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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the death of Jennifer Fairgate. Robin,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want to catch everyone up on what we

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<v Speaker 1>talked about in our previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this particular case takes place in Oslo, Norway, in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety five at the Oslo Plaza, which is pretty

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<v Speaker 2>much the fanciest hotel in the city, and Jennifer Fairgate

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<v Speaker 2>is not the victim's actual name, that's just the name

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<v Speaker 2>she used when she decided to check in there. She

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<v Speaker 2>appeared to be in her twenties, but surprisingly she did

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<v Speaker 2>not provide any valid form of identification or a credit card,

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<v Speaker 2>and the information she provided was false. She said she

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<v Speaker 2>was from some small village in Belgium, but no tangible

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<v Speaker 2>connection could be found between her and the location, and

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<v Speaker 2>she stayed there for a few days and the staff

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<v Speaker 2>tried to contact her to get her to come down

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<v Speaker 2>and pay the bill, but they eventually decided to send

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<v Speaker 2>a security guard up there, and when he knocked on

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<v Speaker 2>the door, he heard a gun shot, and when they

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<v Speaker 2>managed to make it inside the room, they discovered that

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<v Speaker 2>Jennifer was the victim of a self inflicted gunshot wound. Surprisingly,

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<v Speaker 2>she did not have a lot of possessions in there,

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<v Speaker 2>like additional clothing. According to keycard records, she had left

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<v Speaker 2>the hotel a couple times while staying there, but no

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<v Speaker 2>one knows her whereaboats. There was one point where it

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<v Speaker 2>seemed like she was gone for at least twelve hours

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<v Speaker 2>and spent the night elsewhere, And eventually they started looking

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<v Speaker 2>into the possibility that she could have been a spy

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<v Speaker 2>or someone involved in espionage and criminal activity, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>even speculation that her suicide may have actually been a

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<v Speaker 2>murderer and that she was killed by a skilled assassin

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<v Speaker 2>who somehow managed to make it out of the room

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<v Speaker 2>before security burst inside. So they have exhumed her body

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<v Speaker 2>for DNA testing, but have yet to match it with anybody.

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<v Speaker 2>And even though this case has gotten national exposure international

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<v Speaker 2>exposure after being featured on Unsolved Mysteries on Netflix, we

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<v Speaker 2>still don't know the true identity of Jennifer Fairgate or

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<v Speaker 2>why she checked into the hotel and what was the

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<v Speaker 2>reason for her suicide. So, like we mentioned, there have

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<v Speaker 2>been all sorts of wild theories about Jennifer Fairgate's identity,

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<v Speaker 2>but for all we know, she may have just been

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<v Speaker 2>a lonely person who decided she wanted to spend her

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<v Speaker 2>last few days in a luxurious, five star hotel before

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<v Speaker 2>she killed herself. There are many other documented cases of

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<v Speaker 2>people who travel to the locations they have no ties

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<v Speaker 2>to check into a hotel under a false name and

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<v Speaker 2>then end their own life. Of course, my first exposure

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<v Speaker 2>to this situation was the Gail Delano case from Unsolved Mysteries,

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<v Speaker 2>as she staged her disappearance from her home state of Maine,

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<v Speaker 2>traveled to Alabama, checked into a local hotel under a

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<v Speaker 2>fake name, and then overdosed on pills, causing her to

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<v Speaker 2>remain an unidentified Jane Doe for over two years. As

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<v Speaker 2>another example, there was the man who checked into a

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<v Speaker 2>motel in Washington State under the false name Lyle Stevick.

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<v Speaker 2>He proceeded to hang himself in the room's closet, and

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<v Speaker 2>it would be nearly seventeen years before he was identified

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<v Speaker 2>by genetic genealogy. Both the trail went cold and the

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<v Speaker 2>path went chile. Ub also covered the story of a

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<v Speaker 2>man who checked into a hotel in Ireland under the

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<v Speaker 2>fake name Peter Bergman, and shortly after checking out a

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<v Speaker 2>few days later, he was found dead on a local beach.

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<v Speaker 2>Much like with Jennifer Fairgate, Peter carried no identification and

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<v Speaker 2>it became apparent that he was not from the area

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<v Speaker 2>and may have been Austrian or German. The key difference

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<v Speaker 2>between these two cases is that there is a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of CCTV footage of Peter's movements in the days prior

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<v Speaker 2>to his death, as he was captured exiting the hotel

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<v Speaker 2>on multiple occasions while carrying bags which were not in

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<v Speaker 2>his possession whenever he returned. So this has led to

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<v Speaker 2>speculation that Peter spent the last days of his life

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<v Speaker 2>gradually disposing of personal items which might have held close

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<v Speaker 2>to his which might have held clues to his identity.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though it seems like Jennifer left the Oslo Plaza

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<v Speaker 2>for an extended period of time during her stay there,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't have the luxury of tracking her movements since

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<v Speaker 2>the police just wrote off her death as a suicide

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<v Speaker 2>and never bothered to check the hotel security cameras.

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<v Speaker 3>When you look at her case and you look at

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<v Speaker 3>the items that were left in her hotel room, am

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<v Speaker 3>I right in remembering that she actually did not have

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<v Speaker 3>very many clothing items? They were kind of some obscure

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<v Speaker 3>clothing items, and what she did have, including her shoes,

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<v Speaker 3>had the labels removed from them, the designer labels.

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<v Speaker 1>Except the blazer.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much like she had the labels removed from

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<v Speaker 2>the shoes and most of her clothing except the blazer.

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<v Speaker 2>And she didn't have a change of clothes there, like

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<v Speaker 2>she was found wearing a long black leather jacket and

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<v Speaker 2>a bra and black silk pajamas, shorts and stockings, but

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<v Speaker 2>no actual painants or skirts or anything like that. So

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<v Speaker 2>you have to wonder did she have any other clothing

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<v Speaker 2>when she checked in here or did she just gradually

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<v Speaker 2>dispose of it over the few days of her state.

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<v Speaker 1>We definitely have to send a lot of thanks towards

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<v Speaker 1>investigative journalist Lars Christian Wegner, because if he had not

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<v Speaker 1>taken an interest in uncovering Jennifer Fairgate's true identity, her

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<v Speaker 1>story might have faded into complete obscurity and she would

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<v Speaker 1>be nothing more than a Jane Doe languishing in a

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<v Speaker 1>pauper's grave. In twenty seventeen, Wegner published an extensive article

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<v Speaker 1>about this case in the Norwegian newspaper Verden's Gong, and

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<v Speaker 1>he likely played a huge role in getting the story

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<v Speaker 1>featured on Unsolved Mysteries. Since Robert Stack is no longer

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<v Speaker 1>around and the Netflix reboot does not have an official host,

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<v Speaker 1>Wegner pretty much had to function as the episode's narrator

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<v Speaker 1>in order to share the details of the case with

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<v Speaker 1>English language audiences. If you look up Wegner's original article

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<v Speaker 1>from Verden's Gong, you'll find a video for a thirty

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<v Speaker 1>minute documentary titled Mystery at the Oslo Plaza, which fills

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<v Speaker 1>in some of the gaps in the story and clarifies

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<v Speaker 1>key details that Unsolved Mysteries left out. Of course, after

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<v Speaker 1>the Unsolved Mysteries episode aired, the big question many viewers

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<v Speaker 1>seemed to have was how in the world was Jennifer

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<v Speaker 1>Fairgate able to check into the Oslo Plaza without a

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<v Speaker 1>credit card and proper identification. I know this was nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety five, but even back then this hotel had very

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<v Speaker 1>strict rules about security, and it's difficult enough to check

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<v Speaker 1>into a cheap, fleabag motel without an idea or credit card,

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<v Speaker 1>let alone the most luxurious, expensive hotel in Oslo. Even

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<v Speaker 1>if they were willing to make an exception for her,

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<v Speaker 1>you'd think the staff would have required her to provide

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<v Speaker 1>an advance payment in cash, but she managed to stay

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<v Speaker 1>there for three nights without paying anything. I think this

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<v Speaker 1>has helped elevate the conspiracy theories that Jennifer Fairgate was

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<v Speaker 1>a spy involved in espionage with connections at the hotel

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<v Speaker 1>who were willing to give her a room without following

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<v Speaker 1>proper procedure.

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<v Speaker 3>It's definitely a possibility, But aren't there a million other

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<v Speaker 3>possibilities too, Like let's say she was a sex worker

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<v Speaker 3>and she happened to be with the manager of the

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<v Speaker 3>hotel and he let her stay there. Or if she was,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, running drugs and someone at the hotel was

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<v Speaker 3>buying drugs from her and they let her stay there,

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<v Speaker 3>or I mean, or I don't know that she conned

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<v Speaker 3>her way in somehow that her rich, fancy husband was

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<v Speaker 3>coming to stay with her in a few minutes and

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<v Speaker 3>she just doesn't have a card and she's a damsel

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<v Speaker 3>in distress and she needed help and they helped her,

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<v Speaker 3>and then it got lost.

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<v Speaker 4>In the shuffle.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, yes, could she be a spy, sure, But

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<v Speaker 3>I really think if you sat back and think of it,

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<v Speaker 3>there's a million ways that humans could bypass the rules

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<v Speaker 3>and say, hey, just this one time, let's do this,

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<v Speaker 3>or you know, let's allow her to do this.

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<v Speaker 1>But don't you guys think that the clerk who checked

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<v Speaker 1>Jennifer in would hold all of those answers, because if

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<v Speaker 1>it was indeed a manager who pressured them to check

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<v Speaker 1>Jennifer in without the proper you know, credit card or

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<v Speaker 1>advanced PA, then that clerk would be able to relay

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<v Speaker 1>that to the police officers, or if it was any

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<v Speaker 1>other situation, say they knew her and they let it

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<v Speaker 1>slide for one reason or the other. Do we know

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<v Speaker 1>any of those details, Robin? Uh?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I'm actually about to share them right now, because

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't address the clerk on the Unsolved Mystery segment.

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<v Speaker 2>But this Mystery at the Oslo Plaza documentary does feature

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<v Speaker 2>an interview with the actual clerk, and he does share

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<v Speaker 2>some of the details, So I'm going to tell you

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<v Speaker 2>about them right now. So, like I said, the Mystery

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<v Speaker 2>at the Oslo Plaza documentary does address the issue by

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<v Speaker 2>featuring an interview with Sasha Renee and Nonsen. The actual

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<v Speaker 2>receptionist who check Jennifer in that night a Nonsense shares

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<v Speaker 2>all the details about what happened and says that he

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<v Speaker 2>never detected anything unusual about Jennifer, though he doesn't really

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<v Speaker 2>address why exactly he allowed her to rent the room

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<v Speaker 2>without proper ID and a credit card. However, it has

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<v Speaker 2>been mentioned that when Jennifer checked in, it was a

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<v Speaker 2>busier night than usual at the hotel, as three flights

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<v Speaker 2>from major airlines all Land did at Oslo Airport, and

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<v Speaker 2>there was a police officer strike taking place at the

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<v Speaker 2>airport's passport control office. Long story short, it sounds like

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<v Speaker 2>everything was going wrong and a ton of people were

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<v Speaker 2>flocking to the Oslo Plaza for accommodations, so the hotel

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<v Speaker 2>seemed to have the mindset that they wanted all of

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<v Speaker 2>their guests to be checked into their rooms as quickly

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<v Speaker 2>as possible without hassel. While details are vague, this might

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<v Speaker 2>explain why Jennifer was allowed to get a room without

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<v Speaker 2>ID or a credit card, as a Nonsen may have

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<v Speaker 2>assumed that she would provide payment and sort out the

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<v Speaker 2>situation in a later time when things were less busy.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though he never admits this, part of me wonders

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<v Speaker 2>if Jennifer might have given a Nonsen a generous cash tip.

