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Speaker 1: We're Tom Lorenzo and this is the Pop Style Opinion

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Fest Telekit, and welcome back to another edition of the PSO.

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I am the Teen, You're Telo, Tom Fitzgerald, and I'm

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here with the Low and you my love husband. We

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have recorded this podcast. We have recorded this podcast in

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hotel rooms and on vacation and in all sorts of

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times and places. But I'm fairly certain this is the

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earliest we have ever ever flipped these mics.

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Speaker 2: We're in the dark.

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Speaker 3: It is literally dark out.

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Speaker 1: I only have half a cup of coffee in me,

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so it's going to be amazing if I make it

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through this next hour.

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Speaker 2: But we have to do it before they start banging.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The construction, oh my god, outside has gotten out of

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control and it's happening at all times of the day.

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And it's not just that they're building something behind us.

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They're also renovating the building that's attached to us on

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one side and they're drilling. There's jackhammers out on the street, like.

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Speaker 3: Literally right outside.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing, and this is why this podcast is so late.

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Well anyway, Yeah, we just could not get a recording

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done and we had a slot on like Monday, where

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we could have put out a podcast, and I said

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to Lorenzo, I was like, yeah, but Wednesday is the

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Actata all along finally, so it almost seems silly.

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Speaker 3: To so we pushed it off.

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Speaker 2: The funny thing is how we have cats adjut so

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quickly because they were freaked out the first day and now.

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Speaker 3: They don't care the first day oh of the noise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now they don't care.

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Speaker 3: They don't really.

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Speaker 2: That was like, yeah, whatever, cats are amazing.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, Happy Halloween.

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Speaker 1: It is Halloween morning, and we are going to have

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a very witchy sort of podcast. We're going to talk

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about the final three episodes.

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Speaker 3: Of Agata the whole long.

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Speaker 1: We're going to make a little bit of time to

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talk about Disclaimer, the previous episode of Disclaimer. The new

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The next episode comes out tomorrow, but I got to say,

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I'm mostly checked out at this point, but we will.

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Speaker 2: I just realized something. We don't have any candy Halloween,

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and we don't have candy.

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Speaker 1: Because we're going away and we're trying to maintain a

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certain fit because we have wedding outfits to get to

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get into.

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Speaker 2: So that's it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we leave next.

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Speaker 1: Week for Ireland, and because we there was such a

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gap between podcasts, we're going to try and get another

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one out the door.

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Speaker 3: We're going to record one this.

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Speaker 1: Weekend on a topic yet to be determined, and get

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to another one out the door before we get on

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that plane and get away.

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Speaker 2: We're ready, We're so ready. We're ready.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be not in the country while the

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votes are being chatted.

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Speaker 2: Crazy, which we're voting and then leaving and then leaving.

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Speaker 3: All right, so much to discuss, but.

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Speaker 1: Before we get into Agatha all along, just a side

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note on another witchy topic. Cynthia Rivo.

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Speaker 3: Yeah who last our.

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Speaker 1: Last podcast, which was seemed like it was months ago.

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Our last podcast, we talked about Cynthia Rivo's reaction to

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a fan edit of a Wicked poster and how it

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kind of blew up in her face and the press

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surrounding it was pretty bad.

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Speaker 2: Right right right. And it's interesting because I give her

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credit for you know, apparently she gave an interview I

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believe it was The Independent, I can't remember, and she

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said that she wish she had asked a friend before

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the session.

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Speaker 1: Is yeah, she said she should have just vented to

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her friends and then get online and make a big deal.

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Speaker 3: Out of it, which you know, I thought was pretty good.

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Speaker 1: I think probably that people behind the film were like,

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you need to get out in front of us because

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it's bad pr but I thought it was. It's rare

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to see a star walk back that sort of commentary,

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and she did, and I was like, all right, good

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for her. I mean, she's got a film on the line,

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she's got money on the line.

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Speaker 2: Well still, the exact quote was I probably should have

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called my friends. Yeah, and you know, it's so true.

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And I mentioned that the last podcast. I said, you know,

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that's the thing. We run to social media, you know,

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as soon as we think about something, right, And you

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shouldn't be that way, especially.

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Speaker 1: If you are a public We've been saying out about

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stars all along. It's not as good for you as

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you think it is. You can control your narrative to

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a certain extent, but the first time you lose control, right,

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it's all on you. And that's you know, it's just

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always the and especially when you just about to launch

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launch a movie. I am sure that publicists were like,

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what are you doing.

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Speaker 2: It's the same thing with Paul Matsco and the whole

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thing with thar Sharon and the interview that we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: On the Graham Norton Show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah again, man, you're about to, you know, step on

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the red carpet with your movie Gladiator, and you're just

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kind of like joking and talking about you know, women

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and their cell phones and stuff like that. It's just

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not right. I mean, be smart, not the time.

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Speaker 3: Be fair.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they were joking about women and their

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cell phones. They just couldn't.

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Speaker 3: They were.

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Speaker 1: It was a bunch of men who simply couldn't understand

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someone who would be in a very defensive position, right.

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But and she came along and said, well, women have

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to deal with that all the time. It's not that

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they were making fun of women or they were. The

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point of that whole exchange was they weren't thinking about

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women at all.

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Speaker 2: Well that's the thing. But my point is I'm glad

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she said something.

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Speaker 3: Oh no, it was a great moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a great moment.

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Speaker 3: To the credit of.

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Speaker 1: Those men, they were all chasing the immediately, like they

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immediately realized, oh, okay, we really screwed that one up.

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Speaker 2: It. I thought it was great and we need more

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moments like that that, you know, someone says, someone explains,

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you know, and and tells you that, you know, that's

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not exactly how it happens, and at least not to us.

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And anyway, I thought it was great. So but my

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point is that it's just about to be on the

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red carpet, you know, all the time now promoting his movie,

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and and then you know, you can't have anything like that.

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You just can't. The studios will freak out.

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Speaker 3: Being and freaking out.

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Speaker 1: Our cats right now are just they do not understand

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why it's five in the morning and all the lights

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are on, yelling into these sticks, because.

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Speaker 2: What happens in the morning is that, you know, Meme

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starts yelling at me and wants me up and to

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feed her, and then she expects me to be on

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my desk, so I'm not on my desk right now,

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and she can't understand what's going very annoyed by the situation,

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like why aren't you on your death you know, because

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she sits right next to me and it's so key.

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She stares at you, and tab is always you know,

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walking around they you know, it's the morning routine, and

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then they're there don't understand why it's not happening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy in here right now. We said we

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would talk about our because it's Halloween, we would talk

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about our ghosts.

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Speaker 3: God, I don't know why you hate when I mentioned

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we have a ghost.

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Speaker 2: Because I do not like the idea of having a ghost.

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Speaker 3: We have a ghost.

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Speaker 1: We live in a former industrial lawft. You know, it

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was a manufacturing facility and I don't know, I'm not

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even sure what used to get manufactured here, but the

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whole neighborhood that we live in was all small scale manufacturing,

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and it was things like you know, pins and you know,

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zipper polls and all that sort of thing. And when

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we first moved into this neighborhood, a lot of these

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places still exist. There were a lot of these wholesale

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manufacturers and like restaurants supply now they're kind of all

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gentrified out.

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Speaker 3: But our we're on the second floor of the building

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and there are still holes in the floor from where

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the machinery was bolted into the floor.

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Speaker 2: It's really cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, out of that history.

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Speaker 1: There's a shaft that was cut out of the floor

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for where there used to be a big industrial cage

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style elevator there, and that's no longer there, so it

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has this cool feel to it, but it also has

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this aged feel to it. And as I said to

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Lorenzo years and years and years ago, I was like, wow,

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if they were manufacturing stuff here in the in the

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nineteenth century, somebody died here. People always died. There was

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no workplace safety back then. Anyway, we've been in this

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place for over a decade, well over a decade, and

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there's just been incidents. There's been incidents all around, things

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that go flying off the wall.

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Speaker 3: And that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: I think think you will always need to take some

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of this with a grain of salt because we live

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with three cats, which means there's always little movements and

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stuff happening, things get knocked over. And we also live

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in an attached building, attached on both sides. So I'm

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saying this because some of what I consider ghostly stuff

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is that, first off, there's phantom smells, a lot of

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phantom smells. You don't get it as much as I do,

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but sometime at like two in the morning, I'll get

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up or something and the place reeks of cooking, and

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now it's possible. First off, we don't have a neighbor

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on one side of us. It's an attached building, but

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there's no tenant. The other side of us is a

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single dwelling household. It's possible that person is cooking at

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two o'clock in the morning, and it's possible that their

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kitchen is on the second floor.

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Speaker 3: I don't know the lay out of their house because

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we don't actually like them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So for years I've been like, is she what

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is she cooking?

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Speaker 3: Is her kitchen next to our living room? Like I

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don't get it?

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Speaker 1: And then years and then after years of this, I

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was like, you know what, I think this is like

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a phantom smell thing.

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Speaker 3: I really do.

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Speaker 1: Granted, this was not a home, so they weren't doing

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cooking in this building, so maybe I'm wrong, But that's

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one of them. The big one that I have is footsteps,

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and I mean footsteps when I'm alone in the in

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this place. It happens all the time. Lorenzo and I

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schedule our days so that we try and stagger our

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gym our gym visit so that we're not you know.

