Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to Pink Shade. It's Thursday. It's PAP
Speaker 1: and Bravo Thursday, and I've got my friend Melissa here
Speaker 1: from your bish therapist. And Melissa, if people don't know
Speaker 1: where you got the title of your podcast, can you explain?
Speaker 1: I know, but i'd like you for explain to the people.
Speaker 2: Yes, of course. And thank you Mary Payne for having
Speaker 2: me back. I'm so grateful and excited to be here.
Speaker 2: I love you so much. So my name comes from
Speaker 2: miss Amy Phillips originally called herself Your Bitch Wife based
Speaker 2: on and I don't know if people remember this. This
Speaker 2: was kind of like a vintage Real Housewives of New
Speaker 2: Jersey back when Teresa and Jojudicce were married and they
Speaker 2: were at this winery and Joe was talking to someone
Speaker 2: on his phone who it seemed like was a mistress.
Speaker 2: But that was like huge drama anyway, So he says
Speaker 2: to this person on the phone, here she comes my
Speaker 2: bitch wife. Yea right, So Amy Phillips, she loved that,
Speaker 2: and I I mean I didn't love it for Theresa,
Speaker 2: but it was just a wild moment of pop culture
Speaker 2: or history, and so I called into Amy Phillips podcast,
Speaker 2: and I kind of got to know her a little bit.
Speaker 2: She had asked a question about lexapro and as a therapist,
Speaker 2: I DMed her and I said, Amy, please allow me
Speaker 2: to be your bitch therapist and she just loved it
Speaker 2: and she was like, oh my gosh, that's hilarious. And
Speaker 2: so then eventually she had me on her show when
Speaker 2: I wasn't even this, I was just a therapist and
Speaker 2: the name was born, and I just changed it to
Speaker 2: Bish because I didn't think having a curse in the
Speaker 2: title would help me necessarily, so.
Speaker 3: I kind of pivoted on that.
Speaker 2: But it really does all come from real households of
Speaker 2: New Jersey and Amy Phillips and your Bish was born.
Speaker 1: Was this when she was on Reality Checked? Or was
Speaker 1: this when she started Drama Darling?
Speaker 2: This was when she was on Reality Checked. It was
Speaker 2: at the very end, right before she left. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: so in reality for me, her leaving Reality Checked and
Speaker 2: starting her new drama Darling venture worked really well for me.
Speaker 3: And I love Amy.
Speaker 2: I love her anyway, whether she's on serious or doing
Speaker 2: her own thing.
Speaker 3: I think she's fabulous.
Speaker 2: But yes, this is right at that transition time that
Speaker 2: Yabish was born.
Speaker 1: Okay, I love it. Well, you know, I love Amy.
Speaker 1: She's a good friend of mine. And I think it's
Speaker 1: so funny because I do wonder sometimes if people aren't
Speaker 1: into Vintage Housewives, or they haven't watched every episode of
Speaker 1: every season like people like us have, they might be like,
Speaker 1: I wonder what your bish therapist means? So there, I'm
Speaker 1: an Now we've explained it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean because the name sounds it's so funny.
Speaker 2: It sounds so opposite to who I am, because you know,
Speaker 2: sure I can be you know, sassy and all of
Speaker 2: these things, but I'm mostly team humanity.
Speaker 3: I'm such the opposite of a bitch.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, it's so funny that that's my moniker.
Speaker 3: But you know, I adore Amy.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have it any other way, and I'm honored
Speaker 2: that this is the moniker.
Speaker 3: This is what we're going so great.
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of bitches, let's talk about some Bravo people
Speaker 1: in the news, and let's talk about Jill Zarren. All right,
Speaker 1: So it won't surprise you guys that I don't agree
Speaker 1: with Jill Zarren in her politics. We don't really talk
Speaker 1: politics here, but I felt what Jill did and if
Speaker 1: you guys don't know, I'll just tell you quickly. After
Speaker 1: Bad Bunnies halftime show, she went on a rant and
Speaker 1: you can find it anywhere. She took it down, but
Speaker 1: lots of people haven't include me you. She went on
Speaker 1: a rant about Bad bunny and the halftime show said
Speaker 1: it was anti American, said she didn't see any white people.
Speaker 1: She didn't recognize Lady Gaga, who's white. She didn't recognize
Speaker 1: her because of her facelift. She talked about Ricky Martin
Speaker 1: having a wig. She said she really just sort of
Speaker 1: tore the whole thing down. But really, her saying she
Speaker 1: didn't see enough white people and felt that there were
Speaker 1: subliminal messages and it was anti American got her fired
Speaker 1: from the job she's been trying for ten years to get.
Speaker 1: She has been trying for ten years to get back
Speaker 1: on TV, and she blew it, thinking everybody wants her opinion.
Speaker 1: On the halftime show, she even said Ali said I
Speaker 1: shouldn't say all this because I'm going to get canceled,
Speaker 1: but I have to say it. I'm sorry, And then
Speaker 1: in the comments she doubled down. People were like, you're right, Jill.
Speaker 1: You know, fuck the Puerto ricans, I don't know, and
Speaker 1: she's like, that's right. She doubled down in the comments
Speaker 1: because I read all of it in real time. Then
Speaker 1: she took it down and her excuses, what can I say,
Speaker 1: I'm human? Mm mmmmmmm mm. So she got fired. He
Speaker 1: has announced a new show called The Golden Hour and
Speaker 1: it is Ramona who let's just be honest, she's next
Speaker 1: Ramona Luayne, Kelly, Ben Simone Sonia. Right, so let me
Speaker 1: tell you what. Here's a prediction right here, right now,
Speaker 1: I predict Jill's gone. They're going to slide Torenda in.
Speaker 2: That's very interesting that you say that, because I do
Speaker 2: think Derinda feels chronically left out and she I mean
Speaker 2: speaking of bad behavior, you know, like there's a.
Speaker 1: Reason she's still in pause.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, well, and let me be honest,
Speaker 2: if you know, Bravo, whatever people want to say about Bravo,
Speaker 2: but Bravo knows.
Speaker 3: Who some of these women are.
Speaker 2: And I think that's why they didn't want this show
Speaker 2: back on Bravo. I mean, Bravo it's a community of
Speaker 2: inclusive people, allies and you know, advocates and all of that,
Speaker 2: and so I just I think that Jill's Jill's comments.
Speaker 2: Let me be clear, because I have people, I have
Speaker 2: more people arguing with me about this than other things,
Speaker 2: like other major things that I've said, like and you know,
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily talk a lot of politics either, but
Speaker 2: as a therapist, therapy is political, right. We have to
Speaker 2: support and advocate for marginalized groups and you know, cultural
Speaker 2: competence and all these things.
Speaker 3: I'd be the worst therapist in the world.
Speaker 2: If I was like, yeah, what Jill's saying is totally right.
Speaker 3: No, what Jill's saying, well, it.
Speaker 1: Would be like if you said, look her EXCU says
Speaker 1: she's human, and that's right. We're all human.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no. So here's here's my thought on this.
Speaker 2: I actually am an ambassador for a brand called I
Speaker 2: Am Human. I'm not kidding. Yeah, I'm an ambassador. It's
Speaker 2: I am Human. It is a clothing brand. Check it
Speaker 2: out i am human dot com. But and this was
Speaker 2: not meant to be a plug. But I am Team Humanity,
Speaker 2: and I am here to say that Jill's apology was
Speaker 2: a non apology. It was one of the worst non
Speaker 2: apology Housewives apologies we've ever seen. And being human doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that you get to spout off about being racist
Speaker 2: and hateful, and you know, America isn't just about white folks,
Speaker 2: and there's a group of people who If that's what
Speaker 2: you think America is, then you are woefully uneducated and misinformed.
Speaker 3: That's that's what I'll say.
Speaker 2: And I think that being human means that, yes, we
Speaker 2: make mistakes and we screw up, and we deserve grace.
Speaker 3: What Jill did wasn't a human mistake.
Speaker 2: She was outright racist, doubled down on it in her comments,
Speaker 2: and then this non apology apology was a pr move
Speaker 2: to sort of like, she still won't just say I
Speaker 2: was wrong.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Part of being human means when we make a misstep,
Speaker 2: we have to take accountability and ownership. So if Jill
Speaker 2: had said something like I didn't realize what I said
Speaker 2: was racist, that wasn't my intention, And I have now
Speaker 2: educated myself about, you know, the values that other cultures bring,
Speaker 2: and also celebrating other cultures doesn't mean that we have
Speaker 2: to hate or dislike them, like, we can celebrate other
Speaker 2: cultures while still appreciating our own. I think that's the
Speaker 2: thing that gets lost in this too. So, no, Jill's
Speaker 2: not human, She royally screwed up. She is making excuses.
Speaker 2: She does not deserve that apology, does not deserve empathy.
