Speaker 1: Coming to you from the dining room table at East
Speaker 1: Barbary Lane. Welcome to a special episode a Full Circle
Speaker 1: the Podcast. I am your host, Martha Madrigal, and.
Speaker 2: I am your host Charles Tyson Jr.
Speaker 1: Our guest today is becoming one of my favorite writers,
Speaker 1: just in terms of clarity and the message that he sends.
Speaker 1: Doctor Gregory King holds his doctorate an inter Professional Leadership
Speaker 1: from ken State University, an MFA and Choreographic Practice and
Speaker 1: Theory from Southern Methodist University, a certification in Arts and
Speaker 1: Culture Strategy from the University of Pennsylvania School of Good
Speaker 1: Policy and Practice, and I'm going to point out for
Speaker 1: purposes of this discussion. He also spent seven years on
Speaker 1: Broadway and The Lion King. He is currently the director
Speaker 1: of Education and Research at Support Black Theater in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: Please welcome to the Full Circle Table, Doctor Gregory King.
Speaker 3: Hello there. Do we have many applauses like hands capping
Speaker 3: or something we can do that, Charles, Martha.
Speaker 1: I just want to get it on the record because
Speaker 1: I talked about it in our last episode. We had
Speaker 1: tickets to go see Cats the Gelica Ball. Charles has
Speaker 1: wanted to see this show since we heard about it
Speaker 1: in pre production.
Speaker 2: Right, and I was just like, oh my goodness, there
Speaker 2: is going to be a version of Cats that is
Speaker 2: like set against the backdrop of ballroom. I might add
Speaker 2: actually like Cats, right, And you know, everyone who we
Speaker 2: knew was saying, this is just something you've never seen.
Speaker 1: This is brilliant. This takes this musical we all love
Speaker 1: to hate and turns it into something special. And then
Speaker 1: the announcement and it had been extended into January. You know,
Speaker 1: it was doing.
Speaker 2: Well, which made perfect sense to me.
Speaker 1: What three Tony Awards, I think? And then you know
Speaker 1: the news comes through. August eighth is the last performance,
Speaker 1: and a lot of white folks have things to say
Speaker 1: about this, but you wrote a brilliant piece. I read it.
Speaker 1: I said to Charles, this is where we need to talk.
Speaker 1: This is the conversation that needs to be had. And
Speaker 1: I'm just thrilled that you made the time to talk
Speaker 1: to us about this whole thing. So hey, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: shut up.
Speaker 3: No, this is great, and thank you. Thank you for
Speaker 3: the email, Charles, Thank you for inviting me to share
Speaker 3: your space. Thank you for reading my work and engaging
Speaker 3: with it in such a profound way. I think language matters.
Speaker 3: I think words are important. They shape your thoughts, I believe,
Speaker 3: and they can have that impact. And I want to
Speaker 3: share the story with how I became a writer. What
Speaker 3: drew me to this idea of using words to tell stories.
Speaker 3: I was in grad school at SMU as you as
Speaker 3: you laid out earlier, and I wasn't dance history. It
Speaker 3: was my second year, and we talked about the contributions
Speaker 3: of black folks to dance in three classes, two years
Speaker 3: of dance history. The course was called dance history, this
Speaker 3: all encompassing term dance history, and they talked about the
Speaker 3: contributions of people who look like me in three classes.
Speaker 3: And I realized that there's something missing in this teaching
Speaker 3: learning environment. There was something missing. There was something missing
Speaker 3: in who was teaching it, there was something missing in
Speaker 3: what was being taught. There was something missing in how
Speaker 3: the thing was being taught. And so I became an
Speaker 3: educator out of necessity, right. I wanted to plant myself
Speaker 3: in the retelling of histories so that they can become multifaceted, multisourced,
Speaker 3: multi dimensional to all the people who will be receiving
Speaker 3: these histories. In the same vein, I became a writer
Speaker 3: because there were stories that needed to be told, right,
Speaker 3: true stories, multiple stories, stories of interiority, and they were missing.
Speaker 3: And so when I became a dance writer dance critic,
Speaker 3: it started with me seeing shows and reviewing them and
Speaker 3: I'm using air quotes on the review because you know,
Speaker 3: what exactly is the review? Right? And I've been having
Speaker 3: this conversation with this idea of criticism. When you critique something,
Speaker 3: what should be told? What is left? What's the residue?
Speaker 3: And of course, through teaching, through choreographing, through writing, you
Speaker 3: realize that there is some power in certain things. When
Speaker 3: you stand in front of the room, as a teacher,
Speaker 3: you have power. So what you say matters, how you teach, matters,
Speaker 3: who you touch me, like, all of those things matter.
Speaker 3: As a writer, you also have power. What you say matters, right,
Speaker 3: And so I came from this history of this lineage
Speaker 3: of reading reviews that would make or break an artist,
Speaker 3: make or break a creative, and I didn't want to
Speaker 3: contribute to that. That that energy, that atmosphere, that that
Speaker 3: that that the thing that that would make or break
Speaker 3: something someone should not be my responsibility. And so I
Speaker 3: took a step back, and I realized that I wanted
Speaker 3: to write about how what was happening on stage reflected
Speaker 3: contemporary society. I didn't care how your legs went. I
Speaker 3: didn't care many turns you did. I wanted to know
Speaker 3: how what was on stage, how reflected blackness, how it
Speaker 3: reflected queerness, how it reflected ableism, and or was having
Speaker 3: conversations around that, how it gave insight to classism. I
Speaker 3: wanted to see if I was reflected on what was
Speaker 3: on stage, And so I became a writer for that reason,
Speaker 3: so much so that I told my editor that I
Speaker 3: only wanted to go to shows that were in non
Speaker 3: traditional spaces, right. I didn't want to go see another nutcracker?
Speaker 3: Who does? Who needs to see another nutcracker? I'm good, right?
Speaker 3: And so I wanted to see the shows that were
Speaker 3: not getting funded. I want to see the works of
Speaker 3: people who were, you know, rubbing two pennies together to
Speaker 3: make something happen, having a performance in their in their
Speaker 3: living room, something happening in the pool. I wanted to
Speaker 3: see how people were thinking and reviving things. So, and
Speaker 3: this is the inenter point to what I'm talking about
Speaker 3: with cats. When we think and talk about revivals, black
Speaker 3: queer people have been doing this idea of reviving, breathing
Speaker 3: life into something for centuries. Right, And so when black
Speaker 3: queer people put their their creative energy together and say
Speaker 3: let's let's revive Cats, I just knew it was gonna
Speaker 3: be brilliant. But this brilliant, right, But this brilliant. We're
Speaker 3: talking about how they rebuilt grammar. Right, they rebuilt the
Speaker 3: grammar from the original Cats into a black queer ballroom
Speaker 3: aesthetic of vocabulary of nuances. And we we when we
Speaker 3: see it, there is a side that happens because we
Speaker 3: didn't have to show up and ask for excuses and
Speaker 3: asked to be excused and ask for permission. We showed
Speaker 3: up and we were accepted. And that's the beautiful part
Speaker 3: of what Cats was able to do.
Speaker 2: I was saying, like the there was so much like
Speaker 2: the way the way it came across. It was accessible
Speaker 2: to everyone, air quotes on everyone. But there was that
Speaker 2: shorthand that if you knew ballroom, if you were a
Speaker 2: black or brown queer person, you you caught some things
Speaker 2: that might have gone over a lot of people's head.
Speaker 2: Like my favorite favorite moment that or at least it's
Speaker 2: the one that keeps coming back to me. Is that
Speaker 2: one moment when the commentator he's walking and he has
Speaker 2: the wings and he gets chopped and the other character
Speaker 2: comes up behind me goes, I thought that was kind.
Speaker 2: I I lost my ship. I lost my ship. Come
Speaker 2: like that is a sentence you have never heard uttered
Speaker 2: on a Broadway stage before this moment. Please and thank you.
Speaker 3: I am getting goosebumps as I hear you talk through this,
Speaker 3: because there is something about legibility that has to be
Speaker 3: addressed right when you get it, but it doesn't have
Speaker 3: to be translated. There is an ease and an acquiesce
Speaker 3: that happens, right, I hear something that happens in my
Speaker 3: everyday life. Which is why I do believe, which is
Speaker 3: why I do believe there is a distance, that there
Speaker 3: is a disconnect sometimes for certain audiences to be able
Speaker 3: to tap in one. They're not that curious, they're not
Speaker 3: that curious, they don't want to know they there is,
Speaker 3: I believe, right, And these are all my thoughts coming
Speaker 3: coming to fruition and so hearing a language, a dialect
Speaker 3: that is spoken on stage, something that I use on
Speaker 3: a daily basis, it makes me go, that's a version
Speaker 3: of who I am that is, but I also asked
Speaker 3: the question the same question as I sip, step away
Speaker 3: or not, the same question, an additional question, do I
Speaker 3: need that kind of validation? What about? And of course
Speaker 3: representation matters, but I'm asking you do it because there's
Speaker 3: something about it that's validating.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, unfortunately, I believe the validation comes in a way
Speaker 3: because we're asking whiteness to validate us in certain spheres.
Speaker 3: We're asking whiteness to validate us. And while I don't
Speaker 3: believe we need it, I do believe it needs to
Speaker 3: be shown.
Speaker 1: You know, I love the way that you uh described
Speaker 1: your writing because you're talking about your you know, your lens. Yes,
Speaker 1: and it's never been more important, and language has never
Speaker 1: been more important. Yeah, we are alive at a time
Speaker 1: when the world is upside down, and so are the
Speaker 1: words M and I. Just what resonated with me was
Speaker 1: the way that I have fat in training after training
Speaker 1: that was supposed to tell people about transsness, and you
Speaker 1: know where I was interested enough I wound up teaching
Speaker 1: the damn class because we're not doing a great job.
Speaker 1: There was a moment in the show, you know, with
Speaker 1: Grizabella and Syllabab. I was already crying and i started
Speaker 1: to bawl, you know, because I've spent the last six
Speaker 1: years with young trans people, and with me in the
Speaker 1: theater was the trans mentor that I have worked beside
Speaker 1: that entire time with young trans people, and the moment
Speaker 1: between Grizabella and Phyllibub spoke to me in ways that
Speaker 1: just reached down and I was sobbing. There is a
Speaker 1: connection between trans people, and there is a connection you
Speaker 1: know when it were we learned from one another. You know,
Speaker 1: I've set on panels talking about intergenerational activism and the
Speaker 1: way that we do need to be and I say,
Speaker 1: please do listen to you know what I've picked up
Speaker 1: in the course of my life. Please please hear it
Speaker 1: and then throw it away and decide how you're going
Speaker 1: to proceed. Sure, but you know where the youth and
Speaker 1: the energy of Phylliba. You know, he had reached out
Speaker 1: to Grizabella and touched her and she kind of came
Speaker 1: back to life, and there was that moment where his
Speaker 1: energy touched her. And that is what this is about.
Speaker 1: I mean, the work with young people, whether I work
Speaker 1: with young trans people, and that work when I see
Speaker 1: folks finally see themselves and understand themselves, and it is
Speaker 1: just as healing for me and I sobbed all the
Speaker 1: way through it. And you know, Chastity more happened to
Speaker 1: be standing or approach as we were standing backstage waiting
Speaker 1: to meet Andre and Elizabeth, and I got to have
Speaker 1: a conversation with her about that moment, about those two
Speaker 1: cast members and the relationship that they have, and you know,
Speaker 1: off stage, it's very much the connection that we saw
Speaker 1: on stage. It was transformative. I don't know how much
Speaker 1: of the audience even caught sure that level, but and
Speaker 1: and there were more. I mean, I think you started
Speaker 1: Charles started crying during Jellical Cats in the beginning until
Speaker 1: you stop Untilia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my experience of the show when something like this
Speaker 2: let okat sobbing and then that was it for the
Speaker 2: entire for.
Speaker 3: The I love this idea of two people strangers whoever
Speaker 3: I was, teacher, student, a mentor, mentee, employee, employee, when
Speaker 3: they meet connected, right, that that thing that fuse that happens.
Speaker 3: I'm also interested in what led to this moment, right,
Speaker 3: And it's always something that I'm asking I try my hardest,
Speaker 3: which is why when I write, I'm always trying to
Speaker 3: be introspective. I'm always sure. You know, we can meet
Speaker 3: and we can go have a drink, we can have dinner,
Speaker 3: we can have a happy conversation, hug and call today.
Speaker 3: But I'm also interested in how you got to this
Speaker 3: moment because it helps me to identify the energy with
Speaker 3: which I am engaging. It helps me to understand a
Speaker 3: mindset with which I'm engaging. And I am telling you
Speaker 3: right now, i am not interested in spanking white people
Speaker 3: and I'm not interested. I will not make space for
Speaker 3: anyone or anything that is not a reflection of goodness.
Speaker 3: I can't do it. I can't do it, and so
Speaker 3: I have a short fuse for anything that is racist, homophobic,
Speaker 3: head of a sexism, transphobic, xenophobic, fat phobia. I don't
Speaker 3: want to do it. And so whenever, yes, we can come,
Speaker 3: you can stand in my face and we can have
Speaker 3: a conversation, we can dappen. But the minute I sense,
Speaker 3: smell or sniff anything that leans into oppression, it's something
Speaker 3: that doesn't work for me. And so we have to
Speaker 3: talk about this idea and now asked this earlier, this
Speaker 3: idea of validation, and do we want to be validated.