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That way, we get to spend some time away from

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each other, and one of us gets to have the

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place to themselves for an hour or two while the

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other one is out. And it's always when you're not here.

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I will be sitting at my desk and I will

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think you're out in the kitchen fussing around or doing something.

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And there have been times when I've called out and

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said what are you doing and realized that I was alone.

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I've had footsteps come right up to me where I was.

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Speaker 3: I thought you were.

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Speaker 1: Here, and I could hear this shuffling and moving and

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actual creaking of footsteps, and I would realize that I

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was alone, and the footsteps would I'd listen. I'd lean

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in and listen, and I'm like, they're right. I can

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hear them, like right next to my desk. Never once

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in all the time I've lived here, have I ever.

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Speaker 3: Been scared.

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Speaker 1: I've never had a moment where I was scared or

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anything like that. And I don't know what goess are.

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I don't know if they're just like electromagnetic forms that

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are you know, wave patterns that are stuck in a

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certain place and repeat themselves and that sort of which

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is what I tend to believe.

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Speaker 3: Gohs are.

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Speaker 2: I don't hear a thing, I don't see a thing.

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Speaker 1: Thank God, you've had We've had stuff happen, You've had

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stuff you check out.

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Speaker 3: You don't want to deal with this.

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Speaker 1: What about the wreath that flew off the walls several

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times all the way across the room. It was a

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Christmas wreath. Oh yeah, maybe we would find what Why

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are you doing that? I don't know, because are you

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afraid they're going to come for you to admit they exist?

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Speaker 2: They don't talk to me, We should go.

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Speaker 1: You are lying because you have had these experiences and

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that you don't want to talk about them on the mic,

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and you're making me sound like a looning.

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Speaker 2: No, listen, Yeah, I mean it's possible. I'm not possible.

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Speaker 1: How many times have things fallen over for no reason?

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How many times have you called out and said.

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Speaker 3: What was that?

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Speaker 2: That is true?

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Speaker 1: How many times that happens a lot, like literally on

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a weekly basis. And I've again, I know we have cats,

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and many many times there will be some noise or

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shuffle or something, and I'll go and I'll find all

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three cats and they're all asleep or there or in

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some way clearly wasn't them. They're not in the area

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where something fell over. So, yes, we had some little

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energy pattern that comes in and focks things up. And

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I this is why it never bothered me or scared me,

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is because I'm not psychic or anything like that. I

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don't even know if I believe in that, But I

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have never felt that there.

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Speaker 3: Was a literal.

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Speaker 1: Presence, like that there was a mind behind, like we

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were being watched or something, or that there was something

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we could interact with. It feels like an energy pattern

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that keeps repeating. Interesting to me anyway, that's our ghost

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story and our witch story. And I think this concludes

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now we're going to get into the Agatha all a long.

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Speaker 2: Stiff Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, so good.

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Speaker 1: We haven't talked about it because I am still turning

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over that phenomenon in my head and there are parts

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about it that I'm.

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Speaker 3: Like, hm, really, that's that's what you decided to deal Huh.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I have to say the us.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with right, Yeah, yeah, let's because there's three

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episodes we miss yeah, we missed last week doing and

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it was the best episode of the series, the Patty

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Lapone episode. And I just want to spend a moment

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in glut because most of my theories were correct.

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Speaker 3: Turned out to be correct in the law run.

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Speaker 1: I said a couple of weeks ago that it was

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not that this was some major thing that I figured out.

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Everybody figured this out, that Lilia was bouncing through time

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and she was experiencing her timeline out of order. And

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I said, back then, I said, all these little interjections,

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there's going to be an episode near the end of

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the series where we get to see what they add

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all these interjections up, and they did that. I also

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said that I thought Rio was death, that she was

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the embodiment of death. Then yes, I will conflect about that.

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So Patty Lapone's episode.

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Speaker 2: You know, fantastic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's when the show really really clicked as a

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quality production where they were telling real stories of women

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and the Those stories were engrossing and interesting, and it really.

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Speaker 3: Showed you what the show could be, what a show

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like this could be.

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Speaker 1: And I all that week after that episode aired, when

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I thought we were going to be doing a podcast

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about it, I was gathering my thoughts and I was thinking,

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you know, you just don't see Marvel doing You don't

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expect Marvel to do a story like this. Someone like WandaVision,

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which wound up being a story. Despite all the pyrotechnics

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and the special effects and the battles and the sky

316
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and the robots and the witches and everything, it was

317
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still a basic story about grief, about the processing of grief.

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And I thought I was I loved the show for

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that because and I love Agatha for what it did

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00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,519
with this Patty the Opponent episode, because as a longtime

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comic nerd who knows these characters, who knows their histories

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and their stories and everything and how they unfolded over decades,

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it's so grad find to see people come along and

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dig into this genre and into these characters and pull

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out something new. It wasn't another superhero battle. It wasn't

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00:16:12,639 --> 00:16:16,759
another you know it was in Turn in WandaVision and

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00:16:16,799 --> 00:16:20,440
again in Agada. All along it was about something they tried

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00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,600
to make a story about, something they tried to pull

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00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,440
characters up out of, Like the Marvel sidelines. All of

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those characters, all of them are in the comics. Patty

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Lapones and Sashiro z Amadas and and and you know,

332
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Aubrey Plaza. All those characters are in the comics Chris.

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They're all like women in bikinis in the comics. Yeah,

334
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I mean Lily in the comics is yeah, oh my god.

335
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Of course, old women in comic.

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Speaker 3: Books, of course.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, I thought it was great that they were

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pulling this story out. It was also, I think one

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of the best and most original stories of Witchcraft I've

340
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ever seen, you know, the way she was bouncing through

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time and everything. What really made that episode gorgeous was

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the interludes with her I want to say, her grandmother,

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but she never said as she said.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, that woman. I could watch her all.

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She was good. She was so good.

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Speaker 1: She's when she's when Patty the Pone says, I'm a

347
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forgotten woman, and she said, then remember yourself.

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Speaker 3: It was so I mean, the show did this thing.

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Speaker 1: They really tried to straddle a line in depicting Witchcraft

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because they wanted to clearly make, you know, pay homage

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to the idea that there was a sisterhood there, that

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that that is about women gaining power in a patriarchal society,

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but it's also about like, you know, doing bad things

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and evil things and not actually being a particularly nice

355
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pat Yeah. I mean, they straddled that line fairly well,

356
00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:08,519
but with Lily's character, it was I think she might

357
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have been the most sympathetic character. I mean, not that

358
00:18:10,759 --> 00:18:12,599
Alice wasn't sympathetic, but.

359
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Speaker 2: There's I love all of them. I will talk about.

360
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a story about a woman at the

361
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end of her life and facing that she was at

362
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the end of her life, and you needed the woman

363
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of age to play that character, and so Patty Lupo

364
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and brought, you know, seventy plus years of experience and

365
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,240
age to that role. So in the moment where she

366
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said it's happening more frequently in her voice catches because

367
00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:40,400
she knows it means she's going to die. It was

368
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just so meaningful and so beautiful and so well done.

369
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Speaker 2: She did a fantastic job. As I was reading on

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the internet, people were saying that it's so great to

371
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see Patty doing something different because you're always expecting her

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to do musicals and singing and all that. And it

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was just something so dramatic and touching, as you said,

374
00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:07,359
about aging and about dying, and it was just beautiful. Everything,

375
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,720
the cinematography when she's talking to her master as a

376
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little girl, everything about it was just so poetic, so beautiful,

377
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,119
and that's what I love about this show. Because this

378
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,519
show can go from very like, I don't know, cartoonish,

379
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,640
very childish like and then some moments that you know,

380
00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:28,519
just make they make you think, and then they're just beautiful,

381
00:19:28,519 --> 00:19:31,880
beautifully done. Yeah. Loved it, loved it, the story about

382
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,799
her going back and the master I could. We watched

383
00:19:35,839 --> 00:19:36,160
it like.

384
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,880
Speaker 3: What I watched it probably like four times.

385
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, I watched it like two or three times, and

386
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,359
every time I'm not just mesmerized by that old lady talking,

387
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,480
which is beautiful. It's just beautiful.

388
00:19:45,599 --> 00:19:48,599
Speaker 1: The idea of when you think of and I remember

389
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,359
thinking this, I was like, God, I never never would

390
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,640
have thought of if I was doing a story about

391
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,880
witches making one of them a Sicilian Renaissance, yeah, which

392
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,799
like that's not the first image that comes to mind.

393
00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:05,880
And yet that scene with the Meister, I was like,

394
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,079
I want to know this woman, I want to know

395
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,880
her coven, I want to know what it was like

396
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,119
to be a witch in the Renaissance in Italy. Like,

397
00:20:12,319 --> 00:20:15,079
and that's good storytelling because it left you wanting so much, and.

398
00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 2: Her reactions were so real and amazing when she says, oh, you're.

399
00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:21,640
Speaker 3: Bad, you're visiting, you're visiting. Yeah, yeah, my.

400
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,559
Speaker 2: God, it was just so cool. Yeah, and she's so

401
00:20:24,599 --> 00:20:27,319
cool and collected, and she's just there like, oh okay,

402
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,119
and what does that mean? I mean, just guiding her like.

