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Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peagin Yona Show.
Thomas is here and I think we're going to close
out to talk about sir Oswald Mosley, aren't.
Speaker 2: We Yeah, we can't continue for one more episode to
discuss the British Free Corps. If you want, I'm going
I'll discuss some of it today, but it's up to
you in the subs. Yeah, we'll play it by your
that's fine. The so that's imperative to understand is a
lot of what happened to Oswald Mosley, you know. And
he was interned under Defense Regulation eighteen B, which allowed
for the internment of anybody who was actively sympathizing with
enemy states during wartime. This was so loosely defined it
could entail pretty much anything, including mere statements. And as
Lady Diana Mosley pointed out, you know, Moseley scrupulously obey
aid the law. And there was precedent for this in
terms of his personal as well as potical conduct. When
the police ordered him to do something, he refused to
provide information on his comrades or members of the BUF
or anything like that. But if they ordered him to disperse,
he did it, you know. And if he was threatened
with a charge of a fraid, he'd stand his people down,
you know. And there was a substantial in relative terms
number of BUF members, you know, who were in the
British Army or with the police, and he told them,
don't disobey your superiors, don't undermine the chain of command,
Don't ever do that. You know, He's like, try and
try and encourage your fellow you know, white Christian in
Scottish and Welsh and sympathetic Irish men and women to
see our point of view. But this idea that he
was some dangerous revolutionary or that he was trying to
subvert the crown by way of espionage, that's laughable. Now.
There was a weird precedent though, as the kind of
what gave rise this paranoia. Like don't get me wrong,
the Churchill government and particularly Cretans like Van Sattart, they
wanted to harm mostly for personal reasons as well as
political ones. But there was odd intrigues that you know,
led to Chamberlain adopting some very traconian policies, including the
Treason Act, which made it very very easy to convict
people of treason and under the common law as well
as under the previous Act defining Treason in the United Kingdom,
which dated to the sixteen nineties. Not coincidentally, there had
to be two witnesses accusing the defendant of the acts
alleged in the indictment, and somebody could only be charged
with treason by indictment, and the discreet and specific acts
had to be witnessed the trees and act. Get did
it away with all of this, Okay, you could be
convicted by the same standard of evidence as any other felony.
And it was a mandatory death penalty. There's only one penalty,
and it was death, which is quite completely insane. Okay.
But why this came about? Then? This is important. I'm
not I don't want to derail us. But in the
World War two series, we talked about how the New Dealers,
and specifically Roosevelt he quite literally sent Joe Kennedy away
to the UK. He did it for a couple of reasons.
The American Establishment and the Bridge didn't particularly like each other.
That this was not some like close cozy relationship at all.
And Roosevelt didn't was about didn't like Church all, he
had contempt for him. Rosebout didn't like Chamberlain. He thought
he was an a feat snob and a jerk. You know.
The US government didn't like the Crown, you know, so
sending America first Irish Joe Kennedy over there. They did
two things. It subtly antagonized the British and prevented some
kind of sympathetic ear being offered to them from the
Department of State. It got rid of Joe Kennedy, who
was a thorn in the side of the New Dealers.
But it also, you know, one of the things that
people like Van Sattard, in typical kind of conspiratorial British fashion,
one of the things they used the presidence of people
like Kennedy therefore, is they wanted to see like who
he was making contact with, Like they wanted to see
who in like a wider cultural milu between the UK
and America was stoking exis sympathy. And this this, this
led to a very very strange case. Let me just
call my aline real quick. I want to see what
I forget me. It was the case of uh, it
was the Kent affair, Okay, And this is relevant to
some of the other things we talk about, like Tyler
Gatewood Kent. He was a legacy diplomat, like he'd been
born in Manchuria and his father was the consul there,
the US consul. Okay, he developed a fluency in Russian
because he was something of a polymath, okay, and he
literally just like studied Russian, you know. He went to
the University of Madrid for a time through his father's connections,
you know. Then he joined the State Department. He was
the first American ambassador to the Soviet Union under William Bullet.
But then weird stuff started happening. On the eve of
the war in nineteen thirty nine, some of his colleagues
began to suspect that he was a Soviet sympathizer, and
they went as far as suspecting that he was spying
for the Soviet Union, and he had knowledge of cipher
pads and things, you know, Like a lot of State
Department officials, especially in those days, he was basically an
intelligence man. They were under like light diplomatic cover. But
basically what some of his colleagues were sympathetic to say
the leads to the Roosevelt New Deal program We're saying,
was look, just so you know, he's a Soviet agent.
