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Noe's necessary daily Revoidhever, Everybody Lost read 24 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:00.920 Afting Lay. 25 00:01:08.640 --> 00:01:12.040 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 26 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.159 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:15.239 --> 00:01:22.519 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker Dck. Every 28 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:30.519 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 30 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.799 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 31 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:49.040 Good Evening. On the early morning of March sixth, nineteen 32 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:52.959 ninety three, an intense fire broke out in a tiny nursery. 33 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:59.040 Sixteen minutes later, firefighters had extinguished the blaze, only to 34 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:03.799 reveal the room burnt so severely everything was virtually unrecognizable. 35 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:08.560 Then they were told to look for a baby. What 36 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:11.759 they discovered looked more like a monster from a horror film. 37 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:15.479 The small skull had been incinerated, and the legs and 38 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:20.400 arms were nothing more than charred stumps. The only identifiable 39 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:23.319 human feature was the baby's genitals, covered in what remained 40 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:26.919 of his piper. Two people were home at the time 41 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:32.360 the fire broke out, the newborn's parents. The arson squad 42 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:35.879 declared the fire suspicious, and the homeowner's insurance company hired 43 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:40.280 investigators who determined the fire to indeed be Arson. The 44 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:43.599 prosecutors wanted to dismiss the case, but the Arson unit 45 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:46.960 had a newly appointed prosecutor who refused to do so. 46 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:51.800 Was it Arson? What was the motive? Along with the 47 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:56.319 tenacious and determined detective Leslie van Buskirk, Diane Marger Moore 48 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:59.319 persisted for more than two years to find the truth 49 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:02.919 and get justice for baby Matthew. Wise, the book that 50 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:06.479 we're featuring the seating in sixteen minutes was the death 51 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:10.680 of Baby Matthew an accident or Murder with my special 52 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:14.879 guest author and special prosecutor, Diane Margine Moore. Welcome back 53 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:16.919 to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. 54 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:18.360 Diane Margae Moore. 55 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:24.439 Thank you, Dan, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk 56 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:26.520 about the book and the murder. 57 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.479 Well, thank you, thank you so much for coming on 58 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:33.800 and talking about this extraordinary book sixteen minutes. This is 59 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:39.759 particularly heart wrenching story, of course because the baby involved 60 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:46.240 in this and let's get right to this story. We 61 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:49.000 realized that you were a special prosecutor. I just introduced 62 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:52.599 you as that, and in the brief synopsis of this book, 63 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:56.039 we understand a little bit more about your role in 64 00:03:56.039 --> 00:04:03.479 this Let's talk about Marion County Prosecution Office, prosecutor's office 65 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:07.039 and your boss, chief trial Council called you and asked 66 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:10.800 you if you knew anything about Brian Poindexter dismissing an 67 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:16.120 arson murder case against a guy named William Wise. Tell 68 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:18.199 us as you do, as you're introduced in this book 69 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:22.120 that conversation, and what you learned as a result. 70 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:31.120 Scott Newman had just been elected prosecutor in Marion County, 71 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.879 which is Indianapolis and surrounding areas, and he hired me 72 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:43.560 as the chief arson prosecutor for the county. Cal Bradford 73 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:47.959 was his chief counsel, and Cail called me. I'd only 74 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:51.439 been in the office a very short time and called 75 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:54.600 an asked whether I knew anything about an arson case 76 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:59.079 that had never crossed my desk. It was in the 77 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:02.519 hands of Brian Coindexter, who had been a prosecutor with 78 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:06.160 the prior administration and probably the one before that, so 79 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:11.199 he was sort of a good old boy prosecutor. I 80 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:16.240 knew nothing about the case, and so I immediately picked 81 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:20.199 up my telephone to try and call Brian, but he 82 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:24.879 failed to answer the phone. A few minutes later, I 83 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:28.759 was called into a meeting in the small conference room 84 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.759 that we had in the prosecutor's office, and at the 85 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:41.519 meeting was cal Bradford, provisor Poindexter and two detectives with 86 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:46.959 the Indian