403
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:32,119
Speaker 3: A mentor does yes.

404
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,079
Speaker 1: Yes, there's some question in the end, because the final

405
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,960
scene is her running up to her meister for her

406
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,119
first lesson. There's some question as to whether or not

407
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,640
Lilya's life came full circle and that was Lilya returning

408
00:20:47,759 --> 00:20:51,359
to that moment at her moment of death, or whether

409
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,519
we were just seeing the beginning of the process. I

410
00:20:53,599 --> 00:20:55,359
tend to think we were seeing the beginning.

411
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:55,880
Speaker 3: Of the process.

412
00:20:55,759 --> 00:20:56,680
Speaker 2: That's what I got.

413
00:20:56,799 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that girl sitting at the opposite end

414
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,000
of the table was not the older Lilia was not there.

415
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,759
That was her on her first day, learning her first match.

416
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,039
Speaker 2: I got the same. Ye.

417
00:21:08,839 --> 00:21:11,039
Speaker 1: People wanted it to be a little bit more complicated.

418
00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:15,640
People wanted it to be that she wasn't dead, which

419
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,839
leads let's talk about this the show's relationship with death.

420
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,960
The show runner Jack Shafer has said, because she was asked,

421
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,079
you know, in lead up to the finale, whether any

422
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,079
of these characters were going to stay dead, because it's Marvel,

423
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,079
nobody stays that it's it's magic, so you don't have

424
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,519
to keep them dead, and she said, no, they're dead.

425
00:21:40,079 --> 00:21:41,599
Speaker 3: This is a show about death.

426
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,279
Speaker 1: And that's hard because the finale was actually a little

427
00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:48,920
hard to take.

428
00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 3: But I.

429
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: Appreciate that they had the courage of their convictions. I mean,

430
00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:00,039
I was doing some you know, last minute research this

431
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,960
morning and scrolling through Twitter looking for reviews and stuff,

432
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,839
and they had the Agatha all along poster kept popping

433
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,720
keeps popping up on our timeline, and I'm like, well,

434
00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:11,839
it kind of makes me sad now because literally everybody

435
00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:14,119
in the poster except for two characters are.

436
00:22:14,279 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 3: They all died.

437
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,319
Speaker 1: That's a high body count for a Marvel Disney show.

438
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 2: Right, especially because Marvel is always about legacy and bringing

439
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,759
them back and all that stuff. I guess they're not

440
00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:25,359
coming back on.

441
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,279
Speaker 1: This, And you know, you just you just don't expect

442
00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:31,400
to see a lot of debt characters die in a

443
00:22:31,599 --> 00:22:36,720
Marvel Disney show. It hasn't really happened before. Named characters

444
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,039
more or less protagonist characters, and like four of them

445
00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:45,079
were killed off, including the lead character. So I thought

446
00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:49,200
it was bold, but on some levels, the story left

447
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,440
me very sad, and I guess it's supposed to do that,

448
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,160
And to that, I would say, you know what, that's again,

449
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,720
that's really bold that you you got a check from Marvel,

450
00:23:00,839 --> 00:23:03,519
you know, and a slot on Disney Plus, and you said,

451
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,240
I'm gonna tell a sad story that's going to make

452
00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:09,839
people feel bad, right, and had the courage to actually

453
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,480
do that. Jack Shaffer's on another level when it comes

454
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,559
to Marvel stuff. I said that WandaVision was before Agatha

455
00:23:16,599 --> 00:23:18,680
all Along. I said, WandaVision was the best thing Marvel

456
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,400
ever did, the highest quality right thing they ever ever did,

457
00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:25,680
getting in Avengers and Infinity.

458
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 3: For you know, Civil War, all of that.

459
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,079
Speaker 1: It was just it was human, It was emotional. It

460
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,000
was also fantastical and imaginative. It had a theme, it

461
00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:36,799
had a point, and then the story ended somewhat definitively.

462
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,279
But then, of course they it being Marvel, they went

463
00:23:39,319 --> 00:23:43,000
off and did a whole movie. But Agatha all Along

464
00:23:43,039 --> 00:23:47,480
it's somewhat similar in you can see a lot of

465
00:23:47,519 --> 00:23:52,279
the same pattern in Agatha all Along. I said in

466
00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:55,079
the beginning of WandaVision when we were reviewing it, that

467
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,880
those first couple of episodes were very clever, but also

468
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,519
a little hard to sit through because the conceit of

469
00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:05,160
being stuck inside a sitcom without explaining it to the

470
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,440
viewer had worn thin by like the end of the

471
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,359
second episode. Similarly, we said in the beginning in the

472
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,720
first episode, all of that Agnes of Westview, where.

473
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 3: She thought she was a cop, it went on too long.

474
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 1: It was the same thing where you were stuck in

475
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,440
a scenario and you were like, Okay, could you explain

476
00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:25,799
what is going on here? Similar problem, similar problem to

477
00:24:25,799 --> 00:24:29,319
the finale is both finales is that you know, WandaVision

478
00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:31,759
turned into this big superhero battle in the sky, which

479
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,240
was a big letdown from the you know, five episodes

480
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,640
of like human emotion that preceded it and.

481
00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:42,880
Speaker 3: Agatha all along.

482
00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: And it did end with a sort of battle, but

483
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,359
not really between Rio and Agatha. It was more of

484
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,960
a surrender. It just felt like the show had was

485
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,759
taking itself in a direction that didn't feel like where

486
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,799
it had been. It had been a story about women,

487
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,039
so many women women's stories all coming together, you know,

488
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,160
this coven, and you got Alice's story about lifting her curse,

489
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,960
and Lily's story about accepting her own death, and and

490
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,279
Agatha's story about you know, losing her child and everything.

491
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,799
And in the end, it was about the teenage boy, right,

492
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,359
who's going to get his own who's probably going to

493
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,039
be in a Marvel movie or something like that. All

494
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,599
the other women except for one, died and their stories

495
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,160
mattered less than all right, let's go find your brother.

496
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 2: I know that's probably why they said yes to the project,

497
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,519
because they knew at the end, you know, well that's true. Yeah,

498
00:25:44,839 --> 00:25:46,000
it was going to be about a boy.

499
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,599
Speaker 1: All right, before we jump into the finale, why don't

500
00:25:49,599 --> 00:25:53,039
we take a short break where back and now we're

501
00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:59,240
going to get back into Agatha. So final two episodes?

502
00:25:59,279 --> 00:25:59,960
What did you think?

503
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 2: I actually thought it was eight and nine, right, I

504
00:26:02,519 --> 00:26:05,720
thought the episode eight was actually more exciting than episode nine.

505
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,000
I don't know, maybe the order there, I don't know.

506
00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:11,599
Speaker 3: He just felt like they made some unusual creative deossion. Yeah,

507
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:12,920
I mean there not.

508
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,839
Speaker 2: That I didn't appreciate both and the second one the finale,

509
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,160
but it was a little slow after you had such

510
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,160
an emotional episode before that. But they were both great,

511
00:26:24,519 --> 00:26:26,519
and we'll talk about they executed.

512
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: Some really good twists, one of which I actually did

513
00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:33,680
float as a possibility during one of our talks earlier

514
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,400
in the season where I said, you know, Wanda created

515
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,000
this whole fake reality, how do we know the road

516
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,319
is actually real? And to be honest, I won't pat

517
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,200
myself on the back too much for that because that

518
00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:47,519
was something I tossed out and.

519
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 3: I really did.

520
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,519
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know about that and never

521
00:26:50,599 --> 00:26:52,559
went back to it. So when they revealed, I.

522
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,599
Speaker 3: Was like, holy shit, I was actually right on that.

523
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: I was not expecting that at all.

524
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: It does explain an awful lot. Explains number one, why

525
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,839
the road looked so fake. Everything looked everything looked really fake.

526
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,039
And I got to say that moment where Rio took

527
00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:11,680
a knife out and sliced the backdrop to walk through it,

528
00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:13,759
I was like, Oh, that's really freaking clever.

529
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 3: That's just clever. They're admitting that this isn't real. Just so.

530
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: And the other thing I want to note is that

531
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,880
I think it was subtle, but you got to go

532
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,720
back and watch it in the first episode or the

533
00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:32,480
second episode. Missus Hart says or Sharon says that as

534
00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:34,759
a member of the Western Historical Society, she said, the

535
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:36,839
only thing that should be down here is our abandoned

536
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,200
mass transit system, and in the Lilia episode they stumbled

537
00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:45,960
upon a subway station. So and then at the end

538
00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:51,359
of the Seat series we see jensasher Zamana the only

539
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,559
one who really aside from Joe Locke's character, the only

540
00:27:55,559 --> 00:27:58,359
one who survived. She actually climbs up out of the ground.

541
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,880
So they were all underground. And I think all this

542
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:06,759
was him. The whole Witch's Road was him. He transformed

543
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:08,279
a bunch of subway stations.

544
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:09,519
Speaker 3: That's basically what that was.

545
00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 2: I was actually surprised. I was not expecting that everything

546
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,480
was created by him. And then when they explain every

547
00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:20,240
item in his room that his imagination, I.

548
00:28:20,279 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: Mean, yeah, I also want to say that not to

549
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:25,799
This isn't about patting myself on the back. It's about

550
00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:29,480
the show being consistent with its influences and everything. One

551
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,960
of the things I said a couple of weeks ago

552
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,160
was that it reminded me of Buffy. It had a

553
00:28:33,279 --> 00:28:34,240
very sort of Buffy.

