WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Geesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:32.719 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:46.240 Good Evening. He was unassuming, sweet and friendly. Saved in 8 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:50.439 church as a teen, He never caused trouble In the navy, 9 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:53.960 they called them Opie. Though he was a big guy, 10 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:58.039 he had a soft, boyish demeanor. The boy next door, 11 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:01.119 said those who work with him and knew him. But 12 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:06.200 John Eric Armstrong had a very dark secret, hidden even 13 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:11.439 from those closest to him. Prowling Detroit's well known pocket 14 00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:16.560 of prostitution on historic Michigan Avenue, this young husband and 15 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:20.760 father picked up unsuspecting women who thought they were simply 16 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:25.760 meeting a john. He seemed innocent, even driving a jeep 17 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.480 with a front plate reading baby Doll, but they soon 18 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:33.760 discovered he could turn on a dime and fly into 19 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:37.640 a rage. Some of his victims survived to tell the 20 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:41.920 tale of their near death encounter, and when police finally 21 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:49.640 elicited the serial killer's confession, details emerged regarding necrophilia. In 22 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:54.840 The Baby Doll serial Killer, The John Eric Armstrong Homicides, 23 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:59.560 journalist B. R. Bates lays out the gripping story of 24 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:04.319 this chameleon of a serial killer through his horrific crimes, 25 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:07.920 with a compassionate look at the life of each one 26 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:11.879 of his victims and the heroic efforts of law enforcement 27 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:16.159 to catch him. The book that were featuring this evening 28 00:02:16.840 --> 00:02:21.400 is The Baby Doll serial Killer, The John Eric Armstrong 29 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:27.000 Homicides with my special guests retire Detroit Police commander and 30 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:34.520 author Jerry Cliff and journalist and author br Baits. Welcome 31 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:37.159 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 32 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:40.159 Br Baits and Jerry Cliff. 33 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:43.560 Thank you for the opportunity. Great to be here. 34 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:45.120 We appreciate the invitation. 35 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:49.479 Thank you so much. And congratulations on the Baby Doll 36 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:50.400 serial Killer. 37 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.639 Thank you. We're excited. 38 00:02:54.680 --> 00:03:01.280 Thanks Now, Jerry, tell us about your involvement in the 39 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:05.560 Detroit Police Department and the Violent Crime Section. Tell us 40 00:03:05.599 --> 00:03:07.879 the year that you were years that you were involved, 41 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:12.000 and tell us a little bit about Detroit Police Department 42 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:15.800 and Detroit in the turn of the century. 43 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:21.560 Well, we were at the point that this case came 44 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.000 about and I got promoted and put in charge of 45 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.919 the Violent Crime Section. Detroit was one of the ten 46 00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:30.919 most violent cities in the nation, usually in competition for 47 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:33.599 a first or second. I think that year we had 48 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:36.479 a homicide rate of about four hundred, which for a 49 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:40.439 city of about at that time seven hundred and fifty 50 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:45.120 to one thousand and two about a million population, we 51 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:49.719 were way up there. The Violent Crime Section was created 52 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:53.639 after a big case prior to this, but basically what 53 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:58.360 it was is it's a multi jurisdictional task force headed 54 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:01.919 by the Detroit Police Department, housed in Detroit Police Headquarters, 55 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:07.400 but it was comprised of Michigan State police representatives. We 56 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:12.919 had Wayne County sheriff's representatives. We had FBI agents assigned 57 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.560 to us and a supervisory FBI agent. We had an 58 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:21.240 IRS agent, we had a State Attorney General investigator working 59 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:21.600 with us. 60 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:23.240 And the idea behind it all was to. 61 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:29.199 Make a borderless investigative entity that could handle any type 62 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:33.279 of a case that came along that the specialized units 63 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:36.920 within the department, like homic side or sex crimes, just 64 00:04:36.959 --> 00:04:41.680 weren't capable of dealing with the selection process for this 65 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:51.879 entire organization was separate from our contractual arrangements for assignment. 66 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.360 We were a unionized police department. To get a transfer 67 00:04:55.439 --> 00:04:58.879 into or out of a unit, you submitted a transfer request, 68 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:03.120 waited your turn based on your seniority. In this case, 69 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:10.199 the chief and the union agreed that we could pick 70 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:14.360 and choose based on productivity and demonstrated talents, so we 71 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:16.600 could go out and we could basically cherry pick the 72 00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:20.079 best detectives in the entire department, which at the time 73 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:23.800 was about five and a half thousand officers. Violent crimes 74 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:29.480 was around one hundred or so people follow those entities involved. 