WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Missouri's Attorney General and their Supreme Court has found themselves

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<v Speaker 1>embroiled in a civil rights case taking place on death row.

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<v Speaker 1>And Phoebe Rose is here to fill us in. On Moore,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you got for it?

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<v Speaker 2>Is?

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<v Speaker 3>Phoebe have the case the case of innocence that won't

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<v Speaker 3>keep on with the times. The Attorney General of Missouri

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<v Speaker 3>is determined to try to execute a man where DNA

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<v Speaker 3>evidence has found this man to be probably an innocent man,

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<v Speaker 3>not a not guilty finding, but probably an innocent man.

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<v Speaker 3>And he is continuously trying his very best to block

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<v Speaker 3>an innocence hearing for this gentleman. The innocence projects are involved,

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<v Speaker 3>and he is absolutely determined carte blanche, no matter what,

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<v Speaker 3>to stick that needle in this poor man's arm. The

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<v Speaker 3>man has been on death row for a large chunk

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<v Speaker 3>of his life, and a large chunk of the job

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<v Speaker 3>of the Missouri Attorney General seems to be trying to

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<v Speaker 3>kill this man. This article is from the Death Penalty

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<v Speaker 3>Information Center on the twenty second of July twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 3>And Jonathan, if you were the Missouri Attorney General, would

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<v Speaker 3>you be spending a large chunk of your job trying

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<v Speaker 3>to kill this poor man.

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<v Speaker 2>No, as a matter of fact, I would think that

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<v Speaker 2>the entire thing never should have gotten through court to

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<v Speaker 2>begin with. The judge in the trial apparently refused to

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<v Speaker 2>allow DNA testing. I don't know what precedent that was

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<v Speaker 2>set on, but that sounds completely a bunch of mouthfeasance

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<v Speaker 2>to me, and I know it's just another case of

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<v Speaker 2>people who are not wealthy getting a second tier justice

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<v Speaker 2>in the justice system, and people who are even lower

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<v Speaker 2>than that by situation or otherwise are given the not

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<v Speaker 2>given the benefit of the doubt in court. They're just

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<v Speaker 2>assumed that the people who were bringing the charges or

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<v Speaker 2>who were arresting the person are right and everybody else

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<v Speaker 2>is wrong, though there's evidence to prove this man is

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<v Speaker 2>not just not guilty, but innocent and wasn't even involved

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<v Speaker 2>in it at all. So the fact that the attorney

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<v Speaker 2>general is doing this is no surprise because in Missouri,

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<v Speaker 2>attorneys general for decades have been fighting all innocence court

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<v Speaker 2>actions just like this. It seems to be a policy

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<v Speaker 2>that they never allow innocence things to go forward without

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<v Speaker 2>a major fight, and they're hoping I think that the

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<v Speaker 2>people involved will run out of funds before it gets

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<v Speaker 2>to the Supreme Court. But you know, it's like even

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<v Speaker 2>within the state, the Supreme court of the state. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's like, this judge figures that if he lets the

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<v Speaker 2>clock run out and the guy is killed, the whole

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<v Speaker 2>case is moot. So it's like, why do we need

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<v Speaker 2>to accept sculpatory evidence in this case when by the

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<v Speaker 2>time any of this gets done, we'll already be done

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<v Speaker 2>with this guy, the case will be and whoever really

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<v Speaker 2>did do this will be free. And I would be

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<v Speaker 2>interested to know of who they think actually did it

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<v Speaker 2>or if they have any clue.

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<v Speaker 1>But anyway, Kelly, Yeah, there was a quote that in

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<v Speaker 1>this article that really jumped out at me this time.

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<v Speaker 1>The Missouri Attorney General's Office has previously said in the

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<v Speaker 1>past that innocence is not enough to prevent an execution.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to repeat that innocence is not enough to

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<v Speaker 1>prevent an execution. The Missouri Attorney General's Office has no

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<v Speaker 1>problem executing an innocent man when they know that that

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<v Speaker 1>man is innocent. So I'm trying to decide to myself, wordoff,

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<v Speaker 1>fuck is Missouri? At are they still stuck in the

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<v Speaker 1>middle of the dark ages? What is going on down

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<v Speaker 1>there when the Justice Department, which is supposed to be

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<v Speaker 1>for exactly that justice, isn't doing its job this, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>killing somebody, executing somebody with knowing that they're innocent is

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<v Speaker 1>definitely not justice. Phoebeu has something you.

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<v Speaker 3>Want to say, Murder murder. The premeditated killing of an

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<v Speaker 3>individual without lawful justification is murder.

