Speaker 1: Live from the heart of the nation's capital. This is
Speaker 1: a Jim Acosta Show special report. All right, welcome to
Speaker 1: the Jim Acosta Show. It's another day that ends and why.
Speaker 1: In the Natalie Harp saga at the White House, the
Speaker 1: latest revelations include stories about the so called human printer,
Speaker 1: hopping into a trunk in a Trump motorcade if you
Speaker 1: can believe that, and leaving cringy letters behind for Trump
Speaker 1: to read. Let's discuss with historian Heather Cox Richardson and Heather,
Speaker 1: it's great to see you, Jim.
Speaker 2: It's always a pleasure. What do you think about this
Speaker 2: Natalie Harp thing.
Speaker 1: I you know, it's funny because you know I covered
Speaker 1: them during the first term, and there are lots of
Speaker 1: people who will just fall over themselves to suck up
Speaker 1: to him. And it's sort of like a you know,
Speaker 1: a cult apprentice, a game show that he runs over
Speaker 1: there at the White House. But I've never seen anybody
Speaker 1: go as Kathy Bates and misery like you know, Natalie
Speaker 1: Harp has. She has exceeded every level of cult like
Speaker 1: worship of Donald Trump, it seems to me. But I
Speaker 1: know you recently wrote about this or maybe just finished
Speaker 1: writing about this. I was begging your forgiveness before we start.
Speaker 1: I thought this is sort of a lowbrow thing for
Speaker 1: me to harp on today, no pun intent or maybe
Speaker 1: pun intended. But I do think it speaks to a
Speaker 1: lot of different things. I don't think it's lowbra. I
Speaker 1: think it speaks to A. He is somebody who has
Speaker 1: a very damaged psyche and needs constant you know, puffing up,
Speaker 1: and and B you know this is weird. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've heard of presidents having a body man or a
Speaker 1: body person. This is a this is a super fan
Speaker 1: you know who works for basically well.
Speaker 2: Maggie Haberman referred to her on a podcast as a
Speaker 2: human binkie, And I think that's not a bad way
Speaker 2: to think about her. But I'm way less interested in
Speaker 2: what's actually happening with him and her, as in it
Speaker 2: certainly seems as if he needs some kind of a
Speaker 2: minder who makes him feel comforting with and said. And
Speaker 2: she suggested that Walt Nauda, who had worked for him
Speaker 2: at mar A Lago, had a similar relationship with him,
Speaker 2: where he's comfortable with those people around him. And we know,
Speaker 2: of course that he took Natalie Harp with him when
Speaker 2: he got off the decoy plane, as well as Walt Nauda.
Speaker 2: So there's what's happening with that. But I'm way more
Speaker 2: interested in the reaction from right wing media, which went
Speaker 2: just ballistic over the story, because what John Assoff, the governor,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, the senator from Georgia, actually said was incredibly
Speaker 2: mild and not really related to Harp at all. He
Speaker 2: said something like he golfs in trade stocks. See, he
Speaker 2: doesn't want to do the job. He wants to build
Speaker 2: his ballroom and travel with Natalie on their apparently defenseless
Speaker 2: flying palace gifted by the Emrror of Cutter. Now, the
Speaker 2: right wing turned this into a big thing about Natalie
Speaker 2: Harp and to suggest that Asoff had been sexist and
Speaker 2: suggested she was sleeping away to the top and all
Speaker 2: those sorts of things that he didn't say in that.
Speaker 2: So I read this and I looked at the reaction
Speaker 2: and said, boy, this is a group of people who
Speaker 2: is incredibly thrilled they have something to talk about that
Speaker 2: they can put at least some sort of a positive
Speaker 2: spin on for them compared to everything else that's in
Speaker 2: the news. You think that's fair.
Speaker 1: I think that's very fair. No, there's no question about it.
Speaker 1: I think they took a situation that was weird and
Speaker 1: made it weirder. And you know, as an old gop
Speaker 1: Hack told me many years ago, never let the staff
Speaker 1: be the story. And the staff is the story. And
Speaker 1: they've made her the story by the way they overreacted
Speaker 1: to not only John Ossoff, but to my former colleague
Speaker 1: Christen Holmes over at CNN, where the rapid response forty
Speaker 1: seven people over the White House absolutely crossed the line
Speaker 1: and said just absolutely horrific things, invoking Kristen's children and
Speaker 1: going after her. I just thought that was absolutely important.
Speaker 1: But you know, and I'm curious what you think about that, Heather,
Speaker 1: because you know, to me, the way they reacted over
Speaker 1: to the White House makes it more of a story,
Speaker 1: and it makes us need to cover it. You know,
Speaker 1: you're inviting the press to cover.
Speaker 2: It well, which is exactly the point. I mean, if
Speaker 2: we are talking about Natalie Harp, and I'm not suggesting
Speaker 2: we shouldn't be, and certainly what they did for the
Speaker 2: reporter Kristen Holmes is appalling as well, but that means
Speaker 2: we're not talking about the fact that the USS Abraham
Speaker 2: Lincoln couldn't be supplied because of the extraordinary Iranian attacks
Speaker 2: on the only US Navy port in the Middle East,
Speaker 2: which apparently is no longer able to function in such
Speaker 2: a way that it protects our service people. And you know,
Speaker 2: we're not talking about the fact that Trump says according
Speaker 2: to Maggie Haberman again the New York Times reporter, she
Speaker 2: says he's spending about seventy percent of his time in
Speaker 2: the midst of a war that has changed the entire world.
Speaker 2: He's spending most was time on his vanity projects in Washington.
Speaker 1: D C.
Speaker 2: That we know he's funding with taxpayer money that was
Speaker 2: originally intended to go into our national parks. You know,
Speaker 2: we're not paying attention to the fact that he's selling
Speaker 2: access to true socials so people can speculate on stocks
Speaker 2: with insider information.
Speaker 3: You know, we're not.
Speaker 2: Talking about the many ways in which the administration is
Speaker 2: simply falling apart. You know, the national debt is going
Speaker 2: over forty trillion dollars months before anyone expected it. He
Speaker 2: said he was going to lower the deficit. It's gone
Speaker 2: through the roof. I mean, that's why I say I
Speaker 2: think the White House was like, oh, thank goodness, we
Speaker 2: have something we can talk about that might draw eyeballs,
Speaker 2: because if you were working for that White House, what
Speaker 2: possible positive story can you put out there right now?
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, there's no question about it. I mean, you know.
Speaker 1: And there's also Trump turning his back on some Korea
Speaker 1: threatening to bomb ohman. I mean, the list goes on
Speaker 1: and on, but I mean, it is. It is strange,
Speaker 1: what is And I think it speaks to the cult
Speaker 1: like nature of this White House and of the Trump team.
Speaker 1: I mean Maggie Haberman and the New York Times, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have Maggie on the show tomorrow. She wrote
Speaker 1: in The New York Times today about some of these
Speaker 1: weird letters that I guess she leaves behind. One of
Speaker 1: these letters says, I want things to always be right
Speaker 1: between us. I also know I've been distracted all week
Speaker 1: forgetting to eat throughout the days, and even forgetting to
Speaker 1: sleep and only catching a couple hours at a time.
Speaker 1: And then the letter concludes with all my heart Natalie.
Speaker 1: And you know, Trump has basically told the staff, according
Speaker 1: to reports, to back off that basically nobody understands him
Speaker 1: like Natalie does. The whole thing is is very strange,
Speaker 1: but you're absolutely right. I mean, it does distract the
Speaker 1: public from the other kookie things that are going on
Speaker 1: that speak to his you know, his cognitive state is
Speaker 1: mental state. I mean today he was playing tour guide
Speaker 1: around the White House. You probably were working on more
Speaker 1: important things, but he was taking reporters and so on
Speaker 1: on a tour of the new helopad that he's installed,
Speaker 1: which I don't know. I guess you could just you
Speaker 1: can just build whatever you want on the White House
Speaker 1: grounds when you're President of the United States. That's what
Speaker 1: Donald Trump is. A future presidents want to build an
Speaker 1: amusement park, they can do that. But here's Trump show
Speaker 1: on the White House grounds, showing off and talking about
Speaker 1: the stuff.
Speaker 3: He used this for a lot of different things. So
Speaker 3: this is a helipad at the highest level.
