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See website for details. 23 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:18.359 Loop HOADI, you are now listening to True Murder, The 24 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.879 most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors 25 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:28.280 that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. 26 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:33.000 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 27 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:37.200 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 28 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:40.680 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 29 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:53.000 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 30 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:56.159 program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime 31 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:59.599 History and the authors that have written about them. On 32 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:03.400 the more of April eighth, two thousand and six, residents 33 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:06.519 of the hamlet of Shedden, Ontario woke up to the 34 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.280 news that the bloodied bodies of eight bikers from the 35 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:13.719 Bandido's motorcycle gang had been found dead on a local farm. 36 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.719 The massacre made headlines around the world, and the shocking 37 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:21.120 news brought a grim light to an otherwise quiet corner 38 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:26.039 of the province. Six Bandidos bikers would eventually be convicted 39 00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:29.680 of the first degree murder of their biker brothers. Like 40 00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:33.759 other outlaw bikers, Vandidos portrayed themselves as motorcycle enthusiasts who 41 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:37.360 are systematically misunderstood and abused by the police. As well 42 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:40.240 as feared by the public. We now know that Vandidos 43 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:44.439 were anything but simple motorcycle enthusiasts. However, unlike such biker 44 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:48.319 gangs as the Hell's Angels, who run sophisticated operations, the 45 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:53.199 Bandidos were highly disorganized, prone to petty infighting, and even 46 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:56.759 engaged in sabotaging fellow members. This is the story of 47 00:02:56.759 --> 00:03:01.479 how the Vandidos self destructed over one very night. As 48 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:05.000 gripping as any crime novel, The Bandido Massacre takes us 49 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:10.039 inside a crumbling brotherhood bent on betrayal and self obliteration. 50 00:03:11.120 --> 00:03:13.520 The book that we were featured this evening is The 51 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:18.680 Bandido Massacre with my special guest, journalist and author Peter Edwards. 52 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:21.879 Thank you for agreeing to this interview and welcome to 53 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:23.800 True Murder. Peter Edwards. 54 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:26.039 It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. 55 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.039 Thank you very much, Peter. This is a very, very 56 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:34.240 incredible story, and I think our audience primarily we have 57 00:03:34.240 --> 00:03:37.719 a lot of people in America and abroad. So what 58 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:39.719 I'll get you to do a little bit is maybe 59 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.199 explain this because we see for those reading the book, 60 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:48.919 you'll hear Sheddon Ontario, you'll hear Iona Station. But for 61 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:52.199 most people, we know the greater Toronto area no matter 62 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:54.680 where they are in the world. So tell us where 63 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:58.840 the proximity where this all occurs. We're talking about London, Ontario, 64 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.080 we're talking about shed and we're talking about Keswick, but 65 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:06.080 we're talking about Toronto. Take us at least to the 66 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:09.479 geography of where some of these things occur before we 67 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:11.000 get too far into the story. 68 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:15.319 Really killing took place with about midway between Toronto and Detroit, 69 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:18.639 right on the or just off Highway four oh one, 70 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:24.079 so that's knada's busiest highway. The Toronto chapter of the 71 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.720 Bandidos was the one involved in the massacre and they 72 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.600 one of their members lived in the tiny place called 73 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.120 Iona Station, which only hit one hundred people. And that's 74 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:36.319 about midway Toronto and Detroit. 75 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:38.600 Right now. 76 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.079 We pick place actually, and it hit a farm there, 77 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:43.399 like a sort of a firm that was off the 78 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.720 highway but secluded enough that things could be done there 79 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:48.000 that other people couldn't see. 80 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:53.079 Right now, Well, we're talking about that. This mass murder 81 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.639 occurred on April eighth, two thousand and six. But for 82 00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:01.000 our audience, take us back. We really do do a 83 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:06.160 exhaustive examination of biker culture in Canada for those that 84 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:09.199 don't know really the hierarchy, tell us a little bit 85 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:13.439 about the background of the Hell's Angels and the Bandidos 86 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.199 where they sort of originate from, and tell us just 87 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.360 a little bit about the history of the Canadian chapter 88 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:22.759 the Canaian chapters of those bike gangs, especially the Bandidos, 89 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:25.399 that it is very important to this story. 