Speaker 3: We are broadway. They're working within a white atmosphere, a
Speaker 3: white environment that a white history, a white paradigm, right
Speaker 3: white context, to white lenses, the white funders. These are
Speaker 3: things that are true and real, not in a negative way,
Speaker 3: it's just the reality. We have to be honest and
Speaker 3: real about not only our experiences, but the people who
Speaker 3: are making decisions about black permanence, a black queer permanence,
Speaker 3: right about black queer permanence. There are white people making
Speaker 3: these decisions, and we have to start having these honest conversations.
Speaker 2: This is true, This is true. And you know, I've
Speaker 2: noticed there are individuals like RuPaul for instance, who I
Speaker 2: know was a producer for Strange Loop, Like there are
Speaker 2: these moments where notable black people are in that seat.
Speaker 2: But then I'm like, how much of it is to
Speaker 2: preserve promote and how much of it is Oh, let
Speaker 2: me get in on this from the ground floor and
Speaker 2: get some of that money. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: I'm rocking back and forth, and rocking for me is calming,
Speaker 3: but it's also where it's also that feeling of oh, yes,
Speaker 3: I'm feeling it right, I'm about to like do a
Speaker 3: little hyah bacha linta. But but I will say there
Speaker 3: is there's so many questions and if we if we
Speaker 3: get to the root and or that the sweet spot
Speaker 3: of honesty, then I think we can move in the
Speaker 3: right direction. And I'm not hearing the truth. I am
Speaker 3: not hearing the truth because if we as a collective decide, okay,
Speaker 3: we're gonna do this thing, We're gonna revive cats and
Speaker 3: it's going to be you know, Harlem, you know, drag culture,
Speaker 3: balls and blackness and queerness is going to be ignited
Speaker 3: and augmented and amplified. What does it look like to
Speaker 3: take it from a reading to a production? What does
Speaker 3: it look like to go from a reading to a
Speaker 3: five year run? What will it.
Speaker 2: Take right because it's.
Speaker 3: Going to take a different kind of engine? And are
Speaker 3: we willing to commit? And it's the same questions I
Speaker 3: ask institutions and organizations who have been you know, I'm
Speaker 3: sure they've shifted now since they have to, they have to,
Speaker 3: But since they started this whole idea of DEI or
Speaker 3: this this drive towards DEI, how many organizations and institutions
Speaker 3: were fully committed to ensuring that their mission and their
Speaker 3: actions are in alignment with supporting the very people that
Speaker 3: they say they care about. What does that look like?
Speaker 3: Because I guarantee you me going up for tenure as
Speaker 3: a black pear man looked very different than a white
Speaker 3: professor going up for tenure. So I'm asking the institution,
Speaker 3: when was the last time you took a black faculty
Speaker 3: member on a tenure track from assistant professor all the
Speaker 3: way through their tenure line to associate professor with tenure?
Speaker 3: When was the last time we did that? And I'm
Speaker 3: going to ask the same question to the Broadway League, right,
Speaker 3: maybe even to equity, When was the last time you
Speaker 3: took black creatives with a new idea, this idea of
Speaker 3: new work, right? When did you invest enough to take
Speaker 3: it to full production and you committed to ensuring that
Speaker 3: it got a three year run? When was the last time?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: When was the last time?
Speaker 2: I ever since Porgy and Bess? Right, wow, m And
Speaker 2: don't get me started on that bullshit.
Speaker 3: And we do have to ask who are the people
Speaker 3: betting against blackness? Who are the people maybe not betting against,
Speaker 3: but not betting for. Who are the people now investing
Speaker 3: in telling black squeer stories?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Right? Because we know, you know, perhaps they weren't making
Speaker 1: over a million dollars a week, but I don't think
Speaker 1: they've made under eighty eight thousand or whatever this entire time.
Speaker 1: And what I really want, at least to be part
Speaker 1: of this conversation, perhaps not even the most interesting part
Speaker 1: is you know, where have we let something ride? Because
Speaker 1: you reference it in the piece and the article which
Speaker 1: we will link to when the ball ends early, which
Speaker 1: you wrote, is up on substack. But you allude to
Speaker 1: that idea, like we know that some have coasted, they
Speaker 1: have been given. I believe you said grace, and I
Speaker 1: think that's the perfect word, and you know exactly this
Speaker 1: conversation is leading there. In order to offer grace, especially
Speaker 1: in this high stakes game, I suppose one has to
Speaker 1: feel that grace somewhere inside, right, they have to be
Speaker 1: connected to the work, and I think we're seeing what
Speaker 1: happens when they're not. So yeah, yeah, and yet it's
Speaker 1: a transformative piece and it's fun. It is not you know,
Speaker 1: there were so many themes, and there were so but
Speaker 1: it's also you know, I left with joy, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I left having experienced joy.
Speaker 2: I left changed and how I walked in I just
Speaker 2: know I did.
Speaker 1: I had, Hey, yeah, a whole lot of white people
Speaker 1: that are very invested in costuming and everything else out
Speaker 1: in the audience. So yeah, how come five months? How come?
Speaker 3: Yeah? We have to ask the question with producers and
Speaker 3: I get it. Capitalism sucks. I do get that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: something that we're all and it's something that we're constantly
Speaker 3: engaging with, this idea of how do I make back
Speaker 3: my money? Is that the core? Is that the center
Speaker 3: of your value system?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: I don't know. We're going to ask these questions because
Speaker 3: I do believe, and it's really easy for me to
Speaker 3: align this conversation to hire ed it really is, because
Speaker 3: it's in lots of ways. It's similar. You say, you
Speaker 3: want to hire these people who are going to do
Speaker 3: these things. Will this person coming in to advocate for
Speaker 3: black faculty or to advocate for a faculty member to
Speaker 3: get ten and promotion? Will this person have access to
Speaker 3: a team or the systems that's going to make it
Speaker 3: easy for that person to do their job? Right, I'm
Speaker 3: going to invest a million dollars into this project. It
Speaker 3: can stop there right right? Who are the people going
Speaker 3: on the airwaves and on TV to promote this show?
Speaker 3: What does what does what does marketing and publicity look like?
Speaker 3: Where that do we do? We have a thing where
Speaker 3: we go from different borrows like it cannot look like
Speaker 3: the tradition. We have to take a step back and
Speaker 3: be creative problem solvers. If you know that something maintained,
Speaker 3: then what's your backup plan? And how are you putting
Speaker 3: something into the engine to ensure that it lasts and
Speaker 3: do the thing that you say you wanted to do.
Speaker 3: What if you said, Okay, we're going to do this
Speaker 3: Broadway run something has ever been done. We're gonna, you know,
Speaker 3: take it, take it, take it a step further, and
Speaker 3: we're going to do five weeks in Manhattan or five
Speaker 3: months in Manhattan on Broadway on forty eighth Street, whatever,
Speaker 3: and then we're going to clock up shop and then
Speaker 3: we're gonna go to Queen's and we're gonna rent out
Speaker 3: this the armory and do it. Do it five months there.
Speaker 3: So this idea of it moving from places to places
Speaker 3: to make it a little bit more accessible to different communities.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm just talking of the top of
Speaker 3: my head right now. Right how do we take this thing? Now?
Speaker 3: What becomes a thing that's traveling. It's been marketed differently.
Speaker 3: People are now hearing about it. It's now a buzz,
Speaker 3: it's not being written about it. There we have to
Speaker 3: if we approach this thing with the same resources that
Speaker 3: we do the white legacy productions, it's down to fail.
Speaker 3: It's bound to fail. I cannot teach my black students
Speaker 3: the same way I teach my white students, right, Okay,
Speaker 3: because of that, it's really important.
Speaker 1: Go ahead, Martha, Oh, absolutely true, you know, And I'm
Speaker 1: I put it through the only lens that I have
Speaker 1: professionally as a trans person in the workforce. And you know,
Speaker 1: the question that's sort of burning as you talk is
Speaker 1: I have encountered this idea where okay, they said they
Speaker 1: wanted to do the thing, Well, we did it. We
Speaker 1: did it. It's done now. For whatever reason, you know,
Speaker 1: I built a program that won two awards inside of
Speaker 1: two years, to social Innovation awards by every metric. You know,
Speaker 1: we were in the black when we shouldn't have been.
Speaker 1: And this is mental health and addiction. And yet the
Speaker 1: grant went away, program went away. You know a little
Speaker 1: bit more to it. But sometimes I feel like it's, well,
Speaker 1: we want to do this thing to say we did
Speaker 1: the thing right, because people will stop talking about it,
Speaker 1: so we can stop investing energy here because through that
Speaker 1: white lens it becomes problematic. We went through the.
Speaker 2: Doing the thing, but that is when I have the
Speaker 2: thing right.
Speaker 1: Through that heteronormative lens. We gave you Tranny's air and space.
Speaker 1: Long enough, we did it. Well, you know it got
Speaker 1: a little more expensive, so sorry, and it can be
Speaker 1: in academy. I spent twelve years there in theater, in
Speaker 1: the arts and in the workplace. You know, one champion
Speaker 1: can get a lot done. That one champion goes away
Speaker 1: and everybody else goes well, that wasn't mind thing right, listen,
Speaker 1: and then here we are help. How far back do
Speaker 1: we go? Listening?
Speaker 3: There was a story, there was a there was some
Speaker 3: research done within the film industry and they were talking
Speaker 3: about I think it was a craft institute from Darkmouth,
Speaker 3: and they did this research around why is it that
Speaker 3: black black shows are not getting produced? And the conversation
Speaker 3: can lean to the answer being producers. White producers were
Speaker 3: saying that black stories, black shows don't sell, especially overseas.
Speaker 3: Oh it doesn't sell, but that's not true, and that's
Speaker 3: not how much how much did sinners make how much?
Speaker 3: What can the forever make? How much of Black Panther
Speaker 3: make right? So it's not that it doesn't sell, there
Speaker 3: is something. There's a detachment from you. You don't want
Speaker 3: to right, You don't think that it's it's it's relevant,
Speaker 3: you don't find it valuable, you don't want to augment
Speaker 3: the voices of this this this demographic, and so you
Speaker 3: create a narrative around it to not allow it to
Speaker 3: live in its permanence.
Speaker 1: Mmmmmm hmmm. Yeah. There. If I'm working to save lives,
Speaker 1: you don't believe need to be saved in the first place.
Speaker 3: Exactly, exactly, exactly, And and the part of it has
Speaker 3: to do we have to start rewriting the story we
Speaker 3: as black people, we as black where people, and we're
Speaker 3: doing it. We're doing it fiercely. I believe that. And
Speaker 3: so you know, I'm always going to write hard for
Speaker 3: the black wear immigrant let's go, you know, but I
Speaker 3: do believe that we have to have the conversation and
Speaker 3: we have to a lot of times sit on the
Speaker 3: same stage and say you are not putting your money
Speaker 3: where your mouth is.
Speaker 2: Dang, yeah, yeah, because that takes the courage of your conviction.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and what does that look like? It is work.
Speaker 3: People do not want to do the work right when
Speaker 3: you hire me to become I don't know the dean
Speaker 3: of faculty. I want to ensure that faculty enjoy coming
Speaker 3: to work. I want to ensure that faculty work life
Speaker 3: balance is centered. I want to ensure that everyone that
Speaker 3: you hire on a tenure track eventually gets tenure, not
Speaker 3: may get tenure. No, you already saw their CV. You
Speaker 3: know that they're tenure worthy. So what kind of support
Speaker 3: are we putting into the engine to ensure and to
Speaker 3: secure their tenure. You don't go, Okay, this person might
Speaker 3: get tenure, let's hire them and then we'll see where
Speaker 3: it lands. And that's why I think producers are looking
Speaker 3: at creative projects.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, No, it's and by that example, it's you know,
Speaker 2: dangling one carrot above everyone's head, you know, as opposed
Speaker 2: to you know, carrots for everyone, which is you know
Speaker 2: how it should be. But you have the nerve to
Speaker 2: call your union equity and.
Speaker 4: Then you know what I mean? And I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's again it's that thing like Martha said, of uh,
Speaker 2: you want to be seen doing the work as opposed
Speaker 2: to doing the work you want to you we were
Speaker 2: seeing we put queer people, uh, queer black people in
Speaker 2: a queer black context on stage. But once it's no
Speaker 2: longer the cool new thing, once the new dun rubbed
Speaker 2: off it. As my father would say, you know then
Speaker 2: what which basically means once the white pop culture attention
Speaker 2: and span has found something else, then what how important
Speaker 2: is it now? And to whom?
Speaker 3: Yeah? You know, yeah, I think I think the conversations
Speaker 3: that are happening and should be happening, of course if
Speaker 3: has to move from conversation to action, right, And I
Speaker 3: do want to know what for the conversation? What did
Speaker 3: they look like? What that was happening in the room?
Speaker 3: Who who were the people at the table? What happened
Speaker 3: for you to pull the plug on a show that was,
Speaker 3: by all metrics that Martha say, doing well right relatively speaking?
Speaker 3: There may have been a dip at times, and there
Speaker 3: are other shows I'm probably not doing well. But what
Speaker 3: happened for you to go, oh, this is something that
Speaker 3: I am going to choose to not bet on.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, because I know that theater was full when
Speaker 2: we were there, and you know.
Speaker 3: So there's a market for it, right, There is a
Speaker 3: market for it.
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know if I've been to a show
Speaker 1: where there was that much energy in the audience with
Speaker 1: the fans clacking and people just engaged and to their
Speaker 1: feet and.