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<v Speaker 1>State sponsered murder.

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<v Speaker 3>If you know an individual is innocent, and you, the

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<v Speaker 3>state official, acting as the arm of the law of

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<v Speaker 3>the state, go ahead and kill that person and do

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<v Speaker 3>everything in your power to kill that person. You are

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<v Speaker 3>engaged in murder of that person. It doesn't matter that

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<v Speaker 3>they're in a building called to prison or a jail.

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<v Speaker 3>It doesn't matter that they're in the custody of the state.

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<v Speaker 3>This person has civil rights, whether you like them or not.

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<v Speaker 3>Jeffrey Dahmer had civil rights, and he eight people, he

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<v Speaker 3>openedly admit to people. Yet he is still afforded more

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<v Speaker 3>civil rights than this person is by the Missouri Attorney General.

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<v Speaker 3>That is the level of lunacy and round the absolute

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<v Speaker 3>nonsense mongering that is going on here. The Missouri Attorney

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<v Speaker 3>General is not fit to be an attorney if he

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<v Speaker 3>is directing his office to proceed with something that he

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<v Speaker 3>knows is going to result in the death and killing

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<v Speaker 3>by the state of an innocent individual. And this is

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<v Speaker 3>why I will always and forever stand against the death penalty.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not a deterrent in any way, shape or form,

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<v Speaker 3>because America's had the death penalty in every state but

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<v Speaker 3>Michigan forever. Michigan is the only state that has a

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<v Speaker 3>constitutional block in its state constitution against the death Fentain

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<v Speaker 3>is the only state that has never executed somebody since

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<v Speaker 3>it gained statehood. The other forty nine states have all

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<v Speaker 3>killed people in the name of their citizens, and they

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<v Speaker 3>killed innocent people. And you can't undo death. And because

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<v Speaker 3>you can't undo death, you kill one innocent person, you

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<v Speaker 3>can't bring a back to life when you know they

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<v Speaker 3>are innocent. And that is why I will forever no

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<v Speaker 3>matter what arguments you give me about justice, it's not justice.

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<v Speaker 3>It's retribution. It's revenge. It's making you feel good when

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<v Speaker 3>you see the person that you think killed your loved

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<v Speaker 3>one killed themselves. We are not the Biblical life for

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<v Speaker 3>an eye cramp in the twenty first century. We don't

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<v Speaker 3>go around killing people. We move beyond that, and when

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<v Speaker 3>you kill an innocent person because you believe zealously that

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<v Speaker 3>they deserve it, because you believe they are guilty, you

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<v Speaker 3>are part of the problem. You cannot kill an innocent man,

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<v Speaker 3>and the states will kill innocent people because the justice

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<v Speaker 3>system is not perfect. The death penalty system is flawed,

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<v Speaker 3>and it is irreversible. So I will never ever stand

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<v Speaker 3>in support of killing anybody by the state or any

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<v Speaker 3>death sentence, no matter who the individual is.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. Fortunately, the courts do not see it the way

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<v Speaker 2>the AG sees it. And one of the things that's

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<v Speaker 2>interesting about this is when the prosecutor who put them

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<v Speaker 2>on death row finds new evidence he missed or excluded

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<v Speaker 2>a trial that proves they are not guilty and applies

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<v Speaker 2>to have his own case vacated, which has happened in

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<v Speaker 2>this case. Don't you think that should be listened to?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I mean, I agree with you. The death

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<v Speaker 2>penalty is not is absolutely wrong in any case, because

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<v Speaker 2>you never know what the future brings as far as

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<v Speaker 2>new evidence or new situations to light, especially especially when

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<v Speaker 2>you're the attorney general, you should be open minded and

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit more less. I've got to be a

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<v Speaker 2>strong politically a strong age, or else they might you know,

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<v Speaker 2>have a public might have a problem with me. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, again, this might even be a case of

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<v Speaker 2>historically ags who succumbed to innocence projects didn't get re

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<v Speaker 2>elected or some stupid shit like that. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I just or there is some historic unwritten rule or

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<v Speaker 2>even written in their non public rules that you always

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<v Speaker 2>oppose these cases, or what fighting innocence claims goes far

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<v Speaker 2>far before the current AG. But it's just so, what

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<v Speaker 2>is really behind this irrational stance? Political capital ass kissing

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<v Speaker 2>a governor who wants to be seen as cracking down

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<v Speaker 2>on crime looking to run for higher office? Or is

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<v Speaker 2>it even more insidious? Is it because the man is

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<v Speaker 2>a person of color? He's a black man? So we

