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<v Speaker 7>You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking

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<v Speaker 7>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 7>written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker BTK

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<v Speaker 7>Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking

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<v Speaker 7>and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with

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<v Speaker 7>your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.

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<v Speaker 2>For years, David Elliott Penton stocked elementary schools and playgrounds

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<v Speaker 2>looking for young girls from low income neighborhoods to abduct, rape,

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<v Speaker 2>and murder. He thought of them as throwaway kids, hardly

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<v Speaker 2>missed and soon forgotten except by those who loved them.

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<v Speaker 2>He was every parent's worst nightmare, the boogieman. They warned

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<v Speaker 2>their children about, the fiend who lurked outside bedroom windows.

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<v Speaker 2>Christy Meeks disappeared during a game of hide and seek

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<v Speaker 2>outside her mother's Mesquite apartment complex in January nineteen eighty

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<v Speaker 2>five and was found dead less than three months later

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<v Speaker 2>in Lake Texoma. Christy Procter's body was found in a

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<v Speaker 2>South Plain O field in April nineteen eighty eight, more

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<v Speaker 2>than two years after the fourth grader was last seen

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<v Speaker 2>walking from her North Dallas apartment to a friend's home

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<v Speaker 2>and Roxan Reyis was snatched from an alley while playing

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<v Speaker 2>outside her Garland apartment in November nineteen eighty seven. This

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<v Speaker 2>story focuses on the work of a team of police detectives,

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<v Speaker 2>starting with Garland police detective Gary Sweet, who picked up

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<v Speaker 2>the cases of the three missing girls after they've done

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety six. Years after the murders, he found

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<v Speaker 2>the girl's files and information on suspect David Elliott Pentin.

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<v Speaker 2>For some reason, out of all the stuff that was

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<v Speaker 2>in those two boxes, I pulled out a file and

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<v Speaker 2>started reading about him. Sweet said Penton was in jail

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<v Speaker 2>in Ohio for killing nine year old Nidra Ross. What

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<v Speaker 2>followed was a series of faithful twists, from reviewing old

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<v Speaker 2>tips to conducting new interviews and gathering information shared by

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<v Speaker 2>Penton's cellmates. By two thousand and three, Sweet and the

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<v Speaker 2>team had enough to indict Pentin. The title of the program,

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<v Speaker 2>This evening is true Detective from the detective's perspective, with

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<v Speaker 2>my special guest, Detective Gary Sweet. Welcome to the program,

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<v Speaker 2>and thank you for agreeing to this interview, Gary Sweet,

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<v Speaker 2>Good evening, Gary, thank you for agreeing to this interview.

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<v Speaker 6>Oh, thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much. Now you are the real life

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<v Speaker 2>hero for lack of a better word, of the Steve

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<v Speaker 2>Jackson's book Boogie Man, in which we covered about three

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<v Speaker 2>months ago on this program. Now we're going to be

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<v Speaker 2>talking from like the program title has been titled, from

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<v Speaker 2>the detectives perspective, So we're going to talk about the

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<v Speaker 2>cold case, how it seemed that fate intervened on behalf

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<v Speaker 2>of these victims and yourself to be able to be

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<v Speaker 2>involved in this extraordinary case and bring this killer to justice.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's give our audience a little bit of the

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<v Speaker 2>background on yourself.

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<v Speaker 6>Steve.

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<v Speaker 2>I've introduced basically and talked quite a bit about who

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<v Speaker 2>you were as a policeman. But tell us how you

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<v Speaker 2>got involved in being a detective. We'll start there and

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<v Speaker 2>tell us how you began to Again, tell us a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit about your background and how you became a

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<v Speaker 2>detective before we start talking about this involvement in this

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<v Speaker 2>cold case.

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<v Speaker 6>Okay, and our police department, we had a program that

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<v Speaker 6>it was basically called a rotational program where for six

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<v Speaker 6>months they would have a position that you could go

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<v Speaker 6>and work in the criminal investigation division. And in nineteen

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<v Speaker 6>eighty nine. I put in for that program and went

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<v Speaker 6>and worked. You're basically given mostly theft and criminal mischief

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<v Speaker 6>offenses to investigate. But I did that for six months

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<v Speaker 6>and really enjoyed it, so I knew that was something

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<v Speaker 6>I kind of wanted to do. But after the six months,

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<v Speaker 6>I had to go back to patrol and worked a

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<v Speaker 6>couple of more years, or actually about another year, and

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<v Speaker 6>then I went into the School Resource Officer program and

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<v Speaker 6>worked in a high school for about two and a

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<v Speaker 6>half years, and then an opening came available in the

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<v Speaker 6>criminal investigation division and I put in for that and

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<v Speaker 6>was accepted in there, and I got I guess maybe

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<v Speaker 6>the buy an intervention here again. But there were several

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<v Speaker 6>openings in just about every unit in the police department,

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<v Speaker 6>and there were thefts, auto theft, burglary investigations, juvenile crime investigations,

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<v Speaker 6>and the crimes against persons, crimes against persons being probably

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<v Speaker 6>the hardest one to get into. And I thought, what

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<v Speaker 6>the heck, I'll put in for that, and if I

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<v Speaker 6>don't get it, I'll put it on another one form

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<v Speaker 6>my second choice. Well, I put in for it and

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<v Speaker 6>actually got it, so I was kind of lucky to

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<v Speaker 6>get in there right away.

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<v Speaker 2>Now you say that's about nineteen ideas, so in.

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<v Speaker 6>Your when I actually got inside.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, that that far okay, So so tell us

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit about what you did learn in h

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<v Speaker 2>and the kind of cases that you did involve yourself

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<v Speaker 2>with with these crimes against persons. Tell us kind of

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<v Speaker 2>cases that you encountered.

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<v Speaker 6>We work generally everything from harassment cases up to homicide

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<v Speaker 6>cases involving adults. Now we do work murder cases if

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<v Speaker 6>it involved any murder cases juvenile or not. But if

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<v Speaker 6>from harassment to assaults to felling, the assaults to robberies,

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<v Speaker 6>sexual assaults up to murder, that's that's our prime And what.

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<v Speaker 2>And what kind of tell us what the environment was

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<v Speaker 2>like in terms of, say comparison to other cities that

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<v Speaker 2>you would know of in terms of nationally in America.

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<v Speaker 2>What was Garland, Texas like?

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<v Speaker 6>Garland, Texas is a really it's a I would classified

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<v Speaker 6>as a blue collar working town. The crime there is

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<v Speaker 6>not it's not a bad it's really not a bad

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<v Speaker 6>city to live in. I don't live there, but it's

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<v Speaker 6>not a bad city for a person to live in.

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<v Speaker 6>The crime rate is I guess I would classify it

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<v Speaker 6>as normal for that type of city of about two

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<v Speaker 6>hundred and fifty thousand populations somewhere in the area. We

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<v Speaker 6>probably the homicide rate is I think is relatively low

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<v Speaker 6>for that size of the town. We're on just east

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<v Speaker 6>of Dallas. We connect to Dallas on the east side.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's but it's not considered a suburb.

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<v Speaker 6>We'll say it's not. Yes day, I would have it's

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<v Speaker 6>a sub Dallas our border. I mean, you can be

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<v Speaker 6>driving along in one minuture in Garland, the next you're

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<v Speaker 6>in Dallas. We are actually we I guess it would

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<v Speaker 6>be considered a suburb. It's just I believe we're the

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<v Speaker 6>tenth largest city in Texas, so it's a relatively large suburb.

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<v Speaker 6>Mesquite connects to us on the south side. It just

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<v Speaker 6>covers a lot of ground. I think Garland is about

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<v Speaker 6>sixty square miles relatively roughly speaking, sixty square miles I

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<v Speaker 6>think a pretty good distance spread out, and the population

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<v Speaker 6>I'm not really sure how accurate that is. I think

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<v Speaker 6>we have a lot of unreported citizens also, I suppose.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so now tell us what happens in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>you being in a position where when is it that

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<v Speaker 2>you're in a position to first talk about this faithful

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<v Speaker 2>event where you are on a lunch. Steve talks about it.

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<v Speaker 2>You're on a lunch, You're you're looking through some cold

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<v Speaker 2>cases just for the heck of it, and what do

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<v Speaker 2>you find. Tell us about that first faithful event connected

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<v Speaker 2>to these for missing women girls.

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<v Speaker 6>Okay, I when I was working in the school program,

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<v Speaker 6>I always took my lunch relatively early, again, so I

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<v Speaker 6>could be in the lunch room when the kids were

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<v Speaker 6>in there. The job was more of a rapport building,

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<v Speaker 6>wasn't really security necessarily. We were kind of there to

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<v Speaker 6>build a good rapport with the kids, and it was

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<v Speaker 6>a large high school, so I like to hang out

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<v Speaker 6>in the lunch room with them and just kind of,

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<v Speaker 6>you know, hang out with the kids. But I got

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<v Speaker 6>used to doing the lunch early so I could be

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<v Speaker 6>in the lunch with them. So that habit kind of

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<v Speaker 6>carried over when I went into the investigation division, and

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<v Speaker 6>so about eleven o'clock I would take lunch. And also

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<v Speaker 6>the other benefit to it was we had at that

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<v Speaker 6>time it's not like that anymore, but we had one

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<v Speaker 6>computer per two detectives, and we shared a computer, and so, uh,

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<v Speaker 6>I was not that computer savvy at that time, and uh,

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<v Speaker 6>not that I am now, but the U I found

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<v Speaker 6>that extra hour when everyone went to lunch and I

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<v Speaker 6>could have the office to myself, give me a little

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<v Speaker 6>bit more time on the computer. So I liked to

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<v Speaker 6>hang around in there quiet by myself. And this one

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<v Speaker 6>particular that I don't think I had anything pressing, so

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<v Speaker 6>I just kind of wandered into the We called it

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<v Speaker 6>the murder closet. It there was a stacks of boxes

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<v Speaker 6>of unsolved murders, and I went in there and started

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<v Speaker 6>looking through them, just out of curiosity more than anything.

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<v Speaker 6>No one was around, so uh and I saw the

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<v Speaker 6>Roxanne Reis file, and I remembered that case because I

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<v Speaker 6>was a late night patrol officer and I worked the

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<v Speaker 6>area of town. My beat was in the area very

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<v Speaker 6>close to where Roxanne's disappearance curd so and I remembered it.

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<v Speaker 6>And I just picked that box up and pulled it

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<v Speaker 6>out and set it at my desk and opened it up.

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<v Speaker 6>And I think, as you were explaining before, I picked

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<v Speaker 6>the file out of it, just I think the first

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<v Speaker 6>file I grabbed out of it was David Penton and

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<v Speaker 6>it had several newspaper clippings, it had the composite drawing,

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<v Speaker 6>it had several things. I started reading about him and

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<v Speaker 6>thought to myself, boy, this guy really sounds like a

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<v Speaker 6>good suspect on this and looks like a good suspect.

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<v Speaker 6>He matches the picture that was drawn the composite, and

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<v Speaker 6>I thought to myself, I'm sure they looked him over

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<v Speaker 6>really well. You know, I didn't know what had been

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<v Speaker 6>done in the investigation by just you know, looking in

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<v Speaker 6>that file that quick, so I just kind of assumed

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<v Speaker 6>that I'm sure they looked at this guy pretty good.

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<v Speaker 6>And after the probably twenty five to thirty minutes of

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<v Speaker 6>going through reading about him, I ended up putting it

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<v Speaker 6>back up and going back to work basically, and I

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<v Speaker 6>ventured back in there every now and then, and even

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<v Speaker 6>took one of a new detective that came in there too.

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<v Speaker 6>I took him in there and showed him around. We

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<v Speaker 6>were both kind of fascinated with the cold cases, so

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<v Speaker 6>just was an interest to mine, and that case stayed

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<v Speaker 6>in my mind for some reason.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, how much time transpires and what are the circumstances

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<v Speaker 2>for their year next? Again? We can only chuck it

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<v Speaker 2>up to again another faithful event you're at the right place,

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<v Speaker 2>at the right time, with the right information. Tell us

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<v Speaker 2>about that. How many How long is it after this time?

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<v Speaker 6>Oh, I'm guessing between two and three years. I'm again

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<v Speaker 6>in there at lunch and the phone start ringing around

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<v Speaker 6>the room. I think Steve puts it pretty well in

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<v Speaker 6>the book We were the phone List. We always knew

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<v Speaker 6>when the secretary was trying to reach one of us

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<v Speaker 6>because the first letter of the alphabet detective, with the

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<v Speaker 6>closest letter to the front of the alphabet. His phone

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<v Speaker 6>would ring first. If he wasn't there, the second one

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<v Speaker 6>would ring, the third one ring, and it would just

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<v Speaker 6>kind of work its way around the room. And Sweet

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<v Speaker 6>was the second to the last name. Thompson was one

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<v Speaker 6>behind me, so I always knew, here it comes, mine's

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<v Speaker 6>about to be next. And when it rang, I picked

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<v Speaker 6>it up and it was Tammy Lopez. I didn't snap

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<v Speaker 6>on the name because Roxanne Res her name was Tammy

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<v Speaker 6>Reyes at the time. But she started explaining to me

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<v Speaker 6>that she had heard there was some new information about

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<v Speaker 6>her daughter's case, and that's, well, who's your daughter? And

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<v Speaker 6>she's Roxane Res. And then it hit me who this was,

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<v Speaker 6>and I at that time, I had not heard anything

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<v Speaker 6>about it. So I told her, I don't know anything,

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<v Speaker 6>but there's six other detectives in here, and when they

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<v Speaker 6>get back from much, I'll ask them and check with

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<v Speaker 6>my supervisor and see because there could have been something

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<v Speaker 6>I didn't know about it. So I told her i'd

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<v Speaker 6>call her back. And when they all got back and

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<v Speaker 6>I asked each one of them, no one knew anything

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<v Speaker 6>about it. So I had to call her and tell

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<v Speaker 6>her that, Nae, no one has heard anything. We don't

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<v Speaker 6>know anything new, and she sounded pretty disappointed, and that

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<v Speaker 6>kind of stuck with me. I think the worst thing

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<v Speaker 6>about those cases was just thinking about what the parents

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<v Speaker 6>must have been going through, because I had at that

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<v Speaker 6>particular time, I had two daughters myself, and I just

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<v Speaker 6>couldn't imagine what horrible things that was prepared to have

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<v Speaker 6>to deal with.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. Yeah, So now that conversation just again is just

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<v Speaker 2>you remember the case. Initially, you look through the box.

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<v Speaker 2>For some reason, Penton's name comes up, and you look,

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<v Speaker 2>you're bringing someone else looking into the murder closet, a

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<v Speaker 2>fellow officer, now Tammy Lopez. So what happens after that? Again?

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<v Speaker 2>You asked the six officers, any news. Nothing so And

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<v Speaker 2>in this interim, this three year period, and after this

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<v Speaker 2>call from Tammy Lopez, as we discussed with Steve Jackson,

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<v Speaker 2>what are the kind of cases? There are a couple

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<v Speaker 2>of cases that really stuck out that you actually are

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<v Speaker 2>involved with that, for lack of a better word, I

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<v Speaker 2>guess prepare you for your inevitable work that you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to have to do with Penton and to get Penton.

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<v Speaker 6>I think every probably every case that I worked had

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<v Speaker 6>probably had a little bit. I learned something every time

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<v Speaker 6>I do. I've been doing it now for nineteen years

293
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:09.920
<v Speaker 6>and they're doing those cases, and I think I learned

294
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:15.839
<v Speaker 6>something every time I work on. But probably the one

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00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:19.279
<v Speaker 6>the just just as far as pure evil. Not to

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00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:24.000
<v Speaker 6>categorize murders because like they're all wrong, but some are.

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<v Speaker 6>You know, when one drug dealer is a dispute over

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<v Speaker 6>drugs and they end up shooting each other, you know

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<v Speaker 6>that person that was murdered. Not saying they deserve to

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<v Speaker 6>be murdered by any means, when I'm saying they put

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<v Speaker 6>themselves in a place that you know that it was

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00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:40.240
<v Speaker 6>a probably not a it was a possibility, maybe not

303
00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:43.559
<v Speaker 6>a probability, but some people just put themselves into place

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00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:47.319
<v Speaker 6>to be a higher risk. These were a person who

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00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:52.200
<v Speaker 6>is just mining their own business, and they're what I

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00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.839
<v Speaker 6>would I I don't want to say true victim, because

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00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:59.400
<v Speaker 6>they're all true victims, but some of them are like

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<v Speaker 6>the one, particularly one I'm leading up to. I guess

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00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:04.799
<v Speaker 6>this case of Smiley Johnson. This was an elderly woman

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<v Speaker 6>about eighty years old, and she was murdered in her home.