Apple was Police department homiciding it. And it 87 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:49.639 was at that meeting that I learned about the case. 88 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:54.399 And what did you learn about this case and the 89 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:59.720 reason why this Brian Poindexter was willing or wanting to 90 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:01.120 dismissed this case. 91 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:10.279 The detective who was involved as the primary in the case, 92 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:18.120 let's say, Vain Buskirk, was intent on pursuing whoever started 93 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:24.519 the fire in the baby's nursery forever. Poindexter was aware 94 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:29.040 that the arson unit, that is, the one connected with 95 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:32.360 the Indianapolis Police Department, had referred to the fire as 96 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:36.360 suspicious rather than as arson because they were unable to 97 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:42.439 determine the specific cause of the fire. On the other hand, 98 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.480 the insurance company had done its own investigation, hired some 99 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:51.399 very qualified experts, and they had determined that it was arson. 100 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:58.519 So Poindexter, fearing that there would be conflicting evidence, had 101 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:02.240 decided that the case was which was already completely circumstantial, 102 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:06.240 could not be won, and so he was getting ready 103 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:10.199 to dismiss the case after discussing it at length with 104 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:16.079 the hired defense lawyer, of whom I think he was 105 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:20.480 a little well, let's say the defense lawyer had an 106 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:23.279 excellent reputation for winning in court. 107 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:31.519 Right, So you talked about Jimmy Boyles, this is a 108 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:37.000 defense lawyer. What are you shown at that meeting as 109 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:40.720 well as the information that you are as imparted to you? 110 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:46.920 Sure well I knew Jim Boyles, and that was neither 111 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:53.040 here nor there to me. What was most powerful about this, 112 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:58.079 about the meeting and about the case was a pograph 113 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:04.199 that Detective van Busker put in front of me and demanded, 114 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:10.000 where's Waldo? And it was a picture of the nursery 115 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:15.720 that looked very small and one could not see anything 116 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.480 except for char and rubble just a few inches off 117 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:22.839 the ground of the room. I mean it was a 118 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:26.279 stick or two of other things, but in general everything 119 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:32.039 was burned to the ground. And she kept demanding that 120 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.600 I look. And as I looked at the photograph, which was, 121 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:37.759 by the way, you know, blow up eight by ten, 122 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.159 I could see in a small corner a little white 123 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:47.320 speck and as one looked closer and closer to that photograph. 124 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:53.559 There were tiny genitals of a male baby under that diaper. 125 00:08:56.080 --> 00:09:01.000 And when she told me that the fire had only 126 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:07.480 burned for sixteen minutes, I knew, as the firefighters on 127 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:09.879 the scene knew that there was something terribly wrong. 128 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:18.320 What was decided? What did you decide that day? As 129 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:19.679 a result of that meeting. 130 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:29.039 We asked mister Poindexter to leave the room because his 131 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:34.080 decision was not controlling. I thought that perhaps my boss 132 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:39.279 would make the decision, but he diferrege, and I decided 133 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.759 that I had to do at least further investigation before 134 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:47.440 making an ultimate decision to dismiss a case where an 135 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:52.360 eight week old child was killed. And that was the decision. 136 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.320 What information did you get about Ray and Simon. 137 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:07.960 Well, it was after the investigation had been going for 138 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.559 a while and I was getting to know Detective van Buskirk, 139 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:13.799 who I had never worked was before. She was in 140 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:18.159 homicide and I was in arson. But she mentioned to 141 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:23.600 me that the father of the baby, there was something 142 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.519 horribly suspicious about the way he looked. She said he 143 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:31.559 had he had eyes that never blinked, And I asked 144 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:33.799 her how she knew that because it would be rare 145 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:40.000 for her to have spoken with him, and she said 146 00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:42.480 that it was from a video that she had received 147 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:46.840 from the Elkhart Police department, which was really surprising. Why 148 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:51.600 would Elkhart have a video of this person? And it 149 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:54.519 was at that