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Speaker 1: But you're still not hearing us.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm hearing you because I plugged my I plugged

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my headphones.

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Speaker 3: Yet doctors, I've actually found historically that helps a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I've done that several times.

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Speaker 3: One of those little tech tricks that doctors don't want

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you to know about.

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Speaker 4: It ask not what your country can do for you,

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as what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 1: Mister Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

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Speaker 2: It's the Recorchet podcast with Charles Yukook and Stephen Hayward.

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I'm James Lonnox and the day we talked to Ellen

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Fantini about the European Conservative and yes there is more

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than one, so let's ever selves a podcast.

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Speaker 5: Any of this new information implicates former President Obama in

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criminal behavior, we have referred and will continue to refer

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all of these documents to the Department of Justice and

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the FBI to investigate the criminal implications of this.

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Speaker 1: Would an untalented man be able to compose the following

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satirical witticism cook yourself.

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Speaker 2: Welcome everybody, It's the Ricochet of podcast with a very

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satisfying number of seven hundred and fifty. You too can

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join us at ricochet dot com. To be part of

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the most stimulating conversation in community on the web. And

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I know that's a big claim, bold claim, but Dear,

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if we couldn't back it up, we wouldn't make it.

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I'm James Lilacs and sunny, beautiful Clement, Minnie Apolis, where

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I just walked the dog by the creek in the woods,

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glorious day summer. And Stephen Hayward, I believe is in

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California or Iceland, who knows. And Charles C. W. Cook

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is probably in Florida, where I imagine it's torporous and

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one can barely walk in the humidity without feeling as

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if though you're jogging at the bottom of a pool. Gentlemen,

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how are you?

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Speaker 1: I am good, We're both good.

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Speaker 6: I think I played.

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Speaker 3: Two hours of tennis this morning in this weather, so

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I hope you're impressed.

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Speaker 2: I am impressed. My wife plays tennis as well. She's extraordinary.

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What are you are you? A four, A five, A

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four point five, a three point eight.

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Speaker 3: Now, well, my wife's a really good tennis player. I

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didn't have a ranking, but I am six foot three,

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so I can still win most of the time because

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I'm just stronger than that. She's the one with all

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of the numbers and lines and all of this. I'm

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just I'm just trying to make sure that I don't

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sit in my chair all day and do nothing.

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Speaker 2: That's my aim. Yes, I know, I'm the same way.

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I am keen to sit in my chair all day

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and do something. But now that I am retired, I

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have to get out of the house. I have to

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do things, and I'm enjoying it quite an awful lot

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as a matter of fact. But then again, that gives

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me time to bruise the web and the Twitter and

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the X and all the rest of it and see

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what's up and going. And it appears we have a kerfuffle.

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We have a concretent that was once known as Russiagate

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that is back in the headlines. Some people are saying,

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this is nothing new, We've been over this before. It's ridiculous.

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There's no trees in here, there's nothing that ties it

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to well Bama, etcetera, etcetera. But as I understand that

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there were documents that were under lock and key for

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an awful long time that were finally prized out of

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those who were holding them, and that they've been going

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over them with the proverbial no, I'm sorry, not the axiomatic,

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the cliched fine tooth comb, and things have been revealed.

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What do you, gentlemen, take away from Director of National

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Intelligence Tulsea Gabbert's presser on this particular situation.

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Speaker 1: Well, I guess I'll go first. I think if we

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take it at face value, and of course we heard

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Gabbart's presentation of it, it does look like we are

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seeing some new things suggesting that a lot of the

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senior intelligence people under the last weeks of Obama knew

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that all of these claims were false or extremely weak

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at best, and that Obama knew about it, and Obama

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was up to his neck. And I guess I'll call

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it a conspiracy. I try to avoid that because I've

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run out of tinfoil, but involved in a conspiracy to

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hobble cast out on the legitimacy of the election and

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hobble President Trump's first term, which they had some success, right,

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I think for the show.

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Speaker 2: And I don't like to use the termspiracy. I think

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satanic cabal is a little.

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Speaker 1: Less right, right, Yes, well, I mean I think. And

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then we also heard that the Russian intelligence, through their

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hacking of Democratic Party emails or whatever, claim to have

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known that Hillary Clinton was given to fits of rage

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and was had serious psychological problems, was taking tranquilizers heavily,

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and various other things that may or may not be true.

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I mean, we all, I think when we heard that

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I read that, what ran our minds back to that

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September eleventh, twenty sixteen episode she had where she had

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to be bundled up and carried to a van when

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she was obviously having that. And you had various explanations

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for hours of days after.

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Speaker 2: She dragged like a legless sack of potatoes.

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Speaker 1: Right, but they told her, well, she was dehydrated. It

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was this, there was that, and and you know, we

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never quite got a clear explanation of that. I do

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think that if oh tobably type two diabetes is claimed

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by this supposedly Russian intelligence and so I don't know.

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I do remember reading on Twitter at the time, and

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it's almost ten years ago now that oh, you know,

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I'm a neurologist, and I can tell that she's got

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Parkinson's disease and she's going to be dead in a year.

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And you know, some of the typical claims are people

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run away with themselves? And herry are almost ten years

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later and Hillary's still with us, and so I don't

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think we know the truth of all that, but it

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is an intriguing little tidbit that emerged from all this.

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Speaker 2: I'm less interested in that than the things that we

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learned about the five supposed pieces of evidence that led

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them to conclude that the Russia Gate was ongoing. And

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it was like, well, this one is thinly sourced. We

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can't exactly find where it comes from. It makes a

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vague allusion to somebody with a first name starting with

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TA started her last name is starting with T. It's

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from somebody who was later revealed to be a triple

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agent for Mongolia, and it's from eighteen fourteen. And they said, well,

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I you know, it's got the ring of truth to it.

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So it was throwing in the mix. Charles, are you,

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first of all, are you still interested in this? Do

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you think it matters? Do you think it is a

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germane to today?

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Speaker 6: Well, it depends what you mean.

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Speaker 3: I think that it's a scandal, and the passage of

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time doesn't change that. I thought it was a scandal

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at the time, wasted two years of not just Trump's

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first presidency, but my life, I do regret one thing

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I regret.

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Speaker 6: It's a quick digression.

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Speaker 3: I went at that time on CNN relatively frequently, and

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every time they would bring this up, I would think,

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you know what, just say, doesn't this all sound like

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a bunch of nonsense to you? And then I thought,

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if I say that and I'm wrong, just on the

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off chance that I'm wrong, I will for the rest

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of my life be that guy who did that.

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Speaker 6: So I didn't.

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Speaker 3: I said, well, but I do think it's a scandal.

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I think it's not so much that it doesn't interest me.

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But I think the context within which Tulsy Gabbart had

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said it is just wrong, in that there is not

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going to be a prosecution of Barack Obama. Whatever might

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or should happen to lower level intelligence operatives or Brennan.

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Barack Obama is not going to be prosecuted for this,

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in part thanks to a Supreme Court case called Trump

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versus United States, which has rendered him immune. So I

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don't like that she has told people that this is

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going to happen, because it's not. But insofar as this

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has been used as a vehicle to remind people that

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this was a really bad incident in our history, and

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that the light worker himself was involved in it. I'm

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absolutely happy to revisit it.

