WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:08.720 Well, Whiskey coming game, pay money, Molly, Oh Whiskey, don't 2 00:00:08.759 --> 00:00:09.359 you Leave Me? 3 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:15.919 From Powerline blog dot com and produced by Ricochet dot Com. 4 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:21.559 This is the Three Whiskey Happy Hour with your bartenders 5 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:26.519 Steve Hayward, John You and power Lines International Woman of 6 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:28.839 Mystery Lucretia. 7 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:33.719 Has gotta giving. Let that whiskey bloon where you're being 8 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:40.560 in loud down in loon. Well, Hi everybody, and welcome 9 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:44.039 to what is in fact a very special holiday midweek 10 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:46.719 edition of the Three Whiskey Happy Hour. Uh if you 11 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.119 listened last weekend, we weren't able to get together, but 12 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:52.320 now we are here midweek and I am joined as 13 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:58.840 always been, the obstreperous John You and the only irascible Lucretiev. 14 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:01.640 I call you eppers John, because I am working on 15 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:04.760 a reply I keep getting diverted to your latest entry 16 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:06.760 in our Natural Laws series on Substack. 17 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:09.560 I thought you'd just given up by now. 18 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:14.200 No I knew you were going to say that it's 19 00:01:14.239 --> 00:01:21.560 been months, it's been months, weeks, whatever it's been. 20 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:25.640 But also there's some there's some fresh new outrages from you, John, 21 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.599 which will will turn to you presently. But first of all, 22 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:30.480 one of the reasons we couldn't get together is you know, 23 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:34.040 you were traveling back and forth from Zurich. Supposedly I 24 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:36.400 alleged you are really hunting down mcribs. 25 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.319 But did you really go to Zurich? And what did 26 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:41.159 you say there? And I think I have a hint, 27 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:43.560 it's what's in your article for Cimitas. Am I right 28 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:43.959 about that? 29 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:47.200 Actually this was different. So I went to Zurich to 30 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.200 participate in a conference pulled together by something called the 31 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:55.400 Global Liberty Institute, which was set up by Scott Atlas 32 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:58.120 at the Hoover Institution, who was one of the great 33 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:02.239 critics of the COVID show downs, and so he he 34 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.799 had us to do a panel on civil liberties during 35 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:10.919 the COVID emergency, which I've written. Yes, I mean, so, 36 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:13.120 the one interesting thing I think a lot of people 37 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:15.639 in the world don't know about is that Switzerland didn't 38 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:18.800 lock down very long, and so there's actually a lot 39 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.479 of interesting comparative data. I think Sweden also, So you 40 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.360 look at Sweden and Switzerland compared to the United States, 41 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:30.159 and they I think Switzerland was like that lockdown for 42 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:33.759 just like three weeks maybe, and then their economy fully 43 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:37.879 reopened and they had no worse outcomes in terms of 44 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:39.319 public health than we did. 45 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:41.599 Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. 46 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:43.159 Sweden was much much better. 47 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:47.039 Actually, yeah, and Sweden was better. Yeah right, absolutely, So, 48 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.360 I mean the evidence is now in. I think that 49 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:51.280 now there's all kinds of things you got to do 50 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:54.879 about the statistics because a Swiss population is different, and 51 00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:58.000 all kinds of stuff like that. But it really shows 52 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:01.439 you what a huge mistake it was to follow. Yeah, 53 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.560 you know the views of doctor Fauci and all the 54 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:08.680 other science you know, technocracy and that Scott Atless and 55 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:10.520 Jay Bichario right all along. 56 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:15.879 Yeah, now, mister science, to you, John Well, I have 57 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:18.319 to say that, you know, we're big Scott Atlas fans, 58 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:20.919 Lucretian and I had Scott on for podcast one time 59 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.560 when you were not available. But I have to say 60 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.199 global liberty is almost an oxymoron. 61 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:28.759 I think just. 62 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:31.840 Getting back to the old principles that liberty is vindicated 63 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:33.560 at the nation state level, which will bring us to 64 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:34.400 your article presently. 65 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:35.759 But I don't agree. 66 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:37.879 I mean, I get why they're doing it, naming it that, 67 00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:39.800 but I just want to I just want to put 68 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.000 in that point that normally I leave lucretia to be 69 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:44.000 punctilious about how we use these terms. 