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<v Speaker 6>She was stabbed repeatedly, brutally stabbed, and didn't die right

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<v Speaker 6>away and was able to talk to the nine one

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<v Speaker 6>one operator a little bit. She called a friend first

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<v Speaker 6>instead of calling the police, and the friend ran across

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<v Speaker 6>the street to her house, and this lady called nine

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00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:25.240
<v Speaker 6>one one and they were able to talk to her

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00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.039
<v Speaker 6>for a few minutes on the phone, and I was

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<v Speaker 6>able to get that recording and she she described her

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<v Speaker 6>attacker as a young, small white male. She said, I

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<v Speaker 6>thought it was my nephew, so I let him in,

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<v Speaker 6>and you know, obviously it wasn't her nephew, she the

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00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:46.519
<v Speaker 6>way it sounded. And working on that, that case became

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<v Speaker 6>a cold case. After a while, we followed up tons

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<v Speaker 6>of leads. I traveled to Atlanta, and interviewing one of

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00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:55.160
<v Speaker 6>her grandsons. We talked to every nephew just because she

326
00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:58.519
<v Speaker 6>mentioned nephew, we talked to. I traveled to Oklahoma one

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<v Speaker 6>time and interviewed a bankerby's suspect who had lived across

328
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<v Speaker 6>the street from her that it was actually a young female,

329
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:07.799
<v Speaker 6>but when she robbed this bank, they described her as

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<v Speaker 6>a young, small white male, and that just stuck out

331
00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:12.720
<v Speaker 6>to me. So I went to Muscogie, Oklahoma and interviewed

332
00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:16.519
<v Speaker 6>her and thinking maybe she had come across the street

333
00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:18.680
<v Speaker 6>and done this, but there was a lot of dead

334
00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:22.319
<v Speaker 6>end leaves and then I don't remember the exact amount

335
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.160
<v Speaker 6>of time that had gone by off the top of

336
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:29.160
<v Speaker 6>my head, but we got a call we'd interviewed a

337
00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:33.240
<v Speaker 6>great grandson and his cousin. I guess they were both

338
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.279
<v Speaker 6>great grandsons, but different mothers or fathers. I don't remember

339
00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:40.440
<v Speaker 6>the exact relation, but they were two people that had

340
00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:42.759
<v Speaker 6>access to this lady. It had been over there several times.

341
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<v Speaker 6>And uh. We also knew through talking to one of

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00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.799
<v Speaker 6>Smiley's grandsons, not great grandsons, but one of her grandsons,

343
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:53.880
<v Speaker 6>that she had a dog that was her grandson said

344
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.039
<v Speaker 6>this dog would bite anyone that tried to come in.

345
00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.480
<v Speaker 6>There was not a nice dog. It would bite you.

346
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<v Speaker 6>And if this person went in the back door, he

347
00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:02.680
<v Speaker 6>was convinced that it was someone that knew her or

348
00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:06.119
<v Speaker 6>that dog would have attacked him. So we interviewed everybody

349
00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:08.640
<v Speaker 6>we thought might know her, and we interviewed this young man,

350
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<v Speaker 6>Michael Giles, and another young man, and really weren't able

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<v Speaker 6>to get anything out of him. But maybe a little

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<v Speaker 6>over a year later, the other gentleman, and I can't

353
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<v Speaker 6>think of his name off the top of my head,

354
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.519
<v Speaker 6>but he had called us and said that Michael told

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<v Speaker 6>him that he killed his grandmother or his great grandmother,

356
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<v Speaker 6>and so we had basically wired him and he went

357
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<v Speaker 6>and we ended up arresting Michael Giles, and he did confess.

358
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<v Speaker 6>We developed a little bit of a rapport talking and

359
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<v Speaker 6>he he confessed to that murder pretty easily. I mean,

360
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<v Speaker 6>it wasn't like a hard interrogation. He was quite proud

361
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<v Speaker 6>of it. And I asked him why, and he pretty

362
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<v Speaker 6>much told me he wanted to know what it was

363
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<v Speaker 6>like to have sex with a dead person. And that point,

364
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<v Speaker 6>right there, I knew everything he had told me, what

365
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.200
<v Speaker 6>he had done followed every step I had. Him described

366
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:08.759
<v Speaker 6>the offense that he attacked her in a back bedroom,

367
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<v Speaker 6>and I knew that was true because we had luminol

368
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<v Speaker 6>the house we had and it was red shag carpet,

369
00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:15.839
<v Speaker 6>so you couldn't see any blood prints necessarily, but the

370
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<v Speaker 6>luminol brings the blood out, makes it glow in the dark.

371
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<v Speaker 6>And we'd done this at night, and we knew the

372
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<v Speaker 6>footprints led into the bathroom, so we assumed the killer

373
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<v Speaker 6>went in and washed up. We even checked the sink

374
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:28.519
<v Speaker 6>and found blood residue in the sink, so we knew

375
00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.559
<v Speaker 6>he had washed up and before he left. So he

376
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:33.880
<v Speaker 6>described that he went to He told us everything and

377
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.599
<v Speaker 6>everything matched until he come to that sexual assault part.

378
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<v Speaker 6>And I said, well, then why didn't you raperr if

379
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<v Speaker 6>you killed her? And want to know what it was like?

380
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<v Speaker 6>He says, I did raper. I said, Michael, you're lying

381
00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.759
<v Speaker 6>because we had a rape exam done at the medical

382
00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.440
<v Speaker 6>exam in his office and she wasn't sexually assaulted. And

383
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:50.160
<v Speaker 6>he got kind of upset with me and said, I

384
00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:51.920
<v Speaker 6>did rape her. I raped her through one of the

385
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:54.720
<v Speaker 6>stab wounds. And he told me that he licked her

386
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:58.039
<v Speaker 6>intestines and a couple of times during this he'd break

387
00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:01.799
<v Speaker 6>out into chance praising, and I knew what I was

388
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:04.559
<v Speaker 6>talking to him. This is an evil person. I mean,

389
00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:08.519
<v Speaker 6>this was a sick guy. But you know, we we

390
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:11.400
<v Speaker 6>kept a pretty good report. He gave me a statement

391
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:16.599
<v Speaker 6>and this ended up not going to court. He was

392
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:21.000
<v Speaker 6>a juvenile that was certified as an adult and he

393
00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:25.240
<v Speaker 6>was sentenced to thirty years. I think he's eligible for

394
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:29.799
<v Speaker 6>pro this year. Hopefully he's not gonna get it. But anyway,

395
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:34.519
<v Speaker 6>dealing with him kind of let me know that they're

396
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:38.319
<v Speaker 6>even in the wildest craziest movies that you see, they

397
00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:41.599
<v Speaker 6>don't really reflect what is really really out there, and

398
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.119
<v Speaker 6>that is there are some sick people. Uh you know

399
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:48.440
<v Speaker 6>these Friday the thirteenth and all those slasher movies. They

400
00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:52.559
<v Speaker 6>don't show reality. And I started kind of getting a

401
00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.720
<v Speaker 6>grip on reality. What really is out there. There's some

402
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:56.759
<v Speaker 6>crazy people out there.

403
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:01.799
<v Speaker 2>Now you used crazy in terms of the crime. But

404
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:05.279
<v Speaker 2>we talked about her with Steve Jackson. I spoke about

405
00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:09.119
<v Speaker 2>it a both the psychopathic killer, just without a conscience,

406
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:14.119
<v Speaker 2>and he noted that he called it not human because

407
00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:17.079
<v Speaker 2>it seems that's what what makes us human is the

408
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:20.119
<v Speaker 2>empathy and sympathy. If you don't have that, then really

409
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:25.799
<v Speaker 2>you're subhuman anyway. Certainly so when you talked to this

410
00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:28.680
<v Speaker 2>fifteen year old, was the fifteen year old insane or

411
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.000
<v Speaker 2>was it the fifteen year old the psychopathic killer?

412
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.279
<v Speaker 6>Or he was he was a little older when we

413
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:40.200
<v Speaker 6>actually talked to him then. But no, he wasn't insane.

414
00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:43.119
<v Speaker 6>He was just When I say crazy, his actions were crazy,

415
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.559
<v Speaker 6>I mean I don't guess, I mean literally crazy. He

416
00:23:46.599 --> 00:23:48.680
<v Speaker 6>was very aware of what he had done, very aware

417
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.960
<v Speaker 6>of what he wanted to do. I don't think he

418
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.200
<v Speaker 6>had attacked another woman on the next street over and

419
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.039
<v Speaker 6>brutally stabbed her multiple times, and she survived. She wasn't

420
00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:04.079
<v Speaker 6>able to identify him or wouldn't identify him, and so

421
00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:06.440
<v Speaker 6>I knew this guy is he's a He is a

422
00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:10.440
<v Speaker 6>potential serial killer. He the only reason he's not a

423
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:12.880
<v Speaker 6>serial killer is he hasn't wasn't out long enough to

424
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:15.720
<v Speaker 6>kill multiple times. But I think he was killing for

425
00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:20.960
<v Speaker 6>the thrill of it, and that I mean not even

426
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:23.920
<v Speaker 6>I don't think there's even animals in the animal kingdom

427
00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.200
<v Speaker 6>that just kill for the thrill of it. They kill

428
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:27.799
<v Speaker 6>for food, they kill for I think humans are the

429
00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:31.039
<v Speaker 6>only ones that may do that. But this guy was

430
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:35.000
<v Speaker 6>a thrill killer, I think, not a psychiatrist guy.

431
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:38.359
<v Speaker 2>It sounds like all the hallmer Yeah, all the hallmarks

432
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.400
<v Speaker 2>for sure, certainly. Yeah. And then that's a that's a

433
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.680
<v Speaker 2>pretty good preparation because if you have any naivety about

434
00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:48.119
<v Speaker 2>of those kinds of major issues, well you don't have

435
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:54.440
<v Speaker 2>any more, and that certainly can compare you. Now, now

436
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:58.720
<v Speaker 2>they tell us about that, what happens again, I'm not

437
00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:03.680
<v Speaker 2>sure the time frame of when you're next again, So

438
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.720
<v Speaker 2>I apologize to the audience, but your next faithful event

439
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:12.640
<v Speaker 2>is what and tell us what happens the.

440
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:19.400
<v Speaker 6>Next faithful event is basically my first encounter was probably

441
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:22.440
<v Speaker 6>nineteen ninety six. I'm thinking in my head the dates,

442
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:24.839
<v Speaker 6>and that was when I looked into the murder closet

443
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.799
<v Speaker 6>and saw the file, looked at it, and I want

444
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:29.720
<v Speaker 6>to say it was probably about nineteen ninety eight, so

445
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.559
<v Speaker 6>it may have been about two years that Tammy Lopez

446
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:36.160
<v Speaker 6>had called me. And then in two thousand and I

447
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:37.920
<v Speaker 6>don't remember specifically that they don't have my notes in

448
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.839
<v Speaker 6>front of me, but somewhere in two thousand I was

449
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:44.759
<v Speaker 6>again at During that between eleven and twelve o'clock hour.

450
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:46.640
<v Speaker 6>I'm sitting there in the phone starts ringing around the

451
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:49.000
<v Speaker 6>room again, which is not really that uncommon a thing.

452
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:52.279
<v Speaker 6>So I sat and waited for it to hit my

453
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:56.119
<v Speaker 6>line and answered, and the secretary told me that there

454
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.440
<v Speaker 6>was a Fort Worth detective on the phone that wanted

455
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:01.920
<v Speaker 6>to speak to an investigator, in which that's relatively common thing,

456
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:04.759
<v Speaker 6>nothing out of the ordinary about that. Usually want help

457
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:07.160
<v Speaker 6>with something, and you know, we try to do everything

458
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:09.319
<v Speaker 6>we can to help each other out. So I told

459
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:11.559
<v Speaker 6>her to transfer her back, and the lady got on

460
00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:13.960
<v Speaker 6>the phone as a detective Diane Teff from Fort Worth

461
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:18.799
<v Speaker 6>Police Department, and she explained to me that she had

462
00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:21.000
<v Speaker 6>received a letter from an inmate in a prison in

463
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:25.640
<v Speaker 6>Ohio about a child homicide that they had there, and

464
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:27.440
<v Speaker 6>she was explaining to me this was a little girl

465
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:30.480
<v Speaker 6>by the name of Julie Fuller, I think was maybe

466
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:34.319
<v Speaker 6>twelve or fourteen or something like that, and that this

467
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.400
<v Speaker 6>inmate was telling her that he had a suspect. And

468
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.200
<v Speaker 6>I'm still not snapping on Pennon or anything, even having

469
00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:46.119
<v Speaker 6>read that, until she mentions that this guy says that

470
00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:49.920
<v Speaker 6>his sellmate also mentioned killing a little girl in Garland

471
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.319
<v Speaker 6>by the name of Roxanne Reyes, and then my lights

472
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.839
<v Speaker 6>went off. I thought, oh hey, and she said, I

473
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:00.039
<v Speaker 6>have an appointment for him to call me in the

474
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:02.400
<v Speaker 6>morning at eight or eight thirty, I don't remember this

475
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:04.960
<v Speaker 6>exact time. And she said, if you would like to

476
00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:08.079
<v Speaker 6>be here, I'm offering that to you to come here

477
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:11.200
<v Speaker 6>and talk to him. And I said, oh, absolutely, Well,

478
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:16.000
<v Speaker 6>my supervisor at the time was at lunch, and when

479
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.400
<v Speaker 6>he came back in I asked him about it, and

480
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:18.880
<v Speaker 6>he goes, oh, shoot you out. He said, let's go.

481
00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.880
<v Speaker 6>He said, I'll go with you and and him, the

482
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:24.480
<v Speaker 6>other detective I was talking about that like to go

483
00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.759
<v Speaker 6>into murder clause with me, is Charles Rena. We were

484
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:30.799
<v Speaker 6>good friends. We all three. Next morning drove the fort

485
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.160
<v Speaker 6>Worth and waited on that phone call, and he called

486
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:36.279
<v Speaker 6>right on time, exactly when he said he would, and

487
00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:39.119
<v Speaker 6>she spoke with him for several minutes and then got

488
00:27:39.160 --> 00:27:40.799
<v Speaker 6>what she wanted and handed the phone to me, and

489
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:44.960
<v Speaker 6>I was able to question him about a few things

490
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:46.880
<v Speaker 6>about the case that I knew I had I had

491
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:48.559
<v Speaker 6>actually pulled it out and read a little bit more

492
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:50.759
<v Speaker 6>so i'd know more facts like what she was wearing,

493
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:54.000
<v Speaker 6>just a few things that we wanted to know and

494
00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:56.359
<v Speaker 6>see how much he could tell me. And everything he

495
00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:00.480
<v Speaker 6>told me was exactly correct, so it you know, it

496
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:02.240
<v Speaker 6>did give me a lot of hope. I mean, I

497
00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:05.279
<v Speaker 6>was excited about the information. But we were only able

498
00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:07.359
<v Speaker 6>to talk for just a few minutes before he had

499
00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:10.160
<v Speaker 6>ten minutes on a recorded on a line before it

500
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:13.000
<v Speaker 6>would cut off. So we talked maybe four or five minutes.

501
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:16.319
<v Speaker 6>But I did give him my phone number. He was

502
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:19.319
<v Speaker 6>still in contact with Detective Teft. But after we got

503
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:22.160
<v Speaker 6>off the phone, you know, we were pretty pumped up.

504
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:24.799
<v Speaker 6>She was pumped up about her case. She set up

505
00:28:24.839 --> 00:28:29.200
<v Speaker 6>a meeting with every agency in Texas basically that had

506
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:31.839
<v Speaker 6>a case of a missing child in the time frame

507
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:34.880
<v Speaker 6>they had done a timeline on him, I think from

508
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:39.319
<v Speaker 6>nineteen eighty four through eighty nine, I believe, or eighty eight,

509
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.039
<v Speaker 6>whenever it was he was arrested. I think it was

510
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:44.759
<v Speaker 6>eighty eight. They had done a timeline to you know,

511
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.559
<v Speaker 6>in any case between that time frame. They invited to

512
00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:51.440
<v Speaker 6>come to forth and speak about the case. And that

513
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:53.519
<v Speaker 6>was our next step was to make that meeting.

514
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so how many you only had the one conversation

515
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:05.920
<v Speaker 2>with Sonny COALB and then you have this meeting that's

516
00:29:06.039 --> 00:29:09.720
<v Speaker 2>organized to look at other missing children cases in Texas

517
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:12.079
<v Speaker 2>and other jurisdictions.

518
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:15.960
<v Speaker 6>I believe I may have. I think I may have

519
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:19.279
<v Speaker 6>spoke to him of maybe another time, don't I really

520
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:21.480
<v Speaker 6>don't remember for sure, but I think I did talk

521
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:23.119
<v Speaker 6>to him. I gave him my number, and I think

522
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.000
<v Speaker 6>I did talk to him maybe once or twice before

523
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:27.160
<v Speaker 6>that meeting, right, and was able to get a little

524
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:31.680
<v Speaker 6>bit more information, But they were not really ventful conversations.

525
00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:34.000
<v Speaker 6>But we did have a meeting. I was surprised at

526
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.960
<v Speaker 6>the turnout of how many cases there was out there

527
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:44.839
<v Speaker 6>in Texas, and then after we all anywhere that case. Oh,

528
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:47.640
<v Speaker 6>you would have to ask me that there were probably

529
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:56.799
<v Speaker 6>maybe twelve to fifteen different agencies represented there. I want

530
00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:01.799
<v Speaker 6>to guess that many there were. There were there were

531
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:06.440
<v Speaker 6>quite a few between I would say around twelve and

532
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.839
<v Speaker 6>now I'm guessing, but I remember a few of them specifically,

533
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:13.079
<v Speaker 6>but there were others that ended up not being closely

534
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.519
<v Speaker 6>related at all. And I know there's some that weren't

535
00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:17.839
<v Speaker 6>there that had cases that later we were able to find.

