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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 3: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 3: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 3: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 3: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good evening, a
Speaker 3: brutal serial killer was stocking Omaha. But who would kill
Speaker 3: with such precision? Detective Derek Moys wasn't sure what he
Speaker 3: was dealing with when in March two thousand and eight,
Speaker 3: he walked into a home in an affluent Omaha neighborhood
Speaker 3: and was confronted with the bodies of an eleven year
Speaker 3: old boy and the housekeeper. Both had been murdered with
Speaker 3: kitchen knives plunged into their throats. Who would do something
Speaker 3: so vile and why? Lacking answers, Moys and other detectives
Speaker 3: working the case were stumped. Five years later, a strikingly
Speaker 3: similar crime occurred in which two more victims were brutally
Speaker 3: murdered with knives expertly thrust into their jugular veins. The
Speaker 3: modus operandi of the murders pointed MOIS and a special
Speaker 3: task force in the direction of looking for a serial killer,
Speaker 3: but no one could have anticipated that path would lead
Speaker 3: to the Department of Pathology at Creighton University. In Pathological
Speaker 3: the Murderous Rage of Doctor Anthony Garcia, authors Henry J.
Speaker 3: Cordyce and Todd Cooper, who covered the story for the
Speaker 3: Omaha World Herald, recount the dramatic tale of deep seated revenge,
Speaker 3: determined detectives, and the sensational trial of the doctor turned
Speaker 3: serial killer. The bo featuring this evening is Pathological the
Speaker 3: Murderous Rage of Doctor Anthony Garcia, with my special guest,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Henry J.
Speaker 5: Cortis. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 5: for this interview. Henry J.
Speaker 4: Cortis now Dan, Thanks for having me. I'm glad to
Speaker 4: join you from out here in Omaha.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. This is an incredible tale of
Speaker 5: doctor turned serial killer and some dedicated detectives that brought
Speaker 5: this man to justice. Finally, we talked about your background
Speaker 5: with the Omaha pardon me, the Omaha Nebraska, John.
Speaker 4: Held is the name of our paper, right, Thank you
Speaker 4: very much.
Speaker 5: I know this was a big case, but why did
Speaker 5: you feel it necessary? Why did you want to write
Speaker 5: this book? What was it about this case that made
Speaker 5: you compelled you to write.
Speaker 4: This Yeah, and it actually o victually wasn't going to
Speaker 4: be a book. I'll give you the background of how
Speaker 4: it all came about. The day that Garcia was arrested,
Speaker 4: I was at the press conference where the police chief
Speaker 4: announced it and the task force announced it, and afterwards
Speaker 4: I followed the chief back to his office. I was
Speaker 4: just a reporter covering the case of the world here
Speaker 4: and I followed him back to his office just to
Speaker 4: kind of get some you know, try to pump him
Speaker 4: for some extra information that would be exclusive just for
Speaker 4: our our readers. But I asked him that very day,
Speaker 4: I said, when all this is over, would you be
Speaker 4: willing to make your detectives available for interview about how
Speaker 4: this case was cracked. I didn't even know at the
Speaker 4: time who those detectives were, but I just had a
Speaker 4: sense that there would be an amazing story there. And
Speaker 4: my plan was to wasn't to write a book, but
Speaker 4: to to write a multi part narrative for the newspaper.
Speaker 4: In fact, I had already I soon after sketched out
Speaker 4: what I thought would be like an eight part narrative.
Speaker 4: It would run from a Sunday to a Sunday and
Speaker 4: our daily newspaper, but once I got once the trial
Speaker 4: was over, and once I got to sit down with
Speaker 4: those detectives, the case, the tale is so truly amazing
Speaker 4: and detailed that once I started to earth sit down
Speaker 4: and writing and I told my editor, this isn't just
Speaker 4: the series for the paper, this is a book. And
Speaker 4: then it turned out to be like fifty two thousand
Speaker 4: words worth of the Tale of Anthony Garcia.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, you start off with the reader immediately introducing some
Speaker 5: of these detectives that you have access to, and especially
Speaker 5: Detective Derek Moyce, and you open with him just coming
Speaker 5: to the crime scene of eleven year old Tom Hunter
Speaker 5: that we talked about in the introduction, and that Shirley
Speaker 5: Sherman who is a housekeeper for the family, for the
Speaker 5: Hunter family. So tell us about Detective Derres Morris and
Speaker 5: what he finds, and tell us a little bit more
Speaker 5: about the home in which this murder occurs and who
Speaker 5: are the owners?
Speaker 4: Right are? Yeah? Where this where this murder occurs. It's
Speaker 4: it's in a very affluent older neighborhood in Omahana and
Speaker 4: the home is the home of the husband and wife
Speaker 4: doctors and uh and Derek moys he's just the nighttime
Speaker 4: detective on the homicide squad, and so he the bodies
Speaker 4: are are discovered around five o'clock, and so he just
Speaker 4: happens to be assigned to it. But it's the first
Speaker 4: of just many remarkable instances where Derek Moys just happens
Speaker 4: to be the guy on the spot when when important
Speaker 4: things occur. In this case, so he's the first detective
Speaker 4: walk in the door. He walks in, there's some cleaning
Speaker 4: supplies set out in front of him, just kind of
Speaker 4: casually sit down there and then off off right to
Speaker 4: his to the left is the body of eleven year
Speaker 4: old boy with a knife. And not not only had
Speaker 4: he been stabbed in the neck and the knife had
Speaker 4: been left in his neck and so extreme and he
Speaker 4: continues the case. He walks into the kitchen just beyond
Speaker 4: where the boy is, sees a knife block on the counter.
Speaker 4: It's he recognizes right away that from the stainless steel handles,
Speaker 4: this is the knife. This is the block from which
Speaker 4: that knife came from. And uh, and he he knows
Speaker 4: that there are two bodies in the home. And after
Speaker 4: he goes through the kitchen, uh, he he comes upon
Speaker 4: the second body, the housekeeper, also with a knife with
Speaker 4: a stainless steel handle still stuck in her neck. And uh,
Speaker 4: you know, this is a detective who you know, Omaha
Speaker 4: has a share of homicides, but there's a detective that's
Speaker 4: used to dealing with you know, gang related shootings and
Speaker 4: and drug related crime. And and so he just sees
Speaker 4: right away this is wow. This is a huge departure
Speaker 4: from anything I've ever encountered. And the the knife wounds
Speaker 4: in the neck particularly baffled them. And in fact, they
Speaker 4: they would baffle him and and all of the detectives
Speaker 4: or for the next five years.
Speaker 5: You talk about what the police deduce quick enough in
Speaker 5: terms of speaking to Bill, William Hunter and Claire. So
Speaker 5: what do they find out in terms of what likely happened,
Speaker 5: even though they still don't have an idea of motive
Speaker 5: or any rationale to this thing. What can they determine
Speaker 5: from speaking to the parents in terms of timeline and
Speaker 5: what likely happened there from where they look at this time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Tom, Tom was a latch key kidd. He as
Speaker 4: eleven year old in the seventh grade, he tended to
Speaker 4: he'd get off his bus right in front of the
Speaker 4: home there at three o'clock and we know he did
Speaker 4: with the We have a video of from the bus
Speaker 4: that shows that happened, and and they typically would enter
Speaker 4: the house and and just do his thing. We know
Speaker 4: in this case he went down, he grabbed a doctor
Speaker 4: Pepper and went down and was playing video game. Because
Speaker 4: at the time his body was discovered by his father
Speaker 4: two hours later, the video game was still on. In fact,
Speaker 4: Bill Hunter referred to it as that awful music, you know,
Speaker 4: the background music of the video game that was playing.
Speaker 4: So Doctor Hunter came home around five o'clock, which, as
Speaker 4: we now know, was about two hours after the murders,
Speaker 4: because it was not long after Tom came home that
Speaker 4: their neighbors reported seeing a man, an olive skinned man,
Speaker 4: drive up the street kind of like he was scoping
Speaker 4: out addresses, pause in front of the Hunter home, continue
Speaker 4: around the corner park, make his way to the home
Speaker 4: very casually. About a half hour later, around three point thirty,
Speaker 4: equally very casually walking away. And the man had been
Speaker 4: driving a Silver CRV, And so that's pretty much all
Speaker 4: they had at that point. We know it's olive given man,
Speaker 4: the silver CRV. Nobody had a license plate. The thought
Speaker 4: that it was an out of state plate, and but
Speaker 4: that's all they had to go on. And and just
Speaker 4: the extremity of these types of murders. And part of
Speaker 4: the problem that the detectives faced right away was they
Speaker 4: didn't even know who the vic you know, intended victim was,
Speaker 4: you know, was it Tommy himself, the boy? Was it
Speaker 4: the housekeeper, was it the Hunter parents? And and because
Speaker 4: there was no clear motive, police ended up looking in
Speaker 4: a lot of different areas. And uh, the housekeeper had
Speaker 4: some uh in her family, there was some history of
Speaker 4: drug use, and she had been having a big conflict
Speaker 4: with her daughter's boyfriend and uh and and there had
Speaker 4: been some physical violence associated with him. And so the
Speaker 4: place kind of that was kind of a natural first
Speaker 4: place they looked because because there was a there there
Speaker 4: there was did appear to be a violent individual there.
