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Are you feeling lucky? 27 00:00:57.039 --> 00:00:57.240 Nope? 28 00:00:57.320 --> 00:00:59.560 Just necessary void were my long eighteen plus terms conditions 29 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:00.159 plus you will. 30 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:16.159 Lad you are now listening to True Murder, The most 31 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.599 shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that 32 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:25.879 have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. 33 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.599 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 34 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:31.840 and infamous. 35 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:32.799 Killers in true crime history. 36 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:38.959 True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 37 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:53.760 Good Evening. Beekman Place, once one of the most exclusive 38 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:57.560 addresses in Manhattan, had a curious way of making it 39 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:02.959 into the tabloids in the nineteen thirties. Skyscraper slayer be 40 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:07.959 slain in bathtub read the headlines on Easter Sunday. In 41 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:12.800 nineteen thirty seven, the discovery of a grisly triple homicide 42 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:16.599 at Beekman Place would rock the neighborhood yet again and 43 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:20.319 enthrall the nation. The young man who had committed the 44 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:22.360 murders would come to be known in the annals of 45 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:27.759 the American crime as the mad Sculptor, the charismatic Perpetrator. 46 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:31.039 Robert Erwin was a brilliant young sculptor who had studied 47 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:33.639 with some of the masters of the era, but with 48 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:38.240 his genius also came a deeply disturbed psyche. Erwin was 49 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.960 obsessed with sexual self mutilation and was frequently overcome by 50 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:47.879 outbursts of violent rage. Erwin's primary victim, Veronica Gideon, was 51 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:51.319 a figure from the world of pulp fantasy, a stunning 52 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:55.759 photographer's model whose scandalous seminude pin ups would titillate the 53 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:59.960 public for weeks after her death. Erwin's defense attorney, sat 54 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:03.759 Will Leebowitz, was a courtroom celebrity with an unmatched record 55 00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:07.800 of acquittals and clients ranging from Al Capone to the 56 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:13.719 Scottsboro Boys, and doctor Frederick Wordham, psychiatrist and forensic scientists 57 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:17.479 befriended Irwin years before the murders and had predicted them 58 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:21.759 in a public lecture months before the crime. Based on 59 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:26.520 extensive research and archival records, The Mad Sculptor recounts the 60 00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:29.719 chilling story of the Easter Sunday murders, a case that 61 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:33.199 sparked a nationwide manhunt and endures as one of the 62 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:38.159 most engrossing American crime dramas of the twentieth century. The 63 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:41.639 book evokes the fated glory of post depression New York 64 00:03:41.800 --> 00:03:45.919 and the singular madness of a brilliant mind turned against itself. 65 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:50.280 The book they were featuring this evening is The Mad Sculptor, 66 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:54.240 the Maniac, the Model, and the Murder that Shook the 67 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:57.840 Nation with my special guest, journalist and author and professor 68 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:01.000 Harold Scheckter. Welcome back to a program, and thank you 69 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:10.439 for a green in this interview. Harold. Check there. Good evening, Harold, 70 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:32.319 Good evening, Harold, welcome to the program. Hello, good evening, Harold. 71 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:34.439 Welcome to the program. 72 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.439 Dan, I'm very glad to be here. 73 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:40.879 Thank you very much. We just had a little difficulty, 74 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:47.519 technical difficulty connecting with you. Yes, I can thank you. Good. 75 00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.759 Well, my pleasure to be here. I appreciate your inviting 76 00:04:50.839 --> 00:04:51.279 me back. 77 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:55.879 Well, it's my great pleasure, and I'm sure the audience 78 00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:01.079 is great pleasure. You've out tun yourself again with another great, great, 79 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:09.959 fascinating and incredible story. So let's get right to this. 80 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:13.519 This is you harken back to nineteen thirty seven in 81 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:18.920 New York, and we go back to the time nineteen 82 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.680 thirty five. We alluded to it in the synopsis of 83 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:25.800 the book itself. The description of the book tell us 84 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:30.879 about Manhattan at that time and Beakman Place, And you 85 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.959 give us a background to describe the time, the post 86 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:38.519 depression era. So take us back to that time and 87 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:40.360 describe for us what it was really like. 88 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:49.279 Well, I, you know, initially became very very interested again 89 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:53.879 in the Robert Irwin case, which happened in nineteen thirty seven. 