536
00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:23.960
<v Speaker 6>But after that meeting, we were adjourned and Diane said

537
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:27.000
<v Speaker 6>that they had DNA on the Julie Fuller case, and

538
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:29.720
<v Speaker 6>she said they were having Penton's DNA compared to that

539
00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:32.160
<v Speaker 6>and when that result came back, she would let me

540
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.759
<v Speaker 6>know and they would go from there. Well, the few

541
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:36.599
<v Speaker 6>days later she called and said the DNA came back

542
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:40.599
<v Speaker 6>and it is not Penton. And so I was felt

543
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:48.839
<v Speaker 6>really like, oh, you know, let down. But we I

544
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:52.079
<v Speaker 6>told she said, Sonny Cap, she's gonna drop the I'm

545
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.319
<v Speaker 6>sorry that our informant. She said, we're going to drop

546
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:58.920
<v Speaker 6>him and not talk to him anymore. And uh, I said, well,

547
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:01.160
<v Speaker 6>tell him to call me. I'll I'll talk to him

548
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:04.119
<v Speaker 6>a little bit more because I just wasn't didn't feel

549
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:06.440
<v Speaker 6>like I wanted to give it up that easy because

550
00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:10.119
<v Speaker 6>he had so much information about ours. And so he

551
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:12.240
<v Speaker 6>did call me, and uh, I was able to ask him.

552
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:16.319
<v Speaker 6>I said, why is this information you're giving turning out

553
00:31:16.359 --> 00:31:16.920
<v Speaker 6>to be false?

554
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:17.279
<v Speaker 4>Uh?

555
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:20.279
<v Speaker 6>You know you you sounded so credible on your Uh

556
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:22.519
<v Speaker 6>this is not good information. He says. I didn't say

557
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:25.519
<v Speaker 6>that David Pinton killed Julie Ford. He says, I told

558
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.200
<v Speaker 6>her in my letter that you would do well to

559
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:32.400
<v Speaker 6>look at him as a suspect. And uh, that's not

560
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:35.359
<v Speaker 6>what I was told originally, but I had. I called

561
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:37.519
<v Speaker 6>Diane tep back and I said, would you send fax

562
00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:39.119
<v Speaker 6>me a copy of that letter? And she did, and

563
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:41.640
<v Speaker 6>that's exactly what the letter said. And I asked him

564
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:43.079
<v Speaker 6>why did he do that? And he says, well, he's

565
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:48.680
<v Speaker 6>bragged about killing kids so much that he says, I

566
00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:50.960
<v Speaker 6>have done some research. And I I thought that was

567
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:53.559
<v Speaker 6>one that sounded like he would have done. He says,

568
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:55.960
<v Speaker 6>I know for a fact he did, and he named

569
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:59.039
<v Speaker 6>off several and and Roxane Rens was one of them.

570
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:00.880
<v Speaker 6>I said, why do you know that he goes? Because

571
00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:03.400
<v Speaker 6>he mentions him by name, He knows him, and he

572
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:06.279
<v Speaker 6>knows too much about him. And I was still a

573
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:11.920
<v Speaker 6>little bit skeptical, but I had to listen to him.

574
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:15.680
<v Speaker 2>Did he mention besides Roxane Res, did he mention Christy

575
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:17.559
<v Speaker 2>Meeks or Christy Christie.

576
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:21.279
<v Speaker 6>Procter at all? Yes, he mentioned both. He mentioned all

577
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:27.720
<v Speaker 6>three of those girls. I was in touch. Yes, I'm sorry,

578
00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:31.720
<v Speaker 6>go ahead, go ahead, I was. I was in touch

579
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:34.480
<v Speaker 6>with a Mosquite investigator at the time. We were we

580
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:36.279
<v Speaker 6>were talking back and forth, and he also was talking

581
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:41.720
<v Speaker 6>to Sonny cab Too, our informant. He was. We were

582
00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:44.400
<v Speaker 6>both dealing with him on the phone, and and after

583
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:49.000
<v Speaker 6>a while we started hearing things about him that maybe

584
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:51.359
<v Speaker 6>other investigators had dealt with him in the past, and

585
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:57.200
<v Speaker 6>he was not a very credible person, not a not

586
00:32:57.319 --> 00:33:00.880
<v Speaker 6>trustworthy and and then we even found out that he

587
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:03.839
<v Speaker 6>had filed for open records and gotten open records on

588
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:07.480
<v Speaker 6>these cases. And and now the investigator that I was

589
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:10.279
<v Speaker 6>dealing with told me, he says, I don't trust him,

590
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.319
<v Speaker 6>and uh, since the information he gave to fort Worth

591
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:15.119
<v Speaker 6>wasn't any good, because I don't think I'm gonna talk

592
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:20.640
<v Speaker 6>to him anymore. And I was pretty much almost feeling

593
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:24.119
<v Speaker 6>the same way. But I told him, I I think

594
00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:26.279
<v Speaker 6>I'm gonna keep talking to him for a while. I

595
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:30.400
<v Speaker 6>just I don't. I mean, it was just that unseene

596
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:35.240
<v Speaker 6>driving force, call it what you want. I felt like

597
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:40.279
<v Speaker 6>it was God pushing me to go I don't to

598
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.160
<v Speaker 6>not give this up. Something was definitely telling me not

599
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:45.359
<v Speaker 6>to give it up. My common sense was telling me

600
00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:47.680
<v Speaker 6>to give it up. But my spirit inside of me

601
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.519
<v Speaker 6>was telling me to go push, go, go forward. And

602
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:52.039
<v Speaker 6>so I said, I'm gonna keep talking to him for

603
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:55.640
<v Speaker 6>a while, and I would I questioned him, I said,

604
00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:57.960
<v Speaker 6>why did you file open records? You your credibility is

605
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.799
<v Speaker 6>worthless with us. You you everything you've told you read

606
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:03.559
<v Speaker 6>in a file. You know this is worthless information. Now

607
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:05.880
<v Speaker 6>I can't trust anything you said. And he said, well,

608
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:07.880
<v Speaker 6>if you lived in a twelve x twelve room with

609
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.760
<v Speaker 6>a guy that does nothing about but brag about killing people,

610
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:12.559
<v Speaker 6>he says, you'd want to know if he's telling the truth.

611
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:14.119
<v Speaker 6>He said, I pulled those so I could see this

612
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:16.440
<v Speaker 6>guy's telling me the truth. And he said, he is

613
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:19.440
<v Speaker 6>telling me the truth. He did these, and so we

614
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.159
<v Speaker 6>filled we sent away for the open records that he

615
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:23.800
<v Speaker 6>got to see what he got. And I found out

616
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.119
<v Speaker 6>he did not get all of the open records that

617
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:29.119
<v Speaker 6>we thought. He didn't have the information. So the rest

618
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:32.559
<v Speaker 6>of the there's almost a maybe a year spent just

619
00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:35.199
<v Speaker 6>trying to build this guy's credibility up in my own mind,

620
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.400
<v Speaker 6>not in anybody else, that's just my own mind. I

621
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:41.760
<v Speaker 6>was having to try to convince myself that he was credible,

622
00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:46.000
<v Speaker 6>and everything he told me that I checked on proved

623
00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:50.280
<v Speaker 6>to be true. I couldn't. I couldn't disprove anything, so

624
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:55.280
<v Speaker 6>he you know, I just had to keep listening to him.

625
00:34:55.880 --> 00:35:01.119
<v Speaker 2>Now you obviously asked him in interviews, in these ten

626
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:06.480
<v Speaker 2>minute interviews, exactly how he came to talk like he said, Well,

627
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.199
<v Speaker 2>he always mentioned you asked him, how well, how do

628
00:35:09.199 --> 00:35:12.920
<v Speaker 2>you know well, because he mentioned these murder victims by name,

629
00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:19.280
<v Speaker 2>tell us what gradually, little tidbits of information you did

630
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:26.719
<v Speaker 2>gather to corroborate to some degree that certainly you thought

631
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:31.599
<v Speaker 2>that Penton had actually done these murders with Christy Meeks,

632
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Christy Proctor, and Roxane Reees.

633
00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:41.039
<v Speaker 6>The biggest thing that helped me was that on the

634
00:35:41.039 --> 00:35:44.199
<v Speaker 6>open records, he did not get Roxane Rees's file. They

635
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:46.159
<v Speaker 6>would not give that one to him for some reason.

636
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:48.079
<v Speaker 6>And I don't know why they gave him the other ones.

637
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:49.960
<v Speaker 6>They gave him the other ones, but they were blacked out.

638
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:52.880
<v Speaker 6>Almost all the pertinent information was marked out before he

639
00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:56.039
<v Speaker 6>couldn't read it. Any names were marked out. He got

640
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:58.360
<v Speaker 6>very little information. And when I saw what he got,

641
00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:01.360
<v Speaker 6>I thought, you know, he could get enough out of

642
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:04.480
<v Speaker 6>it to develop enough information to convince someone he knew something.

643
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:06.960
<v Speaker 6>But he got nothing on Rocks and Rest. They wouldn't

644
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.639
<v Speaker 6>give him that file. They said it's still open, And

645
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:11.760
<v Speaker 6>so I knew that what he was telling me about

646
00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:15.039
<v Speaker 6>that when he couldn't get it from those open records,

647
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.800
<v Speaker 6>so he had to be hearing it from somewhere. And

648
00:36:18.159 --> 00:36:19.880
<v Speaker 6>I checked with the prison to see if he got

649
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:22.559
<v Speaker 6>access to the internet, and he did not. He didn't

650
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.000
<v Speaker 6>have access to get it anywhere other than hearing it.

651
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:28.920
<v Speaker 6>So that was the biggest thing that kept my hopes alive.

652
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:33.960
<v Speaker 6>That and then he brought up I guess what he

653
00:36:34.039 --> 00:36:37.440
<v Speaker 6>knows that I'm digging for credibility from him? And I

654
00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:39.360
<v Speaker 6>guess he got a brainstorm one day and he told me,

655
00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:40.840
<v Speaker 6>he goes, you need to find the little girl by

656
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:43.400
<v Speaker 6>the name of Tiffany Ibera, And I said, well, who

657
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:46.000
<v Speaker 6>is she? And he said, that's a little girl that

658
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:50.719
<v Speaker 6>he kidnapped and he let go. And I thought, well,

659
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.440
<v Speaker 6>why would he let her go? He first tells me

660
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:54.880
<v Speaker 6>that Pentton told him a crazy story about the little

661
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:59.320
<v Speaker 6>girl's dad wanting him to kidnap her to scare her.

662
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.079
<v Speaker 6>And he didn't believe that story, and I didn't either

663
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:04.119
<v Speaker 6>after a while of listening to it. Why would this

664
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.199
<v Speaker 6>guy hire a child pedophile to could have his daughter

665
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:09.679
<v Speaker 6>to scare her, and especially a guy that didn't even

666
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:14.239
<v Speaker 6>live around there. But that we did look and find

667
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:18.239
<v Speaker 6>Tiffany Ibera and she was living in Bay Saint Louis,

668
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:20.480
<v Speaker 6>Mississippi at the time, which was pretty good distance away.

669
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:22.639
<v Speaker 6>But it took me a while to get contact with

670
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:24.960
<v Speaker 6>her because I couldn't find a phone number, had to

671
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:26.719
<v Speaker 6>actually have the sheriffs department drive to her house and

672
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:29.280
<v Speaker 6>have her call me in It was probably maybe a

673
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:31.920
<v Speaker 6>week a week and a half later she called and

674
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:34.880
<v Speaker 6>I talked to her over the phone and she said

675
00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:37.360
<v Speaker 6>that she was the Tiffany Iberta that was abducted in

676
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:42.119
<v Speaker 6>this neighbor in Dallas back then. And she I said,

677
00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:44.199
<v Speaker 6>do you think you'd remember him? And she said absolutely,

678
00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:46.039
<v Speaker 6>I'd never forget his face. And that was she was

679
00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:50.360
<v Speaker 6>kind of getting me a little bit optimistic, and then

680
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:54.039
<v Speaker 6>she dropped a bombshell on me. She told me I

681
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.079
<v Speaker 6>actually had pulled the report from Dallas too. I had

682
00:37:57.079 --> 00:37:59.440
<v Speaker 6>the report sent to me and had it sitting in

683
00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.480
<v Speaker 6>front of me, and her memory was outstanding what she

684
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:05.039
<v Speaker 6>was telling me, and she said, I'm alive, by the

685
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:06.519
<v Speaker 6>grace of God. And I said, yeah, you were a

686
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:08.679
<v Speaker 6>very lucky girl, because he you know, he's a bad guy,

687
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:11.079
<v Speaker 6>and she said, yeah, he kidnapped a little girl from

688
00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.199
<v Speaker 6>my school three days later and killed her. And I'm like,

689
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:17.599
<v Speaker 6>what I did. I had not put the pieces together.

690
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:21.679
<v Speaker 6>I didn't have the files on Christie Meeks or Christie Proctor.

691
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:23.559
<v Speaker 6>I just had rocks and raised files. I didn't know

692
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:27.079
<v Speaker 6>any really details about their cases. Knew, you know, I

693
00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:31.880
<v Speaker 6>knew some basic facts, but not any details. And she said, yeah,

694
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.079
<v Speaker 6>that Christi Proctor went to school with her, and I'm

695
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:38.119
<v Speaker 6>kind of floored by that. And I looked at the

696
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:41.800
<v Speaker 6>report where she was abducted. She was abducted on Waterfall

697
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:44.320
<v Speaker 6>Lane is where Tiffany was, And I looked I did

698
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:47.679
<v Speaker 6>have some information about Christie Proctor and found out she

699
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:49.960
<v Speaker 6>was also abducted on Waterfall They were off taken from

700
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:52.360
<v Speaker 6>the same street. And I had not seen that until

701
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:55.039
<v Speaker 6>she said it. That was just something I had overlooked.

702
00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:57.880
<v Speaker 6>It didn't dawn on me. And so now I'm very

703
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:02.519
<v Speaker 6>interested three days apart on the same street, that's putting

704
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:05.360
<v Speaker 6>him in the area, if that's him. And that was

705
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.559
<v Speaker 6>a huge piece movie.

706
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:13.119
<v Speaker 2>The question the audience might have right now is, of

707
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:16.280
<v Speaker 2>course Tiffany Iberia. And we didn't say what age she was.

708
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:19.000
<v Speaker 2>She was a little bit older, like say nine, I believe,

709
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:20.920
<v Speaker 2>and you cracked me.

710
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:24.400
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I'm off the top of my head, I can't

711
00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:27.639
<v Speaker 6>remember either out nine ten somewhere in the area.

712
00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:31.440
<v Speaker 2>You're a little bit older compared to Rocks. And so

713
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:37.119
<v Speaker 2>the thing is that, of course the police were notified

714
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:39.679
<v Speaker 2>there was a report or was.

715
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:44.440
<v Speaker 6>There, Yes, there was a report on Tiffany's case. I

716
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:48.079
<v Speaker 6>was told when I talked to some investigators later about

717
00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:52.000
<v Speaker 6>that that in the very beginning, they somewhat maybe didn't

718
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.159
<v Speaker 6>believe her she had They thought maybe she was just

719
00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:56.920
<v Speaker 6>trying to get out of school or something, which is

720
00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:00.239
<v Speaker 6>I don't have anything to confirm this as a fact.

721
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:04.880
<v Speaker 6>What he did when he kidnapped her was he grabbed her.

722
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.840
<v Speaker 6>She was walking, she'd headed to school, and a bird

723
00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:10.320
<v Speaker 6>had defecated on her clothes, and she went home and

724
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:12.880
<v Speaker 6>changed clothes, and all her friends that she walked to

725
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:15.239
<v Speaker 6>school with had already gone, so she was alone. And

726
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:18.039
<v Speaker 6>she saw this man walking towards her in a get

727
00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:21.440
<v Speaker 6>out of a van, and and something in her told

728
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:23.239
<v Speaker 6>her this wasn't good, and she tried to run, and

729
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:25.239
<v Speaker 6>he grabbed her by her backpack and drug her into

730
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:29.119
<v Speaker 6>the van. And according to her, according to Tiffany, all

731
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:31.760
<v Speaker 6>he did was he took out a cell phone, which

732
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:36.159
<v Speaker 6>is an old phone. We called him bagphones. It was

733
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:39.079
<v Speaker 6>just a big bag you had to carry with a

734
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:42.599
<v Speaker 6>suction antenna that stuck on the window, but that was

735
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:46.039
<v Speaker 6>the early cell phones. And told her to call her

736
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:49.039
<v Speaker 6>mother and tell her she's been kidnapped, and so she did,

737
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:51.119
<v Speaker 6>and then he took the phone away from her and

738
00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:54.000
<v Speaker 6>hung it up, and he ended up telling her to

739
00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:55.679
<v Speaker 6>get out and that if he ever sees her again,

740
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:58.280
<v Speaker 6>she won't be so lucky that he'll kill her. And

741
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:01.920
<v Speaker 6>she ran home. He followed her home, and the mother

742
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:06.159
<v Speaker 6>I think maybe probably believed her because she had gotten

743
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.719
<v Speaker 6>a phone call, but she wasn't real sure. They drove

744
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.599
<v Speaker 6>around and looked for this van, didn't see anything, and

745
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:11.880
<v Speaker 6>then they took her to school, and I'm not sure

746
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:14.760
<v Speaker 6>how much the school believed or not, but they did

747
00:41:14.800 --> 00:41:17.760
<v Speaker 6>call the police and the report was made. And then

748
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:20.639
<v Speaker 6>three days later, I think when Christy Frocter came up missing,

749
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:24.159
<v Speaker 6>they went back to Tiffany and had her do a composite.

