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Chum chumbucasino dot com. 20 00:00:57.439 --> 00:00:59.679 Nover necessary word by long eighty plus terors the conditions 21 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:00.600 of plus everytails. 22 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.359 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 23 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:14.480 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 24 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:21.840 written about him. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 25 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:25.560 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:29.840 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 27 00:01:29.879 --> 00:01:33.719 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 28 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:42.760 Good Evening. 29 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:47.200 In nineteen forty four, Brooklyn newborn Michael J. Hardy is 30 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.079 rejected by his mother so she can run with gangster 31 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:54.599 Bugsy Siegel. Hardy's godfather, Shirley Rooke, quickly rose to the 32 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:56.959 top of the criminal ranks as a queen of New 33 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.959 York City crime. She laundered mob money, the city's largest 34 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:05.120 book making operation, and handed payouts to dirty cops, politician 35 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.080 and judges. To win his mother's love and respect, Hardy 36 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:12.759 became a fearless gangster. Throughout his career as a criminal, 37 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:15.879 he robbed banks and drug dealers alike, ran a finger 38 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:20.080 of an international stoletn car ring, kidnapped drug lords, and 39 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:23.360 even became a hired gun. At his lowest, he ended 40 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:26.840 up doing time for his mother's counterfeiting operation in Mexico's 41 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:31.039 most dangerous prison. Hardy's criminal code of conduct combines elements 42 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:35.199 of tough Ukrainian Jew and warm Southern Baptist, whether dealing 43 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:38.240 with family and friends or fellow inmates. During a combined 44 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.960 twenty six years spent in prisons and jails. He maintained 45 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:46.840 this characteristic Gregaria's strength throughout his astonishing life, which Hardy 46 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:51.560 was shot eleven times, committed fourteen hits from the mob twice, 47 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.560 wore wires for Rudy Giuliani to nab dirty cops, wrote 48 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:58.280 a letter to JFK to get out of military prison, 49 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:03.439 choked the Hillside, shared prison time with notorious criminals, and 50 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:06.520 even spent ten years in Hollywood working as muscle for 51 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.360 a B studio, where it was even cast in non 52 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.319 speaking roles. The book they were featuring this evening is 53 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:16.520 The Last Jewish Gangster The Early Years, with my special 54 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:19.960 guest author David Larson. Welcome to the program, and thank 55 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:22.280 you so much for this interview. David Larson. 56 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:23.199 Good evening. 57 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:26.199 Thank you so much David for joining me here. Talk 58 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:29.840 about the Last Jewish Gangster The Early Years. Right away, 59 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:35.039 let's get into how this extraordinary meeting came to be, 60 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.479 your meeting with Michael J. Hardy in San Diego. Tell 61 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:42.039 us when this was how old was Michael J. Hardy, 62 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:44.840 How old were you? Tell us about the particulars of 63 00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:46.400 this extraordinary meeting. 64 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:50.039 Well, Hardy was sixty nine at the time, in a wheelchair. 65 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.840 He had lost half of both his speed to diabetes. 66 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:57.400 Weaghed about three hundred and twenty five pounds. The person 67 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.439 who introduced us, I didn't find out till month later 68 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:04.439 was his therapist. His therapist said heard me read an 69 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:09.719 opening paragraph for opening paragraph slam competition in town, contacted 70 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:13.759 me through LinkedIn and made the introduction via email. So 71 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:16.839 I never met his therapist till months later. I was 72 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.279 put in touch with Hardy. He said his schedule was 73 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.920 wide open. He was living in Section eight housing on 74 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:28.560 Fumes in a little studio apartment of converted garage. And 75 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:33.360 we met a little restaurant on ALCOHOLM Boulevard in San Diego, 76 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:36.680 and he was quite something from the first moment I 77 00:04:36.800 --> 00:04:37.360 laid eyes on. 78 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:41.959 So tell us more about this exchange. What exactly he 79 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:45.000 thought you were there for and why you were there? 