Speaker 1: To the second hour of the show. Anthony Rodriguez has
Speaker 1: turned into a pumpkin and has turned into zach Seeger
Speaker 1: for the next two hours. But that's okay because we
Speaker 1: have two more hours, not just four minutes, two more
Speaker 1: hours and joining me in the studio. Now, he used
Speaker 1: to be a police chief, but now he's just a
Speaker 1: guy without a uniform. His name is Paul Paysan, and
Speaker 1: he also happens to be a public safety fellow with
Speaker 1: a Common Sense Institute. Now, if you don't know what
Speaker 1: common Sense does, they look at the economic impact of
Speaker 1: a variety of different things, and in this case we're
Speaker 1: going to be talking about public safety. They also, in
Speaker 1: this study that we're going to talk about, look at
Speaker 1: the results of policies that are utilized by government in
Speaker 1: order to try and fight crime, or in some cases
Speaker 1: in Colorado, I would argue, make crime easier and more
Speaker 1: convenient for criminals. So, first of all, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Appreciate you coming in, Mandy, thank you, it's an honor
Speaker 2: to be here. And love the introduction. You actually nailed it.
Speaker 1: A man without a uniform there you get You're doing
Speaker 1: all right. Let's talk about this Colorado's crime and Aurora's
Speaker 1: experience with auto theft and guys. I promoted a different
Speaker 1: study because I asked the chief, I said, well, what
Speaker 1: study are we talking about today? Because I looked at
Speaker 1: the title of paperwork he's got and he said, oh,
Speaker 1: it's this one. I read this study. I just didn't
Speaker 1: promote his study. So if it makes you me seem crazy,
Speaker 1: well I'll just all.
Speaker 3: Cop to that.
Speaker 1: So this study specifically was about Aurora's experience with auto theft.
Speaker 1: We know that Colorado was number one in the country
Speaker 1: for auto thefts just like a year or two ago,
Speaker 1: Aurora decided to try and do something about it. Tell
Speaker 1: me first of all what they decided.
Speaker 2: To do well, it was a dubious title that no
Speaker 2: state would want to have number one in the entire
Speaker 2: country for auto theft, and that is per kapup per
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand residents.
Speaker 3: We didn't get.
Speaker 2: There on accident and really bad policy equals bad outcomes.
Speaker 2: We used to be one of the safest states in
Speaker 2: the entire country, with crime rates including auto theft, at
Speaker 2: or below.
Speaker 3: The national average.
Speaker 2: After we made some statewide policy changes, some state statute changes,
Speaker 2: we saw dramatic increases, not just in auto theft, but
Speaker 2: in property crimes, total crimes, and violent crimes. Now Aurora said, hey,
Speaker 2: we're not going to tolerate this anymore. And kudos to
Speaker 2: them for standing up and saying this is not what
Speaker 2: we want for the people that live, work, in play
Speaker 2: in our community, and they enacted a tough city ordinance
Speaker 2: to address auto theft and with.
Speaker 1: The Resultsman, because it's very frustrating for me, and we've
Speaker 1: seen this happen so much in the legislature. Whenever you
Speaker 1: talk about making crime more difficult, there's always this little
Speaker 1: group of harpies in the background that said more cops
Speaker 1: does not equal less crime. We know, we have statistics,
Speaker 1: and I get wanting to allow people to have a chance.
Speaker 1: I get having a system where rehabilitation is a part
Speaker 1: of it, a big part of it. But what I
Speaker 1: don't get is the notion that somehow we're going to
Speaker 1: make excuses for people that are going to commit crimes
Speaker 1: before they even commit them and then let them off the.
Speaker 2: Hook, which is what we did with gar theft. That's
Speaker 2: exactly that, Mandy. I wish I could just take you
Speaker 2: with me and you could rephrase that or say that
Speaker 2: over and over again. Because that's exactly what happened in
Speaker 2: the state of Colorado. I am the first one to
Speaker 2: raise my hand and say I believe in rehabilitation. However,
Speaker 2: I believe in accountability. And if we make excuses for
Speaker 2: criminal behavior, we are going to continue to see outpaced
Speaker 2: crime rates greater than the national average. And what Common
Speaker 2: Sense Institute does is it looks at the economic impact
Speaker 2: now crime and the fear of crime drives the behavior
Speaker 2: of a community.
