WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:16.480 Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in 2 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:21.000 this edition is John Bill Kongable. He's a US Army 3 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:24.440 veteran of World War Two. Mister cong Gable served in 4 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.640 an anti tank company in the eighty ninth Infantry Division. 5 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:31.039 He fought across the Rhine River and his unit helped 6 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:35.240 to liberate the Ordriff concentration camp in early April nineteen 7 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:39.399 forty five. Bill Congable was born in Oklahoma and lived 8 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:42.240 there until he was drafted into the US Army during 9 00:00:42.280 --> 00:00:45.679 the war. But even earlier than that, he remembers getting 10 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:49.039 the news that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbor. 11 00:00:49.560 --> 00:00:53.520 I was in my home and we heard the news, 12 00:00:53.719 --> 00:01:00.399 and everybody gathered around radios to listen all of the 13 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:02.960 events as they came on the radio. 14 00:01:03.320 --> 00:01:05.840 Do you remember how you reacted to the news. 15 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:13.280 Well, everybody was mad as hell and surprised. One thing 16 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:17.799 that we learned after a few days after Pearl Harbor 17 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:22.159 was that there was a There were two pilots who 18 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:27.959 got off the ground and shot down several Japanese airplanes, 19 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:32.879 and one of them was Kenneth who came from Homiony. 20 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:36.319 He was born and raised in homony. He stayed in 21 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:40.239 the service and got to be a general. 22 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.280 How old were you when Pearl Harbor was attacked? 23 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:45.159 Fifteen? 24 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.120 You were drafted into the army less than a week 25 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.599 after graduating from high school? Is that right? 26 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:51.560 Yes, that's right. 27 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:52.719 Were you expecting that? 28 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:53.439 Yes? 29 00:01:54.280 --> 00:01:59.400 I was actually eighteen in February, and the head of 30 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:03.439 the draft lord lived across the street from me. I 31 00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:07.959 don't know whether it was a particular favor, but he said, Billy, 32 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:11.960 you can graduate from high school and then you're in 33 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:18.000 the army. And so I graduated I think May twenty fifth, 34 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:23.280 and I think I was drafted in May twenty on 35 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:24.560 May twenty eighth. 36 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:26.360 Where did you go for training? 37 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:34.080 I went to Fort Sill for my induction. I took 38 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:37.520 a train ride down to Fort Sill, and that was 39 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:40.680 the second time I'd ever been on a train. We 40 00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:43.599 had a big station in town and a lot of 41 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:48.080 trains going through, but only was on one other. I 42 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:51.319 stayed there for I think it must have been a 43 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:56.360 couple of weeks, and then they interviewed me to see 44 00:02:56.400 --> 00:03:00.120 what kind of skill or craft I might have, and 45 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:06.240 I went to Camp fannin Texas for my infantry basic training. 46 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:08.520 Camp Fannin was up. 47 00:03:08.439 --> 00:03:12.800 Near Tyler Longview in Northeast Texas. 48 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:14.120 Northeast Texas. 49 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:19.479 I went to the eighty ninth Infantry Division in Camp Butner, 50 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:26.400 North Carolina. Neither Camp Buttner or Camp Fannin or in 51 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:32.159 service anymore. I stayed there and got my training in 52 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:35.960 the Anti Tank Company. I think I went up there 53 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:45.039 in September around September. Then in January the division got 54 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:52.159 carried by train up to Boston and we sailed from 55 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:55.639 Boston in January of nineteen forty five. 56 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:59.240 What does anti tank training consist of? 57 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.520 The Anti Tank Company uses what is called a fifty 58 00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:08.719 seven millimeter rifle, which is like it looks like a 59 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:14.240 little artillery piece and it's it's on a two wheel carriage, 60 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:19.560 but it's designed with a very heavy powder charge and 61 00:04:19.639 --> 00:04:24.879 a very heavy projectile which has spent uradium in it. 62 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:26.240 To make it heavy. 63 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:31.399 And I was a crew member on one of the 64 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:35.680 one of the tank anty tank guns. We had a 65 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:41.399 gunner who used the site to the aim the gun, 66 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:46.000 and we had a loader who put the shell in, 67 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.480 took the old got the old shell disposed of, and 68 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:53.720 put a new one in. And then we had a 69 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:58.639 couple of more people moving ammunition around. I guess, kind 70 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:04.639 of standing guard. Any tank weapon was designed so that 71 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:09.319 if when the projectile hit a tank, it would actually 72 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.079 melt the metal on the side of the tank and 73 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:19.519 spring molten metal round inside. And we practiced shooting at 74 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:26.480 obsolete tanks. We never fired at a tank. And all 75 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:27.759 the time we were in that. 76 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:30.519 Company, how fast could you move that around? 