90 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:30.519 The Hell's Angels had been locked into a street war 91 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.079 with a group called the Rock Machine in Montreal and 92 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:36.959 that had gone on for about six years and there 93 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:38.959 had been almost two hundred people killed in that so 94 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:42.639 it was genuinely a war, you know, people being shot, 95 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:48.920 blown up, disappearing. The Hell's Angels were winning. The Rock 96 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.160 Machine was basically a group of drug dealers that kind 97 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:55.560 of joined together to form a gang to try and 98 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:58.800 hold off the Hell's Angels. When they saw they were losing, 99 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:03.439 they reached out to the Bandidos, who are a well respected, 100 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:08.240 really internationally known biker club based in mostly in Texas. 101 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:11.120 That's where they got their start. They reached out to 102 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:15.160 Texas for support and what they did was folded into 103 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:17.240 the Bandidos and they hoped that that would hold off 104 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:21.279 the Hell's Angels. The Hell's Angels kept pounding on them, 105 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:27.000 and around the time of the massacre, the Bandidos had 106 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:31.040 been driven out of Quebec and the Ontario Ones. The 107 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:36.560 Ontario Bandidos were basically rose to the top because everybody 108 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:39.920 else was either dead or in prison. So that was 109 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.879 the group that on paper they looked good, but they 110 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.319 weren't really tested and they weren't really that strong. 111 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:48.759 Now to set up this story as well, that's for 112 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:51.360 the people that'll know that the Bandidos are the number 113 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:54.600 two outlaw biker gang in the world, and of course 114 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:57.560 the Hell's Angels are the number one. Is that correct? 115 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:01.839 Yeah, definitely, And the Outlaws are always there, Like the 116 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.800 Outlaws are have never been the top, but they've never 117 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:08.720 been gone, so they're they're kind of the survivor group. 118 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.160 The Hell's Angels are a lot of people think that 119 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:13.720 that's what everybody aspires to be. And then the Bandidos 120 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:18.519 were started up from Vietnam War veterans. They they got 121 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:20.759 going in the sixties. The Hell's Angels roots go back 122 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:23.079 to the Second World War and veterans coming back from that. 123 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:28.959 Right now, now, what was the status of the Bandidos 124 00:07:29.040 --> 00:07:31.839 in two thousand and six, and say even two thousand 125 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:35.560 and five, in that you know, not that many years ago. 126 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:39.319 What was their status in terms of full member chapters 127 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:43.920 in Canada and where where were the only chapters in Canada? 128 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.000 Tell us about that, and tell us what the status 129 00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:51.120 was of this chapter in Winnipeg. 130 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:54.639 And they had literally been kicked out at Quebec like 131 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:57.680 the Hell's Angels, agreed to stop pounding on them if 132 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.959 they would fold in kubbet and so. And it was 133 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:04.839 interesting because the deal was applied to prison as well 134 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:07.519 as on the streets. And so by them being driven 135 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:09.959 out of Quebec, all of a sudden, Ontario became important. 136 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:14.680 But Ontario altogether had maybe three dozen members, not that many. 137 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:20.160 Manitoba was trying to trying to get going. There's a 138 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.680 lot of violence in Manitoba, but it's not that organized, 139 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.639 and the Bandidos there saw an opening to pull things 140 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:27.959 together and tighten it up a bit. 141 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:29.879 Okay. 142 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:32.159 I mean at the same time that Bandidos in Manitoba 143 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:35.480 weren't they weren't really recognized, and they were looking to 144 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:38.759 Ontario for guidance and Ontario just didn't have the smarts 145 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:39.440 to give it to them. 146 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.360 Now, there's there's a little more background to this as 147 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:46.000 well that we find out later, but we might as 148 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:48.960 well say that that they're established that there was not 149 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.519 there was conflict between the Winnipeg you call it a 150 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:56.360 probationary chapter, and then the Toronto chapter is full members. 