750
00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:26.079
<v Speaker 6>They got a little bit more interested in her story

751
00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:30.360
<v Speaker 6>later because they knew for absolute sure this was probably

752
00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:33.360
<v Speaker 6>the same guy. I guess absolute sure, and probably don't

753
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:36.920
<v Speaker 6>go together, but they assumed it could be the same guy.

754
00:41:38.320 --> 00:41:43.880
<v Speaker 2>And now looking at that composite, how close of a

755
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:47.320
<v Speaker 2>was that composite to what Penton looked like?

756
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:53.760
<v Speaker 6>That was probably not a great one. I'm not a

757
00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:58.360
<v Speaker 6>big fan of those, I just in my career they've

758
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:04.400
<v Speaker 6>not ever really been that effective until this case. And

759
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:06.960
<v Speaker 6>there were two composites done, one on the mesquite one

760
00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:11.599
<v Speaker 6>and one on ours that were just dead ringers for

761
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:16.400
<v Speaker 6>him at that time, the Tiffany Iberie, I didn't think

762
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:19.679
<v Speaker 6>it was a very good one, just put it that way.

763
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:22.599
<v Speaker 6>It had the basics then now, but.

764
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:32.320
<v Speaker 2>Now that really obviously confirms that you have your man

765
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:37.280
<v Speaker 2>in terms of Sunny Cow, and you have that information corroborated.

766
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.639
<v Speaker 2>So how do you proceed now with what you believed

767
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:44.079
<v Speaker 2>to be some really good, strong evidence against Penton.

768
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:48.960
<v Speaker 6>Well, a lot of this had been going on over

769
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:53.239
<v Speaker 6>a pretty good period of time, and I was basically

770
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:55.519
<v Speaker 6>doing this in my spare time. I still had my

771
00:42:55.599 --> 00:43:01.400
<v Speaker 6>regular cases coming in daily, I was still working everything

772
00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:03.280
<v Speaker 6>I normally work, and I was doing this in my

773
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:07.039
<v Speaker 6>spare time basically, so someone and Sunny Keb was giving

774
00:43:07.079 --> 00:43:09.599
<v Speaker 6>me so much information At times I tried to take

775
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:11.519
<v Speaker 6>notes and keep up with it. But it got it

776
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:14.400
<v Speaker 6>really got overwhelming, Uh, to try to keep up with everything.

777
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:16.159
<v Speaker 6>He was telling me about cases all over the country.

778
00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:19.360
<v Speaker 6>And at first I tried to to you know, I

779
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:21.719
<v Speaker 6>I you know, I didn't wanna let any child case go.

780
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:23.119
<v Speaker 6>I I mean, I thought I need to I need

781
00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:24.639
<v Speaker 6>to be on top of all this. Well, it got

782
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:26.079
<v Speaker 6>to the point where I couldn't keep up with all

783
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:28.960
<v Speaker 6>of it. Just it would be confusing on the phone.

784
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:30.840
<v Speaker 6>I wouldn't know really which one he's taught. It just

785
00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:34.639
<v Speaker 6>got too much to handle. So I basically told myself,

786
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:38.400
<v Speaker 6>we're gonna focus on the ones here and we'll come

787
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:40.239
<v Speaker 6>back to those when we're done. We'll just I have

788
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:42.880
<v Speaker 6>to just stick to my case. And of course my

789
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:45.599
<v Speaker 6>case I felt like involved, uh CHRISTI mex and Christy

790
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:50.119
<v Speaker 6>Proctor because we all felt they were connected. But I

791
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:55.079
<v Speaker 6>I went to Mosquite. Uh. Mike Bradshaw was the investigator

792
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:57.440
<v Speaker 6>that I originally dealt with, and Mike is a friend

793
00:43:57.480 --> 00:43:59.880
<v Speaker 6>of mine, and I was gonna go talk to him

794
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:01.840
<v Speaker 6>and see if I could get him back interested in it.

795
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:04.840
<v Speaker 6>And he told me before that the biggest problem they

796
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:09.280
<v Speaker 6>had with Penton in the beginning was that they couldn't

797
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.760
<v Speaker 6>put him in Oklahoma and where Christy Mack's body was

798
00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:13.920
<v Speaker 6>dumped at Lake Texoma, and they really couldn't put him

799
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:16.480
<v Speaker 6>in the area here. There was just a lot of

800
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:20.440
<v Speaker 6>things wrong, and he didn't really trust Sunnycap. And I

801
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:26.079
<v Speaker 6>agreed with him on Sunny Cap pretty much. But I'd

802
00:44:26.119 --> 00:44:30.719
<v Speaker 6>found in our file a statement that had been taken

803
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:36.880
<v Speaker 6>from Penton's sister that she was basically saying she would

804
00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:40.280
<v Speaker 6>not ever be around him again because she didn't want

805
00:44:40.280 --> 00:44:43.079
<v Speaker 6>her children around him, because she felt like he was dangerous.

806
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:45.360
<v Speaker 6>And even she even said in the statement, I feel

807
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:47.840
<v Speaker 6>like he did kill those girls in Texas. And that

808
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:51.679
<v Speaker 6>was literally in her written statement that the Ohio investigators

809
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:54.880
<v Speaker 6>had taken. And I noticed the address on that statement

810
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:57.159
<v Speaker 6>was Oklahoma. I don't remember the specific city off the

811
00:44:57.199 --> 00:44:58.519
<v Speaker 6>top of my head. I don't remember if I can

812
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:01.760
<v Speaker 6>even pronounce it, but she lived in Oklahoma. And then

813
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:05.639
<v Speaker 6>I also read later that he would drive and visit

814
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:08.320
<v Speaker 6>his sister occasionally, so I knew, Okay, well, he's been

815
00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:09.000
<v Speaker 6>in Oklahoma.

816
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:12.920
<v Speaker 5>So I went to Judy was born Hello. Then Judy

817
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:14.920
<v Speaker 5>discovered chumba casino dot com.

818
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:18.199
<v Speaker 4>It's my little escape now Judy's the life of the party.

819
00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:20.400
<v Speaker 4>Oh baby, Mama's bringing home the bacon.

820
00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:24.519
<v Speaker 5>WHOA take it easy, Judy the Chumba life.

821
00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:25.400
<v Speaker 4>That's for everybody.

822
00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:28.079
<v Speaker 5>So go to chumpacasino dot com and play over one

823
00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:31.199
<v Speaker 5>hundred casino style games joined today and play for free

824
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:33.599
<v Speaker 5>for your chance to redeem some serious prices.

825
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:38.039
<v Speaker 4>Chumpa casino dot com No just necessary point. We're fitted

826
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:39.719
<v Speaker 4>by e tem plus terms and conditions to place. Let's

827
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:40.239
<v Speaker 4>every details.

828
00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:41.760
<v Speaker 6>I was gonna go talk to Mike because hey, look

829
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:45.199
<v Speaker 6>I found some information that he was in Oklahoma. Well,

830
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:47.639
<v Speaker 6>when I went to talk to Mike, he had been

831
00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:50.920
<v Speaker 6>transferred to another division in the police department. I was

832
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:53.280
<v Speaker 6>kind of upset. I thought, darn it, I don't know

833
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:55.840
<v Speaker 6>the new guy. Well, the new guy was Bruce Bradshaw,

834
00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:58.960
<v Speaker 6>no relation to each other, but I had never met Bruce.

835
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.599
<v Speaker 6>And they said he's the new sergeant over the crimes

836
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:04.519
<v Speaker 6>against persons there Mesquite, and I said, well, let me

837
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:06.679
<v Speaker 6>talk to him. So I went and the first time

838
00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:09.039
<v Speaker 6>I met Bruce, and I started running it down to Bruce.

839
00:46:09.639 --> 00:46:12.519
<v Speaker 6>And this was probably the greatest thing that happened in

840
00:46:12.519 --> 00:46:17.480
<v Speaker 6>this investigation for me, because Bruce had actually been one

841
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:19.719
<v Speaker 6>of the detectives that had been called out on the

842
00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:22.400
<v Speaker 6>Christie Meeks case and had a great deal of knowledge

843
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:24.960
<v Speaker 6>about the early early things that I didn't have. I

844
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:28.320
<v Speaker 6>wasn't there, So Bruce was very, very interested in what

845
00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:31.480
<v Speaker 6>I was saying, and really from that point on he

846
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:36.559
<v Speaker 6>jumped on board full force and we developed the team.

847
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:41.280
<v Speaker 6>Bruce brought in one of his guys, Don Phillips, excellent

848
00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:47.320
<v Speaker 6>excellent investigator, and us three worked together on that from

849
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:50.559
<v Speaker 6>that point on until some time later. We got we

850
00:46:50.599 --> 00:46:53.280
<v Speaker 6>had to get Plano involved because that was where the

851
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:55.880
<v Speaker 6>Christi Procter case stemmed, and we got another guy by

852
00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:00.679
<v Speaker 6>the name of Billy Meeks who wed in word cases

853
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:04.039
<v Speaker 6>with other agencies involved, there's egos, there's you know, departments

854
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:06.039
<v Speaker 6>don't want other departments to get It's just there's a

855
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:08.199
<v Speaker 6>lot of egos involved with There were no egos in

856
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:10.679
<v Speaker 6>this this team. It was the best team I've ever

857
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:14.440
<v Speaker 6>been on and any thing I've ever done, we worked

858
00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:17.960
<v Speaker 6>together great and I think every one of these guys

859
00:47:18.000 --> 00:47:22.599
<v Speaker 6>were top notch detectives. It was, in my opinion, I

860
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.119
<v Speaker 6>was working with the dream team of detectives. It was

861
00:47:25.159 --> 00:47:29.880
<v Speaker 6>a great group of guys and we just everything clicked

862
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:33.960
<v Speaker 6>and and from that point on we were able to

863
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:36.000
<v Speaker 6>divide up the task kind of focus on our own

864
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:40.239
<v Speaker 6>cases and uh and that just that helped so much.

865
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:44.599
<v Speaker 6>It was I can't even describe how much better things went.

866
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:50.360
<v Speaker 6>So it was kind of another divine intervention that Bruce

867
00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:53.039
<v Speaker 6>was transferred in there. Not that Mike wouldn't have done

868
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:55.880
<v Speaker 6>a great job, but Bruce just had the knowledge that

869
00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:58.599
<v Speaker 6>of that case from the beginning.

870
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:04.440
<v Speaker 2>And it's very important. One thing is that there's apparently

871
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:09.440
<v Speaker 2>Sonny cowbs A is conversing with Penton, and Penton says,

872
00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:12.159
<v Speaker 2>if you really want to hide something, stick it in

873
00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:14.519
<v Speaker 2>the insulation, because the cops are are not going to

874
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:17.880
<v Speaker 2>go up there and get themselves dirty looking up there.

875
00:48:18.679 --> 00:48:22.400
<v Speaker 2>So with that prompting, what do you and your team.

876
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:26.360
<v Speaker 6>Do well when we do make a trip to finally

877
00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:28.880
<v Speaker 6>meet in person Sonny cabin interview. That was also a

878
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:32.440
<v Speaker 6>plan that we would go to his home that he

879
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:36.519
<v Speaker 6>grew up in in Columbus and go up in the

880
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:39.679
<v Speaker 6>attic and check in the insulation. Knowing, you know, just

881
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:42.599
<v Speaker 6>that some serial killers were you know, would take a

882
00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:45.199
<v Speaker 6>souvenir to relive their experience. They might take a memento

883
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:48.519
<v Speaker 6>from it, and so I think when he was arrested

884
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:51.480
<v Speaker 6>on the najarass case, there were some little girl's panties

885
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:54.199
<v Speaker 6>recovered and some other items that were recovered from that

886
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:56.960
<v Speaker 6>one that were never able to link them to anyone.

887
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.280
<v Speaker 6>So we thought, well, there may be some items there

888
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:05.960
<v Speaker 6>in his attic that we could you know, we may

889
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:08.840
<v Speaker 6>we may get lucky. So we we did go look

890
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:14.800
<v Speaker 6>through the attic. We found Don Phillips. Actually this attic

891
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.320
<v Speaker 6>was there was no insulation, as we have them here

892
00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:20.159
<v Speaker 6>in Texas where our houses are built differently, I guess

893
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:23.039
<v Speaker 6>the different climates, but the insulation was tacked to the

894
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:28.159
<v Speaker 6>actual roof on the inside. Ours is blown in. It's

895
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:29.760
<v Speaker 6>it's kind of different. So we didn't really have to

896
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:34.280
<v Speaker 6>dig through insulation. But there were boards over the rafters

897
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:36.679
<v Speaker 6>and we had to kind of crawl on our bellies

898
00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:39.679
<v Speaker 6>and look underneath those boards. And Don found something unusually

899
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:41.039
<v Speaker 6>when he had to kind of fish it out and

900
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:43.280
<v Speaker 6>get it, and then it was a It was a

901
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:47.400
<v Speaker 6>a big bundle of rags tied with yarn, and I

902
00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:49.000
<v Speaker 6>mean we were all like, oh, this is it. We

903
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.239
<v Speaker 6>have found his mementos. It's wrapped with a nice bowl

904
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:54.760
<v Speaker 6>tied on it, and I mean, we're like bowing to this,

905
00:49:54.760 --> 00:49:57.119
<v Speaker 6>this is our evidence. We found it, and we started

906
00:49:57.199 --> 00:49:59.360
<v Speaker 6>unwrapping it and it's just one rag after another and

907
00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:01.400
<v Speaker 6>it base even nothing in there, so we were kinding,

908
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:04.440
<v Speaker 6>but we didn't notice stains on it. So we collected

909
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:07.679
<v Speaker 6>it and took it back to the lab and they

910
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:11.679
<v Speaker 6>told us that there was semen, blood, saliva, there was

911
00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:15.320
<v Speaker 6>all sort of bodily fluids on these rags, but it

912
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:18.320
<v Speaker 6>was so degraded and had been up there so long

913
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:21.679
<v Speaker 6>that in the elements, you know, the heat and the cold,

914
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:25.360
<v Speaker 6>that it was just not a good sample. And uh

915
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:29.519
<v Speaker 6>wow with that after all the tests, and it took

916
00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:31.360
<v Speaker 6>a pretty good bit of time. We didn't know that

917
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:32.920
<v Speaker 6>at the time. I mean, it took us maybe a

918
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:34.679
<v Speaker 6>year and a half to get all the test results back.

919
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:39.440
<v Speaker 6>But we really didn't have anything with that other than

920
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:42.679
<v Speaker 6>we couldn't match his DNA to it. We couldn't match

921
00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:45.639
<v Speaker 6>Christie Proctor, Christie makes They did tell us that we

922
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:47.960
<v Speaker 6>can't tell you it's rocks Anderaeis's, but we can't tell

923
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:50.320
<v Speaker 6>you it's not. That was about the best we had

924
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:54.119
<v Speaker 6>with that. But he told us a lot of things

925
00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:59.519
<v Speaker 6>Sonny cap did about the type of victims he picked

926
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:00.719
<v Speaker 6>and things like that.

927
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:11.079
<v Speaker 2>So at what point did you what point did you believe?

928
00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:14.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, again, you you can only concentrate on the

929
00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:16.760
<v Speaker 2>cases that that are already called, that are already there,

930
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:21.000
<v Speaker 2>never mind imagining. But did you guys were all in

931
00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:24.599
<v Speaker 2>agreement basically that this guy likely had killed more people

932
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:29.199
<v Speaker 2>than you guys were even looking at.

933
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:32.559
<v Speaker 6>Sonny Keb himself told me that because we were talking

934
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:34.400
<v Speaker 6>about that, he would keep bringing up cases and bringing

935
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:35.920
<v Speaker 6>up cases. And I asked him one that said, how

936
00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:38.159
<v Speaker 6>many is there? He says, well, he's claimed that he's

937
00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:42.480
<v Speaker 6>killed as many as fifty. And I'm thinking, well, he

938
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:45.000
<v Speaker 6>kept bringing up cases. I said, do you believe that?

939
00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:47.480
<v Speaker 6>Because he also told me that he lied and he

940
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:52.159
<v Speaker 6>exaggerated and he would, you know, make all kinds of claims.

941
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.599
<v Speaker 6>And he says, no, I don't believe he killed that many.

942
00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:56.760
<v Speaker 6>He goes, he goes, but I do think he has

943
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:59.400
<v Speaker 6>as many as twenty or twenty five, he says. By

944
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:00.719
<v Speaker 6>the I said, well, why do you think that he

945
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:03.159
<v Speaker 6>goes because he just seems to know a lot of

946
00:52:03.159 --> 00:52:05.719
<v Speaker 6>details about certain ones. Some of them he would just

947
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.960
<v Speaker 6>kind of make claims to, but some of them he

948
00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:16.239
<v Speaker 6>specifically mentioned details of So that was where I'm trusting

949
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:20.840
<v Speaker 6>Sonny Cab. But also that same story was confirmed when

950
00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:25.119
<v Speaker 6>we did finally meet with other inmates. They kind of

951
00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:29.440
<v Speaker 6>told us all the same thing, pretty similar stories. That

952
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:32.159
<v Speaker 6>his biggest downfall and it was his downfall in the

953
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:34.559
<v Speaker 6>Nigeros case that got him convicted. Is this guy likes

954
00:52:34.599 --> 00:52:37.440
<v Speaker 6>to talk, and I think it's a he likes to

955
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:39.400
<v Speaker 6>relive these things and that's the best way he can.