Speaker 2: It tells me that she is surrounded by an echo
Speaker 2: chamber of people who think just like her, and she
Speaker 2: is not open to learning or hearing anything different, and
Speaker 2: that is a real problem.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that you just in that last sentence,
Speaker 1: you nailed Jill not open to learning or anything different,
Speaker 1: because the behavior that we've seen of her is sort
Speaker 1: of constantly like, well, this is the way it should
Speaker 1: be and you're wrong. Like she goes around hotels and
Speaker 1: it is like, Hi, I'm at the I'm at the
Speaker 1: Rich Carlton of so and so, a five star hotel,
Speaker 1: and I got to tell you, whatever is the sinth
Speaker 1: they've got, it's wrong. They shouldn't have this scint and
Speaker 1: the hallways people don't like it. And you're like, exactly right,
Speaker 1: what what? So Yet, I think that that's always been
Speaker 1: her way, and it may be endearing and fun. If
Speaker 1: you're like kind of her part time Brandon and you
Speaker 1: see her four times a year, you may be like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's a lot. She's fun to go on a trip
Speaker 1: with bench And we joked that that's her personality, but
Speaker 1: I think in real life and I just want to
Speaker 1: again and I want to get your opinion. What is
Speaker 1: it like? I had an opinion on the Bad Bunny thing.
Speaker 1: My opinion is it was interesting. I don't speak Spanish,
Speaker 1: I know that one song, but I was interested afterwards,
Speaker 1: just like I was with the Kendrick Lamar last year,
Speaker 1: to afterwards find out all the symbolism, because when they
Speaker 1: do these halftime shows, yes, a lot of it is symbolism,
Speaker 1: and if you're not like a huge fan, you don't know,
Speaker 1: so it's cool later to go and see this meant this.
Speaker 1: This meant that, right, if Billie Ailish did a halftime show,
Speaker 1: nobody would have to explain it to me. I would
Speaker 1: know all the symbolism, right, But Bad Bunny and Kendrick
Speaker 1: Lamar I did not, So I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 1: I don't sit in my car and listen to Bad
Speaker 1: Bunny all day, and again I don't speak Spanish. I
Speaker 1: just enjoyed it because I thought it was interesting. But
Speaker 1: I did not feel the need to put a camera
Speaker 1: in my face and go on social media and explain that,
Speaker 1: because who gives a flying fuck what I think? Like?
Speaker 1: It was it wasn't for me, do you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? It wasn't for me. Sure, sure, And that's
Speaker 1: what I'm asking. What is the need to go to
Speaker 1: social media and give your hot takes?
Speaker 3: Oh boy?
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's a different set of issues, I'm sure.
Speaker 2: Well, and no, it's such a good question. And I
Speaker 2: love your comparison to the Kendrick Lamar thing because a
Speaker 2: lot of white people didn't get that either, And I'm
Speaker 2: just saying, like, as a white person, it's like there
Speaker 2: were a lot of folks who that was in English,
Speaker 2: but they were like, I don't understand this. But to
Speaker 2: your point, it's like, if you're a fan of the person,
Speaker 2: you understand the symbolism, like for example.
Speaker 3: Bad Bunny, the whole.
Speaker 2: Uh electric power thing where they kind of fell from
Speaker 2: that was a nod. And when Puerto Rico was without
Speaker 2: power for six months and there was no funding and
Speaker 2: no one gave a shit. So there there was a
Speaker 2: lot of cultural significance in what in the songs and
Speaker 2: what he was saying. And now I think that what
Speaker 2: makes people feel emboldened to put a camera in front
Speaker 2: of their face and and talk about it is I'm
Speaker 2: going to be honest, it's narcissism.
Speaker 3: And it's also.
Speaker 2: A really narrow worldview because Jill believes that everybody should
Speaker 2: think like her, right, and that is just not there's
Speaker 2: narcissism in that, like narcissist is the most overused word,
Speaker 2: like narcissist gaslighting, right, it's very overused. But we are
Speaker 2: talking about narcissistic traits and tendencies, which we all have,
Speaker 2: by the way, myself included, we all have those. I
Speaker 2: kind of look at it on a scale from you know,
Speaker 2: you know, not having a lot of traits and tendencies
Speaker 2: kind of on the left side and having.
Speaker 3: Tendan size right, yeah.
Speaker 2: Where it crosses over into disorder, because people can have
Speaker 2: narcissistic traits and tendencies without having a narcissistic person disorder
Speaker 2: or an antisocial personality disorder. But the closer you move
Speaker 2: over to this right side when it crosses into disorder, right,
Speaker 2: And that's for the person's therapist or psychologist or psychiatrist
Speaker 2: to figure out. But Jill is definitely somewhere on that
Speaker 2: line thinking that I'm going to say this and all
Speaker 2: people are going to support me, And again that just
Speaker 2: tells me not only that there's narcissism. There's also entitlement
Speaker 2: that she thinks her opinion should matter so much to
Speaker 2: the world, Like who cares what Jill thinks? As they
Speaker 2: said on the view, like who cares?
Speaker 1: Are we sitting around like, oh god, it's over. I
Speaker 1: can't wait to hear her, Jill Zarren has to say.
Speaker 3: Right right, yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's a mix of narcissism, it's a mix of entitlement.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit of kind of I'm going to
Speaker 2: be honest, a little bit of delusion because I think
Speaker 2: it just speaks to who Jill surrounds herself with. She probably,
Speaker 2: you know, Jill can never hear that she's wrong. She
Speaker 2: can never he that she's made a mistake. And so
Speaker 2: she's not going to be spending time with people who
Speaker 2: challenge her perspectives or give her different sides of things.
Speaker 2: They're gonna be all people who think just like her.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because her, uh, her boyfriend in the background,
Speaker 1: you could hear him going okay, no, you could hear
Speaker 1: him like disagreeing with her. And she said in the comments,
Speaker 1: Alie said, I'm going to get canceled. And Zara and Fabrics,
Speaker 1: which was owned by her former husband put out a
Speaker 1: picture of her face with a giant X on it
Speaker 1: and said, we do not support racism, bigotry. The fact
Speaker 1: that they put her headshot with an X on it
Speaker 1: with their statement was.
Speaker 2: Wild, so wild, so wild. But you know what it's like,
Speaker 2: what I appreciate is that people are We live in
Speaker 2: a very tenuous situation right now in the United States,
Speaker 2: and I just love that there's a lot of advocacy
Speaker 2: for cultural competence and appreciation of cultures that are different
Speaker 2: than ours.
Speaker 3: And I also thought it was hilarious.
Speaker 2: But did you see that the grandson didn't ask me
Speaker 2: anything on Reddit?
Speaker 1: And I, oh, my step grandson. So it's bobby grandson's
Speaker 1: it's her ex husband, I mean, not her, her former
Speaker 1: husband who died. Bobby's is Bobby's grandson, so her step grandson. Right.
Speaker 2: But I was I was seated and ready, and I
Speaker 2: was just like, that is wild, you know. But Sarah Fabrics,
Speaker 2: it's a business, and by the way, a business in
Speaker 2: New York, which hello is the Melting Post, right, and
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, a business and hopefully they really
Speaker 2: believe the things that they said.
Speaker 3: But I totally understand why they were.
Speaker 2: Like, do not associate this with us because they also
Speaker 2: just don't want that smoke.
Speaker 1: It's it's it is just it is like Troy behind
Speaker 1: the Blinds podcast posted and said, one thing about Jill,
Speaker 1: she's always going to fumble her bag, and that's right,
Speaker 1: one thing about her just when she's worked for ten
Speaker 1: years to get back on TV, she's gonna fuck it
Speaker 1: up and she has nobody to blame but herself. And
Speaker 1: it's everything about it is sad. But I am at
Speaker 1: see if you agree with me. I am stunned that
Speaker 1: the next day E fired her because people don't get
Speaker 1: fired over this shit, Melissa. People just don't.
Speaker 3: Well here's the thing.
Speaker 2: People don't get fired over this shit. Maybe other places,
Speaker 2: but I think E is just you know, I just
Speaker 2: think that there's a different generation, you know, running things
Speaker 2: or having input with things, and it's just I like
Speaker 2: that it's not being tolerated.
Speaker 3: I mean, was I so prized?
Speaker 2: Yeah, shocked, shocked, But am I supportive of it?
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
Speaker 2: In my comments on Instagram, people kept saying, you know
Speaker 2: faf FO, which is you know, f around and find out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we say this all the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I just I love that actions do
Speaker 2: have consequences, and sometimes we live in a world where
Speaker 2: it feels like that's not happening, right, And so I
Speaker 2: think people myself included, it's like, well, this might be
Speaker 2: a small win, but we consider it a win because
Speaker 2: someone somewhere is paying attention and holding someone accountable for something. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's not going to fix the world, but hey, Jill's
Speaker 2: Aaron fumbled her bag. Full agree on that, and she
Speaker 2: has nobody to blame but herself.
