WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:04.360 Oh hey, it's a lone air pod under the bench 2 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:08.919 at a bus stop. Alleyward back with fresh horrors for you. 3 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.279 Let's not get ahead of ourselves though, but straight up, 4 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:14.640 if kids are listening with you, think about high tailing 5 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:17.359 it right now to Asmologies episode. Instead, they're in the 6 00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:20.519 main podcast feed. They're up at alleyward dot com slash Smologies, 7 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:22.960 which is linked in the show notes. Smologies are short 8 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.679 and classroom safe. This one is not. It is not. 9 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:29.879 Are we good? Good? Okay, let's get to otters. First off, 10 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.039 thank you listener Isaiah Nubins, who suggested this guest, in 11 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:36.000 particular after hearing a review I read from a Wix 12 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:40.640 from the Urology episode and a Wix dreamed that Loutrology 13 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:43.679 was an episode. And your dreams are coming true right now, 14 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:45.920 all of our dreams. Also, thank you just to everyone 15 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:48.280 for leaving and writing reviews. They matter so much. I 16 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.880 read every single one. And this week we hit a 17 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:54.320 really big lifelong goal of mine because of your reviews 18 00:00:54.359 --> 00:00:58.840 and subscribing, and Ologies was the number one science podcasts 19 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:02.359 on Apple. It's been five years we hit number one. People. 20 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:06.280 Let's do some air horns and a tiny imperceptible butt dance. 21 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:10.719 Good job, huge giant goal. I can't believe it. Thank 22 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:13.200 you so much. Thanks also to everyone on patreon dot 23 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:16.439 com slash ologies for supporting the show. Each week, though 24 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:18.319 for reviews I pick a fresh one to prove that 25 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.120 I see them all. And this week thank you to Shermworm, 26 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:24.359 who wrote come for the science facts, stay for the fields. 27 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:27.400 And also thank you future ologist Mackenzie King, who described 28 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:31.319 the show as a massage to my brain while drinking espresso. Okay, 29 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:35.280 get into it. Liutrology it's a word. It's been cited 30 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:41.120 in the literature one time, but that counts. JC von Voppelklein, 31 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:45.280 a prominent scholar of crustaceans, coined it while describing a 32 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:48.200 study about sea otters that was so well written it 33 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.239 was an interesting read quote even for the non lutrinologist. 34 00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:55.519 So lutriside note comes from a mix of old old 35 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:59.840 words for water, hence otter water water and then the 36 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:02.879 hill they think was maybe picked up from lupis like 37 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:07.159 a water wolf or ludo meaning to play. It's anyone's guess, 38 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.719 but otters are in the same mustulant family as weasels 39 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:15.000 and wolverines and minx and also badgers, and they are 40 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:18.879 full of must and musk and mischief. And you're about 41 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.800 to get absolutely destroyed by otter facts. Your small talk 42 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:24.439 will never recover. Otters will be all you think about 43 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:27.439 for the remainder of your life. Also with that, I 44 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.319 have to issue a trigger and a content warning without 45 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:34.680 spoiling too much. Otters are not not violent, and many 46 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:38.919 of their behaviors would result in criminal charges if water 47 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.719 weasels had a justice system. But in other ways they're 48 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:46.039 better at relationships than we are now. This otter expert 49 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:49.159 studied environmental systems for undergrad and got his PhD in 50 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:52.639 ecology and evolutionary biology at UC Santa Cruz and is 51 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.080 now doing a postdoc at the University of Washington in 52 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.199 connection with the American Museum of Natural History and the 53 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.919 University of Texas. So buckle up, boy, howdie hot damn 54 00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:06.280 get ready for coastal versus inland otters. Skull morphology that 55 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:12.639 tricks our brains, teeth, fur beach pastries, rock pockets, the 56 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:18.520 perils of selfless motherhood, kelp naps, the nostalgia of otter droppings, 57 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:23.039 molar crunching, and of course, outter handholding. With scientists and 58 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:46.080 certified otter expert lutrinologist, doctor Chris Law. 59 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:48.280 My name is Chris Law and. 60 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.759 I go by him cool and doctor correct. 61 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:54.800 Yes, doctor Law. 62 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:59.319 We had a suggestion for this ology a few weeks ago. 63 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.680 Someone had a dream also that there was an Otters 64 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:04.840 episode and they woke up and looked for it, and 65 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.039 then they realized that they just drumed it up. And 66 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.639 so that is why we hustled to find you, because 67 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:13.280 someone had a need for an Otter episode. So can 68 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:16.720 you tell me how you came to be a weasel wizard? 