Speaker 4: There had been a murder the previous year that happened
Speaker 4: in Omaha where a woman was stabbed to death, and
Speaker 4: in that case, the knife had been left in her neck,
Speaker 4: and which was just a very unusual thing. No one
Speaker 4: in Omaha could ever recall any case or that had happened,
Speaker 4: let alone two in a year. And so that case
Speaker 4: was and they had a suspect in that case who
Speaker 4: had not yet been arrested, and so they probe ties
Speaker 4: he may have had to anyone there in the house.
Speaker 4: And then the Hunters, of course were asked about patients
Speaker 4: and folks they worked with, and in fact they were
Speaker 4: questioned many times early on about that, and and Bill
Speaker 4: Hunter in particular, he just could not imagine anybody he
Speaker 4: had ever worked with or had ever known who could
Speaker 4: have done something like this. He just thought he had
Speaker 4: had no conflicts with anybody recently. Now, there were some
Speaker 4: other folks in the in the Creighton Pathology department, which
Speaker 4: is the where he worked, and there were some other
Speaker 4: folks who were suspected. The suspected a doctor who had
Speaker 4: been in the program a couple of years earlier, who
Speaker 4: was a Russian background, and who had been seen as
Speaker 4: kind of creepy variously. There were some people who who
Speaker 4: who thought he was a little bit shifty, and and
Speaker 4: so he was a suspect who many Bell Hunter didn't
Speaker 4: even think he was a suspect either, but several others
Speaker 4: that Creighton did, and he ended up getting a good look.
Speaker 4: But you know, of those three primary suspects early on,
Speaker 4: the violent boyfriend, the guy who had who they believed
Speaker 4: had committed a similar murder, and this Russian doctor. They
Speaker 4: were all pretty heavily vetted and they went nowhere. They
Speaker 4: didn't get they in all cases, they found that these
Speaker 4: people had an alibi for the time of the murders. Uh,
Speaker 4: and they were pretty stomped. And after a while they
Speaker 4: started focusing on Tommy's interaction and video gaming and online
Speaker 4: to think whether he had you know, this could have
Speaker 4: been some type of internet crime and UH. They looked
Speaker 4: a lot into his interactions and they found some interactions
Speaker 4: that concerned them and with with some with some folks,
Speaker 4: including in an online chat room where he was interacting
Speaker 4: with a guy who was much older. You know, this
Speaker 4: is a website that was for pre teens, and he
Speaker 4: was interacting with a guy who turned out was in college,
Speaker 4: you know, much older than than the the and so
Speaker 4: it's like, what is this college guy doing in this
Speaker 4: chat room? He was being vetted. So there were a
Speaker 4: lot of different ways that they looked early on, but
Speaker 4: all of them led led nowhere, and within a year
Speaker 4: the case was cold, was transferred to the cold case unit. UH.
Speaker 4: They followed up on st reluctant stuff, but to the
Speaker 4: great frustration of everyone in Omaham. The original case just
Speaker 4: didn't get anywhere.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about when they look at a possible motive,
Speaker 5: was there any indication of robbery or burglary? And then
Speaker 5: second the feature one of the very interesting unique things
Speaker 5: is how severe were those insignificant? Were those stabs to
Speaker 5: the throat and what was the they were characterists characterized
Speaker 5: by these were not They looked like the work of
Speaker 5: someone more expert in terms what we were talking about.
Speaker 4: So tell us about that, right, right, Yeah, the wounds
Speaker 4: were I mean that one of the they were so
Speaker 4: expertly done, you know, it was almost like a professional,
Speaker 4: you know, assassin had done them. You know, when they
Speaker 4: did the autopsy, they thought that, you know, all of
Speaker 4: the wounds and there were both of them had you know,
Speaker 4: up to a dozen stab wounds. They were all confined
Speaker 4: to the right side of the neck kind of just
Speaker 4: below the jawline, and which is where where the crowded
Speaker 4: our artery and is located, and and and and In fact,
Speaker 4: then in the autopsy they did find that in both victims,
Speaker 4: they ate croted our artery and the jugglar vein had
Speaker 4: both been completely severed. And and which would be a
Speaker 4: very quick way to kill somebody and capacitate somebody. And
Speaker 4: and so the thought was this, whoever did this knew
Speaker 4: what he was doing. Now if we can look back
Speaker 4: now and say, well, obviously it was a doctor and
Speaker 4: and and certainly that was thought that that was that
Speaker 4: was a possibility, which was one of the reasons that
Speaker 4: they they looked hard and to or at least look
Speaker 4: to some degree at the at the folks that the
Speaker 4: hunters could identify who they'd been associated with. But uh,
Speaker 4: but the the hunters, the folks that they steered them
Speaker 4: onto again, it just didn't take them anywhere. Now with
Speaker 4: this they say that for me, now, was there another
Speaker 4: part of that question? I think there was another part
Speaker 4: of the question earlier on, and I'm forgetting what that was. Now.
Speaker 4: We just loved it.
Speaker 5: When police looked at it, did they see any indication
Speaker 5: that there was robbery or burglary?
Speaker 4: Right? No, robbery, that was yeah. The house was, you know, nothing,
Speaker 4: there was nothing out of the ordinary that the only
Speaker 4: thing they found was a bunch of clothes. You know,
Speaker 4: Tommy's room was a mess. But his parents said, you
Speaker 4: know that was tommy. It looked like it had been ransacked,
Speaker 4: but that was not the case. And and all around
Speaker 4: there were valuables that were completely untouched. It became pretty
Speaker 4: clear robbery was not the motive here.
Speaker 5: Now you introduced some other characters obviously very important to this,
Speaker 5: and that is a Gaindra and Chandra h Utra, and
Speaker 5: they're also doctors in this pathology department as well. Tell
Speaker 5: us a little bit about this couple and what happens next.
Speaker 4: Right, right, so you know one of so five years later,
Speaker 4: the murders happened in March of two thousand and eight
Speaker 4: in the Hunter home. Well, now we're in May twenty thirteen,
Speaker 4: in fact, it's Mother's Day, more than five years later,
Speaker 4: and there are a couple of things happen. There's another
Speaker 4: doctor in the pathology department named as Chander Buttra who
Speaker 4: worked with mister Hunter and with another person who's going
Speaker 4: to become pretty important, the head of the department, which
Speaker 4: was Roger Brumback. Well, she was often a Mother's day
Speaker 4: outing with her husband and they as they're approaching home,
Speaker 4: they find there's a burglar alarm has been tripped at
Speaker 4: their home and so her husband they get home minutes later,
Speaker 4: husband checks it out finds that somebody had tried to
Speaker 4: force their way into the back of their home, had
Speaker 4: been rebuffed and able to get in, and then an
Speaker 4: alarm and sounded and they had left. It took a
Speaker 4: while for police to put this together because the Butchers
Speaker 4: did not originally report that attempted break in. They didn't
Speaker 4: think it was a big deal. But two days later,
Speaker 4: please show up at the home of doctor Roger Brumback,
Speaker 4: who again, like I said, was he was the head
Speaker 4: of the Creton Mythology apartment and colleague of both Bill
Speaker 4: Hunter and Chander. Buttra he and his wife were found
Speaker 4: murder in their home, and they had both be well.
Speaker 4: Roger had been shot, but they had both also been
Speaker 4: stabbed to death. In fact, they'd been stabbed to death
Speaker 4: with knives that were taken from the home, stabbed in
Speaker 4: the right sides of their necks. And so this this murder,
Speaker 4: these bodies are discovered two days after Mother's Day. And
Speaker 4: who was the first detective who walks in the door
Speaker 4: but Derek Moys and uh, the same one who had
Speaker 4: been on the case five years earlier. And he he's
Speaker 4: with a colleague named Scott Warner, and he right away
Speaker 4: starts noticing things that are very familiar to him and uh.
Speaker 4: The two victims another immaculate home, no sign of burglary,
Speaker 4: and both killed with with with knife wounds to their necks.
Speaker 4: Although in this case the the Roger Prumbback, it appeared
Speaker 4: had been initially accosted at the front door with a gun.
Speaker 4: The way that Derek Moys pieced it together was Roger
Speaker 4: someone showed up the front door, accosted Roger, shot him.
Speaker 4: There was a struggle with Roger Moore of the shots
Speaker 4: we were let off, but the cartridge eventually fell out
Speaker 4: of the gun, but not before Roger had been shot.
