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Head on over to 18 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,319 Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, forward slash Support and 19 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:45,959 do it there. 20 00:01:47,079 --> 00:01:47,439 Speaker 2: Thank you. 21 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingona Show. 22 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:55,760 Thomas is here and we're going to continue the series 23 00:01:55,799 --> 00:01:59,120 on mister Oswald Mosley how you doing, Thomas. 24 00:01:59,799 --> 00:02:05,319 Speaker 2: Well, well, thanks for having me. Is always there's a 25 00:02:05,359 --> 00:02:09,919 critical aspect of British fascism that tends to be neglected. 26 00:02:11,719 --> 00:02:19,199 The UK and Japan both interestingly, there was in the 27 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:27,439 later show era Japan's the Japanese Empire's economic profile. It 28 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,240 wasn't the internal situation wasn't configured anything like the UK, 29 00:02:32,479 --> 00:02:36,199 despite I mean supervisial parallels between like monarchy or something, 30 00:02:36,319 --> 00:02:40,479 if you want to draw such conclusions like some of 31 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:50,520 these like midwid Court historians do. But their financial system 32 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,639 proved more robust than some but it's still there was 33 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,960 still some pretty catastrophic effects. So like in nineteen twenty nine, 34 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:03,599 the UK didn't end up like Germany, and their structural 35 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,560 unemployment wasn't as bad as the United States, but there 36 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:10,960 was some pretty catastrophic problems and people forget the UK 37 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,120 went off the gold standard. There was this mutiny, like 38 00:03:15,159 --> 00:03:21,159 an out and out Royal Navy mutiny, because both officers 39 00:03:21,159 --> 00:03:25,120 and enlisted saw their pay cut by something like twenty 40 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,960 five percent in real terms, okay, and it was explained 41 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:36,639 that well, these were austerity measures, and the leadership element 42 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,639 of the Royal Navy, I mean obviously the direct line 43 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,520 to not just to the Crown, but you know, but 44 00:03:45,599 --> 00:03:49,039 to the Prime Minister. And they were trying to give 45 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,560 all these assurances but you know, to no avail, and 46 00:03:53,879 --> 00:03:57,400 that kind of thing is a way of catching fire 47 00:03:57,479 --> 00:04:01,520 proverbial lee. I mean, that's what and and in the 48 00:04:01,919 --> 00:04:03,919 I mean, that's that's what happened in the final age 49 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:08,439 of the Gray War in the German Empire. Okay, and uh, 50 00:04:08,639 --> 00:04:13,520 the Royal Navy had outsized clout for obvious reasons the 51 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,759 people who know the culture of the UK, So this 52 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:23,199 was pretty catastrohic. Moseley the way he came to fascism. 53 00:04:25,519 --> 00:04:27,759 You know, we talked a lot about his class origins 54 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:34,759 being discreetly congruous to that sort of trajectory, you know, 55 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:36,240 And I make that point a lot in my own 56 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,079 work product and stuff, because this idea that it was 57 00:04:40,199 --> 00:04:43,560 opportunistic or cynical is acid iron, because nobody would have 58 00:04:43,639 --> 00:04:51,439 taken on that kind of rogues, you know, position if 59 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,319 he if he didn't believe in it and planning seeing 60 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:58,720 it through despite the consequences. But you know, Mosley also 61 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,720 he wasn't genuine thread of the working man, and he 62 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:08,360 had like he had an integralist view of of what 63 00:05:08,959 --> 00:05:13,040 you know of what progressive politics should look like. And 64 00:05:16,639 --> 00:05:19,199 something else to keep in mind too. One of the 65 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,639 reasons why, especially in the UK, like everybody was a 66 00:05:22,759 --> 00:05:27,560 Keynesian like right and left and everything in between. The 67 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:33,759 reason people were susceptible to that error is because the 68 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,160 entire global financial system nacin does it may have been 69 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:45,839 in comparative and absolute terms, had completely collapsed and these 70 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,879 uncertainties couldn't just be allowed to resolve themselves over. Then 71 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,120 that's a decade or two decades there would have been 72 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,120 that you would have been just capitulating to revolutionary conditions. 73 00:05:56,639 --> 00:05:59,079 And had they not been an out and out communist revolution, 74 00:05:59,639 --> 00:06:02,439 there would have been like a total collapse of state institutions. 75 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,800 So said, the combinants of the body politic would have 76 00:06:05,879 --> 00:06:08,399 would have evaporated, and people would have resorted to self 77 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:14,560 help in ways that would have culminated in a literal anarchy. 78 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,759 And even guys like Schumpeter, who was you know, I 79 00:06:19,319 --> 00:06:24,759 believe that Trumpeter's business cycles is like the academic rebuttally Keynes. 80 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,680 Schumpeter was no kind of demand cider, okay, like it 81 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:37,639 all quite the contrary, but even he favored one time 82 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:43,759 shock therapy, you know, because he was he was commissioned 83 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,839 to try and help resolve the American situation early on 84 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,279 before he became persona on Grada with the New Dealers, 85 00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:53,040 you know, and he favored, you know, like an infusion 86 00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:58,839 of about five million dollars, which I can't give you 87 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,079 the exact figure adjusting for inflation, but that was a 88 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:07,000 tremendous amount of money in nineteen twenty nine. He favored 89 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:17,079 like a shock therapy flooding of of a currency markets 90 00:07:17,879 --> 00:07:22,240 with public funding, as like a one time event that 91 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,480 would try and that would sort of stop or at 92 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,839 least mitigate the deflationary spiral. Okay, so everybody there was 93 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:33,160 not a single person who had like a Laisy Fair 94 00:07:33,199 --> 00:07:35,959 review at this point, and you really couldn't. And in 95 00:07:36,319 --> 00:07:41,279 Schumpeter's view, he said, look like you know, the yes, 96 00:07:41,399 --> 00:07:46,560 there will be corrective structural features in coming decades, but 97 00:07:47,079 --> 00:07:50,319 the political system won't abide it. So it doesn't matter 98 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:56,920 if that's you know, incorrect in terms of pure medical economics. 99 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,439 That was a bit of a digression, but it was 100 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:04,560 a sense of understand the political situation in the UK, 101 00:08:04,839 --> 00:08:12,279 So what in real terms of what this led to 102 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,120 was the emergence of the national government in the United Kingdom. 103 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:25,680 And this was basically unprecedented, you know. And again the 104 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,120 economic slump, while not it's catastrophic in the UK, it 105 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,679 was the most severe it had ever been in history. 106 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:41,960 A key figure that kind of compromised confidence in the 107 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:51,679 government in the immediate aftermath of in the immediate aftermath 108 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:57,320 of the nineteen twenty nine crash, Philip Snowden, first Viscount Snowden. 