70 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.439 Right, Okay, So before you go on with substance here, 71 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:50.039 I just want to tell you John, John kind of 72 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:51.840 got a little mixed up on the time and was 73 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:55.919 unavailable to start at our scheduled time. And in the 74 00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:00.319 meantime I finished an entire bottle of scott Watch and 75 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:02.400 I'm on the second one and that's. 76 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:06.759 Oh yes, yeah, bottle. Let's see it. Well, I didn't 77 00:04:06.800 --> 00:04:10.439 Steve get you, Steve, get your camera ready, because I got. 78 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:13.280 For the camera. I get a better thing for camera. 79 00:04:13.360 --> 00:04:15.599 I have a new I have a better one. Because 80 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:18.360 can you see it? This is. 81 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:22.240 It's the it's not focusing in very well? Oh there 82 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:24.720 it is. Okay, hold on a second. That is the 83 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:29.240 maybe it is that is the that's the kind of tower. 84 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:31.279 Oh come on, John, that. 85 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:38.319 Is the Knokotomy tower. Advent calendar. That is Hans Screwber 86 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:42.199 descending down to know it's fine, it's working fine, okay, yeah. 87 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:48.319 Yeah, really the calendar is an event calendar. Yes, it's wonderful. 88 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:54.519 So today is the seventeenth on the Advent. Yes, So anyway, John, 89 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:57.839 it's your fault if I'm over the top because you 90 00:04:57.959 --> 00:04:59.560 were a little bit delayed. 91 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:03.480 What about all the other podcast episodes, That's not your fault. 92 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:05.439 I do for those. 93 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:07.560 I'm knocking back some talent. 94 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:10.360 Actually, they have three whiskies. I had the one I finished, 95 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:12.839 then this fourteen year old, and then just in case 96 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.800 you I always get accused of not being an American enough. 97 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:20.079 And this is a This one I just opened is 98 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:24.279 actually aged in bourbon barrels. But this one, I don't 99 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:26.360 know if I've ever had this before. You can't see 100 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:29.399 it now. It's Hoot and young you guys know who 101 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:29.759 that is. 102 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:31.879 No, it is. 103 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.199 It is Hoot, the real Hoot from black Hawk Down 104 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.800 And he has this is his all right, teen year 105 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:46.319 old barrel proof bourbon. And he also, I guess, sells cigars, 106 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:47.600 but I'm not much of a cigar. 107 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:49.959 Well, it's just like those guys who sell the coffee. 108 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.600 I can't remember what it's called, like fifteen coffee. 109 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:54.600 Black rifle coffee. 110 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:57.000 Yeah, why didn't they just call it ar fifteen coffee? 111 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.399 And anything I don't get is these drones in New Jersey. 112 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.399 Everyone's freaking out. I understand, Like I grew up in 113 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:06.480 that part of the world. I can't believe that these 114 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:10.199 drones flying over overhead, that people just aren't shooting down 115 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:13.120 with the AR fifteens. I were like, how are they 116 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:15.319 really own? 117 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.120 AR fifteen's are not allowed there. 118 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:21.839 New Jersey in Pennsylvania they are. We can shoot them by. 119 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:23.759 Them over Arizona and see what happens. 120 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:26.279 I know. This is why I don't understand people how 121 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:29.360 people not shot these down. Ukrainians shoot them down all 122 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:29.759 the time. 123 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.079 I have some theories, a couple of theories about the 124 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.600 drones that I want to want to put up second, well, 125 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:39.800 except that we're all teed up for John's article, because 126 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:42.800 since you mentioned Diehard and John mcclan, I want to 127 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.959 say John, to you, welcome to the party pal as 128 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:49.439 the client says in the movie, because you sent to 129 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:52.879 us your article for the Cimatas Institute, their brand new site. 130 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.040 By the way, it looks very nice on what's this thing. 131 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:59.639 Called Challenges Global Challenges to American Constitutionalism? 132 00:06:59.759 --> 00:06:59.879 Right? 133 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:02.839 Yes, And I'm all for this because I'm thinking, yeah, 134 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:05.759 but then you know what happened, John is about five 135 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:10.040 paragraphs in both Lucretian and I started to choke because 136 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:12.800 what it reveals is is you're not simply a positivist, 137 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:14.439 you're also a closet progressive. 