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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about him. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 3: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening.
Speaker 4: In nineteen forty four, Brooklyn newborn Michael J. Hardy is
Speaker 4: rejected by his mother so she can run with gangster
Speaker 4: Bugsy Siegel. Hardy's godfather, Shirley Rooke, quickly rose to the
Speaker 4: top of the criminal ranks as a queen of New
Speaker 4: York City crime. She laundered mob money, the city's largest
Speaker 4: book making operation, and handed payouts to dirty cops, politician
Speaker 4: and judges. To win his mother's love and respect, Hardy
Speaker 4: became a fearless gangster. Throughout his career as a criminal,
Speaker 4: he robbed banks and drug dealers alike, ran a finger
Speaker 4: of an international stoletn car ring, kidnapped drug lords, and
Speaker 4: even became a hired gun. At his lowest, he ended
Speaker 4: up doing time for his mother's counterfeiting operation in Mexico's
Speaker 4: most dangerous prison. Hardy's criminal code of conduct combines elements
Speaker 4: of tough Ukrainian Jew and warm Southern Baptist, whether dealing
Speaker 4: with family and friends or fellow inmates. During a combined
Speaker 4: twenty six years spent in prisons and jails. He maintained
Speaker 4: this characteristic Gregaria's strength throughout his astonishing life, which Hardy
Speaker 4: was shot eleven times, committed fourteen hits from the mob twice,
Speaker 4: wore wires for Rudy Giuliani to nab dirty cops, wrote
Speaker 4: a letter to JFK to get out of military prison,
Speaker 4: choked the Hillside, shared prison time with notorious criminals, and
Speaker 4: even spent ten years in Hollywood working as muscle for
Speaker 4: a B studio, where it was even cast in non
Speaker 4: speaking roles. The book they were featuring this evening is
Speaker 4: The Last Jewish Gangster The Early Years, with my special
Speaker 4: guest author David Larson. Welcome to the program, and thank
Speaker 4: you so much for this interview. David Larson.
Speaker 2: Good evening.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much David for joining me here. Talk
Speaker 4: about the Last Jewish Gangster The Early Years. Right away,
Speaker 4: let's get into how this extraordinary meeting came to be,
Speaker 4: your meeting with Michael J. Hardy in San Diego. Tell
Speaker 4: us when this was how old was Michael J. Hardy,
Speaker 4: How old were you? Tell us about the particulars of
Speaker 4: this extraordinary meeting.
Speaker 2: Well, Hardy was sixty nine at the time, in a wheelchair.
Speaker 2: He had lost half of both his speed to diabetes.
Speaker 2: Weaghed about three hundred and twenty five pounds. The person
Speaker 2: who introduced us, I didn't find out till month later
Speaker 2: was his therapist. His therapist said heard me read an
Speaker 2: opening paragraph for opening paragraph slam competition in town, contacted
Speaker 2: me through LinkedIn and made the introduction via email. So
Speaker 2: I never met his therapist till months later. I was
Speaker 2: put in touch with Hardy. He said his schedule was
Speaker 2: wide open. He was living in Section eight housing on
Speaker 2: Fumes in a little studio apartment of converted garage. And
Speaker 2: we met a little restaurant on ALCOHOLM Boulevard in San Diego,
Speaker 2: and he was quite something from the first moment I
Speaker 2: laid eyes on.
Speaker 4: So tell us more about this exchange. What exactly he
Speaker 4: thought you were there for and why you were there?
Speaker 2: Well. Nick Poleggi, who wrote the books and the screenplays
Speaker 2: for Goodfellas and Casino, had arranged for a Hollywood hangar
Speaker 2: honor by the name of Bobby Debrino to work with
Speaker 2: Michael Hardy to put together book deal a movie deal.
Speaker 2: Nick had arranged for Hardy back in nineteen ninety to
Speaker 2: sell a portion of his life story to Win of
Speaker 2: Us the Pictures, and they made a movie. Hardy got
Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty grand for his case. For his involvement,
Speaker 2: He's to be involved also in the promotion of the movie. However,
Speaker 2: just before it was released, he was arrested for murder.
Speaker 2: So Disney One of Us the Pictures just scrapped the
Speaker 2: launch and quietly released it to no fanfare. Patrick Swayzee
Speaker 2: Holly Berry start in the film. So Hardy was looking
Speaker 2: at Bobby Debrino, who he met two years before he
Speaker 2: met me, as being his next savior, and Dobrino was
Speaker 2: just not up to the task. He put together meetings,
Speaker 2: He even videotape party hadn't come up to Hollywood sent
Speaker 2: a car for him. A Hardy like that, Oh I'm
Speaker 2: important at all, and everything just fell apart. The guys
Speaker 2: followed through was non existent, so Hardy was left holding
Speaker 2: the empty bag. So when his therapist suggested he might
Speaker 2: have found her writer he had heard me read this
Speaker 2: opening paragraph, Hardy was just salivating sid Police. So that's
Speaker 2: how we got introduced.
Speaker 4: Anyway, So what did Hardy believe that you would bring
Speaker 4: to this project that no one else could? And tell
Speaker 4: us about the process of being able to convince him
Speaker 4: that you were truly the person to be able to
Speaker 4: do this story.
Speaker 2: Well as it works out timing wise, he was just
Speaker 2: desperate because this is his last chances. His health was failing.
Speaker 2: His wife was there bidding taken care of his all
Speaker 2: these little needs. She would exit the house for fifteen
Speaker 2: minutes to have a cigarette and that was her break
Speaker 2: away from him. So he was in a way, he
Speaker 2: was desperate and he had no other choices. But he
Speaker 2: liked that opening paragraph I wrote, and I said, well,
Speaker 2: let's just start meeting once a week and see how
Speaker 2: it goes, and I'll take copious notes for months. He
Speaker 2: just told me what he did. He bounced all around.
Speaker 2: He robbed this drug dealer, and he partnered with these guys.