77 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:37.759 How fast could we reload and fire? Exactly? Probably thirty seconds. 78 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.040 So you arrived in Europe in early nineteen forty five, yes, 79 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:44.959 and where did you go first? 80 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:48.920 We went to Camp Lucky Strike, which was one of 81 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:54.319 the cigarette camps along the coast where troops coming in 82 00:05:54.360 --> 00:06:00.879 from the States got organized to go into combat. We 83 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:08.480 landed at Laharvor in a driving snowstorm and it was cold, cold, cold, 84 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:12.079 And when we got to the camp, our tent was 85 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:14.600 laid out on the ground, so we had to erect 86 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:16.879 our own thirty man tent. 87 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:19.480 I guess the thing that was that you. 88 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:25.680 Most suffered from, besides just being cold, was a little 89 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:29.519 tren was out in a field away from the tents, 90 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.360 and so if you had to go, you had to 91 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:35.800 go out in the cold, cold, cold, and part of 92 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:37.040 the time, it was in snow. 93 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:39.279 That's the same winter of the Bulge. 94 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:45.399 So I yeah, I was inducted just about the time 95 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:49.000 of D Day and we landed in France when the 96 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:52.360 Battle of the Bulge was going on. I think we 97 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:57.319 landed in mid January and it was the first part 98 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:02.319 of March before we went into combat. And it was 99 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:05.439 a puzzle to me while we were sitting around so long, 100 00:07:06.319 --> 00:07:13.000 and somebody said, well, think about the situation there. They're 101 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:20.319 surrounded and we've got other military units wheeling around and 102 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:23.480 going back up to the Battle of the Bulch and 103 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:26.560 they don't want a Green division in. They're missing things up. 104 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:31.600 That's the only reason. But when we did enter combat 105 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:37.319 in March in Luxembourg, that was early March. 106 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:41.560 The war was over in May. We only had. 107 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:47.800 Two months of combat experience, and in that time we 108 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:51.839 went from Luxembourg all the way to Germany and some 109 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:55.439 of our troops ended up in Czechoslovakia. 110 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:56.720 That's a lot of progress. 111 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.120 Yeah, Well, it was fast the tanks. We were following 112 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:06.839 the tanks. That's what the infantry was doing. The tanks 113 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:11.959 would go blaaring ass up through every town and the 114 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.920 infantry would come along and clear the town of any 115 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:22.920 remaining German soldiers. Sometimes they would stop in that town 116 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:28.600 and go take over a German house and spend the night, 117 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.720 and another unit would leap frog through. 118 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:35.679 What other weapons were you carrying besides the anti tank gun? 119 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:43.960 Well, we carried an empty back. Crew members carried carbine 120 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:48.399 in one carbine and the gun crew and the loader 121 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:57.799 carry of forty five automatic pistol. After we crossed the Rhine, 122 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:02.919 Patten said we don't need anti tank guns anymore, and 123 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:07.200 we became a rifle company, so everybody carried a nam one. 124 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:11.120 That was one of the main weapons we trained on. 125 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:17.000 We trained on all of the weapons that an infantry 126 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:24.559 company might have to use. A thirty milimere, a machine gun, mortar, 127 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.720 thirty thirty milimere and sixty milimere border. 128 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:32.480 There was what was called a. 129 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:38.200 Browning automatic rifle of the bar. We didn't get pistol 130 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:43.759 training in basic training that we got that training. Uh, 131 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:48.080 after we got to the United Division. 132 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:51.000 I know a lot of guys got attached to their rifles. 