Richard Gear was the host, so definitely a big name 326 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:58.559 who sort of raised awareness about the frankness talking about sexuality. 327 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:03.480 John Malkovich was also host. So on the one hand, 328 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.720 at prime time you had actors you recognized talking about 329 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:09.920 things like AIDS such a transmit disease. On the other hand, 330 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:12.039 it was the US one was a much more vanilla 331 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:17.559 version of what was broadcast globally, which makes. 332 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:22.640 Sense considering a the US and B that time totally 333 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:26.799 And it is really interesting because you think it would 334 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:34.440 be for lack of a better word, more palatable coming from. 335 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:39.759 Uh these beloved celebrities. Yeah, you know, but apparently not 336 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:40.279 so much. 337 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:45.880 What were other parts of that project that stuck with you? 338 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.319 There was also well, I should say also like part 339 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:54.160 and parcel of the Red, Hot, and Blue project was 340 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:59.640 a public awareness campaign that had posters and wheat pasting 341 00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:06.720 and what not about HIV prevention. And that campaign was 342 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:14.400 radical to one because it showed unclothed and naked straight couples, 343 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:21.000 gay cut queer couples, but also it showed mixed race couples. 344 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.000 It was bilingual. It was this kind of early moment 345 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.400 in the pandemic where a lot of the prevention messaging 346 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:33.000 was just about white men because it and that was 347 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:36.880 like because it wasceived as a gay male disease. Like 348 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.359 part of this project for me was going back to 349 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:43.240 all this stuff I had kind of forgotten. I had 350 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:48.319 forgotten that when HIV first emerged, it was referred to, 351 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:53.960 you know, by the White House as a gay plague, right, 352 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.759 and even in medical circles it was called gay Gay 353 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:00.359 related immune deficiency syndrome GRID. 354 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:02.759 GRID came before. 355 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.400 It D I mean, and if you listen to that name, 356 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:10.039 gay related. I mean like it sounds like, oh, because 357 00:23:10.119 --> 00:23:14.359 you're gay or related to the gay quote unquote lifestyle, 358 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:18.680 you get this disease, like like gay itself is sort 359 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.039 of a disease or attracts disease. Gay is a sickness. 360 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:25.680 And there was course well, and it was you know, 361 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:27.400 you mentioned that in the book. It took him til 362 00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:32.400 nineteen seventy three for it to you know, be removed 363 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.359 from the DFM. 364 00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:36.720 Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah, it took and you know 365 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:38.880 there's this lag time. So you think just because it 366 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:41.119 is taken out of the DSM in the seventies doesn't 367 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:43.640 mean that all the way through my I don't know 368 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:46.759 when I was growing up or even today, people don't think, Oh, 369 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:50.039 isn't it sort of something you catch? Can't people be recruited? 370 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.319 Like all those all those ideas are still there. So, 371 00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:57.759 you know, writing this book really took me back to 372 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:00.480 that era. I don't know if I blocked it out 373 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.480 or if things are better now so I've forgotten how 374 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:06.599 bad they used to be. But I mean it was 375 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:08.759 it was hard to go back to thinking about what 376 00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:10.839 it was like in the late eighties early nineties. But 377 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:14.119 it was also good for me to remember that. I mean, 378 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:16.960 all that stuff was so readily available, all that kind 379 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:21.920 of prejudice, all that homophobia, trans phobia, all that racism, 380 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:26.400 like it is immediately bubble to the surface with the pandemic. 381 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:31.680 Yes it did, Yes, it did because we had the seventies, right, 382 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:36.480 So we had Stonewall and other uprisings in the nineteen 383 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:39.880 sixties that kind of led us to a brief era 384 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.200 like you know, it lasted about as long as Disco 385 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:47.839 when we were we were there, you know, kind of 386 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:51.119 celebrated and part of the culture and and you know, 387 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:56.559 the village people and all of that. And then here 388 00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:00.400 was a nineteen eighty one and a lot of people 389 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.319 believed that that was our come up and like see 390 00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:07.599 that's what you get from that kind of behavior, celebrating 391 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.839 all that faggot for me, right, And that really was 392 00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:14.839 the way it looked, you know. And so for all 393 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:20.359 the strides we made, we took a huge, huge step 394 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:25.440 back for you know, most of the eighties and the nineties. 395 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.400 It changed the conversation. 396 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:32.680 Yeah, it's so tragic. Yeah, I think on the one hand, 397 00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:37.200 people forget that actually before AIDS, there was so much 398 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:41.680 progress around queer rights, around queer people being accepted the AIDS. 399 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:43.880 Epidemics come out wherever exactly. 400 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:46.559 The AIDS epidemic I mean, of course took a huge 401 00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:49.319