WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.879 Dirty hands means clean theology. 2 00:00:03.319 --> 00:00:04.519 Can you dig it? 3 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:10.000 What's going on on my local guys and gas and 4 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:11.560 long distance paths? 5 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:14.359 We're back, We're back. 6 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:15.400 Yes, we are. 7 00:00:16.879 --> 00:00:20.519 Had some technical difficulties starting this one, as usual. 8 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:22.960 It's one of those things. It can go great for 9 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:24.839 three or four times in a row and then just 10 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:25.960 something weird happens. 11 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:29.719 And well, I mean also too, we're treading the new 12 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:32.560 territory here, we're doing the whole video thing, so it's 13 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.200 a little bit of a learning curve, no doubt. 14 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:35.640 No doubt. 15 00:00:36.079 --> 00:00:38.240 But it's getting better. It's getting better. 16 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:42.079 No, yeah, we'll be in house work being they let 17 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:43.920 up on you, Anye a little bit. 18 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:45.600 They've let up on you. 19 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:46.719 They've hammered down on me. 20 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:51.960 Yeah, we're about getting everything called up. It's funny. We'll 21 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:57.679 change well, we'll get one unit running. It's like instantly, 22 00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:03.840 no one goes down somewhere else. It's it is what 23 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:07.959 it is, Yeah, I mean it's yeah, it's uh job security. 24 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:09.040 Yeah yeah. 25 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:12.719 Yeah. They've moved us on twelve hours and I've had 26 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:17.439 like two days off in thirty days. It's been good money, 27 00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:19.439 but been pretty ill. 28 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:22.239 Yeah, I've been pretty ill. 29 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:24.560 I guarantee it I think I kept my hair a 30 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:26.480 little like two weeks too soon. 31 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.599 You know you're unrecognizable. Yeah, yeah, you don't even look 32 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:31.879 like your lego anymore. 33 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:32.519 I know it. 34 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:37.719 I don't even look like Ben. He went from looking 35 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:39.079 like doctor Judd Burton too. 36 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:40.560 Yeah. 37 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:42.439 I think I might have had my beard, might have 38 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.879 had his beat. I don't know, man, it mine's pretty 39 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:51.840 bushy when it's untamed. But yeah, it's I've been walking around. 40 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:54.239 It feels like the air conditioning has been on. 41 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:58.319 You know you're cold all the time now, yep. But 42 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:00.760 for you guys, that's been your wanted us on this 43 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:03.640 walk through. We're going through the Book of Acts and 44 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:07.280 we're now in chapter seventeen. We got a great guest 45 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:10.280 for you guys. So before we dive into that, we'll 46 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:13.560 open up in prayer. Who's I think you prayed last time, 47 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:14.080 wasn't it? 48 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:18.719 Or go ahead there, Lord, Thank for today, Thank you 49 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:21.520 for this time of fellowship together, study and your word. Lord, 50 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:27.800 please speak to us, give us some discernment and understand 51 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:28.879 what you're trying to say to. 52 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:29.599 Just name him. 53 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:35.120 In you'll introduce our guests Steve Well. 54 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:41.000 Today we have one of my favorites because he's part 55 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:43.479 of a group that I love to listen to from 56 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:45.639 the Iron and Myth podcast. This is where one of 57 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.319 the first places I found out about him. But we 58 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:52.159 have Brian Goadwah with us, who he's a screenwriter author, 59 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:57.479 has written multiple screenplays To the End or To the 60 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:03.360 End of All Wars, The Visitation and co wrote My 61 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:05.199 Son Hunter, which has kind of been one of the 62 00:03:05.240 --> 00:03:06.639 more popular ones lately. 63 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:10.280 And also actually I wrote it. 64 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:15.000 Wrote it. Oh, I was sorry, I wrote it. My 65 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:20.400 fault also wrote multiple books, The Nephelin Chronicles, the Chronicles 66 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.280 of the Apocalypse, the Chronicles of the Watchers, and like 67 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:26.719 I said before, one of the four guys that we've 68 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:28.759 actually you're the last one we've gotten to talk to. 69 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:31.000 Last piece of the post, last piece of. 70 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:33.080 The puzzle from the Iron of Myth podcast, which is 71 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:36.199 one of my favorite things. And I love the way 72 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:41.199 you guys are able to talk about things from a 73 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:43.919 different standpoint, because you guys all have different ideas in 74 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.039 different ways that you viewed things, but you guys can 75 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:49.479 do it in such a civil way that most people 76 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.840 just struggle with that. But I love listening to it 77 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:55.000 because there's just every one of you guys has such 78 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:55.919 a wealth and knowledge. 