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<v Speaker 2>can close this case by accusing an innocent man of

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<v Speaker 2>this and railroading him to the death chair. There and

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<v Speaker 2>that way we can close this case, and whoever did

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<v Speaker 2>this can get away with it, and even if we

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<v Speaker 2>don't know who that is. That is, if you want

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<v Speaker 2>to solve a case, solve the case and get rid

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<v Speaker 2>of by exclusion those who could not have done it.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, that's not how you investigate something. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not how you The original judge excluded DNA events,

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<v Speaker 2>refused to allow DNA evidence to be gotten in the

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<v Speaker 2>first place, because there was DNA evidence from the investigation.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's like, then another judge on an appeal of

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<v Speaker 2>that overturn that and when they got the results, guess

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<v Speaker 2>what this is seventeen years this man spent in prison

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<v Speaker 2>and he didn't do it. Get over your fucking ego

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<v Speaker 2>about I can't have something overturned on my watch and

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<v Speaker 2>just let it go. And that's the kind of thing

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<v Speaker 2>that it torques my chain to the point of where

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<v Speaker 2>I'm getting really really angry at this.

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<v Speaker 1>This isn't Missouri the show me state exactly, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>And here a right and here are these people trying

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<v Speaker 1>to show this DNA evidence and they're turning a blind

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<v Speaker 1>eye to it. I think that's kind of ironic in

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<v Speaker 1>and of itself. And I think you make a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>good case for some of the motivations behind what's going

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<v Speaker 1>on here, Phoebe. You made a pretty pretty good case

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<v Speaker 1>against the death penalty as a whole. But do you

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<v Speaker 1>have any criticisms about the way the AG is handling

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<v Speaker 1>this particular case. Do you think the prosecutor is just

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<v Speaker 1>on like a scorched earth type policy when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to executions.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not the prosecutor. It's not a scorched earth policy. Here.

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<v Speaker 3>The prosecutor in this case has applied to have the

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<v Speaker 3>conviction by case.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what, I'm sorry. That was my bad. I

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<v Speaker 1>should have said the age that the state ag. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the Attorney General.

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<v Speaker 3>The Attorney General has every turn tried to block court cases.

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<v Speaker 3>The execution is still penciled in for next month, still

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<v Speaker 3>penciled into tape place in September. Let's not forget this

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<v Speaker 3>man is still at the time of recording, and probably

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<v Speaker 3>if you're watching this in August twenty twenty four, at

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<v Speaker 3>time of watching this on death row, when there is

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<v Speaker 3>evidence that this man is innocent, the prosecutor who prosecuted

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<v Speaker 3>him has said, I want to vacate this conviction, and

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<v Speaker 3>the Attorney General is still determined to press ahead with

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<v Speaker 3>killing this man. I don't understand it. I do not,

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<v Speaker 3>as a human being, understand that in a humanity fashion.

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<v Speaker 3>I cannot get my head into the mentality of the

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<v Speaker 3>Attorney General who is so resolute in trying to push

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<v Speaker 3>this forwards. I can't get my head into that at all.

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<v Speaker 3>I just cannot, in any way, shape or form, get

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<v Speaker 3>my head around that. I don't know what's going on

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<v Speaker 3>in his office. I don't know what his politics are.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know what his posses are. Frankly, I couldn't

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<v Speaker 3>give a ratzas about his politics or his policies. Couldn't

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<v Speaker 3>give a toss. What I give a toss about is

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<v Speaker 3>the law itself. The law itself here says he's entitled

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<v Speaker 3>to an innocence here. The law itself here says that

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<v Speaker 3>when the motion of a Kate is there, it should

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<v Speaker 3>be heard. The law itself says the evidence of innocence

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<v Speaker 3>should be looked into in these cases. There's an Australian

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<v Speaker 3>television show that somebody said, I do not give a

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<v Speaker 3>toss about what you think justice is. The only thing

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<v Speaker 3>I give a toss about is the law itself. Because

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<v Speaker 3>everybody has their own different understandings and ideas of justice.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a nebulous nonsense justice. What is justice? At the

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<v Speaker 3>end of the day, The three of us have different

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<v Speaker 3>definitions of it. The producer of this show will have

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<v Speaker 3>a different definition of it. The people who find the

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<v Speaker 3>articles for this show will have a different definition of it.

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<v Speaker 3>Every talking head on other shows that the atheist community

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<v Speaker 3>producers will have a different definition of it, and every

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<v Speaker 3>viewer will have a different definition. The law itself here

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<v Speaker 3>is clear. The man is entitled to an innocence hearing.

