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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo,

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<v Speaker 1>and Lorenzo on this episode, I want to go over

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<v Speaker 1>something pretty important and special and different and I can't

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<v Speaker 1>even think of the right words because there there are

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<v Speaker 1>no words. But this is, for at least the foreseeable future,

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<v Speaker 1>the last episode of Hacking Your Leadership.

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<v Speaker 2>Bump bump, Yes, yes it is. I think it's. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we've had a lot of years in this game and

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<v Speaker 2>doing this show, and we know we've talked about it

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<v Speaker 2>multiple times. When do you decide and when do you

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<v Speaker 2>figure it out? And when do you kind of evolve

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<v Speaker 2>or change or move on or stop? And there's never

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<v Speaker 2>a shortage of leadership topics to talk about. But I

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<v Speaker 2>also know that, like, as we've grown and developed, and

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<v Speaker 2>as we've found things to get into and things to

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<v Speaker 2>work on, there's always a good time to take a pause.

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<v Speaker 2>And after this many years of consistent episodes, it felt

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<v Speaker 2>right to uh get to this point of a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>yearly anniversary of the show and then say, hey, let's

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<v Speaker 2>uh let's take a break and let's uh let's figure

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<v Speaker 2>out what happens from here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it's I think it's important to sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>figure out what things, what the things in our lives,

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<v Speaker 1>what value they add, and and sometimes it's hard to

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<v Speaker 1>figure that out when you're in that rhythm right. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>you have to change things up to figure out if

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<v Speaker 1>you've done the right thing or not. And that might

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<v Speaker 1>be the case, like were, there might be you know,

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<v Speaker 1>massive public backlash from all of our fans saying, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>get your butts back in the studio and keep going

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<v Speaker 1>because we depend on this, and you know, and it

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<v Speaker 1>might look a little different. It might it might be

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<v Speaker 1>a few months, it might be longer, it might not

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<v Speaker 1>might be ever. But there's you know, my favorite band

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<v Speaker 1>of all time is You Two, and it's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>kind of cheesy, but a long time ago, the lead

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<v Speaker 1>singer of You Two, Bono, said that the band was

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<v Speaker 1>going to break up. This is like back in nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty nine. He says, it's time to go to go

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<v Speaker 1>away and dream it all back up again. And and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, with the with the idea fully in his

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<v Speaker 1>mind that it might not be ever like that. It

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<v Speaker 1>might dreaming it all up again might not mean that

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<v Speaker 1>it comes back at all. And I think that's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of where I am right now or where we are

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<v Speaker 1>right now, which is just that we don't know what

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<v Speaker 1>the next iteration will look like or if there will

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<v Speaker 1>be one. But but we're trying to figure out what

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<v Speaker 1>value this show adds to our own lives from the investment.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm not talking about money. I'm talking about just

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<v Speaker 1>the emotional capital and the fact that as as working

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<v Speaker 1>parents of young children and limited time, trying to figure

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<v Speaker 1>out where that where it fits in and the value

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<v Speaker 1>that it brings in the trade offs in time that

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<v Speaker 1>that it comes with, and you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, it's got to be worth it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's got to be worth it, and it has to

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<v Speaker 1>be something that we that we want to continue doing

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<v Speaker 1>because of the value that it brings. And we're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to figure out what that looks like and if it does

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<v Speaker 1>still does still fit within our lives in some way,

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<v Speaker 1>and that'll take some time to figure out.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think over the

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<v Speaker 2>over the years, one of the questions that I get

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<v Speaker 2>constantly from people it's around podcasting is like, how do

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<v Speaker 2>you guys do it? How how are you so consistent?

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<v Speaker 2>And how you done it for so long? How do

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<v Speaker 2>you make sure that you've always got content? In this

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<v Speaker 2>type of thing, and I think we've done a really

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<v Speaker 2>nice job of just refining it. And you know, from

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<v Speaker 2>the first episode, we were like, we just want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it. We don't want any script, We don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to you know, overproduce this, we don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>over edit this. We just want to talk about leadership

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<v Speaker 2>and answer questions and provide our perspective. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>over the years we've done a really good job of

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<v Speaker 2>like getting that down to just like hit the record button,

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<v Speaker 2>here's the topic, let's go. But also to your point,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I think that there there's other vehicles. We've

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<v Speaker 2>tried some different ways of also continuing to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>leadership and whether that's in you know, we started interviewing guests,

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<v Speaker 2>we started doing you know, writing and newsletters and clubhouse