Speaker 4: The assailant then took the gun and used it to
Speaker 4: batter Mary in the head, his wife. He proceeds to
Speaker 4: go and get knives from the kitchen, gets ends up
Speaker 4: in a horrible fight with Mary where she's trying to
Speaker 4: fight off this man with the knife before she's subdued
Speaker 4: and just suffers very grievous wounds as she's trying to
Speaker 4: fight off this guy with the knife. And then after
Speaker 4: he killed Mary, he went over to Roger, who was
Speaker 4: also probably already dead. He'd been shot three times. But
Speaker 4: the assailant goes over to Roger, and just to make
Speaker 4: sure he's dead, he leaves that signature knife move wound
Speaker 4: in the side of of his and so Moist recognizes
Speaker 4: this right away, and he doesn't think, oh my god,
Speaker 4: these cases are related because you see some goofy things,
Speaker 4: but he was but his antenna was up. And then
Speaker 4: with the shortly after he makes his first casing of
Speaker 4: the home they place identify the victim to be Roger
Speaker 4: Brumback of the creat University Pathology department, and all of
Speaker 4: a sudden things are starting to fall into place.
Speaker 5: Here at the crime scene, they find a gun, but
Speaker 5: there is a problem with this gun, and they also
Speaker 5: describe that as likely part of the reason in the
Speaker 5: subduing of Mary, that this gun has been broken. Tell
Speaker 5: us what kind of gun that they find there, at
Speaker 5: least the parts are. And again this is important later
Speaker 5: in this.
Speaker 4: Truck right, because so the gun there's no gun at
Speaker 4: the theme, but there's the clip is there? It fell
Speaker 4: right in the doorway where was first assaulted. And then
Speaker 4: it was pretty clear when the person assaulted Mary with
Speaker 4: the gun, this now inoperable gun which has no clip
Speaker 4: in it, when when he struck her in the head,
Speaker 4: the gun broke, and because Derek moys who was kind
Speaker 4: of a gun nut, very quickly noticed the recoil spring
Speaker 4: and the rod and a and a piece of the
Speaker 4: frame that had broken off the front of the gun,
Speaker 4: which is what caused the other pieces to fall out.
Speaker 4: And so there were some gun pieces left behind, which
Speaker 4: which which the resident gun expert at the at the
Speaker 4: Omaha Police Department Uh very quickly determines to be a
Speaker 4: Smith and West with and Smith and Wesson St. Nine
Speaker 4: and and that does become important later on as as
Speaker 4: Derek moys Uh and the task force attempt to piece
Speaker 4: together what's happened here.
Speaker 5: You talk about the formation of this task force and
Speaker 5: this twelve person team three four member groups. Tell us
Speaker 5: about this specific team moyce here with Derek moyce and
Speaker 5: we mentioned Scott Warner. Tell us who the addition additional
Speaker 5: detectives are and their role in this team task force.
Speaker 4: Right. Yeah. Because of the similarity of the earlier crimes,
Speaker 4: the police, the chief decides the need to form a
Speaker 4: full task force and it was it was actually about
Speaker 4: twenty members on it, and Derek moyce and and the
Speaker 4: three detectives that were on his regular team in the
Speaker 4: Omaha Police Homicide Unit are both on that are on
Speaker 4: the task force as well, along with the I think,
Speaker 4: and there were even some detectives from other agencies to
Speaker 4: kind of give them a little extra manpower. But yes,
Speaker 4: so Derek was on the task force along with Scott Warner,
Speaker 4: and the two other detectives that become pretty important are
Speaker 4: Ryan Davis and Nick Herford. And what happened was so
Speaker 4: when the task force gets formed, Uh, Scott Warner had
Speaker 4: done a lot of work on the Russian, and so
Speaker 4: since the Russian had been in the pathology department, he's
Speaker 4: initially he all of a sudden becomes suspect number one
Speaker 4: again and so they they Scott Warner gets back on
Speaker 4: the trail of the Russian, you know, does he have
Speaker 4: an alibi for these killings as he seemed to they
Speaker 4: the first time around? And Davis and Herfurt there they
Speaker 4: have their roles and and Derek Morris has his initial
Speaker 4: role too, which was just to look into Mary Brumback,
Speaker 4: the wife, to see if there was anything in her
Speaker 4: background that that, you know, would anybody want to kill her.
Speaker 4: And that was his initial assignment and he spent a
Speaker 4: week on it. You know, vetting Mary, talking to people
Speaker 4: know her, you know, does she have any skeletons in
Speaker 4: their closet? It wasn't really a likely path to find
Speaker 4: this killer, but but it was work that needed to
Speaker 4: be done, and it very quickly, you know, with after
Speaker 4: doing about seven or eight of these interviews, Derek could see,
Speaker 4: you know, this isn't going anywhere. He goes to his sergeant, said,
Speaker 4: you know, this is a dead end. And the sergeant agrees,
Speaker 4: and he says, well, you know, there's a bunch of
Speaker 4: other guys that are going through the personnel records from
Speaker 4: Creighton because of the pathology department link between the two
Speaker 4: sets of murders. This time, they rather than just talking
Speaker 4: to the hunters and some others about who they thought
Speaker 4: was suspicious, they pulled all the personnel records from the
Speaker 4: pathology department from everyone who was working there or had
Speaker 4: worked there, and these folks were all the records were
Speaker 4: put into individual binders, and so the sergeant says, you know,
Speaker 4: these guys are going through those records. When I go in,
Speaker 4: I'll get you one of those binders and and you
Speaker 4: can work on that. And so the sergeant leaves and
Speaker 4: returns short thereafter with a binder, lays it on the
Speaker 4: desk of Derek Moys and the name on the binder
Speaker 4: is doctor Anthony Garcia. Again another one of those cases
Speaker 4: where Derek Moys is just the right night, in the
Speaker 4: right place all the time. In this case, he gets
Speaker 4: one binder out of the dozens that they had done,
Speaker 4: and it turned out to be the binder of the
Speaker 4: of the man who would become the prime suspect in
Speaker 4: these murders.
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Speaker 1: terms and conditions applying to a website for detail.
Speaker 5: Now you say that they have an idea of the
Speaker 5: connection with this pathology department, but they still have to
Speaker 5: go through again. They have suspects. How do they get
Speaker 5: to Anthony Garcia and having the necessary corroborative evidence to
Speaker 5: be able to say, you know, because these police are
Speaker 5: exploring every lead, how do they come to the conclusion
Speaker 5: Derek Moys and his team that absolutely this is a
Speaker 5: person that is not just a person of interest, but
Speaker 5: the suspect, all right.
Speaker 4: And he was not a person of interest when he
Speaker 4: picked up that binder. Even the doctor Bill Hunter, in
Speaker 4: his initial interviews after the second set of murders, still
Speaker 4: had not really put any kind of finger to Anthony Garcia.
Speaker 4: But he did finally mention that there was a couple
Speaker 4: of doctors who had been fired from Creighton many many
Speaker 4: years earlier, back in two thousand and one. This is
Speaker 4: even seven years, even before the Hunter killings. But he
Speaker 4: couldn't even remember the Garcia's name that he had been
Speaker 4: one of those two who had been fired, So he
Speaker 4: was not his profile. He had not been elevated at
Speaker 4: all to any degree. Derek Morris was really looking through
Speaker 4: a random minder at this point and he starts reading
Speaker 4: it and it's just a bunch of dry personnel records,
Speaker 4: but he very quickly realizes that, hey, this guy was fired,
Speaker 4: and there's some interesting things related to that, and he
Speaker 4: can see that he would the part of the firing
Speaker 4: related to Butra because he was having a big conflict
Speaker 4: with Buttra who was giving him bad reviews as because
Speaker 4: what Anthony Garcia was was he was a medical resident.
Speaker 4: He had come to Creighton in two thousand as a
Speaker 4: just a he as a fresh medical school graduate and
Speaker 4: who was looking to get certified in his specialty, which
Speaker 4: with his chosen specialty here is pathology. So he was
Speaker 4: one of several new residents who was coming to go
Speaker 4: through what should have been four years of training at Creighton.
Speaker 4: And so Derek Moyes quickly sees that, hey, he was fired.
Speaker 4: He didn't even make it a year. Within this thing,
Speaker 4: he had a conflict for future. And then he sees
Speaker 4: the letter of for the actual firing letter and the
Speaker 4: two names two signatures at the bottom are Bill Hunter
Speaker 4: and Roger Brumback. And so he's like, wow, this guy
Speaker 4: has motive to kill everyone, and so he again it's
Speaker 4: just motive, though they don't. He doesn't. Again, he doesn't
Speaker 4: have any more reason to think that this is their guy.
Speaker 4: But he starts to look into the background of the
Speaker 4: Anthony Garcia, who he sees now lives in Terre Haute, Indiana,
Speaker 4: And in the process of that and getting some record
Speaker 4: from the folks in Tera Hate, he ends up getting
Speaker 4: a driving history, vehicle registration history for Anthony Garcia, and
Speaker 4: it just pops off the page. To him, this is
Speaker 4: like the two days after he first picked up Garcia's book,
Speaker 4: that Garcia in March of two thousand and eight was
Speaker 4: driving a silver Honda CRV, the same type of vehicle
Speaker 4: that had been seen outside the Hunter Home. To him,
Speaker 4: this is like totally elevates this ole man to a
Speaker 4: new level. And he goes to his sergeant and he goes,
Speaker 4: I want Nick, Nick Herford, I want Ryan Davis. These
Speaker 4: are two guys on his regular homicide unit in OPD.