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<v Speaker 2>To let her check in under these circumstances. However, we

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<v Speaker 2>know that Jennifer originally made a reservation on May the

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<v Speaker 2>twenty second, and then called them again on the thirty

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<v Speaker 2>first to confirm that she would be arriving that night.

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<v Speaker 2>But if the hotel had not been busy, how could

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<v Speaker 2>Jennifer be certain they would allow her to check in?

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<v Speaker 2>She we actually have ID and a credit card in

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<v Speaker 2>her possession, which she disposed of at a later time.

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<v Speaker 2>Did she just get lucky that she didn't have to

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<v Speaker 2>present these items when she registered? I know a nonsen

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<v Speaker 2>makes it sound like there was nothing unusual about the transaction,

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<v Speaker 2>but I still have to wonder if there's more to

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<v Speaker 2>this story.

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<v Speaker 3>There are definitely people who would not share details once

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<v Speaker 3>a crime happened right in fear of getting caught up

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<v Speaker 3>in it. But if I knew that there was a

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<v Speaker 3>young lady who killed herself or completed suicide in her room,

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<v Speaker 3>and that she was dead, I feel like the cash

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<v Speaker 3>tip I got as a front desk clerk, or allowing

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<v Speaker 3>them to break the rules a little bit, would not

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<v Speaker 3>have stopped me from saying like this is what I know,

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<v Speaker 3>Like I don't know who she is, but if I

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<v Speaker 3>can help, here's information. I guess some people just wouldn't.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, this documentary was made in twenty seventeen, and

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<v Speaker 2>of course Jennifer checked in in nineteen ninety five, so

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not entirely sure that A. Nonsen was still working

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<v Speaker 2>at the hotel after all that time when the documentary

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<v Speaker 2>was filled. I'm thinking that if he did something that

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<v Speaker 2>he wasn't supposed to, like accepted a cash bribe or

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<v Speaker 2>something that at so much time had passed, that he

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be reluctant to admit it.

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<v Speaker 1>But you never know, you might be embarrassed and be

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<v Speaker 1>worried about the way that people would judge you, because

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<v Speaker 1>it's a completely different lens. If you're looking through and

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<v Speaker 1>you're going, okay, well, this guy was given a tip

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<v Speaker 1>and that's why it was allowed to slide otherwise. There's

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<v Speaker 1>all these different theories that you can come up with,

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<v Speaker 1>but we do know that she was partial to giving

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<v Speaker 1>large tips, because wasn't it like sixty kroner or something

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<v Speaker 1>that she left to the person who delivered that meal?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was the last meal she ordered, and because

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't find any additional money after her death, It's

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<v Speaker 2>been suspected that this was all the money that she

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<v Speaker 2>had left and just decided to give it all as

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<v Speaker 2>a generous tip, which could be foreshadowing that she was

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<v Speaker 2>planning suicide in the near future.

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<v Speaker 1>So we know that when Jennifer called the hotel earlier

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<v Speaker 1>that day, she mentioned that a mail companion named Lewis

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<v Speaker 1>Fairgate would be sharing the room with her, and there

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<v Speaker 1>seems to be discrepancy about whether a man was actually

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<v Speaker 1>present when Jennifer checked in. The Nonsense said that he

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<v Speaker 1>did not recall seeing a man, but The Mystery at

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<v Speaker 1>the Oslo Plaza documentary also contains an interview with Evie

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<v Speaker 1>tudem Yeertzen, who was a reception desk supervisor that night,

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<v Speaker 1>and she remembers seeing a dark haired man with Jennifer.

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<v Speaker 1>She specifically recalls this man handing her some money for

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<v Speaker 1>a currency exchange, but it should be noted that this

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<v Speaker 1>exchange may not have taken place at the time of

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<v Speaker 1>check in. Remember, key guard records showed that Jennifer entered

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<v Speaker 1>her room at ten forty four pm and twelve twenty

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<v Speaker 1>one am, so it's possible that she went down to

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<v Speaker 1>the lobby at a later time with this man in

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<v Speaker 1>order to make the curancy exchange, which is why a

246
00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:46.360
<v Speaker 1>Nonsen did not recall seeing him. Regardless if this man

247
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<v Speaker 1>actually existed and spent the night with Jennifer, I think

248
00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:51.360
<v Speaker 1>it's safe to say that his real name was not

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<v Speaker 1>actually Lewis Fairgate, since investigators found no record of anyone

250
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<v Speaker 1>matching that name. One scenario I've seen push forward, which

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<v Speaker 1>sounds fairly plausible is that Jennifer was a sex worker

252
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<v Speaker 1>and Lewis Faregate may have been one of her clients. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>if they were checking into an expensive hotel like the

254
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<v Speaker 1>Oslo Plaza, this would imply that Jennifer was a high

255
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<v Speaker 1>end sex worker who charged a lot of money, and

256
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<v Speaker 1>a fairly compelling theory is that if she regularly serviced

257
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<v Speaker 1>her clients there, she may have had an arrangement with

258
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<v Speaker 1>certain staff members to check in under false names without

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00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:29.240
<v Speaker 1>identification in order to protect everyone's privacy. This could also

260
00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.600
<v Speaker 1>explain why they returned to the lobby to make a

261
00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.360
<v Speaker 1>currency exchange, as perhaps Lewis didn't have the correct currency

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00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:38.960
<v Speaker 1>to pay her. I actually find this scenario more believable

263
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<v Speaker 1>than the idea of Jennifer being a spy, and it

264
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<v Speaker 1>could explain why certain staff members from the hotel have

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<v Speaker 1>always been reluctant to talk about it. Of course, the

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<v Speaker 1>biggest issue with a sex worker theory is that it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't account for why Jennifer would remain at the Oslo

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<v Speaker 1>Plaza for three more days before she wound up dead.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this is one of the theories that I think

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<v Speaker 3>would be much more reasonable than being a spy. I think,

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<v Speaker 3>like you said, if she is a sex worker, and

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<v Speaker 3>she's a high end escort, and she normally I regularly

273
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<v Speaker 3>will come here, there doesn't need to be any knowledge

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<v Speaker 3>of what the truth is. Right, I'm gonna pay you

275
00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.159
<v Speaker 3>under the table. You're gonna benefit, My clients are going

276
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<v Speaker 3>to benefit. I get this beautiful, fancy room. Who knows

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<v Speaker 3>what her actual lifestyle was like, if she had a

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00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:27.879
<v Speaker 3>nice place to go home to. So I could easily

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00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:30.159
<v Speaker 3>see this being the scenario. And when you look at

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<v Speaker 3>the kind of secrecy she would be operating with, not

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00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:36.519
<v Speaker 3>everyone at the hotel would know who she was, but

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00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:40.759
<v Speaker 3>there could be certain people, like you said, they go, oh, okay, quote,

283
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:44.399
<v Speaker 3>Jennifer is here, give her that room, we're not booked,

284
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<v Speaker 3>and let her stay until we have people that need

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00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.360
<v Speaker 3>it for an official rental of the room.

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<v Speaker 1>If that's the case, do you guys think that she

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00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.120
<v Speaker 1>intended to go there and to meet a client and

288
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<v Speaker 1>then thought about it for a while It took a

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00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:02.759
<v Speaker 1>few days to think about if she wanted to complete

290
00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:06.240
<v Speaker 1>suicide there, Like if this plan was already there, maybe

291
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:08.639
<v Speaker 1>see this one last client, have that money in her

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<v Speaker 1>pocket in case she decided against it. What do you

293
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:12.000
<v Speaker 1>guys think.

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<v Speaker 2>That would make sense? Because maybe she just didn't like

295
00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:18.240
<v Speaker 2>her lifestyle, like she hated being a sex worker, so

296
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:20.399
<v Speaker 2>she decided I'm going to end it all. But maybe

297
00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to spend the last few days of my

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<v Speaker 2>life in this luxury hotel because I was able to

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00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.039
<v Speaker 2>get in without paying, and I just want to have

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00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.200
<v Speaker 2>some fun for a while and have some time to myself.

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<v Speaker 2>And then once it gets to the point where they

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00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:34.919
<v Speaker 2>figure out that I'm not paying them and that I'm

303
00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:37.639
<v Speaker 2>going to get kicked out, that's when I'll end things.

304
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.279
<v Speaker 3>Also, though, you could think about what circumstances could have

305
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.720
<v Speaker 3>happened in that hotel room that could take her from

306
00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.960
<v Speaker 3>quote being there to service a client to wanting to

307
00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:50.919
<v Speaker 3>complete suicide. What if that client had abused her in

308
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:54.399
<v Speaker 3>some way. What if she had been filmed against her consent,

309
00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.240
<v Speaker 3>What if they had alluded they were going to contact

310
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:01.399
<v Speaker 3>someone close to her. You know, there's all kinds of

311
00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:02.919
<v Speaker 3>things that could make you go from like, oh, this

312
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:07.120
<v Speaker 3>is just another night with my clients, to oh my gosh,

313
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:08.360
<v Speaker 3>like my life is ruined.

314
00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:10.360
<v Speaker 4>This can't get out, this can't happen.

315
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:15.240
<v Speaker 3>So I think this angle is a very sharp, intelligent

316
00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.360
<v Speaker 3>one to go down when you look at easily people

317
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.279
<v Speaker 3>could look the other way if this was a scenario,

318
00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:22.879
<v Speaker 3>and easily something could have gone wrong because it's all

319
00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:26.240
<v Speaker 3>in secrecy. That's the problem with sex work, right. People

320
00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.879
<v Speaker 3>are able to easily abuse those people because no one's

321
00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.919
<v Speaker 3>paying attention, or it's all done behind closed doors. And

322
00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:36.879
<v Speaker 3>so there's many things that could have happened that Jennifer said,

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00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:38.559
<v Speaker 3>I can't overcome what just happened to me.

324
00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:42.720
<v Speaker 1>And that could explain why Jennifer had a gun. Say

325
00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.720
<v Speaker 1>she was an independent sex worker, and maybe she'd had

326
00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:49.960
<v Speaker 1>difficult relations with clients in the past where she felt threatened,

327
00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:53.039
<v Speaker 1>so she decided to bring that handgun, and like you said,

328
00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:56.120
<v Speaker 1>maybe something happened and she decided to use that gun

329
00:16:56.159 --> 00:16:57.240
<v Speaker 1>on herself.

330
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<v Speaker 3>And think about her like fancy clothes, Like what if

331
00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.279
<v Speaker 3>they weren't quote fancy and she removed the labels because

332
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:05.480
<v Speaker 3>they're cheap brands. And then she has a couple really

333
00:17:05.559 --> 00:17:08.240
<v Speaker 3>nice items because she's meeting really wealthy men or women

334
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:09.759
<v Speaker 3>who were her clients.

335
00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:11.599
<v Speaker 4>You know, that could explain a lot too.

