Speaker 1: What is up, fellow Sikos.
Speaker 2: I am Dana Valley coming at you with the one,
the only, the certified, fantabulous, mister Grant Hughes. We're here
to talk about Matthew Stafford resigning with the Rams.
Speaker 1: It looks like breaking news for recording. Oh wait, sorry,
that's a That's Brown podcast. We ever own an NFL show?
Of course we're here. We don't. I'm just kidding. We're
here to talk.
Speaker 2: We're gonna go through it every team exercise of which
NBA player is more important to their team's future, and
we'll get into a set into a second, how we're
going to define future. This isn't like the next five
years for every team, since, as Grant pointed out, that's
not like the most efficient or realistic way to look
at it. But we tried to pick some of the combinations.
Grant I went back and forth. There's just obligatory ones
that we needed to pick, like the one combo for
each team, and then there's ones that we just either
find fascinating maybe that would be more SICKO than not,
so they kind of just run the gamut of.
Speaker 1: And some are just we don't know what the hell
to pick here.
Speaker 2: But it's gonna be fun, Like just even going through it,
it's gonna be very interesting exercise first though, Grant, how
the heck are you?
Speaker 3: I'm doing well. I am excited to work through some
of these because, as you mentioned, like defining what future
means for one team will be very very different from
what it means for the next one. So excited to
get into it. Excited to make some tough calls because
like I don't I mean, I think the whole point
of this is if we chose the right two guys,
this is gonna be really hard to decide between. So
so interested in seeing where we land and how much
disagreement there may or may not be.
Speaker 2: There were a few teams for us we're even narrowing
down what was the right combination for us to talk
about ended up being a chore.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, that's true, and sometimes we didn't something. In
a couple of cases, we just didn't do.
Speaker 2: That, And so future we're just kind of doing this
relative to what each team's window or arc is right now, correct,
So there's no specific like year amount, but it's like
each team almost has their own individual timeframe. We know
what they're trying to do now, and so we're asking
which player is more important to that end goal? Yep,
And I guess with that we can get started.
Speaker 1: We begin.
Speaker 2: Grant's proprietary alphabet has the Atlanta Hawks going first. The
two players we selected here were Zachary Resiche and Dyson Daniels.
Who is more important of this team's future?
Speaker 1: Grant?
Speaker 3: So, I think I gotta go Resache and tell me
if you feel this way. It's like it has as
much to do with sort of the investment in him,
which is the number one overall pick. That guy sort
of has to matter a little bit more. And I
think like the best version of the Hawks, Like, I
think it's fair to say Daniels is just a better
player right now, even though Resache has has looked pretty
good lately. In particular, I think we know roughly what
Daniels is, and we know roughly like what kind of
ceiling that type of player has, which is like maybe
the best perimeter defender in the league. And the offense
you get from him is is kind of gravy, and
it's never gonna He's you know, not gonna be a
twenty point guy, not gonna be a high volume high
accuracy three point shooter. So it's like he fits in
a bucket that we kind of understand. Reese Sche just
he needs to have a higher ceiling for Atlanta to
really be you know, special at some point in the
near to midterm future. So I think it's just him
for me.
Speaker 1: What do you think I would agree with you?
Speaker 2: I think also a huge part of it too is
when you look at the contract situations. In this case,
Dyson Daniels is coming up on his next deal, Reese
Sche has three more seasons before his next deal would
kick in, and so you combine that with the investment,
and then just with the you know, you kind of
mentioned this with Dyson Daniels's defensive limitations, Recesche might not
have that. It's probably maybe it's too soon to just
say this, but he doesn't seem like someone who has
that superstar upside. But he is the archetype that every
team seems to desire, where it's someone who will hustle
away from the ball, work really hard on defense, and
then in theory like can then also hit three. And
so if the self creation aspect isn't there, the fact
that he checks so many different boxes or could be
called a two way asset where Dice and Daniels. Yeah,
he can do stuff on offense when you look at
the floater, when you look at some of his passing,
but there's going to be like real restrictions there even
as a compliment that Resis Schay in theory should not have.
Speaker 3: And I think too this may not be the case
for every tandem we talk about, but like, because of
Daniel's limitations, it's very important that Reesa Scha hits like
a couple of the key parts of his potential, which
is the shooting in particular, Like if Daniels is going
to be out there, which you would assume they want
both of these guys around, yeah, for several years, Like
Resa Scha is the guy that can make it easier
to have Daniels on the floor, whereas like I don't
know what Daniels would need to do to be like okay,
now we can accommodate Resas say, because Resche is not,
in theory that kind of player. He's the kind of
player that allows you to have quote unquote one way
guys or limited guys because he can fill in a
little litle bit of everything. Daniels is like he's got
a specific job that you need to and because he's
not an elite offensive player or a shooter, it helped
Reesa Shay can help him be like, Okay, well we
can he can be on the floor because we can
get shooting or whatever from a little playmaking from Resa Sje.
Speaker 2: Do you think there's a case because one of the
combos we bandied about was Resi che or Jalen Johnson,
does he have any case to be more important than
Jalen Johnson when you consider the sheer breadth of time
that Jalen Johnson has missed through the first four years
of his career.
Speaker 3: Now, I don't think so. I think wouldn't you wouldn't
you say that if Reesa Jay got to the level
that Johnson has been at when healthy, like the Hawks
would be like ecstatic. Yeah, I think I think Johnson
has gotten to you know, he hasn't made an All
Star Game, but like he's someone you talk about in
that range.
Speaker 1: His all injuries are a bummer. I want to make
that clear.
Speaker 2: But he seemed like he might have been tracking towards
most improved Player last year had he played enough games,
and this year he might have received All Star consideration
had he never got, So that just really sucks who
we got next?
Speaker 3: Grant Boston Celtics here, So this you could have gone
a lot of different ways about it. And you know,
the Celtics are contenders and defending champs, so future is
different for them. Jalen Brown or Derek White? What do
we think?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 2: I think it's Derek White. And I'm not saying it's
because I think that Derek White is the better player
right now, nor do I actually think that he is
going to be the better player in the future. I
just look at Boston's financial situation and there's going to
be a breaking point when it comes to paying the
second apron and the requisite luxury taxes that come with
it along with the team building restrictions that come with it.
Now do I know when they're gonna hit that limit?
I mean, could it be this summer? Like if they
just don't win the title, will they look at this
team and say, Okay, they're gonna cost what probably over
half a billion dollars next year when you factor in
the salary, the repeater tax, and now you're getting into
the territory of the first round picks being frozen. The
limitations of who you can sign, what you can do
in trades, and I think that when they get to
that point, Jalen Brown will be more likely to become
collateral damage just because Derek White is cheaper and he's
probably even more plugging.
Speaker 1: They're both plug in play.
Speaker 2: Derek whit is probably just even more plug and play
when you look at the type of offensive volume he
would need in the immediate I think Jalen Brown is
just more important. Where do you sort of like But
by the way, the other what would make me wrong,
just to undermind my own point is if the Celtics
decide we're gonna wait this out at least another year
and then organically KP comes off the books, you can
figure out what you want to do with Drew Holliday
at that point as well. So there is just a
scenario where it's Jalen Brown, Derek White, and Jason Tatum are.
Speaker 1: The future for the Celtics.
Speaker 3: I would say, I think, like if we disagree, it's
just in how we're viewing the question, which just to
like put a fine, we're asking which of these two
players more important to the team's future, right, Like, if
we make it as simple as possible. That's what we're asking, right,
Like that's yeah, that's it. So I would say, if
I'm Boston, I view the future as three months from now,
because I think that's probably how I would want to
look at it if you're at the level that they're at,
and that is I mean, like now, you can be
extreme with that and you have a Phoenix situation if
you really don't care about the more distant future. But
I think for Boston, because it has won it and
because it is, you know, on the very short list
of teams we would expect to win it this year,
I think Brown is a better player the finals, MVP,
whatever stock you want to put in that, he's not
the team's best player. But like if you they're both
super important, they're both great. I love Derek White. I
just think Jalen Brown is the guy that like, yeah,
he might win them three playoff games in a series. Uh,
And that's all I care about if I'm Boston. Now,
if you throw the financial stuff in, then like yeah, yeah,
then how much of a future does he have with
the team on a five year time horizon? But but
I think I'm I'm we agree about like who they
are as players. I think I'm just looking at a
much shorter window.
Speaker 2: Which is I guess even if you are looking at
it through my window. You could also make the case
that Jalen Brown is more important because it's really gonna
matter what do you get back in a trade for
Jalen Brown, because there's a private importance to that return
as well. So I guess Jalen Brown would be the
right if it was just if the question was I
guess different in saying which player is more likely to
be on this team Let's say in twenty twenty six,
do you think that would you still have the answer
is Jalen Brown.
Speaker 3: Well, that's a pretty different question, I think. And yeah,
I guess it's tied to like the whole future aspect
of it, because if Jalen Brown isn't on the team,
then by definition, he's not part of that future unless
you count the trade return as being like him quote unquote. Uh,
maybe I would change it. Maybe I would change it,
But I think, you know, I'm trying think like I'm Boston,
and I think Boston should just care about June. Basically.
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. I'm they are.
Speaker 2: This is tangentoisly related I think they're gonna be fascinating
to see how long they kind of stick with like
this second Aprin territory, because they're the rare case where
it's they could probably if they let's just say, money
wasn't an object even on me know what it is,
they can be good for a really long time. This
isn't a Phoenix situations, probably not even a Minnesota situation
where you consider how dependent they are. First of all,
they're not as good right now, and then it's not
even an okayc situation where they haven't had to pay
the piper in that sense just yet. So I'm just
gonna be very curious to see, especially of course the
sale of the team that's going to factor into everything
as well. I'm just very intrigued to see how long
they let this ride when it's becoming like prohibitively expensive.
Speaker 1: Just the way that this new CBA is set.
Speaker 3: Up, right, Yeah, this is they'll be the limit testers, really,
I think for like, how smart is it to operate
this way?
Speaker 2: Brooklyn's next Cam Johnson or Nick Claxton Grant who's more
important to this team's future?
Speaker 3: Man, So Cam Johnson is still on the team, which
maybe we should note because everyone assumed he would not
be after the trade deadline. So I think that raises
the question of, like, did Brooklyn just hold out because
it didn't it got a bunch of offers and it
thought Johnson would command more later or were the offers
actually not like as great as they thought they'd be,
Because when we're talking about Johnson, I think we are
talking about like what's his what's the trade return going
to be? Because of where Brooklyn is like in its trajectory,
this is like phase zero of a rebuild. So I
think it might Okay, I think it's Claxton actually, because
I think the best version of Claxton is like a
fringe all defense guy. He blocked like thirty shots in
a ten game span towards the end of February. I
think I think, and because he's under contract, they just
they just re upped with him for longer. I think
I lean Claxton because I think Johnson on the on
the Brown theory might just be gone, and so longer term,
I think maybe Claxton matters more. This is a tough one,
though There's gonna be some of these where it's just
I don't know the right answer.
Speaker 2: See, and I think I ultimately agree with you here,
but I gave a lot of thought to this is
a as of right now anyway, this is a two
year rebuild, and Cam Johnson can fit on any iteration
of the Brooklyn Nets, like it doesn't matter who you
put around him, and just the spacing in general, if
you eventually, I think if we identified their biggest need,
it would be like get a primary playmaker, like some
I'm gonna run the offense in there around a super
young prospect or just the raw prospect in that role.
Having Cam Johnson to me, is way more valuable than
having Nicholas Claxton. However, I look at how good the
Nets were this year, like even after trading Dorny Phinney
Smith and Denishruoterer, they've won too much.
Speaker 1: And so I think they're gonna get to.
Speaker 2: The summer and they're gonna say, like get Cam Johnson
just did, like we can't cause they're not gonna have
as I assume as high lottery odds as they were expecting,
like they probably wanted to be in the top four
or five.
Speaker 1: And now we're kind of wondering.
Speaker 2: We're not even wondering, like Philly just has the power
to out tank the nets at this point.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna lean Claxton as well.
Speaker 2: And I think there's something to the effect of could
he be the base of your entire defense where it's
The answer to me is probably yes.
Speaker 1: Where he does like he's probably.
Speaker 2: Better like switching than doing a lot of the conventional
big man stuff.
Speaker 1: But he does a lot of the conventional big men
stuff just.
Speaker 2: Fine as well. And then the contract situation too. But
I really do think Cam Johnson has a case.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I I struggle with it. I think you
could go either way here.
Speaker 1: Next up is Charlie Grant.
Speaker 3: Uh, this is LaMelo ball or Brandon Miller. What do
you think?
Speaker 1: I think? You know what? I think? The answer to me,
I mean, if we really wanted to put on like
r C suite suits, it's LaMelo. But like putting butts in.
Speaker 2: Seats just you the All Star voting in itself, Like
if you want the Hornets to be a draw even
when they're not great, it's LaMelo.
Speaker 1: But to me it's still LaMelo.
Speaker 2: Because Brandon Miller this year, I don't think that he
necessarily regressed before his injury that fractured right wrist.
Speaker 1: Wrist. I can't say he's fractured right wist. He just
didn't like it felt like lateral, or at least offensively,
it felt lateral. There might have been some subtle improvements
on the defensive, where I thought he was.
Speaker 2: Really good last year. But I look at teams that
are rebuilding or in a transition phase or looking at
a like a long term window more so than like Boston,
like you said, is only going to consider June, who
can be the driving force of everything on offense. And
that's to me, when you're rebuilding, that's priority numero uno.
We don't have any evidence that a healthy LaMelo can't
do that. Yeah, And I honestly, I think we have
enough offense to say that, given the talent around him
and the fact that when he's on the court they
have a league averager better offense, that he can do that.
And so it's a matter of well, can he stay healthy?
So that question is fair. But even if he wanted
to say, and like how I viewed it with Boston,
will Brandon definitely gonna be here for longer, which might
just speak more to the way contracts work. LaMelo Paul
then becomes incredibly important if you think that he's not
long for Charlotte because of what you're gonna get in
return for him. And so I think the answer to
me here is still pretty clearly Lamello.
Speaker 3: I agree. I think it's a question of player types really,
and it's early enough in Miller's career where this is
a risky like tack to take. But Miller is a
complimentary second star. I think maybe he does a Paul
George thing where for a while there he becomes something
more than that. But LaMelo is like the singular driver.
Like if LaMelo is like maximally successful in becoming like
what he should become, He's a primary shot creator and
offensive engine in a good offense, and like that's the
thing you need to have. And Miller, I don't feel like,
is that player type. He has other advantages over LaMelo,
but like LaMelo is, the in theory is the hardest
thing to get and so he just has to be
more important big picture wise.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, So well, I thought I thought maybe you
would say Miller in there, I'm not gonna lie wrong.