75 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:32.439 We also had prime Analysis unit as part of it, 76 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:37.199 but our job was to be the go to unit 77 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:41.120 for the chief when something came along that the bigger 78 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:43.839 investigative units weren't. 79 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:46.279 Capable of, and usually it ended up being surreal crime. 80 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:51.480 Now b R tell us about Monica Johnson December two, 81 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:57.839 nineteen ninety nine and her boyfriend Cliff and Michigan Avenue. 82 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:04.360 Yeah went to Michigan Avenue the night of December second 83 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:08.120 with her boyfriend Cliff. He drove her there and he 84 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:12.439 parked the car near Michigan and Sharon Street, and she 85 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:14.759 got out of the car and he stayed in the car. 86 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.240 He was going to wait for her. This seemed to 87 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:21.199 have been perhaps a regular occurrence for them. She was 88 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:24.519 walking off to turn some tricks and he was waiting 89 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:28.680 for her in the car. But the thing was, he waited. 90 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:31.920 He fell asleep while he was waiting, and then she 91 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.920 didn't come back, and so it was a few hours 92 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:38.199 later he woke up he realized, okay, I haven't heard 93 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.639 from her, and he went home and then he did 94 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.480 not see her again. After that, she had encountered someone 95 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:51.519 who strangled her and left her at a service drive 96 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:53.560 off I ninety four in Detroit. 97 00:06:54.519 --> 00:06:58.959 Now, tell us a little bit about Monica Johnson. She's 98 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.480 a black female. You say she's about five four eight, 99 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:03.959 one hundred and twenty pounds, maybe, but tell us a 100 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:08.759 little bit about her and a little bit about Michigan Avenue. 101 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.720 Yeah, Monica was born and raised in Detroit. Her family 102 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:14.759 moved around a little bit when she was growing up. 103 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.519 She had siblings, mostly East side of Detroit is where 104 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:22.120 they lived. And then Monica herself was in her thirties 105 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:25.000 and she had four kids. They were all aged ten 106 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:29.639 and under, and we don't know why she was out 107 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:31.879 on the streets. That's a difficult thing about all of this. 108 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:34.160 You know, each one of the females in this story 109 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:38.160 has her own story, and for Monica, you know, a 110 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:41.319 lot of the time with these females, it is drugs 111 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:42.879 that puts them out on the street. They got to 112 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:46.439 pay for drugs. That leads a lot of people into 113 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.560 prostitution and puts them at risk on the streets. But 114 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:52.879 with Monica, it just wasn't clear. It just wasn't clear 115 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:57.199 what took her out there. But Michigan Avenue in Detroit 116 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:02.319 is one of the pockets. It's a very thriving area 117 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:05.240 of prostitution. Even to this day. You can drive and 118 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:08.399 I've actually done this recently a couple of years ago. 119 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:12.040 You can drive down Michigan Avenue in broad daylight, you know, 120 00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:15.160 two o'clock in the afternoon, and you can be you 121 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:18.279 can see females working the street, or you can even 122 00:08:18.319 --> 00:08:22.439 be flagged down by one. So it's crazy. Michigan Avenue 123 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:25.480 seems to always be thriving with prostitution. Another area of 124 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.439 prostitution in Detroit as Woodward Avenue, and then there's the 125 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:32.360 Cast Corridor. So there's different areas around Detroit, but Michigan 126 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:36.720 Avenue is the central focus of the central geographic area 127 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:38.759 of this story. I guess you'd say. 128 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.600 Now you're right. Then a man named Alan was driving 129 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:45.919 home and saw a person lying on the street, and 130 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:49.120 he called nine one one and ems arrived. What do 131 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:53.200 police from the fourth District who arrived around three or 132 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:55.840 four am? What did they find? 133 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:01.480 Yeah, it's crazy. Monica was alive, was lying on the sidewalk, 134 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:04.879 and it was near an alley. The name of this 135 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:08.320 short little street off I ninety four this, I guess 136 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:11.759 the service drive is how it's referred to with spring 137 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:16.080 Wells and just a tiny little like a block