336
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:16.000
<v Speaker 1>But being at the Plaza hotel, that sounds like a

337
00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:20.359
<v Speaker 1>pretty expensive place to be conducting your business. And Robin,

338
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:24.119
<v Speaker 1>do we know if there was any evidence of or

339
00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:27.000
<v Speaker 1>substance use disorder or and alcohol use disorder.

340
00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:30.640
<v Speaker 2>Uh, They've never really specified that, And I've always thought

341
00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.559
<v Speaker 2>that because I do know that they checked her system

342
00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.839
<v Speaker 2>and for traces of alcohol and drugs, and they didn't

343
00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.880
<v Speaker 2>really find anything on the toxicology screening, so I don't

344
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:42.599
<v Speaker 2>think she was using either of them when she checked in.

345
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:44.920
<v Speaker 2>But then again, they just kind of wrote her off

346
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.359
<v Speaker 2>as a suicide, so I don't know how thoroughly they

347
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:49.279
<v Speaker 2>checked in if there's something they could have missed.

348
00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:53.759
<v Speaker 1>I wonder what percentage of people have alcohol or drugs

349
00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.759
<v Speaker 1>in their system when they choose to complete suicide, especially

350
00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.319
<v Speaker 1>with a firearm. I'd be interested to hear those statistics.

351
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.920
<v Speaker 2>I'd be curious, like if she took some drugs like

352
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.559
<v Speaker 2>three days beforehand and then never used it while she

353
00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.279
<v Speaker 2>was at the plaza, would it still be in her

354
00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:09.519
<v Speaker 2>system after her death after all that time.

355
00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.519
<v Speaker 1>It depends on the drug, but I think it would be.

356
00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.519
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I went to rehab many years ago and

357
00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:19.559
<v Speaker 1>they make you continually pee, so just to make sure

358
00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:21.599
<v Speaker 1>that you don't have anything in your system. So I

359
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:23.319
<v Speaker 1>would think that they would be able to take urine

360
00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:25.720
<v Speaker 1>from her bladder and to check her blood and there

361
00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:28.000
<v Speaker 1>would probably just be low levels. I know, things like

362
00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:30.920
<v Speaker 1>cocaine clear out pretty quickly. If it's a opiate, it

363
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.319
<v Speaker 1>takes longer. I think if it's weed it takes longer.

364
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:35.319
<v Speaker 1>But I think they would still be able to find

365
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:36.079
<v Speaker 1>some trace.

366
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<v Speaker 2>And I know Ashley brought up the possibility of her

367
00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:41.480
<v Speaker 2>being abused while she was there, but they didn't find

368
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.400
<v Speaker 2>any sign of abuse either, or any signs that she

369
00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:48.359
<v Speaker 2>had been physically assaulted. Another possibility is that Jennifer and

370
00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.359
<v Speaker 2>Lewis were lovers who may have been conducting a secret affair,

371
00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:54.359
<v Speaker 2>which necessitated the use of false names to check into

372
00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:58.119
<v Speaker 2>the hotel. It's been established that Jennifer was most likely

373
00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:02.279
<v Speaker 2>not from Norway and possibly from Germany, so perhaps Oslo

374
00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:04.519
<v Speaker 2>was one of those places where she and Lewis would

375
00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:08.160
<v Speaker 2>meet up for a rendezvous. But for whatever reason, something

376
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:11.000
<v Speaker 2>happened during the stay at the Oslo Plaza which made

377
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.160
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer believe the relationship wasn't going to work out, so

378
00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:18.000
<v Speaker 2>she decided to take her own life. Theoretically, if Lewis

379
00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:20.160
<v Speaker 2>was a married man with a separate life who had

380
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.279
<v Speaker 2>been carrying on this secret romance with Jennifer, that would

381
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.240
<v Speaker 2>explain why he's never come forward even after her story

382
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:31.079
<v Speaker 2>garnered international publicity. It's very interesting how the contact information

383
00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:34.279
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer filled out on a registration form was from Belgium,

384
00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:38.240
<v Speaker 2>and she specifically mentioned an obscure remote village called Verlin.

385
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:41.839
<v Speaker 2>Since no one from verlinn recognized Jennifer's composite sketch and

386
00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.000
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing to tire to the village, it seems unlikely

387
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.720
<v Speaker 2>that Jennifer ever lived there, but some of the information

388
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.400
<v Speaker 2>she filled out on the forum suggests that she did

389
00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:53.119
<v Speaker 2>have some sort of knowledge of the area. So if

390
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.319
<v Speaker 2>Lewis Faregate actually existed, what if he was the one

391
00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:59.720
<v Speaker 2>who hailed from Belgium and not Jennifer after all? Even

392
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:02.640
<v Speaker 2>though Jennifer's sketch was circulated through Verlin. It does not

393
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.920
<v Speaker 2>sound like a composite was ever created for Lewis, so

394
00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:08.359
<v Speaker 2>if he lived in the area, none of the residents

395
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.240
<v Speaker 2>would put two and two together. Of course, this theory

396
00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:13.839
<v Speaker 2>is all just speculation on my part, but I am

397
00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:17.319
<v Speaker 2>intrigued by the detail of Jennifer attempting to make outgoing

398
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:20.480
<v Speaker 2>phone calls from a room to two numbers in Belgium

399
00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:23.880
<v Speaker 2>that did not actually exist, even though the area codes

400
00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:28.319
<v Speaker 2>belonged to a municipality just outside of Verlaine. If Lewis

401
00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.720
<v Speaker 2>hailed from this municipality, then perhaps Jennifer was trying to

402
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:34.240
<v Speaker 2>call him, but she did not actually know his correct

403
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:35.519
<v Speaker 2>number and couldn't get a.

404
00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:36.000
<v Speaker 4>Hold of him.

405
00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.359
<v Speaker 2>This would explain why she dialed two non existent numbers

406
00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:42.599
<v Speaker 2>that only had a one digit difference between them, as

407
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.720
<v Speaker 2>if she had an idea of what the number was

408
00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:48.119
<v Speaker 2>but didn't actually know it for certain. There's been so

409
00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.359
<v Speaker 2>much theorizing that this mysterious Lewis was somehow tied to

410
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:55.240
<v Speaker 2>espionage or criminal activity and may have been Jennifer's handler

411
00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.039
<v Speaker 2>or perhaps even her killer. But what if they were

412
00:20:58.079 --> 00:20:59.960
<v Speaker 2>just a couple trying to keep a secret of fame

413
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:00.839
<v Speaker 2>under wraps.

414
00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.400
<v Speaker 3>That could also explain her decision to take her own life.

415
00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:07.240
<v Speaker 3>He could have come there to give her money and

416
00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.440
<v Speaker 3>say like, look, we can't keep doing this anymore, like

417
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:11.680
<v Speaker 3>good luck to you, but we just can't do this anymore,

418
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:14.720
<v Speaker 3>or hey, my wife found out, or your husband's gonna

419
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.000
<v Speaker 3>find out. You know, my wife's gonna call him whatever,

420
00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:20.039
<v Speaker 3>and that could have led her to complete suicide too.

421
00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.519
<v Speaker 3>Only thing there is if anyone else knew about the situation,

422
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:26.720
<v Speaker 3>I feel like her identity wouldn't have been as easy

423
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:27.559
<v Speaker 3>to keep a secret.

424
00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:28.920
<v Speaker 4>Like after her death.

425
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:30.319
<v Speaker 3>I feel like they would have been able to say,

426
00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:32.920
<v Speaker 3>oh my god, that's my wife, you know, or oh

427
00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:35.480
<v Speaker 3>my gosh, I was looking for my girlfriend, or you know,

428
00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.880
<v Speaker 3>my husband's lover isn't around anymore. I feel like there

429
00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:42.160
<v Speaker 3>would have been a little bit easier way to identify them.

430
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:43.559
<v Speaker 3>But it's definitely a possibility.

431
00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.359
<v Speaker 1>But if he was from Belgium, maybe his wife never

432
00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.359
<v Speaker 1>heard about it, and when he heard about it, he's like, oh, shoot,

433
00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.480
<v Speaker 1>I better not say anything here because I'll just keep

434
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:55.880
<v Speaker 1>my mouth shut and I don't want to be tied

435
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:57.240
<v Speaker 1>anywhere near this.

436
00:21:58.160 --> 00:21:59.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's what I'm thinking you would depend on how

437
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:02.319
<v Speaker 2>many people knew about the affair, because if neither of

438
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:04.519
<v Speaker 2>them was from Oslo and they just met up there

439
00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.160
<v Speaker 2>for this secret romance, and Lewis was the only other

440
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.039
<v Speaker 2>person who knew about it, I could definitely see him

441
00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:11.039
<v Speaker 2>staying quiet.

442
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:12.920
<v Speaker 3>Do you think him any of the affair could be

443
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:14.680
<v Speaker 3>a reason she'd complete suicide?

444
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.319
<v Speaker 2>I do, yeah, Like if he was a married man

445
00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:19.119
<v Speaker 2>and had a family and says I don't want to

446
00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:21.359
<v Speaker 2>do this anymore. Like maybe she was hoping that he

447
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:24.079
<v Speaker 2>would leave his wife or his family for her, and

448
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:26.440
<v Speaker 2>when he said no, that was the breaking point.

449
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.759
<v Speaker 1>For Looking at the timeline, we know that Jennifer used

450
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.000
<v Speaker 1>her key card to enter her room at eight thirty

451
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:35.440
<v Speaker 1>four am on the morning of June first, meaning that

452
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:37.440
<v Speaker 1>she may have woken up and stepped out to have

453
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.880
<v Speaker 1>breakfast or something before she returned. She did not use

454
00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:43.599
<v Speaker 1>the key card again until eight fifty am on the

455
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:46.799
<v Speaker 1>morning of June second. But the weird part is the

456
00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:49.160
<v Speaker 1>two maids who cleaned the room on the afternoon of

457
00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:52.319
<v Speaker 1>the first confirmed that it was empty and Jennifer was gone.

458
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.680
<v Speaker 1>And this is definitely one of the most baffling elements

459
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.599
<v Speaker 1>of this entire story because the maids went in there

460
00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:02.039
<v Speaker 1>at twelve forty four pm and Jennifer was not seen

461
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.279
<v Speaker 1>again until she showed up at the front desk on

462
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:06.799
<v Speaker 1>the morning of the second in order to extend or

463
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.920
<v Speaker 1>stay at the hotel by two nights. So this means

464
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.359
<v Speaker 1>that Jennifer was gone from the hotel for nearly twenty

465
00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:16.119
<v Speaker 1>four hours and no one knows where she spent the night. Furthermore,

466
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:19.279
<v Speaker 1>the hotel security footage was never checked. We have no

467
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:21.640
<v Speaker 1>idea if Jennifer was alone or if she might have

468
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.480
<v Speaker 1>been with Lewis Faregate when she left on the morning

469
00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.920
<v Speaker 1>of the first. When Jennifer returned and extended her stay,

470
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.599
<v Speaker 1>it sounds like she was alone. So could something have

471
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.279
<v Speaker 1>happened with her and Lewis during those twenty four hours

472
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:35.359
<v Speaker 1>that played a role in her decision to take her

473
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:38.640
<v Speaker 1>own life, or if you believe the foul place took place,

474
00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:41.160
<v Speaker 1>something compelled Lewis or someone else to show up at

475
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.000
<v Speaker 1>the hotel at a later time to kill her.