80 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:49.279 Well. Nick Poleggi, who wrote the books and the screenplays 81 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:55.480 for Goodfellas and Casino, had arranged for a Hollywood hangar 82 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:58.040 honor by the name of Bobby Debrino to work with 83 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:00.839 Michael Hardy to put together book deal a movie deal. 84 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:05.639 Nick had arranged for Hardy back in nineteen ninety to 85 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:09.639 sell a portion of his life story to Win of 86 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:12.639 Us the Pictures, and they made a movie. Hardy got 87 00:05:12.639 --> 00:05:16.800 one hundred and fifty grand for his case. For his involvement, 88 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:22.079 He's to be involved also in the promotion of the movie. However, 89 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:25.519 just before it was released, he was arrested for murder. 90 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:29.759 So Disney One of Us the Pictures just scrapped the 91 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:33.959 launch and quietly released it to no fanfare. Patrick Swayzee 92 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.560 Holly Berry start in the film. So Hardy was looking 93 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:41.639 at Bobby Debrino, who he met two years before he 94 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.720 met me, as being his next savior, and Dobrino was 95 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:48.560 just not up to the task. He put together meetings, 96 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:51.959 He even videotape party hadn't come up to Hollywood sent 97 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:54.720 a car for him. A Hardy like that, Oh I'm 98 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:58.279 important at all, and everything just fell apart. The guys 99 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:01.959 followed through was non existent, so Hardy was left holding 100 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:06.199 the empty bag. So when his therapist suggested he might 101 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:09.319 have found her writer he had heard me read this 102 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:13.439 opening paragraph, Hardy was just salivating sid Police. So that's 103 00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:15.079 how we got introduced. 104 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:18.639 Anyway, So what did Hardy believe that you would bring 105 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:22.160 to this project that no one else could? And tell 106 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:25.360 us about the process of being able to convince him 107 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:27.680 that you were truly the person to be able to 108 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:28.360 do this story. 109 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:31.600 Well as it works out timing wise, he was just 110 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:36.360 desperate because this is his last chances. His health was failing. 111 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.959 His wife was there bidding taken care of his all 112 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:44.240 these little needs. She would exit the house for fifteen 113 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:46.319 minutes to have a cigarette and that was her break 114 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:49.079 away from him. So he was in a way, he 115 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:51.879 was desperate and he had no other choices. But he 116 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:54.480 liked that opening paragraph I wrote, and I said, well, 117 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:56.920 let's just start meeting once a week and see how 118 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:01.279 it goes, and I'll take copious notes for months. He 119 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:04.399 just told me what he did. He bounced all around. 120 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:07.600 He robbed this drug dealer, and he partnered with these guys. 121 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:10.279 He robbed banks, and then he was in Hollywood doing 122 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:12.519 this and met this actor and he went somewhere with 123 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:16.600 Ben Gazzara, Stuart Whitman. He was dropping all these names, 124 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:20.079 Chuck Connors, he partied with him a lot, and after 125 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:25.680 a while I used the tenants to listen, accept and encourage. 126 00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:29.360 I never challenged. I just listened, accepted it, and encouraged. 127 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:32.800 And sooner or later, instead of telling me what he did, 128 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.160 he told me why he did it. And that was 129 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:38.079 fascinating that as soon as he opened that door, and 130 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:41.399 I realized the impact that his mother had his life, 131 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.120 her rejection of him, and then how he spent the 132 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:47.399 better portion of his life trying to prove to her 133 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:48.959 he was worthy of her love. 134 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:52.959 So you go to him every week for you say, 135 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:56.079 two and a half hours or so for this process 136 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:59.800 to be able to as you say, he eventually tells 137 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:02.120 you the why. So obviously you have to go back 138 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:04.639 to the very beginning and talk about who his mother 139 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.160 was and the relationship that he had that he struggled 140 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:10.959 with his entire life. As he did, he took you back, 141 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:13.959 take us back, take the audience back to the beginning. 