WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.120 Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to 2 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:04.679 you today about a way that you can help support 3 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:08.199 the podcast if you're not already to support the channel 4 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:11.919 is to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon 5 00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:14.919 memberships that start at just five dollars a month, and 6 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:17.600 when you sign up, you get access to all of 7 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:20.839 our episodes add free. That's the big bonus for that. 8 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:24.000 I mean, we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for 9 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:27.920 our subscribers, but this is the biggest and best way 10 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:32.320 that you can support the Teamhouse channel and podcast if 11 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.280 you'd like to, and we really appreciate that, So go 12 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:39.039 and check us out at patreon dot com. Slash The Teamhouse, 13 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:53.520 Special Operations, Cobert Ops, Aspionage, The Team House with Your Hopes, 14 00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:03.399 Jack Murphy and David bark. Hey, everyone, welcome to episode 15 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:05.439 two hundred and ninety seven of The Team House. I'm 16 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.799 Jack Murphy and we're here tonight with Eric O'Neil, the 17 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:13.439 author of Gray Day. He served as an FBI investigative specialist, 18 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:16.840 did a number of counter terrorism investigations, including the one 19 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:19.840 that led up to the arrest of Robert Hanson, who 20 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.959 some say is maybe the most damaging spy in American history. 21 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:27.840 Excited to get into all that with him. I want 22 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:30.079 to tell people real quick before we jump into it. 23 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:33.120 There's a link down in our description to our Patreon 24 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:35.400 if you want to subscribe to the channel and support 25 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:38.120 these shows and keep them going, and you get access 26 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:40.760 to all of these episodes ad free when you sign up. 27 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:43.040 So we really appreciate all of you guys who do that. 28 00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:45.439 And also just want to plug real quick my book 29 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:48.359 I have coming out in December, December ninth. We defy 30 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.920 the lost chapters of Special Forces History as chapters on 31 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:55.239 Blue Light Green Light Dead, a debt k the guys 32 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:58.640 who are undercover in Berlin during the Cold War, the 33 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:02.439 liaison team that exists in Korea to this day. This 34 00:02:02.599 --> 00:02:04.239 was a lot of fun to work on and I'm 35 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.359 really excited to finally get it out there this December. 36 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:10.159 There's a pre order page up on Amazon right now. 37 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:13.680 I appreciate if you guys check it out. So, Eric, 38 00:02:13.759 --> 00:02:14.599 welcome to the show. 39 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:16.520 It's good to be here, Jack. 40 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:19.879 So you know, the first question I usually ask people 41 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:21.840 is about their origin story. If you can tell us 42 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:24.080 a little bit about like what your upbringing was like 43 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:28.080 and how that sort of eventually took you towards governmental service. 44 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:31.479 Sure, no worries. I was sort of born into the government. 45 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:33.400 I was born into the Navy. I was the last 46 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:38.000 kid born in the Naval Hospital and Charles Navy Base 47 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:42.360 in Charleston, South Carolina. My father was a submariner, you know, 48 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.400 he sort of followed his father's footsteps. His father was 49 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:48.639 in surface warfare, so it was a tin Can soldier. 50 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:51.159 So I guess he went under a little different And 51 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.120 you know, my my plan growing up was to join 52 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:57.919 the Navy, just like my father and his father and two. 53 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:01.599 Uncles and assorted other family members. You know. 54 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:04.919 My father left the navy when I was rather young. 55 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.400 We moved around a bit and he ended up going 56 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:09.639 to law school. So I was raised in the DC 57 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:15.960 area from about age four and had that basic suburban 58 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:17.199 d C. Upbringing. 59 00:03:18.360 --> 00:03:18.560 You know. 60 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:22.159 My father's Irish, my mother is Italian, so I had 61 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:25.080 the Catholic from both sides, you know, so that was 62 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:27.919 a big part of the upbringing. Went to high school 63 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.680 at Gonzaga in Washington, d C. You know, it was 64 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:36.000 an Eagle, and finally ended up going to college. Now, 65 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:40.719 my plan was to was to go study aerospace engineering, 66 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:44.439 for a year and then applied to the Naval Academy. 