And oss later insisted on the same thing. The British
were convinced he was a fascist. And this is where
this gets interesting, because he got removed from his posting
in the Soviet Union. But obviously Roosevelt was cultivating deep
interdependence with the Soviets, even amiss the non aggression picked.
So when Kent arrived in London, where he got sent,
you know, in part because so his superiors could keep
an eye on him when he got When he got there,
he immediately made contact with a guy named Ludwig Matthias,
and highest was almost certainly an advert agent, and he
was under investigation by Special branch Okay, then Kent was
seen hanging around, uh, this kind of haunt for in
South Kensington that Russians were known to frequents, you know,
both you know, emigrays from the White Army, you know,
who fought the Communists and uh like died in the
old Soviet types. And he met this Russian woman kind
of like uh, lesser society type woman who'd been married
to this uh, this rich British merchant, and he started
having an affair with her, you know, and they started
going back and forth between the UK and the Soviet Union.
Now through uh, through a lady named Anna Volkov, who
was another kind of society person, he met Archibald Ramsey.
Now Ramsey had been an associate of Oswald Mosley and
he founded what was called the Right Club. He defected
from the Conservative Party and then from the Scottish Unions
that founded the Right Club. And the Right Club was
basically like an anti Jewish pack, okay, and it had
his ability to kind of attract like society people, you know.
And this made this made Special Branch really upset, and
I mean Chamberlain really upset. And when Churchill ascended to
the Prime ministership, he basically resigned to destroy it. And
this is another thing that regulation at and B was
tailored the Crush. But it's an interesting aside. It begs
the question like what was Kent's deal? And Kent he
was ultimately brought up on charges for his associations with
people engaged with the Right Club, as well as him
acting as an intermediary between various pro axis elements. And
he probably knew Lord haha, William Joyce personally. Yeah, he
definitely delivered coded cipher messages to him, okay. And we'll
get into like who Joyce was in a minute, but
m I five. Essentially, they approached Joe Kennedy in May
nineteen forty and said, look, if you don't waive Kent's
diplomatic immunity. We're gonna assume you're in cahoots with him,
and we're gonna charge you too. This was like the
implied threat. Okay, So two days later Kent's home got
rated by I five and they found almost two thousand
official documents as well as messages between Churchill and Special Branch,
which begged the question how the hell did he get
hold of that kind of data. But they also found
he made copies to the code room at the US Embassy.
Him and Anna Volkov were both charged with violating the
Official Secrets Act. And he's lucky because he probably could
have been executed despite being a foreign national, had like
the treeson ad come down and been tested and well,
obviously he couldn't have been tried for treason. It would
have set a precedent of killing people who were viewed
as acts as agents and had been insinuated into sensitive roles.
He was tried at Old Bailey in a secret trial.
No witnesses were permitted. The only winness is permitted were
from mi I five so that they could document like
what exactly he had and what he knew m I
five and m I six were there, but uh Ramsey
Archibald Ramsey actually testified against him, which was grimy. But
Ramsey's supporters or apologies in the present day would suggest
that he was convinced that the man was a Communist,
which doesn't make a difference to me, because like, you
don't rant people out and and and re lie on them.
I don't care what they are. You know, if there's
something a horrible person, I'm like a child molestor Okay,
deal with them extra judicially and give him some justice.
You know, you don't testify on people. Okay. So Ramsey
kind of showed his true colors as a coward. But
that's that's actually a credit to Mosley. Is the reason
why he didn't associate with people like the Right Club.
But he was sentenced to seven years. He was eventually
released after as the war was coming to a close. Okay.
He immediately left the UK upon release, which was understandable.
He went down to Texas nearly fifties and he married
this like wealthy Airaiss down there and he immediately joined
this organization that was probably an undercover like clan outfit,
like KKK outfit, and he started publishing this pro segregation
like a tabloid, and he started railing against Kennedy, saying
Kennedy as a communist. Now, the FBI investigated him as
being a KGBS set, but they could never show up
enough of a case to charge him formally. They just
made his like miserable and they couldn't conclusively figure out
what his angle was. I mean, to me, it's pretty
clear he was like a Francis Yackey type, you know.