554
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

555
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: Well, one of the things in his room was a

556
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,079
poster from the most famous Buffy episode, once More with Feelings.

557
00:28:40,119 --> 00:28:42,599
So again I feel all that was very deliberate and

558
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,799
I feel like I was picking up on it. But

559
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,519
that was a surprise. But the even bigger surprise, which

560
00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:56,079
was revealed in the finale, was that I got the

561
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,640
made up the Witches Road completely.

562
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 3: It was all made up. There was no witch is.

563
00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:03,079
Speaker 1: This song and all, and she and her her son

564
00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:07,039
made up the song and she used it to lure

565
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,119
unsuspecting which is, you know, into a scenario where they

566
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,400
all blasted her and she wound up killing them all.

567
00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:15,359
Speaker 3: It's a bold choice.

568
00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: I I'm afraid some of the stuff with Agatha is

569
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,000
a little hard to parse. I think they tried to

570
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:28,440
do too many things with Agatha at the end. I think,

571
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:30,880
you know, you tried to turn her into this wise

572
00:29:31,039 --> 00:29:34,640
sidekick for the for the teenage boy, you know, this

573
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,960
like Yoda like figure who was going to follow him

574
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,279
around and teach him or whatever. But then you just

575
00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:45,519
you spent an entire episode showing her like it was weird.

576
00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:47,440
I didn't feel they paid her off all that well.

577
00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:50,680
All season long, we were given hints that Agatha had

578
00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:53,640
some deep pain in her life and that the stories

579
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,920
about her being an evil witch were misunderstandings. We were

580
00:29:57,119 --> 00:29:59,200
we were fed this over and over and over again.

581
00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:01,480
But then in the final episode we find out that

582
00:30:01,519 --> 00:30:05,359
she's she spent centuries killing hundreds and hundreds of witches

583
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:11,759
for her own purposes, which makes her relentless just unremittingly evil.

584
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:15,680
She is a bad character. She killed hundreds and hundreds

585
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,720
of women. And it's weird they didn't want to unpack

586
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:23,279
this after so many episodes of I Needed You, my Coven,

587
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,480
my Sister and the Craft and all these stories. Your

588
00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:29,640
lead character didn't believe in any of that, and she

589
00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,200
was all about killing her felt witches. So there was

590
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,559
a tension in the in the and I just feel

591
00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:37,200
like they didn't unpack that very well.

592
00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. Why when she says, well, I was

593
00:30:40,119 --> 00:30:42,039
ready to kill them all the first days.

594
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't care.

595
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: It's not like I was holding out hope, the hopes

596
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,359
at Agatha was going to turn out to be a

597
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,440
nice person. I actually like that they made her a

598
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,039
bad witch. But I think they were just trying to

599
00:30:57,079 --> 00:30:59,839
have it both ways. Like you, you tried to ca

600
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,000
her as this all through this story, as this sort

601
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,480
of anti hero figure, you know, misunderstood anti hero figure,

602
00:31:07,519 --> 00:31:08,920
and then at the end you find out, well, no,

603
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,559
she was a liar and she killed.

604
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 3: Hundreds of procles, So no, she's not an anti hero.

605
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: I thought her story with her son and all that

606
00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:20,000
was really nice and well done. A little anti climactic, yeah,

607
00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:23,400
I agree, especially after we saw the episode eight with

608
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,680
all the action and you know, emotion, But I didn't

609
00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:29,519
like it, and it was it was interesting. I really

610
00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:35,000
loved her her interaction with real and with death and everything.

611
00:31:35,079 --> 00:31:37,200
I agree when she's I mean, I was really touched

612
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,720
when she said, Okay, I'll give you time. I'll give

613
00:31:39,759 --> 00:31:42,240
you some time with the son. The whole thing with

614
00:31:42,279 --> 00:31:44,359
the son, So I really liked that. I thought it

615
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,799
was clever because then she has to live with her

616
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:48,960
son and has no idea when he's going to be

617
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,039
taking away from her.

618
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: And the scene where death takes him was actually very

619
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,799
yeah hutching, because you see they made a point of

620
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,680
showing death coming for Lilia and comment for Alice, and

621
00:32:01,759 --> 00:32:05,240
she's frightening in those scenes. She's death, and when she

622
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,400
came for uh Nicky, she didn't have her her death

623
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,759
mask on. She just looked like a pretty lady in

624
00:32:11,759 --> 00:32:14,319
a green dress. And I just thought that was very

625
00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:16,079
tough in its own way, very touching.

626
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:19,039
Speaker 2: I thought some choices were very clever because I was

627
00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:20,920
really emote. I mean, I'm I always really touched by

628
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,119
the whole thing. And I liked that they showed her

629
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,119
Rio taking him, and then very little about her dealing

630
00:32:28,119 --> 00:32:31,079
with her son death, you know, like you know, there's

631
00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:33,000
not a lot of us screaming and creat right right, right,

632
00:32:33,079 --> 00:32:35,160
It's just a little bit of that. And they moved

633
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,279
the camera and I really liked that because I'm like,

634
00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:38,599
all right, that's all I need.

635
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,279
Speaker 3: That's intense.

636
00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:42,599
Speaker 2: For that, that's intense already. I really liked it. I

637
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,240
thought it was interesting. Reu was great. I felt that.

638
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 3: I still haven't unpacked it.

639
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: It's been less than twelve hours since I watched it,

640
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,359
and I never got a chance to watch it a

641
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,119
second time before doing this podcast, and that's rare for me.

642
00:32:57,119 --> 00:32:58,559
Speaker 3: I usually like bought something a lot.

643
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: But I do feel like Rio and Agatha's relationship was

644
00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:07,799
not as unpacked as well as it could be.

645
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 3: Now. I get that the it was like a it

646
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:14,599
was a take on the I.

647
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,079
Speaker 1: Was sort of like a classic toxic relationship to people

648
00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:20,000
who are crazy for each other, crazy about each other,

649
00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:22,440
but also constantly at each other's throats.

650
00:33:23,119 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: But I really.

651
00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: Couldn't connect some of the like that scene at the

652
00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:33,519
end and in Agatha's backyard where Rio came for her

653
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,799
and she was all scary and the sky turned all

654
00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:41,720
green and everything, and it turned into this battle royale.

655
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,599
Do you hate each other or do you love? And

656
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:46,640
I get it, I mean I get there are relationships.

657
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,240
It's one of those love hate relationships. But I just

658
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,599
why does Rio hate Agatha? I get why Agatha hates Rio.

659
00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:55,720
She killed she took her son, but why does Rio

660
00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:56,519
hate Agatha.

661
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:57,759
Speaker 3: She might be.

662
00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:00,759
Speaker 1: Hurt by Agatha for turning her back on her or whatever,

663
00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:03,799
but Rio was like vengeance, like she was going after

664
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:04,799
And I'm like, I don't get this.

665
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,679
Speaker 2: Why Yeah, especially because when she relied on Agata were

666
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,360
so many bodies for so many deaths.

667
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just don't understand what that turn was at

668
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:16,480
the end. I might have to watch it again to

669
00:34:16,559 --> 00:34:18,599
figure it out. And I get it. It's like, you know,

670
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,480
toxic lesbian relationship. I think that they were trying to

671
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,440
sort of do a riff on that, but I just

672
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,840
didn't I didn't get it. I I'm like, what is

673
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:30,639
whereyo mad at?

674
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: What? You know?

675
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: I just I don't know.

676
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,119
Speaker 1: It was a battle royale that was a great scene

677
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,400
and that kiss at the end, I mean, well, you know,

678
00:34:38,519 --> 00:34:40,920
that was one big queer lady kiss right in the

679
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,880
middle of Disney Plus and I all credit to them,

680
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,280
all credit to them. I'm happy to see it. But

681
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,639
then they did a full on kill your gaze trope,

682
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,800
which a lot of queer women who like fantasy have

683
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,199
seen too many queer lady characters get killed over the years.

684
00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:02,719
And the reaction online to this was not good. Really, no,

685
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,559
it wasn't good. I mean, the show was always leading

686
00:35:06,599 --> 00:35:09,800
towards that. I guess I didn't I honestly didn't expect

687
00:35:10,079 --> 00:35:11,880
Agatha to be dead at the end of season.

688
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and then now she's a ghost. It

689
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:14,519
was a little weird.

690
00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: That is something in the comics. There was a time

691
00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:21,639
when Agatha was dead and she was the Scarlet Witch's mentor,

692
00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:23,320
and she would be up here as a ghost.

693
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 3: But she's not dead anymore. She's a real she's alive again.

694
00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 2: So maybe she won't be dead next season.

695
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: And that's the other thing is that I mentioned this

696
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,480
in the past that Agatha, typically in the comics for many,

697
00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:38,280
many years, for most of her history, was depicted as

698
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:38,760
a crone.

699
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 3: She was an old old woman.