79 00:03:57.960 --> 00:03:59.639 You know, we're a group of four heretics. 80 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.960 Oh you know, I love it. 81 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:05.560 We're used to that, so you know, we're used to 82 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:07.599 being treated that way. So we're trying to treat each 83 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.719 other more civilly. Absolutely. 84 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.000 Well, I guess for those that's living under a rock 85 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:18.199 and don't know much about you, what got you into 86 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:21.160 writing and what is the baseline of your books and 87 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.120 give people a feel of who Brian Goodowell is. 88 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:26.240 Well. 89 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:31.040 So I started out as a writer as a screenwriter, actually, 90 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:32.160 so many years ago. 91 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:33.800 That was my passion. 92 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:37.000 I love movies and I wanted to make movies that 93 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.759 would actually would honor God with a Christian worldview. 94 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.360 But I wanted to make movies in Hollywood, not Christian. 95 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:45.519 Movies, and so I said about doing that, And you know, 96 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:46.560 I've made a few movies. 97 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:47.759 It's been tough over the years. 98 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:50.519 Absolutely. Two und All Wars was my first movie that 99 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:54.879 got made, and that was like twenty eleven or no, 100 00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:00.680 what was it, two thousand? No, it was a two 101 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:04.600 thousand Oh my gosh, like two thousand and one. So yeah, 102 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:07.560 almost twenty years ago, that movie still holds up. Its 103 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:10.600 still I'm I'm the most proud of that, and that's 104 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:13.480 because I was the sole writer and we didn't have 105 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.920 time to get screwed up by studios and they, you know, 106 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.000 they had to stick to budget and keep going, and 107 00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:20.920 so they didn't have time to keep working on things 108 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:21.959 until they're bad, you know. 109 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:23.079 And I think that. 110 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:27.199 But also the director of the producer, and me is 111 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:31.000 the writer. We all worked cohesively together really well, and 112 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.839 I really respected the director's directing abilities as well. 113 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:37.360 So that was really fun and exciting. 114 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:41.160 But over the years, what happened was, I, you know, 115 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:43.879 you have you have some bad years in there. Everyone does, 116 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.399 even the most successful people do in Hollywood, you know, 117 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:51.040 and it forced me to sort of like consider other 118 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:54.199 writing possibilities. But what happened was was that I had 119 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:57.920 written a script about a Bible story that I thought 120 00:05:57.959 --> 00:05:59.279 would be great for Hollywood. 121 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:00.759 Hollywood would and. 122 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:02.720 It would be great for Christians because they would have 123 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:05.120 both that ancient world and you could get in some 124 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:08.480 mystical things and stuff that would be cool, and both 125 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:10.639 sides would be willing to accept it because it could 126 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.120 be big budget, et cetera. And that was a story 127 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.560 about Noah, and I'd done I'd done the research, and 128 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:20.079 then I found out that that Darren Aronovski was making 129 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.839 his movie. So I thought, well, you know what I'm 130 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:25.759 you know, I'm just a little guy. So I thought, 131 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:27.639 how can I get my story out? I know, it 132 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:30.199 probably wasn't going to be made as a movie, and 133 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.120 I realized, you know what, I need to make it 134 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:35.120 into a novel. And then that launched in That first 135 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:38.240 novel was called Noah Primeval that was based on the 136 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:39.399 original screenplay. 