69 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:22.279 Yeah, So I essentially started my guest science career with 70 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:25.759 polycate worms during my undergrad at UC San Diego. 71 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:30.279 These are bristly segmented marine worms, which are almost as 72 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:33.040 cute as otters if you're into worms. 73 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:37.040 And then as I was applying grad school, I met 74 00:04:37.120 --> 00:04:41.639 with my future pachy advisor, Rita Meta at UC Santa 75 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:45.519 Cruz and we're just chatting about potential research projects. And 76 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:49.319 she studies more at EELS, So I was just assuming 77 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.600 I was going to be working on some fish project, 78 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:53.399 which is fine because that was my plan to go 79 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:56.680 off the food chain. But then we were just chatting 80 00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:59.399 a little bit, and she just brought up the idea, 81 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:01.519 why don't you work on sea otters because we're in 82 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.000 Santa Cruz and they're just all over the place, And 83 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:06.680 obviously I was like, ah, yeah, of course. 84 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.600 So Chris has lived up and down the sunny Pacific 85 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:13.399 coast in San Diego and Santa Cruz and Orange County 86 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.519 and like nearly every California and he was familiar with 87 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:19.839 sea otters, so the suggestion to work on them was like, Hell, yes, 88 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.680 jackpot Jack Potter. 89 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:26.240 I've seen them before, and like, there are adorable little 90 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:28.240 teddy bears that you just want to hug, and who 91 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.759 doesn't want to work on them? So like the moment 92 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.279 she said that, kind of just jumped on that bandwagon 93 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:37.120 and started doing some research into what potential projects I 94 00:05:37.160 --> 00:05:40.519 could could do. And since they eat all these hard 95 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:43.959 shell preaetoms, one of the questions we really wanted to 96 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:46.240 look at is just how are they actually breaking into 97 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:49.439 those hard items? So kind of just got started on that. 98 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:53.160 So basically in undergrad I come from like a phylogenetics 99 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:57.519 background and evolutionary background, so I'm kind of halfway through 100 00:05:57.680 --> 00:05:59.959 working with sea otters or starting to look into sea otters. 101 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.160 I just got this idea, I have to build a 102 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:05.920 phylogenic tree of all of the not only otters, but 103 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:09.240 the weasels, martins, wolverine, all those guys. So I just 104 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.079 started building that phylogenic tree and then just learning a 105 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.639 bunch of natural history by reading about this group, Like 106 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:17.199 I have first daven know that weasels were related to otters, 107 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.160 So learned more about weasels and kind of went this 108 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:23.040 down this rabbit hole to want to study why they 109 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:23.879 so elongate. 110 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:28.120 Yeah, they are like the docxins of the sea. Why 111 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.319 are they so long and squiggly? 112 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.759 The idea is that it came around fifteen or so 113 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.160 million years ago. That's during the mid mass seeing client transition, 114 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:43.480 when temperatures drastically decreased and this expansion of grasslands occurred, 115 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:47.000 which then led to diversification of rodents. So then this 116 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:51.160 body elongation is hypothesized to have allowed those weasel like 117 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:54.600 creatures to go underground to chase all those rodents in 118 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.160 these tight crevices and whatnot. 119 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.959 Wow, I had no idea that that is why bodies 120 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.360 were long. I mean, is that what doc sins are doing? 121 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:06.439 Aren't they kind of like rodent hol dwellers. 122 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.720 Yeah, so that's the idea between or behind their kind 123 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:12.959 of artificial selection, right where people really are trying to 124 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:15.839 breathe these elongate looking dogs so they can go in 125 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:19.319 these tight crevices or burrows to try to get those rodents. 126 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:20.839 And during hunting. 127 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:24.839 Are they are they just chock full of vertebrate? Do 128 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.120 they have more vertebrae or do they just have longer 129 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:28.639 vertebrae than other animals. 130 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:31.279 That is a fascinating question. So like if you think 131 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:35.160 of snakes or eels, they become more elongate by just 132 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:39.319 simply adding more vertebrae, which makes sense right, But then 133 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:42.759 with mammals, we're actually constrained to the number of vertebrate 134 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.680 that we have. So in carnivorans, which like dogs, bears, cats, 135 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:51.720 they have about twenty thoracic lumbar vertebrate and that number 136 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:56.480 rarely rarely changes, So it can't become elongate by just 137 00:07:56.560 --> 00:08:01.839 adding additional vertebrate. They have to actually evolve relatively longer vertebrae. 