700
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 1: She wore like a Victorian dress with a little cameo

701
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,880
which she had white hair and a bun. And that

702
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,280
final look for Agatha was basically a wink to the fans,

703
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,480
very very close to how she looked when she was

704
00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:55,199
an old woman in the comics. And I just want

705
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,280
to say that the final episode was called mother Maiden Crone,

706
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,719
and Agatha was all three oh, because it dealt with

707
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,760
her motherhood, it dealt with her time as a young woman,

708
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,559
and then at the interesting which was actually pretty clever.

709
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 2: No, what I was going to say is that I'm

710
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,639
not a comic book fan, and what I find interesting

711
00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:13,880
about comic books is that because people have been reading

712
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,880
them for a long time, reading that character for a

713
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,239
long time, they get the story changes, their personality changes,

714
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:21,360
and all that stuff changes.

715
00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:22,639
Speaker 3: But different writers.

716
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I don't know if that translates

717
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,760
well to a series or a movie. You know what

718
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:28,320
I mean? I do.

719
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:31,039
Speaker 1: I know exactly what you mean. That can make those

720
00:36:31,079 --> 00:36:33,719
sort of your characters can shift and change and be

721
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,920
in consistent over time. It's sort of like I always

722
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:41,400
like in classic comic book storytelling is exactly almost exactly

723
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,239
the same as soap opera storytelling, which it's it's you.

724
00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:47,079
Speaker 2: Know, story dead. That's awesome.

725
00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I mean it's a story that doesn't end.

726
00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:52,719
It goes on every month, your character, it continues, there's subplots,

727
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,400
and then characters in the background are suddenly in the foreground.

728
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,440
It's just like a soap opera. But that means there's

729
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,400
a lot of it. And just like soap opera characters,

730
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,119
there's a lot of inconsistency when you look at a

731
00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:05,239
characters publishing history. When you look at like something like

732
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,320
Susan Lunci's character and all my Children, and you run

733
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,039
down everything that character went through in like forty years

734
00:37:11,079 --> 00:37:13,719
of being on tell, it's a ridiculous multiple person Yeah,

735
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,760
it's a ridiculous It's the same thing with comic books

736
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,599
and when Marvel makes these and same thing with DC

737
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,039
when when these companies make these movies, they're pulling all

738
00:37:25,079 --> 00:37:28,239
sorts of elements from forty to seventy to eighty years

739
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,480
a comic book, and so it's a it's largely what

740
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:34,679
you see on screen. Even the most successful Marvel heroes,

741
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,039
even like Chris Evans as Captain America or whatever, it's

742
00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:41,880
a pastiche of eighty years of comic book stories. They

743
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,599
sort of blend it all together. They throw out the

744
00:37:43,599 --> 00:37:44,599
stuff that doesn't work.

745
00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 2: So that's what I mean. I mean, I understand why

746
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,239
they turn her into a ghost. Maybe to you know,

747
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,719
please defends blah blah blah. But maybe we didn't need that,

748
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:52,119
you know.

749
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: I swear, I think much in the same way as

750
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,760
Agatha's popularity caught them off guard when Wanda is. They

751
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,800
did not expect Agaa to be this breakout character. There

752
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,760
was never a plan to give her her own show.

753
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,440
And then she became this breakout character. Everybody loved her,

754
00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:11,440
and they wound up giving a show. And I had

755
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,840
to say, Agatha Harkness is a side character. She has

756
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,159
always been a side character in Marvelus. She never had

757
00:38:17,159 --> 00:38:20,119
her own books. She's never been a superhero, she's never

758
00:38:20,159 --> 00:38:23,400
been on a superhero team. So to give a character

759
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,800
like that their own show was it was purely fueled

760
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,000
by the fandom. There was never a plan to give

761
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:33,599
Katherine Haun her own show. That character became really popular,

762
00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:35,679
they gave her her own show, And I still think,

763
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,039
I'm like, I don't think they understood that the fans

764
00:38:38,039 --> 00:38:40,079
were going to fall in love with all of these characters.

765
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,599
I mean I went into the finale thinking still thinking

766
00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:47,079
that maybe they weren't going to stay dead, that maybe

767
00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:49,719
Lilia and Alice were going to be alive at the

768
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:50,199
end of it.

769
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:51,119
Speaker 3: And I.

770
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: This is why I regret that we couldn't record a

771
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,280
podcast after the Patti Lapone episode, because I would have

772
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,719
said this, I would have watched the second season of

773
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,000
the show. If this season ended with all of them

774
00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:09,000
alive and still stuck on the Witch's Road, I would

775
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,679
have said, yeah, give me a second season on the

776
00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:13,760
Witch's Road, just putting them through trials. This is fun.

777
00:39:14,199 --> 00:39:17,079
These characters are fun to watch. They're on a really

778
00:39:17,079 --> 00:39:20,840
interesting quest, like you know, witches without power trying to

779
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,639
seek power. It was such a great hook that I'm

780
00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:26,079
sorry that they ended. And that's I can't believe I'm

781
00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:29,440
saying that, because my major complaint about almost all of

782
00:39:29,559 --> 00:39:32,519
Latter Day Marvel is that the stories never end. They

783
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:35,800
all lead into something else. And here was a story

784
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,239
that had pretty much a definitive ending. It's clear that

785
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,000
Billy's story isn't done, but Billy wasn't the lead character,

786
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:45,320
despite them spending so much time on him. I got

787
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,800
the story for all intents and purposes can be closed

788
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,320
off at this point and we can say, well, that

789
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,840
was a complete story told, And on that level, it's like, well,

790
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,639
I admire that, and I appreciate that someone got a

791
00:39:57,679 --> 00:39:59,480
Marvel check and said, yeah, but I'm going to write

792
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,239
a story with an right, I'm not leading into the

793
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:03,840
next Avengers film or whatever.

794
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting as a creative person, I get if

795
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,119
you were the creator of the show, but as the viewer,

796
00:40:10,199 --> 00:40:10,840
as something.

797
00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 3: I'm disappointed you wanted more.

798
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,519
Speaker 2: I mean, like moments like Pattle Lupun's moment, moment, you know,

799
00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:17,960
like that you go back and I would love that.

800
00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:20,400
If it was just a show up of them bouncing

801
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:21,559
around and doing going.

802
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,599
Speaker 1: On challenges, trying to get the held off that road,

803
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,239
that would have been a great series.

804
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 2: A couple of seasons of that. Yeah. Absolutely.

805
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,199
Speaker 1: I guess Jack Shaper figured you get what you get

806
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,119
from Disney, and you should just try and tell a

807
00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:36,960
complete story. It's true because you're probably not going to

808
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:37,800
get a second.

809
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: Quite sure that to do would she did? She had

810
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,280
to agree to you, I know something. Yeah that at

811
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,880
the end, in the end, it was all, well wait.

812
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,519
Speaker 3: She it was clear that she was.

813
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 1: She was being told to set up Wigan, which is

814
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:51,719
Billy Maximov's character.

815
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: They are in the comics.

816
00:40:55,039 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 1: There was a team called the Young Avengers, and I

817
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,480
feel like a lot of bladder day Marvel is pushing itself.

818
00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:02,800
There is eventually going to be a Young Avengers, because

819
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,239
there's him, There's Kamala Khan, who's Miss Marvel. There's Harley

820
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,719
Steinfeld's character, who I guess they're calling her Hawkeye. It's

821
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,199
all of these next generation people and they'll eventually all

822
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,280
be together in it, and they'll be in a movie together.

823
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,239
There's going They're gonna find Tommy the you know, Billy's

824
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,840
brother at some point, and he in the comics is

825
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:28,760
a Speeds He can you know speeds there like his uncle. So, yeah, Wanda,

826
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,679
I mean Agatha all along, at least partially, she was

827
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:34,679
given Jack Shafer was given the brief you have to

828
00:41:34,679 --> 00:41:38,480
set up Wickan because he's going to be something going forward.

829
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,639
You tell your story, but it's but it has to

830
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:42,880
end a certain one with the boy.

831
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 3: I just I don't know.

832
00:41:45,039 --> 00:41:50,159
Speaker 1: I don't I I I wish they hadn't. I I

833
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,480
think there's something disappointing about Marvel doing a full on,

834
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,719
sort of toxic queer romance story and then kill all

835
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,199
you know, kill. It's just we've all seen so many

836
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,960
queer characters die. We've all seen so many queer characters

837
00:42:10,039 --> 00:42:12,480
finally kiss on screen, and then one of them gets killed.

838
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 3: You know, it's such a trope that I was.

839
00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: I was a little disappointed in seeing it. On the

840
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,360
other hand, like I said, I admire that they made

841
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,679
a show about death and they stuck to it. They

842
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,880
stuck to the theme death is real, death is permanent,

843
00:42:28,559 --> 00:42:30,480
Death is hard, but it feels like it.

844
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 2: Is the price you have to pay for being gay,

845
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,599
for being queer. Well, I mean, it's like in the

846
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:37,039
fifties when when you killed someone and then you had

847
00:42:37,079 --> 00:42:40,199
to go to jail or right or or die. Feels

848
00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:40,599
the same.

849
00:42:41,039 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: I know that wasn't the thinking behind it. I know

850
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,440
it was more about giving these characters complexity and and

851
00:42:47,519 --> 00:42:52,239
you know, having an antagonistic relationship. But it sucked watching

852
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,599
Rio kill Agatha. It actually did I get it, but

853
00:42:56,679 --> 00:43:02,800
I was like, okay, whatever, Oh Seshier's Amada, Oh my god,

854
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,159
I want to see that's a classic. That's a perfect

855
00:43:06,199 --> 00:43:09,559
example of Yeah, I don't know what you were thinking there,

856
00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:11,760
Like you gave her such a great moment.

