WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.240 Latest interview of Elon Musk. 2 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:04.639 Bill Gates said there is no one in our time 3 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:07.280 who has done more to push the bounds of science. 4 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:07.879 Innovation than you. 5 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:10.160 What's kind of going to say, well, that's a nice 6 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:12.080 thing to have anyone say about you. Nice coming from 7 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:15.560 Bill Gates. But oddly enough, when it comes to AI, actually, 8 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:18.600 for around a decade, you've almost been doing the opposite 9 00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:21.199 and saying, hang on, you need to think about what 10 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:23.199 we're doing and what we're pushing here, and what do 11 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:25.199 we do to make this safe? And actually maybe we 12 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:27.879 shouldn't be pushing as faster or as hard as we are. 13 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:29.920 I mean, you've been doing it for a decade, Like 14 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:32.280 what was it that caused you to think about it 15 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:34.079 that way? And you know, why do we need to 16 00:00:34.119 --> 00:00:34.799 be worried? 17 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.799 Yeah? I've been somewhat of a Cassandra for quite a 18 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.119 while where people would I tell you, like, we should 19 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:40.399 really be concerned about AI, and the'd be like, what 20 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.119 are you talking about? Like I've never really had any 21 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:46.079 experience with it since I was immersed in technology. I 22 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:48.320 have been immersed in technology for a long time. I 23 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.840 could see it coming, so, but I think this year 24 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:53.280 was that there's been a number of breakthroughs. I mean, 25 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:55.240 you know, at the point in which someone can see 26 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:58.880 a dynamically created video of themselves, you know, like so 27 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:00.840 you can make a video of you say anything in 28 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:03.159 real time or me, and so there's sort of the 29 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:05.879 deep videos, which are really incredibly good, in fact, sometimes 30 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:08.959 more convincing than real ones and deep real and then 31 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:12.560 and then obviously things like chat GPT were quite remarkable, 32 00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:15.480 and now I saw a GPT one, GPT two, GPT three, 33 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:17.680 GPD four that you know, the whole sort of lead 34 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.159 up to that, So it was easy for me to 35 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:21.920 kind of see where it's going. If you just sort 36 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:24.480 of extrapolate the points on a curve and as seeing 37 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:28.359 that tread will continue, then we will have profound artificial intelligence, 38 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:31.319 and obviously at the level that far exceeds human intelligence. 39 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:34.120 So but I'd see at this point that people are 40 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:36.879 taking safety seriously, and I like, I say thank you 41 00:01:36.920 --> 00:01:39.239 for holding this AI safety conference. I think actually it 42 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:41.159 will go down in history as being very important. I 43 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:44.439 think it's really quite profound, and I do think overall 44 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:47.480 that the potential is there for artificial intelligence AI to 45 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:51.359 have most likely a positive effect and to create a 46 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:54.120 future of abundance where there is no scarcity of goods 47 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:57.239 and services. But it is somewhat of the magic gene 48 00:01:57.359 --> 00:01:59.719 problem where if you have a magic gene that can 49 00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:02.959 grab all the wishes, usually those stories don't end well. 50 00:02:03.079 --> 00:02:05.280 Who careful what you wish for? Including wishes? 51 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:07.879 So you talked a little bit about the summit and 52 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:10.280 thank you for being engaged in it, which has been 53 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:13.800 great and people enjoyed having you there pulling in this dialogue. Now, 54 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.240 one of the things that we achieved today in the 55 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:20.960 meetings between the companies and the leaders was an agreement 56 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:25.840 that externally, ideally, governments should be doing safety testing of 57 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:28.280 models before their relief. I think this is something that 58 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:30.000 you've spoken about a little bit. It was something we 59 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.639 worked really hard on because you know, my job in 60 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:35.719 government is to say, hang on, there is a potential risk, 61 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:38.039 and not a definite risk, but a potential risk of 62 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:40.800 something that could be bad. And my job is to 63 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.520 protect the country and we can only do that if 64 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:46.159 we develop the capability we need in our safety institute 65 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:47.639 and then go in and make sure we can test 66 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:50.759 the models before they are released. Delight, did that happened today. 