And he started making Soviet contacts after the after the
No Aggression Pact was signed, and then he saw the
writing on the wall and realized, I'm gonna do everything
I can to kind of swing the strategic balance and
favor of the Soviets because they're definitely gonna win this war,
and I want to do everything I can to undermine
the Anglo American Zionist alliance. That's very clear to me, okay,
But it makes sense that the FBI and m I
five couldn't figure this out. Okay, But Kent really really
upset the whole incident, really really upset British intelligence, and
its specifically upset the focus, Okay. And as it became
clear that war was inevitable between uh the access in
the UK because uh, Chamberlain had been totally compromised, in
part by his own you know, by checkmating himself with
the War Guarantee, to the to the Polish hunt, but
also because the focus and and and the War Party
was just gaining too much power. I mean, it should
have been clear that Chamberlain's days were numbered anyway. And
and politically he was he was, he was dying, but offense,
especially in a system like the UK's, in a parliamentary system,
the prime Minister he developed is insinuated, is insulated by
something of an echo chamber, and the information he's privy
to is na truly insinuated into what the opposition is thinking.
It's not like America. Okay, there's this blind spots kind
of built into the executive. But as uh as it
became clear that the we're not going to come to
terms no matter what, Henry Williamson approached Mosley. And Williamson
wasn't a fascist, but he was very much like enamored
with Teutonic stuff then with Germany, and he had, you know,
he had kind of a long view of what was underway.
And he said, quote if I could see Hitler, you know,
a fellow common soldier of nineteen fourteen. You know, I
might not be able to give him the German common
soldier the enmity he so desired from England, you know,
to be fair. In those days, like people weren't really
privy to a broad conceptual horizon in terms of policy
as it was developing. I mean, Williamson was like a
society type and a novelist. He probably was naive, but
you know, it wasn't clear that the fix was in.
No matter what, the crown was going to war, that
was the whole point. But he sought out Moseley. He
sent him a letter and then when Mosey like asking
if Moseley could arrange somehow, Willing started to get an
audience with Hitler, which was very naive because like despite
I mean, Hitler very was very fond of the Midford sisters,
and Gebels in particular respected Moseley himself, like as a
man and also like as a political soldier. But this
idea you could just get an audience with the fear
that's that's somewhat ridiculous. But Williamson went to visit Moseley
on August twenty sixth, you know, days before nineteen thirty nine,
you know, days before the onset of war, and Moseley
was totally resigned, and it's like, look, I read your letter.
I understand you're upset. I sympathized, but this is pointless
and we're probably all going to be in turned if
we keep doing what we're doing. But I'm gonna see
this through. And so Williamson left like thinking Moseley was
some kind of like maniac, but of course he was
absolutely correct. You know what, really what really kind of
changed things from you know, rumblings by people like Van
Sittart and the War Party talking about you know, like
locking up traders and whatever it was. When the Germans
overran the Low countries, and you know, it became clear
that you know, this this entire enterprise of drawing Germany
into some attrition war on the Belgian frontier and then
either humiliating them on the battlefield or trying to force
terms that they would undoubtedly find uncomfortable, whereby you know,
the Wehrmacht would overthrow Hitler or whatever these I six
types were thinking. I mean, it became clear that that
was like a ridiculous fantasy. So as the battlefield situation
turned for the worst, as the British Expeditionary Force or
the alt Expeditionary Force was wing in terror at Dunkirk,
the establishment became obsessed with this idea of we're gonna
be subverted from within, and there's some fifth column leaking
information to Berlin and Mosley and his supporters are agents
to the ab there, which is laughable, especially considered the
ad there was like the fifth column in Germany. But
the degree to which people like Vance at Tart believed
this or not, and whether they believed some like the
Lion assault by the Wehrmacht and the kriegs Marine was
going to happen, it's hard to say. I mean, to me,
that seems incredible anybody would believe that. But Hitler did
you know he assigned von Runstett to actually, in fact
engineer and operational program for Sea Lion, going as far
as the outfit uh civilian barges with literal aircraft engines
to pilot them across the English Channel, having Frankenstein them
into landing craft. I mean, Hitler did that as a
strategic ruse, you know, for the not to frighten the British,
but you know, to essentially spoof like Stalin's intelligence apparatus.
And I mean Hitler wasn't a fool, you know, in
terms of his ability to empathize with others and their
likely perceptions. But it's one thing to con vince the
Soviet Union of something. It's another thing to convince the
British now, because the Soviets are dumb and the British
are smart. But this cultural and linguistic barriers there, and
there was this physical distance in those days where you
couldn't have like an electric eye on something eight hundred
miles west. So this was kind of a perfect storm
of conditions whereby the War Party could begin treating Moseley
and anybody else they decided was insufficiently enthusiastic about the
war effort, as you know, traders and enemies of the state.