857
00:43:11,519 --> 00:43:12,599
Speaker 3: But you never followed through.

858
00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: And Lily got a great moment, and Alice got a

859
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,559
great moment, and she that scene where she unbinds herself

860
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,079
was very She did a great job. It was very powerful.

861
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:32,159
I'm fairly certain that the filmmakers were aware that this

862
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,360
scene occurring between a black woman and a white woman

863
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,039
had all sorts of connotations to it, where they were

864
00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:40,880
bound right, and the white woman was the one responsible

865
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,679
for the black woman's binding, and the black woman freed

866
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,960
herself by declaring to the white woman that she had no.

867
00:43:48,039 --> 00:43:48,679
Speaker 3: Power over her.

868
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: I feel that that was fairly deliberate, but they didn't

869
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,800
linger on it too much because it's Marvel Disney. They're

870
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,239
not gonna know, They're not gonna make this about slavery.

871
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,679
They're not gonna well, but I did think Seshier did

872
00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:04,480
a great job in that scene. Even though she wasn't

873
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,920
given much to do, she lent it so much weight

874
00:44:08,599 --> 00:44:11,079
and it felt like an emotional release when she got

875
00:44:11,079 --> 00:44:13,920
her powers back. And I again, I wish I had

876
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,480
said this because I was thinking all along during especially

877
00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:22,199
once Billy's powers manifested and they were blue. Scarlett which's

878
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,280
powers were manifested is red, Wanda's, I mean Agatha's powers

879
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,360
manifested is purple. And the whole time, I was like,

880
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,079
I bet you when when Jen gets her powers back,

881
00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:33,880
it's going to be pink. And it was because she

882
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,079
was wearing that pink dress and it was I was.

883
00:44:36,079 --> 00:44:38,079
Speaker 2: Like, oh, I should have had I have to say

884
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,679
Sashier was absolutely she was drawnny, lightful. Yeah, I mean

885
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,440
she was so her lines were so funny, the way

886
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,840
she delivered everything. She was great. And I feel like

887
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:50,440
you said they didn't know what to do with all

888
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:51,679
these incredible women.

889
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: I just think they the actresses came along and turned

890
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,800
your characters into so much more than what the script

891
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,360
was offering that it h It's kind of a shame.

892
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,880
I wish they had, you know, said at the last second,

893
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:05,960
you know, let's go for a second season. You guys

894
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,400
are great together, but they didn't.

895
00:45:08,159 --> 00:45:08,519
Speaker 3: Whatever.

896
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 1: I think there's some I haven't really unpacked what's going

897
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,039
on in the fandom, but I feel like there's a

898
00:45:15,079 --> 00:45:16,679
mixed reaction to this hour.

899
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,639
Speaker 2: I'm sure the whole show people are mixed about it.

900
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:21,920
I loved everything I loved it.

901
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 1: I just I'm a little down on how it ended,

902
00:45:26,639 --> 00:45:30,320
not just because everybody died. I would have been fine

903
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,639
with Agatha dying, because you know, they they pretty much

904
00:45:33,679 --> 00:45:35,480
made it clear that she had some penance that she

905
00:45:35,519 --> 00:45:37,599
had to go through. She did a lot of bad things.

906
00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:42,559
But I don't know, it's weird because she was clearly

907
00:45:42,599 --> 00:45:45,559
a really bad character, did a lot of terrible things.

908
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:47,719
And yeah, she died, but she also got sort of

909
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,719
a happy ending. And we don't really see Lilia or

910
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,320
Alice or missus Hart getting a hat.

911
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,159
Speaker 2: They just died, right, Yeah, the whole growth thing, it's

912
00:45:57,199 --> 00:46:01,519
a little unbalanced. It feels a little hop out Disney

913
00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:07,519
to me. The Little Disney. I just didn't Yeah, I'm

914
00:46:07,519 --> 00:46:08,679
still trying to unpack it.

915
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: But I I loved I loved Agatha all along. I

916
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,960
loved it more than I thought I was going to.

917
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,840
I mean somewhere at about well probably the Patty lapone

918
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,960
episode where I was like, Wow, this is as good

919
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:22,559
or better than Wanda Vision, and I did not expect

920
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:23,440
that to be the case.

921
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: I actually want to watch the whole thing again.

922
00:46:26,639 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: Well I did last night. I did go and watch

923
00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:35,199
some of those beginning scenes again with Billy and Agatha

924
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,239
where he says, take me to the road and she says,

925
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:38,920
the road is a myth, and he said that's a

926
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,519
lot because I'm like, I need to see the scene

927
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:44,519
again because she knows the road is a myth. Oh,

928
00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:47,079
and the scene where they sing the song and the

929
00:46:48,039 --> 00:46:51,159
portal opens up in Agatha's basement. I watched that again

930
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,079
because clearly she never expected that to happen. Road runs over,

931
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,159
and if you watch it, it's very much in her

932
00:46:57,199 --> 00:47:01,079
performance that she does not understand and what the hell's happening?

933
00:47:01,679 --> 00:47:06,519
It throws the whole series into you know, question, not

934
00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:11,320
into question, but she had I mean when Billy manifested

935
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,760
his powers and she said she sort of suspected, but

936
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,239
she didn't know until he But that's not actually correct.

937
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,559
I mean he created the road, right, she had to

938
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:22,440
know from the minute that happened.

939
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 3: That okay, I mean she had to know.

940
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,119
Speaker 2: But if you go back, and I mean and see

941
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,079
the beginning again, you know, so many times she jokes

942
00:47:34,119 --> 00:47:36,880
about that, Oh, sure, go ahead, do your thing, you know,

943
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,280
kind of like she knows she plays along and yeah,

944
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,840
the same thing with real You're like, sure, you want

945
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:43,440
to be a calm.

946
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, let's talk about your case.

947
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 2: I know, it's just great, great. I mean so you

948
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,519
kind of if you go back, you can see you know, yeah,

949
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:59,000
you can see it happening. But still I was not

950
00:47:59,079 --> 00:48:01,599
expecting that the whole thing that's created by him. I mean,

951
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:03,119
it was just crazy to me.

952
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,079
Speaker 1: I have, you know, in the back of my mind,

953
00:48:07,119 --> 00:48:09,239
I wondered about it, and especially because it was so

954
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:14,400
fake looking. But I did not expect to find out

955
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,519
that she made it up, that Agatha made the whole

956
00:48:17,599 --> 00:48:20,440
road up, that she made the song up and everything

957
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,760
it does. There was certain few things into like she

958
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,519
argued with Jen about what the lyrics of the song

959
00:48:26,559 --> 00:48:30,559
were much much earlier, and I have to go back

960
00:48:30,639 --> 00:48:33,679
because she wrote the song, like you know, I have

961
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,440
to go back and see if she was right, if

962
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,360
the lyrics that she was quoting to Jen were the

963
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,800
original lyrics to the song, something about coven two or

964
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,400
something like that, which would have referred to her and

965
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:43,840
her son.

966
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:45,519
Speaker 3: They were a coven of two.

967
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 1: So I think the show was really good about planting

968
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,480
all of this stuff and then picking up on it.

969
00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:55,559
And I don't feel like there's any thread that hasn't

970
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,840
I think there are things that weren't developed as well.

971
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,360
For instance, the Agatha and relationship Fritz all. We never

972
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,000
saw them meet, we never saw them in love. We

973
00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:08,079
only saw them confronting each other about her child and

974
00:49:08,159 --> 00:49:09,880
about when she was going to take her child. But

975
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,719
in terms of their history, we never saw it and

976
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,039
they and I did feel like that that entire last

977
00:49:16,079 --> 00:49:19,159
episode was turned over to Agatha's history, like we were

978
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,320
traveling through time with Agatha, which was great.

979
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:22,119
Speaker 3: It was a nice chant.

980
00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:24,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, there, really there's a costume budget here.

981
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:30,199
They've built a whole colonial town. But yeah, I don't know.

982
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,559
I think they they they could have spent at least

983
00:49:33,599 --> 00:49:37,400
some of that final episode detailing how these two beings met,

984
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:40,039
how they fell in love, how does that even work?

985
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:42,039
Speaker 3: How do you have a relationship with death?

986
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,639
Speaker 2: So I agree, I agree, And like I said, episode

987
00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:49,119
eight was so emotional and explosive and all that, and

988
00:49:49,199 --> 00:49:52,360
then episode nine it slows down on launch yebout her

989
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,159
and her kid, and I don't think, fine, I'll watch it.

990
00:49:55,199 --> 00:49:57,519
It's because it's important. It is her story. We're going

991
00:49:57,559 --> 00:50:00,440
to find out right what happened to her and and

992
00:50:00,599 --> 00:50:02,679
so on. But it was just a little of it.

993
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, little disappointing, especially since Nicholas Scratch in the comics

994
00:50:08,039 --> 00:50:09,119
is a full blown character.

995
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,039
Speaker 3: It was actually a villain, And I mean maybe that's

996
00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:14,920
still the case. We don't know. We don't know, Like

997
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,679
Nikki died, but that doesn't mean he right right right.

