Speaker 1: Oh hey, it's a lone air pod under the bench
Speaker 1: at a bus stop. Alleyward back with fresh horrors for you.
Speaker 1: Let's not get ahead of ourselves though, but straight up,
Speaker 1: if kids are listening with you, think about high tailing
Speaker 1: it right now to Asmologies episode. Instead, they're in the
Speaker 1: main podcast feed. They're up at alleyward dot com slash Smologies,
Speaker 1: which is linked in the show notes. Smologies are short
Speaker 1: and classroom safe. This one is not. It is not.
Speaker 1: Are we good? Good? Okay, let's get to otters. First off,
Speaker 1: thank you listener Isaiah Nubins, who suggested this guest, in
Speaker 1: particular after hearing a review I read from a Wix
Speaker 1: from the Urology episode and a Wix dreamed that Loutrology
Speaker 1: was an episode. And your dreams are coming true right now,
Speaker 1: all of our dreams. Also, thank you just to everyone
Speaker 1: for leaving and writing reviews. They matter so much. I
Speaker 1: read every single one. And this week we hit a
Speaker 1: really big lifelong goal of mine because of your reviews
Speaker 1: and subscribing, and Ologies was the number one science podcasts
Speaker 1: on Apple. It's been five years we hit number one. People.
Speaker 1: Let's do some air horns and a tiny imperceptible butt dance.
Speaker 1: Good job, huge giant goal. I can't believe it. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Thanks also to everyone on patreon dot
Speaker 1: com slash ologies for supporting the show. Each week, though
Speaker 1: for reviews I pick a fresh one to prove that
Speaker 1: I see them all. And this week thank you to Shermworm,
Speaker 1: who wrote come for the science facts, stay for the fields.
Speaker 1: And also thank you future ologist Mackenzie King, who described
Speaker 1: the show as a massage to my brain while drinking espresso. Okay,
Speaker 1: get into it. Liutrology it's a word. It's been cited
Speaker 1: in the literature one time, but that counts. JC von Voppelklein,
Speaker 1: a prominent scholar of crustaceans, coined it while describing a
Speaker 1: study about sea otters that was so well written it
Speaker 1: was an interesting read quote even for the non lutrinologist.
Speaker 1: So lutriside note comes from a mix of old old
Speaker 1: words for water, hence otter water water and then the
Speaker 1: hill they think was maybe picked up from lupis like
Speaker 1: a water wolf or ludo meaning to play. It's anyone's guess,
Speaker 1: but otters are in the same mustulant family as weasels
Speaker 1: and wolverines and minx and also badgers, and they are
Speaker 1: full of must and musk and mischief. And you're about
Speaker 1: to get absolutely destroyed by otter facts. Your small talk
Speaker 1: will never recover. Otters will be all you think about
Speaker 1: for the remainder of your life. Also with that, I
Speaker 1: have to issue a trigger and a content warning without
Speaker 1: spoiling too much. Otters are not not violent, and many
Speaker 1: of their behaviors would result in criminal charges if water
Speaker 1: weasels had a justice system. But in other ways they're
Speaker 1: better at relationships than we are now. This otter expert
Speaker 1: studied environmental systems for undergrad and got his PhD in
Speaker 1: ecology and evolutionary biology at UC Santa Cruz and is
Speaker 1: now doing a postdoc at the University of Washington in
Speaker 1: connection with the American Museum of Natural History and the
Speaker 1: University of Texas. So buckle up, boy, howdie hot damn
Speaker 1: get ready for coastal versus inland otters. Skull morphology that
Speaker 1: tricks our brains, teeth, fur beach pastries, rock pockets, the
Speaker 1: perils of selfless motherhood, kelp naps, the nostalgia of otter droppings,
Speaker 1: molar crunching, and of course, outter handholding. With scientists and
Speaker 1: certified otter expert lutrinologist, doctor Chris Law.
Speaker 2: My name is Chris Law and.
Speaker 1: I go by him cool and doctor correct.
Speaker 2: Yes, doctor Law.
Speaker 1: We had a suggestion for this ology a few weeks ago.
Speaker 1: Someone had a dream also that there was an Otters
Speaker 1: episode and they woke up and looked for it, and
Speaker 1: then they realized that they just drumed it up. And
Speaker 1: so that is why we hustled to find you, because
Speaker 1: someone had a need for an Otter episode. So can
Speaker 1: you tell me how you came to be a weasel wizard?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I essentially started my guest science career with
Speaker 2: polycate worms during my undergrad at UC San Diego.
Speaker 1: These are bristly segmented marine worms, which are almost as
Speaker 1: cute as otters if you're into worms.
Speaker 2: And then as I was applying grad school, I met
Speaker 2: with my future pachy advisor, Rita Meta at UC Santa
Speaker 2: Cruz and we're just chatting about potential research projects. And
Speaker 2: she studies more at EELS, So I was just assuming
Speaker 2: I was going to be working on some fish project,
Speaker 2: which is fine because that was my plan to go
Speaker 2: off the food chain. But then we were just chatting
Speaker 2: a little bit, and she just brought up the idea,
Speaker 2: why don't you work on sea otters because we're in
Speaker 2: Santa Cruz and they're just all over the place, And
Speaker 2: obviously I was like, ah, yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: So Chris has lived up and down the sunny Pacific
Speaker 1: coast in San Diego and Santa Cruz and Orange County
Speaker 1: and like nearly every California and he was familiar with
Speaker 1: sea otters, so the suggestion to work on them was like, Hell, yes,
Speaker 1: jackpot Jack Potter.
Speaker 2: I've seen them before, and like, there are adorable little
Speaker 2: teddy bears that you just want to hug, and who
Speaker 2: doesn't want to work on them? So like the moment
Speaker 2: she said that, kind of just jumped on that bandwagon
Speaker 2: and started doing some research into what potential projects I
Speaker 2: could could do. And since they eat all these hard
Speaker 2: shell preaetoms, one of the questions we really wanted to
Speaker 2: look at is just how are they actually breaking into
Speaker 2: those hard items? So kind of just got started on that.
Speaker 2: So basically in undergrad I come from like a phylogenetics
Speaker 2: background and evolutionary background, so I'm kind of halfway through
Speaker 2: working with sea otters or starting to look into sea otters.
Speaker 2: I just got this idea, I have to build a
Speaker 2: phylogenic tree of all of the not only otters, but
Speaker 2: the weasels, martins, wolverine, all those guys. So I just
Speaker 2: started building that phylogenic tree and then just learning a
Speaker 2: bunch of natural history by reading about this group, Like
Speaker 2: I have first daven know that weasels were related to otters,
Speaker 2: So learned more about weasels and kind of went this
Speaker 2: down this rabbit hole to want to study why they
Speaker 2: so elongate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they are like the docxins of the sea. Why
Speaker 1: are they so long and squiggly?
Speaker 2: The idea is that it came around fifteen or so
Speaker 2: million years ago. That's during the mid mass seeing client transition,
Speaker 2: when temperatures drastically decreased and this expansion of grasslands occurred,
Speaker 2: which then led to diversification of rodents. So then this
Speaker 2: body elongation is hypothesized to have allowed those weasel like
Speaker 2: creatures to go underground to chase all those rodents in
Speaker 2: these tight crevices and whatnot.
Speaker 1: Wow, I had no idea that that is why bodies
Speaker 1: were long. I mean, is that what doc sins are doing?
Speaker 1: Aren't they kind of like rodent hol dwellers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's the idea between or behind their kind
Speaker 2: of artificial selection, right where people really are trying to
Speaker 2: breathe these elongate looking dogs so they can go in
Speaker 2: these tight crevices or burrows to try to get those rodents.
Speaker 2: And during hunting.
Speaker 1: Are they are they just chock full of vertebrate? Do
Speaker 1: they have more vertebrae or do they just have longer
Speaker 1: vertebrae than other animals.
Speaker 2: That is a fascinating question. So like if you think
Speaker 2: of snakes or eels, they become more elongate by just
Speaker 2: simply adding more vertebrae, which makes sense right, But then
Speaker 2: with mammals, we're actually constrained to the number of vertebrate
Speaker 2: that we have. So in carnivorans, which like dogs, bears, cats,
Speaker 2: they have about twenty thoracic lumbar vertebrate and that number
Speaker 2: rarely rarely changes, So it can't become elongate by just
Speaker 2: adding additional vertebrate. They have to actually evolve relatively longer vertebrae.