Speaker 2: He robbed banks, and then he was in Hollywood doing
Speaker 2: this and met this actor and he went somewhere with
Speaker 2: Ben Gazzara, Stuart Whitman. He was dropping all these names,
Speaker 2: Chuck Connors, he partied with him a lot, and after
Speaker 2: a while I used the tenants to listen, accept and encourage.
Speaker 2: I never challenged. I just listened, accepted it, and encouraged.
Speaker 2: And sooner or later, instead of telling me what he did,
Speaker 2: he told me why he did it. And that was
Speaker 2: fascinating that as soon as he opened that door, and
Speaker 2: I realized the impact that his mother had his life,
Speaker 2: her rejection of him, and then how he spent the
Speaker 2: better portion of his life trying to prove to her
Speaker 2: he was worthy of her love.
Speaker 4: So you go to him every week for you say,
Speaker 4: two and a half hours or so for this process
Speaker 4: to be able to as you say, he eventually tells
Speaker 4: you the why. So obviously you have to go back
Speaker 4: to the very beginning and talk about who his mother
Speaker 4: was and the relationship that he had that he struggled
Speaker 4: with his entire life. As he did, he took you back,
Speaker 4: take us back, take the audience back to the beginning.
Speaker 2: Well, he goes back to his very first memory as
Speaker 2: a child, and it was of his grandmother and her
Speaker 2: smells and sense the abilta fish and talcum powder in
Speaker 2: his crib. Then sitting on his daddy Roy, his grandfather,
Speaker 2: his southern grandfather's lap and his grandfather tickling him, and
Speaker 2: the time they would spend together and holding his grandmother's hand,
Speaker 2: going to school, meeting kids, and the traditions the great
Speaker 2: grandfather Abraham would every Friday night and Saturday night or
Speaker 2: just huge family gatherleries and everybody, uncles and aunts, all
Speaker 2: brought a special dish, traditional Jewish dish, they went to synagogue.
Speaker 2: He was just steeped in a lot of that until
Speaker 2: his grandfather died. When he was eight, His great grandfather
Speaker 2: died and then just everything traditionally surrounding the Jewish faith
Speaker 2: fell apart, and he really clung to his grandfather, Daddy
Speaker 2: Roy at the time. But his mother would interject herself
Speaker 2: into his life. One time, she happened to come by
Speaker 2: her father's her father's house for breakfast and noticed Michael
Speaker 2: had some red marks on his neck and where did
Speaker 2: you get those? And Michael said, well, my teacher, you know,
Speaker 2: grabbed the back of my neck because I was out
Speaker 2: of line going to the fire drill, and these were
Speaker 2: welts on his neck like. And so she showed up
Speaker 2: that afternoon, threatened to kill the teacher, cut off her
Speaker 2: hands to the teacher never came back. To the school,
Speaker 2: and Michael was proud of that moment, but then he
Speaker 2: realized later on he was just like a possession. It
Speaker 2: could have been her car was scratched and she would
Speaker 2: have reacted the same.
Speaker 4: Tell us who his mother is, and we in an introduction.
Speaker 4: She ran with all these people. But how did it
Speaker 4: come that she the Shirley Rook, became not number one
Speaker 4: interested in these people, but became involved with these mobsters.
Speaker 2: No one in the family could quite understand how at
Speaker 2: fifteen years old she had bright red hair, just really stunning,
Speaker 2: would go to midnight Roses candy store and hang out
Speaker 2: with all the hitmen and the people that would drink there,
Speaker 2: and she would have them light her cigarettes and where
Speaker 2: her steam seemed stockings, and she was just attracted these guys.
Speaker 2: In nineteen forty three, when she was eighteen, Buggsy Siegel
Speaker 2: arranged for her to do a screen test in Hollywood,
Speaker 2: and she was that steeped and that involved, and she
Speaker 2: he flew her out to Hollywood. She screen tested and
Speaker 2: they told her that she was a nice talent at redhead,
Speaker 2: but they started rattling off. We got Lucille Ball, we
Speaker 2: got great Garson, Rita Hayward, you know, and I said,
Speaker 2: your talent, but we got a full stable under contract altogether.
Speaker 2: So she went south to San Diego to go spend
Speaker 2: some time with her aunt and lick her wounds. And
Speaker 2: that's where she met her first cousin, Roy. He looked
Speaker 2: like a cross between the actor Jim Davis from Dallas
Speaker 2: and Rory Calhoun, big tall, six one sixty two, dark,
Speaker 2: wavy hair, and they hit it off, and they hit
Speaker 2: it off too well. She got pregnant, so Hardy was
Speaker 2: born at two first cousins. That was a shame that
Speaker 2: his mother carried with her, and that's a shame he carried.
Speaker 2: So when she got back to Brooklyn, she just dumped
Speaker 2: Michael Hardy with her parents to raise so she could
Speaker 2: keep on running with a mob, and her involvement with
Speaker 2: Meyer Lansky kept on growing. After Bugsy was gunned down
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty seven, she took up with Joey Adonas
Speaker 2: and then started running dirty money down to Havana to
Speaker 2: launder from Mayor Lanski. During the fifties, they set her
Speaker 2: up with the largest bookmaking operation in New York City.
Speaker 2: She had dozens of apartment set up with telephone lines
Speaker 2: running in and out, big numbers racket, and she had
Speaker 2: a protection of the mom. Anytime the police came around,
Speaker 2: it was just taken care of. And she handled payouts
Speaker 2: to dirty judges, politicians, and cops. So there's a steady
Speaker 2: stream of cars that showed up in front of her
Speaker 2: apartment or brown spelt all the time. And she had
Speaker 2: a nice little money box in her buffet. As she
Speaker 2: would pull out, there'd be envelopes in there with someone's
Speaker 2: name on it, and she would just hand those. They'd
Speaker 2: get her peck on the cheek and shake her hand.
Speaker 2: The double partment would be on their way. And so
Speaker 2: Michael grew up seeing all that, he kept on coming
Speaker 2: around her, wanting to be near her, figure her out,
Speaker 2: and she'd keep on shoeing them off like he was
Speaker 2: a fly, just buzzing around. She didn't want anything to
Speaker 2: do with him.