Speaker 3: If people are afraid to live, work, or play.
Speaker 2: In a community, to go to work, to go to
Speaker 2: the grocery store, to cross the street and go to
Speaker 2: the park, they're going to make different choices. And sometimes
Speaker 2: those choices are no longer being residents of the beautiful
Speaker 2: state of Colorado. They will move to places where they
Speaker 2: feel safer, where that economic impact isn't as pronounced as
Speaker 2: it is here.
Speaker 1: I have a tiny anecdote about this. Yesterday I posted
Speaker 1: something on the blog about Auroras having an international food
Speaker 1: festival and they want looking for nominations. Just gott a
Speaker 1: throwaway story. I got an email that said I would
Speaker 1: never go eat in Aura because I love a war's
Speaker 1: food scene. I think it's amazing. It's all these international
Speaker 1: flavors and I would never go eat in Aurora. That's
Speaker 1: the kind of perception issue that has a direct economic impact.
Speaker 1: Is that kind of what you're talking about here.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it. If you do not prioritize public safety,
Speaker 2: If people don't feel safe in your community, they will
Speaker 2: not go and shop in your city, they will not
Speaker 2: live in your city. They will make choices based on
Speaker 2: safety safety Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's foundational governments first
Speaker 2: role is the protection, safety and security of its residents,
Speaker 2: and we.
Speaker 3: Have to prioritize that.
Speaker 2: And that hasn't been the priority for the elected officials,
Speaker 2: the decision makers, the people in power, who have watered
Speaker 2: down who've made excuses for criminal behavior, who have erased
Speaker 2: a lot of the accountability, not just for auto theft,
Speaker 2: but we're talking about hard drugs like fentanyl, cocaine, methamphetamine
Speaker 2: that we've watered down penalties. We've also watered down penalties
Speaker 2: went with regards to bond and letting people out on
Speaker 2: serious crimes on PR bonds or what they've done is
Speaker 2: they created monetary bonds of one dollar two dollars, which
Speaker 2: effectively is a PR bond. So when crime goes up
Speaker 2: and we don't hold people accountable.
Speaker 3: We shouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 1: So how is this worked out from Aurora in terms
Speaker 1: of how are their card safts different than the rest
Speaker 1: of the state, and especially say, I'd love to know
Speaker 1: their neighbors. What that looks like?
Speaker 2: Oh, perfect intro into the report itself. So again in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, Aurora said, no more, We're not going
Speaker 2: to tolerate this. We are going to hold accountable individuals
Speaker 2: who steal that car from a young family that's struggling,
Speaker 2: a single mom who needs that car to get the
Speaker 2: kids to school, to go to the grocery store. They're
Speaker 2: going to say we will hold people accountable to include
Speaker 2: a mandatory jail sentence for individuals caught stealing cars.
Speaker 3: And what the report has shown.
Speaker 2: Is that they have a dramatic decrease in auto thefts
Speaker 2: in their city. The projected model is they have reduced
Speaker 2: auto thefts in Aurora during that time period by at
Speaker 2: least seven hundred and twenty three auto thefts. Wow, seven
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty three fewer victims of that particular crime.
Speaker 2: And what also gets missed in this is off in
Speaker 2: times a stolen car is involved in another higher level crimes, Yes,
Speaker 2: higher level violent crimes. And if you're able to reduce
Speaker 2: seven hundred and twenty three crimes in your city, you're
Speaker 2: also impacting those higher level violent crimes. So they're making progress.
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what this report shows.
Speaker 1: One of the things I've always wondered as just like
Speaker 1: a normal citizen who doesn't have a lot of contact
Speaker 1: with criminals that I know of, is are criminals are
Speaker 1: they up to speed on these laws? Because you know,
Speaker 1: you would think that, I mean a lot of these
Speaker 1: criminals are not the sharpest people in the sharpest tool
Speaker 1: in the shed, because they would be doing something more
Speaker 1: productive if they were. But they do know the laws,
Speaker 1: so do they know where they are? They're not going
Speaker 1: to steal a car? And Aurora, is it that calculated?
Speaker 2: It becomes that calculated when you publicly announced that we're
Speaker 2: going to hold people accountable, as George Brockler did recently
Speaker 2: with his new position. He put the boundaries up said hey,
Speaker 2: if you can make crimes in this area, I will
Speaker 2: hold you accountable to the fullest extent of the law.