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<v Speaker 2>you know talk club clubhouse exactly, yep, clubhouse audio, right, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>just a lot of stuff that we did to just share,

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<v Speaker 2>to share our perspective and provide, you know, what we

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<v Speaker 2>thought would be helpful for people. And there are a

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<v Speaker 2>ton of other leadership people that are in the space

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<v Speaker 2>that we are fans of that we like that we

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<v Speaker 2>often reference or or share, and that's another part of

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<v Speaker 2>this platform that you know, we've talked a lot about us,

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<v Speaker 2>how can we use this to help others that have

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<v Speaker 2>great messages get their messages out there? That's always been

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<v Speaker 2>really important and I think that's something that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not going to delete the channel, We're not going

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<v Speaker 2>to delete the library. You know, these episodes and there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of them, will continue to exist in a

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<v Speaker 2>space where people can listen to them and check them out.

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<v Speaker 2>And who knows, from time to time, we might we

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<v Speaker 2>might feel the need to you know, put some content out,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's our somebody else's, just to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>continue to share in the initial idea of the show,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like, how do we do our best to

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<v Speaker 2>share thoughts, perspectives and advice you know, to other leaders

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<v Speaker 2>in the work that you do in leading people. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, in our eight years of doing

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<v Speaker 2>the show, a lot of our own leadership has matured

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<v Speaker 2>and solidified, and our perspectives have sharpened as a result

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<v Speaker 2>of the conversations that we've had with each other and

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<v Speaker 2>with guests that we've had on.

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<v Speaker 3>I agree completely with that.

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<v Speaker 1>I think they're you know, the the most to me,

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<v Speaker 1>the most valuable content for the show comes from our

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<v Speaker 1>own personal experiences, and so you know, it can start

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<v Speaker 1>out with a listener question or an article we saw

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<v Speaker 1>online or a video that we saw that that resonated

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<v Speaker 1>with us. But the reason that resonated with us, or

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<v Speaker 1>the reason why the question was something that we thought

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<v Speaker 1>it was nice to be a nice thing to answer,

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<v Speaker 1>is because some one of us experienced something in our

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<v Speaker 1>own lives and our own leadership journey that we can say, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what, I have some perspective on this, like

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<v Speaker 1>I went through something similar or sometimes the exact same thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and I can I can share how either I made

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<v Speaker 1>the wrong move and learned from it, or made the

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<v Speaker 1>right move by luck, or made the right move by

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<v Speaker 1>skill because I had been in this situation before, and

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<v Speaker 1>like it all, it all stems from just the experiences

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<v Speaker 1>that we have, and that's where the content becomes most valuable.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know that content or that those experiences continue

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<v Speaker 1>to happen over the last eight years as we were

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<v Speaker 1>talking about them, which is why there was really never

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<v Speaker 1>a shortage of topics because it wasn't just about like

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's not like a sitcom where you have

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<v Speaker 1>to just find a new trope.

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<v Speaker 3>Or a new a new joke to write every week.

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<v Speaker 1>This is just thinking about real life and the interactions

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<v Speaker 1>that we have with the people who report to us,

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<v Speaker 1>the people we interact with in our own leadership lives,

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<v Speaker 1>and then talking about those experiences in a way that

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<v Speaker 1>is meaningful and that shows the learnings that we have

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<v Speaker 1>had from them. And I think that that's that's why

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<v Speaker 1>the show has resonated with with so many people, is

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<v Speaker 1>because it's not it's not made up, you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's based on the real things that happen in our

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<v Speaker 1>lives and and the vulnerability that comes with, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sharing those learnings and those missteps especially.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, I think, you know, sharing places where we've

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<v Speaker 2>made mistakes or things that we've learned, sharing you know,

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<v Speaker 2>passionately about you know, processes and strategies and approaches to leadership.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, I think over the years we've we've

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<v Speaker 2>we've had all kinds of conversations from like funny times

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<v Speaker 2>of things that have happened to silly stuff that happens

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<v Speaker 2>in different industries, to serious topics that you know, have

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<v Speaker 2>a real impact on people, to topics that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>over the years have evolved in how we see them

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<v Speaker 2>in society, how we see them in the workforce, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>to leaders and maybe strategies and discussions that we had

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<v Speaker 2>eight years ago to then getting through you know, twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty and COVID and all that type of thing, to

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<v Speaker 2>then kind of the new iteration of that, and we

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<v Speaker 2>talked a lot about what things have really solidified and

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<v Speaker 2>then what things are new, and what things are wide open,