We are onto the Chicago Bulls, Modus Bouzellis or Kobe
White Grant who's more important to the future.
Speaker 3: I mean, we'll have to trot out the whole like
how much future does Kobe White have because his contract's
too small to realistically extend, so unrestricted free agency looms.
White has I think been like a couple different times,
like not an All Star, but where you like, we've
at least like thrown his name out there when we're
putting our teams together, good offensive lead guard potentially, like,
but Boozellis just has the flashes this year, the the
like sort of mystery box aspect to and really like
if the Bulls, if I mean, if there's any chance
that the Bulls ever seriously do rebuild and just you know,
turn it over, we're going to have a new core,
We're gonna lose. Like then Bozellis is like is frankly
the same central figure on the whole team, so like
it just has to be him.
Speaker 1: I would agree with you.
Speaker 2: What I'm struggling to because I want to be consistent
is and I just don't think that Kobe White is
going to be on the level of let Us LaMelo,
because we just talked about him as example, if you
do move him, the return is just not going to
be nearly as consequential as it would be if you
were moving someone like LaMelo. So I think the answer
is Buzelli's here, and before coming into the season, I
probably would not have set him even though it's okay,
he's the signal of the future. He was drafted in
the lottery, but like he's just impressed me. I know,
he's pretty raw on offense still, but outside the dunks,
it feels like there's a lot there and he's still where.
I know he's only started playing a ton within the
past like month, and like he's the ninety first percentile
of rimpoint saved for seventy five possessions. Yeah, like this
is someone who does big man stuff and wing stuff
on the defensive end, And so do I think that
if the Bulls are actually rebuilding that he is the
number one guy? No, I think the goal is to
get maybe one or two players in here who have
higher ceilings than him, for sure, But as of right now,
it's like you said, it's what other options do you have?
The only reason I think the answer can be Kobe
White is if you think that the Bulls are going
to use i'll say short circuit themselves. But if they're
gonna try and accelerate this process and they want to
be good next season, because then I end beyond, because
then Kobe White probably needs to be the answer.
Speaker 1: Cleveland's up. All right?
Speaker 3: Oh, I love the picture here for this one. It's
tough to find those two together. Jared Allen friend of
the pod and DeAndre Hunter. New guy could be a
friend of the pod, just has to has to. We
have to slight him first, and maybe we will. Right now,
what do you think?
Speaker 2: Maybe this is counterintuitive because you have Evan Mobley, but
I think it's Jared Allen. I just there's part of
me that wonders, like, if come playoff time, could we
look at it and say, like, actually, Max Strews is
the better kind of finishing touch to the core for
than DeAndre Hunter, Because yes, DeAndre Hunter will give you
more on defense, but is it the same And I
think he's better suited to guard the four specifically too,
if you wanted to play with one big. And so
that gets into another interesting discussion and of well, what's
the future of the Cavs look like on the court
at their core lineup specifically, but just between the shooting,
the playmaking, the off ball movement. I think I lean
Max Struce over Hunter, which is why I then lean
Jared Allen over Hunter.
Speaker 1: That's how I got to that answer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's hard because like in both cases you'd
say there's a guy in house that I mean maybe
should just be playing ahead of him. And that's so
going in one Big Looks and Mobiley's playing over Allen
is case one and case two is the Struce or
I don't know, some tie Jerome like if you want
to play whatever, like over Hunter. So I think because
Alan still seems to matter so much in the two
Big Looks that like, frankly, you probably are gonna need
against Boston and against like I don't know, if you
run up against some other teams, like you're gonna need
that dimension the basically.
Speaker 2: Karl Anthony Towns of Mitchell Robinson that right, everything I
think it's Alan. And maybe part of that too is
like Hunter has only been this good over you know,
at once ever, and that's over the last few months,
and their injury concerns with him, so like how much
like future stock do you want to put in him.
That's not to say he he might be the perfect
piece like that's why we loved his acquisition so much.
But Alan has been this for a long time and
should be for however many years, the Caves decide they
want to stick around, stick with him. So it's it's Alan,
but it's it's it's tough because like again, they're in
house guys that you'd say, like, well, doesn't the best
version of the Cabs just have Mobile at the five?
Speaker 3: Like maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 2: There's I also think that given our track record on
Jared Allen takes, that they needs to be Jared Allen
for posterity.
Speaker 3: We owe this to him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but well.
Speaker 2: Because we we like lampoon to the contract, not the player,
but why they pay him with Mobile. And then remember
after last year's playoffs, like all that stuff that came
out about Jared Allen not players, like why would he
ever sign an extension?
Speaker 1: He's gonna definitely want out.
Speaker 2: The signs an extension, and so the answer needs to
be jarried down. If this had been I'm just curious.
Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland, I.
Speaker 3: Think I think to be consistent because as much as
I've lauded Garland this year, I think Mitchell is still
the better player in terms of like, at least in
the games, I think that will matter the most. So
I probably would have gone Mitchell. But that's do you
I mean, do you agree if if you go Garland,
it's like, yeah, I get.
Speaker 2: It, I go Garland because the Calves are sort of
similar to OKC, except the pecking order is probably a
little bit fuzzier. Here is that I'm still yes, they're
a contender, but this isn't Boston to where it's oh,
you just need to look at it through June, and
even Boston needs to consider longer term expensive But the
Calves are still their core four is I mean, three
of their four players are like really young and like Darius, Garland,
ev and Mobiley specifically, and so I view them those
two together as just the future of this team. And
so it just depends on which is something why you
go with that duo. This one was more interesting because
you don't want to have to like juggle that push
and pull there. Because if it's the short term, I
do think it's Mitchell just the defensive attention he draws
in the types of shots he can hit. But if
you're trying to look at the Calves through the lens
of what makes them sustainable. It does almost feel like
Darius Garland's younger is Donovan Mitchell like going to stay
around as long as Garland is, And so that's why
I would lean Darius.
Speaker 3: And maybe this is a good time to make this point,
Like we didn't include Evan Mobley because we're trying to
have like a tough choice and if it's if Mobley's involved,
we just pick Mobley and move on. So, like there'll
be other cases where you might say, well, why don't
this guy? It's like, well, because what will we talk about?
It's too easy to say Mobiley he's the most important guy? Yeah,
I mean, is he one of the ten most important
players in the league in terms of its future? Probably?
Speaker 2: I mean, look, you could argue that he's the most
important player on the team right now when you're.
Speaker 3: Getting right, and if you're extending that out over several years,
it's like there's no conversation. It's Mobley.
Speaker 2: Is the Dallas Mavericks, which one of the players we picked.
I couldn't get a picture of them together, so apologies,
but Derek Lively or Max Christie, because I do could
we start with this first?
Speaker 1: Unless is Derek Lively versus.
Speaker 2: Anthony Davis better when you're looking at it, like and
what's the future in Dallas? When Nico Harrison thinks long
term is what?
Speaker 1: And by the way, he's not wrong.
Speaker 2: We've been kind of making fun of him because he
deserves it. But like these NBA windows are just with
the like Oklahoma City in Boston so far proving to
be the only exceptions. Like these title windows are like
three four years a long time now in today's NBA.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean an interesting one might like Kyrie or
Anthony Davis would have been would have been a high
level interesting one. But like so just we're going Look,
we picked Lively and Christie because I think there's a
lot to like unpack, some of which is, like, what
is a Derek Lively. We've talked about this without Luca,
Like offensively, do you get enough juice there for him
to be like a true plus on both ends? I
think probably just because he can be an offensive rebounder
and who knows what else he might add to his game.
Christy has been really good since coming over, like way
over forty percent from three, is doing some playmaking off
the dribble. It has great size, on the wing good defender.
So it's kind of like the do you want an
all defense center or do you want like maybe a
premium young two way wing that like is perfect against
the Jason Tatums and Jalen Brown's and go down the list.
I think I still lean lively because I because I
think I just think the world of his defensive potential
and so like, I'm gonna go with the guy that
might have a superpower over Christy, who I think is
probably not gonna be a high volume on ball like
kind of guy, so he falls more into the role
playing like Reesa Schet should love to get like to
the Christie level. I think if we're talking about Christy today,
who knows if that's sustainable. So I lean lively just
because I think the defenses is too valuable.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you hit the two points that I would have made.
It's just he is someone who if you told me
he won a Defensive Player of the Year award, it
would not shock me. I'm not gonna predict it, but
it wouldn't shock me. And then the bigger thing for
me is like we would need to see way more
on ball stuff out of Max Christy because even now
like he's not the most self efficient efficient like self starter,
and he's not the best passer either, so we just
don't have the evidence you could counter that. As you
mentioned at the top, they're like, well, what is Derek
Lively without Luca because Luca's making Jackson Hayes look super
useful right now. So but I just think the defense
from Derek Love is like that has nothing to do
with with Luka Doncic. So I think the answer is him.
Would you have gone between Kyrie ride who would you
have gone with? I think Nico Harrison kind of pretty
clearly assigned Anthony Davis that label, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I it would be hard though, because you know, Kyrie
does like I've you know, on the LaMelo thinking of
like it's so hard to find a guy that can
just be your offensive engine. I think maybe because of
the eight, Like I think Anthony Davis can like slowly
decline and still be like a pretty close to like
you know, I mean, he's not a top five guy anymore,
but he can play that way sometimes, whereas Kyrie, as
he gets older, I think it just gets too hard
for a smaller guard to be at that level. So
I probably would have gone Davis, I might go.
Speaker 2: Kyrie, and I don't know if it's just because I mean,
like he can be a free agent this summer, so
doesn't that kind of give him more control? Because what
is let's say Kyrie left. Do you think that changes
Dallas his vision post Luca at all? Or do you
think if this really was more built around let's just
be huge, physical, versatile on defense and try and like
really muck up a lot of like some of these
offensive teams. Like looking at the West specifically, you have
I mean, okay, seeing Denver are probably like the two
elites there, but even like maybe a Golden State.
Speaker 3: Well, I think it depends on how you're like how
you're looking at it, because yeah, if you take Davis
off this team, Lively and gafferd are still there, so
you're gonna be you know, you're gonna get away with
it up front, Take Kyrie, this team like who's creating shots.
It's just so like replaceability party for the when Jayden
Hardy's finally going to replaceability favors Kyrie. I do think
what we haven't really discussed is just like the sheer
weight of what Anthony Davis needs to do to make
Dallas fans forget for even half a second about like
who he's here because of like and who he's here
in exchange for so like if we're gonna like rope
that element of it in, then Davis is just like sorry,
the weight of like a generation of fans like is
on your shoulders because you need to be the guy
that you know, obviously, I don't think they're gonna win
a title and he's not going to lead him there,
but like you got to give him something because you
know it's not fair to him. But he's the guy
that's here and Luke's not, and that just makes his
role super important. From like a box office fans sentiment,
you know, kind of standpoint.
Speaker 1: Are you ready for some breaking news? Great? Are you're
sitting down? This is good the Toronto Raptors. This is tough.
Dave Wave, PJ. Tucker. He's eligible to join a playoff team.
It's before March. First.
Speaker 2: Congratulations to whoever winds up with him, which I'm assuming
will happen after we're done recording this podcast. For now,
we are on too. I kind of forgot that he
was still on the Raptors payroll. I'm not gonna lie
like got it wasn't necessarily sure where.
Speaker 1: He ended up.
Speaker 2: We're onto the Denver Nuggets, Grant, Peyton Watson or Michael
Porter Junior.
Speaker 1: Who's more important? And did I hot? Was this your team?
Did I just hijacket?
Speaker 3: No? It's fine. No, I gave you the that doesn't
I don't. I can't remember Dan, I can't remember thirty
seconds ago. I'm gonna go MPJ. I think one, because
I'm gonna start to fall into some some grooves that
I'm carving here. One has a superpower, just a phenomenal
shooter on a team that like desperately needs what he does.
I think if there were no Aaron Gordon, then maybe
Peyton Watson would be like have a stronger case. And Two,
if the Nuggets are gonna do anything to change the roster,
it's gonna be by trading MPJ. So like whether he's
there or not, there's a little bit of Jalen Brown
aspect to it too, Like he's the route to I think,
fundamentally changing the team if they decide that's necessary. And
he's also just indispensable because you take his shooting out
of the mix, then like there's just nobody the defenses
are freaking out chasing around off the ball.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the answer Michael is Michael Porter Junior
as well, especially because this version of Michael Porter Junior
where it's oh, put pressure on the rim, creating some
of your own shots, like I saw, I still think
it's him, And I didn't even really give the trade
stuff much consideration, but I kind of like this team
when you're looking at Peyton Watson's upside and could you say, okay,
like the team only gonna get more expensive Christian Brown's
extension eligible. They just paid Gordon and Murray, you have
Jokic NPJ is gonna be on a new deal soon,
Like how long of a I guess it depends on
what type of runway you're giving this team, but I
think because of how they're using Peyton Watson on offense,
the answer almost has to be Michael Porter Junior to me,
Like they haven't really tried to test out, like, oh,
it's Peyton Watson, like do some more ball handling and
we he has not shown enough as a shooter to say,
not that he would ever replace Michael Porter Junior. But
I think the Nuggets because reasonably decide like, well, we
prefer like athleticism on the defensive end around Yokic, because
if they get moving away from the ball, we don't
care as much as honestly, I think they've telegraphed that
a couple times already anyway. So but I think the answer,
especially with the way that he's been playing, has to
be Michael Porter, who's turned what over the past three
seasons and like the most one of the most durable
players in.
Speaker 3: The right Yeah, I would have thought, I think too,
like to be consistent from my my Boston Jalen Brown
thing is like in trade stuff aside, like Denver's trying
to win a championship now and and Porter just matters
more in that effort. So if we shrink what future means,
then it's Porter quite easily for me.
Speaker 2: Does Porter have a K like does it? Is there
any combination like would you pick Porter over Gordon or
Porter over Murray?
Speaker 3: No? I don't think so. I think I mean no,
I don't think so. I think Murray as the second
secondary creator is more critical than porter shooting, and I
think Gordon's defense and versatility is like also more critical
than the shooting. If we're just talking like over you know,
between now and the finals.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be different if like Denver's back, because I
think you could say Peyton Watson might be able to
replace a lot of what Eric Gordon does, but like
you're not going to replace the backup five minutes that
Eric Gordon can log when it matters most and among
other things of course. But yeah, that ended up being
a little bit easier than I thought it was gonna be.
Speaker 1: Who got next?
Speaker 3: We got the Pistons, And we may go off script
here a little bit, but let's discuss Asar Thompson and
Jaden Ivy first.
Speaker 2: In theory, the answer should be Jade and Ivy, because
what do the Detroit Pistons need the most is like
that sect that the scorer who's not Kake Cunningham, the
passer who's not Kake Cunningham. And I think that stuff
in a vacuum trounces. Look at what Asar Thompson can
do on the defensive end. I'm still picking Asar Thompson
because now we've seen even more of what he can
do as a playmaker. If you want to get into oh,
he has an extra year left on his rookie scale.