109 00:09:00,399 --> 00:09:07,559 He was the He was the Minister of the Exchequer, 110 00:09:09,039 --> 00:09:12,799 and which for all practical purpose like a that's like 111 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:19,480 a cross between like a cabinet position at the at 112 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,519 the head of the treasury as well as being like 113 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,519 the chairman of the Federal Reserve, if such things existed, 114 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,000 then you know, he was based like the chief like 115 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:38,679 financial officer of the crown, you know. And he'd uh, 116 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:45,320 he he was uniquely like like labor interested a unique 117 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,000 sympathy for him, Okay, because he he tended. He kind 118 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,279 of built his reputation as a rhetorician as and and 119 00:09:55,399 --> 00:10:02,320 sort of a dynamic figure with these denunciations of capitalism 120 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:08,799 and a kind of encyclopedic knowledge of monetary theory and things. 121 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,879 You know, the problem was like there was no real 122 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,440 substance theory. It was just that it was it was 123 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:21,159 it was knowledge of elabor at trivia. And he was 124 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,120 the first Chancellor of the Exchequer who represented know, who 125 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:32,480 represented the Labor Party. But he broke with what was 126 00:10:32,519 --> 00:10:37,360 official Labor policy in nineteen thirty one visa the austerity measures, 127 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,440 and he got expelled from the party. And then later 128 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:46,679 that year Labor was crushed by the National Government Coalition 129 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,240 and he was succeeded as a Chancellor of the ex 130 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:58,399 Checker by Neville Chamberlain. Interestingly, I mean I think I 131 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,480 think Chamberlain would have eventually I'm Prime Minister anyway, but 132 00:11:04,159 --> 00:11:09,320 it was the crisis situation that really sort of a 133 00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:20,519 leap frog Chamberlain into the role. But at the helm 134 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:26,519 of the National Government Coalition was McDonald, James McDonald, James 135 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:31,559 Ramsey McDonald. He went by Ramsey McDonald. He's kind of 136 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,559 a forgotten prime minister, and that's that's a major blind 137 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,840 spot even of a lot of revision. It's not just 138 00:11:38,879 --> 00:11:43,240 court historians, because he was fundamentally important. McDonald had been 139 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:46,440 one of the founders of the Labor Party. Along with 140 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:55,519 Pier Hardy and Arthur Henderson. And he he had been 141 00:11:55,519 --> 00:11:58,320 a staunch opponent of the Great War and he never 142 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:12,320 wavered from a from that perspective. And he basically he's 143 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,559 the one he was able to break ranks with labor 144 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:24,320 in doctrinal terms in the wake of the Invergarden mutiny, 145 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,679 which is what I just referenced that the outset of 146 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:35,879 this discussion. But uh, you know, and he he formed 147 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,759 uh and this and he also he was able to 148 00:12:38,799 --> 00:12:43,759 court the Tory the Tories who defected to the National 149 00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:50,519 Coalition because uh, he promised to uh carry out austerity 150 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,320 measures that would defend and protect the gold standards so 151 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:59,080 it would survive as like the basis of monetary policy, 152 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,039 which failed, and that's one of the things that took 153 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:13,159 down Ramsey's government. But the phraseology that he employed in 154 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,120 nineteen thirty one and calling for a general election was 155 00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:19,759 he said, I need, I need to quote doctor's mandate 156 00:13:19,879 --> 00:13:23,480 to fix this economy, you know. And again like people 157 00:13:23,519 --> 00:13:25,279 are gonna look at that to oh, that's just typical 158 00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:28,679 like interventionist kinsy and socialism, Like yeah, it is, but 159 00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:33,240 you can't consider this, you know, In like nineteen sixties 160 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,840 or seventies or eighties terms or today's terms. You know, 161 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:40,879 I think I think McDonald would have advocated that anyway, 162 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,840 just because of his understanding of economics, or like misunderstanding, 163 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,679 if you will. But to say there was a fertile 164 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:58,919 ground for those kinds of proposed administrative remedies to macroeconomic frailies, 165 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,159 that doesn't even begin to describe it. It was a totally 166 00:14:02,159 --> 00:14:08,879 iring world and information awareness and the ability to manage 167 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,480 data at scale and real time that has totally completely 168 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:19,759 changed everything in terms of fiscal policy, economic planning, consumer confidence, 169 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,519 the trajectory of money, the way people approached stocks and 170 00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:32,720 capital investments, like everything. Okay, it's it's like comparing mathematics 171 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,000 by advocates to mathematics by like a nineteen sixties supercomputer, 172 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,840 if you'll allow an imperfect metaphor. But this was the 173 00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:47,240 backdrop that Mosley was dealing with, you know. And he 174 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:57,840 you know, he was about the youngest parliamentarian save a 175 00:14:57,879 --> 00:15:02,919 Fanian candidate who was boycotting the Commons. You know when 176 00:15:02,919 --> 00:15:08,000 he began, when Mosey began his his political career, you know, 177 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,679 he he was kind of perfectly Mosey. I mean he 178 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:15,919 was kind of perfectly situated to represent like a revolutionary 179 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,759 tendency that was at the same time patriotic. You know. 180 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:31,399 Mosey started talking right around this time. He had a 181 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:35,320 more than casual French of the H. G. Wells, and 182 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,759 he started talking about corporatism, and he said, look, the 183 00:15:40,759 --> 00:15:43,840 only chance of successful progress in this country, and really 184 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,080 the only the only way we're going to salvage the 185 00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:52,840 United Kingdom salvage Britain not just as uh, a society 186 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:57,000 that's not racked by class war and that retains an 187 00:15:57,039 --> 00:16:00,720 integral culture and Morgan census, but like, the only way 188 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:03,240 that that Britain is going to endure is a world power, 189 00:16:04,399 --> 00:16:06,120 you know, is we we've got to find a way 190 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,360 to cooperate with, you know, the the kind of top 191 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:19,159 intelligency of big business. Well's interestingly one of his lesser 192 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:24,840 known works these days. It's a it was like a novella. 193 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,320 You'd probably describe it in terms of length and and 194 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,039 and sort of narrative structure. It's called The Autocracy of 195 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,120 Mister Pelham, and it's basically it's sort of like the 196 00:16:39,679 --> 00:16:46,279 like like an Anglo Saxon version of Citizen Kane, but 197 00:16:46,399 --> 00:16:49,840 it's about this fascist political leader. He's kind of like 198 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:58,120 an anglophone Mussolini, and it's really it's interesting, you know, 199 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,639 and this is gonna be significant in a moment in 200 00:17:01,799 --> 00:17:04,319 terms in terms of what we described as far as 201 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,000 this like temporal snapshot of Mosey's career, as love the 202 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,920 European situation. Mussoleni at this point was viewed as a 203 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,759 heroic individual and people liked him, you know. That's why 204 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:23,960 some years later the Four Powers packed, which when ultimately, 205 00:17:24,039 --> 00:17:28,200 like the signatories put pen to paper faguirly and literally 206 00:17:29,279 --> 00:17:33,519 the substance of it had been gutted by a redaction. 