or so. 138 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.519 Service driver went there to visit and to take photos 139 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:22.679 of the site where Monica was found. There's an alley 140 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:27.679 there between a couple buildings, and we presume that when 141 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:32.360 Monica encountered her last John, I guess you would say, 142 00:09:32.759 --> 00:09:34.960 they were in the alley and then he left her 143 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:38.639 on the sidewalk. And so, yes, there was someone driving 144 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:41.440 to work in the early hours of the morning and 145 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:44.480 he spotted someone lying on the sidewalk and he wondered, 146 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:46.840 what on earth is going on that looks like a 147 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.559 woman lying on the sidewalk, and so he called nine 148 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:52.320 one one and he waited there for the police and 149 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:57.080 the emergency personnel to arrive, and she was alive. And 150 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:00.600 so they arrived and they loaded Monica into the ambulance 151 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:04.879 and they took her to the hospital. But unfortunately, by 152 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:08.000 the time they got there, she had died. 153 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.720 Now you say, too very sad. But the mother had 154 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:18.759 to identify her daughter at the morgue. 155 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:21.600 Yes, and that's what happened in a lot of these cases. 156 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.000 You know, as a mom, you certainly don't figure you're 157 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:27.840 going to outlive your child. But yes, her mother did 158 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:28.559 have to idea. 159 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:32.200 Now let's talk about Wendy Jordan. 160 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:38.320 Yeah, Wendy Jordan. Okay, So Monica was killed on December second, 161 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.639 and almost a month later, on January, like actually New Year's, 162 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.759 Wendy was out and she also occasionally worked the streets. 163 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:57.480 But Wendy, Wendy is an interesting case because Wendy had sisters, 164 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:00.399 had a family, grew up at a fairy nor normal 165 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.799 seeming family what some people would call normal. I mean, 166 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:07.960 you wonder, okay, really what is normal? But Wendy's parents, 167 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:11.559 her dad had a good job. He supported the family well. 168 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:15.000 Her parents were together. It was a nuclear family. It 169 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:20.159 was a good situation. But after Wendy graduated from high school, 170 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:25.039 she left Michigan and went to New York City for 171 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:27.759 a while and she worked there, and she was kind 172 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.159 of living the high life there a little bit, and 173 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.200 she got probably introduced to the wrong people, it sounds 174 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:36.840 like from what her sister told me, and so she 175 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:40.320 got into a lifestyle that wasn't healthy. And she did 176 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:42.840 come back to Michigan after a short period of time. 177 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:47.519 And so back in Michigan, she really went in and 178 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:51.360 out of sort of a legitimate life and then a 179 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.399 non legitimate life living on the streets. She would have 180 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:58.600 periods where she would be just fine in her life, 181 00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:01.320 she'd be cleaned up and she'd working a regular job, 182 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:03.679 and then there would be times when she would fall 183 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:06.200 back into addiction. And it was a matter of addiction 184 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:08.480 for Wendy, and her family members knew it, and that 185 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:13.039 was very heartbreaking. It was interesting to speak to her sister, Bonnie, 186 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:17.879 because she really voiced what a lot of these family 187 00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:20.759 members feel when they have someone who's living and at 188 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:24.519 risk life like that. You know, you feel helpless, you 189 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.159 feel like you can't do anything about it. And even 190 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.840 when your family member like your sister, comes back around 191 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:33.840 and you know, can I sleep on your couch or 192 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.679 can I stay with you again? You know you're almost 193 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:41.039 I heard this at times, like almost a reluctance, like, okay, 194 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:44.279 are you going to disappoint me again? Yes, of course 195 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:46.639 you can come sleep on the couch, But what am 196 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:48.000 I going to get? Am I going to wake up 197 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:50.399 tomorrow morning and my purse is going to be lifted 198 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:52.519 or something and you're going to be gone? You know, 199 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.279 there's that kind of element in, you know, in having 200 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.559 a family member who's living at risk like that. But 201 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:01.879 one thing that Bonnie told me about Wendy is that 202 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:04.639 she put it like she had an interesting way of 203 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.519 putting it. She said, you know, some people, some family 204 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:10.480 members with somebody who's living out on the street, they 205 00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:12.759 don't want to see him coming. You know, That's how 206 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:14.320 she said it. They don't want to see him coming. 