Speaker 1: With Laurent's segle And from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin.
Speaker 1: This is Redefining.
Speaker 2: Energy today, on Redefining Energy, this is our annual episode
Speaker 2: on the state of the PPR market in Europe, and
Speaker 2: also going to talk a bit about the US and.
Speaker 1: We're going to have Luca Well, the co founder PEXA Park,
Speaker 1: to come out and have a chat about it. I mean,
Speaker 1: this guy's is knowledge as they can and around these areas,
Speaker 1: and they've also recently moved into the US, so we
Speaker 1: also learn a little bit about that market as.
Speaker 2: Well, and picks up Park for those who don't know
Speaker 2: who that company is, is really the leader in assessing
Speaker 2: the prices of PPA and they have accumulated so much
Speaker 2: database over the years, so whenever you want to do
Speaker 2: a PPA or you have a PPA, they're so important
Speaker 2: in pricing those long term assets.
Speaker 1: Absolutely critical service. It's all about data, data, data these days.
Speaker 2: Right, Let's bring Lucia in the show. Lucia, welcome to
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're a repeat of vendor. We like you very much, showed.
Speaker 2: That's your third time here and we'd like to have
Speaker 2: you first because your episode downloads a lot, and the
Speaker 2: second is because there's a lot of valuable information to share.
Speaker 2: So you just published your early report on the PPA
Speaker 2: market in Europe. What are your main takeaways.
Speaker 4: It was a kind of fascinating year in PPA last year,
Speaker 4: and what we're probably witnessing is the end of the
Speaker 4: simple PPA. We had five good years of doing one
Speaker 4: deal left to the other in Europe and now we
Speaker 4: see negative prices, low capture rate and possibly a big
Speaker 4: demand saturation for standard of solid and it creates significant
Speaker 4: changes to how PPAs are done.
Speaker 1: What you're saying is that we now have to deal
Speaker 1: with risk that wasn't there beforehand.
Speaker 4: Well, it has been changing always from year to year,
Speaker 4: but I think the market has solved cheap renewable production
Speaker 4: and there's now a new barrier.
Speaker 3: There's a new challenge.
Speaker 4: Ahead, which is we need to produce what the client wants,
Speaker 4: and there's this demand saturation for standalone sold the profile
Speaker 4: in certain markets and it takes more work to produce
Speaker 4: a firmer green profile and that's actually a very good development.
Speaker 4: It means the industry has matured.
Speaker 1: Could you dig into that a little bit more, because
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, there's a risk of
Speaker 1: what you're saying is sunny day, too much sun? You know,
Speaker 1: the price is zero. So then I sort of go
Speaker 1: as somebody's buying, I go, oh, why would I pay
Speaker 1: someone fifty euros when I can get it for zero?
Speaker 3: Right, that's number one.
Speaker 1: And I understand from the seller side they want to
Speaker 1: get fifty euros and not zero, So there's that mismatch.
Speaker 1: So how do you bring them together?
Speaker 4: I say, yeah, So first of all, we have to
Speaker 4: focus on what the buyer wants, and the buyer want
Speaker 4: different profiles. They want to procure during the night, during
Speaker 4: the morning hours, and there is a market there for
Speaker 4: green production. And the way you solve this or how
Speaker 4: the market is adjusting and already twenty percent of the
Speaker 4: deals last year we're like that is that you combine
Speaker 4: different renewable technologies. So very simply bring together wind solar,
Speaker 4: add a bit of storage, and with that you can
Speaker 4: create the profiles buyers want. Because the solar profile at
Speaker 4: noon this is over. I mean we have sufficient production
Speaker 4: then everyone is producing then, so that's served already.
Speaker 2: If I look at your data on I see number
Speaker 2: of PPAs going up, volume of PPA going down overall,
Speaker 2: which means each PPA is a big tinier and it's
Speaker 2: the corpyright who are really the big buyer. So the
Speaker 2: utilities are not really in the game anymore. Maybe they're
Speaker 2: going to come back. You're going to tell us is
Speaker 2: it just your average big tech or did you see
Speaker 2: new players coming on the market.
Speaker 3: This is really fascinating.
