WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>John's in Switzerland and Steve's in Regievik, and I know,

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<v Speaker 1>well whiskey, come and take my pain, my hondys.

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<v Speaker 2>My brain.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh why think alone when you can drink it all

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<v Speaker 3>in with Ricochet's Three Whiskey Happy Hour. Join your bartenders,

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<v Speaker 3>Steve Hayward, John You and the international woman of Mystery,

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<v Speaker 3>Lucretia where.

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<v Speaker 2>They lapped it up and live it Ain't you leave

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<v Speaker 2>me on the should have got to give me and

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<v Speaker 2>let that whiskey.

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<v Speaker 4>Good morning everyone. This is going to be the craziest

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<v Speaker 4>podcast that you've ever heard from the Three Whiskey a

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<v Speaker 4>Happy Hour because not only are John and Steve awall,

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<v Speaker 4>nobody knows where they are.

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<v Speaker 1>A rumor has it that they're trumping somewhere across the

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<v Speaker 1>glaciers in Iceland, and and I believe it's John who's

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<v Speaker 1>in some castle in Switzerland somewhere plotting world dominance for

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<v Speaker 1>the neo cons. I don't know what they're doing, but

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<v Speaker 1>they skipped out on the podcast and rather than listen

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<v Speaker 1>to me the whole time, I have the very special

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<v Speaker 1>guest with me. Who is going who's a favorite of listeners.

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<v Speaker 1>The last time he was on, I got a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of positive comments, and that is Vincent Philip Muno So

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<v Speaker 1>better known as Phil at least to me, Phil tell

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<v Speaker 1>us really quick, a little bit about yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, thank thanks for having me. Happy to spare

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<v Speaker 2>the listeners A week from John and John and Steve.

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<v Speaker 2>So I got my PhD from Claremont.

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<v Speaker 4>Like I was the rest of us except for John, as.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the last undergraduate students of Harry Jaffa. Doctor

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<v Speaker 2>Jaffa was forced to retire in nineteen eighty nine and

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<v Speaker 2>I arrived in nineteen eighty nine, so he wasn't teaching.

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<v Speaker 2>He was emeritus by that point. He would just drop

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<v Speaker 2>in on other people's classes. So I wrote my undergraduate

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<v Speaker 2>thesis with him, and then I decided to go back

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<v Speaker 2>to Claremont for the PhD and been writing on the

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<v Speaker 2>constitution and religious liberty ever since. And now I've ended

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<v Speaker 2>up at Notre Dame where I'm a professor.

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<v Speaker 1>Here, and also, as I understand, a fellow at the

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<v Speaker 1>Civitas Center in Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, i was visiting a scholar visiting a faculty member

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<v Speaker 2>at the School of Civic Leadership at the University of Texas,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm still a fellow there. A great project with

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<v Speaker 2>great leadership. They're not perfect. I think they are trying

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<v Speaker 2>to hire John but and me, yeah and yeah, No,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a wonderful. It's a wonderful. It's probably the most

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<v Speaker 2>exciting thing happening in higher education. There are these new

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<v Speaker 2>schools of civic leadership, and the one at the University

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<v Speaker 2>of Texas will be the best of them, I think.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. The Chronicle is trying very hard to make it

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<v Speaker 1>sound as if these are horrible plays is filled with

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<v Speaker 1>with animosity and rife with all sorts of backstabbing. There's

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<v Speaker 1>an article every other day, which I because I think

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<v Speaker 1>what they realize.

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<v Speaker 4>They're scared to death of them.

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<v Speaker 2>Because they're scared to death. I mean these they're portrayed

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<v Speaker 2>as you know, right wing conservative. They're right wing and

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<v Speaker 2>conservative because they teach things like the federalist papers, political.

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<v Speaker 4>History, or even even normal.

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<v Speaker 2>Economics, economics, philosophy, Western civilization. They're actually doing what universities

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<v Speaker 2>used to do. And it is true that many of

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<v Speaker 2>these are the creatures of red state legislators or public

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<v Speaker 2>university University of Florida, Ohio State University, University of Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a new one, University of South Carolina. But it's

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<v Speaker 2>true that they've been created by red state legislatures in

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<v Speaker 2>red or purple states. But the education they offer is

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<v Speaker 2>it's an American education.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, my state started one that both of the big schools,

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<v Speaker 1>and they've the one in ASU I think is it's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much a libertarian economics focus because it also got

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<v Speaker 1>some Koch Brothers money. I guess ours did. To The

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<v Speaker 1>one at my university is so lame. It's run by

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<v Speaker 1>some feminist and it's no longer even there's no conservative

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<v Speaker 1>viewpoint to it at all, or even an American civilization

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<v Speaker 1>we American slash Western civilization viewpoint.

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<v Speaker 4>So I don't have anything to do with them.

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<v Speaker 2>But well, this is always the danger in academia because

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<v Speaker 2>even at Notre Dame, the College of Arts and Letters,

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<v Speaker 2>it's overwhelmingly left in the faculty. So there's always a

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<v Speaker 2>tendency to drift left. If you're not very countercultural, explicitly countercultural,

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to drift left and really really drift left.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm very optimistic about these new schools, in part

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<v Speaker 2>because the leadership dean at the University of Texas justin

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<v Speaker 2>Dyer is just phenomenal. Yeah, there, it's a place where

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<v Speaker 2>conservatives are welcome, which is a change, but really it's

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<v Speaker 2>a place their mission focused, and their mission is restoring

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<v Speaker 2>the principles and teaching the principles of the United States constitutionalism,

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<v Speaker 2>and the and the debates, all the debates left and right,

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<v Speaker 2>all sides. So it's it's very exciting, I think, John,

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<v Speaker 2>and hopefully you are going to be headed to text

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<v Speaker 2>Steve Man Steve too, and maybe all in up there

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<v Speaker 2>as well. But we did something similar Notre Dame. We've

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<v Speaker 2>actually been doing it at Notre Dame for over a decade.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, I was down at Texas to help them

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<v Speaker 2>set up their curriculum. So there are these pockets of

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<v Speaker 2>a traditional education around the country. So you listeners with

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<v Speaker 2>college age kids or high school age kids, you should

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<v Speaker 2>look for these new schools of civic leadership. As I said,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the most promising things, promising developments in higher education.

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<v Speaker 1>I think so. And actually I believe it or not.

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<v Speaker 1>People do ask us all the time, where can I

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<v Speaker 1>send my kid? And you know, the usual answer was

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<v Speaker 1>always his Hillsdale, But so there you go. Texas Texas

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<v Speaker 1>is another option. Maybe we'll do a whole show on that.

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<v Speaker 1>One of these days. I do want to mention a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of things. I'm very excited about the renaming of

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<v Speaker 1>the Department of Defense to the Department of War. They

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<v Speaker 1>have already as a what was it two days ago

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<v Speaker 1>that Trump announced this? The website, the Department of Defense

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<v Speaker 1>website is now war dot gov.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I saw the New York Times headline, and I

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<v Speaker 2>immediately forwarded to John. And John's response was, I might

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<v Speaker 2>have to go back in the governor. Governor. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>want a business card that says Department of War.

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<v Speaker 4>I know, it's so great. What are those crazy things

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<v Speaker 4>this week? I do want to talk a moment.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't even know what you think about all this

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<v Speaker 1>because I had a we had a rather I don't

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<v Speaker 1>even know if it's fair to say it was rancorous

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<v Speaker 1>debate with Ken Green a few times ago. But can

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<v Speaker 1>Green considers me a conspiracy rfk nut?

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<v Speaker 4>But I'm I'm all.

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<v Speaker 1>In, by the way on eating clean, shall we say?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't need processed foods and this and that. And

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<v Speaker 1>I'm also becoming more and more suspicious about the whole

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<v Speaker 1>vaccine thing. Not because I think vaccines have always been

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<v Speaker 1>a terrible thing or anything like that. I mean, they

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<v Speaker 1>saved America from smallpox and polio, But do you know

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<v Speaker 1>how many vaccines a child gets now by the time

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<v Speaker 1>they're eighteen.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I have three kids, and I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>how many, but I do remember the you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>standard advice we got, and they just it's not only

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<v Speaker 2>how many, but at the same time, yeah, yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>just overwhelmed. It's a small body. So we space We

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<v Speaker 2>think we did all the vaccines, but we spaced them

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<v Speaker 2>out differently.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, my daughter.

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<v Speaker 1>Is thirty six and when she was at her second

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<v Speaker 1>I believe it's around two months old, her second appointment

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<v Speaker 1>for vaccines, they wanted to give her a hepatitis B

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<v Speaker 1>vaccine and her father was a had a degree in microbiology,

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<v Speaker 1>didn't make him a medical expert. But he's, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>why would you do this? I know what they had.

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<v Speaker 1>The nurse couldn't answer. She said, well, it's really just experimental.