476
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:45.920
<v Speaker 3>That's the part that throws me off completely, is that

477
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:48.359
<v Speaker 3>you have this system in place that can read key

478
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:51.680
<v Speaker 3>cards and can show you exactly when someone comes and

479
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.480
<v Speaker 3>goes from the room, and the key card reads differently

480
00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:57.400
<v Speaker 3>when it's the cleaning service it comes and goes, or

481
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:00.359
<v Speaker 3>management service that comes and goes, or the guest comes

482
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:04.079
<v Speaker 3>and goes. And it looks like she never leaves the

483
00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:10.680
<v Speaker 3>room over that course of time. Yet the cleaning ladies say, no,

484
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:13.079
<v Speaker 3>we were in that room at this time. I'm assuming

485
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:15.160
<v Speaker 3>their key cards show that they were in and out

486
00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:19.000
<v Speaker 3>of the room and she wasn't there. If they're truly

487
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:21.759
<v Speaker 3>cleaning this high end hotel, they should be cleaning everywhere.

488
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:23.799
<v Speaker 3>They should be looking in the closet, they should be

489
00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:26.039
<v Speaker 3>looking in the bathroom, they should be doing all of that.

490
00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:28.759
<v Speaker 3>So it's not like she's hiding in the room. How

491
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:32.359
<v Speaker 3>the heck could she not be in that location but

492
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:35.799
<v Speaker 3>also not have the doors read that she left.

493
00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:38.279
<v Speaker 2>I think the doors didn't read when she left. It's

494
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:40.559
<v Speaker 2>only the key card showed when she entered her room.

495
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.599
<v Speaker 2>But obviously we don't know when she left. But since

496
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:46.240
<v Speaker 2>we have a twenty four hour gap between when she

497
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:48.680
<v Speaker 2>went in and the maid said she was not there

498
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:51.640
<v Speaker 2>at twelve forty four pm, that seems to indicate that

499
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:54.279
<v Speaker 2>she went somewhere and spent the night at another location

500
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:57.559
<v Speaker 2>before she returned, but we just have no idea where

501
00:24:57.559 --> 00:25:00.400
<v Speaker 2>this could be. So the last entry and the key

502
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.079
<v Speaker 2>card took place at eleven three am on the morning

503
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:05.440
<v Speaker 2>of the second, which means that Jennifer may have spent

504
00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:08.799
<v Speaker 2>as much as nineteen consecutive hours inside the room alone

505
00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:12.680
<v Speaker 2>without leaving before she died. However, just because the key

506
00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.960
<v Speaker 2>card wasn't used does not necessarily mean that someone else

507
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.519
<v Speaker 2>didn't enter the room, as an outside party could have

508
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.079
<v Speaker 2>shown up there by knocking on the door and Jennifer

509
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:24.599
<v Speaker 2>let them inside. But the only confirmed sighting of Jennifer

510
00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:27.839
<v Speaker 2>during this nineteen hour window was the employee who delivered

511
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.559
<v Speaker 2>food to a room at eight twenty three pm and

512
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.519
<v Speaker 2>confirmed she was alone. There's also some confusion about other

513
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.319
<v Speaker 2>items being seen inside the room which were not present

514
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:40.640
<v Speaker 2>when Jennifer's body was found. We have they account from

515
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.160
<v Speaker 2>the housekeeper who said she saw a pair of colorful

516
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:45.799
<v Speaker 2>high heeled shoes in the closet when she cleaned the

517
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:48.480
<v Speaker 2>empty room on the first, But since we know Jennifer

518
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.359
<v Speaker 2>entered the room on at least two separate occasions on

519
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:53.880
<v Speaker 2>the morning of the second, I suppose she could have

520
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:57.039
<v Speaker 2>gone out and disposed of the shoes somewhere, But it's

521
00:25:57.039 --> 00:25:59.759
<v Speaker 2>also possible that the maid was simply mistaken, as she

522
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:02.720
<v Speaker 2>led cleaned several rooms that week, and I'm not sure

523
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.319
<v Speaker 2>how she could have such a vivid and accurate memory

524
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.480
<v Speaker 2>of a pair of shoes she saw in some guest closet. However,

525
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:11.960
<v Speaker 2>the account from the employee who delivered the food is

526
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.359
<v Speaker 2>a bit more unusual, since she reported that Jennifer was

527
00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.200
<v Speaker 2>wearing a suit which made her resemble a flight attendant,

528
00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:21.599
<v Speaker 2>and she also had a rolling suitcase. Neither of these

529
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.799
<v Speaker 2>items were found, and since there was no record of

530
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:26.720
<v Speaker 2>the key card being used after that point, how could

531
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:29.880
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer have disposed of them? Did this mean that someone

532
00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:32.519
<v Speaker 2>else entered the room and remove the items, or could

533
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:36.279
<v Speaker 2>the employee simply be mistaken. It's also worth noting that

534
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:39.279
<v Speaker 2>two key cards were found in the room following Jennifer's death,

535
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:42.240
<v Speaker 2>which implied that she checked in with an additional guest.

536
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Investigators never specified if there was any additional activity on

537
00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:49.920
<v Speaker 2>the second key card, but I'm guessing not, because otherwise

538
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:53.319
<v Speaker 2>it likely would have been reported. When Jennifer received her food.

539
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.279
<v Speaker 2>She also gave the employee a tip of fifty kroner,

540
00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:58.839
<v Speaker 2>which is considered to be a lot higher than your

541
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.440
<v Speaker 2>average room service time. Since no other money was found

542
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:05.559
<v Speaker 2>following your death, it's possible that Jennifer just wanted to

543
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:07.559
<v Speaker 2>give away all the money she had left in her

544
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:10.480
<v Speaker 2>possession because she knew she would no longer need it.

545
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:12.480
<v Speaker 3>When you look at the two key cards that have

546
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:15.359
<v Speaker 3>been given to her when she checked in, I don't

547
00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.400
<v Speaker 3>know that that necessarily signifies she had somebody else with her.

548
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:22.160
<v Speaker 3>My very first job out of college was working for

549
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.759
<v Speaker 3>a like a hall at Hampton in And when I

550
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:30.279
<v Speaker 3>was working there, sometimes we would just automatically code two keys,

551
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:32.200
<v Speaker 3>pop them in the envelope, and hand them over to

552
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.559
<v Speaker 3>the guest. And sometimes I was just being lazy, like

553
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:39.279
<v Speaker 3>it was just you know, automatic, everybody knew code two keys,

554
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:41.960
<v Speaker 3>give it to them, walk away. I also have people

555
00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:43.440
<v Speaker 3>that will say do you want one or two keys,

556
00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:45.920
<v Speaker 3>even if it's just me checking into a hotel, So

557
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:48.839
<v Speaker 3>meaning like, hey, maybe I have someonecoming leader that I

558
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.079
<v Speaker 3>want to give it to, or I don't know, sometimes

559
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:52.720
<v Speaker 3>I want to leave one on the dresser and one

560
00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:55.799
<v Speaker 3>in my jean pocket or whatever. But I don't know

561
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.799
<v Speaker 3>that it definitely says, hey, there was somebody else I

562
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:00.880
<v Speaker 3>think it could have also just been tall policy to

563
00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:04.119
<v Speaker 3>put two in the key card holder and hand it

564
00:28:04.119 --> 00:28:05.160
<v Speaker 3>over to the customer.

565
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think that's most likely because it is standard

566
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.519
<v Speaker 2>practice these days for hotels to give two key cards

567
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:14.680
<v Speaker 2>to one guest. And like I said, there was any

568
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:17.359
<v Speaker 2>activity on that second key card, I think police probably

569
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:18.480
<v Speaker 2>would have told us about it.

570
00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:22.319
<v Speaker 1>So one detail which really throws me off is the

571
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:26.359
<v Speaker 1>presence of undigested food in Jennifer's stomach, which implies that

572
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.519
<v Speaker 1>she ate something a short time before she died. The

573
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:32.200
<v Speaker 1>meal she received was only half eaten and still in

574
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:34.680
<v Speaker 1>the room when her body was found, even though it

575
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.119
<v Speaker 1>was delivered nearly twenty four hours beforehand. So could this

576
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.599
<v Speaker 1>mean that Jennifer was actually killed on the evening of

577
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:43.960
<v Speaker 1>June second, shortly after she ate, or did she save

578
00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:46.319
<v Speaker 1>the food for a while and consume some cold brought

579
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.319
<v Speaker 1>worst and potato salad sometime on the evening of June third. Well,

580
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.519
<v Speaker 1>if it's the first scenario, then this would definitely indicate

581
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:56.680
<v Speaker 1>that Jennifer was murdered, since someone else had to fire

582
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.400
<v Speaker 1>the gunshot after espin Nas knocked on the door, but

583
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.920
<v Speaker 1>while waiting twenty four hours to eat cold food is

584
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 1>a bit odd. The second scenario makes a lot more sense. Remember,

585
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:10.759
<v Speaker 1>since Jennifer never provided any payment, the front desk sent

586
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:13.960
<v Speaker 1>a total of three messages to the TV screen asking

587
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.079
<v Speaker 1>her to come downstairs and see the cashier. The last

588
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:20.799
<v Speaker 1>message was sent only fourteen minutes before Noss went upstairs

589
00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:24.200
<v Speaker 1>and was a lot more urgent in tone. But since

590
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:27.599
<v Speaker 1>someone responded to the message by pressing okay, this means

591
00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:30.559
<v Speaker 1>that Jennifer or an unknown party was definitely in the

592
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:33.079
<v Speaker 1>room at the time. However, when you see how these

593
00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.200
<v Speaker 1>events unfolded, suicide seems a lot more plausible than homicide.

594
00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:40.880
<v Speaker 1>A gunshot was heard immediately after Nos knocked on the door,

595
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:43.480
<v Speaker 1>and while we technically don't know if this was a

596
00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:46.440
<v Speaker 1>shot which killed Jennifer or the so called test shot

597
00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.119
<v Speaker 1>that was fired into the pillow, it makes no sense

598
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.480
<v Speaker 1>for an outside party to do this, as there's no

599
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:53.920
<v Speaker 1>way anyone could have known who was in the hallway.

600
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.119
<v Speaker 1>If this was a murderer, then the killer got extremely

601
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:00.480
<v Speaker 1>lucky that Nos was a young, part time employee who

602
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:02.839
<v Speaker 1>was not about to put his life at risk and

603
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:05.759
<v Speaker 1>took fifteen minutes to head downstairs and ring the rest

604
00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:08.599
<v Speaker 1>of the security staff. To the room, giving the killer

605
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:11.519
<v Speaker 1>ample time to escape. For all the shooter knew, there

606
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:14.880
<v Speaker 1>could have been an entire security team outside who would

607
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.480
<v Speaker 1>have been able to use a special security key card

608
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:20.319
<v Speaker 1>to open the door and burst inside. I think that

609
00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:22.799
<v Speaker 1>a killer would have been more inclined to stay silent

610
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:25.440
<v Speaker 1>and hope that the person at the door just went away,

611
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:28.759
<v Speaker 1>rather than firing off a gun. Would If you believe

612
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.119
<v Speaker 1>Jennifer's death was a suicide, then it makes perfect sense

613
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:34.960
<v Speaker 1>that she would elect to shoot herself under those circumstances.