956
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:41.960
<v Speaker 6>He never able to do them again, but he can

957
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.840
<v Speaker 6>relive them by talking about him. And I think that's

958
00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:48.199
<v Speaker 6>that's his fantasy, it's his dream, and he just likes

959
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:51.559
<v Speaker 6>to talk about him.

960
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Now, Sonny Colb is a pedophile and he's in with Penton,

961
00:52:58.199 --> 00:53:01.920
<v Speaker 2>So he's no good guy, you know, just screwed up once.

962
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.239
<v Speaker 2>Only he's a bad guy as well. Was there any

963
00:53:05.320 --> 00:53:09.519
<v Speaker 2>talk I'd find it interesting because there's so many American

964
00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:12.679
<v Speaker 2>cases where very quickly they say, hey, we want you

965
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.519
<v Speaker 2>to wear a wire when they get some information to

966
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:18.719
<v Speaker 2>really confirm and be able to have some solid information.

967
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:22.199
<v Speaker 2>Was there any talk or any plans, any discussion about

968
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:25.800
<v Speaker 2>maybe wiring Sunny Cab. I know that he wasn't necessarily

969
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:28.760
<v Speaker 2>in the same prison, but was there any talk about

970
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:29.079
<v Speaker 2>at all?

971
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:32.840
<v Speaker 6>Whatsoever there was we did. We did talk about that,

972
00:53:33.079 --> 00:53:36.480
<v Speaker 6>and we actually even talked about wiring the sale, and

973
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:40.400
<v Speaker 6>we talked about a lot of things. But the Sunny

974
00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:48.119
<v Speaker 6>Cab absolutely would not. He was so paranoid of being

975
00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:53.079
<v Speaker 6>labeled a snitch that even when we visited him, we

976
00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:57.280
<v Speaker 6>had to visit him in the regular visitors room. Bruce

977
00:53:57.360 --> 00:53:59.800
<v Speaker 6>and IV went to visiting first. He wanted us to,

978
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:02.599
<v Speaker 6>he said, do not come looking like cops. He wanted

979
00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:05.039
<v Speaker 6>to wear jeans, wear T shirt, you know, T shoes,

980
00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:06.920
<v Speaker 6>don't don't come in there looking like a cop with

981
00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:09.320
<v Speaker 6>a coat and tie or whatever. He says, you're gonna

982
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:11.360
<v Speaker 6>look like my uncle and my cousin. You know I want.

983
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:15.360
<v Speaker 6>I don't. And he said if you pull, he said,

984
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:17.159
<v Speaker 6>and we didn't find this was all true, if you

985
00:54:17.239 --> 00:54:19.119
<v Speaker 6>pull one of those inmates to a back room to

986
00:54:19.159 --> 00:54:23.000
<v Speaker 6>interview them, he said, within minutes, in the far back

987
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:25.960
<v Speaker 6>reaches of that prison, they know that jefferysony Cavi is

988
00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:27.880
<v Speaker 6>in the back talking to the police. He said, they

989
00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:29.960
<v Speaker 6>know it, and it's like a what We kind of

990
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:32.039
<v Speaker 6>laughed and said, it's like an old woman's quilting group.

991
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:35.840
<v Speaker 6>The gossip that goes on in there, they they they're very,

992
00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:42.320
<v Speaker 6>very aware of what's going on. And so we respected

993
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:46.039
<v Speaker 6>his request and interviewed him as sitting at a table

994
00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:49.440
<v Speaker 6>with other inmates all around us, but they were enough

995
00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:51.960
<v Speaker 6>away and paying attention to their visitors that none of

996
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:54.000
<v Speaker 6>them seemed to be listening to us, and it went

997
00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:57.119
<v Speaker 6>real well that way. We interviewed two other inmates that

998
00:54:57.239 --> 00:54:59.480
<v Speaker 6>same day that he had hooked us up with that

999
00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:05.440
<v Speaker 6>also told us the same stories about uh, relatively same

1000
00:55:05.480 --> 00:55:08.639
<v Speaker 6>stories that were a little bit different, but he pentting

1001
00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:12.599
<v Speaker 6>bragged to every inmate in there that knew him. Every

1002
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:17.480
<v Speaker 6>single inmate we ended up talking to, without exception of

1003
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:21.880
<v Speaker 6>maybe two, told us that he bragged about raping and

1004
00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:25.159
<v Speaker 6>killing kids. That was all he ever talked about. We

1005
00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:28.920
<v Speaker 6>visited prisons that of end would uh. We visited the

1006
00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:32.599
<v Speaker 6>prisons across the state, and we visited inmates that had

1007
00:55:32.679 --> 00:55:36.840
<v Speaker 6>been with him years past, and they even said, yeah,

1008
00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:39.800
<v Speaker 6>that's all you talk about, was raping and killing kids.

1009
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:43.199
<v Speaker 6>And uh, one of them even told us, so, what

1010
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:45.519
<v Speaker 6>took you guys so long to get on to him?

1011
00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:47.719
<v Speaker 6>Which didn't make you feel real good and know that.

1012
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:50.599
<v Speaker 6>Of course, my reply back to him was, well, why

1013
00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:52.559
<v Speaker 6>didn't you call us? You know what took you so long?

1014
00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:56.760
<v Speaker 6>You know, we don't know what he's talking about, but

1015
00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:02.199
<v Speaker 6>that was his downfall, his mouth.

1016
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:07.639
<v Speaker 2>What was the Was there any to check the credibility?

1017
00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:10.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Sonny Cab you fully vetted him, But in

1018
00:56:10.559 --> 00:56:13.159
<v Speaker 2>terms of the other guys, was there any did you

1019
00:56:13.159 --> 00:56:15.519
<v Speaker 2>ask him why are you doing this? Well, why would

1020
00:56:15.559 --> 00:56:19.199
<v Speaker 2>somebody that's almost with the same ilkus penton, why would

1021
00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:21.800
<v Speaker 2>they do anything to help out the authorities?

1022
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:27.000
<v Speaker 6>There was definitely a question. I never felt like Sonny

1023
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:28.960
<v Speaker 6>keb was doing this out of the kindness of his heart.

1024
00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:33.800
<v Speaker 6>I think that I always felt that there was something.

1025
00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:35.800
<v Speaker 6>He always felt that he was going to get something

1026
00:56:35.800 --> 00:56:39.880
<v Speaker 6>out of this. That's what I was thinking. We did

1027
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:44.800
<v Speaker 6>develop a I hate to say a relationship, a friendly

1028
00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:47.519
<v Speaker 6>but we were friendly. I had to talk to him

1029
00:56:47.599 --> 00:56:51.639
<v Speaker 6>like I would talk to anyone, and we got into

1030
00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:53.960
<v Speaker 6>shouting matches with each other. Oh, you know, we got

1031
00:56:53.960 --> 00:56:59.239
<v Speaker 6>into arguments, but we ultimately developed a pretty good rapport

1032
00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:03.920
<v Speaker 6>and it was not easy, I'm to tell you that.

1033
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:07.000
<v Speaker 6>But the other ones we you know, you always run

1034
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:08.800
<v Speaker 6>into the problem, Okay, Sonny Kep's got all those information,

1035
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:10.400
<v Speaker 6>how do we know he didn't do this? So we

1036
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:12.320
<v Speaker 6>had to kind of check his background and find out

1037
00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:14.159
<v Speaker 6>where he was during all this too, because he sure

1038
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:16.119
<v Speaker 6>knew a lot and is he trying to pin it

1039
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:17.760
<v Speaker 6>on someone else? You know that those we looked at

1040
00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:23.199
<v Speaker 6>all those things, the other guys, we wondered if they

1041
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:25.800
<v Speaker 6>were not people that Sonny cap knew. I was trying

1042
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:28.440
<v Speaker 6>to build credibility with him, So I wondered, Okay, did

1043
00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:31.440
<v Speaker 6>he go get these guys and coach them so it

1044
00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:33.840
<v Speaker 6>would make his credibility look better that there's other inmates,

1045
00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:37.000
<v Speaker 6>So we had that worry. But after interviewing the two

1046
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:40.639
<v Speaker 6>other guys, I was very convinced that wasn't the case

1047
00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:44.280
<v Speaker 6>because they didn't tell the same stories, they were different.

1048
00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:49.119
<v Speaker 6>One of them didn't know anything. Bruce and I are

1049
00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:51.440
<v Speaker 6>interviewing these guys, and Bruce is interested in the Christie

1050
00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:54.039
<v Speaker 6>mix case. Obviously I'm interested in rox and Res, and

1051
00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:56.880
<v Speaker 6>we're both interested in Christi Proctor. We didn't want to

1052
00:57:56.960 --> 00:57:58.880
<v Speaker 6>leave her out. We didn't have a plane with us

1053
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:00.719
<v Speaker 6>at the time, but we wanted to make sure all

1054
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:05.440
<v Speaker 6>the girls cases were covered. So but I'm focusing on

1055
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:07.960
<v Speaker 6>Rocks and res and he's focusing on Christie Meeks. Well,

1056
00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:10.800
<v Speaker 6>one of the guys, David Kreki was his name. He

1057
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:13.480
<v Speaker 6>he's telling us about Rox and Reus, and he's telling

1058
00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:17.800
<v Speaker 6>us about Christy Proctor. But Bruce is wanting, he's chomping

1059
00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:20.599
<v Speaker 6>at the bench to get to Christy Meeks. And he says,

1060
00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:22.199
<v Speaker 6>I've never heard of that one. He said, I don't

1061
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:26.400
<v Speaker 6>know anything about that, And I would think if they're rehearsing,

1062
00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:28.880
<v Speaker 6>knowing who's coming to talk to them, they're gonna be

1063
00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:30.840
<v Speaker 6>talking about the cases we want to hear about. And

1064
00:58:31.480 --> 00:58:34.920
<v Speaker 6>he didn't, and he sincerely didn't know anything about that one.

1065
00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:36.639
<v Speaker 6>Penton had just not talked about that one. He had

1066
00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:39.320
<v Speaker 6>talked about so many but that was not one of them.

1067
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:43.280
<v Speaker 6>So I don't feel like they were lying. Just that

1068
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:48.000
<v Speaker 6>was my gut feeling. And then later we did develop

1069
00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:51.320
<v Speaker 6>more and some that we had to go to that

1070
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:55.880
<v Speaker 6>didn't come to us and they didn't want anything. So yeah,

1071
00:58:56.079 --> 00:58:59.719
<v Speaker 6>it it became pretty obvious that he had told many

1072
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:00.440
<v Speaker 6>many people.

1073
00:59:03.480 --> 00:59:06.840
<v Speaker 2>Now, is was there any talk of once you have

1074
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:09.559
<v Speaker 2>this kind of information, was there any talk of in

1075
00:59:09.639 --> 00:59:12.480
<v Speaker 2>the strategy of what to do next? Was there any

1076
00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:18.440
<v Speaker 2>talk of interviewing Penton or would that? Was that not

1077
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:19.440
<v Speaker 2>an idea at all?

1078
00:59:20.079 --> 00:59:23.639
<v Speaker 6>Entertained, Oh, it was. We knew through doing. I mean,

1079
00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:26.400
<v Speaker 6>we had gone to Columbus. We had talked to Rick Cheesby,

1080
00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:29.559
<v Speaker 6>was the one of the lead investigators on the Nigerras case,

1081
00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:32.840
<v Speaker 6>and we had he had retired, but I talked with

1082
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:34.760
<v Speaker 6>him a lot. I talked to a lot of the

1083
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:37.800
<v Speaker 6>Columbus people. We went and went through their file. We

1084
00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:43.519
<v Speaker 6>knew his background. He never confessed, would not confess, deny,

1085
00:59:44.280 --> 00:59:47.559
<v Speaker 6>he would never confess anything. So we we until we

1086
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:50.920
<v Speaker 6>were one ready. We decided we were not going to

1087
00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:56.320
<v Speaker 6>interview him until we were just completely sure we had

1088
00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:58.639
<v Speaker 6>what we had because and we never really felt like

1089
00:59:58.679 --> 01:00:02.239
<v Speaker 6>he would ever. He's such a pathological liar. We knew

1090
01:00:02.239 --> 01:00:04.360
<v Speaker 6>he wouldn't tell us anything, or we felt that he wouldn't,

1091
01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:06.400
<v Speaker 6>So we just kind of waited until we were one

1092
01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:07.280
<v Speaker 6>hundred percent ready.

1093
01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.760
<v Speaker 2>And I think, now, how did you get how did

1094
01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:15.679
<v Speaker 2>you prepare for this? And what was the strategy? Now

1095
01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:17.599
<v Speaker 2>you have four guys, you say this is the dream

1096
01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:20.559
<v Speaker 2>team of detectives. Everybody's dedicated, everybody has a piece of

1097
01:00:20.599 --> 01:00:25.440
<v Speaker 2>the puzzle. Everybody's up to speed. Tell us what those

1098
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:30.000
<v Speaker 2>strategy like that strategy session was like with your fellow officers.

1099
01:00:30.559 --> 01:00:32.639
<v Speaker 6>As far as preparing to interview.

1100
01:00:32.360 --> 01:00:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Him, yes, well, preparing to put all the pieces together

1101
01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:39.760
<v Speaker 2>for to make your move like you say you want

1102
01:00:39.760 --> 01:00:41.840
<v Speaker 2>to make. You want to have all those things together.

1103
01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:45.000
<v Speaker 2>So tell us about what's the strategy and tell us

1104
01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:49.000
<v Speaker 2>about you must have spoke with other officers about this,

1105
01:00:49.159 --> 01:00:49.679
<v Speaker 2>what you were.

1106
01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:50.039
<v Speaker 6>Going to do.

1107
01:00:50.119 --> 01:00:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Tell us about those plans we had.

1108
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:56.719
<v Speaker 6>I think as far as the four person team, I

1109
01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:59.800
<v Speaker 6>think we all had our own unique abilities that that

1110
01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:06.239
<v Speaker 6>kind of blended together real well. We Bruce obviously had

1111
01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:09.239
<v Speaker 6>the knowledge of the case from the beginning, and Bruce

1112
01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:15.079
<v Speaker 6>has an amazing memory, and he was Bruce was a sergeant.

1113
01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:17.599
<v Speaker 6>We were all just detectives. We kind of there was

1114
01:01:17.639 --> 01:01:20.320
<v Speaker 6>no rank in this. I mean we're all from different agencies,

1115
01:01:20.360 --> 01:01:24.360
<v Speaker 6>but we kind of Bruce was a sergeant at his department,

1116
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:27.280
<v Speaker 6>so we kind of respected him. Miss maybe the he's

1117
01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:31.239
<v Speaker 6>the ranking official there, so uh, and he had a

1118
01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:34.519
<v Speaker 6>extremely high i Q with him. I mean, he just

1119
01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:37.199
<v Speaker 6>had a lot of knowledge about this case. Don Phillips

1120
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:41.280
<v Speaker 6>was an extremely organized, very good detective. We kind of

1121
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:43.639
<v Speaker 6>made Don the keeper of the file. Don kind of

1122
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:47.760
<v Speaker 6>organized it kept everything organized for us because I'm not

1123
01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:50.639
<v Speaker 6>the most organized person in the world, and Don was

1124
01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:52.800
<v Speaker 6>very good with that. So Don was the keeper of

1125
01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:57.599
<v Speaker 6>the file, is what we called him. And Billy had

1126
01:01:57.639 --> 01:02:02.199
<v Speaker 6>worked on a multi jurisdictional task force. There was a

1127
01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:06.519
<v Speaker 6>lot of oh this was kind of it may have

1128
01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:09.440
<v Speaker 6>been national news. There was a kind of an epidemic

1129
01:02:09.519 --> 01:02:14.639
<v Speaker 6>of heroin cases involving young kids overdosing in the area

1130
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:16.519
<v Speaker 6>at that time, and there was a task force developed.

1131
01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:19.159
<v Speaker 6>It even involved one of the Dallas Cowboys, Mark Tunenay,

1132
01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:21.519
<v Speaker 6>had overdosed on heroin. Billy was on this task force

1133
01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:23.800
<v Speaker 6>that was working these cases and had a lot of

1134
01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:28.320
<v Speaker 6>experience with multi jurisdictional thanks and so he was really

1135
01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:32.119
<v Speaker 6>good at working with other people and getting things like that.