Speaker 4: It can lead any helicopter in the world, no matter
Speaker 4: how big, no matter how powerful, no matter how strong
Speaker 4: it would I was explaining for the constructed people. I
Speaker 4: was explaining how when the big, the new big Sikorski's splendid,
Speaker 4: the grass was completely wiped out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's talking about the grass. There's another sound bite.
Speaker 1: I'll play very quickly not to bore everybody to tears
Speaker 1: where he talks about he was almost philosophical about the
Speaker 1: grass and talking about how the grass has a life
Speaker 1: like a like a human being or something something a life.
Speaker 3: Like humans have a life.
Speaker 1: And this is all going to be right now, it's
Speaker 1: put in.
Speaker 4: If you come back in two weeks, three weeks, it's
Speaker 4: in shock. But you come back in two or three weeks,
Speaker 4: this has all been redone.
Speaker 1: It's all been top soiled. In other words, Now, Heather,
Speaker 1: if this was your grandfather and he was showing off
Speaker 1: like the backyard, how he redid the backyard and put
Speaker 1: in some nice plants and some hydrangeas and so on,
Speaker 1: you be like, that's nice, that's very nice. This is
Speaker 1: the president of the United States. And I guess he
Speaker 1: also worked at a plug for Scott's, which you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that was something that people should
Speaker 1: go and buy Scotts today, I don't know, But he
Speaker 1: does this. It's very strange.
Speaker 2: Well, so what I see, actually there is somebody who
Speaker 2: knows golf courses. I mean, actually grass is a thing
Speaker 2: on golf courses and know how to manage it is
Speaker 2: a thing. But and he's you can tell that he's
Speaker 2: comfortable when he's working on development projects, and that I'm
Speaker 2: not trying to suggest that the Natalie Harp story is
Speaker 2: not a real story. Before Natalie Harp was Laura Lumer.
Speaker 1: If you recall, he.
Speaker 2: Has people around him who give him comfortable mental space.
Speaker 2: And I actually think if you look at the White
Speaker 2: House and you look at the degree to which it
Speaker 2: really has been made over to look rather like Florida mansion,
Speaker 2: like mar A Lago, there there are very clearly ways
Speaker 2: in which he is constructing, or the people around him
Speaker 2: are constructing spaces in which he is very comfortable, but
Speaker 2: which again, he's an eighty year old man. You know,
Speaker 2: by all means it would be lovely for him to
Speaker 2: be comfortable. But he's the president of the United States
Speaker 2: of America and we're in a war in Iran up
Speaker 2: to our freaking necks. The economy is stumbling along now,
Speaker 2: you know, prices are going up. We're concerned about the
Speaker 2: cost of diesel, which cost over one hundred dollars a
Speaker 2: barrel the other day. You know, they're there. We have
Speaker 2: we have which we should never normalize, masked people on
Speaker 2: our streets who are taking our neighbors and throwing them
Speaker 2: into unmarked vehicles and taking them way and incarcerating them
Speaker 2: for long periods of time without access to the law.
Speaker 2: You know, there are many horrific things going on that
Speaker 2: require the attention of the President of the United States.
Speaker 2: And and you know, like we all have a lot
Speaker 2: of information that maybe doesn't seem useful to other people,
Speaker 2: like the life cycle of grass, for example, or I'm
Speaker 2: really really good at certain kinds of baking, but you know,
Speaker 2: that's not what our president of the United States should
Speaker 2: be occupying their time with.
Speaker 1: You're so right, and the rollback of civil liberties in
Speaker 1: this country, to me is an undercovered story. And it's
Speaker 1: not just ice. You know, there's this this flock camera
Speaker 1: controversy that I think could be a sleeper issue heading
Speaker 1: into the fall. People. I mean, there are towns and
Speaker 1: municipalities all over the United States who people are just
Speaker 1: in even maga red areas of the country, where people
Speaker 1: are so friggin pissed about these flock cameras everywhere being
Speaker 1: abused by law enforcement so on. And apparently you and
Speaker 1: depending on where you live in the country, they can
Speaker 1: just put a data center in your community and that
Speaker 1: that'll just gobble up the local resources. And Trump doesn't
Speaker 1: deal with any of that stuff. He doesn't want to.
Speaker 1: And when he is asked about he talks about he
Speaker 1: talks about how great data centers are, and it's so true.
Speaker 2: Now let's go back go to Natalie Harp for a second,
Speaker 2: because the other thing that I find really interesting about
Speaker 2: that is all the information that is leaking about yes,
Speaker 2: suggests to me there are people, and we know this
Speaker 2: that they are because of all the leaks, that there
Speaker 2: are people in the White House who are incredibly frustrated
Speaker 2: with where we with where the country is, and with
Speaker 2: where the administration is, and they're taking out their anger
Speaker 2: on each other. And that says something about what's happening
Speaker 2: in the White House. And I would point out here
Speaker 2: that for all that you and I have outlined the
Speaker 2: many ways in which we are frustrated with the administration,
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who are increasingly speaking
Speaker 2: up and pushing back. And one of the things that
Speaker 2: has come out in the last couple of days is
Speaker 2: yet another judge demanding the release of information about the
Speaker 2: Grand jury instructions in one of the cases that the
Speaker 2: administration has brought against an opponent, which suggests that the
Speaker 2: presumption of regularity, the idea that the government can be
Speaker 2: presumed to be acting in good faith, has gone out
Speaker 2: the window, which throws everything open. And then, of course
Speaker 2: we have challenges to the Federal Communications Commission under its
Speaker 2: director Brendan Carr, so you can see that. I think
Speaker 2: this is one of the reasons that Harp has become
Speaker 2: sort of this node that even though also just referred
Speaker 2: to her, he'd rather be with Natalie. I mean that
Speaker 2: was three words basically right, that that has become sort
Speaker 2: of this tornado. I always think of it as kind
Speaker 2: of like a whirlwind dragging everything into it because it
Speaker 2: fell right into the middle of this period when the
Speaker 2: administration is trying to exercise more power, but it's clearly
Speaker 2: getting weaker and people are pushing back. And now, of
Speaker 2: course we've got different primary election returns that the Republicans
Speaker 2: really are in trouble for the midterms. So she's kind
Speaker 2: of perhaps the epicenter completely, you know, without I don't
Speaker 2: think anybody intended this when they stepped into this, but
Speaker 2: she has become the epicenter of the choppy wins that
Speaker 2: we're in right now.
Speaker 1: I agree with that she's totally a canary in the
Speaker 1: coal mine right now for Donald Trump and MAGA And
Speaker 1: you're so right. And I remember this from the first term,
Speaker 1: when the staff starts knifing each other and leaking stories.
Speaker 1: And apparently, in the case of Natalie Harp, that the
Speaker 1: revelation that she was, you know, hiding or not hiding,
Speaker 1: but jumping in the trunk or the way back of
Speaker 1: an suv and a Trump motorcate a few years ago,
Speaker 1: just so she could stay in the motorcate and stay
Speaker 1: with Donald Trump at all times. Apparently somebody showed a
Speaker 1: photograph to Kristen Holmes of CNN so she could report
Speaker 1: on them. And so if staffers are doing this to
Speaker 1: one another, it does tell you to some extent that
Speaker 1: the wheels are coming off. You've got Caroline Levitt leaving
Speaker 1: and so on. But you mentioned the primaries, and I
Speaker 1: do want to know what you think about and this
Speaker 1: was on my mind and I wanted to ask you
Speaker 1: about this. Heather down in Florida, there was a progressive candidate,
Speaker 1: I think she's been associated with the DSA. Angie Nixon,
Speaker 1: defeated alex Vinman to be the Senate candidate in the
Speaker 1: Florida Senate race down down there, we've seen some progressive
Speaker 1: and sometimes DSA candidates do well. I personally think it's
Speaker 1: a little bit overblown and it's been sort of like
Speaker 1: you know, conventional wisdom Washington group think that, oh, this
Speaker 1: is going to doom the Democrats this fall. I don't
Speaker 1: know if Florida was evergettable as a Senate pick up,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of turning that state blue on
Speaker 1: the Senate side. But your thoughts on how these primaries
Speaker 1: are shaking out, how the midterms are shaking out.