Speaker 2: That is a deterrence effect that lets people know, hey,
Speaker 2: they're serious there, and that's exactly what Aurora did in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and the report bears that out that
Speaker 2: they're having greater success than the rest of the state. Now,
Speaker 2: I believe that their actions help push the state because
Speaker 2: the following year, the state of Colorado said, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: us defelonizing auto theft right excusing criminal behavior has had
Speaker 2: a negative impact on us.
Speaker 3: That led to the.
Speaker 2: Number one per Kappa crime in the entire country. And
Speaker 2: so they refelonized this crime and we saw a decrease
Speaker 2: in the.
Speaker 3: Rest of the state.
Speaker 2: However, Aurora's leadership in this help nudge the state of Colorado,
Speaker 2: and their results are better than what the state has done.
Speaker 1: So, you guys have done studies in the past about
Speaker 1: specifically like how policies affect all of this stuff. Hasn't
Speaker 1: been consistent across all of these different studies that you've done.
Speaker 1: Do you see a consistent theme that when you invest
Speaker 1: more in law enforcement you see a lower rate of crime.
Speaker 1: Do we now have a statistical body of evidence that would.
Speaker 2: Allow us to say that we at the Common Sense Institute,
Speaker 2: we really look at this from that economic picture frame market.
Speaker 3: We want to make sure that we can.
Speaker 2: Show cost benefit analysis that we're talking about here whether
Speaker 2: investing in public safety has those downstream positive impacts, and
Speaker 2: it does, it absolutely does.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 2: For example, the economic impact in Aurora of that reduction
Speaker 2: in auto thefts is more than sixteen million dollars that
Speaker 2: they have saved for their community. There is a cost
Speaker 2: per crime, and auto theft in particular, it's about fifteen
Speaker 2: thousand dollars in direct costs, but there's also indirect costs
Speaker 2: associated with the adjudication, investigation, incarceration that pushes that number
Speaker 2: closer to twenty thousand per crime. Now, same way, if
Speaker 2: we utilized Aurora's approach for all crime in the state
Speaker 2: of Colorado, we would see a one point eight billion
Speaker 2: billion with a b dollar savings for the people of Colorado.
Speaker 1: And that's just on the cost of the crime itself, right,
Speaker 1: And then we're not even talking about and I'm going
Speaker 1: to use downtown Denver as an example. You were police
Speaker 1: chief in Denver and I have spoken with police officers
Speaker 1: in Denver. I have some that email me on a
Speaker 1: regular basis, and they have been so frustrated over the
Speaker 1: years because they are arresting people and before they can
Speaker 1: finish the paperwork, the people are already out again. It's
Speaker 1: been a very frustrating cycle, and now we see a
Speaker 1: situation in downtown Denver in my view, that we have
Speaker 1: enough of a perception a violent crime backed up by
Speaker 1: things like a fly attendant and a man being murdered
Speaker 1: on the sixteenth Street mall not too long ago, and
Speaker 1: yet I personally do not feel that either the Denversity
Speaker 1: Council nor the mayor are giving nearly enough credence to
Speaker 1: that public safety component. But I'll tell you this, I
Speaker 1: don't drive my car downtown anymore. I don't go downtown
Speaker 1: for dinner and a show. I don't spend nearly as
Speaker 1: much time downtown as I did before because I don't
Speaker 1: know if my car is going to be broken into,
Speaker 1: or it's even going to be there when I get back,
Speaker 1: depending on where I am. So in terms of the
Speaker 1: economic impact of these crimes, I feel like I don't
Speaker 1: understand why people don't understand that should be the first
Speaker 1: piece to your point. What can citizens do to drive
Speaker 1: the point home that? Because everybody's howling about public safety,
Speaker 1: but yet it seems to be bouncing off the people
Speaker 1: who can actually do something about it.
Speaker 2: So thanks for sharing that, And actually, I think you
Speaker 2: are very articulately making the point that public safety matters
Speaker 2: right right, that people make decisions based on their safety
Speaker 2: and the safety of the people that they love and
Speaker 2: care about, and they make decisions on where they're going
Speaker 2: to shop, on where they're going to recreate based on
Speaker 2: safety needs as well.
