WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.879 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 6 00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:32.719 journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:45.840 Good evening, October twenty fifth, twenty twenty three was just 8 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:50.479 an ordinary knight in Lewistown, a small, working class city 9 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:55.719 of thirty seven thousand in central Maine. Friends and families 10 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:59.079 had gathered at a bowling alley called Just in Time 11 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:05.120 Recreation Center and Schemengi's, a popular sports bar and restaurant. 12 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.959 They felt immune from the violent crime that seemed to 13 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:11.959 rack the rest of the country. In a state that 14 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:17.519 the FBI had just named the safest in America. Then 15 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:22.519 Robert card the Second, a deeply paranoid Army reserved soldier, 16 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:27.400 walked into both places with a high powered rifle and 17 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:33.959 open fire, killing eighteen people and wounding thirteen more. He 18 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:37.640 then fled to a third location, where, according to the 19 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:41.599 evidence and the testimony of his best friend, he likely 20 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.439 planned to lay in wait and kill his ex co 21 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:49.640 workers when they came to work the next morning. The 22 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.200 tragedy is that the numerous red flags he had raised 23 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.200 in the months before weren't enough to stop him before 24 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:02.519 he carried out his terrible plan. A combination of watered 25 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:06.760 down gun control laws and law enforcement and military negligence 26 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:12.560 made sure of that. In The Lewiston Shootings, An All 27 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:18.759 American Tragedy, author and award winning journalist Robert Conlin traces 28 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:22.199 the shootings that deeply scarred a community that thought it 29 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.479 was the last place on Earth where a mass shooting 30 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:28.960 would take place. The book that we're featuring this evening 31 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:34.919 is The Lewiston Shootings, An All American Tragedy, with my 32 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:42.360 special guest, former journalist, longtime main resident, and author, Robert Conlin. 33 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:45.520 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 34 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:50.800 this interview. Robert Conlin, Yes, Hi, thanks very much for 35 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.159 having me, Dan, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. 36 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:56.919 And congratulations on the Lewiston shootings. 37 00:02:57.520 --> 00:02:58.680 Thank you, Jan. Thanks. 38 00:03:00.120 --> 00:03:05.439 Let's start off with the central character in this Robert Card, 39 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:10.159 the second or known why most people as Robbie, his 40 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:11.680 father Robert Sr. 41 00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:12.879 And his mother Janna. 42 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.400 Just tell us a little bit about Robert Carr and 43 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:21.599 his background before we start talking about this incredible rampage. 44 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.280 Yeah, he Robert Carr the second, not junior with the second, 45 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:27.599 grew up in the small town of Bowden, which is 46 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:32.560 a town of about three thousand people just in close 47 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:36.680 to central close to central Maine in Sagatahawk County inland 48 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:40.840 from the coast, just probably twenty miles. Yeah, a very 49 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.479 small community and located about fifteen miles from Lewiston, the 50 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:50.479 city of Lewison itself. The family was a farm family, 51 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.719 dairy farm and then eventually cattle and also various other things. 52 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:59.319 It's like a lot of people in Maine. It's do 53 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:01.759 a number of things to make a living. So I 54 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:05.240 know his father worked as an electrician and as well 55 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:09.199 as running the farm. And Robert the second was forty 56 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:13.319 years old that at the time these shootings occurred. He 57 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:17.240 had gone away to college for a year or two 58 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:21.759 and then came back to Bowden. He went to the 59 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:25.519 University of Maine for engineering, but couldn't afford it. He 60 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.360 got married at a very young age to his high 61 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:32.439 school sweetheart and they had a son, but they weren't 62 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:35.040 married that long and I spent some time with his 63 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:38.519 ex wife, who was gracious enough to really help me 64 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:42.439 understand who he was. He joined the Army Reserve when 65 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.439 he get when he when he left college, and the 66 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:49.360 Army Reserve was a is a is a one weekend 67 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:53.040 a month commitment and two weeks annually per year, and 68 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:56.439 they act obviously in a reserve capacity, not they get 69 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:58.720 confused a lot of the national guarret here in the States, 70 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.319 But the Army Reserve is under the command of the 71 