Speaker 4: So we have like eighty percent of all the deals
Speaker 4: are corporate, as you pointed out, it's more than three
Speaker 4: hundred deals. But extremely interesting is more than hundred and
Speaker 4: fifty of the corporate buyers are first time buyers in
Speaker 4: the market. And yes, we had a decrease in the
Speaker 4: reported PPA volume the last year because the deal size
Speaker 4: has got smaller, so the average deal is now below
Speaker 4: fifty megawatt used to be seventy eighty megavot. But the
Speaker 4: actual capacity realized on the PPAs has increased. So while
Speaker 4: the report the PPA volume is like fifteen gigawat, the
Speaker 4: capacity realized under this PPAs are twenty gigabot. So that's
Speaker 4: an interesting twist to how the market played out.
Speaker 2: I see also that the main market remains Spain and
Speaker 2: then you have Germany, Fronts, Italy.
Speaker 4: Gb We have been predicting for Germany to take it
Speaker 4: over in Spain, but I think it was just too
Speaker 4: good and too growing. On the Spanish side, I think
Speaker 4: it's now five years in a row where the market
Speaker 4: was the biggest. But that's actually a good case Spain
Speaker 4: where we do see barriers to growth. We can't just
Speaker 4: continue to do standalone solar anymore, so you will see
Speaker 4: an epic boom in co located project solar and storage.
Speaker 4: There's a huge premium or demand for wind profiles. You
Speaker 4: see basically already half of all the deals in Spain
Speaker 4: being combined solar and wind, so they are the frontier
Speaker 4: and this is something which you're gonna see then spreading
Speaker 4: across Europe. And right now it is all corporates. But
Speaker 4: I wouldn't be surprised to see a bigger role of utilities.
Speaker 4: And we have been forecasting this already for two years.
Speaker 4: It didn't materialize. But when you need more intelligence, because
Speaker 4: you need to combine and synthesize production to produce therma profile,
Speaker 4: you need more energy intelligence and this is something which
Speaker 4: utilities and modern retailers can provide. So I wouldn't be
Speaker 4: surprised to see a stronger role of utilities or modern
Speaker 4: intermediaries in the next years.
Speaker 2: Ahead, which means that also that's going to combine with
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven trucking and probably trading or optimizing.
Speaker 3: I guess correct.
Speaker 4: You need intelligence for that, So first you need the
Speaker 4: infrastructure to track, but then you need to have the
Speaker 4: ability to combine intelligently. Twenty four seven is the holy grail.
Speaker 4: It's still a wallet buster in most markets where the
Speaker 4: underlying physical realities are still that you have a fossil stock.
Speaker 4: But right now we're at the stage of just simply
Speaker 4: doing a deal having soul and wind together, which are
Speaker 4: not yet a firm profile. So where the real value
Speaker 4: is in is to guarantee an hourly or a fixed
Speaker 4: shape green and this is then where you need really size.
Speaker 4: So you need bigger investors that can do multiple technologies
Speaker 4: in multiple markets. You need investors that can have a
Speaker 4: team optimizing and planning this, or if you don't have that,
Speaker 4: you have third parties providing this service. And this is
Speaker 4: what I call the utilities or modern intermediaries or retailers.
Speaker 2: So it's pretty much the death of the independent develobo
Speaker 2: that's what you're saying.
Speaker 4: Probably not the death, it's basically we have witnessed over
Speaker 4: the last two years the end of the independent portfolio manager.
Speaker 4: So you have KK and large private equity companies buying
Speaker 4: all the platforms providing scale because just doing development for
Speaker 4: a single technology, I think this there is a certain
Speaker 4: limit to that.
Speaker 1: What you're really saying is like scale matters. It's now
Speaker 1: became on a big boys game.
Speaker 4: It's scale and it's energy intelligence. So there is a
Speaker 4: play for smart intermediation. So if you have an edge
Speaker 4: in combining, in planning, in forecasting, in synthesizing, there is
Speaker 4: a much more value now in the actual delivery of
Speaker 4: these screen products than it used to be before because
Speaker 4: right now it is basically you just sell whenever there
Speaker 4: is some and wind this energy is sold. You don't
Speaker 4: need to do anything actively.
Speaker 1: Okay, which of course is going to change going forward.
Speaker 1: Right that's the whole point. Okay, very interesting, Okay.
Speaker 2: I continue to scroll down your report and there are
Speaker 2: very interesting price signals, you know, around negative prices, capture
Speaker 2: rate and so on, and it looks really like it's
Speaker 2: going worse. And well, so if we think about the
Speaker 2: start of including more batteries. Now I know GB has
Speaker 2: as taken lead and now Germany is pretty hot. I mean,
Speaker 2: Spain looks like it would be a natural, but I
Speaker 2: guess here it's more a regulation bottleneck than anything else.