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Speaker 2: Especially since we're dealing with an administration that was caught

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off Mike Hart Mike saying that after the election will

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have more flexibility. I mean, I've never understood why that

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wasn't up there in bost letters of body's consciousness, but

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seems to have just pat after the election, I will

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have to do one exactly more flexibility for you to

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do what exactly. No, he's not going to be prosecuted

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in the idea that somehow he's going to be frog

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marched out and changed. But it was interesting that I

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think the Trump administration somebody ginned up an ai image

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of just that. And of course everybody you hair on fire,

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I get it. It's you know, the norm is broken,

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et cetera. But it does sort of force them to

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talk about what that's in reference to. And there seems

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to be a lot of the press doesn't know quite

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what to do about this, because you know, it's it's

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truth y as a man once said that he was,

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you know, probably obviously propriate, et cetera. Et cetera. And

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the particulars really don't matter to them, and they'll come

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out and say things like, well, it's not as if

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we said that Russia changed the election or hacked the election,

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but that is exactly what you guys were saying. So

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this will be red conned and flushed that that's that's

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basically it. And and unfortunately the internet meme nothing ever happens,

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I think will apply to this. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think that there has been a punishment.

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This has been my view for years that this is

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an intrinsically political question because the president's not going to

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be prosecuted for it, and there has been a punishment

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for Barack Obama, which is that he lost his legacy

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thanks to Trump winning in twenty sixteen, and now Trump

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won again.

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Speaker 2: And like the main legacy he's going to have, I believe,

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is going to be an unfathomably ugly public library.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually just finish on this by saying, this

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is the thing that I love about America. Obviously it's

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not perfect and this doesn't always happen, but the thing

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that depresses me in other countries and in my country

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of birth is things go badly, bad decisions are made.

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You get into these periods of torper and then the

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public says okay.

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Speaker 6: But in the US usually.

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Speaker 3: The public doesn't like it and does something about it.

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And we saw this with inflation, for example. We saw

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those terrible moves that Biden made. The public punished Biden

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for that, and yeah, the press will wreckon this and

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they'll try to rewrite it in time. But Barack Obama

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has paid a price for this, and so has the

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Democratic Party. Even if the average person in the street

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isn't up on it or thinking about it day to day,

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they didn't actually get away with it. And I think

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that's good.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, after our guests, I want to talk

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to you, Charles, when you mentioned that the English British

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reaction is different. There has been a change seemingly in

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the atmosphere after the introduction of migrants into Epping and

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the displacement of hotel people at Canary Wharf to house

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and boat people, and there seems to be a bit

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of a shift. Whether it results in anything, we'll discuss

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after we talk to our guests, and the guests they're

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not going to lie to you. They aren't and you

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may be tired of people lying to you, aren't you?

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Are you being lied to? Well? You know they tell

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you to defer paying your taxes by saving in a

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four oh one K or an IRA because you'll retire

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in a lower tax bracket. But if that's true, why

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are so many retirees and the highest tax bracket of

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their lives. Look, it's time to get to the truth

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to check out. I did. I was curious about it.

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And you know, a free report right to your door.

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and get your free report. That's bank on Yourself dot

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com slash ricochet. Did I say bank on yourself dot

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com slash ricochet. I believe I did. And we thank

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bank on Yourself for sponsoring this the Ricochet Podcast. And

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now we welcome Ellen Fantiney, deputy editor of the European Conservative.

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And there's got to be at least three or four

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of those there in continent, so she probably knows them

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all intimately and can tell us, you know, their full story.

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But welcome. I'm gonna throw this to Stephen because I

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know he's got something query he wish used to put

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you in.

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Speaker 1: Well, right, I'll be high Ellen, great to see you.

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You and your other half, Mario Fantini, or two of

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my favorite Europeans, even though you're Americans. But Mario can

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almost fake being a European with a name like Mario Fantini. Right, anyway,

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I mean here's I mean, we have listeners here. No

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one can see the magazine I've got. I've got them

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stacked up here on my desk. And what I tell

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people about it is so, first of all, I'll try

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to describe it. It's printed on thick stock, it's perfect bound,

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as we say in the magazine Trade, and it's got

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lots of great art work in it. And so I say,

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it's if you want to try think about a conceptually

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A describe it as a cross between Chronicles magazine and

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Architectural Digest.

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Speaker 2: Right, I mean like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well I'll just share one, you know, a typical

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piece of art that's always very topical with James and Charles.

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Here's what they call the magazine trade a double truck.

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It's a two full page piece of artwork. And this

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is a rawing of Trump's Southern Border Wall. Now you

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really know it's a conservative magazine when they're highlighting artwork

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in praise of Trump's a.

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Speaker 2: Southern border wall, practically a fold up Playboy fold out

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for the.

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Speaker 1: For the Maga Trade. And then I don't know, I mean,

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so I don't want to go on too long, Ellen,

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and praise your magazine because I want to ask you

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how it started and a few things about it. But

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for example, you one issue, two or three issues back

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had several features recalling the glory days of the Habsburgs

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and interviewing the latest heirs of the Habsburg dynasty. That's

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a real conservative magazine, right, Or you know articles saying,

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you know, we ought to give Franco a second look

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and realize he's not the boogeyman that we've been told

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for years. What latest issue has a couple of features actually,

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like I think five features on the legacy of Jean

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Marie Lapinn, who remains you know, a boogeyman for everybody

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and enlightened opinion.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly right.

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Speaker 1: So tell us a bit about I mean, I don't know,

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give us your sort of thumbnail sketch of what you

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guys are about out and not about I mean, I'd

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like to say you don't have dense articles on marginal

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tax rates. You're about culture and beauty and philosophy, and

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you know some of the populist currents going on in Europe.

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You guys are all over. But tell us how the

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magazine got started and what you guys try to do

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with it.

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Speaker 5: Sure, So, yes, we've been in Europe for I know

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Mario has been there for about twenty years. I've been

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close to fifteen. And we used to joke when Mario

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would say, I'm Mario Fantini from the European Conservative, and

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they'd say, oh, so you're the Conservative, the European Conservative.

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That's changed quite a lot, and we can talk a

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little bit about that, but certainly the political landscape has changed.