133 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:52.919 Would it would would that be true for you? 134 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:59.120 Not really in the infantry. In basic training you answered 135 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:04.840 your roll call all with your dog tag number, and 136 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:09.879 you had to report every so often the number on 137 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:16.080 your rifle. When we got into combat, there was no 138 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:22.080 such keeping records of anything you grabbed, grabbed, whatever gun 139 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:25.279 you were using at the time, and there wasn't any 140 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:30.480 wasn't any record keeping go if in basic you if 141 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:33.519 you lost your rifle, you were in deep trouble or 142 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:40.080 in in Europe, that wasn't a problem. At one stop 143 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:46.960 we made, we passed by a house that was already 144 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:52.960 occupied and somebody had their sniper rifle leaning up against 145 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:57.000 the wall out just out in the open street. I 146 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.559 don't know who might have stolen it, but it wasn't secure. 147 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:02.240 I'd say that all right. 148 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:06.519 So let's talk about March and your first entry into combat. 149 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:09.799 Where was that and what was it like? 150 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:15.559 That was in Luxembourg and in the anti tank company. 151 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:20.919 We rode in trucks pulling our gun behind us. The 152 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:27.840 rifle companies did the main ground fighting. When we crossed 153 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:31.159 the Mozelle, some of the people who were in the 154 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:37.000 first company said it was a pretty intense battle. After that, 155 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:42.679 we traveled in our trucks, waiting, waiting to be called 156 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:49.120 on to use our anti tank weapons until the crossing 157 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:50.320 of the Rhine. 158 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.000 That's Bill Kong Gable. He's a US Army veteran of 159 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:56.039 World War Two who fought in an anti tank unit 160 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:00.360 that saw intense action while crossing the Rhine River. Miss 161 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.960 the aftermath of the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis at 162 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:07.679 the or Driff concentration camp. When we come back, con 163 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.120 Gable describes the vicious fighting to get across the Rhine. 164 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.840 I'm Greg Corumbus and this is Veterans Chronicles. 165 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.240 Sixty Seconds of Service. 166 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.480 This sixty Seconds of Service is presented by T Mobile. 167 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.639 T Mobile offers exclusive discounts for a veteran and military 168 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:27.200 families and are proud supporters of the National Defense Network. 169 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:30.240 Visit t mobile dot com slash military to learn more 170 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:33.919 about how they support our military community. From Tucson, Arizona, 171 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:38.279 Esperanza and Escalante hosted their first Veteran Resource Fair to 172 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:41.879 help the community. They're a nonprofit that provides transitional housing 173 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.960 and other resources to veterans who are in need of assistance. 174 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:47.519 I've been here since July. It helps keep me off 175 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:50.360 the streets, said Benny Howell, a resident and an Army veteran. 176 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.080 I appreciate them helping me out, so I can get 177 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:57.399 my own place with my dog, hopefully soon. The nonprofit 178 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:01.519 also offers social rehabilitation assistance with VA programs and with 179 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:05.399 disability income if applicable. Today's sixty Seconds of Service is 180 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:08.360 brought to you by Prevagen. Prevagen is the number one 181 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:11.960 pharmacist recommended memory support brand. You can find Prevagen in 182 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:14.399 the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. 183 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:19.440 This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in 184 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:23.440 this edition is John Bill kong Gable. He served in 185 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:26.600 an anti tank unit within the eighty ninth Infantry Division. 186 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:31.559 Later in our conversation we'll discuss the unspeakable horrors that 187 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:36.360 Conggable witnessed at the order of Concentration camp. But right now, 188 00:13:36.759 --> 00:13:39.679 con Gable takes us to the most intense combat of 189 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.519 his time in World War II, crossing the Rhine in 190 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:45.440 the spring of nineteen forty five. 191 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:47.799 Well, that was quite a battle. 192 00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:54.799 Our commanders had planned to have a surprise night crossing, 193 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.720 and the Rhine's in a deep valley there, and on 194 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:04.679 the American side, we placed their anti tank companies on 195 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:09.440 the top of the hill pointing down to cover any 196 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:17.080 thing that we needed to shoot at. And at two o'clock. 