Speaker 3: Dancing when they're seeingcity for the theater it's in.
Speaker 1: Do you know thousand we did this? What is the
Speaker 1: eleven hundred and something?
Speaker 3: I think it was like eleven one hundred.
Speaker 2: What I read said something like twelve hundred to sixteen hundred,
Speaker 2: depending upon which ticket ticketing thing you were looking at.
Speaker 1: I thought it was more like eleven between eleven fifty
Speaker 1: and twelve thirty or something like that. It was a
Speaker 1: smaller is it one? Is it one of the smaller houses?
Speaker 1: I don't know about that. I feel like I've been
Speaker 1: in smaller theaters. I don't have the answer to that question.
Speaker 3: So I'm thinking, you know, as a producer, but also
Speaker 3: as an artist, if this wasn't doing well in a
Speaker 3: twelve hundred seat theater, was it? Was it that? Was
Speaker 3: it the conversation or could the conversation have gone hmmm?
Speaker 3: Can we take it to a small house to ensure
Speaker 3: that the overheads are not so, you know, so that
Speaker 3: we can ensure that the story stays and gets played
Speaker 3: and get seen and we make our money back. Because
Speaker 3: that's a part of the conversation. What was the conversation,
Speaker 3: Do we shift environment? Do we you know, rotate casts
Speaker 3: and bring in some names? Right, because that was also
Speaker 3: an option. I'm sure you could have brought in, you know,
Speaker 3: a few big names to get people and attract people.
Speaker 3: What was the conversation? Just now? We're good, right, right?
Speaker 1: Right? I can't imagine and we are likely to never
Speaker 1: know because you know, it's going to be the post
Speaker 1: mortem that we're going to hear about, and that I
Speaker 1: think is my frustration just in the news is like, well,
Speaker 1: now's when to fix it?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: What needs fixing?
Speaker 3: Here?
Speaker 1: What needs what needs reimagining?
Speaker 2: You know, like a teacher, we're moment.
Speaker 1: But again, are you looking at you know, preserving something
Speaker 1: worth preserving and make, you know, ensuring its legacy and
Speaker 1: it's it's time and existence, or are you looking at
Speaker 1: it like we did the thing? Sorry it didn't work.
Speaker 1: That was fun, because that's what I'm hearing. Sorry, sorry
Speaker 1: it it just didn't work. What do you mean it
Speaker 1: didn't work? What does that look like?
Speaker 3: What does that look like? And of course I'm speculating,
Speaker 3: you know, because we weren't in on the conversation. But
Speaker 3: I'm voicing my frustration with the people who make the
Speaker 3: decisions to not take a step back and go, oh,
Speaker 3: this community, these people. These stories have not been main
Speaker 3: stories have not been amplified, stories have not been necessary stories.
Speaker 3: How do we change the narrative? How do we flip
Speaker 3: the script?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: Because when people say things like black lives matter or
Speaker 3: trans lives matter, it's because at times we exist in
Speaker 3: spaces where it doesn't feel like it does.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: You gave us a list of other examples of this happening.
Speaker 1: I have it in front of me. I mean, Ain't
Speaker 1: no Mo. Twenty two previews, twenty one performances closed, and.
Speaker 3: I must say, Ain't no Mo. That was after critics pick.
Speaker 3: So the people who are saying yay or nay were saying,
Speaker 3: go see this, and it's still closed.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Cooper, who was the youngest Black American playwright in Broadway
Speaker 1: history at the time, launched a save Ain't No Mo
Speaker 1: campaign that drew Woopy Goldberg, Billy Porter, RuPaul in a
Speaker 1: while performance from Will and Jada Pinkett Smith. Producer Lee
Speaker 1: Daniels said the industry doesn't always embrace our stories, right yep? Yeah,
Speaker 1: A strange loop twenty twenty two, twenty.
Speaker 2: Three, which are still said, I missed.
Speaker 1: Thirteen previews and three hundred and one performances, won the
Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize for Drama and Tony for Best Musical.
Speaker 3: There you go.
Speaker 2: I also think about like Fat Fat Him, like Fat
Speaker 2: ham blew everyone away when it had its run in Philly,
Speaker 2: and then when it went to Broadway that just seemed
Speaker 2: like a natural progression. And then it started like racking
Speaker 2: up accolades on Broadway, and then it closed, and it's like,
Speaker 2: and you know, I don't I've only been to three
Speaker 2: Broadway shows on Broadway. I do not pretend to know
Speaker 2: the ins and outs of how all that works. So
Speaker 2: at first I was like, oh, I guess things just
Speaker 2: have a shelf life. And then I stopped and I
Speaker 2: was like, wait a minute, how long did Cats run?
Speaker 2: How long did Chicago run? How? You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2: So the opera is that part, that part the things
Speaker 2: that when I hear.
Speaker 1: Where was liam Is at five months? I wonder, right,
Speaker 1: where was Phantom at five months?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: I don't care if I ever say again it's especially fantas.
Speaker 2: There are shorter ways to kill yourself, right.
Speaker 1: You know there's a great line in Jeffrey that you know,
Speaker 1: lame is you know all that for toast like love
Speaker 1: the music, hate it? Yeah, but what are they in
Speaker 1: twenty five years or something? So? Yeah, where were they
Speaker 1: at the five month mark? Because that looks more expensive
Speaker 1: to produce, sure, doesn't it?
Speaker 3: And I you know, I don't. I don't know, and
Speaker 3: I don't want to pretend to know the math behind
Speaker 3: what's happening. I am literally talking about the sociology behind
Speaker 3: and the culture, the cultural appetite for the legacy pieces
Speaker 3: and or the new pieces. I've been having this conversation
Speaker 3: in LA around black theater and what stories need to
Speaker 3: be told, who gets to tell them? Why? You know,
Speaker 3: it's important for us to invest in black theater because
Speaker 3: I believe no one is coming to save us, and
Speaker 3: I know no one is coming to save us. And
Speaker 3: I don't know what that looks like in in in
Speaker 3: theory and actually in practice. I don't know what it
Speaker 3: looks like for us as black creatives to hold each other.
Speaker 3: I don't know what that looks like for us to
Speaker 3: put money into what we do so that we can
Speaker 3: benefit and get to see ourselves, which is why the
Speaker 3: last b ET Award was to me one of the
Speaker 3: best produced shows that I ever seen them do in
Speaker 3: a while. Right. It was so powerfully rich and satisfying. Right.
Speaker 3: The talent was there, the vibe was there, the energy
Speaker 3: was there, the community was there, the love was there.
Speaker 3: The joy that you speak of was true. It was
Speaker 3: present and almost you could. I watched it on the screen,
Speaker 3: so I couldn't touch it, but it was emanating through
Speaker 3: the screen. Right. I wanted to be there. And there's
Speaker 3: something that we do that know that nobody else does. Right,
Speaker 3: So I know that when black hands touch that thing,
Speaker 3: it's already magic when trans hands touched that thing, because
Speaker 3: you're talking about people who were told to, you know,
Speaker 3: make a dollar out of fifteen cents, right, and that
Speaker 3: is metaphoric. Right. While we survived ourselves in lots of ways.
Speaker 3: So I know when we think about our writing and
Speaker 3: our creative practices, it's going to show up. You can't
Speaker 3: tell me it doesn't show up.
Speaker 1: And it's I'm going to say it's a nuanced conversation,
Speaker 1: but it's not really. But you know that white lens
Speaker 1: does come in and say, well, what do you want
Speaker 1: because you don't want us involved in your ship, but
Speaker 1: you want us to support your shit. Right, But we
Speaker 1: hear it about that queer work, you know, and the
Speaker 1: ever present argument about, you know, should straight actors take
Speaker 1: gay roles? And I always give the same example, which
Speaker 1: was the whale boo Brendan Fraser, whatever gained weight, Warrifatsu did,
Speaker 1: did the thing. The performance was fine, it was whatever.
Speaker 1: But then he went on to say, this is my problem.
Speaker 1: He went on to say, this is not a gay story.
Speaker 1: This is a universal story.
Speaker 3: The fuck it is.
Speaker 1: The fuck it is how many straight people get fired
Speaker 1: from their job, lose their life because they're straight. Show
Speaker 1: me one and then you can tell me how universal
Speaker 1: the story is. That is a queer story, my friend.
Speaker 1: And the fact that you don't see it is exactly
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: Right, And it's the minimizing that erases us.
Speaker 1: And then right, and then they say, well, what do
Speaker 1: you want?
Speaker 3: You know we gave.
Speaker 1: It wouldn't have been made without milk, wouldn't have been
Speaker 1: made without Sean ta Maybe I don't know. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but you don't you want to hear a little bit
Speaker 1: and you want the work, but there's such fragility in
Speaker 1: the conversation. Yeah, and then we're the ones who are insane, right,
Speaker 1: black brown transit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a different breed because I don't know how
Speaker 3: the pretense thing works. Right. If I am a part
Speaker 3: of a community, I want to walk in with transparency
Speaker 3: and trust and believe that, believe that when I say
Speaker 3: that I'm committed to something, that commitment is fully realize right.
Speaker 3: And so when we talk about inequality or inequity or
Speaker 3: lack of diversity and look and exclusion, we're talking about
Speaker 3: sometimes people making a deliberate effort to do the thing,
Speaker 3: but they're not saying it. And that is when I
Speaker 3: don't know how to engage because your actions are not
Speaker 3: matching your words, right, And your words are not matching
Speaker 3: your actions. So I don't know how to engage with
Speaker 3: this facade.
Speaker 1: Right. Did I say I'd figured it out? I haven't,
Speaker 1: not at all, not at all, right, right, And I
Speaker 1: think that is the only approach we can take. You know,
Speaker 1: as humans that you know are marginalized for whatever is
Speaker 1: I to show up in authenticity and to show up
Speaker 1: and my word is my bond, you know, my word,
Speaker 1: and we keep doing it, and we keep getting, you know,
Speaker 1: toward it in a different way.
Speaker 3: I hear you. This might be a little left field,
Speaker 3: but stay with me for a second. Absolutely, you know how,
Speaker 3: you know how sometimes and this is something I believe in.
Speaker 3: I was once on a search committee at my former
Speaker 3: institution and we were doing a search for one of
Speaker 3: the upper positions upper administration. And we had just hadn't
Speaker 3: done the first round of interviews, and it was a
Speaker 3: zoom interview and a white woman had just been interviewed,
Speaker 3: and a white woman serving on the committee, after the
Speaker 3: interview ended said to the committee members, I like her.
Speaker 3: She looks like me. Huh, hear me, hear me out.
Speaker 3: We're interviewing for a position, right, a dean, a VP,
Speaker 3: whatever it was, and the person interviewing, the person doing
Speaker 3: the you know, the person on the committee said, I
Speaker 3: like this person, this candidate. I like this candidate because
Speaker 3: she looks like me.
Speaker 4: M hm.
Speaker 3: Too often, when the people making the decisions are a
Speaker 3: certain thing psychologically and sociologically, I'm sure you are. You are,
Speaker 3: You're drawn to, you are in alignment with you find
Speaker 3: an affinity for the thing that looks familiar to you. Right,
Speaker 3: the thing that makes sense to you, the thing that
Speaker 3: looks like you. And I have no doubt. That is
Speaker 3: why it's easy when you have an all white jury
Speaker 3: and a black defendant for them to go guilty because
Speaker 3: there's a disconnect. They don't. But when they see the
Speaker 3: little white boy, little Roger, because he's our next door neighbor, right,
Speaker 3: he's my nephew, he's my son, it's easier to have
Speaker 3: grace for the thing that is familiar to you. And
Speaker 3: so even with funders, it's easy for them to fund, support,
Speaker 3: advocate for the stories that they live. The story is
Speaker 3: that they see themselves in. The story is that they value,
Speaker 3: maybe intentionally, maybe unintentionally, but it's worth talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But but I'm going to insert a question and
Speaker 1: going to take a quick break. They did They didn't revive.
Speaker 1: They've revived fucking cats, the whitest thing that ever went
Speaker 1: on to Broadway. That's what they revived. I mean they said,
Speaker 1: let le let me take that ship. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is like the Chilling's of Broadway. Let me take the
Speaker 1: worst of what you got and show you what is possible.
Speaker 5: Oh and yet I just want to leave that spot
Speaker 5: and will be right back.
Speaker 3: That's true though, right, yes.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, and we're back. Okay, you're like, what this
Speaker 1: is like break.
Speaker 3: Break? It was a good break yes.
Speaker 1: Backshew, Yeah, they did this with cats.
Speaker 2: The chip Lins Are Broadway might be the subtitle to
Speaker 2: this episode.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but know what you're saying. It is true like revivals,
Speaker 3: how many revivals have been literally cut and paste, right opening, Yeah,
Speaker 3: and these people went in and they said, let's you
Speaker 3: give me a six and I'm going to turn it
Speaker 3: into a twelve. That was a random analogy. And they
Speaker 3: did it with flair, with with with with glitter, with stories,
Speaker 3: with vulging, with duckwalks, with fancakes, with twirls, and the
Speaker 3: people loved it.
Speaker 2: And I and you know, none of the So I'm
Speaker 2: thinking about that production of Oklahoma. The revival of I.
Speaker 6: Was just that was just in my head as well,
Speaker 6: right where they didn't change a single line of dialogue
Speaker 6: for a song or a note of the music, but
Speaker 6: they changed the tone, the tonal approach to the work,
Speaker 6: and it became it went from being this like corny,
Speaker 6: like heel kicking.