67 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:48.360 I didn't get in right away, and went to Auburn University, 68 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:51.879 studied airspace and decided after a year it wasn't gonna 69 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:53.360 stick with airspace. 70 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:55.319 And I also wasn't gonna go to the Navy, which 71 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:55.719 was the. 72 00:03:55.719 --> 00:04:01.360 Most complicated and difficult conversation never held with my parents. 73 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:03.520 My father was great about it. He was like, look, 74 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:06.159 you got to find your own path through life. But 75 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:08.879 I think I always regretted that decision a little bit 76 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.560 and wanted to definitely serve my country in some way, 77 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.919 shape or form. So when I graduated from Auburn, I 78 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:19.519 started applying, and I applied to the FBI, the DA, 79 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:22.639 the c i A, the NSA, you know, secret service. 80 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:26.079 And in those days, I mean we're talking the you know, 81 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:27.959 the the early nineties. 82 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.240 You are ninety five. 83 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:34.199 You you sent a postcard and they sent you a packet, 84 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:37.720 and you used to have theseus these things called typewriters. 85 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:39.920 I'm not even that old, and back then you had 86 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:41.920 to type this whole thing, and it was it was 87 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:45.600 onerous and absolutely terrible, but I did it. I diligently 88 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:48.199 sat there, typed up all those things, and I immediately 89 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:51.519 heard back from the Secret Service, the FBI, and the DA. 90 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:54.040 I had a friend who was in the Secret Service 91 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.040 to talked me out of it, and it was between 92 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:58.279 the FBI and the DA, and the DA gave me 93 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:00.639 a spot at quant I'm there, sorry. BI gave me 94 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:03.800 a spot at Quantico that both DA and FBI train 95 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:09.959 at the Quantico Quantico Marine Base in Virginia one day 96 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:12.879 before the dea recruiter called me to give me his spot. 97 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:17.439 So that one day, you know, between the FBI and 98 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:20.879 the DA completely changed the whole outcome of my life 99 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:23.439 because if it had been in the DA, I probably 100 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:25.040 would have been deployed. I would have gone to South 101 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:29.000 America something like that. I wouldn't have met my wife, 102 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:31.439 I wouldn't be married with three amazing kids. I'd have 103 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:33.439 a completely different life than I have now. 104 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:36.279 It's it's super funny to you know, I've interviewed a 105 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:38.720 lot of folks like you or in this sort of 106 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.120 career field, and I mean talking to people who had 107 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:45.160 these amazing careers like at CIA, like so, why do 108 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:47.519 you join the CIA. Well, they were the first one 109 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:49.879 that got back to me when I submitted to all 110 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.920 these agencies. It's like, wow, Okay, that's how you hide 111 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:55.120 up your mind. Okay, but it all worked out. 112 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:57.800 It worked out great. And look, you know, for me, 113 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:01.519 I wanted to do something outside the norm. I didn't 114 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.680 want to just you know, go be a consultant, because 115 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:07.319 that's what everybody was doing in ninety five when I graduated. 116 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:09.240 They were going to big cities and they were being 117 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.079 a consultant to do something I'm not even sure what 118 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.519 consultants do. And now I'm a bit of a consultant, 119 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.920 but very targeted way. Uh, and I and I wanted 120 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:20.879 to do something that made a difference that you know 121 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:22.959 they I mean, you served when at the end of 122 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.399 the day you have that feeling like I made a 123 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:29.319 difference in the world. And and that's that's I think 124 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:31.920 everybody should should, at some point in their life do that. 125 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:33.879 And that could be you know, working for a charity. 126 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:37.319 I ended up doing that for years as well. But 127 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:40.160 but going to the FBI gave me skills that I've 128 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:41.920 used for the entire rest. 129 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:43.680 Of my life. I continued to use them. 130 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:46.199 It's a unique way of looking at the world. Working 131 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.480 in counterintelligence. That just opened your mind to make connections 132 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:52.000 that you wouldn't make if you didn't have that sort 133 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:55.160 of training. And I'm pretty damn good under pressure. So 134 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:56.920 I took a lot from the FBI. 135 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:02.360 You had an unconventional career at the FBI. You were 136 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:06.279 not a special agent. Did you know that when you applied? 