207 00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:40,440 But Mussolni was viewed as this like dynamic savior of 208 00:17:40,519 --> 00:17:44,680 Italy and a man who was like on the cusp 209 00:17:44,759 --> 00:17:49,640 of a you know, like the new political theory and praxis, 210 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,039 and Italy was an important country then you know, like 211 00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:57,119 I'm not trashing Italy. I think Italians are great, and 212 00:17:57,319 --> 00:18:01,519 I think Italy is an awesome pilguer. But Italy had 213 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,160 they were far more significant, not just power political terms, 214 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,200 but in cultural terms. You know, like a lot of 215 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,759 a lot of trends like emerged from there, kind of 216 00:18:14,799 --> 00:18:19,279 like the way kind of like the way people looked 217 00:18:19,279 --> 00:18:22,119 at the UK in the sixties. You know, it was 218 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:27,160 kind of like the last Gas but like the UK 219 00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:30,559 is like cultural relevancy on the world stage, okay, like 220 00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:32,880 in political terms, like that's kind of people view to Italy. 221 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,119 And this was augmented by the fact that on the continent, 222 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:43,720 but especially in Italy, like the arts and cultural product 223 00:18:44,079 --> 00:18:48,559 had this outsized impact on politics and vice versa. You know, 224 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,079 so the fact that these like died in the wall 225 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,119 like Anglos as well as as well as some of 226 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,640 these on the other side, some of these iris cat 227 00:18:59,799 --> 00:19:04,480 like Fenian types, like look at Mussolini is ass like 228 00:19:04,519 --> 00:19:07,759 a heroic like man, you know, like a man's man. 229 00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:10,160 And and the and the kind of the kind of 230 00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:17,279 the kind of revolutionary you who can reconcile, you know, 231 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:24,319 the the the class wore crisis. You know that that 232 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,519 wasn't like moose That that wasn't just like a g 233 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,240 Wells and uh and Moseley being a couple of eccentrics. 234 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,720 That was that was a not uncommon thought or sentiment. 235 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:46,640 And uh George Bernard Shaw was another figure in this 236 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,119 kind of early Mosey Mulu and I made the point 237 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,880 a lot. And the guy who wrote there's this interesting 238 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,000 academic I think he was at University of Vermont. He's 239 00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:01,359 the guy who wrote this really good bo William Pierce 240 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,240 that Peers collaborated on. It was called Fame of a 241 00:20:04,319 --> 00:20:07,720 Dead Man's Deeds. I believe the guy's name is Robert Griffin. 242 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,640 But Griffin wrote a really good book about British fascism, 243 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,640 and he talked about how George Bernard Shaw was an 244 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,559 essential cultural figure in then Milleu and he was. And 245 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,079 people totally misunderstand this. I don't know if it's deliberate 246 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,319 because they don't want to credit an important literary giant 247 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,480 with having anything to do with fascism. I don't know 248 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,599 if it's ignorance. But you know, like Man and Superman, 249 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,480 which we'll get into in a moment, like the stage play, 250 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:49,680 that's both like a Nietzschean terrible but it it also 251 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,240 is like a political metaphor in defensive fascism. Okay, and 252 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:05,039 Shaw was a Shaw directly behooed young Moseley. He said, look, 253 00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:07,599 you've got to you've got to break with labor. You've 254 00:21:07,599 --> 00:21:09,440 got to break with the Labor Party, and you've got 255 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,839 to start. You've got to start a new movement, you 256 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,200 know it. And he's like, you can't. You've got to 257 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,720 avoid the You've got to you've got to avoid the 258 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,880 impulse to moderate or to compromise like McDonald did you know? 259 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,799 And he and this is a McDonald's on his way out. 260 00:21:28,839 --> 00:21:31,400 He's like that, that didn't That didn't save the prime minister. 261 00:21:31,519 --> 00:21:35,559 It's not gonna save you either. But also obviously, like 262 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,960 show a sensibility was one of extreme vitalism and historical 263 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:43,079 situated in this so we you know, he's like, we 264 00:21:43,599 --> 00:21:47,279 this is something that's that transcends like parliamentarism and anything 265 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:54,519 like that. Shaw later stepped back from involvement in party 266 00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:59,000 politics or bleak or otherwise. But I I see no 267 00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:01,640 evidence that he ever changed his mind, you know. And 268 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:10,079 but that's that's a that's an essential influence, even more 269 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,599 so than in some of these Uh what's it? 270 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: Can I interrupt them? 271 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:16,839 Speaker 2: Yeah? 272 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: Most people would relate Shaw and Wells more to the 273 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,160 Fabian Society, I mean four volume set. I read his 274 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,279 four volume set on the History of Man and it's 275 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,240 very it's it's almost like a progressive Bible. 276 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and well Wells wasn't any kind of fascist, 277 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,359 and it's a but I think Shaw basically was, you know. 278 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:46,720 But the one of the reasons why the communists were 279 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,480 always saying that fascism is just like a crisist motality 280 00:22:50,519 --> 00:22:54,839 of capitalism, and that's why it's so insidious and it's 281 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,480 hijacking the wabor movement and poisoning the minds of the proletariat. 282 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:05,680 They're there. There's a reason why they that was such 283 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,279 a graver area concerned and why it like stirred their 284 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:17,039 hostilities so much, because fascism was what a lot of 285 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:24,599 people in part probably subconsciously wanted to see develop, but 286 00:23:24,759 --> 00:23:31,440 they didn't have the conceptual vocabulary yet to describe it, 287 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,160 but they could identify it when they saw it. And 288 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,720 especially in the UK, the roots of this kind of 289 00:23:39,759 --> 00:23:44,359 like toxic secularism was already like well under way. So 290 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,400 you know, if you were if you were part of 291 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,960 like polite society and you're going to abide bourgeois convention 292 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:59,880 about what's morally appropriate, well, you're any any any kind 293 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:04,480 of radical or dynamic ideas you have, you're gonna you're 294 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:10,359 gonna suggest that those energies be mitigated by appeals to 295 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,720 utopian socialism and garbage like that. But uh, Wells, I 296 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:20,880 don't think Wells was particularly political. I think Wells he 297 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,799 obviously read a lot of Carlisle, and he he had 298 00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:27,160 a belief in messianic personages and