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:07.639 Department of Defense, just like the Army is. However, the soldiers, 72 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:11.079 it's a little bit different in terms of their responsibility 73 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:15.920 to the soldiers that they only have jurisdiction over the 74 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:19.639 soldiers when they're on duty, so that one weekend a 75 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:22.399 month and two weeks a year, which became an issue 76 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:26.079 certainly in the case of in the case of his 77 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.040 mental health treatment and his deterioration. But in any event, 78 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:32.319 he was a truck driver for pretty much all of 79 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:34.720 his adult life, very good at it, I guess. They 80 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:38.439 had a tendency to bounce around from job's job, and 81 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:40.759 that's how he supported himself. Although he was he was 82 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:43.439 an outdoorsman. Like a lot of people in Maine, are 83 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:46.439 pretty rural state, and so people like to hunt and 84 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:52.639 fish and go four wheeling and snowmobiling and et cetera. 85 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:54.600 So he you know, those are all things that he did. 86 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:59.279 He was also an avid cornhole player in cornhole and 87 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:03.480 this this really popular game board game with the beam 88 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:08.000 bag toss thing, so he entered in all kinds of tournaments. 89 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:11.360 Also a horseshoe player, So that's pretty much who he 90 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:15.920 was in the lead up to the shootings in October 91 00:06:16.360 --> 00:06:17.319 twenty twenty three. 92 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:21.199 Tell us about the kinds of skills that he acquired 93 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.000 in the training he had in the Army Reserve. 94 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:28.000 He actually signed up his MOS His occupation was a 95 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:33.040 petroleum specialist, so refueling. But the unit did he eventually, 96 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:35.319 and they moved, you know, they moved around from unit 97 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:41.000 to unit. They tended to change in morph and consolidate 98 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:44.600 units from different places. So eventually he ended up at 99 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:50.079 the unit based in Saco, Maine in southern Maine, and 100 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:55.040 that unit was responsible for training West Point Cadets at 101 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:58.920 the academy in West Point, the new recruits that come 102 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:04.720 in the cadets and they trained them in machine guns, grenades, 103 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:08.240 automatic rifles, and so they would go there for two 104 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.920 weeks every summer, I think for a period of about 105 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.199 eight years he did that and they would train the cadets, 106 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:22.639 and he primarily trained them on grenade throwing, and that ultimately, 107 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:24.600 I think also became an issue in terms of his 108 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:27.759 mental health, as they discovered when they did some brain 109 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.680 scans on him later after he died. 110 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:35.199 Let's talk about some of that other training and included marksmanship. 111 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:40.879 And in the beginning he enlisted, he thought suredly that 112 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.839 he would see some action in Iraq. 113 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:47.120 He thought, oh yeah, oh yeah, so you know right 114 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:50.560 after nine to eleven, so almost in anybody who went 115 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:53.319 the military then, you know, even going into the reserves, 116 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:57.040 would have expected to see some combat. You had Afghanistan 117 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:01.360 and then Iraq, and it was just sheer happenstance that 118 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:03.519 he was not called up to any kind of active 119 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.040 duty combat duty. You know, some some members of the 120 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.680 unit were called up. It's not they don't go over 121 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:13.360 in mass as a unit, so it depends on their mos, 122 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:17.079 their occupation, and it just so happened that they didn't 123 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:18.519 have a need for him at the time as a 124 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:22.560 petroleum specialist. So he never did do that, and he 125 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.639 spent a pretty you know, benign twenty years in the 126 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:30.279 Army reserve training certainly, and they were they were they 127 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.159 were highly trained. It wasn't like they were just stumbling around, 128 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:35.639 you know, with no with no idea of how to 129 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.759 conduct themselves as soldiers. They were soldiers. They they went 130 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:42.679 to a regular basic training just like any Army soldier. 131 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:45.799 And they and they had training over the course of 132 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:49.919 all those years. So he was a qualified marchman, you know, 133 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:53.639 was was well versed in tactics like any soldier. 134 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.559 Tell us about his teen teenage sweetheart, Caro Lamb and 135 00:08:58.799 --> 00:08:59.600 their marriage. 