1136
01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:35.599
<v Speaker 6>And I guess my strong point was I was the

1137
01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:39.599
<v Speaker 6>how do I say this, the BS or I was

1138
01:02:39.639 --> 01:02:41.679
<v Speaker 6>the one that was able to talk to people and

1139
01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:45.400
<v Speaker 6>get them to tell me things. That was I guess

1140
01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:47.239
<v Speaker 6>that was my strong point. I had Sonny cap He

1141
01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:49.719
<v Speaker 6>wouldn't talk to nobody else, he would not work with

1142
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:52.360
<v Speaker 6>anybody else. He we had a relationship developed between us

1143
01:02:52.360 --> 01:02:55.360
<v Speaker 6>and he would only work with me. So we all

1144
01:02:55.360 --> 01:02:57.800
<v Speaker 6>had our point our strong points in this and and

1145
01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:02.000
<v Speaker 6>we worked off each other every you know, we if

1146
01:03:02.039 --> 01:03:04.159
<v Speaker 6>Don needed something for organizing it, and we gave it

1147
01:03:04.199 --> 01:03:06.320
<v Speaker 6>to Don. Don it was his deal. He developed a

1148
01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:08.760
<v Speaker 6>PowerPoint on it him. I think Billy actually helped him out.

1149
01:03:09.199 --> 01:03:11.920
<v Speaker 6>Everyone just had a task and we all it jailled.

1150
01:03:12.079 --> 01:03:16.320
<v Speaker 6>It worked. So when we got together everyone kind of

1151
01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:19.559
<v Speaker 6>we just sort of knew our roles without ever really

1152
01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:24.039
<v Speaker 6>even discussing that. I don't know if that makes sense,

1153
01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:25.079
<v Speaker 6>but so tell him.

1154
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:29.239
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, it's uh. Everybody has their strengths and there

1155
01:03:29.320 --> 01:03:33.320
<v Speaker 2>is a rule. So tell us about the final the

1156
01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:39.119
<v Speaker 2>final arrest of Penton for these how you come to

1157
01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:40.000
<v Speaker 2>be able to do that?

1158
01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:45.159
<v Speaker 6>Tell us a lot time when we we made maybe

1159
01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:50.400
<v Speaker 6>five trips to Ohio interviewing people. Our last trip there

1160
01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:52.960
<v Speaker 6>was the trip we decided we were going to do

1161
01:03:53.000 --> 01:03:57.320
<v Speaker 6>our interview. We decided Bruce and I would interview Pentton,

1162
01:03:57.920 --> 01:04:02.199
<v Speaker 6>Billy and Don would go into his cell and search

1163
01:04:02.239 --> 01:04:04.920
<v Speaker 6>his cell while we're interviewing him. We also brought Collin

1164
01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:09.079
<v Speaker 6>County District Attorney investigator Marlena Scribner came with us, and

1165
01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:12.960
<v Speaker 6>she was kind of our we spread out. We took

1166
01:04:12.960 --> 01:04:14.920
<v Speaker 6>off into different areas of the state. When we got

1167
01:04:14.920 --> 01:04:17.039
<v Speaker 6>when we hit the ground in Ohio, we would take off.

1168
01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:18.960
<v Speaker 6>Billy and I would take off and go one direction.

1169
01:04:19.079 --> 01:04:20.800
<v Speaker 6>Don and Bruce would take off and go another direction.

1170
01:04:20.880 --> 01:04:25.039
<v Speaker 6>We were running down things and Marleita was Marlette. I

1171
01:04:25.079 --> 01:04:27.440
<v Speaker 6>believe she stayed in Columbus, and that was kind of

1172
01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:30.639
<v Speaker 6>our central contact person. She was, you know, we would

1173
01:04:30.679 --> 01:04:32.199
<v Speaker 6>call in check in with Marlette and she would tell

1174
01:04:32.280 --> 01:04:34.639
<v Speaker 6>us what Bruce and Donn are doing and vice versa,

1175
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:38.199
<v Speaker 6>so we kind of kept her in the center. We

1176
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:42.239
<v Speaker 6>The day we decided to interview, we decided Bruce and

1177
01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:44.679
<v Speaker 6>I would do the interview, Billy and Don would check

1178
01:04:44.679 --> 01:04:46.800
<v Speaker 6>the cell. Marlene came in and she helped them look

1179
01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:49.199
<v Speaker 6>through his cell, but we brought him into a room

1180
01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:53.480
<v Speaker 6>he had now backing up one of the things we

1181
01:04:53.519 --> 01:04:56.880
<v Speaker 6>had done early on in working with the prison investigators,

1182
01:04:56.920 --> 01:05:00.840
<v Speaker 6>who were huge help. We had his mail intercepted and

1183
01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:03.639
<v Speaker 6>when he would get a letter in or send a

1184
01:05:03.679 --> 01:05:05.199
<v Speaker 6>letter out, they would open it and make a copy

1185
01:05:05.239 --> 01:05:08.199
<v Speaker 6>of it, send it to us, and then close his

1186
01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:10.119
<v Speaker 6>letter back up and send it out. So I knew

1187
01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:12.760
<v Speaker 6>what mail had come in and out, and it was

1188
01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:15.960
<v Speaker 6>pretty ironic that after maybe the second visit there, I

1189
01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:17.519
<v Speaker 6>would read his mail and I would see my name

1190
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:20.519
<v Speaker 6>in his mail, the detective Gary Sweet from Garland, Detective

1191
01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:23.599
<v Speaker 6>Bruce Bratshaw, we're here talking about me again. He knew

1192
01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:26.519
<v Speaker 6>we were there, he knew our names, and I just

1193
01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:29.480
<v Speaker 6>kind of blew me away. The intelligence in the prison system.

1194
01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:31.760
<v Speaker 6>He had never seen us, but he knew our names

1195
01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:34.880
<v Speaker 6>and had talked about us in his mail. So when

1196
01:05:34.880 --> 01:05:39.000
<v Speaker 6>we brought him in for that interview and set him down,

1197
01:05:40.480 --> 01:05:42.679
<v Speaker 6>he was looking at us with a very puzzled look

1198
01:05:42.719 --> 01:05:45.199
<v Speaker 6>on his face, like who are you guys? And I

1199
01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:46.920
<v Speaker 6>walked over to him and stuck my hand out to

1200
01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:49.280
<v Speaker 6>shake his hand and introduced myself to him. And Bruce

1201
01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:53.679
<v Speaker 6>stuck his hand out and introduced himself, and he wet

1202
01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:57.639
<v Speaker 6>his pants. I mean, his face went pale and he

1203
01:05:57.719 --> 01:06:01.559
<v Speaker 6>lost his bodily functions. I think the fly and it

1204
01:06:01.599 --> 01:06:04.960
<v Speaker 6>was that great. And men hadn't really said this, but

1205
01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:08.320
<v Speaker 6>he had a huge fear of Texas. They felt like

1206
01:06:08.480 --> 01:06:11.119
<v Speaker 6>in those inmates when they would talk to us, they

1207
01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:13.920
<v Speaker 6>thought we executed about I think one of them said,

1208
01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:16.760
<v Speaker 6>you guys execute about five or six hundred people a year. Well,

1209
01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:19.400
<v Speaker 6>I think maybe that's really about maybe twenty or twenty

1210
01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:23.280
<v Speaker 6>five is probably the more accurate number. But I said, no, no, no, no,

1211
01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:26.480
<v Speaker 6>we don't execute six hundred people. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Probably

1212
01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:29.039
<v Speaker 6>only three or four hundred, you know, I just kind

1213
01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:32.119
<v Speaker 6>of keep that going in their mind. They really believed

1214
01:06:32.119 --> 01:06:33.800
<v Speaker 6>that if you come to Texas, you're gonna get killed.

1215
01:06:34.360 --> 01:06:41.639
<v Speaker 6>So we the strategy for pening. I knew that he

1216
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:46.039
<v Speaker 6>really didn't have a conscience about these because of things

1217
01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:48.360
<v Speaker 6>that he had told these inmates, one of them asking

1218
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:50.159
<v Speaker 6>him one time, why did you kill the girls after

1219
01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:52.840
<v Speaker 6>you raped them? Because that was his ultimate goal. He said, well,

1220
01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:55.159
<v Speaker 6>they're not good for anything after that. You know, there's

1221
01:06:55.159 --> 01:06:57.079
<v Speaker 6>just gonna be a burden on society after you've sex

1222
01:06:57.119 --> 01:06:58.880
<v Speaker 6>with us. Often they're not good for anything, so just

1223
01:06:58.920 --> 01:07:01.920
<v Speaker 6>kill them and throw them away. And uh, so me,

1224
01:07:02.039 --> 01:07:04.159
<v Speaker 6>that sounded like a person that just didn't have a conscience,

1225
01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:06.840
<v Speaker 6>didn't didn't have a soul. It was my thought. But

1226
01:07:07.440 --> 01:07:09.280
<v Speaker 6>and I knew he liked to brag. So I started

1227
01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:12.599
<v Speaker 6>reading up on that personality and it was a psycho

1228
01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:16.000
<v Speaker 6>path and I read books on cycle paths. Uh, every

1229
01:07:16.079 --> 01:07:17.519
<v Speaker 6>chance I got, I tried to read everything I could

1230
01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:20.119
<v Speaker 6>to learn to develop a strategy to talk to him.

1231
01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:24.360
<v Speaker 6>So the final strategy was what got us there his ego,

1232
01:07:24.679 --> 01:07:27.400
<v Speaker 6>him talking and bragging about doing this. So we went

1233
01:07:27.440 --> 01:07:29.280
<v Speaker 6>in and kind of stroked his ego a little bit,

1234
01:07:29.639 --> 01:07:31.280
<v Speaker 6>told him how good he was at it, and how

1235
01:07:31.280 --> 01:07:32.760
<v Speaker 6>I look how along it took us to catch you,

1236
01:07:32.840 --> 01:07:36.679
<v Speaker 6>and uh, we you know it the first conversation when

1237
01:07:36.679 --> 01:07:38.719
<v Speaker 6>we introduced ourselves after he wet his pants, he tried

1238
01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:40.559
<v Speaker 6>to hide that from us and turn himself away so

1239
01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:42.519
<v Speaker 6>we wouldn't see it, but it you know, we knew

1240
01:07:42.519 --> 01:07:45.599
<v Speaker 6>it was there. But he said, I, I'm glad you

1241
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:47.039
<v Speaker 6>guys are here. He goes, so I can tell you

1242
01:07:47.079 --> 01:07:49.440
<v Speaker 6>I didn't do these crimes you are talking about. I

1243
01:07:49.480 --> 01:07:51.639
<v Speaker 6>just told him, David, we didn't come here to talk

1244
01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:54.000
<v Speaker 6>about whether he did or not. We know you did him,

1245
01:07:54.119 --> 01:07:55.719
<v Speaker 6>So I just wanted to come meet you before we

1246
01:07:55.719 --> 01:07:58.199
<v Speaker 6>bring you back to Texas and kill you. We just

1247
01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:00.880
<v Speaker 6>kind of wanted to introduce ourselves to you. So we

1248
01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:03.480
<v Speaker 6>kept pumping the fear into him. But then we would

1249
01:08:03.480 --> 01:08:08.800
<v Speaker 6>also stroke his ego a little bit, and that was

1250
01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:10.480
<v Speaker 6>our strategy basically.

1251
01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:12.880
<v Speaker 4>And.

1252
01:08:14.679 --> 01:08:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, tell us more. I mean this is fascinating. Tell

1253
01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:19.199
<v Speaker 2>us more about the interview itself. I mean, he wets

1254
01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:23.840
<v Speaker 2>his pants. Now you're stroking his ego. You don't humiliate him.

1255
01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:26.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, you don't humiliate it because he wets his pants.

1256
01:08:26.840 --> 01:08:31.039
<v Speaker 2>So again, tell us more about actual conversations on how

1257
01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:34.840
<v Speaker 2>he begins and how he opens up a little in

1258
01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:36.239
<v Speaker 2>this interview.

1259
01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:39.439
<v Speaker 6>We know, we don't even acknowledge it, and no, we

1260
01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:41.720
<v Speaker 6>did not want to embarrass him. So he kind of

1261
01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:44.159
<v Speaker 6>turned his body away and crossed his legs, and we

1262
01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:46.319
<v Speaker 6>didn't acknowledge it. You could smell urine in their room.

1263
01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:48.680
<v Speaker 6>That wasn't a large room, but we didn't acknowledge that.

1264
01:08:48.800 --> 01:08:50.840
<v Speaker 6>And we just continued to talk to him, and he

1265
01:08:51.439 --> 01:08:55.119
<v Speaker 6>continued to deny. And one great thing I think that

1266
01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:58.920
<v Speaker 6>came out of it. You know, I've always said my

1267
01:08:59.079 --> 01:09:03.680
<v Speaker 6>greatest fear in police work is putting the wrong person

1268
01:09:03.880 --> 01:09:06.239
<v Speaker 6>in prison for a crime they didn't commit. I would

1269
01:09:06.359 --> 01:09:08.680
<v Speaker 6>rather a person get away with murder than put a

1270
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:10.680
<v Speaker 6>person in prison for murder that didn't do it. I

1271
01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:12.760
<v Speaker 6>just that would be a nightmare for me. So I

1272
01:09:12.800 --> 01:09:16.119
<v Speaker 6>always had this in the back of my mind. You know,

1273
01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:19.279
<v Speaker 6>I'm ninety nine point nine percent sure this guy is guilty,

1274
01:09:19.319 --> 01:09:21.119
<v Speaker 6>but that's not good enough. I want to be one

1275
01:09:21.159 --> 01:09:24.399
<v Speaker 6>hundred percent sure. So, you know, just everything kept lining

1276
01:09:24.479 --> 01:09:26.680
<v Speaker 6>up and Okay, what if all these inmates are like

1277
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:28.800
<v Speaker 6>like you know, I just still had that tiny, tiny,

1278
01:09:28.840 --> 01:09:30.880
<v Speaker 6>tiny doubt in the back of my mind, and it

1279
01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:33.600
<v Speaker 6>worried me. I was convinced he did it, but I just,

1280
01:09:35.000 --> 01:09:36.960
<v Speaker 6>like I said, it's a very small doubt, but it

1281
01:09:37.000 --> 01:09:40.119
<v Speaker 6>was there. I'm not going to deny that. After that interview,

1282
01:09:41.680 --> 01:09:45.439
<v Speaker 6>I was one hundred percent satisfied. And the first thing

1283
01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:50.640
<v Speaker 6>I think that convinced me is when Bruce asked him,

1284
01:09:51.119 --> 01:09:52.760
<v Speaker 6>you know, knowing that we had gone up into the

1285
01:09:52.760 --> 01:09:56.159
<v Speaker 6>attic and found those rags. We didn't know if that

1286
01:09:56.239 --> 01:09:58.560
<v Speaker 6>was his rags or not. We just didn't know because

1287
01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:01.479
<v Speaker 6>the DNA wasn't good enough. But Bruce threw that out there.

1288
01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:04.039
<v Speaker 6>He goes, David, what if I told you that we

1289
01:10:04.079 --> 01:10:06.880
<v Speaker 6>searched your house in Columbus and that we found something

1290
01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:10.319
<v Speaker 6>in the attic and he looked at him. Now, David

1291
01:10:10.399 --> 01:10:14.159
<v Speaker 6>Pentton was a very animated, very moving He was constantly moving,

1292
01:10:14.199 --> 01:10:16.560
<v Speaker 6>his head was moving, he was always just shifting around.

1293
01:10:16.600 --> 01:10:19.960
<v Speaker 6>He was very animated, and he kind of paused still

1294
01:10:20.039 --> 01:10:22.279
<v Speaker 6>for a second and said, I would say that's a

1295
01:10:22.279 --> 01:10:26.119
<v Speaker 6>lie because I never took any souvenirs. And I think

1296
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:27.800
<v Speaker 6>it was everything I could do to keep from falling

1297
01:10:27.800 --> 01:10:32.359
<v Speaker 6>out of my chair because I just heard him confess.

1298
01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:35.720
<v Speaker 6>He just said that I did. I mean, he said

1299
01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:38.600
<v Speaker 6>I never took any souvenirs. So we didn't acknowledge that

1300
01:10:38.640 --> 01:10:40.880
<v Speaker 6>he said that. We just kind of kept right on going,

1301
01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:44.760
<v Speaker 6>hoping that he would say more, and he didn't. He

1302
01:10:44.800 --> 01:10:50.319
<v Speaker 6>would deny and deny some more, and then later, after

1303
01:10:50.359 --> 01:10:52.520
<v Speaker 6>stroking his ego about how good he was at it,

1304
01:10:52.520 --> 01:10:54.319
<v Speaker 6>he kind of chuckled one time and he goes, you know,

1305
01:10:54.359 --> 01:10:57.199
<v Speaker 6>he goes, y'all can't have any evidence on me, So

1306
01:10:57.239 --> 01:10:58.720
<v Speaker 6>why is that? He goes, I'm not stupid. He goes,

1307
01:10:58.760 --> 01:11:02.239
<v Speaker 6>I didn't leave any physical evidence. Well, then again, that's

1308
01:11:02.279 --> 01:11:05.319
<v Speaker 6>another confession, and I had to question him. Then I said, well,

1309
01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:07.199
<v Speaker 6>what do you mean? I said, did you use a condom?

1310
01:11:07.399 --> 01:11:09.000
<v Speaker 6>I mean, what do you mean you didn't leave any evidence?