138 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:16.560 No law. 139 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:17.639 What do you mean by that? 140 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.600 Well, I don't want to nit pick too much, except 141 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:23.839 the you have a paragraph that includes the sentence, and 142 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:25.959 you talk about some of those new deal in earlier 143 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:29.439 cases like Hammer vy Dagenheart that was the child labor case. 144 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.319 And then check your poultry a nine zero decision, by 145 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:35.240 the way, that's still good luck. And then your next 146 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:37.800 sentence is constitutional law had failed to keep up with 147 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:39.439 the demands of the twentieth century. 148 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:43.480 Oh okay, with no evidence whatsoever. 149 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:50.160 What I mean that seems to me like you somebody 150 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:52.279 got into your computer and hacked you and put in 151 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:53.360 some unsound ideas. 152 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:56.480 Oh, I mean, I think the circumstances changed, and so 153 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:58.319 I think the court was too narrow. 154 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:01.879 Well, stay, commerce, let me let me give you. 155 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:05.240 Well, that's why they had the confrontation, because they they 156 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:08.079 constricted the government's powers too much. I'm not saying they 157 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:10.279 should have said they've done now, which is the powers 158 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:13.839 are limitless. Yeah, well, that means go too far in 159 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.519 trying to keep it to pre industrial revolution. 160 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:19.279 Let me get your first sentence of that paragraph out 161 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:21.480 for listeners, because I think it's equally important. You said, 162 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:26.279 the political branches and the judiciary reached a confrontation over 163 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:30.040 the constitution because the existing doctrine could not grapple the 164 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.080 effects of economic and social nationalization. 165 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:34.039 Uh. 166 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:37.840 I think that is a problematic formulation. I understand what's 167 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:42.960 behind it. But look, uh yeah, Okay, you were partially 168 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:46.120 redeem yourself by saying it's gone too far. I always 169 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.440 liked old Joe Sobrand's line about just imagine what Stalin 170 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:51.879 could have done if only he'd had a commerce clause 171 00:08:52.440 --> 00:08:55.639 because the commerce claus how's everything these days? 172 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:57.240 But look, I mean, I. 173 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.320 I don't want to get nipicking abut particular decisions. But 174 00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:05.519 like your view on Lockner, which sadly Lucretia agrees with, 175 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.279 I'm afraid I think you're way too making way too 176 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:13.120 many concessions to the progressive premises of the way the 177 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:14.279 constitutional law went. 178 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:14.840 That's all. 179 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:17.759 I just want to be a little more serious than that. 180 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:20.039 I don't want to talk about Lockner. I don't think 181 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:23.360 that's the point. The point is this, John, I don't 182 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.000 believe that constitutional law failed to keep up with the 183 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.759 demands of the twentieth century. I don't believe that we 184 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:35.519 needed a larger, more bureaucratic, expert driven federal government to 185 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:38.879 deal with the demands of the twentieth century. And what 186 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:40.600 I would go one step further, then we'll give you 187 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.240 an opportunity to defend yourself. I'll go one step further 188 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:46.639 and say, if that's your premise, then your conclusion is 189 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:51.480 also completely wrong that somehow we need a different constitutional 190 00:09:51.559 --> 00:09:55.159 law to deal with globalization. We didn't need a different 191 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:58.879 constitutional law, in my opinion, to deal with nationalization, and 192 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:01.240 we don't need a different one to deal with globalization 193 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.919 because human nature hasn't changed. And the basic This is 194 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:10.720 where your refusal to understand natural law gets you in trouble. 195 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:15.279 The basic principles of the Constitution are rooted in their 196 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:19.559 understanding of an unchanging human nature, and human beings are 197 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:22.759 no different today than they were in seventeen eighty seven. 198 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:24.240 That's my argument. 199 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:26.759 I don't see what human nature actually has to do 200 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:30.200 with my argument. It's so Here's the point is that 201 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:37.200 the Supreme Court doctrine leading up through the big confrontation 202 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:41.399 with FDR was that much of the economy could not 203 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:44.200 be regulated by the federal government through the Commerce Clause. 204 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:47.080 I just think that was mistaken. I think because the 205 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:51.000 economy changed at the time of the founding. Yeahs, you 206 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:55.159 know most economics, most was regional and even within a state. 