Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to Wednesday Service, Episode one, brought
Speaker 1: to you by Cult Conspiracy Podcasts. I just want to
Speaker 1: thank Jonathan and Jacob for this opportunity. I really appreciate you,
Speaker 1: and I also appreciate everybody that has been reaching out
Speaker 1: to Jonathan and Jacob, you know about Sunday Service. It
Speaker 1: was they were nice enough to actually invite me to
Speaker 1: do Wednesday Service as well. So I just want to
Speaker 1: let you guys know, I really appreciate you guys. And
Speaker 1: my show is Josh Monday Christian a conspiracy podcast. If
Speaker 1: you don't know me, my first name is Josh, last
Speaker 1: name is Monday, just like the day of the week,
Speaker 1: and I am your host of the show. And today
Speaker 1: is gonna be a little bit different. One thing I
Speaker 1: haven't done and haven't showed you guys on Sunday Service
Speaker 1: or you know this new Wednesday Service is me debating.
Speaker 1: So today I want to show you guys a debate
Speaker 1: that I did with a TIK talker named Peter Markley.
Speaker 1: He is a glober and he is a Christian and
Speaker 1: I am a flat earth, Biblical cosmology and Christian. So
Speaker 1: it's a pretty interesting debate. I want to give you
Speaker 1: a little history before I start. So I talked to
Speaker 1: him and he told me, you know, we both know
Speaker 1: that the Bible does not teach a globe, but you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to do he said. He told me
Speaker 1: he didn't want to do flat versus globe biblical cosmology debate.
Speaker 1: He wanted to do a debate on whether the Bible
Speaker 1: teaches cosmology period. So I was like, all right, cool,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm down to do that. I know the
Speaker 1: Bible teaches cosmology, and I'm ready to go, you know.
Speaker 1: And I started doing some research on him. I listened
Speaker 1: to a debate that he did on modern day debate
Speaker 1: with a flatzoid. Flatzoid's perspective is this channel, and they
Speaker 1: were going at it, you know, they were basically fighting
Speaker 1: and arguing, and it didn't really I didn't like the
Speaker 1: way it was meshing very well, you know. So I
Speaker 1: knew to come at this debate in a loving way
Speaker 1: and to try to make it so that I soften
Speaker 1: Peter up a little bit, you know, and try to
Speaker 1: be super respectful, full and super nice to him. And
Speaker 1: I didn't want our debate to look go sideways in
Speaker 1: any way. I knew that on the show that we
Speaker 1: were on is called Uh, What Matters Now? And on
Speaker 1: that show, I knew there was a den of atheists
Speaker 1: in the comment section. There's a ton of atheists that
Speaker 1: that go to that show and watch that show. So
Speaker 1: I knew that I wanted to make sure that we
Speaker 1: represent as Christians the right way. You know, we're not
Speaker 1: getting divisive. We're not divided, We're just not agreeing on
Speaker 1: a subject and just debating. So that's what I kind of.
Speaker 2: Wanted to do.
Speaker 1: And Peter at first he came out with guns blazing.
Speaker 1: You could tell. I'll show you guys, you know when
Speaker 1: I when I play this, he came out with guns blazing,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, we were we got passionate, but
Speaker 1: it was just a fun debate. So what I want
Speaker 1: to do is show you guys this debate. It was
Speaker 1: on What you Know Matters Now and it's about an
Speaker 1: hour and a half. If you guys could do me
Speaker 1: a favor, okay on Spotify, I don't really get to
Speaker 1: see your comments on the Patreon, I don't really get
Speaker 1: to have contact with you guys too much. So one
Speaker 1: thing you could do if you want to talk to
Speaker 1: me is go to my Instagram at Josh Monday Underscore
Speaker 1: Podcast and send me a DM and you can ask
Speaker 1: me for prayer. You could tell me, hey, I listened
Speaker 1: to this show, I like this part. Want I'd rather
Speaker 1: you do more of this less of that. Let me know,
Speaker 1: And I would love to have you guys's input. That
Speaker 1: way on the show's going forward, I can make sure
Speaker 1: that I'm providing you with the content that you guys love.
Speaker 1: I definitely love to do the Bible studies. That's something
Speaker 1: I definitely want to do. Then this Sunday, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be going over Exodus seventeen probably through twenty one.
Speaker 1: It should be very interesting. That'll be Sunday service, and
Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, I will be showing you guys some of
Speaker 1: my debates, and I will also be doing probably more
Speaker 1: New Testament stuff. That way, I could teach you guys
Speaker 1: the New Testament as best of my ability. I think
Speaker 1: that'd be very amazing. And I will definitely try to
Speaker 1: have guests on whenever I can. If I don't have
Speaker 1: a guest on it, it'll be just me and I'll
Speaker 1: just be teaching the Bible. Sometimes I'll have my brother on.
Speaker 1: He's the co host of Josh Monday Christian conspiracy podcast
Speaker 1: and he enjoys digging into the Bible, and it would
Speaker 1: rather obviously do who would honestly rather do Bible than conspiracies.
Speaker 1: I was the one that wanted to do the Christian
Speaker 1: in conspiracy stuff. I love conspiracies and ifacly I love
Speaker 1: the Bible and I love the Lord. So anyways, thank
Speaker 1: you guys so much for tuning in. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: you guys. Right now, I am going to play my debate,
Speaker 1: so big shout out to Osion from What Matters Now
Speaker 1: for allowing us to do that debate. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I want to go ahead and share screen and I
Speaker 1: will play it for you.
Speaker 3: You're fie.
Speaker 4: One.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Matters Now.
Speaker 4: We are going to be having debate between Josh Monday
Speaker 4: Christian and conspiracy podcasts, which I'm sure is not what
Speaker 4: he goes by, but I read the whole thing and
Speaker 4: Peter Markley and the title of this debate is does
Speaker 4: the Bible teach cosmology?
Speaker 2: So we're gonna try to focus on that topic.
Speaker 4: We're gonna have opening statements from each of our two debaters.
Speaker 4: Once they have the opening statements, I'm gonna give each
Speaker 4: of them time to interrogate the points of the other debater.
Speaker 4: So we're going to head and jump right in to
Speaker 4: either one of you want to volunteer to go first.
Speaker 2: I probably should have resolved this first.
Speaker 4: All but either of you care about who does their
Speaker 4: opening presentation first.
Speaker 1: I don't mind. Uh, do you want to go first, Peter?
Speaker 1: Or do you want me to go first? It's it's
Speaker 1: up to you. I don't mind.
Speaker 5: I don't really care.
Speaker 2: All right, Peter, why don't you go ahead and start
Speaker 2: us out? Then?
Speaker 5: All right, let me pull up my presentation and press
Speaker 5: the present button share screen.
Speaker 3: Mhm see.
Speaker 4: Uh okay, Josh and I can, you know, talk about
Speaker 4: something else while we're.
Speaker 1: Getting Yeah, no worries, all right, So.
Speaker 5: I can't really see stream yard anymore? Is this working
Speaker 5: it is we're seeing?
Speaker 2: Is Biblical cosmology a thing?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Perfect?
Speaker 2: Right ahead, start your timer and get your going. Okay,
Speaker 2: here we go?
Speaker 5: All right? Uh? Sorry, a little bit of a flood there, okay.
Speaker 5: Is Biblical cosmology a thing?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 5: There are no Bible verses on cosmology. Josh only thinks
Speaker 5: there are because he has certain starting assumptions. I'm only
Speaker 5: going to give two Bible verses. The rest of my time,
Speaker 5: I'll spend correcting false assumptions. Assumption one geocentric equals flat wrong.
Speaker 5: By the time of Jesus and the New Testament, the
Speaker 5: dominant cosmology of everyone in the known world was a
Speaker 5: geocentric spherical earth. In order to prove a globe, we
Speaker 5: do not need almost anything from modern science, physics, gravity, space,
Speaker 5: or heliocentrism. Then those things all you want, and it
Speaker 5: only only set you back so many centuries. Modern flat
Speaker 5: earth is a form of denial that is much worse.
Speaker 5: Assumption to globe equals starminism wrong. If you try to
Speaker 5: derive any cosmology from the Bible, you're trying to balance
Speaker 5: on a toothpick. It's just not there in the text.
Speaker 5: There's room in the Bible for a flat earth or
Speaker 5: a globe. The Bible doesn't care. Not so with Darwin's
Speaker 5: Descent of Man. The Bible gives an explicit historical narrative
Speaker 5: that is deeply tied to core spiritual doctrines, and Darwin
Speaker 5: tosses out all of that for a contrary historical narrative.
Speaker 5: Young Earth creationism has a strong basis in scripture. Flat
Speaker 5: Earth does not, if needed I'll say more on that
Speaker 5: in rebuttal assumption three flat earth is historical. This one
Speaker 5: is super dupor wrong. While most ancient cultures believed in
Speaker 5: a flatter Earth, it turns out they still had eyes
Speaker 5: and brains. They could plainly see that when the sun sets,
Speaker 5: it goes below the horizon, so their cosmologies had universal
Speaker 5: night time and universal daytime. Today we know the sun
Speaker 5: is always up somewhere, So nowadays the idea of flat
Speaker 5: earth can only exist by adapting. That started with this
Speaker 5: guy right here, Samuel Burley Robot and who had the
Speaker 5: bright idea of saying sunsets aren't real. In his eighteen
Speaker 5: sixty five book, he wrote, and I quote, although the
Speaker 5: sun is at all times above and parallel to the
Speaker 5: Earth's surface, he appears to sink below the horizon. This
Speaker 5: arises from a simple and everywhere a law of perspective.
Speaker 5: In other words, don't believe your eyes. Sun set is
Speaker 5: just an illusion because it gets too far away. This
Speaker 5: idea was completely new. It started with Robotham, so I
Speaker 5: call it robothemism. I researched extensively to find any ancient
Speaker 5: cultures that believed this. Besides a few tenuous scraps I
Speaker 5: found absolutely nothing. On the contrary. Sumerians believe the Sun
Speaker 5: traveled through a tunnel under the earth every night. Egyptians
Speaker 5: believed the sun god Raw traveled in a boat through
Speaker 5: the underworld every night. As texts believed the earth goddess
Speaker 5: felt to cootely Is swallowed and threw up the sun
Speaker 5: every night. And the Book of Enoch talks about portals
Speaker 5: in the east and west side to the firmament that
Speaker 5: the Sun entered and exited. Despite this objective consensus of history,
Speaker 5: the confusion here is immense. Flat Earthers use a bunch
Speaker 5: of these diagrams about Biblical cosmology. Well, who drew these diagrams?
Speaker 5: This one is from a scholar named Michael Heiser, who,
Speaker 5: with others like Paul H. Sealey, said the Bible authors
Speaker 5: believed in a flat earth. What kind of flat earth? Well,
Speaker 5: an ancient one, so non robothemist. If Michael Heiser were
Speaker 5: still alive today and we asked him to ancient Hebrews,
Speaker 5: where did the sun go at night? He would look
Speaker 5: at the Book of Enoch or the Epic of Gilgamesh
Speaker 5: and say, well, to them, it went outside or underneath
Speaker 5: the world. Heiser was not a flat earther, and once
Speaker 5: wrote this blog entry titled Christians who believe the Earth
Speaker 5: is really flat? Does it get any dumber than this?
Speaker 5: Those are his words, not mine, as far as I know.
Speaker 5: Because Heiser was so dismissive, he never took more than
Speaker 5: a cursory glance at modern flat Earth, so he never
Speaker 5: discerned the depth of exploitation that his work was suffering
Speaker 5: at their hands. Josh, these diagrams do not support your cosmology,
Speaker 5: and neither does any part of their historical basis, because
Speaker 5: you espouse robothemism, not an ancient cosmology. I don't like
Speaker 5: the term robothemism. While I give you the same offer
Speaker 5: I give every robothemist if it give me another neutral
Speaker 5: term and I will use it. Biblical or Hebrew are
Speaker 5: not neutral terms for your view. By insisting on these terms,
Speaker 5: you are trying to conflate two ideas so that you
Speaker 5: can claim false legitimacy and false authority. And Josh, this
Speaker 5: is serious. I hope you don't double down on this
Speaker 5: like Flatsoid did. If a person knowingly claims that his
Speaker 5: ideas are from God when they're not, that's a sin.
Speaker 5: Please consider yourself warned according to Titus three ten. So
Speaker 5: now that we have all that cleared up, we are
Speaker 5: finally ready to tackle assumption for the Bible reflects ancient
Speaker 5: nearies thought wrong. This is also a relatively new idea,
Speaker 5: and Josh, maybe you don't realize that it's pushed by skeptics,
Speaker 5: apostates and only a very modern group of Christian scholars.
Speaker 5: Let's look again at Michael Heyser. He believed the Bible
Speaker 5: is God's word, but that it also reflected wrong ideas
Speaker 5: from the time. This is a weird conundrum. To explain it,
Speaker 5: Heiser told a story of one adult using a child
Speaker 5: to convey a message to another adult. In this analogy,
Speaker 5: God is the first adult and the Bible authors are
Speaker 5: the child. So who's the other adult? Us? That's right.
Speaker 5: In Heider's parable, he put modern man not just above
Speaker 5: the sacred writers, but on the same level as God.
Speaker 5: He takes this from a secular approach called historical criticism
Speaker 5: or higher criticism, which is where we get things like
Speaker 5: scholars saying Moses didn't write the Torah. It assumes the
Speaker 5: Bible authors were first and foremost a product of their time,
Speaker 5: the same as other ancient people. But wait a minute,
Speaker 5: whatever happened to the idea of the Holy Spirit giving
Speaker 5: them special knowledge. There's a hostile form of this that
Speaker 5: openly attacks Christianity in a more naive form that Heiser likes,
Speaker 5: which only compromises on divine inspiration. When the Bible authors
Speaker 5: are silent, higher criticism says we can still read their
Speaker 5: minds by looking at secular sources. Basically, Joe Heathen thought X.
Speaker 5: Therefore Bob the Bible author thought why. That's the historical
Speaker 5: critical approach. The hostile form actually flips this upside down.
