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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 5: program True Murder. The most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 5: history and the authors have written about them. On January tenth,
Speaker 5: twenty thirteen, Kendrick Johnson's parents reported their seventeen year old
Speaker 5: son missing the next day at Kendrick's school, Lounged High
Speaker 5: School in Valdosta, Georgia. In the gym, students saw what
Speaker 5: they thought was a pair of socks sticking out of
Speaker 5: a gym mat, but when they approached, they told investigators
Speaker 5: they realized it was a body. According to Lounge County
Speaker 5: Share of Chris Prine, Kendrick Johnson died while reaching into
Speaker 5: an upright gym matt in the old gym on January tenth,
Speaker 5: trying to retrieve a sneaker that had fallen inside. Instead,
Speaker 5: Kendrick fell in, couldn't get out and smothered to death
Speaker 5: from positional affixiation. The original autopsy report ruled Johnson's death
Speaker 5: an accident, stating that the teen suffocated while getting stuck
Speaker 5: in a gym matt while reaching for a sneaker. However,
Speaker 5: Johnson's parents weren't convinced there was an accident, and they
Speaker 5: got a court order to have their son's body exhumed.
Speaker 5: A second autopsy report showed the teen's death was not
Speaker 5: an accident, stating that Johnson had sustained non accidental blunt
Speaker 5: trauma During an autopsy. Eternal organs are removed and examined
Speaker 5: before return for burial. But when the private pathologist who
Speaker 5: conducted the second autopsy on Johnson open up the teen's remains,
Speaker 5: the brain, heart, lungs, liver, another viscera were missing. Every
Speaker 5: organ from the pelvis to the skull was gone and
Speaker 5: had been replaced with newspaper. Federal prosecutor now Michael Moore
Speaker 5: is reopening the case. The book, the case that we're
Speaker 5: featuring this evening. The story that we're talking about is
Speaker 5: the Kendrick Johnson murder. With my special guest, Fred Rosen
Speaker 5: and Bou Webster. Welcome back to the program, gentlemen, Fred
Speaker 5: Rosen and Bo Webster, by pleasure, sir.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much for having us well.
Speaker 5: Thank you. This is an incredible story and I'm glad
Speaker 5: to be involved in any way, shape or form. As
Speaker 5: I had thought when I first was no fight of
Speaker 5: this story with from Fred Rosen. This is an incredible case.
Speaker 5: That's now I think I really do believe it's it's
Speaker 5: gaining the national attention that it's so really does deserve.
Speaker 3: So let's get to.
Speaker 5: A question I think that is important to this. Maybe
Speaker 5: we start off with you first, Bow Webster, tell us
Speaker 5: what your background is and how you came to be
Speaker 5: involved with this particular case, the Kendrick Johnson case.
Speaker 6: Well, my name is bo Webster. I'm a private investigator
Speaker 6: in Florida, and my name affirm is Webster's Investigative Services
Speaker 6: out of Tallahassee, Florida, and back the first part of February,
Speaker 6: I was called by the family attorney to come to
Speaker 6: Valdosta and look at the case to see if I
Speaker 6: was interested in maybe pursuing the investigation. My background is
Speaker 6: law enforcement in South Florida in the Fort Lauderdale area
Speaker 6: for years, and I've had my private investigator's license and
Speaker 6: agency for the past eight years, where we do all
Speaker 6: types of investigative work, a lot of high profile criminal
Speaker 6: cases along with large murder cases. I went to Valdosta
Speaker 6: and actually met the attorney representing the family and met
Speaker 6: mister and missus Johnson at that time, and came on
Speaker 6: board as a investigator to try to determine what exactly
Speaker 6: happened to their seventeen year old son, Kendrick Johnson.
Speaker 5: Okay, the same question for you, Fred. Not everyone knows
Speaker 5: your reputation as an author, but tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about your background and how you came to be
Speaker 5: involved with this case and why.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm a true crime author. I've been a true
Speaker 3: crime author for about the last twenty years. Actually part
Speaker 3: of that, I was a columnist for the Arts and
Speaker 3: Leisure section of the New York Times, and I worked
Speaker 3: on a number of murder cases over the years, probably
Speaker 3: twenty some odd throughout the United States. And I met
Speaker 3: Bell Webster, a gentleman from Tallahassee, in a courtroom in
Speaker 3: twenty eleventh February during the trial of Gary Hilton. I
Speaker 3: was working on a book called Traales of Death, which
Speaker 3: was about Hilton, who was a serial killer and he
Speaker 3: killed people three three different states, and Bow and I
Speaker 3: sort of hit it off and we continued to talk
Speaker 3: and to each other. And sometime around oh, i'd say
Speaker 3: April of this year, Bo called and told me about
Speaker 3: this young man who had been discovered in the old
Speaker 3: gym at this high school in Valdosta. I didn't even
Speaker 3: know where Valdosta was then, and you know, I'm more
Speaker 3: familiar which is going down the I ninety five Carter
Speaker 3: on the east coast of the United States, you know,
Speaker 3: and just going you know, through the you know, the
Speaker 3: coastal area. And Bo told me that he this boy
Speaker 3: had been discovered rowed up in a gym that dead,
Speaker 3: and I took one look at the photograph, which looked
Speaker 3: like his face had been at the time, we thought
Speaker 3: that he had been the face had been beaten in
Speaker 3: We since discovered there was other damage as a result
Speaker 3: of what had occurred, but in any case, it didn't
Speaker 3: make much sense to me. And quite frankly, you know,
Speaker 3: I have a child, and as do most of the
Speaker 3: people working on this case. And as soon as I realized,
Speaker 3: you know, that the appearance at that point didn't have
Speaker 3: any other resources as far as anybody to investigate from them,
Speaker 3: with exception of course, mister Webster, I said, I'm in
Speaker 3: you know, and then what I did was I got
Speaker 3: someone else involved who I work with, and I started
Speaker 3: investigating and working with Bow and I went down to
Speaker 3: Georgia back in June. BO and I then went to
Speaker 3: see one of the people involved in the case, who
Speaker 3: was a paramedic who was the first on the scene.
