WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:18.559 Coming to you from the dining room table at East 2 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:23.239 Barbary Lane. Welcome to a special episode a Full Circle 3 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:27.640 the Podcast. I am your host, Martha Madrigal, and. 4 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:29.320 I am your host Charles Tyson Jr. 5 00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:35.439 Our guest today is becoming one of my favorite writers, 6 00:00:35.560 --> 00:00:39.159 just in terms of clarity and the message that he sends. 7 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:44.920 Doctor Gregory King holds his doctorate an inter Professional Leadership 8 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:49.280 from ken State University, an MFA and Choreographic Practice and 9 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:53.359 Theory from Southern Methodist University, a certification in Arts and 10 00:00:53.399 --> 00:00:57.679 Culture Strategy from the University of Pennsylvania School of Good 11 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:01.640 Policy and Practice, and I'm going to point out for 12 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:07.120 purposes of this discussion. He also spent seven years on 13 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:11.719 Broadway and The Lion King. He is currently the director 14 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:16.519 of Education and Research at Support Black Theater in Los Angeles. 15 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:21.439 Please welcome to the Full Circle Table, Doctor Gregory King. 16 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:27.000 Hello there. Do we have many applauses like hands capping 17 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:32.840 or something we can do that, Charles, Martha. 18 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:36.640 I just want to get it on the record because 19 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:39.799 I talked about it in our last episode. We had 20 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:44.159 tickets to go see Cats the Gelica Ball. Charles has 21 00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:48.159 wanted to see this show since we heard about it 22 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:49.920 in pre production. 23 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:51.920 Right, and I was just like, oh my goodness, there 24 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:55.640 is going to be a version of Cats that is 25 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:00.000 like set against the backdrop of ballroom. I might add 26 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:05.159 actually like Cats, right, And you know, everyone who we 27 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:08.919 knew was saying, this is just something you've never seen. 28 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:11.680 This is brilliant. This takes this musical we all love 29 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:16.759 to hate and turns it into something special. And then 30 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:21.800 the announcement and it had been extended into January. You know, 31 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:22.639 it was doing. 32 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:24.199 Well, which made perfect sense to me. 33 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:28.280 What three Tony Awards, I think? And then you know 34 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:31.960 the news comes through. August eighth is the last performance, 35 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.680 and a lot of white folks have things to say 36 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:40.879 about this, but you wrote a brilliant piece. I read it. 37 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:44.240 I said to Charles, this is where we need to talk. 38 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:50.199 This is the conversation that needs to be had. And 39 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.560 I'm just thrilled that you made the time to talk 40 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:57.400 to us about this whole thing. So hey, I'm gonna 41 00:02:57.400 --> 00:02:57.800 shut up. 42 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:00.639 No, this is great, and thank you. Thank you for 43 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.360 the email, Charles, Thank you for inviting me to share 44 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:08.240 your space. Thank you for reading my work and engaging 45 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:13.479 with it in such a profound way. I think language matters. 46 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.520 I think words are important. They shape your thoughts, I believe, 47 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:21.360 and they can have that impact. And I want to 48 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:23.759 share the story with how I became a writer. What 49 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:27.360 drew me to this idea of using words to tell stories. 50 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:31.400 I was in grad school at SMU as you as 51 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:34.560 you laid out earlier, and I wasn't dance history. It 52 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:39.120 was my second year, and we talked about the contributions 53 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.400 of black folks to dance in three classes, two years 54 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:47.560 of dance history. The course was called dance history, this 55 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.439 all encompassing term dance history, and they talked about the 56 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.800 contributions of people who look like me in three classes. 57 00:03:56.280 --> 00:04:00.960 And I realized that there's something missing in this teaching 58 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:04.479 learning environment. There was something missing. There was something missing 59 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.240 in who was teaching it, there was something missing in 60 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:10.159 what was being taught. There was something missing in how 61 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:12.800 the thing was being taught. And so I became an 62 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:18.360 educator out of necessity, right. I wanted to plant myself 63 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:24.480 in the retelling of histories so that they can become multifaceted, multisourced, 64 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:27.680 multi dimensional to all the people who will be receiving 65 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:31.240 these histories. In the same vein, I became a writer 66 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:35.279 because there were stories that needed to be told, right, 67 00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:41.639 true stories, multiple stories, stories of interiority, and they were missing. 