Speaker 2: Musical to like this dark character study and that survived
Speaker 2: long enough to tour, and that looked like.
Speaker 1: A pretty big cast to that part lot. But it was.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was a brilliant retelling. It really was.
Speaker 1: I was very surprised that I liked it as much
Speaker 1: as I did. We took a group of twenty five
Speaker 1: transfolk to see it because there were two trans cast members.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, entairly significant roles in the touring company, Sis
Speaker 1: who had been imposed.
Speaker 2: And Hennessey Winkler.
Speaker 1: Yes, Hennessee Winkler. Because representation matters. That got more time,
Speaker 1: didn't it. Yeah, I mean there was a chicken, a
Speaker 1: wheelchair and then there was like that.
Speaker 2: I mean, oh yeah, it had time whole major casting
Speaker 2: and and then do national tour.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how dark that shit was until they
Speaker 1: just like showed you. Well, That's why I wanted to say,
Speaker 1: oh my god. But oh my god, I remember seeing
Speaker 1: this is a high school production with.
Speaker 2: That, right, and I was I was low key expecting,
Speaker 2: like I was. I was not surprised that they didn't
Speaker 2: change any of the music and cats, but I was
Speaker 2: also interesting sing if they did like add more of
Speaker 2: like ut you know to it? Well well, but and
Speaker 2: and they did add that layer, but onto the original score,
Speaker 2: And then part of me is like, what would have
Speaker 2: happened if they would have, like, you know, actually altered
Speaker 2: a note of Sir Lloyd Weber's creation, Like, you know,
Speaker 2: how much longer would it have run? I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's just interesting like when you when you reek, when
Speaker 2: you what's the word revive the sacred shows and you
Speaker 2: do something new to it, like how much how much
Speaker 2: reverence do people like approach it with? Like you know,
Speaker 2: oh my god, they did what to cats? You know,
Speaker 2: oh my god, they didn't what to Oklahoma?
Speaker 1: They made it good?
Speaker 3: Well? Also that more to the point for I do
Speaker 3: have a question that I want to ask both of you.
Speaker 3: If you had your choice off a revival or a
Speaker 3: new work, what would it be and why?
Speaker 2: Instinctively I want to say new work? Why because I
Speaker 2: always like to see new things and new ideas. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, I guess it depends on revival
Speaker 2: of what and who's doing what's done?
Speaker 1: Right? I feel like Broadway for many years now has
Speaker 1: been a regurgitation. Yes, more often than than you know,
Speaker 1: we keep taking things like well people like that, so
Speaker 1: let's just throw it on Broadway and see what happens, right,
Speaker 1: rather than you know, Hamilton showing up out of nowhere
Speaker 1: and being this entirely new way of telling a story.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I want to talk about Hamilton talk. I
Speaker 3: would ask a question only because it's something that I
Speaker 3: think about now that Linn Manuel has the juice?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 3: Are people going because it's Linn Manuel? Or are they
Speaker 3: going because it's good and it's I'm not saying that
Speaker 3: it can't be both. I'm wondering if that's the thing,
Speaker 3: if you once you get the bug and you just
Speaker 3: start not rocking them out, you know, are people just
Speaker 3: going to show up and can you bet on that.
Speaker 1: It's I think it's because it's good.
Speaker 2: Well, yes, it is good, it is good. Or are
Speaker 2: you specifically still talking about Hamilton or just anything that?
Speaker 1: But he's done other things that aren't that didn't you
Speaker 1: know in the Heights, you know, well in the Okay.
Speaker 2: In its original run, like was there was nothing else
Speaker 2: like it?
Speaker 1: So that's true, you know.
Speaker 2: But I was going to say, like, I think it
Speaker 2: is a lot easier to bank on his name and reputation,
Speaker 2: but everything he's done has not been stellar, right, I mean,
Speaker 2: he doesn't do like he doesn't do bad like that's
Speaker 2: let's you know, be honest. He doesn't make things that
Speaker 2: aren't good, but some things are better than others.
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a hard question because we're talking
Speaker 1: about Broadway, right, and I mean we go to a
Speaker 1: lot of experimental theater. We go to a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, new work that in a fifty seat theater,
Speaker 1: and that's where those ideas park late and we've seen
Speaker 1: some excellent stuff.
Speaker 2: I guess it comes down to with the revival thing,
Speaker 2: like again, what is it and what is your approach
Speaker 2: to it? Like if you know, you said, oh, they're
Speaker 2: redoing Death of a Salesman, yond they are and.
Speaker 1: Right, people are I don't well going to see it?
Speaker 1: I don't care.
Speaker 2: Right, But if you say, like they're doing Death of
Speaker 2: a Salesman but it all women and it's in space, Okay,
Speaker 2: say more things, you.
Speaker 1: Know what I mean? Right, and I would go no,
Speaker 1: still still a no.
Speaker 3: I mean for me, new revivals that feel like new works,
Speaker 3: like I love that. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: It took someone my Elizabeth saying I went to see Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: It was fat, you know, the revival because when I
Speaker 1: first heard it, I went, why, no, no, no, this
Speaker 1: is something, this is incredible. Why And then she went
Speaker 1: and she said, oh, we're going right, we're going to
Speaker 1: see that. You have to see what they did. And
Speaker 1: she was right, she was right. I was blown away
Speaker 1: by this familiar old trait ish. What I thought was
Speaker 1: it is actually this very dark story and it was
Speaker 1: always there, was always right there. But you know, we
Speaker 1: get enough white people smiling. I guess everything looks like
Speaker 1: a picnic. I don't.
Speaker 2: That has layers.
Speaker 3: Well, that has many layers.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So I'm interested in revival, but it just
Speaker 1: it just feels like it has become this great regurgitation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think too, that is very true.
Speaker 1: Which would you?
Speaker 3: I like them both. I like both because my entry
Speaker 3: into both would be what's new about it? Why is
Speaker 3: it necessary? And how is it was it saying about
Speaker 3: contemporary society. I am not interested in regurgitation. I'm just not.
Speaker 3: But I'm also interested in another layer of it, which is,
Speaker 3: what if money wasn't then what if money wasn't in
Speaker 3: the equation, if it wasn't a money thing, same money
Speaker 3: was not in the equation, I wonder would we see
Speaker 3: more new works because there is a betting issue, right.
Speaker 3: People want to be risk averse. I don't want to
Speaker 3: make I don't want to put money to something that
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I'm going to get back. But at
Speaker 3: some point. But you did it with Hamilton, right, You've
Speaker 3: done it with you did it with Casts initially, You've
Speaker 3: done it with In the Heights when when it did
Speaker 3: come out Lion King, there was nothing like it at
Speaker 3: the time, right. And so if money wasn't an op
Speaker 3: on the in the equation and or on the table,
Speaker 3: would we see more new works? And I'm really interested
Speaker 3: in that because when we think about the intergenerationality of
Speaker 3: it all, how are younger creatives being wooed into thinking
Speaker 3: about putting something new on the stage. They can see
Speaker 3: that it is actually beneficial to be smart thinkers, new thinkers,
Speaker 3: creative thinkers, because in their minds there going well, it's
Speaker 3: not going to last, or oh, they're going to put
Speaker 3: more money into something that they can bet on. I'm
Speaker 3: wondering ring, what's the conversation around young creatives feeling that
Speaker 3: there's a space for them to be new original? There's
Speaker 3: nothing original, but you know, you get the gist new
Speaker 3: in telling their stories.
Speaker 2: Well that's what made me go back to thinking about
Speaker 2: the strange loop, like that was that was a risk.
Speaker 3: It was, it was, it was. But I also have
Speaker 3: a theory about that. There is something to bear with me.
Speaker 3: There is something about legibility. And I don't know, I
Speaker 3: might get canceled for this, I think, but there's a
Speaker 3: softness and an ease with which white people accept black stories.
Speaker 3: They want to see, they want to see the slave stories,
Speaker 3: they want to see, you know, the said slave play.
Speaker 3: At times, there is something about blackness asking for permission
Speaker 3: that makes white people comfortable.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 3: And and they're black. And unless it's a story that
Speaker 3: is centered around you know, slavery or centered around oh,
Speaker 3: the white saviorism, I don't know if black people feel
Speaker 3: because there we have to give them something that lets
Speaker 3: them leave feeling like, well, I'm one of those good
Speaker 3: white people. So yeah, I can relate to that, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean? If it's anything else of black
Speaker 3: joy where whiteness is not centered, yeah, we don't want
Speaker 3: to see that. Too many happy blacks, too many white
Speaker 3: blacks and dancing but not for us, right right, they're
Speaker 3: not really our entertainment because there is something to it.
Speaker 3: Black people should exist to entertain white people.
Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, compare and contrast that with theater. Yeah,
Speaker 1: queer stories. Yeah, you know, we've only just thought about,
Speaker 1: you know, telling trans stories that aren't a tragic warning.
Speaker 1: You know ace Ventura with the famous you know, vomiting
Speaker 1: in the toilet for however long, same thing we did
Speaker 1: with the Crying Game early nineties, you know, the big reveal,
Speaker 1: and and then of course the immediate reaction is to
Speaker 1: vomit all of that, you know, the silence of the
Speaker 1: lambs with the skin just on and on and on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, something just occurred to me.
Speaker 1: We don't like to hear, you know, necessarily triumphant stories
Speaker 1: where those queers just get to walk around being queer
Speaker 1: when we stuff ourselves into little boxes and what the fun?
Speaker 1: I don't want to watch them happy.
Speaker 2: Like that image, in that image from the Crying Game,
Speaker 2: and and ace Ventura like that the reaction to the
Speaker 2: Big Reveal, I feel like that did for trans people
Speaker 2: in the like it did the same harm in the
Speaker 2: public eye for the perception of trans people, the way D. W.
Speaker 2: Griffin's Birth of a Nation did for black people. Like
Speaker 2: that's the that's how you equate A and B, you know,
Speaker 2: and like those negative images are like where the foundation
Speaker 2: of our perception in pop culture, in popular media. It
Speaker 2: just occurred to me, I think there's something to that.
Speaker 1: And at a time when we look at the political
Speaker 1: landscape and the you know, the vernacular that you know
Speaker 1: is just too present. Whether I think it's a small
Speaker 1: percentage of people or not, I would I don't know.
Speaker 1: I would hope more people were interested in preserving something
Speaker 1: as innovatives, as queer affirming.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I also feel like.
Speaker 1: The new ideas I want to believe that about Broadway,
Speaker 1: and I'm sometimes naive.
Speaker 2: Right, I feel like the new ideas on Broadway tend
Speaker 2: to be more readily accepted in the plays and the
Speaker 2: straight plays as opposed to the musicals.
Speaker 3: I see. I see that.
Speaker 2: Like more more often.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: I think the revivals tend to get more play consistently
Speaker 2: in terms of musicals, just based on what I've seen,
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of plays I'm like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Oh I would see that, But you I don't really
Speaker 2: get that reaction so much with the musicals.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I will say too. Oftentimes I find myself
Speaker 3: thinking about the fact that Broadway has often times known
Speaker 3: as the Great White Way, and for a long time
Speaker 3: it's been centered around certain stories, the people who get
Speaker 3: to play the lead roles the cast. Right, you'll have
Speaker 3: a one black person every now and then in different shows.
Speaker 3: There'll be a black show, maybe one one every five years.
Speaker 3: And so there's a reality to the history of this
Speaker 3: this this this this culture, Broadway culture. And so when
Speaker 3: they start doing things, everything that's happening somehow has to
Speaker 3: align with what with what already exists, and that tends
Speaker 3: to be the metric. Right, They're they're gauging, they're gauging
Speaker 3: their success off a certain thing. They're gauging, you know,
Speaker 3: their their publicity, and their their their marketing off certain things.
Speaker 3: Everything is through their central lens. And I am wondering
Speaker 3: if it's time to burn it all down metaphorically right,
Speaker 3: so that we can build something a little bit more equitable,
Speaker 3: because we will not. There's no way once you have
Speaker 3: a system built on white supremacy. And I'm talking about
Speaker 3: lots of different systems within you know, the world, the
Speaker 3: globe world, If everything, if most things are built with
Speaker 3: this central idea, through this central lens, and now people
Speaker 3: are trying to find a way to comeback it without
Speaker 3: addressing the central thing. We're always going to come up short.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well, we were actually having this conversation. We
Speaker 2: were having this conversation yesterday. I think, like, why can't
Speaker 2: they make live screenings, like live streamings of Broadway shows
Speaker 2: more of a thing, or a pay per view thing
Speaker 2: more of a thing, Like there's that one subscription service,
Speaker 2: but like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, met Live was the example, right, Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: where they simulcast in a theater and I think it's
Speaker 1: twenty five dollars a ticket and it's as you know,
Speaker 1: as if you're there, you're seeing it right on the screen,
Speaker 1: and that idea, you know, is it possible to just
Speaker 1: to bring more revenue in right, to make it feasible,
Speaker 1: you know, everything being.
Speaker 2: And do they count that revenue as part of the
Speaker 2: success of the show, because you know, if your only
Speaker 2: metric is people physically getting their ass in the theater,
Speaker 2: then there's a certain level of economics that you know,
Speaker 2: surrounds that, because you know, your Broadway tickets ain't cheap,
Speaker 2: even the cheap Broadway tickets.
Speaker 3: Ain't cheap, right, and.