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So the magazine had its early beginnings as a newsletter

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from the proceedings of the Vandenberg Meeting, and the Vandenberg

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Meeting still meets to this day. I think it's been

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seventeen or eighteen years. The Center for European Renewal brought

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together intellectuals and thinkers to try to look at the

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philosophical I would say, foundations of conservatism in Europe, what

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is there to conserve, etc. So started as a newsletter

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and then Mario, let's say, was discontent with his day

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job and said, hey, do you mind if I try

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to make this into a real magazine. They said, sure,

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that's fine. He did that for many years. Then we

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got some foundation help. Actually an American Foundation gave us

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some money to start a small website. Meanwhile, we were

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producing this magazine on our own and sending it out

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as a PDF, or printing a few copies and handing

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them out like samizdat, you know, at various conferences. But

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the PDFs really started getting shared, I suppose went viral

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a bit. People really loved these magazines, and eventually we

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got a foundation funding to really properly professionalize to publish

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the magazine Steve that you have in your hands, and

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we also started a website, We started a news program,

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we opened an office in Brussels. We have reporters all

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around Europe doing daily news, commentary, analysis. But the baby

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of the project, the Fantini baby, is definitely the magazine

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and its aim is to I would say, understand what

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is European conservatism, And I say that but also say

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it's not a monolith. So really it's European conservatisms because

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of course there are conservative or right wing traditions across

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Europe that are really different from one another, and they

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have histories that are very different. And of course even

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today the European right is not a monolith. There are

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issues that one country deals with that another country perhaps

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has dodged for now and so on. So the magazine

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attempts to, through beauty and art and culture and philosophy

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and book reviews, tries to remind us, of course, what

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we mean when we say we want to save the West.

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What is the West? You can't simply talk about taxes

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and financial policy if what you're trying to save is

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our patrimony. So that's part of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I know the magazine. Well, first of all,

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I should mention that whenever I'm going somewhere in Europe,

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I will email Mario and say, who do you know

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in Oslo, Dublin, or you know some small town in Spain.

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And he always tells me five people that he knows

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right and tells me all about them. And so you

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guys seem to be in touch with everybody everywhere. And

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I know that you've been on newsstands. I think you're

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on the Smith Consortium of newstands, except when they kicked

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you off temporarily because of some cartoon.

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Speaker 5: Right, Yes, that was the best thing that happened to

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our to our sales is when we got we got

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sort of canceled by W. H. Smith, which is basically

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the Barnes and Noble of the UK and a fairly

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well known playwright went into a W. H. Smith and

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let's say he and his husband are not the types

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who would normally gravitate towards something called the European Conservative. Well,

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they flipped through it and found a cartoon. The cartoon fantastic. Uh.

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Mom asks a little boy wearing a backpack, what did

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you learn at school today? And the little boy vomits

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a rainbow? So, I mean, you know, not particularly so edgy.

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But they complained to W. H. Smith said, how can

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this rubbish be sold? You know? Meanwhile, I'd love to

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know what was right next to it and behind it

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that was probably actual rubbish. Wh Smith panicked told all

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of its retailers to to yank that issue from the shelves.

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We of course seize the opportunity because there's no such

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thing as bad press, and people were very interested and

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we got lots of new readers.

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Speaker 2: To W. H.

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Speaker 5: Smith's credit, they didn't ban us from their stores, and

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they still stalk us, and in fact, they'd just been

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sold to something with a similar name that's not wh Smith.

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And they continue to stalk us, and we are stocked

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across the United States of America in Barnes and Noble.

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Interesting little factoid is that half of our readers kind

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of across all platforms, so website, magazine sales and subscriptions,

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our social media followers are in the US. And I

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think it's because you kind of alluded to this. Americans

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do want to know what's going on in Europe and

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they want to understand what European conservatism is. They also

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want help, I think, sometimes navigating the players. Who are

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the good guys who are the bad guys? You know,

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not that we have a list of like who the

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bad guys are, but I think because there's such an

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import export of bad ideas between Europe and America, a

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lot of Americans want to know what's what's happening in

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Europe and the European conservative does that.

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Speaker 1: Well, one one more question for me and I'll turn

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you over to Charlie and James. I mean, one of

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the things I like about it is exposes me to

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a lot of European writers I've never heard of before.

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I mean, a few I'm familiar with, and some have

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come to really treasure. And so I'll just mention one

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for one particular thing he does for you regularly, and

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it's Sebastian Morello, who I think what lives in some

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state up on the isle of Sky, I think. But

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he in addition to features, he writes a must read

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column in every issue about whiskey, which of course is

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something I'm fond of. But anyway, I don't have a question.

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I just want to say that it must be fun

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to have the stable of people all over the place.

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Who are you know? So it's so different from most

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American publications, I'll put.

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Speaker 2: It that way.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean that's thank you for noticing that.

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I mean, one of our missions is to bring to

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English writers who don't write in English. Of course, Sebastian

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writes in English, but we always say, why is it

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that the next great thinker has to be an Anglophone?

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In other words, they're really interesting people writing in Portuguese

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and in Spanish and in German. And if English language

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is the barrier to entry, well then we tear down

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that barrier. We translate their work, and we think that

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that's really important because while of course, as an American

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I do think that there is some superiority to some

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of the Anglophone world's ways of viewing things. It's certainly

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not the only way, and I think we can learn

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a lot from continental European thinking and thinkers.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Charles Cook, I wonder is it a challenge dealing

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with Europe which is a very big place with lots

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of different countries in it and different traditions leave aside, languages.

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Britain is different in France, which is different than Italy,

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which is different than Germany. How do you coalesce all

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of that or do you treat them as discrete entities

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under the European banner?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? I mean, I suppose we treat these countries and

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even let's say the threads of conservatism within these countries

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as as separate in the sense that there is no monolith.

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And I think although more and more, every country in Europe,

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and even countries who used to be in Europe, suffer

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from a lot of the same problems. I mean, it's

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quite easy these days to say the word migration and

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you have a chorus. Now, how countries or right wing

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leaders or thinkers approach these topics may be different, but

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the similarity of the problems is certainly is certainly obvious.

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But yeah, so to answer your question. I think that's

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the beauty of Europe rather than the EU, which likes

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to treat discrete, sovereign European countries as one big blob

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or block. So, yes, we love Europe, We're not so

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crazy about the EU.

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Speaker 3: My second question is you mentioned that a good number

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of your readers are in the US, and in a

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sense you are translating for them. What is the biggest

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misconception Americans have. I asked this because I increasingly meet

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people on the right in the United States who seem

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genuinely to believe that, say, Britain is now a Muslim country.

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There are problems with Muslim immigration into Britain, especially around

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free speech.

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Speaker 6: We've seen the issues with the gangs in the North.

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Speaker 3: I'm certainly not downplaying it, but as somebody who's Froming,

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then it goes back there relatively often. Yes, London is

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more Muslim than it was twenty years ago, but if

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you go almost anywhere else, certainly where I'm from in

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rural England, that's not the issue. Is it that or

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is it something else? What is the biggest thing? People

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don't know will get wrong?

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Speaker 5: So what are the biggest things that Americans tend to

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get wrong about Europe. I would think that a lot

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of Americans don't understand the patriotism that Europeans feel. And

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perhaps it's because I'm not sure any country, except maybe

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maybe my father's country of Denmark, very few countries do

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patriotism with flags the way that Americans do and call

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themselves patriots. I mean, it's remarkable in fact that this

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new both political European political party and grouping in the

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European Parliament, the Patriots for Europe Right. Saying the word

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patriots is unusual and fairly new, and I think a

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lot of Americans don't understand and that Europeans love their countries.

477
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,000
They love their countries the way that Americans love their countries,

478
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,880
and so I think part of what we can do

479
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,039
is help to show why and examples of that.