Speaker 3: And that's when I knew that this thing was pretty
Speaker 3: serious because that paramedic, when Bou tried to talk to him,
Speaker 3: was extremely scared. I've never seen an individual as scared
Speaker 3: as this guy was, and I knew something was up,
Speaker 3: and so I just stayed on it with both.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit more about that conversation with
Speaker 5: the paramedic of please.
Speaker 3: Me me and BO, well, I'll tell you that basically, well,
Speaker 3: basically what happened was we went out to talk to
Speaker 3: this paramedic who BO had identified through his investigation as
Speaker 3: the first individual in the scene, and he had some
Speaker 3: other information and he just it was just basically going
Speaker 3: to be a basic you know, what did you see,
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. And he came out of his
Speaker 3: house and I actually I just wrote about this, it's something.
Speaker 3: And he came out of his house. He was holding
Speaker 3: his son and when Bo explained that he was there
Speaker 3: to talk about Kendrick Johnson. This guys, this guy frows.
Speaker 3: I mean, he got and his voice got. It was
Speaker 3: very his voice trembled, and he was scared, and he
Speaker 3: wouldn't talk to us. He was very bright. He just said,
Speaker 3: you know, go talk to the hospital that I worked
Speaker 3: for as something of that nature. He went back in
Speaker 3: his house, closed the door, and both turned to me
Speaker 3: and said, Fred, these people are scared. And I, you know,
Speaker 3: I sort of looked around me, and you know, I
Speaker 3: was a bit paranoid at that moment, to be honest
Speaker 3: with you, Dan, And that's exactly the way that I
Speaker 3: felt the entire time I was in Valdosta, which is
Speaker 3: like somebody was watching me. And I'm convinced now that
Speaker 3: there are individuals there that we're keeping track of us.
Speaker 3: And I don't think we're being paranoid about it because
Speaker 3: we're out to get to the truth and there are
Speaker 3: people who don't want the truth to be out.
Speaker 5: Now, for all those in the audience that you don't
Speaker 5: know about this case as of yet, because we have
Speaker 5: a pretty significant international audience, maybe we can, maybe one
Speaker 5: of you can go through the official story as it
Speaker 5: unfolded in terms of what the again, what characters said,
Speaker 5: what and when and what exactly did they impart to
Speaker 5: the public. So we're talking about the sheriff and we're
Speaker 5: talking about the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. So maybe Fred,
Speaker 5: you can tell us what or or Bo, what exactly
Speaker 5: was the report in the beginning? Again, Bo, you knew
Speaker 5: about this story first, so maybe you can tell us
Speaker 5: what you first knew and what was the official line
Speaker 5: and who were the players, the characters that were imparting
Speaker 5: this information to the media.
Speaker 6: Well, when I when I started the investigation, naturally you
Speaker 6: know the victim, Kendrick Johnson, seventeen year old black male student,
Speaker 6: was he went missing January tenth from his third or
Speaker 6: fourth block, which would be somewhere between one thirty pm
Speaker 6: and three o'clock on Thursday afternoon, which would be the
Speaker 6: tenth of January, and he was last seen in the
Speaker 6: hallway of the school and entering the gymnasium, which is
Speaker 6: the secondary gymnasium. Because they have they have a newer,
Speaker 6: large facility that they play most of most of their
Speaker 6: basketball games and any other kind of activities are in
Speaker 6: the newer complex. So this is called like a secondary gym,
Speaker 6: and there's surveillance cameras in the gymnasium as well as
Speaker 6: you know, the surroundings of the school. And he never
Speaker 6: reported to his third or fourth block, so he was missing,
Speaker 6: and he went that evening missing, never came home, which
Speaker 6: was very unusual for him. According to the parents, they
Speaker 6: would always have contact with Kendrick, and he would call
Speaker 6: if he was running late and let them know that
Speaker 6: maybe he was staying after for a basketball game or
Speaker 6: you know, some other activity at school. And he didn't
Speaker 6: show up at home later that night, and the parents
Speaker 6: were concerned, naturally, and three o'clock in the morning, four
Speaker 6: o'clock in the morning, you know, it's still a school night,
Speaker 6: and he's still missing, and no word from Kendrick. And
Speaker 6: so then there was a missing report made the next morning,
Speaker 6: and Kendrick's body was found around between nine thirty and
Speaker 6: ten o'clock on Friday morning by students and the faculty
Speaker 6: members of the high school. And that's when it's just
Speaker 6: it's the strangest case that I think I've ever worked
Speaker 6: in investigation or in law enforcement, where there's just so much,
Speaker 6: so much evidence that was never collected and gathered and
Speaker 6: the Sheriff's department naturally was notified immediately that there was
Speaker 6: a body found in the gym and that the body
Speaker 6: was found vertically wrapped up inside of a wrestling mat,
Speaker 6: and that's what alarmed everyone, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 6: the Sheriff's apartment becomes involved in an investigation and Georgia
Speaker 6: Bureau of Investigation was notified to respond as well. And
Speaker 6: generally the coroner is notified immediately when there's a death
Speaker 6: or a or a victim in a crime, and the
Speaker 6: coroner was not notified until later on in the day,
Speaker 6: which was maybe a round between four and four point
Speaker 6: thirty in the afternoon, which is very odd.
Speaker 5: In the court.
Speaker 3: Go ahead, well, if I had what happens in terms
Speaker 3: of the players, is this within hours? Those you know
Speaker 3: summarized it of course extremely well. But within hours the
Speaker 3: family is told by Stride Jones, who's one of the
Speaker 3: investigators working for Show of Chris Prime, that there is
Speaker 3: no evidence of foul play, and which is a very
Speaker 3: strange thing to say when you're just starting an investigation.
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Speaker 3: That's that's my personal opinion on this. I've never heard
Speaker 3: of anything like this, and I concur with Bo that
Speaker 3: this is the strangest case that I certainly ever worked.