67 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:52.680 But you know, what's your view on what we should 68 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:55.240 be doing. Right, You've talked about the potential risk. Right again, 69 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:57.199 we don't know, but you know, what are the types 70 00:02:57.199 --> 00:02:59.759 of things governments like ours should be doing to manage 71 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:01.319 and de gate against those risks. 72 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:03.639 Well, I generally think that it is good for government 73 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:07.319 to play a role when the public safety is at risk. So, 74 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.080 you know, really, for the vast majority of software, the 75 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:12.840 public safety is not at risk. If the app crashes 76 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.719 on your phone, your laptop, it's not a massive catastrophe. 77 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:20.319 But when talking about digital superintelligence, I think, which does 78 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.960 pose a risk to the public, then there is a 79 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:25.560 role for government to play to safeguard the interest of 80 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:28.800 the public. And this is of course true in many fields, 81 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.159 you know, aviation, cars, you know, I deal with regulators 82 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:37.039 throughout the world because of stalling being communications, rockets being aerospace, 83 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.159 and cars, you know, being vehicle transport. So I'm very 84 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:42.599 familiar with dealing with with regulators, and I actually agree 85 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:44.319 with the vast majority of regulations. There's a few that 86 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:46.000 I disagree with from time to time, but zero point 87 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.199 one percent, probably less than one percent of regulations I 88 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:52.120 disagree with. So there is some concern from people in 89 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:55.240 Silicon Valley who who have never dealt with regulators before, 90 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:57.680 and they think that this is going to just crush 91 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.719 innovation and slow them down and be annoying. But and 92 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:03.159 it will be annoying, It's true. They're not wrong about that. 93 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.159 But I think there's we've learnt over the years that 94 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.680 having a referee is a good thing. And if you 95 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:12.599 look at any sports game, there's always a referee, and 96 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.159 nobody's suggesting, I think, to have a sports game without one. 97 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:16.959 And I think that's the right way to think about this, 98 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:19.800 is for governed to be a referee, to make sure 99 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:24.360 the sportsmanlike conduct and that the public safety is you know, 100 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:26.959 is addressed. That we care about the public safety because 101 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:29.040 I think there might be at times too much optimism 102 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:31.480 about technology. And I speak I say that as a technologist. 103 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:33.519 I mean, so I ought to know and like I 104 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:36.360 said that, on balance, I think that the AI will 105 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:40.480 be a forcible good most likely, but the probability of 106 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:42.959 it going bad it's not zero percent. Yeah, so we 107 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:45.079 just need to mitigate the downside potential. 108 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.639 And then how you talk about referee and that's what 109 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:48.439 we're demonstrate. 110 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:50.279 The yeah, well there we go, I mean, you know, 111 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:52.199 and we talked about this in Demos and I discussed 112 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:53.000 this a long time. 113 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:56.079 Ago, like literally facing right and actually. 114 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.079 Demoster his credit and the credit of people in the industry, 115 00:04:58.079 --> 00:04:58.839 did say that to us. 116 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.439 You say it's not right. Yeah, that Demis and his 117 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:02.959 colleagues are marking their own homework. 118 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:03.199 Right. 119 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:05.680 There needs to be someone independent, and that's why we've 120 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:08.839 developed the safety Institute here. I mean, do you think 121 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.439 governments can develop the expertise. One of the things we 122 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:14.079 need to do is they hang on you know, Demis 123 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:15.920 and Exam all the others have got a lot of 124 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:19.279 very smart people doing this. Governments need to quickly tool 125 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:22.399 up capability wise, personnel wise, which is what we're doing. 126 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:24.160 I mean, do you think it is possible. 127 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:25.959 For governments to do that fast enough, given how quickly 128 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:28.240 the technology is developing, or what do we need to 129 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:29.680 do to make sure we do it quick enough? 130 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:31.680 No, I think it's a great point you're making. The 131 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.000 pace of AI is faster than any technology I've seen 132 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:37.399 in history by far, and it seems to be growing 133 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:41.240 in capability by at least fivefold peraps tenfold per year. 134 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.680 It'll certainly grow by an automatitude next year. 135 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:44.600 Yeah. 136 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:47.800 So and government isn't used to moving at that speed. 