142 00:08:14.079 --> 00:08:16.720 Well, he goes back to his very first memory as 143 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:19.519 a child, and it was of his grandmother and her 144 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:23.759 smells and sense the abilta fish and talcum powder in 145 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:27.240 his crib. Then sitting on his daddy Roy, his grandfather, 146 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:31.639 his southern grandfather's lap and his grandfather tickling him, and 147 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:35.120 the time they would spend together and holding his grandmother's hand, 148 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:40.200 going to school, meeting kids, and the traditions the great 149 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:44.480 grandfather Abraham would every Friday night and Saturday night or 150 00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:50.840 just huge family gatherleries and everybody, uncles and aunts, all 151 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:55.840 brought a special dish, traditional Jewish dish, they went to synagogue. 152 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:58.840 He was just steeped in a lot of that until 153 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:02.080 his grandfather died. When he was eight, His great grandfather 154 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:07.440 died and then just everything traditionally surrounding the Jewish faith 155 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:10.720 fell apart, and he really clung to his grandfather, Daddy 156 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.799 Roy at the time. But his mother would interject herself 157 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.000 into his life. One time, she happened to come by 158 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:21.240 her father's her father's house for breakfast and noticed Michael 159 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:23.919 had some red marks on his neck and where did 160 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.159 you get those? And Michael said, well, my teacher, you know, 161 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:30.159 grabbed the back of my neck because I was out 162 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.519 of line going to the fire drill, and these were 163 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.639 welts on his neck like. And so she showed up 164 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:39.360 that afternoon, threatened to kill the teacher, cut off her 165 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:41.720 hands to the teacher never came back. To the school, 166 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.080 and Michael was proud of that moment, but then he 167 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:49.240 realized later on he was just like a possession. It 168 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:51.960 could have been her car was scratched and she would 169 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:53.080 have reacted the same. 170 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:56.840 Tell us who his mother is, and we in an introduction. 171 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.080 She ran with all these people. But how did it 172 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:03.320 come that she the Shirley Rook, became not number one 173 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:06.919 interested in these people, but became involved with these mobsters. 174 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:10.440 No one in the family could quite understand how at 175 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:14.360 fifteen years old she had bright red hair, just really stunning, 176 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:18.200 would go to midnight Roses candy store and hang out 177 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:21.480 with all the hitmen and the people that would drink there, 178 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:24.000 and she would have them light her cigarettes and where 179 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.879 her steam seemed stockings, and she was just attracted these guys. 180 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:34.600 In nineteen forty three, when she was eighteen, Buggsy Siegel 181 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:37.559 arranged for her to do a screen test in Hollywood, 182 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.000 and she was that steeped and that involved, and she 183 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:45.240 he flew her out to Hollywood. She screen tested and 184 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:48.720 they told her that she was a nice talent at redhead, 185 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.440 but they started rattling off. We got Lucille Ball, we 186 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:58.000 got great Garson, Rita Hayward, you know, and I said, 187 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.759 your talent, but we got a full stable under contract altogether. 188 00:11:02.039 --> 00:11:05.200 So she went south to San Diego to go spend 189 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:08.320 some time with her aunt and lick her wounds. And 190 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:11.320 that's where she met her first cousin, Roy. He looked 191 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:14.240 like a cross between the actor Jim Davis from Dallas 192 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:18.919 and Rory Calhoun, big tall, six one sixty two, dark, 193 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:22.000 wavy hair, and they hit it off, and they hit 194 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:24.759 it off too well. She got pregnant, so Hardy was 195 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.000 born at two first cousins. That was a shame that 196 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:31.240 his mother carried with her, and that's a shame he carried. 197 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:34.679 So when she got back to Brooklyn, she just dumped 198 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:37.879 Michael Hardy with her parents to raise so she could 199 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:40.600 keep on running with a mob, and her involvement with 200 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:45.000 Meyer Lansky kept on growing. After Bugsy was gunned down 201 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.759 in nineteen forty seven, she took up with Joey Adonas 202 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:52.279 and then started running dirty money down to Havana to 203 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:55.399 launder from Mayor Lanski. During the fifties, they set her 204 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:58.639 up with the largest bookmaking operation in New York City. 205 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.240 She had dozens of apartment set up with telephone lines 206 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:06.039 running in and out, big numbers racket, and she had 207 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:08.759 a protection of the mom. Anytime the police came around, 208 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:12.039 it was just taken care of. And she handled payouts 209 