207 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:16.679 It's like, okay, you're going to steal from me again, 208 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:19.480 you know, as I said, or something even worse. But 209 00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.080 she said, with Wendy, we always wanted to see her coming. 210 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:26.399 It didn't matter you know, we were always going to 211 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:30.399 take her back. So that really said a lot to me. 212 00:13:30.519 --> 00:13:33.919 That was very meaningful to hear Bonnie say that. And 213 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:38.080 so Wendy, you know, she would disappear for a while, 214 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:41.399 they wouldn't know where she was. And at the time 215 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:45.919 that she encountered her killer, she had been gone for 216 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:50.399 a little bit and it wasn't unusual and so there 217 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:54.000 really was not anything on their radar until she was 218 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:57.039 identified and they got a call the day after or 219 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.720 that I think it was the day after she was found. 220 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:02.840 So really sad, sad story. 221 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:08.320 You also write of again the information that you garnered 222 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:11.440 from the family. You talk about a harrowing tale when 223 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:13.919 they hadn't heard from her, and then you happened to 224 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:17.000 be or pardon me, you her sister, Bonnie happened to 225 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.440 be at the parents' home. Father's home answered the phone 226 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.440 and the person said, do you have a sister named Wendy. 227 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:26.679 She said why, He says, well, she's here. I know 228 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:29.919 where she's at. And she went over to that house 229 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:33.240 and got her sister, who was skin and bones, and 230 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:33.919 took her home. 231 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.200 Yeah. Yeah, that was one of those times when Wendy 232 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:42.960 would disappear, as Bonnie had said, and so as family 233 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.039 members how Wendy, they were a little bit used to 234 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.200 this this sort of thing unfortunately. 235 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:54.879 Yeah, you talk about that New Year's Eve nineteen ninety nine, 236 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:58.559 they had all the siblings had gotten together for a 237 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.399 few hours on New Year's Eve and that was the 238 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.279 last time they saw Wendy alive. 239 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:10.720 Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, and it was sad. It's interesting 240 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:13.320 because that was New Year's Eve before the year two 241 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.120 thousand and I remember back then, it's like we all 242 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:19.799 were concerned. Y two K was a phrase, you remember that. 243 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.720 It's like everybody was like, what's gonna happen on Y 244 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:26.360 two K? Well, that was, you know, a sad coincidence 245 00:15:26.440 --> 00:15:29.440 that it was the Y two K when Wendy got killed. 246 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:34.840 So tell us about the January second, Dearborn Heights Police 247 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:36.519 Department nine one one call. 248 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.879 Yes, okay, So it's probably between four and four thirty 249 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:45.159 pm when a man was coming home from work. He 250 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.559 had been working at a retail store in Dearborn Heights 251 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:51.120 and Dearborn Heights is on the west side of Metro Detroit. Right, 252 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:55.600 he pulled over where the Rouge River crosses I think 253 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:59.240 Ann Arbor Trail is over there in Dearborn Heights and 254 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:01.919 pulled over. He was driving a GP. He pulled over 255 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:04.000 and he looked over the side of the bridge and 256 00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:06.919 then there were a couple people across the street from 257 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:09.720 where he was located, and a couple doors down there 258 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:12.399 was a young man and his girlfriend and he was 259 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:14.799 about to hop in the car and take his girlfriend home. 260 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:18.440 They were at his place, and so she was visiting 261 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:19.919 and he was going to take her home. And so 262 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:22.159 they did hop in the car and they pulled out 263 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.279 of the driveway and they started going to where the 264 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.639 jeep was parked, and the man ran out and flagged 265 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.159 them down and said, hey, there's a body in the river. 