137 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:50.839 But I think even if there are not firm regulations, 138 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:53.959 even if there's not even if there isn't an enforcement capability, 139 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:56.879 so we're having insight and being able to highlight concerns 140 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:59.879 to the public will be very powerful. So even if 141 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.040 that's all that's accomplished, I think that will be very good. 142 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.279 Okay, y, well, hopefully we can do better than that. 143 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:04.680 Hopefully. 144 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.000 Yeah, yeah, no, but that's how fair. Actually we were 145 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.639 talking before it was striking. You know, you're someone who 146 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:13.519 spent their life in technology. They're living More's law. And 147 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.000 what it was interesting over the last couple of days 148 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:18.680 talking to everyone who's doing the development of this, and 149 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:21.000 I think you concur with this is just the pace 150 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:24.600 of advancement here is unlike anything all of you have 151 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:26.480 seen in your careers and technology. 152 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:28.360 Is that fair because you've got these kind of. 153 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:32.040 Compounding effects from the hardware and the data and the personnel. 154 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:35.000 Yeah, I mean the two currently the two leading centers 155 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:37.639 for a development are the San Francisco Bay area and 156 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:39.800 the sort of London area, And there are many other 157 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:41.160 places where it's being done, but those are the two 158 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.600 leading areas. So I think if you know, if the 159 00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.920 United States and the UK and China are sort of 160 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:49.959 aligned on safety, that's all going to be. That's really 161 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.199 that's where that's where the leadership is general. 162 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:54.240 And you actually you mentioned China there. 163 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:57.560 So I took a decision to invite China to summit 164 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.560 over the last three days, and it was not easy decision. 165 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.040 A lot of people criticize me for you know, my viewers, 166 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.439 if you're going to try it essential serious conversation, you 167 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:07.399 need to. But what would your thoughts? You do business 168 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:09.319 all around the world. You just talked about it there. 169 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:12.360 Should we be engaging with them? Can we trust them? 170 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:13.560 Is that the right thing to have done? 171 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:15.959 If we don't, If China is not on board with 172 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.439 AI safety, it's somewhat of a moot situation. The single 173 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:22.560 biggest objection that I get to any kind of AI 174 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.600 regulation or sort of safety controls are well, China is 175 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:27.360 not going to do it, and therefore they will just 176 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.040 jump into the lead and exceed us all. But actually 177 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:33.759 China is willing to participay in safety and thank you 178 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:36.079 for inviting them, and they you know, I think we 179 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:38.920 should thank China for for attending. When I was in China, 180 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:42.600 earlier this year. My main subject of discussion with the 181 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:45.040 leadership in China was AI safety and saying that this 182 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:47.439 is really something that they should care about, and they 183 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.399 took it seriously and you are too, which is great. 184 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:52.959 And having them here I think was essential. Really, if 185 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:55.279 they're not participants, it's pointless. 186 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:57.199 Yeah, that's and I think we were pleased. 187 00:07:57.199 --> 00:07:59.360 I think they were engaged yesterday in the discussions and 188 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.920 actually ended up signing the same communicy that everyone else did. Great, 189 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:04.959 which is a good stop, right, And I said, if 190 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.319 we need everyone to approach us in a similar way, 191 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.360 if we're going to have a realistic chance of resolving it. 192 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:12.839 I was going to You talked about innovation earlier and 193 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:14.040 regulation being annoying. 194 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:16.680 There was a good debate today we had about. 195 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.399 Open source and I think you've kind of been a 196 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:21.920 proponent of algorithmic transparency and making some of the ex 197 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.399 algorithms public and actually we were talking about every hint 198 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:28.519 and on the way in. He's particularly been very concerned 199 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.079 about open source models being used. 200 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:31.800 By bad actors. 