480
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the people love their country, but they're not

481
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,559
so sure that their leaders do. Now, just to tell

482
00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:22,400
you where I'm coming from here, I recently spend four

483
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,480
days in a verbo in the Adriatic in Italy, so

484
00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:28,920
I'm an expert on Italian politics. So that's where I'm

485
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,759
coming from. And I go to England at least once

486
00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:34,119
a year, and I am keenly interested and concerned about

487
00:27:34,319 --> 00:27:36,599
the country and its future. But when you say that

488
00:27:36,599 --> 00:27:39,400
the people are patriotic, I believe that. I mean, you

489
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,400
talk to a Britain about their scepter dial but they

490
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,200
don't feel as if the leadership does. They feel that

491
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,880
the leadership is constantly apologizing for the country, apologizing for Europe,

492
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,000
apologizing for the entirety of Western civilization with its dreadful

493
00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:56,279
history of colonialism. And they feel, to varying degrees that

494
00:27:56,319 --> 00:28:00,799
there's an intentional program to dilute the national identity with

495
00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:03,480
people from other places because A it's humane. B we

496
00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:05,119
owe it to them, and see, you get a better

497
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,000
society the more diverse it is. And they feel as

498
00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:13,240
if they are actually being worked against by their leadership.

499
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,359
That's what I get from an awful lot of people

500
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,119
on Twitter in various countries. Is that true. I'm sure

501
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,640
it's true to varying degrees in Europe. But which countries

502
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,799
feel that the least and which countries feel that the more.

503
00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:28,160
In other words, which countries say, yes, we are patriotic

504
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,559
and our leaders are patriotic, in which country says we

505
00:28:31,759 --> 00:28:35,519
are We desperately love le France. But the Macron is

506
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,200
a producer of our of.

507
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 5: Our heritage, right right. So yes, I think I think

508
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:51,400
the average person in any European country, with few exceptions,

509
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,759
and I'll say what those exceptions are, agrees with the

510
00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:59,359
premise that they love their country and their leaders are

511
00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:02,480
actively trying to destroy that country.

512
00:29:02,559 --> 00:29:02,759
Speaker 2: You know.

513
00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:08,319
Speaker 5: It's sort of the European equivalent of the NPR ification

514
00:29:09,079 --> 00:29:13,039
of patriotism, which is that it's you know, it's mocked,

515
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:18,319
it's you know, kind of ignorant. And so I mean

516
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,160
that that that sort of elite disdain for a basic

517
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,039
love of one's country is alive and well in Europe,

518
00:29:28,079 --> 00:29:33,400
of course, you know, they're European. Europeans in various countries

519
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,480
keep on electing people who don't love their countries. I mean,

520
00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:39,720
I think I think that's a fair statement. And when

521
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,240
I say don't love their countries, of course that shorthand

522
00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:49,359
for progressive or socialist or in some places communist policies

523
00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:53,480
that actively destroy the countries. So I mean, you know,

524
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,480
do I think Emanuel Maccron loves France. I have no idea,

525
00:29:57,519 --> 00:30:01,920
but he sure doesn't act like it. So yeah, So

526
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,079
I mean, I think I'll give you an example I

527
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:12,759
live in Austria, and when in twenty sixteen it was

528
00:30:13,519 --> 00:30:18,160
looking like Donald Trump was going to do pretty well,

529
00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:21,039
a lot of my Austrian friends said, how is this possible?

530
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,200
And I said, all right, look at an electoral map

531
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:31,119
of Austria, and you see those green and red spots

532
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,359
in the university towns and in the capitol. Okay, those

533
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,480
are progressives or communists or socialists, and the entire rest

534
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,640
of the country is voting for the Freedom Party pretty

535
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,759
much the same is you know, that's just like America.

536
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,599
So you have the coastal elites let's call them, even

537
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,559
if they don't have coasts in Europe. And so those

538
00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:00,920
are the voters who keep on voting in governments and

539
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,160
leaders that don't have the country's best interests in mind

540
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,160
are the ones who mock the patriots and so on.

541
00:31:09,559 --> 00:31:14,480
So I would say most of Europe, at least European

542
00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:20,119
leadership fits in that category. And then you have places

543
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:26,000
like Hungary. I think Poland's coming back to some sanity.

544
00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:32,559
You see AfD is surging in Germany and Germany is

545
00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:35,920
of course we could have a half hour conversation about Germany,

546
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,880
but I mean Germans, especially young people especially young people,

547
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,880
are saying it cannot be a crime to say that

548
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,480
I'm proud of being German, like it just can't. And

549
00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:54,000
they're expressing frustration with the idea that there is no

550
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,759
end in sight to a prohibition on being proud of

551
00:31:58,039 --> 00:31:58,680
being German.

552
00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:01,799
Speaker 1: So Ellen, let me follow up on that if I can.

553
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,640
It seems to me I think this isn't an exaggeration

554
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,920
or over simplification. That the one of the unifying issues

555
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,640
there as it has been here and now, including Japan

556
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,480
and their elections here in the last few days, which

557
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:17,519
I'll mention in a minute, is the concern about migration,

558
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,920
the erosion of national identity elites who are governing against

559
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,279
the country. I don't know if you follow this. I

560
00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:26,640
don't follow Japanese politics, but I couldn't help but notice

561
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,359
some articles saying, huh, there's a new populist party in

562
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,279
Japan that serves and Lay's election. It's strength coming from

563
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,400
especially from young men frustrated about their lack of opportunities

564
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,279
in a stagnant economy and controversies over migration, which Japan

565
00:32:41,319 --> 00:32:44,119
has very little but has some. And then I look

566
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,400
back at Germany and one of the problems it seems

567
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,200
to me, and this is sort of my political science

568
00:32:48,279 --> 00:32:51,519
geek coming out, is you have these parliamentary systems with

569
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:56,759
multi party elections, and so in Germany right now AfD

570
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,119
is leading in the polls on a hypothetical election, and

571
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,039
the other parties literally won't speak to the AfD members

572
00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:05,599
of the Bundestag, as I understand it, and they've completely

573
00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:09,440
frozen them out of office. And what Mertz, he barely

574
00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:13,039
got the job because what he only got twenty three

575
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,559
twenty four percent of the total vote that was cast.

576
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,319
My point is, if you had a binary system or

577
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,559
first past the post system like we have in America

578
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,480
or in Britain, I think that the populist voice would

579
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,759
be stronger, the elites would have had to change, or

580
00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:32,559
you have actually had a populous government. And instead all

581
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,960
those systems are conspiring to elect someone for who seventy

582
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,240
five percent of the voters wanted somebody else, and eventually

583
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:42,759
that's got to lead to some kind of bad outcome,

584
00:33:42,799 --> 00:33:45,319
it seems to me for the establishment, which means maybe

585
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:47,559
a good outcome for us, but seems to me the

586
00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:52,480
suppression of legitimate voices and the marginalization of legitimate claims

587
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,119
to be included in a government. It's just storing up

588
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,680
all kinds of problems for the elite. And I see

589
00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:02,599
a Trump like storm coming to Europe. Does that make

590
00:34:02,599 --> 00:34:03,640
sense to you?