137 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.279 And what happened was that it really took off. 138 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:45.759 And of course, you know, I had the nuffling giants 139 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:49.480 in there, the watchers and you know, showing the supernatural 140 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:53.360 spiritual realm, which I had learned that in the process 141 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:55.680 of doing the research for the script. I had discovered 142 00:06:55.720 --> 00:06:59.199 Michael Heiser at that time, just before that actually and 143 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:01.639 so and this was before his book on Seeing Realm 144 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.759 was even It was actually just he was working on 145 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.480 it and it was free online. You could just read 146 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:08.199 it as he was working on it. It was called 147 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:10.519 The Myth That Is True or something like that. So 148 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:14.199 that was that opened my eyes because also he's an evangelical. 149 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.600 He was you know, he recently passed away, of course 150 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:21.160 sadly but so he was an evangelical scholar who believed 151 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:26.120 the Bible's God's word, but he also did not avoid 152 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.480 the more difficult passages, passages in the Bible that a 153 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.920 lot of evangelical scholarship does, you know, case and point 154 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.160 number one, case in point gens to six one through four. 155 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:40.120 And of course, you know, many scholars see the connotations 156 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:44.560 of connections with other ancient cultures like Greeks and surrounding 157 00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.439 Canaan and such, and they get frighted, they get frightful, 158 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:52.000 and they try to, you know, do word salad and 159 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:57.360 sort of cover up the similarities between pagan religions. And 160 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:00.000 then liberal scholars on the other hand, or critical scholar 161 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:02.519 that don't believe in the Bible, you know, they just go, yeah, 162 00:08:02.519 --> 00:08:04.600 it's all the same thing. They're all saying the same thing. 163 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:07.040 They're just getting their ideas from Greece and all this, 164 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:09.680 you know, which, interestingly, the truth is is the other 165 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.160 way around. Actually, Greece got their ideas from the ancient 166 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:14.680 Near East, so all the Titans and all that kind 167 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:18.279 of stuff comes from the Refeime and Canaan. But anyway, 168 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:20.399 you know, these so my point is is that these 169 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.279 similarities that are the oddities is Michael Heist would often say, 170 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:27.240 you know, if it's weird in the Bible, it's probably important. 171 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.279 And those those were His work opened up my eyes 172 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:33.440 to all those passages that I would just read, op 173 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:34.559 and go, that's weird. 174 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:35.960 I don't understand it. 175 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:38.879 I'll just keep moving, you know, deal with it some 176 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:41.279 other day, right or you know, you don't have to 177 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:44.919 understand it everything. So but I would avoid those things. Well, 178 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:49.960 so reading his work really opened my eyes, like I said, 179 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:53.000 in fact, I dedicated the first novel to him, and 180 00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:56.559 I said that his work opened my eyes like Ilicia's servant, 181 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:59.320 you know, was open to see the spiritual realms and 182 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:00.159 so to speak. 183 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.200 And that launched my my writing into that that world. 184 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:08.600 And when I saw that storyline in the Bible that 185 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:10.840 I now call the War of the Seed, which is, 186 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:13.000 as you know, the seed of the Serpent versus the 187 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:16.080 Seed of Eve, which is ultimately a messiah, right, well, 188 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.799 I saw that, but I also saw that dimension where 189 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:22.600 you know, giants like Goliath, they're not just anomalies or 190 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:26.279 the nepheling you know that you hear about in Genesis six. 191 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:29.320 And then they, of course the Anakin come into the 192 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:33.080 Promised Land and such, but very little is explained about 193 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:36.279 that stuff and and and and it's not just a 194 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:38.720 strange anomally. When I saw that it's all connected in 195 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:43.480 a theological messaging, that's what really opened. 196 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:45.879 My eyes and said, wow, I I could write. I 197 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:48.399 could write like a four four book series on this. 198 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.320 Well, now I've up to I'm up to like twelve books, 199 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:53.679 you know, because there's a lot to write about, you know. 200 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.080 And so that that that's where it began. And and 201 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.639 that was right when you know, Amazon kindall was just 202 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:01.759 it was, it had been out, but it was starting 203 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.600 to break away, and that my book did so well 204 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.679 that I realized, you know, I can I can make 205 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:10.240 a living off of this. I can do I can 206 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:13.200 make make some money and do what