201 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:33.799 You've got a group of people who say they are 202 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:37.200 critical to innovation happening in that distributed way. 203 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:38.000 Look, it's a trick. 204 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:40.879 There's probably no perfect answer, and there is a tricky balance. 205 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:42.799 What are your thoughts on how we should approach this 206 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.799 open source question or where should we be targeting whatever 207 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.759 regulatory or monitoring that we're going. 208 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.080 To do well. The open source algorithms and data tend 209 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.600 to lag the closed source by six to twelve, but 210 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:57.759 given the rate of improvement that there's actually there for 211 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:00.440 quite a big difference between the closed source in the 212 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:02.799 open If things are improving by a factor of let's 213 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.639 say five or more than being a year behind is 214 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:07.960 you're five times worse. So it's a pretty big difference. 215 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.320 And that might be actually an okay situation, but it 216 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:12.480 certainly we'll get to the point where you've got open 217 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:15.159 source AI that can do that, that will start to 218 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:17.960 approach human level intelligence or PAPS succeeded. I don't know 219 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:19.799 quite what to do about it. I think it's somewhat 220 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:21.879 in neeverment, there'll be some amount of open source, and 221 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.360 I guess I would have a slight bias towards open 222 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:26.200 source because at least you can see what's going on. 223 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:28.360 It wears a closed source. You don't know what's going 224 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:30.480 on now. It should be said with AI that even 225 00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:32.440 if it's an open source, do you actually know what's 226 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:35.039 going on. Because if you've got a gigantic data file 227 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.759 and you know sort of billions of days of weights 228 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:39.879 and parameters, you can't just read it and see what 229 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.320 it's going to do. It's a gigantic file of inscrutable numbers. 230 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:45.159 You can test it when you run it. You can 231 00:09:45.159 --> 00:09:47.200 test it. You can run a bunch of tests to 232 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:49.639 see what it's going to do. But it's probabilistic as 233 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:52.840 opposed to deterministic. It's not like traditional programming where you've 234 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:55.440 got you've got very discrete logic and the outcome is 235 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:57.360 very predictable and you can read each line and see 236 00:09:57.360 --> 00:09:59.279 what each line's going to do. A neural net is 237 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:02.039 just a much of probabilities. I mean, it sort of 238 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.840 ends up being a giant Comma separated value file. It's 239 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:07.840 like our digital guide is a CSP file. Really, Okay, 240 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:09.000 that is kind of what it is. 241 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.600 Yeah, Now at that point you've just made is one 242 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:14.720 that we have been talking about a lot, because again 243 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:17.120 conversation with the people are developing their technology. 244 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:19.120 Make the point that you've just made. It is not 245 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:20.159 like normal. 246 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:24.240 Software where there's predictability about inputs improving leading to this 247 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:27.960 particular output improving, and as the models iterate and improve, 248 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:30.200 we don't quite know what's going to come out the 249 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:32.039 other end. I think we'd agree with that, which is 250 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:34.120 why I think there is this bias that we need 251 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:35.840 to get in there while the training runs are being 252 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:38.840 done before the models are released, to understand what is 253 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:41.919 this new iteration broad about in terms of capability, which 254 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:43.559 it sounds like you would agree with. 255 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:45.639 I was going to shift goes a little bit on. 256 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.879 You know, you've talked a lot about human consciousness human agency, 257 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:52.039 which it actually might strike people as strange given that 258 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:55.360 you are known for being such a brilliant innovator and technologist, 259 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:57.840 but it's quite heartfelt when I hear you talk about 260 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:01.919 it and the importance of maintaining that agency in technology and. 261 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:04.480 Preserving human consciousness. Now it kind of links. 