Speaker 2: You know, you also have to be able to get
Speaker 2: yourself to New York. So but if someone in you know, Podunk,
Speaker 2: Michigan or even like the South Bronx, you know, can
Speaker 2: get a twenty five dollars pay per view, multiply that. However,
Speaker 2: many like that would actually create equity, and then you
Speaker 2: would really get an idea of who wants to see what, you.
Speaker 1: Know broader more right.
Speaker 2: But then it's like, okay, well who do we actually
Speaker 2: want to see our see the shows? Then, I think
Speaker 2: is what that comes down to, because there always has
Speaker 2: been an argument about the elitism of Broadway, and so
Speaker 2: it's like, is that symptom or is that you know,
Speaker 2: a feature? Is it a bug or a feature?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, Well, we used to be
Speaker 1: able to go into I mean, this isn't what all right,
Speaker 1: Maybe it was fifteen sixteen years ago, but you know,
Speaker 1: my cousin and I used to take a long weekend
Speaker 1: go into New York and then you know, go to
Speaker 1: the TKTS and a half priced checkup was like forty
Speaker 1: or forty five dollars at that point. Oh god, you know,
Speaker 1: but a half price there can be over one hundred.
Speaker 1: It just depends on the show. But I mean that
Speaker 1: like that was the high end. We saw shows for
Speaker 1: thirty dollars.
Speaker 2: It's true.
Speaker 1: And so we would see a play, a musical, a play,
Speaker 1: you know, like we might see three shows in the
Speaker 1: course of a long weekend and we could afford to.
Speaker 2: Right, That's the thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know that we could afford you now, I
Speaker 1: haven't looked in a long time, but yeah, it is.
Speaker 1: There is a ladism involved. I just, I just I
Speaker 1: want to come backstory. I know, I want I want
Speaker 1: Tyler Perry to fund six more months of this instead
Speaker 1: of paying for another funeral. But you know, I want
Speaker 1: a lot of things in this world.
Speaker 3: From your mother. I think that I think what you're
Speaker 3: saying is is necessary. I think it's I don't like
Speaker 3: having these conversations after the fact that we're always reacting
Speaker 3: right writings, and so it just makes me go, we
Speaker 3: are the people front front ending this, Well, what if
Speaker 3: and how do we and what are we aligning ourselves with?
Speaker 3: We will always I will always fail. If I'm going
Speaker 3: to date a guy, right and the guys say, hey,
Speaker 3: I only like I prefer white guys, I will always
Speaker 3: come up short because I'm up. There's no way. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: we might go we might we might go get some
Speaker 3: coffee and we might grab a meal, bada bing bada boom.
Speaker 3: But I will always come short because there's a centuality
Speaker 3: to your attraction that I will never ever meet.
Speaker 1: I cannot imagine.
Speaker 3: But okay, you know, so that there's that. So I'm
Speaker 3: wondering if we're if we're going to be having these
Speaker 3: really robust conversations with everyone in the room. Are we
Speaker 3: willing to put everything on front street to talk about
Speaker 3: why we do, why we make the choices we make,
Speaker 3: why do we why do we not and why do
Speaker 3: we see so certain certain stories as not viable? Why
Speaker 3: are we doing this? And then there has to be
Speaker 3: a cleanse. There has to be a cleanse, and there
Speaker 3: has to be a meeting of the mind. And I
Speaker 3: don't know what that looks like, but it starts. It
Speaker 3: has to start with a shakedown.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just you know again, this point
Speaker 1: in history, this look around the rhetoric every fucking day.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a reason we don't record every week
Speaker 1: like we used to. My soul can't take it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I cannot sit with these stories week after week and
Speaker 1: try to delve into them and still function as a
Speaker 1: human I can't do it. And it's because you know,
Speaker 1: it's this full on attack, it's Project twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1: It's this insane government that we are living under right
Speaker 1: now that we swore could never come here. Well of
Speaker 1: course we know it could come here. And to have
Speaker 1: something this beautiful, pure magical that celebrates the very thing
Speaker 1: being degraded, the very people being degraded and decried and
Speaker 1: light about, good God, can we all send a dollar
Speaker 1: something to make this not happen? And I think that
Speaker 1: looks like right, what does it look like? I just
Speaker 1: it's to me, this is like I felt taller, I felt, say,
Speaker 1: you know what we need to renew, you know, we
Speaker 1: need we talk about self care all the time, and
Speaker 1: you know the work I do, and that was self care,
Speaker 1: talk about honey. And I looked and there's Cameron Manheim,
Speaker 1: like right over there, right over there, and we have
Speaker 1: a friend in common and we've shot a little video
Speaker 1: and send it to just and then that show it
Speaker 1: filled me, if.
Speaker 2: Not to mention me getting to meet hundredishs that like
Speaker 2: And I said, as he was autographing my play, well,
Speaker 2: I said, ten year old me is getting his.
Speaker 1: Love right, And just all of it, all of it,
Speaker 1: and that was special.
Speaker 3: There is so much sadness in the news of its closing. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but there's also I think joy in the fact that
Speaker 3: it did exist. And it's my hope that other producers
Speaker 3: that you know, will will look, will see, Oh my god,
Speaker 3: what what becomes? What comes? What happens when black queer
Speaker 3: people put their hands on something. I hope it becomes
Speaker 3: maybe a lit must test for the magic that we
Speaker 3: already know we possess, but that we continue to show
Speaker 3: to people. Sometimes they don't want to see, sometimes they
Speaker 3: can't help but see. But there is a beauty in
Speaker 3: it having existed that we cannot undermined, and we must
Speaker 3: must work to ensure that the work in and of
Speaker 3: itself continues to live. Yeah, it stays alive.
Speaker 1: And it's okay to say, I think we're just tired
Speaker 1: of you know, finding that pearl. Well, it existed, you know,
Speaker 1: it better to have loved and lost, better to have
Speaker 1: loved and held on to it for Fox's sake, right,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, but yes, you know.
Speaker 1: And the fascinating and again from a sociology perspective, is
Speaker 1: are the things that are coming out And I have
Speaker 1: true I have true dancer choreographers with me right now.
Speaker 1: So one of the narratives is the number of injuries,
Speaker 1: right and you know, we talked about that on the
Speaker 1: way home. You know, ballroom and Broadway and and you
Speaker 1: here in this particular space know the rigors of dancing
Speaker 1: on Broadway and you know, eight shows a week and
Speaker 1: all of that. But they're acting as if that played
Speaker 1: some role. And I'm not sure that it did. I
Speaker 1: don't know now, you know, but we have no there's
Speaker 1: no dearth of talented people to fill that stage. We're
Speaker 1: only talking thirty people. You know. One of them is
Speaker 1: Andrea Shields and he's fine, and the other one is
Speaker 1: Junior Lebasia and you know, unless she trips, she gonna
Speaker 1: be fine too. Like so you know, it can be
Speaker 1: a movable cast, is my point, because this is very
Speaker 1: physical work. But what do you say to that? Just
Speaker 1: let's cover it.
Speaker 3: I must say this. I must say this. I danced
Speaker 3: in The Lion King for eight years, seven years, seven years,
Speaker 3: two thousand and two thousand and eight, seven years, and
Speaker 3: we're talking about dancing on a rig on the stage
Speaker 3: that was hard before they did the renovation on the
Speaker 3: stage for what it is now wearing a forty pound puppet. Right,
Speaker 3: So injuries was happening. We were getting injured, but it
Speaker 3: wasn't because because we were getting injured, it had to
Speaker 3: become a part of the conversation, what do we then
Speaker 3: now do to ensure that the dancers stay safe. And
Speaker 3: it was a conversation that had been having we had
Speaker 3: to have with the dancers, with equity, with the producers
Speaker 3: and with the entire creative team, and we work together
Speaker 3: to make it happen. So that can be the excuse.
Speaker 3: Injuries cannot be the excuse people on Broadway get injured.
Speaker 3: That's just my happenings.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Performers get injured if you are doing if you're going
Speaker 3: to be doing a shablam, you might tweak a something, right,
Speaker 3: you might tweak something. And so it's important for the
Speaker 3: planning to incorporate those elements you and or for the
Speaker 3: choreographer with beautiful choreography to that Okay, maybe we can't
Speaker 3: do that eight times a week, maybe we do, right,
Speaker 3: So to figure out how to you know, alter the
Speaker 3: choreography to be able to do the thing within the
Speaker 3: confines of or we say okay, because it's so physically demanding.
Speaker 3: We're only doing four shows a week. There are ways
Speaker 3: around ensuring that this story stayed alive.
Speaker 1: Let's let's highlight a different days. Right, you're gonna do that.
Speaker 1: You'll do a desktop on Monday or not? You know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Tuesday, Thursday is your death drop. You're
Speaker 1: on Wednesday. Like, we could work this out if we
Speaker 1: wanted to, right, because the Line King didn't close because
Speaker 1: of injuries.
Speaker 3: It's twenty five years now.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I saw it for the first time two years ago.
Speaker 3: Did you really you didn't see me in the Lion King?
Speaker 1: I didn't.
Speaker 3: You didn't you didn't see the real Lion King? Then,
Speaker 3: I don't think you know.
Speaker 1: And I had an opinion about that in the beginning
Speaker 1: because I'm like, oh fuck, now we're now we're going
Speaker 1: to Disney for ship because we can't have it. And
Speaker 1: then you know, it is something spectacular, It is something.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's magnificent And Garth Fagan's name still makes me.
Speaker 3: The open circle of life in The Lion King still
Speaker 3: gets me, give me goose bumps and make me cry.
Speaker 3: It is one of the most magical openings in Broadway history.
Speaker 1: I got a.
Speaker 2: When when it was first announced that The Lion King
Speaker 2: is going to be a musical, I honestly will tell
Speaker 2: you I wasn't gonna give a shit until I heard
Speaker 2: Garth Fagan was the choreographer. Then I immediately gave a
Speaker 2: shit because I'm like, Okay, Garth Fagan choreographing with the
Speaker 2: Lion King, that is gonna be good, no matter what
Speaker 2: else happens, is gonna be good. And I think I
Speaker 2: was right.
Speaker 3: Listen, I'm gonna tell you something about Lion King and
Speaker 3: Garth Fagan too though. That Linus Chant, I think that
Speaker 3: won him that Tony. That Linus Chant is the single
Speaker 3: most example of what choreo musicality is and of what
Speaker 3: storytelling through choreography is. That lioness chant whoo. And I
Speaker 3: was in the show so I got to see it.
Speaker 3: But those women as lionesses and the singers, singers and
Speaker 3: dancers one of the best dance numbers that told a story.
Speaker 3: That twun't oh when that when that gazelle goes by
Speaker 3: and they all went go go Goleth. But no, yeah,
Speaker 3: there's that, But I do believe that there is. I
Speaker 3: don't know if there's a I know that responding we're
Speaker 3: all responding now, and the response is a good thing
Speaker 3: because we're all saying this should not have happened. And
Speaker 3: when when you have that many voices saying a thing,
Speaker 3: then it's then we we it's necessary for us to
Speaker 3: do a revisit. Where did we go wrong? What could
Speaker 3: we have done better? What was missing in the conversation?
Speaker 3: You know, whose voices were not being heard? What needed
Speaker 3: to be done to ensure there something was missing? And
Speaker 3: someone fell off? Because this is too too necessary, too
Speaker 3: rich to present to contemporary for it to not have
Speaker 3: been supported the way it should have been supported.
Speaker 2: And I think that the powers that be might have
Speaker 2: tried to treat it like any other show and it
Speaker 2: was not right, Like for when we were talking about
Speaker 2: like treating injuries, like I'm just thinking about like those
Speaker 2: children's knees. Because you can duck walk for five minutes
Speaker 2: at a ball once a week. That is different than
Speaker 2: doing that shit eight shows a week. Their their cartilage
Speaker 2: is mush. But then you know what I'm saying, and
Speaker 2: that's that's a focus that needs to be a specialized
Speaker 2: focus and needs to be paid attention to. You know.
Speaker 2: There it's a different skill set and I think like
Speaker 2: when you treat things like a novelty, which I think
Speaker 2: is ultimately what this was for some people, you don't
Speaker 2: think about the specialized needs of the specialized skill set
Speaker 2: and the specialized community.
Speaker 3: Right, you know, I wonder, I wondered, Charles, was that
Speaker 3: a part of the conversation, right, when you have a
Speaker 3: creative team and you have some and you have people
Speaker 3: in the room, no one. I don't know if anyone
Speaker 3: was like, okay, to be doing a death drop eight
Speaker 3: times a week, twice on Sundays, twice on Wednesdays. Is
Speaker 3: that What does that look like long term? I don't know,
Speaker 3: because there are there are tumblers in the Lion King
Speaker 3: Ray Mercer shout out to Ray was a tumbling fool
Speaker 3: like that brother was tumbling every night on that hard stage, right,
Speaker 3: and yes maybe he and he doesn't miss shows. So
Speaker 3: what was the conversation?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want one of those young people to
Speaker 1: think there was anything more they could have done. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's there's that in my that in my soul.
Speaker 1: I mean I felt their performances and again I felt life,
Speaker 1: I felt joy, I felt you know, this is trans excellence,
Speaker 1: this is black excellence. This we were just like and
Speaker 1: and queer joy, just the whole all of it.
Speaker 3: Huh. I want to push back a little, Martha, only
Speaker 3: because only because I love this idea of black and
Speaker 3: trans excellence. But you know what, trans and black mediocrity
Speaker 3: should be okay too, because white people do it. Oh
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. What we can't just be?
Speaker 3: Do you always have to be? I?