266 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:31.879 You got to call nine one one. Evidently he didn't 267 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.600 have a cell phone on him, so he wanted them 268 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.240 to call nine one one and report this body. And 269 00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:40.440 so the call came in to Dearborn Heights police who 270 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:44.480 arrived at the scene and they started speaking to everyone 271 00:16:44.679 --> 00:16:48.080 at the scene. By this time, the young man's dad 272 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.519 at the house had come out, you know, to see 273 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.120 what was going on. There was another family member there 274 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:56.519 who had come out. Probably people from nearby had wandered over, 275 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:00.159 and so the police began to speak to everyone at 276 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:03.000 the scene, and they began to close off the scene 277 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:07.920 and process the scene for per normal procedure. The man 278 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:12.400 who had flagged down the young man to call nine 279 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:16.279 to one one his story seemed strange to them. He 280 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:18.799 said that he was coming home from work, he wasn't 281 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.559 feeling well, and he had pulled over on the side 282 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.079 of the road because he felt like he was going 283 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:26.039 to throw up, and so he went over to the 284 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.319 bridge to throw up over the bridge. Well, he didn't 285 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:33.519 throw up, and as one police officer who was investigating 286 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:37.400 the case remarked later told me, he said, well, you know, 287 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.279 if you're driving home from work and you're feeling sick, 288 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.960 and you pull over and you look over a bridge 289 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:47.839 and you see someone lying on the combination of ice 290 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:50.960 and water it was at the time, because this was January, Michigan. 291 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:55.599 You see someone who's clearly deceased lying there. Wouldn't that 292 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.920 make you want to throw up? All the more so 293 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:01.440 wouldn't there be vomited the scene? And plus another strange 294 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:04.599 aspect of this is the man who had pulled over 295 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:08.519 was only about a block from home from where he 296 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:13.440 was living, so when he really stop the jeep and 297 00:18:13.880 --> 00:18:16.160 get out of the jeep and walk over the bridge 298 00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.559 when he's so close to home, only like a block away. 299 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.359 But he just seemed suspicious to them, and so they 300 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:25.960 asked him to come to the station in Dearborn Heights 301 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.160 to give his statement and to give more details. And 302 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.240 so that evening, it was probably I think around seven 303 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:36.240 o'clock when they started interviewing him at the station and 304 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.359 just went through the whole thing. Tell us, you know, 305 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:40.920 tell us what the deal is with us? What were 306 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:44.000 you doing driving home from work? But they leaned on 307 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.559 him pretty hard because they were very suspicious. Have you 308 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.200 ever seen this woman? Did you know her? Did you 309 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:51.480 have anything to do with this? You can tell us, 310 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:53.440 you know, you can get this off your chest. They 311 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.039 really leaned into it, and they were having a lot 312 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.880 of trouble getting anywhere because the man did sit there, 313 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.799 lie and lie and lie and tell story after story. 314 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.640 Because the man was the one who strangled Wendy just 315 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.000 hours earlier. So it was crazy. 316 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.079 That's just as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. 317 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:22.119 Now police are suspicious of this man's story. They also 318 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:27.319 speak to those witnesses that described his behavior on that bridge, 319 00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:30.680 and then did they get an opportunity to speak to 320 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:36.319 him again, and do they look into his previous record 321 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.079 if he has any previous record. 322 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:41.640 Okay, talking about the vomit thing. You know, I pulled 323 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:44.519 over because I thought I was going to be sick. Well, 324 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:47.720 I think it was the dad of the young man 325 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:52.359 who was watching this guy who had flagged down his son. 326 00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:59.519 He was watching him and just he seems strange to 327 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.839 the day because it's like he was almost putting on 328 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.480 a show because he noticed this dad watching him, and 329 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.599 then he started to act like he was going to 330 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:13.519 be sick or something, and it seemed kind of fake 331 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.559 to the dad, and so there was that aspect of it. 332 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:23.160 So they know this person's name who evidently discovered the 333 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:28.279 body on the river. And in the time between their 334 00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.599 arrival at the scene, which like I said, was probably 335 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:34.880 around four thirty, it was getting dark out maybe between 336 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:37.920 four thirty