137 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:08.199 Did you know that when you got recruited, that you 138 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:10.160 were not going to be a special agent, that there 139 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:11.879 was actually this other thing that you were going to 140 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:12.680 get sucked into. 141 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:13.399 Yeah? 142 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.879 Well, Jack, when I applied to the FBI was twenty two, 143 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:20.800 twenty one, twenty two, and that was back then you 144 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:21.759 had to be twenty. 145 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:22.639 Five to be a special agent. 146 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:25.959 But they came back to me and said, we really 147 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:28.639 love your application. I guess I spelled things right when 148 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:33.600 I typed it. And they do these KSAs nowledge schools 149 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:35.839 and aptitude and I scored really high on those. And 150 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:38.160 so they said, you know, we can't offer you a 151 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:40.759 spot in special agents class, but would you consider this 152 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:44.360 top secret group. Now it's not top secret any longer 153 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:46.399 because I wrote about it in Grade A and the 154 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:48.800 FBI gave me permission to talk about the. 155 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:50.480 Special Surveillance Group. 156 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:58.120 The classification is Investigative Specialists, and the the aka is ghosts. 157 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:01.480 And what we did is we worked fully undercover. See 158 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.160 idea in the FBI was that special agents weren't doing 159 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.079 so great at following people because those age and agents 160 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:14.439 class you learned so many things. And back back when 161 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.000 special agents were starting to try to follow Russians around 162 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:19.120 during the Cold War, it was, you know, a bunch 163 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:22.360 of buzz cut guys who all looked the same in 164 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:25.399 suits trying to follow an intelligence officer down the street 165 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:28.040 and it just didn't work out. So what the FBI 166 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:30.519 decided to do is We're going to grab a group 167 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.519 of individuals who looked like the kind of people that 168 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:35.799 you would see on the street, that can blend in 169 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.919 and are specially trained in how to investigate and follow 170 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.759 a target without being seen or if they're seen. Like 171 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:46.919 I had a whole disguise kit and I could set up, 172 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:49.000 you know, half a mile away from you and watch 173 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:50.759 what you were doing. Or I could be right next 174 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:53.360 to you and you would never even notice me. So 175 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:55.840 it was it was a very particular kind of training 176 00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:59.960 and very specialized, and like I said, it opened your 177 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.080 eyes to a whole new world that is around you. 178 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.360 You know, people can't people can't screw you over when 179 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.879 you know exactly what they're trying to do before they do. 180 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:12.120 So talk to me a little bit more about how 181 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:14.559 you I mean, did you go to Quantico? Does the 182 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:16.759 training even take place there? And tell us what what 183 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:18.639 that training consisted of. 184 00:09:19.639 --> 00:09:23.440 Yeah, so the so back when I got into the FBI, 185 00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:27.039 I also had a training uh slot at Quantico, and 186 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.320 it's a it's a lot of very specialized practical training 187 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.879 and educational training. So you know, we we saw the 188 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:37.559 DA DA guys out the window while we're you know, 189 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:39.759 in classroom learning counterintelligence. 190 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:42.039 And in order to learn counter intelligence, you. 191 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.279 Have to learn the trade craft of every other adversary, 192 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.799 which is great if you're going to be pursuing targets 193 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:51.840 because I could switch tradecraft based on all the different 194 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:54.320 instructors that we had, and we had instructors from all 195 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:57.879 over the place. H you know, a lot of defectors, 196 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.039 for example, teaching us their trade craft. And then you 197 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.360 see the DA guys running down to the rifle range 198 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:04.799 and shooting and running back and thinking that could have 199 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:06.480 been me. So it was very you know, it's sort 200 00:10:06.519 --> 00:10:08.360 of like it was one or the other way that 201 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:10.240 I was like, that could have been my life and 202 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:13.399 now this is my life. And then there were a 203 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.679 lot of practical exercises, and you know, you you'd live, eat, 204 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:18.840 and sleep there, and you don't do much sleep because 205 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:21.080 they're constantly waking you up and you're running out to 206 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.720 the cars and you're following your rabbit and learning. 