591
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 5: It absolutely makes sense to me. I mean, certainly the

592
00:34:09,599 --> 00:34:13,119
American style law fair that we saw against Trump is

593
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:16,599
alive and well in Europe. I mean, if you look

594
00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:20,880
at Marine le penn and rossamblamant Nationale or the National

595
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,840
Rally in France. Not only was she convicted and sentenced

596
00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:30,679
to what I think anyone would say is a completely

597
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:39,039
bogus charge, but then they they forbid her from running

598
00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:44,400
for political office for five years and that prohibition cannot

599
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:50,559
be stayed pending appeal, which is just crazy. And then

600
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,400
you have the normalization of the cordon sanitaire. Right, this

601
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:05,079
this firewall against in France, against the RN in Germany,

602
00:35:05,159 --> 00:35:08,760
obviously against the AfD and Mertz. You know, I mean,

603
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,840
he virtue signaled to the right, he started talking a

604
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,719
little bit tough on migration. He's completely failed there. And

605
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:23,239
I don't think anybody can be considered center right if

606
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,239
they endorse a firewall against the second most popular party

607
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,400
in the country. In Italy, you have law fair against

608
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:39,119
Matteo Salvini, the Deputy Prime Minister. This is ongoing and

609
00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:44,119
you're absolutely right that if the voters weren't disenfranchised in

610
00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:47,320
all of these countries, I think the political landscape would

611
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:48,519
look very, very different.

612
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: I hate to interrupt, but actually interrupting the guest is

613
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,480
on my checklist. I got a checklist for my day.

614
00:35:54,679 --> 00:35:56,800
I'm retired and that means that I got to keep

615
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,320
myself busy. Checklist comes in handy. I'm not even nine

616
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,920
to five anymore, nine to nine. Getting through all of

617
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,079
this stuff though, if you're still employed, you got a

618
00:36:04,079 --> 00:36:05,679
lot of stuff going in your life. Getting through it

619
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:08,559
all it could be hard. But today's sponsors want you

620
00:36:08,639 --> 00:36:12,840
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621
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,239
The matter with me today? Three to one. Hey, I

622
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,039
hate to interrupt here, but I'm going to. As a

623
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:19,519
matter of fact, I've got on my list of things

624
00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:21,440
to do and I just checked it off. You probably

625
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,760
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626
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627
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636
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637
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641
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642
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for sponsoring this the Ricochet Podcast. We'll go back to

660
00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:14,519
something you said at the beginning of the interview. You

661
00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:17,960
mentioned three people. You said that you'd interviewed, the last

662
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,679
remaining Habsburg. Is that correct?

663
00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 5: Yes, Well, so there was an interview I think with

664
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:25,199
carlvon Hobsburg.

665
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, right right. I follow him on Twitter where he

666
00:38:27,559 --> 00:38:32,360
fends off predictable japes about his gin physiognomy, and he

667
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,440
seems a very civilized and interesting person. A lot of

668
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,519
people have a certain sort of nostalgia for the os

669
00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:40,480
the waning days of the Austrian Hungarian Empire and the

670
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,760
stuff on this week area of Vienna and the twilight

671
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,519
of that civilian I get that. I get that. I do.

672
00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:48,199
It's an interesting thing to do. But you also said

673
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,679
that you have an article about another look at Franco

674
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,519
and the penn And while I can't comment on either

675
00:38:54,599 --> 00:38:57,320
article without having read them, I want to know what

676
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:01,960
is exactly what's is it worth the candle to take

677
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,639
these figures about whom the ideas are pretty well baked

678
00:39:05,639 --> 00:39:07,239
and say we need to take another look for these

679
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,760
reasons or does that not run the risk of just

680
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,119
immediately tarring everybody who calls themselves a European conservative with

681
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,360
wanting to go back to discredited ideas, or people that

682
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,880
you know may have had a good idea here and there,

683
00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:24,440
but are not somebody necessarily we want to gather into

684
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,360
our arms and say what can we learn from you?

685
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,800
Is it not best too? Perhaps? I mean, what's the

686
00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:32,360
point of that? I guess as I mean, I know

687
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,519
it doesn't keep you from writing about new people on

688
00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:37,079
the horizon, but I'm just curious the impetus behind those

689
00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:38,079
editorial decisions.

690
00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:43,639
Speaker 5: Sure well, I think I think that it's part of

691
00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:50,079
our exploration of the legacies that have made up what

692
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,599
is modern Europe. And I think one could look at

693
00:39:54,639 --> 00:40:03,159
someone's legacy and explain it, or analyze it, or criticize it. Certainly,

694
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:06,920
the twenty pages that we've devoted to the legacy of

695
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,679
Jean Marie le Penn it's not a twenty page tribute,

696
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:16,199
but rather are the criticisms fair? What else do we

697
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,199
know about him? And frankly, could the French rite exist

698
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,880
the way it does now without what he did then?

699
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:35,000
I mean his his predictions on globalization, migration, this homogenization

700
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,960
of Europe. Those were prescient warnings, even if even if

701
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,480
what he said about other things were in bad taste

702
00:40:46,639 --> 00:40:52,079
or worse. There are certainly arguments that it's worth looking

703
00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:59,920
at his legacy, especially because literally no English language publication

704
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:03,639
and UH took a look at his legacy, except you know,

705
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,199
sort of a passing uh obituary. So I think it's.

706
00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: So if I can jump in briefly, there is you

707
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,239
may have seen it, Ellen, I'll send it to you.

708
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,199
Christopher Caldwell has a long yes piece on Lapan in

709
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,199
the latest Clairemont Review books. The tracks very closely with

710
00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:20,280
with your treatment of him.

711
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,559
Speaker 5: Sorry to interrupt, Yeah, And I mean it's also you know,

712
00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:28,519
we we we joke that that we're we're open to

713
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:36,400
everyone from uh, you know, sort of traditionalists, anarchists, you know,

714
00:41:36,519 --> 00:41:40,199
sort of conservative anarchists, monarchists. I mean, we have the

715
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:46,400
American monarchist Charles Colombe, a Californian, uh, writing about the monarchy.

716
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,519
I mean we we think that these are all interesting,

717
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,519
and we think that our readers are smart enough to

718
00:41:53,599 --> 00:41:56,800
figure out if it's interesting to them. So, you know,

719
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,119
I appreciate the question, but I also think this is

720
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,719
the sort of the fabric. It's weird and uncomfortable sometimes,

721
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,079
but but there's a lot there that people can learn from.

722
00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 2: You mentioned that it will been warning about the homogenization

723
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,679
of Europe, and that's that's something that's that people seem

724
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,880
to go along with shrug their shoulders, you know, the

725
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,280
center right, the social Democrats, they were okay with you

726
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:25,360
EU having a certain amount of control and influence over

727
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,360
their lives because they got open borders where they could

728
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,039
pass without having to get a visa stand they didn't

729
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:32,360
have to bother to change their perfectly good money into

730
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,199
that strange useless script that the other nations had. I mean,

731
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:38,559
you had this settled notion of Europe that a certain

732
00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:41,679
class of people enjoyed, but now they're finding it changed

733
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,880
in ways. I think that's that that that that are

734
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,280
a front to them, And so I wonder if there

735
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,599
was it, if the EU would not be facing the

736
00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:57,440
pressures it had today, if it's simply hadn't decided to

737
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:02,719
embark upon this read this demographic altering project that they

738
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,679
seem to be doing. If they just stopped at regulating

739
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:11,800
the size of bubbles in Swiss cheese, that they'd be fine.