151 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:59.639 If I'm not getting this incorrect, now, there was something 152 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:04.279 about dues owed like again, we've already set up this 153 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:06.480 a little bit in the synopsis that this is about 154 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:10.879 petty in fighting. So tell us what the relationship was 155 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:15.039 between the Winnipeg Probationary Chapter and Toronto and some of 156 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:17.399 the things that they may have had an issue before 157 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:21.320 we get to a couple of conversations and when the 158 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:25.240 ball starts rolling in this very very deadly direction. 159 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:29.720 Now, Winnipeg, the Manitoba chapter, they were supposed to be 160 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:33.519 deferential to Toronto. They were supposed to send them dues 161 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:36.840 for each member who got in. They were supposed to 162 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:39.639 be kicking in money wise, and they just weren't really, 163 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:41.679 and they weren't. They weren't even being honest. At the 164 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:44.000 same time, they were trying to do an end run 165 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:47.200 around Toronto and go directly to Texas. They're trying to 166 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:51.879 go from being a probationary chapter to being the top 167 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:54.639 chapter in the country. And they had a big kind 168 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:59.039 of Napoleonic ideas of experiding, and they just thought they'd 169 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:02.080 leave Toronto behind right now. 170 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:07.240 The Texas chapter, what was there? What was their interest 171 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.600 in Canada and what would? What would? What did they 172 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:13.279 have to say about the situation between Winnipeg and Toronto? 173 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.320 What was their take on the situation? 174 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:20.440 Uh, the Texans were frustrated with all of them, really, 175 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:22.879 I mean the after nine to eleven, it became a 176 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.559 lot tougher to cross the border. It became difficult to 177 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:29.759 come up to somewhere where there was expansion and actually 178 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.320 see what was going on, meet the members. People with 179 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.360 criminal records, we had a lot of trouble crossing the 180 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:38.919 border either way. That meant that it was mostly internet 181 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:41.960 contact and people could just play stupid and not return emails. 182 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:43.960 It's it's sort of bizarre, but the Internet played a 183 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.919 big role in this in Texas. Was breat guys. A 184 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:50.840 lot of them had jobs in the oil industry, a 185 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:54.559 lot of them were part of something that had grown 186 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:57.159 out of a you know, real military basis. So these 187 00:10:57.159 --> 00:10:59.679 are people who knew how to take orders, who knew discipline, 188 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:03.519 he knew to actually do things, and he generally came 189 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:07.720 to see the Canadians as drug using the idiots for 190 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:08.759 lack of a better word. 191 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:14.080 Now, tell us about the first off, I guess you 192 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:18.759 can tell us about the crew, the No Surrender Crew, 193 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:24.600 and tell us just introduce the characters, because that's what 194 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.120 this is all about, is these characters as opposed to 195 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:30.559 another group of characters. So tell us about the No 196 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:34.559 Surrender Crew, who was involved, and one by one, give 197 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:38.840 us a little bit of background on these people. These men. 198 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:44.200 The one that is kind of worthy of the most attention, 199 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:46.720 although you know, probably worthy of well, it's worthy of 200 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.919 the least respect. At the same time as is Wayne Kellestine. 