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<v Speaker 3>The Supreme Court has said so. So why is his

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<v Speaker 3>death still on the books for a date in September?

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<v Speaker 1>Because as innocence is in an excuse to call off

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<v Speaker 1>an execution, we already know that that's not the law,

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<v Speaker 1>mister Attorney General. It's just it's unbelievable. Like I said,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, these are the people that you are expecting

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<v Speaker 1>to uphold the law, and it's just they're just acting

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<v Speaker 1>like they don't need to, like they're above it. It

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<v Speaker 1>blows me away that a state justice department can get

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<v Speaker 1>away with something like this.

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<v Speaker 3>I always say this to anybody listening to this show

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<v Speaker 3>that is gung hope. When you are saying that criminals

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<v Speaker 3>have too many rights, the accused have too many death

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<v Speaker 3>row inmates have too many rights, I ask you this

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<v Speaker 3>question and think, honestly, if you were haul in front

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<v Speaker 3>of a judge, what would you want for you in

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<v Speaker 3>your own selfish self preservation of you? Because I'm pretty

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<v Speaker 3>sure you'd want access to an attorney. I'm pretty sure

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<v Speaker 3>you'd want a fair and speedy trial, and I'm pretty

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<v Speaker 3>sure you'd want to know all the evidence and charges

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<v Speaker 3>before you. And I'm pretty sure that you'd want to

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<v Speaker 3>be able to argue your innocence and to be found

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<v Speaker 3>not guilty of the crime. And I'm pretty sure that

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<v Speaker 3>you would not want to be executed for somebody else's crime.

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<v Speaker 3>And if you are not one of those people, then

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<v Speaker 3>I'm pretty sure I don't actually want to know you.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm pretty sure I don't actually want to meet

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<v Speaker 3>you because I don't think you actually have any humanity

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<v Speaker 3>in there at all. Because it's just wrong. This is

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<v Speaker 3>just wrong. You can't sugarcoat this. When someone's life is

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<v Speaker 3>on the line. It is wrong to try and do

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<v Speaker 3>everything in your power to kill them when you know

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<v Speaker 3>that killing them could be as a result of evidence

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<v Speaker 3>that is cramp wrong, buncum, irrelevant when they actually didn't

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<v Speaker 3>do it. I'm not saying he didn't do it. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>saying the evidence says he didn't do it.

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<v Speaker 1>John made a good point too. I mean, if they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be punishing this innocent man, we have somebody

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<v Speaker 1>guilty running around free, And I think that's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a frightening idea of thought in itself, you know, So,

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<v Speaker 1>why you would think that the Justice Department had spent

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<v Speaker 1>instead of spending its energy to make sure that money's pardon, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and money to make sure this execution goes through, they

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<v Speaker 1>would be spending that time, energy and money on finding

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<v Speaker 1>who it actually was who committed this crime.

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<v Speaker 2>To start searching that to find who it is. They

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<v Speaker 2>have a fingerprint of this guy, the DNA of this

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<v Speaker 2>guy who did it, Go find him? Right? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Why aren't they going after they're looking for familial DNA?

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<v Speaker 3>I say this, and I ask you to this question

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<v Speaker 3>in an honest manner. When you are arrested, and you

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<v Speaker 3>are and you cannot afford for an attorney, would you

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<v Speaker 3>expect the state to be able to or be required

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<v Speaker 3>to provide you with an attorney? So, say you had

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<v Speaker 3>limited funds, would you expect to be given a public defender?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, because as part of the law, it's the law

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<v Speaker 2>that says that you will be provided with an attorney.

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<v Speaker 3>Forty seven states, they will send you a bill, it

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<v Speaker 3>will make you pay for a public defender. If they

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<v Speaker 3>determine that you can afford it. And that is the

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<v Speaker 3>base level problem with the system that manifests in what

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<v Speaker 3>we are discussing now, because it gives off this impression

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<v Speaker 3>of Coppa Gander up the wazoo. The criminal justice system

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<v Speaker 3>can do no wrong. If you've been arrested, you're presumed

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<v Speaker 3>to be guilty, and to hell with you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's no argument.

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<v Speaker 1>It's yeah, no argument from me either. I think we're

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<v Speaker 1>all pretty much in agreement on this story. So uh,

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<v Speaker 1>I think we'll just wrap it up, and I just

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<v Speaker 1>want to remind our audience that we do have a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of really cool merch at the ACA, and you

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<v Speaker 1>can check it out at tiny dot c c slash

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<v Speaker 1>ACA Merch