207 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.879 But by the time of the Great Depression, you know, 208 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:01.440 a lot of the economy. That's what I mean, it's nationalized. 209 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:04.519 Products are crossing borders. 210 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:05.200 All the time. 211 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.919 And so the Court I think was wrong in saying 212 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:11.159 as it did in Hammer versus Dagonhart or are these 213 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:14.519 cases that you know, we're still going to infuse the 214 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:19.840 rules of the pre Industrial Revolution commerce clause when the 215 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.679 country is stitched together into one giant market. I don't 216 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:24.879 see what that has to do with human nature at all. 217 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:27.919 This is just a description of the how the economy changed. 218 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.399 May I see the commerce clause follows it. Yeah, but 219 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:31.919 it's a Scott's human nature. 220 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:35.360 It has everything to do with human nature. So the 221 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:41.639 commerce clause, the interstate commerce clause as the founders envisioned it, 222 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.960 leaving intrast state most commerce actually to the states to regulate. 223 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:52.080 Was because they believed that closer to home was where 224 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:56.159 it was necessary to make laws that dealt with things 225 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:00.240 like economic issues. Tell me it, just give me one 226 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:06.919 example of where it wouldn't be better for states to 227 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:11.519 make laws dealing with the things happening intrast state and 228 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:17.679 circumscribing to a very great extent, interstate commerce powers under Congress, 229 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:22.240 because Congress has misused those powers. Congress has used those power, 230 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.799 those specific lines in the Constitution, to grandize power to themselves, 231 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:28.879 to extend it to things it was never intended to be. 232 00:12:29.559 --> 00:12:32.519 That's what Madison warns about in Federalist number fifty one 233 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.720 forty seven through fifty one. That's why human nature matters, 234 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:38.399 because if you give that power to Congress, it's going 235 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.120 to abuse it, and it did. And now if you 236 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:44.639 give that power to a global government, they'll abuse it, 237 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:45.159 and they did. 238 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:45.519 Put it. 239 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:48.559 Hold on between put aside the global stuff for a second. 240 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:52.320 The question is who's going to be more abusive towards 241 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:55.720 the national economy, Congress or the States. Is you can't 242 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:58.759 just say Congress abuses the power. If the question is 243 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:01.840 do states abuse it more? I would say that the 244 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:05.120 bigger threat at that time was from saying, oh, we're 245 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:08.279 just going to have intrastate regulation of the economy when 246 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.399 most products that we buy and sell right now don't 247 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:13.639 come from within our same states. I would bet actually 248 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.000 there's very few products that you buy or services that 249 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.519 you use that involve no interstate activity at all. Right, Like, 250 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:24.080 so you're you know, Lucretia's, and I guess you admitted 251 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.919 you're in Arizona. I don't know if that, but mysterious 252 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:29.799 Lucretia's in Arizona. How many products do you actually buy 253 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.320 are wholly made and only traverse Arizona. 254 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.200 Well, it's an unfair questioning for me because I buy 255 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.360 a lot of things here, because I buy farm fresh 256 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:40.279 and you know, that sort of thing, because I don't 257 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:43.159 want I don't want the kind of crap that is 258 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.360 sold on the national food market. But I get that 259 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:49.919 your point is well taken. But my argument is this, 260 00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:55.600 so what if my so this is the one the 261 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:58.480 famous thing I do with my students I talk about 262 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:00.320 and I know I've told you this before on my 263 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:04.360 my early criminal career, bootlegging margarine to my grandparents in 264 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:11.639 Minnesota where they could not they could not buy margin 265 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.039 margin in the state of Ara of Minnesota because it 266 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:16.840 was a dairy state. And believe it or not, for 267 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.320 some reason, I was not a dairy state. They grow 268 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.320 pigs there. Anyway, we would take cases of bluebonnet margarine 269 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:26.159 to my grandparents. Why they wanted it, I don't know, 270 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.919 but that's what we did. Why because the legislature of 271 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:35.279 Minnesota was was, you know, tyrannized over them. Yeah, exactly. 