Speaker 2: What do you hear from the market.
Speaker 4: Every country is trying a bit by itself how to regulate,
Speaker 4: how to do so. I think this is going to
Speaker 4: be figured out in the end. It's just going to
Speaker 4: be plain economics. Costs have been falling on the investment
Speaker 4: side for standalone renewables. Low capture is becoming a pain
Speaker 4: at negative power prices are adding value to storage, so
Speaker 4: it's just a factor of time that this will be resolved.
Speaker 4: The big question for me is whether we will see
Speaker 4: more co location or whether we'll be more a standalone
Speaker 4: storage play like in the US where most of the
Speaker 4: deals are tolls, so basically a PPA for a standalone
Speaker 4: battery adding services to the grid, or just pure arbitrage.
Speaker 4: And that's something which is not yet fully clear how
Speaker 4: this will play out.
Speaker 2: Well, from what I've seen in a recent conference in
Speaker 2: London and the story show Meet all the race is
Speaker 2: on tolling. You could hear it everywhere. Everybody wanted to
Speaker 2: do tolling. On one hand, as an infrastry investor, I'm
Speaker 2: happy to leave a lot of the optionality on the
Speaker 2: table provided I get my nineteen percent return. And on
Speaker 2: the others there's a lot of Yeah, as you say,
Speaker 2: begin a trader who are happy to swap fix for
Speaker 2: viable and optimize that portfolio. Whereas co location, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of opportunities you miss because you are co located,
Speaker 2: so in fact you're sharing the same pipe with your set.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this will be very interesting.
Speaker 4: So first on the tolls, we will see what is
Speaker 4: the role of utilities, like who is providing those tolls?
Speaker 3: So these are not corporate.
Speaker 4: That's why we actually believe there is a bigger role
Speaker 4: for utilities to play. And then again this is a
Speaker 4: matter of scale and aggregate. Batteries make a lot of
Speaker 4: sense on single assets, as you pointed out, but they're
Speaker 4: even more interesting if you have a bigger portfolio of
Speaker 4: multiple assets, of various storage units, so that you can
Speaker 4: look at it from a portfolio size and you have
Speaker 4: much more optionality in what you want to deliver and
Speaker 4: where you can extract value on the various markets. So
Speaker 4: PPA is just one outlet that's a long term supply,
Speaker 4: but there are of course multiple additional markets. If you
Speaker 4: go down the timeframe ontel delivery.
Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about the role of
Speaker 1: batteries within PPAs, and I don't mean totaling, and I
Speaker 1: mean as part of a PPA in other words, back
Speaker 1: to this whole idea of firming wind and sola up.
Speaker 1: Are you seeing strong developments in that area and it's
Speaker 1: so could you just give an example of how that works,
Speaker 1: because I'm trying to get my head around is it
Speaker 1: that you're doing it when the sun goes down? Just
Speaker 1: describe how the power is being developed. Is it for
Speaker 1: ten hours a day, five hours? How do these work
Speaker 1: or is a certain amount of a week or is
Speaker 1: it just whatever I produce you take? Just talk a
Speaker 1: little bit a bit about that and how batteries then
Speaker 1: changes everything.
Speaker 4: There are a few principal structures emerging. One is shaping,
Speaker 4: so you agree with the off taker that for certain
Speaker 4: hours during the day, typically the high value hours, you
Speaker 4: have a certain commitment of volume, which is basically enabled
Speaker 4: by the battery. The other way is basically you just
Speaker 4: hand over both assets to the off taker, who then
Speaker 4: optimizes and you just get a premium on top of
Speaker 4: your PPA price. So these are the two extremes which we.
Speaker 1: Are seeing and how do you see it going forward.
Speaker 4: It depends a bit on which market we look at
Speaker 4: and how regulation plays out, but we would probably see
Speaker 4: a fast growing market for standalone tolls and the main
Speaker 4: play they are going to be basically arbitroge, so red
Speaker 4: services are quickly saturated because those markets are limited. And
Speaker 4: you see this in the advanced markets like in urcutt
Speaker 4: or in the UK where batteries within two three years
Speaker 4: took over the ancillary service market and basically have flattened
Speaker 4: that out, which is the great development. And what then
Speaker 4: remains really after those grid services are provided is the
Speaker 4: arbitrush play by low sell high.