Speaker 4: That feeling, that idea was reinforced because he had three sisters,
Speaker 4: and unlike his sisters, they weren't rejected by his mother.
Speaker 2: At least that's what he believed.
Speaker 4: That his mother was abandoning and rejecting him, and he
Speaker 4: didn't understand why. What about Michael's real father? And he
Speaker 4: also notices and realizes the way his mother treats not
Speaker 4: only her husbands, but also all men in her life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she she treated unless she could control her husband,
Speaker 2: her men, she treated them all like slaves. Budgie Siegel
Speaker 2: didn't allow it, so she was more attracted to him,
Speaker 2: but she would be. She married a cop at one point,
Speaker 2: which is just amazing that she would marry someone in
Speaker 2: law enforcement. But that was another way of getting additional
Speaker 2: protection for the rackets she was running. She really she
Speaker 2: had a history, from Michael's perspective, of just using her
Speaker 2: men anyway she could. One of the last husbands she
Speaker 2: had was a federally from Mexico that saved her from
Speaker 2: being raped in prison. She treated him just She made
Speaker 2: him sleep on the floor, she did dishes. She he
Speaker 2: worked at a Hojo's. You know, just get out of
Speaker 2: the house, keep yourself busy, you know. And he wanted
Speaker 2: a child so bad. He thought she was ten years
Speaker 2: younger than she was, so she went. She showed up
Speaker 2: one day. Michael was running a stolen car, a finger
Speaker 2: of a stolen car ring, driving cars out to the
Speaker 2: West Coast, and she was selling and they'd split the money.
Speaker 2: About twelve hundred dollars a car. She showed up one
Speaker 2: time with a baby. Where'd you get it? He said, well,
Speaker 2: I know you're pregnant. No. No, she she had bought
Speaker 2: the baby from someone in Mexico and she was going
Speaker 2: to get some assistance for it, and that was just
Speaker 2: another scam of hers and was going to keep her
Speaker 2: husband happy that she had a baby, and he ended
Speaker 2: he ended up going to Tijuana party and got in
Speaker 2: trouble and thrown in jail for five years, So it
Speaker 2: kind of took care of him. She quietly divorced him,
Speaker 2: and she couldn't get the paperwork she needed because the
Speaker 2: baby's birth certificate looked like it was obvious forgery, so
Speaker 2: she just gave the baby back to someone.
Speaker 4: While she is attaining this role and attaining this height
Speaker 4: of success within the organized crime and the people that
Speaker 4: she's connected to, Michael J. Hardy is struggling with obviously
Speaker 4: the rejection from his mother. He has this good influence
Speaker 4: in his life, you say about Daddy Roy and this
Speaker 4: family in North Carolina. So despite this, you know what
Speaker 4: he describes as this really shaping of his character due
Speaker 4: to the good influence of this family and this other
Speaker 4: life other than what his mother subjected him to. He
Speaker 4: still has a lot of anger. And you say this
Speaker 4: is part of the why tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that anger just a festered is probably the best
Speaker 2: way to describe it. He just didn't understand he had
Speaker 2: a father that was just basically a street hustler in
Speaker 2: San Diego that he's just met once when he was
Speaker 2: nineteen years old. He was flown out to California to
Speaker 2: go spend some time with him while they were getting
Speaker 2: the right judge to handle an assault case surrounding ice
Speaker 2: cream delivery. That's the story in himself. And then he
Speaker 2: saw what his father is like selling these getting these
Speaker 2: cheap little knockoff watches. They were supposed to be Rolexes
Speaker 2: or something something less. He picked him up for a
Speaker 2: dollar seventy five. He try and sell them in a
Speaker 2: bar somewhere, pretending he was a merchant marine on tough times,
Speaker 2: and he brought his son along to try and add
Speaker 2: to the plea a little bit. He just saw his
Speaker 2: father scamming people, and his father took him down to
Speaker 2: TJ to think he was going to get his son
Speaker 2: laid for the first time. You know, the boy hardy
Speaker 2: looked at his father, just like who are you? You know,
Speaker 2: even took him to Hollywood, he introduced some some people
Speaker 2: just trying to impress him, trying to be his father,
Speaker 2: but he's so far from it. Hardy, Hardy's the control
Speaker 2: for his life as far as a male influence. All
Speaker 2: stopped when he was twelve years old, when his grandfather
Speaker 2: died and his mother didn't even let him go to
Speaker 2: the funeral in North Carolina. He had to stay home
Speaker 2: and he tried to commit suicide, went into his aunt's
Speaker 2: medicine cabinet, took a bunch of pills, curl up in
Speaker 2: the ball in he bed. Just he woke up in
Speaker 2: a hospital with his mother standing there for rating him
Speaker 2: because he was so thoughtless. She had to drive all
Speaker 2: the way through the night back from North Carolina. Who
Speaker 2: does he think he is? So you can see how
Speaker 2: a kid would grow up feeling so alone and just
Speaker 2: joined it, not belonging to anything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're right that there's an altercation at some point
Speaker 4: and some disappointment when his mother is late to pick
Speaker 4: him up, and so he complains, He really complained, He's
Speaker 4: really distraught, and she says, grow up, be a man,
Speaker 4: and it sounds like that's the last thing you want
Speaker 4: to say to this guy, at this young boy, at
Speaker 4: this time, and then you chronicle all this delinquency, and
Speaker 4: I mean at a early age, he's doing things that
Speaker 4: much older people would be doing, and he realizes the
Speaker 4: power of the gun, as you're right, when.
Speaker 2: He was to avoid some law law problems with the law.