Speaker 2: So I'm really annoying person to ask this question too,
Speaker 2: because what I see, and remember I'm a historian, I'm
Speaker 2: not a journalist, so I look for larger patterns, and
Speaker 2: what I see is that we are in a period
Speaker 2: that looks to me very much like the eighteen fifties
Speaker 2: or the eighteen nineties, or even the nineteen twenties, late
Speaker 2: nineteen twenties or early nineteen thirties, in which the vast
Speaker 2: majority of Americans are extraordinarily unhappy with where the country
Speaker 2: is right now, and they are coming together to push
Speaker 2: back against that. And what they are doing as they
Speaker 2: do that is representing, you know, almost the breaking of
Speaker 2: a dam that has been holding water behind it for
Speaker 2: many decades, more than two decades. And so one of
Speaker 2: the words that you just saw a flash up there
Speaker 2: that always makes me uncomfortable is this idea that there
Speaker 2: is the left at work here in the United States
Speaker 2: of America, because what even the people at the state
Speaker 2: level now, the National Democratic Socialists are a little bit
Speaker 2: more than that. They're a big different flavor. The people
Speaker 2: that you were talking about, like Angie Nixon, are actually
Speaker 2: embracing policies that in the nineteen fifties were Republican policies.
Speaker 2: These are not the left in the sense that political
Speaker 2: scientists understand it. The idea of destroying liberal democracy to
Speaker 2: replace it with an entirely different socialist or communist system.
Speaker 2: We just don't really have that many people in the
Speaker 2: United States and certain positions of power who embrace that.
Speaker 2: So the left doesn't really work in America the way
Speaker 2: the right does right now, When you actually have people
Speaker 2: in power who are trying to destroy liberal democracy and
Speaker 2: replace it with a form of far right authoritarianism or fascism,
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just what's happening. So what I'm seeing
Speaker 2: is all these people who are Democrats, yes, and independence
Speaker 2: and even old fashioned Republicans saying, wait a minute, we
Speaker 2: want things like healthcare and infrastructure, to protect our public lands,
Speaker 2: and to make sure we have childcare and that we
Speaker 2: have you know, we're taking care of our children, and
Speaker 2: that we have education. Those are absolutely popular opinions and
Speaker 2: positions that more than fifty percent of Americans want. So
Speaker 2: when you look at what happened in Florida, I'm seeing
Speaker 2: the same thing. Oh, you know, you can't somebody like
Speaker 2: Angie Nixon can never win in Florida. And I'm like, really,
Speaker 2: I don't know about that.
Speaker 1: Because that's what I think. I agree with you.
Speaker 2: You look at the people who back Trump in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 2: that's what they were asking for. So, you know, I
Speaker 2: get a little bit uncomfortable with the labels we're using
Speaker 2: because I think what we're seeing is a huge shakeup
Speaker 2: of both political systems and what comes out of that.
Speaker 2: I actually, if I had to take a bet, I
Speaker 2: would say, we're going to have a renewed, small D
Speaker 2: democracy to face the twenty first century and the issues
Speaker 2: we have there. But you know, I think we're going
Speaker 2: to look at We're going to see very different alignments
Speaker 2: and causes than we have in the past, like data
Speaker 2: centers like AI, like flock cameras.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 2: Healthcare, the things that people really care about, regardless of
Speaker 2: whether they have an R or a D or an
Speaker 2: I or something altogether different after their names.
Speaker 1: I totally agree with that. And I've been talking about this,
Speaker 1: and I think you and I have maybe touched on
Speaker 1: this a little bit here and there, and that I
Speaker 1: think there's a voter revolt that is building in this country.
Speaker 1: I think it is a reformist voter revolt. I think
Speaker 1: that it's hard to pigeonhole this or put it in
Speaker 1: put the square peg into a round hole. There are
Speaker 1: going to be some on the reformist side who are
Speaker 1: going to want to have more progressive policies pursued economically speaking,
Speaker 1: they might want medicare for all and so on. But
Speaker 1: there's also a huge swath of these voters who I
Speaker 1: think want to see democracy make a comeback in this
Speaker 1: country and that we not have a rollback of civil
Speaker 1: liberties in this country. And that is a view shared
Speaker 1: by people on left, right and center. So I think
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you. What is coming soon to
Speaker 1: a theater near you is something that the press is
Speaker 1: gonna have a really tough time covering because this is
Speaker 1: coming from the people, and the people are so I
Speaker 1: think outraged over what is happening in this country right
Speaker 1: now that you know, it might take our breath away
Speaker 1: what we see come this fall. And I totally agree
Speaker 1: with you. I know, I don't know if we did
Speaker 1: keep seeing the flat camera stuff, but I totally agree
Speaker 1: with you that Angie Nixon obviously has a chance to
Speaker 1: win this fall. I think Abdulasat is getting written off
Speaker 1: too soon. I think you could see pickups like in
Speaker 1: Ohio and Iowa and places that we just didn't even
Speaker 1: think all of that was lunacy. Seemed like lunacy maybe
Speaker 1: two years ago, and it's very real now because people
Speaker 1: are so pissed off.
Speaker 2: Well they're pissed off. And also we're looking at the
Speaker 2: fact that you got somebody like Natalie Harp advising the
Speaker 2: president of the United States, and you have a Saya
Speaker 2: in the Midwest is literally a Rhodes scholar, and you know,
Speaker 2: of the two, who would you like to have in
Speaker 2: charge of your country? And of course in that case,
Speaker 2: he would only be one member of one hundred in
Speaker 2: the Senate. But can I just push back on that, Jim,
Speaker 2: you said the media is going to have our time
Speaker 2: covering it.
Speaker 3: Literally, this is.
Speaker 2: Why we have new media. We have people like you
Speaker 2: because we're not in those old patterns and because I'm
Speaker 2: totally going to go all historical on you here. That's
Speaker 2: the same thing we saw in the eighteen fifties, eighteen nineties.
Speaker 2: In the nineteen thirties, we saw the rise of a
Speaker 2: new media to speak to these concerns that were not
Speaker 2: being covered by legacy media at the time. And that's
Speaker 2: where we got the enduring you know, newspapers that we
Speaker 2: know now, but they all you know, things like the
Speaker 2: New York Daily Tribune, the New York Times, the what
Speaker 2: was the Daily Alta, California. It becomes a major San
Speaker 2: Francisco paper. Then in the eighteen ninety it started in
Speaker 2: the eighteen fifties. In the eighteen nineties we get mclaur's magazine.
Speaker 2: So you're seeing, I think, this large societal change, and
Speaker 2: the problem is we're so involved in it that we see,
Speaker 2: oh there's the plane. Oh there's the grass. Oh there's
Speaker 2: South Korea. Oh there's Iran, And we have trouble seeing
Speaker 2: the larger sense of a real political, economic, and cultural
Speaker 2: shift because right in the middle of it.
Speaker 1: No, I so agree with you, And I remember one
Speaker 1: of our first conversations. I think you mentioned the term
Speaker 1: and independent news community, and that's what we're a part
Speaker 1: of now. And yes, we can talk about the daily
Speaker 1: distractions and we can dispense with those stories in a
Speaker 1: few minutes and then move on to the big, meaty topics,
Speaker 1: and I don't have to cut to a commercial break.
Speaker 1: We can just keep going here and talk about this stuff.
Speaker 1: And it's absolutely what people are clamoring for everywhere. People
Speaker 1: want to have these kinds of conversations because they're tired
Speaker 1: of the legacy media sort of spoon feeding them the
Speaker 1: day's headlines that are just so watered down and sinewashed
Speaker 1: that they lack any real significance anymore, and they don't
Speaker 1: really help them understand what's happening in their daily lives.
Speaker 1: So I'm right there with you.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's that's one of those things like I
Speaker 2: don't know how to do it because I'm not a
Speaker 2: policy person, but how many Americans really oppose the idea
Speaker 2: of having health care for everybody like other are?
Speaker 1: I agree with them all have it.
Speaker 2: And when people say, oh, that's you know, that's a
Speaker 2: far left position, it's like, really, if you know more
Speaker 2: than eighty percent of us thinks it's a great idea,
Speaker 2: Like that's a that's a centrist position. And what we
Speaker 2: really need to do is to remind people that the
Speaker 2: definition of the things that we want good education, clean water,
Speaker 2: save food. I mean we have safe food back on
Speaker 2: the table. It is not a far left position to
Speaker 2: say I would like to have faith that the food
Speaker 2: that is on my table is actually not going to
Speaker 2: kill me. And by the way, that's how we got
Speaker 2: the first progressive era in the early twentieth century because
Speaker 2: the fact we knew that the foods that were showing
Speaker 2: up were completely adulterated because there were no regulations. So
Speaker 2: that reworking of how we think about this moment, so
Speaker 2: we center the things that, regardless of your political affiliation,
Speaker 2: you actually want, actually is the route I think to
Speaker 2: not only a healthier country but also a new political system.
Speaker 1: No, I agree with you, and it has absolutely shaken
Speaker 1: people's confidence in this government. When you can't buy a
Speaker 1: salad without thinking twice about it, and when you hear
Speaker 1: headlines about the measles coming back. And you see RFK
Speaker 1: Junior just sounding like a total nut in the Oval office,
Speaker 1: and you know, prattling on about you know, all of
Speaker 1: his vaccine cookie vaccine conspiracy theories. Well Donald Trump naps,
Speaker 1: you know, and with the human binkie not more than
Speaker 1: a few feet away, it is. It is kind of
Speaker 1: a dog's breakfast these days. But Heather, great to see
Speaker 1: as always. Thanks for again another stellar, just wonderful conversation.
Speaker 1: Always appreciate our time together. Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2: Always a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Jim all right, good to see it. Thank you the
Speaker 1: great Heather Cox Richardson. Always appreciate it. And she was
Speaker 1: talking about this new media infrastructure that we are seeing
Speaker 1: emerge in this country, and it's emerging because of the
Speaker 1: failures of the legacy, the name brand news media. We
Speaker 1: talked about this on this program, I don't know a
Speaker 1: gazillion times, and I've got the perfect guest to talk
Speaker 1: about this because there are new headlines on that front.
Speaker 1: And I've got Oliver. I think I have Oliver Darcy
Speaker 1: with me. If not, we'll have to have him jump back. Oliver,
Speaker 1: I think maybe you're saying you can't hear me.
Speaker 3: Oliver, I can't hear you.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's all. Get We'll get the team on it here.
Speaker 1: In just a second. Let me just have Oliver. We'll
Speaker 1: have him jump out and jump back in. Uh, and
Speaker 1: we'll get back to him in just a second.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: Yeah. This happens from time to time. I do. I'll
Speaker 1: move some of the stuff that I was going to
Speaker 1: talk about in the tag to now while we get
Speaker 1: Oliver ready. This sometimes happens. I do want to show
Speaker 1: this breathtaking clip from Fox News. I guess Fox had
Speaker 1: screwed up the other day and said that gas prices
Speaker 1: a year ago were four dollars and thirteen scent. Okay, No,
Speaker 1: we got Oliver back. I'll do that later. I'll do
Speaker 1: that later. Oliver, you're back. You can hear me. Okay,
Speaker 1: I can hear you.
Speaker 3: Jim, I'm sorry about that.
Speaker 1: That's okay, that's okay. Ghosts in the machine, Gremlins in
Speaker 1: the machine, thanks for joining me. I was just mentioning
Speaker 1: a few moments ago that Heather Cox Richardson and I
Speaker 1: were having this great conversation and she brought up the
Speaker 1: fact that, you know, during there are certain periods in
Speaker 1: American history where in addition to a cultural revolution or
Speaker 1: a political revolution in this country, that you sometimes had
Speaker 1: media revolutions and that we may be in the middle
Speaker 1: of one right now. And it is partly what we're
Speaker 1: doing right now, which is independent media coming to the
Speaker 1: forefront and some of this. And as I was setting
Speaker 1: you up and you couldn't hear me as I was
Speaker 1: setting this up, I was saying, part of this is
Speaker 1: because of the failures of the legacy media in this
Speaker 1: country and some of the times they've just stepped on
Speaker 1: a rake and done stupid things like pay these extortion
Speaker 1: payments to Donald Trump to settle ridiculous lawsuits and so on.
Speaker 1: And here we have some brand new examples, and you know,
Speaker 1: on that topic. But Oliver, good to see you. What
Speaker 1: do you think about that. Are we in the middle
Speaker 1: of kind of a revolution that's taking place when it
Speaker 1: comes to independent media right now?
Speaker 3: I think so.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think that you're in the middle of
Speaker 5: a revolution that is happening on or because of political
Speaker 5: pressures and media organizations failing on political pressures and technology.
Speaker 3: The way people just are able to consume contents.
Speaker 5: And you know, ten years ago, Jim, I don't know
Speaker 5: if you and I would have been able to have
Speaker 5: this conversation as easily, for sure as we are today.
Speaker 5: And I don't know if consumers would been as ready
Speaker 5: to consume this kind of content via YouTube and substack
Speaker 5: and behive and all the other platforms. But because of technology,
Speaker 5: because the legacy media has failed to stand as a
Speaker 5: bulwark against Trump's creeping authoritarianism. And then I think also
Speaker 5: just general business pressures because of the technology disrupting how
Speaker 5: people consume content and them cutting the core and these
Speaker 5: you know, maybe no longer subscribing in print newspapers, the
Speaker 5: business pressures on these companies have also accelerated. I think
Speaker 5: some of that appeasement and decline and so you're the
Speaker 5: confluence of factors has resulted in this huge revolution occurring.
Speaker 5: I think we're still in the midst of it, and
Speaker 5: I'm curious obviously where it ends.
Speaker 3: But independent media is surging as a result.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no question about it. And I think a
Speaker 1: lot of this got supercharged right at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the second term when you had ABC and CBS. There's awful,
Speaker 1: ridiculous stories of them paying these these settlements to Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: and then god knows where that money is has anybody
Speaker 1: account of that, We I don't know, but ABC being
Speaker 1: one of those companies and the and yet in the
Speaker 1: last week, Oliver, we've seen a pretty u stark shining
Speaker 1: example of ABC saying you know what, let's try something different.
Speaker 1: They are taking Donald Trump in the administration to court.
Speaker 1: They have filed a lawsuit against the SEC in an
Speaker 1: effort to block this is, according to Ruters, to block
Speaker 1: the agency's unusual early review of broadcast licenses for eight
Speaker 1: Disney owned local TV stations. And I want to talk
Speaker 1: about this because one of the things that it says
Speaker 1: in the story, Oliver, this, according to Ruters, their ABC
Speaker 1: is accusing the administration of employee pressure tactics that have
Speaker 1: forced the network to make programming compromises, such as refraining
Speaker 1: from booking political candidates on popular daytime shows like The
Speaker 1: View for fear of retaliation. That sounds an awful like
Speaker 1: I think it was. It was a James tallerco on
Speaker 1: the Late Show was Stephen Colbert where there was pressure there.
Speaker 1: It sounds like the same thing was happening at ABC.
Speaker 5: And they and they'd even talk about ABC News Jim
Speaker 5: streaming Donald Trump's unhinged, conspiratorial election security speech? Was it
Speaker 5: last month because of that pressure? And they said, because
Speaker 5: you know of the government pressure, they streamed and they
Speaker 5: ordinarily would not.
Speaker 3: Have done so.
Speaker 5: So there have been some you know that the government
Speaker 5: pressure when when you have it applied like this, it
Speaker 5: does result in editorial changes. And ABC is conceding saying, look,
Speaker 5: it has impacted our programming. I think it's I mean,
Speaker 5: I think it's really remarkable for a few reasons. But
Speaker 5: ABC and Disney are definitely taking a different tack now
Speaker 5: that Donald Trump's two years in his tenure. I wonder
Speaker 5: if they see him as a weaker politician. His approval
Speaker 5: ratings and the toilets. Clearly the midterms are coming up.
Speaker 5: He's a lamed president and he clearly doesn't have the
Speaker 5: win that is back anymore. So I wonder if that's
Speaker 5: part of the you know, the assessment as they as
Speaker 5: they kind of figure out.
Speaker 1: What to do.
Speaker 5: But also they've tried doing everything they can to appease
Speaker 5: this administration. They paid them the settlement, they produced over
Speaker 5: thirteen thousand documents Jim to the FEC as they've launched
Speaker 5: this bogus probe into their DEI practices, and they've tried
Speaker 5: cooperating and it clearly has not worked, and so now
Speaker 5: they're left with really no other choice but to file
Speaker 5: a lawsuit.
Speaker 3: And let's re see this week.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Oliver, the coverage you guys have been doing
Speaker 1: over at Status, we should mention the Status newsletter. It's
Speaker 1: just been absolutely terrific reporting. But you know, the thing
Speaker 1: that you mentioned there that I think was very important
Speaker 1: is that, yes, ABC maybe putting their finger the wind
Speaker 1: and saying Donald Trump, you're a lame duck president. You're
Speaker 1: not very popular anymore. Now we could be more courageous. Okay,
Speaker 1: that is that's not a great thing, So we can
Speaker 1: put that to the side. But I will say it
Speaker 1: is remarkable for ABC to have exposed this and to
Speaker 1: have admitted that this has had a result on their
Speaker 1: programming and editorial decision making. CBS has not done that.
Speaker 1: We've needed to see people like Scott Pelley and Cecilia
Speaker 1: Vega and Sharon Alfonsi. They've come out and blown the
Speaker 1: whistle Barry Wise and what they've been doing over at
Speaker 1: CBS and trying to meddle with sixty minutes to the
Speaker 1: point where I don't know, should we even have faith
Speaker 1: in what sixty minutes is going to look like this fall.
Speaker 1: I mean that that is a whole other question, but
Speaker 1: ABC just revealing this to me is.
Speaker 5: Very important, and they saided these as examples, and they
Speaker 5: are clearly other examples.
Speaker 3: I mean, Jim government pressure.
Speaker 5: When the President of the United States is saying, you know,
Speaker 5: is making brazen threats to an organization like Disney, obviously
Speaker 5: that's going to result in some editorial changes.
Speaker 3: I think you're right.
Speaker 5: I think it's actually sort of nice that they've you know,
Speaker 5: conceded that they had made these changes and are showcasing
Speaker 5: for people that Donald Trump is chilling free speech in
Speaker 5: this country. And here are a couple of examples of
Speaker 5: where it's happened in our own backyard.
Speaker 1: That's right, you know.
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think they should have ever obviously compromised,
Speaker 5: and I think it's interesting that they they're admitting that
Speaker 5: they have. But in same instance, it's kind of like,
Speaker 5: here's a couple more examples of where this has happened.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's very true, and I guess maybe this
Speaker 1: goes beyond where the reporting is right now, But I
Speaker 1: sure as hell would love to know how this has
Speaker 1: been going down, because I think this has been happening
Speaker 1: at all the networks. I think it's happened at CNN.
Speaker 1: I think it's happened where there's been this government pressure.
Speaker 1: It's been going on behind the scenes. I would love
Speaker 1: to know what the phone calls have been, like, who's
Speaker 1: been making the phone calls, who have they been talking to.
Speaker 1: Are they getting through to network top executives and then
Speaker 1: getting them on the phone, are their texts and emails?
Speaker 1: I mean, I would love to know if any of
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff exists, because you don't just all
Speaker 1: of the sudden buckle the pressure.
Speaker 5: Well, to me know, what was interesting too is the
Speaker 5: speech that ABC is saying they carried on.
Speaker 3: Their streaming platform.
Speaker 5: Yeah, according to our reporting, CBS News was not planning
Speaker 5: on carrying that on their broadcast linear channel, and they
Speaker 5: had basically come up with a plan that they were
Speaker 5: going to also stream it, and that that was something
Speaker 5: Donald Trump did not want.
Speaker 3: He wanted this to be carried on the broadcast channel.
Speaker 5: And even as recently or as late as you know,
Speaker 5: I think the speech air at nine o'clock. Tony Dakoppel
Speaker 5: signed off the CBS Evening News at seven o'clock saying,
Speaker 5: if you want to watch a speech, watch it on
Speaker 5: CBS's streaming platform. Something happened between seven and eight pm
Speaker 5: when at a PM they announced that they're going to
Speaker 5: carry it live on a special and you know, ABC
Speaker 5: is saying there was extraordinary government pressure. We never really
Speaker 5: figured out why CBS carried it, and my suspicion is
Speaker 5: that Dollar Trump probably was very unhappy when he got
Speaker 5: word that they weren't planning on carrying it, and who
Speaker 5: knows who he called, right or who his administration called.
Speaker 5: There is a lot of government pressure on these outlets,
Speaker 5: and a lot of it goes on behind the scenes,
Speaker 5: and we never hear about it, and it has.
Speaker 3: A chilling effect.
Speaker 5: And I think that's why ABC is saying in their
Speaker 5: lawsuit that if they lose this fight with the government,
Speaker 5: then you can't say we have a free press anymore,
Speaker 5: because because the free press can't be free if government
Speaker 5: is wielding its power to decide who gets to say
Speaker 5: what on the air, how they get to say it,
Speaker 5: and the overall programming. I mean, we've seen Donald Trump
Speaker 5: try censoring critics not only from news platforms but also
Speaker 5: in comedy. Right and Stephen Colbert was canceled. Very interesting
Speaker 5: cancelation there under David Ellison's tenure. Jimmy Kimmel, obviously there
Speaker 5: was the instance where Donald Trump and his allies, we're
Speaker 5: going after Jimmy Kimmel, wanting him fire, and he was
Speaker 5: briefly placed on suspension at ABC. At ABC, and so
Speaker 5: there's been all these instances and ABC is now basically saying,
Speaker 5: you know what, We're going to stand up to the
Speaker 5: school yard bully. We're not gonna try playing nice with
Speaker 5: him anymore.
Speaker 3: Hasn't worked.
Speaker 5: And if we lose this battle, it's bigger than It's
Speaker 5: much bigger than us. It's about the entire idea and
Speaker 5: concept of free speech in the United States.
Speaker 1: That is so right. And if only we had organizations
Speaker 1: in Washington, press organizations and Washington standing up for free
Speaker 1: speech and standing up for freedom of the press. We
Speaker 1: have dinners here that claim that we're standing up for
Speaker 1: free press and so on, but they're not really putting
Speaker 1: their money where their mouth is. I mean, one of
Speaker 1: the things that happened this week at our old network
Speaker 1: CNN is Kristen Holmes, the White House correspondent. She and
Speaker 1: I used to work on the campaign trail together. I
Speaker 1: think she's a good reporter, and you know, she was
Speaker 1: just doing her job the other day trying to ask
Speaker 1: Trump about you know what John Ossoff said about Natalie Harp,
Speaker 1: but about North Korea. So totally legitimate questions. I mean,
Speaker 1: these are not out of out of nowhere, left field questions,
Speaker 1: and Trump blows up, blows his top, which is not
Speaker 1: totally out of the ordinary, but for the Rapid Response
Speaker 1: Unit over at the White House, Rapid Response forty seven
Speaker 1: to put out a tweet that says, someday your children
Speaker 1: will come across your disgusting and inhumane question. They will
Speaker 1: be sick and the embarrassed to have a parent be
Speaker 1: so callous and dendictive. What did you think about this, Oliver,
Speaker 1: Because I thought it was absolutely disgusting, absolutely appalling, shameful
Speaker 1: behavior on the part of this White House.
Speaker 3: And zep Warrant.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think you're exactly right, and you know,
Speaker 5: this White House would be very angry and upset if
Speaker 5: anyone invoked any of Donald Trump's kids, you know, for
Speaker 5: the most part in something like this. First of all,
Speaker 5: her questions were totally legitimate. So the fact that they're
Speaker 5: so triggered, you know, says something. These people rant against space,
Speaker 5: safe spaces, and then they really want to safe space
Speaker 5: a little safe bubble for Donald Trump because he's so
Speaker 5: thin skinned. But the fact that the government, the United
Speaker 5: States government, we're paying these people, by the way, right,
Speaker 5: these are the people, these are public servants that we
Speaker 5: are paying with our taxpayer fund of dollars, that they're
Speaker 5: putting out statements as reprehensible as that. Going after someone's
Speaker 5: children and saying that she's a vindictive person or whatever
Speaker 5: garbage they were floating is disgusting, and I think everyone
Speaker 5: should be able to say that. And I thought it
Speaker 5: was disgusting how Donald Trump was invited to the White
Speaker 5: House Correspondence dinner and given a platform to smear reporters,
Speaker 5: and he launched another really reprehensible attack against Kayling Collins, yeah,
Speaker 5: from CNN as well, at that dinner. And I didn't
Speaker 5: hear the White House Correspondence Association say anything afterward about
Speaker 5: the attacks that Donald Trump had launched with the platform
Speaker 5: they had given him.
Speaker 1: That's right. Nothing is stacred with these people, and not
Speaker 1: even people's children. And Donald Trump goes after Hunt, used
Speaker 1: to go after Hunter Biden, all the time to the
Speaker 1: point now people want to hear what Hunter Biden has
Speaker 1: to say, so, I mean, there is that. But the
Speaker 1: other thing too is and I was looking at this,
Speaker 1: and I don't know, Oliver, if you covered this, but
Speaker 1: I've been looking from time to time at the White
Speaker 1: House Correspondence Association Twitter account and their website to see
Speaker 1: if they had put out a statement or anything. Nothing
Speaker 1: as of right now, as far as I know, you know,
Speaker 1: four forty in the afternoon here on the East Coast, Wednesday,
Speaker 1: August nineteenth, I haven't seen any kind of statement. Correct
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. I think that's terrible. How can
Speaker 1: you not, as an organization that represents White House journalists,
Speaker 1: not say something like we condemn the White House invoking
Speaker 1: the children of a reporter in attacking that that journalist questions.
Speaker 1: I just it's it's such weak sauce. Where are we as?
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess maybe I'm independent media now, so
Speaker 1: I shouldn't think of myself as part of that we.
Speaker 1: But I used to be part of that we, and
Speaker 1: it's just so disappointing and sad.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't understand it, Jim,
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, here. I'm I'm as mystified as you
Speaker 5: as why there aren't stronger statements when Donald Trump. I mean,
Speaker 5: he has gone after the press in such terrible ways.
Speaker 5: I mean from Miss Piggy to I mean, you just
Speaker 5: go down the list, particularly female reporters who seem to
Speaker 5: get under his skin in a particular way, and you
Speaker 5: don't see, you know, often a strong response from the
Speaker 5: White House Correspondence Association. I think they would say, you
Speaker 5: know that their job is not to constantly respond to
Speaker 5: Donald Trump's attacks, but I think these attacks across.
Speaker 3: A very big, bright red line, and.
Speaker 5: At some point, you know, you would like to see
Speaker 5: the White House Press Corps united and say something against,
Speaker 5: you know, when these are things happen on their colleagues.
Speaker 5: And I think the Pentagon Press Corps has actually done
Speaker 5: an excellent job standing together and saying, you know, we're
Speaker 5: not going to stand for this sort of thing. And
Speaker 5: they don't need to be in the in the Pentagon
Speaker 5: to do tough reporting and really eye opening reporting on
Speaker 5: what's happening in the Department of Defense with Pete haig
Speaker 5: Seth and if the worry is that the White House
Speaker 5: Press Corps is going to lose access to the White House.
Speaker 5: Do they need to necessarily be on the lawn of
Speaker 5: the White House podcasting? They can go outside those gates
Speaker 5: and broadcast right outside those gates, And I'm not sure
Speaker 5: a lot would change, you know, I don't know what
Speaker 5: value there is sitting in a press briefing when the
Speaker 5: Press Secretary is not answering questions, using the platform that
Speaker 5: she's been given to launch attacks against the media and
Speaker 5: villainize the press, and not answering any questions. It's not
Speaker 5: like Caroline Levitt was getting up there and saying, oh,
Speaker 5: you asked me this really important question on behalf of
Speaker 5: the American people, let me now provide you the transparent answer.
Speaker 5: She was saying, you are fake news? Why you should
Speaker 5: be a shamed for answering that question?
Speaker 1: Next? Right, that's right.
Speaker 3: So if you lose access to that.
Speaker 1: I don't know what are you losing access to?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a daily punching bag.
Speaker 3: We do a lot of.
Speaker 5: Reporting on a lot of organizations. You know, right now,
Speaker 5: we're doing a lot of reporting on CBS News. I
Speaker 5: don't need to be inside CBS news halls to have
Speaker 5: conversations with sources and to break news about that organization.
Speaker 3: And so if the worry.
Speaker 5: Is that there's going to be a loss of access
Speaker 5: to the White House grounds, I understand why they want
Speaker 5: that access, But at the same time, you know, do
Speaker 5: you necessarily need it?
Speaker 1: I know, well, it feels nice to walk through those
Speaker 1: gates and have you know, the access and you know,
Speaker 1: cameras and lights and all that. People don't want to
Speaker 1: give that up. It's cushy gig and it's nice.
Speaker 5: And I meant, Baberman has done some of the best
Speaker 5: reporting on Donald Trump, and she often does it from
Speaker 5: New York City.
Speaker 1: I rarely, I mean I used to rarely see her
Speaker 1: around the White House because she she would just get
Speaker 1: in touch with the people she needed to talk to
Speaker 1: you to find out what was going on. And you
Speaker 1: do mention CBS Oliver and I mentioned it earlier. What
Speaker 1: is going to happen with CBS ultimately? I mean, it
Speaker 1: is such a poster child for everything that has gone
Speaker 1: wrong with the media in this second Trump term. And
Speaker 1: I just don't know, are we gonna should we sit
Speaker 1: around the living room and watch sixty minutes. I just
Speaker 1: feel like we're It's not sixty minutes is not going
Speaker 1: to be sixty minutes anymore, just like CBS News is
Speaker 1: not CBS News anymore. And it's it is so god
Speaker 1: awful and tragic. I've had CBS people reach out to me.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't obviously can't reveal who they are,
Speaker 1: just like you can't reveal who you talk to. But
Speaker 1: people are just absolutely panic stricken over what is going
Speaker 1: on inside that news organization. And it's it's it's just awful.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you talked about earlier why people are turning to
Speaker 5: independent media, and I think it's because the decisions being
Speaker 5: made across the across the industry.
Speaker 3: The CBS News is a.
Speaker 5: Good avatar for why people don't trust a lot of
Speaker 5: the corporate press anymore. And because they have an owner
Speaker 5: who has decided to kowtow to Trump for a larger
Speaker 5: business reason.
Speaker 3: And uh and.
Speaker 5: They've you know, I mean, made a lot of editorial
Speaker 5: decisions that run counter to what you would expect from
Speaker 5: a news organization.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 5: I think news organizations Jim at their cores, are supposed
Speaker 5: to hold the powerful to account. They're supposed to say, uh,
Speaker 5: speak truth to whomever, regardless of how powerful they are.
Speaker 5: They're they are supposed to shine light in dark areas.
Speaker 5: And they're not supposed to sign off the Evening News
Speaker 5: saluting you know, Marco Ribio, Right, that's not They're not
Speaker 5: supposed to do softball interviews with Donald Trump. They're not
Speaker 5: supposed to hold dinners honoring Donald Trump with their you know,
Speaker 5: with CBS News correspondence, there's a lot of things with
Speaker 5: CBS News and paramounts have done that have destroyed trust
Speaker 5: in that brand.
Speaker 3: And you know, I mean then the even Jim inviting.
Speaker 5: Pete Haigseth to sit at your table at the White
Speaker 5: House correspondent syndiom. This is a man who has said
Speaker 5: to the press, the entire press corps, including like Fox News,
Speaker 5: that they are no longer to be allowed inside the Pentagon.
Speaker 5: He expelled them from the Pentagon that used.
Speaker 1: To America hating. He says, they hate America.
Speaker 5: I mean, and you're going to invite him to your table.
Speaker 5: I don't It makes it's it's insane, It makes no
Speaker 5: sense in you you know, you talk about CBS News,
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people inside that organization it's
Speaker 5: a it's an organization with it an incredible legacy.
Speaker 3: I mean, this is where Edward R.
Speaker 5: Murrow was right, this was this is These are the
Speaker 5: people who sit up against McCarthyism. The fact that they
Speaker 5: are now taking the opposite position and turning their back
Speaker 5: on their own legacy is extremely disturbing to a lot
Speaker 5: of people who have worked at CBS News for their
Speaker 5: entire lives or decades. I mean, I mean, it's not
Speaker 5: just like people start at CBS News or sixty minutes
Speaker 5: and they worked there for a few years and going.
Speaker 5: A lot of these people have worked there their entire lives.
Speaker 5: They poured their souls into this organization. They've gone to
Speaker 5: war zones on behalf of this organization, and they really
Speaker 5: belie in the mission of not only CBS News but
Speaker 5: of the broader free press. And I think they are
Speaker 5: you know, there's a lot of people in that organization
Speaker 5: distraught about what's happening, what David Ellison wants to happen.
Speaker 3: And the same goes for CNN.
Speaker 5: A lot of people inside CNN are looking at what's
Speaker 5: happening at CSNUE. It's almost like seeing like something mutilated
Speaker 5: in front of you and you know you're next in line,
Speaker 5: and you're just watching horror. And I think that's what's
Speaker 5: happening also at CNN where they are really worried that.
Speaker 3: David Ellison is going to take control so much so Jim.
Speaker 5: We've reported that like Paula Reid, who is a chief
Speaker 5: legal affairs correspondent at CNN, she decided to not renew
Speaker 5: her contract because she in part, had a lot of
Speaker 5: worries about this deal.
Speaker 3: And David Ellison and Barry Wise and.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and David Elison is playing hardball. He's saying,
Speaker 1: if I don't get my way, we may just pull
Speaker 1: Paramount out of Los Angeles. So now we're doing hostage taking.
Speaker 1: I guess that's what's happening. He's gonna he wants to.
Speaker 1: He may go ahead and just say we're going to
Speaker 1: damage the local economy of Los Angeles. Uh, if you
Speaker 1: don't give us what we want, that's hostage taking.
Speaker 3: The California Attorney General said it's blackmail.
Speaker 1: It's blackmail.
Speaker 3: It's black one. He's not going to stand for it.
Speaker 3: We'll see what happens. Happens to have a hard.
Speaker 5: Time gym thinking they're going to close the iconic Paramount
Speaker 5: lot or the Warner Brothers lot and and move. I mean,
Speaker 5: that's going to be a hourriculum task alone and expensive
Speaker 5: one too.
Speaker 1: You have fun making movies in Austin, Texas when it's
Speaker 1: one hundred and five degrees in July, you know.
Speaker 5: Like hey, or in the South when it's swampy in
Speaker 5: the summer and it's raining. I mean that there's a
Speaker 5: reason they're in Hollywood. It's because it's actually pleasant weather
Speaker 5: year around and you can kind of shoot whenever. And
Speaker 5: also you're going to chase away talent. And there's a
Speaker 5: whole host of reasons why this business is in California and.
Speaker 3: Why every studio is there. But you know, this is this.
Speaker 1: Is where we're at.
Speaker 5: And these people, a lot of them have been empowered,
Speaker 5: uh for a number of reasons, and they've you know,
Speaker 5: not only has David Ellison given what Donald Trump wants.
Speaker 5: You know, he's he's certainly said the right things to
Speaker 5: Donald Trump, him and his father, because Donald Trump sings
Speaker 5: their praises in public all the time and his administration
Speaker 5: figures are saying we can't wait for them to take
Speaker 5: over CNN. But Donald Trump has apparently scratched their back
Speaker 5: as well. I mean, there was a report in the
Speaker 5: Wall Street Journal that the Department of Justice the career
Speaker 5: prosecutors looking at that merger had some real concerns and
Speaker 5: might have sue to stop this this merger, and they
Speaker 5: were overridden by by more senior people inside the DJ
Speaker 5: and Sidney Trump's DOJ. So you know, that's these that's
Speaker 5: kind of where we are in this country, and it's
Speaker 5: you You think that this sort of thing can't happen
Speaker 5: in the United States, but it's happening before ours.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it's deeply disturbing. And I think what
Speaker 1: you said earlier, Oliver is dead on it is absolutely right,
Speaker 1: and that is we don't really have a free press
Speaker 1: in this country right now as long as the government
Speaker 1: has that kind of leverage over these media companies. I mean,
Speaker 1: you mentioned the legacy of CBS. I mean David Ellison
Speaker 1: has purchased the legacy of CBS and he's sold it
Speaker 1: down the river and he's handed it over to Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: So there, I mean, in essence, the legacy of CBS
Speaker 1: is part of American television history, but it's not something
Speaker 1: that is intact right now. Something else has happened at CBS,
Speaker 1: and I think it is why you know, that is
Speaker 1: part of the reason why independent media is emerging the
Speaker 1: way it is right now, and hopefully collectively as a
Speaker 1: as a as an institution, maybe we're becoming an institution.
Speaker 1: We'll get our act together on a whole host of fronts.
Speaker 1: We'll have news gathering capabilities that maybe we don't have
Speaker 1: right now. In a couple of years from now, you
Speaker 1: are obviously doing news gathering where you are. But I
Speaker 1: do think that this, this this side of the of
Speaker 1: the of the business is going to continue to evolve
Speaker 1: in very positive ways that I think are going to
Speaker 1: be a good thing. And it goes back to what
Speaker 1: Heather was saying earlier in the earlier conversation. It's just
Speaker 1: that maybe it's sort of like that old Jurassic Park line,
Speaker 1: nature finds a way.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was gonna say, the truth finds away, Jim,
Speaker 5: the truth finds away. It finds a way, And even
Speaker 5: in the most authoritarian places in the world, the truth
Speaker 5: finds away. It might it might be, might not be
Speaker 5: an easy way out, but it will, it will come out.
Speaker 5: And I think, you know, regardless of whether it's disseminated
Speaker 5: by legacy media or whether it's on YouTube, it has
Speaker 5: an impact and the stuff spreads, and you know, even
Speaker 5: with David Ellison. I think that's not normally a story
Speaker 5: that the American public would pay a lot of attention to.
Speaker 3: This is a this is a guy who should be
Speaker 3: kind of invisible, right.
Speaker 5: He's a he's the he shouldn't be He's not an actor,
Speaker 5: he's not a major star. He shouldn't be visible to
Speaker 5: the American people. People shouldn't know who Brendan Carr is.
Speaker 3: He's an FCC chair like, that's not that's not someone
Speaker 3: that's supposed to be from.
Speaker 1: We haven't cared about the SEC in like twenty years.
Speaker 5: No, But the fact that people know who these people
Speaker 5: are and they know what they're up to indicates to
Speaker 5: me that it's seeped into the public consciousness. And they
Speaker 5: can try stamping out critics all day long, and they
Speaker 5: can try censoring comedians and going after the press and
Speaker 5: filing lawsuits, but it's not going to work. And now
Speaker 5: more than ever, people are more empowered to get the
Speaker 5: truth out, get reporting out to the public.
Speaker 3: And so while it can be maybe this is a
Speaker 3: good note to.
Speaker 5: End on Jim, it can't be disheartening to see some
Speaker 5: organizations kaw taw and cave to pressure. There are a
Speaker 5: lot of other people who are refusing to do that
Speaker 5: and are finding homes in different places.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very true, very good point. And Oliver, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us again against It's the Status Newsletter.
Speaker 1: If you don't have the Status Newsletter, subscribe, it's terrific.
Speaker 1: Oliver a former colleague of mind, I still feel like
Speaker 1: we are kind of like colleagues, but you're the.
Speaker 3: Found colleagues in a different sense.
Speaker 1: But yeah, in a different sense. That's right. Part of
Speaker 1: the revolution, vivl revolution. Oliver. Great to see you, man.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Jim, thank you man. Appreciate it. And I was going
Speaker 1: to stall for time when we couldn't get Oliver ready
Speaker 1: there on the spot by playing this clip on Fox
Speaker 1: News where I guess they were trying to say that
Speaker 1: the gas prices right now aren't that bad because a
Speaker 1: year ago is roughly the same price, and it was
Speaker 1: complete worship. We should play U.
Speaker 6: Yesterday we heard a graphic that showed gas prices incorrectly
Speaker 6: last year were four dollars and thirteen cents a gallon.
Speaker 3: There in fact four dollars and.
Speaker 6: Thirteen three dollars and thirteen cents a gallon. That's ninety
Speaker 6: cents more in the past year. The Trump administration says
Speaker 6: those gas prices will fall quickly once the operations in
Speaker 6: Iran end.
Speaker 1: And there's the Fox cleanup they had to clean up
Speaker 1: on Aisle sixteen hundred, where that reporter there had to
Speaker 1: come on and say, no, no, no, it wasn't four
Speaker 1: dollars and thirteen cents a year is three dollars and
Speaker 1: thirteen cents a year ago. And now you're paying about
Speaker 1: ninety cents a gallon more for your gas. You know,
Speaker 1: forgive Fox or don't forgive Fox, I should say, for
Speaker 1: trying to pull the wool over your eyes and bullshit
Speaker 1: you about the state of the economy right now. The
Speaker 1: American people know exactly what the state of the economy
Speaker 1: is right now. They know they are getting the shaft
Speaker 1: at the gas pump. They know they're getting the shaft
Speaker 1: at the grocery store. And I'm going to tell you
Speaker 1: that you may be getting the shaft in ways that
Speaker 1: you hadn't thought about in some time, depending on how
Speaker 1: this economy is managed or mismanaged by Trump and his
Speaker 1: motley crew over at the White House. I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: read this because I don't typically do this during the show.
Speaker 1: On occasion when Sam is here, He'll be like, Jim,
Speaker 1: there's breaking news, and I'll say, well, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: we talk about this, maybe we won't. I do want
Speaker 1: to mention this one piece of breaking news before we go.
Speaker 1: The US debt. This, according to the New York Times,
Speaker 1: has just came out. The US debt. The national debt
Speaker 1: has hit forty trillion dollars. Forty trillion dollars. This just happened.
Speaker 1: Happened today. Apparently this is official. This courting New York Times,
Speaker 1: America's gross national debt has topped forty trillion dollars for
Speaker 1: the first time, in an ominous milestone for an economy
Speaker 1: that sits on a shaky fiscal foundation. After decades of
Speaker 1: borrowing to pay for the rising costs of the military,
Speaker 1: social safety net programs, and Donald Trump's tax cuts. This
Speaker 1: year alone, the United States is on track to borrow
Speaker 1: more than two trillion dollars to help pay for its obligations,
Speaker 1: including spending on the war in Iran and the sweeping
Speaker 1: tax cuts that Republicans enacted in twenty twenty five. So
Speaker 1: Fox News may fuck this up and not be able
Speaker 1: to tell you what the price of gallon is, which
Speaker 1: really any competent monkey would be able to do. But
Speaker 1: at Fox, it's too challenging to tell you what the
Speaker 1: exact price of gas is at any given moment. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's astounding what they do over there. But ladies and gentlemen,
Speaker 1: I would love to know whether or not, by this
Speaker 1: time tomorrow whether Fox is going to report that the
Speaker 1: national debt has hit forty trillion dollars. Are we going
Speaker 1: to report on how Donald Trump has crashed this economy
Speaker 1: into the ground, because I mean, it seems to me
Speaker 1: that that is what's coming down the pike and he
Speaker 1: and and for folks I see Byron Donald's go on
Speaker 1: the news and try to blame the state of the
Speaker 1: economy on Joe Biden, who has been out of office
Speaker 1: for two years. Get the fuck out of here, Get
Speaker 1: the fuck out of here, Byron Donalds. Donald Trump is
Speaker 1: the one who wanted to extend his tax cuts. Donald
Speaker 1: Trump is the one who took this country into a
Speaker 1: war of choice in the middle of something he said
Speaker 1: he would never do, and then he did it. And
Speaker 1: he was so confident because of his reality TV game
Speaker 1: show magic, that he was going to get the country
Speaker 1: out of this in five or six weeks and we're
Speaker 1: still stuck in it. And all summer long, people took
Speaker 1: their family vacations, loaded the kids into the car, and
Speaker 1: got the shaft every time they went to the gas pump.
Speaker 1: And now the national debt, because we have pete hexeth
Speaker 1: over at the Pentagon, we can't manage a war, and
Speaker 1: they're scaring off all the generals and they're firing confident generals.
Speaker 1: They've screwed themselves with the war with Iran, and that's
Speaker 1: going to continue to cost us money. And so, ladies
Speaker 1: and gentlemen, the bills are starting to pile up. And
Speaker 1: for those of us who are responsible adults and grown
Speaker 1: ups and know something when it comes to managing a
Speaker 1: family budget of our own, balancing our own checkbook at home,
Speaker 1: taking care of our own fiscal affairs at home, we
Speaker 1: all know what is coming down the pike. We all
Speaker 1: know what is possibly coming down the pike. We've seen
Speaker 1: we had a financial crisis. Was it eighteen years ago?
Speaker 1: You think we're immune to that. Now when the national debt,
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, h's forty trillion dollars. We need to
Speaker 1: be paying attention to a lot more than just the
Speaker 1: human printer and Donald Trump's binky over at the White House.
Speaker 1: Natalie Harp is not going to be able to leave
Speaker 1: too many personal notes behind, in personal letters behind for
Speaker 1: Donald Trump to cheer him up if he crashes this
Speaker 1: economy into into the ground, which is the way it's
Speaker 1: looking right now, and it's shaping up to be a
Speaker 1: very serious situation on the fiscal front. I saw this
Speaker 1: as Oliver and I were talking. A little thing flashed
Speaker 1: up on my screen, and you know, this is what happens, ladies, gylemen.
Speaker 1: This is what happens when you put the most incompetent
Speaker 1: people in politics in charge of very important things in
Speaker 1: American society. And I was just going to say one other,
Speaker 1: one other thing before we go, because we were we've
Speaker 1: been talking about I talked about vaccines, and we saw
Speaker 1: Ran Paul and all these people going after doctor Fauci,
Speaker 1: and you saw RFK June. You're talking about vaccines and
Speaker 1: how terrible vaccines are. This was this is another thing
Speaker 1: that happened today, and I just want to say I
Speaker 1: think that you know, we need to we might need
Speaker 1: to start trusting the scientists. I don't know, but this
Speaker 1: is new York Times, an experimental m RNA vaccine allowing
Speaker 1: people with high risk mellanoma to live longer cancer free,
Speaker 1: and a large, closely watched trial the pharmaceutical companies Maderna
Speaker 1: and Murk announced on Wednesday. For decades, cancer vaccines have
Speaker 1: been one of the most tantalizing ideas in cancer treatment,
Speaker 1: offering the hope of harnessing a person's own immune system
Speaker 1: to attack tumors. A pediatric oncologist the University of Florida says, quote,
Speaker 1: this is a big deal. The results you said could
Speaker 1: usher a whole new wave of new therapeutic treatments for
Speaker 1: cancer ladies and gentlemen. Could we be on the cusp
Speaker 1: of a cancer vaccine in this country? Do I know
Speaker 1: the answer to that question. I don't know the answer
Speaker 1: to that question. But maybe we should just stop demonizing
Speaker 1: the scientists of this country. I don't know. There's just
Speaker 1: a thought, maybe we could just stop doing that for
Speaker 1: five seconds, because perhaps human ingenuity, the wonders of science,
Speaker 1: the people who are on the case when it comes
Speaker 1: to developing these kinds of life saving vaccines, maybe we
Speaker 1: shouldn't turn them all into villains. It's just a thought
Speaker 1: before we end the show, and maybe the people who
Speaker 1: are running the government could spend more time tackling the
Speaker 1: national debt and less time demonizing people like doctor Fauci.
Speaker 1: Another thought, just another quick thought before we go. Maybe
Speaker 1: I've freaked out maggot too much today. Who knows. But
Speaker 1: I want to thank Heather Cox Richardson for joining me
Speaker 1: today for a terrific conversation. I always love when we
Speaker 1: talk about the idea of independent media and independent news
Speaker 1: community in this country. Folks, whatever you can do to
Speaker 1: support independent media in this country, you are doing the
Speaker 1: right thing. Take it from your old Palajam. You are
Speaker 1: doing the right thing. So anytime you can share this video,
Speaker 1: subscribe like it, any of those things you are supporting,
Speaker 1: you were lifting up independent media in this country. And
Speaker 1: you saw what happened on this program today. I had
Speaker 1: Heather Cox Richardson, who is one of the deans of
Speaker 1: independent media in this country. Right now on the program
Speaker 1: had Oliver Darcy, who is one of the deans when
Speaker 1: it comes to reporting on the media in this country.
Speaker 1: Both operating very successful enterprises in independent media. And so
Speaker 1: you can feel to me, it feels like the pieces
Speaker 1: of the puzzle are coming together. You could feel some
Speaker 1: just forces of the universe coming together when it comes
Speaker 1: to lifting up independent media, and if you can be
Speaker 1: a part of that, it's a great thing. Also, want
Speaker 1: to say one quick thing before we go. Our new
Speaker 1: daily newsletter is doing gangbusters. The jim a constant morning memo.
Speaker 1: If you're a paid subscriber on substack or YouTube. Yes,
Speaker 1: on YouTube, you can get the gym a constant morning
Speaker 1: memo every day coming to you. It's terrific. We're very
Speaker 1: proud of it. And we're also working on a daily
Speaker 1: video newsletter. Put that out there today. We're going to
Speaker 1: be doing more of that as the days go on here,
Speaker 1: as we get close to these midterms. We're about what
Speaker 1: seventy five days or so from the midterms this fall,
Speaker 1: seventy five seventy six days ago. It's going to be
Speaker 1: a sprint to the finish. But thanks everybody for tuning
Speaker 1: in today. Really appreciate it. Still reporting from Washington. I'm
Speaker 1: Jimmy Coste. I'll see you next time.