262 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:06.039 The thing I was going to ask is when I 263 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.080 do interviews or talk to people out and about in 264 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:10.279 this job about AI, the thing that comes up most 265 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:12.480 actually is it probably not so much the stuff we've 266 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:15.440 been talking about, but jobs. It's what is AI mean 267 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:17.799 for my job? Is it going to mean that I 268 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:19.759 don't have a job or my kids are not going 269 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:20.519 to have a job. 270 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:21.000 Now. 271 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:24.639 Answer as a policymaker, as a leader is actually, AI 272 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:27.240 is already creating jobs, and you can see that in 273 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:28.159 the companies. 274 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:28.519 That are starting. 275 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:31.440 Also, the way it's being used is a little bit 276 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:35.039 more as a co pilot necessarily versus replacing the person. 277 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:37.279 There's still human agency, but it's helping you do your 278 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.840 job better, which is a good thing. And as we've 279 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:44.320 seen with technological revolutions in the past, clearly there's change 280 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:45.159 in the labor market. 281 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:46.440 The amount of jobs. 282 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.200 I was quoting an MIT study today that they did 283 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:51.279 a couple of years ago, something like sixty percent of 284 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:53.840 the jobs at that moment didn't exist forty years ago, 285 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:55.679 So hard to predict. And my job is to create 286 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:58.840 an incredible education system, whether it's at school, whether it's 287 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.639 retraining people at any point in their career, because ultimately, 288 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:03.759 if we've got a skill population, they'll be able to 289 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:06.000 keep up with the pace of change and have a 290 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:08.720 good life. But you know that it's still a concern, 291 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:12.440 and you know, what would your kind of observation be 292 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:15.600 on AI and the impact of labor markets and people's 293 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:17.960 jobs and how they should feel about that as they 294 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:18.840 think about. 295 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:20.720 This, well, I think we are seeing the most disruptive 296 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:24.080 force in history here. You know, where we have for 297 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.360 the first time, we will have the first time something 298 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.080 that is smarter than the smartest human and that I 299 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:31.080 mean it's hard to say exactly what that moment is, 300 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:34.159 but there will come a point where no job is needed. 301 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:35.879 You can have a job if you want to have 302 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.759 a job for sort of personal satisfaction, but the AI 303 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:42.000 will be able to do everything. So I don't know 304 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.440 if that makes people comfortable uncomfortable. You know. That's why 305 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:46.559 I say, if you wish for a magic genie that 306 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:48.639 gives you any wishes you want and there's no limit, 307 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.639 you don't have those three limits three wish limits, not 308 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.840 since you have many wishes as you want. So it's 309 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:55.559 both good and bad. One of the challenges in the 310 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.240 future will be how do we find meaning in life 311 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:00.399 if you have a magic genie that can do everything 312 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:02.960 you want. I do think we's it's hard, you know. 313 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.759 Whene's when when there's new technology, it tends to have 314 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:08.159 usually follow an S curve. In this case, we're going 315 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:09.919 to be on the exponential portion of the S curve. 316 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:13.200 For a long time and we have to ask for anything, 317 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:15.840 and it won't be if we won't have universal basic income, 318 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.240 we'll have universal high income. So in some in some sense, 319 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.440 it will be somewhat of a leveler or an equalizer, 320 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:22.480 because really, I think everyone will have access to this 321 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:24.720 magic gene and you're able to ask any question. It 322 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.919 will certainly be good for education. It'll be the best 323 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.039 tutor you could, the most patient tutor sit there all day, 324 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:32.279 and there will be no shortage of goods and services. 325 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:34.440 Will be an age of abundance. I think if I'd 326 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:38.320 recommend people read in Banks, the Banks culture books are 327 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:40.879 probably the best in visioning. In fact, not probably, they're 328 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:43.240 definitely by far the best envisioning of an a future. 329 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.519 There's nothing even close. So I'd recommend, really recommend Banks. 