197 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:24.799 The first company crossed. They were in in one assault boats, 198 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:30.759 which were just a metal square brow pile boat with 199 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.799 eight soldiers, four on each side paddling and an engineer 200 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:40.080 in the front and an engineer in the back. And 201 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:45.559 the first company crossed without any resistance. And when the 202 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:53.360 second company started across, the Germans had anticipated us and 203 00:14:53.919 --> 00:15:00.759 mounted twenty millimeter anti aircraft guns and machine guns culverts 204 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.080 under the road on the other side of the river, 205 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:09.600 set up in a perfect crisscross fire, firing at water 206 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:13.799 level so that no way you can get through that. 207 00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:20.799 Our second company ran into that resistance. The first things 208 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:26.159 the Germans did was are a twenty milimere any aircraft 209 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:31.000 gun to gasoline barge which was parked along the river, 210 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:35.440 and it set the barge on fire in the valley. 211 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:41.559 Was dislike daylight. That company, as I understood it, had 212 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:47.559 eighty five percent casualties dead and wounded, and there were 213 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:54.480 quite a few missing. We kept firing at the German positions, 214 00:15:55.320 --> 00:16:00.519 and the first company that crossed over came around and 215 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:04.960 between the two of us we eliminated the German opposition. 216 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:13.519 One thing I'll never forget is that during the crossing 217 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:20.919 of the second company. Between berths of gunfire, we could 218 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:26.120 hear the men on the river screaming and hollering. And 219 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.240 the one thing that this brings me to tears every 220 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:35.960 time I think about it. One guy said, old Mama, 221 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:41.559 you just can't imagine the suffering that guy was having. 222 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:48.519 After the German positions were knocked out, it was three 223 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:53.799 o'clock or four o'clock in the morning, and I sat 224 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.559 down and went to sleep and woke up at sunrise. 225 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:04.240 The ally was covered with a smoke strain. We crossed 226 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:09.839 pulling our weapon on a pontoon bridge that the engineers 227 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:14.440 had built at noon. It's just amazing they got in 228 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:19.160 there that quick and built a bridge. After the fighting. 229 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.680 Take me back to the night before. Where are you 230 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:23.440 set up? 231 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:24.039 We were? 232 00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:26.920 We were set up on the top of the hill 233 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:31.920 on the American side, with our guns pointing down, and 234 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:37.319 our weapons were not as effective as they could be 235 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:42.279 because it was just one solid bullet and you had 236 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.839 to make a pretty direct hit to do any damage. 237 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:53.680 There was an ammunition called high explosive anti tank ammunition 238 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:58.359 which had an explosive head on it, but we didn't 239 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:03.640 have that, so it took a little longer because of that. 240 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:10.119 But we must have been pretty close because one of 241 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:13.640 the twenty millimeter guns turned it up the hill and 242 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:15.359 was shooting at us. 243 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:17.519 They it went over us. 244 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:25.160 But every round on a twenty milimeter any aircraft bullet 245 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:28.680 is a tracer, so you know where you can see 246 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:32.559 where it goes. And the machine guns it's only every 247 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:35.960 fifth round, but it's pretty fast and so you see 248 00:18:35.960 --> 00:18:38.519 a lot of of the tracer bullets. 249 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:41.759 Are you using the anti tank gun or rifles anti 250 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:42.400 tank gun? 251 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:44.039 There were troops. 252 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:49.759 Down on the shoreline with M one shooting across two, 253 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:57.400 so we had those troops and or anti tank guns 254 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:02.400 up on the hill and then pops deadhead crossed on 255 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:07.680 the initial crossing. I don't know who did the most 256 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.160 to knockout the positions. Boo, we did our share. 257 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.440 That's Bill kong Gable, a US Army veteran of World 258 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.880 War II. When we come back, more of his thoughts 259 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.880 on the fighting at the Rhine and the horrors that 260 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:25.480 he witnessed at the Order of Concentration Camp. I'm Greg Corumbus, 261 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:31.319 and this is Veterans' Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm 262 00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:35.240 Greg Corumbus, our guest in this edition is John Bill 263 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:38.640 kong Gable. He is a US Army veteran of World 264 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.839 War Two serving in an anti tank unit in the 265 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.440 eighty ninth Infantry Division. In just a moment, mister coong 266 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.920 Gable will tell us what he saw at