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<v Speaker 2>and how is you know, the you know, how are

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<v Speaker 2>our people, the workforce, the culture now in a place

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<v Speaker 2>where we're holding leaders accountable in a very different way

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<v Speaker 2>and in a good way, which is just raising the

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<v Speaker 2>bar of what should be expected from having a leader

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<v Speaker 2>that's supposed to be there to inspire and motivate, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>help support people do the work that they're doing. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think that that's been a really fun part of

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<v Speaker 2>the journey, is just being a part of conversations that

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<v Speaker 2>I think we're relevant really closely in the moment. Like

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<v Speaker 2>I immediately get brought back to the We did an

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<v Speaker 2>episode about a hurricane that happened in Florida, and oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a you know, come to work anyway. It

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<v Speaker 2>was like a pizza place that was just like we

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<v Speaker 2>don't care go to work, right. We just talked about

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<v Speaker 2>that and it was like, how ridiculous is that? And

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that was something that we read in the news.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's just those moments that happened that I think

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<v Speaker 2>really skyrocketed what what is the expectation of leadership and

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<v Speaker 2>what is the what are the right things to do

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<v Speaker 2>or the right way to handle things? And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's probably been the most fun for me is just

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<v Speaker 2>the amount of listeners that have reached out in so

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<v Speaker 2>many different ways continue to share our content. It just

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<v Speaker 2>happened last week somebody shared one of our short clips

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<v Speaker 2>on LinkedIn and talked about how important this subject was

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<v Speaker 2>and how it was something they struggled with and they

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<v Speaker 2>work through. So, you know, I just it's been a

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<v Speaker 2>fun journey. But I think I've just enjoyed watching the

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<v Speaker 2>conversations that we've had continue to go through other listeners

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<v Speaker 2>and leaders that feel the same way or want to

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<v Speaker 2>share their perspective on some of the topics.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the example you gave just now of that hurricane thing,

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<v Speaker 1>it kind of made me think of something that I

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<v Speaker 1>think is important to kind of discuss, and that's that

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<v Speaker 1>that it's it's hard not to think that our own,

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<v Speaker 1>like our experience in leadership, both as a leader of

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<v Speaker 1>people and as as someone who has reported to leaders

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<v Speaker 1>throughout our journeys, we've all had, we've all always had,

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<v Speaker 1>we both always had a boss at any given time.

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<v Speaker 1>There's always been one, sometimes more than one. And the

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<v Speaker 1>examples of like that that hurricane in Florida is it's

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<v Speaker 1>really difficult sometimes not to think that our own perspective

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<v Speaker 1>or our own experience as employees reporting to leaders, it's

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<v Speaker 1>hard not to think that that's the norm, because I

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<v Speaker 1>think both of have been very fortunate in our leadership

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<v Speaker 1>journeys that we've had goodly bosses and bad bosses. I

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<v Speaker 1>can definitely, you know, place them in a hierarchical order, right.

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<v Speaker 1>I've learned from the good ones that I've learned sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>even more from the bad ones, but none of them

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<v Speaker 1>have ever risen to that level of like, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't care about your safety.

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<v Speaker 3>Come to work at a pizza place.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, And and because of that, it's it's sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>it's hard not to not to chuckle at that a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit and think like that's it's almost satire, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's not. And I think over the years, the instances

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<v Speaker 1>of that happening are far less than it would have been,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, thirty forty fifty years ago. I think a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of it has to do with, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>visibility to things like that happening. If if that happened,

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<v Speaker 1>if that interaction happened between the pizza place owner and

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<v Speaker 1>the employee in nineteen eighty two, no one would ever

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<v Speaker 1>know about it because there'd be no place to show it,

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<v Speaker 1>to share it with everybody, right, and that would just happen.

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<v Speaker 1>And nowadays it gets shared and there's a there's a

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<v Speaker 1>level of social accountability that at least has helped keep

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<v Speaker 1>some leaders, you know, on the straight and narrow a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit, you know, for even if not for the

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<v Speaker 1>right reasons, sometimes doing the right thing for the wrong

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<v Speaker 1>reasons is still the right thing, right.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, you're still doing it.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that has kind of moved the needle

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<v Speaker 1>on the experience employees have. But there are still areas

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<v Speaker 1>where it is not good. There are still areas, there

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<v Speaker 1>are still places across the workforce where the employee experience

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<v Speaker 1>is not great.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think anytime that is the case, all roads

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<v Speaker 3>lead back to leadership.