But you could also say j and Ivy's not as
redundant with anyone on the roster as a sar Thompson
might be redundant to Ron Holland when you're looking at
their limitations on the offensive end specifically, I would still
go I, And this is might just be to how high.
Speaker 1: I am on Aasar Thompson.
Speaker 2: I just think he's the second most important player on
the rap the Pistons moving forward, so I would pick
him over j and Ivy. But because of j andn
Ivy's shot making capabilities, at least so far, he has
a very clear pet. Like if you said Jay and Ivy,
I totally understand where you'd be coming from.
Speaker 3: So I think for me it almost comes down to,
like I understand there's a theory of the Pistons now
based on how they've played lately, where it's Kid Cunningham
and a hillacious defense, and you can win a lot
of games that way, and I think that that gets
you into the mid forties and maybe higher slightly higher
than that, like win total wise, But I think if
you really, if you want to go beyond that, then
what you would need is someone like Ivy to have
a ceiling a little higher than Ivy seems to have
like that type of player, like maybe, like I don't
think Ivy is going to be a guy whose overall
offensive game gets to the point where he's like, oh,
that guy is an All star. That's kind of what
the Pistons would need. I think if you want to
go fifty plus wins and we're talking you know, your
first or second seed in the conference type of thing.
So if I'm putting like a lower, more realistic ceiling
on it, cade Cunningham plus defense favors Thompson because Thompson
is a guy I think short of like dominant big
men who can be the reason your defense is like
a top ten outfit, and anything he gains offensively over
the years is just gravy. So if does that make sense,
Like if you believe Ivy has a higher ceiling than
I do, then you probably should pick Ivy or you know,
like that type of player would be the key, like
we keep doing the Celtics, but it's just in my head,
like a J Brown to a Tatum like that kind
of secondary guy. I don't think Ivy's that, So it
has to be Thompson.
Speaker 2: I I one of the rebukes that I would say
to the two of us, is are we too stuck
in the present, because I guess a lot of my
I we might just be lower on Ivy than the consensus.
But even as he was when he was healthy and
had adapted more to this roster, this role, did you
ever feel like their offense was optimized at that point?
Speaker 3: No, it was almost like, Okay, I can see the
outlines of how this might work. Like he's okay with
kid because he's making just enough catch and shoot threes
type of thing, and like when he's out there by
himself with no kid, he's not quite good enough. You
could you could sort of imagine it, but I don't know.
I don't think I fully saw the vision.
Speaker 2: And even just there's no support of like Jay and
no Ivey without Kaid, because I think part of what
you would want in that like set up is, oh,
he can like run things effectively when Kate's not on
the court, and we just don't have the evidence that
that's gonna happen either. Again, maybe we're prisoner of the
moment there, but I think so from the both of us.
Now they're four youngsters like of the non cunning hand
persuasion Jaye and Duran Ron Holland, Jade and Ivy SR.
Speaker 1: Thompson.
Speaker 2: How would you rank those guys in terms of their
importance to Detroit's future.
Speaker 3: So Duran is the one that's so tough for me
because if if you're the center on a team that's
playing really great defense over a decent stretch, like at
some point you have to we have to get off
my priors of like I just don't think Duran like
process is fast enough and is capable of being the
centerpiece of a really good defense. So it's it's still
a star first, obviously, I think I would probably have
Duran second. And that's while acknowledging like I just he's
not going to stretch. I don't know how much it
matters that he shows flashes of passing. I just am
sort of starting to buy into he can be good
enough defensively to be a long term piece. And then
I guess it's like Ivy Holland, just as Holland as
we just haven't seen enough. I don't have a strong
enough opinion on on like what he's going to be,
and there's a possibility he overlaps with either Ivy or
Thompson and just isn't as good as either of them.
So I don't know what what do you do with Duran?
Where are you on him? Now? I have him, I
have him last, Okay, tell me why, because I don't
think that's a I don't think that's necessarily the wrong
place to put him.
Speaker 2: Look, their third in point slot per possession since January first,
and they're tenth now overall in the season, So you
have to take the defense seriously. They are better defensively
when Jalen Durn's off the court. And I think for me,
we've definitely seen the flashes of what he can do
even away from the basket, around the basket, but I
just don't know, like we've never seen it. It feels
like for more than let's say, two months at a time.
And if you, I guess, if you think that's enough, okay, fine,
But I don't like he's not an A plus rim protector.
He's not like even a deterrent like where like these
players are veering away from drives, pistons are like opponents
are shooting better at the rim when Jalen Durn's on
the floor. So I think that I don't know that
he's necessarily the benefactor of like We'll look at some
of the perimeter talent, like including a Star Thompson down around.
I'm looking at the look at the improvement that Kate
Cunningham has made defensively this year, So I have him last,
I would have.
Speaker 1: I would go Asar Thompson.
Speaker 2: I would put Jade and Ivy because even if you
think he's not gonna be like the number two or
that player we're talking about, you want to slide alongside
like what Dennis Shooter is doing now, but you want
that player to be way better than Dennis Shooter. You're
probably trading Jade and Ivy as part of the package
for that player, So I would keep him there as well.
Then I'll go Ron Holland, which I think is like
with you and we we said this, maybe it was
on the rookie All rookie teams we were talking about.
I don't have a strong impression of Ron Holland just yet,
but there's still the mystery box appeal there and there's
like there's limitations on offense, there's also feel as well,
And so I go Ron Holland third, and then Jalen
durn fourth. But even that that could be counterintuitive because
do you see and we've seen it some this year,
but like, do you see like a reasonable pathway to
Detroit playing Asar Thompson and Ron Holland a bunch that
like they're they're they're a staple together And so if
the answers no, then like maybe I should be readjusting
my order. But it would be a sarr J and
Ivy one and two for me for sure.
Speaker 3: That's the hard part because of those three of Thompson,
Holland and Duran. What I what I feel pretty good
about is like all three. I don't think just because
of this the shooting, like if if if Duran were
someone who could space a little bit, maybe you get
away with two more wings that don't really space. It's
it's yeah, I don't know. I have such a hard
time with Duran. He's been one of the most like confounding.
He's still he's still really young for his experience level.
He's got he's got the frame, he's got the athleticism.
There's just like a lot to like, uh, but there's
a lot not to like. I think I think maybe
this is more for me, you know, Ivy, Ivy's player type.
I think maybe I'm not in love with unless he
just dramatically expands his game or becomes a super efficient shooter.
And then Holland is like, I just I don't know yet.
You know, he plays really hard. I like a lot
of what he does on both ends, but I don't.
I don't have more than that.
Speaker 2: For the most part, I know Darren's about to get paid. Uh,
and then Ivy will be extension eligible.
Speaker 1: These are good problems to have, at least next up
the goal. This is made good.
Speaker 2: But if I did steal one from you, at least
it allowed me to throw this one to you. The
Golden State Warriors Jonathan Kaminga or Brandon Pajemski.
Speaker 3: H, I don't it's surprised.
Speaker 1: I don't know if this was Grant Hughes.
Speaker 3: It's not that hard for me. I I think Pajemski
can be a key player on a good team.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: And maybe a little more than that. I think he's
just gonna be limited by athleticism, by size, by his
ability or lack thereof to create his own shots. UH.
I think Kaminga is still he's been talking about confounding like.
I think Cominga's size and and athleticism and like has
a couple real offensive knacks that you just like you
have them or you don't in terms of like his
downhill burst and his lift and his quickness for a
player that size, like that's just you know, ninety ninth
percentile stuff. I think it's Kaminga. I think it just
sort of it sort of has to be because he's
also sort of a real pivot point player, not just
this season when he eventually does come back supposed to
happen on this road trip from his ankle injury, and
then you have the huge decision on him this summer,
where is he your fourth guy that you're gonna pay
thirty plus million? And if he's not, what are you
getting for him? In best case scenario sign and trade?
And it's not just he takes another offer sheet you
don't match, you get nothing. So he's a pivot point
in that regard to pa Jemski's this is his second year.
They don't have to make a decision yet, and the
ceiling's just lower for Pajemski floors higher, ceilings lower. So
that's that's where I land on Cominga.
Speaker 2: So I would go with Pods and the free agency
with Kaminga doesn't actually bother me. Too much, because I
don't think they're gonna sign and trade him just because
base share compensation would make that all sorts of complicated,
and they're not gonna let him walk for nothing. And
it's like, I don't view it as I guess as
big of a pivot point as you do. I more
appreciate that there's a median outcome from Brandon Pajemski where
he's still super useful without needing to be a featured
part of the offense. And I don't know, Uh, this
is my interpret John Thinkuminga's highs have been incredibly high,
and like I probably don't give like his skills when
he's working off the dribble, putting pressure on the rim
when he is on, Like I'm probably not giving him
enough credit there, But I don't know like how scalable
he is to and won't get the answer like how
he fits next to Jimmy Butler. But you have Butler
talking about like, yeah, he can really guard man and
I have not seen that consistently enough And so you're
not plugging play to me at either end of the floor.
It's cool that you have this ninety nine percentile outcome
of stardom but like, I would rather the guy who
I think can be a key player and we had
to be rich from just Scord said that Projeensy's going
to be the fourth best player on a really good team.
I would rather take that guarantee than like, oh, Kaminga
could be this. And part of that is I guess
my own bias. I don't think Kaminga could be that
because I just haven't seen it right.
Speaker 3: No, it's kind of like if we were just hey,
we got the we I'm viewing it this way. We
have the number one pick in the draft. Do you
want the guy the four year he wasn't this, but
just go with it, the four year senior who thinks
the game great. You know this guy is going to
be maybe a starter for a long time, like maybe
even a plus start, if certainly by plus minus he's
gonna be a big time plus starter. He's never going
to be a star. Or do you want the guy
that might be out of the league in three years
or also might be a five time All Star. And
so I'm just going like, give me the upside and
I'll just grit my teeth and hope he hits it,
because that is really what the Kaminga thing is, And I.
Speaker 2: Guess what's interesting here for you to say that then though,
because of the way you talked about Boston, shouldn't Golden
State Steph Curry's not getting a younger they just traded
for Jimmy Butler.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't they shouldn't the future be the same for them.
Speaker 3: I think that the if Kaminga can be, I think
Kaminga's capacity even this season to be a ceiling razor
is higher than Pajemski's is, you know what I mean,
Like I forget the whole Like what's he gonna look
like at twenty seven or twenty five. It's like there's
a version of the Warriors that is just better. If
Kaminga pops, then it is this year than it is
if pajemskis. Because Pajemski right now is playing about as
well as he can play, I think, and he's playing
very well. I just think the ceiling even in a
short term situation, is higher with with Kaminga being the
best version of himself.
Speaker 1: We talked about this last.
Speaker 2: Week, so I don't want to believe it, but if
you had zero in on one thing, then like what
is the key to Johnathan Kaminga coming back being reintegrated.
It's like, oh wow, he's elevated the ceiling of it.
It's like, what is the like, what is the part
of his game that needs to be most consistent or
even just augmented relative to the the team looks with
Jimmy Butler now.
Speaker 3: And this will feel like too like broad of an answer,
but I would say leveraging his athleticism to like benefit
the team in ways that don't involve scoring. So that
means like being the on ball guy that because if
you don't think, I don't. Butler's a good defender, but
it's like he needs Cominga needs to be like the
Wiggins role defensively, where it's like go get Katim, go
get Luca. Rebounding, there's no reason Cominga can't be like
an elite rebounder, especially now when.
Speaker 2: It's pretty clear their core lineups are never going to
have a real center in it.
Speaker 3: Right running the floor, you're hey, guess what, You're also
faster than everyone that's on the floor with you, like
all that kind of stuff, because I don't think, and again,
this is the central like issue with him, is he
wants to be on the ball creating his own shots
and that just like now that Butler's there too, Like
that just isn't it? Maybe in spurts, but he's got
to be the guy that dominates the game athletically in
ways that and be like a a scorer who is
scoring off of like hard cuts, running the floor and
offensive rebounds and stuff. Any spacing he provides would be great,
especially because of the lineups they're gonna play. But you
know what I mean, like that kind of thing. It
just leverage your athletic use what you got, you know,
to be helpful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually really good.
Speaker 2: I probably would have just defaulted to the cookie cutter
three point shooting because now you have Jimmy Butler and
Draymond Green and your most important lineup. The bonus one
here might be the more important one. Quinton Post or
Steph Curry.
Speaker 1: It's more important.
Speaker 3: I think Quinn Post is probably shooting a higher percentage
from three. So you've you've sorted out Dan, do you.
Speaker 2: We were talking about how numb we can beat to
Steph Curry. You know, he drops fifty six against the
Magic the other night. You know, he tied the single
highest game true shooting percentage for anyone who dropped fifty
five in a game.
Speaker 3: On it felt like it felt like he couldn't miss
for really on tough, tough shots too, for a lot
of those. Do you know My takeaway was when I
like saw that, which is, oh he didn't like he
didn't do that already, Like he was right, Yeah, I
can't believe somebody else. Well, it was like peak Harden.
So that's the only other guy that could.
Speaker 1: Get Glenn Rice fifth.
Speaker 3: How about that cold shoot it?
Speaker 1: We're onto the Houston Rockets. Who we got there?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is another one we could have gone like
five deep. Maybe this is uh A'men Thompson or Alburn
shangoun what do we got?
Speaker 2: Am I being too caught up in the hype if
I say it's Amen Thompson, I don't think so because
I think as of right now, Shane gun is more
important if you want to orchestrate a more well rounded offense.
But like that offense isn't necessarily great with him doing that,
and so then give me everything else that Amen Thompson
already is plus what we still think that he could be.
And that's I'm not taking in. Imagine if he hits
like corner threes or something. I'm just more so like
we've seen some of the mid range floater stuff. We
know what he could do defensively. I don't know if
he'll ever be the capslock for general, who is running
these more deliberate sets and if you want to go
heavy pick and roll, I don't think. I don't think
he'll ever be that guy. But like he could definitely
be a y honest level of playmaker of getting going downhill,
whether it's with or without a ball screen.
Speaker 1: So I think it's him.
Speaker 3: I think it's weird to say this because like there's
definitely such stuff right now that Thompson cannot do, which
is to say, like shoot accurately. But Shanngoon I feel
like like if the if, the if the spacing is
never a threat, then I just don't know if he's
a good enough defensively to get away from being a paint.
You know, I don't know. I think it's Thompson. I
just feel like Shanguon has limitations that make it a
little harder to see him as a core piece of
a great team, which is tough because like he's the
core piece of a really really good team today and
he's in his early twenties, and so like what why
are we for clothes? Does that you know what I mean?