68 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:44.680 And so when I became a dance writer dance critic, 69 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:47.879 it started with me seeing shows and reviewing them and 70 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:51.800 I'm using air quotes on the review because you know, 71 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:53.720 what exactly is the review? Right? And I've been having 72 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:56.839 this conversation with this idea of criticism. When you critique something, 73 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:00.279 what should be told? What is left? What's the residue? 74 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:06.480 And of course, through teaching, through choreographing, through writing, you 75 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.959 realize that there is some power in certain things. When 76 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:12.319 you stand in front of the room, as a teacher, 77 00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:17.000 you have power. So what you say matters, how you teach, matters, 78 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:19.600 who you touch me, like, all of those things matter. 79 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:25.480 As a writer, you also have power. What you say matters, right, 80 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.399 And so I came from this history of this lineage 81 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:31.800 of reading reviews that would make or break an artist, 82 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:35.680 make or break a creative, and I didn't want to 83 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:40.079 contribute to that. That that energy, that atmosphere, that that 84 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:45.040 that that the thing that that would make or break 85 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:48.439 something someone should not be my responsibility. And so I 86 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:50.839 took a step back, and I realized that I wanted 87 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:56.240 to write about how what was happening on stage reflected 88 00:05:56.279 --> 00:06:00.199 contemporary society. I didn't care how your legs went. I 89 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:02.879 didn't care many turns you did. I wanted to know 90 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:06.920 how what was on stage, how reflected blackness, how it 91 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:13.399 reflected queerness, how it reflected ableism, and or was having 92 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:18.759 conversations around that, how it gave insight to classism. I 93 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:22.199 wanted to see if I was reflected on what was 94 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:25.720 on stage, And so I became a writer for that reason, 95 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:28.360 so much so that I told my editor that I 96 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:31.240 only wanted to go to shows that were in non 97 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.000 traditional spaces, right. I didn't want to go see another nutcracker? 98 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:40.600 Who does? Who needs to see another nutcracker? I'm good, right? 99 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.439 And so I wanted to see the shows that were 100 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.600 not getting funded. I want to see the works of 101 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.279 people who were, you know, rubbing two pennies together to 102 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:52.079 make something happen, having a performance in their in their 103 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:54.759 living room, something happening in the pool. I wanted to 104 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:59.519 see how people were thinking and reviving things. So, and 105 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:01.240 this is the inenter point to what I'm talking about 106 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:05.040 with cats. When we think and talk about revivals, black 107 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:08.560 queer people have been doing this idea of reviving, breathing 108 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:14.120 life into something for centuries. Right, And so when black 109 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:18.000 queer people put their their creative energy together and say 110 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:22.279 let's let's revive Cats, I just knew it was gonna 111 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:30.720 be brilliant. But this brilliant, right, But this brilliant. We're 112 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.680 talking about how they rebuilt grammar. Right, they rebuilt the 113 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:38.600 grammar from the original Cats into a black queer ballroom 114 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:43.680 aesthetic of vocabulary of nuances. And we we when we 115 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:47.199 see it, there is a side that happens because we 116 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:49.920 didn't have to show up and ask for excuses and 117 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:53.920 asked to be excused and ask for permission. We showed 118 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:58.199 up and we were accepted. And that's the beautiful part 119 00:07:58.199 --> 00:07:59.519 of what Cats was able to do. 120 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:05.240 I was saying, like the there was so much like 121 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:09.920 the way the way it came across. It was accessible 122 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:16.639 to everyone, air quotes on everyone. But there was that 123 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:23.839 shorthand that if you knew ballroom, if you were a 124 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:28.800 black or brown queer person, you you caught some things 125 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:31.600 that might have gone over a lot of people's head. 126 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:35.399 Like my favorite favorite moment that or at least it's 127 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.080 the one that keeps coming back to me. Is that 128 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:46.480 one moment when the commentator he's walking and he has 129 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.639 the wings and he gets chopped and the other character 130 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:53.480 comes up behind me goes, I thought that was kind. 131 00:08:54.559 --> 00:09:00.240 I I lost my ship. I lost my ship. Come 132 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:02.480 like that is a sentence you have never heard uttered 133 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:05.080 on a Broadway stage before this moment. Please