And this was exacerbated by the fact that Edward the eighth,
the former King, Edward the eighth, he'd only reigned from
January twentieth, nineteen thirty six until December of the year
when he abdicated to Mary Wallace Simpson, you know, the
American divorce, a kind of flapper party girl, which was
a woman. She's like only thirties. But you know, Edward
the eighth was a known anti war partisan, and Van
Sittart began insisting that, you know, obviously we can't place
the Duke of Windsor under arrest, but you know, him
coming out publicly in favor of the Peace Party could
sabotage the war effort, which is already becoming desperate and
strategic terms. And this basically was when the fix was
in Okay for Defense Regulation eighteen B and when Moseley
was arrested. To be clear, at peak there was only
sixty five or so internees, and a lot of these
people were there. A lot of these people were Right
Club members, some of them were Imperial Fascist League holdovers.
But it was basically tailored, like a lot of that
was cosmetic, it was it was very clearly tailored to
incarcerate Moseley and you know Ruin is uh without making
him a martyr. I think by then they realized even
if they had the even if they had the nominal
legal authority to execute him, that that would have been
disastrous for reasons they'll get into. But at and B
was the was like the imprisoned Moseley Act and all
but name Okay, the UH immediately before or in the
year in like the six to twelve months before he
was incarcerated. In the days after the UK's war declaration
as Germany, Moseley went on a tear But he framed
this very skillfully, like I don't mean anything cynical, like
you believed everything he said. But he again, he he
was he was sticking to his ammunition to people to
scrupulously abide the law and not to try to undermine
the war effort, although you know, obviously like he admoonaged
people and not doing anything to help it. He started
characterizing the Peace Party cause like what it becomes kind
of the Peace Party de facto as you know, leave
that leave four elements on the content to fight out
through him quarrels. You know, He's like, we, uh, we've
gotta we've got to curate the empire and what what
remains of the empire, you know, because at that point
there was h the Irish situation. You know, there was
real talk in the Parliament of letting India go. I mean,
this was this was a this was a critical juncture
in historical terms, you know, And he said that we've
got to We've got to carry the empire. We've got
to shore up, you know, this vast capital that we
do still possess. We've got to transition somehow into a
post imperial condition without sacrificing our power, projection ability and
our our truly global capital. You know. And this made
a lot of sense, not just a fascists, and you know,
people were disgusted with the War Party and the Focus,
but it made a lot of sense, even the Tories,
you know, like those who hadn't been totally compromised by uh,
you know, by the Focus and and and adjacent element.
And Moseley was saying something that was on people's minds
but was not supposed to be said. You know, he said,
like war, even if we win this war, it will
lead to the disaster of defeat. It will lead the
triumph of communism in planetary terms, it will be the
end of the British Empire. You know, the only winners
will be international Jewish finance. You know, his words, not mine.
I'd agree with that, but just to be clear, America,
in the Soviet Union and world communism, this is a
suicidal effort. You know, they're Germans are not our enemies,
but an of if you hate them, we can't win
this war, you know. And a certain energy started developing
behind that, you know, like Uh, Diana Moseley Uh made
the point like years on and that October ninety thirty
nine at the Stoll Theater, just under three thousand people
turned out and uh mostly started openly condemning Jewish capitalists,
you know, American Jewish capitalists and and radical radical elements. Uh.
You know, who who have who have a Zionist cause
in mind, who are or driving us towards war? When
when Britain's had no interest in this war and she
said that people were going nuts like effusively they were
like throwing romans at him and stuff. You know this
Uh at the New Hippodrome it was the same thing.
It was a two thousand or so people, you know,
almost all of whom were like throwing romans to loots
like it was like a mini like number rally, you know,
and obviously special branches on the ground watching this stuff.
And hostile media, I mean, other than the Daily Mail,
the entirety of national media was against Mosley. But you know,
just by word of mouth and just by you know,
getting FaceTime with regular people in all these districts where
there might be fertile ground for his message. And of
course too, these are the guys and the parents and
sweethearts and wives like guys, we're gonna get we're gonna
get drafted, you know, living in these places. There was
a real momentum there. And this was London also in
large measure, okay, and I mean that's huge, and especially
in the UK, it's like every one thing. If Moseley
was uh was only raising mobs of this of this
numerical magnitude you know, in the sticks or in you know,
kind of far flung constituencies, I mean, like his own Frankly,
that'd be one thing, but I mean this was, this
was in London. He was doing this, you know, and
the mostly rallying cry at this point, just before internament
was like raise your arm for peace, meaning like you know,
hail victory, but you know for peace. You know, when
that that really really really upset vance Attard. Van Sittard
took to going around handing out I mean, what what
what what a petty piece of shit that this guy was.