Speaker 1: Okay, can I also just to ask you a little
Speaker 1: bit about the duration of the contracts in other words,
Speaker 1: and where I'm coming from and this at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, is the longer the duration, the lower
Speaker 1: the cost. It is the finance staring renewables project. So
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that and how you see
Speaker 1: that going forward.
Speaker 4: We just can look at markets which are more advanced
Speaker 4: in the tolling space in Urcotte textas where we see
Speaker 4: typical tenors of five to seven years on tolls and
Speaker 4: this is also what we would expect in Europe, so
Speaker 4: slightly shorter than typical PPAs where we talk ten twelve
Speaker 4: years of duration.
Speaker 2: And the prices so the process have gone down. And
Speaker 2: of course there's always that problem that you have those
Speaker 2: government options, which generally are basically a best produced no margining,
Speaker 2: so they're pretty good.
Speaker 4: Yes, there will be an interplace. You see this very
Speaker 4: similar on the PPA market. So the PPAs stand in
Speaker 4: competition with options, and you clearly see an interplay prices.
Speaker 4: So if there is an option from the government in
Speaker 4: Germany for solar, this will have an immediate impact on
Speaker 4: PPA prices and vice versa. The same thing would happen
Speaker 4: as well in the battery space.
Speaker 3: If a government puts up.
Speaker 4: A nice option with artificially high prices, it will not
Speaker 4: allow a private market to develop, just because the private
Speaker 4: market will work on commodity prices. And the main value
Speaker 4: driver here is not the absolute price level, but the
Speaker 4: price volatility and the spreads. And it's very dynamic and
Speaker 4: can change very quickly. Right now everyone is looking at
Speaker 4: those charts where we have exploding negative prices, but this
Speaker 4: can go away very very quickly. I mean we add
Speaker 4: four or five kikabottes of storage to Germany and a
Speaker 4: lot of negative prices. Will beck On again.
Speaker 2: You started referencing Texas got a bit because the great
Speaker 2: news is that Pixa Park is now going to America.
Speaker 2: So before you go into your special move, can you
Speaker 2: compare a bit the size of the market in your
Speaker 2: hope and in America. Although we all know America is California,
Speaker 2: Racote PGM, it's a bit of a spaghetti play, So
Speaker 2: what can you share with us?
Speaker 4: Roughly the markets are similarly sized. I would say the
Speaker 4: storage market is much bigger in the US overall, but
Speaker 4: the PPA market Europe would be like we were fifteen
Speaker 4: gigawatt last year in the US it was twelve fourteen gigawatte.
Speaker 4: The market element is much smaller in the US. So
Speaker 4: you have aircots, which is really a traded market where
Speaker 4: there's a lot of dynamic price changes. You have a
Speaker 4: wholesale element, and it's very similar to.
Speaker 3: What we would see in Europe.
Speaker 4: But in the US we have a lot of regulated
Speaker 4: markets where a utility owns the entire value chain from generation,
Speaker 4: transmission to distribution and they do PPAs. But it's basically
Speaker 4: an action and then of course the biggest element. In
Speaker 4: the US, it's all fueled by tax credits. That's the
Speaker 4: main instrument how the energy transition has been put forward,
Speaker 4: and this can amount to forty fifty sixty percent of
Speaker 4: the capex of a renewable asset or a storage, whereas
Speaker 4: in Europe two thirds of the renewable capacity realized is
Speaker 4: under options and the third is onder ppa. So these
Speaker 4: are more or less the big differences, maybe one more.
Speaker 4: The sizes of the deals are much bigger in the US,
Speaker 4: and it's probably just a space factor. When we top
Speaker 4: forty seven mega in Europe, the sizes in Aircutt are
Speaker 4: easily two hundred macawatts, and I guess it's really just
Speaker 4: the availability of space.
Speaker 2: Well, on the top of that, in the US you
Speaker 2: often have a nodule prices, which is another layer of complexity.
Speaker 3: Good point.
Speaker 4: Yes, this is definitely a different pricing system. We have
Speaker 4: very large price zones in Europe, so Germany is one
Speaker 4: price zone wherever you feed in the same price. That's
Speaker 4: completely different in the US, where you have a nodal
Speaker 4: system which adds a different Yeah, they call it basis
Speaker 4: risk at different price and cost structure into your revenue.