point that Van Buskirk described to me 150 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:02.360 that the father of baby Matthew had been the primary 151 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:07.039 suspect in the killing of a very young teenage woman 152 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:12.879 named ray Ann Simmons who had been pregnant with twins 153 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:14.840 that they believed were his. 154 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:21.080 And how was she found? What was the condition that 155 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:22.000 she was found in? 156 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:27.919 She was found beaten and thrown in a grassy area. 157 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:33.600 Where everyone knew was that she had met with William Wise, 158 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:39.360 the name of baby Matthew's father, the evening before that 159 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:42.320 he had been the last person to see her alives, 160 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:50.000 and then he had indicated that he wanted to help police, 161 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.879 and when police focused on him, he claimed that he 162 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:59.679 had an alibi witness, and that alibi witness was the 163 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:01.840 mother or of baby Matthew. 164 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:10.320 Yes, Michelle, what did you say to Poindexter regarding this case? 165 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:16.840 I really just told him that the case was no 166 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:22.399 longer his and that we would do what we thought 167 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:28.679 was appropriate dumping the case or attempting to dump this case. 168 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.000 It's a very important case right after a new prosecutor 169 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:36.559 was elected. I perceived as a political play. But more 170 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:41.240 important than the politics, because politics are irrelevant to me 171 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:46.159 as a prosecutor. More important was the willingness to allow 172 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:51.360 someone to have killed an infant and not even attempt 173 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:53.120 to obtain justice for that baby. 174 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.360 Now, to understand this case, you had to look at 175 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.840 all of the available information. So how do you start 176 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:07.679 with this and before you start that information that journey 177 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:12.639 to look for that information. What is the just basic 178 00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:22.840 story or statement that William Wise said that faithful day. 179 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:27.120 I wasn't president, of course, when William Wise was questioned, 180 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:36.879 but Wise kept pointing to the fact that he thought 181 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.879 the fire was started by a baby monitor in the 182 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:45.000 child's room, and he claimed to have spent a great 183 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:52.799 deal of time supposedly trying to rescue the baby, and 184 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:57.200 that was his claim Michelle had He had told Michelle 185 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.799 after she did a number of things, because they had 186 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:02.440 a fire alarm in the house and the fire alarm 187 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.799 was going off, he had told Michelle to go and 188 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:10.519 call nine to one one from another location because he 189 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:19.879 claimed that the telephone service was not working. So what 190 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:23.759 we began to do is of course try and look 191 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:29.600 at that story and piece together what had happened. And 192 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.519 very quickly from the file I was able to determine, 193 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:36.840 and this is from the work that lessa than Buskerk 194 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:45.200 had done previously, that the fire had been had started 195 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:52.679 and been put out within sixteen minutes. And that was 196 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:57.399 determined based on witness testimony who had seen the house 197 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.799 early that morning and what Bill Wi said. He claimed 198 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.320 that he had gone to the bathroom. He was upstairs 199 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:06.639 where the baby was. This was a split four year house, 200 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:08.960 so there was an upstairs in the downstairs that he 201 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.279 had gone to the bathroom that was right down the 202 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:18.559 hall from the baby's room at five o'clock and seeing 203 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:23.320 the fire was out. So anyone who said any dealings 204 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:27.200 with fires knows that it takes a lot longer for 205 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:31.720 a fire to totally disintegrate a room than sixteen minutes. 206 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:42.600 Right, first responders, firefighters and police officers. I'm not certain. 