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<v Speaker 1>He says, you want to do an experiment on That

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<v Speaker 1>was thirty six years ago. Now they routinely give the

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<v Speaker 1>hepatitis B vaccine to infants immediately on the off chance

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<v Speaker 1>that their mother might have been excuse the expression a

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<v Speaker 1>crack hor and transfer hepatitis b it's crazy anyway. So RFK,

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<v Speaker 1>it's funny because you also see the conservative world divided

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<v Speaker 1>over RFK and even over his testimony. New York Post

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<v Speaker 1>had a New York Post opinion, the editorial board opinion

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<v Speaker 1>just calling him a total quack and blah blah blah

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<v Speaker 1>blah blah. And then another article, opinion article by someone

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<v Speaker 1>I forget, just saying how incredibly right he was because

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<v Speaker 1>he's not saying no vaccines or anything like that. He's

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<v Speaker 1>just saying we need to follow the science. But the senators,

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<v Speaker 1>did you say, you're probably too busy to have watched

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<v Speaker 1>even a moment of the testimony.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't. I didn't watch any of the testimony. My

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<v Speaker 2>general line on this is I'm distrustful of experts, all experts.

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<v Speaker 2>So the parts I like of RFK are his sort

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<v Speaker 2>of hey, let's pause, I'm not sure. And doctors, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I have lots of friends who are doctors. Doctors are

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<v Speaker 2>used to being the smartest people in the room. They

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<v Speaker 2>rarely tell you what they don't know. So I just

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<v Speaker 2>have a real healthy skepticism. So that skepticism I appreciate

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<v Speaker 2>and I think is needed. No, I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>he's right either, but I think we need a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more skepticism. I mean I grew up eating the food pyramid, right,

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<v Speaker 2>stuffing myself with kicks and bread for you know, carbohydrates

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<v Speaker 2>which we were supposed to I mean you remember the

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<v Speaker 2>old food of course I do. Oh And now they're like,

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<v Speaker 2>that's exactly wrong or at least that's not right.

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<v Speaker 1>Well some people are at least. Yeah. Then remember fats

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<v Speaker 1>were at the top, and you know, I make it

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<v Speaker 1>a point to eat as much butter as I can margin,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm almost told me she was supposed to feed his.

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<v Speaker 1>Margarin, right, you know, yeah, I used to. I've told

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<v Speaker 1>the story before. I used to bootleg cases of blue

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<v Speaker 1>bonnet margin to my grandparents up in the north shore

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<v Speaker 1>of Minnesota, Lake Superior, Minnesota because they insisted you had

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<v Speaker 1>to margin, but they lived in Minnesota so you.

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<v Speaker 4>Couldn't buy it. Yeah. Crazy.

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<v Speaker 1>I hope that they don't to actually force him out

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<v Speaker 1>because I do think he's doing all the right. People

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<v Speaker 1>are leaving because of him, and I think that's a

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<v Speaker 1>good sign. If you go into just you know, if

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<v Speaker 1>you go into a bureaucracy, that's you know, just just

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<v Speaker 1>sclerotic and people are so upset they leave. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's a really good sign.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, often it is. You know, the person I trust

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<v Speaker 2>in this realm more than anyone is Jay Batcheria, the

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<v Speaker 2>director of the Nationalist super Health. I mean, I've had vacation,

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<v Speaker 2>I run a program here at Notre Dame, and we've

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<v Speaker 2>had him come speak a few times, including just a

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<v Speaker 2>few days before he was nominated for the head of

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<v Speaker 2>the NIH. And you know, he's a top scientist, he

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<v Speaker 2>has all the credentials, but he's intellectually, epistemically humble. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not afraid to say what he doesn't know, and

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<v Speaker 2>to my mind that gives him great credibility, both his

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence but his humility and courage.

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<v Speaker 1>Though at the same time along with the humility, remember

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<v Speaker 1>he was he probably came close to losing his entire

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<v Speaker 1>career over the Great Barrington Declaration.

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<v Speaker 2>And for people who don't know, he's a Stanford epidemiologist

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<v Speaker 2>PhD in economics. I mean, this guy is as credentialed

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<v Speaker 2>as anyone could be. And very early in COVID he said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>wait a second, and he did some studies that showed,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, COVID is our there's no possibility of zero COVID.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it was out. Everyone was going to get

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<v Speaker 2>it sooner or later. And he was saying these things

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<v Speaker 2>in February March. Remember we all shut down around mid March.

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<v Speaker 2>He was saying these things very early. Then published a

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<v Speaker 2>great Barrantine declaration, and his colleagues at Stanford just went

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<v Speaker 2>after him. It was terrible. I mean, so I told

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<v Speaker 2>him he needs to write a book. There needs to

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<v Speaker 2>be a movie made about him. He's a real hero.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I yeah, and his friends got at less

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<v Speaker 1>did write a book.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a very interesting one, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Both those guys. Yeah, deserves a lot of credit. So,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, he, you know, Jay Batcheria, I hope before

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<v Speaker 2>this term ends this administration and gets the Presidential Medal

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<v Speaker 2>of Freedom because he he really is a hero for

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<v Speaker 2>standing up for science but also freedom of speech.

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<v Speaker 1>And give Trump some credit here too, for being willing

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<v Speaker 1>to say, you know, I considered the operation Warp Speed

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<v Speaker 1>one of my great accomplishments, but hey, let's look at

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<v Speaker 1>it given credit.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, one of my one of my good

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<v Speaker 2>friends here at Notre Dame sent me that statement and said,

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<v Speaker 2>have you ever seen a president be willing to make

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<v Speaker 2>himself so vulnerable in a way. Well, let's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I did this. I think it worked. But let's let's

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<v Speaker 2>you know, they're presenting me with all sorts of evidence,

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<v Speaker 2>the President said, but they don't put it out in

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<v Speaker 2>the public. Let's put it out in the public.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean my response to my my colleague who sent

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<v Speaker 2>me that was this is why people love him.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually, yeah, yeah, because there are a lot of his

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<v Speaker 1>actual mega people who think that was his probably worst

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<v Speaker 1>thing he did. Many of them believe that he, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he was taking advice from people he thought he could trust, experts,

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<v Speaker 1>experts like Fauci and Deborah Burghs whatever name.

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<v Speaker 4>Is, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>He he he thought he was doing the right thing.

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<v Speaker 4>He's not a doctor, he has no medical training.

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<v Speaker 1>And so he looks back on it and says, let's

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<v Speaker 1>let's let's see what really happened there.

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<v Speaker 2>Good for let's see No. So, I mean, I think

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<v Speaker 2>when we're you know, the books are already starting to

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<v Speaker 2>come out on you know what we got wrong? And

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<v Speaker 2>Steve Mosito, very distinguished Princeton professor, very much man of

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<v Speaker 2>the left, has a new book out like we got

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<v Speaker 2>it all wrong? You know what, we the left got

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<v Speaker 2>it all wrong for, you know, very lefty Princeton professor

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<v Speaker 2>to say that. I mean, that's something else.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so tell me about your book. Excuse me,

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<v Speaker 1>your article I was thinking about. You showed me the book.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll come back to that. Tell me about so let

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<v Speaker 1>me first say, I'll show it because if Steve does,

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<v Speaker 1>this is uh an addition of national Affairs. It's I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if it's going to show very well, but yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a little blurry, but it includes an article by John,

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<v Speaker 1>an article by Steve and me, and an article by

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<v Speaker 1>Vincent Philip Munos, and we're gonna we're going to just yeah, no,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to discuss that one article today because without

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<v Speaker 1>John here, it's really awful that whenever we have to

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<v Speaker 1>discuss these deep philosophical issues, it works better to school

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<v Speaker 1>John when he's actually not in the room, because then

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<v Speaker 1>he doesn't lawyer us. But we'll give him, we'll give

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<v Speaker 1>him equal time. Tell us a little bit about the

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<v Speaker 1>the thesis.

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<v Speaker 4>Of your article.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, thanks for asking about it. It's called the

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<v Speaker 2>American Revolutions of seventeen seventy six revolutions plural and in

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<v Speaker 2>the article I try to explain sort of three core

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<v Speaker 2>elements of the Founding political philosophy, all of which are

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<v Speaker 2>encapsulated in seventeen seventy six. The first revolution is that

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<v Speaker 2>legitimate government is via consent. Legitimate government is via consent

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<v Speaker 2>because all men are created equal, all people are equal

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<v Speaker 2>by nature, No one has a right to rule. No person,

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<v Speaker 2>no class has a right to rule by nature. So

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<v Speaker 2>that's the first revolution, and we can come back to

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<v Speaker 2>that because that gets right to the part of the

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<v Speaker 2>theological political problem which I know you've been talking in

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<v Speaker 2>recent episodes. So the first revolution is legitimate government is

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<v Speaker 2>instituted via consent. Second revolution is the purposes of government

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<v Speaker 2>are to protect natural rights, not to save citizens souls,

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<v Speaker 2>protect their rights. The third revolution, connected to the first two,

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<v Speaker 2>especially the second, is that why do we limit government

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<v Speaker 2>to protecting rights, protecting natural rights and not saving souls?