998
00:50:18,519 --> 00:50:20,119
Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to see any of these characters,

999
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:22,719
be perfectly honest, I really don't think really they're not

1000
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,280
bringing this show. But I would be very surprised if

1001
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,639
they brought this show back. Although apparently the ratings were

1002
00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:32,039
really good and I know it was the cheapest show

1003
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:36,119
they ever produced, and oh yeah, that actually goes into

1004
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,960
you know, deciding whether to renew a show, is that

1005
00:50:39,039 --> 00:50:41,840
they produced a ratings blockbuster on a budget, and that's

1006
00:50:42,039 --> 00:50:47,320
you know, personally, I think you'd have to do a

1007
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,119
lot of narrative fuckery to try and get all these

1008
00:50:50,199 --> 00:50:52,960
characters alive and back for another season of this show.

1009
00:50:53,119 --> 00:50:55,119
So I think it probably would be disappointing.

1010
00:50:55,519 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 3: What I really want is for.

1011
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: Marvel to give Jack Shaeffer, the show runner, a check

1012
00:51:00,079 --> 00:51:01,960
and free ring to go do something else. She has

1013
00:51:02,039 --> 00:51:05,719
nothing lined up with them. She just recently said they

1014
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:06,960
need to give that woman a movie.

1015
00:51:07,079 --> 00:51:07,800
Speaker 3: They need to give that.

1016
00:51:08,039 --> 00:51:11,679
Speaker 1: Like, there's a whole section of Marvel which is all

1017
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,239
magic characters. They should just hand it over to her.

1018
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,119
She's really good at this world. She's really good at women,

1019
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,840
at telling stories of women within this fantastical world. Right,

1020
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,480
give her a Scarlet Witch movie. I mean, everyone wants

1021
00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:30,719
the Scarlet Witch to come back. It wouldn't be hard

1022
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,800
to bring her back. And yeah, Jack Shafer knows what

1023
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:39,159
she's doing with these characters. I just think they're silly

1024
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:40,280
not to hand her something.

1025
00:51:40,639 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 2: I enjoyed the whole thing, and like I said, I'm

1026
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,960
not a comic book fan, not even a Witch fan

1027
00:51:46,159 --> 00:51:48,880
that much, and enjoyed it so much that I want

1028
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:52,280
to watch it again. It was really really good, beautifully done,

1029
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,920
you know, just yeah, very intelligent, very clever, very funny,

1030
00:51:58,119 --> 00:52:02,000
and all the women in it and Joe did a

1031
00:52:02,039 --> 00:52:02,719
fantastic job.

1032
00:52:03,119 --> 00:52:05,119
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to rush you, but the Jackhammers are going

1033
00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:07,119
to start in about fifteen minutes, so we're going to

1034
00:52:07,159 --> 00:52:08,679
take a real quick break and then we're going to

1035
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,400
come back and talk about disclaimer.

1036
00:52:12,519 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 3: We're back.

1037
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,199
Speaker 1: Just wrapped up our a gota all A long discussion,

1038
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,119
loved it. Sorry to see it end, but kind of

1039
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,920
don't think a return would be in the best interest.

1040
00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:27,559
We'll see Disclaimer. We've been talking about disclaimer all along

1041
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,960
since at first debut the k Blanchette Alfonso Quirne limited

1042
00:52:32,039 --> 00:52:38,960
series about wealthy people with extravagant problems, and I've been

1043
00:52:39,159 --> 00:52:40,920
keeping it, you know, taking it with a grain of

1044
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,360
salt the whole time. I'm like, okay, you know, I'll

1045
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,199
just it's about the pretty houses and the dresses and

1046
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,840
watching terrible people get their come up and so or whatever.

1047
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,000
I knew, or at least I strongly felt it was

1048
00:52:54,079 --> 00:52:57,719
going to take a bad turn, and boy did it

1049
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:02,320
ever with this episode. I just found this episode painful

1050
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,880
to sit through. It was I didn't watch it a

1051
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:09,159
second time. It was such a slog everything about it.

1052
00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:13,199
I mean, at one point a character says, you are

1053
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,840
so canceled, Catherine, and I'm like, no, what, No, I.

1054
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 3: Know, nobody talks, nobody talks like this. The whole thing.

1055
00:53:24,519 --> 00:53:28,519
Speaker 1: Felt like a story about social media that was written

1056
00:53:28,599 --> 00:53:31,760
by an eighty year old who's never ever been on social.

1057
00:53:31,639 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: What I hated about this these this episode, it's because

1058
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:41,519
it felt like the creator just uh, expanding, stretching this character,

1059
00:53:41,639 --> 00:53:45,840
these characters to you know, to tell get this overweight. Yeah,

1060
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,519
it was just they it just didn't feel real. And

1061
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,239
and and I don't understand. I stood, don't understand why

1062
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:56,119
all these characters are Are I reacting based on what

1063
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,840
they read in a freaking book? Man? I mean everything,

1064
00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:03,880
it's based on the book that woman wrote. Nobody spends

1065
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,679
any time questioning what they read or even ask her.

1066
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: I think there's a point there that they're trying to make,

1067
00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:18,639
which is that the relationships in her life were not

1068
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,960
very deep and these people secretly didn't think very much

1069
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:25,440
of her, including her husband, her son, and her coworkers.

1070
00:54:25,519 --> 00:54:27,480
Like I feel like you could do a story about

1071
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:32,119
society turning on a woman very quickly, you know, and whatever,

1072
00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:35,119
But this isn't that story because everyone acted like such

1073
00:54:35,119 --> 00:54:36,079
a cardoon character.

1074
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,679
Speaker 2: The scene in her office, my god, it was so.

1075
00:54:40,199 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 3: Badly written, badly acted, badly directed.

1076
00:54:43,159 --> 00:54:43,679
Speaker 2: The thing is.

1077
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 1: That's the scene where the guy said you are so canceled, Catherine.

1078
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,320
I was like, Jesus Christ, how did that write?

1079
00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 2: And the screen the way her assistant talked to her.

1080
00:54:54,039 --> 00:54:58,599
Speaker 1: Suddenly her assistant hates her, and she keeps telling the

1081
00:54:58,679 --> 00:55:02,239
guy in her office to stop touching her, and he

1082
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,679
won't stop touching her, and that's when she reacts and

1083
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:07,679
she actually sort of, you know, kind of slaps him,

1084
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:10,079
and oh, the whole office and everyone has their phones out.

1085
00:55:10,079 --> 00:55:11,880
I'm like, yeah, but he was touching her right right

1086
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,039
right like that. That is an hr violation right there.

1087
00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:17,960
He was grabbing her several times after she said stop

1088
00:55:18,039 --> 00:55:21,079
touching me. And I feel stupid even unpacking it. In

1089
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:22,320
the whole thing so dumb.

1090
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,559
Speaker 2: And if you watch the scene again, in the beginning,

1091
00:55:24,599 --> 00:55:27,000
he's yelling at her and saying, well this and that,

1092
00:55:27,159 --> 00:55:29,280
you cancel bub blah blah. And then when she walks away,

1093
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,400
he's like, wait, wait, wait, do you need help? Do

1094
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,280
you want to tell it's it's nothing about nobody else.

1095
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,119
Speaker 1: None of this made any sort of emotional sense, Like

1096
00:55:39,519 --> 00:55:42,159
everybody in the office had their phones out and was

1097
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:44,760
recording her, and it was on the internet by the

1098
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,039
time she was on the bus riding. Oh that's a

1099
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:48,119
massive hr B.

1100
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,079
Speaker 2: And why is she taking a bus? Why is she

1101
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:52,440
taking a boat? The husband has a car, why doesn't

1102
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,880
she have a car? The whole thing, like she she's

1103
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,920
walking like a homeless person, because that's what she's supposed

1104
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,440
to be. Now you know this horrible to everything? Yeah, yeah,

1105
00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:04,000
horrible woman who lost everything. She doesn't even have a car,

1106
00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:06,199
she has to walk on the street and take the bus.

1107
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 1: I don't even know, not to sound callous, but I'm

1108
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:11,360
also like, what is what is the crime she was

1109
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,480
supposed to have committed? She she had a fling and

1110
00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:17,679
the guy drowned, and what what is the big shocking

1111
00:56:18,039 --> 00:56:20,199
you are so canceled, Catherine thing, Like what?

1112
00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: And the thing that bothers me most is that all

1113
00:56:23,159 --> 00:56:26,800
these reactions and decisions are are based on the book

1114
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,039
The Woman Route, you know, like.

1115
00:56:28,119 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 1: Which, okay, this is the other thing that where the

1116
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,239
story just falls apart from me. Is Kevin Klein. Is

1117
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:39,079
this mastermind, just absolute man, just completely destroyed that son

1118
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,079
in the space of twenty four hours. Every single thing

1119
00:56:42,159 --> 00:56:44,000
he has done, he has pulled off with a plum,

1120
00:56:44,159 --> 00:56:47,239
completely destroying this woman's life, even though he's some cranky, old,

1121
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:52,199
depressed man. And this book is apparently so good that

1122
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,840
they're putting it in the windows of bookstores and everything,

1123
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,400
Like all of this hinges on leslie Manveld being this

1124
00:56:59,599 --> 00:57:03,440
inc redibly powerful, good writer, even though she's never written before,

1125
00:57:03,519 --> 00:57:05,239
and she was depressed and crazy at the time she

1126
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,880
wrote the book, and her husband being this met and.