136 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:02.639 Yeah, she they've been in high school. She went to 137 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:05.159 a different high school than him, but just just one 138 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:08.120 town over. And you know, she explained to me she 139 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:10.720 was kind of young and dumb and puppy love. She 140 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:14.600 did say that, and initially the it didn't last long. 141 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:21.039 The you know, the the romance sort of faded pretty quickly. 142 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:23.399 She said. He was more or less my way the 143 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:27.080 highway kind of guy. Anybody else who would have talked 144 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:29.799 about him said he was very dependable and steady, reliable, 145 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:33.679 not quick to anger. She you know, saw a little 146 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:35.039 bit of a different side of him, I think, and 147 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:39.120 you know, after I think it was five years. She 148 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:40.879 was trying to get him to go to marriage counseling 149 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:44.840 and he refused, said he wouldn't learn anything. So she 150 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.600 asked for a divorce and he was very, very angry 151 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:51.240 and bitter about that, and they had a very a 152 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:55.320 lot of animosity in the post years after the divorce 153 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:58.919 when they were raising their son, which you know, they 154 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.399 he more or less and talked to her, and when 155 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.639 he did, he was very very brusque and she, you know, 156 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.240 it was a tough period for her, and I think 157 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:11.279 she did her best to raise her son without any 158 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:13.039 real input from him. She said he was a good 159 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.720 father to her, to his son, but not a good 160 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:19.159 father to raise a son with. 161 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:25.320 You mentioned the son Colby, But there we get to 162 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:28.440 the point that Colby is actually living with his father 163 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:34.039 in a trailer, and the reason he goes back living 164 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.720 with his mother is what. 165 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.840 His father said that he wanted to have his friend, 166 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:44.200 staff Sergeant Sean Hodgson, who was in the same unit 167 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:47.200 with him and he had met many years before. I 168 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:51.679 think they were friends for seventeen years. He wanted to 169 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:55.600 move him into his bedroom in the trailer, and by 170 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:59.440 that time there were signs to his son certainly that 171 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:02.320 his father there's mental health was starting to deteriorate and 172 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:09.279 some pretty pretty obvious signs that things weren't going well 173 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:11.559 with him. So he he asked him to leave, and 174 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:14.159 he and his son did and went back to live 175 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:18.440 with his mother. His son was only seventeen. I think 176 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:21.159 it might have been eighteen at the time, but it 177 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:22.519 was just graduating high school. 178 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:29.200 So did Sean Hodgins move into the trailer with cart. 179 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.279 He did for a short while and then he left 180 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:34.759 after I think it was I think it was a 181 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:39.720 few months. And he was also getting some real strong, 182 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:42.720 you know, some strong signals that things were not right 183 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:45.759 with his friend, and he developed a real concern for 184 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:50.000 him really in the in the in about a year's 185 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:53.480 lead up to the shootings, you know, it progressively got 186 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:55.840 worse and worse, and we can talk about what the 187 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.039 real signs were at anytime, but yeah, his friend was 188 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:01.039 starting to get really concerned. His son was starting to 189 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:03.639 get really concerned. His son passed that concern on to 190 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:08.759 his mother, Card's ex wife, and his sister and family 191 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:13.519 were also concerned. They were his brother. He was close 192 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:17.600 to his brother and his sister Nicole, who wasn't necessarily 193 00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:21.519 close to, but she was, you know, getting indications from 194 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:24.559 the rest of the family that things were really not 195 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:27.159 going well. And the sister in law was a nurse. 196 00:12:27.799 --> 00:12:31.759 Ryan Card's wife who was close to him, also noticed 197 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:37.000 you know, some really really bizarre behavior and concerning signs. 198 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:42.759 What was he saying specifically, what were some of the 199 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:49.919 source of hallucination or delusion that he was spouting. 