Speaker 5: Bob the Bible author only thinks why because he got
Speaker 5: the idea from Joe Heathen thinking X. Josh. Whenever you
Speaker 5: use Heiser's diagram or a Bible translation that says Dome
Speaker 5: in Genesis one, that's the bedrock of ideas that you
Speaker 5: are in brain. See the problem. If we believe that
Speaker 5: this is God's Holy Word, then we should reject this
Speaker 5: secular bias in all of its forms and simply ask
Speaker 5: what is the inspired author really saying? Which brings me
Speaker 5: to assumption five. A globe requires taking versus as metaphor wrong.
Speaker 5: Under the heading of literal, there are at least two subcategories,
Speaker 5: phenomenological and ontological. Phenomenology is the study of human perception.
Speaker 5: A phenomenon is anything that we perceive. Ontology is kind
Speaker 5: of the opposite, the study of reality itself, for the
Speaker 5: absolute nature of things apart from our perception. So these
Speaker 5: are big, fancy words, but the idea is very simple.
Speaker 5: We use phenomenological language all the time. Some examples, Joe
Speaker 5: stood on the roof and looks down the streets below
Speaker 5: swarmed with people the size of ants. Judy looked out
Speaker 5: the car window and watched the trees zip past. No
Speaker 5: matter how high you go, the horizon rises to your
Speaker 5: eye level. There's absolutely no reason to call this kind
Speaker 5: of statement figurative or metaphorical or lying. There are descriptions
Speaker 5: from an observer's eye, and it goes back to ancient times.
Speaker 5: Ontology is only eclipsed it in the last few centuries.
Speaker 5: So if he read verses from Joshua ten or Job
Speaker 5: thirty eight, is absolute descriptions. Whether you know it or not.
Speaker 5: You're reading through a modern lens. There is nothing in
Speaker 5: the text to even hint that it's ontological. The Bible
Speaker 5: describes events as they seem to the eye. That's it.
Speaker 5: It's really not that hard. And if you don't believe me,
Speaker 5: there's verses to prove it. Matthew five forty five and
Speaker 5: Ephesians four twenty six. These are my two verses right here.
Speaker 5: They clearly say the sun goes up and down, which
Speaker 5: if taken ontologically, would contradict robotemism, because you believe the
Speaker 5: sun doesn't go up and down, that it just comes
Speaker 5: and goes horizontally. So here you have no choice but
Speaker 5: to agree with me that it's phenomenological. Uh oh. If
Speaker 5: scripture can use phenomenology here and saying so doesn't mean
Speaker 5: we lack faith, then what about only your flat earth verses? Well, Josh,
Speaker 5: I think that's just about sinks your boat. If we
Speaker 5: account for a phenomenology, then you got zero verses left
Speaker 5: except maybe Rakia in Genesis one six, and without higher criticism,
Speaker 5: that really just means expanse more on that in rebuttal time. So, Josh,
Speaker 5: I have two challenges for you. Number one, your cosmology
Speaker 5: is robothemist, not not biblical, even by Michael Heiser's standards.
Speaker 5: If you disagree, show me one Bible verse that describes
Speaker 5: a robothemist local sun just one number two without being selective.
Speaker 5: Explain to me how the sun goes up and down
Speaker 5: in Matthew five forty five and Iphesians four twenty six.
Speaker 5: I want you to apply your own logic to yourself.
Speaker 5: If saying that's how it appears denies God's word in
Speaker 5: Joke thirty eight, and then it does so here as well.
Speaker 5: Give me a consistent terminudic not a selective one.
Speaker 4: Thank you, all right, great job. About eight minutes and
Speaker 4: forty seconds. Just want to be clear, there's no like
Speaker 4: saving time for later or anything. So you got your
Speaker 4: ten minutes and then no, so if Josh would go
Speaker 4: two minutes, he can't later in the bait saying I
Speaker 4: got eight extras I didn't use, give ten minutes for
Speaker 4: the opening, and we go from there.
Speaker 2: Josh, did you get his main points down? I assume?
Speaker 2: And are you yeah?
Speaker 1: Yes? And Peter, great job, man, great job. I really
Speaker 1: enjoy the way you debate, and I think you do
Speaker 1: a great job on your presentation, brother, just letting you
Speaker 1: know that well.
Speaker 4: I certainly love the throw and the Titus ad on Peter,
Speaker 4: holyw going hard.
Speaker 5: I had because of flat flat.
Speaker 1: I know is that it's okay? Hey, it's okay, brother,
Speaker 1: it's a good.
Speaker 2: Let's go okay.
Speaker 1: Josh, hopefully I can hopefully I can present my screen
Speaker 1: because my this is on one screen like of my internets,
Speaker 1: and then I have like another one that I had
Speaker 1: like perfectly for this, So we'll see present what I do.
Speaker 1: Just share screen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, click on that present at the bottom share screen.
Speaker 1: Oh, I see, there's a whole bunch. Okay, maybe I
Speaker 1: shouldn't have had so much. Oh, okay, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go off. I'm not gonna even do
Speaker 1: a share screen because I have too many screens open
Speaker 1: right now because I have a podcast I run and
Speaker 1: I have a bunch of stuff that I always pull up.
Speaker 1: So it's okay, So let me know when you're ready
Speaker 1: for me to start.
Speaker 2: Go ahead and get a start right now.
Speaker 1: Okay. So this debate is actually, does does cosmology teach
Speaker 1: the Bible? It's not I mean, does a Bible teach cosmology?
Speaker 1: Not not a flat versus globe. But that's okay too.
Speaker 1: But so what's the definition of cosmology. It's this science
Speaker 1: of the origin and development of the universe, right, So
Speaker 1: science is knowledge and then it's the knowledge of the
Speaker 1: origin development of the universe. Okay, so we have that
Speaker 1: origin that means the point or place where something begins
Speaker 1: or rises or is derived. The Book of Genesis, the
Speaker 1: word is actually beta sheet it's Genesis. It means the
Speaker 1: beginning or the origin. So right there, it's already it's
Speaker 1: already letting. God's already letting you know that He's going
Speaker 1: to teach you the origin of the universe, or what
Speaker 1: the I would say is the heavens. Right, So the
Speaker 1: definition of teaching is ideas and principles taught by an authority. Right,
Speaker 1: So let me just legitimize the Book of Genesis before
Speaker 1: we go there. And John five forty five, Jesus actually says,
Speaker 1: Moses spoke about me. I'm kind of paraphrasing here, and
Speaker 1: he says, if you do not believe the words of Moses,
Speaker 1: how you're gonna believe my words? So he kind of
Speaker 1: m legitimizes Moses right there. Numbers twelve, verses four through eight.
Speaker 1: The Lord is speaking to Aaron and Merriam. And what
Speaker 1: the Lord says to Aaron and Merriam is I come
Speaker 1: to prophets and visions and dreams, but when I come
Speaker 1: to Moses, I speak to him face to face or
Speaker 1: mouth to mouth, is what it says. In the New
Speaker 1: King James, which is interesting. Titus one two it says
Speaker 1: God cannot lie, right, and in Hebrews six eighteen it
Speaker 1: says that it's impossible for God to lie. Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: just letting you guys know that. And then in the
Speaker 1: Book of Genesis two four it says, this is the
Speaker 1: history of the heavens and the earth when they were
Speaker 1: created in the day that the Lord made the earth
Speaker 1: and the heavens. Okay, So I just want to let
Speaker 1: you guys know that. So it's already telling you right
Speaker 1: there that this is the history or the origin of
Speaker 1: the heavens and the earth. So God is already telling
Speaker 1: you that we And in the book of Genesis, we
Speaker 1: have the who that's gonna be the Lord God. He's
Speaker 1: the one that created the heavens and the earth. And
Speaker 1: we have the what day one God he separated, he said,
Speaker 1: he said he created the light right instead, at the beginning,
Speaker 1: God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth
Speaker 1: was the foreman. Boy. Darkness was upon the face of
Speaker 1: the deep. Spirit moved upon the face of the water.
Speaker 1: So now we have the Holy Spirit there, and we
Speaker 1: also have God, God the Father. In Day two, or
Speaker 1: he said he actually created light, separated light from the darkness.
Speaker 1: That's day one. Day two he created the firmament, right,
Speaker 1: So now we have the firmament created that the word
Speaker 1: is Rakiah extended surface. He does say expanse Peter. Whether
Speaker 1: you believe it's an expanse where God put the moon,
Speaker 1: sun and the stars in and it is space, or
Speaker 1: you believe, like I believe, where God put the moon,
Speaker 1: sent and the stars in the firmament, It doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: He's still teaching a cosmology here, right. So the word
Speaker 1: that I would have for the dome, it would be
Speaker 1: the CJB. Bible that actually says God said, let there
Speaker 1: be a dome in the middle of the water. Let
Speaker 1: it divide the water from the water. God made the
Speaker 1: dome and divide the water from under the dome from
Speaker 1: the water above the dome. So biblically speaking, there's water
Speaker 1: above the dome still, but that doesn't matter we're talking
Speaker 1: about does it teach cosmology, Yes, it definitely does. Day three.
Speaker 1: God created the oceans, the dry land, plants and vegetation,
Speaker 1: the dry land being the continents okay. So now we
Speaker 1: have the continents, the dry land, the vegetation, and then
Speaker 1: day four, okay, we have God creating the moon, sun
Speaker 1: and the stars also, and guess what he did. He
Speaker 1: placed them in the firmament. Okay, so that's what it
Speaker 1: says in the Bible. It says he created two great lights,
Speaker 1: the greater delight rule today, which is the sun less
Speaker 1: delight to ule the night which the moon. And he
Speaker 1: created the stars also, and he placed them in the firmament.
Speaker 1: Whether you believe the firmament is an expanse of space
Speaker 1: or you believe the firmament is a dome, they're placed
Speaker 1: in not inside of the firmament, but in or under.
Speaker 1: But you could say that it's an expanse of space
Speaker 1: as well, if you want to believe either way. He's
Speaker 1: still teaching a cosmology here. Okay, So now we have
Speaker 1: now we have so that is like the what he created. Right,
Speaker 1: So now we have when I believe, like Peter believes,
Speaker 1: that it's a young Earth, I believe it was created
Speaker 1: sixty six hundred years ago. And the why why did
Speaker 1: God create the moon, sun and the stars, Well, he says,
Speaker 1: and God said, let there be lights in the firmament
Speaker 1: of heaven to divide the day from the night, and let
Speaker 1: them be for signs for seasons, for days and years,
Speaker 1: and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven,
Speaker 1: to give light upon the earth. And it was so
Speaker 1: so he created them to He created the moon, some
Speaker 1: of the stars to give light upon the earth. He
Speaker 1: created it for signs for seasons, for years, you know,
Speaker 1: for time. Right, So we have that. So basically we
Speaker 1: have the who, what, when, where? And now we have
Speaker 1: the how. How did he create it? He spoke it
Speaker 1: into existence, So he's teaching you exactly the who, what, when, where,
Speaker 1: and how? Which is going to be all principles and
Speaker 1: ideas cre spoken from an authority. Now, when it comes
Speaker 1: to the Book of Genesis, I would say that it's
Speaker 1: a first hand account from God. It would have to be,
Speaker 1: wouldn't you agree? So all I'm going to say here
Speaker 1: is that this debate is whether the Bible teaches cosmology.
Speaker 1: And right now, I just went through everything just in
Speaker 1: the Book of Genesis, not even going through other stuff.
Speaker 1: But you want to talk about robothemism, right, I'm okay
Speaker 1: with calling me that. I do believe that the sun
Speaker 1: does does circuit the heaven, just like it says in
Speaker 1: Psalms nineteen, verses two through six. Let me go there
Speaker 1: real quick so that you understand what I want to say. Oops,
Speaker 1: my God, why did I do that? Okay, all right,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go to Psalms nineteen two through six really
Speaker 1: just so I could shut this down real fast. And
Speaker 1: first of all, it says, the heavens declare the glory
Speaker 1: of God and the firmament show it this handiwork. That's
Speaker 1: the first thing you need to understand. If you're taking
Speaker 1: away the cosmology from the Bible, you're taking away the
Speaker 1: glory from God. And if you're saying there's no firmament,
Speaker 1: then you're also you're taking away God's handiwork. If you
Speaker 1: click on that word, it's actually God's achievement. It says,
Speaker 1: day and today utter a speech to night and tonight
Speaker 1: show acknowledge. There is no speech nor language where the
Speaker 1: voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through
Speaker 1: all the earth, and their words to the end of
Speaker 1: the world. In them, He has set a tabernacle for
Speaker 1: the sun. The word tabernacle click on that. It means
Speaker 1: tent or it means Jehovah's tent. So God's tent, which
Speaker 1: is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber and
Speaker 1: rejoices as a strong man to run a race. He
Speaker 1: is going forth to the end of the heaven, and
Speaker 1: his circuit is to the ends of it, and there's
Speaker 1: nothing hid from the heat thereof. So what it's saying
Speaker 1: is is the is the sun is not going down
Speaker 1: underneath the earth like you're thinking. What he's saying is
Speaker 1: that the sun is going forth and doing his circuit
Speaker 1: in the heaven. Do you understand. So what it's saying
Speaker 1: is it's moving in a circuit in the heaven. There's
Speaker 1: three heavens in the Bible, Okay. First heaven is where
Speaker 1: the moon, sun, and the stars are located. The second
Speaker 1: heaven is called the firmament, that's Genesis one to eighth.
Speaker 1: The third heaven is where God's throne is located. If
Speaker 1: you go to a second Corinthians twelve, you're gonna see
Speaker 1: Paul talking about going to the third heaven. Okay. So
Speaker 1: also if you go to I don't know how far
Speaker 1: I am in time. I'm sorry, I haven't even been
Speaker 1: watching Doctor Jay. How much time do I have?
Speaker 2: Left, you have about two and a half minutes.