614
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:37.640
<v Speaker 1>If her plan was to spend the last few days

615
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:39.960
<v Speaker 1>of her life in a fancy hotel before taking her

616
00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:43.000
<v Speaker 1>own life, she probably knew that her days were numbered

617
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:46.279
<v Speaker 1>when the message demanding that she see the cashier appeared

618
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:49.039
<v Speaker 1>on the TV screen, So when she heard the knock

619
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:51.079
<v Speaker 1>of the door, she knew her time was up and

620
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:52.640
<v Speaker 1>decided to end her own life.

621
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:55.039
<v Speaker 3>I think you're spot on there when you think about

622
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:57.319
<v Speaker 3>this idea that it's a killer sitting in the room

623
00:30:57.319 --> 00:30:58.799
<v Speaker 3>and he hears a knock and he goes, this is

624
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:03.240
<v Speaker 3>it any fine that's drawing attention to the room, And

625
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:05.880
<v Speaker 3>like you said, it requires an immediate response. And so

626
00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:07.559
<v Speaker 3>how am I going to get out of this room

627
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:11.400
<v Speaker 3>after I just shot someone, and there's someone standing outside

628
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:12.440
<v Speaker 3>the door and.

629
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:13.880
<v Speaker 4>Clearly would have heard it.

630
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:16.680
<v Speaker 3>The only bizarre thing to me when you're looking at

631
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:19.839
<v Speaker 3>her suicide is it's right in the gunshot wound is

632
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:22.440
<v Speaker 3>right in the middle of her forehead, which seems like

633
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:27.720
<v Speaker 3>the most uncomfortable, bizarre location to shoot yourself. But when you,

634
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:29.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean, when you think about it, it's just nothing

635
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.160
<v Speaker 3>else makes sense. They said that there would have been

636
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:34.640
<v Speaker 3>no way for someone to escape that room other than

637
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:37.160
<v Speaker 3>the door to the room, And so if he's sitting

638
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:40.039
<v Speaker 3>there waiting for fifteen minutes, the killer just I don't

639
00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.359
<v Speaker 3>see them shooting as soon as the knock happens at

640
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:44.480
<v Speaker 3>the door, And I don't see them just waiting around

641
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.880
<v Speaker 3>and perfectly timing their escape when this kid is just

642
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:51.400
<v Speaker 3>walking downstairs. How would they know when he left the hallway?

643
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because the conspiracy theories that are pushed forward is that, well,

644
00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:58.519
<v Speaker 2>maybe her killer was a spy or a highly trained assassin,

645
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:01.079
<v Speaker 2>and their skill that's sensing when people are outside, and

646
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:03.599
<v Speaker 2>they could have gone out the door and locked it

647
00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:05.759
<v Speaker 2>behind them without anyone knowing they were in the room.

648
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:07.680
<v Speaker 2>But this is the stuff that you find in movies,

649
00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:10.039
<v Speaker 2>and it just seems pretty far fetched that this could

650
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.720
<v Speaker 2>have been the mode of behind Jennifer's murder.

651
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.200
<v Speaker 1>Did you need at this plaza in nineteen ninety five

652
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:19.960
<v Speaker 1>a key card on the elevator to access certain floors?

653
00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:23.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't have that information. It's never really specified that

654
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:25.680
<v Speaker 2>in any of the sources, but I know that from

655
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.960
<v Speaker 2>my experience at hotels, I don't remember hotels having those

656
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.440
<v Speaker 2>kind of key cards and elevators during the nineteen nineties.

657
00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Of course, if you watch the Unsolved Mysteries episode, it

658
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.920
<v Speaker 2>contains interviews with a number of experts who questioned the

659
00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:40.680
<v Speaker 2>suicide ruling and believe it would have been possible for

660
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:43.160
<v Speaker 2>someone else to shoot Jennifer and escape the room while

661
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.920
<v Speaker 2>locking the door behind them. I will admit that there

662
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:48.720
<v Speaker 2>are some unusual details, such as the lack of blood

663
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:52.240
<v Speaker 2>spatter and gunshot residue on Jennifer's hands. But here's a

664
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:56.880
<v Speaker 2>quote from Lars Christian Wegner's Verdon's Gong article by Bjorn David,

665
00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:01.240
<v Speaker 2>a forensic technician who investigated the scene. Quote, we took

666
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:03.279
<v Speaker 2>samples from the skin near the weapon to look for

667
00:33:03.319 --> 00:33:06.240
<v Speaker 2>gunshower residue, but it's not a given that you find it.

668
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:08.920
<v Speaker 2>With the way the victim held the weapon. In this case,

669
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:11.519
<v Speaker 2>most of the residue would have been on the other side,

670
00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:14.519
<v Speaker 2>where the hand would be with a normal grip. Sometimes

671
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:17.200
<v Speaker 2>we find residue, sometimes we don't. You can't see the

672
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:20.200
<v Speaker 2>particles with the naked eye. The test kit we used

673
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:22.680
<v Speaker 2>is a tiny vial with an adhesive on the end,

674
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:26.000
<v Speaker 2>which you pushed down on the victim's hand. Maybe we've

675
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:28.440
<v Speaker 2>picked the wrong spot, but nothing was found in the

676
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:33.279
<v Speaker 2>electron microscope examination end quote. Even though Jennifer's fingerprints were

677
00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:35.759
<v Speaker 2>not found on the gun, there was also no guarantee

678
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.680
<v Speaker 2>that you'll always be able to get prints off a firearm,

679
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:41.319
<v Speaker 2>as the surfaces and the grip can make it difficult.

680
00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:43.759
<v Speaker 2>And while a lot has been made of the positioning

681
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:47.279
<v Speaker 2>of the gun in Jennifer's hand, UNSAW Mysteries neglected to

682
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.240
<v Speaker 2>mention that the trigger was depressed, as a click was

683
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.319
<v Speaker 2>heard when the weapon was released. So unless Jennifer was

684
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:55.920
<v Speaker 2>murdered by the most skill assassin ever, I have a

685
00:33:55.960 --> 00:33:58.920
<v Speaker 2>hard time imagining this scene could have been staged. Well,

686
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.599
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there are people who work in government intelligence

687
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:04.799
<v Speaker 2>that possess the necessary skills to stage a suicide scene

688
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:07.960
<v Speaker 2>and escape a room while double locking the door behind them.

689
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:10.960
<v Speaker 2>That sort of thing sounds time consuming, and I have

690
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:13.199
<v Speaker 2>to harken back to the fact that there's no way

691
00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:16.079
<v Speaker 2>an outside party could have predicted it would take fifteen

692
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:18.519
<v Speaker 2>minutes for the security chief to show up at the

693
00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:22.239
<v Speaker 2>room after Espinos knocked on the door. Some doubt or

694
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.239
<v Speaker 2>unusual that when Jennifer was shot, she was dressed up

695
00:34:25.239 --> 00:34:27.320
<v Speaker 2>as if she was ready to go out and appeared

696
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:30.760
<v Speaker 2>to have recently showered. After all, she was found wearing

697
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.800
<v Speaker 2>a pair of black high heeled pumps, which many women

698
00:34:33.800 --> 00:34:37.559
<v Speaker 2>are not inclined to wear when they're lounging around indoors. However,

699
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure I would put much stock into this,

700
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:43.000
<v Speaker 2>since suicidal individuals sometimes want to look their best when

701
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:43.800
<v Speaker 2>they end their lives.

702
00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:47.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, absolutely that's the case. But when you also look

703
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:49.480
<v Speaker 3>at this, it's kind of like an oxy moron. You're

704
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:51.480
<v Speaker 3>going to dress really nice, but you're going to then

705
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.519
<v Speaker 3>complete suicide in the most one of the most heinous

706
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:57.679
<v Speaker 3>ways you could by doing a self inflicted gunshot wound

707
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:00.039
<v Speaker 3>to your head. A lot of times, that's why you

708
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:03.199
<v Speaker 3>see women not choose that method, because, like you said,

709
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.079
<v Speaker 3>they want to be presentable, they want to be clean,

710
00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:08.159
<v Speaker 3>they want to be able to be buried with an

711
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:11.960
<v Speaker 3>open casket, those kinds of things, and so that's why

712
00:35:12.039 --> 00:35:16.400
<v Speaker 3>medicine or you know, other types of options are chosen.

713
00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:19.000
<v Speaker 3>So it is kind of bizarre if you weren't in

714
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:22.760
<v Speaker 3>your healthy mental state at the time, I could see

715
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:25.360
<v Speaker 3>the idea of I'm gonna look nice and then complete

716
00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:28.320
<v Speaker 3>suicide with this, you know, with this gun. But from

717
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:31.679
<v Speaker 3>a logical standpoint, it's kind of this juxtaposition of I'm

718
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:34.920
<v Speaker 3>gonna be really nice and presentable, but then also make

719
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.159
<v Speaker 3>it where visually I'm not presentable to whoever finds me.

720
00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:41.840
<v Speaker 1>And I find the black silky pajama shorts a strange

721
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:45.840
<v Speaker 1>choice if that was the case, because you would want

722
00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:48.039
<v Speaker 1>to look presentable, you would want to look nice, but

723
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:51.599
<v Speaker 1>would you want to look sexy. I wouldn't think that

724
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:54.599
<v Speaker 1>most women who were in that position would choose to

725
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.519
<v Speaker 1>wear something that could be described as like what like undergarments,

726
00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:00.320
<v Speaker 1>almost what you would wear at night to go to

727
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:06.039
<v Speaker 1>bed with your partner, not something there's something vulnerable about that.

728
00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:07.480
<v Speaker 4>That's a really good point.

729
00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:11.000
<v Speaker 1>We have a couple of other odd details such as

730
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:14.400
<v Speaker 1>the presence of a newspaper bag from room twenty eight sixteen,

731
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.519
<v Speaker 1>But even though all records of who actually stayed in

732
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.280
<v Speaker 1>the room that night are no longer available, I'm not

733
00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:23.400
<v Speaker 1>sure if it's all that significant, as Jennifer could have

734
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:26.840
<v Speaker 1>just stolen it while walking down the hallway. We also

735
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:30.320
<v Speaker 1>have the Belgian businessman known only as mister F, who

736
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:32.920
<v Speaker 1>stayed in room twenty eight oh four across the hall

737
00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:36.280
<v Speaker 1>and made this weird remark about being asked about Jennifer's

738
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:39.880
<v Speaker 1>death when he checked out on Saturday morning, even though

739
00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.280
<v Speaker 1>she was not actually found dead until Sunday evening. But

740
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:47.039
<v Speaker 1>mister F was not interviewed until two decades after the fact,

741
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:50.039
<v Speaker 1>so for all we know, he might just be misremembering

742
00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:53.920
<v Speaker 1>things and it has no relevance to the case. Of course,

743
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.039
<v Speaker 1>if the police had not been so quick to write

744
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:59.639
<v Speaker 1>off Jennifer's death as a suicide and actually questioned witnesses

745
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:02.760
<v Speaker 1>like Missus back in nineteen ninety five, we might have

746
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:05.840
<v Speaker 1>a better idea of what happened here, but it is

747
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:08.920
<v Speaker 1>what it is. All this debate about escaping from locked

748
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.800
<v Speaker 1>rooms and stage suicides might be irrelevant if Jennifer was

749
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:16.000
<v Speaker 1>not even involved in espionage to begin with, and just

750
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 1>a regular civilian. The most compelling evidence to support the

751
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:22.880
<v Speaker 1>spy theory is the fact that she was carrying a

752
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:26.679
<v Speaker 1>Browning semi automatic nine millimeter pistol which appeared to be

753
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:29.599
<v Speaker 1>compiled of bits and pieces of other guns, and the

754
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:33.239
<v Speaker 1>serial numbers were burnt off. Jennifer was also carrying an

755
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:37.960
<v Speaker 1>attashchet case containing twenty five additional bullets, which obviously would

756
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.760
<v Speaker 1>not be necessary if she was planning a suicide. It

757
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:43.400
<v Speaker 1>sounds like burning a gun serial numbers off with acid

758
00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:46.639
<v Speaker 1>is not a particularly easy thing to do, so even

759
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.639
<v Speaker 1>if Jennifer was no spy, this might suggest that she

760
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.599
<v Speaker 1>at least had a background in something like organized crime.