207 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.000 I can't remember who arrived first, but what was the 208 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:53.200 response from William noted by these first responders, Well, the. 209 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:57.360 First person that we know of that came to the 210 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:01.759 house was actually a police officer. He was a motorcycle 211 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:06.279 officer and he had been cross trained as a firefighter 212 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:10.200 in North Carolina before he'd moved to Indianapolis. He immediately 213 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:14.080 ran to the house and he noticed two things. One 214 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:17.240 was that the front door was open, which is the 215 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:22.480 last thing that anyone trained in fires would do because 216 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:25.639 it allows more oxygen to go to the fire. He 217 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:28.720 was able to see that the fire was upstairs coming 218 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:32.000 out a window. And when he saw Bill Wise, Bill 219 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.919 Wise was dressed in what he thought was firefighter uniform, 220 00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:42.639 had hat, coat, boots, and Wise told him that there 221 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:46.840 was baby inside. What Wise never told him was that 222 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:51.240 it was his baby. And Wise never anywhere in the 223 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:56.960 investigation referred to his child by name. He only called 224 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:57.919 him the baby. 225 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:08.960 Yeah, you also found someone that delivered newspaper as a woman, 226 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.839 So you talk about this five oh nine, Michelle called 227 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:16.720 from a neighbor's house. Twenty seven seconds later he called 228 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.240 from a different neighbors and he had ran to two 229 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.160 neighbors homes. He was impatient that one went to another 230 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.000 at five ten. And you say that the fire was 231 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:31.319 out by five sixteen. What about this newspaper delivery person? 232 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.400 What did she have to say in terms of time. 233 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:38.160 So her name was Cynthia Newitty, and what she was 234 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:41.680 is she was helping her son on his newspaper route. 235 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:44.079 They had a very tight schedule because she had a 236 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:47.680 full time job. She was always very careful in the 237 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:50.799 early morning hours because it was dark, and she was female, 238 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:57.680 and she was widely careful about her surroundings. And so 239 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.599 she delivered a paper to the house next door. She 240 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:05.440 parked nearly in front of the Wise house, and the 241 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:09.000 baby's room was on the street side of the house. 242 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:13.200 She says that she saw no flames, no fire, nothing 243 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:17.359 at five o'clock, which was consistent with what Bill Wise 244 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.599 claimed about being in the bathroom. But what we know 245 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:27.119 is that between that time and when Wise allegedly was 246 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:30.839 running from house to house to call at nine to 247 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:34.400 one one is that he and Michelle were in the 248 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:39.759 house for a number of minutes, supposedly trying to turn 249 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:43.920 off the fire alarm. Why not run up and get 250 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:50.599 the baby, but instead they were on They were trying 251 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:55.400 to get the alarm off. Michelle ran up and down 252 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.160 multiple times, finally going downstairs to get her shoes on 253 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.720 to run across the streak. And when she called nine 254 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:07.920 one one, she never mentioned that her child was in 255 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.839 the house. So it was a very prompt response by firefighters. 256 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:16.960 And one of the issues was if bill Wise was 257 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:21.400 only twenty seven seconds behind Michelle, and we knew that 258 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.720 no attempt had been made to save the baby, what 259 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:28.440 could he possibly have done in those twenty seven seconds? 260 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:31.319 And we know that what he did was run to 261 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:36.359 one house, knock on the door, not received a prompt response, 262 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.599 and then walk run to another house. 263 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:46.519 Yeah, you made a request the bit to hear those 264 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:49.559 nine one one calls. But I know this is maybe 265 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.119 not chronological order here, But what do you discover in 266 00:19:54.200 --> 00:20:00.039 terms of where he was employed, his employment and and 267 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:03.279 that connection to that nine to eleven call. 268 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:12.039 Sure, it turns out that we initially found that bill 269 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:18.720 Wise was actually a dispatcher for the fire department. He 270 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:25.519 worked at what was called Mecca, and he knew all 271 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:30.720 about how wallet one calls come in, how they're responded to, 272 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.400 how quickly they'll be responded to, and he had been 273 00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:41.599 working there for quite a while. We also know that 274 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:47.640 the night before the fire, he had been grousing about 275 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:50.160 the fact that the baby cried all the. 276 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:56.640 Time, right, and so the idea that you also find 277 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:02.440 witnesses to say to talk about his marriage to Michelle, 278 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.400 the birth of this baby, and then you also just 279 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.680 mentioned that his complaint was that this baby was always 280 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:13.880 crying and getting his wife to get up and respond 281 00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.839 to this baby. Tell us a little bit more about 282 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:20.359 just some of the people that you find and this 283 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:26.359 testimony that speaks to his behavior. 