Speaker 2: His uncle moves down to Florida and Hardy goes along
Speaker 2: with him, and he gets gets a rifle to begin
Speaker 2: with and eventually trades it in for a Roscoe, a revolver,
Speaker 2: and he practices it out in the Everglades, shooting pal
Speaker 2: meadow bugs, just becoming very accurate, very comfortable with the
Speaker 2: sound of the pop and the and the recoil of
Speaker 2: a gun. And when he goes back to Brooklyn, he
Speaker 2: takes that gun with him and it's a year later
Speaker 2: and he's bigger and he's filling out jackets, bigger, better,
Speaker 2: and he forms a gang at his school and the
Speaker 2: first time he uses a gun on another person is
Speaker 2: when there's a big gang fight after school against a
Speaker 2: group of kids called the Corsair Lords. He he fires
Speaker 2: one shot in the air and then fire shots in
Speaker 2: their legs, when this crowd of nearly one hundred are
Speaker 2: coming at him and his buddies that were about twelve.
Speaker 2: And after that, when they all meet at the local
Speaker 2: pizza place, that's when he realized, looks around the table,
Speaker 2: he's gone the way of the gun. Now he can't
Speaker 2: hang around these boys anymore.
Speaker 4: What happens with his mother and with his uncle Morty
Speaker 4: in almost all of these court proceedings despite what he
Speaker 4: the serious trouble he gets in for quite a while.
Speaker 4: What happens in these court proceedings and why.
Speaker 2: Well, if it's activity up in the New York area,
Speaker 2: and there's always a judge and a lawyer that his
Speaker 2: mother or uncle Morty arrange and it quietly gets quashed.
Speaker 2: If it down in Florida, her reach doesn't extend down there.
Speaker 2: So he's got to do his first time. He spends
Speaker 2: I believe, three weeks in a home where he's got
Speaker 2: to follow the rules. He's never supposed to come back
Speaker 2: to Florida again. That's part of the deal he makes
Speaker 2: with a judge. And she intercedes when she has to,
Speaker 2: and she's really upset that she's being bothered by the activity,
Speaker 2: but she is a legal guardian, so she has called
Speaker 2: upon every once in a while to dip her toes
Speaker 2: into those unwonted waters of taking care of her son.
Speaker 4: Now, tell us fast forward a little bit to how
Speaker 4: he progresses. While his mother rises in the ranks and
Speaker 4: does well and cements her role with organized crime. He
Speaker 4: is making a name for himself and is getting noticed
Speaker 4: by some people. What kind of crimes is he getting
Speaker 4: noticed for? And what kind of behavior is he getting
Speaker 4: notsed for and noticed by who?
Speaker 2: Well, some of the activity he gets involved in just
Speaker 2: because he's so brash and he's looking for ways to
Speaker 2: make scores. He runs into the Gotti brothers at one point,
Speaker 2: and this is before John Gotti becomes John Gotti. John
Speaker 2: and his brothers Richie and I'm trying to remember the name, Jean,
Speaker 2: Richie and Jean Gotti. They rip off a seaview bowling
Speaker 2: out a couple thousand dollars, big score. They're out party
Speaker 2: and Gene and Richie come and find them, and they
Speaker 2: get an altercation and they beat the living crap out
Speaker 2: of the John Gott He finds out about it afterwards,
Speaker 2: and they come hunting for him, and Hardy gets shot
Speaker 2: twice by them. Once in the wrist as he goes
Speaker 2: to park his car the night in through his front windshield,
Speaker 2: and then once the next day and a big shootout
Speaker 2: where a bullet goes through a door of a car
Speaker 2: and hits in the stomach. Each time he goes and
Speaker 2: gets gay nursed to mend him up. He even raised
Speaker 2: his shirt up when I was interviewing him to show
Speaker 2: that the scar that he the shot that he took,
Speaker 2: and his belly was still kind of weeping lead from
Speaker 2: a shot that he took in the early sixties. You know,
Speaker 2: he tangled with some pretty seasoned people within the mob
Speaker 2: as well, but he was on the outskirts. He didn't
Speaker 2: he never really worked for the mob. He did hits
Speaker 2: for them. It was his contract work. Again. He was
Speaker 2: just got paid one thousand dollars apiece to go perform hits.
Speaker 2: And for him, it was hoping that the news would
Speaker 2: get back to his mother and she'd be proud of them.
Speaker 4: He is a very different individual and sees the world
Speaker 4: entering into war. He shakes hands with John F. Kennedy
Speaker 4: when he passes through town. He ends up enlisting in
Speaker 4: the army. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: He tried to list early in the year when he
Speaker 2: was not quite seventeen, and he had a fake birth certificate,
Speaker 2: and his mother came in with them, and she screwed
Speaker 2: up the interview. I mean, she couldn't even lie correctly,
Speaker 2: and that's what pissed him off, because her whole life
Speaker 2: is a lie. But she messed up the first interview
Speaker 2: in January, I believe it was he just had a
Speaker 2: rage in him and he figured, well, joined the military,
Speaker 2: I'll get to shoot guns, I'll get to do some
Speaker 2: channel it somewhere. Channel that rage that got stepped on.
Speaker 2: But then in August of that year, at the Berlin War,
Speaker 2: all went up and there was all this news around
Speaker 2: at the mill Basin racket club, where his mother had
Speaker 2: a membership, and everybody was talking about, oh my god,
Speaker 2: another war. It's going to be Germans or the Russians,
Speaker 2: and to him as Commis or Nazis, and he didn't
Speaker 2: care which it was. So he sent for his birth
Speaker 2: certificate because he was born in Cornatto Hospital in San Diego,
Speaker 2: and it came back and he was over seventeen and
Speaker 2: a half and he joined up and the only time
Speaker 2: his mother ever cooked him a meal was the night
Speaker 2: before he left, and she made a pot rust and
Speaker 2: he went to the service ready to do wage war
Speaker 2: against against one of those opponents. He didn't care. And
Speaker 2: part way through oh must have been six stapes through
Speaker 2: basic training, he realized Kennedy was a pussy and they
Speaker 2: weren't going to go to war, that Berlin Wall was
Speaker 2: going up and nobody was doing anything. So he decided
Speaker 2: he'd wage war against the army. They went a wall
Speaker 2: and he was final captured and court martialed and thrown
Speaker 2: in the brig for six months. When he find out
Speaker 2: found out that he was after he did it six months,
Speaker 2: he was going to go back into basic training again.