207 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:27.399 Those practical exercises. But look, it's it's a class it's 208 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:28.039 a classroom. 209 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.519 It's a educational environment, and you can't you can only 210 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:34.240 do so many practical exercises, but it doesn't teach you 211 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.240 how to follow a target effectively. And I really cut 212 00:10:38.279 --> 00:10:40.440 my teeth once I get assigned to a squad in 213 00:10:40.519 --> 00:10:44.399 DC following Russians around, who are the best of the 214 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:47.919 best throughout d C. And if you can follow a 215 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:50.960 Russian and not be seen, you can follow pretty much anybody. 216 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:56.879 Because those intelligence officers have incredibly in depth training in 217 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.399 counter surveillance. We'd follow it. You know, I also work 218 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.720 counter terrorism. We follow terrorists around and stop them before 219 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.000 they did whatever they wanted to do. And they were easy, 220 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.200 you can only you could almost sleep walk through that 221 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:11.879 because they didn't have anywhere near the training of a 222 00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:16.840 of a true espionage adversary. The difference of course is 223 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:19.240 you know, the worst thing that's going to happen if 224 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:22.279 a spy catches you is they might you know, give 225 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.440 you the finger or you know, go home and then 226 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:26.559 you get rasped by your entire team. You don't get 227 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.360 to work on that person for a while. Terrorists they 228 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:31.559 might blow you up or shoot you. So you had 229 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:34.120 to you had to be still be careful in the latter. 230 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.759 And following these Russians around was these were I would 231 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:40.000 assume like people who work out of the embassy, but 232 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:42.960 are suspected to be like gru guys or something like that. 233 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:46.080 Yeah, in the old ways that espionage used to be 234 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:49.679 conducted where they would actually come over to a country 235 00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:53.960 and and have some sort of diplomatic covers. They'd be diplomats, 236 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:56.600 you know. In the case of the Russians, you have 237 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:00.200 the JU which are the military intelligence unit, and you 238 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.200 had the SVR, which was you know, the KGB. When 239 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.519 Russia collapse, the Soviet Union collaps split into the FSB, 240 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:10.440 which is where they're state police in KGB or SVR, 241 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:14.840 which is the you know, like the younger brother of 242 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:19.000 the KGB who do the foreign intel, and they would 243 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:21.080 come over here under some sort of cover like the 244 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:24.960 third Atta Shade Agriculture and the embassy you know on 245 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:26.759 Tunlow Road in Washington. 246 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:26.600 D C. 247 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:31.240 And their real job is to go in meet with sources, 248 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:35.840 or service dead drops or set signals or recruit. You know, 249 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:38.600 there was a whole line in the SVR and their 250 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:41.320 entire job was to recruit Americans to spy for them, 251 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.000 you know, using the Big three ideology. 252 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:45.559 You think more like me, so help me? 253 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:49.519 Or the best two blackmail I'm going to give you 254 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:51.799 a lot of money and you're gonna help me, or bribery. 255 00:12:51.840 --> 00:12:54.360 I've learned something about you that you don't want your wife, 256 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:56.279 or your mom or your grandma to know. And if 257 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.480 you don't help me, they're all going to know that. 258 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:03.639 Nowadays it's all cyber attacks. The game has changed. There's 259 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:06.759 a complete change to the old days when I started 260 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.799 doing this, to the to the cyber spies that I'm 261 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:10.919 working against right now. 262 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:13.720 I'd like to drill down a little bit more to 263 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:16.799 what the job was of this squad. I mean, you 264 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:21.240 mentioned this counterintelligence surveillance. I mean, is the intent to 265 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:25.080 catch these guys conducting operational acts so they can be arrested, 266 00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:27.320 or is it to follow them and see who their 267 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:30.480 sources are, what is it that you're trying to accomplish 268 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:31.399 out there. 