Speaker 4: And he goes, I want Nick and I want Ryan,
Speaker 4: and I want you guys to leave us the heck alone,
Speaker 4: because he kind of had a sense that they were
Speaker 4: on to their guy at that point.
Speaker 5: Now you say that in each individual member, and we'll
Speaker 5: go through that, and you talk about Davis and have
Speaker 5: his unique abilities and being very young and enthusiastic, and
Speaker 5: then you called Herford the nerd cops. So he has
Speaker 5: his skills in this and very very interesting. What is
Speaker 5: the next step for police once they have this gleam
Speaker 5: of information, when Moyes decides that this guy should be
Speaker 5: again a person of interest, how do they proceed? What's next?
Speaker 4: Right, so, they know he has motive, but they don't
Speaker 4: know if he's had the opportunity, and they don't know
Speaker 4: if he has the means yet. And so the opportunity
Speaker 4: means to show that he was in Omaha in March
Speaker 4: of two thousand and eight, or that he was in
Speaker 4: Omaha in May of twenty thirteen, and that's what he
Speaker 4: and Nick and Ryan work on. But the other thing
Speaker 4: they do so to do that, they request credit card
Speaker 4: records and phone records. And in the meantime, while they're
Speaker 4: waiting for those records to come in, after they've they've
Speaker 4: made the those requests, they look more into the background
Speaker 4: of doctor Garcia, and it becomes very apparent to them
Speaker 4: that yes, not only did this guy have motive, this
Speaker 4: guy had been very largely unsuccessful in his medical career,
Speaker 4: and it seemed like at critical moments that firing that
Speaker 4: he had undergone from Creighton years earlier would come back
Speaker 4: to haunt him. And I guess how we haven't mentioned
Speaker 4: what he was fired about. But he had been about
Speaker 4: eleven months into his pathology residency when he pulled a
Speaker 4: prank essentially on another resident who was taking a very
Speaker 4: high stakes exam that was going to determine whether he
Speaker 4: was going to be certified as a pathologist, and basically
Speaker 4: called up the man's wife while he was taking this
Speaker 4: exam and said he needs to come to Crayton right away,
Speaker 4: and if he doesn't, he's going to be fired. And
Speaker 4: they eventually figured out who made this synonymous call and
Speaker 4: that it was doctor Russia and that's why he was fired.
Speaker 4: But he was but he had he had been a
Speaker 4: complete misfit up to that point anyway, and was pretty
Speaker 4: it was he was on his way to getting drummed
Speaker 4: out UH at the end of his first year. But
Speaker 4: because of this, he didn't even make it through the
Speaker 4: first year. They just said he's you're gone now. And
Speaker 4: so this had this had had come back to haunt him,
Speaker 4: and so they did a lot to fill in the back.
Speaker 4: In fact, they found records that showed that he had
Speaker 4: been fired from another residency in early two thousand and
Speaker 4: eight at LSU UH and the reason the LSU people
Speaker 4: had fired him was because they had become aware that
Speaker 4: he had falsified his records when he applied for this
Speaker 4: LSU residency and had indicated that he had completed a
Speaker 4: full year at Creighton and that he had never been disciplined,
Speaker 4: which they found to be false, and so they fired him. Well,
Speaker 4: Nick Herford is the one who's going through those records
Speaker 4: and he realizes, holy count. When you looked at the
Speaker 4: day that this guy was fired at LSU, it was
Speaker 4: almost two weeks to the day before the murders in
Speaker 4: the Hunter Home. So that's all of a sudden, you know,
Speaker 4: It's not like this guy was waiting seven years to
Speaker 4: commit this. There was a much more immediate trigger that
Speaker 4: caused this to happen, and so they did more established
Speaker 4: motive and so then it came time again to try
Speaker 4: to show, Okay, he has the motive now, but did
Speaker 4: can we show he was an omaha? And the phone
Speaker 4: records they have requested from att for Garcia's cell phone,
Speaker 4: it took several weeks of the come in, but when
Speaker 4: they came in, they were very excited to get them.
Speaker 4: They look at them and they find on Mother's Day
Speaker 4: there was a single call in his call records, and
Speaker 4: it was a call that had gone unanswered, so he
Speaker 4: hadn't even answered the phone, but the records still showed
Speaker 4: that he had received a call that had gone to voicemail.
Speaker 4: And Nick Herford was the one who's going through these records,
Speaker 4: but the other guys were right over his shoulder because
Speaker 4: they knew this was a huge, you know, moment. And
Speaker 4: so the in the cell phone records, there were also
Speaker 4: a longitude and latitude number next to that call. Those
Speaker 4: were basically the location of the cell tower when that
Speaker 4: call was placed. And they saw the call had come
Speaker 4: in at five PM on that day, which was this
Speaker 4: would be on their timeline that they were working with
Speaker 4: about an hour and a half after the Brumbacks were killed.
Speaker 4: And so they put in the latitude and longitude number.
Speaker 4: And there was a funny thing that happened before that,
Speaker 4: but I won't spoil, but they put it in an
Speaker 4: in Bingo, a map comes up and they see some
Speaker 4: stuff that's very familiar to them that the essentially Garcia
Speaker 4: when that call had come to his phone, was basically
Speaker 4: just a little more than an hour east of Omaha.
Speaker 4: And they are very excited because they knew we got
Speaker 4: him now we got him, I mean they he's now
Speaker 4: a not a person of interest. Is this is what
Speaker 4: makes him a full fledged suspect. They now think they
Speaker 4: have the guy, but they still got a now set
Speaker 4: about to prove.
Speaker 5: It absolutely and use this as an opportunity to stop
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Speaker 5: percent off your first purchase. We talked about the team
Speaker 5: with Derek Moist and Scott Warner Herford and Nick Herdford
Speaker 5: and Ron Davis, Ryan Davis. Pardon me right now, they
Speaker 5: have to put this completely together, make a PowerPoint presentation
Speaker 5: to the prosecution to be able to state their case,
Speaker 5: hoping that they have enough of evidence, that they've done
Speaker 5: enough work and they can convince that prosecution to be
Speaker 5: able to be able to take the next steps to
Speaker 5: be able to capture him, arrest him, and successfully prosecute him.
Speaker 5: What does this team do next?
Speaker 4: Right right right that the the so it begins with
Speaker 4: right with with those same phone records that they've just
Speaker 4: used to show that he was in Omaha, the day
Speaker 4: of the or near Omaha, the day of the murders
Speaker 4: uh Nick herfort the the he starts going through the
Speaker 4: records to try to determine who is he calling you
Speaker 4: know and who you know, to see if there's any
Speaker 4: other evidence in there that that can helpful to them,
Speaker 4: and they know notice that he had made some a
Speaker 4: phone call to a place called Gander Mountain, which Gander
Speaker 4: Mountain didn't mean anything to Nick, but for Derek Moyes
Speaker 4: it did. He knew Gander Mountain was an outdoor outfitting store,
Speaker 4: and he also knew that they sold guns, and so
Speaker 4: seeing this calls to Gander Mountain again, it's just a hunch,
Speaker 4: I wonder if he could have bought a gun from
Speaker 4: Gander Mountain. So Ryan Davis goes out for with a
Speaker 4: search warrant through the Indiana State Police to get the
Speaker 4: gun records from Gander Mountain and they come back some
Speaker 4: days later, and sure enough they show that not only
Speaker 4: had Roger excuse me, Anthony Garcia bought a gun from
Speaker 4: Gander Mountain in the spring of twenty thirteen, not long
Speaker 4: before Roger Brumback was killed. He purchased an ST nine
Speaker 4: so boom that now they've they've kind of established the
Speaker 4: possible means, his possible means for committing these murders. And
Speaker 4: and then they also got much better information by this
Speaker 4: time on where Garcia was because, as I mentioned, they
Speaker 4: the detectives today used phone records and credit card records
Speaker 4: to try to place people are as certain place at
Speaker 4: a certain time. Well, the Garcia was having huge financial problems.
Speaker 4: The part of the problem, probably the reason he went
Speaker 4: on this rampage was he was just kind of hitting
Speaker 4: the end of his line here, and so he had
Speaker 4: tons of credit cards that he'd had at various times
Speaker 4: and canceled and had had and so the moist was
Speaker 4: the one who was going through the credit cards and
Speaker 4: they were just very extensive, and that he'd been going
Speaker 4: through these for weeks and wasn't get anywhere. Well, finally
Speaker 4: he got some credit card records from Region's Bank. And
Speaker 4: they had been slow coming in and he had he
Speaker 4: had been begging them to uh try you know, well,
Speaker 4: he modified his request. He just he really wanted to
Speaker 4: get he didn't know if if if this card was
Speaker 4: the card, but all the other cards had shown nothing,
Speaker 4: and they they got these records from Region's Bank, Uh,
Speaker 4: and they did show that around the time of the murders,
Speaker 4: there were a couple of credit card transactions that had
Speaker 4: taken place. One was in Omaha, Nebraska. It was that
Speaker 4: at what Moys found to be a chicken Wing restaurant,
Speaker 4: and and then the other one was at a convenience
Speaker 4: store right across the river from Omahon, Council of Loss, Iowa.