Speaker 2: He took his eighth grade ed education and wrote a
Speaker 2: letter to the Commander in chief of JFK at the time,
Speaker 2: and he pulled a Jew card and I'm being persecuted
Speaker 2: as Jew, and to some extent he was. But ten
Speaker 2: days later a colonel shows up. You want to get out?
Speaker 2: Party goes yep. They let him out, but that shame
Speaker 2: followed him for most of his life. He went and
Speaker 2: got a tattoo of a big eagle on his left
Speaker 2: forearm because you know a ranger, well, he was never
Speaker 2: a ranger. He didn't even finish basic training, but he
Speaker 2: just felps a longing to be a part of something
Speaker 2: and just couldn't pull it together.
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Speaker 4: slash murder. Now, David, we were speaking about what the
Speaker 4: military was going to do, what Michael J. Hardy thought
Speaker 4: the military would do for him, but as you say,
Speaker 4: it produced nothing but shame and disappointment. What happens after
Speaker 4: he's still looking for to belong to something and to
Speaker 4: someone what happens in his life.
Speaker 2: Well, he starts getting involved in he meets a guy
Speaker 2: by the name of Bobby Debrino, buddy his and they
Speaker 2: start stealing car parks that they become like an indie
Speaker 2: pit crew. They jack a car up, they take its tires,
Speaker 2: they'll take the alternator and the battery and sometimes the radio,
Speaker 2: and they'll just do this in minutes. Gotten to the point.
Speaker 2: Then they start stealing cars, which is the next step
Speaker 2: in that evolution, and then his crimes just keep on escalating.
Speaker 2: He's smart enough to not get caught, and they case
Speaker 2: things out in cars and stuff, and he meets a
Speaker 2: girl along the way, gets her pregnant again. He's feeling
Speaker 2: his way through everything, not quite sure what he's getting into.
Speaker 2: He ignores the girl that he got pregnant. He meets
Speaker 2: another one and he ends up marrying her. For their honeymoon,
Speaker 2: they go down drive down to Washington, d C. He
Speaker 2: sets up a meeting at the Pentagon because he's going
Speaker 2: to try and get rid of his dishonorable discharge. Right,
Speaker 2: and what a beautiful honey, honey. Let's go to DC
Speaker 2: and oh, by the way, I want to hang out
Speaker 2: at the Pentagon. So he gets this meeting at the
Speaker 2: Pentagon and they basically laugh them out of the room.
Speaker 2: What are you doing you You went a wall, you
Speaker 2: disobeyed orders, you wrote a letter, you broke the Chaine
Speaker 2: in command letter, wrote a letter to the president. And
Speaker 2: he was just devastated. Hung around there a little bit more.
Speaker 2: On his drive back home, his car broke down just
Speaker 2: as he just as he pulled into Brooklyn. He swapped
Speaker 2: it out for another car right away, picked up some groceries,
Speaker 2: and just walking up to his apartment, just things were
Speaker 2: where he left them. You know, it's orange on the sink,
Speaker 2: will Philly curtains. He was assessing his life. He was
Speaker 2: stealing car parts. He was working with his uncle who
Speaker 2: owned the same uncle that owned a little pet store,
Speaker 2: and they'd resell a monkey because people couldn't handle the
Speaker 2: monkey go crazy in their homes, so they kept on
Speaker 2: giving the monkey back and kept only selling it. He's
Speaker 2: just going, I got to do something different. This is
Speaker 2: just my life's not going anywhere. And he starts coming
Speaker 2: out of that, he starts escalating his life at grime.
Speaker 4: He not only is participating in robberies, these are violent robberies.
Speaker 4: So tell us about the banks. And even more worrisome
Speaker 4: is the drug dealers that these guys are robbing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he liked the idea of dealing with drug leaders,
Speaker 2: robbing drug dealers because they weren't going to complain to anyone, right,
Speaker 2: They're going to go to the cops. He gets a
Speaker 2: hold of Summon's black book. Dealer he was upstate a
Speaker 2: little bit in New York. He went up there for
Speaker 2: a weekend and he took some his black book. He
Speaker 2: started calling up some of these drug dealers and set
Speaker 2: up meetings. He started taking them down and it was
Speaker 2: just so easy. Then he went to a police supply
Speaker 2: store and he got some fake badges and started pretending
Speaker 2: he was undercover cops and these he'd show up and
Speaker 2: these drug dealers going way to mac pay for protection.
Speaker 2: He'd tie them up anyway, take all their money, take
Speaker 2: all their drugs. He was selling a lot of those
Speaker 2: drugs to the manager of Antony and the Imperials, just
Speaker 2: as a way of getting rid of some of the contraband. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the banks. He made a couple of guys down from
Speaker 2: Boston that had robbed some banks. When he was out clubbing.
Speaker 2: He met them and these guys were talking about needing
Speaker 2: an extra man a driver. So he knew Brooklyn well enough,
Speaker 2: so he set it up. He'd steal a car, he
Speaker 2: case out, they kise out the bank ahead of time.
Speaker 2: He knew the routes, exit routes and everything real well.
Speaker 2: A certain amount of time they'd wait out in the car,
Speaker 2: drop these guys off, they'd come running back out. They'd
Speaker 2: have the money to go, split it up four ways.
Speaker 2: He decided, you know, it's like it was like the
Speaker 2: kid on the playground. Jeez, guys, can I play too?
Speaker 2: And he said, what's the take for me to get
Speaker 2: in the game. Get a big gun? So he mail
Speaker 2: ordered for a machine gun. And they wouldn't send them
Speaker 2: to sell you the whole machine gun, and they'd send
Speaker 2: you a sell you a commemorative Thompson machine gun, and
Speaker 2: they'd have a fake barrel was fill full of cement,
Speaker 2: but the same company would sell you a separate barrel
Speaker 2: that worked. So he put one together, filled it full
Speaker 2: of you know, the cartridge full of bullets, and he
Speaker 2: went down on his mother's basement and he decided to
Speaker 2: let loose a couple of bursts. That's when he forgot
Speaker 2: bullets ricochet. He was lucky he didn't get shot. But
Speaker 2: then he was in the game, someone else driving the car.
