WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.169 --> 00:00:05.549 Hey guys, welcome to episode 235 of the team house. 2 00:00:05.769 --> 00:00:11.970 I'm Jack Murphy. I'm a, is it over here? Oh, 3 00:00:11.990 --> 00:00:17.800 sorry guys. My phone was on apologies. Uh, so episode 4 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:19.940 235 of the team house. We're here with our guest tonight, 5 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:24.079 Brent Tucker. I'm Jack Murphy here with David Park. Brent again. Uh, 6 00:00:24.140 --> 00:00:26.379 thank you for being on the show tonight. Really appreciate 7 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.530 you joining us on a Friday evening. Absolutely. 8 00:00:30.589 --> 00:00:32.250 Thanks for having me. I truly do appreciate it. 9 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:36.039 So, again, because I got a little distracted in the beginning, 10 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:40.799 Brent is a 20-year veteran of Army Special Operations. He 11 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:43.719 served in 20th Special Forces Group, and then he served 12 00:00:43.780 --> 00:00:48.399 in Delta Force, deploying to Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria. Today, 13 00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:52.170 he runs the First Responder Coffee Company, and he's also 14 00:00:52.189 --> 00:00:55.600 the co-host of the Antihero podcast. We're really happy to 15 00:00:55.649 --> 00:00:57.950 have you here today, Brent. And, you know, I'll kind 16 00:00:57.990 --> 00:00:59.729 of start it off from the top, asking the same 17 00:00:59.789 --> 00:01:02.689 question I ask all of our guests about their origin story. 18 00:01:02.710 --> 00:01:04.049 If you could tell us a little bit about where 19 00:01:04.069 --> 00:01:06.370 you grew up, what your upbringing was like, and sort 20 00:01:06.390 --> 00:01:08.750 of how that took you on a path towards the military. 21 00:01:10.370 --> 00:01:11.109 Yeah. 22 00:01:12.049 --> 00:01:15.890 I grew up in a small town in Florida, Sanford, Florida, 23 00:01:16.379 --> 00:01:19.680 working in a family business. We own Tucker's Farm and 24 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:23.930 Garden Center that my grandfather started. That was... I was 25 00:01:23.969 --> 00:01:25.469 one of the few people who didn't want to leave 26 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:28.019 my small town. Um, and I just wanted to work 27 00:01:28.060 --> 00:01:30.920 in the family business. Um, you know, my, like my, 28 00:01:31.079 --> 00:01:34.180 my path in life was, was already set and I 29 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:36.840 was more than happy to go down that path. Um, 30 00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:42.140 I definitely wasn't a, uh, um, an adrenaline junkie as 31 00:01:42.189 --> 00:01:44.730 a kid. I was a pretty quiet kid. Uh, so 32 00:01:44.969 --> 00:01:47.569 definitely not someone you would have, uh, you, you would 33 00:01:47.590 --> 00:01:52.180 have pegged for, for anything in the special operations realm or, uh, 34 00:01:52.620 --> 00:01:54.620 even leaving town at any point. 35 00:01:57.030 --> 00:01:58.629 So, so how did that happen? I mean, if you 36 00:01:58.650 --> 00:02:00.750 were on this track of like going on, taking over 37 00:02:00.769 --> 00:02:04.750 the family business. Yeah. 38 00:02:05.250 --> 00:02:08.969 So the September 11th happened. I mean, I had, it's, 39 00:02:09.129 --> 00:02:13.719 it's crazy. September 10th, September 10th, I'm 20 years old, 40 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:17.759 you know, still chugging down that, that same path that 41 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.409 I was on as a, as a little kid. September 42 00:02:20.530 --> 00:02:24.830 11th happened and it changed my world the same way 43 00:02:24.849 --> 00:02:30.500 