90 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:59.680 But when I began my research, I discovered that several 91 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:05.439 other very very sensational murders had occurred in that particular 92 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:11.959 neighborhood within a two year span. Beakman Place, which now 93 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:16.720 is a very very exclusive, expensive address on the East 94 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:24.120 side of Manhattan, had back in the late nineteenth early 95 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:30.000 twentieth century descended into a kind of poverty, and because 96 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:35.439 it's located on the water, starting in the late nineteen twenties, 97 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:40.240 all these very wealthy people began to colonize the area, 98 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:45.000 and by the mid nineteen thirties, Beakman Place was this 99 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:52.000 kind of odd combination of extremely luxurious residences and some 100 00:06:52.680 --> 00:07:00.399 still slummy areas. And there was a famous place that 101 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:03.480 was written at the time called dead End, which was 102 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:08.120 made into a Humphrey Bogart movie, and that introduced the 103 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.360 dead End Kids, who later became the Bali Boys and 104 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:16.240 the movie had to do with this odd juxtaposition of 105 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:22.120 extreme wealth and poverty that that neighborhood represented back then. 106 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:29.959 So but starting in nineteen thirty five, there was a 107 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:35.639 series of extremely sensational murders that occurred in the neighborhood, 108 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:40.360 and the tabloids, which at that time were at their height, 109 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:46.959 you know, exploited these murders to the fullest. So I 110 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:49.439 ended up writing, and you know, the book, I ended 111 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:51.879 up writing about three murders. I mean, the main one 112 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:56.199 I focus on is the Mad Sculptor murders, but there 113 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.519 were these two earlier murders that I begin by talking 114 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:05.319 about the book, right, And the first of them was 115 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:13.560 a woman named Vera Stretz who shot and killed her 116 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:18.920 well what the tabloids called her Nazi lover boy, who 117 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:24.279 was a very very prominent German businessman who was actually 118 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.199 in line to become the German ambassador to the United States. 119 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:34.000 His name was Fritz Kebhart. Vera had gotten involved with 120 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:38.759 him on a Mediterranean cruise and become his mistress. And 121 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:45.440 then at some point when he apparently announced, after having 122 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:47.519 promised that he was going to leave his wife and 123 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:53.279 marry her, that he renegged on that promise, she shot 124 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.639 him in the Beakman Hotel, which was a very very 125 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:02.679 luxurious residential hotel at that time. Became this hugely sensational story. 126 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:08.360 And then one year later, another very very grizzly murder 127 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:13.919 happened in Beakman Place. A young woman named Nancy Titterton, 128 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:19.000 who was an up and coming novelist and whose husband 129 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:23.039 was an executive at NBC Radio at that time, was 130 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:27.120 raped and murdered in her home on Beakman Place. So 131 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:34.120 there were these two again previous very sensational murders that happened, 132 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:38.039 and you know, at that time was already being considered 133 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:42.120 to be this enclave of privilege and safety and so 134 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:42.960 on and so forth. 135 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:49.559 So in nineteen thirty five, very much like our own 136 00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:53.440 time and in our not so or just our recent past, 137 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.720 there was certainly the elements that made for the media 138 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:02.159 frenzy and made for good tabloid press. 139 00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:03.080 Yeah. 140 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.000 And also when you say that you also include these stories, 141 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:07.960 do you also include these stories? Because you can talk 142 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.440 about the defense attorneys at that time, and you can 143 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:14.919 also talk about the media. And it almost seemed like 144 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:17.720 they were doing a dress rehearsal for this Easter Sunday, 145 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:18.720 nineteen thirty seven. 146 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:22.559 Yeah, well, you know, I mean, one of the things 147 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.480 that always interests me as a true crime writer, and 148 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:31.879 I guess, you know a student of a subject is 149 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:37.840 the way in which you know human beings, going back 150 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:42.759 for as long as certainly there's been anything like a 151 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:46.320 news media, you know, the way the public has always 152 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:49.159 been fascinated by certain kinds of crimes, you know, and 153 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:55.480 again they're you know, very obviously crimes that involved a 154 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.840 certain amount of sexual scandal and a certain kind of 155 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:03.960 gruesome violence. You know, obviously when they involve somehow, when 156 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:07.039 they involve people of a kind of a higher or 157 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:12.840 more privileged social class, you know, they tend to stimulate 158 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:16.919 public interest more, you know. So, you know, there's always 159 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:22.559 been this fascination with lurid, sensationalistic crime stories that the 160 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:28.799 tabloid press has been very, very eager to exploit. And 161 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:31.360 again in the night, you know, the nineteen thirties was 162 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.639 the heyday of tabloid journalism in America. So you have 163 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:38.440 these papers in New York, like the New York Daily 164 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:41.720 News and the New York Daily Mirror, which are always 165 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:46.679 on the lookout, you know for some particularly juicy kind 166 