1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: I don't know what else there is, Like, what else 2 00:00:26,519 --> 00:00:29,320 can we do and say? If you don't understand at 3 00:00:29,359 --> 00:00:35,840 this point that papism is a giant criminal enterprise, then 4 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,039 I don't have anything else to talk to you about. Like, 5 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,840 I don't even want you around here. You can go elsewhere. 6 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,560 I don't need your friendship, I don't need your interactions. 7 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,799 I don't care about your channels. I don't care about 8 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,200 the clicks. Now, I'm going to have open forums, and 9 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,000 there's always the opportunity of Catholics want to call in, 10 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,479 But there are no more public Roman Catholics been worth 11 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:03,240 debating anymore. I mean I drank a lot as a 12 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,680 trade cat because deep down this shit was insane. I 13 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:08,319 don't know how do I make this work. I might 14 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,920 as well get drunk. I don't know. So I don't know, man. 15 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,799 The documents themselves are insinuitive of a more liberal position, 16 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,719 and they were intentionally written in such a way that 17 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,319 they would be that they could be weaponized later. A 18 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,439 lots of the Council fathers that were rhono Wites admitted this, 19 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,640 things like you know, what's our relationship to be with 20 00:01:31,719 --> 00:01:35,159 the Muslims. Jay made reference to this earlier, what's our 21 00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:39,000 relationship to be with the Hindus, And it sounded more liberal. Really, 22 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,319 what they were doing was quoting things from Pope Pius 23 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,400 the tenth, a very based older pope. They're quoting even 24 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:49,640 from medieval popes who acknowledged things like, technically speaking, the 25 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:53,680 Muslims are monotheists. Technically they're one of the Western religions. 26 00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:57,159 Technically they worship the One True God, but they worshiped 27 00:01:57,159 --> 00:02:00,719 the One True God in the false way Trads, you know, 28 00:02:01,159 --> 00:02:03,680 rad Trad's Orthodox. Everyone gets worked up about this, but 29 00:02:03,719 --> 00:02:05,599 it turns out that this is a very very old 30 00:02:05,719 --> 00:02:08,479 medieval term that the Church is not the same for Hinduism, 31 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:11,800 because the Vatican too says the same as they they believe. 32 00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:16,319 They not about Hindus, Hindus, not Moslims Hindus. Okay, read 33 00:02:16,319 --> 00:02:19,199 what it says about hindu loss. In Hinduism, people explore 34 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,159 the divine mystery and they explore it and express it. 35 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,840 How do you explore the true mystery of God? You 36 00:02:25,879 --> 00:02:30,520 can explore what you're looking for, explore Christianity. It's absolutely 37 00:02:30,719 --> 00:02:33,759 don't explore Christianity and Hinduism. They seek release from the 38 00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:37,719 trials of present life through ascetic practices and meditation and 39 00:02:37,759 --> 00:02:40,599 recourse to God in confidence. I agree, all that's bad, 40 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,400 but you miss so it's bad my uncle remus. Wait wait, 41 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,319 my uncle Remis believes dogs like your uncle can fly. 42 00:02:47,479 --> 00:02:49,639 Oh this is your dogmatic statements that are supposed to 43 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:53,360 provide clarity, right, need they need to be interpreted by you? 44 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:54,159 Be those are ambiguous? 45 00:02:54,199 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 2: No? No? 46 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:54,479 Speaker 3: No? 47 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,879 Speaker 1: Are they clear or ambiguous? Perfectly clear? They're Hindu said 48 00:02:57,879 --> 00:03:01,919 it was bad? Wait was it clear or bad? You 49 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,919 finished jail? I'll go after you're done. They have recourse 50 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,639 to God. Gods will do the same thing. So just again, 51 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,400 was that we have said of a collection irrelevant? So 52 00:03:10,439 --> 00:03:13,719 that's a direct object. That's a genetic facis genetic fallacy 53 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,520 to say that because it is. You just said, I 54 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,879 don't know, so appealed authority, appealed authority, genetic fallacy, other fallacy. 55 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,159 They believe you're king of fallacy. The record, we say, 56 00:03:26,159 --> 00:03:28,719 they believe you're lying. You added that explode? Where does 57 00:03:28,719 --> 00:03:30,439 it say they do that? Read the sentence. It says 58 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:33,879 that they seek release, and they have recourse to God 59 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,719 and confidence, and the seek they have recourse, No, and 60 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,479 have recourse, They seek and have recourse, okay, and what 61 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,319 he's going to say and recourse finish up and recourse 62 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,840 What does that mean? Recourse they have They seek in 63 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,840 the canefidence and love in God. I'll speak once he's done. 64 00:03:51,919 --> 00:03:54,639 So what in thematican two documents that I was very honest. 65 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,039 By the way, it's a genetic fallacy. Can I see 66 00:03:57,039 --> 00:04:00,000 the book? Yeah? Yeah, read the sentence paragraph right here. 67 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,439 Let me read it again for you. In the relations 68 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:07,479 is going to keep it. In the religion of Hinduism, 69 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,360 people explore the divine mystery, explore thank you. I just 70 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,479 said that. It doesn't mean they found repeat each word 71 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:15,840 after I say each what have you said ascertained? If 72 00:04:15,879 --> 00:04:17,800 they said ascertained, we'd have a hard time. So he 73 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,199 doesn't want me to read the whole quote because he 74 00:04:19,199 --> 00:04:24,240 knows the later part is the difference beeen Hindu God. 75 00:04:24,439 --> 00:04:27,199 It is very real. They have recourse to God in 76 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:33,240 confidence and love. They start the sentence over they seek. 77 00:04:34,519 --> 00:04:38,439 Jay thinks that the sentence said that Hindus have ascertained, 78 00:04:39,399 --> 00:04:43,319 haven't ascertained? It says that through exploring it. But you 79 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,720 said it was a bad statement earlier. No, no, no, 80 00:04:45,759 --> 00:04:48,680 I said, no, it's not that's from read the document. 