it changed a lot of people's world. I knew I 44 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:35.460 wanted to do something. I made a decision that day 45 00:02:35.500 --> 00:02:37.960 that I kind of would make time and time again 46 00:02:38.020 --> 00:02:40.849 throughout my military career when I had to come to 47 00:02:40.889 --> 00:02:45.080 make a big decision. which was I didn't want to 48 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:48.400 live a life with regrets. I didn't want to be 49 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:51.620 70 years old looking back and said, man, when I 50 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:55.150 was 20, our country got attacked. Almost 3,000 people died, 51 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:57.509 and I felt like I should have done something, but 52 00:02:58.169 --> 00:03:00.050 I just played it safe and stayed in my small town. 53 00:03:01.289 --> 00:03:05.830 That honestly is the– I mean, there's the genesis right there. 54 00:03:05.870 --> 00:03:09.659 That line of thinking started it. I raised my hand. 55 00:03:10.740 --> 00:03:14.849 It took me until September 27th to actually– signed the paperwork, 56 00:03:16.110 --> 00:03:21.069 and off I went. And I only meant to do 57 00:03:21.169 --> 00:03:25.830 a four-year stint and come right back to my small town. 58 00:03:26.550 --> 00:03:28.490 And as the saying goes, if you want to make 59 00:03:28.509 --> 00:03:31.129 God laugh, tell him your plans. I couldn't have been 60 00:03:31.150 --> 00:03:34.050 any more wrong, and I continued to be wrong about 61 00:03:34.090 --> 00:03:36.569 my career as it progressed. 62 00:03:37.620 --> 00:03:40.189 So, so what did you enlist as, as far as 63 00:03:40.210 --> 00:03:42.550 like your MOS, what was kind of like your plan 64 00:03:42.590 --> 00:03:44.860 going into the military? The one that God laughed at, 65 00:03:44.889 --> 00:03:45.210 of course. 66 00:03:45.229 --> 00:03:46.050 Yeah. 67 00:03:46.449 --> 00:03:50.129 When, when I, I knew nothing about the military and 68 00:03:50.430 --> 00:03:53.800 I mean, well, next to nothing. My dad would take 69 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:56.719 me to air shows. My dad wanted to be a, 70 00:03:57.240 --> 00:03:59.419 a fighter pilot so bad, I guess when he was 71 00:04:00.180 --> 00:04:03.430 in his late teens, then eyesight got him. And so 72 00:04:03.469 --> 00:04:05.849 he didn't, he didn't get a chance to chase that dream. 73 00:04:06.530 --> 00:04:09.780 So I definitely grew up in a military friendly family. 74 00:04:09.789 --> 00:04:13.259 You know, we watched war movies. My dad made us 75 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.319 watch all the Vietnam documentaries and I loved it. Um, 76 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:19.720 so we were, we were a military friendly family, but 77 00:04:20.420 --> 00:04:24.060 no one was talking about joining and I had no 78 00:04:24.259 --> 00:04:28.889 idea what I was going to join. So, um, A 79 00:04:28.939 --> 00:04:32.290 good friend of mine that I went to high school with, 80 00:04:32.470 --> 00:04:36.089 Jessica Butters, her dad was, all I knew is that 81 00:04:36.129 --> 00:04:39.209 he was in the military. I knew nothing more than that. 82 00:04:40.290 --> 00:04:44.269 Come to find out, he was a CW4 at a 83 00:04:44.389 --> 00:04:48.129 National Guard unit, a National Guard air defense artillery unit 84 00:04:49.449 --> 00:04:52.360 out of Daytona Beach. So he was the first, he 85 00:04:52.379 --> 00:04:54.379 was the only person I knew. So I went to 86 00:04:54.420 --> 00:04:57.050 him and said, hey, You know, a country got attacked. 