Speaker 1: I was always wondering that about like my short ish
Speaker 1: poodle dog versus a docksen or like a weasel, those long,
Speaker 1: almost wormy bodies just have longer backbones each individually.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, so they have the exact same number vertebrae.
Speaker 2: It's just some of those breeds might have relatively longer ones,
Speaker 2: although no one, I don't think anybody has really looked
Speaker 2: into that. So it would be really interesting to see
Speaker 2: the skeletal elements of what actually contributes to those different
Speaker 2: body plans in these different breeds.
Speaker 1: So yes, every time you see a dog that you
Speaker 1: would like to pet, know that it has thirty main
Speaker 1: vertebrae and then between five to twenty three bonus tailbones.
Speaker 1: And Corgeese side note, they're born with tails. Did you
Speaker 1: know that big bushy foxtails google It same with Australian
Speaker 1: shepherds and other herding dogs. But they tend to get
Speaker 1: the chop by breeders because when they were actually used
Speaker 1: for hurting, no one wanted a stumped on tail. And
Speaker 1: I read one twenty eighteen study titled C seven vertebra
Speaker 1: homoaotic transformation in Domestic Dogs are Pug dogs breaking mammalian
Speaker 1: evolutionary constraints which found that twenty five percent of pugs
Speaker 1: have one fewer vertebra than all other breeds. And I
Speaker 1: like to think that there's some b robed man in
Speaker 1: the sky and God took a vertebra from a snorting,
Speaker 1: farting pug dog and made humans with it. Now, how
Speaker 1: many do you have? Well, you were probably born with
Speaker 1: thirty three, but you now have around twenty four. What happened, Dad?
Speaker 1: I think you ate the bones. Nope, they just kind
Speaker 1: of fused together at the bottom like a bag of
Speaker 1: raisinetes you left in a hot car, only it's your
Speaker 1: sacral spine and your coccyx. For more on this, see
Speaker 1: the Osteology episode. But enough about us, let's talk about
Speaker 1: gazing in wonder at otters.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Chris also happens to make really gorgeous science art charting
Speaker 1: the evolution of these mammals in this beautiful, colorful detail.
Speaker 1: And where in the tree of life are they? Because
Speaker 1: I feel like I think of an otter and it
Speaker 1: seems like a cat, an aquatic cat, but also kind
Speaker 1: of like an upside down dog. What's happening?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's in the order Carnivora, and Carnivora's split
Speaker 2: into two different main grooves, the philiforms, which are like
Speaker 2: your cats, and then the other group are the caniforms,
Speaker 2: which are your dogs, bears, pinnipedes, and the mustelodes, which
Speaker 2: are the raccoons, weasels, skunks, orders, all those guys. So
Speaker 2: basically in the caniforms it goes dogs, bears, pinnipeds, then skunks,
Speaker 2: the red panda, raccoons, and then the mastellids, which includes
Speaker 2: that really species rich group that includes the otters, the weasels,
Speaker 2: the wolverine, the martins, the honey badger, the European badger.
Speaker 2: There's like over sixty species in mastella day.
Speaker 1: Do you dream about this stuff? Because I know you
Speaker 1: make art about phylogenetic trees, does your brain is it
Speaker 1: always trying to kind of construct visuals of this?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's why I love like learning how
Speaker 2: to make phylogenic trees. That I think it's just such
Speaker 2: a cool way to just like showcase the evolutionary history
Speaker 2: of like physically the tree of life, and with the
Speaker 2: carnivorence in general, Like it's such a diverse group and
Speaker 2: like so many different types of body plans and different
Speaker 2: sizes and shape, So it's really cool to be able
Speaker 2: to visualize all that and like how this one species
Speaker 2: came from this group of species. Or how these two
Speaker 2: closely related species are from the same part of tree
Speaker 2: but then looks so very different. So yeah, that's part
Speaker 2: of the fun parts of being an evolutionary biologist.
Speaker 1: Are you an organized person in general?
Speaker 2: I pretend to be. It comes and goes.
Speaker 1: Now, question what is it like to be an autorologist?
Speaker 1: Do you get to touch them? Do you get to
Speaker 1: hold them? Do you get to pet their fur? Do
Speaker 1: you get to touch a hell? Do you get to
Speaker 1: hold her hand? Do they give you clams? What is
Speaker 1: your life like?
Speaker 2: Oh? I mean, I wish I could do all of that.
Speaker 2: The closest I've done is touched one. It is honestly
Speaker 2: the softest thing, at least a see honor. It's the
Speaker 2: softest thing I've ever felt. I totally understood or understand
Speaker 2: why people back in the day really wanted to hunt
Speaker 2: them just because that pelt like you just want to
Speaker 2: rub your face on them because it's just so soft,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure it's also pretty warm in terms of
Speaker 2: doing all the other stuff, in terms of like wanting
Speaker 2: to hold their hands, I don't think I would ever
Speaker 2: want to do that with the wild otter because they
Speaker 2: will try to eat your face or like bite your
Speaker 2: face if they could. They're pure evil.
Speaker 1: They are pure evil, says doctor Chris Law, a professional lucronologist.
Speaker 1: You knew this was coming, didn't you. Okay, I'm glad
Speaker 1: to be jumped right into that because I feel like
Speaker 1: somehow I became informed a few years ago that otters
Speaker 1: the cutest things ever, also absolute bastards, evil sexual predators.
Speaker 1: They will steal your stuff and sell it at a
Speaker 1: pawnshop like they're the worst. Give us a dark side.
Speaker 1: How fucked up our otters?
Speaker 2: Oh? I mean yeah, so basically everything you said is true.
Speaker 2: So probably the worst thing is that they can also
Speaker 2: be dog killers. So apparently there are a couple incidents
Speaker 2: where somebody's dog was just like barking at one of
Speaker 2: the one of these otters along like the dock or something,
Speaker 2: and I guess that order just got fed up, went
Speaker 2: up to it and just apparently dragged it down, and
Speaker 2: I believe it might have drowned it. But again, this
Speaker 2: is just through word of mouth, so who knows.
Speaker 1: Okay, It's September twenty twenty one. Hurricane Ida is ruining lives.
Speaker 1: The pandemic rages on via the delta variant and squid
Speaker 1: game premieres. Yes, folks, that was less than a year ago.
Speaker 1: But meanwhile, in Alaska, otters are terrorizing Anchorage citizens, literally
Speaker 1: chasing and sinking teeth into a nine year old boy.
Speaker 1: And this is not the first time. According to one
Speaker 1: news source quote, officials are currently investigating whether the incidents
Speaker 1: all involve the same group of otters. And it's not
Speaker 1: just in the last Frontier, it's also in the Sunshine State.
Speaker 2: Cell phone video of a charging otter.
Speaker 3: This is a picture of the alleged otter sent to
Speaker 3: us by Greg Butler.
Speaker 2: Butler says the otter attacked his.
Speaker 1: Dog, Chester. Chester was bitten on the nose after an
Speaker 1: otter charged through his screened in porch. Two of his
Speaker 1: human neighbors were bitten on their heels and hands.
Speaker 2: This otter comes flying out of the lake, just starts
Speaker 2: to chase my bike.
Speaker 1: Actually just one right after my bike. So, while rare,
Speaker 1: these incidents are not isolated, and in communities all over
Speaker 1: the globe, Fearful locals demand of officials, you orter get
Speaker 1: that outter out of her.
Speaker 2: I've heard this a couple of times, and this has
Speaker 2: happened a couple of times, so it's kind of gnarly.
Speaker 1: I mean, how big are they? Because I feel like
Speaker 1: river otters are bigger, right, how big is sea otter like?
Speaker 1: And also what's the difference between river otter and a
Speaker 1: sea otter?
Speaker 2: Oh so, actually a is much bigger than a North
Speaker 2: American river otter, but in California they don't get that big.
Speaker 2: Those are more Alaskan otters, but they are still much
Speaker 2: bigger than a little river otter.