Do you just I just see, like, A, there's just
a few things that he's not going to be great
at that. Maybe I think he's better than like Sabonis
right now, but like it's the same kind of thought
of where it's like, yeah, he's a great passer, he
can be a hub, he can score on the post,
but he's not going to space and I don't love
him defending anything but centers, and so like where does
that leave you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's but it feels almost insulting to not pick
him when I mean that he made the coaches picked
him as the All Star of this team. Interesting that
you're just like kind of casually saying Shangun is better
than Sabonis. I don't know that I'm there defensively, sure,
but I would be curious see what Sabonis looks like
if he had the talent in front of him defensively
that H has right now. Because I think Sabonis is
a scorer I think is way better overall is a score.
Speaker 3: You don't think zach Lavine and DeMar Derozen are comparable
to Tari Eason and Aman Thompson and Dylan Brooks. Defensively,
who would you.
Speaker 1: Have picked if I if we went with Reed Shepherd
and Jabari Smith?
Speaker 3: Oh wow, Uh, if I gotta if I'm gonna be
consistent with like the floor ceiling thing, I think I
might have gone Shepherd. I assume you would have gone Shepherd.
I think Smith's gonna be a great starter, awesome defender,
but is gonna be a spot shooter for the most part.
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, we know how I feel about
Reachepper Reacht.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you're looking at this season, there is
no like the answer is Jabbari Smith junior. But you also,
if you think Shanguon's going to be around long term,
anything Thompson's going to be around long term, you get
into some interesting like is it Jabari.
Speaker 1: Smith or shang Gun at that point.
Speaker 2: I know a lot of people framed it coming into
the season, Oh, it's Tari or Jabbari, And it's like, well,
it's not really that, because Tari can play more positions,
and I think even as good as he is, it
doesn't it feel like because of what Jabari Smith can
theoretically do offensively that if you were negotiating extensions which
you will be not you, but the Rockets will be
this summer. Don't you think Jabari will end up getting
more in an extension than Tari Easton, who's just considered
more of a specialist for sure.
Speaker 3: I think I think you just it's it's a fit thing.
One like if you if you let Smith get to
a point where somebody else is offering him. It's like
the field of teams that he makes sense for is
thirty and and they would all view him as a
potential starter, and Easton is just he's not He doesn't
have the the true like three aspect and that I
don't know, Like I think Eastan's really good, but I
just he's.
Speaker 2: A role guy, right Yeah, Indiana Pacers, we have this
is the this is the obligatory one.
Speaker 1: Jaris Walker, benedicmathern Uh.
Speaker 3: I think it's matherin that's a short for this year.
And then you know, look, I think it's it's well documented.
I just I don't I don't love the Matheren player type.
I think he is is not like a helpful team
offensive player. He's an incredible individual scorer. I just don't
like the fit of him in the offense generally just
the way he plays. He slows things down too much,
like all that stuff. Not a not an elite defender.
I still go with him just because Walker is like
what is what is?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 3: What's jaris Walker gonna do?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: What type of player is this? If I had a
great sense of that, maybe I'd have a different opinion.
Speaker 1: I just don't.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: And the pathway to him being that player on India
is who does he how many people does he have
to outplay at this point? So if you want to
view him through terms of like a wing forward, it's
because you've gotta be better than topping and we knowam
is gonna lock a ton of minutes at the four.
And then it's well like Nie Smith has wing minutes
and Mathren has done more and with his wing minutes
as well. So I do think the answer is mathin
pretty easily right now. If I would have said Andrew
Nemhart and Myles Turner, which I did, when from our
list of choices, who would you have gone with there?
Speaker 3: Hmm, that's tough. Like so the free agency aspect that
we assume Turner is going to be back, I.
Speaker 2: Think way that would but that would be the pathway
that jars Walker becoming more important than Mathron is. If
Turner leaves, you have to slide see aakam and topping
up basically, or you're just you know, you're inserting like
minimum big X here.
Speaker 1: Uh So, like that would be the path to Walker,
like being able to have more minutes in the front court.
Speaker 3: I think it's got to be Turner just because of
the spacing he provides and the rim protection. Nemhard though,
is such a good fit with Halliburton. That's why he's
you know, taking over a starting job because of the defense,
because of the facilitation. I just think I think it's
I think Turner does enough things that like you just
can't get in replacements that I think it's probably him.
Speaker 2: Isn't it We were to use the word numb again.
Isn't it weird how we're numb to this idea of
like the floor spacing rim protectors, Like, yeah, everyone wants
one of those, but there's actually still so few, right,
It's like so we tossed those terms around, like you
could just find those guys anywhere, and you still can't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I'd like it if Turner were a
little better defensively and a little better of a rebounder,
but he truly is this a stretch five that you
know can block shots? And there's just like who are
we still throwing brook Lopez in there? And then who
else is it?
Speaker 2: So I actually think the answer is nam Hard, okay,
because you mentioned it alrighty, because of how perfect the
fit is next to Halliburton. And I think even you
can say he shoulders even an outsize role defensively because
of what the Pacers look like like the overall wing
defense outside of Neesmith. But even if you get a
better wing defender in there, like you still like he
is so perfect next to Halliburton?
Speaker 1: Who is your future?
Speaker 2: And I guess I'm also I don't think they'll ever
do this, but like could they look at it and
say we're getting too expensive. We're gonna sign a cheaper
big and Siakam, we'll play more five minutes and like
that they might view Turners more expendable where it's yes,
is it harder to replace Turner's archetype than Nemhard's. Probably,
but Nemhard is more important to I think your most
important player, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1: But so that's why I'd pick him.
Speaker 3: No, that that's totally fair.
Speaker 1: Give me the Clippers Grant, duh.
Speaker 3: You can have him James Harden or Kawhi Leonard.
Speaker 1: I abstain.
Speaker 3: I use it beats the Zobats.
Speaker 2: So I think, oh, it's Kawhi Leonard. He's under contract
for longer, and I think that that kind of defines
their direction more than anything else. Is if Kawhi Leonard's available,
if we said he just play he's healthy for the
rest of this year, you might say that the Clippers
have what I mean, I think they do actually right now,
have top seven championship ods or something. Grant, So he's
your line. You're not gonna say that if he's not Hell,
he's your line to title contention, as scrappy as they've
been without him. But then if you're looking to pivot,
James Harden doesn't do anything for you, like, yeah, he
might leave in free agency if he opts out or could.
I'm sure you could move him, but you're not gonna
get a haul. I'm not saying you're gonna get a
Hall for Kawhi Leonard, but as if the trade deadline
was today and you were moving both of these players.
Don't you think you would still get more for Kawhi
Leonard than James Harden, even with the longer contract and
the questions about his health. And I hate I'll make
it clear. I think it was kind of ridiculous that
James Harden made the All Star Game this year. But
I do think that James Harden the durability, the stuff
that he provides that no.
Speaker 1: One else does on this team. He's been good. So
I just want to before we have the Hardened stands
getting angry.
Speaker 3: No, there aren't a lot of guys that could have
done for this Clippers team the specific things that they
needed that Harden has done so far. I think there's
there's no dispute about that. Just like a super high
usage like he's gonna make the offense as good as
it can be with what's there. I still if I'm
giving up trade packages, I'm giving up more for Leonard.
Uh Like Harden, just we've talked about it. Hardened just
is someone that he he the fit is tough. If
you have another real star, you're gonna play a certain way,
You're gonna have all these concessions that he you know,
he creates that you've got to cover for which the
defense has this year. That's that's been impressive. You know,
the injuries are just gonna be what they are. But like,
I don't know, if you're betting on durability over the
next three years, I think it's quite really that much
bigger of a risk than Harden is, given the mileage
of the age all that stuff. Probably, but I still
go Kawhi there.
Speaker 2: This one was maybe the least interesting team to pick
a combo from. I thought about Norman Powell versus Zubots,
but that's like it's Zuba just you want the All
Defense center. I was trying to think of another one,
Like if you really wanted Norman Powell or Bogdanovich, I
think you would still go with Norman Palell, just but
you have to based off this season.
Speaker 1: Could I ask you, here's one Norman Poweller James Harden.
Is that better one?
Speaker 3: And then I think it's hardened weirdly because I think
we both probably would have put Powell on the All
Star team over him. But I think Harden is just
such a He's just more of the engine type that
we're talking pretty short time horizon for both of these guys,
because they're both you know, at stages of their careers
where you're not thinking about twenty thirty. I think it's
probably Harden, even though like I don't know, Powell's arguably
been better.
Speaker 2: He's more plug and play though, and so it's just like,
I don't know what time Rison they're working with, because
when you willingly let Paul George leave, I'm not that
it turned out so far that it looks like it
was the right decision, But what was the play? What
was their Their plan was not to, yeah, we're gonna
be like one of the four best teams in the
West and contend that was not the plan. No, the
Lakers grant another team that wasn't really interesting. You can't
put it's just Luca's the answer to everybody. But given
the window within which they're operating, Lebron James or Austin Reeves.
Speaker 3: Yeah this you could overthink this. I think it's just Lebron.
We were talking off air like he's playing like a
top fifteen, top twenty guy right now. Sometimes looks better
than that. Austin Reeves has been great. I'm really glad that,
like I never sold any Reeves stock. I thought the
contract he signed was insanely cheap.
Speaker 1: People thought it was bad, right, Well, who thought it was?
Speaker 3: It's crazy. He is capable of being a one or
a two, good shooter, can distribute, like just belongs on
a good team. But it's Lebron, Like, it's just still Lebron,
Like he's he's the guy that will be running the offense.
I mean, well, Luca's there, but like he's just he's
just a better player now, and the Lakers care about
now if you want to stretch it out and be like, Okay,
Lebron's gone, like or like Lebron just won't be here
as long as Reeves is and we're caring about like
who fits with Luca, then well yeah, like Reeves just
got a little bit longer of a runway career wise,
but it's still just it still has to be Lebron.
Speaker 2: And I think that they they acquiring Luca was a
long term play, but like long term in today's NBA.
Per Nico Harrison, Yeah, I don't even think he's wrong.
Speaker 1: Three to four.
Speaker 2: Years is like, well, Lebron's probably there for two thirds
or half that anyway, so the answer would need to
be him, and he's certainly the one who's more likely
to be trade. Reeves is more likely to be traded
if you want trying to fix the big man spot.
If you wanted to go real sicko, I did consider
Ruey or Jared Vanderbilt.
Speaker 3: Uh well, I think having Luca there makes Vanderbilt a
little bit more of a consideration, just because Vanderbilt is
a better defender.
Speaker 2: By the way, I'm running out of reason. There's some
reasons to explain it, and I don't think it's going
to sustain. But since Anthony Davis last played for the Lakers,
so January twenty ninth, that's before the trade of line,
they have the best defense in the NBA. They've been
like the small ball commos are working, They're swarming. There's
no way I still think they have top five championship
oods right now. I think that your borderline insane if
you invest in that at top five championship ods, I
can't get there. But they're continuing to prove me wrong.
Like there's a lot you look at their roster, there
should be all these warning signs and maybe some of
the stats, there should be all these warning signs that
just they just keep winning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean, yeah, they're differential. Is like it's
not that of a team that belongs where they are
in the standings. I'll tell you that it's a credit
to the coaching staff. Can we say that that, like
the personnel is not elite defense personnel?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: And so like they're just that they're packing the paint.
They're turning it into a like make or miss thing. There,
Let's who do we always it's like New Orleans. We
had a long discussion about New Orleans, Like, man, how
are they're giving up all these threes? But like teams
are missing them? Are they doing something right? Like there's
a little bit of that happening with the Lakers too.
But the process has been has been sound so far.
Speaker 2: It's still mind modeling because maybe Vanda would have had
a case from one of their two best defenders, but
just given the availability issues, they traded their two best
defenders to get Suadach.
Speaker 3: That's why you just don't believe in it. Frank who
we got her, Memphis, we got the Grizzlies. Here. This
is we'll do a couple. Let's start at the high end.
Jaron Jackson or John Morant.
Speaker 1: Is this a safe space?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: I think it's Jaron Jackson Jr.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's already the bigger anomaly if he's gonna
end up with what his third top.
Speaker 1: Three finishing defensive Player of the year.
Speaker 2: At least his second, and maybe is it's by default
because we won't be available, but he might have two
defensive Player of the years. He's improved as a self
creating like offensive player. Still not the best passer, still
not the best rebounder, but he can play five. But
he could also play alongside literally any other big.
Speaker 1: He is the fulcrum of this defense.
Speaker 2: And you still have questions about the playoff liability in
the sense of, Okay, he's not gonna go check like
the I mean this would be NBA Finals, like Jason
Tate Like. You don't want him being the primary wing checker.
That's why you're gonna use Jalen Wells or even Vince
Williams Junior.
Speaker 1: To do it.
Speaker 2: I just think that Joa. Morant is fantastic. He's a
great playmaker. He can do amazing things on the court.
The shooting outside shooting is still a concern. The availability
is still going to be a concern, and I think
the Grizzlies like I'm not looking at them the way
that you were looking at Boston, where it's like just
considering June. But to that point, even if you were
Jared Jackson, Junior still has a case. I think he
unlocks the Grizzlies depth and versatility in ways that not
even John Morant does, and I do not. I'll make clear,
I don't subscribe to the theory that people think that
Grizzlies can just be better without John Morant, like maybe
by way of trade, but like right now, you don't.
Speaker 1: Just take JOA. Morant off the Grizzlies and they're better.
That's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: Man. I thought I was gonna go Jaw really easily,
but I think especially I think I think the argument
you make for Jaw, I'm gonna say Jackson, but I
think the argument for that makes it harder for Jaw
is that if you envision like the late stages of
a of a playoff game, it is Moran that has
the ball that may or may not be winning you
the game like that. I think that's the role he plays,
and I think he is good enough at that to
where it's like as good as Jackson has become as
an isolation score, as valuable as his spacing can be,
that it comes and goes, and as great as he
is defensively, I think again I said this several times,
it's just harder to get the guy that Jaw can
be and has been for Memphis. But I think the
just the overall value this season just says that Jackson
is a better player and secondly, players like Morant in
so far as there have ever been any, I'm not
super confident that there's going to be a long prime
here because we're not even talking like the athleticism is
one thing, Like he's still just he does things you
can't believe, like from a speed, body control change, the direction,
vertical leap stamp like that stuff is unbelievable. But he
even he's not like like Westbrook, like sturdier, and even
Derrick Rose was sturdier, and those guys got real different
when they lost a little bit of athleticism. And I
think Moran is gonna be more susceptible to that because
he is so slight where it's like he does do
you know what I mean, I don't want to use
I mean, he's already missed time significantly because of injury.
But I don't want to say fragile, but it's like
this is a star that burns real, real hot and
then is just not gonna burn for very long.