I really love 207 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.759 and make a living. That's that's a blessing that not 208 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:19.200 everyone gets, right, But I was just starting out, and 209 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:22.279 you know, I'm I'm not I'm not a great American novelist. Okay, 210 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:24.360 I'm a Hoigawood screenwriter. So I bring that kind of 211 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:27.639 sensitive sensibilities by writing. So I write my novels like 212 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:30.200 big Hollywood epics, you know, kind of like you're watching 213 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:32.559 the movie, right, So that was my idea, and then 214 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:36.000 you know, Chronicles and the nepheline was born, and that 215 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:39.159 went up to eight books, and it went through Abraham, Enoch, David, 216 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:41.639 a bunch of the characters through the Bible. And then 217 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.159 I realized, I'm not yet done, because I wanted to 218 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.000 bring in you know, the Book of Revelation, of course, 219 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.559 is very supernatural, right, and I thought, how does this 220 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:56.279 apply to the supernatural and my unique understanding of eschatology 221 00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:58.720 and the Book of Revelation, And so I wrote a 222 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:01.919 four book series called Chronicle, so the Apocalypse, and then 223 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:04.759 that follows the Chronicles of nephiling But then I realized 224 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:06.799 there are some stories in the Old Testament that I 225 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:09.960 didn't touch on that I need to address and then 226 00:11:10.000 --> 00:11:13.600 maybe bring it also into the future into like other countries, 227 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:17.279 say China or you know, Great Britain, that kind of thing. 228 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:19.919 So I started Chronicles of the Watchers, and that's sort 229 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:23.080 of interwoven with Chronicles and Nephilinges. So like I wrote 230 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:27.120 a story of Moses against the Gods of Egypt under 231 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.720 Chronicles the Watchers, but you can like read that before 232 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.559 you read Joshua Valiant in Chronicles and neo flings. So 233 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:35.919 they're all woven together and it's become this best selling 234 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:40.399 series and such and all that long windedness. But you know, 235 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.559 the I've always been an artist that was a visual artist, 236 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.320 and then my writing career was interested in Hollywood, and 237 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:49.559 then writing novels just came out of. 238 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:51.759 My love for for theology. 239 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.879 I wanted, I love to incorporate theology into my storytelling. 240 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.000 But the problem is most Christian movies and Christian books 241 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:03.120 and Christian music novels, that kind of stuff has been 242 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:08.759 rather poorly done and very preachy, etc. You know, And 243 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.559 that's because they don't value the craft as much as 244 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.360 the message. And over my years as a Christian, as 245 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:16.759 I studied the arts, and I was heavily influenced by 246 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:17.639 Francis Schaeffer. 247 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:19.320 Many of you probably don't even know who. 248 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:22.240 He is, but they Christian philosopher for back in the seventies, 249 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.200 and he opened my eyes to understanding. 250 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:28.399 How does my art glorify God? How does it connect 251 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:28.759 with God? 252 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:30.960 Not in terms of like, oh, I'm preaching the Gospel 253 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:32.559 through it, but how does art? 254 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:34.559 How does God himself see art? 255 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:38.519 Well, I developed what's called my esthetic in all those 256 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:42.919 years and particularly studying Hollywood storytelling, and so I came 257 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:43.679 out with some books. 258 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:45.919 One was called Hollywood world Views, How to Watch Movies 259 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:47.080 with Wisdom and Discernment. 260 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:50.440 That was for Christians, how to appreciate movies and storytelling better. 261 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:54.080 And then I wrote a couple other books on just 262 00:12:54.120 --> 00:12:56.559 the imagination. One's called The Imagination of God and the 263 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:58.679 other ones called God against the Gods. And there I 264 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:03.120 go into the Bible talk about how God loves imagination, 265 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.120 how he uses in other words, it's not just reason. 266 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.039 Reason is a part of our faith. 267 00:13:08.120 --> 00:13:11.000 So we have faith as a foundation, then we have 268 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:14.799 reason that is, you know, based on that foundation of 269 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.639 faith and works with it and balances each other out, 270 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:21.120 so to speak. But then there's the most neglected component, 271 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:24.360 you know. So you've got the overly rational people who 272 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.320 you know, just intellectualize everything. But then you also have 273 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:30.919 the emotional Christians who are just you know, bouncing around 274 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.480 off the chandeliers and stuff, thinking that, you know. 275 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:34.799 Religion is an emotion. 