Speaker 3: Because here's the thing.
Speaker 2: Ramona is as equally as problematic, let's be real, if
Speaker 2: not significantly more problematic, if I'm being honest.
Speaker 3: But he is.
Speaker 2: Smart enough to keep her racism quiet. Now she is
Speaker 2: smart well, and it's not I mean, I'm being facetious
Speaker 2: obviously because I don't tolerate racism, but she, even Ramona
Speaker 2: is going to be like, oh, well, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to do that. You know, She's learned about what to
Speaker 2: say and where to say it, I think, and so,
Speaker 2: but I am just wondering. I'm like, well, where are
Speaker 2: people reviewing Ramona's you know, tweets and her stuff on
Speaker 2: social media and her ridiculous racist rants, Like where is
Speaker 2: all that for me? I'm just not here for this
Speaker 2: new reboot. I know that Countess Luanne is an advocate
Speaker 2: and an ally, and Kelly ben Simone made a statement too,
Speaker 2: but I'm just like, I don't know, do we really?
Speaker 3: Oh Sonia?
Speaker 1: I had to immediately host clips of her from the
Speaker 1: show where it's like I love all my Latin friends,
Speaker 1: I'm at my I'm It's gay Tuesday at my house.
Speaker 1: She I mean, within thirty minutes she had all those
Speaker 1: clips ready showing how she's and I was like, whos
Speaker 1: Sonya's he was pulling those clips because how could you
Speaker 1: even remember the twenty years ago she said I love
Speaker 1: all my Latin gaze? Like, how could she tell you
Speaker 1: that clip so fast?
Speaker 3: I was like, so I know, but also I do.
Speaker 2: I think it is hilarious to be like there was
Speaker 2: someone else and the name is escaping me. That was like,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh. Brandy Glanville tweeted about She's like, well,
Speaker 2: I love bad Bunny and I think he's so hot.
Speaker 3: But Jill has the right.
Speaker 2: To her opinion, and it's like, are we really trying
Speaker 2: to say I'm attracted to Puerto Rican men so therefore
Speaker 2: it's not racist?
Speaker 3: Like is that really what we're trying to do here.
Speaker 3: But Sonya's think too.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, I have friends who are Puerto Rican
Speaker 2: and all this stuff, and it's like, Okay, let me
Speaker 2: be really clear. We cannot be allies or advocates for
Speaker 2: a marginalized group if we're voting actively against their rights, right,
Speaker 2: That's what I'm going to say. And so having someone
Speaker 2: having friends who are Puerto Rican or Latin, or finding
Speaker 2: someone in a tract of like bad Bunny, that's not like,
Speaker 2: that's not advocacy. That's kind of performative and all of
Speaker 2: that stuff. But I just think Sonya is you know, Sonya,
Speaker 2: it's Sonya Rita. She's just like, that's her personality.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think that was intended to be. You know,
Speaker 2: I don't know what the word I'm looking for.
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's hilarious that she still
Speaker 1: has an intern that can, at the blink of an
Speaker 1: eye pull up a clip from her from twenty years
Speaker 1: ago incorporating Latin gay culture. You know, it was like,
Speaker 1: oh god, listen, I got a porter twice every year.
Speaker 1: I love it. You know, You're like, wow, she's got
Speaker 1: somebody working double time pulling these things. I know, I
Speaker 1: love it. I was like, yes, Luanne always on the
Speaker 1: right side. Now not always probably, but not when she
Speaker 1: tried to when she threatened to murder the cop.
Speaker 3: But oh yeah, I forget about that.
Speaker 1: So we'll see what happens with this new show. I'm
Speaker 1: predicting they're gonna slide Durinda in, who also got in
Speaker 1: some trouble after the Traders for her behavior towards Ron.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Derinda has just had real bad behavior for a really
Speaker 2: long time.
Speaker 1: And so she's not getting back on Bravo.
Speaker 3: She will.
Speaker 1: She is on Radio Andy with Keikim Monique, which I
Speaker 1: can I have no clue and no personal knowledge, but
Speaker 1: I can imagine it's a daily struggle for keik But
Speaker 1: I have no knowledge of this. I'm just projecting imagine
Speaker 1: it would be hard. So she is on Radio Andy,
Speaker 1: but she's never been invited back to be on any
Speaker 1: show on Bravo. Yeah, you know, I think funny crappy
Speaker 1: Lake's been off with Derenda nothing, So I don't think
Speaker 1: she's ever getting back on Bravo. So she better really
Speaker 1: make sure she keeps her mouth shut because she wants
Speaker 1: to be back on TV. Too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Derenda it has that same thing as Jill,
Speaker 2: where they just cannot keep their mouth closed. They just
Speaker 2: think that their voices need to be heard all the time,
Speaker 2: and again there's a narcissism entitlement, but also listen, a
Speaker 2: desire for attention, which is fair, like all humans need
Speaker 2: love and attention and support. We all do that, but
Speaker 2: I think they need to do that privately and give
Speaker 2: up the ghost of trying to be beloved by fans,
Speaker 2: like maybe do some internal work, love yourself and then
Speaker 2: get the love and support from the people around you
Speaker 2: instead of you know, from I.
Speaker 1: Think Jill loves herself a lot. I think she's doing
Speaker 1: just fine with that.
Speaker 3: She does tend to love herself a lot.
Speaker 2: But sometimes people like that, there are a lot of
Speaker 2: kernels underneath that of really not feeling good enough. Sometimes
Speaker 2: it's overcompensating, and sometimes they really do believe that, and
Speaker 2: then that can be part of a greater issue.
Speaker 1: That's why does yeah Jack Saylor Okay, And when I
Speaker 1: say Jax, I mean he has discussed, he's obviously diagnosed.
Speaker 1: What did he say? He goes He was a nine
Speaker 1: out of a ten on the narcissism scale. Or whatever,
Speaker 1: and we're like, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah he said that
Speaker 1: on one of the Valley After shows in the first season.
Speaker 1: He goes, yeah, I took that test and I was
Speaker 1: like nine out of ten on the I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm surprised you weren't eleven out of ten.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surprised they didn't find a new scoring system
Speaker 2: for checks Taylor.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So we haven't heard from him in a while.
Speaker 1: My understanding of that is that allegedly he was in
Speaker 1: a full, you know, four month rehabah, which is what
Speaker 1: he needed, which is what he needs to be away
Speaker 1: he did and not be able to come home and
Speaker 1: check his mail.
Speaker 3: And terrorist Brittany Dey on camera, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Ury rehab. Okay, that's Jill's err and we solve that. Now,
Speaker 1: let's see if we can solve the Karen Huger interview. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I watched it now last week I talked to
Speaker 1: Dylan and Pat a Bad TV about it, but they
Speaker 1: had not fully seen it. They had only seen clips.
Speaker 1: I studied it like the Uppruval film because I couldn't
Speaker 1: get over the new nose. You guys, I know that's
Speaker 1: not important, but she got that nose job before she
Speaker 1: went to prison, because which they showed her come out
Speaker 1: and she had the braids and the due rag and stuff,
Speaker 1: she'll real cute and everything when they if we're to
Speaker 1: believe that was not a reenaction, which I can't imagine
Speaker 1: she went to the courthouse and reenacted that with flashbulbs
Speaker 1: and stuff, assuming that was when she actually came out
Speaker 1: and she gets in the car, they got the go pros.
Speaker 1: She had that nose, She had that new nose. Because
Speaker 1: when I just first saw the clips, I was like,
Speaker 1: new nos do this, But then when I saw the
Speaker 1: whole episode with her coming out, I was like, she's
Speaker 1: already got the new nose. So she got that new
Speaker 1: nose before she went to prison, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: kind of smart gave it time to settle.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's true, that's accurate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because other people were like, if she got out
Speaker 1: in September and this interview is airing in January, she
Speaker 1: definitely didn't get out of prison, go right to it
Speaker 1: surgeon and have two months to recover and have a
Speaker 1: nose look like this by the time she's a interviewed
Speaker 1: with Andy. There's just not enough time.
Speaker 3: One thousand percent.
Speaker 2: Yes, proven by the fact that we've seen some of
Speaker 2: our housewives get work done right before like.
Speaker 3: The season starts.
Speaker 2: Yes, you can tell like Vicky Gunfilson, and you can
Speaker 2: tell that something's off like it does take time. So
Speaker 2: that is a good breakdown because I asked you before
Speaker 2: we started filming this, I was like, when did she
Speaker 2: do it? And but then it's like, if you think
Speaker 2: about that, right, does not that also inform our perspective
Speaker 2: about this interview where it's like, so you were going
Speaker 2: to be on trial, you weren't listening to your lawyers,
Speaker 2: you were in rehab, and you also found time to
Speaker 2: get plastic surgery, Like, does that not inform our thinking
Speaker 2: about what Karen's priorities are?