Speaker 1: And just to back up a little bit, there are
Speaker 1: thirteen species of otter globally. The US has two species,
Speaker 1: the little river otter, about the same weight as a pug,
Speaker 1: and then the sea otters, which off California can be
Speaker 1: up to ninety pounds like a rottweiler, although the beefy
Speaker 1: or Alaskan variety can top one hundred. Libbies think like
Speaker 1: a Bernese mountain dog floating around gnawing on a crap. Now,
Speaker 1: they're also Eurasian otters about twenty pounds docks and size,
Speaker 1: and some medium size African otters, South American giant river otters,
Speaker 1: which are somewhere between an American river otter and a
Speaker 1: sea otter in size. And then there's the teeny Chihuahua
Speaker 1: sized Asian otters, but yes, in the US, I was
Speaker 1: surprised that the river otters were smaller and that the
Speaker 1: sea otters were these hefty, clam eating sea beasts. They're
Speaker 1: big and they're not cuddly.
Speaker 2: Definitely can be pretty vicious if you get too close
Speaker 2: to them.
Speaker 1: How did some evolve to hang out in freshwater and
Speaker 1: others seawater or does it even matter because it's their
Speaker 1: breathing air.
Speaker 3: Right, I'm amazed.
Speaker 1: We don't want have fins and gulls.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, actually, all other otters are primarily freshwater. So
Speaker 2: it's the sea otter that's unique. It's that odd ball
Speaker 2: that evolved from all the other otters like about eight
Speaker 2: to ten million years ago, and it went on basically
Speaker 2: its own evolutionary trajectory. So everything it does, everything about
Speaker 2: their physiology is very different compared to other river otters.
Speaker 2: And sea otters are primarily just found in the ocean,
Speaker 2: whereas river otters, especially like North American river otters and
Speaker 2: Eurasian otters, will actually go into the marine environment as well,
Speaker 2: so you can find you can be in locations like
Speaker 2: in Washington where there will be both river otters and
Speaker 2: sea otters.
Speaker 1: Oh, where are they sleeping? Did they go home at night?
Speaker 2: Sea otters?
Speaker 1: Either one like, do they sleep in the water or
Speaker 1: do they have like a cave that they hang out
Speaker 1: in on shore?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So so river otters have dens that they hang out.
Speaker 2: I've never actually seen one, but yeah, I'm presumably along
Speaker 2: the shore. But then sea otters actually just float in
Speaker 2: the water, and I'm sure you heard stories of where
Speaker 2: they can wrap themselves in some kelp so they don't
Speaker 2: float away and they can take a nap that way.
Speaker 2: They're relatively small marine mammals. They burn a lot of heat,
Speaker 2: so they have to sleep a lot to refuel, and
Speaker 2: you always see them like just taking this newze to
Speaker 2: to conserve some energy.
Speaker 1: Do you think they hold hands in the wild or
Speaker 1: is that just a publicity video firm a zoo?
Speaker 2: So I don't I actually don't know, because I remember
Speaker 2: giving a presentation at this I think conference and I
Speaker 2: had an image of that, you know, that image of
Speaker 2: two sars holding hands that was taken at one of
Speaker 2: the aquariums. Somebody gave me shit for it without correctly
Speaker 2: doing that because she said that they don't hold hands
Speaker 2: in the wild. But then apparently a couple weeks or
Speaker 2: months later, there's like some photos of wild hotters holding hands.
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
Speaker 1: So they have a good pr team. They're like, listen,
Speaker 1: TMZ's around the corner. We're going to have to do something.
Speaker 1: Also shout out to otter paparazzi Drew Wharton, the founder
Speaker 1: of ceotters dot com, who in twenty sixteen captured the
Speaker 1: first photo of otters doing this in the wild, like
Speaker 1: a celebrity couple holding hands walking into nobood to eat
Speaker 1: a bunch of raw seafood. Also, ceotters dot com has
Speaker 1: live sea otter camps if you would like to stare
Speaker 1: at them with like minded people over the internet. What
Speaker 1: is the autology community?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Are people really focused on conservation? Are they trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how to increase populations?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Is there a big conservation effort around?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's a huge effort out all the major aquariums,
Speaker 2: so like the Monterey Bay Aquarium in California, the Seattle
Speaker 2: a Quarium in Washington. I'm sure up in BC and
Speaker 2: Alaska also has great efforts, but the one I'm most
Speaker 2: familiar with are the ones down in Central Coast California
Speaker 2: where the Monorway Bear Quarium U see Standa Cruz, the
Speaker 2: US Geological Survey, Fish and Wildlife basically all of these
Speaker 2: organizations they do all of this great outreach work and
Speaker 2: also a lot of work with the wild populations to
Speaker 2: make sure that the population is doing well, that individuals
Speaker 2: are healthy, and that you know, all the possible things
Speaker 2: that could affect them are looked into.
Speaker 1: How is their population like the sea otters, for example,
Speaker 1: I feel like people are really rallying for the sea otters,
Speaker 1: like how is their population, Like is it rebounding at all?
Speaker 1: Because we just did an episode on urchins and they
Speaker 1: were like, urchins are everywhere because sea otters are not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh so, I guess it's very different depending on
Speaker 2: what population of sea otters you're talking about. So that
Speaker 2: helped to urchin. The sea otter system is really describing
Speaker 2: the Alaskan populations pretty well, so that classic killer will
Speaker 2: is eating the sea otters, which then increases urchins, which
Speaker 2: then decreases helpforest. But then in California the system's a
Speaker 2: little bit different where the sea otter population is actually
Speaker 2: doing relatively stable. So I think there's about maybe three
Speaker 2: thousand individuals in coastal California. I could be wrong on that.
Speaker 2: I have to check my numbers's right, but basically the
Speaker 2: idea is that they are kind of constrained between like
Speaker 2: point consumption down south and Half Moon Bay up north.
Speaker 2: And the reason why they can't expand because they're being
Speaker 2: attacked by sharks up north, and I guess fishermen are
Speaker 2: pushing them back up from the south, so they can't
Speaker 2: really expand, and that why there's they're more like this
Speaker 2: carrying capacity where they're running out of food and that
Speaker 2: auto population can't really increase because of that.
Speaker 1: So in California, they're stuck between a net and a
Speaker 1: shark place. And sea otters have been protected since the
Speaker 1: nineteen eleven International fur Seal Treaty after colonization of North
Speaker 1: America led to a dangerous decline. And I looked into
Speaker 1: it and yep, there's about three thousand sea otters off
Speaker 1: the coast of the Pacific in California, and then ninety
Speaker 1: percent of the world sea otters are off the coast
Speaker 1: of Alaska. There's about twenty five thousand of them there. Now,
Speaker 1: what about the river otters. It's estimated about one hundred
Speaker 1: thousand of North American river otters exist in the US
Speaker 1: and Canada. According to the banger of a paper, river
Speaker 1: otter status management and distribution in the United States evidence
Speaker 1: of large scale population increase and range expansion. So that's good.
Speaker 1: And of the world's thirteen species, eight are threatened, including
Speaker 1: the Asian small clawed otter and the smooth coated otter,
Speaker 1: and one called the hairy nosed otter, which sounds cute
Speaker 1: but it might be ferocious. All of these otters are like,
Speaker 1: we got a more ods. Also, I'm gonna warn you
Speaker 1: right now this next part contains scenarios and language that
Speaker 1: might be literally triggering to victims of violence. Fucking otters,
Speaker 1: dude otters, fucking dude sex lives of otters. What's going on?
Speaker 1: How are they making more ods? Is it a horror show?
Speaker 2: It basically is very It's basically just yeah.
Speaker 1: That's what I heard. That's what I heard. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not great people. And I'm bleeping out a word that
Speaker 1: starts with R that means sexual assault. I know it
Speaker 1: can be hard for survivors to hear. So I'm just
Speaker 1: airing on the side of bleeping otters.