in history, and he 299 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,519 thought hero worship was a good thing. And he liked 300 00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:34,039 Mussolini and a lot of left wingers like Mussolini. But 301 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,799 I mean some of them for half baked reasons and 302 00:24:37,799 --> 00:24:40,640 and for a thing, you know, for ill understood and 303 00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:48,319 ill understood you know, concepts and incomplete understandings. But uh, 304 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,279 a lot of them who were sophisticated, like Mussolini, for 305 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,400 reasons that aren't inconsistent with you know, they're the core 306 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:03,519 of that ideological culture. No, that's important to keep in mind. 307 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:11,400 And uh, already at this time, Moseley's enemies were talking 308 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:18,440 about him as like the English Hitler, you know, which 309 00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:24,039 was something of a backhanded compliment, because Hitler at this 310 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,960 point was what was killing it, you know. Nineteen twenty 311 00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:39,200 nine was the real breakthrough, you know. But uh, you know, 312 00:25:39,279 --> 00:25:42,400 so Mosley, this all this is, this culminated in Moseley 313 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,480 establishing the New Party, like literally, he called it the 314 00:25:47,559 --> 00:25:51,960 New Party. Mosley and his first wife, who also by 315 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:57,960 that time was a member of Parliament, and they were 316 00:25:58,079 --> 00:26:07,720 joined by a cadre of labor rights who defected, and 317 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:15,480 UH mostly was able to support their loyalty by the 318 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,240 dissemination of a can be known as the mostly Memo. Okay, 319 00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:30,799 it was basically capitalizing how we talked about a minute ago, 320 00:26:31,559 --> 00:26:38,079 this enthusiasm for Mussolini that was born of UH, you know, 321 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:42,759 a belief in the need for like an interventionist restructuring 322 00:26:42,799 --> 00:26:50,400 of the economy, and a belief that at a nascent 323 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:58,720 globalized economy, you know it, variables could not be left 324 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,079 to uncertainty awaiting structural correction because it would lead to 325 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:11,400 one tragedy that commons after another. You know, the people 326 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,799 like the Nunzio and Ft Marionnetti among British society, and 327 00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:20,920 like literary circles, they were respected like like literate people 328 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:32,559 read them and admired their output. You know, Shaw himself 329 00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:36,319 around this time he said that Mussolini exemplified true socialism 330 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,839 more than any British labor right. I mean, part of 331 00:27:38,839 --> 00:27:42,160 that was probably he liked to be an iconoclass, but 332 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,119 he wasn't wrong. I mean, if as it should be 333 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,759 clear to anybody who is familiar with the irrelevantlar and 334 00:27:51,799 --> 00:27:56,079 source material. And there was also there there was this 335 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,359 kind of just like fixation on Caesarism at the time 336 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,119 in the UK. There's a whole bunch of like pop 337 00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:08,400 history books that came out about the Roman Empire. There's 338 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,319 this one popular historian named George P. Baker. He wrote 339 00:28:12,319 --> 00:28:17,279 this book, uh called sull of the Fortunate the Great Dictator. 340 00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:24,440 There was another book, uh he wrote on Hannibal. There 341 00:28:24,519 --> 00:28:28,359 was a bunch of uh popular biphies that Julius Caesar, 342 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,720 you know, and they they virtually all of them contained 343 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,839 these sorts of uh polemic about the contemporary relevance of 344 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,960 you know, of Caesarism, and how like dictatorship is not 345 00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:50,680 this evil thing, you know, and how history, particularly crisis 346 00:28:50,759 --> 00:28:54,519 modalities they're in you know, they they select for you know, 347 00:28:55,440 --> 00:29:00,079 heroic personages like rising to the occasion, you know, and 348 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,680 you you know, the you can't just like one of 349 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,200 the problems, you know, the part of the malaise as 350 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,640 well as part of the callous and this that's led 351 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,880 the class war in the UK is just kind of 352 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,599 like writing off the suffering of the of the laboring 353 00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:18,039 classes as well. That's that, that's just you know, the 354 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:20,440 tragedy history, you know that, that's just you know, the 355 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,640 creative destruction, you know, where that's just you know, corrective 356 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,559 mechanisms mean that some people are gonna entire classes or 357 00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:30,440 of humans are gonna proverbially drown, you know, while others 358 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:37,720 you know, swim and thry. You know. So there was 359 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:44,039 a much more organic kind of foundation the emergency of 360 00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:46,799 a British fascism of like a true sort, because like 361 00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:49,599 we talked about last time, kind of the early iterations 362 00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:52,559 of like British fascism, it was basically these like out 363 00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:56,599 of touch tories who they like the anti communism of 364 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,279 Mussolini and the fascists, and they like the pageantry and optics, 365 00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:03,200 but they didn't really know what the hell they were 366 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,559 talking about, you know, or they were like symbolton like uh, 367 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,799 white racialists like Arnold Leese, who were trying to extrapolate 368 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:19,200 you know, like Darwinian reductionist nonsense to you know, to 369 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,480 power political affairs. You know that but that that that 370 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:26,519 kind of that kind of bullshit had largely been swept 371 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:30,279 away by you know the climate of post nineteen twenty 372 00:30:30,359 --> 00:30:35,279 nine for reasons like what I just enumerated or elucidated 373 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:43,519 rather so the new party it was, it's a sentence. 374 00:30:43,559 --> 00:30:50,240 He was brief and kind of meteoric, and the foundations 375 00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:53,519 of what became the British Union of Fascists were absolutely 376 00:30:53,640 --> 00:31:05,680 laid during this kind of nasty phase. Is December sixth 377 00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:11,359 ninety and thirty that mostly he published like an expanded 378 00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:17,720 and probably probably annotated version of the mostly memorandum, which 379 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:26,200 mostly UH and his wife, who was also a member 380 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,400 of Parliament. Like I said, Lady Cynthia and Uh, fifteen 381 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:36,640 of these defecting labor MPs signed off on. It was 382 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,599 February ninety and thirty one mostly formally resigned from labor. 383 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,799 He wants a new party the following day, March first, 384 00:31:46,000 --> 00:32:01,000 nineteen thirty one. Excuse me and us to these guys. 385 00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:06,799 Most these defecting labor rights sat in the House of 386 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:17,440 Comments as independence. A couple resigned because there will become 387 00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:21,759 clayer in the hindsight, this early kind of cadre that 388 00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:27,680 mostly built around himself, with some exceptions, some of these 389 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,240 people weren't really committed, and even if they were, they 390 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,279 they didn't they didn't really they kind of viewed Moldy 391 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:36,319 there trying to instinue it himself into like a kingmaker 392 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:43,400 role and a spoiler element and if that makes any sense. 