284 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.319 Sure, well, by the time I'm involved, it's now two 285 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:37.079 years after the murder. For reasons that are far beyond me, 286 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:43.000 Wise had been permitted to be released on his own recognizance, 287 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:47.559 and he and Michelle had been out and about in 288 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:53.799 the community. They'd actually moved a couple of times. And 289 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.440 so what we started doing was piecing the information together 290 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:04.240 concerning his relationship with Michelle, the mother of baby Matthew, 291 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:09.880 and in doing that, she had worked at a bank 292 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:19.039 in Indianapolis. She was a very plain jane, not likely 293 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:27.519 to have dated much. Bank teller and her colleagues at 294 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:35.559 the bank knew very little about Wise, except that he 295 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:41.079 had urged Michelle to have an abortion. She got pregnant 296 00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:47.400 and he had strong control over her, and she had 297 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:52.079 an abortion. It was at that point that they supposedly 298 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:58.519 broke up, she moved back to Elkhart. He claims he 299 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:05.240 was dating other people, and then the issue of Hyanne 300 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:09.880 Simmons came up, so we knew about that, and obviously 301 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:15.480 at that point Michelle and William were back dating since 302 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.359 she was his alibi. And shortly thereafter, or at least 303 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:24.400 some time thereafter, she got pregnant again. According to the 304 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:28.039 bank folks, because we couldn't find any other friends of Michelle, 305 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.480 her banking colleagues again said that Wise wanted her to 306 00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:36.440 have an abortion, and this time she refused to do so. 307 00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:40.920 When they married, no one from the bank and no 308 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:47.839 one from Mecca was invited to the wedding. So whether 309 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:50.839 it was what one would call a shotgun wedding or not, 310 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:57.680 I don't know. But William Wise came back to Mecca 311 00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.039 and said that he was married and that Michelle was 312 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:04.720 having the baby. 313 00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:10.960 Yeah. In this investigation, you also find out that the 314 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:16.799 insurance company all State didn't have to do what they did, 315 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:22.559 but they did an extensive investigation themselves and went one 316 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:27.160 step further and created a replicate burn room. Tell us 317 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.119 about all State's involvement and what you learned. 318 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:35.960 All State did this fascinating thing that insurance companies rarely do. 319 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:39.720 I mean, the Wisest had only bought this house a 320 00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:43.960 few weeks before the fire, and so other than their 321 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.400 down payment, which we understood was very small, the rest 322 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.680 was the mortgage, and so All State, whether the house 323 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:56.720 burned by fire, by arson, or by some other cause 324 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:58.720 of a fire, was going to have to pay off 325 00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:05.559 the entire mortgage. Despite that fact, the representative for All 326 00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:10.880 State had to know what had happened in this nursery, 327 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.759 and so he convinced his company, All State to hire 328 00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:25.039 Barker Laboratories, a very well respected laboratory, to create not 329 00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:32.079 only as close as possible the same room nursery, but 330 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:36.240 also to fill it with the same type of items 331 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:42.640 as was in the actual nursery. After they paid for that, 332 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:46.160 and they had hired a fire cause and origin expert 333 00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:52.599 and an electrical engineer to look at various causes. Because 334 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:57.079 in his statement to their lawyers, Wise had again claimed 335 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:01.519 that the baby monitor had caused the fire, All State 336 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:08.880 chad these this laboratory recreate a fire as if it 337 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.839 would have started from a baby monitor. They actually took 338 00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.440 a torch to the same model and make baby monitor 339 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:23.599 that Bill Wise was blaming, and showed through video recording 340 00:26:24.759 --> 00:26:30.680 what would have happened, even if what he said was true, 341 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.200 what the room would have looked like at sixteen minutes, 342 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:38.799 at twenty minutes, at thirty minutes, at longer forty five minutes. 