81 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,920 I'm saying that it's very easy to misinterpret if I say, mine, 82 00:04:53,199 --> 00:04:55,959 my dear old uncle remus, why do he can fly? 83 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,399 Do we need you to interpret the document? You're saying, 84 00:04:58,519 --> 00:05:00,240 why do we need you to interpret the you to 85 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,920 interpret the dog? The logic professor keeps making fallacies. Ask 86 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,399 me what Let me read what I thought it? Why 87 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,439 do you need to interpret them? Let me read it. 88 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,079 Speaker 4: There's a paragraph before that one I want to read. 89 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,040 I just want to read the full paragraph. Or actually 90 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:16,519 this is part of the full paragraph. 91 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: It says. 92 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,079 Speaker 4: Throughout history to the present day, there is found among 93 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,000 different peoples a certain awareness of a hidden power which 94 00:05:22,079 --> 00:05:24,199 lies behind the course of nature and the events of 95 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,399 human life. At times, there is present even a recognition 96 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,560 of a supreme being, or still more of a father. 97 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,519 This awareness and recognition results in a way of life 98 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:36,600 that is imbued with a deep religious sense. The religions 99 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,639 which are found in more advanced civilizations endeavor by way 100 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,279 of well defined concepts and exact language to answer these questions. Thus, 101 00:05:44,639 --> 00:05:48,079 in Hinduism, people explore the divine mystery and express it 102 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,480 both in the limitless riches of myth and the accurately 103 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:53,120 defined insights of philosophy. 104 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 5: They seek release from. 105 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,879 Speaker 4: The trials of the present life by ascetical practices, profound meditation, 106 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,319 and recourse to God in confidence and love. 107 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 5: Buddhism in its various forms. 108 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:07,439 Speaker 4: Testing costs to the essential inadequacy of this changing world. 109 00:06:07,759 --> 00:06:09,800 It proposes a way of life by which people can, 110 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:13,000 with confidence and trust, attain a state of perfect liberation 111 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:16,319 and reach supreme elimination, either through their own efforts or 112 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:19,399 with divine help. So to other religions which are found 113 00:06:19,439 --> 00:06:22,399 throughout the world, attempt in different ways to overcome the 114 00:06:22,439 --> 00:06:26,160 restlessness of people's hearts by outlining a program of life 115 00:06:26,399 --> 00:06:29,360 covering doctrine, moral precepts, and sacred rights. 116 00:06:29,439 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is our perfect liberation in Hindu. 117 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 4: And real quick, I do want to read this little bit. 118 00:06:34,639 --> 00:06:35,959 I didn't want to read the one paraphy. There's a 119 00:06:35,959 --> 00:06:36,920 little bit more that I think is interesting. 120 00:06:36,959 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: You already said it's bad. It goes one like me again, 121 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,680 another fallacy, hominem so fallacy. 122 00:06:48,319 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 5: It actually says here we have a mute. But immediately follow. 123 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: Because he's calling out, I'm calling out the logic, professor. 124 00:06:53,399 --> 00:06:54,839 I just want to point out that by and back. 125 00:06:55,439 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 4: Okay, sorry, sorry, But immediately following this parent WHI says, 126 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,079 the Catholic Church reject nothing of what is true and 127 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,600 wholly in these religions. There it is as a high 128 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,800 regard for the manner of life and conduct conduct the 129 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,360 precepts and doctrines, which, although differing in many ways from 130 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,199 its own teaching, nevertheless often reflect array of that truth 131 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,639 which enlightens all men and women. Yet it proclaims it 132 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,519 is in duty bound to proclaim without fail Christ, who 133 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,759 is the way the truth in life. In Him, in 134 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,879 whom God reconciled all things to himself, people find the 135 00:07:25,879 --> 00:07:27,160 fullness of their religious life. 136 00:07:27,199 --> 00:07:31,839 Speaker 1: Thank you, I was all that shows contradiction. No, that 137 00:07:31,839 --> 00:07:32,360 doesn't help you. 138 00:07:33,319 --> 00:07:35,199 Speaker 5: I actually agree with with the Catholic view. 139 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 4: It's basically saying the way I interpret that, it's saying 140 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:40,879 Hindus and Buddhists are looking through a key hole and 141 00:07:40,879 --> 00:07:44,319 seeing these fragments that they're not quite understanding properly. And 142 00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:46,560 if they were to adhere to Jesus Christ and find 143 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:46,959 the way. 144 00:07:46,839 --> 00:07:51,279 Speaker 1: The problem is the even non liberals at the council. 145 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,839 Problem is that only written by D fourteen, Jesus says 146 00:07:54,839 --> 00:07:57,000 that he's the only way right, the truth in the life. 147 00:07:57,319 --> 00:07:59,680 It's that. But I understand that the problem is that 148 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,279 you can It says in the religions of Hinduism and Buddhism, 149 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,199 men find love in God and they find they seek love. No, 150 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,319 it says they find it. They believe they unphrase says 151 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,439 seek it. Then it says they find it. Just like 152 00:08:12,439 --> 00:08:14,279 I said, Read it again, just like it says Muslims 153 00:08:14,319 --> 00:08:18,680 adore the one God. Well, well, Muslims are different because 154 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,639 they're not religion, No, they're not. Do they believe religion? 