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<v Speaker 2>And we limit government to those more limited ends to

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<v Speaker 2>leave room for church authority out of deference to and

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<v Speaker 2>respect for church authority. Perhaps this is the most novel

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<v Speaker 2>aspect of the article. I say, I try to connect

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<v Speaker 2>and I think this is the Founder's understanding. We limit

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<v Speaker 2>the authority of the state because the state doesn't have

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<v Speaker 2>authority over our souls. Who has authority over our souls? Well,

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves will to God and our churches. And so we

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<v Speaker 2>limit state authority out of deference in respect of religious authority. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that's the Third Revolution. So those are the government by consent,

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<v Speaker 2>limited government protecting natural rights. We protect natural rights and

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<v Speaker 2>due regard in deference to church authority, our obligations to

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<v Speaker 2>our creator. Okay, So the revolutions of seventeen seventy six.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So I would only argue that in your second

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<v Speaker 1>to revolutions, you don't go far enough. And this is

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<v Speaker 1>this is why I will say so. First of all,

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<v Speaker 1>the reason that that you don't have a government responsible

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<v Speaker 1>for saving souls is because I agree with you, not

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<v Speaker 1>so much out of deference to church authorities, but the

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<v Speaker 1>absolute belief that Jefferson says, I should have pulled it

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<v Speaker 1>up before this. You know that it makes one half

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<v Speaker 1>of the world fools and the other tyrants. Right, is

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<v Speaker 1>that that the phrase something like that if you try

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<v Speaker 1>to force beliefs on people, you can't do it because

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<v Speaker 1>Almighty God hath created the mind free. So from the

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<v Speaker 1>point of view of human nature, Madison calls the right

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<v Speaker 1>to conscience a natural right, and Jefferson certainly thought of it,

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<v Speaker 1>included it in the idea of the rights of the

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<v Speaker 1>natural rights. Among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit

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<v Speaker 1>of happiness. The reason that it's a revolution, and that

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<v Speaker 1>I agree with you about this, is it's the first

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<v Speaker 1>time it ever happened. It's I mean, all throughout ancient history,

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<v Speaker 1>the political authorities were the religious authorities and vice versa.

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<v Speaker 1>They were one and the same, and your piety was

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<v Speaker 1>the same as your patriotism. If you obeyed the laws,

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<v Speaker 1>you obeyed the gods. Christianity comes along and it's a

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<v Speaker 1>universal god, monotheistic religion, and you could have a loyalty

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<v Speaker 1>to God that might be different from your loyalty to

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<v Speaker 1>your political authority, to the political SoC and even see

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<v Speaker 1>some evidence of why that's problematic in the Gospel and

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<v Speaker 1>in some of the letters the epistles. But over the

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<v Speaker 1>years those things became joined. You had the Holy Roman Empire,

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<v Speaker 1>you had the King of England becoming the head of

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<v Speaker 1>the Church of England, where all of a sudden, now

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<v Speaker 1>you have religious wars. You have religious wars which define Europe,

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<v Speaker 1>and even in many cases of wider conflicts for a

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<v Speaker 1>thousand years at least, if not more. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>America was founded by people wanting to practice their own

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<v Speaker 1>religion here in America that they were prevented from practicing

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<v Speaker 1>over in Europe. So religion and politics is probably the

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<v Speaker 1>single most important conflict in human history.

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<v Speaker 2>I would say, yeah, I mean, you're getting right at

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<v Speaker 2>the heart of what we talk about limited government. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>conservatives confused limited government with small government. I mean, we

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<v Speaker 2>conservatives used to like small government, you know, lower taxes.

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<v Speaker 1>And I still do because the more government does, the

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<v Speaker 1>less liberty you have.

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<v Speaker 4>But yes, I get your point.

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<v Speaker 2>But limited government is there's certain things that the state

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<v Speaker 2>governing powers people who have the guns can't legitimately do.

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<v Speaker 2>An example I like to use is I'm in Indiana,

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<v Speaker 2>the state of Indiana, or the state of California, or wherever.

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<v Speaker 2>We license doctors, we license lawyers, we licensed cosmetologists, we

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<v Speaker 2>license everything. To get married, you have to get a license,

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<v Speaker 2>But preachers don't have to get a license the state

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<v Speaker 2>from the state from the state. The state of Indiana

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't issue preaching licenses. And why not. You can imagine

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<v Speaker 2>Governor Dowse some saying there's an epidemic of hate preaching,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we need the licensed preachers. And the correct

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<v Speaker 2>response was would be, you don't have authority to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't you the governor of California. You don't have

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<v Speaker 2>authority to determine who is and who is not a

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<v Speaker 2>legitimate preacher. Sure, that's what we mean by limited government.

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<v Speaker 2>There's certain things that the state can't do. You were

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<v Speaker 2>pointing to the foundation of that limit as a sort

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<v Speaker 2>of government and competence, or you know, government can't So

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<v Speaker 2>what Jefferson says, you know government, government can't make you

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<v Speaker 2>believe in the true religion. And I think that's true

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<v Speaker 2>to some extent. I mean, that's Locke's argument. Jefferson gets

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<v Speaker 2>it from Locke. It's the classic argument of the letter

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<v Speaker 2>concerning toleration. I mean that's true to some extent. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it actually overstates the case. Really, yeah, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>You mean, because you look at it, say, an is

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<v Speaker 1>a Muslim country where they're actually pretty successful at it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, you could do that or sat Augustine actually

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<v Speaker 2>writes about this and he says, experience taught me with

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<v Speaker 2>the Donatis. So these, uh, this is this heretical group.

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<v Speaker 2>He says, these people were confused in their in their

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<v Speaker 2>in their laziness, confused on an account of their laziness,

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<v Speaker 2>the accustom. They had certain beliefs which were wrong, religious

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<v Speaker 2>beliefs that were wrong, at least in Augustine's point of view.

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<v Speaker 2>And he said force can shake them out of their slumber.

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<v Speaker 2>So so it is true that compulsion alone can't can't

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<v Speaker 2>make you believe something.

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<v Speaker 4>But where does that compulsion come from? For Augustine, Well.

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<v Speaker 2>It's from the state, from those who have, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>those who have the guns. Force can make you consider arguments,

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<v Speaker 2>it can shake you up, it can end customs. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>Belief is a complicated thing, sure, suation of upbringing, and

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<v Speaker 2>force can affect those background conditions, if I can put

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<v Speaker 2>it in a sort of social scientific way. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>not that force is completely impotent. So I think Jefferson

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<v Speaker 2>and Locke maybe go to I mean, it's not what

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<v Speaker 2>they say isn't true. It's just not the whole story.

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<v Speaker 4>I get that.

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<v Speaker 1>I also think that it's in the rest and it's

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<v Speaker 1>by the way, it's half of the world hypocrites and

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<v Speaker 1>the other fools, not times hypocrites. And and of course

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<v Speaker 1>that is also an instrumental argument, because remember it goes

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<v Speaker 1>further and says that God asks us for our our faith,

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<v Speaker 1>our belief as a personal choice.

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<v Speaker 4>And so you are, in.

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<v Speaker 1>Fact legitimizing genuine religious belief.

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<v Speaker 4>That's not the right word. You are by keeping.

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<v Speaker 1>Government out of the business of saving souls. As you

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<v Speaker 1>put it, if my soul is saved, it's genuine. If

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<v Speaker 1>my soul is saved on account of laws and regulations

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<v Speaker 1>that will punish me for lack of faith, then it's

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<v Speaker 1>not all that genuine. And so he says, the true

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<v Speaker 1>religion prefers this freedom of conscience, freedom of.

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<v Speaker 4>Will to choose it.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think again, to a great extent, that's an

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<v Speaker 1>instrumental argument, because they want the separation of religious authority

420
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:48.359
<v Speaker 1>from political authority, because that gives human beings the greatest freedom.

421
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:53.160
<v Speaker 1>I think it's not that I want to leave this subtopic,

422
00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:57.480
<v Speaker 1>but it takes me to Steve asked us to consider

423
00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:01.039
<v Speaker 1>discussing this article that our good friend Glenn Elmers wrote.

424
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:03.240
<v Speaker 1>And I believe the name of the article is something

425
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:09.720
<v Speaker 1>like the Founders wanted Religion, but not I forget exactly.

426
00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:11.200
<v Speaker 2>What it is mister Wilson's article.

427
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I don't even know who that person is.

428
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:15.839
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, I say one thing on the last point, just yeah, sure,

429
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:18.799
<v Speaker 2>of course there's a prudential argument and then a more

430
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.160
<v Speaker 2>principled argument about religious freedom and separation of church and state.