and thank you. 134 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:10.360 I am getting goosebumps as I hear you talk through this, 135 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:14.240 because there is something about legibility that has to be 136 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:18.000 addressed right when you get it, but it doesn't have 137 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:22.200 to be translated. There is an ease and an acquiesce 138 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.360 that happens, right, I hear something that happens in my 139 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:28.080 everyday life. Which is why I do believe, which is 140 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:30.519 why I do believe there is a distance, that there 141 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:34.279 is a disconnect sometimes for certain audiences to be able 142 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:37.879 to tap in one. They're not that curious, they're not 143 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:40.679 that curious, they don't want to know they there is, 144 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:44.639 I believe, right, And these are all my thoughts coming 145 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:49.519 coming to fruition and so hearing a language, a dialect 146 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:52.440 that is spoken on stage, something that I use on 147 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.679 a daily basis, it makes me go, that's a version 148 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.120 of who I am that is, but I also asked 149 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:03.559 the question the same question as I sip, step away 150 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:06.440 or not, the same question, an additional question, do I 151 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.440 need that kind of validation? What about? And of course 152 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:13.879 representation matters, but I'm asking you do it because there's 153 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:15.399 something about it that's validating. 154 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:16.799 Well. 155 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:21.919 Unfortunately, unfortunately, I believe the validation comes in a way 156 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:25.759 because we're asking whiteness to validate us in certain spheres. 157 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:28.440 We're asking whiteness to validate us. And while I don't 158 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:30.679 believe we need it, I do believe it needs to 159 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:31.159 be shown. 160 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:36.360 You know, I love the way that you uh described 161 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:40.399 your writing because you're talking about your you know, your lens. Yes, 162 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:44.080 and it's never been more important, and language has never 163 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:46.879 been more important. Yeah, we are alive at a time 164 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:49.519 when the world is upside down, and so are the 165 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:54.879 words M and I. Just what resonated with me was 166 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:57.559 the way that I have fat in training after training 167 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:03.279 that was supposed to tell people about transsness, and you 168 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:06.000 know where I was interested enough I wound up teaching 169 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:10.279 the damn class because we're not doing a great job. 170 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.799 There was a moment in the show, you know, with 171 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:21.639 Grizabella and Syllabab. I was already crying and i started 172 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:25.039 to bawl, you know, because I've spent the last six 173 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.960 years with young trans people, and with me in the 174 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:32.559 theater was the trans mentor that I have worked beside 175 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:37.360 that entire time with young trans people, and the moment 176 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:41.960 between Grizabella and Phyllibub spoke to me in ways that 177 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:48.960 just reached down and I was sobbing. There is a 178 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:58.320 connection between trans people, and there is a connection you 179 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:02.480 know when it were we learned from one another. You know, 180 00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:08.000 I've set on panels talking about intergenerational activism and the 181 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.039 way that we do need to be and I say, 182 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:14.120 please do listen to you know what I've picked up 183 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:17.320 in the course of my life. Please please hear it 184 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.120 and then throw it away and decide how you're going 185 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.399 to proceed. Sure, but you know where the youth and 186 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:28.440 the energy of Phylliba. You know, he had reached out 187 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:31.399 to Grizabella and touched her and she kind of came 188 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:35.120 back to life, and there was that moment where his 189 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:39.200 energy touched her. And that is what this is about. 190 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.919 I mean, the work with young people, whether I work 191 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:47.840 with young trans people, and that work when I see 192 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:53.679 folks finally see themselves and understand themselves, and it is 193 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.399 just as healing for me and I sobbed all the 194 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:02.519 way through it. And you know, Chastity more happened to 195 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:07.679 be standing or approach as we were standing backstage waiting 196 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.759 to meet Andre and Elizabeth, and I got to have 197 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:13.480 a conversation with her about that moment, about those two 198 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:18.559 cast members and the relationship that they have, and you know, 199 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.080 off stage, it's very much the connection that we saw 200 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:26.440 on stage. It was transformative. I don't know how much 201 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:30.960 of the audience even caught sure that level, but and 202 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.000 and there were more. I mean, I think you started 203 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.559 Charles started crying during Jellical Cats in the beginning until 204 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:38.480 you stop Untilia. 