330 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.600 I'm a very big fan. All these books are good. 331 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.399 There's not Jay which one all of them. So that's 332 00:13:51.559 --> 00:13:54.279 that'll give you a sense of what is a I 333 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:58.559 guess a fairly utopian pro toopian future with with Ai, Yeah, 334 00:13:58.600 --> 00:13:58.960 which is. 335 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:01.720 Good from an as you said, it's a universal high income, 336 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:03.360 which is a nice phrase, and that's it's good for 337 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:07.559 a materialistic sense of abundance. Actually, that kind of then 338 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:08.679 leads to the question. 339 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:10.559 That you pose. Right, I'm someone who believes, you know, 340 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:12.639 work gives you meaning. I write a lot about that. 341 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.240 As you know, I think work is a good thing. 342 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.440 It, you know, gives people purpose in their lives. And 343 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:19.639 if you then remove a large chunk of that, you know, 344 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.440 what does that mean? 345 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:21.519 And where do you get that? 346 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:23.480 You know, where do you get that drive, that motivation, 347 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:25.519 that purpose. I mean, you're talking about it. You work 348 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:27.840 a lot of our you know, as I was. 349 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:29.879 Mentioning when we were talking earlier, I have to somewhat 350 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.639 engage in the liberty suspension of disbelief because I'm putting 351 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:34.919 so much blood, sweat and tears into a work project 352 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:38.480 and burning the you know, three am oil. Then I'm like, wait, 353 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:40.039 why am I doing this? I just wait for the 354 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:42.559 AI to do it. I'm just lashing myself for no reason. 355 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:45.080 It must be a glutton for punishment. 356 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:46.759 Called demos and tell them to hurry up and then 357 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.159 you can have a holiday. Right, it's a plan. Yeah, No, 358 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:50.440 it's a Look, it's a tricky. 359 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:52.679 It's a tricky thing because I think, you know, part 360 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:54.639 of our job is to make sure that we can 361 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.720 navigate to that very I think largely positive place and 362 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.399 help people through it between now and then, because these 363 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:03.759 things bring a lot about change in the labor market 364 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:04.440 as we've seen. 365 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:06.720 Yeah, I think it's probably is generally a good thing 366 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:08.360 because you know, there are a lot of jobs that 367 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.879 are uncomfortable or dangerous or which sort of tedious, and 368 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.399 the computer will have no problem doing that. We're happy 369 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.159 to do that all day long. So you know, it's 370 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:17.879 fun to cook food, but it's not that fun to 371 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:20.240 wash the dishes, but the computer is perfectly happy to 372 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.840 watch the dishes. I guess there is. You know, we 373 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.879 still have a sports like where where humans compete and 374 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:29.039 like the Olympics, and obviously a machine can can go 375 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:31.399 faster than any human, but we still have we saw 376 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.159 humans race against each other and have all, you know, 377 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.679 have these sports competitions against each other where even though 378 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.000 the machines are better, which there's all I guess compunity 379 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:41.240 who can be the best human at something, and people 380 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:43.240 do find pulforment in that. So I guess that's perhaps 381 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:45.960 a good example of how even when machines are faster than. 382 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:47.639 Us, stronger than us, we still find a way. 383 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:49.840 We still enjoy competing against other humans, so at least 384 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:50.679 who's the best human. 385 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.639 It's a good it's a good analogy, and we've been 386 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:55.600 talking a lot about managing the risks. Just before we 387 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:57.799 move on and finish on AI is just talk a 388 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.320 little bit about the opportunities. You know, you're engaged in 389 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:04.200 lots of different companies. You're being an obvious one, which 390 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:06.360 is doing some exciting stuff. You touched on the thing 391 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:09.840 that I'm probably most excited about, which is an education. Yeah, 392 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.679 and I think many people will have seen sous video 393 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:14.720 from earlier this year. Is ted talk about as you 394 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:16.159 talked about it's like a personal tutor. 395 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.720 Yeah, an amazing personal tutor. 396 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:19.519 An amazing personal tutor. 397 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.399 And we know the difference in learning having that personal 398 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:24.960 his tutor is incredible compared to class from learning. So 399 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:27.240 if you can have every child have a personal tutor 400 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:30.200 specifically for them that then just evolves with them over time, 401 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.320