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<v Speaker 1>All roads of the of a negative employee experience lead

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<v Speaker 1>back to the effectiveness of the leadership team in that

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<v Speaker 1>organization and what they're doing or how they're prioritizing the

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<v Speaker 1>employee experience and.

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<v Speaker 3>Whether or not they do it.

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<v Speaker 2>All to begin with Yeah, No, it's it's a great call,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it's a you know, yeah, I'm just

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just I'm just stuck in the space of just

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about, like, how do you possibly provide thank you

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<v Speaker 2>user gratitude to all of the people that have like

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<v Speaker 2>pushed our show forward, from whether it be guests that

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<v Speaker 2>said yes right away, you know, like I think of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we for a long time we didn't do guests,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we really wanted to build some space to say, like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>we want to talk to the people that we want

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<v Speaker 2>to talk to. And then it was kind of like

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<v Speaker 2>nerve wrecking, Well let's reach let's reach out to the

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<v Speaker 2>people that we want to talk to. And the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that so many of them said yes and they're like yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, absolutely, Like that was tremendous. I think of

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<v Speaker 2>all of the listener questions and the text messages dms,

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<v Speaker 2>the screenshots that were sent to me about people listening

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<v Speaker 2>to the show, just like the continual push forward from

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<v Speaker 2>people to say like, hey love this, love that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>using it this way.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>We've had leaders from from organizations reach out and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>we've put together a collection of what we think are

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<v Speaker 2>the ten shows that resonate most with our workforce, and

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<v Speaker 2>we've turned this into like a training document.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that cool?

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<v Speaker 2>And we're like yeah, of course, like you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>whatever whatever you want to do, Like the whole point

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<v Speaker 2>of this is like, yeah, use it for whatever you can.

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<v Speaker 2>But like, I just think about all of those listeners, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>and people that helped to push us to continue to

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<v Speaker 2>like evolve what we talked about evolve, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>way that we were doing our episodes, the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the the guests interviews that pay it Forward Fridays, the

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<v Speaker 2>employee engagement Thursdays, the Thoughtful Thursdays. Like we did so

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<v Speaker 2>many things that I think we were driven by people

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<v Speaker 2>that listen to the show. And I think that's something

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<v Speaker 2>that's cool about the podcasting space when you have that

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<v Speaker 2>connection with an audience, is that you know you can

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<v Speaker 2>adjust and move and pivot to the places that they

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<v Speaker 2>want you to go to. And and I think that

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<v Speaker 2>that's been a fun part of the journey. It's just

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<v Speaker 2>continuing to like, you know, have people that have an

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<v Speaker 2>influence on how I'm thinking about leadership that I don't

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<v Speaker 2>even know, you know what I'm saying, not alone, like

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<v Speaker 2>don't work with every day, but like complete strangers and

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<v Speaker 2>thousands of them saying, hey, you should talk about this,

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<v Speaker 2>or we need to talk about that, and things that

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<v Speaker 2>maybe I hadn't even considered in my own leadership or

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<v Speaker 2>things that I hadn't come across yet that I now

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<v Speaker 2>had to have an opinion on and had to think through.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that was super fun and helpful.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it has made me better at leadership.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, there's just the interactions with our audience and the

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<v Speaker 1>the things that we've had to contemplate and think about

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<v Speaker 1>and and you know, it's we talked, we talk off

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<v Speaker 1>on the show about the importance of at of leading

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<v Speaker 1>with values, right about figuring out what is important to

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<v Speaker 1>you and then leading with that and allowing that to

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<v Speaker 1>guide your decision making process as a leader. And then

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<v Speaker 1>and then if you allow it to go your decision

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<v Speaker 1>making process as a leader, and the outcome isn't what

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<v Speaker 1>you what what it needed to be. Then Okay, then

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<v Speaker 1>does that mean that you didn't really use that as

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<v Speaker 1>a guide or does it mean that your your values

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<v Speaker 1>need to tweak or change a little.

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<v Speaker 3>Bit based on the the.

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<v Speaker 2>Time are you are?

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<v Speaker 3>You?

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<v Speaker 1>Are they not well defined yet because of the experience

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<v Speaker 1>or lack thereof that you that you have in the workforce,

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<v Speaker 1>Like all these things happen over time, and and as you.

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<v Speaker 3>The more you do it, the better a process it becomes.