Speaker 4: It was a beer purchase that happened just a couple
Speaker 4: hours before the Brumbacks were murdered. So again now they
Speaker 4: they and in fact that not only did the convenience
Speaker 4: store have the sales record of that beer purchase, they
Speaker 4: had video, So they could now see video of Anthony
Speaker 4: Garcia driving up uh to this place right across the
Speaker 4: river from Omaha, going in and making his purchase. You know,
Speaker 4: he couldn't say, hey, somebody still my credit card, they
Speaker 4: he would, So they felt that they they can now
Speaker 4: conclusively prove that he was in Omaha at the time
Speaker 4: of the murders. And that's what made the task force
Speaker 4: finally and the prosecutors say, yeah, go get him now.
Speaker 5: You talk about that they had to have certain considerations
Speaker 5: to be able to capture him as well. That wasn't
Speaker 5: just a matter of thinking that he could go without
Speaker 5: a fight potentially, So they have to have plans in
Speaker 5: case something does happen. How does how do they finally
Speaker 5: make the capture of him? And is it sensational or not?
Speaker 4: Not about Yeah? Yeah with everything in this case nothing
Speaker 4: and everything turns into a big event and uh in
Speaker 4: this case, uh they they they the task force flies
Speaker 4: into Terra Indianapolis on a Sunday, they drive to Terror
Speaker 4: Hate and the plan is to drive ter Hate and
Speaker 4: assemble with the Indiana State Police and then early Monday
Speaker 4: morning before dawne kicking his door and make the arrest.
Speaker 4: You know, they know this is a person who's killed
Speaker 4: four people, so they have to consider that he's dangerous. Well,
Speaker 4: they get to Indianapolis and they immediately see that, oh
Speaker 4: my gosh, he's on the move. They'd been pinging his
Speaker 4: cell phone. They've been getting a half hour every half
Speaker 4: hour getting an email from the cell phone company telling
Speaker 4: them the location of the cell phone. They could see
Speaker 4: that Garcia was on the move. In fact, he'd left
Speaker 4: Indiana and was on his in Illinois and was headed south.
Speaker 4: So they had to reassess their plan so that once
Speaker 4: they arrived in Terra hate They decided that two FBI
Speaker 4: agents who were part of the task force would would
Speaker 4: head south into Illinois. I try to locate him and
Speaker 4: tail him and get on his tail, see what he's
Speaker 4: gonna do. The hope was that he was just taking
Speaker 4: a little business trip or something and would be coming
Speaker 4: back to Terra Haute. But they had to prepare for
Speaker 4: the possibility that that he was he was he was
Speaker 4: on his way. They didn't know where they could he
Speaker 4: be working, could he be fleeing, had he learned about them?
Speaker 4: Had They didn't really know what what would had happened,
Speaker 4: And as it turned out, as will later find, looks
Speaker 4: like he was on his way to go kill more people.
Speaker 4: So the FBI agents they they they they locate the
Speaker 4: the They do locate his car at a hotel uh
Speaker 4: and outside of town, a small town in off the
Speaker 4: interstate in uh in Illinois, and they set up outside.
Speaker 4: There comes a little bit of a snapoo again you
Speaker 4: know the all de deals of that. But the essentially
Speaker 4: the next morning he he ends up leaving. Garcia leaves
Speaker 4: without them noticing. They go into uh uh panic mode
Speaker 4: and chase him down. They eventually do locate him and
Speaker 4: then they and then they're just tailing him. It's it's
Speaker 4: early in the morning, he's driving south. They don't know
Speaker 4: where where he's going. And at this point there it's
Speaker 4: he's getting close to leaving Illinois and uh heading into Kentucky,
Speaker 4: I believe is the state that borders there, and they
Speaker 4: in downstate Illinois at this point they're like, we can't
Speaker 4: allow him. It's very obviously he's not going back to
Speaker 4: terror hope, and we don't want him to leave Illinois
Speaker 4: because we're already engaged with the Illinois State Police here. Uh,
Speaker 4: let's stop him before he hits the border. And so
Speaker 4: just about thirty miles before the border h some and
Speaker 4: again there's kind of interest noting nothing just happens normally
Speaker 4: in this case, but there is kind of thing how
Speaker 4: how the arrest ended up going down to But the
Speaker 4: state troopers do are able to make the arrest that morning,
Speaker 4: and that they find that Garcia is drunk, completely drunk,
Speaker 4: and they take him in for a d UI. But
Speaker 4: but he shortly after finds out that he's got way
Speaker 4: more problems than just a DUI on his hands.
Speaker 5: What's incredible is what they find at the terre haute
Speaker 5: residence where Garcia was living. Tell us about what they
Speaker 5: find when they get in.
Speaker 4: Right, And this is where Nick Herford and Ryan Davis
Speaker 4: are back in the story again because they're they're the
Speaker 4: ones who are who are going to do the search
Speaker 4: warrant on his home while Mois and Warner head south
Speaker 4: to interview try to interview Garcia. Ian you can imagine
Speaker 4: how how well that went. He lured up very quickly.
Speaker 4: But so Davis and Herford are the ones who are
Speaker 4: going through the home, and you know, they see this this.
Speaker 4: They go to the very nice home in a nice neighborhood.
Speaker 4: It has a Ferrari park in the driveway, you know,
Speaker 4: and it's all very pretentious. And they get in and
Speaker 4: then get inside and it's it's a completely different picture.
Speaker 4: You know, outside do you think this is the homeless
Speaker 4: successful doctor. They get inside, they find that there's almost
Speaker 4: no furniture in their place. There's not even a bed.
Speaker 4: There's an air mattress set out on the floor that
Speaker 4: Garcia was sleeping in, and there's places a mess. Other
Speaker 4: than there are some records set out on the table
Speaker 4: and nice piles with you know, we're all at right
Speaker 4: angles kind of the important documents of his life. And
Speaker 4: then the sink they find a kind of amateur effort
Speaker 4: to destroy a bunch of documents, and they had been
Speaker 4: put in the sink with some kind of chemical with
Speaker 4: the hope that that would destroy them. But Davis and
Speaker 4: her pretty quickly see that some of them include some
Speaker 4: writings that appear to be pretty incriminating, talking about breaking
Speaker 4: into homes and covering up his fingertips, and and they're like,
Speaker 4: I think we need to keep this stuff, and so
Speaker 4: so they kind of the scene they found in the
Speaker 4: home was just, frankly, just bilar and and it's the first,
Speaker 4: as as Herfert later says, this is the first indications
Speaker 4: we we got that not only we were dealing with
Speaker 4: on homicidal doctor, dealing with one that was kind of
Speaker 4: a little bit office rocker.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. What they do in their investigation, too, is they
Speaker 5: go back and as you include in your book too,
Speaker 5: they go into his entire background of his family life
Speaker 5: growing up, but more importantly some of these psych evaluations
Speaker 5: and his interactions with medical staff along the way. What
Speaker 5: do they find in terms of some of those psych
Speaker 5: evaluations and what's contained therein right, some.
Speaker 4: Of that stuff didn't come along. It wasn't really revealed
Speaker 4: until a trial, but they but they do. But essentially
Speaker 4: they look what they learned the Texas that they while
Speaker 4: the while the Moist and those guys were hitting Terra
Speaker 4: Hate the werother detectives that head west out to California,
Speaker 4: which was where Garcia had grown up, and that's where
Speaker 4: they also knew the Silvery CRV was. His family still
Speaker 4: had it all these years later, five years after the
Speaker 4: Hunter murders, and so they are heading out there to
Speaker 4: impound the vehicle, but they also start interviewing his family,
Speaker 4: and they start interviewing people who know Garcia, and and
Speaker 4: kind of a narrative starts to emerge that now that
Speaker 4: Garcia was he hadn't even really even wanted to be
Speaker 4: a doctor. It had never been his thing. He'd been
Speaker 4: kind of pushed into it by his family. He was
Speaker 4: academically probably not set up to do it as i
Speaker 4: Q as average as could be. He had a re disability.
Speaker 4: So he'd entered medical school reading at about a fifth
Speaker 4: grade level. If you can imagine what that would be
Speaker 4: like to try to get through medical school when you're
Speaker 4: when you're reading at a grade school level. Now I
Speaker 4: don't know what this says about our medical system. That
Speaker 4: he did get through medical school and even passed his exams.
Speaker 4: In some cases, it took a lot of extra efforty
Speaker 4: it took him an extra year to get through medical school,
Speaker 4: and he had to get special education accommodations, and it
Speaker 4: took him several tries to pass his his board exams,
Speaker 4: but he did. He he passed them. He became doctor Garcia.
Speaker 4: But then to to really be a successful doctor, though,
Speaker 4: you have to become then certified in a in a specialty.