431
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.880
<v Speaker 2>The prudential argument, as you were getting at, is, you know,

432
00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:29.960
<v Speaker 2>when we have the union of church and state. Religious peoples,

433
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:32.759
<v Speaker 2>my post liberal friends they say, well, if we had

434
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.279
<v Speaker 2>a closer connection between church and state, well, then church authorities,

435
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:40.079
<v Speaker 2>you know who we respect, or the churches we belong to,

436
00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:43.640
<v Speaker 2>they'll govern the political authorities, and then the political authority

437
00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:46.640
<v Speaker 2>can be used to, you know, to if not save souls,

438
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.400
<v Speaker 2>at least help form souls in the proper direction. But

439
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.799
<v Speaker 2>in fact, history teaches us the opposite is true. It's

440
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:58.039
<v Speaker 2>not for church authorities direct political authorities. It's that political

441
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:03.160
<v Speaker 2>authorities direct the church authorities. Yes, absolutely. At the time

442
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:06.079
<v Speaker 2>of the founding, the class of people who are most

443
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:12.880
<v Speaker 2>against the American Revolution the Anglican bishops. And why were

444
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:16.759
<v Speaker 2>the Anglican bishops the established clergy. Why were they against

445
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:22.400
<v Speaker 2>the revolution? Well because who was their patron? The power

446
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.000
<v Speaker 2>came from the crib who owned all the church property,

447
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:30.480
<v Speaker 2>who their appointment? They were government officials and Madison's argument.

448
00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Jefferson's argument. Part of the argument is just prudential. Look,

449
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:35.920
<v Speaker 2>when you have a union of church and state. You

450
00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:38.279
<v Speaker 2>can see this Catholic church in Germany right now, which

451
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:41.200
<v Speaker 2>gets its tax dollars, gets tax dollars from the state.

452
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:43.519
<v Speaker 2>When you have a union in church and state, the

453
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:45.759
<v Speaker 2>state always ended up controlling the church.

454
00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:48.559
<v Speaker 1>Let me just add one small point to that. Having

455
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.440
<v Speaker 1>lived in Germany and enjoying all of those actually not

456
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:55.400
<v Speaker 1>enjoying them because they didn't really apply to us. There

457
00:27:55.559 --> 00:28:02.759
<v Speaker 1>are more religious holidays in Germany that are federal national

458
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:07.519
<v Speaker 1>government sanctioned holidays. I can't even imagine how to get

459
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:09.279
<v Speaker 1>anything done, to be honest with you. I think there's

460
00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:10.640
<v Speaker 1>two a week or something like that.

461
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.319
<v Speaker 4>It seemed like. But the point was, with.

462
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:18.000
<v Speaker 1>All of that government sanctioning of religion and support for religion,

463
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:26.160
<v Speaker 1>the churches were empty. There is in fact no discernible

464
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:31.160
<v Speaker 1>religious community in Germany anymore. You know, my daughter was

465
00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:36.920
<v Speaker 1>confirmed in a twelve hundred cathedral from that it was

466
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.200
<v Speaker 1>built in the twelve hundreds, and it was the most

467
00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:43.519
<v Speaker 1>people because it was a bunch of military families there

468
00:28:43.720 --> 00:28:46.920
<v Speaker 1>that that church had seen in like ten years in

469
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:47.559
<v Speaker 1>a mass.

470
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:49.759
<v Speaker 4>You know, it's just which is.

471
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:53.319
<v Speaker 1>You know, that kind of proves the point that if

472
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:57.640
<v Speaker 1>the state gets involved in religion, it no longer leaves

473
00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:59.759
<v Speaker 1>it up to the individual to decide. And I think

474
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:04.519
<v Speaker 1>it underminds and cheapens the religious experience. But I don't

475
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:08.200
<v Speaker 1>think that was necessarily the founder's central goal. I do

476
00:29:08.279 --> 00:29:13.519
<v Speaker 1>believe it was. They believed it was necessary to separate

477
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:17.279
<v Speaker 1>the idea of church and state. And the way they

478
00:29:17.319 --> 00:29:20.359
<v Speaker 1>did that is in some ways it's brilliant. And I

479
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:24.319
<v Speaker 1>think it's all tied up in the phrase. We laughed

480
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:27.039
<v Speaker 1>about it last week because Claremont has hats that say

481
00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:31.960
<v Speaker 1>this nature and Nature's God. So for the first time

482
00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:39.079
<v Speaker 1>you've had a country founded on the idea that both

483
00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:46.759
<v Speaker 1>revelation and reason supported the notion of human equality and

484
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:51.079
<v Speaker 1>the need for government based upon consent. And my way

485
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:54.559
<v Speaker 1>of introducing that to students, and you saw that I

486
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:57.559
<v Speaker 1>wrote about it is I really do think that this

487
00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:01.400
<v Speaker 1>is sort of revolutionary in and of itself. When Jesus

488
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:06.799
<v Speaker 1>goes to the well and the he's by himself, as

489
00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:09.680
<v Speaker 1>does disciples have gone to get food or something, and

490
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:13.440
<v Speaker 1>the Samaritan woman comes up and he talks to her.

491
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:16.319
<v Speaker 1>We don't have a sense of what that means. We

492
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:20.599
<v Speaker 1>talk to anybody, but for a rabbi to talk to

493
00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:24.839
<v Speaker 1>a woman, first of all, an accompanied woman, second of

494
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:29.000
<v Speaker 1>all a Samaritan, not a Jewish woman. And third of all,

495
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:35.400
<v Speaker 1>it's you know, they make it so she's probably a prostitute,

496
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:39.119
<v Speaker 1>and he talks her like she's a human being. That

497
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:45.240
<v Speaker 1>to us, it's it's hard to fathom how revolutionary, how

498
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:50.519
<v Speaker 1>that single passage in the Bible was, but it's it's

499
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:53.640
<v Speaker 1>clear she and remember what happens. Then he says, you know,

500
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:55.519
<v Speaker 1>I know you're a sinner. You're living with a man

501
00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 1>who's not your husband. And he forgives her, and then

502
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:04.160
<v Speaker 1>she goes back to her Samaritan community and talks about

503
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:06.039
<v Speaker 1>and so for the first time, what you see is

504
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:10.000
<v Speaker 1>not only that salvation is not just for the Jews

505
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:15.519
<v Speaker 1>or just for men, or you know, or it's the

506
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:21.480
<v Speaker 1>opening the recognition by Jesus that all human beings are equal,

507
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.960
<v Speaker 1>and that notion of equality takes a long time, but

508
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:32.000
<v Speaker 1>in my opinion, is embalmed in the Declaration of Independence,

509
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:36.440
<v Speaker 1>but not based upon religious authority alone, based upon the

510
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.880
<v Speaker 1>idea you said at the beginning that human beings, by

511
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:41.279
<v Speaker 1>nature are not.

512
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:44.480
<v Speaker 4>Fitted with rulers and ruled. You.

513
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:47.680
<v Speaker 1>You can't tell by nature who is a ruler and

514
00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:50.839
<v Speaker 1>who was born to be ruled, and therefore.

515
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.200
<v Speaker 4>We are are our own natural rulers.

516
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.759
<v Speaker 1>That's to me, the biggest revolution of all of them

517
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:04.960
<v Speaker 1>is that religion and reason teaches us that human beings

518
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.839
<v Speaker 1>are fundamentally equal and the most important respect.

519
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's three interrelated ideas which you are articulated all

520
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:14.960
<v Speaker 2>of them. I mean, the first really comes from the

521
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:19.440
<v Speaker 2>Jewish scriptures. There's one God, a monotheism. You mentioned this earlier.

522
00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:23.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean that there's so in the ancient world and

523
00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:26.519
<v Speaker 2>the non Jewish world. I mean, you can see this

524
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:29.119
<v Speaker 2>in the Old Testament too. You know, when when you're

525
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:35.440
<v Speaker 2>when your country went to war, your gods were waging

526
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:39.200
<v Speaker 2>war against their gods. That is, it wasn't a world

527
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:42.920
<v Speaker 2>of monotheism. What Judaism brings to the world is there's

528
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.720
<v Speaker 2>the one God and he is the true God. That is,

529
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:48.079
<v Speaker 2>those other gods are not really gods, they're false gods.

530
00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:52.319
<v Speaker 2>So okay, that's the first. The second is there's one

531
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:56.680
<v Speaker 2>God and he's the god of everyone. We are all

532
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:02.240
<v Speaker 2>sons and daughters of the One True God. I mean

533
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:07.039
<v Speaker 2>that idea we don't appreciate. The left especially does not

534
00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:11.559
<v Speaker 2>appreciate how revolutionary that idea is. I mean, this is

535
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:16.240
<v Speaker 2>why we have what we call human rights slots. That's

536
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:19.359
<v Speaker 2>why we don't just we take prisoners of war. We

537
00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:24.640
<v Speaker 2>don't shoot them. You know, why do so? We're at war,

538
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:29.119
<v Speaker 2>they're in uniforms, the opponent is in uniforms. We capture them.