Speaker 3: That's wild.
Speaker 1: It is wild to me, and you know the listeners
Speaker 1: know here. You know my husband is recovering alcoholic. He's
Speaker 1: eleven years sober. So I am very familiar with the language. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank congratulations to him. I'm very familiar with the language.
Speaker 1: I'm familiar with rehab. He was in a rehab facility
Speaker 1: for ninety days in Utah. I'm familiar with the trauma.
Speaker 1: I'm familiar with what it does to your family. I'm
Speaker 1: familiar what it does to the addict, all of it. Okay,
Speaker 1: personal lived experience is what I'm going from this. I
Speaker 1: can't imagine that he would let's just say he came
Speaker 1: out of rehab and his first thing would be like,
Speaker 1: you know, I've never felt my teeth are white enough,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna give venears. I can't imagine it would
Speaker 1: be on his mind. His whole being is like, I
Speaker 1: am trying to be sober today, right, I'm not considering
Speaker 1: going under anesthesia so I can get some painkillers to
Speaker 1: get a procedure.
Speaker 3: Boom boom. Because that's the other thing. And because so
Speaker 3: you have that lived experience.
Speaker 2: And I spent a lot of my career working in
Speaker 2: in PA drug and alcohol treatment, so I also have
Speaker 2: a very good understanding. I've seen people, you know, sick
Speaker 2: and under the influence of that addictive thinking, and then
Speaker 2: you see them when they cross over into recovery. And
Speaker 2: there is something about people who are truly working one
Speaker 2: day at a time to save their own lives. And
Speaker 2: the one thing I'll say is there is one cornerstone
Speaker 2: that you'll see among people who are really doing the work,
Speaker 2: and that is humility. Humility, to me is one of
Speaker 2: those things that It's like if someone comes out of
Speaker 2: treatment and they're still having so much hubris about you
Speaker 2: know this or that, or if they haven't let all
Speaker 2: of that go and surrendered. To me, that's still addictive thinking,
Speaker 2: that's still alcoholic thinking. There's still so much illness that
Speaker 2: I see in that lack of humility.
Speaker 3: If that makes sense, well.
Speaker 1: I needed to give Jax is another example of just
Speaker 1: you know, we're just going with people on our television guys,
Speaker 1: not people we actually know. But if we look at
Speaker 1: Jackson as an example of somebody with no humility, right
Speaker 1: just never would accept he had a problem. Now, we
Speaker 1: don't know with what he's been doing. Now if maybe
Speaker 1: we will actually see some growth in him, it would
Speaker 1: be shocking because we're so used to seeing no growth.
Speaker 1: But maybe, you know, we'll see. But with Karen, she
Speaker 1: flip flopped so much during this interview to say no,
Speaker 1: she's not an alcoholic and then later said alcoholism, So
Speaker 1: which one is it? And then she said, like she
Speaker 1: corrected Andy when he said he drove drunk four times,
Speaker 1: She's like, love me, correct you. Only two of those
Speaker 1: were DUIs. Two of the other ones were alcohol related incidents.
Speaker 1: And that's parsing like I'm just again my own experience
Speaker 1: with my husband and other addicts in my life would
Speaker 1: never say, well, well I did that, but I didn't
Speaker 1: do that because they quickly know how to replace the
Speaker 1: language and go. But it's not about what I did
Speaker 1: compared to this or that. It's about taking accountability for
Speaker 1: what I did right.
Speaker 2: Right. The language that Karen used throughout this interview, she
Speaker 2: was speaking out of both sides of her mouth, which
Speaker 2: that told me that she has not changed.
Speaker 3: This has not sunk in for her.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: In fairness, we have both seen that to get into recovery,
Speaker 2: it's a long, lengthy process.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Not only do you have the detox in the withdrawal
Speaker 2: period when you first stop using, you have what's called
Speaker 2: post acute withdrawal syndrome PAUSE for short that can last
Speaker 2: for years.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah, So I.
Speaker 2: Say this because I do hope that Karen can get there,
Speaker 2: But the language is incongruent with her actions. She is
Speaker 2: still trying to make excuses for her behaviors. Correcting Andy
Speaker 2: was so bold and just so stupid, because someone who's
Speaker 2: really in recovery. Part of being in recovery, especially if
Speaker 2: you're working a twelve step program. A lot of it
Speaker 2: is looking at our character defects and owning and saying yes,
Speaker 2: making amends for these are the decisions that I made.
Speaker 2: Someone who is truly owning something accountable and making amends
Speaker 2: through their behaviors is not going to quabble over a
Speaker 2: couple of words that Andy said there is still so
Speaker 2: much narcissism, and that there's still entitlement, there's still a
Speaker 2: willfulness that you can't have that wilfulness and be sober,
Speaker 2: because the whole thing with sobriety is surrender, surrendering that
Speaker 2: right there is something greater than ourselves, and Karen has
Speaker 2: most certainly her language has told me she has not surrendered.
Speaker 2: If anything, What actually made me angry and I cannot
Speaker 2: wait to watch the reunion is that Karen how slips
Speaker 2: into this reunion even though she was in jail for
Speaker 2: the entire season. And I watch her reading Wendy and
Speaker 2: it's like, listen, honey, you need to sit down, take
Speaker 2: some accountability of your life before you try reading anybody.
Speaker 3: You need to look at your own self. And that's
Speaker 3: just how I know she's full of it. She is
Speaker 3: full of it. Yeah, I don't like it.
Speaker 1: I didn't like how she quabbled over if she was
Speaker 1: in NA or AA and how she was addicted to
Speaker 1: pills not alcohol. Alcohol was not calling to her, and
Speaker 1: Andy goes, it was definitely called to you the night
Speaker 1: you got the dui, and she was like, it wasn't
Speaker 1: calling to me that night. It doesn't matter if it
Speaker 1: was calling to you. You got a dui. You were like
Speaker 1: four times over the legal limit. We saw the video
Speaker 1: right right.
Speaker 2: It's so common, though, to see people have more comfort
Speaker 2: with using A over B like I would see that all.
Speaker 3: The time time and impatient treatment.
Speaker 2: They're comfortable with I use alcohol, but I'm not comfortable
Speaker 2: with saying I use methamphetamines.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: That part is human.
Speaker 2: But what angered me to no extent that I will
Speaker 2: happily talk about right now is that she weaponized antidepressants
Speaker 2: as the cause for her behavior. And so let me
Speaker 2: because this is something I talked about on my podcast and.
Speaker 3: A lot of people felt they appreciated it.
Speaker 2: I believe Karen is using the broad term antidepressant to
Speaker 2: mask some things that she was really doing.
Speaker 1: She would not say what it was because the pharmaceutical
Speaker 1: company's going to sue her.
Speaker 2: Well, here's why what, Because if she's making claims that
Speaker 2: an antidepressant led to drunk driving, she will get sued
Speaker 2: because that is patently false. Antidepressants, Now, there are different
Speaker 2: levels of antidepressants. I'm not going to go all dorky
Speaker 2: science here, but there's SSRIs select serotonin reuptake inhibitors and
Speaker 2: then s NRIs selective neuroepenephrine reuptake inhibitors. Those medications like paxel, lexapro, prozac,
Speaker 2: things like that, those don't cause drunk driving. Those are
Speaker 2: life saving for people who struggle with depression. And I'm
Speaker 2: going to be honest myself included. I'm a lexapro gal here.
Speaker 1: I have a question.
Speaker 3: I take a fixer.
Speaker 1: Which one is that? Which which category is? Effects are
Speaker 1: in Vincent's vinyl flexifhlene as I like.
Speaker 3: I know all those names are really really hard to say.
Speaker 2: I've actually taken effects or two and I I didn't
Speaker 2: have good luck on that.
Speaker 3: I've taken it.
Speaker 1: For surprise eleven years.
Speaker 2: Well, listen, if it works for you, that's great. Okay,
Speaker 2: So it is effects or is an s n R I? Okay,
Speaker 2: So lexapro is an SSRI I? Okay an SNRI I
Speaker 2: didn't work for me, So an SNR I did work
Speaker 2: for you, and that's what effects her. Is now, what
Speaker 2: I believe that Karen may have been talking about is
Speaker 2: something like xanax or adavan, which xanax is a benzodiazepine.
Speaker 1: Benzon now correct.
Speaker 2: So benzo diazepines, for those who don't know, are highly addictive.
Speaker 2: And when you mix a benzodiazepine with alcohol, that honestly
Speaker 2: could be deadly.
Speaker 3: And I will tell you what is a benzodiazepine.
Speaker 2: It's going to decrease your heart rate, your respiratory rate.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like a nervous system. It calms your
Speaker 2: nervous system, right, it's and it's not an antidepressant, but
Speaker 2: it can be helpful when used clinically appropriately for short
Speaker 2: term for panic and anxiety disorders and things like that.