205 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:40.519 Yeah, my experience of the show when something like this 206 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.039 let okat sobbing and then that was it for the 207 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:43.799 entire for. 208 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:52.360 The I love this idea of two people strangers whoever 209 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:56.000 I was, teacher, student, a mentor, mentee, employee, employee, when 210 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:59.519 they meet connected, right, that that thing that fuse that happens. 211 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:06.000 I'm also interested in what led to this moment, right, 212 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:10.320 And it's always something that I'm asking I try my hardest, 213 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:12.200 which is why when I write, I'm always trying to 214 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:15.840 be introspective. I'm always sure. You know, we can meet 215 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:17.919 and we can go have a drink, we can have dinner, 216 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:21.120 we can have a happy conversation, hug and call today. 217 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.879 But I'm also interested in how you got to this 218 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.559 moment because it helps me to identify the energy with 219 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:30.639 which I am engaging. It helps me to understand a 220 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:34.200 mindset with which I'm engaging. And I am telling you 221 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.960 right now, i am not interested in spanking white people 222 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:42.360 and I'm not interested. I will not make space for 223 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:48.320 anyone or anything that is not a reflection of goodness. 224 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:50.960 I can't do it. I can't do it, and so 225 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:55.559 I have a short fuse for anything that is racist, homophobic, 226 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:59.600 head of a sexism, transphobic, xenophobic, fat phobia. I don't 227 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.600 want to do it. And so whenever, yes, we can come, 228 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:04.240 you can stand in my face and we can have 229 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:08.240 a conversation, we can dappen. But the minute I sense, 230 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:13.399 smell or sniff anything that leans into oppression, it's something 231 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.679 that doesn't work for me. And so we have to 232 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:19.399 talk about this idea and now asked this earlier, this 233 00:15:19.440 --> 00:15:21.600 idea of validation, and do we want to be validated. 234 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:26.840 We are broadway. They're working within a white atmosphere, a 235 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:31.320 white environment that a white history, a white paradigm, right 236 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.960 white context, to white lenses, the white funders. These are 237 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:37.600 things that are true and real, not in a negative way, 238 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:41.360 it's just the reality. We have to be honest and 239 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:45.200 real about not only our experiences, but the people who 240 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:49.320 are making decisions about black permanence, a black queer permanence, 241 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.360 right about black queer permanence. There are white people making 242 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:57.240 these decisions, and we have to start having these honest conversations. 243 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:02.440 This is true, This is true. And you know, I've 244 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:08.639 noticed there are individuals like RuPaul for instance, who I 245 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.480 know was a producer for Strange Loop, Like there are 246 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:18.840 these moments where notable black people are in that seat. 247 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:24.039 But then I'm like, how much of it is to 248 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:28.600 preserve promote and how much of it is Oh, let 249 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:30.360 me get in on this from the ground floor and 250 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:32.120 get some of that money. You know what I'm saying. 251 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.960 I'm rocking back and forth, and rocking for me is calming, 252 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.960 but it's also where it's also that feeling of oh, yes, 253 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.919 I'm feeling it right, I'm about to like do a 254 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:50.679 little hyah bacha linta. But but I will say there 255 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:53.279 is there's so many questions and if we if we 256 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.480 get to the root and or that the sweet spot 257 00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:58.519 of honesty, then I think we can move in the 258 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:02.919 right direction. And I'm not hearing the truth. I am 259 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.200 not hearing the truth because if we as a collective decide, okay, 260 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:08.200 we're gonna do this thing, We're gonna revive cats and 261 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:12.279 it's going to be you know, Harlem, you know, drag culture, 262 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:14.920 balls and blackness and queerness is going to be ignited 263 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.200 and augmented and amplified. What does it look like to 264 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.079 take it from a reading to a production? What does 265 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:24.599 it look like to go from a reading to a 266 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:26.599 