539
00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:34.400
<v Speaker 2>Why don't we just shoot them? Right? We house them,

540
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:39.519
<v Speaker 2>we feed them right right well, because look, they may

541
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:42.519
<v Speaker 2>be our enemies in battle, and it's legitimate to kill

542
00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:45.799
<v Speaker 2>them on the battlefield, but once we've detained them, taken

543
00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:48.559
<v Speaker 2>away their guns, once they can't harm us, they are

544
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:51.359
<v Speaker 2>still children of God.

545
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:55.920
<v Speaker 1>It's why my favorite Christmas song, I won't call it Carol,

546
00:33:56.519 --> 00:34:04.920
<v Speaker 1>is Snoopy's Christmas. To me, it's the perfect emblematic idea

547
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:09.360
<v Speaker 1>that our humanity uh and and the what Christmas means

548
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.760
<v Speaker 1>to humanity is even more important than uh, than than

549
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.519
<v Speaker 1>than enemies clashing exactly.

550
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:22.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean that that our enemies are still children, sons

551
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:26.480
<v Speaker 2>and daughters of God. That that is a as a

552
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:30.320
<v Speaker 2>revolutionary concept that Christianity brings, brings to the.

553
00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:34.119
<v Speaker 4>World and that Lincoln reminded us of and we use.

554
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:35.639
<v Speaker 2>The language of human dignity today.

555
00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:42.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, we're gonna get comments about that, but we're

556
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:43.119
<v Speaker 1>gonna leave that.

557
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:45.239
<v Speaker 4>I get what you're all going to say.

558
00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:50.440
<v Speaker 1>Human rights today doesn't necessarily mean exactly what what Phil

559
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:55.760
<v Speaker 1>has in mind here, but I understand what he means

560
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.320
<v Speaker 1>by that. It's the recognition of the natural rights of

561
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:00.000
<v Speaker 1>other human being.

562
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:03.320
<v Speaker 2>And we all have them, not just Americans, but they're

563
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:05.800
<v Speaker 2>natural rights, we all humans. And then the third idea,

564
00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:08.639
<v Speaker 2>which is to connect to the equality idea, is so

565
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:12.000
<v Speaker 2>there's one God, it's a god of all of us.

566
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.840
<v Speaker 2>But that God doesn't appoint political rulers for our political communities.

567
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:19.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we participate, you could say, in the divine

568
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.719
<v Speaker 2>governance of the world. I mean, I don't want to

569
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:28.880
<v Speaker 2>be flip about it, but God says, look, your social beings,

570
00:35:28.880 --> 00:35:32.119
<v Speaker 2>by nature, you need to live together, figure out how

571
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:37.079
<v Speaker 2>to live well using your mind. Right, I don't have

572
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:43.079
<v Speaker 2>to appoint rulers for you. You're equal. Right, form a community.

573
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:46.559
<v Speaker 2>Do it on the ground of equality.

574
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:48.800
<v Speaker 4>You're You're in the gospels.

575
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Give to Caesar, what is Caesar's So Caesar has a

576
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:56.039
<v Speaker 2>legitimate authority give to God. What is God's Caesar's authority

577
00:35:56.199 --> 00:35:59.440
<v Speaker 2>is not appointed directly by God. This particular ruler is

578
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:00.559
<v Speaker 2>not a pointed by God.

579
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:06.280
<v Speaker 1>But it took seventeen one hundred years for call it

580
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.679
<v Speaker 1>political states and political philosophers to.

581
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:09.599
<v Speaker 4>Figure that out.

582
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Because remember what ruled Europe for centuries was the notion

583
00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:17.719
<v Speaker 1>of the divine right of kings. It was the controlling

584
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.360
<v Speaker 1>philosophy of government, call it that theory of government before.

585
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Consent, a heresy that is convenient for those who want

586
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.079
<v Speaker 2>to have power or hold power to say, my power

587
00:36:33.079 --> 00:36:33.920
<v Speaker 2>comes from God.

588
00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:38.760
<v Speaker 1>A very powerful heresy, very powerful heresy, very powerful heresy.

589
00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:43.760
<v Speaker 1>And as Jefferson says, you know, we finally come to

590
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:46.199
<v Speaker 1>the point where we're no longer being ruled by monks

591
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:49.119
<v Speaker 1>and superstition ignorant, right.

592
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:52.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a dig at the Gallic Church, but

593
00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:58.000
<v Speaker 2>it is No church is perfect. So yes, you could

594
00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:00.519
<v Speaker 2>say that you cannot go all the way back to Erstutle,

595
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.840
<v Speaker 2>that you can go to other earlier thinkers who understand

596
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:07.079
<v Speaker 2>that there's a problem with the divine right of kings.

597
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:11.800
<v Speaker 2>But in terms of actual real politics, real governance, it's

598
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:16.079
<v Speaker 2>the great contribution of the American Founders to not only

599
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:20.239
<v Speaker 2>us as Americans, but to Western civilization to the world

600
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.559
<v Speaker 2>is the creation of a system of government that respects

601
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:29.920
<v Speaker 2>human equality, yes, and religious authority and religious liberty. And

602
00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:31.880
<v Speaker 2>I think this is the point you're driving at that

603
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:37.000
<v Speaker 2>the Founders in this sense solved the theological political problem.

604
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:42.239
<v Speaker 2>They advised an arrangement that they devised an understanding and

605
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:46.639
<v Speaker 2>then a political political institutions that both respect religious authority

606
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:51.360
<v Speaker 2>and legitimate and legitimate political authorities. And they showed how

607
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:57.079
<v Speaker 2>religious authority and political authority could coincide. That by limiting

608
00:37:57.239 --> 00:38:01.639
<v Speaker 2>political authority and saying that those who religious authorities don't

609
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.679
<v Speaker 2>get to govern on account of the religious character. Right

610
00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:09.039
<v Speaker 2>in a nutshell, that's how you solve the theological political problem.

611
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:13.480
<v Speaker 2>I've really simplified here, let's be honest, So John will

612
00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:18.519
<v Speaker 2>hopefully understand this. But that's the genius of the American Founding.

613
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:23.760
<v Speaker 1>One more addition to that, and that is it's very important.

614
00:38:24.119 --> 00:38:26.519
<v Speaker 1>I thought of it when you were talking about human rights.

615
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:32.039
<v Speaker 1>It's also necessary, as the first paragraph of the Declaration

616
00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:36.199
<v Speaker 1>tells us that that one people have to come together

617
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:41.559
<v Speaker 1>in recognition of those natural rights, with the goal of

618
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:44.880
<v Speaker 1>securing those natural rights. And it is so that's why

619
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:47.840
<v Speaker 1>I sort of hesitate a little at the notion of

620
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:51.000
<v Speaker 1>calling them human rights, because human rights implies to me

621
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:55.119
<v Speaker 1>today the notion of a un or global global government.

622
00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:57.639
<v Speaker 1>It can't be done by global governments. It cannot be

623
00:38:57.719 --> 00:39:01.960
<v Speaker 1>done in a way that does not allow for the

624
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:06.360
<v Speaker 1>sovereignty of the people to exercise their consent on a

625
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:09.440
<v Speaker 1>continuous basis in some way. And that consent is a

626
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.440
<v Speaker 1>mutual consent with each other, it is that's the important part.

627
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:18.440
<v Speaker 1>It's consent with your fellow human beings inside of what

628
00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:22.039
<v Speaker 1>you create as a political community. And then you choose

629
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.599
<v Speaker 1>a government to secure your natural rights. And never forget

630
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:32.360
<v Speaker 1>the Aristotilian ends of safety and happiness. The government is

631
00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:35.400
<v Speaker 1>there to secure your natural rights, to conduce to your

632
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:38.920
<v Speaker 1>safety and happiness, which of course are the alpha and

633
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:45.239
<v Speaker 1>omega of Aristotle's political ends political tilos. So I want

634
00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:48.320
<v Speaker 1>to move that discussion then to a discussion of how

635
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:52.559
<v Speaker 1>that informs our constitution, because I do think that that

636
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:57.800
<v Speaker 1>question may be the most important question not only between

637
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:01.519
<v Speaker 1>the left and the right today, but also between elements

638
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:05.400
<v Speaker 1>of the right itself. Even my good friend John claims

639
00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:09.840
<v Speaker 1>that our Constitution is not based upon these natural rights ideas.

640
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:10.800
<v Speaker 4>He calls it the.

641
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:14.039
<v Speaker 1>Natural law, and he says the natural law in seventeen

642
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:16.639
<v Speaker 1>seventy six is not the same as it was when

643
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:19.360
<v Speaker 1>the fourteenth Amendment was passed. And you know, I think

644
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.559
<v Speaker 1>sometimes he just does that to tweak me, but he

645
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:29.800
<v Speaker 1>does say it. Does our constitution have a basis that

646
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:36.519
<v Speaker 1>is greater than simply the agreement the consent that you know,

647
00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:44.360
<v Speaker 1>the method of consent that the constitutional Convention decided, you know,

648
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:46.679
<v Speaker 1>or send it to the people, not to the states,

649
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:49.599
<v Speaker 1>send it to the people in ratifying conventions after elections

650
00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.519
<v Speaker 1>in their state. Does it have a greater force? Are

651
00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:54.719
<v Speaker 1>there more principles?