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:51.600 of sex and violent story that they could exploit to 167 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:55.320 sell papers. So, you know, in the case of these 168 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:59.600 Beakman Place massacres, you had this combination of you know, 169 00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:08.200 again presumably very safe and upper class and secure kind 170 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:12.120 of enclave in New York City that had suddenly been 171 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:19.159 visited by these very very lurid sex crimes. And again 172 00:12:19.200 --> 00:12:23.080 there was this trio of crimes that happened really with 173 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:27.919 it an eighteen month span, and that in itself added 174 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:32.720 to the fascination of it. 175 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:37.279 Now, before we get into some of the principal characters here, 176 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:41.240 and they are a fascinating collection of characters, certainly right 177 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:48.240 out of fictional novels. But let's get to Samuel Leibowitz 178 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:51.000 and a little bit of his career because it's he's 179 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.559 a very important character, and so tell us some of 180 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.960 the kind of clients that he had, and what type 181 00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:59.000 of lawyer attorney he really was, and what was the 182 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:01.639 really famous. 183 00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.720 Well, you know, one of the things that attracts me 184 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:07.879 to the particular stories that I write about, you know, 185 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:12.639 or you know, the cast of characters. And I feel 186 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:18.240 that what makes a great crime story is not just 187 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:23.559 the particular crime per se, but the kind of characters 188 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.559 who are involved in the story, and Leebowitz was a 189 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:30.159 very very larger than life figure. He was considered to 190 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:34.360 be the most famous and celebrated defense attorney of his time. 191 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.360 He was known for his very very colorful and theatrical 192 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:45.000 courtroom performances. In one case, very famous case for example, 193 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:51.799 which was known as his Eskimo Pie defense, he was 194 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:57.120 defending a gangster, well it was mad Dog Call. Actually, 195 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:05.840 mad Dog Call had been arrested and accused for having 196 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:09.799 killed in an innocent bystander in this kind of drive 197 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:14.879 by shooting. And one of the people who came to 198 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.679 testify against him was sort of this paid, you know, 199 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:23.600 paid stooge who claimed that he had been out on 200 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:28.159 the street selling Eskimo pies. You know Eskimo pies were 201 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.919 these Well they still sell them. I don't know if 202 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:34.759 you're that had been on the street on this summer 203 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:38.679 day selling Eskimo pies, and he had he had seen 204 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:44.240 mad Dog Call in this car, machine gun in hand, 205 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:49.799 spring bullets out the window, and uh and and killing. 206 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.159 And Leebutz had this guy in the stand and he 207 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.519 asked his assistant to go out and buy a dozen 208 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:02.440 Eskimo pies. And they Leebwitz handed out these Eskimo pies 209 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.840 to the jury and judge, and while they were eating them, 210 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:12.679 he began to question this witness about Eskimo pies. And 211 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.480 the guy knew nothing about Eskimo pies. You know, he 212 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:19.279 had no idea what the labor looked like, he had 213 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.480 no idea how you would actually go about selling them 214 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:24.799 on a hot summer day in the middle of the city. 215 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:29.080 And so he exposed this guy as like a total fraud. 216 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:31.720 So that was the kind of thing he did. I mean, 217 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:38.399 he was known for these very very theatrical performances, and 218 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:44.480 he had this unmatched record of winning at either acquittals. 219 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:47.440 I can't remember the exact number, but you know, by 220 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:51.759 the time he was defending their a stretch, he had 221 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:57.000 something like he had defended something like seventy eight clients 222 00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:01.080 who were accused of murder and he had won seventy 223 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:06.399 seven acquittals and one hung jury. So and he figures 224 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.000 in all of these different cases that I write about 225 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:14.200 in my book. And he began, you know, by representing 226 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:18.720 very small time criminals and then worked his way up 227 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.279 to defending people like al Capone. You know, all these 228 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:27.159 very very very celebrity gangsters of the nineteen twenties, and 229 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.919 ultimately he became most famous for his defense of the 230 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:34.360 scottspur Boys, you know, in one of the signature civil 231 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:36.799 rights case of the twentieth century. 232 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:44.279 Yes, yes, so all the players are are in a 233 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.639 certain position. We'll say, for all of this to happen. Now, 234 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:52.360 tell us about Robert So go ahead. 