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True Murder with 58 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:34.680 your host journalist and author Dan. 59 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:46.520 Zufanski, Good Evening. 60 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:53.520 Netflix documentary series Making a Murderer has captivated audiences everywhere, 61 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:58.960 igniting controversy and fiery debate, especially among true crime fans. 62 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:04.599 Michael Greesback, a Wisconsin district attorney, helped have Stephen Avery 63 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:09.400 exonerated and released from prison after being wrongfully convicted, and 64 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:11.800 went on to write the definitive and brilliant book about 65 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:16.919 the case, The Innocent Killer. Making a Murderer documentary writers 66 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.439 and producers made a strong case that Avery and co 67 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:24.960 accused nephew Brendan Dacy, convicted of the murder of Teresa Hallback, 68 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:33.400 deserve another trial. Michael and I will discuss Making a Murderer, 69 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:37.680 the trial of Stephen Avery and Brendan Dacy and the 70 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:41.520 murder of Teresa Hallback. The title of the program this 71 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:45.960 evening is making a murderer the need for a retrial 72 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:51.039 with my special guests, journalist and author Michael Greesback. Welcome 73 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:53.080 back to the program, and thank you very much for 74 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:54.039 a green to this interview. 75 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:58.360 Michael Greesback, it's slowly Dan, good to be here as always. 76 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:01.759 Thank you very much much. It's very interesting in the 77 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:06.319 short span of time what has happened with your original story. 78 00:04:07.400 --> 00:04:10.080 So tell us just a little bit, because there's so 79 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:12.919 much going on, tell us a little bit about just 80 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:15.159 a couple of the personal stories before we get into 81 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:21.600 this incredible tale and this really divisive and controversial case 82 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:23.800 now that's just really blown up. But tell us some 83 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:28.240 of the personal antidotes that I was just reading recently 84 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:34.480 about protests at the courthouse and involving with your Facebook page. 85 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:36.480 So tell us a little bit about those kinds of 86 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:38.720 things before we get right into this. 87 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:49.399 Sure protests, biom threats, sabotaging or taking over or hijacking 88 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:56.120 Facebook pages and Amazon ratings and you name it, I've 89 00:04:56.199 --> 00:05:00.439 seen it, and I've probably seen it less than the 90 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:08.399 specific police officers most directly involved in the allegations of 91 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:13.480 evidence planting. There's Jim Lincoln, Andy Colburn, the two Manitoa 92 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:20.480 County officers who have been most directly accused of planting evidence, 93 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:26.360 specifically the key they now infamous key of Teresa Hubback 94 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:29.720 vehicle found in mister Avery's bedroom. 95 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:37.360 Right, and before we go any further too, you appeared 96 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:41.720 on this program originally this story was incredible, and with 97 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.279 your original version of your book on Reasonable Inferences and 98 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:49.079 then The Innocent Killer. So tell us before I start 99 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:54.879 again a barrage of really tough questions for you. What 100 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:57.360 has happened with the book The Innocent Killer? What's the 101 00:05:57.519 --> 00:05:59.480 newest development in regards to that? 102 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.680 Sure? Well, first of all, I self published the book 103 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:10.319 under the title Unreasonable Inferences back in I want to say, 104 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:16.279 twenty ten, and the American Bar Association picked it up 105 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:21.079 and published it with some changes. I added a PostScript 106 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:24.600 by Penny Burns and the victim of the first case, 107 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:29.240 the case for which Stephen Avery was wrongly convicted, no question, 108 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:35.040 horribly wrongly convicted in nineteen eighty five, in for which 109 00:06:35.160 --> 00:06:38.920 he spent eighteen or twelve years in prison, depending upon 110 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:41.040 how you look at it. We can get to that 111 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:45.480 later and also in that new version, The Innocent Killer 112 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:48.600 is and afterward by Keith Findley, the head of the 113 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:52.600 Wisconsin Innocence Project, and Keith actually went on to serve 114 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:56.399 as the president of a national Innocence Project. I'm on 115 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.680 the board of advisors at the Wisconsin Innocence Project at 116 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:03.839 the Diversity of Wisconsin and Madison. So it's interesting, and 117 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.519 I know we're going to get into that that I 118 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:10.240 am sort of portrayed by some of my critics as 119 00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:13.360 sort of a tool of the state and of prosecutors, 120 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:19.199 which really is to me a very interesting development because 121 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:23.759 I spent a lot of years talking about the infirmities 122 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:29.600 of the criminal justice system, specifically on proscatorial misconduct issues 123 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.959 in terms of withholding evidence and in terms of an 124 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:38.879 over zealousness on their part. But so yes, The Innocence. 