Speaker 2: So so females have it rough because basically the moment
Speaker 2: they become sexually mature, they are either pregnant or have
Speaker 2: a baby with them or a pup with them, until
Speaker 2: they literally exhaust to themselves to death. And it's called
Speaker 2: end lactation syndrome for the females where they just basically
Speaker 2: just die because they're just so exact it from you know,
Speaker 2: putting so much energy towards their pups or towards milk production,
Speaker 2: and they also have to ford for their puffs. And
Speaker 2: I'll say one thing, some of those pups are basically
Speaker 2: just like little parasites. I remember just watching a mom
Speaker 2: and a pup interact, and this pup is almost bigger
Speaker 2: than the mom, and it was still hanging out with mom,
Speaker 2: and the moment mom goes diving, the pup just like
Speaker 2: hangs out on the surface being all cute and happy.
Speaker 2: But then when the mom comes up with food, it
Speaker 2: just immediately swims to the mom and just starts, like
Speaker 2: you know, crying and begging for food. And again this
Speaker 2: pup is almost bigger than a mom. Basically, pups usually
Speaker 2: stay with the mom for six months to up to
Speaker 2: a year, and it's those usually those slackers that are
Speaker 2: staying up for a year, are usually just as big
Speaker 2: as a mom, still continually getting food from it.
Speaker 1: How did evolution allow for that? How can they stay that,
Speaker 1: these poor ladies? And what are all the bachelors doing?
Speaker 1: Are they roving in packs of otters? Are there like
Speaker 1: packs of bachelor river otter? Is just terrorizing?
Speaker 2: Uh so? So yeah, the evolution question, I think it's
Speaker 2: just because that pup will be like nice and fat
Speaker 2: and ready to kind of go hunt on its own,
Speaker 2: because if it gets weaned too early or it leaves
Speaker 2: mom too early, it's not going to be able to
Speaker 2: eat or get enough food, and it's just gonna die.
Speaker 2: And in that case, you're just gonna lose your you know,
Speaker 2: offspring and your genetic potential. Right if that happens so evolutionarily,
Speaker 2: you know, there might be that reason for why why
Speaker 2: that pup really wants to extract all the nutrients from
Speaker 2: the mom before it can go off on its own
Speaker 2: and do its thing. No, no, no, no, I live
Speaker 2: with my mom.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you hungry herm we get some loud.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in terms of the males, oh yeah, those
Speaker 2: guys don't do anything once. Basically the males are constantly
Speaker 2: circling females because once that pup leaves, it's gonna go
Speaker 2: you know, reproduced to pass off its genes. And then
Speaker 2: once that happens, I mean, it's a terrifying show that
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm happy to describe it, but you.
Speaker 1: Know, give us the dirt one thousand content and trigger warnings.
Speaker 2: So normally, once once that female is free, the male
Speaker 2: would get on it and then essentially where the male
Speaker 2: will bite onto the female's nose. So often you'll see
Speaker 2: females with ripped noses and you can easily tell out
Speaker 2: the female just because it's biting down on that nose
Speaker 2: and basically forcing itself on it to you know, facets,
Speaker 2: facets genes.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So once that happens, the male just leaves and you'll
Speaker 2: probably never see the female ever again.
Speaker 1: Oh, I like want to file for restraining orders on
Speaker 1: behalf of female otters, Like this is not okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not okay. Do they have any defenses, like do
Speaker 1: they have thicker fur or do they have like an
Speaker 1: extra claw anywhere or like mace?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. And yeah, and also the females
Speaker 2: are much smaller than the male, so they're kind of
Speaker 2: defense less in that regard.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I want them to evolve a pepper
Speaker 1: spray land. That's horrible, horrible. I want them to go
Speaker 1: on strike and live in their own happy island. Me like,
Speaker 1: get your own urchin.
Speaker 2: I know, if only they could otherwise. Yeah, Like I said,
Speaker 2: basically that's the female life. And they do this for
Speaker 2: maybe like twelve fifteen years at the most in the wild,
Speaker 2: where basically they just get pregnant a couple times or
Speaker 2: like a lot of times during their lifetime and just
Speaker 2: reproduce and have pups and cycle just continues over and
Speaker 2: over again until they die from exhaustion. It's pretty nuts.
Speaker 1: Oh what about in captivity? We have no right obviously
Speaker 1: to enforce any of our like assumed ethics sexual ethics
Speaker 1: on otters. But in captivity, are they like, hey, dude,
Speaker 1: not at all? Or do they just have to let
Speaker 1: nature be terrible?
Speaker 2: No? So, usually in captivity all the odds that you
Speaker 2: might see in aquariums are all females because a lot
Speaker 2: of these bigger aquariums they actually use them as surrogates
Speaker 2: for wild otters that might be orphaned. So like if
Speaker 2: the mom and wild dies there's usually this pup that's
Speaker 2: worn and alone, and since they're threatened, at least in California,
Speaker 2: there's been a program to basically take these otters in,
Speaker 2: especially their females, still have the surrogates raise them until
Speaker 2: they can re release them in a wild when they're
Speaker 2: old enough.
Speaker 1: Do they do that in the wild, Do they like penguins,
Speaker 1: do they adopt orphaned otters in the wild or is
Speaker 1: that kind of unique to captivity that's usually.
Speaker 2: Unique to captivity. I don't think I've ever heard in
Speaker 2: any situation where a wild female would take in another
Speaker 2: stray pup. And usually if the stray pup is alone,
Speaker 2: it's not going to even survive for that long because
Speaker 2: it's basically defenseless and helpless, can't even go catch its
Speaker 2: own food by itself, so it'll just die. So so yeah,
Speaker 2: that's why, you know, like the Honorary Bery Queerreum really
Speaker 2: relies on stranding networks or like volunteers or people just
Speaker 2: you know, observing or seeing a wild otter by it
Speaker 2: like a little pup, somebody will call it in and
Speaker 2: they'll send out a team to bring it in. If
Speaker 2: they can't look at their mom or something like.
Speaker 1: That, and I mean, they're so cute. But now I'm
Speaker 1: like a little mad at the pups too. But why
Speaker 1: are they so cute? From a morphological as someone who's
Speaker 1: studied their bone structure and how long noodle they are?
Speaker 1: How and why are they so cute?
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I don't know why they are
Speaker 2: so cute, but how it's because their skulls are very
Speaker 2: flat faces. So if you look at a basically a
Speaker 2: newborn Sears skull, it doesn't have that snout pronounced snout yet,
Speaker 2: so it's very like a puppy dog face or like
Speaker 2: even like a newborn baby space and which I guess
Speaker 2: in our brains it's hardwired to, you know, want to
Speaker 2: like take it and hold it and protect it and
Speaker 2: all that.
Speaker 1: This side note is called baby schema, and it's when
Speaker 1: a juvenile organism has a large head and a round
Speaker 1: face and big eyes and smaller other features like ears
Speaker 1: and snout and mouth and fun fact, Mickey Mouse has
Speaker 1: aged in reverse, his features have grown more, maybe like
Speaker 1: with each decade. And when adults retain some cute characteristics,
Speaker 1: our brains get confused and say, protect them at all costs,
Speaker 1: even if they are ghoules like your tiny racist grandma
Speaker 1: or a seat otter.
Speaker 2: But in terms of why they might be like that
Speaker 2: in the wild, I have no idea, Like what what
Speaker 2: kind of selective advantage that is? Maybe other other animals
Speaker 2: think it's cute, or maybe they're moth or in other
Speaker 2: otter in individuals might might have some kind of selective
Speaker 2: pressure on it. But I have no idea.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to school. I'm going to
Speaker 1: get a PhD in otters. They're so cute because their
Speaker 1: babies are such assholes that you would literally not feed
Speaker 1: them if they weren't so cute?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Can I ask you some questions from listeners who know
Speaker 1: that you're coming on the show. Yeah, okay, we're just
Speaker 1: gonna lightning around. We're gonna see how many we can
Speaker 1: get through. Is that cool?
Speaker 2: Yep? Sounds great.
Speaker 1: But before we crack into your questions, we're going to
Speaker 1: toss some coins into an ocean of need and Chris
Speaker 1: chose c Otter Savvy, which increases awareness of protecting s
Speaker 1: otters and encourages responsible viewing guidelines and for more about
Speaker 1: what they do and check out volunteer opportunities see c
Speaker 1: ottersavvy dot org and savvy has two v's and not
Speaker 1: two a's, and I always mess it up, but yes.