and five, and the man didn't come to 337 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:41.440 the station until like seven o'clock, and so they did 338 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.440 have a little bit of lead time where they poked 339 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.000 around a little bit in his background. They did find 340 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.680 something come up. He had worked in Nova, which is 341 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:54.440 another suburb of Western Metro Detroit, not too far away 342 00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:57.240 from where they were in Dearborn Heights. He had been 343 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.960 working in Nova as a security guard at a health 344 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:05.279 facility and there had been an incident, and this was 345 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:09.359 a couple months before. This was like November nineteen ninety nine, 346 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:15.400 and Armstrong had reported an incident where someone had tried 347 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:19.119 to break into the facility and he claimed that he 348 00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.039 had a weapon and he fought this guy off and 349 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:26.799 he ran away. Well, as they investigated this alleged incident, 350 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:31.440 they discovered that it was all a story. At least 351 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:35.519 Armstrong then did admit that he had made it up. 352 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:38.799 He had even cut himself with a knife to make 353 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:41.160 it look like he was in a scuffle with this 354 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:45.400 intruder at the facility. And so this was all on record, 355 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.680 this strange incident. And in the wake of this incident, 356 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:52.960 when police were investigating it, and you know, they told Armstrong, 357 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:56.119 you realize that, you know, we can charge you with 358 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:59.920 a crime over this, and it made Armstrong very no 359 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:02.799 nervous and actually put him in a little bit of 360 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:06.039 a tailspin to where he threatened to commit suicide. And 361 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:09.920 he attempted, actually with some medication to od and left 362 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:13.799 a note to his wife and you know, said he 363 00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:15.480 was going to end it all and all that. So 364 00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:19.279 they realized back in Dearborn Heights, Okay, there's some weird 365 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.160 stuff going on with this guy's background. This guy's got 366 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.839 some stuff going on. And that was part of the 367 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:29.000 reason too. I think that they leaned pretty hard on him, 368 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.200 at least one of the two interrogating officers or questioning 369 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:36.920 officers I'll say, not interrogating, but questioning this witness in quotes. 370 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.480 That's a big reason that they leaned on him pretty 371 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:43.720 hard to try to get him to admit if there 372 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.720 was something going on, you know, to find out what 373 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:48.240 is the nature of all of this. 374 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.599 You write about the tactics used by the detectives, one 375 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:59.519 sort of playing a good cop bad cop, and Serverwatowski 376 00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.799 to some of the strategies, and Petrie left the room 377 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:06.200 and he thought he was getting close. He was very 378 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:09.599 emotional and he thought just from past experience that he 379 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:13.200 might have something. But it wasn't to be. He said, 380 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:17.359 I'm comfortable with the questions can we stop now? But 381 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:20.559 he used this tactic to continue. Tell us about that. 382 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:24.319 Yep, oh gosh. I love listening to the recording. I 383 00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:27.720 listen it's about our hour and a half or so. 384 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:32.200 And it's so interesting from a psychological perspective. Armstrong sounds 385 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.519 so innocent. You know, I was just coming home. I 386 00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.119 was just coming home. But they asked him about all 387 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:39.599 kinds of stuff, like, you were in the navy, What 388 00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:41.759 did you do in the navy? How did you like it? 389 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:44.480 How did you he grew up in Newbern, North Carolina, 390 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:46.519 how did you like it there? You know, tell me 391 00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:49.720 about your family? And they were just making all kinds 392 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.519 of small talk. Now, Mike Petrie was the other officer, 393 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.079 and he had to leave the room. He actually was sick. 394 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:58.759 He had like a flu that was coming on that night, 395 00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:02.400 and so we actually he actually had to perhaps go vomit. 396 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:04.680 But he left the room for quite a while, and 397 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:09.920 it left Saratowski alone with Armstrong just really chatting just gently. 398 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:13.400 So you know, it's okay, er, Eric, Well we'll let 399 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:15.440 you go home pretty soon. You know, we just need 400 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.200 to know a few more things from you, you know, 401 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:20.400