1311
01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:13.520
<v Speaker 6>And the expression on his face completely changed. He realized

1312
01:11:13.520 --> 01:11:15.640
<v Speaker 6>then what he had just said, and he got real

1313
01:11:15.680 --> 01:11:18.239
<v Speaker 6>antsy and started shifting around in his changes. Oh, well,

1314
01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:20.119
<v Speaker 6>I didn't leave any evidence because I didn't do it,

1315
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:22.680
<v Speaker 6>but he had already slipped up and said he had

1316
01:11:22.680 --> 01:11:25.760
<v Speaker 6>done it. So he confessed twice in that interview without

1317
01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:30.319
<v Speaker 6>really even knowing he had done it. And so we

1318
01:11:30.600 --> 01:11:35.479
<v Speaker 6>left that interview. I left one hundred percent positive that

1319
01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:38.119
<v Speaker 6>he was our guy, not that I had a whole

1320
01:11:38.159 --> 01:11:41.600
<v Speaker 6>lot of doubt, but any little bit I had was gone.

1321
01:11:42.359 --> 01:11:43.720
<v Speaker 6>And then we did get to bring him in the

1322
01:11:43.800 --> 01:11:46.000
<v Speaker 6>second day, And to be perfectly honest, we did the

1323
01:11:46.039 --> 01:11:50.279
<v Speaker 6>second day was because I think Bruce, I mean because

1324
01:11:50.319 --> 01:11:53.479
<v Speaker 6>I think Don and Billy were jealous that they didn't

1325
01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:54.800
<v Speaker 6>get a chance to talk to him. So that's what

1326
01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:57.119
<v Speaker 6>we always telling him, tease him. But they wanted a

1327
01:11:57.119 --> 01:11:59.199
<v Speaker 6>shot at him too, So we brought him back out

1328
01:11:59.279 --> 01:12:00.840
<v Speaker 6>for a second day, and all four of us took

1329
01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:03.880
<v Speaker 6>a shot at him. And you know, Don and Billy,

1330
01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:05.520
<v Speaker 6>they didn't want to miss out on that. Those were

1331
01:12:05.720 --> 01:12:08.600
<v Speaker 6>those are two top nasty detectives. And for to hear

1332
01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:11.479
<v Speaker 6>men Bruce sitting here gloating about this interview with him,

1333
01:12:11.520 --> 01:12:13.479
<v Speaker 6>they were wanted the shot at him. So we brought

1334
01:12:13.560 --> 01:12:14.960
<v Speaker 6>him out, let them have a shot at him too,

1335
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:19.720
<v Speaker 6>And that was several hours of interviews and in that

1336
01:12:19.840 --> 01:12:24.000
<v Speaker 6>time he confessed a couple more times with slip ups.

1337
01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:29.760
<v Speaker 6>He just his mouth. He can't. I mean, if you

1338
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:33.199
<v Speaker 6>talk to anyone long enough in their lying, they can't

1339
01:12:33.359 --> 01:12:35.680
<v Speaker 6>remember the lies. You can remember the truth when you

1340
01:12:35.680 --> 01:12:37.199
<v Speaker 6>tell the truth, but when you tell a lie, it's

1341
01:12:37.199 --> 01:12:39.119
<v Speaker 6>hard to remember that life. You talked to him long enough,

1342
01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:43.199
<v Speaker 6>they forget what they said. Yeah, so he did slip

1343
01:12:43.279 --> 01:12:44.279
<v Speaker 6>up a couple more times.

1344
01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:48.680
<v Speaker 2>We'd like you say, it is not the confessing the

1345
01:12:48.840 --> 01:12:49.840
<v Speaker 2>confessing type.

1346
01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:53.079
<v Speaker 6>No. Now, if you ask him after that interview, he

1347
01:12:53.119 --> 01:12:55.439
<v Speaker 6>never did confess. But but he did. I mean he

1348
01:12:56.039 --> 01:12:58.439
<v Speaker 6>he would not admit that he confessed, but he slipped

1349
01:12:58.520 --> 01:13:02.960
<v Speaker 6>up and confessed. We were told, we were warned about him.

1350
01:13:03.119 --> 01:13:05.159
<v Speaker 6>You know, things to do and not doing the interview.

1351
01:13:06.239 --> 01:13:09.960
<v Speaker 6>One was to not do not get into a discussion

1352
01:13:10.039 --> 01:13:13.000
<v Speaker 6>of the Bible or God, because they said, when they're

1353
01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:15.439
<v Speaker 6>not sitting around there talking about raping kids, they're in

1354
01:13:15.439 --> 01:13:18.720
<v Speaker 6>there talking about the Bible. There they studied the Bible,

1355
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:20.880
<v Speaker 6>they know the Bible. And he said, Pentton was pretty

1356
01:13:20.880 --> 01:13:22.840
<v Speaker 6>well versed, and he did went to a lot of

1357
01:13:22.840 --> 01:13:26.600
<v Speaker 6>Bible studies. And they said, don't stay away from that.

1358
01:13:26.680 --> 01:13:30.359
<v Speaker 6>They said, stay away from that. But it just got

1359
01:13:30.920 --> 01:13:34.359
<v Speaker 6>We ended up getting into that too, and he he

1360
01:13:34.760 --> 01:13:38.039
<v Speaker 6>was just I have to say he was. He was

1361
01:13:38.079 --> 01:13:39.920
<v Speaker 6>an interesting guy to interview.

1362
01:13:42.359 --> 01:13:45.319
<v Speaker 2>And everybody so everybody say you got everyone got a

1363
01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:48.600
<v Speaker 2>shot and you had interviewed him for hours. But again

1364
01:13:48.760 --> 01:13:51.399
<v Speaker 2>just admissions that you really can't do much with right.

1365
01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:56.079
<v Speaker 6>We did not. We were out of our element. We

1366
01:13:56.239 --> 01:14:00.079
<v Speaker 6>did try to record the second interview, but we it

1367
01:14:00.199 --> 01:14:03.159
<v Speaker 6>was the recording devices and that time were not that

1368
01:14:03.319 --> 01:14:05.720
<v Speaker 6>great and we didn't get a lot on recording and

1369
01:14:05.760 --> 01:14:08.399
<v Speaker 6>we couldn't. You know, you hit thirty minute tape on

1370
01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:10.079
<v Speaker 6>one side you had to turn over for thirty minutes

1371
01:14:10.119 --> 01:14:13.199
<v Speaker 6>on the other side. After thirty minutes, we had barely

1372
01:14:13.239 --> 01:14:16.600
<v Speaker 6>got the preliminary introductions out and basics before the tape

1373
01:14:16.640 --> 01:14:18.359
<v Speaker 6>needed to be turned over, and we couldn't sneak and

1374
01:14:18.359 --> 01:14:20.880
<v Speaker 6>turn it over with him watching. So we really didn't

1375
01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:24.880
<v Speaker 6>get anything recorded. I'd give anything if we had, but

1376
01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:28.640
<v Speaker 6>today it would have been recorded. Back then, we just weren't.

1377
01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:32.640
<v Speaker 6>We just didn't do it that often. If I could

1378
01:14:32.640 --> 01:14:34.119
<v Speaker 6>go back in time is one thing I would have.

1379
01:14:34.079 --> 01:14:39.720
<v Speaker 2>Done right, and from that you just would be able

1380
01:14:39.760 --> 01:14:45.039
<v Speaker 2>to study from that interview him more so, or were

1381
01:14:45.079 --> 01:14:47.880
<v Speaker 2>there little bits of information that could have been used

1382
01:14:47.880 --> 01:14:48.760
<v Speaker 2>in his prosecution.

1383
01:14:51.399 --> 01:14:52.600
<v Speaker 6>Uh, I'm sorry, I mister, question.

1384
01:14:54.600 --> 01:14:58.239
<v Speaker 2>Was it there were just for your own purposes in

1385
01:14:58.319 --> 01:15:01.960
<v Speaker 2>terms of seeing his reaction action to certain information and

1386
01:15:02.000 --> 01:15:05.720
<v Speaker 2>his response in retrospect when you watch the tapes back

1387
01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:08.560
<v Speaker 2>or when you listen to the tapes back, or was

1388
01:15:08.560 --> 01:15:11.119
<v Speaker 2>it more so that there was some titbits of information

1389
01:15:11.159 --> 01:15:12.520
<v Speaker 2>that could be used in this prosecution.

1390
01:15:14.960 --> 01:15:18.479
<v Speaker 6>We wanted it for prosecution purposes mostly, and we knew

1391
01:15:18.479 --> 01:15:21.359
<v Speaker 6>that he had slipped up the first interview and we

1392
01:15:21.359 --> 01:15:23.199
<v Speaker 6>were hoping that the second one he would do the same,

1393
01:15:23.239 --> 01:15:29.600
<v Speaker 6>but they just didn't work out. With the types would

1394
01:15:29.640 --> 01:15:32.479
<v Speaker 6>have been great for prosecution, but there were four of

1395
01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:34.359
<v Speaker 6>us in the room. It would have been for our

1396
01:15:34.399 --> 01:15:39.560
<v Speaker 6>word against his, and I hope that would be enough. So,

1397
01:15:40.920 --> 01:15:42.760
<v Speaker 6>you know, we took noticing on what he said.

1398
01:15:42.840 --> 01:15:48.279
<v Speaker 2>But and how did he respond? You say, you know,

1399
01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:54.239
<v Speaker 2>there's a there's These guys respond respond differently. But lots

1400
01:15:54.279 --> 01:15:56.439
<v Speaker 2>of these guys share some of the characteristics in terms

1401
01:15:56.479 --> 01:15:59.560
<v Speaker 2>of narcissism, and they very much enjoy the spotlight. Some

1402
01:15:59.600 --> 01:16:03.039
<v Speaker 2>of them are very very talkative. They might not confess,

1403
01:16:03.119 --> 01:16:05.119
<v Speaker 2>but they're still very very talkative, And like you say

1404
01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:07.479
<v Speaker 2>he got into religion and in in in one of

1405
01:16:07.479 --> 01:16:11.479
<v Speaker 2>the interviews, Uh, tell us just what his behavior was like.

1406
01:16:11.560 --> 01:16:15.159
<v Speaker 2>His demeanor was like his how did you react to

1407
01:16:15.359 --> 01:16:18.000
<v Speaker 2>four of you guys in there trying to get something

1408
01:16:18.119 --> 01:16:20.520
<v Speaker 2>from him?

1409
01:16:20.640 --> 01:16:27.479
<v Speaker 6>He was talkative, he it was uh, he was polite. Uh,

1410
01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:32.239
<v Speaker 6>he was doing his I mean, I'm sure from his perspective,

1411
01:16:32.239 --> 01:16:35.079
<v Speaker 6>it wasn't an easy task because you know, if you're

1412
01:16:35.119 --> 01:16:39.239
<v Speaker 6>interrogating or interviewing someone one on one and you're they

1413
01:16:39.319 --> 01:16:41.560
<v Speaker 6>respond to you, you have to think of what your

1414
01:16:41.560 --> 01:16:44.439
<v Speaker 6>next question is back to them. While I'm talking to him,

1415
01:16:44.479 --> 01:16:47.600
<v Speaker 6>I got three other good detectives over there already ready

1416
01:16:47.600 --> 01:16:49.479
<v Speaker 6>for another question. So we didn't give him much time.

1417
01:16:50.159 --> 01:16:52.520
<v Speaker 6>And uh, you know, a liar needs time to think,

1418
01:16:53.039 --> 01:16:55.119
<v Speaker 6>and we were able to hit him just with bam

1419
01:16:55.159 --> 01:16:58.159
<v Speaker 6>bam bam, one after another and without much time to think.

1420
01:16:58.640 --> 01:17:01.800
<v Speaker 6>And I think that's a It can be a g

1421
01:17:01.920 --> 01:17:03.479
<v Speaker 6>if you work together well, it can be a good

1422
01:17:03.479 --> 01:17:06.199
<v Speaker 6>way of interviewing because, uh, you you always know when

1423
01:17:06.199 --> 01:17:07.760
<v Speaker 6>a guy's trying to think of a lie, when he

1424
01:17:07.840 --> 01:17:09.960
<v Speaker 6>when he repeats the question back to you, he's stalling

1425
01:17:10.039 --> 01:17:14.319
<v Speaker 6>for time when he uh you know, just just a

1426
01:17:14.359 --> 01:17:16.680
<v Speaker 6>little different techniques that they used to try to stall

1427
01:17:16.760 --> 01:17:19.640
<v Speaker 6>for time or to think, and uh, we didn't give

1428
01:17:19.680 --> 01:17:20.720
<v Speaker 6>him time for that, so it it.

1429
01:17:21.359 --> 01:17:21.520
<v Speaker 2>Uh.

1430
01:17:21.520 --> 01:17:25.319
<v Speaker 6>I think it was probably pretty pretty hard on him

1431
01:17:25.359 --> 01:17:26.720
<v Speaker 6>for four of us to be in there hitting him

1432
01:17:26.720 --> 01:17:29.800
<v Speaker 6>with questions one right after another, But I wasn't too

1433
01:17:29.800 --> 01:17:34.720
<v Speaker 6>worried about his feelings on it. Uh. He did ultimately

1434
01:17:34.760 --> 01:17:37.119
<v Speaker 6>tell us that I could have killed these kids and

1435
01:17:37.159 --> 01:17:40.039
<v Speaker 6>I don't remember, uh cause I was doing a lot

1436
01:17:40.039 --> 01:17:42.840
<v Speaker 6>of drugs back then, and that that was probably the

1437
01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:46.119
<v Speaker 6>best confession we'd ever get out of him, as oh, yeah,

1438
01:17:46.159 --> 01:17:48.319
<v Speaker 6>maybe I did it, and I don't remember. I've heard

1439
01:17:48.319 --> 01:17:52.720
<v Speaker 6>that same story before from other people, but to me,

1440
01:17:52.800 --> 01:17:56.439
<v Speaker 6>that was a confession too, but never had to get

1441
01:17:56.439 --> 01:17:58.680
<v Speaker 6>out in court because he did it confess ultimately an

1442
01:17:58.680 --> 01:18:01.039
<v Speaker 6>open court.

1443
01:18:02.800 --> 01:18:07.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so what was Did you attend court? The court

1444
01:18:07.199 --> 01:18:08.039
<v Speaker 2>proceedings itself?

1445
01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:14.439
<v Speaker 6>Yes, yes, And just tell us a little bit about that.

1446
01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:17.079
<v Speaker 2>We won't won't keep you on too much longer, but

1447
01:18:17.239 --> 01:18:20.960
<v Speaker 2>just tell us how that went in terms of how

1448
01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:25.720
<v Speaker 2>you felt about the trial or the farm the proceedings themselves,

1449
01:18:26.159 --> 01:18:28.960
<v Speaker 2>and tell us what your overall feeling was seeing him there.

1450
01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:33.000
<v Speaker 6>And well, it actually never went to trial. They there

1451
01:18:33.000 --> 01:18:39.359
<v Speaker 6>were some issues that came up. They said that they

1452
01:18:39.399 --> 01:18:44.159
<v Speaker 6>had found some work records that might have proved that

1453
01:18:44.199 --> 01:18:48.079
<v Speaker 6>he was working during one of these cases. And in

1454
01:18:48.319 --> 01:18:51.880
<v Speaker 6>the prosecutor at the time, very very good prosecutor, probably

1455
01:18:51.880 --> 01:18:54.319
<v Speaker 6>one of the best in the state. He felt like,

1456
01:18:54.399 --> 01:18:56.640
<v Speaker 6>if we had doubt in one, you know, we had

1457
01:18:56.680 --> 01:19:00.520
<v Speaker 6>one shot at this pretty much in one. Juror gave

1458
01:19:00.600 --> 01:19:03.760
<v Speaker 6>us problems with this, things that they were bringing out

1459
01:19:03.800 --> 01:19:08.079
<v Speaker 6>that we, you know, we may have problems. So they offered.

1460
01:19:08.279 --> 01:19:12.039
<v Speaker 6>The defense offered to plead guilty to all of them

1461
01:19:12.119 --> 01:19:14.520
<v Speaker 6>for life in prison, the rest of his life in prison,

1462
01:19:15.039 --> 01:19:17.880
<v Speaker 6>and he just felt like this would be a guaranteed

1463
01:19:17.920 --> 01:19:19.600
<v Speaker 6>way to make sure he never got off the streets.

1464
01:19:19.760 --> 01:19:21.159
<v Speaker 6>We could go in and try to get the death

1465
01:19:21.199 --> 01:19:24.520
<v Speaker 6>penalty and lose. Then we've lost it, you know, with

1466
01:19:24.560 --> 01:19:26.600
<v Speaker 6>the evidence, and we didn't have time to go search

1467
01:19:26.640 --> 01:19:28.640
<v Speaker 6>the evidence out that they had come up with, which

1468
01:19:28.720 --> 01:19:31.600
<v Speaker 6>later we found out was a time card for a

1469
01:19:31.680 --> 01:19:34.560
<v Speaker 6>job that he worked, did show that he was working,

1470
01:19:35.840 --> 01:19:37.399
<v Speaker 6>but we found out what his job was at that

1471
01:19:37.439 --> 01:19:40.560
<v Speaker 6>place was doing the time cards. So it's been very

1472
01:19:40.640 --> 01:19:44.159
<v Speaker 6>much for him to fabricate a time card for when

1473
01:19:44.159 --> 01:19:46.640
<v Speaker 6>he's outs but we didn't have time to investigate that

1474
01:19:46.680 --> 01:19:49.239
<v Speaker 6>at the time, and they want to have accepted the plea,

1475
01:19:49.319 --> 01:19:52.680
<v Speaker 6>and he went into open court and pled guilty, and

1476
01:19:52.720 --> 01:19:55.840
<v Speaker 6>by pleading guilty, he had to openly admit that he

1477
01:19:55.880 --> 01:19:59.439
<v Speaker 6>had committed the crimes. And it did take away any

1478
01:19:59.520 --> 01:20:03.119
<v Speaker 6>possible cities for appeals for him. So it was kind

1479
01:20:03.159 --> 01:20:06.800
<v Speaker 6>of a in some ways it was good. I mean,

1480
01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:09.239
<v Speaker 6>we would you know, I think the families would have

1481
01:20:09.319 --> 01:20:11.159
<v Speaker 6>liked to have seen the death penalty. And I'm not

1482
01:20:11.199 --> 01:20:12.560
<v Speaker 6>going to sit here and say I wouldn't have liked

1483
01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:14.800
<v Speaker 6>to have seen that too. But if there ever was

1484
01:20:14.840 --> 01:20:17.000
<v Speaker 6>a person that's a poster child for the death penalty,

1485
01:20:17.039 --> 01:20:21.039
<v Speaker 6>he who was it? But I think we now know

1486
01:20:21.199 --> 01:20:24.720
<v Speaker 6>that he's going to die in prison. So that's that's

1487
01:20:25.079 --> 01:20:25.640
<v Speaker 6>good enough.