Speaker 1: Okay. So if you go to the book of Ezekiel
Speaker 1: one twenty six, it talks about God's throne being above
Speaker 1: the firmament. If you go to Ezekiel ten to one,
Speaker 1: it talks about God's throne being above the firmament. If
Speaker 1: you go to Amos ninety six, it's talking about God
Speaker 1: walking in the layers of heaven, right, and it says
Speaker 1: that God planted his vaulted dome over the earth. That's
Speaker 1: the nasb That word is actually called it's binding. It's
Speaker 1: binding Heaven to the earth. Okay, So when you talk
Speaker 1: about that the Hebrew cosmody conception, there's no portal for
Speaker 1: the sun to go down into Okay, there's nothing like
Speaker 1: that in the Bible, and there's nothing like that even
Speaker 1: in the Book of Enoch. Any ancient cosmology you're talking about,
Speaker 1: there is something about portals, Peter, but it's not talking
Speaker 1: about going underneath the earth. I don't know where you're
Speaker 1: getting that from. There's ancient cosmology that might have that,
Speaker 1: But the Bible's cosmology is God's cosmology. It's not ancient cosmology.
Speaker 1: These people are this is a blank slate that Moses
Speaker 1: had from God, and God told him exactly what he created,
Speaker 1: when he created it, how he created it, and why
Speaker 1: he created it. So if you're saying that cosmology is
Speaker 1: not teached in the Bible, no offense to you. I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to say that you're trying to be bad
Speaker 1: or you're trying to sin or anything like that, but
Speaker 1: you are taking the glory away from God, and you
Speaker 1: are also taking away God's achievement, you know. So I
Speaker 1: think it's very important, and it's the cosmology of the
Speaker 1: Bible is very important because there's there's conversations like we're having,
Speaker 1: and also when we have to go against atheists and
Speaker 1: debate against people that don't believe in God, we have
Speaker 1: to show him the glory and the power of who
Speaker 1: created it, why he created it, when he created it,
Speaker 1: and what he created. So there's my time, go ahead, all.
Speaker 4: Right, Thank you so much about nine minutes. So both
Speaker 4: of you did a nice job. Really appreciate you guys
Speaker 4: having a presentation for us an intro. So if you
Speaker 4: want to get your questions in, please jump those in
Speaker 4: right now. We want to go ahead and get those
Speaker 4: going so we can answer those at the end. If
Speaker 4: we get too many, we do not finish them all.
Speaker 4: If you give a super chat, of course we will
Speaker 4: get that in. But if it gets too long, we
Speaker 4: will cut it off and we won't be able to
Speaker 4: answer all the questions. So get those questions in early Peter,
Speaker 4: we able to any questions about specific meaning. Do you
Speaker 4: know the points that Josh was able to make and
Speaker 4: are you ready to go ahead and respond or do
Speaker 4: you needy clarification on any specific I.
Speaker 5: Have some notes on my own, but I would, I guess,
Speaker 5: appreciate if Josh could give any like summary of what.
Speaker 1: Is point you can just put like the who, what, when, where, why,
Speaker 1: and how in the book of Genesis. I basically stuck
Speaker 1: with Genesis because that's the origin, and that's the beginning
Speaker 1: of who created the heavens in the earth, why he
Speaker 1: created the heavens in the earth, what he created? And
Speaker 1: also in the beginning I did a definition of what
Speaker 1: cosmology actually is. It's the origin in the beginning of
Speaker 1: the universe, right and in the Bible it would be
Speaker 1: called the heavens. They don't have a word universe in
Speaker 1: the Bible, but it is the heavens. So my point
Speaker 1: is I'm not trying to try to tell you, like
Speaker 1: if the Earth is flat or if it's round in
Speaker 1: the Bible. That's not this debate. If we had this debate,
Speaker 1: then I would be in a total different ballgame. I'd
Speaker 1: be going over verse after verse. But this is more
Speaker 1: of does the Bible teach cosmology? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: That's what it is. This is not about whether the
Speaker 1: Earth is flat or not.
Speaker 4: This one that sounds good, So Peter, you go ahead
Speaker 4: and be ready to respond to that. I think this
Speaker 4: might seem a little bit intuitive. I'm actually gonna let
Speaker 4: Josh go ahead and grill Peter's points first. So Peter, Josh,
Speaker 4: if you want to go grill Peter's point, let him respond.
Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and do that.
Speaker 4: Time guys, I'm going to start a timer, and how
Speaker 4: much time you take, I'll provide Peter that same amount
Speaker 4: of Okay, I'll.
Speaker 1: Just say geocentric, not flat. That's absolutely correct. I definitely
Speaker 1: agree with you. The Bible does not say that the
Speaker 1: Earth is flat. If the Bible has a dome and
Speaker 1: it connects to the Earth and and everything that the
Speaker 1: that like, if I go if I went verse after
Speaker 1: verse after verse, which I'm not going to do right
Speaker 1: now to you, because that's not what it's about. But
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely okay with the with the Earth just being
Speaker 1: geocentric if it were a globe, okay. But I do
Speaker 1: believe the Bible teaches the Earth is flat, with the
Speaker 1: dome with the moon, sun of the stars in the
Speaker 1: dome with the with the moon and the star and
Speaker 1: moon and that over the earth.
Speaker 5: Can I interject I'm confused. It sounded like a moment
Speaker 5: ago you said the Bible does not teach that the
Speaker 5: Earth is flat, and then just now you said it does.
Speaker 1: I know what I'm trying to do is this is
Speaker 1: not about whether the Bible. This is not about whether
Speaker 1: the Earth is flat or not. This is not that
Speaker 1: the debate. The debate is whether the Bible teaches cosmology.
Speaker 1: So all I'm trying to do is your argument. You said, geocentric,
Speaker 1: not flat. I said, I'm absolutely okay with geocentric. I
Speaker 1: do believe the Earth is centered. And if the Bible,
Speaker 1: let's say the Earth wasn't flat, and I'm totally wrong,
Speaker 1: I'm okay with it just being geocentric. Okay, That's what
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say. Globe people's Darwinism very true. But if
Speaker 1: you talk about like the scientific trinity, like the Big Bang,
Speaker 1: like evolution, like heliocentricity, those all are kind of get together. Okay,
Speaker 1: So what you have is the reason why people bring
Speaker 1: that type of stuff.
Speaker 5: I'm not arbitrary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not going to bring it up because that
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with whether the Bible teaches cosmology.
Speaker 1: But it's it's an arbitrary grouping. But that is like
Speaker 1: a package deal. If you believe in heliocentricism, it's really
Speaker 1: no problem. But if you don't believe that, it's okay,
Speaker 1: no worries. But biblically speaking, we if it's not. If
Speaker 1: it's not, okay, the Bible's not gonna it's not gonna
Speaker 1: be like way off of what actually reality is. ATLA,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what that is. That's anything that God says,
Speaker 1: anything that's in the Bible is real, Anything that science
Speaker 1: comes up with that's all phenomenological because that's all from
Speaker 1: Earth trying to find out what perception it is. It's
Speaker 1: not all it's not going to be real or one
Speaker 1: hundred percent for me, biblically, the Bible is real. Anything
Speaker 1: else is phenomenological. Because that's their perception from earth. But
Speaker 1: God has given us a perception from heaven and He's
Speaker 1: created it.
Speaker 5: Forgive me if I'm wrong that it sounds like you are.
Speaker 5: You have the impression that ontology is somehow more true
Speaker 5: than phenomenology. Well, because you're saying you're comparing like things
Speaker 5: that you disagree with to phenomenological and you're saying God's
Speaker 5: word is ontological. Did you not see.
Speaker 1: All I'm saying is ontological means what is real. Phenomenological
Speaker 1: is like a perception of us.
Speaker 5: Our perceptions are totally real.
Speaker 1: They can be real, but they not all the time.
Speaker 1: If you're looking at the there's also a refraction and
Speaker 1: stuff like that and perception. So if you're seeing something,
Speaker 1: it could be off your eyes seeing it. And now
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's not real if you see it.
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is I believe anything that God says.
Speaker 1: No worries. Okay, let's go to your next stuff. Then
Speaker 1: no worries. We don't need to talk about that. Okay.
Speaker 1: So flad Earth is historically wrong, bro, this is okay.
Speaker 1: Flat earth is historically wrong. So are you telling me
Speaker 1: that Moses didn't believe that the Earth was flat. Are
Speaker 1: you saying that all the people back then didn't believe
Speaker 1: the earth was flat? Or do you believe that they
Speaker 1: believed that there was a globe spinning through you know.
Speaker 5: I am saying that anytime, we have a record of
Speaker 5: what ancient people thought. By and large, they thought the
Speaker 5: sun went away, gone like, not not too far away
Speaker 5: to see, but just outside the world, maybe under it
Speaker 5: or outside the firmament somewhere, so that it was there
Speaker 5: was universal nighttime in universal daytime. Moses is not one
Speaker 5: of those people. Moses did not provide enough detail about
Speaker 5: the physical arrangement of the cosmos for us to assume
Speaker 5: that about his mindset. And that's where I think Michael
Speaker 5: Heiser and like him are wrong, you know, because they
Speaker 5: look at other ancient sources and assume, oh, well, Moses
Speaker 5: must have been similar to these people.
Speaker 1: We don't know.
Speaker 5: We can't read Moses's mind. If he didn't write it down,
Speaker 5: then we can't. It's not our place to assume what
Speaker 5: was in his mind. So, okay, that's my position.
Speaker 1: No worries, No worries. Okay, So sun going into the earth.
Speaker 1: We kind of talked about that, there's nothing in the
Speaker 1: Bible that talks about the sun going into their whatsoever
Speaker 1: and anything that any like Pagans had and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not concerned with anything that they believe.
Speaker 1: Like an Egyptian talking about the sun going in the earth.
Speaker 1: I don't care, Enoch. I'm not saying that that's that's canon.
Speaker 1: I've never even provoked it, would invoke that, but it
Speaker 1: is something that is interesting, and it's a really good
Speaker 1: history like to read for history to find out the
Speaker 1: way that people spoke back then and to understand stuff.
Speaker 1: But it's not like I could say that it's canon
Speaker 1: from God's word and two Timothy it says that all
Speaker 1: scripture is inspired by God. Right, So I'm gonna read
Speaker 1: the Scripture and the Bible as if it's inspired Holy
Speaker 1: Spirit breathe. And that's the way that I take it serious, bro,
Speaker 1: And I know that you do too, because I heard
Speaker 1: you say something earlier where you felt defended by something
Speaker 1: I would do. But I'm just telling you the Bible
Speaker 1: says nothing about that, so that doesn't I don't need
Speaker 1: to argue that. I don't care about that, So I'm
Speaker 1: going into the earth whatever, Bro. Doctor Michael Heisner is
Speaker 1: not God or the Bible. He might have had had
Speaker 1: a presentation on this, but he does not believe the
Speaker 1: earth is flat. And I do use his diagram. Do
Speaker 1: you know why I use this diagram because he's he's
Speaker 1: being honest with the text, and he's showing a diagram
Speaker 1: if you took the Bible.
Speaker 5: Think he is. He's using the historical critical approach, which
Speaker 5: is not honest with the text, not at all.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, So being honest with the text is reading
Speaker 1: the text and if even if it challenges your unconceived biases,
Speaker 1: your preconceived biases, you still believe it. Bro That's what
Speaker 1: it is. And there's a lot of that with me
Speaker 1: because I didn't believe in flat earth or anything like that.
Speaker 5: When I did you absorb anything about my point of
Speaker 5: regarding historical criticism.
Speaker 1: All I'm not. I'm not absorbing that part because you're
Speaker 1: talking about what you're trying to do is you're trying
Speaker 1: to not make the Bible God breathed or or or not.
Speaker 1: You know, you're not. You're not making it like inspired
Speaker 1: by God. You're trying to make it like I'm Moses
Speaker 1: and I'm writing the Bible myself. But he's not doing that. Bro,
Speaker 1: He's writing the Bible. God is inspiring everything he's writing,
Speaker 1: and he's not gonna He's not gonna inspire him to write.
Speaker 5: A lot, Josh. That is not what I'm saying. Okay, please,
Speaker 5: that's what I was saying that people like Michael Heiser
Speaker 5: are saying.
Speaker 1: Okay, no problem, I don't.
Speaker 5: Take the historical critical approach. I reject the historical critical approach.
Speaker 5: I'm saying that the anytime you use Michael Heiser's diagrams
Speaker 5: or the Complete Jewish Bible, or you know, any kind
Speaker 5: of modern scholarly resource that uses the historical critical approach,
Speaker 5: that's what you're using. Unwittingly, I think, but you're you're
Speaker 5: accidentally embracing this bedrock of ideas where these scholars took
Speaker 5: this historical critical approach that rejects divine inspiration. I'm trying
Speaker 5: to I'm trying to draw your attention to that, because
Speaker 5: I think you would you would reject that reasoning if
Speaker 5: you understood that that's what it was.
Speaker 1: I would, so I will reject these you know.
Speaker 5: See that that's where this is coming from. When these
Speaker 5: Bible scholars say, you know, the he the ancient Hebrew
Speaker 5: scriptures say that the Earth is flat, or they teach
Speaker 5: this certain cosmology, that's where that logic is coming from.
Speaker 1: Well, that's not where my logic is coming from. And
Speaker 1: an interpretation is different than definition. So what happens is
Speaker 1: I went through I mean, because I don't want to
Speaker 1: be teaching something that's wrong. I mean, I'm a god
Speaker 1: fearing Christian. I fear God, you know, I don't fear man,
Speaker 1: and I let God be true in every man a liar.
Speaker 1: So when I'm reading the Bible, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be teaching anything on my podcast or to anybody. I've
Speaker 1: probably done fifty shows on biblical cosmology. Okay, I don't
Speaker 1: want to be teaching it wrong either. But I do
Speaker 1: go through the definitions of the Hebrew. I do go
Speaker 1: through the Greek, and I try to I'm trying to
Speaker 1: make sure I'm teaching it correctly. I'm not hysteric historically
Speaker 1: going back to like the Egyptians and the Mayans and
Speaker 1: all these different people. I'm literally going back to the
Speaker 1: Hebrew lexicons. I'm going to the strongest recordance and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to make sure I'm teaching it correctly. And if
Speaker 1: I am teaching it correctly. All God can say to
Speaker 1: me is, hey, at least you are being true to
Speaker 1: my word because I'm not trying to move it. I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to take the words and try to twist
Speaker 1: it like the devil would do in any way. I'm
Speaker 1: really trying to be honest with my audience, and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to be honest with people. And Peter, I respect you, bro,
Speaker 1: and I think you're super intelligent and you're super smart.