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:16.200 to dirty judges, politicians, and cops. So there's a steady 210 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:18.759 stream of cars that showed up in front of her 211 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.200 apartment or brown spelt all the time. And she had 212 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.759 a nice little money box in her buffet. As she 213 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:29.360 would pull out, there'd be envelopes in there with someone's 214 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:31.919 name on it, and she would just hand those. They'd 215 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:33.960 get her peck on the cheek and shake her hand. 216 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.399 The double partment would be on their way. And so 217 00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:40.159 Michael grew up seeing all that, he kept on coming 218 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:43.120 around her, wanting to be near her, figure her out, 219 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:45.399 and she'd keep on shoeing them off like he was 220 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:48.879 a fly, just buzzing around. She didn't want anything to 221 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:49.320 do with him. 222 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:53.879 That feeling, that idea was reinforced because he had three sisters, 223 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:58.120 and unlike his sisters, they weren't rejected by his mother. 224 00:12:58.240 --> 00:12:59.440 At least that's what he believed. 225 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:01.639 That his mother was abandoning and rejecting him, and he 226 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:06.159 didn't understand why. What about Michael's real father? And he 227 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:10.720 also notices and realizes the way his mother treats not 228 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:14.120 only her husbands, but also all men in her life. 229 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:18.919 Yeah, she she treated unless she could control her husband, 230 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.759 her men, she treated them all like slaves. Budgie Siegel 231 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.600 didn't allow it, so she was more attracted to him, 232 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:28.480 but she would be. She married a cop at one point, 233 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:32.519 which is just amazing that she would marry someone in 234 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.919 law enforcement. But that was another way of getting additional 235 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:39.799 protection for the rackets she was running. She really she 236 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:44.919 had a history, from Michael's perspective, of just using her 237 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.120 men anyway she could. One of the last husbands she 238 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:52.039 had was a federally from Mexico that saved her from 239 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.879 being raped in prison. She treated him just She made 240 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:58.480 him sleep on the floor, she did dishes. She he 241 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:01.120 worked at a Hojo's. You know, just get out of 242 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:06.399 the house, keep yourself busy, you know. And he wanted 243 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:09.159 a child so bad. He thought she was ten years 244 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:14.240 younger than she was, so she went. She showed up 245 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:19.200 one day. Michael was running a stolen car, a finger 246 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:22.240 of a stolen car ring, driving cars out to the 247 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.960 West Coast, and she was selling and they'd split the money. 248 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.799 About twelve hundred dollars a car. She showed up one 249 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:31.080 time with a baby. Where'd you get it? He said, well, 250 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:34.679 I know you're pregnant. No. No, she she had bought 251 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:38.759 the baby from someone in Mexico and she was going 252 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:42.759 to get some assistance for it, and that was just 253 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:45.039 another scam of hers and was going to keep her 254 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.759 husband happy that she had a baby, and he ended 255 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:53.399 he ended up going to Tijuana party and got in 256 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:55.960 trouble and thrown in jail for five years, So it 257 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.360 kind of took care of him. She quietly divorced him, 258 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:02.080 and she couldn't get the paperwork she needed because the 259 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:06.039 baby's birth certificate looked like it was obvious forgery, so 260 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:08.080 she just gave the baby back to someone. 261 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:13.159 While she is attaining this role and attaining this height 262 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.559 of success within the organized crime and the people that 263 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:20.759 she's connected to, Michael J. Hardy is struggling with obviously 264 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.120 the rejection from his mother. He has this good influence 265 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.879 in his life, you say about Daddy Roy and this 266 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.919 family in North Carolina. So despite this, you know what 267 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:35.320 he describes as this really shaping of his character due 268 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:38.200 to the good influence of this family and this other 269 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.320 life other than what his mother subjected him to. He 270 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.720 still has a lot of anger. And you say this 271 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:46.840 is part of the why tell us about that? 272 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:51.440 Yeah, that anger just a festered is probably