201 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:54.559 And he was in his late fifties, a long time 202 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:56.960 outlaw biker. But none of the big clubs wanted him. 203 00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:59.000 The Outlaws had taken a look at him, they didn't 204 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:01.799 want to be near him. The Hills Angels had had 205 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:04.240 tried to kill him. There's a feeling among some Hell's 206 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:07.480 Angels that some people are too crazy to be dealt with, 207 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.320 and that they that you just get rid of them. 208 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:14.559 And so he was on in that category. He wore 209 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.720 a lightning bolt on his vest, which was his way 210 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:19.840 of saying that he had he had killed and gotten 211 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:24.200 away with it. The feeling was that he had, excuse me, 212 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:27.000 killed someone who had killed a police officer, and that 213 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.360 that had given him a pass, that he was kind 214 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:32.320 of on the he had an inside track to some 215 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.919 of the police through through murder that they were giving 216 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:40.919 him a bit of a wide berth. And he's someone 217 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:48.759 very very unstable drug use or Nazi lover, did really 218 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:51.360 bizarre things that even in the biker world were considered 219 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:53.759 too too strange. 220 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:54.159 Uh. 221 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:59.120 He saw himself as very very heroic. So he and 222 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:02.639 and a huge gun collector, tons of weapons, and he 223 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.759 didn't take care of his guns, but he had weapons 224 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:07.720 all over the place, hidden all through his house. He 225 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:11.679 had been hidden behind cabinets, in the eaves, troughs, just 226 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:16.360 just sort of everywhere. Dangerous guy. There's another one, Jamie Flans. 227 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.440 He was not a full member. He was a nod 228 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:23.480 fit for the bikers because he was Jewish, and to 229 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:25.519 be Jewish and trying to get into a chapter with 230 00:13:25.639 --> 00:13:28.960 a Nazi lover is pretty strange. But I think he 231 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:30.399 was just playing it. I think it's more of a 232 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:34.440 fashion thing for him. There's another guy, George Justin. He 233 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.519 a tow truck driver, very popular. He was dying cancer 234 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:41.080 and didn't want to be alone, and he wasn't nothing 235 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:44.840 famim about the guy. Another guy George Caracas. He was 236 00:13:44.879 --> 00:13:47.879 a nice Greek immigrant kid who was more of a 237 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:51.759 rugby player than a biker, and he honestly thought that 238 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:56.159 by being clean he could clean up the entire club. 239 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:00.320 He was briefly Canadian president. And here's a rebel, but 240 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:03.120 the Texans liked him because he actually was solid. There's 241 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.360 a guy, John Boxer mushedri Boxer's just his nickname. He 242 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:12.759 was a factory worker, a very solid guy, had been 243 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:15.480 a good boxer, not a great boxer, but a good boxer, 244 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.039 a ton of heart, not a thinker, but a real 245 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.600 heart type of person. And he was very vulnerable because 246 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:24.759 if he thought that someone was his brother, he do 247 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.840 anything for them, and so Kelstine could manipulate him. There's 248 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.399 one guy on Louis Riposo. He was a very very 249 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:35.000 tough guy. He was a survivor of the Quebec biker 250 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.639 Wars and had done jail time. Was bitter because nobody 251 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.360 visited him when he was in jail. Another guy, Frank 252 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:47.840 Salerno was he looked imposing. There was a very very 253 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:52.080 needy guy. He had a drug addiction, a gambling addiction. 254 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:55.639 He used to actually phone in the Toronto Sun newspaper 255 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:59.240 and asked for sports scores late at night, you know, 256 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.960 in the sort of three internet time, because he wanted to, 257 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:06.200 you know, keep up on his bets. Likable, but kind 258 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:10.120 of a needy sort of guy. There's another guy, Paul Sinoptly. 259 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:12.600 He weighed somewhere between four and five hundred pounds, and 260 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:15.480 one of his friends said that he was basically in 261 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.120 the club because he wanted women and how else was 262 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:21.480 he going to get them. He wasn't really that active 263 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:25.320 doing anything, but kind of a lonely sort of guy. 264 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:31.480 Another guy, Michael Trotta, he was he wanted out of 265 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.039 the club. A lot of these guys actually wanted out 266 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:36.200 of the club. I think he just needed a title, 267 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:38.080 he needed to be part of something, and he wasn't 268 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.919 that active doing anything. He'd barely gotten into the club 269 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.399 when he got killed, and he wanted out. So this 270 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:48.279 wasn't someone who who you'd really fear, and that the 271 