138 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:06.639 I was always wondering that about like my short ish 139 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:11.079 poodle dog versus a docksen or like a weasel, those long, 140 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:16.839 almost wormy bodies just have longer backbones each individually. 141 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.439 Yeah, exactly, so they have the exact same number vertebrae. 142 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:24.000 It's just some of those breeds might have relatively longer ones, 143 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:25.920 although no one, I don't think anybody has really looked 144 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:27.839 into that. So it would be really interesting to see 145 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:31.439 the skeletal elements of what actually contributes to those different 146 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:33.639 body plans in these different breeds. 147 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:36.519 So yes, every time you see a dog that you 148 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:39.480 would like to pet, know that it has thirty main 149 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:44.240 vertebrae and then between five to twenty three bonus tailbones. 150 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.840 And Corgeese side note, they're born with tails. Did you 151 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:51.159 know that big bushy foxtails google It same with Australian 152 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.080 shepherds and other herding dogs. But they tend to get 153 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:56.799 the chop by breeders because when they were actually used 154 00:08:56.840 --> 00:08:59.440 for hurting, no one wanted a stumped on tail. And 155 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:03.480 I read one twenty eighteen study titled C seven vertebra 156 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:08.440 homoaotic transformation in Domestic Dogs are Pug dogs breaking mammalian 157 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.919 evolutionary constraints which found that twenty five percent of pugs 158 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:15.759 have one fewer vertebra than all other breeds. And I 159 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:18.480 like to think that there's some b robed man in 160 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:22.639 the sky and God took a vertebra from a snorting, 161 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:26.120 farting pug dog and made humans with it. Now, how 162 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:28.279 many do you have? Well, you were probably born with 163 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:32.159 thirty three, but you now have around twenty four. What happened, Dad? 164 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:34.480 I think you ate the bones. Nope, they just kind 165 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:36.879 of fused together at the bottom like a bag of 166 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.679 raisinetes you left in a hot car, only it's your 167 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:42.399 sacral spine and your coccyx. For more on this, see 168 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.279 the Osteology episode. But enough about us, let's talk about 169 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:47.120 gazing in wonder at otters. 170 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:47.519 Now. 171 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:51.039 Chris also happens to make really gorgeous science art charting 172 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:54.639 the evolution of these mammals in this beautiful, colorful detail. 173 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:58.600 And where in the tree of life are they? Because 174 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:00.519 I feel like I think of an otter and it 175 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:05.879 seems like a cat, an aquatic cat, but also kind 176 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:08.360 of like an upside down dog. What's happening? 177 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:13.519 Yeah, So it's in the order Carnivora, and Carnivora's split 178 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.440 into two different main grooves, the philiforms, which are like 179 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.039 your cats, and then the other group are the caniforms, 180 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:23.519 which are your dogs, bears, pinnipedes, and the mustelodes, which 181 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:26.960 are the raccoons, weasels, skunks, orders, all those guys. So 182 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:34.720 basically in the caniforms it goes dogs, bears, pinnipeds, then skunks, 183 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.960 the red panda, raccoons, and then the mastellids, which includes 184 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:42.399 that really species rich group that includes the otters, the weasels, 185 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:47.240 the wolverine, the martins, the honey badger, the European badger. 186 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:51.240 There's like over sixty species in mastella day. 187 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:53.000 Do you dream about this stuff? Because I know you 188 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:56.759 make art about phylogenetic trees, does your brain is it 189 00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:59.120 always trying to kind of construct visuals of this? 190 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:01.879 Yeah, I mean that's why I love like learning how 191 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:03.799 to make phylogenic trees. That I think it's just such 192 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.960 a cool way to just like showcase the evolutionary history 193 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.639 of like physically the tree of life, and with the 194 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:12.799 carnivorence in general, Like it's such a diverse group and 195 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:16.600 like so many different types of body plans and different 196 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:18.879 sizes and shape, So it's really cool to be able 197 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:21.759 to visualize all that and like how this one species 198 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:25.320 came from this group of species. Or how these two 199 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.639 closely related species are from the same part of tree 200 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:30.360 but then looks so very different. So yeah, that's part 201 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.600 of the fun parts of being an evolutionary biologist. 