Speaker 1: Look, the other thing is I read with interest your
Speaker 1: five predictions and I'd love you to go through them again. Right,
Speaker 1: So negative price clauses, standardize, multi technology PPA is double
Speaker 1: best off, takes expand utility, PPA volumes flatten and go
Speaker 1: to corporate PPA is volumes uncertain. Now the one actually
Speaker 1: a little bit the start with is that growth of
Speaker 1: corporate PPA volumes on certain to explain a little bit
Speaker 1: about that, and then you can just talk in general
Speaker 1: about your protection.
Speaker 4: There the easy volume on the corporate side has gone,
Speaker 4: so the easy credit to go to credit has been contracted,
Speaker 4: and most corporates now in the market are either smaller
Speaker 4: or they would like to have a profile matching more
Speaker 4: their consumption. So in anything we do in the corporate
Speaker 4: PPA market absent absolute growth, which we don't have in Europe,
Speaker 4: we need to deliver different profiles. So the innovation is
Speaker 4: happening on two front. Either synthesizing green profiles so we're
Speaker 4: adding different renewables, adding storage so we can deliver a
Speaker 4: green profile, or selling two smaller corporates. And I think
Speaker 4: this is the two big innovations which we're seeing in
Speaker 4: Europe where you have players active trying to solve those challenges.
Speaker 1: Way in relation to that, I mean, what's your view
Speaker 1: on the US market that's Europe right in terms of
Speaker 1: the PPA is that do you see that as a
Speaker 1: growing market.
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a big difference. That there is headline
Speaker 4: growth on demand. That's something which we don't have in Europe.
Speaker 4: It is not just AI, but it's a broad band
Speaker 4: that you have reshuring of industrial activities and this is
Speaker 4: just overall you have growth year on year on the
Speaker 4: absolute demand.
Speaker 1: Okay, very helpful, thank you.
Speaker 2: And the other predictions, maybe.
Speaker 1: The whole thing about best which is obviously batteries at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, talk a little bit about that,
Speaker 1: and also the Europe your US, how you see.
Speaker 3: That on the other predictions.
Speaker 4: So we're quite firm on basically doubling the multi technology deals.
Speaker 4: So the biggest challenges were we mapped out our negative prices,
Speaker 4: low capture value, and demand saturation for standalone renewable profiles.
Speaker 4: The solution to that is combining technology and adding intelligence,
Speaker 4: which is stored. So we're bullish on expanding storage and
Speaker 4: expanding multi technology deals for these reasons and on the
Speaker 4: actual volume we have to see, but we were pretty
Speaker 4: Polish Just to have basically strong structural growth in these areas.
Speaker 2: Good and the price going up because I see the
Speaker 2: price of gas, it's not the same as last year.
Speaker 4: Well in Europe definitely, the gas is still a major
Speaker 4: contributor to wholesale prices, and wholesale prices contribute to PPA prices,
Speaker 4: so there's a very strong link there for time being,
Speaker 4: as long as gas plays such a big role in Europe.
Speaker 2: Still to conclude, look, our congratulation to your first acquisition
Speaker 2: in the US. So Pisa Park is a quite a company.
Speaker 2: I can't pronounce his name, sorry, what is it? What
Speaker 2: is it doing and what are the impact for Pisa
Speaker 2: Park Group.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're very happy it's our first acquisition. It's a
Speaker 4: company called renew Afi. They're based in New York and
Speaker 4: they provide price assessments for batteries and PPAs, so same
Speaker 4: business as PECSA Park. They also run a very active
Speaker 4: marketplace where you can transact on tolls and PPAs and
Speaker 4: they cover so far air cut which was a perfect
Speaker 4: match for our PEXA Park plans and now together with
Speaker 4: renew OFFI we will be able to cover most of
Speaker 4: the US much quicker. That's basically our plan with the
Speaker 4: acquisition to be able to cover most of the US
Speaker 4: markets by end of the year.
Speaker 2: Well, that's really brilliant. You're very, very smart, Lucas. Great
Speaker 2: to have yonder show.
Speaker 1: I wish you all the best. I wish you all
Speaker 1: the best this year.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Laura, thank you shared.