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:52.600 ones I've described that's the Toronto chapter. You want the 272 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.039 Winnipeg ones as well. Well. 273 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.279 Yeah, and just one thing too as well, when you 274 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:03.159 talk about Kelestine too, because it's not necessarily written in 275 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:06.519 stone that this happened. But Jamie Flans, like you say, 276 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.240 is Jewish, which is kind of unusual. They liked him 277 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:11.519 because he had money and he could they could borrow 278 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:12.879 money from him, he said, so. 279 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:15.799 Yeah, and you also hit a nice townhouse that people 280 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:16.440 could use. 281 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:21.519 For parties exactly, and he looked like a biker. There 282 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:25.960 you go. The thing is and the thing is that 283 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:28.720 what you mentioned about Kelstein too is part of this 284 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:31.039 a little bit you figure is that not only is 285 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:35.600 he you know, a neo Nazi or you know, Nazi 286 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.519 supporter and has some interest in that, but he's also 287 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.480 an anti semi too, so you say that it's a 288 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:42.759 little bit in the mix as well. 289 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:46.840 Yeah, and he just he basically disliked anyone who wasn't him. 290 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:51.279 He there was one Christmas party where he threatened to 291 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:54.519 shoot a disc jockey for playing playing black music. And 292 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:56.600 it was odd because the wives wanted to dance and 293 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:58.519 they loved the stuff is being played. And then he 294 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:01.519 told the guy even more Leonard skinnerd or you can 295 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:03.159 have a bullet in you and the kind of wreck 296 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:06.440 the night, like the Wise couldn't dance to the sort 297 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.440 of Southern rock that he wanted to. But you know 298 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.640 that that was him. He crashed the Gay Pride parade, 299 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.200 like he actually crashed it. We're leaving the Nazi flags 300 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.519 and you know who knows what's cooking in his mind 301 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.000 that he feels the need to do that. Yeah, he's 302 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.279 like a very angry guy. He'd sing the German national anthem, 303 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.039 you know, sort of burst out when he stoned and 304 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:29.119 sing it. On the other hand, he could be kind 305 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.759 of charming, like when he was dried out, he'd go 306 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:34.720 to bake sales and buy a whole bunch of pies 307 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:36.519 from old woman in the area, and they'd all think 308 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:37.640 he was great for a little while. 309 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.240 Oh wow, Oh there's a balance, isn't there. Wat some 310 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:46.319 pie wats some pies there. You go that that counters everything. 311 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.720 What I was going to say too, is that we've 312 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:53.640 got to make sure that the audience really understands though, too, 313 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:57.559 that this guy was rejected by biker gangs like these 314 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.519 these people want to belong to an our organization and 315 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.240 not all of them are possessing of a certain charm. 316 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:06.680 But we're talking about Kalestein being fifty eight or fifty 317 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:10.079 nine years old at this time. So this is this 318 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:14.079 plays into I think what happens of course, and of 319 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.000 course he's the you know, the major character in it. 320 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:19.960 So maybe definitely they were expanding into Ontario and they 321 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:22.759 still didn't want them, like they were taking they sort 322 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:25.839 of through the through the doors open in two thousand. 323 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.119 It's like when the two clubs were scrambling to get 324 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:32.799 control of Ontario, they were taking all sorts of untested people, 325 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:34.640 and they still wouldn't take this guy. He'd been around 326 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:38.039 for a quarter century. I mean, he was He'd be 327 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.480 like the NHL goes from thirty two one hundred teams 328 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.559 and you still don't get a tryout, you know. Yeah, 329 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:44.720 it's kind of parveen Stone where you are right now. 330 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.160 Yeah, And I think what was we'll you know, you'll 331 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:49.960 be able to explain to the audience a little bit later. 332 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.720 That plays into this whole deadly scenario later. Now, now 333 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:59.400 weeks before the before the two thousand and six massacre, 334 00:18:59.599 --> 00:19:06.000 Here weeks before the Bendido's national secretary Treasurer Lewis manny Roposo, 335 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:10.400 as we mentioned, was upset with the Probationary Chapter in Winnipeg. 