202 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:35.360 Are you an organized person in general? 203 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:38.799 I pretend to be. It comes and goes. 204 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:42.679 Now, question what is it like to be an autorologist? 205 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:43.879 Do you get to touch them? Do you get to 206 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:45.240 hold them? Do you get to pet their fur? Do 207 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:46.480 you get to touch a hell? Do you get to 208 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.320 hold her hand? Do they give you clams? What is 209 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:49.960 your life like? 210 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:52.960 Oh? I mean, I wish I could do all of that. 211 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:57.120 The closest I've done is touched one. It is honestly 212 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.320 the softest thing, at least a see honor. It's the 213 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:05.080 softest thing I've ever felt. I totally understood or understand 214 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:07.399 why people back in the day really wanted to hunt 215 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:10.200 them just because that pelt like you just want to 216 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:13.000 rub your face on them because it's just so soft, 217 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.080 and I'm sure it's also pretty warm in terms of 218 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:18.279 doing all the other stuff, in terms of like wanting 219 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.279 to hold their hands, I don't think I would ever 220 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.120 want to do that with the wild otter because they 221 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.000 will try to eat your face or like bite your 222 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.240 face if they could. They're pure evil. 223 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:32.399 They are pure evil, says doctor Chris Law, a professional lucronologist. 224 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.000 You knew this was coming, didn't you. Okay, I'm glad 225 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.440 to be jumped right into that because I feel like 226 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:40.240 somehow I became informed a few years ago that otters 227 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:45.720 the cutest things ever, also absolute bastards, evil sexual predators. 228 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:49.159 They will steal your stuff and sell it at a 229 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:52.320 pawnshop like they're the worst. Give us a dark side. 230 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:54.120 How fucked up our otters? 231 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.000 Oh? I mean yeah, so basically everything you said is true. 232 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.960 So probably the worst thing is that they can also 233 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:09.600 be dog killers. So apparently there are a couple incidents 234 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:12.600 where somebody's dog was just like barking at one of 235 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:15.919 the one of these otters along like the dock or something, 236 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:18.399 and I guess that order just got fed up, went 237 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.600 up to it and just apparently dragged it down, and 238 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:26.600 I believe it might have drowned it. But again, this 239 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:29.039 is just through word of mouth, so who knows. 240 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:33.200 Okay, It's September twenty twenty one. Hurricane Ida is ruining lives. 241 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:37.039 The pandemic rages on via the delta variant and squid 242 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:46.000 game premieres. Yes, folks, that was less than a year ago. 243 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:52.559 But meanwhile, in Alaska, otters are terrorizing Anchorage citizens, literally 244 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:56.600 chasing and sinking teeth into a nine year old boy. 245 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:59.159 And this is not the first time. According to one 246 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.799 news source quote, officials are currently investigating whether the incidents 247 00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:06.559 all involve the same group of otters. And it's not 248 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:10.120 just in the last Frontier, it's also in the Sunshine State. 249 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:12.360 Cell phone video of a charging otter. 250 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:14.679 This is a picture of the alleged otter sent to 251 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:16.000 us by Greg Butler. 252 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:18.080 Butler says the otter attacked his. 253 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:21.879 Dog, Chester. Chester was bitten on the nose after an 254 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.159 otter charged through his screened in porch. Two of his 255 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:28.440 human neighbors were bitten on their heels and hands. 256 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.279 This otter comes flying out of the lake, just starts 257 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:32.159 to chase my bike. 258 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.559 Actually just one right after my bike. So, while rare, 259 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:39.600 these incidents are not isolated, and in communities all over 260 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:44.600 the globe, Fearful locals demand of officials, you orter get 261 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:45.440 that outter out of her. 262 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:47.879 I've heard this a couple of times, and this has 263 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.519 happened a couple of times, so it's kind of gnarly. 264 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:53.200 I mean, how big are they? Because I feel like 265 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:56.440 river otters are bigger, right, how big is sea otter like? 266 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:58.159 And also what's the difference between river otter and a 267 00:14:58.159 --> 00:14:58.559 sea otter? 