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We're prohibited by lock 13 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:30.120 eight team plus terms and conditions applack see website for details. 14 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:37.200 Okay, round two, name something that's not boring, laundry, a 15 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:43.320 book club, computer solitaire. Huh oh, Sorry, we were looking 16 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:48.679 for Chumbuck Casino to chum. That's right, Chumbuckcasino dot com 17 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.280 as over one hundred casino style games joined today and 18 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:54.119 play for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes. 19 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:59.280 Chump Chumbucasino dot com. Nocess relieved by lock eighty plus 20 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:01.399 storms editions plus what I do Lot. 21 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:15.000 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 22 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:18.120 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 23 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:25.480 written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 24 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:29.200 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 25 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:33.840 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 26 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:36.719 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 27 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.680 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 28 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:52.959 program True Murder. The most shocking killers in true crime 29 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:57.319 history and the authors have written about them. On January tenth, 30 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:02.239 twenty thirteen, Kendrick Johnson's parents reported their seventeen year old 31 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:07.000 son missing the next day at Kendrick's school, Lounged High 32 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:10.919 School in Valdosta, Georgia. In the gym, students saw what 33 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:13.000 they thought was a pair of socks sticking out of 34 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:16.240 a gym mat, but when they approached, they told investigators 35 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:20.319 they realized it was a body. According to Lounge County 36 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:24.199 Share of Chris Prine, Kendrick Johnson died while reaching into 37 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:27.840 an upright gym matt in the old gym on January tenth, 38 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:31.199 trying to retrieve a sneaker that had fallen inside. Instead, 39 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:34.039 Kendrick fell in, couldn't get out and smothered to death 40 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:38.919 from positional affixiation. The original autopsy report ruled Johnson's death 41 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:43.479 an accident, stating that the teen suffocated while getting stuck 42 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.240 in a gym matt while reaching for a sneaker. However, 43 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:49.080 Johnson's parents weren't convinced there was an accident, and they 44 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:51.840 got a court order to have their son's body exhumed. 45 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:55.719 A second autopsy report showed the teen's death was not 46 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:59.879 an accident, stating that Johnson had sustained non accidental blunt 47 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:05.319 trauma During an autopsy. Eternal organs are removed and examined 48 00:03:05.319 --> 00:03:08.879 before return for burial. But when the private pathologist who 49 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:13.039 conducted the second autopsy on Johnson open up the teen's remains, 50 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:17.759 the brain, heart, lungs, liver, another viscera were missing. Every 51 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:19.960 organ from the pelvis to the skull was gone and 52 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:25.000 had been replaced with newspaper. Federal prosecutor now Michael Moore 53 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:28.960 is reopening the case. The book, the case that we're 54 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:31.639 featuring this evening. The story that we're talking about is 55 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:35.759 the Kendrick Johnson murder. With my special guest, Fred Rosen 56 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:41.199 and Bou Webster. Welcome back to the program, gentlemen, Fred 57 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:45.159 Rosen and Bo Webster, by pleasure, sir. 58 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:49.639 Thank you very much for having us well. 59 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.400 Thank you. This is an incredible story and I'm glad 60 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:56.639 to be involved in any way, shape or form. As 61 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:00.520 I had thought when I first was no fight of 62 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:05.719 this story with from Fred Rosen. This is an incredible case. 63 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:08.800 That's now I think I really do believe it's it's 64 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:14.199 gaining the national attention that it's so really does deserve. 65 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:15.879 So let's get to. 66 00:04:17.279 --> 00:04:20.680 A question I think that is important to this. Maybe 67 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.959 we start off with you first, Bow Webster, tell us 68 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:27.079 what your background is and how you came to be 69 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:32.680 involved with this particular case, the Kendrick Johnson case. 70 00:04:34.600 --> 00:04:37.879 Well, my name is bo Webster. I'm a private investigator 71 00:04:37.959 --> 00:04:46.079 in Florida, and my name affirm is Webster's Investigative Services 72 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:52.439 out of Tallahassee, Florida, and back the first part of February, 73 00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:00.639 I was called by the family attorney to come to 74 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:06.000 Valdosta and look at the case to see if I 75 00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:11.879 was interested in maybe pursuing the investigation. My background is 76 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:15.839 law enforcement in South Florida in the Fort Lauderdale area 77 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:20.439 for years, and I've had my private investigator's license and 78 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:24.360 agency for the past eight years, where we do all 79 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:29.199 types of investigative work, a lot of high profile criminal 80 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:38.800 cases along with large murder cases. I went to Valdosta 81 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:44.319 and actually met the attorney representing the family and met 82 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:49.879 mister and missus Johnson at that time, and came on 83 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:55.439 board as a investigator to try to determine what exactly 84 00:05:55.519 --> 00:06:01.160 happened to their seventeen year old son, Kendrick Johnson. 