761
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:55.960
<v Speaker 1>But here's the thing, how can we even be certain

762
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:59.320
<v Speaker 1>that Jennifer burned the numbers off herself. The weapon definitely

763
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:01.320
<v Speaker 1>looks like some thing that would have been purchased on

764
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:04.639
<v Speaker 1>the black market before. All we know, the serial numbers

765
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:07.400
<v Speaker 1>could have already been burned off by someone else before

766
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:11.239
<v Speaker 1>Jennifer even obtained it. I'm not trying to say that

767
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.599
<v Speaker 1>Jennifer was just an average run of the mill citizen

768
00:38:13.880 --> 00:38:16.760
<v Speaker 1>who'd never been involved in anything illegal in her life.

769
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:19.719
<v Speaker 1>But I don't necessarily believe that the presence of this

770
00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:23.440
<v Speaker 1>gun is concrete evidence that she was involved in government intelligence.

771
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Since only one gunshot was reported in the hotel on

772
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:29.840
<v Speaker 1>the night of Jennifer's death, we still can't be certain

773
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:32.920
<v Speaker 1>if the shot espen Nas heard was fired from the

774
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:36.159
<v Speaker 1>first or the second bullet fired from the weapon. But

775
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:39.559
<v Speaker 1>if Jennifer fired a test shot, then this indicates to

776
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:42.079
<v Speaker 1>me that she might not have had all that much

777
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:46.559
<v Speaker 1>experience with firearms. After all, if a self inflicted gunshot

778
00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:49.760
<v Speaker 1>wound to the head doesn't actually kill you, you could

779
00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:53.360
<v Speaker 1>instead wind up with serious brain damage or become a vegetable,

780
00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:56.320
<v Speaker 1>which would probably be a fate worse than death for

781
00:38:56.360 --> 00:38:57.440
<v Speaker 1>a suicidal person.

782
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:02.320
<v Speaker 3>Oh absolutely, I can't image and how horrific that would be.

783
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.400
<v Speaker 3>You know, when you're at the end of the of

784
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:05.880
<v Speaker 3>your rope and use it like all I want to

785
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:10.199
<v Speaker 3>do is leave, and then it is in a successful attempt.

786
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:11.920
<v Speaker 4>But here's the thing.

787
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:14.719
<v Speaker 3>She didn't have to be involved in anything to go

788
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.639
<v Speaker 3>up to somebody who she loosely knows and say, listen,

789
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:19.960
<v Speaker 3>I am in fear for my life. I need you

790
00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:21.840
<v Speaker 3>to help me get my hands on a weapon. And

791
00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:23.920
<v Speaker 3>the person says, oh, yeah, for sure, I can get

792
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.559
<v Speaker 3>you a weapon that no one will know anything about.

793
00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:28.639
<v Speaker 3>And they hand her this weapon and she goes to

794
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:32.400
<v Speaker 3>the hotel and complete suicide. It could be so simple

795
00:39:32.440 --> 00:39:35.199
<v Speaker 3>as just saying, hey, I need a weapon to protect myself,

796
00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:37.280
<v Speaker 3>but I don't want to go buy one. Okay, well

797
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:40.360
<v Speaker 3>I'll buy it from you. And they hand it to

798
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:43.679
<v Speaker 3>her already prepared the way that it looks suspicious, and

799
00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:45.440
<v Speaker 3>she uses that to complete suicide.

800
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:46.920
<v Speaker 4>And that's all there is to it.

801
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:50.679
<v Speaker 2>If there's one complaint I have about the Unsolved Mysteries episode,

802
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:52.920
<v Speaker 2>it's that they spent too much time focusing on the

803
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:56.559
<v Speaker 2>issue of whether Jennifer's death was murder or suicide. But

804
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:59.039
<v Speaker 2>all I said and don I still believe that suicide

805
00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:01.840
<v Speaker 2>is the most logical election explanation, and the big mystery

806
00:40:01.880 --> 00:40:05.360
<v Speaker 2>to solve is figuring out her true identity. Until I

807
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:07.519
<v Speaker 2>hear otherwise, I'm certainly not going to rule out the

808
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:11.079
<v Speaker 2>possibility that Jennifer Fairgate was a spy or a government agent.

809
00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:14.480
<v Speaker 2>But if cases like the Somerton Man, Joseph Newton, Chandler

810
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:17.199
<v Speaker 2>the Third, and Lori Erica Rouff have taught me anything,

811
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:20.000
<v Speaker 2>is that the truth is sometimes a lot less sensational.

812
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:23.280
<v Speaker 2>In any case where an unidentified deceit and is found

813
00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:25.800
<v Speaker 2>with the labels from all their items of clothing missing,

814
00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:29.039
<v Speaker 2>it's pretty much a given that amateur sluse will gravitate

815
00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:31.679
<v Speaker 2>towards the theory that the victim was a spy who

816
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.639
<v Speaker 2>removed all these labels in order to conceal their identity. However,

817
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:39.199
<v Speaker 2>whenever I come across online discussions about these types of cases,

818
00:40:39.559 --> 00:40:42.760
<v Speaker 2>I'll always hee commenters mentioned that they personally like to

819
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:45.920
<v Speaker 2>remove the labels and tags from their own clothing, not

820
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:48.960
<v Speaker 2>because they're involved in espionage, but because they simply find

821
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:51.960
<v Speaker 2>them uncomfortable. So I'm not sure I'd read too much

822
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:55.280
<v Speaker 2>into this detail, as people who have led ordinary, mundane

823
00:40:55.320 --> 00:40:59.159
<v Speaker 2>lives might have their own reasons for wanting to remain unidentified.

824
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.480
<v Speaker 2>I do think that many parallels can be made between

825
00:41:02.559 --> 00:41:06.039
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer Fairgage and Peter Bergman, as both victims may have

826
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:08.320
<v Speaker 2>wanted to spend the last few days of their lives

827
00:41:08.559 --> 00:41:11.880
<v Speaker 2>traveling to locations they had no ties to, and used

828
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:14.920
<v Speaker 2>this time to gradually dispose of all personal items which

829
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:18.400
<v Speaker 2>held any clue to their true identities. Jennifer may have

830
00:41:18.440 --> 00:41:20.840
<v Speaker 2>done this during the nearly twenty four hour windows she

831
00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.559
<v Speaker 2>was gone from her hotel room, which is why certain

832
00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:26.800
<v Speaker 2>possessions were never found. But a key difference between these

833
00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:29.119
<v Speaker 2>two cases is that Peter was believed to be in

834
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.559
<v Speaker 2>his early fifties or early sixties, and an autopsy revealed

835
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:35.440
<v Speaker 2>that he was suffering from prostate cancer and bone tumors,

836
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:37.920
<v Speaker 2>so he likely only had a few more weeks left

837
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:41.840
<v Speaker 2>to live. Anyway, Jennifer was considerably younger than him, and

838
00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:44.840
<v Speaker 2>as far as I know, her autopsy did not detect

839
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:48.280
<v Speaker 2>any serious medical issues. So we really have no idea

840
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:50.119
<v Speaker 2>why she would have chosen suicide.

841
00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:54.000
<v Speaker 3>There's just so many things that could contributed, Like we

842
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:56.280
<v Speaker 3>talked about, did something happen in that hotel room with

843
00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:58.800
<v Speaker 3>somebody else? Did she go to that hotel room with

844
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:01.039
<v Speaker 3>this plan? Did she do you have a mental breakdown

845
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.000
<v Speaker 3>while she was in the room. There's just a million

846
00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:04.880
<v Speaker 3>things that could have happened.

847
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:05.079
<v Speaker 2>Right.

848
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:07.039
<v Speaker 4>Did she get bad news? We just don't know.

849
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:10.280
<v Speaker 3>It does seem like she, at least in her head,

850
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.079
<v Speaker 3>thought that she was supposed to be meeting somebody or

851
00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:16.400
<v Speaker 3>was trying to contact people but had wrong phone numbers,

852
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:20.239
<v Speaker 3>didn't necessarily have the information that she was, you know,

853
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:24.320
<v Speaker 3>presenting that she needed. And so I think it's just

854
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:28.639
<v Speaker 3>a really interesting case that because we don't know who

855
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.400
<v Speaker 3>she was, you can't also figure out then what happened.

856
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:36.480
<v Speaker 3>But what's sad if this is a young woman, she's young,

857
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:39.760
<v Speaker 3>she's in her twenties, who is going to this hotel

858
00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:43.960
<v Speaker 3>to complete suicide. She's so lonely and think she has

859
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.559
<v Speaker 3>nobody in the world that needs her and loves her

860
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:48.519
<v Speaker 3>and it's worth taking.

861
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:48.920
<v Speaker 4>Your own life.

862
00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:51.679
<v Speaker 3>And then the irony that no one.

863
00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:53.960
<v Speaker 4>Knows who she is. I mean, it's just.

864
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:56.760
<v Speaker 3>Really really sad when you think about it, that you

865
00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:01.000
<v Speaker 3>know she had somebody in this world that needed her

866
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:04.800
<v Speaker 3>and wondered where she was. If she's from another city

867
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:08.159
<v Speaker 3>or another country or something like that, there's somebody out

868
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:11.199
<v Speaker 3>there going, I'm missing my daughter, I'm missing my sister.

869
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:13.639
<v Speaker 3>My girlfriend ran away. I and do have no idea

870
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.920
<v Speaker 3>whatever happened to her, And she's countries away in a

871
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:18.880
<v Speaker 3>hotel completing suicide.

872
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:20.679
<v Speaker 4>So the irony of that.

873
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:23.239
<v Speaker 3>It sticks really deep to me, like she's so alone,

874
00:43:23.320 --> 00:43:27.079
<v Speaker 3>she's so lonely, and then someone else is alive that

875
00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:29.440
<v Speaker 3>lonely as well because their loved one is dead and

876
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:30.480
<v Speaker 3>they don't know where.

877
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:32.440
<v Speaker 1>She is well.