Speaker 1: A donation went to c ottersavy dot org thanks to sponsors. Okay,
Speaker 1: your questions, the first being from an actual patron of
Speaker 1: the show. Okay, first question from a very important listener
Speaker 1: named Larry Ward, also known as a grand pod around here.
Speaker 1: It's my dad. He wanted to know they eat kelp
Speaker 1: or they just living That's a good question. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Do they eat kelp or do they just live in
Speaker 1: the kelp?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so otters don't eat the kelp, they just live
Speaker 2: in it. So they'll use it and wrap it, wrap
Speaker 2: themselves in it to you know, stay in one place
Speaker 2: if they're sleeping. But they really rely on it indirectly,
Speaker 2: just because it's such an important ecosystem in California where
Speaker 2: all they're basically invertebrate prey that they're eating, live off
Speaker 2: it or live under it or live on it. So
Speaker 2: it is really essential to them indirectly.
Speaker 1: Ah, So it's like their apartment and the grocery store
Speaker 1: all at once exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And yeah, they rarely leave it just because it's
Speaker 2: a nice protected area. So it's harder for predators to
Speaker 2: find them.
Speaker 1: Nice are they meat eaters? Only? They are carnivores, right,
Speaker 1: They typically just exist on just sushi buffet.
Speaker 2: Yep. They essentially eat your favorite types of seafood. So
Speaker 2: you got your snails, your clams, your muscles, your avalony
Speaker 2: or crabs and urchins. They also eat these kind of
Speaker 2: gross looking things called fat innkeeper worms.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you yes, I have. They look
Speaker 1: like dicks, they look like disembodied, horrible fluby dildos. Listen, okay, listen.
Speaker 1: These worms are also called penis fish, and I'm a
Speaker 1: fan of a phallus, trust me on that. But you
Speaker 1: have to imagine them just poking up like whack a
Speaker 1: moles in the mud, just like slop slop slupp going
Speaker 1: and when it's time to go potty, fat innkeeper worms
Speaker 1: squirt a steady liquid stream out of one end, and
Speaker 1: sometimes beaches are littered with these flaccid worms. They're beached
Speaker 1: by the thousands, like the most surreal dumb truck accident
Speaker 1: you've ever seen. But they're also a delicacy and they're
Speaker 1: considered an aphrodiji And like most things, it's really just
Speaker 1: set and setting. They're not as picturesque as maybe you
Speaker 1: would want them to be. But yeah, so fat innkeeper
Speaker 1: worms is what they're called.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they'll eat those as well, But most of
Speaker 2: their prey are usually hard shell pray because they contain
Speaker 2: more calories.
Speaker 1: A ha, okay, that brings us to a question that
Speaker 1: everybody asked. Jamie McNeil, Jaco's first time question asker, Francesca Huggins,
Speaker 1: Lenny Oslith, Jesse Herlbort, Alicia Henning, Emma Shortwood, Mariah McGregor.
Speaker 1: Everyone wanted to know, in Jaco's words, is there a
Speaker 1: commonality between otter's favorite rocks?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Do most otters use one particular kind of rock? Do
Speaker 1: they have a favorite rock? Jamie mcdeal wants to know,
Speaker 1: how do they pick? A lot of people need to
Speaker 1: know what's up with their rocks.
Speaker 2: So that is a myth. They do not have a
Speaker 2: favorite rock?
Speaker 1: What now? Flam flam busted? What? Wow? Okay?
Speaker 2: So often these rocks are pretty big, and they do
Speaker 2: I have like a little I guess you could call
Speaker 2: it a pocket, but it's just a flap of skin
Speaker 2: that they can keep praying. But these rocks are usually
Speaker 2: too big to do that. So normally what they do
Speaker 2: is that they come up with the rock and they're prey.
Speaker 2: They put the rock on their belly, use it as
Speaker 2: an anvil and break things, eat the things, and they
Speaker 2: keep doing that and basically when they're done with the rock,
Speaker 2: they just do a little turn, the rock falls down,
Speaker 2: and then they go on with their lives. Wow, so
Speaker 2: they don't really have that favorite rock. I mean, they
Speaker 2: might reuse the rock if it's the only rock that's available,
Speaker 2: because they are just right there and just decide to
Speaker 2: go back down to get more food and that rock
Speaker 2: happens to be there, so they might pick it up
Speaker 2: again to use it, but they're definitely not traveling around
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 1: That's hilarious. I completely thought like they had a fanny
Speaker 1: pack and they're like, where's my good rock? Not this rock?
Speaker 1: What about? You know, from like a philosophical perspective, is
Speaker 1: that tool use or is it only a tool if
Speaker 1: you use the rock to smash the clams and not
Speaker 1: the clams to smash on the you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean no, we call it. We still call
Speaker 2: it as a tool used because it is still you know,
Speaker 2: you're still putting an object onto your stomach and then
Speaker 2: actually using it as as a tool essentially to break
Speaker 2: something open. And I'll say that otters can also use
Speaker 2: other objects as tools. So sometimes they'll use another shell
Speaker 2: to break open in their shell, they'll use like bottles.
Speaker 2: They'll even use like docks in people's boats, which we
Speaker 2: like to break things open. So they will use anything.
Speaker 1: Now from using tools to being tools. I'm sorry, Daniel
Speaker 1: Schmanuel wants to know about their as long as we're
Speaker 1: just we're going to go back to them being terrible.
Speaker 1: Are the observations of sea otters assaulting sexually and killing
Speaker 1: baby seals? Are those common or is that exaggerated?
Speaker 2: I don't know how common it is, but it definitely
Speaker 2: is to a point where there's multiple observations of them
Speaker 2: doing that. So the way male's territories work is that
Speaker 2: the dominant mails have territories that you know, exclo other
Speaker 2: males from their territories, right, And in that kind of competition,
Speaker 2: there's always going to be losers and they're excluded from
Speaker 2: these territories. So if they can't have their own territory
Speaker 2: to mate with females, they just get I guess frustrated
Speaker 2: and find the little baby seal to do. It's you know,
Speaker 2: to basically bit, I guess, and that's usually doesn't end
Speaker 2: well with the seal.
Speaker 1: Wow. Sometimes it doesn't end well even for the otters.
Speaker 1: And according to a hellscape of a study titled Patterns
Speaker 1: of Mortality in Southern sea Otters, about eleven percent of
Speaker 1: dearly departed sea otters spotted by researchers died by mating
Speaker 1: trauma eleven percent. And the violence is not just male
Speaker 1: to female within same species. Boy bottles sea otters can
Speaker 1: also hit below the proverbial anthropomorphized beltline.
Speaker 2: One thing that's crazy about these male to male conflicts
Speaker 2: is that when they fight each other, they essentially go
Speaker 2: after each other's vaculums, which in carnivorans, there's a Carnivorans
Speaker 2: have a bone called vaculum in their penis, so they
Speaker 2: go after each each other's vaculum to try to break it. Oh,
Speaker 2: it's pretty brutal out there.
Speaker 1: How did they learn how to be such assholes? Are
Speaker 1: most like North American mammals. Are most animals this ferocious,
Speaker 1: And we're just surprised because they're pretty adorable.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I have no idea how that compares to other
Speaker 2: mammals groups. One of the nice things about sea otters
Speaker 2: is that they have to come to the surface and
Speaker 2: they just float. So it's just so easy to get
Speaker 2: these observations because they're also really close to shore, so
Speaker 2: like we're aboare to get these detailed information, whereas like
Speaker 2: other smaller animals, like even river otters, it's really hard
Speaker 2: to spot them and actually see what they're doing in
Speaker 2: the wild. In the wild, so who knows what they're
Speaker 2: doing out there?
Speaker 1: Weird lucky stuff. You know what's funny is I just
Speaker 1: looked at Emma Sherwood asked. I learned on a high
Speaker 1: school field trip to the zoo that mail orders break
Speaker 1: each other's dicks to reduce competition. Is this true?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: There you go, Emma Sherwood knows what's up. Yeah. Kathleen
Speaker 1: Sachs wants to know. Can a troop of dedicated river
Speaker 1: otters really kill an alligator or a crocodile? Is that
Speaker 1: flim flam?