Speaker 1: Honey, I talk about that three and sixty four and
Speaker 1: a half days a year when we are able to
Speaker 1: you know, put this together and have this.
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, but yeah, totally like we should be able
Speaker 2: to throw some like thrown together nonsense out there and
Speaker 2: have it be accepted and tolerated and you know, just
Speaker 2: like anything.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but but to that point, you will always
Speaker 1: answer for black mediocrity. I will always answer for trans mediocrity.
Speaker 1: And you know, when we have our out lives, liars,
Speaker 1: we you know, I come from the land of broken toys,
Speaker 1: and you know, I put my head down a couple
Speaker 1: of times a day, and oh god, there's straight people watching.
Speaker 1: But you get you get to do that, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: And and you know, I get a little tired of
Speaker 1: being asked to answer what do you answer for them?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like you you all got
Speaker 1: serial killers to answer for baby, you know you have the.
Speaker 3: Pedophile and mass shooters. Yes, yes, you.
Speaker 1: Got the shooter right, you got all that mess. But
Speaker 1: yet you y'all get to be individuals, right when you
Speaker 1: are a part of a monolith. To be recognized for
Speaker 1: excellence means you are superior in so many ways. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I agree with you, But that's a whole different conversation.
Speaker 2: I've sarcastically done that before. Yea, as the representative of
Speaker 2: my entire race, I say.
Speaker 3: But it does happen. It does happen.
Speaker 1: It happens all the time. Yeah, well, what about this?
Speaker 1: What about it? I get tired, we all get tired of,
Speaker 1: you know, the things that come out as from you know,
Speaker 1: often well meaning people.
Speaker 3: I wonder, you know, with I don't I don't know
Speaker 3: the politics of the economics of Broadway with regards to owns,
Speaker 3: what theater and you know, gets rented watching for how long?
Speaker 3: But there has to be I know, there's a Black
Speaker 3: Theater League or Black theater constituents of sorts, And so
Speaker 3: I'm wondering what happens if we stop being redundant, right,
Speaker 3: we stop going, Okay, there has to be a pool
Speaker 3: of money that goes into ensuring that certain things get
Speaker 3: solidified as foundational I'm wondering what that looks like to go,
Speaker 3: We're going to take three new black queer or just
Speaker 3: square or a trance or an immigrant, and we're going
Speaker 3: to put this money into this person to build this
Speaker 3: thing for the community, for our community, and continue investing
Speaker 3: and reinvesting in this so it becomes a living ornament
Speaker 3: of what's possible when you put money into black permanence,
Speaker 3: into black and queer permanence. What happens if you fund
Speaker 3: the because in a way, we we have been doing
Speaker 3: this thing, and we continue to do this thing, and
Speaker 3: we do it un little to nothing. What happens if
Speaker 3: you put the money into the thing and watch it flourish?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Because, as our friend Kathy is find of saying, black
Speaker 2: people got money now, so why can't But then I'm thinking, like,
Speaker 2: if black people, black queer people, queer people exclusively were
Speaker 2: to come together and create this funding source, wouldn't that
Speaker 2: then be like outside of the establishment and therefore like
Speaker 2: push you know what I'm saying, Like, how how do
Speaker 2: you how do you take this outside money and use
Speaker 2: it inside the establishment without you know, the pushback, because
Speaker 2: you would have.
Speaker 1: As an insurance policy. Even what about that? I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, how do how do we ensure the white
Speaker 1: ship that stays around long enough to become iconic? How
Speaker 1: is that insured? Because again, I wouldn't have seen a
Speaker 1: lot of things with half priced tickets had there not
Speaker 1: been empty.
Speaker 3: Seats, right, sure, sure.
Speaker 1: Even sometimes for major things that happens, you know, but.
Speaker 2: Like I guess I'm trying to say, is like, how
Speaker 2: like how would that be seen as just you know,
Speaker 2: part of this status quo as opposed to like this
Speaker 2: special thing that also exists alongside, as opposed to within
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: I do, I do know what you're saying. You remember
Speaker 3: when you asked me to you know, what are some
Speaker 3: of the shows that we can do cross referencing and
Speaker 3: compare in contrast? The truth is that data doesn't lie,
Speaker 3: and while it might not be the full truth or
Speaker 3: the only truth, it's a part of the truth. And
Speaker 3: we have to be able to tell the story, point
Speaker 3: to the numbers and then say this could be an answer,
Speaker 3: it's not the only answer, And by no means am
Speaker 3: I saying that it needs to be segregated or separate? Right,
Speaker 3: It just has to be included and included with intentionality.
Speaker 3: It has to be a conversation. If a story that
Speaker 3: is not mainstream gets made, how do we protect it?
Speaker 3: How do we hold it? Bringing in a black faculty
Speaker 3: member into a predominantly white institution, Yeah, that's great, Now
Speaker 3: you can champion on diversity, but what are we doing
Speaker 3: to protect this black faculty member? What are we doing
Speaker 3: to ensure that this person who is now living in
Speaker 3: a predominantly white neighborhood feels and has contacts with Oh,
Speaker 3: this is where the church is, this is where I
Speaker 3: get to do my hair, this is this these are
Speaker 3: the these are the ways in which you can stay
Speaker 3: alive metaphorically but also literally.
Speaker 1: Right, and you know that's usually on you, right, that's yours.
Speaker 3: But but the community, if you know now that black
Speaker 3: stories are going to be introduced and invested in and
Speaker 3: or included, then the white majority of the Broadway sector
Speaker 3: need to then say, what do we do to ensure
Speaker 3: that this kind of visibility will be sustained, maintained and sustained. Right,
Speaker 3: they have to build, they have the people who try
Speaker 3: to have the who hold the what do you call it,
Speaker 3: the purse strings, the money bag. They have to believe
Speaker 3: in and value the things that they have not been
Speaker 3: traditionally present. They have to believe that it needs to exist.
Speaker 1: And isn't that at least potential? That is at the
Speaker 1: heart of this. It really is the broader conversation. You know,
Speaker 1: well we did it, but it wasn't an immediate success.
Speaker 1: Therefore and how right, so how do we say, well, okay.
Speaker 3: Wait, I don't know, but we have things to point to,
Speaker 3: right when we think about places like the met when
Speaker 3: you have a liantine price of Kathleen Battle. What's the
Speaker 3: other diva's name? Norman, Jess Norman? Right, Yes, people came
Speaker 3: along like it was one to they weren't all at
Speaker 3: the same time necessarily. Then these graves, but these black voices,
Speaker 3: they weren't supposed to be in that place, but you
Speaker 3: but you couldn't deny them, right, and so but there's
Speaker 3: also someone took a chance on them. And then we
Speaker 3: realize that, oh, this is a thing. We have to
Speaker 3: realize that our not only potential, our reality is ginormous. Yes, cats, cats,
Speaker 3: Though it did not last necessarily it will survive. And
Speaker 3: I believe this conversation, these writings, this this people, when
Speaker 3: people people, the fact that people saw what was possible,
Speaker 3: this is going to ignite another conversation, and that is
Speaker 3: what do we need to do to give it its
Speaker 3: second life? Because I don't believe it's over.
Speaker 2: And there's now a whole generation of people that truly Yeah,
Speaker 2: but there's a whole generation now of people that when
Speaker 2: they think of cats, they think of this version. They
Speaker 2: don't think of the version. So there's that and and
Speaker 2: two thoughts that were on my mind that I have
Speaker 2: to make sure I get out. One we kept calling
Speaker 2: them death drops. They are dips.
Speaker 3: What's the death drop?
Speaker 2: Actually, well, a death drop, I found out is when
Speaker 2: you go from either a standing or a crouch position
Speaker 2: and you jump slash fall back onto your butt with
Speaker 2: your legs and a straddle.
Speaker 3: That's that's a drop. Yes, But we're welling the death drop.
Speaker 2: So you know, right, I just have I just have
Speaker 2: to make sure that you know, like it's it's known
Speaker 2: that I do know the difference before someone says something
Speaker 2: about me. And also I do know, like for instance,
Speaker 2: beloved Camille Brown, once she got her first gig choreographing
Speaker 2: for Broadway and got nominated for a Tony. Then that
Speaker 2: led to more choreographing gigs, to directing gigs on Broadway,
Speaker 2: and so like, that's what gives me hope with Artura
Speaker 2: and Amari Uh. They created this wonderful experience choreographically for
Speaker 2: this and I'm hoping that will only lead to more
Speaker 2: work for them. And you know, that's one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why I was sobbing my full head off during
Speaker 2: this show, because I'm watching all these fabulous people on stage, going,
Speaker 2: y'all are all Broadway stars. Now, y'all are Broadway and
Speaker 2: it should be yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't want it to be.
Speaker 3: It's an interesting time, right, and it's never that right.
Speaker 3: But what it does show, and you talked about Camille
Speaker 3: just now, it's something I do not like, this idea
Speaker 3: of always finding one person. That person becomes the next
Speaker 3: the only person for the next ten years. But what
Speaker 3: this does show is that there are others. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: there's Camille, but there's Ore. There's so many other talented choreographers.
Speaker 3: We're amazing work and so this is one way for
Speaker 3: people to see what is possible. We have to just
Speaker 3: get out. We have to get out, and we have
Speaker 3: to support and we have to call things that when
Speaker 3: we see it, and we have to ask these producers directly,
Speaker 3: why won't you commit to funding, supporting and advancing certain stories.
Speaker 3: What's what is it? What do we need to do
Speaker 3: to ensure that we get to see ourselves represented on
Speaker 3: the Broadway stage? Four long runs?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I am, I am wrongly or rightly, Like I'm
Speaker 1: picturing one person pulled this trigger, you know, like mister
Speaker 1: Potter is somewhere going, yeah, well we're done with that,
Speaker 1: and then everyone else falls in line to try to
Speaker 1: make it make sense. But you know, I want to
Speaker 1: know who that is, Like, who gets to just go
Speaker 1: we're done, We're done.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: It didn't do what I wanted it to do as
Speaker 1: fast as I wanted to do.
Speaker 2: It, mister Broadway.
Speaker 1: Yeah, mister Potter on Broadway. I'm just picturing it. I'm picturing,
Speaker 1: you know, a self loathing fagot with all the money
Speaker 1: in the world going pointing the finger and said board right,
Speaker 1: and and yeah, I mean, I mean, I mean because yeah,
Speaker 1: and I and I just it's hard not to put
Speaker 1: this in the context of the broader narrative right now,
Speaker 1: you know, truly and say okay, for if indeed there
Speaker 1: is a majority of Americans who are not okay with
Speaker 1: what's happening, why will they think like this happen? You know?
Speaker 1: And I'm sure I and I know there would be
Speaker 1: the pushback up. You're talking about a Broadway show. We've
Speaker 1: got folks who are unhoused, We've got folks who have
Speaker 1: any you know, and that is true, that is true.
Speaker 3: But if we don't we can still have the same
Speaker 3: com We can have both conversations that.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Yes we can, and we need to because
Speaker 1: if we don't preserve the arts, what the hell are
Speaker 1: we doing that part?
Speaker 2: What are we fighting for?
Speaker 3: And the truth is some of these people who are
Speaker 3: no longer going to be out with a job will
Speaker 3: potentially be in a line waiting for something. So we
Speaker 3: can't we can't talk about one without talking about the other.
Speaker 3: We are talking about livelihood, but we're also talking about
Speaker 3: black and queer erasure.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, we are, yeah, yes.
Speaker 3: And so for me black and queer erasire is on.
Speaker 3: How is homelessness? Yeah okay, And so that we cannot
Speaker 3: I don't believe it's one or the other, it's both
Speaker 3: and right and so yes, people, another Broadway show will come,
Speaker 3: people will invest, it'll do well or not. But we
Speaker 3: have have to talk about relevance. We have to talk
Speaker 3: about permanence. We have to talk about representation, We have
Speaker 3: to talk about inequity, we have to talk about invisibility.
Speaker 3: All of those things matter, and it forces us to
Speaker 3: be critical in our approach to these conversations.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, hell yeah, and sidebar. I'm sitting here thinking,
Speaker 2: when is Builty Jones going chreograph on Broadway again?
Speaker 3: What was his last show?
Speaker 2: Spring Awakening?
Speaker 3: Was it? I thought he did one after? Did he?
Speaker 3: Who did Pailah? Who did fai La? No?
Speaker 2: That might have been Builty Jones? Now actually I'm actually
Speaker 2: not sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, someone tell me, Okay he did both? Phila was
Speaker 3: two thousand and nine Spring Awakening? Oh he did Paradise Square.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, good, shut me up, Never mind, good.
Speaker 1: I'm glad when you're gonna notice what he's doing.
Speaker 2: Is the question fair?
Speaker 1: We've got a different question now, don't we bear?
Speaker 2: I will shed the fuck up now.
Speaker 3: So this is what I want to ask. What do
Speaker 3: we do now? What happens now? In your right beautiful
Speaker 3: minds what happens now, Like where do we go from here?
Speaker 1: Someone figures out how to ensure that this has longevity
Speaker 1: and this nightmare goes away. That's always my wish, and
Speaker 1: it never happens, but it's always my wish, Like somebody
Speaker 1: will swoop in and say, this is too important, how
Speaker 1: do we preserve it?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 1: And I think you're right. No matter what, it will
Speaker 1: live on, it will continue to happen, it will be reimagined.
Speaker 1: I think that that's true. I'm just tired of scraps.
Speaker 1: I'm just tired of the dismissal of it all, you know.