Speaker 2: He got to go in the bank, he got to
Speaker 2: yell everybody down, and he just loved that power. The
Speaker 2: biggest score they had was a little over thirty grand
Speaker 2: and for the you know, for the early sixties, that's
Speaker 2: that's big money.
Speaker 4: What about his mother and what about his What was
Speaker 4: being heard by his mother about her son's exploits.
Speaker 2: He didn't hear too much back. He kept on wanting
Speaker 2: to hear it. Her mother's boyfriend knew that he was
Speaker 2: involved her. This boyfriend knew he's getting involved in some
Speaker 2: shady stuff, told him to be careful, gave him the
Speaker 2: tip to set aside twenty percent of anything you make,
Speaker 2: just set aside for legal reasons. Get a good lawyer,
Speaker 2: and he just kind of blew it off. His mother
Speaker 2: just didn't talk to him about those things. As as
Speaker 2: a sixteen year old kid, he came to her and
Speaker 2: wanted this is in nineteen sixty, asked her if he
Speaker 2: could do collections for her numbers racket, and she just
Speaker 2: looked at a sculp, what you what are you going
Speaker 2: to do? So well? Collect some money? I can hurt people. No, no, Michael,
Speaker 2: no no, And she kept on rebuffing him. Its just
Speaker 2: everything that he ever wanted to get recognition for with her,
Speaker 2: she just never came to it.
Speaker 4: He eventually the law catches up with him, and his
Speaker 4: good luck catches up with them, and his mother can't
Speaker 4: protect him. He does do some time, doesn't he?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, his first big time as is down in
Speaker 2: New Jersey. Her influence doesn't extend across the border too well.
Speaker 2: He ends up doing two and a half times at
Speaker 2: the Bordentown Reformatory. It's an odd fact. In nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: five or so, he's arrested on a gun charge in
Speaker 2: New York and had the court clerk properly read his
Speaker 2: background and figured out how old he was at the time.
Speaker 2: The Kriller plants at the arrest for armed robbery of
Speaker 2: the Greenville Bar in New Jersey and saw he went
Speaker 2: to Bordentown Reformatory, assumed that it was he had to
Speaker 2: be under eighteen when he committed crime. Hardy was nineteen,
Speaker 2: and had he read it correctly, Hardy would have been three.
Speaker 2: Struck in New York had been gone away for a long, long,
Speaker 2: long time, so he just uh. He spent two and
Speaker 2: a half years at the Bordentown Reformatory. He took that
Speaker 2: as they allowed conjugal visits. His wife got pregnant, he
Speaker 2: had a son was born to him. When he was
Speaker 2: in performatory, it was a working farm. He got to
Speaker 2: do everything, cows, chickens the last thing when of the
Speaker 2: last things he did was grades detail. A lot of
Speaker 2: the prisoners in there had died and they would bury them.
Speaker 2: And then five years later his job was to dig
Speaker 2: him up and they put him in a grinder and
Speaker 2: used to defer life the fields. After that. He didn't
Speaker 2: need any vegetables there, but he got his ged while
Speaker 2: he was in prison there. He really had these hopes.
Speaker 2: There were times where he reset his life and this
Speaker 2: is one of them too. In his first time really
Speaker 2: doing serious time two and a half years of Boardtown,
Speaker 2: New Jersey, and he got out, got his ged, came back.
Speaker 2: It was his young son, his wife if they went
Speaker 2: to live with the mother for a while and she
Speaker 2: just nagged him to death to the point where he
Speaker 2: just had to leave. She kicked him out.
Speaker 4: So how does his career develop? You talk about this
Speaker 4: friend Zzy. He gets the attention of this person in
Speaker 4: organized crime and he's working on behalf of the Pacifical family.
Speaker 4: I believe maybe mispronouncing that name tell us about his
Speaker 4: assent in organized crime and how it gets all derailed,
Speaker 4: and also what happens with his mother's career.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he got to the point where he was she's
Speaker 5: robbing drug dealers, gasoline stations, drops money drops that were
Speaker 5: used by the mob.
Speaker 2: And when he got in the shootouts with Gotti, that's
Speaker 2: when they got called in for a sit down with
Speaker 2: Sunny Francesse. That was the second time they got called.
Speaker 2: The first time was that the US Sunny's name in
Speaker 2: a nightclub where they got in a big fight and
Speaker 2: they could called in. Sonny was like, well, it was
Speaker 2: nice to use my name, but don't now. The second
Speaker 2: time was they had a big shootout with the Gottis
Speaker 2: and Hardy got shot twice, and then Sonny had one
Speaker 2: of those meetings, well forget about it type of thing.
Speaker 2: You know, you got shot, forget about it, you got
Speaker 2: your face beat in, forget about it. You know, I
Speaker 2: don't I don't need this right now. They were worried
Speaker 2: about the Prafaccis. They were they were worried about a
Speaker 2: bunch of guys fighting each other. Stop it, guy, stop it.
Speaker 2: So they got He get his hands slapped a little
Speaker 2: bit that time, and his buddy that he was doing
Speaker 2: jobs with just decided it was too much. He said,
Speaker 2: you know his real this is a real tight friend
Speaker 2: that he robbed all kinds of people. He illicit crap gates.
Speaker 2: He come in and bust everybody. Everyone dropped their drawers,
Speaker 2: give them all their money, take off. Do things like that.
Speaker 2: They were pretty dangerous, and Bobby Dobrinos just said, can't
Speaker 2: do it, and he ends up being a cop. Debrino does,
Speaker 2: and Hardy almost feels like he's been betrayed. It never
Speaker 2: really deals with that guy again.
Speaker 4: Let's just says an opportunity to stop for these messages.
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Speaker 4: Plus you say, meanwhile, you say, Debrino becomes a police officer.
Speaker 4: So the disillusioned Michael J. Hardy, how does he end up?