269 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:33.639 All of the above, and it was different every day. 270 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:35.960 I can't get into too many of the particulars. I 271 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.639 got to be really careful to stay on sort of 272 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:40.919 the script that I submitted to the FBI in grade 273 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.639 day and they greenlit. Because much of what the ghosts 274 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:49.639 do remains top secret. It's very classified. And also the 275 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:52.039 ways and means in a particular way you do it. 276 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.960 But the training is the ability essentially to investigate, to 277 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:58.360 put all the pieces together, all the data points, and 278 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:02.799 come up with actionable intelligence and then follow someone watch them. 279 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:03.120 You know. 280 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:06.159 There are many different ways to do that until you 281 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.360 catch them in the act. And that was always the goal, 282 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:10.480 to catch them in the act, because otherwise you don't 283 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:13.120 really have a case. You can't catch an intelligence officer 284 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:15.879 as diplomatic community in the act. Well, then you can't 285 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.759 use that to embarrass the other country and PGM, which 286 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:21.399 means persona nogarada, they're not allowed to come back to 287 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:25.159 the US, so their careers basically over. We were always 288 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.559 looking for legals. Now that would have been the holy 289 00:14:27.600 --> 00:14:31.200 grail those are and I'm not talking about legals who 290 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:32.080 are a crossing our border. 291 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:33.279 I'm talking about. 292 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:38.399 Foreign intelligence officers or assets who are working for foreign 293 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:42.200 intelligence who come over here without any diplomatic cover and 294 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.879 without telling anybody that you're working on behalf of a 295 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:47.840 foreign government. So that's a person who comes over to 296 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.559 the US somehow that is actually a spy, but isn't 297 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:53.960 using any diplomatic covers. They're truly hidden. And if you 298 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:57.200 remember about ten years ago, there was a case called 299 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.240 Operation Ghost Stories. It was the eleven illegals who are 300 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:05.799 identified ten were arrested. Anna Chapman was the was sort 301 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.159 of the star of that ring, just because she was 302 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:10.480 the beautiful one who sort of slept her way into 303 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:15.000 the halls of power. And and they were living just 304 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:18.639 like Americans. Some even had children who had no clue 305 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:19.759 that their parents were spies. 306 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.799 And correct me if I'm wrong. But as far as 307 00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.159 this portion of your career that we're talking about, it 308 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:29.840 sounds like you were following around foreign nationals, but at 309 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:32.360 some point the FBI asked you to start looking at 310 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:38.000 American citizens who you know, were suspected spies. I mean, 311 00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:40.120 that's got to be like a whole different can of worms, 312 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.960 like looking at suspected foreign spies versus an internal investigation. 313 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:45.000 Yeah. 314 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:47.879 No, I certainly worked other Americans as we went along. 315 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.480 I mean, the the spies were the ones that we 316 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:53.279 were after. The first case that I worked as a 317 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.000 as a ghost was Earl Pitts, who was a Cold 318 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.919 War spy that and I detail him in my book 319 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:03.200 Grade Day. Earl Pitts had spied during the Cold War 320 00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:06.000 and so the union then gone completely inactive and continued 321 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.840 to work for the FBI and the behavioral science unit 322 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:09.679 at Quantico. 323 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.200 So he was a profiler. 324 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:18.240 And Pitts was given up by a former KGB source 325 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:21.440 who wanted a better life, sold his identity as a 326 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:25.039 former spy for a bunch of secrets of some great 327 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:29.360 analysts learned all about him, and a team was put 328 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.879 on him to investigate him, and he was what's called 329 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:35.320 false flag. So when you learn when you have an 330 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:39.159 American that's inactive and they've spied in the past, it's 331 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:42.759 a lot harder to pin them down and build a 332 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:45.159 legal case for something that happened, you know, like ten 333 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:46.399 twenty years ago. 334 