276 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.320 But somewhere in between is the Christian life incorporates both 277 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.279 of those things in balance, hopefully. But there's a third 278 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:45.159 one that's often left down. That's the imagination. And that 279 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:48.039 was That's been my purview because as an artist that 280 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:50.720 I just I love the imagination. But I always had 281 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:55.440 a hard time understanding, you know. I sought to understand 282 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:58.559 how my imagination worked with me as a Christian and 283 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:03.759 my art. But my later step, in my later years 284 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.960 of life was realizing and learning and studying how God 285 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:13.200 incorporates imagination into our understanding of Him and our theology. 286 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.320 It's not just the oh, it's okay to be creative, 287 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:19.879 it's no. Creativity is part of a necessary component of 288 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:23.120 understanding God. And that's why I wrote some of my 289 00:14:23.159 --> 00:14:26.320 other books to try to explain that that understanding, and 290 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.679 that led me, of course to the chapter we're going 291 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.960 to talk about, Act seventeen. Many years ago I wrote 292 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:34.639 an article on it. You can I put the article 293 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:37.559 in those books. You can read it in both both 294 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:40.039 of my books, The Imagination of God or God against 295 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:45.480 the Gods, which we'll talk about, but description, okay, sure, 296 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:51.240 so Act seventeen, you know was I also along the 297 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:55.039 many years of being a Christian, I have always had 298 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:57.960 a love for the intellect and for philosophy and apologetics. 299 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.039 In fact, I learned a lot of my theology through apologetics, 300 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:05.960 you know, studying the polts and false ideas and false 301 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.720 philosophies of man and then encountering it with God's word 302 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:11.919 in his Bible, and how does that integrate? And I've 303 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:15.799 always been drawn to that, And so when I came 304 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.679 to Act seventeen, I always understood there's many different, you know, 305 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.799 Christian apologetic schools of thoughts. There's several that are dominant, 306 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:26.919 and everyone tends to, you know, go to Act seventeen 307 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:31.480 as a model for how we should preach the Gospel 308 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:35.320 the Pagans, but also you know, sort of as a 309 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:37.200 model for apologetics. 310 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:44.279 Well, I understood that, and have learned a lot from that. 311 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:48.399 But I began to say, through the eyes of the 312 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:52.320 imagination and through the eyes of storytelling, and I came 313 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.159 up with a slightly different understanding I thought was a 314 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:58.120 little bit more appropriate to the ancient, original context in 315 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:02.559 which Paul was preaching. And it was an understanding of 316 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:07.960 that Paul was not just Paul was not was not 317 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:13.799 merely preaching the Gospel, and he was not merely you know, 318 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:20.000 using rational argumentation for the faith with unbelievers. He was 319 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.360 actually doing what I called subversion. 320 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:24.159 He was. 321 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:30.720 Retelling the ancient Stoic narrative, which was his audience. And 322 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.559 we'll go over these details, of course, but the big 323 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:38.240 picture is he was retelling the Pagan narrative, their narrative 324 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:42.519 of creation, fall and redemption, retelling it but using it 325 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:47.960 with redefined Christian categories of understanding. And now, of course 326 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:51.399 some of them have things in common. But well we'll 327 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:53.840 go through that and see how he made the difference. 328 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.399 But that's the big picture of you know, what Paul 329 00:16:56.519 --> 00:17:00.120 was doing is he's retelling a story. He's not just 330 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.240 merely engaging rational argumentation. In fact, you know, you could 331 00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:07.359 make the argument that there's more of storytelling than rational 332 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:13.160 argumentation in that in that passage, but there's definitely the 333 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.759 context that set up in Acts seventeen. You know if 334 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:19.160 we go there, Well, first of all, before we start 335 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.720 launch onto that, did you guys want to address anything 336 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.400 of that that I had said, I don't want to 337 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.720 just keep talking until. 