200 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:52.960 His you know, his sole focus seemed to be on 201 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:58.200 the fact that he thought that virtually everybody in his 202 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:01.840 orbit was calling him a pedophile. It started out with strangers, 203 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:03.440 you know, they would go, he would go with his 204 00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:07.759 son to home depot and insists that he could hear 205 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:10.440 ya just got these new hearing aids, by the way, 206 00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:15.159 because he did have hearing difficulties, and they were bluetooth 207 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:17.679 enabled hearing aids, but they were giving him a lot 208 00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:21.120 of he was having a hard time adjusting them, so 209 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:24.080 he would be picking up on conversations from far away, 210 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:27.600 or he was getting a lot of distortion and would 211 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:29.720 shut them off and then not be able to hear 212 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:33.240 well at all. So he was claiming that he was 213 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:36.440 hearing people from a you know, from quite a distance away. 214 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.879 Saying that he was a pedophile, and that it started 215 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:44.320 out was you know, just strangers, and eventually as time 216 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.279 went on over that period of that year, he insisted 217 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.080 the adverse that everybody was calling, including his own son, 218 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:56.919 his family, his friend. So he that was really seemed 219 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:59.919 to be the sole focus of his his parent. 220 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:04.399 You're right about this job he had as a driver 221 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:10.399 for a recycling plant. And interestingly, where possibly he might 222 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:14.759 have this this gossip might have possibly come from. 223 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.759 The recycling plant is called Main Recycling in a town 224 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:23.919 of Lisbon, about ten miles from Lewiston. He worked there 225 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:27.519 for I believe it was close to two years, and 226 00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:31.240 his friend Hodgson also worked there with him. So I 227 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:34.000 got some of this information from Hodgson and some from 228 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:38.360 just public sources. But he told his friend, and he 229 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:43.080 told his sister that someone at Main Recycling claimed that 230 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.279 he was on the sex offender registry and essentially called 231 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.039 him a pedophile. That seems to be the source of 232 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:53.320 the origin of the whole fixation on being called a pedophile. 233 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:58.159 His sister told me that she went on to the 234 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.919 sex offender Registry online to look to see if that 235 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:05.879 was the case. If you know, somebody was claiming that 236 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:08.080 he was honest. She wanted to just try to find 237 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:10.679 out because he seemed to be so fixated on that idea, 238 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:13.559 and she wanted to just let him know that it 239 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:15.960 wasn't the case. But when so, she did go on 240 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.679 and she did do a sert, and she didn't find him. Ultimately, 241 00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:22.600 it turns out there was a Robit card on the 242 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:25.840 sex offender industry, same exact name, which is not a 243 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.559 common name, by the way, so it's it's pretty it's 244 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:32.879 a pretty random happenstance that there is a Robert card 245 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:36.840 on the sex offender registry. His birthday was eerily similar 246 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:39.600 to the other Rubbit card. I think it was like 247 00:15:40.519 --> 00:15:44.759 four three eighty four versus four four eighty three, so 248 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:48.000 they were about the same age. They didn't necessarily look alike, 249 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.639 but you didn't if you weren't good with faces, you 250 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:53.799 might say, well that's a you know, a different picture 251 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.759 or a different time or whatever. You could see some similarity, certainly, 252 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.720 but she she didn't see that person. And had she 253 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:04.480 had seen as she could have gone back and said, no, no, no, 254 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:07.600 this is a mistake. This is another guy. They got 255 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.200 you confused with somebody else. But she did not see 256 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.840 it when she did her search. When I looked into that, 257 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.000 I went on the registry myself and I started to 258 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:20.159 dig around a little bit. And then because I was wondering, 259 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:23.440 why would why would they be looking on the registry 260 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.000 for Robert card And as it turns out that particular 261 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:29.919 place where he worked had at least a dozen employees 262 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.919 that were on the sex offender industry. I think just 263 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:36.919 got mixed up in his head, the whole toxic stew 264 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:37.320 of things. 265 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.440 Let's this is as an opportunity to stop to hear 266 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:47.120 these messages. Now, let's talk about the people, including Ryan 267 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:53.399 and Sean Hodgens, and what they did in reacting to this, 268 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:58.279 to their friend Robert Carr's bizarre behavior, who did they 269 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:03.480 speak to and the members of Bravo Company, his other soldiers, 270 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:08.480 fellow soldiers noticed his mental deterioration, What was noted and 271 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:11.799 who did they speak to about his mental health? 