393 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,680 And they figured that, you know, we'll be able to 394 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,720 like reconstitute the government like within you know, the parameters. 395 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:58,319 That was feasible, you know, according to the the political situation, 396 00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:01,920 you know, you know, like what we want to accomplish 397 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:08,279 in terms of you know, repealing these austerity measures and 398 00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:10,640 and and and creating some kind of corporative structure that 399 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,079 will have permanent legs. That that was not realistic for 400 00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:18,000 a lot of reasons. That's also not what Mosley was 401 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,599 trying to do. And we'll get into what I mean 402 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,440 in a minute. What Moseley was was able to do. 403 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,480 He started being able to attract money, particularly from some 404 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:39,519 of the lesser nobility, and most significantly from uh this 405 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:47,480 guy Lord Newfield, who was trying to carve out a 406 00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:52,559 presence in print media. And Mosley what he always covetated. 407 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,720 He knew that William Randolph Hurst wasn't admirer of Mussolini 408 00:33:57,839 --> 00:33:59,440 and even a little bit I'm getting a little ahead 409 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,319 of myself. And Moseley's objective was to capture a patron 410 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:10,079 like a Hearst, But what he got was about fifty 411 00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:14,559 thousand pounds sterling from Newfield, which he utilized to launch 412 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:23,639 a magazine called Action, which later kind of morphed into 413 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:32,960 the British Union of Fascists newspaper. But as the New 414 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,480 Party got underway, there was an information blackout from the establishment, 415 00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:47,000 so this was especially imperative. The New Party produced a 416 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:51,400 film A it was like one half propaganda film, like 417 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:57,400 one half statement of their platform and core principles. It 418 00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:06,039 was edited by Harold Nicholson, who was uh who was uh. 419 00:35:06,519 --> 00:35:08,039 He had he had his he had his hands in 420 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,039 print media and in the newspaper and publishing industry as 421 00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:16,119 well as in you know, like the nascent film industry. 422 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,039 You know, he was uh in the early days that 423 00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:21,559 you could kind of view him as like the New 424 00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:29,000 Party information minister. And this film uh was actually very 425 00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:35,559 professionally done, but uh it was the the censors bandit 426 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,119 on grounds that it would quote bring Parliament into disrepute, 427 00:35:42,559 --> 00:35:47,119 and there was one it was the film was interspersed 428 00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:56,119 with like dramatic reconstructions and uh, you know, staged uh 429 00:35:56,599 --> 00:36:00,880 scenarios with actual footage and there were some films some 430 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,920 parliamentarians literally sleeping while Commons was in session, and that's 431 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,000 what they focused on, and they're like, this is slanderous, 432 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,039 you know, this is this is this is a hit 433 00:36:10,119 --> 00:36:13,880 piece on the Commons. You know, it's trying to is 434 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,079 trying to bring the government to this repute, you know, 435 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,000 which was obviously nonsense and basically without president other than 436 00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:32,119 during wartime, you know, most importantly what Mosey did at 437 00:36:32,119 --> 00:36:37,800 this time he established a direct action militia. Later they 438 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:43,079 became the Black Shirts. Colloquially they were called the Biff Boys. 439 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:52,840 The captain of this militia was this English rugby star 440 00:36:53,000 --> 00:37:00,239 named Peter Howard, and Moseley's notion was, you know, we've 441 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:01,760 got here. I mean most he was kind of a 442 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,760 rough in neck character anyway, you know at Sanders, you know, 443 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,760 he was known for brawling and stuff like just for 444 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,559 ships and kicks as well as the defend matters of honor. 445 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,320 You know, he'd been a boxer until some of his 446 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:30,719 superiors and uh sort of mentors like advised him, you know, 447 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,000 you you should take up a gentleman's sport like fencings. 448 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,280 That's what he did. But you know, well, he really 449 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,800 did have like a thug element to him, you know, 450 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,559 and uh so, I mean he he enjoyed that kind 451 00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:47,800 of stuff, but also it was essential and he saw 452 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,000 the writing on the wall. And even at this time 453 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:58,920 he'd been watching what the Hitler government was was doing 454 00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:02,079 or when the National so he was watching like what 455 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:05,119 the national Solis had been doing when they broke through 456 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:09,800 to the to the Reichs. This is before this was 457 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,800 just before Hitler was made Chancellor Reichs Coosler. But uh, 458 00:38:14,679 --> 00:38:19,920 you know, he realized that, uh, you know, but the 459 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,159 leaves of our problems are are gonna be the fact 460 00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:26,599 that you know, our movies aren't aren't shown in the cinema, 461 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,639 and there's a blackout on on our affairs and our 462 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,360 successes and in in in print media. You know where 463 00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:38,440 we're we're gonna have to fight it out in the 464 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,639 street if if we're gonna break through like the National 465 00:38:41,679 --> 00:38:48,440 Socialists did and and like the Fascists did, and uh, 466 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,760 like I said, although most of what the New Party, 467 00:38:53,199 --> 00:38:59,320 most of its sociological kind of infrastructure was shed by 468 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,480 the time they read branded as the BUF, but the 469 00:39:04,599 --> 00:39:07,519 New Party, the New Party youth militia, you know, which 470 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:14,079 became the black Shirts. Like that that remained. The first 471 00:39:14,119 --> 00:39:20,119 electoral contest was that it was for There was a 472 00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:26,679 by election for Ashton under Lynn Line because the MP 473 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,599 had died in office. Alan Young, who was an early 474 00:39:30,679 --> 00:39:45,039 Mosley acolyte, stood against William Risbon, and there the new 475 00:39:45,039 --> 00:39:47,719 party had only a thread to organization on the ground. 