125 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:42.600 The American Bar Association picked up the book republished it 126 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:47.439 in the summer of twenty fourteen, with those changes in 127 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:51.720 the PostScript, the afterword, and some additional things here and 128 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:56.839 there that I added to the book to speak to 129 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:59.800 a few issues that I left out, not with regard 130 00:07:59.879 --> 00:08:04.720 to Terresa Holbach's murder most of the book, although that's 131 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.560 not the interest right now, of course, but the first 132 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:09.800 two thirds or maybe even three quarters of the book 133 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:13.120 have to do with mister Avery's wontful conviction and not 134 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:18.319 his trial for the murder of Theresa Hoboch real quick Dan. 135 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:23.040 Of course. More recently this thing is taken off like 136 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:28.759 wildfire my book to some extent, but much more so 137 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:33.000 just the Avery story, I mean, your listeners, and you 138 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:38.919 don't need to be reminded of that. It's a worldwide phenomena, 139 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:44.279 and in some sense I think that's good because it 140 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:48.639 speaks to the criminal justice system and people are looking 141 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:53.000 at it more clearly and seeing its shortcomings. It's a 142 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:56.320 system badly in need of reform, no question about that. 143 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:04.000 Now, let's use this as a segue, because the reason 144 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:05.960 why you're on right here now is not just to 145 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:11.240 gain new listeners from sensationalizing something that is really, like 146 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.360 you say, really caught fire and captivated people's imaginations, and 147 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:21.080 people are outrage. We've got Alec Baldwin and other people. 148 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:26.159 Hundreds of thousands of people have protested all the way 149 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.240 to the White House with this. In terms of asking 150 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.759 Barack Obama, and Barack Obama and the White House have 151 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.399 issued a statement that they can't can they can aren't 152 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:42.200 capable of pardoning Aver even if they wanted to. So 153 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:47.039 it's really interesting. So let's go back to the Wisconsin 154 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:52.360 Innocent Project just to establish beyond all doubt your credibility 155 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:56.639 here and your objectiveness. So talk about we can't go 156 00:09:56.759 --> 00:09:59.200 through the original trial and that is just a done deal. 157 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:02.639 And again, like you mentioned, the emphasis is on the 158 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:07.480 Halback murder and the second part of your book really 159 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:12.679 or the second murder or pardon me second trial. So 160 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:17.279 with the innocence Wisconsin Innocence Project, just take us back 161 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:22.320 to where you became involved, where you were an advocate 162 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:29.360 for Stephen Avery before we talk about the deposition you 163 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:32.720 made on behalf of Stephen Avery and then the turn 164 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:36.519 of events with the disappearance and the murder of Teresa Hallback. 165 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.360 Sure, so, I was a prosecutor in Manitoac County, as 166 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:45.240 I still am in two thousand and three when the 167 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:50.360 crime lab unit in Madison, the Wisconsas State Crime Lab 168 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:55.200 called indicating that the last shred of evidence really a hair, 169 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:59.279 a pubic hair found on the person of Penny Burns 170 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:03.919 and the victim of the first crime. The DNA testing 171 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:07.840 came back to a known sex offender who was serving 172 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:11.480 time already in prison for a new offense, by the 173 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:16.320 name of Gregory Allen and not Steven Avery. So the 174 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:19.840 credit really goes to, you know, the Wisconsin Innocence Project 175 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:23.799 for for for bringing the motion for testing new evidence. 176 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:29.320 I was merely the person on the receiving end to 177 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:35.799 carefully work with them, not to put up roadblacks some 178 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:42.840 DA's fight the most obvious evidence of innocence. I never 179 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:45.320 thought of our roll that way. Our role, you know, 180 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:49.039 is it's important. It's just as important to make sure 181 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:53.320 the innocent go free them to convict those who are guilty, 182 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:59.679 perhaps even more important. So you know, my role was 183 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:02.759 very I had to make sure that it wasn't just 184 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:06.840 the publicare but at other evidence also showed clearly that 185 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:10.120 mister Avery did not commit the crime. And as I 186 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:14.000 looked into that quickly because he had been serving already 187 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:16.799 so much time, it became really clear to me that 188 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:20.440 not only did he not do this first crime, this 189 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:25.720 attack and attempted murder and first degree sexual assault charge 190 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.399 on a beach in Lake Michigan here in Wisconsin, he 191 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:34.240 not only didn't do it, but the authority specifically the DA, 192 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:37.960 former district attorney here in Manitaa County and a former 193 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:45.679 sheriff in Manitoac County, if