Speaker 2: So there's these things called giant river otters in South
Speaker 2: America and the Amazon, and these things are a little
Speaker 2: bit longer than the sea otters. And if you ever
Speaker 2: see pictures of these ones. They are so weird looking.
Speaker 2: They are another older lineage of otters that kind of
Speaker 2: offshoot from other otters, like ten million years ago or so.
Speaker 2: But they got really like buggy eyes and they got
Speaker 2: their their faces just like at like like an alien otter.
Speaker 2: But these guys are huge, and they actually are in
Speaker 2: family units, and they will actually go after sometimes go
Speaker 2: after like Cayman's. And there are even reports of them
Speaker 2: like fighting off jaguars no, which is pretty and crazy.
Speaker 1: For more on that, join the four point two million
Speaker 1: other humans who have watched a YouTube video titled Giant
Speaker 1: Otter bite jaguar Head seriously injured for daring to attack
Speaker 1: its comrades, uploaded by user Wildlife Today, and this and
Speaker 1: the other like fourteen videos I subsequently watched taught me
Speaker 1: that a brawl with giant river otters sounds a lot
Speaker 1: like the worst game of Marco Polo. Why well, according
Speaker 1: to the paper Airborne vocal communication in adult neotropical otters,
Speaker 1: these creatures have like a menu of sounds they make
Speaker 1: to chit chat, from a ha it's like their own
Speaker 1: personal siren, to infant babbling, and something called a hum
Speaker 1: gradation that means yo bear left go left. We're going
Speaker 1: left to direct the group. And yes, some otters have
Speaker 1: more friends than us, but let's try to forget that fact.
Speaker 2: I mean, well, yeah, the advantage for those guys is
Speaker 2: that they are in a group setting, so they have
Speaker 2: kind of each other's back to try to, you know,
Speaker 2: fight off predators that might try to attack their young Dang.
Speaker 1: I do not want to be on the wrong side
Speaker 1: of an otter vendetta. Ever, I will have my vengeance,
Speaker 1: you know what, Let's try to steer this towards the
Speaker 1: positives again. Okay, life is such a bummer. It's such
Speaker 1: a bummer, but it's imperative. We find the good and
Speaker 1: we grasp it and we clutch at it like a
Speaker 1: booi in the cold, roiling sea, and we hug the
Speaker 1: booy hug the good. What about playfulness and cuteness? Anna Thompson,
Speaker 1: Maury Pelte, Nicole Kleinman, Michelle Tang, Becky the Sassy Seagrass,
Speaker 1: Scientist Pierce Franklin. They all want to know how cute
Speaker 1: does it get? Pierce wants to know, what's the cutest
Speaker 1: thing you've ever seen an otter do?
Speaker 2: The cutest thing I've ever seen is probably just like
Speaker 2: a little baby sea otter pup that's just floating by itself,
Speaker 2: waiting for its mom. I mean, I know I told
Speaker 2: you about how just waiting for mom to bring up
Speaker 2: dinner essentially, but before that, it's just floating by itself
Speaker 2: like a little cork, closed eyes all fluffy and like,
Speaker 2: just look at me, I'm so adorable. Like it's got
Speaker 2: like ten photographers just around, like along the coast or
Speaker 2: coast trying to take up its picture, including me, Like
Speaker 2: it's adorable. Probably the most playful time I've seen otters.
Speaker 2: Actually river otters, they actually play so like they will
Speaker 2: swim next to each other or like go up and
Speaker 2: down or just run all over the place. So I've
Speaker 2: seen that in river otters, but I've never really seen
Speaker 2: that sea otters.
Speaker 1: Ronan, Taylor, Ann and Kate Tim's all want to know
Speaker 1: why do they love ice so much? In Kate's words,
Speaker 1: and Roda wants to know do they get cold? Roda says,
Speaker 1: we have otters in our local river in Scotland and
Speaker 1: it's magical when you see them, but oh boy, it
Speaker 1: gets so chilly. How do they stay cold in an
Speaker 1: icy river?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So sea otters have the densest fur I think
Speaker 2: of all mammals, so basically, sea otters have no fat
Speaker 2: on them whatsoever. That are really relying on that dense fur,
Speaker 2: and it does keep them warm, super warm, So that's
Speaker 2: why they're able to tolerate living in all these freezing
Speaker 2: frigid environments just fine. And I would imagine river otters
Speaker 2: also have similarly dense furs, so that's why they're able
Speaker 2: to live like Scotland and all these other cold places
Speaker 2: and play in the snow.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 1: Sea otters, unlike most marine mammals, do not have layers
Speaker 1: of blubber. This was news to me, and this is
Speaker 1: also why their fur is so soft, up to illustrous
Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty five thousand hairs per square centimeter.
Speaker 1: Eurasian river otters about seventy thousand hairs per square centimeter.
Speaker 1: What about us, a species that has fewer friends than otters, Well,
Speaker 1: we only have one hundred and twenty four to two
Speaker 1: hundred hairs per square centimeter. Talking about the business end
Speaker 1: of one, Francesca Huggins, Miranda Panda, Claire Johnson, and specs
Speaker 1: Awl all would love to talk about their poop and
Speaker 1: several people wanted to know what they smell like. Francesca asked,
Speaker 1: I heard that otter poop smells like violets. What in
Speaker 1: the otter shit? Is this true? Why? Clara says that
Speaker 1: they went to the zoo and the guide said that
Speaker 1: otter poop is noteworthy, but then said nothing else. So
Speaker 1: what is noteworthy about otter poop?
Speaker 2: I definitely have never heard otter poop being described as violets.
Speaker 2: I have never smelled I've never smelled otter poop, but
Speaker 2: I would imagine it smells like the worst shit you
Speaker 2: could ever smell, because they're eating seafood, like a seafood,
Speaker 2: and that doesn't smell good. So I don't think I
Speaker 2: ever wanted to smell it, but I've never smelled it,
Speaker 2: But I would imagine it smelling the worst thing you.
Speaker 1: Could smell, Right, That's what I would think. Also, you know,
Speaker 1: we had a scatologist on who works at the Chicago
Speaker 1: Zoo and just has like thirteen freezers full of different
Speaker 1: zoo animal shit, so I may have to ask her,
Speaker 1: But first I asked the Internet about the smell of
Speaker 1: an otter turd, which is known scientifically as a sprint,
Speaker 1: and it can be accompanied by a musky glop known
Speaker 1: as anal jelly. And Ian Craft of the website Total
Speaker 1: Ecology writes, when fresh spray emits a distinct sweet odor
Speaker 1: that is not at all unpleasant, and our friend Tias
Speaker 1: Williams aka Science with Tyas on Twitter said it's similar
Speaker 1: to the odorous, sleep hungent waft of dog poop, but
Speaker 1: least with the fishiness of their marine diet. And doctor
Speaker 1: Danny Ravioti, author of the best selling book Does It Fart,
Speaker 1: told me it's acrid and fishy. Quote like a tin
Speaker 1: of anchovies and oil were left in the sun for
Speaker 1: four days and then a bunch of musky man perfume
Speaker 1: was sprayed on top of it. I also saw that
Speaker 1: Twitter user Forrester Sahita described the smell as similar to
Speaker 1: jasmine tea. Others said herrings in an ash tray, freshly
Speaker 1: mown hay lavender, but no one's first hand account topped
Speaker 1: that of Jim Manthorpe, who penned the BBC op ed
Speaker 1: quote The Delicious Scent of Otter Poo, which contains this
Speaker 1: journey of a paragraph. Otter sprint is one of the
Speaker 1: least defensive smells in the world of excrement. It has
Speaker 1: a slightly fishy punch and odor. It is a delight.
Speaker 1: Whenever I see it, I plant my knees in the grass,
Speaker 1: lean over, and draw its delicious smell into my lungs okay, Jim.
Speaker 1: I needed fact, though not opinion, so I reached out
Speaker 1: to scatology guest Rachel Santomoor aka Doctor Pooh, and she
Speaker 1: responded with alacrity. Bless her writing me quote. Otters live
Speaker 1: in and around water, so they eat fish, among other
Speaker 1: aquatic and non aquatic species, so otter poo can be
Speaker 1: quite smelly. After reading the delicious scent of Otter Pooh,
Speaker 1: she writes, it seems to me that Otter Pooh reminds
Speaker 1: the author of the sea. Think about when you go
Speaker 1: to the ocean and it smells a little fishy and salty.