85 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:06.839 Okay, the same question for you, Fred. Not everyone knows 86 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:10.319 your reputation as an author, but tell us a little 87 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:14.879 bit about your background and how you came to be 88 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:16.759 involved with this case and why. 89 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.519 Well, I'm a true crime author. I've been a true 90 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:26.360 crime author for about the last twenty years. Actually part 91 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:28.560 of that, I was a columnist for the Arts and 92 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:35.759 Leisure section of the New York Times, and I worked 93 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:38.600 on a number of murder cases over the years, probably 94 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:42.560 twenty some odd throughout the United States. And I met 95 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:48.519 Bell Webster, a gentleman from Tallahassee, in a courtroom in 96 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:53.079 twenty eleventh February during the trial of Gary Hilton. I 97 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:55.360 was working on a book called Traales of Death, which 98 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:57.399 was about Hilton, who was a serial killer and he 99 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:02.399 killed people three three different states, and Bow and I 100 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.040 sort of hit it off and we continued to talk 101 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:09.480 and to each other. And sometime around oh, i'd say 102 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:12.839 April of this year, Bo called and told me about 103 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:17.199 this young man who had been discovered in the old 104 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.079 gym at this high school in Valdosta. I didn't even 105 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:25.079 know where Valdosta was then, and you know, I'm more 106 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:27.839 familiar which is going down the I ninety five Carter 107 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:30.000 on the east coast of the United States, you know, 108 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:32.480 and just going you know, through the you know, the 109 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:36.319 coastal area. And Bo told me that he this boy 110 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.360 had been discovered rowed up in a gym that dead, 111 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:43.600 and I took one look at the photograph, which looked 112 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:45.839 like his face had been at the time, we thought 113 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:48.120 that he had been the face had been beaten in 114 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:52.199 We since discovered there was other damage as a result 115 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:56.480 of what had occurred, but in any case, it didn't 116 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:00.920 make much sense to me. And quite frankly, you know, 117 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:04.920 I have a child, and as do most of the 118 00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:08.800 people working on this case. And as soon as I realized, 119 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:12.120 you know, that the appearance at that point didn't have 120 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:16.120 any other resources as far as anybody to investigate from them, 121 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.399 with exception of course, mister Webster, I said, I'm in 122 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:23.560 you know, and then what I did was I got 123 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:28.439 someone else involved who I work with, and I started 124 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:34.480 investigating and working with Bow and I went down to 125 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:38.559 Georgia back in June. BO and I then went to 126 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:42.519 see one of the people involved in the case, who 127 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:45.440 was a paramedic who was the first on the scene. 128 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:50.559 And that's when I knew that this thing was pretty 129 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:54.519 serious because that paramedic, when Bou tried to talk to him, 130 00:08:55.399 --> 00:09:00.679 was extremely scared. I've never seen an individual as scared 131 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.919 as this guy was, and I knew something was up, 132 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:06.759 and so I just stayed on it with both. 133 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:11.759 Tell us a little bit more about that conversation with 134 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:13.240 the paramedic of please. 135 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:26.600 Me me and BO, well, I'll tell you that basically, well, 136 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.480 basically what happened was we went out to talk to 137 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:33.840 this paramedic who BO had identified through his investigation as 138 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:35.840 the first individual in the scene, and he had some 139 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:39.600 other information and he just it was just basically going 140 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:42.159 to be a basic you know, what did you see, 141 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:45.879 et cetera, et cetera. And he came out of his 142 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:51.720 house and I actually I just wrote about this, it's something. 