not intentionally, certainly recklessly sent 194 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:50.480 him to prison while knowing he was innocent. You can't 195 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:55.679 get much more corrupt than that. Now hastened to add, 196 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:58.639 as I always do in these interviews, that the Wisconsin 197 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:05.480 Attorney General, in conducting her independent review back in two 198 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:09.279 thousand and four, late two thousand and three or early 199 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:13.679 two thousand and four, after myself and another prosecutor took 200 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:16.440 it to her to conduct a review to see if 201 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:19.480 there were any ethical or criminal violations on the part 202 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:23.399 of the former sheriff and district attorney. She, that is, 203 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:29.360 the Attorney General, concluded that now mister Avery was the 204 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:37.480 victim of bad police communication, maybe sort of narrow tunnel vision, 205 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:40.440 but nothing unethical or criminal on the part of the 206 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:45.120 sheriff and DA. I called her opinion a whitewash in 207 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:49.200 my book. She's the top law enforcement officer was at 208 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.720 the time in Wisconsin. Her report was nothing but a 209 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:57.320 whitewash of the authorities in my county in nineteen eighty 210 00:13:57.399 --> 00:14:00.519 five for what they did to mister Avery and his family. 211 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:08.480 So again to lend credibility. This is not the kind 212 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:12.080 of thing that a that a prosecutor dreams of is 213 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:16.399 prosecuting their own and fighting against. Like you said, there 214 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.480 are people that even with the evidence in front of them, 215 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:25.799 will deny. So what's the what is the next thing 216 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:28.559 that you had to do this extraordinary effort to be 217 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:33.159 able to establish that this there was some criminality that 218 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:37.799 had occurred in this first investigation and trial right. 219 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:41.039 Well, the first thing I did is we quickly stipulated 220 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.559 to get mister Avery released. We did that within a 221 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:48.799 matter of days, at most one week. We didn't put 222 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:53.480 the defense to you know, to further criminal litigation, to 223 00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:57.159 motions to to you know, a hearing that would be 224 00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:59.840 said a month or two later, and we didn't argue 225 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:03.039 that other evidence suggested x y Z. We looked at 226 00:15:03.080 --> 00:15:06.679 it myself and another prosecutor in her office and said, 227 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.759 you know, he didn't do it. We got to get 228 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.440 him cut loose. And not only did he didn't do it, 229 00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:16.120 but the supposed good guys, the guys with the supposed 230 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:21.120 white hats, were the bad guys here. So that's what 231 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.080 I did, and we took it to the Attorney General 232 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.080 when I became frustrated, Dan, and really what was sort 233 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:30.480 of the impetus for writing the book is the sheriff 234 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.440 and the district attorney at the time to this day 235 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.399 have not been held accountable for what they did to 236 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:42.320 mister Avery and his family. And to me, that's one 237 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:46.639 more tragedy to this whole thing, and a long list 238 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.840 of tragedies. I mean, they were sued. There was a 239 00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:54.639 thirty six million dollar lawsuit filed by Steven Avery against 240 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.120 the sheriff and the district attorney and the county where 241 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:02.559 I'm still employed as tistrict attorney. I was deposed in 242 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:08.039 that runful conviction lawsuit, testified as to what I knew, 243 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:12.600 certainly did not try to fudget one way or the other. 244 00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:14.919 I wasn't going to try to help mister Avery, but 245 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:16.720 I wasn't going to try to help the county. 246 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:18.279 I mean, it is what it is. 247 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:21.399 The facts are what they were. In fact, I've become 248 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:25.720 close to the lawyers who represented Stephen in his rounful 249 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:29.519 conviction lawsuit. I've also become close to his lawyers, at 250 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:32.720 least one of them, Dean Strang, that represented Stephen in 251 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:37.320 his murder trial. We've held conferences together on ronful convictions 252 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:42.360 and Steven's case in particular. So this is a long, 253 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:47.879 sordid tale that's led to a way too much emotion, 254 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:57.120 myself included, and not enough reason. Sometime, as people's people's 255 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:01.399 passions become involved, and I think for what it's worth, 256 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:06.880 my thought is that, including for myself, it's probably time 257 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:14.000 to step back and stop pointing fingers and just look 258 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.799 at the evidence and try to be calm about it, 259 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:22.160 try to be clear headed and rational and objective about it, 260 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.680 with no agenda and with no feeling that the other 261 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:32.960 side is against anybody, even though sometimes they are. We 262 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:36.079 all are