the Order 267 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:52.680 of Concentration camp in early April nineteen forty five. But 268 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.839 first more of his thoughts on the fight to cross 269 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:59.119 the Rhine and what he was thinking in the midst 270 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.319 of that brutal f I. 271 00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:08.000 Was amazed that the Germans had always had a surprise 272 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:13.200 for us, and that was the first intense battle I 273 00:20:13.359 --> 00:20:19.079 was involved in, and it just amazed me that they 274 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:22.920 sat there and let the first company cross. They hoped 275 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:29.599 to trap the first company after that first crossing, and 276 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:34.920 the guns were set up so perfectly, firing in a 277 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:39.400 crisscross pattern. They planned it, They planned for it. They 278 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:44.720 were well prepared and they were well armed. And here 279 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:50.680 it was almost the end of March, and the war 280 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:58.640 was over in May, so they were still fighting. We said, 281 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:05.039 don't they know the war's over? But as far as 282 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:11.359 they were concerned, it wasn't over, and they never stopped resisting. 283 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.680 Did you then cross the Rhine yourself? After the fighting. 284 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:20.319 No, I wasn't in any of the troops that crossed 285 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:25.440 the Rhine in the paddle boats. We crossed with our 286 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:26.279 in our truck. 287 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:27.599 The crew. 288 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:33.440 Rode in a truck which pulled our weapon. So that's 289 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.359 how we crossed the Rhine in our truck across the 290 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:38.519 pontoon bridge. 291 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:42.160 What did the river and the valley look like the 292 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:43.640 next morning after all that. 293 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:45.000 Well, the. 294 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:51.920 Place we stopped is really a famous place. It was 295 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:57.039 at Saint Gore, which is a narrow spot in the Rhine. 296 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:00.000 Back in ancient days. 297 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.599 There's a story that and there was. 298 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:07.559 A castle up on the top of the hill that 299 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:14.720 there was a singer named Loralai who sang and attracted 300 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.880 some of the boat traffic on the Rhine over to 301 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:24.240 the side of the river where the Germans looted the 302 00:22:24.279 --> 00:22:29.839 cargo boats. But that was the That was the location 303 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:34.039 of our crossing. I couldn't see much on the river 304 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:39.480 that the smoke screen hadn't completely gone away when we crossed. 305 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.519 Now, you said earlier that once you crossed the Rhine 306 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.839 that you shifted to infantry. Yes, what did that shift 307 00:22:46.920 --> 00:22:48.200 look like? How did it happen? 308 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:54.160 Well, we parked the trucks and the guns, and we 309 00:22:54.160 --> 00:22:57.599 were issued Those that didn't have rifles already were issued 310 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:04.160 in once and so we walked in patrols the rest 311 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:09.559 of the way across Germany. Our platoon didn't encounter any 312 00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:15.440 heavy fighting. From the Rhine crossing there were a few 313 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:22.480 minor battles and towns were German soldiers had hidden out 314 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:26.559 when the tanks came through, so they had to be eliminated. 315 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:27.680 How did you do that? 316 00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:31.079 Well, find them and shoot them. 317 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:34.200 That's the way. That's the way you do it. 318 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.400 So you did have an anti tank moment, just not 319 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.079 with your anti tank unit. Yes, yes, Now you also 320 00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:43.160 encountered some displaced persons. 321 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:47.160 Yes, we encountered some. 322 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:56.319 Dps who apparently had been locked up in a factory 323 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:04.200 or chemical plant that had been liberated by troops on 324 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:09.480 some side of us. And these late slave laborers that 325 00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:13.799 we encountered were walking home. Several of them were Italian 326 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.480 and they had been in one of the camps, the 327 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:26.640 slave labor camps and Ponya Maya Polski. People were asking 328 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:31.400 if we spoke Polish, or people asked if we spoke Italian. 329 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.200 We had one guy in our squad who came from Brooklyn, 330 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:42.319 and spoke fluent Italians, and so he would stop and 331 00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:45.039 talk to him, but there wasn't any way we could 332 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:47.640 help him. And he got to the point where he said, 333 00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:50.759 don't tell anybody I'm a Talian. I don't want I 334 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:55.400 don't want to talk to any of those people. But 335 00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:06.000 then on April fourth, the division liberated Ordroff, the first 336 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:11.319 concentration camp on the Western Front. It wasn't our platoon, 337 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:18.319 it was some other platoon in the in the division. 