Speaker 1: It smells like the ocean, a place where you want
Speaker 1: to be, a place that reminds you of summer vacation,
Speaker 1: sand castles, body surfing, being with your family and relax,
Speaker 1: she writes. She continues, so even though otter Pooh is smelly,
Speaker 1: it reminds the author of something they like and where
Speaker 1: they want to be. So y'all, as long as it
Speaker 1: doesn't hurt anyone. Find your joy, cut bangs, text your crush,
Speaker 1: sniff on a sprint. Now, what do you do if
Speaker 1: you would like to use different holes in your face
Speaker 1: to experience and otter any tips on seeing them rather
Speaker 1: than sniffing? Well, Patrons Kate Alward, Sheila zinc, Kelly Salmon,
Speaker 1: Winny's Witch, and Miranda Panda all desperately wanted otter spotter tips.
Speaker 1: What about some of the field work that you have
Speaker 1: gotten to do. And there are several folks and I'll
Speaker 1: listen to and aside who want to know if you
Speaker 1: have any tips for spotting them in the wild. Do
Speaker 1: you get to get out there with like, you know,
Speaker 1: fleece and down vests and binoculars and get out there
Speaker 1: to look for them?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've done that a couple of times. I
Speaker 2: was primarily trying to film their toolsing behavior so we
Speaker 2: could try to quantify the kinematics behind it. So, I mean,
Speaker 2: I call it it's not really I mean, I guess
Speaker 2: you could technically call it field work, but it's basically
Speaker 2: you go to the beach and you just have a
Speaker 2: little camping chair, set up the camera and just hang
Speaker 2: out there until you see an otter that's close enough
Speaker 2: to start filming or take photos of it, and like,
Speaker 2: it's California, so it's like, what a nice seventy sunny day,
Speaker 2: can't complain? Yeah, so it's not. Yeah, yeah, it's obviously
Speaker 2: very rough field work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds absolutely terrible. I hope we don't have
Speaker 1: like a sandwich or anything, or nice cold beverage like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's awful.
Speaker 2: No. I usually I usually go with the chocolate croissant.
Speaker 1: That sounds like the best thing ever. Becky the Seacrest
Speaker 1: Scientist again, you know, Becky wants to know is a
Speaker 1: group of otters really called a frolic? And if not,
Speaker 1: can you make that official? Is that real? Are they
Speaker 1: called a frolic?
Speaker 2: I've never heard of that, but I like it. It makes sense.
Speaker 1: Okay, well then good it's called that now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just said if we all just start using that,
Speaker 2: it'll eventually catch on. I think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hereby known as a frolic. Horrible news. Again,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry we jumped the gun here. It's already
Speaker 1: got a name, and it's not a frolic. A group
Speaker 1: of otters is called a romp on land in the
Speaker 1: water it's called a raft. And I searched for literally hours.
Speaker 1: Nowhere in the literature could I find any mention of
Speaker 1: them being called a frolic. Romp goes back to the
Speaker 1: fourteen hundreds when there was a tome called the Book
Speaker 1: of Saint Albans, and it listed plural nouns for different animals, including,
Speaker 1: let's just do it. Let's list a couple, an embarrassment
Speaker 1: of pandas passel of possums, a conspiracy of lemurs, a
Speaker 1: committee of mongooses, a thunder of hippopotami, and many others,
Speaker 1: including a grumble of pugs, perhaps grouchy from having a
Speaker 1: vertebra stolen. But Nature writer Nicholas Lund has gone on
Speaker 1: record and reported, no, these terms are not white used scientifically,
Speaker 1: no matter how old they are. But romp is legit.
Speaker 1: It's established if you were to visit the Wikipedia page
Speaker 1: list of animal names. I'm telling you right now, the
Speaker 1: lead image they have on the page is of a
Speaker 1: sea honor, so romp it is. Sorry, babies, Amelia Frank
Speaker 1: wants to know. I always hear on Nature shows about
Speaker 1: how vital it is that otter moms keep their babies dry,
Speaker 1: but then like they hold them on their bellies and
Speaker 1: there is inevitably some flipper or tail dropping the water.
Speaker 1: So do they have to keep them one hundred percent dry?
Speaker 1: Because that sounds anxiety provoking, Amelia says, should they not
Speaker 1: get soaked? Can you get it? Can you get one wet?
Speaker 1: Or is it like a gremlin?
Speaker 2: No, they're definitely waterproof. They can get wet. The reason
Speaker 2: why the mom is trying to dry it out, it's
Speaker 2: just to conserve heat. It's also cleaning the furs. So
Speaker 2: otters spend like a third of their life just cleaning,
Speaker 2: grooming just to make because they rely on that fur
Speaker 2: as that installation, they have to make sure that it's
Speaker 2: clean from all that dirt or debris or whatever, to
Speaker 2: make sure it's actually functioning so that it doesn't clump
Speaker 2: up and expose its skin to the cold environment. So
Speaker 2: they really really want to get those puffs nice and clean.
Speaker 2: And usually it also happened to dry them out.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so it's not it's definitely not like
Speaker 1: if a drop of water gets on this, it's you're
Speaker 1: screwed forever, right Okay?
Speaker 2: Oh no, yeahs sears are born to be in the water.
Speaker 1: So Courtney, kay wants to know if river otters actually
Speaker 1: have a communal toilet. Do they have like middens?
Speaker 2: I think so, but don't quote me on that. What
Speaker 2: river otters do a lot, though, is that they'll mark territories,
Speaker 2: So they'll basically leave scent marks all over the place
Speaker 2: and they might go to the same location all the
Speaker 2: time just to make sure that that's, you know, the
Speaker 2: boundary of their territory. So maybe that is related to that.
Speaker 1: The otter potties side note, are called latrines, and they
Speaker 1: are considered to be hangout destinations where dude otters catch
Speaker 1: up and exchange information, kind of like walking onto the
Speaker 1: set of Cheers, but instead of bruskies, it's poohoo. Also,
Speaker 1: speaking of chilling, I feel like this is an appropriate
Speaker 1: place to inform you that an otter's den is also
Speaker 1: called a couch, you know what. Let's talk teeth patrons.
Speaker 1: Jesseb Jesse, Hurlbert and even had questions. A few people
Speaker 1: wanted to know about their teeth. Anna Zimmer says, I
Speaker 1: recently heard an otter chewing. I was tens of feet
Speaker 1: away across the water and could barely believe my ears.
Speaker 1: Tell me about their chompers.
Speaker 2: So otters, or at least the otter teeth look very
Speaker 2: similar to ours. They're at least their molars. It's nice
Speaker 2: and big and flat, perfect just to crunch things. So
Speaker 2: often if you go to where sars are and you're
Speaker 2: really quiet, you can actually hear them crunching on that
Speaker 2: hard shell and it's actually pretty amazing. And what's super
Speaker 2: cool about those the adaptations that is that they're enamel
Speaker 2: on their molars are actually fracture resistant, So they've evolved
Speaker 2: to basically be able to sustain all that all that
Speaker 2: fracture forces from the prey they're eating. Because if you
Speaker 2: imagine if you are trying to eat through clamshells, your
Speaker 2: teeth would get destroyed.
Speaker 1: Oh you'd be so fu Yeah, your dentist would be like,
Speaker 1: thank you. What makes it fracture resistant? Do they have
Speaker 1: a ton of people in like DARPA trying to figure
Speaker 1: out otter teeth so they can make better weapons or something.
Speaker 2: So I don't know about that, but there are definitely
Speaker 2: people that have looked at the material properties of those teeth,
Speaker 2: and I don't remember exactly what the kind of minerals
Speaker 2: they have, but they've done comparisons with like ancient humans
Speaker 2: that had much bigger jaws and bigger molars to crush
Speaker 2: those types of seeds as well, And it's very similar
Speaker 2: morphologies and it's pretty pretty impressive. So it's like kind
Speaker 2: of through convergent evolution that these type of molars have
Speaker 2: have evolved to be a perfect teeth to crush things.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. For more on this, you can see the
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine paper enthusiastically titled the Remarkable Resilience
Speaker 1: of Teeth, which straight up compares the strength of a
Speaker 1: human molar to a sea otters and humans maximum load
Speaker 1: eighty seven pounds of bite force, but otters over one
Speaker 1: hundred more than a cheetah, almost as much as a wolf.