878
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Early on the episode, I made reference to the suicide

879
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:37.440
<v Speaker 2>of the man who checked into a motel in Washington

880
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:40.400
<v Speaker 2>under the name Lyle Stevick, who was finally identified in

881
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:43.119
<v Speaker 2>twenty eighteen. But this was a case where they were

882
00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:46.159
<v Speaker 2>able to find his genetic relatives, but they kept so

883
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:50.079
<v Speaker 2>many details about his true identity private because his family

884
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.519
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to reveal much about who he was or

885
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:56.000
<v Speaker 2>why he was at that motel. But rumors have circulated

886
00:43:56.039 --> 00:43:58.440
<v Speaker 2>that he was completely estranged from them, so that's why

887
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:01.199
<v Speaker 2>they never officially reported missing it. So, for all we know,

888
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:03.519
<v Speaker 2>it could be the same thing with Jennifer Fairgate, where

889
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:06.360
<v Speaker 2>she might have family in another country or another part

890
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:10.719
<v Speaker 2>of Norway, but because they're estrange from her that haven't

891
00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:13.480
<v Speaker 2>had any contact with her for decades, they may never

892
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:16.440
<v Speaker 2>have officially reported or missing and might still be unaware

893
00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:17.840
<v Speaker 2>that she died in a hotel.

894
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:22.000
<v Speaker 3>That's true with sex workers, that's not uncommon, right, or

895
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:25.840
<v Speaker 3>runaways or people they consider quote throwaways, That's not uncommon

896
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:28.920
<v Speaker 3>for a family to say, listen, we tried. We tried

897
00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:30.679
<v Speaker 3>to get her help, we tried to get her home,

898
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:33.320
<v Speaker 3>we tried to get her healthy, and we just have

899
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:36.000
<v Speaker 3>to almost put boundaries up to where we can't have

900
00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:38.960
<v Speaker 3>a relationship with her, or going for years not hearing

901
00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:41.920
<v Speaker 3>from hers not odd. So you're very right that's a

902
00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:44.639
<v Speaker 3>possibility as well too. They just simply have no They

903
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:48.480
<v Speaker 3>lost track of her, and because of her lifestyle or

904
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:51.239
<v Speaker 3>because of decision she was making, or even her mental health,

905
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:53.920
<v Speaker 3>they just simply lost contact with her.

906
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:58.000
<v Speaker 1>So are there any missing persons out there who might

907
00:44:58.039 --> 00:45:01.239
<v Speaker 1>be a promising candidate to be Jennifer? Well, if you

908
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:04.400
<v Speaker 1>do a Google image search on Jennifer Fairgate, you're going

909
00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:07.599
<v Speaker 1>to come across a photograph of a woman named Kimilla Steina,

910
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.360
<v Speaker 1>who is believed to have been twenty three years old

911
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:13.280
<v Speaker 1>when she went missing in Denmark during the nineteen eighties.

912
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:16.119
<v Speaker 1>This appears to be one of those cases where you

913
00:45:16.199 --> 00:45:19.119
<v Speaker 1>can't pin down a specific date when the victim disappeared,

914
00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:22.679
<v Speaker 1>as Kimilla's brother last saw her alive sometime in nineteen

915
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:25.679
<v Speaker 1>eighty six, but her family pretty much lost touch with

916
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:28.760
<v Speaker 1>her after that, and she was not officially reported missing

917
00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:32.760
<v Speaker 1>until nineteen eighty seven. There's no direct evidence that Camilla

918
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:35.239
<v Speaker 1>was the victim of foul play, and she was known

919
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.440
<v Speaker 1>for being something of a drifter, who once stated that

920
00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:41.519
<v Speaker 1>she wished she could forsake technology and live off the land.

921
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:44.559
<v Speaker 1>In other words, Kimilla seemed like the type of person

922
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:47.079
<v Speaker 1>who would be inclined to break off all contact with

923
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:49.679
<v Speaker 1>her loved ones and eventually end her life in a

924
00:45:49.719 --> 00:45:52.400
<v Speaker 1>hotel in a country that she had no connection to.

925
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:56.119
<v Speaker 1>The most intriguing parallel is that Camilla spent a great

926
00:45:56.119 --> 00:45:58.559
<v Speaker 1>deal of money on dental work before she went missing,

927
00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:03.199
<v Speaker 1>and Jennifer gone extensive dental work as well. Now, Camilla's

928
00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:05.519
<v Speaker 1>name has always been brought up as a possible match

929
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:09.039
<v Speaker 1>in online discussions about this case, but after the Unsolved

930
00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:12.639
<v Speaker 1>Mysteries episode came out, the British tabloid The Sun decided

931
00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:15.800
<v Speaker 1>to publish an article about it out of sheer laziness.

932
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:17.960
<v Speaker 1>It seems like they did a quick Google image search,

933
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:21.199
<v Speaker 1>found a picture of Kmilla Steina and attached it to

934
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:25.400
<v Speaker 1>their article. Some other clickbait websites soon followed suit. So

935
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:28.400
<v Speaker 1>this has created some confusion and given off the mistaken

936
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.239
<v Speaker 1>impression that the photo of Camilla is actually the real

937
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:35.559
<v Speaker 1>photo of Jennifer Fairgate. In actuality, the only legitimate pictures

938
00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:38.840
<v Speaker 1>you'll find of Jennifer online are a post mortem photo

939
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:42.519
<v Speaker 1>and a composite sketch of what she looked like. Admittedly,

940
00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:45.960
<v Speaker 1>Camilla does have a pretty striking resemblance to Jennifer, so

941
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.599
<v Speaker 1>I'd like to think that investigators have already looked into

942
00:46:48.639 --> 00:46:51.800
<v Speaker 1>this ankle, and if they haven't made a DNA comparison

943
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:55.360
<v Speaker 1>yet with surviving members of Kimilla's family, here's hoping that

944
00:46:55.400 --> 00:46:58.320
<v Speaker 1>they do it in the future. In many cases involving

945
00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:02.000
<v Speaker 1>unidentified decedents, it's assumed that they had no friends or

946
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.920
<v Speaker 1>family who cared about their fate, which is why no

947
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:07.920
<v Speaker 1>one came forward to claim them. However, we've seen a

948
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:10.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of cases these past few years where John and

949
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:13.840
<v Speaker 1>Jane does have been identified and it turned out that

950
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:16.360
<v Speaker 1>they did have family members out there whom they had

951
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:20.000
<v Speaker 1>lost touch with for several years well, for various reasons

952
00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:23.599
<v Speaker 1>such as jurisdictional issues, the decedents loved ones had no

953
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:26.960
<v Speaker 1>luck finally, an official missing persons report, so they didn't

954
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:30.280
<v Speaker 1>really have any options for finding them. Even if Jennifer

955
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Fairgate is not Kimila Steina, then it might be a

956
00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:36.880
<v Speaker 1>similar story involving another young woman who simply lost touch

957
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.159
<v Speaker 1>with her family, and she's never been reported missing. If

958
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:43.679
<v Speaker 1>Jennifer hailed from another country outside of Norway, such as Germany,

959
00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:45.920
<v Speaker 1>then you can see why no one has put two

960
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:47.320
<v Speaker 1>and two together yet.

961
00:47:48.039 --> 00:47:51.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I could absolutely see why there would be a disconnect.

962
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:53.800
<v Speaker 3>But Robin, you were telling us that over in Europe

963
00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:56.800
<v Speaker 3>they're not doing the genetic genealogy and the DNA testing

964
00:47:56.840 --> 00:47:58.360
<v Speaker 3>at the level we're doing here in the US.

965
00:47:58.440 --> 00:47:58.960
<v Speaker 4>Is that right?

966
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I'm not even sure if they've done it at all,

967
00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:05.840
<v Speaker 2>because genetic genealogy has only been around since twenty eighteen

968
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:09.719
<v Speaker 2>in criminal investigations in North America, but I've yet to

969
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:12.679
<v Speaker 2>hear anything about when and if Europe is planning to

970
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:15.079
<v Speaker 2>implement it, so I really don't think they have used

971
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:18.920
<v Speaker 2>it in this particular case. Perhaps all the speculation about

972
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:22.440
<v Speaker 2>espionage and government intelligence is nothing more than smoke and mirrors,

973
00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:24.760
<v Speaker 2>and Jennifer was just a woman who wanted to live

974
00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:27.280
<v Speaker 2>off the grid and enterr life on her own terms.

975
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.840
<v Speaker 2>They're definitely a bunch of unanswered questions, and perhaps the

976
00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:33.880
<v Speaker 2>answer hinges on the identity of the man known only

977
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:37.920
<v Speaker 2>as Lewis Fairgate. If he actually exists. It's possible that

978
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:40.559
<v Speaker 2>even if he had no involvement in Jennifer's death, he

979
00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:42.519
<v Speaker 2>may have still spent some time with her at the

980
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Oslo Plaza and could hold some answers about her true identity.

981
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:48.480
<v Speaker 2>If this case had taken place in the United States,

982
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:51.559
<v Speaker 2>it's possible that Jennifer would have already been identified by

983
00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:55.440
<v Speaker 2>now via genetic genealogy, but laws are different in Norway,

984
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:58.599
<v Speaker 2>so at the moment, all the authorities can really do

985
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:01.719
<v Speaker 2>is uncover a promise candidate to be a match had

986
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:04.719
<v Speaker 2>then obtained a DNA sample from the relatives in order

987
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:07.800
<v Speaker 2>to make a comparison. The good thing about this story

988
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:10.599
<v Speaker 2>being profiled and unsolved mysteries is that it's no longer

989
00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:14.079
<v Speaker 2>a niche case which only gets discussed among online slus

990
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:18.679
<v Speaker 2>since it's now gotten exposure on Netflix. Jennifer Fairgate's composite

991
00:49:18.679 --> 00:49:21.760
<v Speaker 2>sketches everywhere, and people all over the world now know

992
00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:25.800
<v Speaker 2>her face. Before genetic genealogy, this was pretty much how

993
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:29.840
<v Speaker 2>many cases involving John and Jane does got solved. Someone

994
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:32.639
<v Speaker 2>would come across the decedent's photo or a composite sketch

995
00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:35.800
<v Speaker 2>online and notice a resemblance to someone they used to know,

996
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:40.519
<v Speaker 2>and DNA testing eventually proved their instincts correct. So this

997
00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:44.199
<v Speaker 2>might be how Jennifer Fairgate ultimately gets identified. And if

998
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:47.079
<v Speaker 2>you happen to have any information on her identity or

999
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:51.000
<v Speaker 2>the circumstances of her death, please contact the appropriate authorities.

1000
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:54.320
<v Speaker 2>Jules Ashley, any final thoughts on this case.

1001
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:57.679
<v Speaker 3>I think, like I said earlier, the biggest thing that

1002
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:00.239
<v Speaker 3>sticks out to me here is, like you said said,

1003
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:04.079
<v Speaker 3>the most simple explanation is probably the reality that you

1004
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:07.360
<v Speaker 3>had this young girl who was struggling with her mental health.

1005
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:10.000
<v Speaker 3>She might have been facing a challenge that you know,

1006
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:13.159
<v Speaker 3>as a young girl, felt like it couldn't be overcome.

1007
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:15.760
<v Speaker 3>And we know when't you know, the older you get,

1008
00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:18.719
<v Speaker 3>you go like I can survive anything, right if I

1009
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:22.679
<v Speaker 3>keep going. But when you're young, sometimes things have such

1010
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:25.960
<v Speaker 3>a finality to them, or like they seem world ending.

1011
00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:29.760
<v Speaker 3>And so it's very possible that this young girl checks

1012
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:32.320
<v Speaker 3>into this hotel with a plan to take her own

1013
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:33.920
<v Speaker 3>life because she just.

1014
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:34.840
<v Speaker 4>Can't do it anymore.