155 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,639 You believe? Do they believe in one God or multiple? 156 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,160 They believe in Monos? Says the Monos the Bible teach. 157 00:08:27,839 --> 00:08:31,120 Does the Bible teach the Trinity? Or Monotheism the Trinity? 158 00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:33,440 So the Muslims don't believe in the God of the body. 159 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:37,240 You know that? Do you know what the sense reference dichotomy? That? Okay? 160 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 5: I have a question. 161 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: So if you understand what sense reference dichotomy, does Jesus okay, 162 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,279 we can be referring to the same thing. Does Jesus 163 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,039 you describe it as yellow? I just and we're still 164 00:08:46,039 --> 00:08:49,519 restarting to say that the Pharisees misunderstanding this reference. Does 165 00:08:49,639 --> 00:08:54,200 Jesus think that the Pharisees accurately worship the Father? No, 166 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,000 of course not so then then that that undoes your argument, 167 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:00,759 undoes your Muslim lane because you said you understand the 168 00:09:00,759 --> 00:09:05,799 sense reference dichotomy. Explain how by sense risk affirmative and 169 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,360 by reference it would be a negative answer. We can 170 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,639 be referring to the same thing. If you think Cleveland 171 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,279 doesn't that and I think they disprove your sense reference argument, 172 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:14,840 and we're not that you want to disprove your sense 173 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,399 with stance of the question, I can disprove it by 174 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:22,960 Muslims sense reference. Do Mormons believe in Jesus? No, Mormons 175 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,919 don't believe. Do they use the term Jesus? No, they 176 00:09:26,759 --> 00:09:30,840 not use the terms absolutely, Mormons use the term wait wait, wait, 177 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:36,679 nor believe Mormons believe Jesus is I'm the one guy 178 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,720 that hasn't been interrupting. So Mormons believe that there is 179 00:09:39,759 --> 00:09:42,960 a historical Jesus. He believes that he that that Mormons 180 00:09:43,399 --> 00:09:45,440 Jesus is not the son of gods. I know what 181 00:09:45,519 --> 00:09:48,799 they believe co religion. So just like Muslims, if they 182 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,960 say I believe in the one God. It's the quantifier 183 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,120 shift fallacy. No, that's just the quantity that's true. But 184 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,039 that's what the document is reference to the quantifier shift fallacy. 185 00:09:57,039 --> 00:09:58,639 Then that undoes what what does that mean? What does 186 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,480 that mean? So it's like if I say I have 187 00:10:00,519 --> 00:10:03,279 one mother, you have one mother. We all have one mother. 188 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:05,519 Therefore we come from the same mother. It's a quantifying 189 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:09,120 shift fallacy. So one God, well, we all believe in 190 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,799 one God. Therefore it's the same God. Vatican two is 191 00:10:11,879 --> 00:10:15,480 using the quantifier shift fallacy. And read the line. Read 192 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,440 the line that you think is false definitively, because there 193 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,919 are no definitive statements you've read that are fault. Notice 194 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,120 that seeking searching, exploring, why do we need. 195 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:26,279 Speaker 2: It? 196 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:27,879 Speaker 1: Was just retarded. Just retard. 197 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,759 Speaker 5: The quartiis shift fallaws is retarded, I think. 198 00:10:29,799 --> 00:10:33,399 Speaker 1: Okay, guys, guys, no claim that there's something false you 199 00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:35,559 just read it is retarded. Okay, let me, let me. 200 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,639 Let's written by liberals. I gave you that it's written 201 00:10:38,639 --> 00:10:40,919 by liberals, but it's supposed to clarify. So the paper 202 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,159 does the job of clarifying. But it's written by liberals, 203 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,960 and we need tim to interpret it for you don't 204 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,200 need me to interpret anything. I'm defending against an attack 205 00:10:49,279 --> 00:10:53,200 that you're making. That's that's common miscar one true God, 206 00:10:53,279 --> 00:11:01,279 living and subsisting in himself. Yeah, sift fallas set with 207 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,080 two bargaining dogs. Every time Muslims claim how about this, 208 00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:07,799 Muslims claim to believe in one. It doesn't say it 209 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,960 says they adore. It doesn't say they claim. Muslims the 210 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,720 words now they adore by the sense of reference dichotomy. 211 00:11:16,039 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 4: Okay, wait, wait, wait, hold on, I want to read this. Yea, 212 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,240 this is important. It says the church also has a 213 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,720 high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is 214 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,879 one living as merciful and. 215 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 5: I'm what I said, I'm not. 216 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 4: Done, the creator of heaven and earth, who was also 217 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,600 spoken to humanity. They endeavor to submit themselves without reserve, 218 00:11:37,639 --> 00:11:39,639 to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted 219 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,720 himself to God's plans, and whose faith Muslims eagerly linked 220 00:11:42,759 --> 00:11:46,799 to their own, although not acknowledging him as God. They 221 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,840 venerate Jesus a prophet, his virgin mother. They also honor 222 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,399 and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the 223 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,559 day of judgment and the reward of the reward of 224 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,679 God following the resurrection of the dead. 225 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 5: For this reason, they highly esteem. 