740
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:17,039
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I mean I think I think that's true.

741
00:43:17,079 --> 00:43:20,800
I mean I think I think plenty of people would

742
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:26,280
say that being an economic or trading block, or regulating

743
00:43:26,679 --> 00:43:29,719
you know, sort of like oil and gas, all that

744
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,960
was good. I think there there are some countries who

745
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,000
are very happy about the Euro others that are not

746
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:40,679
at all happy with the Euro. I think the Shengen,

747
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,039
the Shengin treaty that opened the borders. I think a

748
00:43:46,079 --> 00:43:49,480
lot of people, as you said, said oh well, that'll

749
00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:53,800
make it so convenient, but they never thought about, for example,

750
00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:58,760
what happened this week, which is that Pedro Sanchez in

751
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,119
Spain has based said, I think I'm just going to

752
00:44:03,159 --> 00:44:08,679
normalize the status of like a million illegal migrants and

753
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,400
just you know, give them residents, permits and work visas,

754
00:44:12,559 --> 00:44:16,880
and so they would in fact just be able to

755
00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:22,519
do whatever anyone else with illegal status in Europe could do.

756
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,639
So that means borderless crossings, that means going wherever they

757
00:44:26,679 --> 00:44:28,880
want to go. And I'm not sure that the people

758
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,079
who thought Schengen was a good idea because they don't

759
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:35,639
want to have to get visa stamps had this in mind,

760
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,000
and certainly I think that there are a lot of

761
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,559
people who are really regretting it.

762
00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 2: Now.

763
00:44:41,599 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 3: Are you optimistic about Europe? I ask because it seems

764
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,920
possible to me, and I understand this is provocative that

765
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:56,719
Europe will just not fix itself. Twenty years ago, the

766
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:01,199
size of the European economy and the American economy it

767
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,280
was the same, and now the American economy is twice

768
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,000
as big as the European economy. I don't know as

769
00:45:07,079 --> 00:45:10,840
much as you obviously about continental Europe. I know France

770
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,480
pretty well, Italy increasingly, so I know a lot about Britain.

771
00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:16,760
I'm from there, and at the moment Britain is just

772
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,480
not fixing itself. Britain is not making the decisions that

773
00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:22,159
it needs to, and it seems possible to me. I

774
00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:24,760
hope it doesn't happen. It seems possible that Europe will

775
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,199
just decline.

776
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 6: Are you hopeful? Do you worry about that too?

777
00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:35,119
Speaker 5: Well? You know, it's funny whenever Mario and I get

778
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,440
asked this question. You know, Mario gets called doctor Doom

779
00:45:39,039 --> 00:45:44,920
because he would, I think, say the same thing about Europe.

780
00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:47,639
So I guess I'm supposed to be the ray of sunshine.

781
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:53,360
But I'm with you, Charles in the sense that I'm

782
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,960
not seeing them do it right. So I'm seeing a

783
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,679
lot of people try, and I'm seeing uh, you know,

784
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:07,519
these sort of populist movements, populist nationalists, uh, whatever word

785
00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:11,519
that is. I think that they they really want to try.

786
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:17,880
But boy, the march through the institutions, uh well, and

787
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:23,880
truly succeeded in Europe, and and all of the power

788
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:31,159
and the money has gone into initiatives that were actively

789
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:36,760
work against European growth. I mean, Europe can't defend itself.

790
00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:42,559
Euro does Europe doesn't make anything or manufacture anything. So

791
00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:47,960
although I am the ray of sunshine apparently as between

792
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,440
myself and my husband, I am. I am worried, but

793
00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:54,679
I do think that the that the that there is

794
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,599
there are some sparks, and I think I think people

795
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,719
are are pretty well fed fed up. I just worry

796
00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:06,239
that their fed upness is going to get ugly.

797
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's the big thing. You repress until you

798
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,119
get a blowback that you don't like. In Sweden, there

799
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,119
I forget that. The term for it in the Nordic

800
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:17,800
countries is unpronounceable to me, in which there is a

801
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,760
series of intellectual guard rails. Accepted opinion must travel between

802
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,519
these guardrails, and anything outside of that is regarded as

803
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,519
not something that a decent civilized person would say. And

804
00:47:28,559 --> 00:47:30,440
one of those, I think is the idea that that

805
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,440
Swedish identity is somehow all encompassing and protein, which it isn't.

806
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,599
I mean, in America, the great thing what I love

807
00:47:36,599 --> 00:47:39,480
about America is that anybody can come here from wherever

808
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:42,599
and they can become an American, and that even includes.

809
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 4: Charles, because we have a civic identity that is born

810
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,840
in an idea embodied in a constitution, and that does

811
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,320
not depend on blood and soil, and all the rest

812
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,840
of it. That anybody can become an American, but it

813
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,000
is absurd to think that anybody can become a sweet.

814
00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:02,199
Speaker 2: I can't go to France and become a Frenchman, never could,

815
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:06,239
never would. Don't even have the interest in knowing enough

816
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,119
about whine to be able to claim any sort of

817
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,199
frenchness to me. I could move to England, I really could.

818
00:48:12,199 --> 00:48:13,800
There's a place that I would live, but I know

819
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,119
in my heart that I would never be an Englishman.

820
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,280
So it is absurd, however, to be able to you

821
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:23,679
can't say these ideas in modern Europe because it goes

822
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,880
against the whole transnational idea, which then suppresses nationalism, which

823
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,519
then you think, as I always looking at history, erupts

824
00:48:30,519 --> 00:48:34,039
and erupts poorly. But I'm with Charles, I don't see

825
00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:37,440
it erupting. I just see more and more slump shouldered,

826
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,679
sullen reaction to this as the country, just as the

827
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:45,159
countries have a slow, slow, long decline. I don't want

828
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:50,440
that spark but to erupt. But I want something to happen,

829
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:51,679
but I don't think it will.

830
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 5: You know, this is interesting, this question of identity, and

831
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:03,519
let's say, on the British very online. Right, There's been

832
00:49:03,559 --> 00:49:10,119
a whole discussion about being English and in Ireland same thing.

833
00:49:11,039 --> 00:49:16,119
Somebody I read a tweet just today that observed that.

834
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 2: I know what you're going to say. I wrote the tweet,

835
00:49:19,079 --> 00:49:20,360
go ahead, right.

836
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:25,079
Speaker 5: So an Irish person will say to an American who says,

837
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,199
you know, I'm Irish, you're not Irish. But somebody can

838
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,039
arrive twenty minutes ago from Somalia and they're definitely Irish, right,

839
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,760
and you know so? And then there was the whole question.