272 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:39.960 But guess we're no, I'm exactly saying the opposite. They 273 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:43.320 knew that would happen. That's fine. We know that there's 274 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:47.720 no way to get around lobbyists and protectionism, and you know, 275 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:51.039 the whole argument of federalists ten but the but the 276 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:55.080 beauty of a federal system is that a you could move. 277 00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:59.519 It's easier to change legislative policy at the state level 278 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:01.480 than it is at the federal level. There's all these 279 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:04.919 arguments that say you're never going to have perfection. The 280 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:08.799 question is which ways better putting power in the hands 281 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.399 of a federal government that creates a nationwide policy that 282 00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:16.720 nobody can get around, or allowing special interests to dominate 283 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:21.320 a state government. But there are lots more alternatives to 284 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:25.000 undoing the tyranny of those lobbyists or those interests at 285 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:27.759 the state government than there are the national So you're. 286 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.000 Saying we shouldn't have a unified national market in the 287 00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.519 United States. I think it's actually one of the great 288 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.559 achievements I think the Constitution is to create a single 289 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.039 national market where you can buy and sell products relatively 290 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:44.159 free from local protectionism. I mean, that's just that is, 291 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:47.120 it's not just America. That's a great benefit wherever it's 292 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.639 been achieved. I mean, the larger than the internet sales. 293 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:51.559 I'm not done. 294 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:55.600 Like, the larger the market is, the more standardization you have, 295 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:59.879 the better the economy will be. I'm not saying that's perfect. 296 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.240 Obviously the federal government has used this power sometimes to 297 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:06.799 go too far. But it's a bigger economic failure to 298 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:10.720 have states that under my national market and favor protectionism. 299 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:13.639 That's why the yearpe Union has done so well. Now 300 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:16.559 they again they went too far, but when they created 301 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:19.720 just a single European market, that was way better than 302 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:21.960 but the constant trade flights they used to have. And 303 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:23.559 I think that's true the United States too. 304 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.080 Of course, the two examples to just give is our 305 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:30.200 government going too far and the European Union government has 306 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.840 gone too far are both powerful data points that centralized 307 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.240 government will always go too far. Now, was the old 308 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.480 commerce clause jurisprudence that you're criticizing here, was that an 309 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:42.759 effective bulwark against it the way it would play out 310 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.919 in cases now here. I'm a little skull by the 311 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.399 way you're argu about a unified market. I'll just mention 312 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.759 for listeners. That's essentially the argument of Michael Greeb is 313 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:55.080 terrific but very dense book, The Upside Down Constitution, right, is, 314 00:16:56.120 --> 00:16:58.200 on the one hand, we have national power through the 315 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.519 commerce clause jurisprudence, and we have given in too much 316 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:05.039 to special interests in carsualization by states because we got 317 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.759 rid of the federal common law under the what was 318 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:09.039 the case Erie Railroad v. 319 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.519 Tompkins, Right. You may or may not agree with that 320 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.759 aspect of his argument. I don't agree with. 321 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:15.839 That part of his agreement. I don't. I don'tgree with 322 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:18.440 that part of his argument about the the I mean, 323 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.200 I think that's tearing federalism national pal too far out. 324 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:26.960 Was the danger that the national market is like I mean, 325 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:31.200 I'm speechless again, I'm speechless, But like a national if 326 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:33.720 not is one of the greatest public goods that nation 327 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.119 states provide, why would you want to break it up? 328 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.359 Just I don't see it that way. I don't see 329 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:38.720 it that way. 330 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:43.359 I mean, just it's just like a big basic thing 331 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:46.319 of public economics is the broader you can make a 332 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.400 free trade area, the better it is for the economy. 333 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:53.519 I wait a minute, it's better than it was before 334 00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:56.279 free trade, but it was closer to free trade than 335 00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:58.799 was before. We don't have perfect free trade, but the 336 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:02.279 unit units dates is close to. You know, it's almost 337 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.839 as close to a pure free market as anywhere in 338 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:06.960 the world. And it's been a huge fag for us. 339 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:08.400 You've just double. 