Instead of going around druing of a list of people
he wanted to see shot for treason, Like what what
kind of a like like, what kind of an adult
man of presumably you know, sound mind goes around and
drawing up a list of people he wants dead. I mean,
you can't, you can't make this up. But these are
the kinds of people who were, you know in UH
in the true seat of power, which speaks for itself.
But another thing, that kind of UH not just sealed
Moseley's fate in terms of UH, the focused regime, but
also raised his profile and made him indisputably the UH
that like the the the leader of British fascism and
national socialism. It was the matter of William Joyce, as
I think of it, and also Gebels openly praising mostly
and Gebels didn't really praise anybody outside of the Greater
German Reich as a part of that was political. Part
of that was because Gebels was it just wasn't really
in his nature to be that charitable, you know. But
William Joyce UH was executed in a gross miscarriage of justice.
And I'll get into why that is. Who is William Joyce.
William Joyce joined the British Union of fascists in uh
nineteen thirty two, so he could be considered an all confer.
He became a leading speaker. He was an Irish Man.
He was Protestant, but he was an irishman, like I
don't mean he was an ulsterman. I mean he was
Irish Irish, but well, I'll get into his family's loyalism
and his mother's confessional heritage. But he, uh, he was
a typical kind of were not typical beaure's nothing typical
about this, but he's kind of like a cliched like
great kind of like Irish order and like partisan. You know. Uh,
he was just like very thin, almost kind of almost
kind of spectral looking man, like very pale, but super intense.
You know, it wasn't conventionally handsome, but like women really
liked him and and like and like guys looked up
to him, and you know he there's like this kind
of dynamic like really really forceful, angry tenor to his
delivery that never seemed like theatrically ridiculous. Like the guy
he just seemed like stone like a stone cold artisan
who also I had like a gift of like beautiful
flourish that was never obnoxious and soaring in its quality.
But uh he became the BUF director of propaganda. He
replaced Wilfred Risden and later became arguably the like like
the closest man after the closest man to Mosley, like
in in the leadership element. He also like and as
another like cliched Irish character is he was a brawler.
Like he he'd go, he'd go toe to toe with
any man. He had no fear and despite like not
being physically strong, he was incredibly tough and people were
afraid of him. He was like a legit like street fighter.
But uh, what's significant though, is he he'd been born
in Brooklyn, you at, New York City, USA. His parents,
uh were from the West of Ireland. His mother was
a devout like Anglican, like Church of Ireland Anglican. His
day he was a Catholic, but his mom definitely ruled
the roost, and when he was still an infant, his
parents moved back to Ireland. You know. But he his
citizenship was American and Irish. He was not a British citizen.
And this becomes significant not just for academic reasons, but
for reasons of due process on other things. But his big,
his big contribution in part he spearheaded the effort to
First of all, he was instrumental in changing the name
that BUF for the British Union of Fascists and National Socialists.
He identified as a national socialists first last and always. Okay,
he had no time. I mean, he was obviously pro white,
like all national socialists are. They had no time for
the bullshit racialism of people like our lease. You know,
he said, our enemies first last and are the Jews.
You know, if if we're not going to attack Jewish
power and identify Jews as is like the enemies of
of of of the European race, then we're not serious,
you know. And the transition of the party platform away
from this kind of like in ideological terms, that kind
of secular corporatism and away from this kind of like
bullshit racialism towards you know, a real kind of national
socialist disposition that was very, very focused on combating when
they perceived as the Jewish enemy. This this was this
was because of Joyce. Okay. He was ultimately sacked by
Moseley and he went on to ablish his own national
socialist firm, which wasn't the mass membership organization that thinks
the question is whether Joyce, despite is brilliance for oratory
and political soldiery in partisan terms, I speculate he might
have thought that a Sea Lion assault was coming and
he was trying to form a cadre. But because it
may him and Moses falling out, Mosey refused to condemn
him or speak against him. It was pretty clear it
was personal or Joyce maybe will have had designs on
on on leadership, and that's something you can't tolerate. It
doesn't make you an egomaniac or somebody who's in the
game for clout. You can't. You can't have people who
are like intriguing to like replace you in the ranks.
But one of the reasons I believe that Joyce thought
Sea Lion was gonna be reality, Joyce said to his
intimates and confidence openly he was really outraged by the
Government of India bill which was passed in nineteen thirty five.
I mean outraged at the government because that basically was
a plan for like a kind of devolved federalism or
devolved administration in India, similar to what had gone gone
on in Ireland, with eventually obviously like letting India go.