143 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:54.080 And he came out of his house. He was holding 144 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.320 his son and when Bo explained that he was there 145 00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:02.200 to talk about Kendrick Johnson. This guys, this guy frows. 146 00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:04.759 I mean, he got and his voice got. It was 147 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:09.440 very his voice trembled, and he was scared, and he 148 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:12.159 wouldn't talk to us. He was very bright. He just said, 149 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.919 you know, go talk to the hospital that I worked 150 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:17.960 for as something of that nature. He went back in 151 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:20.799 his house, closed the door, and both turned to me 152 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:26.120 and said, Fred, these people are scared. And I, you know, 153 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.879 I sort of looked around me, and you know, I 154 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.120 was a bit paranoid at that moment, to be honest 155 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:35.840 with you, Dan, And that's exactly the way that I 156 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.039 felt the entire time I was in Valdosta, which is 157 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.120 like somebody was watching me. And I'm convinced now that 158 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:48.720 there are individuals there that we're keeping track of us. 159 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.559 And I don't think we're being paranoid about it because 160 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:55.279 we're out to get to the truth and there are 161 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:57.200 people who don't want the truth to be out. 162 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:03.799 Now, for all those in the audience that you don't 163 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:05.919 know about this case as of yet, because we have 164 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:12.320 a pretty significant international audience, maybe we can, maybe one 165 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:16.360 of you can go through the official story as it 166 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:22.840 unfolded in terms of what the again, what characters said, 167 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.080 what and when and what exactly did they impart to 168 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:31.120 the public. So we're talking about the sheriff and we're 169 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.759 talking about the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. So maybe Fred, 170 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:38.639 you can tell us what or or Bo, what exactly 171 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:44.279 was the report in the beginning? Again, Bo, you knew 172 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.600 about this story first, so maybe you can tell us 173 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:49.919 what you first knew and what was the official line 174 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:53.320 and who were the players, the characters that were imparting 175 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:54.759 this information to the media. 176 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:04.320 Well, when I when I started the investigation, naturally you 177 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:10.960 know the victim, Kendrick Johnson, seventeen year old black male student, 178 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:17.759 was he went missing January tenth from his third or 179 00:12:17.759 --> 00:12:22.120 fourth block, which would be somewhere between one thirty pm 180 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:26.720 and three o'clock on Thursday afternoon, which would be the 181 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:33.320 tenth of January, and he was last seen in the 182 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.480 hallway of the school and entering the gymnasium, which is 183 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:42.600 the secondary gymnasium. Because they have they have a newer, 184 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:47.360 large facility that they play most of most of their 185 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:51.360 basketball games and any other kind of activities are in 186 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:56.600 the newer complex. So this is called like a secondary gym, 187 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:04.000 and there's surveillance cameras in the gymnasium as well as 188 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:10.200 you know, the surroundings of the school. And he never 189 00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:15.120 reported to his third or fourth block, so he was missing, 190 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:22.919 and he went that evening missing, never came home, which 191 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:28.559 was very unusual for him. According to the parents, they 192 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.519 would always have contact with Kendrick, and he would call 193 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:34.639 if he was running late and let them know that 194 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.960 maybe he was staying after for a basketball game or 195 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:43.159 you know, some other activity at school. And he didn't 196 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:47.039 show up at home later that night, and the parents 197 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:53.000 were concerned, naturally, and three o'clock in the morning, four 198 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:56.159 o'clock in the morning, you know, it's still a school night, 199 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:02.559 and he's still missing, and no word from Kendrick. And 200 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:06.200 so then there was a missing report made the next morning, 201 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:14.159 and Kendrick's body was found around between nine thirty and 202 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:20.639 ten o'clock on Friday morning by students and the faculty 203 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:28.759 members of the high school. And that's when it's just 204 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.559 it's the strangest case that I think I've ever worked 205 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:39.200 in investigation or in law enforcement, where there's just so much, 206 00:14:40.519 --> 00:14:44.600 so much evidence that was never collected and gathered and 207 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:48.960 