Speaker 1: I think you have a great brain, dude. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm just being honest. I listen to your stuff, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I think you have a great you have
Speaker 1: a great amount of knowledge, and I think that you're
Speaker 1: you probably are really good at taking information and then
Speaker 1: regurgitating it and doing it well at that. You know,
Speaker 1: I think you do good at that. So let's go
Speaker 1: with your Let's go with your no no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: regurgitating in a in a in an awesome way. Bro,
Speaker 1: you it's not good. I'm sorry. I wait, all right now,
Speaker 1: Look when you're talking about you're talking about that the
Speaker 1: Bible verse, I think I took a picture of it.
Speaker 1: We're talking about the sundown and dango a picture of that.
Speaker 5: You talk about.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I did a study on this, bro So
Speaker 1: do you know back then they did not speak Greek.
Speaker 1: When Jesus is on the Sermon of the Mountain, you
Speaker 1: know he's not speaking Greek, right, right.
Speaker 5: But the well language Matthew and Paul to write Greek.
Speaker 1: Okay, So when Jesus was on the Simmon of the
Speaker 1: mount he spoke uh, galley and Arabaic. So if you
Speaker 1: go to Galley and Aramaic and you click on sunrise,
Speaker 1: it could actually mean sunshine. Now I know that the
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit inspired them to write that. I understand, okay,
Speaker 1: But the Bible is not going to contradict itself. So
Speaker 1: if it's talking about the sun moving in Psalms nineteen two, right,
Speaker 1: and then like if you go to if you also
Speaker 1: go to Ecclesiastes one five, it talks about sun arise
Speaker 1: and sun go down, right, and then to King James
Speaker 1: click on that. It means the sun goes away from you.
Speaker 1: It's go forth and come forth. It doesn't mean to
Speaker 1: go down. So when it says arise and go down
Speaker 1: Ecclesiastes one five, for example, it says to come forth
Speaker 1: and to go Yeah.
Speaker 5: The case words are more ambiguous than the Greek. I
Speaker 5: agree with you.
Speaker 1: We're trying to and I know that the Greek is
Speaker 1: super at its own point. I don't know what we
Speaker 1: just came up, so the popped up. Anyways, I understand that.
Speaker 1: So those two are are good. I'm gonna have to
Speaker 1: take those verses and probably do like a bigger study
Speaker 1: on that because I don't I don't have any answers
Speaker 1: for you at this very moment, and I don't want
Speaker 1: to act like I do. But I did kind of
Speaker 1: study it a little bit because I did see you
Speaker 1: bring that up in the Flatzoid debate, and I was like, hey,
Speaker 1: that's a great point, Peter. And if it's and if
Speaker 1: I study it to all ends and the sun is
Speaker 1: going down, then I'm gonna have to change some of
Speaker 1: the stuff that I'm thinking about biblical cosmology. But everything
Speaker 1: that I've gone through basically in the Old Testament the
Speaker 1: New Testament, there's no there's no contradictions there at all.
Speaker 5: Well, we are gonna have to talk about it when
Speaker 5: on offense, we are gonna have to talk about your okay.
Speaker 1: Go ahead offense.
Speaker 4: That was about eleven minutes. So, Peter, if you want
Speaker 4: to take eleven minutes on offense. So this is the
Speaker 4: time where Peter kind of controls. So, Josh, if you're
Speaker 4: talking and Peter kind of want to redirect or interrupts,
Speaker 4: you know, he's kind of in charge.
Speaker 2: So we're gonna let him set the let's.
Speaker 1: Go maybe all respect and all glory to God, let's go.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 5: Well, I think a key point here is when you
Speaker 5: said that cosmology is the origin of things and and everything,
Speaker 5: and and that's fine, you know, but I don't want
Speaker 5: us to get like sort of lost in a semantic
Speaker 5: gutter here. Okay, So there's a difference between a historical
Speaker 5: narrative of where things came from, like how the universe
Speaker 5: came to be historically, versus and onto logical description of
Speaker 5: the shape and arrangement of the cosmos as it currently is. Now,
Speaker 5: do you see what I'm saying. There's a difference between
Speaker 5: those things. Obviously, if the Bible is making a historical
Speaker 5: narrative about the origin of the universe, then that's going
Speaker 5: to touch on some cosmological concepts. When I say that
Speaker 5: there are no Bible verses on cosmology, what I'm saying
Speaker 5: is there are no Bible verses that describe or endorse,
Speaker 5: or give whatever word you want to use here a
Speaker 5: specific physical model of what the cosmos is. There just
Speaker 5: aren't any Bible verses on that. So yes, most of
Speaker 5: the Bible verses you were citing. I was just yep, yep, yep.
Speaker 5: I agree.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: It's it's the difference between historical narrative versus an ontological
Speaker 5: description of a model, you know, or or of the
Speaker 5: arrangement of things. So, like I said, there's room in
Speaker 5: the Bible for a flat earth or a globe. And
Speaker 5: and I really I want to spend a minute on
Speaker 5: some nineteen. Did you have a response first before we Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay, So what's your definition of cosmology? The definition, the
Speaker 1: literal definition of cosmology is the science of the origin
Speaker 1: and development of the universe. That's what the literal cost,
Speaker 1: That's what the definition is. So I believe that I
Speaker 1: met that by giving you the what, when, where, and
Speaker 1: why of exactly how when the Earth was created, who
Speaker 1: created it, how he created it? I don't understand how
Speaker 1: that is not that that is the origin and development
Speaker 1: of our heavens or universe to a team.
Speaker 5: But what about the what like what did he create?
Speaker 1: Okay? The what did he create? I went day by day,
Speaker 1: day one, day two, day three, day four. I could go.
Speaker 5: Those are just the details that it gives, like individual
Speaker 5: parts of the cosmos. At no time does it say
Speaker 5: God created a globe or God created a flat en
Speaker 5: closed dome.
Speaker 1: You know, it says that he created the foundations of
Speaker 1: the earth. Okay, this is not this is talking about
Speaker 1: in Isaiah forty twenty two, he said in the beginning,
Speaker 1: II laid the foundations of the earth. Right. So when
Speaker 1: it says in the beginning God created the heavens, which
Speaker 1: is the Shamaim and the eret, which is the earth.
Speaker 1: God could have laid the foundations, then he could have
Speaker 1: created the light the darkness, right, and he could have
Speaker 1: created the heavens to heavens, not that firmament yet, because
Speaker 1: that doesn't come un til day two. He could have
Speaker 1: created the heavens where He's gonna put the word the
Speaker 1: sky is going to be, and his heaven where God's
Speaker 1: stone is located. Right. So he laid the foundations of
Speaker 1: the earth in the beginning, right, So that is like
Speaker 1: the foundation all right. He says that he created the firmament,
Speaker 1: which is a solid dome, and in Hebrew. It is
Speaker 1: whether you believe it's not, you believe that it's space.
Speaker 1: Whatever you believe it is, He's still telling you exactly
Speaker 1: what he created day by day. And even in Genesis two,
Speaker 1: verse four, he says, this is the history where he
Speaker 1: could say the origin of the heavens and the earth
Speaker 1: on the day that the Lord created him. He's telling
Speaker 1: you exactly what he created, where he placed them, and
Speaker 1: also the greater light to rule the day.
Speaker 6: Why he everything I said again, He's given a lot
Speaker 6: of teaching cosmology tail mostly chronological detail because it's a
Speaker 6: historical narrative, but nothing in that disambiguates between a flat
Speaker 6: or a globe.
Speaker 5: It just doesn't.
Speaker 1: This isn't about whether it's flatter globe. This is about
Speaker 1: whether the Bible teaches cosmology. Bron we could have had
Speaker 1: a debate, if you want to do a debate on
Speaker 1: flat versus globe. Let's restart this thing up brow and
Speaker 1: I'll go to different dates.
Speaker 5: But where I'm at right from maybe what happened here
Speaker 5: is that we agreed on you know, does the Bible
Speaker 5: teach cosmology? And in my mind that was does the
Speaker 5: Bible endorse a particular cosmological model, and in your mind
Speaker 5: that was does the Bible ever reference and concepts pertaining
Speaker 5: to cosmology whatsoever?
Speaker 1: There's only one cosmology available at all, Doctor j you're Christian, Peter,
Speaker 1: you're Christian. I'm Christian. The only cosmology I'm gonna follow
Speaker 1: is exactly what the Lord God himself would say. Why
Speaker 1: am I gonna listen to cosmology from flight fight the
Speaker 1: flat Earth? No offense Osian, Osian or all these people
Speaker 1: that are scientists. I'm The only cosmology that I have
Speaker 1: available and I'm gonna go with is the one who
Speaker 1: created it, the Lord God. Bro. That's the cosmogonist.
Speaker 5: So God manded us to subdue the earth and have
Speaker 5: dominion over it. He gave us. He told Adam to
Speaker 5: name the animals.
Speaker 1: It says, the earth no worries. So what does that
Speaker 1: have to do with the cosmos.
Speaker 5: It's our job to study God's creation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, oh, I'm sorry what happened here? I like
Speaker 1: Ozian man, He's a good guy. So okay, hey, this
Speaker 1: is what this is? All all I needed to do
Speaker 1: in this debate, because this is does the Bible teach cosmology?
Speaker 1: All I have to do is define what cosmology is,
Speaker 1: and I have to define define teaching. And when I
Speaker 1: define these two and I go through the entire book
Speaker 1: of Genesis, I'm showing you, dude, there's there's no debating this, bro,
Speaker 1: there's no debating this at all. Does the Bible teach cosmology? Yes,
Speaker 1: it teaches you to be.
Speaker 5: Technicality.
Speaker 1: I'm not telling what I wonder lost. That's not what
Speaker 1: it's about. What I'm telling you is God wanted God
Speaker 1: like me.
Speaker 4: Where we've gotten here is Peter was understanding cosmology is
Speaker 4: something different than Josh, meaning Josh understood it slightly more broadly. Peter,
Speaker 4: would you agree that the Bible teaches cosmology if defining it, Josh,
Speaker 4: but you don't think it talks about collegemology defining it
Speaker 4: the way you did.
Speaker 2: Does that sound accurate?
Speaker 5: Yes? I I agree that the Bible teaches a historical
Speaker 5: narrative about the cosmos. Yes, I don't believe the Bible
Speaker 5: endorses a particular cosmology cosmological model.
Speaker 1: Okay, do we need to go with what cosmology? Does
Speaker 1: the Bible teach? Is that what we need to get into?
Speaker 1: Because all, okay, there's no way you can.
Speaker 5: Thought that's what we were getting into.
Speaker 1: No, No, no, no, no, you're talking about physics now, astrophysics.
Speaker 1: You're not talking about cosmology. The cosmology is is the
Speaker 1: origin of the universe.
Speaker 5: No, no, okay, if you're going to make a distinction there,
Speaker 5: the correct term for what you're referring to is cosmogony.
Speaker 1: Cosmogony, okay.
Speaker 5: Cosmology is the study of the cosmos as it exists currently.
Speaker 1: And didn't I lay out exactly where God placed the moon,
Speaker 1: Sun and the stars? Where you put the sun, the moon,
Speaker 1: exactly where you put the star.
Speaker 5: Up details cosmogicle.
Speaker 1: You said there's not one verse that has to do
Speaker 1: with cosmology in the Bible. I just named like maybe
Speaker 1: at least Genesis one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Peter agrees with your definitely, if you use your definition.
Speaker 4: Let's try to focus in though, on discussing whether the
Speaker 4: Bible teaches a particular cosmological model. Let's use the word model, right, Okay,
Speaker 4: thank you. So I'm not saying your definition was wrong
Speaker 4: or anything like that. I'm just trying to kind of
Speaker 4: keep the conversation going, Peter.
Speaker 1: Peter did not want to go flat versus globe. I
Speaker 1: asked him, let's talk about does the Bible teach flatfirs globe,
Speaker 1: or we could do geocentric or whatever.
Speaker 5: The reason that I tried to steer away from that
Speaker 5: is because it is almost a universal tactic of flat
Speaker 5: earthers to say, well, show me a Bible verse that
Speaker 5: says the globe. That's a straw man. The endorses a
Speaker 5: globe cosmology. I don't think it endorses any cosmological model.
Speaker 5: So I wanted to specifically avoid that straw man, and
Speaker 5: that's why I had that emphasis. I'm sorry if that
Speaker 5: caused confusion.
Speaker 1: All that caused me to do is just study it
Speaker 1: does a Bible teach cosmology? And I was like, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: I could tell you exactly what's wrong with that. Bro.
Speaker 5: It's just unfortunate because it seems like there was a
Speaker 5: silly misunderstanding. That's why I keep laughing.
Speaker 1: The misunderstanding is you wanted when I asked you if
Speaker 1: you want to do flat versus globe biblically. I had
Speaker 1: no problem doing that. But I understand that the Bible
Speaker 1: doesn't teach a glow but you can try to, at
Speaker 1: least I don't know. There's probably maybe a few Bible
Speaker 1: verses you can try to pull, but I have no
Speaker 1: interest in doing What would you like to start, bro,
Speaker 1: Because we're already like forty minutes in and we've we've
Speaker 1: already kind of done our thing. I mean, what do
Speaker 1: you what do you want to ask me any questions?
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you
Speaker 1: a question real quick about about the model that you're
Speaker 1: talking about. So in the Book of Revelation, it says
Speaker 1: that all the stars are going to fall to the earth. Okay,
Speaker 1: if you have a dome with the moon, sun of
Speaker 1: the stars in the firmament, and then you have a
Speaker 1: flat earth connected to the dome, all the stars can
Speaker 1: fall to the earth, no problem. In your model that
Speaker 1: you're talking about, it's absolutely impossible because the stars are
Speaker 1: actually bigger than suns. You know, they're they're all going
Speaker 1: to fall to the earth. How does that work for
Speaker 1: you in your model?
Speaker 5: Well, there's a few things things that come to my mind,
Speaker 5: but I have to be totally honest, I don't know.