Joyce said, you know, I'm gonna be the Viceroy of
India someday when we win meaning the access powers. You know,
who who is there gonna be under arms as a cadre,
you know, but but us and and and the BUF
you know, a national socialists who've proven themselves by fighting
the communists in the street. I'm paraphrasing, you know, And
and Edward the Eighth is gonna he's gonna, you know,
he's he's gonna reclaim his rightful place again, you know,
on the throne. And I'm gonna become the Viceroy of India.
You know. He's like mostly told me that. I mean
whether Mostly told him that or not, who knows. But
obviously as late as late as a ninety forty one
or so, there's nothing he believed that this is like
actually gonna happen. And don't get me wrong, everybody thought
that Germany was was going to realize n sig That's
what I'm talking about. He literally thought that, like there's
gonna be like a national socialist United Kingdom like under
German hegemony, and the Empire was gonna you know, become
like the fascist Guardian of the Sea or something, which
seems pretty fantastical. But again, I've noticed that in my
own life as well as in my studies of the
historical record, a lot of guys who make the best partisans,
you know, and in the way that Joyce was, they
don't really understand Blake conceptual geopolitics and in Zeitgeist things. Okay,
so I'm not gonna sit here and make fun of
Joys for being like an Irish and angry Irish romantic
who you know, was was at base like a political soldier.
But Joyce uh realized the way things were going when
the Second World War broke out, and that he realized, okay,
I'm probably eminently going to be arrested, you know. So
Joyce and his wife emigrated to Germany. He'd been tipped off,
probably that he was going to be detained somehow, even
before even before Defense Rag eighteen B came down, especially
because he wasn't the British citizen, you know, if they
wanted to really play perfectest hardball, they could say, well,
you're an enemy alien, aren't you, you know. And in
nineteen forty he became a naturalized German citizen and upon
owing to his own kind of gumption in charisma, as
well as the fact that again he and Mosey are
falling out, but Mosey never condemned the man or anything
of the sort. Joyce had. He had a chance of
meeting with a lady named Dorothy Eckersley who'd also emigrated
to Berlin, and she'd been uh in the in the
women's division of the BUF and she got him an
interview early to sit down at the room funk house,
the broadcasting house. Okay, that is how Lord Hahaw came
to exist. Okay, because Gerbels who was always looking for
people who could propagandaie fluently, you know, in languages that
would be impactful and key constituencies. You know, I can't
remember the names on my head, but there was there
was this Iraqi guy who became buddies with Gebels and
he broadcast you know, Arabic language pro axis propaganda to
Iraq the Levant you know, Palestine, and I mean that's
fascinating too. But uh, Joyce's first broadcast he read the
news out in English on September sixth, nineteen thirty nine,
just three days after the onset of hostilities, and they
were so impressed. And he had he had he had
perfect diction, you know, which he was an educated guy,
and again he had a cosmopolitan upbringing, despite you don't
think of like an Irish street fighter as having that
sort of intellectual resume, but he did. And he uh
he became uh the exclusive English and newsreader of the
Propaganda Ministry. He got his name uh a guy named
uh Jonah Barrington, a Daily Express uh radio critic. He
referred to him as a man quote moaning periodically from
Ziesen who speaks English of the hahawd, damn it out
of my way variety. So uh Joyce decided to lean
into that ship instead of identifying himself as Lord Hawhaw,
which is actually pretty funny. But it what's ironic though,
is later there was this guy, uh who's a comedian
who was also on uh on on on on Berlin
radio then named Wolf Mittler, and uh he was a
comedian and a journalist, and he'd affect this like almost
flawless English accent that sounded deliberately moronic, almost kind of
like a Monty Python his caricature, you know, and I
just like say, like ridiculous bullshit, and it's it's it's
believed Barrington might even though he said that it was
Joyce that he heard, he might have heard uh mitler,
which makes it even like more funny. But uh, you
know and like uh as on the side, I mean
admittedly like uh, I've I've got uh, I've got kind
of a strange sense of humor, but uh, if you
know what to look for and you understand the context,
like adjusting for historic uh nuances. Uh, like a lot,
a lot of a lot of the stuff that came
out of Germany of like that was deliberately comedic was
actually like really funny. Like it's not like Germans are
just like a funny people, you know, like uh figuratively
and like literally and in terms of their comedic chops.