343 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:49.319 That video was conclusive that after sixteen minutes, if the 344 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:55.160 baby monitor had started the fire, which we later proved 345 00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:58.759 it could not have, but if it had, that after 346 00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:04.160 sixteen minutes, that room would have been ninety percent intact. 347 00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:09.920 That this fire, based on conditions in that nursery, would 348 00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:12.359 have would not have spread that quickly. 349 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:23.680 Right. What about the issue of alcohol rubbing alcohol ndismerit. 350 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:31.799 So both the fire investigator from Indianapolis Police and the 351 00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.079 fire investigator from Barker and Herbert Labs, both of them 352 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.880 concluded that the fire had to have been accelerated by 353 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:45.759 some form of accelerate. And people generally think of accelerants 354 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:50.440 as gasoline or some sort of fuel or oil or 355 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:54.119 petroleum product. But in this case, one of the things 356 00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:58.279 that we knew is that there had been alcohol in 357 00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:03.880 the nursery. Question was could that have been the accelerant 358 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:10.480 that Wise chose to use, and you know, being the 359 00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:14.160 skeptical prosecutor that I was, and I guess hard of 360 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:17.279 me still is. I wanted to know if alcohol could 361 00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:22.720 burn got once, but I'd never seen it, and so 362 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:30.640 I actually with some of the fire department personnel lit 363 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:33.240 and I'm talking about rubbing alcohol that you'd have a 364 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:37.079 baby in a baby's room, and interestingly, it does in 365 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:42.920 fact flare up instantly. And so that was one of 366 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.839 the issues was because we didn't have a gasoline can 367 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:54.480 found somewhere, did Wise use alcohol to accelerate the fire? 368 00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.480 And the actual whether it was alcohol or not was 369 00:28:58.599 --> 00:28:59.960 never actually. 370 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:08.359 Determin Let's fast forward to the point where you have 371 00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:17.440 enough information that you can put this information towards a 372 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:21.279 court and decide whether there's enough evidence to proceed to trial. 373 00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:25.839 And you say that Indiana has a unique situation. Tell 374 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:31.519 us about that, Well, in. 375 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:41.200 Indiana, there is a I'm a little I'm not sure 376 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:45.200 I understood your question. I apologize. 377 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:49.519 Well, all I wanted to do was to determine the 378 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:53.119 process that you were able to finally say yes, we 379 00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:56.480 have enough evidence, the judge could agree that you were 380 00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:00.920 able to proceed to trial. But you may something about 381 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:07.920 Indiana having a different approach than other states in that process, but. 382 00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:14.680 Sure well, certainly in this case because Brian Poindexter had 383 00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.440 had numerous conversations and hearings with the court. With Jim 384 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:24.000 Boyle's present, it was a true issue about whether or 385 00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:26.920 not the case should be dismissed, and the judge had 386 00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.160 an attitude that, based on what he'd heard so far, 387 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:35.000 that it was likely that the case would ultimately be dismissed, 388 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:38.279 and we had to essentially convince the judge that that 389 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.039 was not the case. The other major issue in this 390 00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:46.640 case is that the evidence was all circumstantial. We know, 391 00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:53.400 we mean prosecutors, that circumstantial evidence under the law is 392 00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:59.079 just as powerful as direct evidence, but on TV shows, 393 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:04.119 in in commentary, people who are not involved at the 394 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:08.000 law frequently think, oh, your case is only circumstantial, meaning 395 00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:11.799 that it's not legitimate, or that you cannot prove it. 396 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.839 And the answer is, with circumstantial evidence, you can prove 397 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:19.400 a case. You just have to do so, piece by 398 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:26.920 piece by piece, by peace proving the evidence is sufficient 399 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:32.440 to convince someone, and by someone, I mean twelve jurors, 400 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:38.000 because Indiana requires a unanimous verdict of twelve jurors. Other 401 00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:43.440