272 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.680 It was noted in early in the spring of twenty 273 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:19.759 twenty three, some members of his unit were hearing the 274 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:21.559 same thing with other people. At that point, we're hearing 275 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:24.599 that they were pedophiles, or or he was hearing pedophiles. 276 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:29.559 Everybody's calling him a pedofile, and they had internally had conversations, 277 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:34.079 but it really sort of became public when his son 278 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:38.240 went to the school resource officer at his high school 279 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:42.440 with his mother and they ended up calling the local 280 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:48.039 sheriff's deputy, who came and listen to the story about 281 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:51.279 his behavior, and then reached out to the Army Reserve 282 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.079 unit because they decided, well, this would be a good 283 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:57.359 place for the Army Reserve to maybe step up because they, 284 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:01.319 you know, because it's a contained unit, they're close to 285 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.559 each other, and they have programs that could maybe help them, 286 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:09.079 so they reached out. The deputy deputy in May of 287 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.200 twenty twenty three, reached out and was very proactive. He 288 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:16.319 wrote a thirteen hundred page police report, very detailed. He 289 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:19.920 took a lot of a lot of proactive steps to 290 00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:23.720 try to see what could be done to help him. 291 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:27.480 At this point, he hadn't other than his behavior. There 292 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.319 was no there was nothing that would rise to the 293 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:35.839 level of dangerous behavior. But the Army Reserve, the commanding 294 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.920 officer a captain who would By the way, a number 295 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:41.359 of the members of that reserve unit, the Bravo Company, 296 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:46.279 were civilian law enforcement in the state of Maine, New Hampshire. 297 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:50.039 So the captain of the unit, himself a police officer 298 00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:53.759 in New Hampshire, assured the deputy that they would come 299 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:56.400 up with some kind of a mental health plan, some 300 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:58.839 kind of a plan to get him some help. That 301 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:05.599 didn't happen, and ultimately he ended up going to training 302 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.880 at West Point in July of twenty twenty three, and 303 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:14.599 it was supposed to be another weapons training for the cadets. 304 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:16.920 But when he showed up at training, he was acting 305 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.119 very bizarrely. He was making the comments that now his 306 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:23.240 members of his unit were calling him a pedophile, and 307 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:26.559 then he assaulted one of them when they went to 308 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:30.759 a comedians sto to buy some beer and then barricaded 309 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:35.079 himself in his room and wouldn't come out. And at 310 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:39.400 that point they really had no other recourse put to 311 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:43.039 It was a National Guard base in New York, so 312 00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:45.680 it wasn't the Army Reserve that was involved at MPs. 313 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:47.480 It was actually they had to call the New York 314 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.720 State Police right who showed up and he was command directed, 315 00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:55.200 so he was told that he had to go to 316 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.720 a psychiatric facility. It wasn't voluntary, and that becomes that's 317 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.160 because sort of an issue in the in the post, 318 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.920 you know, the posts follow up on could they have 319 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.079 used any kind of laws to take him into custody? 320 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:10.920 And they took him to a psychiatric facility, first the 321 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.279 army unit there and then that and then eventually to 322 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.640 a civilian facility where we stayed for three weeks. 323 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:23.400 What was the their diagnosis and was there any follow 324 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:26.559 up with any type of drugs prescribed? 325 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:32.960 Mhmm. Yeah, The diagnosis was he was psychotic, and there's 326 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.279 there's still there's still a lot we don't know about 327 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:39.039 his stay at that facility. There were pending lawsuits, so 328 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:40.559 a lot of this stuff is not going to come 329 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.880 out into the open, you know. And of course it's 330 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:46.920 hip hop hip hop regulations also. But we do know 331 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.720 that that they diagnosed him as as being psychotic. The 332 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:53.440 army psychiatrist who did the pre screening before he went 333 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.559 to the civilian facility specifically said he should not be 334 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:01.160 in possession of personal firearms when he went to the facility. 