652
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:55.239
<v Speaker 4>Are there?

653
00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:59.559
<v Speaker 1>Is there a natural law basis to the Constitution that

654
00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:04.159
<v Speaker 1>is how would you say operative? I hate to use

655
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:06.039
<v Speaker 1>that term, but I think you know what I mean. Ken,

656
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:11.840
<v Speaker 1>Our politicians are elected officials, and our judges turned to

657
00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:16.320
<v Speaker 1>that natural law basis of the Constitution to inform them

658
00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:19.679
<v Speaker 1>on how to interpret the provisions of the Constitution in

659
00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:23.360
<v Speaker 1>a meaningful practical way. I think that's the biggest question, right.

660
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:25.760
<v Speaker 2>So there are two issues here, and I think it's

661
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:30.480
<v Speaker 2>really important to at least analytically keep them separate. The

662
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:35.119
<v Speaker 2>first issue is what are the purpose? Why do we

663
00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.599
<v Speaker 2>have the constitution? We do? Are the what are its purposes?

664
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:41.639
<v Speaker 2>What are its ends? Why did the founders design it

665
00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:47.000
<v Speaker 2>as they did? And here positivists and sometimes John who

666
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.440
<v Speaker 2>likes to flirt with positivism, says he thinks he is

667
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:51.559
<v Speaker 2>a positive. He's not really, but he thinks he is.

668
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:55.519
<v Speaker 2>He says, Look, it's simply a matter of will. That's

669
00:41:55.559 --> 00:42:00.440
<v Speaker 2>the constitution they gave us, and the people ratify, and

670
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.039
<v Speaker 2>so it's really the people's will. We have the constitution

671
00:42:04.159 --> 00:42:07.559
<v Speaker 2>we have simply because that's the constitution we gave ourselves.

672
00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:14.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's right. It's true the necessary condition

673
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:17.760
<v Speaker 2>of authority is that it was ratified by the people.

674
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.719
<v Speaker 2>But that's not sufficient because the people could make a

675
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:25.199
<v Speaker 2>very bad constitution. The purpose of our constitution? Let me

676
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:30.119
<v Speaker 2>take one constitutional provision, the taking's clause. Government can't take

677
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:34.639
<v Speaker 2>your property except for public use and just compensation. Why

678
00:42:34.719 --> 00:42:38.760
<v Speaker 2>is that provision in the constitution. We's in the constitution

679
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:41.719
<v Speaker 2>because the founder said the purpose of the constitution is

680
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:45.199
<v Speaker 2>to protect our natural rights, including our right to property.

681
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.400
<v Speaker 2>The problem of demand, and I especially yeah, you know,

682
00:42:49.440 --> 00:42:52.400
<v Speaker 2>the fundamental problem of popular government or democracy is the

683
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:57.599
<v Speaker 2>many taking the property of thew And that's wrong. It's

684
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:02.480
<v Speaker 2>wrong even if it's done lawfully. You can't just the many.

685
00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Can't just plunder the few. The fu shouldn't plunder the many.

686
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:09.199
<v Speaker 2>But why do we have a right to property, a

687
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:13.440
<v Speaker 2>natural right to property? Well, because if I pick the apple,

688
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:17.199
<v Speaker 2>it's mine. No one owns the apple tree I'm out there.

689
00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:20.159
<v Speaker 2>If I'm out in the ocean and I cast a

690
00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:23.440
<v Speaker 2>line and catch a fish, it's mine. Why do I

691
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.760
<v Speaker 2>own my property? Why do I own my labor? But

692
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:29.760
<v Speaker 2>why do I get the apple? Who made that rule?

693
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:36.880
<v Speaker 2>That I own my own labor? That's by nature. That's

694
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:38.840
<v Speaker 2>what it means to be a person to own your

695
00:43:38.840 --> 00:43:43.159
<v Speaker 2>own labor. Slaves are people who don't own their own labor.

696
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Slavery is wrong. Now those moral pronouncements I just made

697
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.599
<v Speaker 2>that the apple, if I pick it is mine. That

698
00:43:53.800 --> 00:43:57.679
<v Speaker 2>slavery is wrong. If I enslave someone, the slave picks

699
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:02.360
<v Speaker 2>the apple, I take it. Those those moral pronouncements are

700
00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:05.360
<v Speaker 2>not because of some positive law we made. Those are

701
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:06.679
<v Speaker 2>that is the natural law.

702
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:11.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So here's I'll be John for a second. Yeah,

703
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.679
<v Speaker 1>he just says that that's a cost benefit. The reason

704
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:20.280
<v Speaker 1>that we protect property is because it leads to economic prosperity,

705
00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:21.800
<v Speaker 1>which it does.

706
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:24.079
<v Speaker 2>It's true it does, but that's not the reason we

707
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:29.719
<v Speaker 2>protected The reason why we we think slavery is wrong

708
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:34.000
<v Speaker 2>is not because it's inefficient. It's because, no, the slaves

709
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:40.360
<v Speaker 2>own their labor too. I mean, Abraham Lincoln says, you work,

710
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:45.400
<v Speaker 2>I eat is the root logic of despotism.

711
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:49.320
<v Speaker 4>Yep. No different from kings or tyrants in the past.

712
00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so I want to read to you really quickly.

713
00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:55.400
<v Speaker 1>This was a story. But you said you didn't have

714
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:58.599
<v Speaker 1>time to pay too much attention to the headlines. Senator

715
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:07.719
<v Speaker 1>Kine from Virginia when he was questioning a nominee to

716
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:12.119
<v Speaker 1>actually the nominee was to I don't even Assistant Secretary

717
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:17.880
<v Speaker 1>of State and the Riley Barnes in his opening his

718
00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:21.559
<v Speaker 1>I guess opening statement, Riley Barnes says, we are a

719
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:25.840
<v Speaker 1>nation founded on a powerful principle, and that powerful principle

720
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:28.800
<v Speaker 1>is that all men are created equal because our rights

721
00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:32.280
<v Speaker 1>come from God, our creator, not from our laws, not

722
00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:35.880
<v Speaker 1>from our government. He warned that when rights are untothered

723
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:41.920
<v Speaker 1>from that principle, they can be easily manipulated by authoritarians

724
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:44.280
<v Speaker 1>and bad actors. OK.

725
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:45.800
<v Speaker 4>You and I would agree with that.

726
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:51.039
<v Speaker 1>I think it's true simply speaking, and that's a secondary issue,

727
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:55.000
<v Speaker 1>that it's problematic if you don't abide by that principle.

728
00:45:55.880 --> 00:45:58.079
<v Speaker 4>But Cain said that the.

729
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:03.800
<v Speaker 1>Notion was extremely tru bling, that it should make Americans very,

730
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:08.239
<v Speaker 1>very nervous, because the notion that rights don't come from

731
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:11.400
<v Speaker 1>laws and don't come from the government, but come from

732
00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:18.840
<v Speaker 1>the creator. That's what the Iranian government believes.

733
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:22.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean, has he not read the Declaration of Independence

734
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:26.599
<v Speaker 2>by our creator? Our rights are endowed by our creator.

735
00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:32.679
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's but it's an embarrassment that the United

736
00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:37.360
<v Speaker 2>States senator would say that. I mean he's directly contradicting

737
00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:39.400
<v Speaker 2>the Declaration of Independence.

738
00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:43.639
<v Speaker 1>Of course, But is it not emblematic or symptomatic of

739
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:47.719
<v Speaker 1>the the rot in our government and amongst the left

740
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:51.000
<v Speaker 1>and left and so forth that he could say that

741
00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:52.840
<v Speaker 1>and not be laughed off the stage?

742
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:56.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, because he actually believe. It's not just ignorance, it's

743
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.920
<v Speaker 2>what he actually believes. I mean, it's the modern left.

744
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:03.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is intellectually you go back to Herbert

745
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:06.519
<v Speaker 2>Crowley and Woodrow Wilson. They actually believe no rights are

746
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:10.199
<v Speaker 2>a product of historical development. They're a product of the state.

747
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:12.679
<v Speaker 2>You only have property rights. To go back to our

748
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:15.239
<v Speaker 2>own example, you only get the apple because we made

749
00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:18.199
<v Speaker 2>laws to say that you get the apple. That your

750
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:21.760
<v Speaker 2>property rights are a product of the state. They're granted

751
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:25.000
<v Speaker 2>by the state, and then they're readjusted over time, right

752
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:32.159
<v Speaker 2>by whatever the state decides as best for human development. Sure,

753
00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:36.880
<v Speaker 2>that is the modern conception, the modern progressive conception of government.