Speaker 3: And then within maybe forty eight hours, with only the
Speaker 3: preliminary autopsy results in, not the completed autopsy results, Sheriff
Speaker 3: Chris Prime tells the media that Kendrick died by reaching
Speaker 3: into this match. And it's a huge mat It's like
Speaker 3: it's at least six feet tall, and he reached in,
Speaker 3: he lost his balance, he fell in, he couldn't get out,
Speaker 3: and he was in such a position that he couldn't breathe,
Speaker 3: and he died and that's it, end of story. And
Speaker 3: at the same time, Wes Taylor, who is the superintendent
Speaker 3: of the school district, sends out a press release saying, oh,
Speaker 3: this is an awful thing. You know, we hope that
Speaker 3: the family will get over this. You know, now it's
Speaker 3: time tomorrow, et cetera, et cetera. And it's like everybody
Speaker 3: just wanted to sort of like push it aside and
Speaker 3: wipe it away. Except we got one little problem then, okay,
Speaker 3: which is that the clothing that Kendrick is wearing disappears.
Speaker 3: His the matt disappears. As you pointed out. By the
Speaker 3: time the body is presented to doctor Anderson, doctor William
Speaker 3: Anderson in Orlando for the second autopsy, the organs have disappeared,
Speaker 3: and to date the surveillance video has disappeared. So what
Speaker 3: do you make of all of that? That's you know,
Speaker 3: what do you make of all of that? And at
Speaker 3: the same time, the most important element I think of
Speaker 3: this is this, the jurge of Bureau of Investigation does
Speaker 3: the autopsy. The results don't come out until May the second,
Speaker 3: and they claim again positional asphyxia. Except this one little problem.
Speaker 3: Positional asphixia means would mean that the boy's lungs would
Speaker 3: have filled with fluid as a result of suffocation. His
Speaker 3: lungs in the report weighed the normal amount, which means
Speaker 3: he didn't die from positionally six years That is a
Speaker 3: key to understanding this whole thing. And even though this
Speaker 3: doctor comes out with this report, the GBI refuses to
Speaker 3: take a look at it. They refuse to review what
Speaker 3: the doctor has done or their own findings and set
Speaker 3: as the sheriff and they just want to close the
Speaker 3: whole thing down and say, hey, you know, he just
Speaker 3: fell in. Oh, and I might add one other thing.
Speaker 3: We have an email from a GBI executive in which
Speaker 3: this individual says, oh, he wasn't reaching for a sue,
Speaker 3: he was reaching for a book. They can't even get
Speaker 3: their story straight, which is what I wrote him in
Speaker 3: Ebony dot com, where I've been reporting on this. They
Speaker 3: can't get their stories straight. Dan, it's it's it's it's
Speaker 3: in some ways it is mind boggling. But they can
Speaker 3: get away with it because the dealing with the authorities
Speaker 3: in Georgia. And you know, I'm pretty straightforward in some
Speaker 3: of the in what I say, it's like walking into
Speaker 3: the nineteenth century, Okay, people in the most The thing
Speaker 3: that I really need to emphasize is this, if you're
Speaker 3: African American and you're in Georgia, you're in most places
Speaker 3: you're a second class citizen, and especially in a place
Speaker 3: like Valdosta, you're a second class citizen, even though this
Speaker 3: is the twenty first century, and people are scared. People
Speaker 3: are scared, and they're scared of the cops, and they're
Speaker 3: scared of talking, and of course that makes our job
Speaker 3: that much tougher. And now I'll just shut up in
Speaker 3: my boat tore for the rest of the show.
Speaker 6: And this is bo the inside the core of that mat.
Speaker 6: The mat is about six foot or a little taller
Speaker 6: than that, but the inside core that mat is around
Speaker 6: fourteen inches in diameter, and Kendrick's shoulders from tip to
Speaker 6: tip were nineteen or a little over nineteen inches. I
Speaker 6: tried myself, the father, Kenneth tried. We both made attempts
Speaker 6: to try to get our bodies inside of the core
Speaker 6: that mat, and we were unsuccessful. We were not able
Speaker 6: to do it. So that alone tells you that, I mean,
Speaker 6: there's just no way that he could conceivably just push
Speaker 6: himself down or jump into the inside of that mat
Speaker 6: and die of affixiation to retrieve what is said to
Speaker 6: be either tennis shoes or a book. There are two
Speaker 6: different stories to that. And he you know, he was
Speaker 6: a triathlete, so he was in great shape. According to
Speaker 6: his dad, he was very strong and able to take
Speaker 6: care of himself. So even if he was inside of
Speaker 6: a mat, he would have been able to knock the
Speaker 6: mat down and get out of the mat. But it
Speaker 6: just doesn't make any sense. And probably a couple months
Speaker 6: after I started the investigate, well immediately after I started
Speaker 6: the investigation, I started asking for the surveillance tapes, which
Speaker 6: was never to this moment, has never been given to me.
Speaker 6: And I think the family maybe just got some of
Speaker 6: the surveillance tapes in the last couple few weeks. But
Speaker 6: I asked to go into the secondary gym where the
Speaker 6: body was found. Weeks after I began this investigation, and
Speaker 6: the family attorney and mister and Missus Johnson and myself
Speaker 6: went to the gym so that we could go inside
Speaker 6: of the secondary gym, take photographs, take measurements, look to
Speaker 6: see where all the surveillance cameras are placed, to get
Speaker 6: a good idea of what the inside of that gym
Speaker 6: looks like. And we were told at the front door
Speaker 6: of the administration office that your investigator is not welcome
Speaker 6: here today. And I mean it really floored me and
Speaker 6: alarmed me that you know what's going on here? Why
Speaker 6: can't we go into the gym? And I was turned away,
Speaker 6: and I was told that I expect to call within
Speaker 6: a week that I could return and then go back
Speaker 6: into the gym, And that call was never made. And
Speaker 6: back probably two weeks after school broke for summer session,
Speaker 6: for summer break, that's when I had received notice that
Speaker 6: we could go into the gym and take a look
Speaker 6: at everything, take our measurements, take photographs into the secondary
Speaker 6: gym at that time, which was months after the fact,
Speaker 6: and it's I mean, it's just very frustrating to me,
Speaker 6: and I know how frustrating it is to that family
Speaker 6: to you know, to have to go through this. They
Speaker 6: were allowed to go in the gym that day, but
Speaker 6: I mean by that time, there's no evidence whatsoever probably
Speaker 6: to gather and all the information and all the evidence
Speaker 6: that we've asked for in all these months, what is
Speaker 6: it nine or ten actually ten months now, all the
Speaker 6: evidence is not available. It's either been destroyed or it's
Speaker 6: been held somewhere. But I have not seen any of
Speaker 6: the evidence, the matt, the clothing, anything that would pertain to,
Speaker 6: you know, to Kendrick's body or any type of DNA
Speaker 6: that might have been gathered.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about the family, but the family has
Speaker 5: been has been adamant and dedicated to this cause. So
Speaker 5: once they've got the official explanation from authorities, they staged
Speaker 5: daily protest at the courthouse. They were instrumental in. They've
Speaker 5: now hired or attracted attorney Benjamin Crump, and as a result,
Speaker 5: they were successful in court getting to be able to
Speaker 5: exhume their son's body for a second autosy. So Fred
Speaker 5: tell us about that endeavor, that initiative to do that
Speaker 5: and what has resulted from that second autopsy report.