335 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.640 We do know that through some information that has come out, 336 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:06.599 that he told them that he had a hit list 337 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.759 of people that he wanted to kill. He told him 338 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:13.160 about his weapons, he told them he continued with a 339 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:19.759 pedophile story, and he stayed for three weeks. They at 340 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:21.559 one point there was supposed to be a hearing before 341 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:26.799 a judge in New York, but because he was because 342 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.400 Card himself asked for a release from the facility, so 343 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:34.799 that that triggered a potential hearing before a judge. But 344 00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:39.240 then he withdrew that request, so there was no hearing, 345 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:41.559 so there was no finding from a court at all 346 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.279 about whether he was a danger to the community. And 347 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.920 ultimately he was released. And you know, once again, I 348 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.680 spent some time talking to his friend Hodgson, who he 349 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:55.079 was in communication with while he was in the facility, 350 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:58.039 and he called Hawgson said can you come pick me up? 351 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:03.319 And did Card get in the car and then complained, 352 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.039 I mean, he was happy to get out, complained a 353 00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:10.519 lot about how they didn't do anything for him. Everybody 354 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.519 thought he was crazy, but he was fine. It's hard 355 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:16.680 to notice that his knuckles were all battered and bruised, 356 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:18.720 and he asked him why that was the case, and 357 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.279 he said, because he had been rolling up his mattress 358 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:23.400 in his room and punt using it as a punching bag. 359 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:28.759 So clearly really angry and he had threatened to punch 360 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:33.039 one of the other patients at the facility, and he 361 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:38.000 told his friend Hadgston. He said, you know, I threatened 362 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.200 to punch her. But then, you know, I managed to 363 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:44.599 convince him that I was just kidding or something so 364 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.279 that they would release him. So he more or less 365 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:50.720 just pulled the wall over their eyes about enough anyway 366 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.400 to get them to release him with a plan. But 367 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:58.400 the plan was essentially he had some medication which he 368 00:22:58.440 --> 00:23:01.759 stopped taking almost immediately, and they spoke to his family 369 00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:05.039 and his mother, who had her own, you know, pretty 370 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:08.519 severe health issues at the time, was supposed to monitor 371 00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:14.440 his follow up with mental health professionals in Maine, but 372 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:19.160 he just you know, ducked out of any any follow 373 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:23.880 up at all. And the Army Reserve program that they 374 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:28.640 had in place, the psychological health program, tried contact contacting him, 375 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:30.960 but he kept just ignoring the phone calls and eventually 376 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:31.680 they just gave up. 377 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:37.960 Now, let's talk about what Robert card the second does 378 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:40.880 the very next day. Where does he go and what 379 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.000 does he try to purchase? You talk about suppressors, what 380 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.279 are they in actual fact, and also what are the 381 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:55.319 laws regarding someone that has mental health Health red Flags 382 00:23:55.359 --> 00:24:00.759 will say regarding the ability to purchase guns. 383 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:03.759 Yeah, Well, as far as what he did when he 384 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:06.279 came back from New York from the facility, he went 385 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:09.640 the next stage in Maine. Back in Maine, in the 386 00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:13.279 town of Auburn, City of Auburn, right across the river 387 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:16.559 from Lewiston, he went. He went to pick up a 388 00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:19.519 suppressor or a silencer. It's also known as that he 389 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:25.079 ordered a few months previously. They actually they're quite regulated, 390 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:29.200 and you have to fill out an FF Federal license 391 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.200 form and you have to answer a bunch of questions 392 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:35.839 about this and that. And one of the things that 393 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:37.319 he had answered when he went to go pick it 394 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:41.640 up was had he been adjudicated in a psychiatric facility? 395 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.880 And he answered yes because his friend Hodgson advised him 396 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:47.680 that if he didn't, if he lied on that form 397 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:51.279 or was a felony. So he did answer yes, and 398 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:53.559 as a result, they would not give him the suppressor. 399 00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.839 So he was unable to get that whether he tended 400 00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:00.480 to use it later on or not. I mean, obviously 401 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.759