840
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:40,360
I mean, this is this is the question, you know,

841
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,519
when you do a what now defunct twenty three and

842
00:49:43,679 --> 00:49:48,519
meters genetic test, At what point is somebody going to

843
00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:51,880
have a genetic test that says they're American? Right, Because

844
00:49:52,039 --> 00:49:55,280
it's a civic it's a civic identity as well as

845
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:01,320
you know, sort of being American of whatever. Fill in

846
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:10,760
ethnic identity roots where Swedes are Swedes. But there is

847
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:16,519
a heavy, heavy, heavy push everywhere in Europe to say

848
00:50:17,039 --> 00:50:22,440
that citizenship is national identity, and there's a big push

849
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,239
against it, and I think that's right.

850
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: Ellen Fantini, who is the deputy editor of the European Conservative,

851
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,519
go down to Barnes and Noble, buy several copies, and

852
00:50:31,559 --> 00:50:33,079
you know, you know, with the heft and waight of

853
00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:35,239
Stephen described with a nice stock and the rest of it,

854
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,400
you can probably use it for some good bicep curls

855
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,480
as well. I look forward to looking at the next edition,

856
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:41,840
and Ellen, we hope to have you and or Mario

857
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,760
back in the future to discuss exactly what's changed in Europe.

858
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,039
If anything does, and if nothing has, you can tell

859
00:50:47,119 --> 00:50:49,719
us why. Ellen Fantini, thanks for joining us today.

860
00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.

861
00:50:56,119 --> 00:50:58,159
Speaker 2: The news cycle move so fast that nobody cares about

862
00:50:58,159 --> 00:50:59,639
Stephen Colbert, but it turns out that a lot of

863
00:50:59,639 --> 00:51:03,440
people care about Stephen Colbert before then. Now he's going

864
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:07,800
away someday. Here's your hat. You know, it's going to

865
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,079
take him like eight months to get to the foyer

866
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:13,480
and leave. But he's new, and he's revitalized, and he's refreshed,

867
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,239
and he's all resistance. F you Trump people are saying

868
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,280
that he was canned for political reasons the same week

869
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,000
that South Park just came out and made the hilarious

870
00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:26,559
humiliation because that's what they do. It's a momb on Biden.

871
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,760
You guys think that Colbert was axed because he was

872
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,920
just too resistancy or because maybe he was losing a

873
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:35,760
lot of money in his average age of his viewers

874
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:36,440
of sixty eight.

875
00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:40,519
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's the latter, but I wish it was

876
00:51:40,559 --> 00:51:44,280
the former. I would love for it. David Allison, who's

877
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,400
the owner of sky Dance that's buying Paramount, I would

878
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,519
love for him to come out and say, actually, we're

879
00:51:49,559 --> 00:51:53,559
hitting rid of him because he's too political and he's unfunny.

880
00:51:53,599 --> 00:51:56,079
I mean, South Park at least is funny, right, I

881
00:51:56,079 --> 00:51:59,239
mean those guys are geniuses, and Colbert became a crashing

882
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,880
bore and kill the ratings and it's losing tons of money.

883
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,519
I do think we saw the future though, of late

884
00:52:04,639 --> 00:52:09,199
night left wing talk shows. It's going to be Colbert

885
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,280
joining forces with Hunter Biden on MSNBC to see who

886
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:14,039
can out.

887
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:18,159
Speaker 2: F bomb the other, and Charlie you'll be watching, of course,

888
00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:20,119
you're being a big Hunter Biden fan. I think you

889
00:52:20,199 --> 00:52:23,039
saw his the entirety of his forty seven hour interview

890
00:52:23,079 --> 00:52:23,239
that you.

891
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:24,599
Speaker 6: Say, I did watch the whole thing.

892
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:25,159
Speaker 2: I did.

893
00:52:25,519 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 3: I love you look, it was engaging. That doesn't mean

894
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,840
that he's not crazy. It doesn't mean that the guy

895
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,719
who interviewed him isn't an idiot, but it was engaging.

896
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,039
He asked open questions and then let Hunter Biden speak,

897
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,639
and I found it fascinating.

898
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: Well, it is that fascinating in the same way we

899
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,599
slow down look at car wrecks. So that's the way

900
00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:48,239
I thought of it.

901
00:52:48,599 --> 00:52:52,039
Speaker 3: Sure, on Collbat, it just seems very unlikely to me

902
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,199
that CBS said we had better get rid of Colbert

903
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,800
to please Trump and give one and a half billion

904
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,280
dollars to South Right in the same move. But the

905
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:09,119
problem there was that the show that he inherited is

906
00:53:09,159 --> 00:53:11,559
not supposed to be what he made it. You know,

907
00:53:11,639 --> 00:53:14,039
it's like ice cream is great, right, but it doesn't

908
00:53:14,039 --> 00:53:17,480
make a very good hammer, And these two things they're

909
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,360
not the same. And so many of the criticisms from

910
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,840
the left have said, ah, so you don't think that

911
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,320
they should be able to criticize the president. No, that's

912
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,440
not my view. I think he should be able to

913
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,440
criticize the president. But he is in charge of the

914
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:38,000
late show. That's not that. And yeah, but it comes up. Sure,

915
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,920
but it became this party political broadcast. Of course it

916
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,079
was canceled. Of course, no one wanted to watch it.

917
00:53:44,119 --> 00:53:46,960
Of course, its audience numbers went from eleven million to two.

918
00:53:48,199 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 2: If that McMahon had come out every night and started

919
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,480
making speeches in favor of George McGovern, I think that

920
00:53:53,519 --> 00:53:56,920
would have been seen as inappropriate for the tonight show

921
00:53:57,039 --> 00:53:58,760
and what it was attempting to do. But you know,

922
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,719
the Left sizes every single aspect of the culture and

923
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:03,920
then and then and then accuses the Right of doing

924
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,639
the exact same thing. We would be content, perfectly content

925
00:54:06,679 --> 00:54:09,079
to keep the culture and the politics a little bit separa,

926
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,880
although they'll say the personal is the political, and everything

927
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:16,440
cultural is inherently just a tiresome group of people. And

928
00:54:16,519 --> 00:54:21,199
speaking of which, when you mentioned before, Charles, there's a template,

929
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,239
you know, the the nineteen thirty Germany template in which

930
00:54:24,559 --> 00:54:27,599
everything is put and the getting rid of Colbert is

931
00:54:27,639 --> 00:54:31,480
another step of the fashions regime silencing all dissent. I

932
00:54:31,519 --> 00:54:35,519
saw somebody the other day yesterday, reacting to the executive

933
00:54:35,639 --> 00:54:40,360
order that said, you know what, you can't nod out

934
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,960
from drugs on the sidewalk and die. We're just not

935
00:54:45,159 --> 00:54:49,679
going to do that anymore. Cities, states, municipalities, you got

936
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,039
to get these people off the street and put them

937
00:54:51,039 --> 00:54:53,920
in a treatment And the reaction to this from one

938
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:58,119
left wing Twitter person was, this is eugenics, straight up.