268 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:01.919 Oh so, actually a is much bigger than a North 269 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:06.320 American river otter, but in California they don't get that big. 270 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:08.799 Those are more Alaskan otters, but they are still much 271 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:11.039 bigger than a little river otter. 272 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:13.519 And just to back up a little bit, there are 273 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:17.559 thirteen species of otter globally. The US has two species, 274 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:20.759 the little river otter, about the same weight as a pug, 275 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:23.840 and then the sea otters, which off California can be 276 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:28.080 up to ninety pounds like a rottweiler, although the beefy 277 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:32.039 or Alaskan variety can top one hundred. Libbies think like 278 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:36.360 a Bernese mountain dog floating around gnawing on a crap. Now, 279 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.759 they're also Eurasian otters about twenty pounds docks and size, 280 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:45.200 and some medium size African otters, South American giant river otters, 281 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:47.559 which are somewhere between an American river otter and a 282 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.879 sea otter in size. And then there's the teeny Chihuahua 283 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.039 sized Asian otters, but yes, in the US, I was 284 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.159 surprised that the river otters were smaller and that the 285 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:01.360 sea otters were these hefty, clam eating sea beasts. They're 286 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:03.080 big and they're not cuddly. 287 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:05.960 Definitely can be pretty vicious if you get too close 288 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:06.320 to them. 289 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.240 How did some evolve to hang out in freshwater and 290 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.799 others seawater or does it even matter because it's their 291 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:14.720 breathing air. 292 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:16.159 Right, I'm amazed. 293 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.159 We don't want have fins and gulls. 294 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.879 Yeah, So, actually, all other otters are primarily freshwater. So 295 00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.799 it's the sea otter that's unique. It's that odd ball 296 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.840 that evolved from all the other otters like about eight 297 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:32.080 to ten million years ago, and it went on basically 298 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.480 its own evolutionary trajectory. So everything it does, everything about 299 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:40.240 their physiology is very different compared to other river otters. 300 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.039 And sea otters are primarily just found in the ocean, 301 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:46.720 whereas river otters, especially like North American river otters and 302 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:50.000 Eurasian otters, will actually go into the marine environment as well, 303 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:52.440 so you can find you can be in locations like 304 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.399 in Washington where there will be both river otters and 305 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:56.120 sea otters. 306 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.960 Oh, where are they sleeping? Did they go home at night? 307 00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:01.000 Sea otters? 308 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:04.559 Either one like, do they sleep in the water or 309 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.160 do they have like a cave that they hang out 310 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:07.000 in on shore? 311 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.079 Yeah? So so river otters have dens that they hang out. 312 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:13.880 I've never actually seen one, but yeah, I'm presumably along 313 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:17.160 the shore. But then sea otters actually just float in 314 00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.640 the water, and I'm sure you heard stories of where 315 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.799 they can wrap themselves in some kelp so they don't 316 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.519 float away and they can take a nap that way. 317 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.440 They're relatively small marine mammals. They burn a lot of heat, 318 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:32.319 so they have to sleep a lot to refuel, and 319 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.039 you always see them like just taking this newze to 320 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:38.400 to conserve some energy. 321 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:41.920 Do you think they hold hands in the wild or 322 00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.640 is that just a publicity video firm a zoo? 323 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:50.559 So I don't I actually don't know, because I remember 324 00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:55.160 giving a presentation at this I think conference and I 325 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:57.440 had an image of that, you know, that image of 326 00:17:57.480 --> 00:17:59.799 two sars holding hands that was taken at one of 327 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:05.039 the aquariums. Somebody gave me shit for it without correctly 328 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:08.359 doing that because she said that they don't hold hands 329 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:12.799 in the wild. But then apparently a couple weeks or 330 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.640 months later, there's like some photos of wild hotters holding hands. 331 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:17.440 So I don't know. 332 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:21.759 So they have a good pr team. They're like, listen, 333 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:24.400 TMZ's around the corner. We're going to have to do something. 