the Sheriff's department naturally was notified immediately that there was 208 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:53.000 a body found in the gym and that the body 209 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:59.080 was found vertically wrapped up inside of a wrestling mat, 210 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:05.039 and that's what alarmed everyone, and all of a sudden, 211 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:10.240 the Sheriff's apartment becomes involved in an investigation and Georgia 212 00:15:10.279 --> 00:15:14.679 Bureau of Investigation was notified to respond as well. And 213 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:22.559 generally the coroner is notified immediately when there's a death 214 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:28.120 or a or a victim in a crime, and the 215 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:32.200 coroner was not notified until later on in the day, 216 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:35.000 which was maybe a round between four and four point 217 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:40.679 thirty in the afternoon, which is very odd. 218 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:44.320 In the court. 219 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.960 Go ahead, well, if I had what happens in terms 220 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:56.320 of the players, is this within hours? Those you know 221 00:15:56.440 --> 00:16:00.720 summarized it of course extremely well. But within hours the 222 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:05.279 family is told by Stride Jones, who's one of the 223 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:09.799 investigators working for Show of Chris Prime, that there is 224 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.480 no evidence of foul play, and which is a very 225 00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:16.799 strange thing to say when you're just starting an investigation. 226 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:22.000 Okay, Round two, name something that's not boring. 227 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:28.879 Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire, huh. 228 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:34.120 Oh sorry, we were looking for Chumbu Casino Chum. That's right, 229 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.200 chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino style games 230 00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:39.200 joined today and the play for free for your chance 231 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:45.960 to redeem some serious prizes. Chum chumbacasino dot com plus 232 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.279 start the conditions of bluebs retails at least. 233 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.000 That's that's my personal opinion on this. I've never heard 234 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.000 of anything like this, and I concur with Bo that 235 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:58.600 this is the strangest case that I certainly ever worked. 236 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:06.720 And then within maybe forty eight hours, with only the 237 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:13.559 preliminary autopsy results in, not the completed autopsy results, Sheriff 238 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:20.480 Chris Prime tells the media that Kendrick died by reaching 239 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:22.839 into this match. And it's a huge mat It's like 240 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:26.279 it's at least six feet tall, and he reached in, 241 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.079 he lost his balance, he fell in, he couldn't get out, 242 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.720 and he was in such a position that he couldn't breathe, 243 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:38.839 and he died and that's it, end of story. And 244 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:43.240 at the same time, Wes Taylor, who is the superintendent 245 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:47.319 of the school district, sends out a press release saying, oh, 246 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.920 this is an awful thing. You know, we hope that 247 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:54.039 the family will get over this. You know, now it's 248 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:56.559 time tomorrow, et cetera, et cetera. And it's like everybody 249 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:58.920 just wanted to sort of like push it aside and 250 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:03.400 wipe it away. Except we got one little problem then, okay, 251 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:10.319 which is that the clothing that Kendrick is wearing disappears. 252 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:17.839 His the matt disappears. As you pointed out. By the 253 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:21.680 time the body is presented to doctor Anderson, doctor William 254 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:26.480 Anderson in Orlando for the second autopsy, the organs have disappeared, 255 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:34.039 and to date the surveillance video has disappeared. So what 256 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:36.680 do you make of all of that? That's you know, 257 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:38.240 what do you make of all of that? And at 258 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.799 the same time, the most important element I think of 259 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:46.920 this is this, the jurge of Bureau of Investigation does 260 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:50.359 the autopsy. The results don't come out until May the second, 261 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:56.480 and they claim again positional asphyxia. Except this one little problem. 262 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:02.160 Positional asphixia means would mean that the boy's lungs would 263 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.599 have filled with fluid as a result of suffocation. His 264 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:13.160 lungs in the report weighed the normal amount, which means 265 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:17.400 he didn't die from positionally six years That is a 266 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.680 key to understanding this whole thing. And even though this 267 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:27.839 doctor comes out with this report, the GBI refuses to 268 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:33.079 take a look at it. They refuse to review what 269 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.200 the doctor has done or their own findings and set 270 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.559 as the sheriff and they just want to close the 271 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:41.160 whole thing down and say, hey, you know, he just 272 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.599 fell in. Oh, and I might add one other thing. 