1015
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:37.960
<v Speaker 3>And the sad part, like I said, is that to

1016
00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:40.559
<v Speaker 3>have that mentality and to say people would either be

1017
00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:43.000
<v Speaker 3>better off without me here or no one would miss me,

1018
00:50:43.719 --> 00:50:46.519
<v Speaker 3>and then to not have your identity known or have

1019
00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:50.400
<v Speaker 3>anyone being able to claim your body or to put

1020
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:51.840
<v Speaker 3>you to rest, or to mourn you.

1021
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:55.559
<v Speaker 4>It's just all so sad. It's a young.

1022
00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:57.119
<v Speaker 3>Girl, and I don't care what she was involved in.

1023
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:01.000
<v Speaker 3>Let's say she's the head kingpin of drug ring, or

1024
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:05.800
<v Speaker 3>she's you know, a major sex worker, or she's a spy,

1025
00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:09.800
<v Speaker 3>or just a young girl who has had too much

1026
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:13.360
<v Speaker 3>on our shoulders. It's a young girl who's deceased and

1027
00:51:13.400 --> 00:51:15.599
<v Speaker 3>there's no way of knowing who she is. My prayer

1028
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:19.320
<v Speaker 3>for so many families is that some of these European

1029
00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:24.920
<v Speaker 3>countries that are not really chasing this DNA technology start

1030
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:28.039
<v Speaker 3>to realize how significant it is. Because it's not just

1031
00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:32.400
<v Speaker 3>her case, it's hundreds of thousands of cases where question

1032
00:51:32.519 --> 00:51:35.920
<v Speaker 3>marks could become answers for a family. And so that's

1033
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:38.360
<v Speaker 3>it kind of speaks to a bigger issue here of

1034
00:51:38.440 --> 00:51:41.599
<v Speaker 3>the importance of needing the ability to do that kind

1035
00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:44.039
<v Speaker 3>of genetic testing and a DNA matching.

1036
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:47.920
<v Speaker 1>I agree with everything you said, Ash. I think if

1037
00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:51.440
<v Speaker 1>these countries could operate in the way that the US

1038
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:54.039
<v Speaker 1>is right now, I think it would solve a lot

1039
00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:56.880
<v Speaker 1>a lot of open cases that they have with John

1040
00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:59.880
<v Speaker 1>and Jane does and maybe we would find out if

1041
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:03.920
<v Speaker 1>Jennifer Fairgate is indeed Kamilla Steina. I mean, it's a

1042
00:52:04.039 --> 00:52:07.519
<v Speaker 1>very interesting parallel that they look so much alike and

1043
00:52:07.559 --> 00:52:09.119
<v Speaker 1>that a lot of people think that they could be

1044
00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:13.920
<v Speaker 1>the same person. But there's so many unanswered questions with

1045
00:52:14.039 --> 00:52:17.320
<v Speaker 1>this case, and like if it was indeed Camilla Steina,

1046
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:20.440
<v Speaker 1>it just doesn't seem to me personally in line that

1047
00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:23.840
<v Speaker 1>she would go to the Plaza Hotel and she would

1048
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:27.000
<v Speaker 1>have all of these kind of fancy clothes somebody living

1049
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:31.000
<v Speaker 1>off the grid doesn't really align with me. With somebody

1050
00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:33.920
<v Speaker 1>wanting to go to like the most luxurious hotel and

1051
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:38.159
<v Speaker 1>to have items in her wardrobe like that blazer that

1052
00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:39.840
<v Speaker 1>I'd looked up what it would have costed that and

1053
00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:42.280
<v Speaker 1>it was between three and eight hundred dollars. It just

1054
00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:44.599
<v Speaker 1>doesn't seem off the grid to me. And I mean,

1055
00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:47.840
<v Speaker 1>between nineteen eighty six and nineteen ninety five, things could

1056
00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:49.559
<v Speaker 1>have changed in her life. It could have been the

1057
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:52.559
<v Speaker 1>exact same person, and her life just took a turn

1058
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:56.639
<v Speaker 1>and her taste changed and her objective changed, and that's

1059
00:52:56.679 --> 00:52:59.159
<v Speaker 1>what brought her to the Plaza Hotel. But I am

1060
00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:02.679
<v Speaker 1>more inclined with what Robin had originally theorized in his

1061
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.480
<v Speaker 1>original Trail One Cold episode to think that she's more likely,

1062
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:08.719
<v Speaker 1>in my opinion, to be a sex worker than she

1063
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:11.440
<v Speaker 1>is to be a spy. I think that the gun

1064
00:53:11.639 --> 00:53:14.920
<v Speaker 1>is likely something that she had for her protection, and

1065
00:53:14.960 --> 00:53:18.440
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't mean that she burned off those serial numbers herself.

1066
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:21.239
<v Speaker 1>She may have got it from some source in the underworld,

1067
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:24.320
<v Speaker 1>because if she was indeed a sex worker, she might

1068
00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:27.079
<v Speaker 1>have had access to the types of people who would

1069
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:29.480
<v Speaker 1>have allowed her to procure a gun, such as that

1070
00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:33.199
<v Speaker 1>they would have been untraceable. Why she needed that Attashey

1071
00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:36.920
<v Speaker 1>case with twenty five bullets, I'm not sure, but I

1072
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:40.639
<v Speaker 1>just really hope that my ash said in the coming

1073
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:44.800
<v Speaker 1>years and at least in the next decade, that Europe

1074
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:47.719
<v Speaker 1>catches up with the genetic genealogy and being able to

1075
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:49.440
<v Speaker 1>apply it to these unsolved cases.

1076
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I definitely do hope that happens, because on the

1077
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Trail when Cold, I often do year end Q and

1078
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:58.079
<v Speaker 2>A episodes, and one question I get virtually every the

1079
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.800
<v Speaker 2>year is which case have you covered up podcast that

1080
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:04.079
<v Speaker 2>you think will eventually be solved? And virtually every time

1081
00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:07.599
<v Speaker 2>I pick a case involving an unidentified John or Jane Doe,

1082
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:10.679
<v Speaker 2>and more often than not they do wind up getting identified,

1083
00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:13.119
<v Speaker 2>because that's just the way things are working now in

1084
00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:16.519
<v Speaker 2>North America with genetic genealogy, where all these people who

1085
00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:20.320
<v Speaker 2>have been unidentified for decades are finally getting their names back.

1086
00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:22.360
<v Speaker 2>And I would like to say the same thing about

1087
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.719
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer Fairgate, but like we just said that, they have

1088
00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:29.920
<v Speaker 2>not implemented genetic genealogy in Europe. And that's why Peter Bergman,

1089
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:33.800
<v Speaker 2>another John Doe whom we checked into a hotel and

1090
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:36.840
<v Speaker 2>died under strange circumstances and we talked about on the

1091
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Path went Chile, he also has not been identified either,

1092
00:54:40.039 --> 00:54:44.000
<v Speaker 2>even though he died fifteen years ago. So yeah, I

1093
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.719
<v Speaker 2>do hope that happens. And I remember when this was

1094
00:54:46.920 --> 00:54:50.320
<v Speaker 2>featured on Unsolved Mysteries over four years ago, and I

1095
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.320
<v Speaker 2>was really excited to see it because this was a

1096
00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:55.440
<v Speaker 2>case I had read about on Reddit but had not

1097
00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:58.360
<v Speaker 2>gotten a lot of international exposure. So I was great

1098
00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:01.079
<v Speaker 2>to see it on a platform like now neflicks because

1099
00:55:01.119 --> 00:55:04.159
<v Speaker 2>it increased the chances of her being identified. Maybe the

1100
00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:06.599
<v Speaker 2>right person would watch it. And yeah, I do think

1101
00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:09.239
<v Speaker 2>that the segment focused too much on the foul play

1102
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:12.920
<v Speaker 2>versus suicide theory. I really do think the simplest explanation

1103
00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:15.920
<v Speaker 2>is the correct one, that she died by suicide and

1104
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:18.920
<v Speaker 2>there was no grand conspiracy or no assassins and no

1105
00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:22.000
<v Speaker 2>espionage involved, and that when we do find out the

1106
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.960
<v Speaker 2>truth of our identity, I have a feeling it'll be

1107
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:26.679
<v Speaker 2>a lot more simple, and maybe we'll find out she

1108
00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:28.719
<v Speaker 2>was a sex worker, or maybe we'll find out she

1109
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:31.239
<v Speaker 2>was a lonely person who decided to check into a

1110
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:34.480
<v Speaker 2>fancy hotel and end her life for reasons that only

1111
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:37.440
<v Speaker 2>she will understand. But I do remember we made reference

1112
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:40.400
<v Speaker 2>to the Delano case and unsolved mysteries, and that's one

1113
00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:43.800
<v Speaker 2>that got solved in the pre DNA years just because

1114
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:46.960
<v Speaker 2>the medical examiner who examined her body just happened to

1115
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:50.679
<v Speaker 2>watch the TV show about Gail Delano's disappearance and recognized

1116
00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:53.119
<v Speaker 2>her as the Jane Doe and that's how she wound

1117
00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:55.920
<v Speaker 2>up being identified. So maybe something like that will happen

1118
00:55:55.960 --> 00:56:00.519
<v Speaker 2>with Jennifer Fairgates case. Someone will just see her composite sketches. Aha,

1119
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:02.599
<v Speaker 2>I knew this woman and I haven't seen her since

1120
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:05.360
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety five. That could be her and we will

1121
00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:08.360
<v Speaker 2>finally get conclusive answers to this very tragic mystery.

1122
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1123
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:12.920
<v Speaker 1>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

1124
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:16.039
<v Speaker 2>Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1125
00:56:16.119 --> 00:56:19.840
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1126
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:23.320
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1127
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:26.199
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1128
00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:28.760
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

1129
00:56:28.840 --> 00:56:32.920
<v Speaker 2>tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

1130
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:36.079
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

1131
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon,

1132
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:42.239
<v Speaker 2>and if you join our highest tier tier three, the

1133
00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:45.239
<v Speaker 2>ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is

1134
00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:49.599
<v Speaker 2>a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsawved Mysteries,

1135
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:52.800
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

1136
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:56.079
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

1137
00:56:56.119 --> 00:56:59.480
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

1138
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:02.639
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

1139
00:57:02.679 --> 00:57:06.119
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

1140
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:08.960
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1141
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:11.800
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1142
00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:14.559
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

1143
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:17.559
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1144
00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:18.360
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

1145
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:20.079
<v Speaker 5>So I want to let you know a little bit

1146
00:57:20.119 --> 00:57:23.079
<v Speaker 5>about the jeweles and n ashy patreons. So there's early ad

1147
00:57:23.079 --> 00:57:26.000
<v Speaker 5>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

1148
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:29.000
<v Speaker 5>Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so

1149
00:57:29.039 --> 00:57:31.159
<v Speaker 5>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

1150
00:57:31.199 --> 00:57:34.119
<v Speaker 5>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.

1151
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:36.719
<v Speaker 1>So we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link

1152
00:57:36.760 --> 00:57:37.840
<v Speaker 1>them in the show notes.

1153
00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:40.239
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1154
00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:42.679
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

1155
00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:45.760
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or d rate and review is greatly appreciated.

1156
00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:49.000
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

1157
00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:51.880
<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So

1158
00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:54.599
<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

1159
00:57:54.639 --> 00:57:57.079
<v Speaker 2>trails and Chili pass call for warm clothing.

1160
00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:00.639
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy