WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.240 Latest interview of Elon Musk. 2 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:04.639 Bill Gates said, there is no one in our time 3 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:07.280 who has done more to push the bounds of science. 4 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:07.879 Innovation than you. 5 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:09.599 What's kind of going to say, well. 6 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:11.400 That's a nice thing to have anyone say about you. 7 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:13.960 Nice coming from Bill Gates. But oddly enough, when it 8 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:17.839 comes to AI, actually, for around a decade, you've almost 9 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:20.320 been doing the opposite and saying, hang on, you need 10 00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:22.719 to think about what we're doing and what we're pushing here, 11 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:23.600 and what do we do to. 12 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:24.199 Make this safe? 13 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:26.519 And actually maybe we shouldn't be pushing as faster or 14 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:29.000 as hard as we are. Like, I mean, you've been 15 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:30.760 doing it for a decade, Like what was it that 16 00:00:31.079 --> 00:00:33.359 caused you to think about it that way? And you know, 17 00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:34.799 why do we need to be worried? 18 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:36.799 Yeah? I've been somewhat of a Cassandra for quite a 19 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.119 while where people would I tell you, like, we should 20 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:40.399 really be concerned about AI, and that'd be like, what 21 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:42.119 are you talking about? Like I've never really had any 22 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:46.079 experience with it since I was immersed in technology. I 23 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:48.320 have been immersed in technology for a long time. I 24 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:50.840 could see it coming, so, but I think this year 25 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:53.280 was that there's been a number of breakthroughs. I mean, 26 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:55.439 you know, the point in which someone can see a 27 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.840 dynamically created video of themselves, you know, like it, so 28 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:01.359 you can make a video of you anything in real time, 29 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:03.719 or me. And so there's sort of the deep pic 30 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:06.040 videos which are really incredibly good, in fact, sometimes more 31 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:09.120 convincing than real ones and deep real and then and 32 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:12.599 then obviously things like chat GPT were quite remarkable, and 33 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:15.480 now I saw a GPT one, GP two, GPT three, 34 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:17.680 GPD four that you know, the whole sort of lead 35 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.159 up to that, so it was easy for me to 36 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:21.920 kind of see where it's going. If you just sort 37 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:24.480 of extrapolate the points on a curve and as seeing 38 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:28.359 that tread will continue, then we will have profound artificial intelligence, 39 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:31.319 and obviously at the level that far exceeds human intelligence. 40 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:33.439 So but I'm glad to see at this point that 41 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:36.400 people are taking safety seriously, and I like, I say 42 00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:38.879 thank you for holding this AI safety conference. I think 43 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:41.120 actually it will go down in history as being very important. 44 00:01:41.159 --> 00:01:43.959 I think it's really quite profound, and I do think 45 00:01:44.040 --> 00:01:47.280 overall that the potential is there for artificial intelligence AI 46 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.239 to have most likely a positive effect and to create 47 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:53.920 a future of abundance where there is no scarcity of 48 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:56.920 goods and services. But it is somewhat of the magic 49 00:01:57.000 --> 00:01:59.439 gene problem where if you have a magic gene that 50 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.959 can grab all the wishes, usually those stories don't end well. 51 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.280 Too careful what you wish for, including wishes. 52 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:07.879 So you talked a little bit about the summit and 53 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:10.280 thank you for being engaged in it, which has been 54 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:13.800 great and people enjoyed having you there pulling in this dialogue. Now, 55 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.240 one of the things that we achieved today in the 56 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:20.960 meetings between the companies and the leaders was an agreement 57 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:25.840 that externally, ideally, governments should be doing safety testing of 58 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:28.280 models before their relief. I think this is something that 59 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:30.000 you've spoken about a little bit. It was something we 60 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.639 worked really hard on because you know, my job in 61 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:35.719 government is to say, hang on, there is a potential risk, 62 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:38.080 and not a definite risk, but a potential risk of 63 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:39.560 something that could be bad. 64 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:41.599 My job is to protect. 65 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:43.680 The country and we can only do that if we 66 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:46.280 develop the capability we need in our safety institute and 67 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:47.840 then go in and make sure we can test the. 68 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:49.599 Models before they are released. 69 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:51.759 Delight of that happened today, But you know, what's your 70 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:53.759 view on what we should be doing. Right, You've talked 71 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:56.000 about the potential risk. Right again, we don't know, but 72 00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:58.159 you know, what are the types of things governments like 73 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:01.319 ours should be doing to manage and degate against those risks. 74 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:03.639 Well, I generally think that it is good for government 75 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:07.319 to play a role when the public safety is at risk. So, 76 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.080 you know, really, for the vast majority of software, the 77 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:12.840 public safety is not at risk. If the app crashes 78 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.719 on your phone, your laptop, it's not a massive catastrophe. 79 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:20.319 But when talking about digital superintelligence, I think, which does 80 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.960 pose a risk to the public, then there is a 81 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:25.560 role for government to play to safeguard the interest of 82 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:28.800 the public. And this is of course true in many fields, 83 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:32.159 you know, aviation, cars, you know, I deal with regulators 84 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:37.080 throughout the world because of stalling being communications, rockets being aerospace, 85 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:40.159 and cars, you know, being vehicle transport. So I'm very 86 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:42.599 familiar with dealing with with regulators, and I actually agree 87 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:44.319 with the vast majority of regulations. There's a few that 88 00:03:44.360 --> 00:03:46.000 I disagree with from time to time, but zero point 89 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:49.199 one percent, probably less than one percent of regulations I 90 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:52.120 disagree with. So there is some concern from people in 91 00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:55.240 Silicon Valley who who have never dealt with regulators before, 92 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:57.680 and they think that this is going to just crush 93 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.719 innovation and slow them down and be annoying. But and 94 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:03.159 it will be annoying, It's true. They're not wrong about that. 95 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.159 But I think there's we've learnt over the years that 96 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.680 having a referee is a good thing. And if you 97 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:12.599 look at any sports game, there's always a referee, and 98 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:15.159 nobody's suggesting, I think to have a sports game without one. 99 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:16.959 And I think that's the right way to think about this, 100 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:19.519 is for for governed to be a referee, to make 101 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:23.879 sure the sportsmanlike conduct and that the public safety is 102 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.279 you know, is addressed. That we care about the public 103 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:28.360 safety because I think there might be at times too 104 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.600 much optimism about technology. And I speak I say that 105 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.600 as a technologist. I mean, so I ought to know 106 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:35.360 and like I said that, on balance, I think that 107 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:39.560 the AI will be a forceful good most likely, but 108 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:42.439 the probability of it going bad it's not zero percent. Yeah, 109 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.079 so we just need to mitigate the downside potential. 110 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.639 And then how you talk about referee and that's. 111 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:48.680 What we're demonstrate there. 112 00:04:48.759 --> 00:04:49.759 Yeah, well, there we go. 113 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:51.199 I mean you know, and we talked about this in 114 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.560 demos and I discussed this a long time ago, like 115 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.959 literally facing right and actually Demoster his credit and the 116 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:58.480 credit of people in the industry. 117 00:04:58.079 --> 00:04:58.800 Did say that to us. 118 00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.439 You say it's not right. Yeah, that Demis and his 119 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:02.959 colleagues are marking their own homework. 120 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:05.160 Right. There needs to be someone independent, and. 121 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.519 That's why we've developed the Safety Institute here. Do you 122 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.279 think governments can develop the expertise. One of the things 123 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:13.199 we need to do is they hang on you know, 124 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.839 Denis and Sam all the others. I've got a lot 125 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.879 of very smart people doing this. Governments need to quickly 126 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.399 tool up capability wise, personnel wise, which is what we're doing. 127 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:24.240 I mean, do you think it is possible for governments 128 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:26.800 to do that fast enough, given how quickly the technology 129 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:28.439 is developing, or what do we need to do to 130 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:29.680 make sure we do it quick enough? 131 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:31.680 No, I think it's a great point you're making. The 132 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.000 pace of AI is faster than any technology I've seen 133 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:37.399 in history by far, and it seems to be growing 134 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:41.240 in capability by at least fivefold peraps tenfold per year. 135 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:44.360 It'll certainly grow by an automatitude next year. Yeah, so, 136 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:48.000 and government isn't used to moving at that speed. But 137 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:51.319 I think even if there are not firm regulations, even 138 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:53.959 if there's not even if there isn't an enforcement capability, 139 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:56.879 so we're having insight and being able to highlight concerns 140 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:59.879 to the public will be very powerful. So even if 141 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.040 that's all that's accomplished, I think that will be very good. 142 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.279 Okay, y well, hopefully we can do better than that. 143 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:04.680 Hopefully. 144 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.000 Yeah, yeah, no, but that's how fair. Actually, we were 145 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.639 talking before it was striking. You know, you're someone who 146 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:13.879 spent their life in technology. They're living More's law and 147 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.000 what it was interesting over the last couple of days 148 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:18.680 talking to everyone who's doing the development of this, and 149 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:21.000 I think you concur with this is just the pace 150 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:24.600 of advancement here is unlike anything all of you have 151 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:26.480 seen in your careers and technology. 152 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:28.360 Is that fair because you've got these kind. 153 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.360 Of compounding effects from the hardware and the data and 154 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:32.040 the personnel. 155 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:35.000 Yeah, I mean the two currently the two leading centers 156 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:37.720 for a development are the San Franusco area and the 157 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:40.079 sort of London area, And there are many other places 158 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:41.839 where it's being done, but those are the two leading areas. 159 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:44.240 So I think if you know, if the United States 160 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:48.240 and the UK and China are sort of aligned on safety, 161 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:50.959 that's all going to be. That's really that's where that's 162 00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:52.199 where the leadership is general. 163 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:55.079 And you actually you mentioned China there. So I took 164 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:58.079 a decision to invite China to summit over the last 165 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:00.720 three days, and it was not easy decision. A lot 166 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:03.120 of people criticize me for you know, my viewers, if 167 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:05.720 you're going to try it essential serious conversation, you need to. 168 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:07.800 But what would your thoughts? You do business all around 169 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.560 the world. You just talked about it there. Should we 170 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:12.639 be engaging with them? Can we trust them? Is that 171 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:13.560 the right thing to have done? 172 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:15.959 If we don't, if China is not on board with 173 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.439 AI safety, it's somewhat of a moot situation. The single 174 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:22.560 biggest objection that I get to a kind of AI 175 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.560 regulation or sort of safety controls are well, China is 176 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:27.360 not going to do it, and therefore they will just 177 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.040 jump into the lead and exceed us all. But actually 178 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:33.680 China is willing to participate in a safety and thank 179 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.000 you for inviting them, and they you know, I think 180 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:38.519 we should thank China for for attending. When I was 181 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:41.680 in China earlier this year, My main subject of discussion 182 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:44.759 with the leadership in China was AI safety and saying 183 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.839 that this is really something that they should care about, 184 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:50.000 and they took it seriously and you are too, which 185 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:52.800 is great. And having them here I think was essential. Really, 186 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.279 if they're not participants, it's pointless. 187 00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.199 It's yeah, I know that's and I think we were pleased. 188 00:07:57.199 --> 00:07:59.360 I think they were engaged yesterday in the discussions and 189 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:02.519 actually ended up signing the same communicy that everyone else did, 190 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:04.920 which is a good stop right. And I said, if 191 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.319 we need everyone to approach us in a similar way, 192 00:08:07.360 --> 00:08:10.360 if we're going to have a realistic chance of resolving it. 193 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:12.839 I was going to You talked about innovation earlier and 194 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:14.040 regulation being annoying. 195 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:16.680 There was a good debate today we had about. 196 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:18.399 Open source, and I think you've kind of been a 197 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:21.920 proponent of algorithmic transparency and making some of the ex 198 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.399 algorithms public and actually we were talking about every hint 199 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:28.519 and on the way in. He's particularly been very concerned 200 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.079 about open source models being used. 201 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:31.800 By bad actors. 202 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:33.799 You've got a group of people who say they are 203 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:37.200 critical to innovation happening in that distributed way. 204 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:38.159 Look, it's a trick. 205 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:40.879 There's probably no perfect answer, and there is a tricky balance. 206 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:42.799 What are your thoughts on how we should approach this 207 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.799 open source question or where should we be targeting whatever 208 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:48.759 regulatory or monitoring that we're going. 209 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.080 To do well. The open source algorithms and data tend 210 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.600 to lag the closed source by six to twelve. But 211 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:57.759 given the rate of improvement that there's actually there for 212 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:00.440 quite a big difference between the closed source in the 213 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:02.799 open If things are improving by a factor of let's 214 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.639 say five or more than being a year behind is 215 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:07.960 you're five times worse. So it's a pretty big difference. 216 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:10.320 And that might be actually an okay situation, but it 217 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:12.480 certainly we'll get to the point where you've got open 218 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:15.159 source AI that can do that, that will start to 219 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:17.960 approach human level intelligence, Will PAPS succeeded. I don't know 220 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:19.799 quite what to do about it. I think it's somewhat 221 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:21.879 inevermentle there will be some amount of open source, and 222 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:24.360 I guess I would have a slight bias towards open 223 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:26.200 source because at least you can see what's going on. 224 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:28.840 It wears closed source. You don't know what's going on now. 225 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.759 It should be said with AI that even if it's 226 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:32.840 an open source, do you actually know what's going on? 227 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.679 Because if you've got a gigantic data file and you 228 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:38.440 know sort of billions of days of weights and parameters, 229 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:40.200 you can't just read it and see what it's going 230 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:43.639 to do. It's a gigantic file of inscrutable numbers. You 231 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.679 can test it when you run it. You can test it. 232 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:47.519 You can run a bunch of tests to see what 233 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:51.159 it's going to do. But it's probabilistic as opposed to deterministic. 234 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:53.360 It's not like traditional programming, where you've got it you've 235 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:56.080 got very discrete logic and the outcome is very predictable 236 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:57.639 and you can read each line and see what each 237 00:09:57.639 --> 00:09:59.919 line's going to do. A neural net is just a 238 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:02.559 much probabilities. I mean, it sort of ends up being 239 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:05.639 a giant Comma separated value file. It's like our digital 240 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:08.480 guide is a CSP file. Really, Okay, that is kind 241 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:09.000 of what it is. 242 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.600 Yeah, Now, at that point you've just made is one 243 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:14.679 that we have been talking about a lot, because again 244 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:17.120 conversation with the people are developing their technology. 245 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:19.120 Make the point that you've just made. It is not 246 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:20.159 like normal. 247 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:24.240 Software where there's predictability about inputs improving leading to this 248 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:27.960 particular output improving, and as the models iterate and improve, 249 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:30.200 we don't quite know what's going to come out the 250 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.960 other end. I think we would agree with that, which 251 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:33.960 is why I think there is this bias that we 252 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:35.720 need to get in there while the training runs are 253 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.600 being done before the models are released, to understand what 254 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:41.679 is this new iteration broad about in terms of capability, 255 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:44.240 which it sounds like you would agree with. I was 256 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:46.440 going to shift goes a little bit on You know, 257 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.120 you've talked a lot about human consciousness human agency, which 258 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:52.200 it actually might strike people as strange given that you 259 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:55.360 are known for being such a brilliant innovator and technologist, 260 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:57.840 but it's quite heartfelt when I hear you talk about 261 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.879 it and the importance of maintaining that agency in technology 262 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:03.200 and preserving human consciousness. 263 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:04.480 Now it kind of links. 264 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:06.039 The thing I was going to ask is when I 265 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.080 do interviews or talk to people out and about in 266 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:10.279 this job about AI, the thing that comes up most 267 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:12.480 actually is it probably not so much the stuff we've 268 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:15.440 been talking about, but jobs. It's what is AI mean 269 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:17.799 for my job? Is it going to mean that I 270 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:19.759 don't have a job, or my kids are not going 271 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:23.559 to have a job. Now, answer as a policymaker. 272 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.440 As a leader is actually, AI is already. 273 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:27.799 Creating jobs, and you can see that in the companies 274 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.840 that are starting. Also, the way it's being used is 275 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.840 a little bit more as a co pilot necessarily versus 276 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:36.799 replacing the person. There's still human agency, but it's helping 277 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:39.440 you do your job better, which is a good thing. 278 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:43.200 And as we've seen with technological revolutions in the past, 279 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:45.159 clearly there's change in the labor market. 280 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:46.440 The amount of jobs. 281 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.200 I was quoting an MIT study today that they did 282 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:51.279 a couple of years ago, something like sixty percent of 283 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:53.879 the jobs at that moment didn't exist forty years ago. 284 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:54.759 So hard to predict. 285 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:57.320 And my job is to create an incredible education system, 286 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:00.360 whether it's at school, whether it's retraining people at any 287 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:02.200 point in their career, because ultimately, if we've got a 288 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:04.960 skill population, they'll be able to keep up with the 289 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:06.960 pace of change and have a good life. But you 290 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:10.440 know that it's still a concern, and you know, what 291 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.960 would your kind of observation be on AI and the 292 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.240 impact of labor markets and people's jobs and how they 293 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:18.639 should feel about that as they think about this. 294 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:21.360 Well, I think we are seeing the most disruptive force 295 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:24.200 in history here, you know, where we have for the 296 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:26.480 first time, we will have the first time something that 297 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.240 is smarter than the smartest human and that I mean 298 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:31.240 it's hard to say exactly what that moment is, but 299 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.159 there will come a point where no job is needed. 300 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:35.879 You can have a job if you want to have 301 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.759 a job for sort of personal satisfaction, but the AI 302 00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:42.000 will be able to do everything. So I don't know 303 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.440 if that makes people comfortable uncomfortable. You know. That's why 304 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:46.559 I say, if you wish for a magic genie that 305 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:48.600 gives you any wishes you want and there's no limit, 306 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.679 you don't have those three limits three wish limit, not 307 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:52.919 since you have as many wishes as you want. So 308 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:55.480 it's both good and bad. One of the challenges in 309 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:57.480 the future will be how do we find meaning in 310 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.080 life if you have a magic genie that can do 311 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:02.879 everything you want. I do think we it's hard you 312 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:05.120 know when when? When this new technology, it tends to 313 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:07.919 have usually follow an S curve. In this case, we're 314 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:09.679 going to be on the exponential portion of the S 315 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:12.440 curve for a long time and we have to ask 316 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:14.759 for anything, and it won't be if we won't have 317 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:17.759 universal basic income, we'll have universal high income. So in 318 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.039 some in some sense, it will be somewhat of a 319 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:21.759 leveler or an equalizer, because really I think everyone will 320 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:23.960 have access to this magic gene and you're able to 321 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.000 ask any question. It will certainly be good for education. 322 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:28.720 It'll be the best tutor you could, the most patient 323 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.159 tutor sit there all day, and there will be no 324 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.399 shortage of goods and services, will be an age of abundance. 325 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:36.679 I think if I'd recommend people read in Banks, the 326 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:40.279 Banks culture books are probably the best in visioning. In fact, 327 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:42.440 not probably, they're definitely by far the best envisioning of 328 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:45.200 an a future. There's nothing even close. So I'd recommend, 329 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:48.000 really recommend Banks. I'm a very big fan. All these 330 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:50.399 books are good. Does not say which one all of them, 331 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.399 So that's that'll give you a sense of what is 332 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.759 a I guess a fairly utopian pro toopian future with 333 00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:58.960 with AI, Yeah, which is. 334 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:01.720 Good from an as you said, it's a universal high income, 335 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:03.360 which is a nice phrase, and that's it's good for 336 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:07.559 a materialistic sense of abundance. Actually, that kind of then 337 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:08.679 leads to the question. 338 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:10.559 That you pose. Right, I'm someone who believes, you know, 339 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:12.639 work gives you meaning. I write a lot about that. 340 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.240 As you know, I think work is a good thing. 341 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.440 It, you know, gives people purpose in their lives. And 342 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:19.639 if you then remove a large chunk of that, you know, 343 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.440 what does that mean? 344 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:21.519 And where do you get that? 345 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:23.480 You know, where do you get that drive, that motivation, 346 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:25.519 that purpose. I mean, you're talking about it. You work 347 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:26.759 a lot of our you know. 348 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:29.279 As I was mentioning when we were talking earlier, I 349 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:31.720 have to somewhat engage in the liberty suspension of disbelief 350 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.039 because I'm putting so much blood, sweat and tears into 351 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.159 a work project in burning the you know, three am oil. 352 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:39.480 Then I'm like, wait, why am I doing this? I 353 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:40.919 can just wait for the AI to do it. I'm 354 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:43.840 just lashing myself for no reason. It must be a 355 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:45.080 glutton for punishment. 356 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:46.759 Called demos and tell them to hurry up and then 357 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:47.799 you can have a holiday. 358 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.039 Right, it's a plan. Yeah, No, it's a Look, it's 359 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:50.440 a tricky. 360 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:52.679 It's a tricky thing because I think, you know, part 361 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:54.639 of our job is to make sure that we can 362 00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.720 navigate to that very I think largely positive place and 363 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.399 help people through it between now and then, because these 364 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:03.440 things bring a lot about a change in the labor 365 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:04.399 market as we've seen. 366 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:06.720 Yeah, I think it's probably is generally a good thing 367 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:08.360 because you know, there are a lot of jobs that 368 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.879 are uncomfortable or dangerous or which sort of tedious, and 369 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:14.399 the computer will have no problem doing that. We're happy 370 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.159 to do that all day long. So you know, it's 371 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:17.879 fun to cook food, but it's not that fun to 372 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:20.240 wash the dishes, but the computer is perfectly happy to 373 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.840 watch the dishes. I guess there is. You know, we 374 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.879 still have a sports like where where humans compete and 375 00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:29.039 like the Olympics, and obviously a machine can can go 376 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:31.399 faster than any human, but we still have we saw 377 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.159 humans race against each other and have all, you know, 378 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.679 have these sports competitions against each other where even though 379 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:39.080 the machines are better, which there's all I guess computingity, 380 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:41.240 who can be the best human at something and people 381 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:43.240 do find fulfillment in that. So I guess that's perhaps 382 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:45.759 a good example of how even when machines are faster 383 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:46.759 than us, stronger than us. 384 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:47.639 We still find a way. 385 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:49.840 We still enjoy competing against other humans, so at least 386 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:50.679 who's the best human. 387 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.639 It's a good it's a good analogy, and we've been 388 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.600 talking a lot about managing the risks. Just before we 389 00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:57.799 move on and finish on AI, is just talk a 390 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.320 little bit about the opportunities. You know, you're engaged in 391 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:04.320 lots of different companies. You're an obvious one, which is 392 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:06.440 doing some exciting stuff. You touched on the thing that 393 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:09.840 I'm probably most excited about, which is an education. Yeah, 394 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.519 and I think many people will have seen Suth's. 395 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:13.480 Video from earlier this year. 396 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:15.399 Is ted talk about as you talked about, it's like 397 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:16.200 a personal tutor. 398 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:18.720 Yeah, an amazing personal tutor, an. 399 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:19.519 Amazing personal tutor. 400 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.320 And we know the difference in learning having that personal 401 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.000