But this, I mean, this whole thing kind of seems
like like like something you'd seen in like a comedic
satire movie. Like it isn't weird, but I mean, like
everything everything that happens with respect the British at wards,
everything involving the British at wartime is weird. But the uh,
the combination of Lord Haja suddenly appearing like whoever Barrington
heard like haha was like a real guy. Yet he
was broadcasting on the daily and that and British intelligence,
you know, which was and they were very good and
they still are in imperative terms them coming to understand
that Gebels thought highly the b UF, and he basically
never mentioned like any other like national Socialist element abroad
m I six uh secret intelligence service. They were laid
back to, uh, they relaid back to the war cabinet. Look,
Gebels considers the BUF to be like the National Socialist
cadre in in in the United Kingdom. That's literally what
they said. And that's when the fix was in finally,
you know, I mean it was I think it was
an out. Most of it was going to be incarcerated regardless.
But that was when even even accounting for the deliberately
loose language uh statutary language devised uh for Regulation eighteen B,
now they had what was, you know, concrete evidence that
Moseley was a clear and present threat to national security
and that uh, that was that what became a joyce.
This is important and just a horrible Joyce was captured
at Flinsburg, which is near the German border with Denmark,
which of course was where like the last play, it
was near me, like the last where the Donnage government was.
You know, Joyce got catured the Uh, British Army intelligence
obviously they took a very strong interest in what was
going on in that operational area. They spotted this disheveled
looking guy gathering firewood, you know, so they confronted him.
The German jew who's adopted uh name was Jeffrey Perry
even born Horst Penschever or Pinschever Pinshever. Uh, like a
lot of a lot of German Jewry, German and Polish
Jews had found their way to the UK and the USA,
and they were very deep and military intelligence. And of course,
uh one of the men who testified, uh interrogated and
then testified on Piper and leipstend Are. It was Pearl
who later came out was was uh what was a torture?
You know? His his his old thing was enhanced interrogation,
you know, which is really really grotesque in all kinds
of ways. But I have no idea if if Perry
aka pinshi Ever tortured anybody. But he was an intelligence man,
and he engaged Joyce in conversation, and he was about
to let him go and he said, Uh, you've got
a really interesting diction. You know, have you ever have
you ever been west? Have you ever been you know,
to the United States of the United Kingdom? And I
guess uh. Joyce answered him in English, and they carried
on for a moment, you know, Joyce kind of carefully
guarding his identity, and one of the other men in
Pinchever's detail said, that's Lord Haha. I recognized that voice,
and Joyce had a really like deep register that was distinct,
you know, if you hear somebody on the radio all
the time, and especially intelligence types who I'm sure we're
studying these broadcasts. Pinchever then detained him and after a while,
you know, Joyce is like, look, I'm not I'm not
gonna pretend I'm William Joyce. I'm Lord haw you know.
He was driven to a border post and then he
was handed over to the MP's he was taking to
London and he was tried on charges of high treason
because again the trees in law, the only punishment was death,
you know, and uh, he pled not guilty on a
theory of I'm not a citizen of the United Kingdom.
I can't be a trader, you know, and a lady
named Rebecca West wrote a book called the Meaning of Treason,
and this kind of brought the case to kind of
greater awareness. Like people, I think people didn't fully realize,
especially because about propaganda as they were, as well as
the lack of availability of information that we take for
granted today, take for granted today. I think they just
assumed that he'd been tried for you know, some some
kind of propaganda related war crime or something, you know,
and didn't really think about it, you know. And of
course Julia Striker had been executed for quite literally publishing
a magazine or a newspaper that was in bad taste,
you know, I mean so, but he was literally tried
and executed for treason, you know. Uh. And uh A J. P. Taylor,
who's a not he's a revisionist in a sense. He's
a great historian. I highly recommend him. Norman Davies was
a disciple at Taylor. Taylor wrote in his History of England.
Technical quote. Technically Joyce was hanged from making a false
statement when applying for a passport, the usual penalty of
which is a small fine, which is kind of this
literal gallows humor, but it also happens to be true
the statement just for clarity, and I'm sure the subs
are probably interested. The statement. The literal statement that was
attributed to Gebels regarding the matter of Oswald Moseley and
the BUF was this is submitted by Special Intelligence Service.
They claimed Gebels was on a record as saying, quote,
Moseley is making his presence felt if he goes ahead skillfully,
he will have several opportunities. That seems weirdly cryptic and scripted.
I mean, I I've read a lot of what Gebels wrote.
I don't want to get into some debate about like
what is authentic and what is not. Just take my
words when I've written a lot of what Gebels. I've
read a lot of what Gebels has written that doesn't
sound like his writing voice, and it's just what does
they mean? Like, you know, this guy will have many
opportunities like that seems tailored to kind of substantiate a
charge of some kind of subversive activity in the role
of proxy of an enemy element. Maybe I'm looking too
much into this, but I don't find it hard to
believe that Gerbels praised mostly he probably did directly in
the presence of somebody who then availed this hearsay to
some British agents or you know, it was recorded on
some document that was then appropriated and delivered to a
you know, the Home Office and intelligence branch or whatever.