754
00:47:36.920 --> 00:47:40.760
<v Speaker 2>So Senator Kane, you know, we say it's laughable because

755
00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:44.280
<v Speaker 2>it's against the Declaration of Independence, which he obviously is

756
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:47.599
<v Speaker 2>unaware of, but he's actually speaking of truth. He actually

757
00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:50.159
<v Speaker 2>thinks rights come from the state.

758
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:54.320
<v Speaker 1>There's I think a secondary issue there too, and that

759
00:47:54.480 --> 00:48:00.119
<v Speaker 1>is this is my bias against the left. For all

760
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:03.239
<v Speaker 1>of their talk about all quality and equity, what it

761
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:07.400
<v Speaker 1>really means is if it's God who gives us our rights,

762
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:11.880
<v Speaker 1>or call it even nature, nature being some unchanging principle,

763
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:16.000
<v Speaker 1>then of course you're limited as a politician, and you're

764
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:18.679
<v Speaker 1>just not just a servant of God but a servant

765
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:23.159
<v Speaker 1>of the people. That's the whole idea of American political

766
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:27.360
<v Speaker 1>power that is consistent with the Constitution that our representatives

767
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:30.800
<v Speaker 1>are senators, our president, even though our judges are our

768
00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:35.800
<v Speaker 1>servants who have been given the sacred responsibility of governing

769
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:39.159
<v Speaker 1>the American people. But of course Kine doesn't think of

770
00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:42.679
<v Speaker 1>himself that way, not even I mean, not even close.

771
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:45.639
<v Speaker 1>He thinks that, you know, if power comes from God,

772
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:47.840
<v Speaker 1>it means I don't have power.

773
00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:50.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And if rights come from the government, he is

774
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:52.599
<v Speaker 2>the bestower rights.

775
00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:58.400
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, and so there's an incredible arrogance about this,

776
00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:03.239
<v Speaker 1>but it's very because of course, then the other thing

777
00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:05.599
<v Speaker 1>that that the left likes to do, in my opinion,

778
00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:09.760
<v Speaker 1>that once you no longer believe that rights come from

779
00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:13.840
<v Speaker 1>God or from nature, from from a rational understanding of

780
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:18.000
<v Speaker 1>human nature, then you can make rights and be anything

781
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:20.440
<v Speaker 1>you want them to be. Like you talked about back

782
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.440
<v Speaker 1>back somehow, uh, turning us back to a place where

783
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:26.599
<v Speaker 1>the many can take away the property of.

784
00:49:26.599 --> 00:49:28.079
<v Speaker 4>The rich or vice versa.

785
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Or turning us to a place where you can say,

786
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:35.039
<v Speaker 1>there's a right to health care, a right to uh,

787
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:39.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, a right to a fair and appropriate public education,

788
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:41.840
<v Speaker 1>a right here's.

789
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:43.800
<v Speaker 2>Your gender, right to do whatever you want. I mean

790
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:48.000
<v Speaker 2>that there's no nature, yes, right, there's nothing stable. There's

791
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:52.239
<v Speaker 2>nothing fixed, there's nothing that limits the power of the government.

792
00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:54.679
<v Speaker 2>To get back to our earlier point or first point

793
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:57.400
<v Speaker 2>was one of the revolutions was we limit the power

794
00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.519
<v Speaker 2>of the state. But if there are no natural rights,

795
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:07.079
<v Speaker 2>it emancipates the state. And that's really what Tim Kain thinks.

796
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.639
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, and you know the idea that he didn't

797
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:13.760
<v Speaker 1>lose his seat, that he wasn't the whole Senate didn't

798
00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:17.239
<v Speaker 1>censor him for saying those remarks. Again, I think it's

799
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:20.559
<v Speaker 1>a rot at the center of our government these days,

800
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:25.760
<v Speaker 1>and I think, pardon me, that, excuse me, I'm so sorry.

801
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:28.199
<v Speaker 1>That's one of the things to go back to the

802
00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:31.320
<v Speaker 1>very beginning of our discussion that Civitas and some of

803
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:36.480
<v Speaker 1>these other civic education are trying to reintroduce.

804
00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:37.519
<v Speaker 2>I am.

805
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:42.440
<v Speaker 1>Optimistic, not just because there are places like Civitas, but

806
00:50:42.519 --> 00:50:47.239
<v Speaker 1>also because I believe that Trump's success. I don't think

807
00:50:47.280 --> 00:50:49.679
<v Speaker 1>Trump is perfect. Don't anybody accuse me of that. But

808
00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:52.760
<v Speaker 1>Trump's success is that there's a lot more common sense

809
00:50:53.239 --> 00:50:57.719
<v Speaker 1>out there in America that understands what Tim Kaine does

810
00:50:57.760 --> 00:50:58.679
<v Speaker 1>not understand.

811
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.079
<v Speaker 2>I think every day, everyday Americans are still a very sensible.

812
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:06.320
<v Speaker 4>Bunch, and they may not understand it the way we do.

813
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:09.639
<v Speaker 2>But we should get back to our point, because there's

814
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:13.760
<v Speaker 2>the first point you asked about natural rights and constitutional government.

815
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.440
<v Speaker 2>Our first point was that there is a moral foundation

816
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:20.639
<v Speaker 2>in nature, Nature and Nature's God and human rights and

817
00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:23.920
<v Speaker 2>natural rights that our constitution is meant to protect. So

818
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.800
<v Speaker 2>there's natural rights. The fact that I get to own

819
00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:30.719
<v Speaker 2>my own labor, that's a natural right. The natural right

820
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:33.360
<v Speaker 2>of property, or natural right to acquire property, that's part

821
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:36.079
<v Speaker 2>of the natural law. The natural law is just to

822
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:39.159
<v Speaker 2>say what's reasonable. It's not reasonable that if I pick

823
00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:42.280
<v Speaker 2>the apple you can take it from me. Right, you

824
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:46.480
<v Speaker 2>can't take my property. We all understand that right, and

825
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:49.639
<v Speaker 2>that's that's the natural law. We create a constitution to

826
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:53.599
<v Speaker 2>protect our natural rights. So the natural law, the natural

827
00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:58.519
<v Speaker 2>rights are inform the constitution. Now John thinks he makes

828
00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:00.519
<v Speaker 2>a quick jump. He says, if you belie believe that,

829
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:04.320
<v Speaker 2>then a judge can always invoke the natural law to

830
00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:08.519
<v Speaker 2>adjudicate a case. And he says, well, but different people

831
00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:11.440
<v Speaker 2>disagree about what the natural law is. Therefore you're just

832
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:18.719
<v Speaker 2>emancipating judges to be policymakers, to be philosopher kings. That's

833
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:23.519
<v Speaker 2>too quick of a jump. Okay, So the constitution is

834
00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:27.039
<v Speaker 2>informed by natural law. Again, natural rights are just part

835
00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:30.519
<v Speaker 2>of the natural law. Right. The natural law is simply

836
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:32.400
<v Speaker 2>the law of natural justice.

837
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:37.719
<v Speaker 4>We create there on the hearts of men according to luck.

838
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:45.400
<v Speaker 2>And the gospels, and the and the and the we

839
00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:53.679
<v Speaker 2>create a constitution to secure justice. The legislative power is

840
00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:56.320
<v Speaker 2>the body. The body that makes the law is to

841
00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:59.679
<v Speaker 2>make laws, to make good, positive laws for the community

842
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:05.199
<v Speaker 2>that determine or effectuate the natural law. So we have

843
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:09.639
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of laws to regulate property, to protect property right.

844
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:12.840
<v Speaker 2>We divide up the land into parcels. That's all done

845
00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:17.440
<v Speaker 2>by the legislature so people can own it. So law makers,

846
00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:20.440
<v Speaker 2>when they're passing laws, how do we know if a

847
00:53:20.519 --> 00:53:23.039
<v Speaker 2>law is good or bad? What's the standard? I mean,

848
00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:26.039
<v Speaker 2>they're legal because they're laws as long as they're passed

849
00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:28.360
<v Speaker 2>according to the due procedures. But we can say some

850
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:31.800
<v Speaker 2>laws are good, some laws are bad. Slavery was legal

851
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:34.960
<v Speaker 2>in the Southern States, but it was a bad law.