340 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:14.240 The drones from out of space taken over already. I mean, 341 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:15.319 I can't believe this. 342 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:17.039 Oh, by the way, John, you're. 343 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:19.160 About the benefits of a national market. 344 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.000 You've just doubly contradicted yourself. 345 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:24.039 Because, first of all, John, you and speechless should not 346 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:27.839 ever go in the same sentence together, as you've just demonstrated. Second, 347 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.240 the beauty of a unified national market is in part 348 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:35.559 why the court in Hammervy Dagenhardt said, you know, we 349 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.720 can't be striking down child labor laws. I would interfere 350 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:41.759 with interstate commerce. Now I think that ruling was wrongheaded. 351 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:44.799 I think the best argument so the point is is 352 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:47.079 that the constitutional power was there, and the court makes 353 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.400 mistakes sometimes. I think one of the best arguments about 354 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:53.079 this was made way back in nineteen oh seven by 355 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:56.680 Albert Beveridge, the smartest of the progressives, and he held 356 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:00.400 forth for three days in the Senate about why child 357 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:02.400 this is before Hammer. By the way, the Hammer case 358 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:04.960 came up, So which is what nineteen eighteen I think, 359 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:05.319 wasn't it? 360 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:07.319 Or something like that, Steve, you're losing it. 361 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.079 No, I'll get to it if you'll be patient, please. 362 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.599 He had a whole lot of arguments, very interesting, drawing 363 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.279 from as far back as John Marshall, from lots of 364 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:20.799 particular cases on the federal and state level to argue 365 00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:26.680 why federal child labor restrictions were constitutional. The most powerful one, 366 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.799 I think was the observation he says, hey, wait a minute, 367 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:34.720 the Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate foreign commerce 368 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:38.839 and products from foreign governments. And he points to examples 369 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:41.960 of where we'd ban certain products during the yellow fever outbreak. 370 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.200 I'm not sure why that was the reason for it, 371 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:47.559 but and he says, how is that power any different 372 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:52.680 from a regular interstate commerce, including products made by child labor. 373 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:54.880 I think that's not a bad argument. The court didn't 374 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.440 buy it, but the arguments were there. And maybe so 375 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:00.920 being a little equivocal here would have been better off 376 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:04.839 if we followed those moderate progressives rather than giving into 377 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.279 the Supreme Court in the thirties surrendering completely. 378 00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:09.000 No whatever you want to with that. 379 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.839 No, No, I think, Steve, you agree with me shockingly. 380 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:15.759 But look so I think, I think, but so I 381 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:19.519 think some things that the Supreme Court struck down were 382 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:25.000 correctly held to beyond constitutional, like say social security there's something. 383 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:29.240 But the regulation of the economy as it proceeded, I 384 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.079 would say through the fifties. I think a lot of things. 385 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:33.839 We think where they went too far. We're not all 386 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.559 blessed by the Supreme Court as part of nationalization in 387 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:39.480 the thirties and forties, so they we're talking about, like, 388 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:44.720 you know, basic standards. You're regulating workplace, regulating production, regulating 389 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:47.319 product quality, things like things that were there. You need 390 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:49.960 to have a uniform standard in the country. I think 391 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.000 where they went too far was then the here's Steve's 392 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.359 going to love this, the Clean Air and Clean Water 393 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:58.680 Acts and the environmental Wause of the seventies. This is 394 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:01.039 that's what you're the late six season seventies is when 395 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:03.839 they took that commerce Clause power and then used it 396 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:06.440 to try to achieve ends which were not really economic 397 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:08.839 and we can we can, Everhart, we could. You know, 398 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:12.480 the the great contest about this was about the sixty 399 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:16.039 four Civil Rights Act because right four, So that's but 400 00:21:16.200 --> 00:21:19.440 that's not that's not what I'm talking I'm talking about 401 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:23.200