87 00:04:57.069 --> 00:04:59.350 I want to do something about it. So I came 88 00:04:59.370 --> 00:05:02.850 to him. He gave me pretty good advice. He's like, hey, 89 00:05:03.490 --> 00:05:06.930 I'm in the National Guard. I think you should do that. 90 00:05:06.970 --> 00:05:08.850 You'll get a chance to fight. You'll get called up. 91 00:05:09.509 --> 00:05:14.589 But but, you know, you don't have to go away 92 00:05:14.649 --> 00:05:17.350 for four years. Sounded like a good plan to me. 93 00:05:17.410 --> 00:05:18.670 Sounded like I was going to get what I wanted, 94 00:05:18.730 --> 00:05:22.269 which was to deploy. And so I went to the 95 00:05:22.310 --> 00:05:26.740 recruiter that he recommended me to go to. And for 96 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:31.310 a guy who wanted to join the military and fight, 97 00:05:32.310 --> 00:05:37.509 I got put in air defense national guard, which may 98 00:05:37.569 --> 00:05:40.889 not have seen a lot of action. So that was, 99 00:05:41.029 --> 00:05:44.230 that was, uh, it took me about a year to, to, well, 100 00:05:44.269 --> 00:05:46.629 probably took, it took, it took less than a year 101 00:05:46.670 --> 00:05:50.949 for me to figure that out. Um, but yeah, figuring 102 00:05:50.970 --> 00:05:54.129 it out is one thing, but doing something about it is, is, is, 103 00:05:54.310 --> 00:05:57.829 is another. So as soon as, uh, as soon as 104 00:05:57.870 --> 00:06:01.490 I got a basic and AIT, we did get mobilized 105 00:06:01.790 --> 00:06:04.430 to go to the invasion of Iraq. And we sat 106 00:06:04.490 --> 00:06:09.990 around for like six months in Fort Bliss. And, um, 107 00:06:11.290 --> 00:06:14.930 at that point we had a, a sister battery coming 108 00:06:14.990 --> 00:06:18.730 back from Afghanistan. And so I couldn't wait to talk 109 00:06:18.750 --> 00:06:21.930 to those guys to see what war was like. And, uh, 110 00:06:22.470 --> 00:06:27.129 I asked them and, uh, they did like a 14 111 00:06:27.129 --> 00:06:31.149 month deployment to Afghanistan. Uh, and I found out that 112 00:06:31.189 --> 00:06:34.680 it was a Patriot missile battery that you were with Brent. 113 00:06:34.810 --> 00:06:35.480 Sorry to interrupt. 114 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:35.860 Yeah. 115 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:40.399 Uh, so that would have been, um, a part of, of, 116 00:06:40.660 --> 00:06:44.540 of the unit. I, me in particular, I was in, um, 117 00:06:44.819 --> 00:06:48.319 short range air defense, which was stinger missile operator. 118 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:48.610 Okay. 119 00:06:48.620 --> 00:06:49.379 So we're single. 120 00:06:49.620 --> 00:06:49.819 Yeah. 121 00:06:49.870 --> 00:06:54.970 So shoulder fired stinger missiles, 14 Mike, which eventually became 122 00:06:54.970 --> 00:06:58.889 14 Sierra. Cause I had to go to the little 123 00:06:58.910 --> 00:07:02.170 bit longer course to do the, the Avengers like that, 124 00:07:02.810 --> 00:07:07.339 that Humvee with the, the, the four missiles on each 125 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:10.819 side of the turret. So that's the Avengers. That's, that's 126 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:14.019 what I went to school for. But when those guys 127 00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:16.250 went overseas for 14 months and came back, they just 128 00:07:16.490 --> 00:07:18.970 guarded the gates. That was all they did. They did 129 00:07:19.009 --> 00:07:22.129 nothing to guard the gates, which is, was my worst 130 00:07:22.170 --> 00:07:25.259 fear come true i kind of eventually was slowly figuring 131 00:07:25.379 --> 00:07:27.579 out i don't think the taliban has a lot of 132 00:07:27.620 --> 00:07:30.759 helicopters to shoot down and i'm not sure my skill 133 00:07:30.779 --> 00:07:34.040 set will be utilized in the war on terror um 134 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:36.810 so i asked those guys and said hey what uh 135 00:07:37.949 --> 00:07:41.629 like then who was doing things and uh they they 136 00:07:41.670 --> 00:07:44.550 told these stories that were probably a little bit true 137 00:07:44.889 --> 00:07:48.079 but uh a little