273 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:49.960 We have an email from a GBI executive in which 274 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:53.000 this individual says, oh, he wasn't reaching for a sue, 275 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.480 he was reaching for a book. They can't even get 276 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:57.519 their story straight, which is what I wrote him in 277 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:00.680 Ebony dot com, where I've been reporting on this. They 278 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.759 can't get their stories straight. Dan, it's it's it's it's 279 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.440 in some ways it is mind boggling. But they can 280 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:15.680 get away with it because the dealing with the authorities 281 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.440 in Georgia. And you know, I'm pretty straightforward in some 282 00:20:19.480 --> 00:20:23.000 of the in what I say, it's like walking into 283 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:27.920 the nineteenth century, Okay, people in the most The thing 284 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:31.240 that I really need to emphasize is this, if you're 285 00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:34.799 African American and you're in Georgia, you're in most places 286 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.599 you're a second class citizen, and especially in a place 287 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:42.079 like Valdosta, you're a second class citizen, even though this 288 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:47.079 is the twenty first century, and people are scared. People 289 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:52.839 are scared, and they're scared of the cops, and they're 290 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.920 scared of talking, and of course that makes our job 291 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:57.720 that much tougher. And now I'll just shut up in 292 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:01.279 my boat tore for the rest of the show. 293 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.920 And this is bo the inside the core of that mat. 294 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:11.880 The mat is about six foot or a little taller 295 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.759 than that, but the inside core that mat is around 296 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:22.279 fourteen inches in diameter, and Kendrick's shoulders from tip to 297 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:26.400 tip were nineteen or a little over nineteen inches. I 298 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:34.279 tried myself, the father, Kenneth tried. We both made attempts 299 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:37.160 to try to get our bodies inside of the core 300 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.480 that mat, and we were unsuccessful. We were not able 301 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:44.920 to do it. So that alone tells you that, I mean, 302 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:50.640 there's just no way that he could conceivably just push 303 00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:54.759 himself down or jump into the inside of that mat 304 00:21:55.279 --> 00:22:00.440 and die of affixiation to retrieve what is said to 305 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:06.319 be either tennis shoes or a book. There are two 306 00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:11.119 different stories to that. And he you know, he was 307 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:16.319 a triathlete, so he was in great shape. According to 308 00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:19.920 his dad, he was very strong and able to take 309 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:23.759 care of himself. So even if he was inside of 310 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:26.440 a mat, he would have been able to knock the 311 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:32.480 mat down and get out of the mat. But it 312 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:37.079 just doesn't make any sense. And probably a couple months 313 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.839 after I started the investigate, well immediately after I started 314 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:46.000 the investigation, I started asking for the surveillance tapes, which 315 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:50.160 was never to this moment, has never been given to me. 316 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:54.759 And I think the family maybe just got some of 317 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:59.519 the surveillance tapes in the last couple few weeks. But 318 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.440 I asked to go into the secondary gym where the 319 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:08.920 body was found. Weeks after I began this investigation, and 320 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:14.920 the family attorney and mister and Missus Johnson and myself 321 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.079 went to the gym so that we could go inside 322 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:23.359 of the secondary gym, take photographs, take measurements, look to 323 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:28.039 see where all the surveillance cameras are placed, to get 324 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:31.559 a good idea of what the inside of that gym 325 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.680 looks like. And we were told at the front door 326 00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:40.359 of the administration office that your investigator is not welcome 327 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.440 here today. And I mean it really floored me and 328 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:47.720 alarmed me that you know what's going on here? Why 329 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.240 can't we go into the gym? And I was turned away, 330 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:54.559 and I was told that I expect to call within 331 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.799 a week that I could return and then go back 332 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:02.640 into the gym, And that call was never made. And 333 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:08.599 back probably two weeks after school broke for summer session, 334 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:14.559 for summer break, that's when I had received notice that 335 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.319 we could go into the gym and take a look 336 00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:23.839 at everything, take our measurements, take photographs into the secondary 337 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.039 gym at that time, which was months after the