226 00:11:59,159 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 4: And upright life life and worship God, especially by way 227 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,080 of prayer, alms, deeds, and fasting. 228 00:12:04,639 --> 00:12:04,919 Speaker 1: It. 229 00:12:04,919 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 5: It does seem like. 230 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,519 Speaker 4: They're saying, as far as I can tell, Muslims are 231 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:10,480 worshiping the same God. 232 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: Yes, well, yes, this is this is a community college 233 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,559 primer on intro to religions and mean, how you couldn't 234 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,039 get quantified ship it's in your Islam is literally one 235 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,440 of the three monotheisms in Western religion. Is it trying? No, 236 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:25,840 It's not the God of the Bible. According to you, 237 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,600 I said, the Bible God is the Trinity. No, yes, 238 00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:30,360 you did. Well, of course you don't think. I think 239 00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:32,679 the Bible God is the Trinity. Then the Muslims don't 240 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,159 worship the same God because of the quantifier shift fallacy. 241 00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:37,519 The Muslims don't worship the same God. It doesn't say 242 00:12:37,519 --> 00:12:39,799 the same God as US book says. They do, thank you, 243 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:45,279 thank you. They don't worship the same God, Muslim, Are 244 00:12:45,279 --> 00:12:49,519 you serious? What's going on? Heresion? They worship God who 245 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,559 is living and subsisting in the marciful Almighty Creator. No, 246 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,159 you said the same God as Us as us, you 247 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,679 and us. No, No, it doesn't say us. Oh so 248 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:01,799 it doesn't say us. A dude, Muslims worship how many? 249 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,960 How many gods do Muslims worship? Say Jay Dyer? How 250 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,919 many gods do Muslims worship? Worship? How many do they worship? 251 00:13:09,039 --> 00:13:11,679 By the way, one or two or three? I don't 252 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,720 believe in generic monotheism. That's a that's a word that 253 00:13:14,759 --> 00:13:18,960 it's a distinction. I also don't agree. I believe it's 254 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,679 the quantifiership fallacy. One thing. Can you tell me how 255 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,399 I don't believe that they believe they worship One doesn't 256 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,080 matter because the statement is that you said you understood 257 00:13:28,159 --> 00:13:31,879 the sense r go worship. From the orthox perspective, we 258 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,600 reject the whole idea that there are Abrahamic monotistic faiths. 259 00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:39,000 So even though Muslims might see themselves as that, when 260 00:13:39,039 --> 00:13:41,879 we look at the Old Testament revelation, we believe that 261 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:45,240 it is the Trinity explicitly revealing itself in the Old Testament. 262 00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:47,399 They don't know the name per se of the word Trinity, 263 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,240 but it's Yahweh, his Angel messenger and his spirit are revealed, 264 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,600 and in John five through nine, when Jesus debates with 265 00:13:53,639 --> 00:13:57,840 the Pharisees, who were the monotheists, he consistently says, you 266 00:13:57,879 --> 00:14:00,320 don't get the right God, you don't get the right pick. Sure, 267 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:03,240 Abraham worshiped me, Jesus says. In John eight, he says 268 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:06,720 Moses wrote about him, meaning that Abraham and Moses had 269 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,200 faith in Christ. This is a key point to undo 270 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:14,159 the natural theology argument that the Old Testament posited a 271 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,639 generic theism of just a one monotheistic God. If Abraham 272 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,679 believe in the Trinity, then the whole Abrahamic religion thing 273 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,639 falls apart, and Jesus says that to have faith in 274 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,679 him makes you a child of Abraham. Galatians three Paul 275 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,360 says exact same thing. So when Vatican two acknowledges that 276 00:14:30,799 --> 00:14:33,879 they have the faith of Abraham together with us, we 277 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,039 believe that as a denial of Jesus teaching in John 278 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,679 eight that you can be a child of Abraham without faith. 279 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,399 I guess that's the art. That's fair. There are fundamentals 280 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,399 that are absolutely essential to have access to God or 281 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,399 to Christianity. So to deny, for example, the Trinity or 282 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,440 the incarnation puts us one outside of the bounds of 283 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:53,320 Christianity at all. 284 00:14:53,759 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 5: I agree that, Like, look at it this way. 285 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:00,159 Speaker 4: There's a bouncer at a club and he says, if 286 00:15:00,159 --> 00:15:01,759 you follow the rules, you can come to the club. 287 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,919 And half the people follow the rules and get led in. 288 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:05,879 The other half says that guy's telling us to go 289 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:08,240 bash the windows out, and they get thrown out. They 290 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:10,320 thought that's what the guy wanted. It's the same guy, 291 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:11,039 but they're doing it wrong. 292 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: Well, getting we throw the we do throw people out right. 293 00:15:15,279 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 4: My point is when when Vatican two says they worship God, 294 00:15:19,879 --> 00:15:20,960 it's like the bouncer. 