Speaker 3: Sure, let me let me just add one thing that
Speaker 3: as far as Ben Crump is concerned, Bo is being modest.
Speaker 3: Ben Crump was hard at Bo's recommendation because Bo knows
Speaker 3: mister Crump from Tallahassee. So he recommended that to the
Speaker 3: attorney who was representing the family, and that's how he
Speaker 3: came on board relatively recently. Now, what happened in terms
Speaker 3: of the of the second autopsy is that the family
Speaker 3: petitioned to disinter the body for a second autopsy. They
Speaker 3: were the petition was granted. And what makes that interesting
Speaker 3: is that the petition was granted on May the first,
Speaker 3: and that made headlines. At that point, there were very
Speaker 3: little and there was very little in the way of publicity.
Speaker 3: The following day and they second, the authorities stole the
Speaker 3: headlines back. That's when they released the results of the
Speaker 3: first door autopsy, where they claimed it was physicial asshixiation
Speaker 3: about six weeks later in the middle of June, and
Speaker 3: Bow could comment more on this because he was there.
Speaker 3: Kendrick's body was disinterred, you know, the vault placed on
Speaker 3: a flatbed truck taken to Orlando, Florida, where doctor William
Speaker 3: Anderson performed the second autopsy. When he body was presented
Speaker 3: to doctor Anderson, he you know, he opened up the body.
Speaker 3: That's when he discovered the organs were missing. But he
Speaker 3: did something that the first autopsy that had not been
Speaker 3: done at the first autopsy, and that was he dissected
Speaker 3: Kendrick's neck and he discovered a severe hemorrhage. And in
Speaker 3: his opinion, the boy got from one blow to the
Speaker 3: neck which caused his heart to stop. That is his opinion.
Speaker 3: And what again, what makes this interesting is that that
Speaker 3: is that second autopsy, the results are widely accepted within
Speaker 3: the African American community, though within the white community not
Speaker 3: not so much. So you have you have this this
Speaker 3: this uh economy going on, and you have and so,
Speaker 3: which makes it very very difficult to to get to
Speaker 3: the truth because for every step forward that we make
Speaker 3: in the investigation, somebody else will come back and say,
Speaker 3: you know, it's some sort of explanation, uh that that
Speaker 3: that the the second autopsy doesn't have any valid results
Speaker 3: for whatever reason. People had actually gone after doctor Anderson's
Speaker 3: reputation in order to discredit the results of the autopsy.
Speaker 3: But it was that autopsy that really we were waiting for.
Speaker 3: The results came in in September, and by that time,
Speaker 3: the US Attorney, Michael Jmore for the Middle District of Georgia,
Speaker 3: had received the report from the attorney representing the family,
Speaker 3: and he'd already started to review the materials. And I
Speaker 3: kid around with mister Borrow when I get him on
Speaker 3: the phone. Both actually met him a couple of times.
Speaker 3: I've only talked to him on the phone. But when
Speaker 3: I talked to him, I go, are you the only
Speaker 3: federal federal official who's earning his money? And he laughs
Speaker 3: and he's a really regular guy, and he is he
Speaker 3: is really concerned with getting to the truth, and so
Speaker 3: that set an autopsy is really what started to propel
Speaker 3: things forward and gates to gather some steam. As you
Speaker 3: pointed out regarding getting attention.
Speaker 6: Right, I'm sorry. The other the other Uh, the other
Speaker 6: thing that's so uh, I guess mind boggling and confusing
Speaker 6: Dan on this is that there uh you know, when
Speaker 6: the funeral arrangements were made for Kendrick, Uh, there were
Speaker 6: no he was heavily involved and very active in uh
Speaker 6: in all the sports programs football basketball at the high school.
Speaker 6: And UH when he was buried, UH, there were no
Speaker 6: no teams or no players at his funeral, which is
Speaker 6: very odd. I mean, it's it's just hard to understand. Uh.
Speaker 6: And then UH, when I was out doing the uh
Speaker 6: preliminary investigation and pounding the street every day talking to
Speaker 6: you know, witnesses and people that might be able to
Speaker 6: shed some light on and give any type of information
Speaker 6: that might be helpful, I would talk to faculty members
Speaker 6: and students, and the faculty members just said that they
Speaker 6: could not talk they are forbidden to talk to anyone
Speaker 6: pertaining to the investigation, and that I would have to
Speaker 6: go through their subordinates. There, you know, because they would
Speaker 6: they would stand a chance at losing their jobs, losing
Speaker 6: their retirement. So you know, when you've got people that
Speaker 6: probably know something and you can't talk to them because
Speaker 6: they're scared and they've been threatened, then you know, it's
Speaker 6: hard to conduct an investigation like that. I mean, they've
Speaker 6: even had they've even had faculty members I guess leave
Speaker 6: the school for whatever reason. But it's a sad thing because.