1127
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,559
Speaker 3: I'm like, what is that? These cads? This doesn't make

1128
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:11,719
any goddamnit sense.

1129
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:17,079
Speaker 2: The only thing she had to based on photograph some photographs.

1130
00:57:17,079 --> 00:57:20,400
I mean, the son didn't come back to tell her anything.

1131
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 3: Right, everybody should be unpacking that, but nobody is.

1132
00:57:23,679 --> 00:57:27,159
Speaker 2: Nobody's nobody's and Katherine keeps saying, well, let me explain,

1133
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:28,719
and nobody wants to listen.

1134
00:57:29,199 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: Which, you know, I actually do feel that, Mike, I'm

1135
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,920
correct about the assumption that she was probably raped.

1136
00:57:36,039 --> 00:57:36,719
Speaker 2: Something happened.

1137
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:37,559
Speaker 3: Actually, if that.

1138
00:57:37,679 --> 00:57:39,239
Speaker 1: Is the case, I'm going to be really annoyed with

1139
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:41,639
this whole story because all she had to do at

1140
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,400
any point in this story is scream out I was raped,

1141
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:47,199
and that would end the entire story.

1142
00:57:47,679 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 3: But oh, let me just explain. Oh you've said enough, Catherine,

1143
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:52,480
You're so canceled, Kat like, what the hell?

1144
00:57:52,719 --> 00:57:54,119
Speaker 2: No, no, no.

1145
00:57:54,719 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 1: And the thing with the son, I get it. He's

1146
00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:02,960
a very depressed kid. He clearly has some substance abuse issues,

1147
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:05,360
and his parents have neglected him his whole life. But

1148
00:58:05,519 --> 00:58:09,320
he gets into one online conversation with a stranger, and

1149
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,159
all day he spirals into like this, No, I'm sorry,

1150
00:58:13,199 --> 00:58:15,199
it was dumb. The whole thing was done, just the

1151
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:20,159
scenes of him chatting, yes, and where I'm supposed to be.

1152
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,079
This seventy five year old man who has never been

1153
00:58:22,199 --> 00:58:25,159
on social media is able to convincingly portray a nineteen

1154
00:58:25,239 --> 00:58:28,599
year old to a twenty five year old on no, no, no,

1155
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:30,000
everything about this and that thing.

1156
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,239
Speaker 2: Needs to be blunt. To be honest, the kid is

1157
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:33,880
an asshole in a way.

1158
00:58:34,039 --> 00:58:36,079
Speaker 3: He is an asshole, and the husband's an asshole.

1159
00:58:36,159 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, but my point is that, you know, if he

1160
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,400
was to act like like an asshole, like a teenager,

1161
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,280
he would have just like laughed at the whole thing,

1162
00:58:46,519 --> 00:58:48,199
you know, talking right to the guy, talking to the

1163
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:49,000
old man, I mean.

1164
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,159
Speaker 3: Like yeah, okay, thinking that he was going to rea

1165
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:51,599
and at.

1166
00:58:51,519 --> 00:58:54,199
Speaker 2: Some point he was like all right, dude, whatever he died. Yeah,

1167
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,639
and then yeah, you know, turn your phone off or something,

1168
00:58:58,079 --> 00:58:59,719
I'm talking to a crazy person or whatever.

1169
00:58:59,800 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 3: Right.

1170
00:59:00,119 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 2: No, but they then they have this discussion in conversation.

1171
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,599
Speaker 3: Setting him pictures of it, his mother naked, and it's

1172
00:59:05,639 --> 00:59:06,599
just the whole thing was weird.

1173
00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 2: It was just weird.

1174
00:59:07,599 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 1: Nobody acted like a real person. Social media doesn't. Isn't

1175
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,960
that way? It's just nothing, but the whole thing crashed

1176
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,840
and burned. I was sort of interested in this story,

1177
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:18,960
and I'm still going to fake you know, watch it

1178
00:59:19,039 --> 00:59:19,639
until it ends.

1179
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 3: But I the quality just went off of.

1180
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,039
Speaker 2: Co does feel like the creator wants to make a

1181
00:59:24,119 --> 00:59:27,400
point and no matter what, at what costs, right the characters,

1182
00:59:27,679 --> 00:59:30,320
you know, it doesn't matter, right. It's that type of show,

1183
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,480
that type of creation that you know, you you want

1184
00:59:32,519 --> 00:59:35,199
to make a point. You want your react, you want

1185
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,360
your characters to react to certain weight so you can

1186
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,199
make that point. But when you look at it, none

1187
00:59:40,239 --> 00:59:40,440
of them.

1188
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:41,599
Speaker 3: None of that makes sense.

1189
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then the husband's meeting with him in a restaurant,

1190
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,800
the guy that destroyed his wife's life, Like, oh right,

1191
00:59:48,159 --> 00:59:52,440
what what I'm I'm so uninterested in the story now

1192
00:59:52,599 --> 00:59:54,559
completely on there. I'll watch it until the end so

1193
00:59:54,719 --> 00:59:56,880
she can turn around and tell everyone they're an asshole.

1194
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,280
But no, none of this made any sense to me.

1195
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,039
Speaker 3: It was so poorly conveyed that I don't know what's

1196
01:00:03,079 --> 01:00:04,440
embarrassing to watch?

1197
01:00:04,639 --> 01:00:07,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I mean it would be. It would have

1198
01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:10,480
been clever if the whole thing was just you know,

1199
01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,760
Kevin Klein's character, you know, idea of what happened, like

1200
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:16,039
you know he imagined all that.

1201
01:00:16,159 --> 01:00:17,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be interesting.

1202
01:00:18,679 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 2: It does feel like the whole point of the story

1203
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,480
is to show people people's perspective. They're different.

1204
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: People are judgmental and they're quick to judge women, And

1205
01:00:27,159 --> 01:00:29,199
I get it, you can tell that story. But this

1206
01:00:29,519 --> 01:00:32,280
you you were so canceled, Catherine was when I checked out.

1207
01:00:32,519 --> 01:00:36,679
Speaker 2: I was. They keep going on and on about you know, oh,

1208
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,079
this book, the book, the book says, the book where

1209
01:00:39,159 --> 01:00:40,039
she slept with a guy.

1210
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 3: And this is some some huge thing, like what why

1211
01:00:44,039 --> 01:00:47,480
is everyone treating this like, you know, she murdered someone.

1212
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 2: Right, because apparently in the book that's how you know.

1213
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 1: I mean, if if those flashbacks that we're seeing are

1214
01:00:54,639 --> 01:00:57,159
actually what the book wrote, which it's pretty clear at

1215
01:00:57,199 --> 01:00:59,960
this point that it is the book, then the word

1216
01:01:00,119 --> 01:01:02,239
she can say about her is that she had an

1217
01:01:02,239 --> 01:01:05,239
affair with a kid, you know, broke it off with

1218
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:09,199
him and watched him drown, which makes her sound really cold.

1219
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:10,639
Speaker 3: But she's not a murderer.

1220
01:01:10,719 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: Like, I don't understand why her whole life is falling

1221
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,320
apart because of this fictional account which she didn't even

1222
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:21,679
really do anything all that terrible. Yeah, I just it's bad.

1223
01:01:22,079 --> 01:01:25,440
I'm sorry, I will finish it. I watched it because

1224
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,760
I but I don't know what Kate Blanchette was thinking,

1225
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:28,679
and well she.

1226
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 3: Probably thought it was going to be a difference.

1227
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know what Outpodo Quirone was thinking, like

1228
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,400
this is some bad That was a bad episode of Tell.

1229
01:01:36,639 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 2: It was really bad. Yeah, mean the whole time I

1230
01:01:39,199 --> 01:01:40,880
was like looking at you and going like, are you

1231
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:41,360
kidding me?

1232
01:01:41,639 --> 01:01:43,679
Speaker 3: What I kept saying, when is this ending? My god?

1233
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 1: Like, it's just it's it's a slot to get through

1234
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,760
at this point. We'll finish it. It's a shame. It

1235
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,559
started off slightly interesting, and man, I just don't know

1236
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:55,639
when I've seen a show go so far off a

1237
01:01:55,679 --> 01:01:58,039
cliff so like I was sort of in it, and

1238
01:01:58,159 --> 01:02:00,440
then by twenty minutes into this episode was like, oh,

1239
01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:01,800
this is terrible.

1240
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 2: I hope you know, we get at a point when

1241
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:07,840
she tells her story, I mean she is a little

1242
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:08,960
more clear about what.

1243
01:02:09,159 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 3: Happens, assuming that's coming.

1244
01:02:10,559 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: It's right, all right, the Jackhammers are literally about to

1245
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,159
start any minute. So we have got to wrap this up.

1246
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:21,159
Happy Halloween everyone, Thank you for your patience and we're

1247
01:02:21,199 --> 01:02:23,360
sorry we've been late with us so much. We are

1248
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,199
going to get another one out to you before we

1249
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,119
leave for Ireland next week. Until then, take care of yourselves,

1250
01:02:29,199 --> 01:02:29,840
love you mean it.

1251
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:30,559
Speaker 3: By bye bye