338 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:22.799 Did you see ord I saw part of it, and 339 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.480 it probably I don't know. I forget now exactly why 340 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:32.279 how I happened to see it, But it was some 341 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:39.759 days after the initial liberation, and it was the open pit. 342 00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:44.440 Grave of Ordroff were about. 343 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:49.559 They said about an estimated three thousand naked, skin and 344 00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:55.160 bonne bodies were buried in this long pit. And at 345 00:25:55.200 --> 00:26:00.279 the time there was a detail of soldiers supervising some 346 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:04.440 Germans and I don't remember how many. They were digging 347 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:11.720 six foot graves, six foot deep graves and pulling bodies 348 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:17.400 out of the pit. And you can't imagine a more 349 00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:26.759 terrifying an awful job. That is because when they take 350 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:30.559 hold of a body, the rotting skin would slide off 351 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:34.519 the bones and it was hard to get a grip 352 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.519 on it. And I saw one body coming out. It 353 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:44.359 came apart, it was so old and rotted. I was 354 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:48.640 only there about ten minutes, and I didn't know at 355 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:51.680 the time that it was the Order of pet I 356 00:26:51.799 --> 00:26:52.720 found out later. 357 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.160 What's it like to see something like that. 358 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:59.440 It's just awful. It's just awful. 359 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:04.240 Oh, you're going to encounter dead bodies, and you encounter 360 00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:11.119 dead bodies as a result of enemy fire, but to 361 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:20.400 see that many bodies completely unclothed, almost skeletal from having 362 00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:25.880 been starved to death. But I wasn't there very long, 363 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.160 so I didn't have time to grieve over it or 364 00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:35.839 wonder over it. But it was a terrible and the 365 00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:39.279 smell was I'll never forget that smell. 366 00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:41.519 Is there any way to describe the smell. 367 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:51.640 Well, you've run across dead, rotting animals run over in 368 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:59.559 the road or something somebody shot and left in the countryside. 369 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:05.759 That kind of smell plus a terrible smell of body 370 00:28:05.799 --> 00:28:11.440 odor mixed in with the rotting flesh of. 371 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:14.799 The bodies, and you had no idea that the Germans 372 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:16.039 were doing anything like this. 373 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:20.079 Right, Well, we had seen. 374 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:28.559 Movies in the States, where there usually was a short newsreel. 375 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:36.319 They showed film clips of various incidents, and we saw 376 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:43.039 movies of where the Germans were gathering up the Jews 377 00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:47.920 and carrying them off to concentration camps. We didn't see 378 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:53.400 the concentration camps, but it wasn't a complete surprise to 379 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:56.920 find these camps like that. 380 00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:03.920 Now, I also read that you encountered some local citizens 381 00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:06.920 who pretended they knew nothing about the camp. 382 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:07.480 Yeah. 383 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:14.640 Well, that's part of the account by the liberating company 384 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:23.000 that right after it was discovered, the commanders ordered Germans 385 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:27.720 from the town of Ordruf to march through the camp 386 00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:33.240 and see what their Nazi soldiers had done. And they 387 00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:36.839 said many of them were shaking your heads and saying 388 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:40.400 I didn't know, I didn't know. It was too close 389 00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:42.960 to the town that they didn't know everything that was 390 00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:43.519 going on. 391 00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:47.480 Now, after you encountered the camp, you kept moving into Germany. 392 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:50.880 But you also witnessed the crash of a B twenty four. 393 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:56.559 Yes, that's my B twenty four story. We were walking 394 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:03.880 along a road. It was pretty long, straight road and 395 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:08.079 there were woods on both sides of the road, and 396 00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:11.359 it was a very clear day and we could see 397 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:16.640 the flights of B twenty fourth going over, just squadron 398 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:21.640 after squadron, and we were griping. One of the guys says, now, 399 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:25.079 look at those fly boys. They fly over, drop a 400 00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:29.160 few bombs, fly back to England, have a bear to 401 00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:33.279