Speaker 1: Okay, xanax, I talk about it all the time. The
Speaker 1: joke in our house is half a XANX, half a
Speaker 1: xanax because if I ever have to fly, and not
Speaker 1: as much as I used to be cause I fly
Speaker 1: so much now, but it used to any time I
Speaker 1: had to fly, I would be like, I have to
Speaker 1: take a half of a innex and that's like the
Speaker 1: kids make a joke like, oh, Mom's gonna take a
Speaker 1: half a Anex I got. I really wish I wouldn't
Speaker 1: make that joke because it does make me sound like
Speaker 1: I have a problem. I get a Xanax prescription that'll
Speaker 1: last me like two years, because if I ever have anxiety,
Speaker 1: and it used to be every year. I'll give you
Speaker 1: another example. We had a Christmas party every year. It's
Speaker 1: the maximum, twenty five to thirty people, not a big party,
Speaker 1: but for some reason, I would get so sweaty, like
Speaker 1: I'm just right now, like my mouth would get dry,
Speaker 1: it'd be sweaty. I'd be so freaking dirpous. I could
Speaker 1: feel it just my heart going out of my chest,
Speaker 1: like why, And I would at Christmas take the half
Speaker 1: the Xanx. I wouldn't have a drink at the party
Speaker 1: because I know you're not supposed to, but I would say,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to take half a a Innex. And
Speaker 1: so at my wedding, I was about to walk down
Speaker 1: the aisle and had a Carrie Bradshaw get this dress
Speaker 1: all of me moment. Had to take the whole thing off.
Speaker 1: And it's not because I didn't want to get me.
Speaker 1: I hate the idea and this is again counterintuitive to
Speaker 1: what I do for my job. I hate the idea
Speaker 1: of people looking at me. Sure, right, and that's why
Speaker 1: I hate that. Now we're all on video whatever, but
Speaker 1: that's a whole nother thing. But I hate the idea
Speaker 1: of everybody looking at me and my mom. This is
Speaker 1: I've told the story a million times. My mom pulled
Speaker 1: out like an old lady pill bottle out of her bag,
Speaker 1: which had like Tom's admil.
Speaker 3: I love that.
Speaker 1: I don't know what else she had in there. She
Speaker 1: poured it out on the couch like xanax covered in Rolds. Right,
Speaker 1: and my friend, who's a pharm d a doctorate of pharmacy,
Speaker 1: looked at all of them and she knew what they were.
Speaker 1: She got the xanax, gave me like a quarter of
Speaker 1: whatever it was. She talks about that twenty five years.
Speaker 1: My friend still talks about this day. She was like,
Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like that your mom. I was like,
Speaker 1: my mom has probably had that onex for ten years.
Speaker 3: For twenty years.
Speaker 1: Waiting for somebody to need it, and it's covered in
Speaker 1: like tones enroll a. Does you just liked it off?
Speaker 1: To me, and twenty minutes later I was okay.
Speaker 2: Right, well, listen, let me be super clear, because I have.
Speaker 1: You need it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have complex PTSD and I do have a
Speaker 2: lot of struggles with panic and anxiety due to medical trauma.
Speaker 3: And so is xanax.
Speaker 2: I use little bits in like intermittently, and so I'm
Speaker 2: not here to say that xanax is bad or you
Speaker 2: shouldn't ever use it. But what I think happened with
Speaker 2: Karen is she she's claimed that she got the prescription right,
Speaker 2: and then you know she's mixing it with alcohol.
Speaker 3: And then she.
Speaker 1: Wasn't really saying that, Melissa really saying she's mixing with alcohol,
Speaker 1: which obviously is what.
Speaker 2: It was, well clearly, But I guess what I'm saying
Speaker 2: to you and to everyone listening is there's a way
Speaker 2: to use xanax's short term.
Speaker 3: Acutely for exactly what it is that you said. If
Speaker 3: your nervous system.
Speaker 2: Is jacked up and you literally are having panic in anxiety,
Speaker 2: it can help calm your nervous system down. Beta blockers
Speaker 2: are good for that too. But what happens is sometimes
Speaker 2: people get them prescribed and they don't know that they
Speaker 2: shouldn't take them every day, because what will happen with
Speaker 2: a benzodiazepine like that is you need more and more
Speaker 2: and more to get the same effect. And so I've
Speaker 2: had some people had to come into treatment because, let's
Speaker 2: say a PCP prescribed it, they were taking it every
Speaker 2: day and it lost effectiveness, and then their body became
Speaker 2: physiologically dependent upon it.
Speaker 1: More correct, more correct.
Speaker 2: So what you're talking about is the appropriate way to
Speaker 2: use it. I use it appropriately too. If I'm having
Speaker 2: a panic attack or you know, a moment where my
Speaker 2: nervous system is jacked up, I will take a very
Speaker 2: small dose of it temporarily. That's what it's used for.
Speaker 2: But Karen is just weaponizing. She's trying to use semantics,
Speaker 2: which bothers me. And that's also how I can tell
Speaker 2: that she's not really doing the work. She's doing semantics
Speaker 2: to kind of pick and choose her accountability and it's
Speaker 2: just not it's just not flying. So but to be clear,
Speaker 2: that's why she couldn't make the statement because she would
Speaker 2: have gotten sued for making false claims about antidepressants.
Speaker 1: Can I just say, why couldn't she just say? You know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say specifically but it was a benzo.
Speaker 1: I don't want to say specifically, but it was an SSRI.
Speaker 1: I don't know why she wouldn't say that, because it
Speaker 1: just leads us to be like, it could have been this,
Speaker 1: It could have been that, It could have been this,
Speaker 1: it could have been heroin. I mean, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like, why wouldn't she say?
Speaker 2: Well, I think because she's she's The word that I'll
Speaker 2: use is she's obfuse skating like it's one of my
Speaker 2: favorite new words, which is like she's just trying to
Speaker 2: hide her stuff from people?
Speaker 1: Is it pain pills? Like did she have a back surgery?
Speaker 1: And that we see this all the time. Why wouldn't
Speaker 1: she say I got addicted. She didn't have to say
Speaker 1: oxy cotone. She could say pain pills. She didn't have
Speaker 1: to say xanax, she could say a benzo.
Speaker 2: Right, because she's full of it, That's why. Because full
Speaker 2: of that, and she wants to blame. She wants to
Speaker 2: she wants anyone other than Karen Huger to be at
Speaker 2: fault for why she does what she does. But let
Speaker 2: me be really clear about something. Karen Huger had an
Speaker 2: alcohol addiction twenty years ago.
Speaker 3: Right, she was.
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about people, They will always tell on
Speaker 2: themselves if you know what to listen for. She said,
Speaker 2: twenty years ago, Raven and her son Brandon and Ray
Speaker 2: were so concerned that she was an alcoholic, and she
Speaker 2: even admitted that the rumors that Ashley shared at the
Speaker 2: reunion were true, that she would be a legal seafood,
Speaker 2: that she would day drink and Ray would have to
Speaker 2: pick her up. Okay, here's the thing, wo, if alcoholism
Speaker 2: was your problem twenty years ago, alcoholism doesn't surprisingly remit
Speaker 2: or go into remission or go away without blood, sweat
Speaker 2: and tears.
Speaker 3: It doesn't.
Speaker 2: And so Karen told on herself in that moment, because
Speaker 2: I was listening. If alcoholism was an issue for you
Speaker 2: twenty years ago, it's certainly an issue for you now.
Speaker 2: You're just not comfortable noting that you want it to
Speaker 2: be due to something a doctor gave you. And I'll
Speaker 2: tie this up in a nice little bow. And the
Speaker 2: reason why is if a doctor gave it to her,
Speaker 2: then Karen Huger isn't responsible if it's drinking, and if
Speaker 2: it's alcoholism, she's the only one responsible to blame.
Speaker 1: And it called to her well.
Speaker 3: She even said this.
Speaker 2: In the interview, she did say to Andy, she said,
Speaker 2: I'm not as comfortable talking about alcohol because that's my decision.
Speaker 2: But a doctor prescribing me this is more comfortable. And
Speaker 2: this is why, because it gives her someone to blame
Speaker 2: shift on. She can blame Shift on the word antidepressant
Speaker 2: because there's enough people who aren't educated to say, oh, well,
Speaker 2: maybe that is a thing.
Speaker 3: I'm here to tell you it's not.
Speaker 2: I've been on antidepressants for I don't know decades, and
Speaker 2: I've never drunk.
Speaker 3: I never drove drunk one time.
Speaker 1: I know. Probably I'd say eighty percent of people in
Speaker 1: my life are on some kind of something, and I don't.
Speaker 1: They don't, I mean, the majority of them don't go
Speaker 1: around drinking and driving, you know.