476 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:55,880 Young polled fifteen or sixteen percent, which effectively did split 477 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,760 the labor vote and allowed a concert of MP to 478 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,440 return to the Commons, which could be viewed as a 479 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,840 mission accomplished, because I mean I did force people to 480 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:17,960 take the most the organizations seriously. But again, even even 481 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,000 at this early stage, Mosley wasn't trying to position himself 482 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,159 as spoiler, and he wasn't the permise. The new party 483 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:29,719 wasn't like the Dixie Kratz or something who were you know, 484 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,079 head in mind, what Wallace was trying to accomplish, not 485 00:40:33,119 --> 00:40:36,000 like the I mean, what Wallace accomplished was was remarkable 486 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,360 when I in the American system. That was kind of 487 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:46,559 a stroke and genius. But I'm not suggesting something punitive 488 00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:49,039 about that. But that's simply not what Mosley was trying 489 00:40:49,039 --> 00:40:57,239 to accomplish the kind of critical. Uh. The kind of 490 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:08,280 critical event or juncture was when Moseley, in a delegation 491 00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:15,039 of New Party types went to Rome. Mosey went to 492 00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:18,199 Rome twice. He went in ninety thirty two and ninety 493 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:34,400 thirty three, and the both of these were instrumental in 494 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:40,320 the fortunes of of what became the BUF, as well 495 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:46,800 as in Mosley's kind of personal development as a as 496 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:54,079 a fascist. And at this time too, Mosley issued a 497 00:41:54,159 --> 00:42:04,519 statement and he said that he said that class war 498 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:10,559 and particularly the situation of the communists and some of 499 00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:17,440 the affiliated trade union movements. He said that that he said, 500 00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:19,920 uh this this was supposed to be an internal memo, 501 00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:23,800 but it was. It was leaked. I think people speculate 502 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,079 it might have been deliberately leaked by Mosley himself. I 503 00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:29,280 don't believe that, but I I there might have been 504 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,960 some like Ledgered Maine on the side of the New 505 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,920 Party that just it's kind of bring attention to the organization. 506 00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:43,320 But uh, well, he was accused of welcoming revolutionary conditions 507 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:48,920 because he said that he said that we need we 508 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:54,079 need some sort of class war, at least the threat 509 00:42:54,159 --> 00:43:00,920 of it, to uh facilitate what he called the provocative 510 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,239 rather than tranquilizing effect. Had he directly referred to the 511 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:12,679 situation in Vaimar and in Italy, and he was savaged in 512 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,679 the mainstream press. You know, he was called an anarchist, 513 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,559 he was called a communist. He was accused and in 514 00:43:21,639 --> 00:43:25,440 an open session of the Commons of quote cynically welcoming 515 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,880 disorder as a way of publicizing his readiness to deal 516 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:40,119 with red disruption and the quote most of these rebuttal wash. 517 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,320 He said, our long term purpose and needs to quote 518 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,280 to be to take control at a revolutionary situation, which 519 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:58,679 is absolutely correct. But this uh made headlines quite literally, 520 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:03,400 not just in the UK, but also on the continent. 521 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:12,840 And this is also when he began openly within his 522 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:17,159 inner circle and particularly in the way he addressed the 523 00:44:18,519 --> 00:44:25,880 new Party militia. He started pulling out the National Socialist Movement, 524 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:36,519 it's the model organization. In June nineteen thirty one, he 525 00:44:36,599 --> 00:44:40,960 actually sent two Emis Series Major Thompson and Leslie Cummings 526 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:49,519 to Germany to liaise with National Socialists and to talk 527 00:44:49,639 --> 00:44:55,400 to say Cadres and gal Lighters and whoever else to 528 00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,559 get an audience with about you know, the the direct 529 00:45:00,639 --> 00:45:07,000 action methods employed, you know, in the revolutionary conditions, and 530 00:45:07,159 --> 00:45:12,400 uh they actually visited uh the Brown House in Munich, 531 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:20,440 you know, National Socialist headquarters, and uh, this very much 532 00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:30,280 came from Moseley. The party had more of a a 533 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,840 committee structure. There wasn't the kind of fure prin zip 534 00:45:35,519 --> 00:45:43,159 or equivalent, but mostly controlled the party's funds. And uh, ultimately, 535 00:45:43,199 --> 00:45:47,480 I mean policy emanated from from him and his pen 536 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,199 you know. So the it's not as if he fell 537 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,159 into the influence of like at the time like uh, 538 00:45:58,199 --> 00:46:04,079 some of his like well intentioned but misguided friends and 539 00:46:04,119 --> 00:46:06,559 then that and this kind of mythology endured like for 540 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,920 decades for people thinking that this was like you know, 541 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,960 they were helping Moseley or his memory like, oh he 542 00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:15,360 just fell into the influence of fascists, you know that 543 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,960 this mose was was was misled. I mean that that's 544 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,400 not a sense I mean for all kinds of reasons 545 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,079 that should be obvious, but it but he wasn't. He 546 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,119 he didn't come into the sway of some like Nazi 547 00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:35,880 cadre or whatever like or you know what whatever whatever whatever. 548 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,280 Some of these tory types like admired and admire Mosley, 549 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:45,320 like like to claim. But that's also the effect like 550 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:53,079 Alan Young, you know who, who who stood for who 551 00:46:53,199 --> 00:46:55,599 stood you know who challenged the by election and the 552 00:46:55,679 --> 00:46:59,199 new party ticket. You know, he he he left the 553 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,639 party immediately when it became clear that you know, they 554 00:47:01,639 --> 00:47:16,360 were moving towards them. Over at fascism, Beaverbrook, uh said, correctly, 555 00:47:18,599 --> 00:47:21,000 he said not. He said, any party that's going to 556 00:47:21,119 --> 00:47:28,719 challenge the establishment for for the loyalty of the body politic, 557 00:47:29,639 --> 00:47:35,800 but especially you know, like a fascistic element would require 558 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,599 he meant sums of money, but also like a base 559 00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:47,199 of true journalistic support, you know, and in Mosley's view, 560 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,719 you know, raising money. Money is always a problem. But 561 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:57,960 that's but it's a problem we remedied overcoming what he called, 562 00:47:58,199 --> 00:48:02,719 not incorrectly, the conspiracy of silence in in media was 563 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:09,320 was the real issue. And so I mean the branding, 564 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,199 I mean, don't gonna be wrong. Well, he was a 565 00:48:12,079 --> 00:48:14,239 he was a doctrinaire fascist and kind of the pure 566 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:22,280 purest sense. But he he knew that uh ran off Hers, 567 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:30,360 for example, had invested over a million dollars in uh 568 00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:34,719 Mussolini's cause early on, just for the sake of a 569 00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:45,039 disseminating you know, the fascist position and and facilitating the 570 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,000 psychological effect of it being you know, like a truly 571 00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:55,719 ubiquitous movement, you know, and in those days, like print 572 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,880 media was really the only game in town, and like 573 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,360 day to day like paral terms, you know, I mean, 574 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:06,320 like yeah, you visual media nascent as it was, it 575 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:12,760 had a huge impact, but that was expensive, it was infrequent, 576 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:18,519 and you know, you needed uh you you needed uh 577 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,400 you basically needed like a newspaper that was already established 578 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:29,880 that would carry the your propaganda neese, you know. And 579 00:49:30,039 --> 00:49:34,599 the way the National Socialist accomplished accomplished that was somewhat unusual. 