295 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:22,279 Speaker 5: Being like, yo, I never told those people to throw 296 00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:22,919 bricks at the building. 297 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: What are they doing? Well? The problem is not just worship, 298 00:15:25,279 --> 00:15:27,600 but Vatican two uses the term of adoration, which in 299 00:15:27,679 --> 00:15:30,480 Kalach theology is more specific than just a generic idea 300 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,080 of natural theology. Adoration is something that's a specific term 301 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,320 for like adoring the Eucharist in Calaic theology. And I 302 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,600 would also point out that when my opening statement I 303 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:41,480 mentioned the fact that the Council of vn, which is 304 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:44,519 a medieval Romancalach theology, which was involved in the crusades. 305 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,320 That attitude today that you see here is completely different 306 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,600 than the attitude then in the Middle Ages, where it 307 00:15:51,639 --> 00:15:54,840 was the abominable sect of Muhammet. In the council they 308 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,399 call crusades against the Muslims to protect the Holy Land. 309 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,399 Sure attitudes change, Dogmadi, No, no, how can you be the 310 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,320 abominable sect of Muhammed? But now, but now together with us, 311 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,159 they adore the once your God. That's the contradiction to 312 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,519 they could be the abominable sect of Muhammad and still 313 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:13,200 worship one they don't, even though by references with us, 314 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,120 Tim Jay can I can I ask? Are these both? 315 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,600 These are both dogmatic councils from Vatican two? Okay, then 316 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,159 dogma contradicts hold. 317 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,559 Speaker 3: On the resolution of the debate was whether Christians and 318 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:25,600 Muslims worship the Saint God. If you concede that it's 319 00:16:25,639 --> 00:16:29,080 possible to worship the True God even without in some 320 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,720 sense knowing him, then you've just mean I'm. 321 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: Not because of the passage is that the knowledge is 322 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,600 not getting you anywhere. Islam is predicated on rejecting the 323 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:45,679 Sun and as getting anywhere, getting anywhere. 324 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,279 Speaker 3: Because I agree with that, who cares if they're getting 325 00:16:49,279 --> 00:16:50,000 anywhere in terms of. 326 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:56,159 Speaker 1: The adoration in Vatican two, suggest that there's a pipeline 327 00:16:56,159 --> 00:16:58,840 that does attain to the to the to the object 328 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,960 that it's acceptable, and that's why the Pope's going pray 329 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:06,319 in the mosques. That's so they're paid in the moss. 330 00:17:06,519 --> 00:17:13,119 That's not what. Can I share my screen to show 331 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:13,839 you what I'm talking about? 332 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 2: No, not yet, No, not yet. It's my turn. So 333 00:17:16,519 --> 00:17:19,400 I did the courtesy. I did the courtesy of. 334 00:17:19,279 --> 00:17:25,039 Speaker 6: Giving everybody syllogisms that summarize my argument in simple logical form. 335 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,680 It's a courtesy, and it makes it an easy target. 336 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,720 It allows you to say, I disagree with premise one, or 337 00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:30,799 I disagree with premise too. 338 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: We did not get that from you. 339 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 6: We got a hodgepodge of quotes and no logic connecting 340 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,160 them together. Your argument appears to be, and if you've 341 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,960 got a slide, otherwise correct me. The argument appears to 342 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:44,000 be if two people attribute different essential properties to it 343 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,279 to a subject term, they cannot refer to the same 344 00:17:46,279 --> 00:17:48,240 insid The superman argument blows the objection. 345 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 2: Superman argument blows it apart. 346 00:17:50,519 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: It's no different of the reference is irrelevant. No, it's 347 00:17:56,279 --> 00:17:59,920 not if it's predicated on rejecting that thing, then it's 348 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,440 no longer referring to the worship and adoration of that thing. Jesus, 349 00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:06,359 you need it? What's your What? 350 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:11,039 Speaker 6: What put it in a syllogism? You've got no logical connection. 351 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: Between the Yeah, you don't have to if you did. 352 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: The argument is about whether or not the worship argument. 353 00:18:18,559 --> 00:18:27,640 I dargue so we can evaluate logic. I came here, streamer, 354 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:32,160 I came here to demonstrate the magisterial contradictions, and I've 355 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,720 already done that. You said that God can be worshiped 356 00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:37,039 as a demon and as the True God at the 357 00:18:37,039 --> 00:18:40,400 same time, you already made nobody ever said that. Nobody. 358 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,319 I'll give you a one thousand dollars. 359 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,599 Speaker 6: I'll give you one thousand dollars if you can find 360 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,839 that on the take on thousand dollars. 361 00:18:49,519 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: You said it was. You said it was both. 362 00:18:52,319 --> 00:18:53,599 Speaker 2: I said an individual. 363 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 6: I said, an individual like the Jews at times, could 364 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,519 worship both the true God and a demon. And therefore 365 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,720 it is not the case that ex. 366 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 1: God. Get you anywhere. 367 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 2: Learn it. 368 00:19:09,559 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: I'm not arguing. I'm arguing your dog. 369 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 6: You're not arguing because it's your Dogmas contradict. 