Speaker 4: And what they found was that he failed miserably whenever
Speaker 4: he tried to do that. They learned that he had
Speaker 4: first the Creighton Pathology program that he was drummed out.
Speaker 4: That wasn't even his first residency that they found there
Speaker 4: was another one even before that in New York, and
Speaker 4: that he had he had failed at based based on
Speaker 4: his personality and just his ineptitude, And then the Creighton
Speaker 4: one had happened, and and then he even after Creighton,
Speaker 4: he had still landed in another residency in Illinois and
Speaker 4: he had failed at that one. And then the last
Speaker 4: straw was the fourth and final residency, which was the
Speaker 4: one that had happened in uh in LSU. Now, despite
Speaker 4: the fact he didn't have a specialty, he was able
Speaker 4: to get work, you know, doing kind of health checks,
Speaker 4: you know, stuff that you know, taking blood pressure, you know,
Speaker 4: going to a poise of business and and and you know,
Speaker 4: it wasn't lucrative work, but he was able to get
Speaker 4: some work. And and the reason he was in terre
Speaker 4: haute was he was working in a prison and was
Speaker 4: was doing health care for prisoners. And as you can imagine,
Speaker 4: our prisoners must not get the finest of healthcare because
Speaker 4: after Anthony Garcia was one of the people who was
Speaker 4: caring for them at the federal prison in in Illin
Speaker 4: or in Indiana rather. And but even that that eventually
Speaker 4: he just it's very clear by the time he shortly
Speaker 4: after he leaves Creton that he has some mental health issues.
Speaker 4: He was battling depression. And he landed after he bounced
Speaker 4: out of the LSU residency, or rather the Illinois residency
Speaker 4: in Chicago, he in about two thousand and three, ends
Speaker 4: up back home in California. He even thinks about becoming
Speaker 4: a car mechanic, and his parents said, you know, you
Speaker 4: don't have to do this doctor thing. But he somehow
Speaker 4: between two thousand and three and two thousand and seven,
Speaker 4: after he thought about going to law school, I thought
Speaker 4: about doing a lot of different things. He ends up
Speaker 4: back in psychiatry, and that's what the LSU residency was for,
Speaker 4: and it could be his own mental his own struggles
Speaker 4: with mental health was what had generated this interest in
Speaker 4: psychiatry and the so he failed in that one. He
Speaker 4: ends up back in, like I said, doing this work
Speaker 4: at this prison in Indiana. But then he loses that
Speaker 4: job too, and and at this point he's just in
Speaker 4: a real spiral. His mental health is. He has a
Speaker 4: lot of bizarre interactions with law enforcement, nothing criminal, but
Speaker 4: just making calls to law enforcement saying that he was
Speaker 4: he was suicidal. He seems like he's constantly drunk. He
Speaker 4: shows up at workplaces drunk, and and his and he's
Speaker 4: about to lose his home to this foreclosure. He's just
Speaker 4: on this horrible downward spiral. And it's in the midst
Speaker 4: of that that the Brumback killing that occurred. And and
Speaker 4: he had continued to spiral downward right up until the
Speaker 4: point he was arrested. And like I said, they would
Speaker 4: get evidence because not only would they find the evidence
Speaker 4: in Terre Haute in California that showed just what a
Speaker 4: downwards by all this guy was in there, Derek Moyes
Speaker 4: s and Scott Warner would find some pretty significant evidence
Speaker 4: in his car that he had been driving when he
Speaker 4: was arrested in Illinois, which included a sledgehammer, a crowbar,
Speaker 4: a new gun, and his old LSU lab coat taken
Speaker 4: out of mothballs. You know, seven or you know. By
Speaker 4: this point, it's more than five years after he's left LSU,
Speaker 4: and the road, the interstate he was on was a
Speaker 4: road that would take you to Shreveport, Louisiana, which is
Speaker 4: where this health science center is located. It becomes pretty
Speaker 4: obvious to them he was on his way to kill again.
Speaker 4: And as we learned once Nick Herford post arrest begins
Speaker 4: his work in digital forensics, which is a really fascinating
Speaker 4: part of this case, we learned that these doctors at
Speaker 4: LSU weren't even probably his only intended victims still, that
Speaker 4: there were still others who were on Anthony Garcia his radar.
Speaker 5: Yes, you talk about the work that he Nick Herdford does.
Speaker 5: He goes to Apple and he gets access to Garcia's
Speaker 5: account he goes into his cloud account and down loans
Speaker 5: all the information that was on his phone, and he
Speaker 5: sees it everything where he was eating, where he called from,
Speaker 5: all the GPS entries and coortinates. And then you also
Speaker 5: have the tablet. He also looked at the tablet that
Speaker 5: most people wouldn't maybe do what he did with it,
Speaker 5: but on the tablet they found a lot of information
Speaker 5: and like you say, plans for other doctors that he
Speaker 5: was going to nact revenge on.
Speaker 4: I didn't know much about digital forensics until I talked
Speaker 4: to Nick and saw his work, and it's just fascinating.
Speaker 4: And all I can say, if you're a criminal and
Speaker 4: ucare a cell phone, you're an idiot. Because the stuff
Speaker 4: that they were able to take off of Garcia's phone,
Speaker 4: they essentially were able to place him at the Chicken restaurant,
Speaker 4: opening up Google and googling Roger Brumback's address. And because
Speaker 4: we know that his initial target when he came to
Speaker 4: Omahamoud had actually been buttra that we as we know
Speaker 4: that one had been foiled and it wasn't that Nick
Speaker 4: was able to show that after that within minutes after
Speaker 4: that failed attempt at Bututro's he sits down at a
Speaker 4: chicken restaurant apparently when the he opened up Google Map
Speaker 4: and it said Google would like to use your location services,
Speaker 4: and he said yes, and he placed himself right there
Speaker 4: out at the restaurant when he when he googled Roger
Speaker 4: Brumback's address, and so he's able to literally show him
Speaker 4: at the chicken restaurant, plotting the the killing of Roger Brumback.
Speaker 4: Right there, finds lots of other incriminating stuff on the phone,
Speaker 4: stuff that he had other searches for other victims, mapping
Speaker 4: locations to other victims' homes and uh, trying to come
Speaker 4: up with other criminal ways to make money. Like you said,
Speaker 4: he in this in this spiral at the time. And uh,
Speaker 4: and just and the way that Nick finds it. You know,
Speaker 4: sometimes this is stuff that he's deleted from the phone,
Speaker 4: but that isn't enough to stop Nick. He has he
Speaker 4: has other ways of of of workarounds to find to
Speaker 4: find what he was looking for. And and and one
Speaker 4: of the last things Nick does is just makes a
Speaker 4: general search through the phone data for the word revenge
Speaker 4: because because the thought is that you know, this was
Speaker 4: his his motive. And sure enough he finds that Brumback
Speaker 4: or Garcia, had made a search on his phone for
Speaker 4: the words shall I not revenge? You know, which is
Speaker 4: a line from shakespeare Act actually The Merchant of Venice.
Speaker 5: You also talk about one last thing that they do,
Speaker 5: just to do, I gotta put the cherry on top
Speaker 5: this sunday here in that they try to they find
Speaker 5: an innovative and novel way of trying to trace that
Speaker 5: gun or parts of that gun.
Speaker 4: Told us a little right. Yeah, this is more than
Speaker 4: a year after Garcia's arrest now, but Derek Moys is
Speaker 4: still working the case and he's an obsessive guy. Derek.
Speaker 4: People are gonna love Derek Moys. He's just very interesting detective.
Speaker 4: He's very driven, he's very much his own guy, has
Speaker 4: tattoos going all the way down his arms, and he's
Speaker 4: not necessarily a buy the book. I mean when it
Speaker 4: comes to his work, he's by the book, but he
Speaker 4: doesn't like to wear the department dress code and his
Speaker 4: tattees are often shown below his works. His shirt pleaves
Speaker 4: and he's a Buddhist and he's a very interesting guy.
Speaker 4: He but he's also very obsessive about his cases and
Speaker 4: the fact that they had not found the gun, continued
Speaker 4: to bother him. You know, they had the records that
Speaker 4: showed that he owned it estein Naim. They had some
Speaker 4: pieces of what appeared to be an st time, but
Speaker 4: they didn't have the actual gun. And Moyst was bothered
Speaker 4: by this, and he was ready to contact every law
Speaker 4: enforcement agency between Omaha and Terra Ho to try to
Speaker 4: see if any of them had found the gun, because
Speaker 4: the idea was that he had likely ditched it somewhere
Speaker 4: between Omaha and when it his return home to Tara Hope.
Speaker 4: But Warner kind of talked to him and they were like,
Speaker 4: there has to be a better way to do this.
Speaker 4: And you know, we don't have any good database on guns.