235 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:55.559 No, no, I'm just saying. You know, again, one of 236 00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:58.080 the things that was very fascinating to me about the 237 00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:04.880 Robert Irwin case was a number of extremely prominent figures 238 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:09.480 who were somehow connected to it. Again, there was Samuel Leebowitz, 239 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:13.039 who ended up being Irwin's defender. They were these very 240 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:16.640 very famous sculptors of the time, like Laredo Taft, who 241 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:20.640 was one of America's most eminent sculptors, who you know, 242 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:24.440 became the mentor of Robert r. When there was Frederick Wortham, 243 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:28.839 who later became a very very notorious figure for leading 244 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:33.279 a crusade against comic books during the nineteen fifties. You know, 245 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.200 who is the primary psychiatrist who was treating Robert der 246 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:41.160 when so again, I mean, you know, one of the 247 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.960 one of the elements that's very important to me when 248 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:52.160 I start looking for a case to write about. He 249 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:54.720 has to do with a kind of not only the 250 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.839 story that's involved, but the kind of characters who are 251 00:17:57.880 --> 00:17:58.799 part of that story. 252 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:05.920 Right well, keeping with that, why don't you uh introduce 253 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:10.200 our audience to doctor Wortham, because his his background before 254 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.119 he gets to this point, before he encounters even before 255 00:18:13.160 --> 00:18:17.599 he starts treating uh Robert or when tell us about 256 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:21.119 what what noted or what w what could note his 257 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:27.960 career and tell us a little bit more about doctor Wortham. 258 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:28.799 Well Worhythm's a you know, a very interesting figure. I mean, 259 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:33.720 I yer have known about Worthm you know, from many, many, 260 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:39.759 many years, and my er m my earliest impression of 261 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:43.880 Worthm uh as is true of certainly many people of 262 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.599 my baby boomer age. I I you know, I always 263 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.279 sort of wore them as a kind of boogeyman because 264 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:54.000 in the nineteen fifties worth Them wrote a best selling 265 00:18:54.039 --> 00:19:00.519 book called Seduction of the Innocent, which argued that comic 266 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:05.279 books with the primary cause of juvenile delinquency. You know, 267 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:08.079 back in the nineteen fifties, juve no delinquency was this 268 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.559 you know, great you know, considered to be this you 269 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:17.319 know great national scourge, and and you know, and were 270 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:21.960 them again spearheaded this crusade against comic books that almost 271 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.480 succeeded in driving the entire comic book industry at a business. 272 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:30.200 You know, it did put all these great classic ec 273 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.839 horror comics like The Vault of Horror and Tells from 274 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:36.039 the Crypt out of business, and it led to this 275 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:41.160 congressional investigation of the comic book industry and ultimately to 276 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:45.200 the creation of this Comics Code. But it turns out 277 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:50.759 Wrethm was, you know not. My impression of Worthm for 278 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.119 many years was that he was kind of this McCarthy 279 00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:01.599 era witch hunter and cultural watch dog, you know, sort 280 00:20:01.599 --> 00:20:04.559 of like the people now who are constantly leading these 281 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:10.000 crusades against violent video games and so on. But it 282 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:15.640 turns out he was actually quite a liberal individual who 283 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:27.519 you know, had very very prominent training in psychoanalysis and Germany, 284 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:31.680 you know, had known briefly Sigmund Freud, came over to 285 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:37.000 the United States and was a very very very prominent 286 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:46.279 figure in Johns Hopkins Medical School, opened the first psychiatric 287 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:52.160 clinic in Harlem, offering very very very low price. 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And he he became 315 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:14.279 quite interested in basically the social roots of violence and 316 00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:21.160 became he really became convinced that crime, and particularly murder, 317 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:26.759 you know, could could ultimately be eliminated through this kind 318 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:34.720 of enlightened social psychological treatment. Anyway, he became he was 319 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:43.039 appointed the senior psychiatrist of Bellevue Hospital, and in that capacity, 320 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:47.839 you know, was frequently called upon to testify at criminal 321 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:52.880 trials about the mental capacity of people accused of various crimes. 322 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.640 And so he became early on a very very important 323 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:01.440 forensic psychiatrist. And it was that capacity that he got 324 00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:04.359 to know the subject of my book, Robert Irwin. 325 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.960 Right, well, let's segue into Robert Irwin. Now he is 326 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.160 an interesting background with his father and his mother and 327 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:17.119 his upbringing. So tell us about the upbringing of Robert Irwin. 328 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:22.480 In his background, Well, Irwin was, as it turned out, 329 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:26.599 I mean, he was a child of two Well you'd 330 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:30.440 have to say they were religious fanatics. His father, Benjamin Irwin, 331 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:39.559 was actually the founder of a evangelical church called the 332 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:46.599 Fire Baptist Church Holiness Church. His mother, who was also 333 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.559 very very involved in the Pentecostal movement and various evangelical 334 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:58.640 Christian movements. I mean, they were both people who really completely, 335 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:04.400 completely well their lives were both consumed by this religious zelotry. 336 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:14.960 Irwin's father, Benjamin was almost a kind of stereotypical kind 337 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:20.799 of character, a very very charismatic preacher who would spend 338 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:25.440 his Sundays railing against the evils of the modern world, 339 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:31.920 which included everything from wearing neckties, which apparently was considered 340 00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:37.000 in his particular sect to be some kind of terrible, 341 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:43.559 sinful symptom of modernity. He said he'd rather wear a 342 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:48.480 rattlesnake around his neck than a necktie, to drinking coca cola. 343 00:24:48.759 --> 00:24:51.160 So he would go around, as I say, every Sunday 344 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:58.480 giving these very healthfire and brimstone sermons against sin and 345 00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:01.640 corruption and so on and so forth, and then use 346 00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:04.920 all the money that he had collected, uh to go 347 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:10.160 spend his time in whorehouses, and was ultimately you know, 348 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:16.240 excommunicated from his own church in disgrace, and the mother 349 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:23.079 again was again totally totally absorbed in her particular religious activities. 350 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:26.440 So this was a sort of background that uh Erwin, 351 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:32.640 whose actual name was not Robert Erwin but Fenelon Arroyo 352 00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:39.440 Seco Erwin, Fenelon being a reference to Uh, a very 353 00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:46.359 famous French Protestant preacher, and Arroyo Seco being a reference 354 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:51.759 to the particular park in California where er Erwin was 355 00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:55.319 born during a tent meeting that his mother was attending. 356 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:00.640 So again that was a it was an ex dream 357 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:07.000 fanatical religious background that he sprang from. 358 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:12.480 What the relationship with he and his father wasn't good obviously, 359 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:17.000 But when did his father band in the family. 360 00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:19.920 Well, I mean his father band in the family when 361 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.079 Erwin is a very very young boy. I mean he 362 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:26.279 had very few connections to him. I mean one of 363 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.039 his few memories of his father was his father coming 364 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.920 to visit him when he was a young kid, and 365 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:37.359 his father taking him off and they're going to some 366 00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:42.839 house where there were these as Erwin remembered it, you know, 367 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:50.240 nice women and you know, and Erwin basically sitting and 368 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:54.720 waiting in the parlor while his father disappeared into the 369 00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:59.079 bedroom with a couple of these women. So you know, 370 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:02.519 that was you know, one of the few memories he 371 00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:06.440 had of his father. So basically, Irwin and his two brothers, 372 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.599 all of whom ended up, you know, being career criminals. Well, 373 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:15.480 the two brothers ended up being career criminals, were raised 374 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:18.119 quote unquote by their mother. All of their mother was 375 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.759 primarily spending most of her time, you know, pursuing her 376 00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:22.960 religious activities. 377 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:30.000 Now, in terms of this often happens, and like you 378 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.880 say that the father was a zealot and preached against 379 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.759 things like neckties and uh, coca cola, What was the 380 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.839 mother's attitude towards sex and religion and what did she 381 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:47.839 have to say to the boys, especially or Robert included. 382 00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:53.960 Well, apparently she had read some kind of book, according 383 00:27:53.960 --> 00:28:00.519 to Irwin's later recollections, which advised parents and mothers, you know, 384 00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:04.559 to be fairly open about sexual matters with their children. 385 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:10.160 But somehow she interpreted that as walking around nude, or 386 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:13.119 at least letting the kids seeing her nude. I mean, 387 00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:17.680 Irwin's you know, had very very very vivid memories of 388 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:23.519 seeing his mother bathing naked in front of him and 389 00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:27.359 his kids. So you know, I mean there's a there's 390 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:35.799 a whole rich and I think largely unexplored area having 391 00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:42.680 to do with the connection between certain kinds of religious zelodry, zealotry, 392 00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:50.680 and sensational crime that you know hasn't been fully explored. 393 00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:58.599 So but but you know, Irwin is one of a 394 00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:04.400 fair number of American killers, you know, who have some 395 00:29:04.759 --> 00:29:10.000 relationship maybe too extreme religious upbringings and backgrounds. 396 00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:15.880 So now, at this time, I know it's early. I 397 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:20.119 know it's you know, it's early in terms of America 398 00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:25.279 and recognizing mental health or even even having a term 399 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:29.240 for some of the mental illness I guess, or recognizing 400 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:32.839 it in anyone or symptoms. So was there anything odd 401 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.640