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:49.919 So what the FBI did was they sent a. 335 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:56.399 Russian speaking special agent who was trained to go undercover 336 00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:58.480 and pretend he was a Russian intelligence all. 337 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.679 Comrade, we need you for one approached them and said. 338 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:04.519 You know, we need your head, you know, and uh 339 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.519 and you know, would you spy for us? And activated 340 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.480 him and he thought he was spying for Russia and 341 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.440 he was actually spying for the FBI. And everything was 342 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:15.880 handing over. And the FBI does this all the time. 343 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:16.799 Uh. 344 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:22.279 You know, a corporation, for example, might might realize that 345 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:24.799 they you know, they're working for the US government and 346 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:31.079 they have a uh an employee who starts stealing secrets 347 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:33.880 and they reported to the FBI because they think of 348 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:35.240 maybe he's trying to give it to a. 349 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.359 Foreign palor power. 350 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.799 Well, the FBI will pretend they're that foreign power and 351 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.319 roll the guy up once he's given a bunch of 352 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:43.079 secrets over and they hand them money, and now you've 353 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:43.599 got a case. 354 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:46.079 So it got all pits. 355 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:48.799 And there were others that I can't talk about that 356 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:55.920 we investigated, both both counterintelligence spies and terrorists. And then finally, 357 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.839 at the what ended up being the end of my 358 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.680 career at the FBI, I was asked to go undercover 359 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:04.880 to catch a very particular style. 360 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:09.839 So, yeah, tell us about that. And I sense that 361 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:11.960 this was also sort of a shift in roles for 362 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.200 you because you'd never been an agent. You'd always been 363 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.720 sort of on the outside and the periphery, but now 364 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.599 you're going inside the bureaucracy. I mean, tell us about 365 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:23.440 how you got recruited for that particular job and why you. 366 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:28.480 Yeah, so I might have been in Washington Field office 367 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.599 and headquarters five times in five years. I worked in 368 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.720 off sites, you know, behind seven eleven's, you know, wherever 369 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:39.519 my target was. I remember one morning setting up on 370 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:44.720 a target, you know, of interest. And this is before 371 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:46.640 I met my wife, and it was difficult to date. 372 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.240 So I was really lucky I met my wife. And 373 00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:51.400 here's why I would. I know, I'd set up this 374 00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:55.160 date with the girl that more. I thought, I'm working 375 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.000 this morning, I'll be done by the early afternoon. 376 00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:57.680 This'd be great. 377 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:00.720 And then I ended up having a caller from from 378 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.880 a phone hours later. You know, I'm not gonna make 379 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:08.000 it tonight. I'm in I'm in Miami. Dude got his car, 380 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:10.759 drove south and we just kept driving. You move or 381 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:12.680 your target moves. You eat when they eat, you sleep 382 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.720 when they eat, they sleep, and uh, and she's like, 383 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:17.079 what are you doing in Miami? And I was just like, 384 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:18.799 I didn't have an answer. I didn't want to lie, 385 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:19.720 so I can't. 386 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:21.279 Tell you that. You know. That was the end of that. 387 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:26.440 So yeah, it's like that. So this case, it was 388 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.079 incredibly unique, not only for me but for the entire FI. 389 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:30.759 There was never a case that'd been run like this. 390 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:35.839 But Hanson was unique because for decades the FBI had 391 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.759 been after this mole that everybody knew, and I'm talking 392 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:41.440 the entire intelligence community that we had this massive mole 393 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:43.880 somewhere within the intelligence community. 394 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:44.480 Didn't know if it was the. 395 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:49.160 NSA, FBI, CIA, where this person was, or if he 396 00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.599 was a he or she, but knew that some of 397 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.119 them most egregious secrets that have ever been handed to 398 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:59.000 a foreign power were being handed over. And uh, and 399 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.200 this the rush reading our lunch. They knew our operations 400 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.799 before we even got them off the ground. So there 401 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:06.960