five year run? What will it. 267 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:29.200 Take right because it's. 268 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:32.160 Going to take a different kind of engine? And are 269 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.680 we willing to commit? And it's the same questions I 270 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:40.240 ask institutions and organizations who have been you know, I'm 271 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:44.640 sure they've shifted now since they have to, they have to, 272 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:47.799 But since they started this whole idea of DEI or 273 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:51.880 this this drive towards DEI, how many organizations and institutions 274 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:57.240 were fully committed to ensuring that their mission and their 275 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:01.359 actions are in alignment with supporting the very people that 276 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:03.680 they say they care about. What does that look like? 277 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:06.559 Because I guarantee you me going up for tenure as 278 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.799 a black pear man looked very different than a white 279 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:13.079 professor going up for tenure. So I'm asking the institution, 280 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:15.920 when was the last time you took a black faculty 281 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:20.720 member on a tenure track from assistant professor all the 282 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:25.359 way through their tenure line to associate professor with tenure? 283 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:27.720 When was the last time we did that? And I'm 284 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:30.799 going to ask the same question to the Broadway League, right, 285 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.279 maybe even to equity, When was the last time you 286 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.480 took black creatives with a new idea, this idea of 287 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.759 new work, right? When did you invest enough to take 288 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:43.519 it to full production and you committed to ensuring that 289 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:46.319 it got a three year run? When was the last time? 290 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:47.559 Right? 291 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:48.519 When was the last time? 292 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:56.319 I ever since Porgy and Bess? Right, wow, m And 293 00:18:56.359 --> 00:18:57.880 don't get me started on that bullshit. 294 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:01.640 And we do have to ask who are the people 295 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:05.720 betting against blackness? Who are the people maybe not betting against, 296 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:09.119 but not betting for. Who are the people now investing 297 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:12.440 in telling black squeer stories? 298 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:13.559 Right? 299 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:20.640 Right? Because we know, you know, perhaps they weren't making 300 00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:24.480 over a million dollars a week, but I don't think 301 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:31.079 they've made under eighty eight thousand or whatever this entire time. 302 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:36.599 And what I really want, at least to be part 303 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:40.000 of this conversation, perhaps not even the most interesting part 304 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.920 is you know, where have we let something ride? Because 305 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:49.319 you reference it in the piece and the article which 306 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.440 we will link to when the ball ends early, which 307 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.519 you wrote, is up on substack. But you allude to 308 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.880 that idea, like we know that some have coasted, they 309 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:05.400 have been given. I believe you said grace, and I 310 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:09.480 think that's the perfect word, and you know exactly this 311 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:14.119 conversation is leading there. In order to offer grace, especially 312 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:19.279 in this high stakes game, I suppose one has to 313 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:22.200 feel that grace somewhere inside, right, they have to be 314 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:26.519 connected to the work, and I think we're seeing what 315 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:31.000 happens when they're not. So yeah, yeah, and yet it's 316 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:36.799 a transformative piece and it's fun. It is not you know, 317 00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:39.440 there were so many themes, and there were so but 318 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:44.000 it's also you know, I left with joy, right, yeah, 319 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.039 and I left having experienced joy. 320 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.400 I left changed and how I walked in I just 321 00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:50.920 know I did. 322 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:52.839 I had, Hey, yeah, a whole lot of white people 323 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:58.160 that are very invested in costuming and everything else out 324 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:05.400 in the audience. So yeah, how come five months? How come? 325 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.279 Yeah? We have to ask the question with producers and 326 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.759 I get it. Capitalism sucks. I do get that. Yeah, 327 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.079 something that we're all and it's something that we're constantly 328 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:20.200 engaging with, this idea of how do I make back 329 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:24.400 my money? Is that the core? Is that the center 330 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:25.640 of your value system? 331 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:26.839 Right? 