1488
01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:29.159
<v Speaker 2>It has to be enough. Yes, that has to be enough,

1489
01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:33.479
<v Speaker 2>and that's a success. The question I ask is that typically,

1490
01:20:33.520 --> 01:20:35.920
<v Speaker 2>and I know he probably had a court appointed lawyer,

1491
01:20:36.479 --> 01:20:40.319
<v Speaker 2>but did that lawyer do his best in terms of

1492
01:20:40.399 --> 01:20:45.239
<v Speaker 2>vigorous defense? If he he should have known that there

1493
01:20:45.319 --> 01:20:48.760
<v Speaker 2>was some difficulty with making this case, shouldn't he have?

1494
01:20:49.279 --> 01:20:52.279
<v Speaker 2>And then as a result, but this is not much

1495
01:20:52.279 --> 01:20:55.479
<v Speaker 2>of a good deal. That he's you know, there was

1496
01:20:55.520 --> 01:20:56.239
<v Speaker 2>the agreement this.

1497
01:20:56.880 --> 01:21:04.920
<v Speaker 6>Actually good attorney that represented him was not the original

1498
01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:06.640
<v Speaker 6>attorney that he had in the beginning. When he got

1499
01:21:06.640 --> 01:21:09.760
<v Speaker 6>to Texas. The original attorney somehow got excused from the

1500
01:21:09.800 --> 01:21:13.760
<v Speaker 6>case after going along a pretty good bit, so they

1501
01:21:13.800 --> 01:21:18.039
<v Speaker 6>had to postpone for the new attorney to familiarize himself

1502
01:21:18.079 --> 01:21:19.560
<v Speaker 6>with the case. So I think that's why it took

1503
01:21:19.640 --> 01:21:22.800
<v Speaker 6>a long time for this to actually go through the

1504
01:21:22.840 --> 01:21:26.079
<v Speaker 6>court process, because he had changed the attorneys. I do

1505
01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:28.680
<v Speaker 6>think that he had a good attorney. The guy was

1506
01:21:28.680 --> 01:21:35.359
<v Speaker 6>a good attorney. He we asked permission to I probably

1507
01:21:35.359 --> 01:21:37.600
<v Speaker 6>shouldn't say this, but we had asked permission that we

1508
01:21:37.640 --> 01:21:39.600
<v Speaker 6>wanted to talk to Pentton after he played guilty because

1509
01:21:39.640 --> 01:21:44.319
<v Speaker 6>we wanted to know what were we right on and

1510
01:21:44.359 --> 01:21:46.199
<v Speaker 6>what were we wrong on? Did we miss some things?

1511
01:21:46.239 --> 01:21:48.039
<v Speaker 6>I mean, because we figured once he's played guilty, there's

1512
01:21:48.039 --> 01:21:49.720
<v Speaker 6>no reason for him not to tell us anything. And

1513
01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:52.039
<v Speaker 6>we went to his attorney and asked him, I could

1514
01:21:52.039 --> 01:21:54.920
<v Speaker 6>we speak to him and he wouldn't allow it, and

1515
01:21:55.880 --> 01:22:02.680
<v Speaker 6>we kind of sort of under his breath told us

1516
01:22:02.720 --> 01:22:04.239
<v Speaker 6>he couldn't let him talk to us for fear of

1517
01:22:04.319 --> 01:22:07.239
<v Speaker 6>him implicating himself. In other cases, So we kind of

1518
01:22:07.319 --> 01:22:10.399
<v Speaker 6>knew rapped the end that there were more cases. So

1519
01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:12.439
<v Speaker 6>he wasn't gonna let us talk to him because he

1520
01:22:12.439 --> 01:22:15.920
<v Speaker 6>didn't want us digging those out of him. So his attorney,

1521
01:22:15.960 --> 01:22:18.239
<v Speaker 6>I think knew, But he did do a very I

1522
01:22:18.239 --> 01:22:20.840
<v Speaker 6>think he was a good attorney, did a good job

1523
01:22:21.000 --> 01:22:26.520
<v Speaker 6>as far as I don't I don't know how well

1524
01:22:26.520 --> 01:22:27.119
<v Speaker 6>it must have been.

1525
01:22:27.319 --> 01:22:32.319
<v Speaker 2>Obviously, despite not getting a confession, obviously you had enough

1526
01:22:32.319 --> 01:22:36.960
<v Speaker 2>evidence to you know, compel that a plea agreement. And

1527
01:22:37.039 --> 01:22:38.920
<v Speaker 2>the plea agreement that he got is to spend the

1528
01:22:38.920 --> 01:22:42.279
<v Speaker 2>rest of his life in prison, So you know, I mean,

1529
01:22:42.279 --> 01:22:45.279
<v Speaker 2>when you have a death penalty case, that's a heck

1530
01:22:45.319 --> 01:22:48.840
<v Speaker 2>of a thing to try to avoid. So you know,

1531
01:22:48.840 --> 01:22:52.279
<v Speaker 2>if you didn't start off in a death penalty capital case,

1532
01:22:53.039 --> 01:22:56.720
<v Speaker 2>then you know, it's a hell of a way to

1533
01:22:56.800 --> 01:22:59.680
<v Speaker 2>get a plea agreement that ends up like this. Let's

1534
01:22:59.680 --> 01:23:02.279
<v Speaker 2>put it that way. In some states, it's it's hard.

1535
01:23:02.600 --> 01:23:06.000
<v Speaker 2>There is no device in terms of uh, there's always

1536
01:23:06.039 --> 01:23:06.680
<v Speaker 2>a parle hearing.

1537
01:23:07.560 --> 01:23:13.439
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, well it's a good thing for parole, yeah,

1538
01:23:13.439 --> 01:23:13.840
<v Speaker 6>I think so.

1539
01:23:15.439 --> 01:23:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that it's it's sad that in some

1540
01:23:18.960 --> 01:23:21.840
<v Speaker 2>states and in Canada, we have that where there's there's

1541
01:23:21.880 --> 01:23:24.880
<v Speaker 2>always a parole hearing, you know, whether it's multiple murder

1542
01:23:25.000 --> 01:23:29.640
<v Speaker 2>like Robert Picton thirty three or twenty six or whatever

1543
01:23:29.680 --> 01:23:33.279
<v Speaker 2>the tally, he still has a parole hearing, not in

1544
01:23:33.319 --> 01:23:36.039
<v Speaker 2>a consecutive fashion, so it's not a one hundred years

1545
01:23:36.079 --> 01:23:38.159
<v Speaker 2>from now. He has a parle hearing as a pro

1546
01:23:38.239 --> 01:23:42.439
<v Speaker 2>hearing pretty soon, so very well, you know, even regardless

1547
01:23:42.960 --> 01:23:43.399
<v Speaker 2>for me.

1548
01:23:44.720 --> 01:23:46.880
<v Speaker 6>He will have a pro hearing. He is eligible for

1549
01:23:46.920 --> 01:23:50.880
<v Speaker 6>pro in Ohio in twenty twenty seven. But the thing

1550
01:23:50.960 --> 01:23:52.800
<v Speaker 6>is that if she is parole in Ohio, he has

1551
01:23:52.840 --> 01:23:54.399
<v Speaker 6>to come to Texas and starve out the rest of

1552
01:23:54.399 --> 01:23:56.479
<v Speaker 6>his life, so he may face a parole hearing there.

1553
01:23:57.119 --> 01:23:58.840
<v Speaker 6>I think he wants to stay there. I'm sure. I'm

1554
01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:03.960
<v Speaker 6>sure he'll not want to be paroled. Yeah, he's probably

1555
01:24:04.000 --> 01:24:04.800
<v Speaker 6>comfortable there.

1556
01:24:07.640 --> 01:24:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, still have to be.

1557
01:24:10.439 --> 01:24:10.720
<v Speaker 6>Gary.

1558
01:24:10.760 --> 01:24:12.640
<v Speaker 2>I want to thank you very much for coming on.

1559
01:24:12.760 --> 01:24:15.000
<v Speaker 2>And I want to tell people too that you've been

1560
01:24:15.039 --> 01:24:18.800
<v Speaker 2>listening to Gary sweet and uh and you are the

1561
01:24:18.880 --> 01:24:22.399
<v Speaker 2>person that they talk about. Steve Jackson talks about so

1562
01:24:22.479 --> 01:24:27.159
<v Speaker 2>eloquenttry eloquently in his book Boogie Man, and so that's

1563
01:24:27.359 --> 01:24:30.000
<v Speaker 2>the book just came out and how was that for you?

1564
01:24:30.199 --> 01:24:33.359
<v Speaker 2>Seeing your yourself on the pages of a true crime book.

1565
01:24:36.760 --> 01:24:40.520
<v Speaker 6>Kind of it is a little surreal. I guess it's

1566
01:24:40.520 --> 01:24:43.079
<v Speaker 6>flattering that a writer the caliber of Steve Jackson would

1567
01:24:43.079 --> 01:24:44.880
<v Speaker 6>write a story about a case that I've worked on.

1568
01:24:46.640 --> 01:24:50.760
<v Speaker 6>That's pretty flattering. I had the privilege of meeting him

1569
01:24:51.079 --> 01:24:54.560
<v Speaker 6>on another case that I had worked, another cold case,

1570
01:24:55.319 --> 01:24:59.479
<v Speaker 6>and which was a crazy story in itself. But yeah,

1571
01:24:59.560 --> 01:25:02.159
<v Speaker 6>to to have a Roterlck Steve write a story about

1572
01:25:02.159 --> 01:25:05.760
<v Speaker 6>a case that's very flattering.

1573
01:25:06.079 --> 01:25:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And I think, you know, it's nice. What I

1574
01:25:07.960 --> 01:25:11.239
<v Speaker 2>think is nice too, is the true crime writer like

1575
01:25:11.800 --> 01:25:14.840
<v Speaker 2>of the caliber of Steve Jackson, with all his experience too,

1576
01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:20.399
<v Speaker 2>is that it really it really compliments this and a

1577
01:25:20.920 --> 01:25:25.439
<v Speaker 2>very much essential the next step in terms of you.

1578
01:25:25.880 --> 01:25:27.720
<v Speaker 2>You are the people that do the dirty work. You're

1579
01:25:27.760 --> 01:25:32.079
<v Speaker 2>the people that do all the heavy lifting and have

1580
01:25:32.119 --> 01:25:36.439
<v Speaker 2>to live this literally. But Steve Jackson, through his talent,

1581
01:25:37.000 --> 01:25:41.000
<v Speaker 2>brings that to life and conveys that important story and

1582
01:25:41.079 --> 01:25:43.720
<v Speaker 2>what we all can learn from reading this book. And

1583
01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I think, just like we spoke about in this interview

1584
01:25:47.960 --> 01:25:51.279
<v Speaker 2>and in the Steve Jackson interview as well, that fate

1585
01:25:51.359 --> 01:25:55.920
<v Speaker 2>really intervened and you could say where this came from

1586
01:25:55.960 --> 01:26:00.600
<v Speaker 2>or where it emanated from. But strange things happened, much

1587
01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:03.319
<v Speaker 2>stranger than fiction to be able to make this case

1588
01:26:03.359 --> 01:26:06.359
<v Speaker 2>and to bring this person to justice and get some

1589
01:26:07.119 --> 01:26:12.960
<v Speaker 2>answers for the victims' families. And so I want to

1590
01:26:13.039 --> 01:26:18.319
<v Speaker 2>thank you very much and congratulate you on beem famous

1591
01:26:18.319 --> 01:26:20.399
<v Speaker 2>in Steve Jackson's books. I want to thank you very

1592
01:26:20.479 --> 01:26:24.239
<v Speaker 2>much for coming on and talking about real life experiences.

1593
01:26:24.720 --> 01:26:26.920
<v Speaker 6>I appreciate it. The you know, fame is not something

1594
01:26:26.960 --> 01:26:29.680
<v Speaker 6>to really look for. You want to retire quietly someday

1595
01:26:29.720 --> 01:26:32.560
<v Speaker 6>and just go away, but I do. I mean I

1596
01:26:33.039 --> 01:26:34.640
<v Speaker 6>want to. I want to get copies of that book

1597
01:26:34.640 --> 01:26:36.439
<v Speaker 6>and give it to my grandkids so they'll know their

1598
01:26:36.439 --> 01:26:39.520
<v Speaker 6>grandfather at least did something in his life. But it

1599
01:26:40.680 --> 01:26:44.159
<v Speaker 6>I was telling someone about the book. I knew the ending,

1600
01:26:44.680 --> 01:26:47.039
<v Speaker 6>and when I started reading it, I couldn't put it down.

1601
01:26:47.279 --> 01:26:49.840
<v Speaker 6>That's crazy. I knew the whole story. But Steve is

1602
01:26:49.880 --> 01:26:53.560
<v Speaker 6>such a good writer. I'm thinking, wow, yeah it was.

1603
01:26:53.600 --> 01:26:57.560
<v Speaker 6>It was really interesting. But anyway, I appreciate getting to

1604
01:26:57.560 --> 01:26:57.920
<v Speaker 6>come on.

1605
01:26:59.640 --> 01:27:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's been very nice Gary for you to come

1606
01:27:01.960 --> 01:27:06.079
<v Speaker 2>on and share your experiences. It's not very often, if

1607
01:27:06.119 --> 01:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>at all. It's very very rare to get your perspective,

1608
01:27:09.039 --> 01:27:13.359
<v Speaker 2>a detective perspective someone that lived through something like this.

1609
01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:16.359
<v Speaker 2>And even though you don't get too many happy endings,

1610
01:27:16.399 --> 01:27:19.479
<v Speaker 2>that's it's and it's not a happy ending because of

1611
01:27:19.520 --> 01:27:22.760
<v Speaker 2>the victims' families that it again, it's just there is

1612
01:27:22.840 --> 01:27:27.239
<v Speaker 2>satisfaction in getting something that's very difficult done and achieved

1613
01:27:27.479 --> 01:27:31.960
<v Speaker 2>and and you're still you know, you still retain your

1614
01:27:32.000 --> 01:27:35.880
<v Speaker 2>sanity after all this, So that's admirable in itself, right there.

1615
01:27:36.039 --> 01:27:43.079
<v Speaker 6>So well, yeah, it's I hope I'll retain you my sayingity.

1616
01:27:43.119 --> 01:27:44.920
<v Speaker 6>I still keep that file under my desk, and I

1617
01:27:44.960 --> 01:27:47.119
<v Speaker 6>still have the inspiration book that it talks about still

1618
01:27:47.159 --> 01:27:48.560
<v Speaker 6>sitting in the same place. I haven't been able to

1619
01:27:48.640 --> 01:27:50.880
<v Speaker 6>let go of that stuff even as long as it's

1620
01:27:50.920 --> 01:27:54.960
<v Speaker 6>been and hopefully when I retire, I can let it go,

1621
01:27:55.039 --> 01:27:57.600
<v Speaker 6>but I really still can't. So it does kind of

1622
01:27:57.600 --> 01:28:01.119
<v Speaker 6>stick with you. The only case I have like this

1623
01:28:01.279 --> 01:28:03.760
<v Speaker 6>is the biggest one I have like that, But I

1624
01:28:03.800 --> 01:28:06.119
<v Speaker 6>have a couple other ones that you just can't let go.

1625
01:28:08.079 --> 01:28:09.640
<v Speaker 6>Hope it's not a problem later.

1626
01:28:11.159 --> 01:28:14.079
<v Speaker 2>Yes, absolutely, Well, I'm sure Steve will dig up one

1627
01:28:14.119 --> 01:28:16.880
<v Speaker 2>of your other stories and bring this it to life

1628
01:28:16.920 --> 01:28:19.800
<v Speaker 2>as well, so we'll hopefully we'll be able to talk

1629
01:28:19.880 --> 01:28:22.720
<v Speaker 2>to you again and sometime in the future. But anyway,

1630
01:28:22.760 --> 01:28:24.560
<v Speaker 2>you have yourself a great evening, Gary, and thank you

1631
01:28:24.680 --> 01:28:29.399
<v Speaker 2>very much. Thanks once again, good night, thank you very much.

1632
01:28:31.600 --> 01:28:31.960
<v Speaker 6>Good night.