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<v Speaker 1>And the the process of doing that through the lens

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<v Speaker 1>of the of the things that our listeners have asked

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<v Speaker 1>of us and kind of thinking, Okay, this hasn't happened

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<v Speaker 1>to me, but it's happening to one of our listeners

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<v Speaker 1>who's who's asking for advice on this? How how would

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<v Speaker 1>I deal with this? And And it's a lot harder

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<v Speaker 1>to do that hypothetically than it is if it's if

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<v Speaker 1>it's really happening, because you actually have to make the decision.

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<v Speaker 1>But it really has helped me test my values as

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<v Speaker 1>a leader by putting those situations through through the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of the mill of my personal values to see if

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<v Speaker 1>the outcome aligns with what is a appropriate for the

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<v Speaker 1>situation and b doesn't. But heads with my values right.

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<v Speaker 1>It kind of checks my values in the process to

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<v Speaker 1>see if they are still right, if they're still appropriate,

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<v Speaker 1>or if I need to tweak them. Because you if

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<v Speaker 1>you're never tweaking your values, it doesn't mean that you're steadfast.

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<v Speaker 1>It means that you are you know, unwilling to change

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<v Speaker 1>to changing times. Because your values should change over time.

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<v Speaker 1>They should just change thoughtfully and methodically and based on

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<v Speaker 1>like real true evidence, not you know, not whimsically, but

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<v Speaker 1>they but they should not remain the same, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>for forever. And these examples that we've gotten from our

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<v Speaker 1>our listeners has they've They've definitely caused me to to

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<v Speaker 1>to think through my values and what's important to me

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<v Speaker 1>and and make make tweaks or changes when appropriate. And

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's it's it's been very valuable to me too,

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<v Speaker 1>not just to our.

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<v Speaker 2>Listeners, absolutely, And with that it brings us to the

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<v Speaker 2>end of this chapter for hacking your leadership.

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<v Speaker 1>Before we go, I just you know, I know that

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<v Speaker 1>when we talked about doing this, Lorenzo, you said that

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<v Speaker 1>you really wanted to put some time and effort into

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<v Speaker 1>thinking through kind of like if you had one piece

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<v Speaker 1>of advice, like one nugget of advice for our listeners that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, for somebody who is going into leadership or

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<v Speaker 1>new to leadership, or.

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<v Speaker 3>If they're just struggling with leadership in general.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, the thing that you'd want to have on

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<v Speaker 1>the wall in front of you every day that you

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<v Speaker 1>could look up at and and and read to yourself

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<v Speaker 1>and kind of like a rock or an anchor of

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<v Speaker 1>leadership advice to our listeners. You said you felt it

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<v Speaker 1>was really important to kind of have that kind of

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<v Speaker 1>like get to let our audience kind of take away

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<v Speaker 1>at the at the end of the last episode. And

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<v Speaker 1>I really like that idea, and you know, I know

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<v Speaker 1>you've already shared it with me, and I think it's fantastic.

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<v Speaker 1>I think you did a really great job of kind

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<v Speaker 1>of narrowing it down and thinking about something where the

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<v Speaker 1>rubber really meets the road that our our listeners can

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<v Speaker 1>take with them as they as they depart from the

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<v Speaker 1>show for a while. And so I'll let you take

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<v Speaker 1>it away and end the episode with this with this kernel.

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<v Speaker 1>But this is a really fantastic stuff here.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, we've had these one minute hacks

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<v Speaker 2>for the entire period, and I kind of felt that like,

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<v Speaker 2>this is really important to kind of like eight years,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like over thousand episodes, how you slice it,

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<v Speaker 2>decades of leadership experience between the two of us, really

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<v Speaker 2>trying to boil this down to say, like what what

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<v Speaker 2>do you say and how do you help to guide

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<v Speaker 2>someone into their future? How do you help to take

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<v Speaker 2>someone who has been a leader for a long time

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<v Speaker 2>and give them something that may reshape the way they

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<v Speaker 2>think about leadership and can leave an impressed and very

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<v Speaker 2>like it kind of an impression of people that they

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<v Speaker 2>will take with them forever. People we always have those

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<v Speaker 2>quotes that we heard some people say that they just

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<v Speaker 2>stick with us and they help us, and those those

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<v Speaker 2>really tough times. And so you know what I would

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<v Speaker 2>say is like, you know, boiling it all down, all

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<v Speaker 2>that time, all that tenure, all that experience, all the

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<v Speaker 2>conversations that we've had, the tens of thousands of minutes

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<v Speaker 2>and hours of dialogue. For me, you know, leadership really

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<v Speaker 2>just comes down to this one very simple statement, and

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<v Speaker 2>that is