Speaker 1: We're Tom Lorenzo and this is the Pop Style Opinion
Fest Telekit, and welcome back to another edition of the PSO.
I am the Teen, You're Telo, Tom Fitzgerald, and I'm
here with the Low and you my love husband. We
have recorded this podcast. We have recorded this podcast in
hotel rooms and on vacation and in all sorts of
times and places. But I'm fairly certain this is the
earliest we have ever ever flipped these mics.
Speaker 2: We're in the dark.
Speaker 3: It is literally dark out.
Speaker 1: I only have half a cup of coffee in me,
so it's going to be amazing if I make it
through this next hour.
Speaker 2: But we have to do it before they start banging.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The construction, oh my god, outside has gotten out of
control and it's happening at all times of the day.
And it's not just that they're building something behind us.
They're also renovating the building that's attached to us on
one side and they're drilling. There's jackhammers out on the street, like.
Speaker 3: Literally right outside.
Speaker 2: It's amazing.
Speaker 1: It's amazing, and this is why this podcast is so late.
Well anyway, Yeah, we just could not get a recording
done and we had a slot on like Monday, where
we could have put out a podcast, and I said
to Lorenzo, I was like, yeah, but Wednesday is the
Actata all along finally, so it almost seems silly.
Speaker 3: To so we pushed it off.
Speaker 2: The funny thing is how we have cats adjut so
quickly because they were freaked out the first day and now.
Speaker 3: They don't care the first day oh of the noise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now they don't care.
Speaker 3: They don't really.
Speaker 2: That was like, yeah, whatever, cats are amazing.
Speaker 3: Anyway, Happy Halloween.
Speaker 1: It is Halloween morning, and we are going to have
a very witchy sort of podcast. We're going to talk
about the final three episodes.
Speaker 3: Of Agata the whole long.
Speaker 1: We're going to make a little bit of time to
talk about Disclaimer, the previous episode of Disclaimer. The new
The next episode comes out tomorrow, but I got to say,
I'm mostly checked out at this point, but we will.
Speaker 2: I just realized something. We don't have any candy Halloween,
and we don't have candy.
Speaker 1: Because we're going away and we're trying to maintain a
certain fit because we have wedding outfits to get to
get into.
Speaker 2: So that's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we leave next.
Speaker 1: Week for Ireland, and because we there was such a
gap between podcasts, we're going to try and get another
one out the door.
Speaker 3: We're going to record one this.
Speaker 1: Weekend on a topic yet to be determined, and get
to another one out the door before we get on
that plane and get away.
Speaker 2: We're ready, We're so ready. We're ready.
Speaker 1: We're going to be not in the country while the
votes are being chatted.
Speaker 2: Crazy, which we're voting and then leaving and then leaving.
Speaker 3: All right, so much to discuss, but.
Speaker 1: Before we get into Agatha all along, just a side
note on another witchy topic. Cynthia Rivo.
Speaker 3: Yeah who last our.
Speaker 1: Last podcast, which was seemed like it was months ago.
Our last podcast, we talked about Cynthia Rivo's reaction to
a fan edit of a Wicked poster and how it
kind of blew up in her face and the press
surrounding it was pretty bad.
Speaker 2: Right right right. And it's interesting because I give her
credit for you know, apparently she gave an interview I
believe it was The Independent, I can't remember, and she
said that she wish she had asked a friend before
the session.
Speaker 1: Is yeah, she said she should have just vented to
her friends and then get online and make a big deal.
Speaker 3: Out of it, which you know, I thought was pretty good.
Speaker 1: I think probably that people behind the film were like,
you need to get out in front of us because
it's bad pr but I thought it was. It's rare
to see a star walk back that sort of commentary,
and she did, and I was like, all right, good
for her. I mean, she's got a film on the line,
she's got money on the line.
Speaker 2: Well still, the exact quote was I probably should have
called my friends. Yeah, and you know, it's so true.
And I mentioned that the last podcast. I said, you know,
that's the thing. We run to social media, you know,
as soon as we think about something, right, And you
shouldn't be that way, especially.
Speaker 1: If you are a public We've been saying out about
stars all along. It's not as good for you as
you think it is. You can control your narrative to
a certain extent, but the first time you lose control, right,
it's all on you. And that's you know, it's just
always the and especially when you just about to launch
launch a movie. I am sure that publicists were like,
what are you doing.
Speaker 2: It's the same thing with Paul Matsco and the whole
thing with thar Sharon and the interview that we're talking about.
Speaker 3: On the Graham Norton Show.
Speaker 2: Yeah again, man, you're about to, you know, step on
the red carpet with your movie Gladiator, and you're just
kind of like joking and talking about you know, women
and their cell phones and stuff like that. It's just
not right. I mean, be smart, not the time.
Speaker 3: Be fair.
Speaker 1: I don't think they were joking about women and their
cell phones. They just couldn't.
Speaker 3: They were.
Speaker 1: It was a bunch of men who simply couldn't understand
someone who would be in a very defensive position, right.
But and she came along and said, well, women have
to deal with that all the time. It's not that
they were making fun of women or they were. The
point of that whole exchange was they weren't thinking about
women at all.
Speaker 2: Well that's the thing. But my point is I'm glad
she said something.
Speaker 3: Oh no, it was a great moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a great moment.
Speaker 3: To the credit of.
Speaker 1: Those men, they were all chasing the immediately, like they
immediately realized, oh, okay, we really screwed that one up.
Speaker 2: It. I thought it was great and we need more
moments like that that, you know, someone says, someone explains,
you know, and and tells you that, you know, that's
not exactly how it happens, and at least not to us.
And anyway, I thought it was great. So but my
point is that it's just about to be on the
red carpet, you know, all the time now promoting his movie,
and and then you know, you can't have anything like that.
You just can't. The studios will freak out.
Speaker 3: Being and freaking out.
Speaker 1: Our cats right now are just they do not understand
why it's five in the morning and all the lights
are on, yelling into these sticks, because.
Speaker 2: What happens in the morning is that, you know, Meme
starts yelling at me and wants me up and to
feed her, and then she expects me to be on
my desk, so I'm not on my desk right now,
and she can't understand what's going very annoyed by the situation,
like why aren't you on your death you know, because
she sits right next to me and it's so key.
She stares at you, and tab is always you know,
walking around they you know, it's the morning routine, and
then they're there don't understand why it's not happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy in here right now. We said we
would talk about our because it's Halloween, we would talk
about our ghosts.
Speaker 3: God, I don't know why you hate when I mentioned
we have a ghost.
Speaker 2: Because I do not like the idea of having a ghost.
Speaker 3: We have a ghost.