338 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.480 Well, no, that's a conclusion that I drew from it. 339 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:31.279 When I was reading, I was like, you know, how 340 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.480 great was it that he met them where they were? 341 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.680 You know, you see Christians nowadays that are you know, 342 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:40.480 standing outside the abortion clinics and the gay bars with 343 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.799 their picket signs and screaming hate, you know, and things 344 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:45.839 like that. You know, you're not going to win souls 345 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:48.000 that way. You know, he met them where they were, 346 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.519 told them stories that were familiar to them, and just 347 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:54.240 kind of repackaged it in a way that they could understand. 348 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:56.039 I mean, and they accepted it so much. 349 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.160 I can't remember because I don't have the text in 350 00:17:58.200 --> 00:17:59.960 front of me, but they took him. The place they 351 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.440 took him to was the place where all the philosophers 352 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.440 gathered on this heel and pitched their ideas. So, I mean, 353 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:09.480 because of his presentation, they accepted him and they were 354 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:12.799 willing to listen, just like those in Thissalonica. You know 355 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:15.279 that they were eager to hear what he had to 356 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:17.079 say because of the way he packaged it. 357 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:19.359 I thought that was really really cool. 358 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:22.480 Exactly, So, the Areoplogus is where is the hill there 359 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:25.559 in Athens? There, and it was where they commonly went 360 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:28.359 to exchange. It's like the marketplace of ideas in a way. 361 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.880 It's kind of like Hollywood, right or you know, it's 362 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:34.759 it's or nowadays social media, I guess, in some ways. 363 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.160 But yeah, So so that was where. 364 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.400 They exchanged their new ideas and critique them, et cetera. 365 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.319 But you're right, that's also where the Pagans were. And 366 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:49.720 really it's the I believe it's the only presentation of 367 00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:53.119 the Gospel to Pagans that is in the New Testament, 368 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.400 which's very interesting. That's why a lot of people go 369 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:57.759 use it as a as a model, which is fine, 370 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:05.599 you know, but yeah, so what's interesting is, you know Paul, 371 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:08.279 you know you mentioned Paul is is uh, you know, 372 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:11.559 reaching them at their level, and this. 373 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:12.119 Is where they went. 374 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:16.920 Well, Luke is also depicting Paul as a kind of Socrates, 375 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.359 you know, and he's drawing from some images and some 376 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.640 concepts that were well known about Socrates. 377 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:24.839 So so he is sort of. 378 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:30.200 Depicting Paul within this Socratic context, you know, because for instance, 379 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:33.599 Paul starts out in Acts seventeen twenty two, he's standing 380 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.079 in the midst of ary Apagus. You know, he goes, 381 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:37.279 men of Athens. I perceive that in every way you 382 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:40.880 are very religious. Well, this statement men of Athens has 383 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:45.799 been is noted in several Greek writers like Aristotle and Demosthenes, 384 00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.880 and that's they would always begin their discussions men of Athens, right, 385 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.200 and then he says, I perceive you are very religious. 386 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:59.160 And this is also another something that that that the 387 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:02.880 uh example, the Athenian dramatist Sophocles, he said the same thing. 388 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.160 Ethens is a head of states, the most devout. You know, 389 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.079 you are such a religious people. So Paul is sort 390 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:13.039 of using their language and and and Luke is depicting 391 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.039 them that way. But I want to I want to 392 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:17.519 bring out something too, is that there are two dominant 393 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.519 streams of thought here at the time, and that was 394 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:29.640 the Stoics and the Epicureans. And Paul actually focuses on 395 00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:31.200 the Stoics storytelling. 396 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:33.720 He's you know, why, why is that the most important? 397 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:33.920 Is that? 398 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:35.759 I don't know, maybe there was another time where he 399 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:39.960 focused on Epicurean storytelling, but but this particular passage, we're 400 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:41.799 going to look at a lot of his points and 401 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:43.920