Speaker 4: Because all through this book, what we haven't mentioned is
Speaker 4: is an attorney, a mob attorney named Jimmy Blatt, and
Speaker 4: he is also interviewing Michael J. Hardy. Tell us about
Speaker 4: how we get to Jimmy Blatt? Who is Jimmy Blatt?
Speaker 4: And the predicament that Michael J. Hardy is in.
Speaker 2: Well, the book starts in nineteen ninety when Hardy's being
Speaker 2: arrested up in La Jolla, California for murdering his wife
Speaker 2: five years before, and he's got to find a lawyer.
Speaker 2: He goes through Robert Shapiro, goes through a couple of big, big,
Speaker 2: big names, and here's from somebody that Jimmy Blatt is
Speaker 2: supposed to be pretty good, and he ends up landing
Speaker 2: Jimmy Blatt, who has never worked a murder case before,
Speaker 2: but he had worked in the court system, had been
Speaker 2: on the DA side, And Jimmy says, well, if I'm
Speaker 2: going to you know, Marcia Clark is on the DA
Speaker 2: team coming after Hardy, And Jimmy says, well, if I'm
Speaker 2: going to know who I'm defending, who I'm sitting next
Speaker 2: to in court, You're gonna have to tell me more.
Speaker 2: You're going to tell me everything about your background. So
Speaker 2: Hardy in nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety one starts telling
Speaker 2: Jimmy his story. Every five chapters. You break away and
Speaker 2: we break away, and Jimmy and Michael are are going
Speaker 2: over some kind of strategy or Michael's pissed off because
Speaker 2: Jimmy's he thinks Jimmy is cutting deals behind his back.
Speaker 2: Something something's going on. He's not paying the right attention.
Speaker 2: Jimmy's getting excited about hearing hearing a story about Sammy
Speaker 2: de Bolgravano, and Hardy's thinking, what about me? You know,
Speaker 2: he's just got got that kind of ego. But Jimmy's
Speaker 2: very patient, works and works through this whole thing with him.
Speaker 2: It takes them over a year, just about a year
Speaker 2: before he's able. Jamie kept on telling you this. The
Speaker 2: longer we wait, the softer they become, they become less interested.
Speaker 2: This another case takes precedence. We just delay, We just delay,
Speaker 2: We just slow him down. And Harty's going nuts. He's
Speaker 2: being kept in Wayside Supermax from Van Eyes, and he
Speaker 2: asked to go to La County to the Millionaire's row
Speaker 2: and because they have better food. He's been there couple
Speaker 2: of times before, and Jimmy didn't even know about that.
Speaker 2: Tell me how you got there a couple of times before,
Speaker 2: and Hardy explained some of those instances. And Hardy convinces
Speaker 2: him to increase his bail so that it will allow
Speaker 2: him to go to millionaires grow in La County. There's
Speaker 2: better food, law library, all that stuff going on. So
Speaker 2: he's just trying to do anything because he's just so
Speaker 2: bored just sitting around doing nothing, and that time is
Speaker 2: eating away at him. His paranoia, you know, thinking that
Speaker 2: something worse is going to come out, when Jimmy knows
Speaker 2: just the opposite. The longer it takes, the less interested
Speaker 2: we are in the case, something else pops up that
Speaker 2: takes over their attention.
Speaker 4: But Jimmy is saying he's coming to Michael and saying, listen,
Speaker 4: we do have some problems because through discovery, the prosecution,
Speaker 4: this Marcia Clark is very aggressive and wants the death penalty,
Speaker 4: and also that you're fire record is going to be very,
Speaker 4: very influential and we're going to try to suppress it,
Speaker 4: but we can't. So Michael is twisting in the wind,
Speaker 4: even though Jimmy Blad is trying to reassure him as
Speaker 4: much as he can, but he can't make guarantees, and
Speaker 4: Michael's asking for guarantees. In that storytelling, we get to
Speaker 4: the story about his mother and Michael in Mexico.
Speaker 2: Michael his mother Shirley, who Michael always called mother and
Speaker 2: everyone else called Queenie, which is really fascinating. She managed
Speaker 2: to take a trip to New York picked up four
Speaker 2: thousand dollars of bad might counterfeit money, so it was
Speaker 2: really thick. He could almost feel it, but it looked great,
Speaker 2: but it was real thick, and ten dollar bills and
Speaker 2: ten dollar bills, and they tried passing some off at McDonald's,
Speaker 2: but you know, he could only go so fast, so far,
Speaker 2: so far, so fast, and she ended up suggesting they
Speaker 2: go down to Tijuana. Those Mexicans won't know what's good
Speaker 2: us money. So they go down to their racetrack, Agua Caliente,
Speaker 2: and they're just there. Go buy a one dollar ticket,
Speaker 2: get nine dollars change, eight dollars change, and doing it well.
Speaker 2: They hit a trifecta thirteen thousand dollars and everybody's jumping
Speaker 2: up and down, feeling great about it. And he goes
Speaker 2: to collect it and there's a bunch of federal allies
Speaker 2: around him that arrest him. Well, he doesn't say anything,
Speaker 2: but mother, his mother gets all anxious because where's the money,
Speaker 2: So she sends other people up. They are a group
Speaker 2: of five of them that went on the strip, and
Speaker 2: they get arrested. They get nabbed for passing phoning money,
Speaker 2: and they turn around and point down to the crowd.
Speaker 2: There's other three people surely and the other two and
Speaker 2: they arrest them all and they keep them in a
Speaker 2: Tijuana jail for sixteen days. And during that time, mother
Speaker 2: just keeps working on hardy, working on it. Please, I
Speaker 2: can't do the time. I don't know the language helped me.
Speaker 2: Help me? You know you do this you all the time.
Speaker 2: I'll send you money. I'll take care in so party, party,
Speaker 2: finally agrees, and the first book ends with him him
Speaker 2: they're opening the doors. They drive across a dusty road
Speaker 2: the middle of the day from the Tijuana jail to
Speaker 2: La Mesa to La Mesa del Diablo, the prison in
Speaker 2: the words most dangerous prison, and they open up the
Speaker 2: doors and he jumps out and so starts in incredible.