580 00:49:35,639 --> 00:49:39,559 But it was a very different media culture on the 581 00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:47,760 continent and especially in especially in Germany. And also it 582 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,280 was uh, I mean not this isn't a discussion of 583 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,960 the of the German situation, but it doesn't need to 584 00:49:53,960 --> 00:50:00,599 be noted. You know, Hitler's barnstorming was something that made 585 00:50:00,679 --> 00:50:04,320 up for a lot of the you know, a lot 586 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:08,920 of these a lot of these kind of shortfalls in 587 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,960 and in an active propagandas sector, you know, but like 588 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,079 that wasn't that wasn't feasible in the United Kingdom for 589 00:50:17,079 --> 00:50:20,519 a few different reasons. And also like the UK. It 590 00:50:20,519 --> 00:50:22,920 was only the first true kind of like newspaper culture 591 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,840 in my opinion, you know, like way more so than 592 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,320 the United States. Although the United States it was even 593 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:34,719 more so than on the continent. But that's that's kind 594 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:43,039 of a subject for its own dedicated God. But when 595 00:50:43,199 --> 00:50:51,440 uh when Mosley actually when he visited Rome for the 596 00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:59,280 first time in januaryinety thirty two, he justified it to uh, 597 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,559 the party cadre as uh and we need we need 598 00:51:03,599 --> 00:51:07,440 to study, you know, the modern fascist movement wherever it lives, 599 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:13,840 you know, and he all he intended on visiting, He 600 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,599 intended on visiting the Soviet Union too. Well, that never 601 00:51:17,639 --> 00:51:23,199 came to fruition because knowing is he did. 602 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:26,320 Speaker 1: That. 603 00:51:26,519 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 2: Uh, you know, Mussolini spent a lot of time studying 604 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:41,360 Leninist political warfare. The Soviet Union as a Stalin was 605 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:51,920 truly kind of consolidating the critical infrastructure. It wasn't it 606 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:58,480 wasn't really clear what the internal situation was in the 607 00:51:58,519 --> 00:52:04,239 Soviet Union all but what was clear was that, you know, 608 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:12,920 against all expectations and against all probabilities, you know, a 609 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:19,760 revolutionary cadre structure without real support when that body politic 610 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,440 at scale was able to conquer the largest country on 611 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:35,559 this planet, you know, just for context, But in In 612 00:52:37,599 --> 00:52:40,000 and plus two, like Lenin had that there'd been a 613 00:52:40,039 --> 00:52:44,519 weird uh kind of conceptual discourse with in the communists 614 00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:53,960 and Mussolini. Like before Uh in Mussolini's revolutionary socialist days, 615 00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:01,079 Lenin had viewed him as uh like the most potentially 616 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,400 if you, Lenin gewed him as the revolutionary on the 617 00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:13,199 content with the most potential Mussolini. And interestingly Lenin Lenin 618 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,159 believed that mus Leni had been corrupted by his experience 619 00:53:16,199 --> 00:53:21,760 at the front and that the the adoption of the 620 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:28,480 Fascist party platform was both cynical and pragmatic, and you know, 621 00:53:29,599 --> 00:53:34,599 owing to communist epistemic assumptions. You know, well, you know, 622 00:53:34,679 --> 00:53:37,480 Moose Leni was co opted by capitalists, you know, because 623 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,800 this is this is this is just you know, a 624 00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:44,719 crisis modality of capitalism and it's it's drawing upon symbolic 625 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:49,639 psychology to you know, to convince people that it represents 626 00:53:49,639 --> 00:53:53,119 a different tendency when it's it's really it's it's really 627 00:53:53,159 --> 00:53:57,559 just you know, crisis mode industrial capitalism under like a 628 00:53:57,559 --> 00:54:04,360 different apparently fresh guys. But Mozi was treated like a 629 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:10,840 celebrity in Italy, which is which is interesting because Mussolini 630 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:20,519 notoriously was not welcoming of people who were well, you know, 631 00:54:21,639 --> 00:54:25,760 propritical purposes like making Hodge the fancist Italy to you know, 632 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:30,239 pay homage, to tell duce or to try and lean 633 00:54:32,199 --> 00:54:36,880 some some some esoteric knowledge of of of of revolutionary 634 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:45,920 ambition or something or political soldiery. You know. It's but uh, 635 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,679 the Italians I think had a certain the Italians and 636 00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:54,639 the English traditionally kind of respected each other. Each respects 637 00:54:54,679 --> 00:54:57,159 the other for what what they're not, for what they 638 00:54:57,159 --> 00:54:59,239 themselves are not. I think that's part of it. But 639 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:08,480 you know, it's also the key to just as Hitler recognized, 640 00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:14,719 you know, uh, Mussolini was more of early ecumenical in 641 00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:18,519 ideological terms. I mean, Hitler was no German nationalists. Quite 642 00:55:18,519 --> 00:55:21,440 the opposite. I mean we've discussed that before. However, Hitler 643 00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:28,159 didn't view national socialism as some ideological paradigm that was 644 00:55:30,199 --> 00:55:38,360 you know, universally applicable to you know, world historical processes. 645 00:55:39,679 --> 00:55:42,519 You know, That's why, with the exception of the independent 646 00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:49,039 State of Croatia, Hitler really didn't back you know, like 647 00:55:49,199 --> 00:55:53,000 national socialist movements like out outside of the the core 648 00:55:53,039 --> 00:55:59,920 of the right. Mussolini believed in a fascist international quite literally, 649 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,960 and there there actually was like a Fascist International conference, 650 00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:10,800 which I think is a really fancying topic in nineteen 651 00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:15,159 thirty five. I think, but because it may like despite 652 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,519 somebody congruously like Musli was notorious for snubbing you know, 653 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,719 fascist cadres and and their leadership elopment when they got 654 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:30,840 to visit, but Mussolini was uh was treated, uh or 655 00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:35,119 mostly was treated like a you know, like a like 656 00:56:35,159 --> 00:56:52,239 a celebrity in Italy, and they interestingly too and one 657 00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:56,960 of uh, like mus Leans or uh, mostes bographers tend 658 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,559 to fall back. They didn't have fallen one side or 659 00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:04,400 the other of of this issue. Some people claim that 660 00:57:04,599 --> 00:57:07,239 Mosey wasn't at all anti Semitic. I mean, I don't 661 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,079 like that term, but just for the sake of you know, intelligibility, 662 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:20,880 Fascist Italy in the they there were race laws that 663 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:25,320 were basically reflected the Nuremberg laws that were passed later on, 664 00:57:26,719 --> 00:57:31,079 in part owing to I think the brutalizing effect of 665 00:57:31,159 --> 00:57:35,639 the war as well as, uh, the increasing influence of 666 00:57:37,119 --> 00:57:43,639 the Reich on their internal situation. So there wasn't there 667 00:57:43,679 --> 00:57:46,719 wasn't this like a hard and fast like racialism in Italy. 