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Speaker 6: This family has just having to relive this for ten
Speaker 6: months off really eleven months now and with mister Michael Moore,
Speaker 6: the US attorney coming on board here last week when
Speaker 6: he announced that now the Department of Justice is on
Speaker 6: board and looking into it. That has been just a big,
Speaker 6: big help case. And he's just a great guy that
Speaker 6: you know, is looking for justice. And I have met
Speaker 6: with him on two different occasions and had meetings with
Speaker 6: he and his staff to present, you know, all the
Speaker 6: evidence pertaining to this case. And now they can go
Speaker 6: ahead and move forward and hopefully there's justice right around
Speaker 6: the corner.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I've been reading a lot of stuff
Speaker 5: online in the last little while. Like I say, this
Speaker 5: story is really gaining a lot of scheme CNN, CBSS
Speaker 5: and like I mentioned to you, four thousand comments just
Speaker 5: after one article. So but the thing is is that
Speaker 5: what they're saying in some of these articles is that
Speaker 5: there have been some suspects from the high school itself
Speaker 5: and another suspect from another school. And I wanted to
Speaker 5: mention this too, is that even Michael Moore has said
Speaker 5: that he has he's warning his jurisdiction is limited as
Speaker 5: a federal prosecutor, but he said, after lengthy review of
Speaker 5: evidence collected by authorities and the family's own investigation investigator,
Speaker 5: that sufficient bases exists to warrant a formal review of
Speaker 5: the facts. Now, for us folks that aren't so familiar
Speaker 5: with these kinds of things, tell us what exactly can
Speaker 5: potentially happen from this, What would be the likely outcome
Speaker 5: if he does this review? And again, is a review
Speaker 5: a reopening of the case, or what exactly is the
Speaker 5: review and what can the review actually lead to?
Speaker 3: Can I take that one?
Speaker 6: Certainly?
Speaker 3: Sure? Okay, First, when Michael uses it and I called him, sorry,
Speaker 3: I call him Michael, But it's just the way it is.
Speaker 3: You know, when you talk, like I said, when you
Speaker 3: talk to this guy, he's a regular guy. And when
Speaker 3: he when he's actually done, is opened an official investigation, Okay,
Speaker 3: and it's a federal investigation versus a county or state investigation.
Speaker 3: And what he can do is he can do one
Speaker 3: of three things. Well, he can charge basically in three
Speaker 3: different areas. One a civil rights violation, that is, Kendrick
Speaker 3: Johnson lost his life because he was African American and essentially.
Speaker 5: This is a hate crime.
Speaker 3: That's number one. And number two he can prosecute for
Speaker 3: if there is corruption on the part of state county agencies,
Speaker 3: he can bring some sort he can bring a criminal
Speaker 3: action against them for this. So if he finds out that,
Speaker 3: as we suspect that you have a conspiracy where you
Speaker 3: have county and state conspiring to obliterate the truth, just
Speaker 3: like they've obliterated the evidence, he can take action and
Speaker 3: prosecute in federal court. Now, the third thing he can
Speaker 3: do is he can use what is known as the
Speaker 3: Ricos statutes in the States, which originally were designed to
Speaker 3: prosecute the mob or the mafia, but have been used
Speaker 3: successfully to prosecute when you have a conspiracy exactly what
Speaker 3: we're talking about here, where you have a number of
Speaker 3: different agencies that get together and conspire to conceal the truth.
Speaker 3: And those agencies can be anything from police agencies, it
Speaker 3: could be it could be school agencies, it could be
Speaker 3: whatever it might be. But he follows that evidence, on
Speaker 3: the other hand, and so we get it. It's are
Speaker 3: you start you know, I look, it's it's historical really,
Speaker 3: because he has to make a decision about who has venue.
Speaker 3: Is it the state, is it the federal government, And
Speaker 3: he's got to go on the basis of what the
Speaker 3: evidence is. And a lot of the evidence that he
Speaker 3: is looking at is the evidence that bo has gathered,
Speaker 3: including identifying suspects. So what's happened as we speak is
Speaker 3: that mister Moore has gotten agents from the Federal Bureau
Speaker 3: of Investigation to come down to make and who he's
Speaker 3: met with, and then they would dispatch to Valdosta to
Speaker 3: begin their investigation and interviewing interested parties, and then that
Speaker 3: he'll take all of that information into account and make
Speaker 3: a decision about what he's going to do. How'd I do.
Speaker 6: Abouta that's exactly right now.
Speaker 5: The question I have is is that the second autopsy
Speaker 5: you said, has been challenged to a certain degree by
Speaker 5: some members of the community, obviously the police and the
Speaker 5: people that did the first autopsy, saying that the death
Speaker 5: can be attributed to the blunt force trauma and then
Speaker 5: the heart attack or the heart stopping. Wouldn't it be prudent,
Speaker 5: I guess to have their own investigator do their own autopsy?
Speaker 5: Or is that is that in the realm of possibility?
Speaker 5: Tell me about tell our audience about that.
Speaker 3: You want to take a.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean it's the second I mean we're talking
Speaker 6: about the second autopsy band performed, because you know, the
Speaker 6: body was transported to Orlando, and that's where doctor Anderson
Speaker 6: performed the second autopsy, and this conclusion was that, you know,
Speaker 6: there was trauma to the body and trauma to the
Speaker 6: right side of the neck and right side of the jaw.
Speaker 6: But there's uh, you've got you know, g b I
Speaker 6: and the local law enforcement agencies that I guess you
Speaker 6: know are connected with that first autopsy being in Macon, Georgia,
Speaker 6: and that's where you know, the conflict's been and that's
Speaker 6: where uh, the first initial autopsy, first autopsy comes back
Speaker 6: that there was uh, you know, natural causes as asphyxiation,
Speaker 6: and we all knew that that was not the case.
Speaker 6: I don't know if there's anything you want to add
Speaker 6: to that or not, but.
Speaker 5: The well I'm asking, I'm asking, what if that second
Speaker 5: a is is challenged at all, then would it make
Speaker 5: sense to have another autopsy done or is there even
Speaker 5: any ability in terms of I don't really know how
Speaker 5: the protocol for this, but what wouldn't that be a
Speaker 5: good start?
Speaker 3: Well, sure, because you're using you're using logic and you
Speaker 3: and you're but but see, it isn't that the first
Speaker 3: autopsy was challenged the first I mean, I'm sorry, it
Speaker 3: wasn't that the second autopsy was challenged by the authorities.