bit embellished They'd be like, oh man, 138 00:07:48.100 --> 00:07:51.480 these special forces guys, these green braids would come on to, 139 00:07:52.259 --> 00:07:54.620 would come to our, come to our gate with blood 140 00:07:54.689 --> 00:07:58.129 all over their Humvees. And I'd have to be like, hey, Sergeant, 141 00:07:58.569 --> 00:08:01.810 I need your IDs. And they'd be like, F you, 142 00:08:01.850 --> 00:08:04.509 just open the gate. And so I was like, so 143 00:08:04.529 --> 00:08:06.670 what'd you do? It was like, well, I opened the gate. 144 00:08:06.750 --> 00:08:08.230 What do you, what'd you expect me to do? And 145 00:08:09.290 --> 00:08:11.649 I was like, man, and a part of me was like, 146 00:08:12.189 --> 00:08:14.850 those guys kind of sound like assholes. And the other 147 00:08:14.870 --> 00:08:17.699 part of me was like, those guys sounded really cool. 148 00:08:18.620 --> 00:08:24.000 So the, uh, um, I eventually found out about 20th 149 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:27.579 special forces group, which is a national guard group. Um, 150 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.579 and that started really my, my, my whole first fight 151 00:08:31.990 --> 00:08:35.250 trying to, trying to do that. Cause we were, we 152 00:08:35.289 --> 00:08:38.970 were mobilized at the time getting ready to go. And 153 00:08:38.990 --> 00:08:41.509 that was the nail in the coffin was like, I don't, 154 00:08:41.769 --> 00:08:43.029 I don't, I don't want to do this. 155 00:08:43.289 --> 00:08:43.909 I want to do that. 156 00:08:44.669 --> 00:08:48.279 Um, And so it's very difficult as a National Guardsman 157 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:51.639 who's already mobilized. And we went through the whole mobilization process. 158 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:55.610 And what we're supposed to be, even though we didn't 159 00:08:55.730 --> 00:08:57.950 leave when we were supposed to, they were going to 160 00:08:57.970 --> 00:09:00.690 just kind of hold us in this limbo as a 161 00:09:00.730 --> 00:09:04.429 mobilized unit. They could call any time. And so we 162 00:09:04.470 --> 00:09:08.009 sat there for months at El Paso waiting for a 163 00:09:08.049 --> 00:09:11.840 call that never came. So I started fighting with my 164 00:09:11.860 --> 00:09:15.529 my company leadership then telling me, Hey, I want to 165 00:09:15.570 --> 00:09:19.100 go to special forces. I want to go to national guard, uh, 166 00:09:19.139 --> 00:09:22.379 to 20th group. Um, they kept saying, no, they, they 167 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:24.539 told me all sorts of lies. Like, well, you have 168 00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:26.379 to be an E five to, to go be a 169 00:09:26.419 --> 00:09:29.500 green beret. So you'll have to wait a few years. Um, yeah, 170 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:31.970 I've been, you just talked to a few more people, 171 00:09:32.019 --> 00:09:36.350 found out that wasn't true. You know, I mean, just 172 00:09:36.470 --> 00:09:39.309 20th group when, in a weird way has a lot 173 00:09:39.330 --> 00:09:43.429 of like, With other National Guard units has a lot 174 00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:48.840 of myths like surrounding it. And you're like, oh, you 175 00:09:48.860 --> 00:09:50.679 can't go to 20th group because you have to be, 176 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:53.570 you know, a an active duty special forces guy first. 177 00:09:53.570 --> 00:09:55.960 And when they come out, that's how they go to 178 00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:58.429 20th group. I mean, just all sorts of things that 179 00:09:58.539 --> 00:10:03.820 just weren't true. Um, I eventually found, I don't know 180 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.000 if you guys remember this, you guys remember the, uh, 181 00:10:06.460 --> 00:10:07.639 AKO white pages. 