Speaker 2: I feel like, And what's interesting is I think I
would like the less athletic version of John Morant more
than Westbrook or Rose, because I think he's a way
better like passer and that you needed to blow things
down and it's traditional, here's a ball screen, like we're
gonna give you some space, and you have to be
more patient with your dribble. You're not trying to blow
by guys. I just think he would be better what
I would actually disagree with when you're trying to make
the case for John Morant, though I don't I actually
think that, and maybe this is too broad away of
looking at it. I think Jared Jackson Junior is harder
to replace them, Like what is harder to do right
now to go out and get someone to run your
offense in a way that you think, Trent, let's run
your half court offense in a way that translates to
the playoffs, or get someone like Jaron Jackson Junior, who
is like, forget about defensive player of the year like
maybe one of the two or three most defense defensive
players in the league. And then yes, you're right, the
shooting comes and goes with him, but still a floor
spacing concept at least, and he can score like in
ISOs now like getting going downhill like from dead stops.
Speaker 3: Do you it's a good point? Do you feel better?
I think maybe the Phoenix game the other night is
like a little too much in my head where Morent
did look like the guy in a super high scoring
game where he was just getting what he needed to.
Do you feel better about the last possession of the game,
the ball is in Jackson's hands at the top or
morants because I think it can be Jackson because he
is really hard to guard. But I just like, is
that what Memphis is going to do? Is it gonna
be like jaw you go space? Like I don't think so.
Speaker 2: No, because one John can't really space. He could move
without the ball for sure.
Speaker 1: You are right, though, because Jaron.
Speaker 2: Jackson Junior is just not and he's had like he's
doubled up his assist rate for his career in the
past two seasons, but he's not okay, Like yeah, like
we know he's gonna make the right decision. No, if
he's putting the ball on the deck, he's most likely
gonna look to score, and John Moran is just like
just different. So yeah, that's I just feel like, what
would be if in the offseason, what's gonna be harder
for them to do? If this they're they're setting out
to do one of these two things, trading for a
John Morant replacement or trading for a Jaron Jackson junior replacement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there isn't a Jaron Jackson replacement. Is
It's just what the point you're making, I think, Like,
so that's that we both went Jackson. I think Moran
you can get a high end starter in Memphis, is
not a whole lot worse because they've looked, they've played
without Moran a lot, and they're where they are in
the standings, and yeah, it's Jackson. But it's like, I
feel like most people are gonna disagree with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they might just be if they're looking at
it the way that you framed it, of final possession
of a playoff game, maybe that is the right way
to look at it. And we're just Jaron Jackson Junior
pilled at the moment our second Memphis Grizzlies one though
Zach Edi or Jalen Wells great, I.
Speaker 3: Mean, Jalen Wells is about to run away with Rookie
of the Year here. I think, uh, I I think
I I think I go Edie, and it really is
because I think we know what Wells is and this
is pretty much it. And Edie does have the like
he's shooting threes like. Edie does have the capacity to
join that group of guys that are like, you know,
a huge presence in the lane and also can space
the floor. But I mean, Wells is just better today.
There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 2: I go back and forth because isn't Jalen Wells even
if he's not going to be any better, that's just
the archetype that everyone wants. I think I'm gonna lean
Edie just I think for if you're Jalen Wells, you
would need to be better at one of two things.
Where do I trust him to go up against more
of the power wings he's fought. I don't know that
he's held up so well there or does he have
more ball skills offensively? But you also look at like
what this team kind of needs and they have Santi
al Dama, they have Brandon Clark like they need wings,
like properly sized wings. And Jalen Wells is that so
I think he probably has a stronger case than we're
giving him. But I also kind of feel like Zach
Edy is more of the anomaly, and that's why I'll
favor him. As you mentioned, like the three point shooting,
the screen settings already translated, I just and then this
was I looked this up the other day. There's only
four rookies, three other rookies who have ever matched Edie's
rebounding and block rates while hitting as many threes, Chet Holmgrend,
Victor women Yama, and Isaiah Stewart. And so you're running
the spectrum of okay, it's super too high in guys
there and then Isaiah Stewart. But I think that, especially
because of how Jaron Jackson Junior excuse me, is best
being deployed, it feels like Edie will end up being
more important long term. You could also say, though, is
he always gonna be playing like relatively model?
Speaker 1: Then in that case, Wells would be a good good answer.
Speaker 3: I think you'd also say, like Edie is, there are
a few there are gonna be things that Edie can't do,
Like he's just the brook Lopez model, is very much
the model, Like you don't want brook Lopez guarding in
space if you can help it, Like that's that's gonna
make it tough. His mobility and Wells is just like
he does. Wells doesn't take anything away from what you'd
like to do on both ends. Like Wells is just
he's ready now to be a starter. It is on
a good team in a in a limited role. So
like we're just banking on Edie becoming a brook Lopez
type because otherwise you should just pick Wells because he's
already a valuable player for.
Speaker 2: The Miami Heat Khalil Ware or Tyler Hero grant Man.
Speaker 3: I mean this would have been easy a year ago
before Hero just started and where was in college because
he wasn't on the team. I'm gonna go. I think
I'm still going the mystery box thing. I just think
the hero player type is he's not Jordan Clarkson. He's
way better Jordan Clarkson, but it's that type of player
where he's not giving you anything defensively, and his size
means that he's kind of a he's really not even
He's like a one position defender and you hide him,
whereas where might just be big and athletic and able
to shoot threes in block shots, Like I think I
value that a little more.
Speaker 2: I feel like Miami's time horizon here complicates this for me.
But because of their pick protections moving forward, like the
picks that they owe, I just think it's Tyler hero
because he's the only player on the team now that
is capable of driving their offense. And maybe that changes
over the offseason or thereafter, but it's like it's not
Terry Rozier, it's not even Bam out of Baio in
that where it's not gonna be Andrew Wiggins. So I
get what you're saying about catering to the upside, but
like what is like what's the player comp even in
terms of upside for kohalil Ware.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. I think I think really what
as as you're making your case, what it's making me
realize is I don't really have any faith in the
heats like mid term prospects or you know. So I
think I just I'm picking the younger guy who I
think might matter on the version of the team that
like maybe doesn't even have hero anymore, because I feel
like that's you know, the draft stuff does say that
they need to care about now, uh and in the
next couple of years. So they But but I I, yeah,
I just the hero player type doesn't do it for me.
It's it's a matther In that's it's like that kind
of thing.
Speaker 2: I initially proposed Colila or Andrew Wiggins. But would you
have picked Wigans over Tyler Hero?
Speaker 3: Probably not because for the reasons you said of like
somebody's got to make the offense run, and you know,
Wiggins is old enough to where you're not thinking about
five years.
Speaker 2: I think if you would have picked Wigs and we
would have needed to have an intervention for you, Like
there's something I don't know who what what of these
like scoring playmaking guards hurt you?
Speaker 1: Is it this like Jordan Poole, like PTSD or something?
Speaker 3: But maybe yeah, it's a chicken or egg. I didn't
love Jordan Poole and he that player type. I don't
know if it's because of him or he just fits
into that box.
Speaker 1: Hit me with the Milwaukee Bucks, mister Hughes.
Speaker 3: The Milwaukee Bucks. You must decide between brook Lopez mentioned
several times by me already, or Kyle Kuzma new friend but.
Speaker 1: Not hasn't looked too bad in Milwaukee either.
Speaker 2: I will say Kyle Kuzma's younger and under contract, but
I still think it's brook Lopez. There's a I'm it
would really depend. I think this season specifically, it's still
brook Lopez. But even if you're moving beyond that a
little bit, could you say Bobby Portis is either not
going to opt out or comes back at a smaller number.
I mean, especially following his twenty five games suspension and
like maybe they view playing Giannis up even more. And
because brook Lopez is older that and you have Kuzma,
like maybe it is just Kuzma. But I still just
think brook Lopez is the archetype that we've kind of
spent a lot of time saying, like.
Speaker 1: They're just not available.
Speaker 2: Like still, god, who can be a rim protector and
is going to stretch the floor for you? So I
still go him, even though I guess in theory Kusma
should fill a higher value role. I would say, at
least on defense in a playoff setting. But you need
to tell me that, oh, maybe he was. I mean,
like the base rim protector in the playoff setting doesn't
matter unless you're gonna tell me, here's my thing, that
you're just gonna have Gyannis and Kuzma populate the front
court moving forward, And that was the idea behind the trade.
Speaker 1: I don't I couldn't pick Khusma here. I just can't
do it. No.
Speaker 3: I think Kuzma would need to be either an elite
shooter or just even a better defender to make this close.
I think Lopez is just like a fundamental part of
like what this Bucks team is today and today is
what matters. And again, if Kuzma were younger and or better,
then you could start thinking about, like, oh, what's you
mean in the post Jannis world, Like he's just not
He's not at the level of player that the factors
into that side of it. So I think it's it's
it's Lopez for me.
Speaker 1: Bonus one Yiannis or Doc Rivers.
Speaker 3: Who's gonna be there longer? Is that the question there
will if one leaves, the other one is not gonna
be a behind him very far.
Speaker 2: Let's see, we're onto the Minnesota Timberwolves. There was some
we took some time to figure out which one we
were gonna pin down, but nas Reid or Rob Dillingham,
who's more important than the Wolves's future?
Speaker 3: Oh boy? Uh so we got to talk about like
the kind of the pivot point thing because Reid is
approaching free agency and has looked really good. I mean
we already were kind of in the bag for him,
but with Randall out, it's just like, this guy can
be a twenty point score that is gonna spread the floor.
Speaker 2: And he did this when karl Anthy.
Speaker 3: It's just like he can do this, and that's the thing,
is like, and he's probably gonna get paid like a
guy that can do this. And what does that mean?
Do the Wolves walk? Do they add another high salary?
Do they convince Julius Randall to leave so that it
makes more sense of it? There's all that to think about,
and also read is like I can't I'm constantly like, oh,
he's only that old, like cause he just I don't know,
just you forget that he's you know, going, he's not
twenty eight, Like this isn't just like always gonna wear down?
Is it crazy to still say Dillingham, I think that's
where I'm gonna so we got to talk about what
the time horizon is for them, which is which is
tricky because they're not in the standings where they were
last year, where it would have been just like who's
gonna help over the next few months. So that pushes
me more towards Dillingham, because every time you watch him,
you see like the pre draft billing on him of
really really hard to stay in front of plays with
a high level of confidence, like could be the on
ball guy that gets Anthony Edwards kind of into a
role that makes like perfect use of what he's great at.
So I'll go Dillingham. If it were a situation where
like the Wolves had more control Overread and maybe like,
oh what could they trade him for? I might go
Read and Reads a better player today by like a
pretty clear margin. I just think, considering what they gave
up to get Dillingham, the role he might fill, the
flashes I've seen his youth, I think I think, Eileen Dillingham.
Speaker 1: I have to go Dillingham too.
Speaker 2: And I think part of it also is you have
Rudy Gobert there, and I don't know if you're if
you if you say Reid doesn't the eventual pivot become
a just given Rudy Gobert's age, that okay, we view
him as just our primary center moving forward, and I
don't do you like that?
Speaker 3: How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2: Like, if that's to me, I love it sure, And defensively,
I think you feel better about it than if it
was Car. Well maybe not because Conley Town's is a
much better rebounder, right, but like even the scene in
the Wolves forty first percentile when nas Reed is the
center and just he's gonna have limitations as a rebounder.
Speaker 1: He has.
Speaker 2: He's gotten better I think over the past like season
or two as a rim protector. But he's not a
capslock rim protector. And so if he's not like getting
you rebounds, if he's not really protecting the basket or
being an a turnent, he's better in I hate to compare
him to this player, but it was just the the
Nuggets constantly, not constantly, but the view of Zeke Nagy
at one point was like he's going to be a
backup five, and it's just no, he's clearly better off
defensively as you're four. I think a lot of similar
things applied ton Os Reed, just not on the stite.
He's way better than Zekenage. I'm just saying it's one
of those kind of player types where it's where are
they best deventually?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: Do I think you could get away with it because
you have Anthony Edwards, Jane McDaniels, if you keep Nikhil
Alexander Walker around, maybe, but I you have Gobert. I mean,
Randall's kind of there too, and so does Reid given
their financial situation as well. I think it has to
be dealing Ham because of the team control. But also
that's like their biggest pain point too. It's like everything
Reid is doing is awesome, but none of it has
kind of bridged the gap between them and what they
were last year, when it was the offense felt more
trustworthy even though it still wasn't capslock elite, and even
when even when they were at their best last year,
what was kind of the biggest conundrum. You're either two
dependent on Mike Conley or two dependent on Anthy Edwards,
and the two people you're too dependent on, they're not
going to bring you to an offensive level high enough
to win the title. I don't know if Rob Dillingham
is going to be that either, but he certainly just
because of what he does everything you outlined, like, he
might be that player, whereas Reed is not going to be.
Speaker 1: That's just not the player that he's supposed to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a tough one though. Would you've gone Rob
Dillingham or Jade McDaniels with the other one?
Speaker 3: If well, if we're talking shorter term, I think you
have to go McDaniels. But I don't know that the
Wolves are like at a point where it's like, oh,
in the three and D's two, it's super valuable. I
probably would have gone Dillingham, honestly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, every time I see.
Speaker 2: Jane McDaniels like dribble into a pull up these days,
I'm kind of like, well, maybe it would be him,
but that would be I think I probably would have
leaned Dillingham, which is such a weird thing to say,
because these players are so much better than him right now,
So we are on to the New Orleans Pelicans, grant
they are yours, Zion Williamson or Trey Murphy who is
more important to the future.
Speaker 3: We love Trey Murphy, but it's Zion is just and
and this might have been hard like a month ago,
but Zion is just he looks pretty close to as
good as he's looked ever maybe right now, just so
Zion is the central figure here. Whatever happens to the
New Orleans Pelicans franchise will be determined by what they
do with him and the role he continues to play.
As good as Murphy is and as much improved as
he's been, like, he's just not on that level. So
short term it's Zion because they just everything's about him
still justifiably. And long term it's Zion because this team
is going to be a certain type of team because
he is there until he's not, and like Murphy just
doesn't have that same sort of global impact on like
what the whole operation is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't know, like he would need to.
Speaker 2: You would have to run the entire offense through him,
Like the passing and his self creation has been fun
to see from him this year, but it's just what
it's in comparison to Zion specifically, who is just he
has not played in a ton of games, but we're
talking twenty fourth points five assists. Still not like always
looked at like through and through this year has not
looked great. Still shooting fifty six percent on twos. And
just consider how banged up the Pelicans have been and
they're still outscoring opponents for the season when Zion's on
the court. As just I don't there. I will never
quit caffeine, random cheesecake binges or Zion Williams. Like I
could just Zion Williams's top ten player, lightning in a
bottle stuff. I don't know if I'll ever played long
enough to be that, but you can't. I think he
has to be the game.