336 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.279 He said he wanted contact at least once a week. 337 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:19.119 And then this we're talking about the emails proposal was 338 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:24.640 contact was contacting Michael Sandham, who was president of the 339 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:29.880 Probationary Chapter. And Sandham tell us what he said in 340 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:34.279 reply to because I think this is well, well, obviously 341 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:36.799 this is very important, tell us what he said in 342 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:43.160 response to this, you know, this this request for contact. 343 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:47.000 What did Sandal He basically bloom off like he patronized him. 344 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.799 Then he bloom off and he treated him like an idiot. 345 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.160 I mean, the odd the odd thing about Sandem was 346 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.720 that he he had been in the military, he actually 347 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:01.160 had been a police officer, and he he thought that 348 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:04.160 he somehow was a bit better. 349 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:04.559 You know. 350 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:06.319 The weird thing is that in this culture that makes 351 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:08.200 you a lot worse, not the military part, but the 352 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.759 police part. And so if they had done their due diligence, 353 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:13.559 if they had checked this guy out, then he never 354 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.319 would have gotten them within ten miles of a clubhouse. 355 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:19.720 But because they had been sort of drunken stoned when 356 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:22.799 his name came up, they just took him in. He 357 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.720 was a very delusional guy who pretended he had black 358 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.240 belts in martial arts that some of them that didn't 359 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:31.960 even exist, and he invented this martial art and made 360 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.759 himself the grand master. So he was a bit like 361 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:39.160 George Costanza on Seinfeld, you know, just this guy totally 362 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:42.359 into his own fantasy about himself. But he talked down 363 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.480 to Riposo. And Roposo was a real biker. I mean, 364 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:49.319 Roposo had done some serious time in Quebec, Reposa had 365 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.960 been part of the biker wars. Reposo wasn't someone you 366 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.359 kidded around with. He wasn't the biggest one physically, but 367 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:56.839 he was the guy who actually would put a ball 368 00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:01.119 within you and feel good about it. And so I'm 369 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:03.720 reposed of knew he's being talked down to, and I 370 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:05.440 think he got a whiff that this guy was an 371 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:07.079 idiot on the other end of it, and that that 372 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:07.720 bothered him. 373 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:11.000 Well you say that he said, he listened. He says, 374 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.480 I'm not available, and he said stop calling the brothers, 375 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:17.000 homes and families like that's on the end of don't 376 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:18.799 don't even bother me, don't bug me. 377 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:22.160 Yeah, and this is just sort of on the scheme 378 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:24.200 of things. You got someone who's a national officer, the 379 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:26.400 other one who's not really even a full member I 380 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.559 mean Winnipeg. Yeah, sort of in their world didn't even exist. 381 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.000 They were just you know, maybe they'd get in, maybe 382 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:34.960 they wouldn't then. Yet this guy is talking down to 383 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:38.359 a National executive member who who had done serious day 384 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:41.559 all time, and you just don't do that now. 385 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:49.200 Two days before this killing, Kellestine and and and Cameron 386 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:54.359 acorn a Bandito have a talk and this is and 387 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:59.680 Cameron is is incarcerated and so what's the conversation about? 388 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.400 Tell us what that conversation sounded like, and what was 389 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:03.839 it about. 390 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.000 It's almost like something the other Shakespeare and some of that. 391 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.079 I've got a website down Bendi with Lucky Land slots. 392 00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:12.480 You can get lucky just about anywhere. 393 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:14.839 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. 394 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:16.920 Has anyone seen the bride and groom? 395 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:19.079 Sorry, sorry, we're here. 396 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.200 We were getting lucky in the limo when we lost 397 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.799 track of time. 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