Speaker 3: So it is foundational.
Speaker 2: That city governments, state governments, federal governments must protect their citizenry.
Speaker 2: That is first and foremost for people to have a
Speaker 2: high quality of life. Now, all of that being said,
Speaker 2: this report is actually quite timely. What can citizens do?
Speaker 2: What can community members do when they realize that the
Speaker 2: public safety really is a critical component of their overall
Speaker 2: quality of life is they can see how these laws
Speaker 2: are impacting them. Right now as we speak, in the
Speaker 2: Colorado State legislature, they don't like what Aurora has done.
Speaker 2: They're enacting a bill that they will say, hey, cities, you.
Speaker 3: Can't do this anymore.
Speaker 2: Even though you're prioritizing public safe at a higher level
Speaker 2: than we do, you cannot do this moving forward. And
Speaker 2: there's legislation where it says you cannot have penalties higher
Speaker 2: than what.
Speaker 3: The state does.
Speaker 2: Well, what I will tell you is if we're leaving
Speaker 2: public safety up to the folks in the state legislature
Speaker 2: who have made these watered down laws beginning in.
Speaker 3: Twenty eighteen nineteen.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty, the laws that mandate that repeat offenders must
Speaker 2: be released from jail within four hours, How does that.
Speaker 3: Make any sense?
Speaker 1: How does it make anyone safer?
Speaker 2: Exactly? And when they defelainize fentanol, the most deadly poisoned
Speaker 2: drug that we have, it used to be a felony.
Speaker 2: They thought it was a good idea to turn it.
Speaker 3: Into a misdemeanor.
Speaker 2: Meth Amphetamine, cocaine, heroin, deadly serious drugs they have decategorized defelinized.
Speaker 3: And what this shows is.
Speaker 2: This is one city's attempt to take public safety seriously
Speaker 2: and they're having positive results. What should be happening is
Speaker 2: folks saying, wait, we can hold people accountable, we can
Speaker 2: reduce crime, and yes, we can also focus on rehabilitation
Speaker 2: on the backside, so that when this person gets out,
Speaker 2: they're not stealing cars in the future. But you still
Speaker 2: have to hold them accountable for those criminal actions.
Speaker 3: That they took in the first place.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be ironic if essentially the same makeup the
Speaker 1: legislature that made it easier for communities to make it
Speaker 1: harder for a citizen to own a gun then decided
Speaker 1: that the communities can't make it harder for criminals to
Speaker 1: do a crime. That's where we are in Colorado. It
Speaker 1: is so it doesn't make any sense to me. It's
Speaker 1: super frustrating. We got a text message on the Common
Speaker 1: Spirit Health text line you can text your questions in
Speaker 1: at five sixty six nine. Oh, this texter said, Hey, Mandy,
Speaker 1: former addict and criminal here. If I wasn't held accountable,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to say former And I think
Speaker 1: that you know what is your take? And on the
Speaker 1: economic impact? Oh, actually, somebody just asked this question. Hey Mandy,
Speaker 1: please ask Paul if he thinks marijuana becoming decriminalized as
Speaker 1: a major player in the crimes rise here. Have you
Speaker 1: guys studied the criminal economic impact of legalization, because that's
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a libertarian, small l libertarian at heart, right,
Speaker 1: So I was like, sure, legalized pot, seeing what it's
Speaker 1: done to Denver and seeing what has changed here since
Speaker 1: even I moved here in twenty thirteen, because in part coincidentally,
Speaker 1: at the same time, I'm not sure to feel that
Speaker 1: way anymore. You know, have you guys analyzed the impact
Speaker 1: economically of that decision.
Speaker 2: Yes. Actually, it's a very recent report and a fellow
Speaker 2: fellow I love saying, fellow fellow Mitch Morrissey. He's the
Speaker 2: former DA attorney in Denver, and this report is no
Speaker 2: more than a month old, and it looks at marijuana
Speaker 2: as well as the impact that marijuana has on additional
Speaker 2: drugs the costs associated with that. One area that truly
Speaker 2: is underreported, that it's not talked about enough is the
Speaker 2: direct link between high potency THC and the increased levels
Speaker 2: in psychosis. It is causing mental health crisises in communities
Speaker 2: where you see, in particular, there's a Mayo clinic report,
Speaker 2: a Cleveland clinic, additional studies that are coming out on
Speaker 2: a regular basis that are saying this is driving psychosis
Speaker 2: mental health diagnoses, particularly in boys age sixteen to twenty four.