fact, 338 00:24:27.960 --> 00:24:31.640 and it's I mean, it's just very frustrating to me, 339 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:34.519 and I know how frustrating it is to that family 340 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.640 to you know, to have to go through this. They 341 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:40.720 were allowed to go in the gym that day, but 342 00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:48.319 I mean by that time, there's no evidence whatsoever probably 343 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.799 to gather and all the information and all the evidence 344 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:55.559 that we've asked for in all these months, what is 345 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:59.640 it nine or ten actually ten months now, all the 346 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:04.240 evidence is not available. It's either been destroyed or it's 347 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:08.960 been held somewhere. But I have not seen any of 348 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:14.000 the evidence, the matt, the clothing, anything that would pertain to, 349 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:19.759 you know, to Kendrick's body or any type of DNA 350 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:21.960 that might have been gathered. 351 00:25:24.359 --> 00:25:26.960 Now you talk about the family, but the family has 352 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:35.440 been has been adamant and dedicated to this cause. So 353 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:40.960 once they've got the official explanation from authorities, they staged 354 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.880 daily protest at the courthouse. They were instrumental in. They've 355 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:52.319 now hired or attracted attorney Benjamin Crump, and as a result, 356 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:58.319 they were successful in court getting to be able to 357 00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:02.400 exhume their son's body for a second autosy. So Fred 358 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:06.680 tell us about that endeavor, that initiative to do that 359 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.160 and what has resulted from that second autopsy report. 360 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:13.480 Sure, let me let me just add one thing that 361 00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:17.000 as far as Ben Crump is concerned, Bo is being modest. 362 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:20.400 Ben Crump was hard at Bo's recommendation because Bo knows 363 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:24.839 mister Crump from Tallahassee. So he recommended that to the 364 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:29.880 attorney who was representing the family, and that's how he 365 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.200 came on board relatively recently. Now, what happened in terms 366 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:39.559 of the of the second autopsy is that the family 367 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:46.119 petitioned to disinter the body for a second autopsy. They 368 00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:50.119 were the petition was granted. And what makes that interesting 369 00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:54.039 is that the petition was granted on May the first, 370 00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:59.240 and that made headlines. At that point, there were very 371 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:01.680 little and there was very little in the way of publicity. 372 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:07.240 The following day and they second, the authorities stole the 373 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.559 headlines back. That's when they released the results of the 374 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:14.720 first door autopsy, where they claimed it was physicial asshixiation 375 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.960 about six weeks later in the middle of June, and 376 00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:21.839 Bow could comment more on this because he was there. 377 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:27.519 Kendrick's body was disinterred, you know, the vault placed on 378 00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:31.799 a flatbed truck taken to Orlando, Florida, where doctor William 379 00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:36.039 Anderson performed the second autopsy. When he body was presented 380 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:39.720 to doctor Anderson, he you know, he opened up the body. 381 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:43.039 That's when he discovered the organs were missing. But he 382 00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:49.240 did something that the first autopsy that had not been 383 00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:52.359 done at the first autopsy, and that was he dissected 384 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:57.279 Kendrick's neck and he discovered a severe hemorrhage. And in 385 00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:02.240 his opinion, the boy got from one blow to the 386 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:06.759 neck which caused his heart to stop. That is his opinion. 387 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:13.160 And what again, what makes this interesting is that that 388 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:19.440 is that second autopsy, the results are widely accepted within 389 00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:24.599 the African American community, though within the white community not 390 00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:29.480 not so much. So you have you have this this 391 00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:35.240 this uh economy going on, and you have and so, 392 00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:40.559 which makes it very very difficult to to get to 393 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:43.359 the truth because for every step forward that we make 394 00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:47.079 in the investigation, somebody else will come back and say, 395 00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:54.559 you know, it's some sort of explanation, uh that that 396 00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:58.440 that the the second autopsy doesn't have any valid results 397 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:02.480 for whatever reason. People had actually gone after doctor Anderson's 398 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:06.880 reputation in order to discredit the results of the autopsy. 399 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:13.599 But it was that autopsy that really we were waiting for. 400 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:17.039 The results came in in September, and by that time, 401 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:22.680