Speaker 3: The heis are just undeniable with him. It's just how
long do they last?
Speaker 1: Who is it for the New York Knicks brand?
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm glad you have to lead off with this one.
Uh we're gonna I guess we could tear this too. Uh,
We've got I'll just make it the wings. Is it
og or is it mckail bridges.
Speaker 1: Immediately it's og Ananobi, which is problematic.
Speaker 3: Why is it immediately him?
Speaker 2: Because it's just he showed more this season, Like it's
just offensively, mckel bridges still has the higher peak with defensively.
If you remove og Ananobi from this team, the Knicks
already aren't good enough. They will be a disaster and
mchal Bridges is not was never like gonna be able
to do some of the bigger wing stuff that or
like actual big man stuff that OG could theoretically do.
But there's been the noise, especially like the beginning and
the middle beginning of the season with mchal Bridges defensively
wasn't great. It's McHale Bridges because you gave up so
much to get him, and I think you could make
the case that he's been their fifth best player this season,
which is just there's a chance that trade goes down
as all time terrible. He's also the one who could
reach free agency sooner at this point. And you also
look at it through like they're not if the Knicks
make any changes, it's not to get the second best
player on the team or the second best let's say
scorer on the team. That has been Karl Anthony Towns
this season.
Speaker 1: But now we're.
Speaker 2: Getting into more deeply into the discussions of like what
does Karl Anthon Towns look like against the teams that
the Knicks need to beat. The cos and Celtics are
shooting like eighty four percent at the rim against Karl
Anthony Towns this and like he hasn't necessarily looked great
on offense in those games. I still think that mcel
bridge is probably the second most important player to the
Knicks moving forward, aside from Jalen bruns In in part
because of what they gave up to get him. Maybe
that maybe Karnthy Towns is the second most important player overall.
But when you look at what mchal Bridges is supposed
to do offensively and defensively, you still have to hold
out hope for that player like arriving and sustaining because
we know Og is never going to be that type
of player on offense, and they're still like to me,
you have to hold out hope that mckel bridges can
be of at least the fact simile of a number
two three hybrid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think that's right. I think you
know it. You cut you catch yourself saying like, well,
Og is the guy that gives Towns cover defensively, like
that's the heat handles that. But really, Bridges is the
guy that you need to be giving Brunson cover and
I and I think I don't know which of those.
Probably the Towns issue is bigger defensively, just because he
plays a more import or in position. It has to
be Bridges because I think I'm not so hung up
on on like yeah, man, they give up a lot
to get him. It's just like, well, that money's spent
or those picks are spent. So I don't know, I'm
trying to separate that from like, well, go forward.
Speaker 2: He's that extension. He's going to be extension eligible if
he signs it this season. I think people will still
think that's below market even after this year or.
Speaker 1: Close to it.
Speaker 2: It's like that's also kind of a pivot point for them,
is if are they going to have to invest when
they've already paid oh g Annoby so much like og
Ananobe type money in McKeil Bridges.
Speaker 3: That makes it even more clearly Bridges. It's just like
he's gonna make you have to make some tough financial calls.
I I think it's Bridges. I think almostly. It's it's
really partly because he just hasn't been good enough for
the most part, and you need him to be so
and like may and like I think maybe it's fair
to expect like he can be, but I but he
he just has to og He's been like kind of
pretty much as advertised maybe even like a little better
in some ways, I think it's bridges. This isn't necessarily
what this is about, but like as talking like swing piece,
like he's a guy that could be should be consistently
your third leading scorer on good efficiency and someone that's
making plays in addition to Brunson, Like he should be that,
and he should be the guy that's shutting down ones
and twos and some threes, and he hasn't always been that,
So that just makes him critical because that's what he's
here for. That's what they gave up all that for
him to do, and they need that to happen. So like,
I don't know what term to label it with, but
it's like I guess it's kind of X factory. He's
got to be that X factor.
Speaker 2: Do you think he's more important in their future than
Karl Anthony Towns? So I know Town's have been better
this year, but because of like if I guess you
have to give it more than this playoff run if
things don't go according to plan, But like, how else
are you supposed to insulate the brunts in Karl Anthony
Towns dynamic on defense? Like you can upgrade from Josh Hart,
I guess defensively, right, and that's are we sure that?
Speaker 1: And what does that look like? Is it playing a
big or is it getting.
Speaker 2: What do you need another ogobi in which case, So
it's just that's the other thing I've kind of given
thoughts to.
Speaker 1: Again, the Knicks are a good team, but they're.
Speaker 2: Very clearly not a contender. I think we could just
say that with confidence, you know.
Speaker 3: I think he got me there.
Speaker 2: The thing that becomes interesting then is, well, how do
you optimize their championship stock when you have bruntson and
towns And if let's just say.
Speaker 1: Like not that Mitchell Robinson's kind of the last.
Speaker 2: Card to play, but like if you decide that it's
not with Conathy Towns as your quote unquote for for
a good amount of time, then doesn't Cornley Town's not
even become expendable but like someone that you should probably move.
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe, I mean I think you weigh all that
against like Towns. What Towns is good at He's been
so much better at than Bridges this year, you know,
like you're asking kind of more of the next couple
of years. Like if things don't go well in the
these playoffs and you know.
Speaker 1: I've written this year off.
Speaker 2: It's like it's I'm not saying the Knicks are bad,
but like they might win a playoff series. I don't
see them beating the Calves or the Celtics.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't even think that they'll have a realistic chance.
And if they do, you know, I will happily eat
that crush.
Speaker 3: Sure, Yeah, you don't think they have like a puncher's
I think you're right. I think like if you if
you view them as on the same level as Cleveland
and Boston, you're just you haven't been paying attention. I
think I still, like I've seen Brunton do some pretty
amazing stuff, like in big games, and I just they
have like a puncher's chance. It's a cop out, that's.
Speaker 2: My It's like this team is just Brunton's had to
do police heroics out of his ass in games that
they have no business needing heroics.
Speaker 3: Ye shouldn't need to do this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's and by the way, Brunton was like,
it has been kind of culpable points for like some of
the offensive stickiness that they haven't in some of these
better teams, And I just it's I think carly.
Speaker 1: Town's a fantastic player.
Speaker 2: I just if it ends up being, and I don't
think it's going to be because of the limitations on
offense then and it's not. Maybe I feel differently if
the Knicks's offense had been on fire against Cleveland against.
Speaker 1: It hasn't like it.
Speaker 2: It's been fine to bad, And so I look at
it and say, if Mitchell Robinson is not the answer,
how do you properly then build? Like I would say
that you need another og Ananoby and that's not they.
Speaker 3: Have no Like you got another quarter billion dollars to
get one?
Speaker 2: Do you don't have the assets to get one? And
if you're getting one, did you trade Jeen Brunson to
get him? Or did you have to give up og
Anobi to get the next o?
Speaker 1: Giannanoby?
Speaker 3: Like I don't last thing on the Knicks, do you?
So here's where I have landed. I wrote this the
other day. I still think I think they're in a
tier by themselves, and I think they're actually closer to
Boston Cleveland than they are to like Indie Detroit, Orlando
or like with that chunk really just Indie Detroit. I
guess I think they're closer to the top.
Speaker 1: Than the middle. You have them above like Memphis, Houston, Denver.
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm just talking in the east. Just in
the East, I.
Speaker 2: Would probably be more inclined to put I would say
they're closer to Milwaukee indeed than Boston.
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's pretty clear.
Speaker 3: Okay, I think I think I think the upside's still there.
But but I could be real.
Speaker 2: Here's my question, and I don't mean to make it
about this, but the other card they could play is
do you see a more And I think that he's
been more flexible than he was in years past, like
over the past couple of seasons, but like just changing
the coach changed the complexion of the defense at all enough,
because the personnel will still be the personnel. But maybe
you're just saying, Okay, Karlathon Town's the center and they're
playing hyper aggressively anyway, he's not spending as much time
and drop. I don't know if they'll even have the
personnel of account for that, But that would be the
other argument if you're if you're concerned like I am,
about well, how do you build a playoff proof defense with.
Speaker 1: Karlathony Towns and Jalen Brunson. Do you think a coaching
change could be the answer.
Speaker 3: No, I mean I think I think the not Tipico,
I think has rightly been credited with like regular season
wise he gets he kind of maxes out what he's
gonna get out of a team. So yours is more
of a playoff question. But like I just I think
it is. It's personnel, like it's Brunson in town a little.
Speaker 2: Bit of survival too, of maybe it'll play some guys
a little less.
Speaker 3: But but Bruntson and Towns together is just like opposing
offenses are like cool, we got like your these are
your pick and roll, like we're good with this. So
I just I don't know what coaching tweaks you could
make that maybe if you employ like some genius from
like Sweden that specializes in like pre switching, so your
whole defense is just geared around not involving Towns or
Bruntson in the in the play somehow, Like I don't know,
it's just that that maybe then I.
Speaker 2: Was trying to think of the player, like not that
they could realistically get, but like a realistic type of
player that I think would make me feel a lot
better about the Knicks' defense in the playoffs, and the
name I came up with is still just so high
end that it's a little demoralizing me. But like Tamani
Kamara on this team, like that's the type of player
that they need.
Speaker 1: It's that's honestly almost not okay, But.
Speaker 3: Aaron Gordon maybe, like can you get him right?
Speaker 1: Herbe Jones maybe maybe not herb Jones.
Speaker 3: It's tough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we are onto the Oklahoma City thunder Grant breaths,
Calm down, We're gonna get through this together. Except we're
not because I'm gonna let you take the talking stick.
Check Houng grind or Jalen Williams.
Speaker 3: Have we already talked about this before?
Speaker 2: We probably during that five year exercise that we did
at the beginning of the year where we took listeners
like we had like god, it was almost like one
hundred combinations of players.
Speaker 3: Man, I just want to because I I don't want
to go against what I what I've said in the past. Uh,
But I don't know if we've ever just if you've
ever been put to a decision of either or here,
I think it's chet and that feels like blasphemy. But
I think Jalen Williams is very good at everything, and
I think and like, oh man, is.
Speaker 1: It Chet, Here's here's my thing.
Speaker 2: They cobbled together one of the best defenses of all
time without Chet Holm Grin. Yeah, but does he make
if you're my point with that be if you're picking
Chet Holmegrin, it's because you think he's gonna do more
to elevate the non SGA offense even when SGA is
on the floor, than Jayalen Williams would.
Speaker 3: And based on the numbers, feels like almost anyone could do.
But obviously the numbers don't totally control here. So I'm
gonna talk it out because I'm now I'm already wanting
to back off.
Speaker 2: Of There was one more question to you, Ye seen
j dub play center. I haven't seen Chet play shooting guard?
Speaker 3: And that's true. That's true, I think. So I already
feel myself backing off of this. The reason I'm tempted
to say Chet, let's start there is that I think
he offers the team. Again, this is theoretical because the
defense was you said it was was elite without him.
I think he offers the team like lineup looks and
just versatility potential on both ends that feels just incredibly
hard to find like that so few other guys could
could give them with his spacing, with like his potential
for offensive growth going forward. He's a defensive player of
the Year caliber defender that you can't really attack with
switches like he just he he could. He could be
like truly spectacular in a role that like no one
can fill, and and and then the question is like,
even if he is, that does that matter more than
a do it all wing who plays at an all
star level that can can true can really be like
a better Jalen Brown to your to your SGA's Jason Tatum.
Maybe not right now, but maybe right now and definitely
down the line. I think maybe I got a walk
it back because the wing position matters so much you
gotta have two of them, and on off stuff. Notwithstanding,
I think Jadob is still you're not picking many young
wings over him. I think maybe I'll go Jalen Williams.
But you could really sell me on Chet if you
could promise me he's gonna be healthy and hit his
potential offensively.
Speaker 2: I would agree with pretty much everything you said. I
wonder if there's the even simpler way to do it
would be take Jalen Williams off this team right now,
or take Chet Holman off this team right now.
Speaker 1: Which we did did but are they better in the playoffs?
Speaker 2: And so it almost comes down to do you trust like, Okay,
it's Isaiah Hartenstein, then you have some Kenrick Williams sprinkled
in there to replace Chet versus because I almost one
of the other things I consider when I was thinking
about this was it's not that okayse is old, but
like you can see some of the guys in the
perimeter spots maybe like aging out or running their utility
like like kind of like Alex Caruso for sure does
not look great, like he was injured, hasn't looked great since.
And then it's well, Cason Wallace is just so limited
And it's because they have now this might have been
Chet would have had a stronger case last season, not
only because he wasn't healthy, I mean because he was healthy.
Speaker 1: Excuse me, because I say A Hertenstein wasn't there.
Speaker 3: The team context really does matter because you take Jalen
out and it's just like SGA has nobody and if
you take Chet out, which they did, you still have
Hartenstein and you also have Jadab who could just play center.
So it's like, yeah, I think it's clear and clear
that's probably Jalen Williams. But isn't that just nuts to
think to say because of how good chat can be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and but the other by the way, I
didn't give this to until now. If you're really a
believer in Nicola topicch, the answer could like does excu
chat at all?
Speaker 1: And that?
Speaker 2: And with some people think like, well, if you got
rid of j Dubb, could Aaron Wiggins scale up even
more the thunder? That's fascinating, But this is a tough choice.
I would just skew Dadub. I think he's like more
anomalist for what he does. And then the team context
kind of seals it for me. Maybe I feel differently
if we saw more of them without Ja Dubb though, right, Yeah,
I am not gonna enjoy taking this next one.
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, good, okay, Dan, we got Orlando another
just back to backs here, uh, Franz Wagner, Paulo Bankkaro.
Speaker 2: I'm basically going off just vibes at that, But my
feel is still I'm picking Palo bank Caro, and I
don't in the moment, it doesn't feel like.
Speaker 1: The right answer.
Speaker 2: And neither of them have played particularly well since coming
back from injury, but Palo Banko has looked a lot worse.
I still just look at him and it's I do
believe that he's the better passer. And when you're gonna
see who's if both of them are on the floor,
who's going to command like more of the defensive attention,
like Palo bank Caro to me, and I think that
peak And this is maybe I'm still underrating Franz Wagner's playmaking.
I just I don't you know, I think that Pala
bank Carro has the the higher ceiling for all that
he can do, like the scoring versatility when he's on
the ball, And it's I hate, I hate picking this
because Franz is Remember the question I posted to you,
like I think over the offseason was kind of okay,
are we excuse me? Like is it Jalen Suggs or
Franz Wagner. But now it's become like Palo bank Caro
or Fanz Wagner. And that's a testament where Franz is
doing and I'm curious to see what if anyone like
let us know in the comments our discord, who would
you be picking here?
Speaker 1: If your magic fans like, are you picking?
Speaker 2: As Franz shown enough this year where it's like, yeah,
he shouldered probably like tougher defensive assignments, like who's guarding him?