And this is just kind of like what the way
they decided to paraphrase it and cross their proverbial te's
and dot their eyes. But yeah, let me see what
the time it is. Yeah, I'll wrap up.
Speaker 1: I think we're looking I think we're looking at another episode.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll wrap it up here in
a minute, and the next episode will deal with like
the British Free Corp. Because that's actually important. Then it's
like a good addendum to this. And plus it's as
cool like Britishers being in. It's just cool. I mean,
I think it's cool, but I'm sure people who were
inclined to listen will too. But there's also been a theory,
and I don't know where David Irving fell on this.
I I tried to find it, but his God love
Irving as well as anybody in his orbit. But the uh,
other than his bookseller website for Focal Point Publications, the
David Irving archive is like a mess. It's become like
a non navigable mess, which sucks. I really, if anybody
close to mister Irving is watching this, please salvage that
stuff and make it accessible in a coherent way. Because
God forbid mister Irving passes away, we're not gonna be
able to access to that stuff, and it's gonna be
wiped from the cloud. But I digress. I think Gebels
may very well have been talking about Albert Arthur Albert Tester.
Arthur Albert Tester, he's referred to in a lot of
I five and six memorandum is doctor Tester. Tester was
the son of a British Foreign Office guy, a diplomat,
and he married a German woman, and his father was
the long serving consul in Stuttgart, where Tester spent like
his early childhood and because that's where he learned to
both English and German. For the rest of his life
he spoke English with like a slate German accent. Okay.
When the First World War broke out, Tester was interned
in Germany as a British citizen. After that his life
kind of goes dark. But he was chased out of
France under suspicion of espionage for Germany. Then he ended
up in the UK in the thirties. He moved into
this like luxury penthouse apartment in London. He also had uh,
this like stately mansion on the sea, and like nobody
had any idea like where this guy got his money.
You know, It's like there was some prestige to like
being a diplomat like his father was. But those guys
didn't have money, you know. So early on Tester joined
the BUF and uh kind of before Joyce really became
a force within the British Union, Tester was advocating national socialism,
you know, he uh and he was basically he was
translating a lot of national socialist literature into English. His
significance isn't really clear. He claimed that like he was
the mind behind it. He said, yeah, Mosey was like
a hard man and a charismatic man, but I was
the brains behind the BUF, Like I wrote their propaganda.
I was the aid de camp of Moseley. I was
the one on the ground at Cable Street who rallied everybody.
I mean, the guy was like an egomaniac. Okay, so
a lot of this was probably cap and bullshit, but
he did play roll and because he was rich as
fuck for reasons nobody could explain, you know, Suddenly when
he joined that's when like Mosley stopped being desperate for
money all the time. It's like obviously like he was
throwing a lot of his wealth into a buf Coffers
and Tester was also he was the only direct link
to the in in terms of a chain of money
or information. Early liaison with the German Reich, he founded uh,
what he called the European Press Agency, which was uh.
He held himself out as I'm just like an independent
newspaper man, but this was like a Reich propaganda apparatus.
Like that's not that, that's not pejorative that, but this
is what it was, Okay, and it's believed by a
lot of people like uh, you know, like revisionists and
others that Okay, Yes, Gebels made the statement, but he
was talking about Tester, you know, Like why why would
Goebels just like randomly mentioned Oswald Mosley? You conveniently win
there's a need to like identify some statement that can
you know, kind of sew up a charge under eighteen B.
So take that for what it's worth. I accept that perspective.
I think Tester was the subject of the statement. But yeah, yeah,
I hope people are continuing to enjoy this series. And
we'll go one final episode in the British Free Corps
and that'll be a change of pace, but it's important
and it bears directly on on the fortunes of Mosley
for the remainder of his life. But yeah, yeah, that's what.
Speaker 1: I got, right, cool plugs place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the best place to find my work product is
on substack. It's a real Thomas seven seven seven dot
substack dot com. At long last, I'm gonna upload the
movie that my dear friend Rake and I made this weekend.
I'm just sussing out the right platform. But regardless, even
if I got to put it on gum Road or something,
you'll be able to like link it from there or
I'll always tell you where it's at. My all on
social media is at Capital R E A L underscore
number seven h O M A S seven seven seven
dot com. And you can also search me unto my
government name, I'm Thomas Sear and seeking you shall find. Yeah,
that's all I got.
Speaker 1: All right until episode seven.
Speaker 2: Yeah s.