Speaker 4: The only database is one that you can search for
Speaker 4: if you have a missing or lost gun, you can
Speaker 4: search to see if anyone has turned it in. Well,
Speaker 4: and that wasn't like the gun Moist knew wasn't likely
Speaker 4: to be in there because because Garcia would never report
Speaker 4: that gun missing or lost. But Warner had this idea
Speaker 4: that's like, well, what if we searched the searches, what
Speaker 4: if there were what would we do if we were
Speaker 4: law enforcement agency and we found this gun, Well, we
Speaker 4: would run it through this database to see if it
Speaker 4: was lost or stolen. So Warner had this idea, well,
Speaker 4: can we search the searches to see if anybody has
Speaker 4: ever searched for this gun, because if they have, that's
Speaker 4: it's an indication they might have it. And and the
Speaker 4: technician and the department said, well, it's not really what
Speaker 4: we do, but you know, she said, I'll see if
Speaker 4: it's possible. And sure enough, Moyce gets an email in
Speaker 4: his from her the next day saying, hey, there was
Speaker 4: one other search that wasn't Omaha and Clark County in Illinois,
Speaker 4: and gives them the phone number and he calls them,
Speaker 4: and sure enough, a matter of months after the Brumback killings,
Speaker 4: there was a guy, and it's kind of a funny story,
Speaker 4: that had found the gun right along the side out
Speaker 4: of the road in Illinois, not far from Terre Haute.
Speaker 4: And so, you know, Garcia is no criminal mastermind. You know,
Speaker 4: there's probably a million different ways he could have ditched
Speaker 4: that gun, but in this case, he had just dropped
Speaker 4: it by the side of the road. And because of that,
Speaker 4: and because of this just doggedness of Derek Moyes, you
Speaker 4: know they were able to find the gun.
Speaker 5: Let's fast forward to the trial October third, twenty sixteen.
Speaker 5: It arrives and it begins. In that interim they found
Speaker 5: somebody that would help them with the more difficult part
Speaker 5: of this case. They put all four murders together, even
Speaker 5: though they were five years apart. The murders of Tom
Speaker 5: Hunter and Shirley Sherman were more difficult and more circumstantial.
Speaker 5: In this book almost fiction, like a person comes to
Speaker 5: be this our witness, and her name is Cecila Hoffman.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about the emergence of Cecila
Speaker 5: Hoffman and in significance to this case.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's first of all, just to tell you about
Speaker 4: this trial. This trial is the most sensational trial in
Speaker 4: the state of Nebraska since Charles dark Weather in nineteen
Speaker 4: fifty nine. And because these murders have been so high profile,
Speaker 4: and you know, even when there have been big murders,
Speaker 4: they typically did wouldn't off and go to trial, and
Speaker 4: Garcia did. He took his case to trial. There were
Speaker 4: four murders. Obviously, they had they had him pretty much
Speaker 4: nailed on the Brumback killings. They had the weapon, they
Speaker 4: had him placed in Omaha with the credit card on
Speaker 4: the phone records, they had obviously our kinds of motive,
Speaker 4: and so they that was a pretty slammed dunk case
Speaker 4: on those killings. But the Hunter killings that was more problematic.
Speaker 4: They had the similarity between those killings in the Brumback killing,
Speaker 4: so you know, that's the reason they tried them together.
Speaker 4: They hoped that they could use the strong much stronger
Speaker 4: evidence in the Brumback case to help convict him of
Speaker 4: the Hunter killings. But they and they had the fact
Speaker 4: that he drove a silver CRV and that he was
Speaker 4: they was olive skin, like millions of other people out there,
Speaker 4: So they that was all they had and they didn't
Speaker 4: have anything else. They weren't able to ever get anything
Speaker 4: that placed him in Omaha. You know, this was five
Speaker 4: years after the fact by the time they identify him,
Speaker 4: So they don't have much of a It's a very
Speaker 4: very thin and circumstantial case they have in the Hunter
Speaker 4: killings except for one thing. Davis and Herfert when after
Speaker 4: they do the search of the home in Taratt HOAt,
Speaker 4: they they they're interviewing people in the orbit of Anthony
Speaker 4: Garcia and they learn about his affinity for strip clubs,
Speaker 4: and through that they learned about Cecilia Hoffmann, who was
Speaker 4: a stripper who had a bit of a relationship with
Speaker 4: Panthony Garcia. It wasn't the kind of a relationship he wanted.
Speaker 4: She was just using him to get this big spender
Speaker 4: to spend money on him. He had taken a true
Speaker 4: interest in her, and they they and there was talk
Speaker 4: that that Cecilia had something to say about what what
Speaker 4: Garcia and something he had said to her, and so
Speaker 4: Nick and and Ryan track her down and uh, and
Speaker 4: you know, they weren't sure whether she'd be credible. You know,
Speaker 4: she is a stripper after all, And but she sits
Speaker 4: down with them and they find her to be very honest,
Speaker 4: very straightforward, gets very emotional as she talks about what
Speaker 4: had happened. And she mentioned that, yeah, there was a
Speaker 4: time when when Garcia had told her that he had
Speaker 4: he had once killed quote a young boy in an
Speaker 4: old woman. And I mean it was tantamount to a confession,
Speaker 4: you know, of the of the killings in Omaha in
Speaker 4: two thousand and eight and h and so there was
Speaker 4: all kinds of court fights as to whether this was
Speaker 4: going to be admissible or not. But but it prevailed,
Speaker 4: and she became by far the star witness at trial
Speaker 4: because because she is represents the most telling evidence linking
Speaker 4: Anthony Garcia to the killings of Tom Hunter and Shirley
Speaker 4: Sherman in two thousand and eight.
Speaker 5: It's interesting that you include the conversation. So we you
Speaker 5: just mentioned that he had admitted to her, but how
Speaker 5: what would what, yeah, crazy conversation would come up. So
Speaker 5: tell us about the conversation that elicit to this.
Speaker 4: Right the you know, as I said, it was kind
Speaker 4: of the relationship was kind of a one way relationship.
Speaker 4: It was a business relationship for Cecilia. But but Garcia,
Speaker 4: you know, she was bringing him along for the money,
Speaker 4: and he but he was truly interested in her and
Speaker 4: and and he was starting to get kind of weird,
Speaker 4: and so she finally, you know, it's a business thing.
Speaker 4: I need to break this off and let one of
Speaker 4: the other dancers take over because he's trying to get
Speaker 4: too personal. And so she outside the club during a
Speaker 4: smoke break one night, She's said it's time and she said,
Speaker 4: you know, doctor Tony, you know it's really not going
Speaker 4: to work with us, because you know, you're a good guy.
Speaker 4: You're a doctor and I'm a bad girl. And he goes, well,
Speaker 4: I'm not such a good guy. In fact, I've killed people.
Speaker 4: And so the reason he admitted to it was he
Speaker 4: thought he was going to impress her that I don't know,
Speaker 4: I'm a bad guy too, so we can be together.
Speaker 4: And that's when he made this admission to her, and
Speaker 4: she kind of dismiss did at the time, didn't think
Speaker 4: much of it. And it wasn't until Nick Davis or
Speaker 4: Nick Davis, Nick Herford, and Ryan Davis sat down with
Speaker 4: her for the first time that she realized, Wow, holy cow,
Speaker 4: this really did happen. And her trial and so and so,
Speaker 4: like I said, she becomes the most sensational witness at trial,
Speaker 4: and and and the when people read that part of
Speaker 4: the book, I mean her her testimony is sensational, and
Speaker 4: it is and and it produces some So she let's
Speaker 4: just say, she turns out despite the defense's efforts to
Speaker 4: impune her integrity, she turns out to be a great witness.
Speaker 4: And there's some very very dramatic moments that occur at
Speaker 4: trial because of that.
Speaker 5: Absolutely you talked about that normally that there isn't and
Speaker 5: even though it's an adversarial system where it looks like
Speaker 5: they're in competing against each other. But this one looked
Speaker 5: like all out combat. It was just a little bit
Speaker 5: about the model, the model team. And and really when
Speaker 5: you when you when you characterize it as as the
Speaker 5: you know, kind of the defense that you normally don't see,
Speaker 5: why is that? What was it about the defense that
Speaker 5: you just normally don't see?
Speaker 4: Right? Yeah, this was the prosecution in the and and
Speaker 4: the Anthony guard was defended by a team called the Matas.
Speaker 4: It was a father son and wife combination. And and uh,
Speaker 4: they were from Chicago, and they didn't really care what
Speaker 4: anybody Omaha thought about him, and they they took a
Speaker 4: very as as even Mada referred to it during a
Speaker 4: court hearing I was attending one day, he said, we
Speaker 4: can afford to take a scorched earth policy because we
Speaker 4: don't practice here normally. And and so they just everything
Speaker 4: was combative and they were fighting a prosecutor on everything.
Speaker 4: And and and Mada, the younger Mada male in particular,
Speaker 4: was just had a fiery temper and when he would
Speaker 4: just lose it in hearings and he'd start yelling and uh,
Speaker 4: and that's what also was also going on at trial,
Speaker 4: and in fact, the most climactic moment in the trial uh,
Speaker 4: and features a moment when when he's yelling at the
Speaker 4: top of his voice at so so Ya Hoffmann as
Speaker 4: as she's sitting there on the stand. Uh. They're just
Speaker 4: uh unbelievable. I mean, like I said, this case had everything,
Speaker 4: I mean nothing ever, nothing about this case was ever normal,
Speaker 4: and that includes her right right up to the point
Speaker 4: he's at trial.