That had so much to do with Palo Bank Carroll
being absent overall, I think I don't is he and
is Palm more important? Because if you decide that Franz
Vagner is the more important player, like you, like, can
Pala Bank Carroll be on this team? Whereas if you
decide that Palo Bank Carro is the engine of your offense,
like Franz can very clearly still be on this team.
Speaker 3: So would you agree that Franz has played However, albeit
briefly earlier this season. I'm talking about at a higher
level than Paolo has ever reached, because we had Franz
fifth in MVP voting when we first did it, and
he was an All NBA first team guy at that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was a longer I would say, like
the Palo Bank Caro we saw like for the playoffs
last year, even though they ended up losing I think
that's a higher level than we've ever seen from Franz.
But but Franz did it for longer and without Palo
bank Cao, so that's given.
Speaker 3: That's my main hang up. I'm still going Paolo, and
the reason is it's it's you can't really say this
fairly about anybody this young talking about either of them.
I don't know what Franz does to get significantly better,
whereas Paolo I think may not need to get much
better because, like you said, like that playoff run was
something I think. I still think there's more room for
Bancaro to improve, and I think it's likelier that he
does get better and the other The other key thing
is like his size, Like they're both big wings. Polo
is just like he's he's like a throwback power forward
size that has like Carmelo Anthony tendencies offensively, So like
I think he's the guy that more so than Franz,
Like you get to points in games where the defense
has no answer, like there's just you can't there's not
a guy that can stop him, and then you have
to just change, you scrap your whole plan and change it.
I don't think Franz quite does that, and I do
think that coupled with with Bancaro's odds of just getting better,
I think I think it has to be him. It's
it's unbelievable and a huge testament of Wagner that like,
this is a conversation. I think that's where I would
leave it, because you know, I think Paolo offensively has
I mean, he could be someone that is if he
has a thirty points a game season, it'd be like
just one like that. I think that's out there for sure.
Speaker 2: It's when you watch it move with the ball, it
doesn't make sense, right, that's.
Speaker 3: So big and so like nimble and mobile and still powerful.
It's just like he's he's a problem. Yeah, so I
think that's the right answer. But we both are way unconvinced,
which is either us being cowards or it's at least
a testament to Franz Wabner or both.
Speaker 2: Okay, this is this is interesting. I actually think Philly,
Jared McCain or Paul George.
Speaker 3: I mean, so we do need to discuss their window
because what is it, you know, like if if they're
gonna run it back with him b after several experimental surgeries,
this summer then like it just sort of has to
be George, which you know, I think you can't just
onboard a guy at a four year MAX who's in
his mid thirties and and just then start the rebuild.
I don't think even though like every other sign points
to that being the right decision, I think it has
to be George because of the shorter window that's just
built around EMBIID, and and I don't think even though
it might be the right call to just like, let's pivot,
they just can't. They're pop committed with embiid's extension and
everything else. It should be McCain. It should be McCain, yes,
because you would have wanted I think you should want
it to be McCain. But I think it's George.
Speaker 1: Well, comean counter.
Speaker 2: I'm the George would be the answer because I think
circumstances demand it. You can't just trade Paul George with
on that. I wouldn't think anyway. Well, I mean maybe
you could. I think people would dam want it. My
whole thing is what is like for Jared McCain to
be more? I guess it's the baseline just Paul George.
Like what is Jared McCain to a team that has
Tyree's MAXI.
Speaker 3: Well, so what I'm saying is like, that's totally a
valid question, I think, because it's just McCain or George, Like,
that's part of why it's George. But what you would
like is for like McCain to be in a situation
where overall he like, you're not so concerned about that
because you're just starting over and you want young, the
young talent.
Speaker 1: Like that's what you can about. Yeah, I Philly's just
we're supposed to get where. I've been waiting.
Speaker 2: I've been checking my phone like every five seconds because
Nick Nurse said, uh that I think the Sixers are
playing the Warriors, right, He's gonna be out for that game.
Maybe I'm getting the team wrong, but we're like they
keep saying there was reporting and that Nick Nurse kind
of said it, but there'll be more news soon, which
just sounds super ominous.
Speaker 3: It's just gonna be a shutdown's cut down, which.
Speaker 1: Is probably the right call.
Speaker 2: I do think in retrospect, based off the reporting we've
now seen, I really believe we collectively oversimplified it because
I kind of appreciate the dilemma that they were going
through with and be like you could get through? Should
they have then gone all in on Paul George paid
Embid if there was this much uncertainty. But they don't
have an answer, and so they've been trying different shit.
It just hasn't worked, and nothing may work. So I'm
a little bit more empathetic to like kind of the
Sixer situation than a lot.
Speaker 1: Of other people.
Speaker 2: What I will say is like, is there just a
scenario where if we did this in June, that McCain
is the answer? Because I'll say this, right, what would
it actually take. Is there a scenario where the Sixers
don't move Embiid or we don't decide that Embiid has
just done that McCain could be the answer.
Speaker 3: I don't think it could be. I think what you're
saying is right, Like, it would have to mean if
McCain is the answer, it means you've traded Embeid or
like cause the Maxi fit is like it's just an
issue and so many other things would have to change
for McCain to be in that position. I just don't
I don't think it's realistic.
Speaker 1: Grant, who do we got from this? This is so sad.
Speaker 3: Oh Man, I'm glad I get to ask you for Phoenix,
Ryan Dunn or OsO Igadaro.
Speaker 1: So this is interesting.
Speaker 2: I think it's ohso Igadaro because the Suns are fucked
like it's just whatever's gonna happen with them this summer.
I will be at least Kevin Duran is getting traded
at this point.
Speaker 1: You could circle back.
Speaker 2: For something that we're gonna Hopeully record in a second,
Like it wouldn't shock me if Devin Booker is getting
tired of this shit too, uh, because remember we talked
about this with Timani Kamara that he seems to have
more value to a good team than he would a
team like the Blazers. Now he has proceeded to transcend that.
Ryan Dunn does not have nearly the offensive skill set
that Tamani kamaras shown. He also doesn't kind of have
the same positional range on defense. So I look at
OsO Igadaro and as someone has a long term just
big man prospect, I think whether the Suns kind of
cater to the present, the medium term, the long term,
that's just someone who might be more likely to carve
out a higher volume role for Phoenix and I like,
I guess that could be wrong, but I when I
keep looking at it, I don't know what does Ryan
Don need to do then to like be the answer,
Like it's just like what would you need to see
from him on offense? And yes, I know, like okay,
like he's technically he's played more minutes this season, but
I still just lean a guitar up because I think
he's more versatile for the position that he's gonna play,
Like there's a chance that he becomes an offensive asset,
whereas Ryan Done. We all kind of were sold on
the shooting at one point and then it tapers off.
So I think it ends up being Oh so if
the Suns were actual contenders, I think.
Speaker 1: Done is the answer, If that makes any sense.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, the time horizon, I don't you know,
the time horizon doesn't change it a lot for me.
I like a guitar a lot. I think it's done
because he needs to do one thing really well to
suddenly be super valuable, and I don't think it's very
likely that he'll do that one thing, which is like
let's say shoot thirty eight percent on threes at like
volume that defenses care about. Because then then then he's
a real piece, like and you know guys with his
track record, it's just you know, I'm not sure where
I land. I go back and forth on the like
you can shoot it or you can't camp and they're like,
well you can look because you get the guys like
I don't know, Bruce Bowen, you's like a million years ago,
or like Dori and Phinney Smith, or like there's more
contemporary examples of guys that like got just good enough
to make the defense and wing size play. I think
that potential and because it's just just do the one thing,
like there's no mystery about what Ryanda needs to do.
And I think there's a decent enough chance that he
gets good enough as a shooter to where it's like
we're talking about him as you know, not Cam Johnson,
but like you know, some someone similar where it's like
we all every team wants a piece of that. Who's
more important Kevin Duran and Bradley Beidle this on future
I mean Bradley Biale because he's in charge of it.
Speaker 1: So for Portland we settled on this one. You could
just another team. We could have went different directions. Donovan
Klingen or Tamani Kamara Grant.
Speaker 3: This is a fun one. There's a little bit of
Jalen Well Zach Edy here I and I went Edie.
So I feel like, just for consistency's sake, I should
say Clinging. I think I'm gonna go Kamara. Uh, because
Klingon still has you know, he's a rookie, but he's
been such a still a low minute player so far,
which is I don't know, maybe that's just the makeup
of the team in Portland, just trying to thread that
weird needle of winning and developing. I could still just
see Clinging. Clingon might have a superpower, might be the
shop blocker, offensive rebounder, like you've got to account for.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: I think Kamara is just so good, Like he's so
good to Kamara does have a superpower, like there's no
doubt about it. He is an elite defensive player and
fits everywhere because of that. So I think it's Kamara,
But you probably should acknowledge that Clingon might be like
a special quote unquote conventional big.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a FIRS.
Speaker 2: I mean if depending on how much you factor in minutes,
he's a first team All rookie case, I think, And
that's kind of the So the two deciding factors are
like Portland doesn't seem to view him as like a
high minute big right now. And I understand that there's
alternatives on the roster, but I'm wondering if that's more
of a like not a bug. But it's like their plan,
like this isn't just.
Speaker 1: A one off. Maybe they just want him build up
his staima and he had an injury that he dealt
with previously.
Speaker 2: But I think when we picked Edie over Wells, one
of the things I factored in was, Okay, Jalen Wells, Like,
how's he gonna fare against like the bigger type of
way like Tomaniy Kamar just defends everybody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so that coupled with.
Speaker 2: The high minutes that he's playing, I think that makes
him the answer as well. But you are, like you said, Kanavan,
Clinton has a superpower, but like Tomani Kamar's defense is
his superpower where it's not Jalen Wells. Doesn't it feel
like not that he's only competent, but you appreciate the fight,
and with Timany Kamar, it's no, we're just appreciating a
racure and disruption.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Wells, yeah right, that's that's so right. Well,
part of what makes Wells impressive is like, man, that
guy's giving it everything he's got. Like he's a little undersized,
like he's not a great athlete, but he gets it done.
Kamara is like overwhelming in a very different way.
Speaker 1: That was an interesting one. Would you have picked? It's
very Is it still Scoot over shading for you?
Speaker 3: Or I don't know, after that dunk, we might just
have to say shade and that that one's up there.
A lot of times you see that things come across
the wire where it's like potential dunk of the year
and you're like, man, it's like nope, that that sharp dunk.
Really it's gonna be top three. Uh it's Scoot though.
Scoot's just you know, he's he's the potential offensive engine.
Like that's that's what he's supposed to Be's not that guy?
Speaker 1: Okay, Oh, it just wants you to give to me
good Uh.
Speaker 3: Sacramento Kings make a decision Dan Demonista Bonus or Keegan Murray.
Speaker 2: Now waiting, how I know how the King's front office
and ownership are going to treat the team is more important,
And I think that if you are looking to be
competitive and you need the fulcrum of what you're gonna
build around offensively, the answer is DeMont Is Sabonis.
Speaker 1: So I just he's provided some stretch. There's the playmaking.
Speaker 2: I mean, if they ever what would be the players
want to spoil something we'll talk about in eventual podcasts,
like how many players would get substantially worse if like
they started enforcing like off arm rules to where you
could really use that well, like a shanng Goon a Sabona.
Speaker 3: There's a certain MVP candidate right now that might have
a little bit of a hard time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's just he's hyper efficient. Now I think
there's he's one of those players where I mean the
Kings have two of them on the roster right now.
When you look at their value in the regular season
versus the playoffs, there's a really big difference because scheming
around them gets a lot easier. And it's the same
thing with DeMar de Rozen who also happens to be
on Sacramento. But like this goes beyond eating innings, Like
he might make All NBA this year and deserve it.
I think he deserved an All Stars spot. Like the
number you could feel how you feel about his defensive
limited The numbers are the numbers when you're looking at
someone who's just like his true shooting percentages through the roof,
shooting the lights out from three on, not a ton
of volume, but some like modest volume. There is the passing.
Do I think he's as versatile of a passers like
on the level of a Nicole Yaton Like no, absolutely not,
but like the playmaking out of handoffs, the playment, like
just his screen setting, the ability to bring the ball
up the floor. This is this is an all Star.
This is a star player, and Keithan Murray is not
a star player. I think he's someone who has the
ability to make them all defense. I don't really know
what to make of his offensive ceiling because he's one
been on so many different iterations of the Kings, and
two I would say none of those. Maybe one of those,
like the earliest iterations, might have featured them trying different
stuff with him offensively. So yeah, I think it's the
bonus here, and I think it's at this point, given
what we know about the Kings, that's a pretty concrete
answer from me.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. It's the bonus. Like, I think, the
only way you talk yourself into Murray is you significantly
lengthen you make the Kings a really four thinking team,
which they're not. And you also say there's way more
in Murray's offensive game than we've seen. And the only
reason it's not, you know, hasn't shown up is because
of the circumstances, because of the the offense first players
he's out there with. I think that that's some there's
some of that. I think mostly he's just wired to
not be a guy that is going to really fire
off fifteen shots a night like twenty. I forget twenty.
He's just that's not. I don't know what you would
point to to say that that's what he'll become offensively,
And for this to be even a contest he would
have you'd have to believe that about him.
Speaker 2: Ron and the San Antonio Spurs, who are yours? Devin
Vessel or Stephan Castle.
Speaker 3: I mean, Vassell has been the better player and been
around longer, has a track record of like got some
Bradley Beal in him, with maybe a little more defensive playmaking.
Potentially it's still Castle because the spurs are Now, if
you had Wemby healthy and they'd gone on a run
and they were in the range of like, oh I
might get the sixth seed or something, it probably should
be the Cell because you should be trying to win
now because you've got a generational player that's really good
already and you just traded for Fox. It still just
needs to be Castle because the massive mystery box potential,
Like is he a high usage on ball guard if
he learns to shoot? Is he a wing that guards everybody?
Speaker 1: Is he like a I don't know?
Speaker 3: Is he appear too like I just I don't know.
Is he Drew Holliday like I don't know, Like, we'll see.
It's the potential, it's the athleticism, it's the smarts, it's
all the little glimpses and stuff. And he's had plenty
of valleys next to the peaks this year. That's just
rookie stuff. The shootings a massive question. I think it's
a ceiling thing. I guess ultimately is I think Castle
has the potential to be better than thesell And you know,
in as little as like two more years, maybe maybe
even next year, who knows.
Speaker 2: I agree Castle has the potential to be better than Vessel,
but because they went and got darn Fox. I think
the answer is Devin the cell where when you're looking
at this from a team optimization perspective, you need to
me Steph Castle to be a player that he is
not shown to be on offense just yet.
Speaker 1: Now you're scaling ahead.