susceptible to that, but we need to fight 263 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:40.480 against that because this is important stuff. You know, if 264 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.279 it's important for mister Avery, of course, it's important for 265 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.400 mister Darcy, of course, but it's also important for the 266 00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:51.160 Hallback family. It's also important for the Burnston family, and 267 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:53.240 I know some of your listeners don't want to hear 268 00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:59.000 about the Burnston's and the Hallbacks. It is perhaps even 269 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.880 more important for Stephen Avery and and Brenda Dacy. Certainly 270 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.480 it is if if you know, if you were to 271 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:10.559 believe that they didn't did not do this, but it 272 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:12.880 is important for a lot of people, and finally, it's 273 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:15.480 important for the criminal justice system. And I guess, as 274 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.799 a kind of an observer of this, a person who 275 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.880 wrote this book and has lectured about this and served 276 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:27.319 on panels about wrongful convictions and Stephen Avery's case in particular, 277 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:35.480 my concern is also for the criminal justice system. The documentary, 278 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.319 you know, brought out a lot of good things that 279 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:42.359 need to be looked at, including interrogations, how we do them, 280 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:44.640 whether that's the way we should be allowed to do them, 281 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:51.480 especially when there's a young, developmentally disabled young man. It 282 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.000 brought out the you know, the disparity in in justice 283 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:00.480 that is achieved sometimes between those on the lower of 284 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:04.720 society and those on the upper run. There's no question 285 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:07.720 these are issues, but it's also brought this other issue 286 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:12.039 that is is new and is really disturbing to me, 287 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:17.400 which is the role of entertainment and what I still 288 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:22.640 think is somewhat agenda driven in in in not just 289 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:30.000 entertainment but well intended, meaningful you know, examination of something 290 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.400 but not balanced, and the role that that has on 291 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:38.640 an actual criminal case with real people, real victims, real defendants, 292 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:45.759 real police were accused of planting evidence, real reputations. This 293 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.519 is this is We're in a new this is a 294 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:52.039 whole new ballgame because of this, and I think we 295 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:57.279 need to tread carefully and think, yours truly included, myself included, 296 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:02.240 think a little more carefully and wisely for we to 297 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.319 shout out our latest feeling about this. 298 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:10.880 Well, I got to say for the defense of this audience, 299 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:14.079 because I think a lot of the people have been 300 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:19.400 raised on true crime books, which are very much like 301 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:25.359 your book, very less emotional obviously, and less provocative in 302 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:30.440 the way that video and film can be. And also, 303 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.720 these people are not the uninitiated to how stories are 304 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:38.279 told very much like fictional writing when it's really good 305 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.480 in that it's very mister, you know, there's a lot 306 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:43.480 of mystery left to it, and the writing is on 307 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:47.079 the same level in terms of keeping on the edge 308 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:49.839 of your seat. And so I think that these people 309 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:54.640 that will listen to this program tend more to be 310 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:59.000 people who have read a fair amount of true crime, 311 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.480 and so they are looking for more answers. They're not 312 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.920 as naive as the people that maybe have never watched 313 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:13.279 a documentary before Netflix, before the Hoopla, and before them 314 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.559 not understanding that's still filmmaking as opposed to a book, 315 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:22.200 is more level headed and more expansive, more information provided. 316 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:28.240 So what I'm saying is in that regard, what I 317 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:30.759 think this audience wants, and what we would try to 318 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:33.559 do with this program is to address some of the 319 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.759 things that I think that after I have watched this series, 320 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.039 and after I've read your book and interviewed you, that 321 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:45.039 I still have some burning questions too that brought on 322 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.640 by this documentary. And so I think the person to 323 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.559 ask would be you. 324 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.920 That's all fair well and good, and I don't mean 325 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:57.599 to suggest. Surely there's a place for emotion. There's a 326 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:04.079 place for suspense, you know, there's a place for looking 327 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.200 at things beyond just you know, sort of a lawyerly 328 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:12.079 type way. I'm more I'm totally with you and the 329 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.759 audience about that. But when we get to the point 330 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:22.039 of of making decisions about what we think in in 331 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:26.720 in a particular case, I think overwriting, that should be 332 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:32.680 some sense of of reason, in some sense of of 333 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:37.680 of tolerance, I guess, and some sense of humility on 334 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.000 everybody's part, mine included. But I will do my best 335 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:45.400 to answer the questions you have, Dan, I'm well aware 336 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.920 that there's there's a lot of passion out there about 337 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:53.000 my position on this and what I have written and said, 338 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:59.519 and I I'll, you know, admit where i think I've 339 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:01.640 gone wrong, and I'll stand up where i think I've 340 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.839 I've got it right. But before we got into that, 341 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.440 I did want to point out the other side of 342 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:10.480 this that I think is worthwhile, too. 343 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.599 Okay, And does that being or do we get to 344 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:20.559 that a little bit later. 345 00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:23.680 I think we can know that pretty much what I 346 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:28.000 had gone through earlier, the other side being the need 347 00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:32.240 for for you know, also just trying to be kind 348 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:37.839 of cautious and remember that there's real people out there 349 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:43.079 who were talking about beyond our legitimate interest in true 350 00:23:43.160 --> 00:23:47.119 crime and in the justice system. But there are there 351 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:49.720 are defendants, there are victims, they are police, and there's 352 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:52.920 the system itself that I'm a part of and have 353 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.559 been for a long time that I believe in. It's 354 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:59.200 not all bad. The criminal justice system that has huge 355 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:03.240 problems that I've worked to try to do my part 356 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:07.279 to point out. But that's still I think is you know, 357 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.039 is the best is the best we have. But I 358 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.799 guess enough of my my philosophizing out. Let's let's see, uh, 359 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.799 let's see what what we can what we can accomplish here. 360 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:25.720 You have said, and others have said, and I think 361 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:29.079 I understand what you are saying. So maybe explain to 362 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:34.400 this audience the criticism of making a murderer as agenda driven. 363 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:44.559 Mm hmm, right, well, I think it is. And and 364 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.480 I don't you know a lot almost everything is agenda driven, 365 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:56.039 I guess to some extent. But uh, and it's fair 366 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:58.480 for your audience to say, well, what is the agenda? 367 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.160 And U part of the agenda? I agree with part 368 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.640 of Laura and Moira's agenda, And remember and those that 369 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:13.319 Laura Rookie Arti and Moira demos, the producer or not 370 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:16.799 the producers, but the creators and the filmmakers I interviewed 371 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:19.799 with them. I thought what they were doing was a 372 00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:22.759 good thing. I think I'm in the first episode for 373 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:28.519 a minute or two or something. And I agree with 374 00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:32.559 a good portion of their agenda, which is to use 375 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:37.519 the Avery case to draw lessons about the criminal justice system, 376 00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:41.759 including some of those things I spoke to earlier interrogations, 377 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.319 When is enough enough? When is too much? Too much? 378 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:50.720 And and I can't weigh in too much on that issue. 379 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:54.279 I'm still a prosecutor. I'm speaking tonight, as you know, 380 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:56.319 the author of this book, But i still am a 381 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:00.079 prosecuting attorney in Wisconsin and in Manitoba County. That's a 382 00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:03.519 pending case. But suffice it to say that that's a 383 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.359 good example of I mean, I'm troubled. I think anybody's 384 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:13.240 troubled by what they saw in the interview during making 385 00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:18.680 a murder of mister Dascy. You know, that's a technique, 386 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:22.720 the read technique. It's called I believe it's our ei 387 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.559 D that's used all over the United States. I'm not 388 00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:32.759 sure about Canada, but in in law enforcement interrogation and 389 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.480 and there's good reason to question the validity of that. 390 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.880 I mean, it's basically it assumes that the police know 391 00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:46.039 the truth and they know the guilt of the person, 392 00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:51.960 and it's designed to elicit a confession, not you know, 393 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.599 objectively to search for the truth. I am not an 394 00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:57.920 expert in that. There will be police officers who will 395 00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:00.119 be very upset that that's the way I care or 396 00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:05.880 tries it. And you know, from their perspective, they do 397 00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:10.480 that once they feel they have enough evidence that there 398 00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:14.160 is no question the defendant is guilty, so therefore their 399 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:20.960 job becomes to to do whatever, frankly the law allows, 400 00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:23.279 which is way too much. 401 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:23.920