370 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,559 Speaker 1: You can I just ask, Jake, can I just ask. 371 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 3: What you mean by it doesn't get you anywhere? 372 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,279 Speaker 1: What what do you mean by that? I argue that 373 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,680 that can choose teachings contradict previous teachings. That's my argument. 374 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 3: No, just what do you mean by it doesn't get 375 00:19:35,799 --> 00:19:36,359 you anywhere? 376 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,839 Speaker 1: I'm just argument it doesn't There's no Salvafic acceptance of 377 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,920 God in that in that in that relationship. 378 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 2: That's what. 379 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,839 Speaker 1: The point of the My argument is that Vatican to 380 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,279 contradicts the previous dogmas. That's my argument. That's what I 381 00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:55,960 came to argue. 382 00:19:56,759 --> 00:19:58,839 Speaker 3: What does that argument have to do with the resolution 383 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,920 of the debate and the tell know of the debate. 384 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,039 Speaker 1: Worship and adoration that is accepted by God is what 385 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,519 I'm arguing about. So you can argue something else, but 386 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:12,480 who cares about them? My point is that can I 387 00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:14,559 put my slide back up to make why I'm making 388 00:20:14,559 --> 00:20:21,400 this point? My slide The reason that this matters is 389 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,720 that this is not an intellectual issue, Believe it or not, 390 00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:29,519 this is a spiritual issue. Yeah, exactly, I know that 391 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,960 as a Tomas do you think that the problem is intellectual? 392 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,119 But it's not, it's spiritual. So when the popes act 393 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,880 on this Vatican two document that Muslims, Jews, and Christians 394 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:42,960 all worship the same God and they pray in the 395 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,240 synagogues and the moss towards Mecca, which according to Aquinas 396 00:20:46,279 --> 00:20:50,960 are actions of apostasy. That's my argument. You have an 397 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,519 apostate papacy that you follow and that you defend. This 398 00:20:54,640 --> 00:21:01,759 is your spiritual tradition meant about. You got no arguments. 399 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:03,680 This is the argument. 400 00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 6: Argument, argument has princes and conclusion contradict. The reference of 401 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,279 God depends on revelation and the and the Muslims just 402 00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:16,559 pick it up. They borrow it and take it over 403 00:21:16,599 --> 00:21:21,079 from the Jesus have no natural theology whatsoever. 404 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: The natural revelation in this project is the God of 405 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,599 the Old Testament. That's why David worshiped Jesus. And I 406 00:21:28,599 --> 00:21:31,839 think in your last dream you said David didn't worship Jesus. 407 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:32,559 Is that correct? 408 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 2: Not by that name? Did he did? David? Did David 409 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:39,440 ever mention Jesus? 410 00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: Did mention the name in the Book of Zachariah. It's 411 00:21:43,759 --> 00:21:45,480 Yesua that appears you didn't know that. 412 00:21:46,759 --> 00:21:48,839 Speaker 2: And do you think he was referring to a first 413 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:51,519 century Palestinian Jew, hun, do you hunt? 414 00:21:51,799 --> 00:21:55,799 Speaker 1: You don't think that Jesus is the song? You didn't 415 00:21:55,839 --> 00:22:00,319 realize that Jesus, he doesn't know that, he doesn't know, 416 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,119 doesn't even know that Jesus lived in first century Palace. 417 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,839 Who is the god of the Old Testament? You didn't 418 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:10,279 know that? 419 00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: Yes he is? Amen, brother, Amen, But a. 420 00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: Look at this guy, demon jes eat with Abraham. 421 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,799 Speaker 2: Probably so what so. 422 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: You don't know what happened in Genesis? You don't know. 423 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 2: Probably you don't know, you don't know. 424 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:36,799 Speaker 1: Just make your this is boring, You're boring, You're boring. 425 00:22:37,599 --> 00:22:38,519 Look at this guy. 426 00:22:39,079 --> 00:22:40,039 Speaker 2: Make an argument. 427 00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:44,759 Speaker 1: The argument is that I can't theogy talking over me. 428 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:48,400 Look at this guy. I don't know natural theology. You 429 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,200 like nothing that I am. 430 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,759 Speaker 6: Said, nothing that I have said, hinged on any natural theology. 431 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 2: You're full of straw men, red harings. 432 00:22:56,519 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 1: You said in your last dream, you said, in your 433 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,119 last dream. But Dad didn't know Jesus, you said, David 434 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:03,400 didn't know Jesus. 435 00:23:05,039 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 2: Name, not as the first entry policy and you and also. 436 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: So Jesus is you don't believe that he's You don't 437 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,279 believe he's the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament. 438 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,279 Speaker 2: What's your point make an argument? 439 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,039 Speaker 1: You don't believe that Jesus is the angel of the 440 00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:24,240 Lord in the Old Testament? Of course I did, Okay, 441 00:23:24,319 --> 00:23:27,680 So what so Jesus says that Abraham believed in me? 442 00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:29,519 Right John five? 443 00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:30,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what? 444 00:23:31,599 --> 00:23:34,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Jesus in the Trinity in the Old Testament. 445 00:23:34,319 --> 00:23:39,599 You were wrong, Yes, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah. That 446 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:47,279 doesn't follows. So it's not okay, what are you doing? 447 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 6: A thousand dollars I'll give I'll give you one hundred. 448 00:23:54,839 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: You can make a syllogism. 449 00:23:57,519 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 2: If you can make a. 450 00:23:58,519 --> 00:24:07,319 Speaker 1: Syllogi Trinity revealed, no argument is of course it is? 451 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,279 So what when Islam picks up that revelation, it's no 452 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:13,079 longer that God? 453 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,559 Speaker 2: Uh huh? Why not? 454 00:24:16,759 --> 00:24:18,799 Speaker 1: What the hell are you? What are you talking about? 455 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,960 The triad? 456 00:24:23,519 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 2: What? This is a nonsense? 457 00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:28,319 Speaker 6: You refer to to try you and God without knowing 458 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,759 that God is trying, just as Clark Lewis linkn refer 459 00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:33,440 to Clark knowing he can. 460 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 2: When Lois says. 461 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:43,759 Speaker 1: Religion is a weekly he's referring to. 462 00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 7: All right, guys, hey, let me let me jump in here. 463 00:24:44,759 --> 00:24:47,440 This is this is getting this is getting a little 464 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,839 bit out of hand. Let's let's let Trent make his 465 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,000 point about Clark Kent Superman real quick, just to let 466 00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:54,799 him do that, and then we'll continue. 467 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what can what? 468 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:03,559 Speaker 6: What I'm saying is that you can refer to the 469 00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:05,960 Triune God without knowing that God is trying. 470 00:25:06,079 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: That's just simple. You can have a million examples. 471 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,559 Speaker 1: You can you can refer to people. 472 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,319 Speaker 6: You can refer to people in ways as they don't 473 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,839 know the essential properties. 474 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: Let's let him. 475 00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 7: Let's let him finish his thought, and then. 476 00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:23,039 Speaker 6: It's called the day Dick, It's called the day dicto 477 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:24,440 de rey distinction. 478 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 2: And you can easily. It happens all the time. You 479 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,720 can refer to things that. 480 00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 6: Have properties that you not only don't know they have, 481 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,480 but you can believe they don't have them. 482 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: It's easy. People do it all the time. 483 00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:38,519 Speaker 7: All right, now, let's let Jay come in and Trent 484 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,599 don't interrupt. Trent, don't interrupt. 485 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: So again, he had no idea about Old Testament theology, 486 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,279 doesn't even know if Jesus is revealed in the Old Testament. 487 00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:48,359 He denied it the other day in his stream. And 488 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,200 then when we come to this basic question I asked 489 00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:51,640 him at the Old if the Trinity is in the 490 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,960 Old Testament, he doesn't know. Maybe I guess who cares. 491 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,160 The reason that matters is that he just argued a 492 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,640 few minutes ago that Islam picked up this revelation in 493 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,599 Jenner from what they heard Christians and others saying, Remember, 494 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,680 Muhammad was unlettered, he couldn't read, so he was getting 495 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,079 all this arly right. Islam is predicated not just on 496 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:13,839 natural theology. They do have a natural theology of debts 497 00:26:13,839 --> 00:26:17,400 shikaz or Rashiet. On this point, it's predicated on explicit 498 00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:20,920 rejection of trinity. In fact, in the Qur'an, their entire 499 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,440 chapters in sections saying you may not believe that Allah 500 00:26:24,519 --> 00:26:26,839 is the Father, you may not believe in Triad. So 501 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,559 the analogies and examples that he gave fail because the 502 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,160 religion of Islam is erected on a specific rejection of 503 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,880 the Trinity. That's why it matters to go into the 504 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,240 Old Testament to talk about natural theology. And the reason 505 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,359 that Father Deacon brought up the core beliefs of natural 506 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,960 theology is that that's Swinburne and Aquinas and everybody's ideas 507 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,440 as to what the essential supposed attributes of God are 508 00:26:50,519 --> 00:26:53,839 from natural theology. When Aquinas argues this point, he argues 509 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,160 it from natural theology. Vatican too is arguing natural theology. 510 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,519 And by the way, you notice they don't want to 511 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:04,000 talk about in the magisterial contradictions though for us Christians, 512 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:10,720 who judges mankind on the last day, Allah, no Jesus, 513 00:27:13,039 --> 00:27:16,160 that's an explicit reference that it is not our God. 514 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,680 It is not the same judge, it is not the same. Right, 515 00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:25,440 like the Jews and like the Samaritan woman, Basil says, 516 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,759 you've lost the faith, You've lost God. You do not 517 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,200 worship the God that we worship. Who is trinity? You know? 518 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,160 MEA says, I reject your trinity. Basil says, you no 519 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,039 longer have God. Saint John christilsom. Jews do not have God, 520 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,960 they do not have the Father, they do not have 521 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,559 the worship of God the Father. Exactly what Jesus says 522 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:57,240 in John five and John eight. What is the patristic 523 00:27:57,319 --> 00:28:01,559 terminology here? Oh, it's exactly what we say, it isn't it. Yeah, 524 00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:05,319 And I'm going to talk about them still lying about 525 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,960 Palamas because they haven't read Palamas. They don't know that 526 00:28:09,039 --> 00:28:13,400 the entire first Triad is against natural theology. And Palamas says, 527 00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:18,359 if Plato got one conceptual idea about God right, it 528 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,880 really doesn't matter at all because it's all demonic and worthless. 529 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,720 The very point that we're trying to make, getting one 530 00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:32,759 thing or one attribute doesn't equate to worshiping and loving 531 00:28:32,799 --> 00:28:37,680 the thing. All that equates to is getting one attribute, right. 532 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,240 That's it, And we're gonna see what Jesus says about 533 00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:45,759 getting one attribute or a handful of attributes right. It 534 00:28:46,079 --> 00:28:51,039 doesn't get you anywhere. It's not salvific. Now, they said, 535 00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:53,480 I don't have a problem saying it's not soelvific. Oh, really, 536 00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:55,599 you don't have a problem saying that it's Then why 537 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:06,079 does Vatican two use the terminology of salvific presence in Islam? 538 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,160 By admitting that, you're admitting that Vatican two is a 539 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:17,400 surrendering of the position. Remember Tomashevsky's opening slides. He believes 540 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,359 that Islam is not self effict and it does not 541 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,240 get you to God, but that the reference is the same. 542 00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:32,440 And the whole point of this debate again is that 543 00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:37,680 Vatican two's documents don't just say, okay, Muslims have a 544 00:29:37,759 --> 00:29:40,319 conception of God. They think they love God, they think 545 00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:45,039 they worship God. It says together with US Catholics, they 546 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:56,319 do it, you liars, along with us Muslims adore along 547 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,839 with US Catholics. Muslims adore the one God. Let's get 548 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:06,119 a little refresher. What did the medieval popes say they 549 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,119 worship demons? The reason this doesn't work is that it's 550 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,640 that's a false analogy, because in the case of certain 551 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:19,480 reference and intentionality, you might be able to intend the 552 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:22,720 same deity. And if if if no stra Ta tra 553 00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:28,319 Vatican or Illuminingentium only kept it at that's what they believe, 554 00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:31,079 you might be able to make the text work. The 555 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,000 problem is that that's not all that it says. It 556 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:39,279 actually says that they do adore the same deity that 557 00:30:39,359 --> 00:30:42,599 we do. The one they do adore doesn't say they 558 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,960 think they adore the one God. It says they do 559 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,039 adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself, merciful 560 00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:50,960 and all powerful, the creator of heaven and earth. They 561 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,400 take pains to submit to his undisputable and indiscrutable. His 562 00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:02,559 inscrutable decree is just as Abraham. So in sentence, let 563 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,559 me finish in sentence two one and two of Nora 564 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,599 Tate three, there is no qualification that what has been 565 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,200 said so far is merely their intention or their perception. 566 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,599 It identifies the adoration, which in Catholic theology is a 567 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,880 term of worship with what Muslims already possess, and you 568 00:31:25,079 --> 00:31:28,920 just admitted at the beginning that onto logically speaking, it's 569 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,200 not the same referent. So even if they intend it, 570 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,160 it doesn't matter because Vatican two says that they actually 571 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,480 adore that God. You finished, Yeah, okay, great, So. 572 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,279 Speaker 7: I understand what it says, and I think that it 573 00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:44,319 could have said it better. 574 00:31:44,759 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 5: But I also want to focus on. 575 00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: Why are you able to say that infallible dogmatic decrees 576 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,200 from the Vatican could be stated better. 577 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 4: I'm not. 578 00:31:55,279 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: You just said it could be better. So are you 579 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,519 more competent than the papacy? 580 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:00,359 Speaker 3: No, I'm not. 581 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,839 Speaker 1: Well, you just said it could be stated better, So 582 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,000 in this case you are right. 583 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 2: No, I just want to. 584 00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm not meaning to be rude to you, Calk Primer, 585 00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:15,359 but this paper takes on Swinburne and other pretty pretty 586 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,480 popular proponents of tomistic natural theology go ahead. 587 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 5: So what that paper says, it doesn't say. 588 00:32:27,519 --> 00:32:30,839 Speaker 1: Documents contradict. So when you go to another place where 589 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:33,240 it says, well, do you admit that Jesus is and God? 590 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,960 That doesn't address my argument that the docum