Speaker 2: Sure, And then you know, listen, there are comorbid you know,
Speaker 2: it's called dual diagnosis where people, and I would argue
Speaker 2: most folks in addiction have some underlying mental health stuff, right,
Speaker 2: whether it's depression, anxiety.
Speaker 1: Right, That's why why starts trying to.
Speaker 2: Okay, you're trying to self medicate, because being human is hard,
Speaker 2: and when you are, when you're experiencing these things and
Speaker 2: you don't have a good treatment plan. People cannot tolerate
Speaker 2: that and then they self medicate. So what dual diagnosis
Speaker 2: says is that we have to focus on the mental
Speaker 2: health stuff that led to all that or underlying it,
Speaker 2: and we have to focus on the addictive part that drinking,
Speaker 2: the drugs, whatever it is.
Speaker 3: So Karen is just trying. She's she's she's doing half steps.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure if you guys are familiar
Speaker 2: with this term, but I talk about the term a
Speaker 2: thirteenth stepper, which is so.
Speaker 3: A thirteenth stepper is.
Speaker 2: Someone who they come into the program, they have not
Speaker 2: worked on themselves one iota, but they're trying to be
Speaker 2: sponsors and mentor people and talk and give this grand
Speaker 2: explanation of what, you know, how great they are. But
Speaker 2: really it's just all bs and that that's Karen. She
Speaker 2: is using young women to mentor as a way to
Speaker 2: go around her own healing because helping others feels good.
Speaker 2: And here's the thing, it appears helping people appears altruistic,
Speaker 2: But Karen's not really helping people because she wants to help.
Speaker 2: She was helping because it lessened her prison sentence, Like
Speaker 2: she wasn't asked to run these meetings. It was a
Speaker 2: part of her conditions to be released early. So it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, Judge Judy had this saying like, don't be
Speaker 2: on my leg and tell me it's raining. Like Karen's
Speaker 2: being on her leg and being like, I'm sober, and
Speaker 2: it's like, but you're not doing a girl, You're just not.
Speaker 1: It was wild when she was like because she had
Speaker 1: been in like a treatment program. So let's just say
Speaker 1: she gets the sentence, or before she gets the sentence,
Speaker 1: she goes into a treatment program, she gets a NOO's job,
Speaker 1: she goes to prison, like all these things happened at
Speaker 1: the same time, and then she goes in there and
Speaker 1: was like and now I'm the leader of the group.
Speaker 1: You've been sober forty five days and now you're leading meetings.
Speaker 1: There's probably people young women in that prison who have
Speaker 1: a lot more sober time than she does, and probably
Speaker 1: we get a lot more programs than she has.
Speaker 3: I guarantee it.
Speaker 2: And can I also give a little bit of Tea
Speaker 2: in terms of like, well it's not Tea, but the
Speaker 2: reason I think she prefers nakay. So there's different like
Speaker 2: in the TOLSTA programs, NA is narcotics synonymous, in AA
Speaker 2: is alcoholics anonymous. Okay, but people who are sober and
Speaker 2: in recovery know that a drug is a drug is
Speaker 2: a drug.
Speaker 3: Okay, that's period.
Speaker 2: But what Karen's trying to do is delineate because of
Speaker 2: her own discomfort with what she was doing. But the
Speaker 2: reason I believe she prefers NA is because typically, depending
Speaker 2: on geographically where you live, NA tends to be younger
Speaker 2: folks who are more suggestible, who are more in need
Speaker 2: of maybe some mentoring, and I think Karen feels like
Speaker 2: a mama hen among younger folks in AA. You have
Speaker 2: a lot of people who know that there's young there
Speaker 2: are young people in AA, but they're also like, well
Speaker 2: they call them like old heads. Yes, yes, yes right
Speaker 2: where they're old timer people who have been sober thirty
Speaker 2: forty years in AA. And the reason why I think
Speaker 2: she doesn't like that it is not only she's just
Speaker 2: uncomfortable with her alcohol use. She also doesn't want people
Speaker 2: who know more than her trying to tell her to
Speaker 2: call her out how she needs to hear. Yeah, younger
Speaker 2: people aren't going to do that. But if you meet
Speaker 2: an old timer in AA, he's going to spot your
Speaker 2: shit immediately, immediately going to call you out on it,
Speaker 2: and you're not gonna like that. So that's also why
Speaker 2: I think that is.
Speaker 1: My husband used to go to a meeting around here
Speaker 1: and everybody was real old, and he loved the phrase
Speaker 1: that whoever has the most abridey, like this person's got
Speaker 1: thirty years, this person's got twenty two years. You know,
Speaker 1: at that time he had won two years. He's a
Speaker 1: The person who had the most bridey was whoever woke
Speaker 1: up earliest that day. And he was like so because
Speaker 1: he was like, because the day's not over, lot, it's
Speaker 1: going to bring It doesn't matter if you're thirty years sober,
Speaker 1: we're doing it today, you know, right right, And it's
Speaker 1: so all the AA talking and my brother in law
Speaker 1: sober too, and my sister is, you know, twelve years
Speaker 1: in alan On and they just do a lot in
Speaker 1: their community. So I get a lot of the phrasing,
Speaker 1: even more so from them from my husband. But every
Speaker 1: so often my husband will will bring out a saying
Speaker 1: about like about like stay in your hulu hou or whatever.
Speaker 1: We're all like, we don't know what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: but it is that it is if you go to
Speaker 1: one of those meetings and somebody who's been in there
Speaker 1: thirty five years sober and they see somebody coming in like, well,
Speaker 1: my wife is so mean and I had to drink
Speaker 1: because she's such a bit and she's making me come here,
Speaker 1: they will not tolerate that you're in the wrong place.
Speaker 1: Yeah right.
Speaker 2: The reason for that is because when it comes to
Speaker 2: the disease of addiction, which is deadly and it wants
Speaker 2: to kill you, there is no room for going back
Speaker 2: to fuck the term fucking around and finding out, there
Speaker 2: is no room for that, Like Carl Radkey on Summer House,
Speaker 2: when you lose someone to addiction, when you understand this
Speaker 2: disease wants to kill you. The whole thing that gets
Speaker 2: people sober and keeps them sober is rigorous honesty and
Speaker 2: full and complete accountability. And what happens in the program
Speaker 2: is they give you a cent. It's called different things,
Speaker 2: but giving a responsible concern is part of what your
Speaker 2: job is to help other people see their blind spots.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Healing is not for the faint of heart, and it's
Speaker 2: not for people who have weak egos. To really heal,
Speaker 2: you have to own your character defects. You have to
Speaker 2: be rigorously honest, and that means you have to do
Speaker 2: that with yourself, and you have to do that with
Speaker 2: other people. Other people cannot hear that. That is a
Speaker 2: huge red flag for.
Speaker 3: They're not ready. They just starn't ready.
Speaker 1: Let's meet a Carl Rakky because I'm not a summer
Speaker 1: house any person. I know everybody. Well, I don't want
Speaker 1: to hear about it. Okay, I don't watch it. I
Speaker 1: don't care, so don't come at me. So, but I
Speaker 1: do know the players. I don't know the game. So
Speaker 1: I know Carl, I know who he is. I know
Speaker 1: he's sober or whatever. Didn't you think it was interesting
Speaker 1: because you were just talking about if you're an alcoholic
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, you're still an alcoholic today. Didn't you
Speaker 1: think it was interesting that Chrissy Tagan posted with Carl
Speaker 1: Radkey saying he was like a mentor to her. Chrissy
Speaker 1: Tagan posted, She's married to a guy who's almost got
Speaker 1: an egot or does have an egot, right, and she
Speaker 1: herself is, you know, very well known and famous and
Speaker 1: written miny cooklicks and all this that Karl Radkey showed
Speaker 1: her that because she had stopped drinking maybe five years ago,
Speaker 1: but decided somewhere along the lines, it's okay, I could
Speaker 1: have a glass of wine with my friends. And then
Speaker 1: that became like is at five o'clock? And then that
Speaker 1: became who cares, it's lunch, and then and I'm not
Speaker 1: doing anything, and then you know, she says, and then
Speaker 1: you slip back into it, which is I think exactly
Speaker 1: what happened to Karen. She probably didn't drink heavily for
Speaker 1: a long time and then was like, well, I'm on
Speaker 1: the show, so it's fine, and then slowly is well,
Speaker 1: you see the people several seasons ago calling her out
Speaker 1: like she called me and she has no idea what
Speaker 1: she said, and you know, and then for them to
Speaker 1: be like, no, she's been drinking like this for years
Speaker 1: and years and years, and this is not her first EUI,
Speaker 1: it's her fourth. It's her fourth alcohol related arrest. Andy,
Speaker 1: you know, well, I will be pat and Dylan said
Speaker 1: last week they think the reason she was and again
Speaker 1: they had not seen the whole thing that they thought
Speaker 1: the reason she was so adamant to not say alcoholic
Speaker 1: and that alcohol calls to her or it doesn't, but
Speaker 1: it was the pills that were the problem. They felt
Speaker 1: it was because she wanted to be able to drink
Speaker 1: on camera again without being judged.
Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I think I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think she would ever do that. But I
Speaker 1: thought that about Lui into.
Speaker 3: Well, that's that's right.
Speaker 2: And I think there's value to that perspective, is that
Speaker 2: she's not she doesn't isn't ready for her life to
Speaker 2: be as different as it needs to.
Speaker 3: Be to be sober.
Speaker 2: So I do I do think there's something to that.
Speaker 3: I really do.
Speaker 2: And you know, I guess she doesn't want to be judged,
Speaker 2: but like it's not about judgment. It's just about like
Speaker 2: being honest because we want Karen to survive and we
Speaker 2: want other people to survive because it is a public
Speaker 2: safety issue to be drinking and driving. But I mean,
Speaker 2: that's an interesting that is an interesting theory. I just
Speaker 2: I just think like denial and minimization. You know, when
Speaker 2: it comes to addiction, there are what's called the motivational
Speaker 2: stages of change and motivation to change. It's not linear,
Speaker 2: it's cyclical, meaning you can be sober like Christy Teagan
Speaker 2: for how many years, and then you can just denial
Speaker 2: and minimization creeps in right, and they call that the
Speaker 2: sleeping tiger in the recovery space is that if you
Speaker 2: sleep on your disease, it's going to come back, and
Speaker 2: it's going to get you. And the only thing, the
Speaker 2: only thing that prevents that is rigorous honesty from yourself
Speaker 2: and from other people, because blind spots can't exist when
Speaker 2: you have people around you giving you feedback about your behaviors.
Speaker 2: But Karen doesn't want that, And so why doesn't she
Speaker 2: want that? I think it's a million reasons. It's denial,
Speaker 2: it's minimization. She's not ready for her life to be different.
Speaker 2: She doesn't want to own her stuff. She wants it
Speaker 2: to be someone else's fault. But most importantly, I do
Speaker 2: think she wants to be back to being the grand dam.
Speaker 2: She wants to pretend this all never happened and go
Speaker 2: back to being on TV. And again that's a red
Speaker 2: flag to me, considering like your priority should be you
Speaker 2: and your her husband, because the one thing that we
Speaker 2: found out from that interview is that Karen has been
Speaker 2: miserable with Ray. Yeah, miserable. She called Mary Payne, she
Speaker 2: called her home a tomb.
Speaker 3: Do you understand?
Speaker 2: She called her home a tomb.
Speaker 1: And then she was like, and Ray and I have decided.
Speaker 1: You know, if after this is all over it like
Speaker 1: I don't want to be with him, like he's okay
Speaker 1: with it, I'm like, go ahead and do it. Why
Speaker 1: are you prolonging this? Just go ahead and live in
Speaker 1: separate parts of the house if you can't afford to
Speaker 1: have two different homes, Like I listen speaking of addiction,
Speaker 1: because I know I don't have you for hours and hours,
Speaker 1: because we could discuss this for hours and hours. Yes,
Speaker 1: speaking of addiction, I do want to talk to you
Speaker 1: about Southern charm because what I find very interesting is
Speaker 1: the craig of it all. Also fully saying to Austin,
Speaker 1: you don't understand what it's like to have an attic brain,
Speaker 1: Like I can't just have one drink now. Meanwhile, while
Speaker 1: he was saying this two seasons ago, over last season,
Speaker 1: he's sitting with the bottle of Don Pierreon next to him,
Speaker 1: open a bottle, not not a glass, just a bottle,
Speaker 1: just from the bottle. But he's saying, you don't understand
Speaker 1: what it's like to be an addict. I can't go
Speaker 1: out all the time and have drinks because I'm an addict.
Speaker 1: I don't know when to stop. Excuse me, chug. So anyway,
Speaker 1: it was crazy, right. He explained he can't go out
Speaker 1: like that anymore because of he has an addictive personality
Speaker 1: this season, Like somebody pointed out, Austin was mad at
Speaker 1: him last season because he wasn't fun, it didn't go out,
Speaker 1: and Austin is mad at him this season because he
Speaker 1: is fun and going out. So but I think what
Speaker 1: Austin is saying is, man, you sat with me on
Speaker 1: the beach and gave me a heartfelt explanation that you're
Speaker 1: an addict, and now this season you're sloppy drunk all
Speaker 1: the time. And I'm not supposed to say anything as
Speaker 1: a friend. I'm not supposed to like, hey, man, are
Speaker 1: you okay? Like what are you doing? So what is
Speaker 1: your thought on that with Craig?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So my thought on that is that Austin
Speaker 2: is a thousand percent correct because he realized that Craig.
Speaker 3: Was manipulating him.
Speaker 2: Yes, because when you excuse me, when you cut someone
Speaker 2: off at the knees with a conversation and sorry, this
Speaker 2: sunlight just like poked through and I'm.
Speaker 3: Like also and I'm dark.
Speaker 1: Oh you guys were I'm watching on video and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm like, wow, didn't the clips just
Speaker 1: happen outside of your window?
Speaker 2: Literally, I podcast in the front of my house and
Speaker 2: we have this huge picture window. So for anyone watching
Speaker 2: the video, it's just like, we'll get dark and like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's it's wacky anyway.
Speaker 3: Sorry, if you're done.
Speaker 1: Really you're pretty though, because it makes those flowers behind
Speaker 1: you look like they're kind of blowing.
Speaker 3: It looks beautiful. Yeah, and I'm just like, okay.
Speaker 2: So I think that Austin was completely right because one
Speaker 2: thing that I said at the beginning of the season,
Speaker 2: I was like, wait a second. If Craig was saying
Speaker 2: last season that he was an addict and an alcoholic
Speaker 2: and now he's just drinking, then that means he's relapsed
Speaker 2: and people need to be.
Speaker 3: Way more concerned.
Speaker 2: That was what my brain said, and so very sweaty,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, so lots of lots of physiological expressions
Speaker 2: of whatever it is that.
Speaker 3: He's doing, which is a concern.
Speaker 2: But I think that going back to what I was saying,
Speaker 2: Austin realized that Craig used that to manipulate him so
Speaker 2: that Craig could win the argument, and Austin didn't have
Speaker 2: a leg to stand right, what.
Speaker 1: Are you going to say with somebody says I'm an addict,
Speaker 1: I can't. Then the conversation's over. You have to be
Speaker 1: like and then he support let me support you.
Speaker 3: Yeah right.
Speaker 2: He weaponized his stuff to manipulate and this season, Austin
Speaker 2: had every right to say, wait, wait, wait a second,
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, now you're not an addict anymore,
Speaker 2: You're just drinking.
Speaker 3: And what am I supposed to believe? Number one? Number two?
Speaker 2: I now realize that you use that because Craig cannot
Speaker 2: The reason why Austin and Craig have what Whitney called
Speaker 2: a circle jerk of acrimony, which I felt was like
Speaker 2: a really interesting choice of words for Whitney.
Speaker 1: Whitney's a poet. Come on now, circle that's beautiful.
Speaker 2: I was like, that is one of the most hilariously
Speaker 2: beautifully descriptive things that I've ever heard in my entire life.
Speaker 2: But the reason they have that is because they cannot
Speaker 2: resolve any conflict, because Craig is always like wanting to
Speaker 2: exit the conflict where he looks good, but there's nothing
Speaker 2: that's really resolved. And Austin, Now, listen, Austin is fully
Speaker 2: a part of this, right, he plays his own role.
Speaker 2: He can be provocative to Craig and all these other things.
Speaker 2: He has his own stuff. But I think in this
Speaker 2: instance he has every right to be concerned, and I
Speaker 2: think the fans should be more concerned. If someone is
Speaker 2: saying they were sober and now they're drunk every night,
Speaker 2: that's a concern for me because that's what we call
Speaker 2: a relapse.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's a relapse. And even like Shep, who has
Speaker 1: had his own problems and god knows I've I've I
Speaker 1: personally have been felt up by chef at a Bravo
Speaker 1: con just handled them. He's just real sloppy.
Speaker 2: However, hold on, Mary Payne, are you are you serious?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, grabbed your.
Speaker 1: Boob, not on purpose, but he's very tall and his
Speaker 1: arm around me, and I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2: Oh, oh okay, Well I still don't love that, but anyway,
Speaker 2: I'll send you some photo evidence, so.
Speaker 3: Please, I would love that's very drunk. Let's yeah, no,
Speaker 3: very very.
Speaker 1: Very gross and drunk, right, and it has been very,
Speaker 1: very gross and drunk and He's done it at ravocn
Speaker 1: four years in a row, did it this year too.