Speaker 1: And I wanted to have this conversation because I just, hey,
Speaker 1: it's not yet a post mortem, and I'm tired of
Speaker 1: of who controls them conversations. You know. The playbill article
Speaker 1: is Andrew Lloyd Webber and what he has to say
Speaker 1: about this whole thing. Okay, all right, I mean, you know, but.
Speaker 3: I have this thing. I have this thing that I
Speaker 3: called Wildless Imaginings, and it's something that I do when
Speaker 3: I do whatever workshops that I lead, and I at
Speaker 3: the very end, I always there's going to be like
Speaker 3: a call to action, right, But it's lubricated by lubricated
Speaker 3: by wireless imaginings. If there were no barriers, what would
Speaker 3: it look like for Broadway shows with those who have
Speaker 3: been historically minoritized? What would it look like for that
Speaker 3: show to do well and for it to have a
Speaker 3: long run and for the performers and the creative team
Speaker 3: to be black and queer and completely joyous and successful.
Speaker 3: What does that look like? Wiless imaginings.
Speaker 1: It looks like whatever's happening that kept lame is alive
Speaker 1: or phantom of bed. I mean, you know, sorry, but
Speaker 1: you know that it also is a model I have.
Speaker 1: It looks like people are going to stay invested and
Speaker 1: put their money there and you know, take some losses
Speaker 1: for a longer period of time. And I think, God,
Speaker 1: it also looks like theaters like the one we were
Speaker 1: in where it's full of full of black and brown
Speaker 1: people with seven to twenty white people as opposed to
Speaker 1: the reverse.
Speaker 2: Right, which is what it was.
Speaker 1: Because I was like, you always count, Yeah I didn't.
Speaker 2: I always play count.
Speaker 1: You always count?
Speaker 2: And I I saw twenty really that at Cats. I
Speaker 2: mean that I could see in front of me, and
Speaker 2: you know, it's just interesting. It's like all of this
Speaker 2: black and brown queerness on stage, and it's like all
Speaker 2: these white people that are the ones consuming it, and
Speaker 2: you know, fine, I'm you know great, But what would
Speaker 2: it mean for a theater full of black and brown
Speaker 2: people to like also consume this on this just that's
Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing that I'm gridding.
Speaker 3: I'm gridding because what you're saying is so true, and
Speaker 3: I want to I do want to ensure that I
Speaker 3: insert this part of my perspective into the conversation because
Speaker 3: it's it's around this idea of value, right volume culture,
Speaker 3: voguing queerness in the arts, black perspectives through through through
Speaker 3: through a certain lens. And I think about, Hi, your
Speaker 3: education and how you know, certain dance forms are not
Speaker 3: central to the curriculum. Right, people will come to a
Speaker 3: dance rules and they'll get four years of modern four
Speaker 3: years of ballet. And all these other forms are electives, right,
Speaker 3: whether it be hip hop, whether it be flamenco, whether
Speaker 3: it be banatium, the all of these other forms are
Speaker 3: othered and they are electives. And what this says, it
Speaker 3: says to the institution, It says to the students, It
Speaker 3: says to the teachers that this is not something we value.
Speaker 3: And as long as that is the conversation in higher
Speaker 3: ed the training ground for potential Broadway stars, to say
Speaker 3: that these things are tangential, the ballet and the modern
Speaker 3: are necessary, as long as the voguing, the hip hop,
Speaker 3: the rapping. As long as those things are tangential, aren't
Speaker 3: othered and sidelined and marginalized and on the periphery. Then
Speaker 3: when it comes to what's going to be theater and
Speaker 3: or fully realized works, they're also going to be othered
Speaker 3: and peripheral and marginalized and sideline. Because we don't even
Speaker 3: want to teach it, then why should we pay for it?
Speaker 3: We don't want to tea where it is not something
Speaker 3: that will be t taught, would be will be you know, nurtured,
Speaker 3: will be elevated in the space, in the training space,
Speaker 3: Then by god, why should we pay money to see
Speaker 3: it on a stage Because it's not even something that
Speaker 3: can be trained, it's not something that's even taught. And
Speaker 3: so we have to have this these circular conversations around
Speaker 3: what we value, about what we we we deem necessary
Speaker 3: and what we call technique. Right, and so the conversation
Speaker 3: is layered and I'm digging through. You know, I'm playing
Speaker 3: dog with a bone right now because I'm digging to
Speaker 3: bury something. And there is a truth. I've served as
Speaker 3: a professor off dance for years enough to know that
Speaker 3: when we say we want to decolonize the curriculum, it
Speaker 3: means decentering something. And so if we're going to decenter ballet,
Speaker 3: I watch all them white professors go.
Speaker 1: But but but but but uh huh.
Speaker 3: Even though they were the primary advocates of decolonizing the curriculum.
Speaker 3: So my original question was, we just got ago.
Speaker 1: Until right until until there's a hint of I have
Speaker 1: to give something up right right.
Speaker 3: They don't want to imagine that, imagine.
Speaker 1: I want to decolonize. But what you're trying to teach
Speaker 1: me is that some of what I'm enjoying is because
Speaker 1: of colonization. And I kind of like it.
Speaker 2: Now, Why that's the difference between, for instance, not being
Speaker 2: actively racist and being anti racist.
Speaker 3: That's it, right, that's it, that's.
Speaker 2: It being an ally and being a co conspirator period period.
Speaker 3: Because now the work begins, right now, the discomfort begins,
Speaker 3: like who is willing to get up from the get
Speaker 3: up and give someone else a seat at the table.
Speaker 3: You're not going to do that, then shut your mouth.
Speaker 3: That's it, right, right, yeah, right, But so I do
Speaker 3: I do find it really necessary to talk about what
Speaker 3: are the things that we teach. Listen, lots of lots
Speaker 3: of schools, their African American Studies department, their Ethnic Studies department,
Speaker 3: their Black Studies department are being are closing right right.
Speaker 3: So it's it's from the top down, this idea of
Speaker 3: what do we value, what do we want, what do
Speaker 3: we want to explore? What are the things that we
Speaker 3: we think are necessary? And the things that are not
Speaker 3: necessary are going to be erased, are going to be omitted,
Speaker 3: are going to be you know, invisibilized. And so this
Speaker 3: is another example of that being the case.
Speaker 1: Truly, making room requires ongoing effort and education and yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes sacrifice and net part finding the folks who you know,
Speaker 1: see it in practice and say yeah, let's keep going
Speaker 1: with this doesn't happen like it should. And you know,
Speaker 1: the thing that gets to me, you know, Charles and
Speaker 1: I have talked about this more than once, is there
Speaker 1: is a white cynicism that happens, and we've seen it
Speaker 1: play out. I don't want to be too specific about this,
Speaker 1: but where we hire someone and you know, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: of a black trans person in particular, we hire someone
Speaker 1: who checks the boxes and shuts up the people who
Speaker 1: want this. But we hire someone who's not necessarily qualified.
Speaker 1: We're not going to help them. We're not gonna, you know,
Speaker 1: figure out how to create their success. We're gonna let
Speaker 1: them flounder. And then we can say, see, we tried it,
Speaker 1: didn't work out.
Speaker 3: And I.
Speaker 1: Would love to not believe that that end result is
Speaker 1: not a part of the original thought process, but I
Speaker 1: think it might be you know where it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: well we'll give you this. We probably won't, but you know,
Speaker 1: I've just I've seen it too many times where someone
Speaker 1: it's almost like fine here, and then when that person
Speaker 1: drowns because they were meant to drown and you didn't
Speaker 1: help them in any way, you can say, well, we
Speaker 1: tried it, right, instead of how do we create a pipeline?
Speaker 1: Instead of how do we ensure as you said, how
Speaker 1: do we ensure success? Because that should be a leader's role,
Speaker 1: right the people who I work with, their success is mine.
Speaker 1: That should be a part of leadership at all times.
Speaker 1: Is you know, it's not.
Speaker 3: What you're saying is it's it's it's titulating me. I
Speaker 3: love the word titulate, but there's stimulating me because and
Speaker 3: I don't know when it will come out. This month's
Speaker 3: Dance Magazine, I wrote an article about ethical leadership because
Speaker 3: I wanted to. I wanted to showcase and demonstrate how
Speaker 3: an organization or you know, an institution's responsibility should live
Speaker 3: with the dancer long past the final bow. Like when
Speaker 3: you hire a dancer, you're responsible for ensure that when
Speaker 3: they leave, they are prepared for the next phase of
Speaker 3: their life. I honestly believe that, and that is ethical leadership.
Speaker 3: So when producers take on a Broadway project, what is
Speaker 3: the conversation that goes from the initial reading, two five
Speaker 3: year run, final production? What does that look like? And
Speaker 3: there is there a plan or is it throw things
Speaker 3: in the air and hope for the best? Right you
Speaker 3: can a Broadway show of this kind go ahead?
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, then you have to think
Speaker 2: about longevity for whom you know?
Speaker 1: I mean, we could have the same conversation around elite athletes,
Speaker 1: right right, ethical leadership? Do we prepare them for what
Speaker 1: comes next? You know they've got this small window to
Speaker 1: make incredible amounts of money. And then what right, right,
Speaker 1: we're the ones who wind up injured, and what are
Speaker 1: we doing in that regard? Usually not much?
Speaker 3: I do. I think I think it can be translated
Speaker 3: to other art forms or disciplines. And I will say this,
Speaker 3: we're having these conversations around a certain type of body,
Speaker 3: around marginalized bodies. Think about it, right, the majority of
Speaker 3: the players in the NBA are black. I might, It's
Speaker 3: not that far off, right, so that the reality is
Speaker 3: we we're getting something from this group the NFL. We're
Speaker 3: getting something. And I will of course, you know these
Speaker 3: are millionaires. Performers are not millionaires, so now it's less
Speaker 3: you know, for them. But you're right, I was just
Speaker 3: I was in the body. Yeah, But the circularity of
Speaker 3: the conversation has to be that though, what does long
Speaker 3: term look like right for the sport, for the bodies,
Speaker 3: for the mindset, for the mission, for the outcomes. What
Speaker 3: does long term look like in a performance through a
Speaker 3: performance lens, for the production, for the creative team, for
Speaker 3: the performers, for the investors, for the audience members, what
Speaker 3: does long term? Because you want also for people, the people,
Speaker 3: the audience members to feel like, oh, I want to
Speaker 3: come to the theater because there are stories that are
Speaker 3: being told that I want to hear. Agreed, Agreed, Yeah,
Speaker 3: because you know what, I'm gonna stay in my black
Speaker 3: ass home and watch you know, love is blind. You know.
Speaker 3: We can do that or you can do interesting innovating work.
Speaker 3: Because when you think about the people who are minoritized,
Speaker 3: there are lots of us and I don't know, maybe
Speaker 3: the tickets are too expensive, certain people can't afford it.
Speaker 3: That has to be part of the conversation to what
Speaker 3: are we doing to ensure that certain people have access
Speaker 3: to Broadway show tickets? And no, Mom, Donnie's with the
Speaker 3: best he can. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: we have to do our part in having circular conversations.
Speaker 3: Tickets are expensive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and getting more and more so.
Speaker 3: And getting more and more because gas priceying going down either,
Speaker 3: you know. But it's never just an easy answer or
Speaker 3: an easy fix. It's complicate, complicated, it's layered, it's complex,
Speaker 3: but it starts with asking the hard questions and for
Speaker 3: us to all do the self introspection because we are
Speaker 3: we are a part of the conversation. We're also part
Speaker 3: of the solution.
Speaker 1: Right, and you know, yes, the accessibility of theater is
Speaker 1: a part of the conversation. This got to Broadway, right,
Speaker 1: And too often we don't ask that simple question, now
Speaker 1: what now what? And it's the question I wonder.
Speaker 3: I wonder with the cast and I would love to
Speaker 3: be you know, once a year when I was in
Speaker 3: the King, Julie Taymore, the creative team would come back
Speaker 3: and we do clean up weeks where the entire team
Speaker 3: brought Garth into the King, you know, Leba and the King,
Speaker 3: and they would sit on stage. We'd be in the
Speaker 3: house and they would clean the show, right, have notes
Speaker 3: and stuff. I would love to know with the producers
Speaker 3: and the directors and of the show of Cats, to
Speaker 3: be to sit and whiless imagining what would it look
Speaker 3: like for that show to continue and for them to
Speaker 3: as a collective find a solution like I don't know,
Speaker 3: I don't know. I cannot keep thinking through a white
Speaker 3: supremacist lens, right the things that have been happening. It
Speaker 3: won't work. So they have to somehow come back this
Speaker 3: with a new narrative. It has to be a different
Speaker 3: it can be the same approach.
Speaker 2: I would like to know what Laomi thinks not just
Speaker 2: as a performer, because she is constantly having the conversation about,
Speaker 2: you know, the fundamentals of ballroom and how like, you know,
Speaker 2: you we're letting pop culture dictate what voguing is and isn't,
Speaker 2: and people are starting to look the same, and we're
Speaker 2: getting away from like, you know, the foundation, and we
Speaker 2: got to keep that alive and cleanliness and technique and
Speaker 2: and you know, rehearsing and stretching and taking care of
Speaker 2: yourself and all of these conversations around ballroom. And that
Speaker 2: is why she's such a leading authority in the community.
Speaker 2: So like, those are the people that whose voices need
Speaker 2: to be in the room too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would. I would love for vogue to
Speaker 3: be in the curriculum of a dance program right, for
Speaker 3: them to and I know, I say, get me away
Speaker 3: from whiteness, but to have a codified vogue vocabulary. I
Speaker 3: don't know if that's if that should be a thing,
Speaker 3: but with room for for for for the Palanges to
Speaker 3: like do their thing, but I do believe they're there
Speaker 3: if it's taught in us in a way where people
Speaker 3: see the need for it. And I'm not we should
Speaker 3: not wait and seek validation from whiteness. I get that,
Speaker 3: But there are ways to augment and expand the curriculum
Speaker 3: by looking at what has been historically and and and
Speaker 3: and and institutionally marginalized and rework it so that students
Speaker 3: find value in the things that are not being taught,
Speaker 3: not mestream anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1: How do you know? How do how do we because sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know, do we reframe that narrative? Do we say
Speaker 1: how does privilege? You know? Because you can't really have
Speaker 1: the conversation without saying the word rightenness? But how does
Speaker 1: privilege fix this? You know? Because it often is who
Speaker 1: has it?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: So we've got the folks with the talent and the
Speaker 1: folks with the money, and rarely are they the same. So, right,
Speaker 1: how do we frame it in terms of because that
Speaker 1: it's what my always said, you know, when you know better,
Speaker 1: you do better. When you learn, you teach, when you have,
Speaker 1: you give. How do we get to that place? You know?
Speaker 1: Because I know what here's here's what came through my head,
Speaker 1: was you know, the and pose kind of framed it
Speaker 1: pretty well, like Madonna brought an awful lot of attention
Speaker 1: to what voguing was right in general, you know double
Speaker 1: edged Sword. You know, did she properly back away after
Speaker 1: she uh created the start? I don't know. I don't know,
Speaker 1: did she?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're you're asking all the right questions. I I
Speaker 3: don't know if people are going to be answering it honestly,
Speaker 3: and because of what I know, you're going to be
Speaker 3: doing this all for the next for.
Speaker 1: The next ten years.
Speaker 3: Well, I just wish some Like It's almost like when
Speaker 3: I went to grad school in Dallas, Like someone called
Speaker 3: me the N word, and I was like, okay, bet, like,
Speaker 3: I'd much rather you call me. I know where I stand, right,
Speaker 3: I know, not not the fox with you? I know,
Speaker 3: right If if I don't know, I'm still negotiating with
Speaker 3: you and inviting you to my house. And when I
Speaker 3: know how you write. If I know and I'm good,
Speaker 3: I'm anchored, call me a nigga. But are you gonna
Speaker 3: call me your friend? And da da da da dah. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that I can't mess with. And so when people think
Speaker 3: about spending money on productions, if I know an investor
Speaker 3: does not fund black works, then you don't need to
Speaker 3: do this for the money. Find a white show that
Speaker 3: you want to spend money on, and I will spend
Speaker 3: time and energy on curating and cultivating something else for
Speaker 3: someone that I know values what I present. Right, if
Speaker 3: we're not gonna be having honest conversations, we're gonna be
Speaker 3: having this ten years from now. This will be These
Speaker 3: will be the questions we're still asking because if I
Speaker 3: brought a producer literally got up and said, we do
Speaker 3: not fund black shows because we don't think that if
Speaker 3: they if they're gonna stand up, tents down and answer
Speaker 3: the question, then we might then go, okay, bet and
Speaker 3: then find ways to a solution. Right, we can't people
Speaker 3: voted for a person who is an adjudicated sexual assaulter
Speaker 3: like I. To me, that doesn't make sens So when
Speaker 3: you said when half of the people go, well, no,
Speaker 3: I didn't vote for him, was somebody did? Right?
Speaker 1: A third voted for him, a third didn't, and a
Speaker 1: third and said, I'm not even a part of this process,
Speaker 1: even though you will reap the benefits thereof But yeah,
Speaker 1: and that and that's why I say, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's as bleak, you know, in terms of how many right,
Speaker 1: but it's pretty bleak. And as long as we're holding
Speaker 1: onto those systems. You're right, I don't think we do
Speaker 1: get a straight answer. I don't think we do get
Speaker 1: an honest answer. It might be better if they would
Speaker 1: just wear a goddamn badge, you know. And that's why
Speaker 1: I wonder who is sitting there pulling the strings?
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I wonder, like, what would happen if the producer,
Speaker 3: before they pulled the string would meet with the cast
Speaker 3: and say, hey, let's let's look at the numbers together.
Speaker 3: Would that look like for everyone to feel like they're
Speaker 3: a part of the process. Right? They go, listen, we
Speaker 3: only have a million dollars and if we keep going,
Speaker 3: then this is gonna happen. And what do you think
Speaker 3: we should do it? And then they all together decide
Speaker 3: on a path forward that could could be. I mean
Speaker 3: maybe I'm you know, completely thinking too far out, But
Speaker 3: what if Julie taymoor Garth would put the old cast
Speaker 3: together and say, okay, the Lion King, we only have
Speaker 3: I don't know, two billion dollars and this can only
Speaker 3: last us for five years. What do we do to
Speaker 3: keep it going for the next five years? What would
Speaker 3: you like to do? Like for everyone to buy in
Speaker 3: and then everyone I'll go look, I'll take a piccut
Speaker 3: so we can all decide on this thing, collective decision making.
Speaker 3: What does that look like?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: What does it look like?
Speaker 2: True equity is opposed to just being a cog in
Speaker 2: the wheel.
Speaker 3: But I just want us all. I remember in twenty twenty,
Speaker 3: when you know, COVID has and then my school schools
Speaker 3: were out and I was still getting paid. So I
Speaker 3: felt bad for all my friends who were performers, and
Speaker 3: I was like, oh shit, and every now and then
Speaker 3: I will bend them ten dollars for a drink or something.
Speaker 3: But what happened was school was opening back up and
Speaker 3: the president sent us sent out an email and he said,
Speaker 3: you know, for all the faculty who were I think
Speaker 3: we were getting like a two percent raise or something.
Speaker 3: And because school's lost a lot of money that semester
Speaker 3: due to COVID, and students were now on campus, so
Speaker 3: all that money went out. They he asked, he said,
Speaker 3: would you faculty members who are expecting a two percent raise,
Speaker 3: would you be okay with delaying the rais so that
Speaker 3: we can keep the staff you know, employed, and you'll
Speaker 3: get your raise retroactively, like in six months. And I
Speaker 3: was like, absolutely right. It was a no brainer to me. However,
Speaker 3: I found out that a colleague said no, they wanted
Speaker 3: their two percent raise. We stopped being friends, right. I
Speaker 3: couldn't the mindset like we were doing this together. I
Speaker 3: always think of community, right, right, right? If I take
Speaker 3: a two percent, it might take away from Martha's rent.
Speaker 3: So how about I just leave it so that Martha
Speaker 3: can still be employed. I'll get my money in six months.
Speaker 3: I don't really need it, so let's just make it work.
Speaker 3: But you over here begging for ten dollars, crying for
Speaker 3: ten dollars. Come on, man, right.
Speaker 1: Come on? And I feel I feel like that if
Speaker 1: anything is what is diminished, you know in our current
Speaker 1: society is the idea of community, is the idea of
Speaker 1: connectedness that you know, Yes, we are. We have a
Speaker 1: conversation all the time. I mean, now that we live
Speaker 1: in New Jersey, we play exorbitant property tax, but you
Speaker 1: know what, we live in an amazing school district. And
Speaker 1: I want smart kids around us, don't you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? I want to do it because that's what
Speaker 1: builds a society, right, absolutely, And again what you're saying
Speaker 1: is correct, But that when there's a collective sacrifice. But
Speaker 1: the producer says here and says, but this is the
Speaker 1: return I have to see on my millions or else?
Speaker 1: Fuck it?
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not community center. Listen, we
Speaker 3: talk about village village. I always look at things through
Speaker 3: a hope framework. I try to. I also look at
Speaker 3: it through community framework. Right, who if I'm on a team,
Speaker 3: who is the weakest on the team? And what can
Speaker 3: I do to ensure that that person was the weakest
Speaker 3: is still a part of the team. Right, I don't
Speaker 3: cut off the weak link. I go okay? As a leader.
Speaker 3: As a leader, you ask what needs to happen? And
Speaker 3: I don't know. When you think about a Broadway show,
Speaker 3: there's so many moving parts. God, I don't you know.
Speaker 3: I'm not a producer, so I don't know. But there
Speaker 3: we're thinking about strategizing around funding, strategizing around leading, strategizing
Speaker 3: around creative leadership. And if you want to move away
Speaker 3: from a colonial mindset, if you want to move away
Speaker 3: from a white supremacist mindset, you're going to have to
Speaker 3: do things differently. And if you're not doing things differently,
Speaker 3: then ultimately you're going to get results that somehow look
Speaker 3: like we're not thinking carefully and intentionally about race, gender
Speaker 3: and sexuality.
Speaker 1: Boom, Well we know we're not right, No, we're not.
Speaker 1: And I guess that's the thing, you know, and the
Speaker 1: reason that I just want to go back for a
Speaker 1: moment because I think it's important to say what ensured
Speaker 1: time for these other shows to eventually, you know, if
Speaker 1: that was the case to prosper to remain, what what
Speaker 1: was the what was that that recipe? And what is
Speaker 1: missing in this one?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Is it just racism? Is it just transphobia? Homophobia? You know?
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 1: Is it those intangibles that God knows, we're probably never
Speaker 1: going to have an answer to, you know, or is
Speaker 1: there something? Is there something you know?
Speaker 3: Did it meet did it meet the the touring guys
Speaker 3: the metric to to get to tour? Because I think
Speaker 3: you have to do six months.
Speaker 1: That's what I thought, and I think I think no,
Speaker 1: And that's why why not at least that and let
Speaker 1: them talk, you know, to get to touring. And because
Speaker 1: that's I'm kind of hearing no, and what the fuck?
Speaker 1: Like please?
Speaker 3: Because I can see that tour right now. Absolutely, there
Speaker 3: are people in you know, Wichita cancers who are wherever
Speaker 3: bump Buck, Idaho who will have never seen a Broadway
Speaker 3: show and this means their first. My first Broadway show
Speaker 3: was Kiss of the Spider Woman with Cheetah, and I
Speaker 3: was in Toronto. Don't play with Me. I was in
Speaker 3: Toronto and I saw it and I thought to myself, like,
Speaker 3: first times are always so magical, right, I was in
Speaker 3: that house going I could not believe it. The first
Speaker 3: time I saw two men holding hands on Christopher Street.
Speaker 3: As a sixteen year old from Jamaica, this is where
Speaker 3: I want to live it. Those things last, they stay
Speaker 3: with you, and I just know that there is a
Speaker 3: baby in Montana wanting to see a show like Cats
Speaker 3: the Jellicle Ball that would change their lives. And we
Speaker 3: did our We did our babies wrong by cutting this
Speaker 3: too short. Absolutely, the world lost something.
Speaker 2: I didn't even realize that. That was the metric before a
Speaker 2: show is worthy of touring.
Speaker 3: Touring. Yeah, they have to be unbrobably for a certain
Speaker 3: amount of time and once you once you meet it,
Speaker 3: that tour come kicks right in and you get to
Speaker 3: to get your thing out there. And that's necessary, that's important.
Speaker 3: A show like Cats, the world needs to see Cats.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think another month, like why August eight,
Speaker 1: why are we cutting it at the knees? Was I
Speaker 1: don't know, was their political pressure involved. It wouldn't surprise
Speaker 1: me at this point that you know, somebody somewhere in
Speaker 1: this decision process went yeah, let's stop them at five.
Speaker 3: I will say this. And because I am speculating and
Speaker 3: we're just inating, what I do want to say, and
Speaker 3: I think is really important is that these stories, the
Speaker 3: people making these stories, the people realize rerealizing these stories,
Speaker 3: they're necessary. And and in talking about it, we're talking
Speaker 3: about the value of marginalized folks who are creating art
Speaker 3: because the art we the art, we create it, and
Speaker 3: it realizes a world where sometimes we don't even see ourselves.
Speaker 2: That part.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we are building a world that has oftentimes pushed
Speaker 3: us out. And if that's not the true definition of
Speaker 3: what equity is, of what goodness is, then I don't
Speaker 3: know what it is. Because we're building a world that
Speaker 3: oftentimes excludes us, and we're still saying this world deserves
Speaker 3: to exist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's worth continuing the conversation.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Indeed, Indeed, Gregory King, I can't thank you enough for
Speaker 1: joining us.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for trusting me with your space
Speaker 3: and allowing me to have a voice on it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I have a few This is not going to
Speaker 2: be the last time you join us at the Full
Speaker 2: Circle Table.
Speaker 3: I'm here for it. I'm here for a good time,
Speaker 3: not a long time.
Speaker 1: I have that maybe put this conversation into the world
Speaker 1: very soon, and I don't know, may bear some fruit
Speaker 1: and get some folks thinking yes.
Speaker 3: But yes, it was lovely spending the morning with you both.
Speaker 1: Thank you you as well.
Speaker 3: I really appreciate you both.
Speaker 1: Likewise you've been listening to Full Circle the podcast. I
Speaker 1: am Martha Madrigal and I.
Speaker 2: Am Charles Tyson Jr.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 2: Full Circle is a Never Scured Productions podcast hosted by
Speaker 2: Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal, produced and edited by
Speaker 2: Never Scurred Executive Produced by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal.
Speaker 2: Our theme in music is by the jingle Berries. All names, pictures, music, audio,
Speaker 2: and video clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of
Speaker 2: their respective copyright holders.