Speaker 1: We live in a former industrial lawft. You know, it
was a manufacturing facility and I don't know, I'm not
even sure what used to get manufactured here, but the
whole neighborhood that we live in was all small scale manufacturing,
and it was things like you know, pins and you know,
zipper polls and all that sort of thing. And when
we first moved into this neighborhood, a lot of these
places still exist. There were a lot of these wholesale
manufacturers and like restaurants supply now they're kind of all
gentrified out.
Speaker 3: But our we're on the second floor of the building
and there are still holes in the floor from where
the machinery was bolted into the floor.
Speaker 2: It's really cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, out of that history.
Speaker 1: There's a shaft that was cut out of the floor
for where there used to be a big industrial cage
style elevator there, and that's no longer there, so it
has this cool feel to it, but it also has
this aged feel to it. And as I said to
Lorenzo years and years and years ago, I was like, wow,
if they were manufacturing stuff here in the in the
nineteenth century, somebody died here. People always died. There was
no workplace safety back then. Anyway, we've been in this
place for over a decade, well over a decade, and
there's just been incidents. There's been incidents all around, things
that go flying off the wall.
Speaker 3: And that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: I think think you will always need to take some
of this with a grain of salt because we live
with three cats, which means there's always little movements and
stuff happening, things get knocked over. And we also live
in an attached building, attached on both sides. So I'm
saying this because some of what I consider ghostly stuff
is that, first off, there's phantom smells, a lot of
phantom smells. You don't get it as much as I do,
but sometime at like two in the morning, I'll get
up or something and the place reeks of cooking, and
now it's possible. First off, we don't have a neighbor
on one side of us. It's an attached building, but
there's no tenant. The other side of us is a
single dwelling household. It's possible that person is cooking at
two o'clock in the morning, and it's possible that their
kitchen is on the second floor.
Speaker 3: I don't know the lay out of their house because
we don't actually like them.
Speaker 1: Okay, So for years I've been like, is she what
is she cooking?
Speaker 3: Is her kitchen next to our living room? Like I
don't get it?
Speaker 1: And then years and then after years of this, I
was like, you know what, I think this is like
a phantom smell thing.
Speaker 3: I really do.
Speaker 1: Granted, this was not a home, so they weren't doing
cooking in this building, so maybe I'm wrong, But that's
one of them. The big one that I have is footsteps,
and I mean footsteps when I'm alone in the in
this place. It happens all the time. Lorenzo and I
schedule our days so that we try and stagger our
gym our gym visit so that we're not you know.
That way, we get to spend some time away from
each other, and one of us gets to have the
place to themselves for an hour or two while the
other one is out. And it's always when you're not here.
I will be sitting at my desk and I will
think you're out in the kitchen fussing around or doing something.
And there have been times when I've called out and
said what are you doing and realized that I was alone.
I've had footsteps come right up to me where I was.
Speaker 3: I thought you were.
Speaker 1: Here, and I could hear this shuffling and moving and
actual creaking of footsteps, and I would realize that I
was alone, and the footsteps would I'd listen. I'd lean
in and listen, and I'm like, they're right. I can
hear them, like right next to my desk. Never once
in all the time I've lived here, have I ever.
Speaker 3: Been scared.
Speaker 1: I've never had a moment where I was scared or
anything like that. And I don't know what goess are.
I don't know if they're just like electromagnetic forms that
are you know, wave patterns that are stuck in a
certain place and repeat themselves and that sort of which
is what I tend to believe.
Speaker 3: Gohs are.
Speaker 2: I don't hear a thing, I don't see a thing.
Speaker 1: Thank God, you've had We've had stuff happen, You've had
stuff you check out.
Speaker 3: You don't want to deal with this.
Speaker 1: What about the wreath that flew off the walls several
times all the way across the room. It was a
Christmas wreath. Oh yeah, maybe we would find what Why
are you doing that? I don't know, because are you
afraid they're going to come for you to admit they exist?
Speaker 2: They don't talk to me, We should go.
Speaker 1: You are lying because you have had these experiences and
that you don't want to talk about them on the mic,
and you're making me sound like a looning.
Speaker 2: No, listen, Yeah, I mean it's possible. I'm not possible.
Speaker 1: How many times have things fallen over for no reason?
How many times have you called out and said.
Speaker 3: What was that?
Speaker 2: That is true?
Speaker 1: How many times that happens a lot, like literally on
a weekly basis. And I've again, I know we have cats,
and many many times there will be some noise or
shuffle or something, and I'll go and I'll find all
three cats and they're all asleep or there or in
some way clearly wasn't them. They're not in the area
where something fell over. So, yes, we had some little
energy pattern that comes in and focks things up. And
I this is why it never bothered me or scared me,
is because I'm not psychic or anything like that. I
don't even know if I believe in that, But I
have never felt that there.
Speaker 3: Was a literal.
Speaker 1: Presence, like that there was a mind behind, like we
were being watched or something, or that there was something
we could interact with. It feels like an energy pattern
that keeps repeating. Interesting to me anyway, that's our ghost
story and our witch story. And I think this concludes
now we're going to get into the Agatha all a long.
Speaker 2: Stiff Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, so good.
Speaker 1: We haven't talked about it because I am still turning
over that phenomenon in my head and there are parts
about it that I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, hm, really, that's that's what you decided to deal Huh.
Speaker 2: Yes, I have to say the us.
Speaker 3: I don't want to.
Speaker 1: Let's start with right, Yeah, yeah, let's because there's three
episodes we miss yeah, we missed last week doing and
it was the best episode of the series, the Patty
Lapone episode. And I just want to spend a moment
in glut because most of my theories were correct.
Speaker 3: Turned out to be correct in the law run.
Speaker 1: I said a couple of weeks ago that it was
not that this was some major thing that I figured out.
Everybody figured this out, that Lilia was bouncing through time
and she was experiencing her timeline out of order. And
I said, back then, I said, all these little interjections,
there's going to be an episode near the end of
the series where we get to see what they add
all these interjections up, and they did that. I also
said that I thought Rio was death, that she was
the embodiment of death. Then yes, I will conflect about that.
So Patty Lapone's episode.
Speaker 2: You know, fantastic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's when the show really really clicked as a
quality production where they were telling real stories of women
and the Those stories were engrossing and interesting, and it really.
Speaker 3: Showed you what the show could be, what a show
like this could be.
Speaker 1: And I all that week after that episode aired, when
I thought we were going to be doing a podcast
about it, I was gathering my thoughts and I was thinking,
you know, you just don't see Marvel doing You don't
expect Marvel to do a story like this. Someone like WandaVision,
which wound up being a story. Despite all the pyrotechnics
and the special effects and the battles and the sky
and the robots and the witches and everything, it was
still a basic story about grief, about the processing of grief.