939
00:55:00,119 --> 00:55:02,880
That's serious, that this is out of the Nazi playbook,

940
00:55:03,559 --> 00:55:07,400
rounding up the undesirables and putting them into camps. It

941
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:12,199
is better, apparently, in the name of harm reduction somehow,

942
00:55:12,559 --> 00:55:16,159
to have no go streets in cities where people are

943
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:19,280
dying unless you jab them with some narcan or just

944
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,760
doing a fenifold for a couple of hours until their

945
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:25,559
desperate lives are reduced to finding the next tack. That

946
00:55:25,559 --> 00:55:28,719
that's somehow preferable to what a lot of us have

947
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:32,119
been saying is necessary in the first place, forced institutionalization

948
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:35,960
to give these people an opportunity to live without the drug.

949
00:55:36,079 --> 00:55:39,000
And I'm saying, you can give them endless opportunities, but

950
00:55:39,079 --> 00:55:42,719
the start is getting them off the streets. And I

951
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,159
think it's partially. They won't admit this, but it's partially

952
00:55:45,159 --> 00:55:47,840
because it deprives them of two things. One the people

953
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,719
who are in the homeless industrial complex, who make an

954
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:52,719
awful lot of money. I think you know San Francisco,

955
00:55:53,039 --> 00:55:55,360
Los Angeles, how many hundreds of agencies do they have

956
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,440
dealing with these things? Are afraid of the money going away,

957
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:05,519
but also b it deprives the rhetoricicians of their favorite

958
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,639
examples to use against capitalism and private housing and all

959
00:56:09,679 --> 00:56:11,599
the rest of it. I mean, if the streets were

960
00:56:11,599 --> 00:56:13,800
suddenly clear, there weren't a lot of drug addicts out anymore,

961
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:18,039
and these people were somewhere off there, the arguments against

962
00:56:18,199 --> 00:56:22,880
capitalism and housing would not be as compelling as they

963
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,480
want them to be. Or am I being cynical now?

964
00:56:26,519 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 1: I think? I mean my guess is knowing how much

965
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,960
we've spent here in California on homelessness only to see

966
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,159
it grow. Of course there may be a connection there, right.

967
00:56:35,199 --> 00:56:36,719
The more money there isn't it, the more of it

968
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,119
you're going to get. So it's something like twenty five

969
00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:42,159
thirty billion dollars that state and local government have spent

970
00:56:42,199 --> 00:56:44,400
in California and homelessness. You would have thought they could

971
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,119
have built some homes with that kind of money. Very

972
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:51,360
very few. In any case, let's not be clever about this.

973
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,360
When you put homeless with drug problems and psychological problems

974
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,800
in hotels and cheap housing, they tend to trash the

975
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,599
place because there is no adult supervision. It's got to

976
00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:04,159
be cheaper. It's not a matter of money, essentially, but

977
00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:05,960
it's got to be cheaper to put somebody in some

978
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:09,079
kind of institution. I forget the numbers now, but they

979
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:11,480
go something like this, that we had something like five

980
00:57:11,559 --> 00:57:15,519
hundred thousand people institutionalized in the nineteen fifties when the

981
00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:18,480
population was, you know, about half of what it is now,

982
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,960
and today it's something like fifty thousand. I don't quote

983
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:25,519
those numbers precisely any listeners, but it's that magnitude of

984
00:57:25,639 --> 00:57:28,480
change of our deinstitutionalization, which we did start in the

985
00:57:28,559 --> 00:57:32,480
late fifties. And it is sad, but that's a much

986
00:57:32,519 --> 00:57:35,199
better approach to the problem. And now we can probably

987
00:57:35,239 --> 00:57:38,000
find better institutions than we did back in those days

988
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:39,920
when many of them were pretty dismal places.

989
00:57:40,239 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 2: Right worldA Rovera, if I recall it, correctly made his

990
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,400
bones at the very early age by discussing the bedlam

991
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:47,840
like conditions in these places, Bedlam being, of course, the

992
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,920
term that comes from an institution in Great Britain. So

993
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:51,159
we'll let Charles have the last word.

994
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:57,199
Speaker 3: I just love the response that you mentioned eugenics. This

995
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,280
is because this is the problem with our moment. This

996
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:06,239
is something that I've increasingly noticed that people can't level

997
00:58:06,239 --> 00:58:09,199
a criticism without adding a bit on the end that

998
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,960
just makes them sound completely crazy. So you meet some

999
00:58:13,199 --> 00:58:16,400
law professor from Berkeley or something, and they'll say.

1000
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:19,079
Speaker 6: Tie, wow, wow, I'm very, very worried.

1001
00:58:19,159 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 3: I mean, under the nineteen forty eight administer to procedure

1002
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,800
at Donald Trump was supposed to submit this for review

1003
00:58:25,239 --> 00:58:28,440
through three or four different channels and put it in triplica.

1004
00:58:28,519 --> 00:58:29,519
Speaker 6: But he hasn't done that.

1005
00:58:29,639 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 3: He's skipped forward to section three. And that's why fourteen

1006
00:58:34,039 --> 00:58:37,119
thousand people will die. And you're like, what, sorry, I

1007
00:58:37,159 --> 00:58:41,639
was with you until what right. I was totally interested

1008
00:58:41,679 --> 00:58:43,840
in your argument until you went there.

1009
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,559
Speaker 6: And it's like, so, I mean, I'm with you guys

1010
00:58:46,559 --> 00:58:47,360
on the homeless thing.

1011
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 3: But even if you don't like this executive order, how

1012
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,079
do they get from Well, I don't like this moderate

1013
00:58:52,159 --> 00:58:54,480
change in federal policy affected by the executive branch.

1014
00:58:54,519 --> 00:58:56,039
Speaker 6: Within the statute are eugenics.

1015
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:02,719
Speaker 2: It is it is delightful. Well, it's all been delightful,

1016
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,599
the whole thing. It's been delightful to be sponsored by

1017
00:59:05,639 --> 00:59:07,800
bank On yourself and by Cozy Earth, and we thank them,

1018
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:09,960
and of course you can avail yourself with the products

1019
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,360
to make your life better today and in the foreseeable future.

1020
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:15,719
It would make us happy if you gave a five

1021
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,920
star review on Apple Podcasts. But you know that, you

1022
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:20,400
know how much it would go out in my day,

1023
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,000
and yet you haven't done it yet. And don't think

1024
00:59:22,039 --> 00:59:24,360
I haven't noticed. Oh I'm not mad. I'm not mad.

1025
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:27,880
I'm just And also, I would like to tell you

1026
00:59:28,519 --> 00:59:31,599
if it isn't obvious that ricochet dot com is the

1027
00:59:31,719 --> 00:59:34,400
enterprise in the edifice behind this weekly podcast. And if

1028
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:36,960
we've got seven hundred and fifty under our belt, well

1029
00:59:37,039 --> 00:59:41,880
there's so many, many more, a whole feed of podcasts

1030
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,440
to which you can listen to, including My Diner, which

1031
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,800
has nothing to do with politics and stuff that has

1032
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:48,800
to do with Well, you just have to go and see,

1033
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:50,360
won't you. A lot of names you'll recognize and a

1034
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:52,159
lot of new people that you'll love to meet. It's

1035
00:59:52,159 --> 00:59:56,000
been fun, Stephen Charles, have a great week, and we'll

1036
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,800
see everybody in the comments. Said Ricochet four point zero.

1037
00:59:58,840 --> 00:59:59,280
Bye bye,