Speaker 2: So we are causing more harm in our community by
Speaker 2: having the essentially the wild wild West. It's unregulated the
Speaker 2: amount of THCHC, and that is causing long term harms
Speaker 2: in our society.
Speaker 1: Fascinating stuff. They're doing all of this stuff at the
Speaker 1: common Sense Institute, and it's not all of about crime.
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys really do. And I love the
Speaker 1: way the reports are written in such a way that
Speaker 1: you can draw your own conclusions. You're not sitting here
Speaker 1: telling people here's what the data is, and here's what
Speaker 1: you should think it is. Here's what the data is.
Speaker 1: You can make your own choices in your own decisions.
Speaker 1: So Paul Pasan so appreciates you coming in on this issue.
Speaker 1: And I'm a huge fan of what's happening in Aurora.
Speaker 1: In my job, one of the things I get to
Speaker 1: do is I get to choose to watch things. When
Speaker 1: I first got my first show in two thousand and five,
Speaker 1: one of the first things I talked about was Venezuela
Speaker 1: at the time, still under Hugo Chavez, and I told
Speaker 1: my listeners, you guys, we're going to get to see
Speaker 1: the fall of this country in real time because everything
Speaker 1: that I saw, they were headed off a cliff and
Speaker 1: we've gotten to do that. I'm watching, and have been watching,
Speaker 1: what's happening in Aurora under an aggressive city council, under
Speaker 1: a supportive mayor who really want to provide a vibrant, safe,
Speaker 1: beautiful place for people. To live in Aurora, Colorado, and
Speaker 1: I think it's a fascinating sort of side by side
Speaker 1: study with Aurora and Denver. I think that's going to
Speaker 1: be something to watch going forward, whether it's how they're
Speaker 1: dealing with homelessness, how they're dealing with all of the
Speaker 1: other issues. It's just we have this real time case
Speaker 1: study and we get to watch it from afar and
Speaker 1: hope everything works out.
Speaker 2: You're exactly right on that, and I think that you know,
Speaker 2: as you described and whether or not people will go
Speaker 2: there for the International Food Festival things of that nature,
Speaker 2: they'll go there if they feel safe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they'll go to downtown Denver if they feel.
Speaker 2: Safe, exactly. And this is showing that they're taking it serious.
Speaker 2: Some of the recent policy changes that they publicly announce.
Speaker 3: They're saying it.
Speaker 2: Publicly, and why are they saying it publicly? To provide
Speaker 2: that deterrence impact and reduce the crime from prevent the
Speaker 2: crime from occurring in the first place.
Speaker 1: And that's why you had George Brockler surrounded by law
Speaker 1: enforcement officers having a press conference to say, if you
Speaker 1: come to the twenty third and do something, you're going
Speaker 1: to jail.
Speaker 2: That's exactly it and I.
Speaker 1: Live in the twenty third, so I'm here for it.
Speaker 1: Here board former chief Paul Paige, and I really appreciate
Speaker 1: your time today. Thank you so much for coming in.
Speaker 1: And this is great work coming out of the Common Senses.
Speaker 1: And Ross Whiskey is now an economic fellow there, so
Speaker 1: that's kind kind of some I got one more question, Mandy.
Speaker 1: Can you ask if the use of pot has any
Speaker 1: connection to the use of hard drugs. Is that something
Speaker 1: you guys have looked at in terms of the Gateway
Speaker 1: drug situation.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I would encourage folks to take a look
Speaker 2: at that most recent report from Mitch Morrissey. It's very detailed.
Speaker 2: It shows exactly in line graphs how the impact of
Speaker 2: marijuana has had on the more dangerous, more serious the
Speaker 2: types of drugs that have killed, poisoned so many of
Speaker 2: our fellow Coloradoms.
Speaker 1: I put a link to this report about a war,
Speaker 1: but you can also that's going to take your right
Speaker 1: to common sense this website, so you can go ahead
Speaker 1: and check it out there. We will talk again in
Speaker 1: the future, sir. We will be right back. Keep it
Speaker 1: on KOA