Speaker 5: This is a death penalty case. And at the same
Speaker 5: time you talk about all the attendants that's there. Bill
Speaker 5: Hunter doesn't show up, Doctor Bill doesn't show up because
Speaker 5: he has PTSD result of finding his son and the homemaker.
Speaker 5: So his wife goes, she attends, and you also have
Speaker 5: all of the people that attended, tell us the cast
Speaker 5: that attends, this from the family members, and then tell
Speaker 5: us what happens at trial, right right.
Speaker 4: So you know, I got to know the Hunter family
Speaker 4: pretty well as a result of working on this book,
Speaker 4: and they are remarkably strong couple. They actually still live
Speaker 4: in the same home where their son was killed. And
Speaker 4: you might think, how could they do that? And it
Speaker 4: has to do with a with the a. They are
Speaker 4: just very strong people, and and B they said, you know,
Speaker 4: this is where our memories were. You know, we raised
Speaker 4: three boys in this home. And you know, they to them,
Speaker 4: this wasn't the home where their youngest son was killed.
Speaker 4: This is the home where this family had just created,
Speaker 4: you know, decades of memory as the boys were growing up.
Speaker 4: And and and so Claire Hunter is is very strong,
Speaker 4: and she is a trial every day. She's uh, she
Speaker 4: wants to she wants to see, she wants to see
Speaker 4: and hear it all with Bill. You know, he had
Speaker 4: you know, he had suffered for PTSD for a year
Speaker 4: after you know, you imagine what it's like to walk
Speaker 4: into your home and find your son with a knife
Speaker 4: in his neck. And so it had been very difficult him.
Speaker 4: But but I will say this, even though he stayed
Speaker 4: away from the trial, he had to testify a trial.
Speaker 4: He had to testify about finding his son and he
Speaker 4: had to and then he had he came back again
Speaker 4: to tell the very long history that he had with
Speaker 4: Anthony Garcia and what had happened back in Crayton in
Speaker 4: two thousand and two thousand and one that led to
Speaker 4: the firing. And Bill was very very very strong witness
Speaker 4: at trial. But because of the concerns about PTSD. He
Speaker 4: wasn't going to sit there through the corners reports or
Speaker 4: any thing like that. But his wife did, you know,
Speaker 4: she was a very strong person also at the trial
Speaker 4: every day where Shirley Sherman's family, you know, she we
Speaker 4: haven't talked much about Shirley or really any of the victims.
Speaker 4: And that's one of the things I love about Pathological.
Speaker 4: We're able to go deep into the backgrounds of the
Speaker 4: victims here so people can see what was lost and
Speaker 4: who was lost. And it wasn't just the promised seven
Speaker 4: eleven year old boy who was gifted and very smart
Speaker 4: and was bound for great things. It was you know,
Speaker 4: Shirley Sherman was you know, she was kind of the
Speaker 4: glue of her family. And she had sacrificed a lot
Speaker 4: in her life too for her family and to keep
Speaker 4: her family together and as a single parent and caring
Speaker 4: for an elderly mother. And and and two of her
Speaker 4: brothers were and her son were both also regular as
Speaker 4: at trial every day, kind of in honor of you know,
Speaker 4: just this family matriarch that had been lost. And of
Speaker 4: course the brobacks were you know, they were wonderful people too,
Speaker 4: and and uh Roger very successful doctor, and and and
Speaker 4: Mary uh just a very compassionate, giving person and uh
Speaker 4: and uh so that those victims family, the Brumbacks did
Speaker 4: generally stayed away from the courtroom, but the Waite family
Speaker 4: and Claire Hunter they were they were there every day
Speaker 4: and and and it led to a kind of a
Speaker 4: neat scene once the verdict finally came down, where you
Speaker 4: had a room where the prosecutors, the victims families all
Speaker 4: gathered right after the verdict. Generally it's it's a meeting
Speaker 4: that is typically held where the prosecutors tell them, Okay,
Speaker 4: here's what happens next. You know, there'll be a sentencing hearing.
Speaker 4: You know, it's really more just an informational thing. But
Speaker 4: but in the end, uh, the task force detectives including
Speaker 4: Derek moyce and Nick Herfurt and Warner, they all end
Speaker 4: up coming into this room too. And so here gathering
Speaker 4: one place, you have all of the significant players, from
Speaker 4: the detectives who cracked the case, to the prosecutors to
Speaker 4: the families of the victims. They're all gathering one place.
Speaker 4: And it's kind of a neat scene that takes place
Speaker 4: kind of right after the conviction comes down from the jury.
Speaker 5: What is the conviction from the jury. How long did
Speaker 5: it take for them to come to their verdict?
Speaker 4: It was not long at all. The number seven hours
Speaker 4: is sticking in my head. And and yeah, they only
Speaker 4: deliberated for the better part of one day. You know,
Speaker 4: there were four murders here and so there was a
Speaker 4: lot to go through. But they did. Even though Derek
Speaker 4: Moys was worried right to the very end, because that's
Speaker 4: just the kind of a person he is. They did
Speaker 4: get four murder convictions. And everything about this case was protracted.
Speaker 4: I don't know if we noted that not only take
Speaker 4: up five years to find him, it took another three
Speaker 4: plus years for him to go to trial, and it
Speaker 4: took another almost two years for him to be sentenced.
Speaker 4: Everything about this case just dragged on and on and on.
Speaker 4: But finally, earlier, just this very year, he was finally
Speaker 4: sentenced and he was sentenced to death. Of course, we
Speaker 4: know that that doesn't mean anything in our system today.
Speaker 4: He has years and years of appeals ahead of him.
Speaker 4: And the last execution that was done here in Nebraska,
Speaker 4: we just did have one this year, but it was
Speaker 4: a guy who had killed Kudrich two cab drivers in
Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies, and so it shows you how long
Speaker 4: this appeal. I would be shocked if he actually ends
Speaker 4: up seeing a death sentence. But there's no questions he's
Speaker 4: never going to see the light of the light of
Speaker 4: day again.
Speaker 5: You talk about in closing, you talk about the status
Speaker 5: of Derek moys after this, what he becomes. But also
Speaker 5: very very interesting you you alluded to it a very
Speaker 5: unusual response in the courtroom. I've seen cases where the
Speaker 5: jury were hugged or were hugging members of the family.
Speaker 5: In this case, what happened was unusual. Tell us about that,
Speaker 5: and tell us what the status of Derek Moyse was
Speaker 5: as a result of this and afterwards.
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, Derek, you know, like you said, the book
Speaker 4: begins with Derek moys and there's a reason for that
Speaker 4: because he just becomes the principal character. You know, throughout
Speaker 4: this he's a real life guy and nothing fic you
Speaker 4: know about him, but he because of the fact that
Speaker 4: he was just there for every critical moment and that
Speaker 4: included right up until the time of the verte and
Speaker 4: he kind of felped the need to be in the
Speaker 4: courtroom at the time of of the verdict. This case
Speaker 4: was very personal to him. He had had visions of
Speaker 4: Tom in his sleep at times because this case just
Speaker 4: had not at him so much. And and so it
Speaker 4: was meaningful for him to be in the courtroom that day.
Speaker 4: And he's not a lot of guy guy who who
Speaker 4: uh is comfortable with a lot of attention. But he
Speaker 4: was in the room with the families after the after
Speaker 4: the verdict, they were obviously very grateful, and it did
Speaker 4: turn him into kind of a little bit of a celebrity.
Speaker 4: You know that both a couple of the networks did
Speaker 4: in magazine style documentaries on on the case, and he
Speaker 4: was prominently featured in those and uh uh and but
Speaker 4: he he remains a homicide detective in Omaha today, still
Speaker 4: still very dedicated to his work. And uh but he
Speaker 4: would tell you this is a case that will live
Speaker 4: with him forever.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. I want to thank you very much for coming
Speaker 5: on and talking about Pathological the murderous Rage of doctor
Speaker 5: Anthony Garcia Henry J. Cortus. This is a Wild Blue
Speaker 5: Press release. Is their website Facebook page? How can they
Speaker 5: take a look at this book or other work?
Speaker 4: Tell us about that? Yeah, it becomes available on the Wednesday,
Speaker 4: December nineteenth, and people will find it if you just
Speaker 4: google Pathological. There you can order it through Amazon, the
Speaker 4: World Herald, which is where I'm located. We you know,
Speaker 4: we're selling him directly from our website as well. And
Speaker 4: the ebook or the kindle version is will be out
Speaker 4: and they'll also be a audio book version of it.
Speaker 4: And so however people like to get their true crime,
Speaker 4: they can, they can do it just look for Pathological.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Thank you very much here J Cordis of fantastic
Speaker 5: book Pathological, and thank you very much for this interview.
Speaker 5: You have a great evening.
Speaker 4: I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Good night,