332 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.440 I don't know. We're going to ask these questions because 333 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.680 I do believe, and it's really easy for me to 334 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:36.400 align this conversation to hire ed it really is, because 335 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:40.799 it's in lots of ways. It's similar. You say, you 336 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:43.559 want to hire these people who are going to do 337 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:48.319 these things. Will this person coming in to advocate for 338 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.960 black faculty or to advocate for a faculty member to 339 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.720 get ten and promotion? Will this person have access to 340 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:56.880 a team or the systems that's going to make it 341 00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.759 easy for that person to do their job? Right, I'm 342 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.279 going to invest a million dollars into this project. It 343 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.599 can stop there right right? Who are the people going 344 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:09.200 on the airwaves and on TV to promote this show? 345 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:13.119 What does what does what does marketing and publicity look like? 346 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:16.319 Where that do we do? We have a thing where 347 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.720 we go from different borrows like it cannot look like 348 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:22.319 the tradition. We have to take a step back and 349 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.599 be creative problem solvers. If you know that something maintained, 350 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:30.720 then what's your backup plan? And how are you putting 351 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.880 something into the engine to ensure that it lasts and 352 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:35.599 do the thing that you say you wanted to do. 353 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:39.000 What if you said, Okay, we're going to do this 354 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:41.960 Broadway run something has ever been done. We're gonna, you know, 355 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:44.720 take it, take it, take it a step further, and 356 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:47.960 we're going to do five weeks in Manhattan or five 357 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:51.640 months in Manhattan on Broadway on forty eighth Street, whatever, 358 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.000 and then we're going to clock up shop and then 359 00:22:54.039 --> 00:22:56.680 we're gonna go to Queen's and we're gonna rent out 360 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.440 this the armory and do it. Do it five months there. 361 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:01.960 So this idea of it moving from places to places 362 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:05.000 to make it a little bit more accessible to different communities. 363 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:06.519 I don't know. I'm just talking of the top of 364 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:09.559 my head right now. Right how do we take this thing? Now? 365 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:13.119 What becomes a thing that's traveling. It's been marketed differently. 366 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:16.000 People are now hearing about it. It's now a buzz, 367 00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:18.880 it's not being written about it. There we have to 368 00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:23.799 if we approach this thing with the same resources that 369 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:28.400 we do the white legacy productions, it's down to fail. 370 00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:32.279 It's bound to fail. I cannot teach my black students 371 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.079 the same way I teach my white students, right, Okay, 372 00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.559 because of that, it's really important. 373 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:43.079 Go ahead, Martha, Oh, absolutely true, you know, And I'm 374 00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.480 I put it through the only lens that I have 375 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:50.880 professionally as a trans person in the workforce. And you know, 376 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:53.440 the question that's sort of burning as you talk is 377 00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:00.640 I have encountered this idea where okay, they said they 378 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:05.079 wanted to do the thing, Well, we did it. We 379 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:08.359 did it. It's done now. For whatever reason, you know, 380 00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:12.119 I built a program that won two awards inside of 381 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:16.680 two years, to social Innovation awards by every metric. You know, 382 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:19.119 we were in the black when we shouldn't have been. 383 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.079 And this is mental health and addiction. And yet the 384 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:28.319 grant went away, program went away. You know a little 385 00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:31.559 bit more to it. But sometimes I feel like it's, well, 386 00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:34.400 we want to do this thing to say we did 387 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:39.599 the thing right, because people will stop talking about it, 388 00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:43.759 so we can stop investing energy here because through that 389 00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:46.839 white lens it becomes problematic. We went through the. 390 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.640 Doing the thing, but that is when I have the 391 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:52.240 thing right. 392 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:56.559 Through that heteronormative lens. We gave you Tranny's air and space. 393 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:01.119 Long enough, we did it. Well, you know it got 394 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:05.640 a little more expensive, so sorry, and it can be 395 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:10.759 in academy. I spent twelve years there in theater, in 396 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.839 the arts and in the workplace. You know, one champion 397 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.240 can get a lot done. That one champion goes away 398 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.880 and everybody else goes well, that wasn't mind thing right, listen, 399 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.279 and then here we are help. How far back do 400 00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:27.680 we go? Listening? 401 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:29.519