Speaker 5: The Revelation is full of prophecy, and the thing about
Speaker 5: prophecy is that very often it's not even intended to
Speaker 5: be understood until in retrospect. It's like it's like it's
Speaker 5: like God saying, I'm gonna call this right now, that
Speaker 5: this is gonna happen, and you know, and basically it's
Speaker 5: a sign for us later when it does happen. But
Speaker 5: we can't decipher that ahead of time all the time.
Speaker 5: Sometimes we can if he means for us too, But
Speaker 5: I don't believe that revelation is fully decipherable beforehand. It
Speaker 5: is prophecy, and most of it is visions anyway. A
Speaker 5: lot of it is like clearly metaphorical or symbolic imagery,
Speaker 5: and so you know, I really don't know what it
Speaker 5: means when Revelation says that all the stars are going
Speaker 5: to fall to the earth. One possibility is that it
Speaker 5: could be referring to a meteor shower, because I believe
Speaker 5: in the understanding, like in the in the language of
Speaker 5: people in ancient times, meteors were the same as stars,
Speaker 5: you know, shooting stars. We still use that phrase today,
Speaker 5: So that could be an answer, But I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's prophecy.
Speaker 1: It's in also, it's in Mark thirteen twenty five. Jesus
Speaker 1: is speaking, it says, and the stars shall fall, and
Speaker 1: the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Isaiah
Speaker 1: thirty four to four says and the host of heaven
Speaker 1: host another word for host of stars shall be dissolved,
Speaker 1: and the heavens shall you rolled together as a scroll
Speaker 1: as the hosts shall fall down. And also in second Peter,
Speaker 1: it talks about the stars falling as well, So those
Speaker 1: are not those are prophathetic. But Jesus is speaking there
Speaker 1: and then Peter is speaking as well, saying the stars
Speaker 1: are going to fall. So that's something you should maybe
Speaker 1: take into account and study because that's very interesting. Then
Speaker 1: because a heliocentric which is heliocentric model, that'd be impossible, right,
Speaker 1: all the stars falling to Earth. I mean if that
Speaker 1: was true. But if you have a flat Earth with
Speaker 1: a dome with the moon sent and the stars in it,
Speaker 1: all of them could definitely fall to the Earth, no problem,
Speaker 1: right if they're not the same as defined in science.
Speaker 5: Right now, I mean, those are all prophecies. So everything
Speaker 5: I just said about revelation applies to those verses as well. Okay,
Speaker 5: and maybe you could say that, Okay, you know, here
Speaker 5: is one verse where my cosmological model makes a little
Speaker 5: more sense than yours. Okay, you know you can take
Speaker 5: that point. I don't mind. I don't believe that there's
Speaker 5: enough to win the battle.
Speaker 1: But let's let me ask you this. Okay. So, uh,
Speaker 1: talking about like the Earth being fixed and immovable, there's
Speaker 1: verses that are like that. Okay, Now, the earth does shake,
Speaker 1: right it It talks about it wobbling and shaking. Earth
Speaker 1: can also mean a few different things. It can mean land,
Speaker 1: it can mean foundations of the Earth, or it can
Speaker 1: mean the earth. Okay, So when it's talking about the
Speaker 1: earth being fixed and immovable and cannot be moved forever,
Speaker 1: or it says that the fix the earth is fixed
Speaker 1: and the world cannot be moved, or there's there's about
Speaker 1: five verses there in the Book of Zachariat also says
Speaker 1: that the Earth cannot be moved. Yeah. I don't see
Speaker 1: anywhere in the Bible. Not only that that you know
Speaker 1: about the globe and flat thing, but this is more
Speaker 1: like of the heliocentric thing. I don't see anywhere in
Speaker 1: the Bible where the Earth is moving. Can you give
Speaker 1: me a verse that it talks about the Earth moving?
Speaker 5: Well, no, you just gout covered it. And this is why,
Speaker 5: like again I said, the Bible does not teach a
Speaker 5: globe cosmology. You know, we get that from science, not
Speaker 5: from the Bible. But I'm really glad you brought this
Speaker 5: up because this is kind of cool to me. Okay,
Speaker 5: So number one, it's phenomenological, like I said, so if
Speaker 5: you're standing on the Earth, to you, the Earth does
Speaker 5: not move. Okay, It's it's that simple. But number two,
Speaker 5: and this is where things get fun for me, because
Speaker 5: I I was I would read the Bible as a teenager,
Speaker 5: you know, and and and connect this in my mind
Speaker 5: with what I know about science. Okay, the Earth is
Speaker 5: in an orbital orbital path around the Sun, and the
Speaker 5: Earth is like I don't I don't know, something like
Speaker 5: trillions and trillions of kilograms. Okay, it's no one is
Speaker 5: gonna move Earth out of that orbital path. Nothing and
Speaker 5: no one in the whole universe can do that. Only
Speaker 5: God can do that. And it's it's just like it's
Speaker 5: absolutely fixed in its orbital trajectory, and that orbital trajectory
Speaker 5: is cyclic, so it's it's got a path and it
Speaker 5: follows that path and nothing can deviate it. It is
Speaker 5: so firmly established in that sense that like I would
Speaker 5: just feel warmth every time I read those verses, knowing
Speaker 5: what I know about science and think yes, knowing what
Speaker 5: we know about science, these verses agree God established the
Speaker 5: earth and no one can move it. So I mean
Speaker 5: you might watch in like sci fi movies where oh, no,
Speaker 5: you know, the the bogons have come and blown up
Speaker 5: the earth. No, that's not gonna happen. God has firmly
Speaker 5: established the earth. So that's my take on that.
Speaker 1: And so you believe it's just fixed in the orbit. Okay, well, hey,
Speaker 1: that's well.
Speaker 5: And also theogal.
Speaker 1: Okay, so all right is there? Okay, So do you
Speaker 1: know that in the in the Mormon Bible, which I
Speaker 1: do not follow. I don't I don't believe scripture whatsoever,
Speaker 1: it says that the Sun stands still and the Earth
Speaker 1: moves around the Sun. It actually says that in that Bible. Right,
Speaker 1: So that's the only Bible verse that goes along with
Speaker 1: what you just said right there without adding because I
Speaker 1: don't add to the you know what, you know what
Speaker 1: Jesus says in Revelation. Do not add to the Bible
Speaker 1: right in Revelation, or else you're going to be a
Speaker 1: race out of the Book of Life. So I don't
Speaker 1: like to add to the Bible. So if you say
Speaker 1: that God says the Bible the Earth is fixed and immovable.
Speaker 1: I'm going to take that as it's fixed and immovable,
Speaker 1: not in its orbit at all or anything like that.
Speaker 5: Well, now, but you're forcing it onto logical reading there
Speaker 5: it like I said, it could be phenomenologically.
Speaker 1: I'm just taking the Bible serious, bro, like I'm taking
Speaker 1: every world that was placed serious too. Okay. Anyways, that's okay.
Speaker 1: So now I just want to get your I'm picking
Speaker 1: your brain here, Peter, because I want to find out
Speaker 1: what you believe. Anybody else's listening out there, I don't care.
Speaker 1: I want to know what Peter believes. So if you
Speaker 1: say that that's what you believe when you read that verse,
Speaker 1: then at least I'm I'm knowing now what someone that
Speaker 1: believes in the un.
Speaker 5: Again, we don't get helio centrism from the Bible. We
Speaker 5: get it from science because God commanded us to fulfill
Speaker 5: the earth and subdue it to have dominion, and that's
Speaker 5: what we do with science, and we study his creation,
Speaker 5: we learn how he made the world. That's our job,
Speaker 5: not his.
Speaker 1: You know, the people that are giving you that though
Speaker 1: those are trying to a lot of the people that
Speaker 1: are like kind of give you this, this heliocentric, all
Speaker 1: this stuff. They're trying to give you a world absent
Speaker 1: from God, though you do.
Speaker 5: All two of them are trying to not all of them.
Speaker 1: Not all of them.
Speaker 5: I'm not saying most of them are trying to do
Speaker 5: their best and from God. There are obviously there are
Speaker 5: worldview biases, but I'll tell you what, Josh, I believe
Speaker 5: worldview biases are much more. They have a much bigger
Speaker 5: impact on questions of origin and history than they do
Speaker 5: about observable science. So I actually tend to believe any
Speaker 5: random science fact that I read from like atheists and
Speaker 5: evolutionists and everything, if I know that they observed it
Speaker 5: with their own eyes or calculated it from direct observations.
Speaker 5: So you know, I question radiometric dating, I questioned the
Speaker 5: Big Bang cosmogony, I question Darwin's like narrative of how
Speaker 5: we got species because none of those things are direct observations.
Speaker 5: Because scientists today don't have to lie to think that.
Speaker 5: You see what I'm saying, it's in the past, so
Speaker 5: it's filtered through their worldview they are. They look at
Speaker 5: what they see in the present and then they interpret
Speaker 5: that using their worldview. To make a narrative about the past,
Speaker 5: and that's where they go wrong. But if it's something
Speaker 5: they're observing in a laboratory or through a telescope today,
Speaker 5: they're generally pretty spot on.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you a question. You know that
Speaker 1: it says in the Bible, and if he's in six
Speaker 1: twelve that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, where
Speaker 1: principalities of evil, host of wickedness in high places. Right,
Speaker 1: So there is a devil waiting to prowl on for
Speaker 1: hundred pounds. So don't you believe that the devil can
Speaker 1: influence men to create a cosmology that is separate from
Speaker 1: the Bible, that's completely inverted, like an earth that is moving,
Speaker 1: like a non firmament, like the moon sent of the stars,
Speaker 1: being in some infinite space where where God's thrown is
Speaker 1: getting further and further away because.
Speaker 5: Not even physically located in it.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's let me tell you something. I just want
Speaker 1: to tell you this, Peter. The Bible says this, and
Speaker 1: first in Ezekiel one twenty six it says that God's
Speaker 1: thrown is above the firmament, and Isaiah it says that
Speaker 1: God is basically above the fermaent looking down on us
Speaker 1: like grasshoppers, you know what I mean. So God's throne
Speaker 1: is above the firmament, whether you like it or not,
Speaker 1: the Bible says that.
Speaker 5: Well, actually I think it's Ezekiel is talking about a
Speaker 5: different firmament. It's not even the one in Genesis. It's
Speaker 5: because that's a vision that is equal.
Speaker 1: The vision from who who is the vision from? Yeah?
Speaker 5: From God?
Speaker 1: Is God able to lie?
Speaker 5: I didn't say he was lying.
Speaker 1: No, I know, I know, I know, But think about
Speaker 1: it this way. God, It's impossible for God to lie.
Speaker 1: So if God says that his throne is above the firmament,
Speaker 1: and he doesn't say anything again, look again, it says
Speaker 1: am if he's giving a vision, there is only one firmament.
Speaker 1: The Bible doesn't talk about firmaments that God the Bible.
Speaker 5: Okay, actually, maybe this is a good time. Maybe this
Speaker 5: is a good time for me to share my screen.
Speaker 5: And you gotta get out this other presentation I had
Speaker 5: on this rebuttal point.
Speaker 1: On the Okay, let's go all right, So, and much
Speaker 1: respect to you, peter A. I think you're doing a
Speaker 1: great job so far. Man. I just want to give
Speaker 1: you a big thank you.
Speaker 5: I want to say, also, I really appreciate where you're
Speaker 5: coming from and how you're approaching this. You are such
Speaker 5: a breath of fresh air after Flatzoid any flatzoid.
Speaker 1: Hey, I love you too, Bro, And I like Flatzoid too.
Speaker 1: I think he's cool. And I love you Peter and
Speaker 1: doctor J I love you too, brother, God bless you
Speaker 1: all right? So and Ozan, how you're still doing?
Speaker 2: Did you have a presentation? Peter? I'm not seeing it
Speaker 2: to be able to put it up on.
Speaker 5: The I tried to share my screen. Is it working? Oh,
Speaker 5: I guess I have to Okay, now I now I
Speaker 5: see what I did wrong? Okay? Is that working?
Speaker 2: Sure? Is okay?
Speaker 5: So rakia means expanse and we could we could just
Speaker 5: bring out strong dictionary rakia. This is a noun form
Speaker 5: of the verb raka.
Speaker 1: Spread end.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So like a rakey is something that has been
Speaker 5: rock God, if I can sort of mash together Hebrew
Speaker 5: and English. So what does raca mean to like you said,
Speaker 5: to pound or figuratively to expand by hammering, like like
Speaker 5: you know metallurgists might do as a sheet of metal. Yes,
Speaker 5: sometimes the thing rock cod is metal like in Exodus
Speaker 5: thirty nine, number sixteen, Isaiah forty Jeremia tenth. But not always.
Speaker 5: There are a number of things that have been rockd
Speaker 5: in scripture. There's metal, there's the earth. There's some uses
Speaker 5: with no direct object at all, and it says just
Speaker 5: raca with with one's feet. It says in Job thirty
Speaker 5: seven that the clouds have been rock cod And this
Speaker 5: is this one's really interesting. Right here, in second Manuel
Speaker 5: twenty two forty three, it says that God racause people. Okay,
Speaker 5: so let's look at that verse Second Samuel, I actually
Speaker 5: have the interlinear earth right here on the next slide,
Speaker 5: twenty two forty three.
Speaker 1: It's very hard to see for me.
Speaker 5: In the English Standard version, it says I beat them
Speaker 5: as fine as the dust of the earth. I crushed
Speaker 5: them and stamped them down like the mire of the streets.
Speaker 5: So looking at the interlinear here, it says, and I
Speaker 5: beat them as fine as the dust of the earth,
Speaker 5: like dirt in the streets. I trod them and and
Speaker 5: here's where the word rockey is used. I spread them out, okay,
Speaker 5: spread as one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 5: The really interesting thing to me here is that there
Speaker 5: are three different actions in this sentence. There's beat, crush,
Speaker 5: and stamp, and you'd think reading the English, oh, this
Speaker 5: one might be raka or this one might be raca.
Speaker 5: But the first two are not raka. Those are different verbs,
Speaker 5: even though they sound similar. The first one is shahak.