Speaker 3: They didn't they ever challenged it. They just said, we're
Speaker 3: not going to look at it. They dismissed it. They
Speaker 3: did never worked at him and and that, and they
Speaker 3: they're they're not being uh as as doctor Anderson said,
Speaker 3: how do you call yourself a scientist when you're not
Speaker 3: open And the answer is, I'm sorry, you're not a scientist.
Speaker 3: If if that's you know, if this is the way
Speaker 3: you're can act now in terms of doing a third
Speaker 3: or autopsy, Uh sure, I mean I understand exactly what
Speaker 3: you're saying. I don't know how practical that would be.
Speaker 3: But that's not but it's a relevant quite frankly, because
Speaker 3: it's not going to happen. The state is not interested
Speaker 3: in doing this. They are they're saying, hey, this ish
Speaker 3: it okay, and numbers significant members of the of the
Speaker 3: white community are backing up the state. So you know,
Speaker 3: it's stair autopsy, you know, to get a third opinion.
Speaker 6: I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't know, what do you think, bo, I don't
Speaker 3: think that's going to happen.
Speaker 6: I don't. I don't see that happening. I'd really be
Speaker 6: surprised if it does. But I don't see that happening
Speaker 6: at all. I think they've I think everyone knew from
Speaker 6: the first autopsy that that was not the case, and
Speaker 6: the second autopsy would reveal exactly what everyone thought what
Speaker 6: would happened and the results, and that was that there
Speaker 6: was trauma to the body. And so now I can't
Speaker 6: see a third autopsy. I mean that would naturally be
Speaker 6: left up to now, it would be left up to
Speaker 6: the government and to mister Moore if they if he
Speaker 6: called for a third autopsy. But I just don't see
Speaker 6: that happening, and it you know, we we've done We've
Speaker 6: done so much leg work on this case and so
Speaker 6: much paperwork and so much pay per trail. I mean,
Speaker 6: we've got uh, I've got my paralegal that does a
Speaker 6: lot of great work for me, Matt Mingus with Steven R.
Speaker 6: Andrews Law Firm, that he has drawn up motions and
Speaker 6: drafted so many documents asking for all the government, state government,
Speaker 6: and law enforcement agencies, the coroner, the funeral homes. He's
Speaker 6: asked for. You know, we've just asked for so much
Speaker 6: information and we've gotten some of it and some of
Speaker 6: it we haven't. You know, we asked for the county
Speaker 6: commissioners to have a meeting with us months and months back,
Speaker 6: and they said, yes, we'll go ahead and set it up. However,
Speaker 6: you're going to have to you're going to have to
Speaker 6: be with our county attorneys when that meeting takes place.
Speaker 6: And I said, that's not a problem. We'll be glad
Speaker 6: to address everything we have with them as well. And
Speaker 6: the phone call never existed. They never got back to us.
Speaker 6: And the school board was the same way. We've asked
Speaker 6: for meetings with the school officials and that we wanted
Speaker 6: them to be present so that we could address our
Speaker 6: issues and find out exactly what was going on in
Speaker 6: the school. And to this minute, we've never had that
Speaker 6: meeting as well, they've never gotten back to us.
Speaker 5: The question I have, and maybe you can answer this, Fred,
Speaker 5: is that you know, despite Michael J. Moore's being able to,
Speaker 5: you know, convince you that he's you know, he's dedicated
Speaker 5: to finding out the trusure in this, is this going
Speaker 5: to lead to a murder indictment? That's it? Does he
Speaker 5: have the power first or what are the stages that
Speaker 5: that can go that that this can be a possibility,
Speaker 5: because that's what we're looking for. Is to find out
Speaker 5: who murdered Kendrick Johnson and if he if you're saying
Speaker 5: the juror the Georgia Bureau of Investigation is not going
Speaker 5: to help out. And and the other question I want
Speaker 5: to ask, and sorry for the convoluted question, was what's
Speaker 5: the significance of the organs in both of your minds?
Speaker 5: Is there any significant significance at all to those missing organs?
Speaker 3: Well, let me answer the first question, which is the
Speaker 3: first question is that you asked, was what can mister
Speaker 3: Moore do? Can mister Moore bring a charge of murder? Absolutely, if, if,
Speaker 3: if it fails under the aegis of the federal government,
Speaker 3: if he can show that that Kendrick Johnson was denied
Speaker 3: his civil rights by being murdered by the five individuals
Speaker 3: that bo Webster has already identified, The answer is yes, period.
Speaker 3: The answer is yes now in terms of in terms
Speaker 3: of the organs, I think that the organs being missing
Speaker 3: that would not have been an uncommon thing ten years ago,
Speaker 3: especially in some some more remote venues in the United States.
Speaker 3: What are you gotta do is look at it from
Speaker 3: this point of view. Organs are organs of a person
Speaker 3: who you think has been killed. Are evidence? Bill Okay
Speaker 3: put it together. The organs are missing, the mat is missing,
Speaker 3: the clothing is missing, the surveillance video is missing. Somebody's
Speaker 3: somebody's are hiding something. And one of the great things
Speaker 3: that you have done then is a result of our
Speaker 3: last conversation about this back in June, an individual heard
Speaker 3: this in Georgia and he came forward as a source.
Speaker 3: And I've nicknamed him the Falcon after the Marvel comic
Speaker 3: books character because I'm a comic bookiek And he has
Speaker 3: helped me understand what it's like to be African American
Speaker 3: in Georgia and specifically in Valdosta. And he has really
Speaker 3: helped need to understand what's going on there. And this
Speaker 3: is the kind of stuff that I haven't written about
Speaker 3: yet because in writing Family dot Com, I'm doing more
Speaker 3: of the news stuff. But when I do the book
Speaker 3: on this and and uh and and then I'll be
Speaker 3: able to really get into this because to me, this
Speaker 3: is what's really interesting, which is the the the the
Speaker 3: fears that people put up with the the the the
Speaker 3: barriers between the races and and what, you know, what
Speaker 3: people believe. And it's amazing, Dan, with everything that we
Speaker 3: have talked about I'm here tonight. I've talked to tow
Speaker 3: uh Caucasians in uh in Valdosta who want to maintain
Speaker 3: that Kendrick died from physitional association, which is about the
Speaker 3: same as saying that, uh, the Starship Enterprise exists, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, I'd like to believe it does, but it doesn't.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, not yet. You know, maybe in a couple
Speaker 3: of centuries. You know, I'm you know, my apologies to
Speaker 3: Bill Shatner, but you know the the it's just you
Speaker 3: know so, but sort of answer your question. Uh, you know,
Speaker 3: I've been in a long way around. Mister Moore can
Speaker 3: absolutely bring murder charges. And again Bow is being being
Speaker 3: very uh uh He's much more circumstance than I am.