Speaker 2: He's set to do twelve years. There. Secret services come
Speaker 2: down because they're part of the Treasury Department and they say, hey,
Speaker 2: we want to piece this guy because Hardy confessed it
Speaker 2: was his money, and they said, when he gets out,
Speaker 2: let us know where. If he dies, let us know
Speaker 2: because we'll be waiting for him. That's just one of
Speaker 2: the law enforcement agencies is waiting for him. And from there,
Speaker 2: Harty he's got to figure out how to survive in
Speaker 2: a Mexican prison where check this out. This about us
Speaker 2: strange is. You can see Tuesdays, Tuesday nights were for
Speaker 2: girlfriends to visit the prison. Right Thursday nights were for wives,
Speaker 2: and Sundays they would open the gates to the prison,
Speaker 2: let whole throngs of people come in with fruit carts
Speaker 2: and taco trucks and they played baseball in the big yard.
Speaker 2: There were eight hundred and twenty five prisoners there. Whole
Speaker 2: families lived in the prison, and it was just you
Speaker 2: could have a gun or a knife, but the rules
Speaker 2: were you couldn't use them on a guard to escape,
Speaker 2: but you could use them for self protection. Wow. So
Speaker 2: this place was just like the wild West, but with
Speaker 2: a set of rules. That and a month or two
Speaker 2: into his stay. Now this is in the second book,
Speaker 2: a gay drug lord that cade competitor in half. It
Speaker 2: was his whole family to bring him in. This guy
Speaker 2: starts doing all kinds of building, building himself a great
Speaker 2: big plaza suite, all these other little part around there
Speaker 2: instead of the hovels that they had before. And eventually
Speaker 2: Hardy goes to work for him as his gringo pistolero,
Speaker 2: selling drugs to the twenty five Americans that are in
Speaker 2: there and doing collections for him, and he's observing. They
Speaker 2: have restaurants. This also most dangerous, but it was the
Speaker 2: most entrepreneur prison. They had restaurants in there, a jewelry store.
Speaker 2: You could go set up a business there as long
Speaker 2: as you gave kickbacks to the commandante. There was an
Speaker 2: ex NFL player that Hardy became real good friends with
Speaker 2: that was always planning prison escapes. There was Ann Michael's
Speaker 2: mother through all this, never showed up, never sent money.
Speaker 4: Let's get to how he ends up being arrested for
Speaker 4: his wife's murder and the relationship and the role his
Speaker 4: son Robert had in the entire affair.
Speaker 2: Robert, speaking of which got out of prison about a
Speaker 2: year ago. He was the first prisoner in La County
Speaker 2: to be three struck. His specialty was armed robberies, home robberies, burglaries.
Speaker 2: Was Robert was in prison and well. Harty's mother died
Speaker 2: in July fourth, nineteen ninety Four months later, Robert was
Speaker 2: in the visitors room at Corcoran State Prison. Caught the
Speaker 2: eye of a pretty girl, started chatting a little bit,
Speaker 2: and he decided he wanted to get our prisoner. She
Speaker 2: contacted the authorities. They set up an interview. He drew
Speaker 2: them a map of where Hardy's wife was buried. Now
Speaker 2: this is not mother, this is not Robert's mother. But
Speaker 2: five years before it was Thanksgiving, Hardy's wife came out
Speaker 2: at him with the thirty eight fired A couple of
Speaker 2: times he shoved her. She cracked her head on a sink.
Speaker 2: They went to bed. Later on that night she calmed down.
Speaker 2: He woke up in the morning she was dead next
Speaker 2: to him. So the son Hardy, rapped her in a rug,
Speaker 2: put in a huge toolbox, and his son eventually they
Speaker 2: or so later helped him burier in the backyard. So
Speaker 2: the sun draws the authority is a map where the
Speaker 2: body's buried. The authorities look at each other and say, well,
Speaker 2: thank you very much, but we aren't going to give
Speaker 2: you an extra time off. You know, you're aiding, embedding
Speaker 2: in a murder, you know, disposing the body. I mean,
Speaker 2: got all these all these charges there, just be thankful
Speaker 2: we don't charge you with anything else. So that they have,
Speaker 2: they got worn out for Harty's arrest, and that's when
Speaker 2: they that's when they collect him in Laya and then
Speaker 2: they take them up to the Vista jail and then
Speaker 2: some detectives from Van i Ice managed to come down
Speaker 2: and pick them up and take them up to La
Speaker 2: So starts the long process of sentencing, eventual sentencing for murder.
Speaker 2: You say something, are you right?
Speaker 4: And it seems profound that he said that his son
Speaker 4: Robert would have never ratted him out if surely was
Speaker 4: still alive.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Really believed he really believed that that they
Speaker 2: influenced his mother had was was so strong that that
Speaker 2: there's no way the you know, her grandson would have
Speaker 2: turned party in. He looked hardy, actually looked at it,
Speaker 2: even from the grave. She reaches out and she grabs
Speaker 2: me and she pulls me down. You know, he did
Speaker 2: have a chance in May of nineteen ninety before she
Speaker 2: died to have a little come to Jesus with him
Speaker 2: to find out why she just never understood she was
Speaker 2: just just used him or just cast him aside, and
Speaker 2: she just admitted finally she didn't know what to do
Speaker 2: with him. He was a mistake baby, just just she was.
Speaker 2: She was scared, you know, she you know, it didn't
Speaker 2: that didn't assuay too much, but Lisa gave him an answer.
Speaker 4: I want to thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 4: and talking about The Last Jewish Gangster the Early Years.
Speaker 4: For that might want to take a look at this work.
Speaker 4: Is there a website for this book, David.
Speaker 2: Yes, go to the Last Jewish Gangster dot com.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much, David Larson, The Last Jewish Gangster
Speaker 4: the Early Years, thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 2: And you have a great evening. Thank you so much, Ron, goodnight,
Speaker 2: good night.