Speaker 5: I think, is that how that might be pronounced? And
Speaker 5: then duck hawk And it's like, these are different verbs.
Speaker 5: They refer to like a different type of action. You know,
Speaker 5: they might be synonyms, like there are situations where they
Speaker 5: might have a similar usage. But the only time in
Speaker 5: this verse that God uses the word raka is when
Speaker 5: he's referring not too dirt, not to Mayer in the streets,
Speaker 5: but to people. And I just thought that was very interesting.
Speaker 5: So I had Flatzoid bring this up in the Blue
Speaker 5: Letter Bible concerning Rakia, and he was like saying, oh, look,
Speaker 5: it says, you know, solid expanse firmament flat as a base.
Speaker 5: And then you know down there in the bottom it
Speaker 5: says considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting waters above. Well,
Speaker 5: where the heck does that come from? Brown driver Briggs?
Speaker 5: And this is an element of higher criticism. You know,
Speaker 5: this does not appear in the ancient sources and no
Speaker 5: scholar prior to the rise of higher criticism in Germany
Speaker 5: in the seventeen hundreds ever believed this this comes from
Speaker 5: higher criticism. So I reject that. You know, I respect
Speaker 5: Brown driver Briggs in general, but this specifically is an
Speaker 5: element of higher criticism leaking into their work. So let's
Speaker 5: look at some other Can.
Speaker 1: I respond at all? Or are you just going to
Speaker 1: do the whole presentation? Or how does that work? I could?
Speaker 2: That?
Speaker 5: Can pause?
Speaker 2: And so this is what we're gonna do.
Speaker 4: Josh, why don't you respond to the Peter talk for
Speaker 4: quite a while there, So why don't you go ahead
Speaker 4: and talk?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: So I'm going to go to some closing statements.
Speaker 4: We're getting about to an hour, so Josh this up
Speaker 4: with Josh.
Speaker 2: Okay on this, and then we'll do something.
Speaker 1: Okay. So first of all, Peter, good job, because what
Speaker 1: you're doing is what you're supposed to do. You're supposed
Speaker 1: to be like the Brians, and you're supposed to study.
Speaker 1: Bro I love it. You're studying the words and you're
Speaker 1: studying what they mean. And I really appreciate you doing that. Man.
Speaker 1: It's really smart to do that, and it's really good
Speaker 1: for the Christian community to start doing that. I like
Speaker 1: that you're doing that, bro, and I give you big
Speaker 1: ups for that. Okay, So hast thou spread out the
Speaker 1: sky which is strong if you click on strong and
Speaker 1: the strongest recordings, that means solid or firm. I don't
Speaker 1: know why you believe that's clouds, but that's okay as
Speaker 1: molten looking glass, right, So we have that. Also, the
Speaker 1: word firmament when it was translated from Hebrew to the Greek,
Speaker 1: and the Greek's step tuogen, they use the word stereoma,
Speaker 1: which that also means solid, and then they did firmament.
Speaker 1: It's not called the softman, it's called a firmament because
Speaker 1: they're staying true to the word and they believe that
Speaker 1: it was solid. Now you go to the complete Jewish Bible,
Speaker 1: which are Hebrews, that these guys are like, I am
Speaker 1: not going to mess up the Hebrew because I want
Speaker 1: to stand true to the word.
Speaker 5: They said, any modern Hebrews.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes I have. I've had. I've had modern Hebrews
Speaker 1: on my on my show twice already. One of them
Speaker 1: that is really great in Hebrew and he believes that
Speaker 1: that the word dome or firmament is perfect to use.
Speaker 1: But what I'll say this, you ask.
Speaker 5: Him if he believes that Moses wrote the Pentateuke.
Speaker 1: No I didn't.
Speaker 5: I didn't ask him that that would be an interesting
Speaker 5: thing to ask him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me let me continue with this. So also
Speaker 1: in the Book of Proverbs, it says that God made
Speaker 1: the sky firm. Click on that. It means solid firm, Okay.
Speaker 1: And when you go to the complete Jewish Bible, they
Speaker 1: chose the word dome. And then if you go to
Speaker 1: Joe twenty or thirty seven eighteen, it's firm instead of strong. Dude,
Speaker 1: I'm telling you wrote that. There's something to the Bible
Speaker 1: saying that the sky is solid or firm or it's
Speaker 1: holding back from waters above. Now, when God made the
Speaker 1: firmament to separate the waters from the waters, that's not
Speaker 1: separating the oceans, you know that, right, because the oceans
Speaker 1: are not made until Day three. He's separating waters from water.
Speaker 1: So there's there in the Bible. The reason why it
Speaker 1: says that it's a fat flat as based support or
Speaker 1: supporting waters above.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: The reason why it's saying that. They's saying that in
Speaker 1: the strongs Coordance is because the Hebrews believed Moses said. Okay,
Speaker 1: so the one that you've brought up on the screen, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so it said the Hebrews considered it's you know, supporting
Speaker 1: waters above, because that's what Moses said in the Bible,
Speaker 1: that it's supporting the waters above. That's probably why where
Speaker 1: they got that from. But also there's there's different.
Speaker 5: Parts of the Bible work critical interpretation of what Moses wrote.
Speaker 5: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So so another thing I would say is like
Speaker 1: Abos ninety six, this is the one who builds his
Speaker 1: upper chambers in the heavens. And if you click on
Speaker 1: the word chambers, it actually means layers. Like I told you,
Speaker 1: there's three heavens. One is where the moon's and the
Speaker 1: stars are. The second one is the firmament. The next
Speaker 1: one is where God's throne is located, it says, and
Speaker 1: this is the nasb. Okay, it says he has founded
Speaker 1: his vaulted dome over the earth. Does that mean vaulted dome?
Speaker 1: If you click on the word it's binding heaven to
Speaker 1: the earth. Okay, it's binding, So it's connecting heaven to
Speaker 1: the earth. So heaven being in the you know, if
Speaker 1: you look what heaven is. If you look at Genesis
Speaker 1: one to eight, it says that heaven is the firmament, right,
Speaker 1: So there's that, and then another one would be Isaiah
Speaker 1: forty twenty two. I just want to read this and
Speaker 1: then we'll wrap this up, Okay, Isaiah forty twenty two.
Speaker 1: Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it
Speaker 1: not been told to you from the beginning? Have you
Speaker 1: not understood from the foundations of the earth. It is
Speaker 1: he speaking of the Lord God who sits above the
Speaker 1: circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers
Speaker 1: who stretches off the heavens like a curtain and spreads
Speaker 1: them out like a tent to dwell in. So besides
Speaker 1: the circle and the spear thing everybody fights over, it's
Speaker 1: talking about God. He sits above the circle of the earth.
Speaker 1: He's sitting above the circle. Liric, I know that you
Speaker 1: probably say, well, there's no throne up there, like God says,
Speaker 1: you know, But it's talking about God's throne and Heaven
Speaker 1: and Paradise being in the third Heaven being above the
Speaker 1: firmament that the Bible speaks of this. But anyways, go ahead,
Speaker 1: I wanna let you talk. I talked for a while.
Speaker 4: Okay, let's go ahead and move to closing arguments. Guys,
Speaker 4: really appreciate you kind of adjusting here. Obviously, Josh won
Speaker 4: the debate he came to have, and Peter won the
Speaker 4: debate he came.
Speaker 2: To have, so you both won.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you transitioning here to try to hit each other
Speaker 4: to make sure you're kind of arguing about the same things.
Speaker 4: I think you did a nice job with that, so
Speaker 4: appreciate that, even though it's a little confusion. But let's
Speaker 4: go ahead and do some closing statements. I'm thinking just
Speaker 4: like three minutes for closing statements.
Speaker 2: Is that enough?
Speaker 4: I assume you guys don't have long prepared closing statements.
Speaker 2: Is that? Is that correct?
Speaker 5: I have nothing prepared, so yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's just do two minutes. Let's just do
Speaker 2: a two minute.
Speaker 4: Summary wrap up type thing, and Josh, why don't you
Speaker 4: get it started, and then Peter will close a set
Speaker 4: on these closing statements.
Speaker 1: Okay, Oh, so I'm starting it. I'm sorry. Okay, So
Speaker 1: closing there's definitely a difference between the Bible's cosmology or
Speaker 1: God's cosmology and the science that we see today. Okay,
Speaker 1: what I like I talked to you about. To Peter,
Speaker 1: there is a devil. They're influencing men, and demons influencing men,
Speaker 1: fallen angels influencing men to do certain things. And to me,
Speaker 1: I believe that the modern cosmology that's happening today that
Speaker 1: we see is completely inverted from the Bible. Okay, I
Speaker 1: see that the Earth is fixed. I believe there's a
Speaker 1: dome above the Earth, and that the moon some of
Speaker 1: the stars are in the dome, and that the sun
Speaker 1: is moving overhead and the moon is moving like Joshua
Speaker 1: ten twelve says, I believe that Earth is not moving whatsoever,
Speaker 1: and we are at a geocentric flat with the dome,
Speaker 1: with God's thrown above the dome. That the model that
Speaker 1: that they came out with, they say thirteen point eight
Speaker 1: billion years ago or thirty four to six million years ago,
Speaker 1: the stars came. Then they said the sun came. Then
Speaker 1: they said the earth came, completely the opposite to the Bible.
Speaker 1: The Bible says the earth came first, then the moon,
Speaker 1: sun of the stars came on day four. So it's
Speaker 1: definitely inverted in opposite. But anyways, I would just want
Speaker 1: to say one thing thank you Peter for this discussion
Speaker 1: because I think that we represented as Christians the right way.
Speaker 1: I think we handled it greatly, and I love that
Speaker 1: because we're in a den of atheist right now. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of atheists right now listening to this show.
Speaker 1: I know I was on the show before, so we're
Speaker 1: in a den atheist. So I think we handled it
Speaker 1: the right way.
Speaker 5: Yes, I just want to go on record. I told
Speaker 5: Flatzoid that he's an embarrassment to Christians. Josh, you are
Speaker 5: not good job, good job.
Speaker 1: All glory to God. I love Flatzoid, though he's not
Speaker 1: an embarrassment to Christians, but I like, I love, but
Speaker 1: go ahea. I'm done with my closing statement. Everybody that's
Speaker 1: listening out there, I love you guys so much and
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you your time and doctor j thank
Speaker 1: you for your time too, minute of moderating the debate.
Speaker 1: You're welcohad Peter.
Speaker 5: All right, So no single verse you shared, or any
Speaker 5: passage or anything that you shared from the Bible disambiguates
Speaker 5: between models. Okay, everything is explainable with modern science according
Speaker 5: to a globe healing centric model. The only thing that's
Speaker 5: not explainable is historical things like big bank cosmogy or Darwinism,
Speaker 5: you know, things we do not directly observe through our
Speaker 5: microscopes or telescopes. And that's the thing, is like, when
Speaker 5: you say that there's you know, a devil out there
Speaker 5: trying to deceive men, I agree. I just think you've
Speaker 5: misidentified his tactics because you know, he's a lot more
Speaker 5: subtle than you seem to griven credit for. In Genesis three,
Speaker 5: it says he's the most crafty, he's the craftiest of
Speaker 5: all the beasts or whatever. And I think he's you know,
Speaker 5: he's he's pushed the lie into the past where it
Speaker 5: requires interpretation because he's not he's not interfering with scientists'
Speaker 5: telescopes when they look into space. He's not interfering with
Speaker 5: the laboratory experiments to make sure they accidentally come up
Speaker 5: with a you know, a different like model than is
Speaker 5: taught in the Bible. That's not what's happening. He's he's
Speaker 5: giving them a cognitive bias against the history that the
Speaker 5: Bible teaches. Okay, so that's my my belief on that.
Speaker 5: And anyway, I didn't start my time, so I don't
Speaker 5: know how much time I have left.
Speaker 4: You got twenty seconds. Sounds like you're about to the end,
Speaker 4: so we'll stop it there. Well, the super super Chats
Speaker 4: few things. Hey, thank you for some gifted memory for
Speaker 4: ships from at Shirky, So thank you so much.
Speaker 2: For doing that.
Speaker 4: If you want to get your questions in, of course,
Speaker 4: super Chats will jump to the to the for the line,
Speaker 4: So let's start with those first of all, taking back
Speaker 4: eatam for two dollars.
Speaker 2: When will doctor j go flat Earth? Thank you, Josh,
Speaker 2: you're awesome.
Speaker 4: I am watching the final experience close experiment closely, so
Speaker 4: if that goes how flat Earth has been predicting for
Speaker 4: a long time, that would go a very long way
Speaker 4: in convincing me that flat Earth is correct, because that
Speaker 4: would go against my understanding of how things work. Next question,
Speaker 4: when will Max go flatter thanks to maximillion Villa.
Speaker 2: Uh, thanks Max, You're awesome.
Speaker 4: And I happen to know the answer to that as well,
Speaker 4: And the answer is never, because he's a filthy atheist
Speaker 4: and so he will not be not be doing it.
Speaker 4: So well, now, Max is a proud filthy atheist.
Speaker 2: Just look in the chat. I'm sure he'll tell.
Speaker 7: You he cleans. I watched him take a shower yesterday.
Speaker 4: Okay, for two dollars, Peter, Why wouldn't Satan lie about Earth?
Speaker 2: Think?
Speaker 5: Because he can't. God made God made our eyes, and
Speaker 5: God made the world. He can't make that process go
Speaker 5: wrong because God made that process. You know, God made
Speaker 5: the world. He gave it to us to study. He
Speaker 5: gave us eyes and brains to study it. Satan can't
Speaker 5: mess with that. What he can mess with is our
Speaker 5: cognitive bias, our spiritual beliefs, our worldview. Satan just can't.
Speaker 5: He's not that powerful.
Speaker 2: Okay, Josh, welcome, make a combat.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, okay, it's very easy. All Satan has
Speaker 1: to do is take Genesis three point fifteen and when
Speaker 1: you click on that word where it says beguiled Eve,
Speaker 1: that word is nashah our Nasa Nasa.
Speaker 5: All you gotta dosh hold on.