Speaker 2: The Spurs are playing a longer term game than many
of these other teams, so I understand it. I also
we know I'm way higher on Devin Vessel as an
on ball player off ball player than consensus. So Steph
Castle's defense like that's a superpower though, And I think
you can look at Devissel and say, what is his superpower?
Speaker 1: He doesn't have one.
Speaker 2: I'm more so betting on, excuse me, the well roundedness
of what he can do versus I guess betting it again,
like you know, compare contrasting it against what I think
Steph Castle is gonna be on offense. And my answer
there is I don't really know, Like I don't think.
I don't think you go out and get the Aaron
Fox inesssily if you think that he's ever gonna be
sort of a primary initiator type. And then if he's
not that I don't necessarily trust him in an off
guards role offensively, and look, maybe that's just I'm misreading
what his ceiling is gonna be.
Speaker 1: I agree.
Speaker 2: I think because of what already he's done on defense
and even the flashes he has shown as a playmaker,
the ability to shoot from deeper behind the arc, like
take those shots, not necessarily make them. To be clear,
I could absolutely see an outcome where he is better
than Devin Vessel.
Speaker 1: I'm just not prepared to invest in it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's fair. It's weird, like if Castle
had produced exactly like this over like two full years,
I would just say Vassel. But it's because it's like
a portion of one year. I think, oh, there's just
more there.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: What's interesting, though, is you said that you think Jalen
Wells is running away with Rookie of the Year, and
I feel like, if you feel this way about Castle,
why isn't he running away with Rookie of the Year
for you?
Speaker 3: I think if you're if I had to pick between
who's going to be the better player over their careers,
I'd picked Castle. I think Wells has just Wells has
been a positive contributor to a winning team on both ends.
This season, Wells has just been better as a rookie
than Castle has. I think the things Castle has shown
like excite me more than what Wells has shown.
Speaker 2: You knows, I just asked you about why does it
now matter in an exercise where we're talking about the future.
Speaker 3: Oh, you get the raptors?
Speaker 1: Uh, what are we?
Speaker 3: Okay, we're gonna do r J Barrett, We're gonna go
yaka Pearl. That's a that's a that's a mid mid
comparison if ever ever heard one.
Speaker 1: Uh, it's the one you picked so or what you
said that we should go with.
Speaker 3: That's why it's hard.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm going with and we just haven't.
Speaker 2: We don't know what the we're not We know what
the raptors are doing post Ingram, but like when you
haven't seen it in practice, it makes it tougher. I
think Emanual quickly has become way more important than both
of these dudes following me Ingram trade.
Speaker 1: So like I wasn't even willing to like necessarily pit
him against them, or wasn't as intrigued.
Speaker 3: And you can't use Barns and you can't use Ingram
so here's that's why we're here.
Speaker 2: And the other thing for me is we've talked about this,
and I think some Raptors fans agreed.
Speaker 1: A lot of them did not.
Speaker 2: I feel like you need a different type of center
than Yaka Peertl on this team long term.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Some people point out that it might
be like Ulrich Shamphay. I don't.
Speaker 2: I've not seen enough of him to say that that's
a distinct possibility. I think they need supercharged Chris Bouchet
as the five or actual Chris Bouchet probably works. And
I think also just with Ingram and Barnes and then
you have Barrett, it does sort of feel like, Okay,
this team is like not they're not running back projects six'.
Nine But messiah is still kind of smitten with the wing,
types and SO i think if he's ever gonna make a,
change a lot of people framed, as, oh is It
ingram Or barrett more important to this team moving? FORWARD
i think this is actually the proper question to ask
that if you're going to maximize the personnel that you
have right, now to, me it makes more sense than,
like within this current team, CONTEXT i think you can SHIFT.
Rj barrett around to where you're staggering. Players are you
bringing him off the bench eventually or can he just
work Alongside scotty and Brandon ingram now With Yaku, pertol it's,
well he has to play the five if you're not,
like it doesn't matter whether you bring him off the,
bench like who is Your we're not worried about staggering
him with certain other fives or bigs right. Now but
because of the spacing, ELEMENTS i get that he's a good.
Passer he's not a versatile. Passer he's a good. Screener
there's gonna be. Limit the free throw shooting is still
the free has been a little bit better this, year
but it's the free throw. Shooting he is probably like
underrated when it comes to like finishing out of the
pick and roll because he doesn't need to necessarily be
just at the. Basket but for WHAT i think that
this team's vision is moving, FORWARD i think they need
a different type of center Than Yako, pernel and so
that's Why i'm gonna go WITH.
Speaker 1: Rj barrett.
Speaker 3: Here, YEAH i think, Yeah, bart the The barrett just
has more. UTILITY i think in the best version of the.
Raptors it's, LIKE i don't, know maybe he's the primary
playmaker on second, Units like maybe that's what he that's
the role he falls, into and maybe he's just like
your fourth playmaker among the. Starters purdle is Just, yeah
the limitations are what they, are and especially if it's
like you, know If ingram becomes like a super high
volume three point, shooter it mitigates it a little. Bit but,
Like i'm never gonna believe In barnes's three point, SHOT i,
think you, know so then if he's gonna be out
there as your other front cork, guy Then i'd Like
peardle to shoot like that's it's not that. Complicated it's
got if you view, WELL i was gonna, say if
you view Like barnes as like A Draymond green type
of shooter where it's, like all, right you can take a,
couple but nobody's guarding. You but but, YEAH i don't
know that that's a weird. Comparison, YEAH i think it's
just very almost by.
Speaker 2: Default oh, man this means Because i'm Getting, utah you're Getting.
Utah that MEANS i don't have to Get, washington which
is just that is a hell fire one But Grant Utah,
Keyante george Or Walker.
Speaker 1: Kessler SO.
Speaker 3: I think It's kessler BECAUSE I i feel like we've
got enough, evidence you, know over a handful of years
now that he can be like a legit defensive, anchor
has had, stretches has had years where he's been like full,
stop one of the best room protectors in the. League
you gotta. Measure but, LIKE i don't Think kessler's ever
gonna be like he's the wings are not, Spreading like
this is What kessler's gonna. Be. H you'll you, know
he's kind of a dunk only on, offense offensive. Rebounder that's.
It george's potent is like pretty. LEGIT i just LIKE
i just don't know what to do with. HIM i don't.
Know and, look we've talked about. This i'll just jump
on it and you can run with. It like the
presence Of Isaiah collier means is and his role on
the team at the moment suggests like Maybe utah is
not sure Where george fits into that whole. Thing SO
i THINK i Go, kessler even though it does feel
inconsistent because in the Past i've picked the guy that, Like,
okay there's this tenth percentile outcome where or ninetieth percentile
outcome Where george is An All star or. SOMETHING i
just am less convinced that that's real for, him.
Speaker 2: Because he's looked so much better when it comes to drawing,
fouls specifically coming off the, bench even as a. Passer
With Keante, GEORGE i think the answer has to Be Walker,
kesler which disappoints me BECAUSE i was pretty High george
AND i still think he could be a GOOD nba,
Player BUT i think it WAS i want to, say
was It Nate duncan might have, said like he just
feels like he's going to settle into being a third,
guard and if that's like what we believe that he's
going to, BE i think for this to change is
Because Walker, kesler to use your, word the thematic word
of the, podcast has the superpower that's just like a rim,
protector and you'd like him to be a little bit
more dynamic on, offense but that's what that archetype, like
that's what you typically are going to get out of.
It you know that he can be a starting caliber.
Center Can Keyante george be a starting caliber? GUARD i
think he's going to have to score a lot more
efficiently than we've, seen AND i don't know IF i
want to separate it from the environment In utah and
like the circumstances under which he's having to, operate and
then also saying.
Speaker 1: Well like if you get better players around, him will
be more.
Speaker 2: Efficient i'm then conceding that his ceiling is lower THAN
i thought that it was. Before SO i am going
to go With Walker kesler, Here AND i THINK i
probably might say That Isaiah collier is more which is
why we didn't include. Him IS i thought he was
kind of the easy answer Versus, Kante george and. Me,
know maybe the, timelines like the contract situation and Where
utah is, headed that factors into it as. Well But
collier's the best passer on this, Team like even if
some of the stuff could be, WILD i think so
the fact that he we can already say that about,
HIM i Think george really needs, to like his scoring
efficiency needs to balloon for him to have a case,
Over like if you were trying to rank their young
players in terms of future, VALUE i don't know where
he falls Any, like if if we would you Put
collier in front of him at this.
Speaker 3: Point, SEE i don't THINK i, would only BECAUSE i
think the shooting with him is even, scarier yeah than
it is With. George BUT i think it's fair to
say That, collier like if you're focusing on like strengths
as the main like if you just care about, like
let's rank these guys by, Like, okay what's the thing
they do? Best and how much does it? Matter Like
collier might just as like a driver and passer have
a better like set of strengths Than george. Does because
what would you say we've talked about this last part,
Right like What's george's will stop using? Superpower like what's
his carrying? Skill, like what's the thing That, okay he's
always going to do.
Speaker 2: This his odd ball, cadence which is just so like
a cop out, Type, yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah what's? That what's that good? FOR i don't, Know, like,
well so far it's been good for sub forty percent
shooting from the field for his, career.
Speaker 1: Like, ay fifty six point seven true shooting off the.
Bench that's like.
Speaker 3: Then if that's that's where he's supposed to, be then
it's even.
Speaker 1: EASIER i don't want to do this. One let's skip.
Speaker 2: It The wizards one not BECAUSE i DON'T i don't
want to talk about The. WIZARDS i don't want to
talk about this.
Speaker 3: Specifically i've talk myself into having a strong feeling, Here
but you have to decide first For Washington Blall Cool
bali Or Alex.
Speaker 1: SAR i think It's Alex. Sar i'm just.
Speaker 2: The stretch that he can provide is a. Big the
playmaking he provides is a.
Speaker 1: Big and then.
Speaker 2: If he can be like who's more likely to as
good as block Cool bally is right now, defensively like
who is more likely to be the backbone of a?
Speaker 1: Defense it needs to Be alex ar by.
Speaker 2: Default and so the two things THAT i like about
him so far offensively now to touch the, hands those
are all concerns how you feel about his floor, Game
but just the playmaking and the stretch that we see them,
provide those are An those are still if you want
to say, anomalists they.
Speaker 1: Are clear value adds at the big man.
Speaker 2: Position i'm going it is so close, though like, honestly
the next good version of The, wizards it might just
be built around these two.
Speaker 1: Players that is an outcome that is absolutely in. PLAY
i Just i'm favoring Alex aar a little bit. More
F that really pains me BECAUSE i Love.
Speaker 3: Blah so the only THING i like better than a
big guy who can really defend and stretch the floor
is a big wing that might be your primary playmaker
and a really good shooter and a great. Defender So
i'm going Cool, bali it's super. TOUGH i, think like
because we saw him shoot it better last year as a,
rookie and because the playmaking has improved this, year and
BECAUSE i, believe like from a from a body comp
and like physical skills, standpoint there's no reason he can't
be elite defensively as a. WING i THINK i think
like you got to pick from both of his seasons
to get. There BUT i Think kolibali, STILL i still
believe we. Did we Did, stockerport AND i think WE'RE
i was stocked down or. Neutral it certainly. WASN'T i
can't remember we both.
Speaker 2: Went we both went stock. NEUTRAL i think Some wizards
fans weren't too.
Speaker 3: Thrilled it was a, discussion So i'm Gonna i'm not
gonna amend that because we said what we. Said BUT
i still think there's a shot For Koli bally to
be like to be really my favorite and maybe the
league's most important type of, player like the big two
way wing that can do everything like that's still maybe in.
There So i'm going with.
Speaker 2: HIM i assume he's just gonna. Blaw he is gonna
be a more efficient scorer moving. FORWARD i think for
me to pick him, oversaw the playmaking would need to
pop because if he's not like even more and then
even if he, LIKE i guess it has to happen
in tandem because if he's not a super efficient on ball,
scorer you're gonna take the ball out of his hands
then presumably. More and so it's then if you're talking
about more of just a super charged three AND d,
wing is where it get like? Where but maybe could
this be a Situation i'm trying to think, of what's
a team that's built around like, equals just like Like
Lebron luca in like that's like the.
Speaker 3: Extreme but, yeah but they're like different player types. Too
IT'S i, mean it's there's too many guys, there but
it's almost like A cleveland thing where you got your
mobile and then you got Your mitchell or your mobile
and Your garland where it's like they're not taking anything
away from each, other but it's, LIKE i don't, know
it's who who really in the moment is.
Speaker 2: Better do you know what's impacting me a little bit too?
Here BECAUSE i mentioned this in the stock report and
that might be the wrong way to look at, This
but when The wizards are operating on such a longer term,
WINDOW i just assume that they're going to eventually draft
or acquire someone who is going to have the ball
in his hands way. More and that's getting into what
Blaa coolabali maybe even Bub carrington is. Doing and so
unless you just kind of view this setup as just
like if it feels like for one of the skills
that you might appreciate What bola can do or hoping
that continues to. Advance if in my HEAD i think
that they're actually looking for someone who would come in
and marginalize that part of his, game maybe that's what's
taking away from it here for.
Speaker 3: Me, yeah whereas like who's gonna come in and, like,
oh Now sar doesn't get to do. This it's, like,
no he's gonna what he's shown so far is he's
gonna get all the rope he needs like to develop
as a, shooter spacer defender.
Speaker 2: As of right, now and because there's only one of
these positions available on the, Court like you're not gonna
draft another big like you never you say never draft
for fit Like. Sar when you look at What sar
is done and like where he, plays it's, yeah we'll
draft another like Size Kola bali. Player you're not going
to do that with because you could Play Kola. Balis
you can't PLAY i, MEAN i guess you could play
Two sars at.
Speaker 3: Once it depends on if one if one of them
becomes like, oh you can put the ball in his
hands on the perimeter and he'll like make a play
consistently THAT i, mean which doesn't feel like it's in the.
Cards but MAYBE i don't.
Speaker 1: Know tusar sounds like a computer virus. Too that was.
FUN i sufficiently hate.
Speaker 3: Myself, YEAH i feel a lot of self. Loathing so
good job by.
Speaker 1: Us you have anything else to add or do you
to take us out of?
Speaker 3: HERE i think that's going to cover. It thanks. Everybody
let us, KNOW i mean we you, KNOW i would
normally say give us suggestions or who do we? Forget
but like we deliberately picked guys that we hope we
would have tough discussions on and omitted ones that would
make it.
Speaker 2: Easy, yeah give us your, disagreements or if you want
to be, nice you give us your. Agreements, yeah but
you guys are thirty of thirty agreements.
Speaker 3: Only, yeah or it was our hit. Rate, please as
we say every Time Rate, review. Subscribe if you're checking
this out on, YouTube make sure you're subscribed to leave
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Subscription we'll be back with you next. Week Shouts frank
No kein, Apologies Jared allen who love