334 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:29.119 Also shout out to otter paparazzi Drew Wharton, the founder 335 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:32.680 of ceotters dot com, who in twenty sixteen captured the 336 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.079 first photo of otters doing this in the wild, like 337 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.839 a celebrity couple holding hands walking into nobood to eat 338 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.119 a bunch of raw seafood. Also, ceotters dot com has 339 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:46.599 live sea otter camps if you would like to stare 340 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:50.119 at them with like minded people over the internet. What 341 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:52.079 is the autology community? 342 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:52.279 Like? 343 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.279 Are people really focused on conservation? Are they trying to 344 00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:58.279 figure out how to increase populations? 345 00:18:58.279 --> 00:18:58.359 Like? 346 00:18:58.480 --> 00:18:59.960 Is there a big conservation effort around? 347 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.480 Oh yeah, there's a huge effort out all the major aquariums, 348 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:07.519 so like the Monterey Bay Aquarium in California, the Seattle 349 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.079 a Quarium in Washington. I'm sure up in BC and 350 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.160 Alaska also has great efforts, but the one I'm most 351 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.400 familiar with are the ones down in Central Coast California 352 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.200 where the Monorway Bear Quarium U see Standa Cruz, the 353 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:24.240 US Geological Survey, Fish and Wildlife basically all of these 354 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.640 organizations they do all of this great outreach work and 355 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:29.960 also a lot of work with the wild populations to 356 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.839 make sure that the population is doing well, that individuals 357 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.279 are healthy, and that you know, all the possible things 358 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:38.960 that could affect them are looked into. 359 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.000 How is their population like the sea otters, for example, 360 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:45.920 I feel like people are really rallying for the sea otters, 361 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:50.160 like how is their population, Like is it rebounding at all? 362 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.440 Because we just did an episode on urchins and they 363 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:55.160 were like, urchins are everywhere because sea otters are not. 364 00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.799 Yeah, uh so, I guess it's very different depending on 365 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:02.400 what population of sea otters you're talking about. So that 366 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:07.039 helped to urchin. The sea otter system is really describing 367 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:10.559 the Alaskan populations pretty well, so that classic killer will 368 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:14.359 is eating the sea otters, which then increases urchins, which 369 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:18.119 then decreases helpforest. But then in California the system's a 370 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.039 little bit different where the sea otter population is actually 371 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.279 doing relatively stable. So I think there's about maybe three 372 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:29.119 thousand individuals in coastal California. I could be wrong on that. 373 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.200 I have to check my numbers's right, but basically the 374 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:36.079 idea is that they are kind of constrained between like 375 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:40.119 point consumption down south and Half Moon Bay up north. 376 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.319 And the reason why they can't expand because they're being 377 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.799 attacked by sharks up north, and I guess fishermen are 378 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:49.359 pushing them back up from the south, so they can't 379 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:51.960 really expand, and that why there's they're more like this 380 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:55.880 carrying capacity where they're running out of food and that 381 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.319 auto population can't really increase because of that. 382 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.119 So in California, they're stuck between a net and a 383 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:05.079 shark place. And sea otters have been protected since the 384 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:10.200 nineteen eleven International fur Seal Treaty after colonization of North 385 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.119 America led to a dangerous decline. And I looked into 386 00:21:13.160 --> 00:21:16.359 it and yep, there's about three thousand sea otters off 387 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:19.759 the coast of the Pacific in California, and then ninety 388 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:22.480 percent of the world sea otters are off the coast 389 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.400 of Alaska. There's about twenty five thousand of them there. Now, 390 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.920 what about the river otters. It's estimated about one hundred 391 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.279 thousand of North American river otters exist in the US 392 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:36.319 and Canada. According to the banger of a paper, river 393 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:40.240 otter status management and distribution in the United States evidence 394 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:44.640 of large scale population increase and range expansion. So that's good. 395 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:49.160 And of the world's thirteen species, eight are threatened, including 396 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.640 the Asian small clawed otter and the smooth coated otter, 397 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.480 and one called the hairy nosed otter, which sounds cute 398 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.359 but it might be ferocious. All of these otters are like, 399 00:21:59.519 --> 00:22:02.000 we got a more ods. Also, I'm gonna warn you 400 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:06.400 right now this next part contains scenarios and language that 401 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.400