Speaker 1: So even though when he got in trouble for it
Speaker 1: two years ago, he was like, now I'm just drinking
Speaker 1: beer now. As you know, addicts do this. They try
Speaker 1: to say, Okay, I'm only going to drink on the weekends.
Speaker 1: I'm only going to drink beer. I only drink after five.
Speaker 1: My husband's think used to be like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: stop drinking at ten, so at nine to fifty five
Speaker 1: before himself drink this big but you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: like you make it. So that's what we've seen Shef do.
Speaker 1: Shef has never said I'm an alcoholic. I have a
Speaker 1: drinking problem. I need help. He has said I'm trying
Speaker 1: to better myself and get my drinking under control. Smart
Speaker 1: because he can still drink if he wants. Craig has
Speaker 1: said I'm an addict. I am an addict. He said
Speaker 1: those words. He did what So what does he think
Speaker 1: is going to happen when he's drinking on camera? Same
Speaker 1: as Luann? Right, what do you think is gonna happen?
Speaker 1: We're going to fucking call you out for it?
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: But the thing is that Craig.
Speaker 2: The one thing that he's really bad at is being
Speaker 2: impeccable with his word. Like Craig does not know how
Speaker 2: to be truthful, I really truly believe, and you know, Kate, yes,
Speaker 2: right right, So he he is not impeccable with his word,
Speaker 2: meaning like he just throws whatever out there, and then
Speaker 2: he gets angry that people hold him accountable for the
Speaker 2: words that he says, because that's the world he lives in.
Speaker 2: That whatever he wants to say is Lucy Goosey, that
Speaker 2: whatever he feels.
Speaker 3: In the moment.
Speaker 2: You know, he's very much like Kyle Cook from Summer House,
Speaker 2: which I know you don't watch, and I'm not going
Speaker 2: to judge you for that, but there. You know, there's
Speaker 2: this term in recovery which I talk a lot about
Speaker 2: in my podcast, which is called king baby.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever heard that term, Mary
Speaker 3: Pain king baby. So king baby is someone who.
Speaker 2: Is struggling with addiction and they believe that every the
Speaker 2: word world should bend to their will and everything should
Speaker 2: go their way and it's all about them. And you know,
Speaker 2: Craig and Kyle Cooke to me are king babies in
Speaker 2: that like just because you have big feelings, doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that gives you the right to hurt other people or
Speaker 2: wound other people, or take it out on other people,
Speaker 2: like they are responsible for how they feel. It's not
Speaker 2: Amanda Batula's fault, Kyle's wife, it's not Austin's fault.
Speaker 3: It's Craig. It's him. He needs to focus on that Jack.
Speaker 1: This is a lot like Jack's too. Everything is everybody
Speaker 1: else's fault, right.
Speaker 3: That's that's exactly right.
Speaker 2: And with Craig, I think he was using Page and
Speaker 2: he uses his other girlfriends to keep him sober and
Speaker 2: to keep him in check, and then as soon as
Speaker 2: that check system goes away, then he's unhinged and he
Speaker 2: doesn't want to be accountable for that.
Speaker 3: Well, that's up to him, right, like he can't.
Speaker 2: You know, he used Page I think as like bowling
Speaker 2: bumper guards, so he didn't keep throwing it.
Speaker 1: But didn't he act so terrible at Colin Amanda's wedding
Speaker 1: he got kicked out.
Speaker 2: He did, Yes, he absolutely did. So I'm grateful for
Speaker 2: her that she kind of figured out.
Speaker 3: She didn't.
Speaker 2: I don't think she wanted to be his his bumper
Speaker 2: guards anymore. We don't want to have to teach our partners,
Speaker 2: like how to be an adult.
Speaker 3: That's not that's not a sexy thing. No, that's not
Speaker 3: a fun thing. That's not something that we're like, yes,
Speaker 3: let's do it.
Speaker 2: I want to teach my partner how to be a man.
Speaker 3: No, just be one.
Speaker 1: No, just you can't fix anybody, you guys, Like, that's
Speaker 1: the lesson, like that the people, the people are who
Speaker 1: they are. My husband is the same person that he
Speaker 1: was when I Mary met him when I was in
Speaker 1: my twenties. He's the same guy. He's sober now, but
Speaker 1: he's the same guy, you know what I mean, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't fix him. He had to fix himself, so
Speaker 1: I god knows, I really gave it a good try.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, Mary pain.
Speaker 2: They say that addiction is a family disease and when
Speaker 2: we grow up, you know, I grew up with addiction
Speaker 2: in my family.
Speaker 3: We are sometimes bred to.
Speaker 1: Be that's okay, you got something your.
Speaker 3: Throat, yeah, and I don't have water.
Speaker 2: We are sometimes bread to be depending on how we
Speaker 2: grew up to be codependent. You know, Listen, I loved
Speaker 2: to pick terrible men and try to convince them to
Speaker 2: be better for me. That was exclusively in fact, what
Speaker 2: I used to do. So there's no shame in that game.
Speaker 2: And that's why I listen. That's why I love allan
Speaker 2: On because I think, you know, for an ellen On
Speaker 2: for folks who don't know, is for people who love
Speaker 2: someone with an addiction that they don't have an addiction.
Speaker 3: Because truly you do.
Speaker 2: When you're with someone, you have to learn how to
Speaker 2: not make them your emotional thermostat right, because it's so
Speaker 2: easy to have that happen. And so you know, everyone
Speaker 2: has work to do, so, you know, congratulations to you
Speaker 2: all for doing the work.
Speaker 1: Congratulations to Page for realizing this is not my life.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this with this man.
Speaker 3: That's right God, but it is God.
Speaker 1: We have so we could literally do a twelve hour
Speaker 1: series on attics on Bravo.
Speaker 2: We should, maybe we should.
Speaker 1: We didn't get to talk about Beverly Hills speaking to addicts,
Speaker 1: but that's okay because you know, as the Super Bowl
Speaker 1: messed up my TLC schedule, it also messed up our
Speaker 1: Bravo schedule, and the Olympics is also put in a
Speaker 1: cramp in our Bravo. But luckily we had enough to
Speaker 1: talk about with Craig Karen and who else did we
Speaker 1: start with? Jill Zarn?
Speaker 2: Jill Zaren, Jill Yarn.
Speaker 1: Yeah, God bless Jill Zarin. Come on, lady. Anyway, we
Speaker 1: didn't solve Nancy Guthrie either. We're recording this on Wednesday.
Speaker 1: I've been on the case for eleven days. I'm actively
Speaker 1: trying to solve it. I told you I didn't want
Speaker 1: to go to bed last night for I fear it
Speaker 1: would get solved while I was asleep. But I woke
Speaker 1: up on a Wednesday it wasn't solved. Maybe Thursday's our day. Everybody,
Speaker 1: Let's listen to Nancy home. Guys, everybody be listening. Our
Speaker 1: friend Kate Casey has been having an FBI guy on
Speaker 1: been talking about he now does private security and he's
Speaker 1: talking a lot about in his uh time working with
Speaker 1: kidnappers and stuff with the FBI. So that's been very interesting.
Speaker 1: Of course, you can always listen to Emily D. Baker
Speaker 1: and then you could also just scroll through Instagram Brian
Speaker 1: Inton E n t I n He's a guy that's
Speaker 1: on the scene. These are places you can follow ants
Speaker 1: to go through if you're also trying to solve it
Speaker 1: like we are. Please Lord by Thursday, let the read
Speaker 1: an answer.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I mean, these poor people are just you know,
Speaker 2: and listen, we don't have time for this. But there's
Speaker 2: a whole psychology to the kidnappers and why they do
Speaker 2: what they do and some of the psychological profiles.
Speaker 1: Okay, once once it is solved, and the and the
Speaker 1: Netflix documentaries and the works, once it is solved and
Speaker 1: they get who it is and they figure out why
Speaker 1: and if she's alive and if not, and when all
Speaker 1: that kind of starts to come out, come back, so
Speaker 1: we can discuss that.
Speaker 3: One thousand percent. Yes, okay, And.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be on your show on your show Net.
Speaker 1: It's gonna air next week.
Speaker 2: Yep, we'll air next Tuesday. Okay, great, So check out
Speaker 2: Your bish Therapist. Podcast is free and available everywhere. I
Speaker 2: will have Mary Payin back on my pod which will
Speaker 2: air on Tuesday. And I'm very excited and hope maybe
Speaker 2: by then we'll have more information and we can talk
Speaker 2: a little bit more about it.
Speaker 3: So very excited. Yeah, very excited.
Speaker 1: Everybody follow Melissa. She has great, great, great insights. You
Speaker 1: can follow her on Instagram at my Your bish Therapist.
Speaker 1: Your therapis b s H instead of bitch your bish therapist,
Speaker 1: and please follow me at Pink Shad Pod. Okay, bye
Speaker 1: bye
Speaker 2: P