Speaker 1: This is just act answering this question. He said that
Speaker 1: what couldn't Satan lie about the Earth? Of course, all
Speaker 1: he has to do is send you pictures from space
Speaker 1: and tell you this is what the Earth looks like.
Speaker 1: And people are gonna believe it because our normal perception
Speaker 1: that we see with our eyes when you look at
Speaker 1: the horizon and everything you're seeing it being flat. The
Speaker 1: only reason why we believe it's a globe is because
Speaker 1: we've been told it's a globe. Go ahead.
Speaker 5: That's not the reason I believe it's a globe. I
Speaker 5: believe it's a globe because I measured sunset myself and
Speaker 5: it only works on a globe.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well that's okay. I'm just saying. I'm just saying
Speaker 1: about the question about Satan. He could definitely make SciTE.
Speaker 1: But go ahead, doctor j Next question.
Speaker 4: Peter, any last comments, So I'll give you the chance
Speaker 4: that it was to you, but otherwise I'll head head
Speaker 4: on to.
Speaker 5: I had a thought that it escaped me. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: We'll assume that it means it wasn't that important, all right.
Speaker 4: Five from Maximilian Ville again, thank you so much. Five
Speaker 4: SGD from Beheaded Kamakazi. How do you account for the
Speaker 4: phenomena of black holes and supernova with respect to the Bible?
Speaker 4: Why don't you each give your opinion on this particular question.
Speaker 2: Start with you, Josh.
Speaker 1: Okay, so if you can tell me that that's a
Speaker 1: one thousand percent fact that there's black holes and supernovas,
Speaker 1: then you know, then then I would understand. But this
Speaker 1: is just coming from man teaching us that there's black
Speaker 1: holes and supernovas and to give us artist depictions of
Speaker 1: what it would look like. I'm not actually seeing it
Speaker 1: with my eyes, so Maximili though, it doesn't disrespect the
Speaker 1: Bible in any way. And the Bible says that the
Speaker 1: host of heaven are complete and the after the Seventh Day,
Speaker 1: he said that the stars and everything is complete and finished.
Speaker 1: So it does go against the Bible if you think
Speaker 1: that supernovas are happening and new stars are being created, Dude,
Speaker 1: they're already finished in the complete. So this is just
Speaker 1: what man is telling you, and you're not actually seeing
Speaker 1: it with your own eyes. They're just telling you what
Speaker 1: it is, a black hole and supernova. It doesn't go
Speaker 1: get the Bible whatsoever. I don't I don't really care
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so we do observe black holes in supernova. That
Speaker 5: like when when we're when we're monitoring a star and
Speaker 5: measuring its brightness. And when I say measure, this says
Speaker 5: what scientists do. They use instruments that are more capable
Speaker 5: than our immediate bodily sensations. So this is not a
Speaker 5: scientist just staring through a telescope with his eyeball. This
Speaker 5: is him using like a light meter to actually measure
Speaker 5: the brightness of a star and it will, you know,
Speaker 5: jump way off the charts all of a sudden in
Speaker 5: brightness and this spectrogram will go out of whack and
Speaker 5: then poof, in a few weeks, it's gone. Okay, that's
Speaker 5: the observation. You know, you can try to explain that
Speaker 5: a different way. But that happened in God's universe, Okay,
Speaker 5: you know that that's something we observe. And as far
Speaker 5: as far as black holes, there, they were a little
Speaker 5: more theoretical for a while. But I actually did a
Speaker 5: video recently on the first image that they took of
Speaker 5: a black hole and my theological interpretation of that, because
Speaker 5: I think it's such a cool subject. Black holes are terrifying,
Speaker 5: and in order to observe those, we actually needed to
Speaker 5: use interferometry across like a huge array of telescopes all
Speaker 5: across the globe. So it's very much more difficult than
Speaker 5: observing a supernova. But I don't see any issue with
Speaker 5: reconciling that with the Bible. The Bible, like I said,
Speaker 5: does not prefer a cosmological model. It doesn't say the
Speaker 5: Earth is flat, so there's no issue. We're studying God's
Speaker 5: creation when we study black holes and supernova.
Speaker 2: Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 4: A couple different ways of understanding that appreciate it. Next,
Speaker 4: does may be supposed to be due? Josh and Peter
Speaker 4: know the Ten commandments? Do either of you what to
Speaker 4: demonstrate your memory skills?
Speaker 2: To try to the top of my head or not?
Speaker 5: I I before me, no graven images. Don't take the
Speaker 5: Lord's name in vain, remember the Sabbath.
Speaker 1: No, no onto thy mother and father.
Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, you have no see.
Speaker 1: Do not steal, murder, do not murder, Do not lie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's about how many do we cover? Like seven,
Speaker 1: do not covet, do not covet thy neighbors.
Speaker 5: Cove It is number ten. There's also don't commit adultery, and.
Speaker 1: That's another one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're good, we got that number seven. I think nine.
Speaker 7: Don't lie about your neighboring court or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that was that was our shot at it
Speaker 4: there taking back he did very false.
Speaker 5: Wit is the phrase do.
Speaker 1: Not does I'm a Barbie girl in a Barbie word?
Speaker 1: Or no I got it, dude, Why do.
Speaker 5: I get feel like this person is not taking us seriously?
Speaker 1: That's that gentleman, that's the host. That's another host that
Speaker 1: you guys have.
Speaker 2: Is no, no, this is a different guy.
Speaker 7: Okay, get ten free memberships if you sing it so
Speaker 7: you know, do what you can.
Speaker 5: I sing the parody version, give it to us, give
Speaker 5: it to us. I'm not I'm not really really good. Okay,
Speaker 5: I'm too shy.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Max for for doing that.
Speaker 4: Okay, two dollars taking back eating again, Peter, Can you
Speaker 4: feel the Earth's tilt?
Speaker 2: No, no, no.
Speaker 5: No, there's no reason why you would be able to
Speaker 5: feel that in your body. That's just an argument from
Speaker 5: ignorance fallacy. If you think that means that it is
Speaker 5: that it's not true. We use measurements, you know, in
Speaker 5: science to figure that out, not our bodily sensations.
Speaker 4: Okay, Peter, a show well, I hope you know what
Speaker 4: that means. Conformity XP three fourths goes against sense is
Speaker 4: don't make sense to you? Oh, Oz, can you help
Speaker 4: us with this question?
Speaker 2: Do you know what it means?
Speaker 4: I do not, Peter Osh, conformity X. I feel like
Speaker 4: this is a video game XP three fours go against
Speaker 4: you get it figured out, jump back in and help
Speaker 4: us out. But we got a few other.
Speaker 7: Take me and let me know. I'm taking back your john.
Speaker 7: What you mean conformity experiment? Oh, I think there's a
Speaker 7: conformity experiment where people in authority precitions.
Speaker 8: Oh, it's like a psychology thing, right, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 8: so I don't know if they go against senses, but people.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so people will conform to authority and what they
Speaker 7: tell them is true, and that is true.
Speaker 5: That's just not relevant to me understanding and studying science,
Speaker 5: like because I'm not taking it from authority, Like I
Speaker 5: understand these concepts. I measured this on myself. You can
Speaker 5: go look at my profile on YouTube or TikTok and
Speaker 5: see the experiment that I did and I made that.
Speaker 5: I devised that experiment myself. I did not consult an authority.
Speaker 5: I did not get that from someone. I thought of
Speaker 5: that myself. You know this is not it's not about
Speaker 5: authority at all.
Speaker 4: All right, So thank you Max. Also, so we get
Speaker 4: some gifted memberships from him. Really appreciate that. Thanks so
Speaker 4: as much. That was five memberships a little bit earlier
Speaker 4: and then ten memberships, so really appreciate that. We did
Speaker 4: have a few other questions I want to jump into,
Speaker 4: and then we'll see if we have time for mine,
Speaker 4: because I had a couple.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: The Bible does mention stars in constellation, but does provide
Speaker 4: specific locations for them. So can I locate them in
Speaker 4: the heavens for viewing?
Speaker 2: Does the Bible does?
Speaker 1: Man, it's called the Mazaroth. So if you're saying, does
Speaker 1: the Bible mention stars and constellations? Yes, it's called the Mazaroth? Okay,
Speaker 1: And yeah, you I mean, are are you asking? Can
Speaker 1: you locate them like to like line up with the
Speaker 1: Bible tells the truth. I think that's what they're asking, right.
Speaker 5: I don't think the Bible gives us a star chart.
Speaker 5: You gotta get stilarium or something for that.
Speaker 1: Viewing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was a good old college Try next one here.
Speaker 4: Why didn't God plant his magic tree, the Tree of
Speaker 4: Knowledge on Pluto to avoid all the suffering?
Speaker 2: So this would be a question about the problem of evil?
Speaker 4: I think, Okay, Peter, you want to pick on the
Speaker 4: problem of.
Speaker 5: Evil because God wanted to reveal the majesty of his
Speaker 5: holiness and his goodness through the Gospel of Jesus Christ
Speaker 5: by sending his son to die on the cross for
Speaker 5: our sins and give us eternal life. There was no
Speaker 5: way to do that without introducing, without allowing evil to
Speaker 5: enter the world through Adam and Eve's sinning.
Speaker 1: And also, we're not robots. So if God had robots,
Speaker 1: come on, this is this is okay, I want you guys.
Speaker 1: I if I had a robot that was like my
Speaker 1: housekeeper and then it kept saying I love you, I
Speaker 1: love you, I love you, it's programmed to say that.
Speaker 1: So for us to you know, faith has to be
Speaker 1: tested for it to be real faith. Right, So that's
Speaker 1: what that's what I believe. I believe that our faith
Speaker 1: has to be tested, and that's the way. And what
Speaker 1: God does, He's like basically shaping you to be able
Speaker 1: to make it to heaven because in heaven it's sinless,
Speaker 1: so you have to go through trials and tribulations for
Speaker 1: you to have real faith, you know, like like you
Speaker 1: have to put the full armor of God on which
Speaker 1: is the breastplate of righteousness, the helmet of salvation, the
Speaker 1: belt of truth, and you have to have the sandals
Speaker 1: of the gospel, and you have to have a sword,
Speaker 1: which is the word of God, and you have to
Speaker 1: have a shield of faith. The bigger the more faith
Speaker 1: that you earn, the bigger faith, the bigger the shield
Speaker 1: is going to be to dodge the wiles of the devil.
Speaker 1: So it's going to help you to fight against the devil.
Speaker 1: So you do have spiritual weapons that God will give
Speaker 1: you to fight against it.
Speaker 4: Well, we started a cosmology debate, and we might have
Speaker 4: the problem of evil debate.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Can I ask a follow up question? There's a bunch
Speaker 7: of chit chat in the chat about that. Are you
Speaker 7: saying that the fall was it by design?
Speaker 2: Peter?
Speaker 5: Are you asking me?
Speaker 7: Yeah, both of you. It's a fall eating the apple
Speaker 7: or the fruit good and evil? That by design God.
Speaker 5: It was according to God's plan. God did not design evil,
Speaker 5: but he planned for it.
Speaker 1: Forget.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I apologize for interrupting you, Josh.
Speaker 1: I just uh, it's okay.
Speaker 5: I have so little patience now for the robot analogy
Speaker 5: because it's a cliche of like basically what I would
Speaker 5: describe as shallow pop apologetics for Christians like from you know,
Speaker 5: like Frank Turic and people like that. I'm a Calvinist.
Speaker 5: I believe in predestination. I don't believe in ultimate human
Speaker 5: free will, and I don't believe that that's a good
Speaker 5: answer at all, because it ends up basically making God
Speaker 5: seem smaller, like he doesn't have sovereignty over you know,
Speaker 5: the course of history.
Speaker 4: Maybe I need to start a different channel where we
Speaker 4: argue about.
Speaker 5: I think the robot analogy has done a lot more
Speaker 5: harm than good.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's all good, yeah, I think. Okay, no worries.
Speaker 1: What's the next question?
Speaker 5: I think you meant well though, and so I I
Speaker 5: am meaning well.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to let people know that God gave
Speaker 1: us a spiritual you know, weapons to fight against them.
Speaker 4: Okay, next question matters Now for Josh Max, this is
Speaker 4: the Max from our channel that you probably know.
Speaker 2: He would love to do a debate.
Speaker 4: I'm sure you know how to get a hold of
Speaker 4: him through discord if you're interested.
Speaker 2: But Max, would Max debate.
Speaker 1: Much less to you. I don't debate the topic of
Speaker 1: flat Earth. I only debate biblical cosmology due to the
Speaker 1: fact that that's that's all. I like that. That's all
Speaker 1: that matters to me. Flat Earth like fighting, like you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's so much intensity there. But you're an atheist,
Speaker 1: so any anything that I brought to you would probably
Speaker 1: you probably wouldn't believe it anyways, because I would be
Speaker 1: bringing Biblical verses and stuff. So, but I would love
Speaker 1: to debate you on flat earth, if you want to
Speaker 1: do flat versus globe biblically like I did with Ozian,
Speaker 1: But I don't. I don't debate flat earth because it's
Speaker 1: like beating a dead horse, you know, honestly, there's already
Speaker 1: been out there so much. I like to debate what
Speaker 1: the Bible says because I think that's the true, inherent
Speaker 1: of everything. I think it's true.
Speaker 7: But he says he will debate biblical cosmology. I'll send
Speaker 7: him your discord.
Speaker 1: Yeah he can. You can get a hold of me,
Speaker 1: bro if you want to talk to me, and I've
Speaker 1: listened to you.
Speaker 5: Stick him to the robotism.
Speaker 2: A couple of questions I had.
Speaker 4: I think we'll have time and then we'll wrap up
Speaker 4: unless someone shoots a super sat chat in otherwise these
Speaker 4: will be the last ones. What is your guys' understanding
Speaker 4: of what are the best Hebrew and lexicons Hebrew and
Speaker 4: Greek lexicons that one should use when arguing about the
Speaker 4: meanings of words I can.
Speaker 1: I can go grab the one that I have. If
Speaker 1: you'd like it, I could show it to you. Hold on,
Speaker 1: real quick, give me one second, Peter, if you can
Speaker 1: answer that for one second, I'm gonna go.