Speaker 1: But how do see otter molars not split while they're
Speaker 1: chopping on clamshells? Oh, they do, they do split, But
Speaker 1: this paper said that they're molars and ours crack all
Speaker 1: the time in micro fissures and then proteins rush in
Speaker 1: to spackle them. But still don't eat rocks. On the
Speaker 1: topic of hardness, what about the hardest thing about your job,
Speaker 1: the hardest thing about being an outologist. There's got to
Speaker 1: be solo sucks.
Speaker 2: But there's just so many things to learn about them,
Speaker 2: there's not enough time. So, like we know so much
Speaker 2: about sea otters, oh relatively, just because they're easier to study,
Speaker 2: But in terms of the other otters, especially the ones
Speaker 2: that are like in Asia or South America, those ones
Speaker 2: are very are much harder to study just because of
Speaker 2: their locations and because their population sizes. They're either shrinking
Speaker 2: or we have no idea. Another otter species down in
Speaker 2: South America called the marine otter, and it looks like
Speaker 2: a river otter, but it actually lives in a marine
Speaker 2: environment too, and it actually eats a lot of hardshell
Speaker 2: prey too. But we have barely any idea of like
Speaker 2: what exactly it's doing, what it's population sizes, it it
Speaker 2: might not be doing well just because there's not a
Speaker 2: lot of work done on them, and just in these
Speaker 2: remote locations.
Speaker 1: What do you love the most about them? What do
Speaker 1: you just fall in love with when it comes to
Speaker 1: doing this work.
Speaker 2: It's just there's just such interesting animals. The fact that
Speaker 2: they have this integration between their tool using behavior, their
Speaker 2: morphology is just unique compared to other things. Like it's
Speaker 2: just interesting that they are able to gain access to
Speaker 2: these harder prey. One thing I didn't touch on is
Speaker 2: that in Monterey Bay, these otters actually exhibit dietary specialization.
Speaker 2: So some oters will only eat urchins, others won't only
Speaker 2: eat clams, others won'tly eat crabs, and so on. So
Speaker 2: part of my research now is actually trying to investigate
Speaker 2: why that is or how they're actually able to eat
Speaker 2: these different type of prey. So how is it relating
Speaker 2: to the tool using behavior, and how is it relating
Speaker 2: back to their variation and their biting ability? So as in,
Speaker 2: are some orders just able to generate larger bite forces
Speaker 2: than other orders? So that's type of questions that we're
Speaker 2: hoping to be able to answer soon.
Speaker 1: Is that regional little pockets or is it completely individual
Speaker 1: like one sister might be eating urchins while a brother's
Speaker 1: eating clams.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so right now, that's I think primarily found just
Speaker 2: in California, And it goes back to that carrying capacity.
Speaker 2: So because that population is limited in terms of resources
Speaker 2: and food, instead of each individual being a journalist basically
Speaker 2: eat everything they can get, they just become super specialized
Speaker 2: and just become really good at eating a particular prey.
Speaker 2: So one individual will just become a really good urchin
Speaker 2: specialist and spousal. There's a certain way you have to
Speaker 2: extract them, a certain way. You have to like open
Speaker 2: them and eat them, versus like an abalone specialist, which
Speaker 2: uses completely different behaviors in order to get the abalony
Speaker 2: and and eat it. So they just become these really
Speaker 2: highly specialized individuals that really are able to get access
Speaker 2: to these different prey items and do it so well
Speaker 2: that and efficiently, And that's just the way that they
Speaker 2: can increase that caloric income versus just becoming just a
Speaker 2: journalist and eat everything they see.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so funny. It's absolutely me eating scrambled eggs
Speaker 1: for dinner like it's fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, once you once you know how
Speaker 2: to do it, just go for it. Right, Well I
Speaker 2: learned something new. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love the idea of someone peeking through my windows
Speaker 1: being like, make a note she's having she's having scrambled
Speaker 1: eggs for dinner too.
Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing with these otters that you know
Speaker 2: they're they're they're flipper tag so people can actually id them.
Speaker 2: And usually the Monitor Bay Aquarium has lots of volunteers
Speaker 2: to go out to observe these otters on a daily basis,
Speaker 2: so they're basically if you were out there, they would
Speaker 2: be tracking how many eggs did you use, how did
Speaker 2: you pretty salt, did you use a fork? How did
Speaker 2: you cook your eggs? So essentially they're basically tracking all
Speaker 2: of that informations that are tracking how many prey ams
Speaker 2: they're eating, what kind of prey items, and estimate the
Speaker 2: size of those prey items where they use tools for
Speaker 2: that prey item. It's pretty nuts. Wow, it's pretty amazing data.
Speaker 1: I bet the people who have to organize the volunteer
Speaker 1: staff at the Monterey bayquer Area they mis get so
Speaker 1: many folks who are like, if you need you need
Speaker 1: a volunteer to watch the auto, I'm available. I'm available.
Speaker 1: Like that's got to be a long list of.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, who doesn't want to spend a nice,
Speaker 2: nice morning hanging out by the coast and watching some
Speaker 2: sea otters eat their dinner or eat their breakfast.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, well, meanwhile, someone's watching you and being
Speaker 1: like doctor Laws having another chocolate croissant. We don't know why.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, the artists could totally be just watch
Speaker 2: me back.
Speaker 1: I hope they thank you. So so much for being on.
Speaker 1: This is a joy. Yeah, I hate orders more than
Speaker 1: I thought.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for definitely having me on.
Speaker 1: So ask smart people shameless questions as always, and then
Speaker 1: just sit back and real and horror. You can follow
Speaker 1: doctor Chris Law on Twitter at Chris underscore j Underscore
Speaker 1: Law and you can enjoy orders from a distance. You
Speaker 1: can enjoy them online if you sniff a sprain, I'd
Speaker 1: like to hear about it. I don't know if I
Speaker 1: do want to. Actually, I do want to hear about it.
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Speaker 1: Dwyer makes the website and can make yours. Nick Thorburn
Speaker 1: made the theme music and editing was done by the
Speaker 1: quite handsome writer and published poet Jared Sleeper, who just
Speaker 1: debuted his first ever book. It's called one hundred Poems.
Speaker 1: I'm putting a link in the show notes to it
Speaker 1: because he has a gorgeous, beautiful brain that strings together
Speaker 1: words so well. Hundred Poems by Jared Sleeper. I'm so
Speaker 1: thrilled about it, I literally could cry. If you listen
Speaker 1: to the end of the episode, you know I tell
Speaker 1: you a secret and this week. It's that we fought
Speaker 1: off COVID, so that's good. I'm still back in LA
Speaker 1: for a little bit since my dad was feeling stronger
Speaker 1: and we were just hovering too much. In the last
Speaker 1: few weeks have maybe been the most anxiety I maybe
Speaker 1: have ever felt in my life. But we're taking it
Speaker 1: day by day. I've also taken a pickleball, and by
Speaker 1: that I mean I've played it one time and I
Speaker 1: liked it. It's kind of like outdoor ping pong, but
Speaker 1: on a small tennis court and with a whiffle ball,
Speaker 1: and it makes a very satisfying thuax out. Also, my
Speaker 1: dear friend and a recent LA transplant, Cole and Perry
Speaker 1: from the Pantatology episode, has started a Northeast LA pickleball club.
Speaker 1: So I look forward to relishing my future opponent's defeats.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned for that. Okay, take care, be nice to
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 3: Okay, I love you, Bye bye.
Speaker 2: And what are we looking at?
Speaker 1: You're looking at sea otters, six of them here. They
Speaker 1: go down to the bottom. They get a stone, and
Speaker 1: they go down to the bottom. They get a seashell
Speaker 1: and then they smash the shell with the stone. At
Speaker 1: that what's cooln't it