852
00:53:35.480 --> 00:53:37.639
<v Speaker 2>Why can we say it's a bad law, Well, because

853
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:42.920
<v Speaker 2>it's against the natural law. So the political body, the

854
00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:48.400
<v Speaker 2>institution that's most responsible for articulating and then instantiating the

855
00:53:48.519 --> 00:53:53.159
<v Speaker 2>natural law for our political community is the legislature through

856
00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:57.760
<v Speaker 2>passing positive laws. So the civil law, when it's good,

857
00:53:57.840 --> 00:54:00.840
<v Speaker 2>reflects the natural law. This is exactly what Martin Luther

858
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:02.480
<v Speaker 2>King says, by the way, in his letter from the

859
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:08.199
<v Speaker 2>Birmingham Jail, he says, look segregation right, the dividing people

860
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:12.079
<v Speaker 2>by race by law, saying you know, no blacks can

861
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:15.599
<v Speaker 2>be at the public in the public schools, or the

862
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:17.760
<v Speaker 2>public swimming pool, or if you own a business, you

863
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:21.960
<v Speaker 2>must segregate on the race. Those are laws. They're just

864
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:26.920
<v Speaker 2>deficient laws. They're unjust laws. They're immoral laws because the

865
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:30.159
<v Speaker 2>positive law is not consistent with the natural law, and

866
00:54:30.199 --> 00:54:33.920
<v Speaker 2>therefore those laws should be overturned. They should be sorry,

867
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:37.599
<v Speaker 2>those laws should be rescinded. As King's argument, Okay, now

868
00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:40.360
<v Speaker 2>here's the question. If you're a judge and you have

869
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:42.760
<v Speaker 2>to say the law of segregation or the law of slavery,

870
00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:47.239
<v Speaker 2>what's your authority. The law is the positive laws against

871
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:53.280
<v Speaker 2>the natural law. But the institution that's responsible for instantiating

872
00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:57.880
<v Speaker 2>the natural law is the legislature. So here's where I

873
00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:02.039
<v Speaker 2>actually agree with John. It's not the role of judges

874
00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:06.480
<v Speaker 2>to overturn the positive law into the in light of

875
00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:10.159
<v Speaker 2>the natural law. The role of the judge in our

876
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:14.639
<v Speaker 2>system is to articulate in a case by case basis,

877
00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:19.599
<v Speaker 2>what the positive law is. That's the role of the judge,

878
00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:24.280
<v Speaker 2>simplifying a little bit, but it's to interpret the constitution.

879
00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:29.920
<v Speaker 2>The Constitution is a positive law, so the role of

880
00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:33.079
<v Speaker 2>the judge is not to go over the positive law

881
00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:37.679
<v Speaker 2>the Constitution to the natural law to strike down. That's

882
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:39.960
<v Speaker 2>just not the role of the judge. So you can

883
00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:44.719
<v Speaker 2>have both a judiciary that understands its role is limited

884
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:49.559
<v Speaker 2>to articulating the meaning of the Constitution and say the

885
00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Constitution is a product of the natural law. Those are

886
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:57.519
<v Speaker 2>not incompatible positions. Okay, now one.

887
00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:00.239
<v Speaker 1>Can't bring that up at the end of the podcast.

888
00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:03.199
<v Speaker 4>I'm sorry, Phil, that's unfair.

889
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:04.440
<v Speaker 1>Go ahead.

890
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:08.719
<v Speaker 2>One refinement. Part of the positive law, part of the

891
00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:15.159
<v Speaker 2>Constitution are natural law principles, so the freedom of speech

892
00:56:15.280 --> 00:56:19.039
<v Speaker 2>or the free exercise of religion. So you're judge and

893
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:21.599
<v Speaker 2>you say, well, the First Amendment says Congress can't pass

894
00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:23.639
<v Speaker 2>a law a bridging the freedom of speech, Well, what

895
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:28.239
<v Speaker 2>is the freedom of speech? That text, that constitutional text

896
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:32.440
<v Speaker 2>reflects a natural law principle. The natural law principle is

897
00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:37.960
<v Speaker 2>people have a right to say things that are reasonable,

898
00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:41.440
<v Speaker 2>and they should not be punished for saying things that

899
00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:47.440
<v Speaker 2>are reasonable. But libel, saying false things, Maliciously saying false

900
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:52.719
<v Speaker 2>things about something someone is not reasonable. You can't destroy

901
00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:55.920
<v Speaker 2>someone's reputation that's actually a real harm to them. So

902
00:56:56.119 --> 00:57:00.199
<v Speaker 2>libel is not part of the freedom of speech. So

903
00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:03.760
<v Speaker 2>a judge in interpreting the positive law the freedom of

904
00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:07.079
<v Speaker 2>speech the First Amendment. When a judge is interpreting the

905
00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:11.280
<v Speaker 2>First Amendment, to interpret it well, according to the text,

906
00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:14.239
<v Speaker 2>you're going to have to understand the natural law principles

907
00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:17.639
<v Speaker 2>that inform the text. That's why a judge can say

908
00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:21.599
<v Speaker 2>libel is not part of freedom of speech. Publishing pornographic

909
00:57:21.639 --> 00:57:23.920
<v Speaker 2>images is not part of the freedom of the press.

910
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:28.360
<v Speaker 2>So it well, it's true that the role of the

911
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:32.239
<v Speaker 2>judge is only to interpret the positive law. To interpret

912
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:37.199
<v Speaker 2>the positive law requires knowledge of natural law principles, because

913
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:40.800
<v Speaker 2>our positive law is informed by the natural law.

914
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:46.119
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and I would love to carry on with this

915
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:50.639
<v Speaker 1>conversation quite a bit more because it deserves more discussion,

916
00:57:50.760 --> 00:57:54.079
<v Speaker 1>but unfortunately, not only do you have to be someplace

917
00:57:54.199 --> 00:57:56.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm to understand, but we are out of time. So

918
00:57:57.159 --> 00:58:00.679
<v Speaker 1>I thank you very much for joining us joining me

919
00:58:01.239 --> 00:58:03.440
<v Speaker 1>today on the three Whiskey Happy Hour. By the way, folks,

920
00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:05.079
<v Speaker 1>I have to tell you that we didn't talk about

921
00:58:05.079 --> 00:58:08.599
<v Speaker 1>whiskey because it's actually we started at six fifteen am

922
00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:13.920
<v Speaker 1>Pacific time. It's a little early for me because itself.

923
00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:21.719
<v Speaker 1>I do have my eighteen twelve commemorative death Wish coffee cups,

924
00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:24.480
<v Speaker 1>so I guess that'll have to do for this week.

925
00:58:24.519 --> 00:58:28.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna throw a few really quick Babylon bees because

926
00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:29.920
<v Speaker 1>we didn't get to some of the things we were

927
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:32.519
<v Speaker 1>going to discuss, because you know, that's how it always goes.

928
00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:34.039
<v Speaker 4>But let me.

929
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:38.760
<v Speaker 1>Start with report Chicago shootings are down. As the official

930
00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:43.719
<v Speaker 1>guy who keeps track of all the shootings got shot.

931
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:50.280
<v Speaker 1>English Bobby's raced past five stabbings to tackle offensive social

932
00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:52.320
<v Speaker 1>media poster man.

933
00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:53.440
<v Speaker 4>I don't know.

934
00:58:54.079 --> 00:58:56.360
<v Speaker 2>It's really the corruption of the West right there.

935
00:58:57.280 --> 00:59:03.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean they're pushing back. There's obviously it's similar

936
00:59:03.079 --> 00:59:06.079
<v Speaker 1>I think in Great Britain, parts of you know, Scotland

937
00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:11.119
<v Speaker 1>and Ireland, where the middle class, the lower middle class,

938
00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:14.679
<v Speaker 1>the heartland people, if they have them there, they're a

939
00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:17.400
<v Speaker 1>lot smarter. They have a lot more common sense than

940
00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:20.960
<v Speaker 1>their leaders. Do that. You know that gives me a

941
00:59:20.960 --> 00:59:24.119
<v Speaker 1>lot of hope. It's why I tend to flock with

942
00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:28.800
<v Speaker 1>them rather than my elites. Sorry, I know that's not

943
00:59:28.880 --> 00:59:33.280
<v Speaker 1>very nice. Newsome announces he is anti crime until the

944
00:59:33.320 --> 00:59:40.599
<v Speaker 1>next election. Kamala Harris last scene fleeing dozens of international

945
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:47.599
<v Speaker 1>assassins after Trump counsels her secret Service protection. Just covering

946
00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:51.880
<v Speaker 1>all those headlines we didn't get to Russia, Ukraine reached

947
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:54.199
<v Speaker 1>new type of truth where they just keep bombing each

948
00:59:54.280 --> 01:00:01.960
<v Speaker 1>other and finally study finds women in denteds to make

949
01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:06.960
<v Speaker 1>other women look stupid. You won't appreciate that, but I do,

950
01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:10.639
<v Speaker 1>all right, Phil, Hey, you want to take us out?

951
01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, I suppose I'm supposed to say, always drink your

952
01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:18.639
<v Speaker 2>whiskey meat, but I actually preferred on the rocks.

953
01:00:19.239 --> 01:00:24.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh heresy, Thank you, Phil. I hope to see you

954
01:00:24.480 --> 01:00:27.159
<v Speaker 1>on here again soon because John's gonna want a piece

955
01:00:27.159 --> 01:01:23.760
<v Speaker 1>of you. Have a great week, everyone.

956
01:00:58.159 --> 01:01:01.440
<v Speaker 2>Ricochet join the conversation.