Speaker 5: So my answer is that I don't know. I am
Speaker 5: not a scholar. I engage in basically what amounts to
Speaker 5: armchair like scholarship on these things. You know, I don't
Speaker 5: know hardly anything about Hebrew or Greek from what I
Speaker 5: from what I know, like from what I've heard. Okay, Like,
Speaker 5: there is a lot of merit to the brown Driver's
Speaker 5: Briggs lexicon because and I know that just because that's
Speaker 5: what I was studying this week for preparing for this debate.
Speaker 5: Before this week, I didn't even know that that existed,
Speaker 5: which it might be silly, but it's a lot more
Speaker 5: in depth than Strongs. And you know, some go even
Speaker 5: so far as to say that Strong's is not even
Speaker 5: a dictionary or lexicon. Brown Driver's Briggs is more of
Speaker 5: a dictionary or lexicon because it gives the actual definitions
Speaker 5: and comparisons and everything. So it's probably very good for
Speaker 5: a lot of kinds of study. I took specific issue
Speaker 5: with its definition of Rakia because I believe it demonstrates
Speaker 5: influence from higher criticism according to the arguments I shared earlier.
Speaker 5: But that's so far almost all I know about Brown
Speaker 5: Driver's brigs and the only real flaw that I see
Speaker 5: in it, So the rest of it could be gold
Speaker 5: and totally fine.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: What do you use? What's it? What is this one?
Speaker 1: This one is a expedition. It's an expo expo expository
Speaker 1: dictionary of Bible words. This is one that I use
Speaker 1: right here, and I do use it. Uh, I do
Speaker 1: use This is by edited by Steven D. Wren. This
Speaker 1: is one that I use. But also, like he talked about, uh,
Speaker 1: also I like the strong succordance. The Blue Letter Bible
Speaker 1: is an easy one to go to because you could
Speaker 1: you pulled up on your computer, and it's a lot easier.
Speaker 1: This one you have to you know, you still have
Speaker 1: to physically look through. But it's good to compare notes
Speaker 1: on each one and find out what you feel is
Speaker 1: the best. Uh as far as the but yeah, I
Speaker 1: just think it's good to just look through all of
Speaker 1: them and just just study as much as you can.
Speaker 1: I think it's the best to do because we don't
Speaker 1: speak Greek, we don't speak Hebrew, and uh, I think
Speaker 1: it's best to just study as much as you can
Speaker 1: and make sure that we're teaching correctly.
Speaker 2: Really is one I over these words.
Speaker 4: Okay, if you really want to argue over the meeting
Speaker 4: of these words, and you want any academic to take
Speaker 4: you seriously, you have to use b dag for grit
Speaker 4: for Greek and haylot for Hebrew. I'm not saying they're
Speaker 4: perfect in every way, but those are considered the gold standard.
Speaker 4: I don't even own haylot because it's expensive. I used
Speaker 4: it in my when I was writing my PhD dissertation,
Speaker 4: I just used the one from the library. But if
Speaker 4: if if I was going to write something serious in
Speaker 4: the Old Testament, I would need to at least address
Speaker 4: a lot.
Speaker 2: Can it's h A l O T H haylot, But
Speaker 2: I can the B dag B d A G.
Speaker 4: But BD purchases to buy good stuff isn't free unfortunately. Okay,
Speaker 4: Another question I had if you met each other in person,
Speaker 4: would you greet each other with the Holy kiss? And
Speaker 4: if not, what reasons would you have to not greet
Speaker 4: each other with the Holy kiss? The Testament says the
Speaker 4: Great One and not with the Holy Kiss.
Speaker 5: We could figuratively just like hug. You know, I would
Speaker 5: the culture that we have.
Speaker 1: If I met Peter, I would try to I would
Speaker 1: try to be as nice as I can possibly to
Speaker 1: him as Christian brothers, because I do respect his work
Speaker 1: and I have no issues with them, So I would
Speaker 1: definitely give him a hug. Nice to meet you, Peter,
Speaker 1: and I would try to get along with him as
Speaker 1: best as possible, and maybe we can bounce ideas off
Speaker 1: each other. Why do you believe this? Why I believe
Speaker 1: this and have a great conversation. It would be no
Speaker 1: issues at all, for sure.
Speaker 5: Yeah. And I see comments like trying to sexualize filo love,
Speaker 5: This is just nothing to do with you really really
Speaker 5: have to get away from the over sexualization of stuff
Speaker 5: in our culture today.
Speaker 4: What what I mean was, notice how fast you guys
Speaker 4: moved away from the literal interpretation.
Speaker 5: In that verse, right, because that's not our costantly ran
Speaker 5: away from it.
Speaker 2: So just notice that you notice that.
Speaker 5: Notice that we have a very different culture now than
Speaker 5: they had in the New Testament.
Speaker 7: So anyway, when you go to Europe, you go to
Speaker 7: the Middle East, and this is common practice between men,
Speaker 7: and it's not considered sexual. It's not considered almost sexual
Speaker 7: for two men to hold hand and brotherly.
Speaker 5: Wasn't there, guy?
Speaker 4: Like My point wasn't saying your your interpretation is wrong,
Speaker 4: because I'd probably take a similar one maybe, But I
Speaker 4: just wanted you to notice how you didn't take it
Speaker 4: literally at all. It you directly twice and you didn't
Speaker 4: do it, and neither one of you will ever literally
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 5: Oh well, now, if we want to play some antics here,
Speaker 5: Paul commanded his direct audience to do that literally. He
Speaker 5: did not plan us to do that.
Speaker 4: Just say, notice that interputation move you did there, that
Speaker 4: hermoneutical shift, and then you do it every time you
Speaker 4: read anything, because you just did it right there.
Speaker 5: Like I want to say that, like Andrew Cuomo got
Speaker 5: in trouble for that kind of thing, like doing it
Speaker 5: when like people had a different culture and didn't take
Speaker 5: it the way that he intended and stuffed it. Wasn't
Speaker 5: that something.
Speaker 4: I'm not I'm not saying we just I just want
Speaker 4: to point out the hermoneutics, That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 2: There, noticed interpretation there.
Speaker 4: Anyway, we are at the end of our time, thank
Speaker 4: you guys so much for joining us.
Speaker 2: Great job you two.
Speaker 4: Good job, you know, kind of shifting around once we
Speaker 4: got our definitions better. Thank you all so much for
Speaker 4: joining us for matters. Now you're looking forward to more content.
Speaker 4: I think we have another bait just coming up soon tomorrow.
Speaker 4: It's on flat Earth and versus globe, So keep track.
Speaker 4: I'll be doing another book review here soon. I think
Speaker 4: I'm gonna do on economics, and I think I'm going
Speaker 4: to do a book review on a book called Uh.
Speaker 2: It's on the It's called a deficit myth.
Speaker 4: It's basically arguing that the federal deficit does it matter?
Speaker 2: And so I will be explaining why.
Speaker 4: This particular author argues that the federal deficit doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: I'll be explaining her argument.
Speaker 4: So if you're interested, if you're looking for that, coming
Speaker 4: up the next week's again weeks as well. Thank you
Speaker 4: once again, Josh Peter for coming. We wouldn't have a
Speaker 4: show without you, so thank you so.
Speaker 2: Much for being here.
Speaker 1: Can I shout out my babe?
Speaker 2: You bet? Josh, go ahead and shou out your stuff,
Speaker 2: and then Peter, if you have any I want to,
Speaker 2: and then we'll get out of here.
Speaker 1: My podcast is Josh Monday Christian and Conspiracy podcast. You
Speaker 1: can find that on Spotify and all audio. If you
Speaker 1: go to my YouTube, it's Josh Monday Music and Podcast.
Speaker 1: If you could subscribe, if you have any questions, if
Speaker 1: you need prayer, any episode you've ever seen, If you
Speaker 1: have any questions, you can always DM me on Instagram
Speaker 1: at Josh Monday Underscore Podcast. And I also have a
Speaker 1: TikTok too, but I'm not really too active there. I
Speaker 1: do mostly myself on Instagram. But everybody that's listening, God
Speaker 1: bless you, Thank you, and Peter, thank you so much. Brother.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time, and I think it was
Speaker 1: it was a fun debate. And doctor j thank you
Speaker 1: for your time. And thank you for your time. Brother Peter.
Speaker 2: We got where where can we find you?
Speaker 5: So I'm on YouTube and TikTok and a few other places,
Speaker 5: but that's mainly where I post content. The sometimes the
Speaker 5: social media kind of chooses you instead of YouTube. I've
Speaker 5: only been on TikTok for a few months, but that's
Speaker 5: for some reason where my stuff kind of started taking
Speaker 5: gaining traction. So I guess I'm a TikToker. Just look
Speaker 5: up my name Peter Markley and A. R. K. L. E.
Speaker 2: Wyan.
Speaker 5: You should find it, Josh, Thank you, h this was
Speaker 5: a breath of fresh air. I came into kind of
Speaker 5: like white knuckled, expecting something similar to like with Flatzoid,
Speaker 5: and that didn't happen. So this was a this was
Speaker 5: a delight. Thank you, and thank you as well that
Speaker 5: doctor Jay and jes In.
Speaker 2: You are welcome in.
Speaker 4: Some of that information for their socials and whatnot can
Speaker 4: be found in a few of their links can be
Speaker 4: found in description and if you want to.
Speaker 2: Find it there. Thanks again for joining us, and we'll
Speaker 2: see you again next time.
Speaker 9: Sa Us.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I think that actually my microphone might have
Speaker 1: been on mute. Oh no, oh no, okay, guys, hopefully
Speaker 1: that my mic was not on mute. If it was,
Speaker 1: I apologize, you guys will have to forgive me. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, I think my mic was on mute. I
Speaker 1: think that was like about a good five minutes of talking.
Speaker 1: I apologize, guys. I don't have an editor to edit
Speaker 1: it out either, but anyways, what I want to say
Speaker 1: is thank you so much to Jonathan and Jacob. I
Speaker 1: appreciate you, guys. Appreciate you guys. Having me as a host.
Speaker 1: I just want to tell you guys. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you guys heard anything I said, because I think
Speaker 1: my mic was on mute. I apologize, but anyways, I
Speaker 1: just want to tell you on Wednesday's service, I want
Speaker 1: to try to start doing some New Testament versus going
Speaker 1: over Matthew. I'll start there probably, so I'll start doing sermons.
Speaker 1: I wanted to let you guys know when I do
Speaker 1: have a guest on the podcast, I am not able to.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be bringing people on that I'm
Speaker 1: not equally yoke with. I want to make sure that
Speaker 1: when I'm doing Bible studies with somebody, I trust them.
Speaker 1: I know that they're one hundred percent Christian. I know
Speaker 1: that all the information that they're putting out is equally
Speaker 1: yoke with what I put out, you know. So that's
Speaker 1: why I have only a few guests that come on,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to get too crazy and have
Speaker 1: a bunch of different guests that are not that don't
Speaker 1: really walk with God, if that makes sense. So I
Speaker 1: try to do my best. But anyways, I apologize for
Speaker 1: the mute, I really do. I don't know how long
Speaker 1: that was. Oh my goodness. I really feel embarrassed. But
Speaker 1: hopefully you enjoyed the debate and I hope you enjoy
Speaker 1: Wednesday service. This is the first episode. If you want
Speaker 1: to hit me up on Instagram, it's at Josh Monday
Speaker 1: Music and Podcast. Thank you guys so much. I really
Speaker 1: appreciate you. And uh, let's end this in prayer. So, Father,
Speaker 1: God and the name of Jesus, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for everything you do for me and you do for us.
Speaker 1: Anybody that's listening right now, please, I just want to
Speaker 1: ask I pray over this podcast. I pray that the
Speaker 1: people listening open up their hearts to you, accept your
Speaker 1: word as true. I want to help people get closer
Speaker 1: to you, Lord, and I want to help people get saved.
Speaker 1: That's the whole point of this podcast. There's that there's
Speaker 1: Christians and conspiracy theorists out there. There's conspiracy theorists out
Speaker 1: there that are lost, that are that are digging through
Speaker 1: all these different conspiracies and they're trying to find the truth.
Speaker 1: What they don't understand, Lord is that the truth is
Speaker 1: on their nights dand the Holy Bible. I know the
Speaker 1: truth is there. Lord, So if you could please motivate
Speaker 1: these these people that are listening to start reading the
Speaker 1: Word of God. Lord, please and you know, help them
Speaker 1: assist them to you know, if they if they do
Speaker 1: sit down to do the Bible study with this show, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, have them pick up their Bible and kind
Speaker 1: of fall along and help me to teach the Bible
Speaker 1: the way you want me to teach it. Lord, Sunday
Speaker 1: service will be Uh. I'll be doing on Wednesday night.
Speaker 1: And Lord, I just asked that you assist me to
Speaker 1: teach Exodus seventeen to the best of my ability and
Speaker 1: help me do some studies the next few days, so
Speaker 1: I make sure that that is prepared and help me
Speaker 1: prepare for when I do start teaching the New Testament
Speaker 1: for Wednesday service. Lord, thank you for the opportunity. I
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Lord. I'm going to ask you that you
Speaker 1: break the chains of any person that's listening right now
Speaker 1: that's having any issues with anything, including myself. Lord, break
Speaker 1: any change if there's anything that's stopping me from moving
Speaker 1: forward in faith, if you want to, you know, anybody
Speaker 1: that's out there that's that's the maybe like, hey, I
Speaker 1: can't stop drinking, I can't stop doing this, can't whatever
Speaker 1: kind of addiction that's stopped with them. Lord, I want
Speaker 1: to ask you break those chains. So thank you so much,
Speaker 1: and I appreciate everything you do. Lord, thank you in
Speaker 1: Jesus name, Amen, and everybody that's listening, I really appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Sorry about that pause right there. I was talking all
Speaker 1: confident too. That's hilarious that that the bike was muted
Speaker 1: and that's never happened before. But anyways, thank you so much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when the debate was playing, I just wanted to make
Speaker 1: sure that you didn't hear me talking or anything. I
Speaker 1: was sitting there listening with you guys the whole time.
Speaker 1: But you know what, thank you guys so much for
Speaker 1: your patience with me. And I love you guys, and
Speaker 1: God bless you