Speaker 3: And and uh, but the fact is Bow has identified
Speaker 3: the suspects. Okay, he's identity and and this, and mister
Speaker 3: Moore is using those information to now go and you
Speaker 3: you know, the FBI is using this stuff as leads
Speaker 3: and and they're in Aldasta, and I'll and if I
Speaker 3: was those bad guys and I was listening right now,
Speaker 3: I would say that you know, one of you going
Speaker 3: to come forward and make the deal. Real quick. Uh,
Speaker 3: and and because otherwise they're gonna throw the book at you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so maybe it is a good thing that in
Speaker 5: some ways if you could say that that there are
Speaker 5: federal prosecutors looking at this case because there was really
Speaker 5: obviously a concerted effort for this case to go away,
Speaker 5: that that looks pretty obvious. Absolutely, So we'd hate to
Speaker 5: have those same authorities maybe charge the wrong person or
Speaker 5: admit that there there may have been foul play, but
Speaker 5: then again to a shoddy investigation. So maybe in the
Speaker 5: end it'll it'll be good that federal prosecutors look at
Speaker 5: this because it looks like a big story. It looks
Speaker 5: like a That's what I realized when I first looked
Speaker 5: at this, that that instinctively, there's so much going on
Speaker 5: with this, not only cover up, but there's it's a
Speaker 5: very very incredible story.
Speaker 3: I think it's going to make it as it is.
Speaker 6: And now I guess it's been going on for a
Speaker 6: number of years in that town and in that county.
Speaker 6: There's a lot of cases where you know, people are
Speaker 6: just they're scared to death, and uh, they don't know
Speaker 6: where to turn, they don't know who to talk to.
Speaker 6: It took a long time to get any kind of
Speaker 6: faith build up in these people, you know, so that
Speaker 6: they would talk to you, and and you know, so
Speaker 6: many of the kids are juveniles. You have to have
Speaker 6: the parents present when you talk to them, and the
Speaker 6: parents are even trying to get the uh, you know,
Speaker 6: the children, the students to partake and and give you,
Speaker 6: you know, quality information. And it's hard to do when
Speaker 6: you when you first start out because of the you know,
Speaker 6: the threats and people they're just they're afraid to talk.
Speaker 6: They have they have nothing to say. And we finally
Speaker 6: gained enough trust in these people that they have come
Speaker 6: forth and now we just have to put it in
Speaker 6: the hands of the Department of Justice. And I honestly
Speaker 6: do believe that you know, the right person is there
Speaker 6: to lay this attack, and that being mister Moore.
Speaker 5: Now, the family has been instrumental in having this case
Speaker 5: stay open, stay alive, stay in the public eye. What
Speaker 5: is the families are they feeling optimistic at this point
Speaker 5: based on.
Speaker 6: But I don't know if you want to answer that
Speaker 6: or not or.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that the family is is
Speaker 3: they've been used to being lied to, at least that's
Speaker 3: the way that they feel I haven't spoken to them lately,
Speaker 3: but I don't think optimism though is would be the
Speaker 3: correct term. No, I don't think that they're optimistic. I
Speaker 3: think more like they're realistic about what can and can't
Speaker 3: be done. There is now a concerted public relations campaign
Speaker 3: since mister Crump came on board the film. There's also
Speaker 3: a public relations person that's been hired or work out
Speaker 3: of Atlanta, and so very you know periodically that they're
Speaker 3: releasing information. I can also tell you that CNN is
Speaker 3: CNN has been on this from the beginning, but I'm
Speaker 3: actually and bo is that we're working with NBC and
Speaker 3: they've been on this actually since way before CNN. But
Speaker 3: we're building it, you know what I mean. We're not
Speaker 3: going out there and saying you know, X, Y Z
Speaker 3: and D, you know, just for the sake of saying something.
Speaker 3: We're building this thing, and we're continuing to investigate. So
Speaker 3: while mister Moore is doing his investigation, we're not stopping.
Speaker 3: We are not stopping. We are involved actively in investigating
Speaker 3: this case and inactively investigating the suspects.
Speaker 6: But I mean even though, yeah, even though this has
Speaker 6: gone this far, I mean on a daily basis, I
Speaker 6: am still doing investigation work on this case, and we'll
Speaker 6: continue to do that until everything is solved in the suspects,
Speaker 6: you know, received justice for what they've done.
Speaker 3: And it will happen. It is going to happen. This
Speaker 3: is not going away. They will not be able to
Speaker 3: kick this under the rug as the authorities have tried
Speaker 3: to do, the state authorities. It's not going to happen,
Speaker 3: not now, not in the glare of international publicity. It's
Speaker 3: going to go forward and they will. Eventually there will
Speaker 3: be a murder indictment, and I think it's going to
Speaker 3: be sooner rather than later.
Speaker 5: What I'm most interested in reading your book, Fred, And
Speaker 5: again I congratulate you guys beforehand for this, because I'm
Speaker 5: just fascinated by this story, and I'm sure many many
Speaker 5: many people will as well. Is there's a murder investigation,
Speaker 5: I'm very curious to see the circumstances of why this
Speaker 5: young man was killed. But I'm also even more intrigued
Speaker 5: by why the cover up could go all the way
Speaker 5: to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation that could include all
Speaker 5: these people. So there's certainly two really very fascinating stories.
Speaker 5: But I think the most interesting to me, is the
Speaker 5: cover up? Really?