And I thought I was I loved the show for
that because and I love Agatha for what it did
with this Patty the Opponent episode, because as a longtime
comic nerd who knows these characters, who knows their histories
and their stories and everything and how they unfolded over decades,
it's so grad find to see people come along and
dig into this genre and into these characters and pull
out something new. It wasn't another superhero battle. It wasn't
another you know it was in Turn in WandaVision and
again in Agada. All along it was about something they tried
to make a story about, something they tried to pull
characters up out of, Like the Marvel sidelines. All of
those characters, all of them are in the comics. Patty
Lapones and Sashiro z Amadas and and and you know,
Aubrey Plaza. All those characters are in the comics Chris.
They're all like women in bikinis in the comics. Yeah,
I mean Lily in the comics is yeah, oh my god.
Of course, old women in comic.
Speaker 3: Books, of course.
Speaker 1: Uh So, I thought it was great that they were
pulling this story out. It was also, I think one
of the best and most original stories of Witchcraft I've
ever seen, you know, the way she was bouncing through
time and everything. What really made that episode gorgeous was
the interludes with her I want to say, her grandmother,
but she never said as she said.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that woman. I could watch her all.
She was good. She was so good.
Speaker 1: She's when she's when Patty the Pone says, I'm a
forgotten woman, and she said, then remember yourself.
Speaker 3: It was so I mean, the show did this thing.
Speaker 1: They really tried to straddle a line in depicting Witchcraft
because they wanted to clearly make, you know, pay homage
to the idea that there was a sisterhood there, that
that that is about women gaining power in a patriarchal society,
but it's also about like, you know, doing bad things
and evil things and not actually being a particularly nice
pat Yeah. I mean, they straddled that line fairly well,
but with Lily's character, it was I think she might
have been the most sympathetic character. I mean, not that
Alice wasn't sympathetic, but.
Speaker 2: There's I love all of them. I will talk about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a story about a woman at the
end of her life and facing that she was at
the end of her life, and you needed the woman
of age to play that character, and so Patty Lupo
and brought, you know, seventy plus years of experience and
age to that role. So in the moment where she
said it's happening more frequently in her voice catches because
she knows it means she's going to die. It was
just so meaningful and so beautiful and so well done.
Speaker 2: She did a fantastic job. As I was reading on
the internet, people were saying that it's so great to
see Patty doing something different because you're always expecting her
to do musicals and singing and all that. And it
was just something so dramatic and touching, as you said,
about aging and about dying, and it was just beautiful. Everything,
the cinematography when she's talking to her master as a
little girl, everything about it was just so poetic, so beautiful,
and that's what I love about this show. Because this
show can go from very like, I don't know, cartoonish,
very childish like and then some moments that you know,
just make they make you think, and then they're just beautiful,
beautifully done. Yeah. Loved it, loved it, the story about
her going back and the master I could. We watched
it like.
Speaker 3: What I watched it probably like four times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I watched it like two or three times, and
every time I'm not just mesmerized by that old lady talking,
which is beautiful. It's just beautiful.
Speaker 1: The idea of when you think of and I remember
thinking this, I was like, God, I never never would
have thought of if I was doing a story about
witches making one of them a Sicilian Renaissance, yeah, which
like that's not the first image that comes to mind.
And yet that scene with the Meister, I was like,
I want to know this woman, I want to know
her coven, I want to know what it was like
to be a witch in the Renaissance in Italy. Like,
and that's good storytelling because it left you wanting so much, and.
Speaker 2: Her reactions were so real and amazing when she says, oh, you're.
Speaker 3: Bad, you're visiting, you're visiting. Yeah, yeah, my.
Speaker 2: God, it was just so cool. Yeah, and she's so
cool and collected, and she's just there like, oh okay,
and what does that mean? I mean, just guiding her like.
Speaker 3: A mentor does yes.
Speaker 1: Yes, there's some question in the end, because the final
scene is her running up to her meister for her
first lesson. There's some question as to whether or not
Lilya's life came full circle and that was Lilya returning
to that moment at her moment of death, or whether
we were just seeing the beginning of the process. I
tend to think we were seeing the beginning.
Speaker 3: Of the process.
Speaker 2: That's what I got.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that girl sitting at the opposite end
of the table was not the older Lilia was not there.
That was her on her first day, learning her first match.
Speaker 2: I got the same. Ye.
Speaker 1: People wanted it to be a little bit more complicated.
People wanted it to be that she wasn't dead, which
leads let's talk about this the show's relationship with death.
The show runner Jack Shafer has said, because she was asked,
you know, in lead up to the finale, whether any
of these characters were going to stay dead, because it's Marvel,
nobody stays that it's it's magic, so you don't have
to keep them dead, and she said, no, they're dead.
Speaker 3: This is a show about death.
Speaker 1: And that's hard because the finale was actually a little
hard to take.
Speaker 3: But I.
Speaker 1: Appreciate that they had the courage of their convictions. I mean,
I was doing some you know, last minute research this
morning and scrolling through Twitter looking for reviews and stuff,
and they had the Agatha all along poster kept popping
keeps popping up on our timeline, and I'm like, well,
it kind of makes me sad now because literally everybody
in the poster except for two characters are.
Speaker 3: They all died.
Speaker 1: That's a high body count for a Marvel Disney show.
Speaker 2: Right, especially because Marvel is always about legacy and bringing
them back and all that stuff. I guess they're not
coming back on.
Speaker 1: This, And you know, you just you just don't expect
to see a lot of debt characters die in a
Marvel Disney show. It hasn't really happened before. Named characters
more or less protagonist characters, and like four of them
were killed off, including the lead character. So I thought
it was bold, but on some levels, the story left
me very sad, and I guess it's supposed to do that,
And to that, I would say, you know what, that's again,
that's really bold that you you got a check from Marvel,
you know, and a slot on Disney Plus, and you said,
I'm gonna tell a sad story that's going to make
people feel bad, right, and had the courage to actually
do that. Jack Shaffer's on another level when it comes
to Marvel stuff. I said that WandaVision was before Agatha
all Along. I said, WandaVision was the best thing Marvel
ever did, the highest quality right thing they ever ever did,
getting in Avengers and Infinity.
Speaker 3: For you know, Civil War, all of that.
Speaker 1: It was just it was human, It was emotional. It
was also fantastical and imaginative. It had a theme, it
had a point, and then the story ended somewhat definitively.
But then, of course they it being Marvel, they went
off and did a whole movie. But Agatha all Along
it's somewhat similar in you can see a lot of
the same pattern in Agatha all Along. I said in
the beginning of WandaVision when we were reviewing it, that
those first couple of episodes were very clever, but also
a little hard to sit through because the conceit of
being stuck inside a sitcom without explaining it to the
viewer had worn thin by like the end of the
second episode. Similarly, we said in the beginning in the
first episode, all of that Agnes of Westview, where.
Speaker 3: She thought she was a cop, it went on too long.
Speaker 1: It was the same thing where you were stuck in
a scenario and you were like, Okay, could you explain
what is going on here? Similar problem, similar problem to
the finale is both finales is that you know, WandaVision
turned into this big superhero battle in the sky, which
was a big letdown from the you know, five episodes
of like human emotion that preceded it and.
Speaker 3: Agatha all along.
Speaker 1: And it did end with a sort of battle, but
not really between Rio and Agatha. It was more of
a surrender. It just felt like the show had was
taking itself in a direction that didn't feel like where
it had been. It had been a story about women,
so many women women's stories all coming together, you know,
this coven, and you got Alice's story about lifting her curse,
and Lily's story about accepting her own death, and and
Agatha's story about you know, losing her child and everything.
And in the end, it was about the teenage boy, right,
who's going to get his own who's probably going to
be in a Marvel movie or something like that. All
the other women except for one, died and their stories
mattered less than all right, let's go find your brother.
Speaker 2: I know that's probably why they said yes to the project,
because they knew at the end, you know, well that's true. Yeah,
it was going to be about a boy.
Speaker 1: All right, before we jump into the finale, why don't
we take a short break where back and now we're
going to get back into Agatha. So final two episodes?
What did you think?
Speaker 2: I actually thought it was eight and nine, right, I
thought the episode eight was actually more exciting than episode nine.
I don't know, maybe the order there, I don't know.
Speaker 3: He just felt like they made some unusual creative deossion. Yeah,
I mean there not.
Speaker 2: That I didn't appreciate both and the second one the finale,
but it was a little slow after you had such
an emotional episode before that. But they were both great,
and we'll talk about they executed.
Speaker 1: Some really good twists, one of which I actually did
float as a possibility during one of our talks earlier
in the season where I said, you know, Wanda created
this whole fake reality, how do we know the road
is actually real? And to be honest, I won't pat
myself on the back too much for that because that
was something I tossed out and.
Speaker 3: I really did.
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know about that and never
went back to it. So when they revealed, I.
Speaker 3: Was like, holy shit, I was actually right on that.
Speaker 2: I was not expecting that at all.
Speaker 1: It does explain an awful lot. Explains number one, why
the road looked so fake. Everything looked everything looked really fake.
And I got to say that moment where Rio took
a knife out and sliced the backdrop to walk through it,
I was like, Oh, that's really freaking clever.
Speaker 3: That's just clever. They're admitting that this isn't real. Just so.
Speaker 1: And the other thing I want to note is that
I think it was subtle, but you got to go
back and watch it in the first episode or the
second episode. Missus Hart says or Sharon says that as
a member of the Western Historical Society, she said, the
only thing that should be down here is our abandoned
mass transit system, and in the Lilia episode they stumbled
upon a subway station. So and then at the end
of the Seat series we see jensasher Zamana the only
one who really aside from Joe Locke's character, the only
one who survived. She actually climbs up out of the ground.
So they were all underground. And I think all this
was him. The whole Witch's Road was him. He transformed
a bunch of subway stations.
Speaker 3: That's basically what that was.
Speaker 2: I was actually surprised. I was not expecting that everything
was created by him. And then when they explain every
item in his room that his imagination, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, yeah, I also want to say that not to
This isn't about patting myself on the back. It's about
the show being consistent with its influences and everything. One
of the things I said a couple of weeks ago
was that it reminded me of Buffy. It had a
very sort of Buffy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, one of the things in his room was a
poster from the most famous Buffy episode, once More with Feelings.
So again I feel all that was very deliberate and
I feel like I was picking up on it. But
that was a surprise. But the even bigger surprise, which
was revealed in the finale, was that I got the
made up the Witches Road completely.
Speaker 3: It was all made up. There was no witch is.
Speaker 1: This song and all, and she and her her son
made up the song and she used it to lure
unsuspecting which is, you know, into a scenario where they
all blasted her and she wound up killing them all.
Speaker 3: It's a bold choice.
Speaker 1: I I'm afraid some of the stuff with Agatha is
a little hard to parse. I think they tried to
do too many things with Agatha at the end. I think,
you know, you tried to turn her into this wise
sidekick for the for the teenage boy, you know, this
like Yoda like figure who was going to follow him
around and teach him or whatever. But then you just
you spent an entire episode showing her like it was weird.
I didn't feel they paid her off all that well.
All season long, we were given hints that Agatha had
some deep pain in her life and that the stories
about her being an evil witch were misunderstandings. We were
we were fed this over and over and over again.
But then in the final episode we find out that
she's she spent centuries killing hundreds and hundreds of witches
for her own purposes, which makes her relentless just unremittingly evil.
She is a bad character. She killed hundreds and hundreds
of women. And it's weird they didn't want to unpack
this after so many episodes of I Needed You, my Coven,
my Sister and the Craft and all these stories. Your
lead character didn't believe in any of that, and she
was all about killing her felt witches. So there was
a tension in the in the and I just feel
like they didn't unpack that very well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. Why when she says, well, I was
ready to kill them all the first days.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't care.
Speaker 1: It's not like I was holding out hope, the hopes
at Agatha was going to turn out to be a
nice person. I actually like that they made her a
bad witch. But I think they were just trying to
have it both ways. Like you, you tried to ca
her as this all through this story, as this sort
of anti hero figure, you know, misunderstood anti hero figure,
and then at the end you find out, well, no,
she was a liar and she killed.
Speaker 3: Hundreds of procles, So no, she's not an anti hero.
Speaker 2: I thought her story with her son and all that
was really nice and well done. A little anti climactic, yeah,
I agree, especially after we saw the episode eight with
all the action and you know, emotion, But I didn't
like it, and it was it was interesting. I really
loved her her interaction with real and with death and everything.
I agree when she's I mean, I was really touched
when she said, Okay, I'll give you time. I'll give
you some time with the son. The whole thing with
the son, So I really liked that. I thought it
was clever because then she has to live with her
son and has no idea when he's going to be
taking away from her.
Speaker 1: And the scene where death takes him was actually very
yeah hutching, because you see they made a point of
showing death coming for Lilia and comment for Alice, and
she's frightening in those scenes. She's death, and when she
came for uh Nicky, she didn't have her her death
mask on. She just looked like a pretty lady in
a green dress. And I just thought that was very
tough in its own way, very touching.
Speaker 2: I thought some choices were very clever because I was
really emote. I mean, I'm I always really touched by
the whole thing. And I liked that they showed her
Rio taking him, and then very little about her dealing
with her son death, you know, like you know, there's
not a lot of us screaming and creat right right, right,
It's just a little bit of that. And they moved
the camera and I really liked that because I'm like,
all right, that's all I need.
Speaker 3: That's intense.
Speaker 2: For that, that's intense already. I really liked it. I
thought it was interesting. Reu was great. I felt that.
Speaker 3: I still haven't unpacked it.
Speaker 1: It's been less than twelve hours since I watched it,
and I never got a chance to watch it a
second time before doing this podcast, and that's rare for me.
Speaker 3: I usually like bought something a lot.
Speaker 1: But I do feel like Rio and Agatha's relationship was
not as unpacked as well as it could be.
Speaker 3: Now. I get that the it was like a it
was a take on the I.
Speaker 1: Was sort of like a classic toxic relationship to people
who are crazy for each other, crazy about each other,
but also constantly at each other's throats.
Speaker 3: But I really.
Speaker 1: Couldn't connect some of the like that scene at the
end and in Agatha's backyard where Rio came for her
and she was all scary and the sky turned all
green and everything, and it turned into this battle royale.
Do you hate each other or do you love? And
I get it, I mean I get there are relationships.
It's one of those love hate relationships. But I just
why does Rio hate Agatha? I get why Agatha hates Rio.
She killed she took her son, but why does Rio
hate Agatha.
Speaker 3: She might be.
Speaker 1: Hurt by Agatha for turning her back on her or whatever,
but Rio was like vengeance, like she was going after
And I'm like, I don't get this.
Speaker 2: Why Yeah, especially because when she relied on Agata were
so many bodies for so many deaths.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just don't understand what that turn was at
the end. I might have to watch it again to
figure it out. And I get it. It's like, you know,
toxic lesbian relationship. I think that they were trying to
sort of do a riff on that, but I just
didn't I didn't get it. I I'm like, what is
whereyo mad at?
Speaker 2: What? You know?
Speaker 3: I just I don't know.
Speaker 1: It was a battle royale that was a great scene
and that kiss at the end, I mean, well, you know,
that was one big queer lady kiss right in the
middle of Disney Plus and I all credit to them,
all credit to them. I'm happy to see it. But
then they did a full on kill your gaze trope,
which a lot of queer women who like fantasy have
seen too many queer lady characters get killed over the years.
And the reaction online to this was not good. Really, no,
it wasn't good. I mean, the show was always leading
towards that. I guess I didn't I honestly didn't expect
Agatha to be dead at the end of season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and then now she's a ghost. It
was a little weird.
Speaker 1: That is something in the comics. There was a time
when Agatha was dead and she was the Scarlet Witch's mentor,
and she would be up here as a ghost.
Speaker 3: But she's not dead anymore. She's a real she's alive again.
Speaker 2: So maybe she won't be dead next season.
Speaker 1: And that's the other thing is that I mentioned this
in the past that Agatha, typically in the comics for many,
many years, for most of her history, was depicted as
a crone.
Speaker 3: She was an old old woman.
Speaker 1: She wore like a Victorian dress with a little cameo
which she had white hair and a bun. And that
final look for Agatha was basically a wink to the fans,
very very close to how she looked when she was
an old woman in the comics. And I just want
to say that the final episode was called mother Maiden Crone,
and Agatha was all three oh, because it dealt with
her motherhood, it dealt with her time as a young woman,
and then at the interesting which was actually pretty clever.
Speaker 2: No, what I was going to say is that I'm
not a comic book fan, and what I find interesting
about comic books is that because people have been reading
them for a long time, reading that character for a
long time, they get the story changes, their personality changes,
and all that stuff changes.
Speaker 3: But different writers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I don't know if that translates
well to a series or a movie. You know what
I mean? I do.
Speaker 1: I know exactly what you mean. That can make those
sort of your characters can shift and change and be
in consistent over time. It's sort of like I always
like in classic comic book storytelling is exactly almost exactly
the same as soap opera storytelling, which it's it's you.
Speaker 2: Know, story dead. That's awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I mean it's a story that doesn't end.
It goes on every month, your character, it continues, there's subplots,
and then characters in the background are suddenly in the foreground.
It's just like a soap opera. But that means there's
a lot of it. And just like soap opera characters,
there's a lot of inconsistency when you look at a
characters publishing history. When you look at like something like
Susan Lunci's character and all my Children, and you run
down everything that character went through in like forty years
of being on tell, it's a ridiculous multiple person Yeah,
it's a ridiculous It's the same thing with comic books
and when Marvel makes these and same thing with DC
when when these companies make these movies, they're pulling all
sorts of elements from forty to seventy to eighty years
a comic book, and so it's a it's largely what
you see on screen. Even the most successful Marvel heroes,
even like Chris Evans as Captain America or whatever, it's
a pastiche of eighty years of comic book stories. They
sort of blend it all together. They throw out the
stuff that doesn't work.
Speaker 2: So that's what I mean. I mean, I understand why
they turn her into a ghost. Maybe to you know,
please defends blah blah blah. But maybe we didn't need that,
you know.
Speaker 1: I swear, I think much in the same way as
Agatha's popularity caught them off guard when Wanda is. They
did not expect Agaa to be this breakout character. There
was never a plan to give her her own show.
And then she became this breakout character. Everybody loved her,
and they wound up giving a show. And I had
to say, Agatha Harkness is a side character. She has
always been a side character in Marvelus. She never had
her own books. She's never been a superhero, she's never
been on a superhero team. So to give a character
like that their own show was it was purely fueled
by the fandom. There was never a plan to give
Katherine Haun her own show. That character became really popular,
they gave her her own show, And I still think,
I'm like, I don't think they understood that the fans
were going to fall in love with all of these characters.
I mean I went into the finale thinking still thinking
that maybe they weren't going to stay dead, that maybe
Lilia and Alice were going to be alive at the
end of it.
Speaker 3: And I.
Speaker 1: This is why I regret that we couldn't record a
podcast after the Patti Lapone episode, because I would have
said this, I would have watched the second season of
the show. If this season ended with all of them
alive and still stuck on the Witch's Road, I would
have said, yeah, give me a second season on the
Witch's Road, just putting them through trials. This is fun.
These characters are fun to watch. They're on a really
interesting quest, like you know, witches without power trying to
seek power. It was such a great hook that I'm
sorry that they ended. And that's I can't believe I'm
saying that, because my major complaint about almost all of
Latter Day Marvel is that the stories never end. They
all lead into something else. And here was a story
that had pretty much a definitive ending. It's clear that
Billy's story isn't done, but Billy wasn't the lead character,
despite them spending so much time on him. I got
the story for all intents and purposes can be closed
off at this point and we can say, well, that
was a complete story told, And on that level, it's like, well,
I admire that, and I appreciate that someone got a
Marvel check and said, yeah, but I'm going to write
a story with an right, I'm not leading into the
next Avengers film or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting as a creative person, I get if
you were the creator of the show, but as the viewer,
as something.