668 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:53,440 But to say like they weren't like anti Jewish in 669 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:58,760 political terms, I think it's naive and just like incorrect. 670 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:04,320 You know, Mosley had some prominent Jews in his inner circle, 671 00:58:06,079 --> 00:58:11,880 at least in the New Party days. You know, Moley 672 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:17,199 being like an avid uh boxing aficionado throughout his whole life. 673 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:24,960 There's a relatorweight champione Saw mendel Off. He fought under 674 00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,360 the name kid Lewis. You know, he was like an 675 00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:35,159 ethnic Jew and he and he'd he'd do security with them, 676 00:58:35,199 --> 00:58:38,039 you know, with what became the black Shirts, you know, 677 00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,800 and uh, he seemed very much to be on board 678 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,440 with the program. He wasn't just doing it for money 679 00:58:46,599 --> 00:58:57,480 or nothing on the order. Mostly Uh never shied from 680 00:58:57,519 --> 00:59:04,599 the Jewish question later, but he he also never talked 681 00:59:04,599 --> 00:59:12,480 about it in biologically racialist terms. I think that owes 682 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,119 to the internal situation of the UK. I don't. I don't. 683 00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,920 I think it owes any emulation of Mussolini is as 684 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:27,320 some sort of moral arbiter of of fascist ethics or something. 685 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,960 But I just put that out there because I know 686 00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,239 it's gonna come up either in the comments or you know, 687 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,000 people are gonna want to discuss it, and which is fine. 688 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:42,840 I'm not saying they shouldn't, but it was that was, uh, 689 00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:49,360 that was the true turning point in my opinion. I 690 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:55,519 think by nineteen thirty one most was a fascist and 691 00:59:55,519 --> 01:00:00,760 in all but name, but after after their turn from Italy, 692 01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:08,039 and obviously it was you know, it was mere months 693 01:00:08,239 --> 01:00:17,199 not years later that the BUF was was consolidated, essentially 694 01:00:17,199 --> 01:00:25,440 by assimilating all the fascist elements that exhibited any viability 695 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:33,039 in Gameness and in England and Scotland. Interestingly, you know, 696 01:00:33,679 --> 01:00:39,880 one of the things that caused, uh, mostly the initial 697 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:49,440 falling out with with his National Liberal fellows was on 698 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:51,840 the Irish issue and what he viewed as their you know, 699 01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:59,320 eject callousness towards the Irish. In Scotland, many, if not most, 700 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:04,360 of the fashion of any significance fascist cadres. They were, 701 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:09,679 they were arch loyalists, they were very sectarian. And Billy 702 01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:16,360 Fullerton he was the he was a gangster and he 703 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:22,920 was the original, the original Billy Boys mob. You know, 704 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:28,039 they were like a they were a sectarian, uh gang 705 01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:36,639 and uh he was a BUF partisan. So that that 706 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:42,280 led to kind of a delicate situation, which I think 707 01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:48,519 what it caused UH a real rift. Had the b 708 01:01:48,599 --> 01:01:52,360 U f F had had the I mean, the b 709 01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:55,360 us fortunes ultimately became in extrictly bound up with that 710 01:01:55,599 --> 01:01:58,719 of the access and the German Reich for obvious reasons, 711 01:01:58,719 --> 01:02:05,079 and the Kingdom of Italy. Had UH had fascism endured 712 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:13,639 in a counterfactual historical scenario, it's an interesting question, like 713 01:02:13,679 --> 01:02:19,519 how the matter of Ireland and sectarian hostility would have 714 01:02:19,559 --> 01:02:25,519 played out. But that's probably too kind of speculative and abstract. 715 01:02:25,639 --> 01:02:30,000 But I think we're coming up on about an hour. 716 01:02:31,119 --> 01:02:34,159 I promise will wrap it up in the next episode. 717 01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:40,280 I hope this was informative and entertaining to all the 718 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:44,480 subs and not just dry and trivial. But like I said, 719 01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,639 this is a subject near and dear to my heart, 720 01:02:47,719 --> 01:02:51,559 in addition to being you know, very much in my 721 01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:54,400 very you know very much kind of at the center 722 01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:57,320 of my research interest. So yeah, well we'll reconvene in 723 01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:59,800 a few days. I'm going on vacation this weekend. I 724 01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:03,840 know you know that, but I think I deserve a 725 01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,480 Thomas cation, Like I travel a lot, but you know, 726 01:03:06,519 --> 01:03:08,360 not probably seems like I don't do much like on 727 01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:13,000 these traveling johnts, like I just saw we just saw 728 01:03:13,039 --> 01:03:16,159 each other in Atlanta, yeah, man, which was great. Yeah. 729 01:03:16,199 --> 01:03:21,559 But I'll be back Sunday night, and I uh, I'll 730 01:03:21,559 --> 01:03:23,880 be crossing paths with a bunch of the OGC guys, 731 01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:29,039 so I'll give them your best course. Yeah. But yeah, 732 01:03:29,039 --> 01:03:31,400 well we'll reconvene as soon as I get back. Man. 733 01:03:32,039 --> 01:03:34,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think anybody, any of the subs are 734 01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:36,880 going to complain about five episodes on mister Mosley. So 735 01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:40,000 do you quick plugs? 736 01:03:40,599 --> 01:03:45,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Man. The best place to seek out 737 01:03:45,559 --> 01:03:50,280 my content is this substick is real Thomas seven seven 738 01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:54,159 seven at subsec dot com. I uh, I'm a good 739 01:03:54,199 --> 01:03:57,760 count of with my friend Rake, who who edited our movie. 740 01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,639 When I get back from our gon, we're gonna release 741 01:04:01,719 --> 01:04:06,559 the movie and I'm gonna release steel Storm too, and 742 01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:11,519 not steel Storm too, I mean in addition, also, I've 743 01:04:11,519 --> 01:04:15,199 got plenty of mind Paezers season three content that is 744 01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:19,480 on schedule to be released bi weekly moving forward. But uh, 745 01:04:19,719 --> 01:04:23,400 I know there's been some delays in steel Storm, and 746 01:04:23,559 --> 01:04:26,000 I want to keep people posted on the movie. But 747 01:04:26,039 --> 01:04:28,599 as soon as I get back. I'm going to decide 748 01:04:28,599 --> 01:04:30,599 the best way to upload it, like in terms of 749 01:04:30,639 --> 01:04:34,880 what platforms, and I'm very excited and I think people 750 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:40,280 will really enjoy it. But I'm on social media. My 751 01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,800 alt is at Capel r e A L underscore number 752 01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:48,119 seven H m as seven seven seven. You can always visit. 753 01:04:48,159 --> 01:04:51,960 My website is Thomas seven seven seven dot com. But 754 01:04:52,039 --> 01:04:56,079 it's it's it's under construction. I mean you can still 755 01:04:56,119 --> 01:04:59,440 access it and stuff, but it needs work. And I've 756 01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:01,599 got a lot of my play right now. But that's 757 01:05:01,599 --> 01:05:07,920 gonna get resolved too, I promise. But yeah, that's that's uh, 758 01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,639 that's what I got, and that's all not feeling great. 759 01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:15,079 So forgive me if I I forgive me if this 760 01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:18,199 was less cogent than it should have been. 761 01:05:19,039 --> 01:05:20,920 Speaker 1: I don't think any of them. I don't think anybody. 762 01:05:21,679 --> 01:05:23,280 I don't think anybody will be able to tell you 763 01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,880 we're sick. This was, this was, this is great. 764 01:05:26,239 --> 01:05:28,159 Speaker 2: Okay, No, thank you, I appreciate that. 765 01:05:28,239 --> 01:05:30,800 Speaker 1: Until until episode five, thank you very much. 766 01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:51,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. M H.