Speaker 2: Well, y'all, it's good to have Luca once a year
Speaker 2: because the market is moving so fast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I suppose they reflective Laurent, which is a little
Speaker 1: bit like I took it out of it that the
Speaker 1: US market is going to be very strong, demand picking
Speaker 1: up except et cetera. But the Europe market a lot
Speaker 1: of uncertainly, which I'm surprised that actually, if.
Speaker 2: You don't build any new data centers in Europe or
Speaker 2: you don't true industrialize, there's no new comer for those PPAs.
Speaker 2: So right now we're just replacing, you know, some fixed
Speaker 2: contract with PPA on the back of probably getting a
Speaker 2: better price and of course ESG standards. We'll see how
Speaker 2: that PPA market is going to evolve, because on the
Speaker 2: other hand, governments are intervening more and more, so there's
Speaker 2: probably less room for the private market around those PPAs,
Speaker 2: which is bad on one hand, On the other, the
Speaker 2: fact that you get batteries coming in big times. That's
Speaker 2: something that has been purely managed by private actors, so
Speaker 2: that might give a boost to the PPA.
Speaker 1: Now, what we didn't start to talk about, but which
Speaker 1: is in the report, which was that the biggest player
Speaker 1: in the European market was Amazon. I looked at the thing.
Speaker 1: What I was quite taken back by was the names
Speaker 1: that are not there. So I didn't see all the
Speaker 1: other big tech names on that, which was a surprise
Speaker 1: because I'm thinking, my god, these guys need green power.
Speaker 1: They're building data centers, and then I understand they're also
Speaker 1: building more in the US. But what I mean, there's Amazon,
Speaker 1: that's Google, the Microsoft, But I mean, you've got so
Speaker 1: many big tech companies. I'm just thinking from European perspective,
Speaker 1: SAP wasn't I'm looking at Meta. I didn't see Tesla
Speaker 1: on the list, which is also a surprise to me.
Speaker 1: You know, anyway, just there were surprises. I would have thought.
Speaker 1: That's why I was a little bit taken back that
Speaker 1: the European market was not It doesn't really expect it
Speaker 1: to grow this year.
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, you're absolutely right, You've got the big
Speaker 2: three now the Amazon, Google and Microsoft. That's only half
Speaker 2: of the data center. So you have some independent players
Speaker 2: who are also in the cloud business, and I don't
Speaker 2: see their name, so that's kind of strange. Now, an
Speaker 2: interesting thing thing is you start seeing a big industrial
Speaker 2: like chemical Lion, Deel Basel sales guitar San Gobin. This
Speaker 2: is the proof that the industrials are starting to consider PPAs,
Speaker 2: which is good. And look, it's a very good edge
Speaker 2: because if you look at the prices on the market
Speaker 2: on the ex they just go up and down and
Speaker 2: up and down because of the price of gas, other issues,
Speaker 2: and the moment we have a cold winter, everybody go crazy.
Speaker 2: So it's a very good edge. And I think that
Speaker 2: with the sophistication the dutilities, which only represent now what
Speaker 2: fifteen percent of the volumes, they're going to come back
Speaker 2: and it's their job to assemble those different PPAs into
Speaker 2: some twenty four to seven pint product. So I'm not
Speaker 2: as pessimistic as you are.
Speaker 1: You're right, sorry that what you're also saying is that
Speaker 1: we said that the podcast really is that big guys
Speaker 1: are back. That's the big guys have the opportunity you
Speaker 1: need to have a balance sheet in this area, and
Speaker 1: and and so, yeah, it's not just kk r's creative platforms.
Speaker 1: You're right, it's the utilities coming in and doing stuff there.
Speaker 2: But that also means that the level of digital that
Speaker 2: they need to master is enormous because you know, all
Speaker 2: those markets are going now by the fifteen minutes or
Speaker 2: the five minutes, and you need to availtgoes who process
Speaker 2: this all the time. So you need a lot of
Speaker 2: big guys overy smart guys in order to honest those.
Speaker 1: Markets absolutely absolutely well. Exciting exciting times, yeah, exciting.
Speaker 2: So we thank Luka for coming on the show, always
Speaker 2: very insightful, congratulate him for the acquisition of his New
Speaker 2: York outpost, and we wish the best to pick a
Speaker 2: park for the coming years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, all right, my friend, good next week, looking
Speaker 1: forward to cheers. Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
Speaker 1: or the platform of your choice.