Speaker 6: It really is. And you know, I've told a lot
Speaker 6: of people that this is this is a case where
Speaker 6: it's unbelievable how much the white community is behind this,
Speaker 6: and people would not understand it unless they actually, you know,
Speaker 6: talk to the white community. But there's so many people
Speaker 6: out there, thousands and thousands. I mean, it just goes
Speaker 6: on and on of how much support there is from
Speaker 6: the white community wanting justice and just thinks that you know,
Speaker 6: that this crime that was done to this seventeen year
Speaker 6: old is uncalled for, and there's a lot of support
Speaker 6: out there. And you know, if anyone that's listening to
Speaker 6: this radio talk show tonight, if anyone has any information
Speaker 6: that they can pass on, you know, we would greatly
Speaker 6: appreciate it, because you know, it comes down to would
Speaker 6: you want I mean, we all have children and we
Speaker 6: love them very much. Would you want your child going
Speaker 6: to school on a daily basis with a murderer or
Speaker 6: murderers that is responsible for committing such a heineous crime.
Speaker 6: I know I wouldn't and I would put my foot down,
Speaker 6: and you know, I just hope that someone, you know,
Speaker 6: will come forward, and we are getting a lot of
Speaker 6: great valuable information from people that we're in contact with
Speaker 6: on a daily basis, and we just hope that it continues.
Speaker 6: And you know, I want to thank you for this
Speaker 6: airtime because it certainly does help. I know that when
Speaker 6: we had our first one hour talk show back in June,
Speaker 6: we got phone calls from all over and it's just
Speaker 6: great to know that there's a lot of you know,
Speaker 6: there's a lot of attention to it, and people are
Speaker 6: interested and they want to do the right thing, and
Speaker 6: you know, I thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Well again, I want to thank you guys. I appreciate
Speaker 5: even being involved in this case in any way at all,
Speaker 5: because I was just outraged at the case, just looking
Speaker 5: at it very very simply and again trying to be
Speaker 5: objective and think, well, maybe I'm just being emotional, but
Speaker 5: instinctively I knew that there was something definitely with this
Speaker 5: and so I'm glad that this case has caught the
Speaker 5: attention of the public and more importantly caught the attention
Speaker 5: of federal prosecutors and the second OD and some of
Speaker 5: the things that have gone on have been encouraging to me,
Speaker 5: and so I really appreciate what you guys have done
Speaker 5: as well. And I'm really looking forward to further developments
Speaker 5: in this story.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 5: I just wanted to mention too, we talk about people
Speaker 5: contacting yourself or myself, and there was somebody just on
Speaker 5: the phone. And normally I do not have that as
Speaker 5: part of the feature of the program. But if somebody
Speaker 5: were to want to contact either Fred roseen bau Webster
Speaker 5: or myself, you could contact me through blog talk radio
Speaker 5: and then I would pass on that message. So there
Speaker 5: was somebody just waiting in the queue, and so I
Speaker 5: wanted to mention that you just never know who was
Speaker 5: calling and what kind of information they may have. So, gentlemen,
Speaker 5: we're almost wrapping up here. We've got a couple more minutes.
Speaker 5: And sure, so you were saying that you're still pursuing
Speaker 5: every kind of all all the leads and then the
Speaker 5: investigation where has pointed you. So you're still furthering that.
Speaker 5: What is the next I guess what is the next
Speaker 5: thing that you are going to be doing? I guess
Speaker 5: in the very very near future regarding this case, both.
Speaker 6: Well, I plan on I plan on being in Valdosta,
Speaker 6: you know soon, and there's there's several people that I
Speaker 6: have that I want to make contact with and I
Speaker 6: feel that it's going to be an very important part
Speaker 6: of the case. And I plan on doing that in
Speaker 6: a very near future and still having contact with mister
Speaker 6: Moore maybe once or a couple of times a week,
Speaker 6: giving more information because like I said, we have interested
Speaker 6: parties out there that we're in touch with every day,
Speaker 6: and UH, as we gather more information, we're comprising everything
Speaker 6: and UH all this information again will be turned over
Speaker 6: to UH the federal government, and they can they can
Speaker 6: take all this material and you know, do what they
Speaker 6: need to do.
Speaker 5: UH.
Speaker 6: But I really feel optimistic about it, and I think
Speaker 6: it's starting to move at a at a quick pace.
Speaker 6: And again, you know, I just want to thank you
Speaker 6: for for the airtime because it does help, and UH,
Speaker 6: I appreciate your concerns and I hope to have a
Speaker 6: lot of good information here in the very near future.
Speaker 3: Well you very well, comele And as for me, I'll
Speaker 3: be continuing to report on the case Revenue dot Com
Speaker 3: and UH and then simultaneously I plan to begin writing
Speaker 3: the book in the case. That's where I can really
Speaker 3: start getting into some of the issues that we've discussed
Speaker 3: tonight that don't fit in as readily to daily journalism,
Speaker 3: and yeah, I too would like to thank you very much,
Speaker 3: and because you've been instrumental in helping to push this
Speaker 3: along and get justice for this young man and for
Speaker 3: his family.
Speaker 5: Well, because very welcome, and I hope the very best
Speaker 5: from this program tonight and just from the ongoing investigation
Speaker 5: that you gentlemen have done, and I wish the best
Speaker 5: for everybody. It's just it seems like a growing movement
Speaker 5: of awareness that I'm seeing out on the web. And
Speaker 5: I think that with everybody's concerted effort, the family, the attorneys,
Speaker 5: the investigators, the Red Rosen and excellent true crime writing
Speaker 5: Ebony magazine, and all the articles that are appearing on
Speaker 5: the web just in the last little while, especially with
Speaker 5: the information with the surveillance video being posted. People love videos,
Speaker 5: So I mean, I really think that this case is
Speaker 5: going to gain national attention as it's so deserve. It
Speaker 5: deservedly does, and I think that we'll be looking forward
Speaker 5: to not not a happy ending, but at least justice
Speaker 5: being done. And I think people can pat themselves on
Speaker 5: the back when that happens by caring and sharing the
Speaker 5: information and demanding justice for this young man, Kendrick Johnson.
Speaker 5: So I want to thank you gentlemen both this evening
Speaker 5: and I wish you the very best and hope to
Speaker 5: hear from you very very soon with some real good
Speaker 5: news concerning the Kendrick Johnson murder case. Thank you, gentlemen, Thank.
Speaker 6: You very much.
Speaker 3: Have a good night, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 6: Good night night, good night,