the best 273 00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:54.039 way to describe it. He just didn't understand he had 274 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.960 a father that was just basically a street hustler in 275 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:01.159 San Diego that he's just met once when he was 276 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:04.759 nineteen years old. He was flown out to California to 277 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:07.799 go spend some time with him while they were getting 278 00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:12.240 the right judge to handle an assault case surrounding ice 279 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:14.919 cream delivery. That's the story in himself. And then he 280 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.159 saw what his father is like selling these getting these 281 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.799 cheap little knockoff watches. They were supposed to be Rolexes 282 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:25.600 or something something less. He picked him up for a 283 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:28.480 dollar seventy five. He try and sell them in a 284 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:32.720 bar somewhere, pretending he was a merchant marine on tough times, 285 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:35.600 and he brought his son along to try and add 286 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:38.200 to the plea a little bit. He just saw his 287 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:40.879 father scamming people, and his father took him down to 288 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:42.679 TJ to think he was going to get his son 289 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.840 laid for the first time. You know, the boy hardy 290 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.399 looked at his father, just like who are you? You know, 291 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:51.360 even took him to Hollywood, he introduced some some people 292 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:55.080 just trying to impress him, trying to be his father, 293 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:59.639 but he's so far from it. Hardy, Hardy's the control 294 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.399 for his life as far as a male influence. All 295 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.720 stopped when he was twelve years old, when his grandfather 296 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.079 died and his mother didn't even let him go to 297 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:09.920 the funeral in North Carolina. He had to stay home 298 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.279 and he tried to commit suicide, went into his aunt's 299 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:16.240 medicine cabinet, took a bunch of pills, curl up in 300 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:18.519 the ball in he bed. Just he woke up in 301 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.039 a hospital with his mother standing there for rating him 302 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:24.680 because he was so thoughtless. She had to drive all 303 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:27.319 the way through the night back from North Carolina. Who 304 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:29.559 does he think he is? So you can see how 305 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:32.640 a kid would grow up feeling so alone and just 306 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:34.839 joined it, not belonging to anything. 307 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:38.880 Yeah, you're right that there's an altercation at some point 308 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:43.039 and some disappointment when his mother is late to pick 309 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:46.000 him up, and so he complains, He really complained, He's 310 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:49.279 really distraught, and she says, grow up, be a man, 311 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:52.720 and it sounds like that's the last thing you want 312 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:55.240 to say to this guy, at this young boy, at 313 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.119 this time, and then you chronicle all this delinquency, and 314 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:01.720 I mean at a early age, he's doing things that 315 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:06.400 much older people would be doing, and he realizes the 316 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:09.359 power of the gun, as you're right, when. 317 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:14.240 He was to avoid some law law problems with the law. 318 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.519 His uncle moves down to Florida and Hardy goes along 319 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:21.200 with him, and he gets gets a rifle to begin 320 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.359 with and eventually trades it in for a Roscoe, a revolver, 321 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:30.000 and he practices it out in the Everglades, shooting pal 322 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:34.079 meadow bugs, just becoming very accurate, very comfortable with the 323 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:37.079 sound of the pop and the and the recoil of 324 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.599 a gun. And when he goes back to Brooklyn, he 325 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.480 takes that gun with him and it's a year later 326 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:46.960 and he's bigger and he's filling out jackets, bigger, better, 327 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.359 and he forms a gang at his school and the 328 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:53.640 first time he uses a gun on another person is 329 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.119 when there's a big gang fight after school against a 330 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.720 group of kids called the Corsair Lords. He he fires 331 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.079 one shot in the air and then fire shots in 332 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:05.759 their legs, when this crowd of nearly one hundred are 333 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:08.200 coming at him and his buddies that were about twelve. 334 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.000 And after that, when they all meet at the local 335 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:13.920 pizza place, that's when he realized, looks around the table, 336 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:16.480 he's gone the way of the gun. Now he can't 337 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:18.000 hang around these boys anymore. 338 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.519 What happens with his mother and with his uncle Morty 339 00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:25.599 in almost all of these court proceedings despite what he 340 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.720 the serious trouble he gets in for quite a while. 341 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:31.720 What happens in these court proceedings and why. 342 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.279 Well, if it's activity up in the New York area, 343 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:37.400 and there's always a judge and a lawyer that his 344 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.799 mother or uncle Morty arrange and it quietly gets quashed. 345 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.519 If it down in Florida, her reach doesn't extend down there. 346 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.359 So he's got to do his first time. He spends 347 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.599 I believe, three weeks in a home where he's got 348 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:54.960 to follow the rules. He's never supposed to come back 349 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.599 to Florida again. That's part of the deal he makes 350 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:02.240 with a judge. And she intercedes when she has to, 351 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:07.559 and she's really upset that she's being bothered by the activity, 352 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:11.480 but she is a legal guardian, so she has called 353 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:14.039 upon every once in a while to dip her toes 354 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.920 into those unwonted waters of taking care of her son. 355 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:21.880 Now, tell us fast forward a little bit to how 356 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:25.160 he progresses. While his mother rises in the ranks and 357 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:29.480 does well and cements her role with organized crime. He 358 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.279 is making a name for himself and is getting noticed 359 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.880 by some people. What kind of crimes is he getting 360 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:36.960 noticed for? And what kind of behavior is he getting 361 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:38.880 notsed for and noticed by who? 362 00:20:39.079 --> 00:20:43.160 Well, some of the activity he gets involved in just 363 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:46.599 because he's so brash and he's looking for ways to 364 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.880 make scores. He runs into the Gotti brothers at one point, 365 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.319 and this is before John Gotti becomes John Gotti. John 366 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:57.599 and his brothers Richie and I'm trying to remember the name, Jean, 367 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:01.319 Richie and Jean Gotti. They rip off a seaview bowling 368 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:04.640 out a couple thousand dollars, big score. They're out party 369 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:08.720 and Gene and Richie come and find them, and they 370 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:11.440 get an altercation and they beat the living crap out 371 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:14.440 of the John Gott He finds out about it afterwards, 372 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.079 and they come hunting for him, and Hardy gets shot 373 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.640 twice by them. Once in the wrist as he goes 374 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:23.039 to park his car the night in through his front windshield, 375 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.319 and then once the next day and a big shootout 376 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:28.880 where a bullet goes through a door of a car 377 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:31.319 and hits in the stomach. Each time he goes and 378 00:21:31.359 --> 00:21:34.599 gets gay nursed to mend him up. He even raised 379 00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:37.240 his shirt up when I was interviewing him to show 380 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.519 that the scar that he the shot that he took, 381 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:44.319 and his belly was still kind of weeping lead from 382 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:47.359 a shot that he took in the early sixties. You know, 383 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:51.799 he tangled with some pretty seasoned people within the mob 384 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.400 as well, but he was on the outskirts. He didn't 385 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:58.039 he never really worked for the mob. He did hits 386 00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:00.880 for them. It was his contract work. Again. He was 387 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:05.279 just got paid one thousand dollars apiece to go perform hits. 388 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.720 And for him, it was hoping that the news would 389 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.160 get back to his mother and she'd be proud of them. 390 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:16.279 He is a very different individual and sees the world 391 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:20.880 entering into war. He shakes hands with John F. Kennedy 392 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.039 when he passes through town. He ends up enlisting in 393 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:27.000 the army. Tell us about that. 394 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.000 He tried to list early in the year when he 395 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:33.960 was not quite seventeen, and he had a fake birth certificate, 396 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:36.480 and his mother came in with them, and she screwed 397 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:38.839 up the interview. I mean, she couldn't even lie correctly, 398 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.359 and that's what pissed him off, because her whole life 399 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:44.240 is a lie. But she messed up the first interview 400 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.480 in January, I believe it was he just had a 401 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.839