Speaker 3: I'm disappointed you wanted more.
Speaker 2: I mean, like moments like Pattle Lupun's moment, moment, you know,
like that you go back and I would love that.
If it was just a show up of them bouncing
around and doing going.
Speaker 1: On challenges, trying to get the held off that road,
that would have been a great series.
Speaker 2: A couple of seasons of that. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I guess Jack Shaper figured you get what you get
from Disney, and you should just try and tell a
complete story. It's true because you're probably not going to
get a second.
Speaker 2: Quite sure that to do would she did? She had
to agree to you, I know something. Yeah that at
the end, in the end, it was all, well wait.
Speaker 3: She it was clear that she was.
Speaker 1: She was being told to set up Wigan, which is
Billy Maximov's character.
Speaker 3: They are in the comics.
Speaker 1: There was a team called the Young Avengers, and I
feel like a lot of bladder day Marvel is pushing itself.
There is eventually going to be a Young Avengers, because
there's him, There's Kamala Khan, who's Miss Marvel. There's Harley
Steinfeld's character, who I guess they're calling her Hawkeye. It's
all of these next generation people and they'll eventually all
be together in it, and they'll be in a movie together.
There's going They're gonna find Tommy the you know, Billy's
brother at some point, and he in the comics is
a Speeds He can you know speeds there like his uncle. So, yeah, Wanda,
I mean Agatha all along, at least partially, she was
given Jack Shafer was given the brief you have to
set up Wickan because he's going to be something going forward.
You tell your story, but it's but it has to
end a certain one with the boy.
Speaker 3: I just I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't I I I wish they hadn't. I I
think there's something disappointing about Marvel doing a full on,
sort of toxic queer romance story and then kill all
you know, kill. It's just we've all seen so many
queer characters die. We've all seen so many queer characters
finally kiss on screen, and then one of them gets killed.
Speaker 3: You know, it's such a trope that I was.
Speaker 1: I was a little disappointed in seeing it. On the
other hand, like I said, I admire that they made
a show about death and they stuck to it. They
stuck to the theme death is real, death is permanent,
Death is hard, but it feels like it.
Speaker 2: Is the price you have to pay for being gay,
for being queer. Well, I mean, it's like in the
fifties when when you killed someone and then you had
to go to jail or right or or die. Feels
the same.
Speaker 1: I know that wasn't the thinking behind it. I know
it was more about giving these characters complexity and and
you know, having an antagonistic relationship. But it sucked watching
Rio kill Agatha. It actually did I get it, but
I was like, okay, whatever, Oh Seshier's Amada, Oh my god,
I want to see that's a classic. That's a perfect
example of Yeah, I don't know what you were thinking there,
Like you gave her such a great moment.
Speaker 3: But you never followed through.
Speaker 1: And Lily got a great moment, and Alice got a
great moment, and she that scene where she unbinds herself
was very She did a great job. It was very powerful.
I'm fairly certain that the filmmakers were aware that this
scene occurring between a black woman and a white woman
had all sorts of connotations to it, where they were
bound right, and the white woman was the one responsible
for the black woman's binding, and the black woman freed
herself by declaring to the white woman that she had no.
Speaker 3: Power over her.
Speaker 1: I feel that that was fairly deliberate, but they didn't
linger on it too much because it's Marvel Disney. They're
not gonna know, They're not gonna make this about slavery.
They're not gonna well, but I did think Seshier did
a great job in that scene. Even though she wasn't
given much to do, she lent it so much weight
and it felt like an emotional release when she got
her powers back. And I again, I wish I had
said this because I was thinking all along during especially
once Billy's powers manifested and they were blue. Scarlett which's
powers were manifested is red, Wanda's, I mean Agatha's powers
manifested is purple. And the whole time, I was like,
I bet you when when Jen gets her powers back,
it's going to be pink. And it was because she
was wearing that pink dress and it was I was.
Speaker 2: Like, oh, I should have had I have to say
Sashier was absolutely she was drawnny, lightful. Yeah, I mean
she was so her lines were so funny, the way
she delivered everything. She was great. And I feel like
you said they didn't know what to do with all
these incredible women.
Speaker 1: I just think they the actresses came along and turned
your characters into so much more than what the script
was offering that it h It's kind of a shame.
I wish they had, you know, said at the last second,
you know, let's go for a second season. You guys
are great together, but they didn't.
Speaker 3: Whatever.
Speaker 1: I think there's some I haven't really unpacked what's going
on in the fandom, but I feel like there's a
mixed reaction to this hour.
Speaker 2: I'm sure the whole show people are mixed about it.
I loved everything I loved it.
Speaker 1: I just I'm a little down on how it ended,
not just because everybody died. I would have been fine
with Agatha dying, because you know, they they pretty much
made it clear that she had some penance that she
had to go through. She did a lot of bad things.
But I don't know, it's weird because she was clearly
a really bad character, did a lot of terrible things.
And yeah, she died, but she also got sort of
a happy ending. And we don't really see Lilia or
Alice or missus Hart getting a hat.
Speaker 2: They just died, right, Yeah, the whole growth thing, it's
a little unbalanced. It feels a little hop out Disney
to me. The Little Disney. I just didn't Yeah, I'm
still trying to unpack it.
Speaker 1: But I I loved I loved Agatha all along. I
loved it more than I thought I was going to.
I mean somewhere at about well probably the Patty lapone
episode where I was like, Wow, this is as good
or better than Wanda Vision, and I did not expect
that to be the case.
Speaker 2: I actually want to watch the whole thing again.
Speaker 1: Well I did last night. I did go and watch
some of those beginning scenes again with Billy and Agatha
where he says, take me to the road and she says,
the road is a myth, and he said that's a
lot because I'm like, I need to see the scene
again because she knows the road is a myth. Oh,
and the scene where they sing the song and the
portal opens up in Agatha's basement. I watched that again
because clearly she never expected that to happen. Road runs over,
and if you watch it, it's very much in her
performance that she does not understand and what the hell's happening?
It throws the whole series into you know, question, not
into question, but she had I mean when Billy manifested
his powers and she said she sort of suspected, but
she didn't know until he But that's not actually correct.
I mean he created the road, right, she had to
know from the minute that happened.
Speaker 3: That okay, I mean she had to know.
Speaker 2: But if you go back, and I mean and see
the beginning again, you know, so many times she jokes
about that, Oh, sure, go ahead, do your thing, you know,
kind of like she knows she plays along and yeah,
the same thing with real You're like, sure, you want
to be a calm.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, let's talk about your case.
Speaker 2: I know, it's just great, great. I mean so you
kind of if you go back, you can see you know, yeah,
you can see it happening. But still I was not
expecting that the whole thing that's created by him. I mean,
it was just crazy to me.
Speaker 1: I have, you know, in the back of my mind,
I wondered about it, and especially because it was so
fake looking. But I did not expect to find out
that she made it up, that Agatha made the whole
road up, that she made the song up and everything
it does. There was certain few things into like she
argued with Jen about what the lyrics of the song
were much much earlier, and I have to go back
because she wrote the song, like you know, I have
to go back and see if she was right, if
the lyrics that she was quoting to Jen were the
original lyrics to the song, something about coven two or
something like that, which would have referred to her and
her son.
Speaker 3: They were a coven of two.
Speaker 1: So I think the show was really good about planting
all of this stuff and then picking up on it.
And I don't feel like there's any thread that hasn't
I think there are things that weren't developed as well.
For instance, the Agatha and relationship Fritz all. We never
saw them meet, we never saw them in love. We
only saw them confronting each other about her child and
about when she was going to take her child. But
in terms of their history, we never saw it and
they and I did feel like that that entire last
episode was turned over to Agatha's history, like we were
traveling through time with Agatha, which was great.
Speaker 3: It was a nice chant.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, there, really there's a costume budget here.
They've built a whole colonial town. But yeah, I don't know.
I think they they they could have spent at least
some of that final episode detailing how these two beings met,
how they fell in love, how does that even work?
Speaker 3: How do you have a relationship with death?
Speaker 2: So I agree, I agree, And like I said, episode
eight was so emotional and explosive and all that, and
then episode nine it slows down on launch yebout her
and her kid, and I don't think, fine, I'll watch it.
It's because it's important. It is her story. We're going
to find out right what happened to her and and
so on. But it was just a little of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, little disappointing, especially since Nicholas Scratch in the comics
is a full blown character.
Speaker 3: It was actually a villain, And I mean maybe that's
still the case. We don't know. We don't know, Like
Nikki died, but that doesn't mean he right right right.
Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to see any of these characters,
be perfectly honest, I really don't think really they're not
bringing this show. But I would be very surprised if
they brought this show back. Although apparently the ratings were
really good and I know it was the cheapest show
they ever produced, and oh yeah, that actually goes into
you know, deciding whether to renew a show, is that
they produced a ratings blockbuster on a budget, and that's
you know, personally, I think you'd have to do a
lot of narrative fuckery to try and get all these
characters alive and back for another season of this show.
So I think it probably would be disappointing.
Speaker 3: What I really want is for.
Speaker 1: Marvel to give Jack Shaeffer, the show runner, a check
and free ring to go do something else. She has
nothing lined up with them. She just recently said they
need to give that woman a movie.
Speaker 3: They need to give that.
Speaker 1: Like, there's a whole section of Marvel which is all
magic characters. They should just hand it over to her.
She's really good at this world. She's really good at women,
at telling stories of women within this fantastical world. Right,
give her a Scarlet Witch movie. I mean, everyone wants
the Scarlet Witch to come back. It wouldn't be hard
to bring her back. And yeah, Jack Shafer knows what
she's doing with these characters. I just think they're silly
not to hand her something.
Speaker 2: I enjoyed the whole thing, and like I said, I'm
not a comic book fan, not even a Witch fan
that much, and enjoyed it so much that I want
to watch it again. It was really really good, beautifully done,
you know, just yeah, very intelligent, very clever, very funny,
and all the women in it and Joe did a
fantastic job.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to rush you, but the Jackhammers are going
to start in about fifteen minutes, so we're going to
take a real quick break and then we're going to
come back and talk about disclaimer.
Speaker 3: We're back.
Speaker 1: Just wrapped up our a gota all A long discussion,
loved it. Sorry to see it end, but kind of
don't think a return would be in the best interest.
We'll see Disclaimer. We've been talking about disclaimer all along
since at first debut the k Blanchette Alfonso Quirne limited
series about wealthy people with extravagant problems, and I've been
keeping it, you know, taking it with a grain of
salt the whole time. I'm like, okay, you know, I'll
just it's about the pretty houses and the dresses and
watching terrible people get their come up and so or whatever.
I knew, or at least I strongly felt it was
going to take a bad turn, and boy did it
ever with this episode. I just found this episode painful
to sit through. It was I didn't watch it a
second time. It was such a slog everything about it.
I mean, at one point a character says, you are
so canceled, Catherine, and I'm like, no, what, No, I.
Speaker 3: Know, nobody talks, nobody talks like this. The whole thing.
Speaker 1: Felt like a story about social media that was written
by an eighty year old who's never ever been on social.
Speaker 2: What I hated about this these this episode, it's because
it felt like the creator just uh, expanding, stretching this character,
these characters to you know, to tell get this overweight. Yeah,
it was just they it just didn't feel real. And
and and I don't understand. I stood, don't understand why
all these characters are Are I reacting based on what
they read in a freaking book? Man? I mean everything,
it's based on the book that woman wrote. Nobody spends
any time questioning what they read or even ask her.
Speaker 1: I think there's a point there that they're trying to make,
which is that the relationships in her life were not
very deep and these people secretly didn't think very much
of her, including her husband, her son, and her coworkers.
Like I feel like you could do a story about
society turning on a woman very quickly, you know, and whatever,
But this isn't that story because everyone acted like such
a cardoon character.
Speaker 2: The scene in her office, my god, it was so.
Speaker 3: Badly written, badly acted, badly directed.
Speaker 2: The thing is.
Speaker 1: That's the scene where the guy said you are so canceled, Catherine.
I was like, Jesus Christ, how did that write?
Speaker 2: And the screen the way her assistant talked to her.
Speaker 1: Suddenly her assistant hates her, and she keeps telling the
guy in her office to stop touching her, and he
won't stop touching her, and that's when she reacts and
she actually sort of, you know, kind of slaps him,
and oh, the whole office and everyone has their phones out.
I'm like, yeah, but he was touching her right right
right like that. That is an hr violation right there.
He was grabbing her several times after she said stop
touching me. And I feel stupid even unpacking it. In
the whole thing so dumb.
Speaker 2: And if you watch the scene again, in the beginning,
he's yelling at her and saying, well this and that,
you cancel bub blah blah. And then when she walks away,
he's like, wait, wait, wait, do you need help? Do
you want to tell it's it's nothing about nobody else.
Speaker 1: None of this made any sort of emotional sense, Like
everybody in the office had their phones out and was
recording her, and it was on the internet by the
time she was on the bus riding. Oh that's a
massive hr B.
Speaker 2: And why is she taking a bus? Why is she
taking a boat? The husband has a car, why doesn't
she have a car? The whole thing, like she she's
walking like a homeless person, because that's what she's supposed
to be. Now you know this horrible to everything? Yeah, yeah,
horrible woman who lost everything. She doesn't even have a car,
she has to walk on the street and take the bus.
Speaker 1: I don't even know, not to sound callous, but I'm
also like, what is what is the crime she was
supposed to have committed? She she had a fling and
the guy drowned, and what what is the big shocking
you are so canceled, Catherine thing, Like what?
Speaker 2: And the thing that bothers me most is that all
these reactions and decisions are are based on the book
The Woman Route, you know, like.
Speaker 1: Which, okay, this is the other thing that where the
story just falls apart from me. Is Kevin Klein. Is
this mastermind, just absolute man, just completely destroyed that son
in the space of twenty four hours. Every single thing
he has done, he has pulled off with a plum,
completely destroying this woman's life, even though he's some cranky, old,
depressed man. And this book is apparently so good that
they're putting it in the windows of bookstores and everything,
Like all of this hinges on leslie Manveld being this
inc redibly powerful, good writer, even though she's never written before,
and she was depressed and crazy at the time she
wrote the book, and her husband being this met and.
Speaker 3: I'm like, what is that? These cads? This doesn't make
any goddamnit sense.
Speaker 2: The only thing she had to based on photograph some photographs.
I mean, the son didn't come back to tell her anything.
Speaker 3: Right, everybody should be unpacking that, but nobody is.
Speaker 2: Nobody's nobody's and Katherine keeps saying, well, let me explain,
and nobody wants to listen.
Speaker 1: Which, you know, I actually do feel that, Mike, I'm
correct about the assumption that she was probably raped.
Speaker 2: Something happened.
Speaker 3: Actually, if that.
Speaker 1: Is the case, I'm going to be really annoyed with
this whole story because all she had to do at
any point in this story is scream out I was raped,
and that would end the entire story.
Speaker 3: But oh, let me just explain. Oh you've said enough, Catherine,
You're so canceled, Kat like, what the hell?
Speaker 2: No, no, no.
Speaker 1: And the thing with the son, I get it. He's
a very depressed kid. He clearly has some substance abuse issues,
and his parents have neglected him his whole life. But
he gets into one online conversation with a stranger, and
all day he spirals into like this, No, I'm sorry,
it was dumb. The whole thing was done, just the
scenes of him chatting, yes, and where I'm supposed to be.
This seventy five year old man who has never been
on social media is able to convincingly portray a nineteen
year old to a twenty five year old on no, no, no,
everything about this and that thing.
Speaker 2: Needs to be blunt. To be honest, the kid is
an asshole in a way.
Speaker 3: He is an asshole, and the husband's an asshole.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but my point is that, you know, if he
was to act like like an asshole, like a teenager,
he would have just like laughed at the whole thing,
you know, talking right to the guy, talking to the
old man, I mean.
Speaker 3: Like yeah, okay, thinking that he was going to rea
and at.
Speaker 2: Some point he was like all right, dude, whatever he died. Yeah,
and then yeah, you know, turn your phone off or something,
I'm talking to a crazy person or whatever.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: No, but they then they have this discussion in conversation.
Speaker 3: Setting him pictures of it, his mother naked, and it's
just the whole thing was weird.
Speaker 2: It was just weird.
Speaker 1: Nobody acted like a real person. Social media doesn't. Isn't
that way? It's just nothing, but the whole thing crashed
and burned. I was sort of interested in this story,
and I'm still going to fake you know, watch it
until it ends.
Speaker 3: But I the quality just went off of.
Speaker 2: Co does feel like the creator wants to make a
point and no matter what, at what costs, right the characters,
you know, it doesn't matter, right. It's that type of show,
that type of creation that you know, you you want
to make a point. You want your react, you want
your characters to react to certain weight so you can
make that point. But when you look at it, none
of them.
Speaker 3: None of that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the husband's meeting with him in a restaurant,
the guy that destroyed his wife's life, Like, oh right,
what what I'm I'm so uninterested in the story now
completely on there. I'll watch it until the end so
she can turn around and tell everyone they're an asshole.
But no, none of this made any sense to me.
Speaker 3: It was so poorly conveyed that I don't know what's
embarrassing to watch?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I mean it would be. It would have
been clever if the whole thing was just you know,
Kevin Klein's character, you know, idea of what happened, like
you know he imagined all that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be interesting.
Speaker 2: It does feel like the whole point of the story
is to show people people's perspective. They're different.
Speaker 1: People are judgmental and they're quick to judge women, And
I get it, you can tell that story. But this
you you were so canceled, Catherine was when I checked out.
Speaker 2: I was. They keep going on and on about you know, oh,
this book, the book, the book says, the book where
she slept with a guy.
Speaker 3: And this is some some huge thing, like what why
is everyone treating this like, you know, she murdered someone.
Speaker 2: Right, because apparently in the book that's how you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, if if those flashbacks that we're seeing are
actually what the book wrote, which it's pretty clear at
this point that it is the book, then the word
she can say about her is that she had an
affair with a kid, you know, broke it off with
him and watched him drown, which makes her sound really cold.
Speaker 3: But she's not a murderer.
Speaker 1: Like, I don't understand why her whole life is falling
apart because of this fictional account which she didn't even
really do anything all that terrible. Yeah, I just it's bad.
I'm sorry, I will finish it. I watched it because
I but I don't know what Kate Blanchette was thinking,
and well she.
Speaker 3: Probably thought it was going to be a difference.
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know what Outpodo Quirone was thinking, like
this is some bad That was a bad episode of Tell.
Speaker 2: It was really bad. Yeah, mean the whole time I
was like looking at you and going like, are you
kidding me?
Speaker 3: What I kept saying, when is this ending? My god?
Speaker 1: Like, it's just it's it's a slot to get through
at this point. We'll finish it. It's a shame. It
started off slightly interesting, and man, I just don't know
when I've seen a show go so far off a
cliff so like I was sort of in it, and
then by twenty minutes into this episode was like, oh,
this is terrible.
Speaker 2: I hope you know, we get at a point when
she tells her story, I mean she is a little
more clear about what.
Speaker 3: Happens, assuming that's coming.
Speaker 1: It's right, all right, the Jackhammers are literally about to
start any minute. So we have got to wrap this up.
Happy Halloween everyone, Thank you for your patience and we're
sorry we've been late with us so much. We are
going to get another one out to you before we
leave for Ireland next week. Until then, take care of yourselves,
love you mean it.
Speaker 3: By bye bye