182 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:10.720 Oh yeah. Yeah. 183 00:10:11.259 --> 00:10:13.940 That's how I found my 20th group recruiter. I went 184 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:18.350 to the AKO white pages and I Googled, uh, special 185 00:10:18.389 --> 00:10:23.240 20th special for Googled probably went searched 20 Special Forces, 186 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:28.429 and I actually found a recruiter number out of Ocala, Florida, 187 00:10:28.470 --> 00:10:30.990 which would have been the closest one to me. So 188 00:10:31.610 --> 00:10:36.309 I'm still deployed or mobilized in Texas, and I call him, 189 00:10:36.990 --> 00:10:40.269 and I still remember the guy who picked up, because 190 00:10:40.289 --> 00:10:42.980 I ended up, he was a support guy there and 191 00:10:43.009 --> 00:10:45.519 was a recruiter. He picks up the phone, Sergeant First 192 00:10:45.539 --> 00:10:48.210 Class Carey, And, uh, and I was like, Hey, I 193 00:10:48.269 --> 00:10:50.330 just want to introduce myself. Uh, my name is private 194 00:10:50.350 --> 00:10:53.169 first class Tucker and I, I want to be a 195 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:56.200 green beret. And he asked me like two quick questions. 196 00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:57.679 Uh, like, yeah. 197 00:10:58.299 --> 00:10:58.919 How long have you been? 198 00:10:58.940 --> 00:10:59.360 He was like, right. 199 00:10:59.379 --> 00:11:01.000 First class. Where are you at? I told him, he 200 00:11:01.019 --> 00:11:03.419 was like, how long have you been in? Um, and 201 00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:06.259 I told him and he basically goes, uh, call me 202 00:11:06.299 --> 00:11:08.299 back in like a year and then hangs up the phone. 203 00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:12.000 And again, I was like, man, these guys are kind 204 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:12.639 of dicks. 205 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:15.940 I think. 206 00:11:17.179 --> 00:11:19.039 Maybe I'm a dick, but that's, I don't know. I 207 00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:21.500 kind of want to like, I love that. Like you're 208 00:11:21.539 --> 00:11:23.700 not good enough and you have to prove yourself. And 209 00:11:23.860 --> 00:11:25.519 you know, this, yeah, it's. 210 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:26.779 Like, you got to come and stand out in front 211 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:28.679 of the door and wait, wait your turn. 212 00:11:29.700 --> 00:11:29.940 Right. 213 00:11:30.019 --> 00:11:30.279 Yeah. 214 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:32.000 I mean, you know, it's not this, everyone gets a 215 00:11:32.019 --> 00:11:35.070 trophy mentality. I can't, can't wait to welcome you. You know, I, 216 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:39.639 you know, I, I, I enjoyed that. We, we, we 217 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.289 demobilized a few short months later. Uh, I, I called 218 00:11:43.330 --> 00:11:46.049 him right back, um, and talk to someone else on 219 00:11:46.090 --> 00:11:49.429 the phone. who was a little more welcoming and told 220 00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:50.929 him my sob story. They said, you know what, come 221 00:11:50.950 --> 00:11:54.970 over here and do a, uh, do a small tryout 222 00:11:55.269 --> 00:11:59.549 and we'll, and, and we'll see. Um, so I show 223 00:11:59.669 --> 00:12:02.480 up knowing absolutely nothing to this small tryout. I knew 224 00:12:02.529 --> 00:12:04.379 they told me to get ready to, to rock and 225 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.519 do a PT test at least. And so I said, okay. 226 00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.799 And I showed up not knowing anything, but knowing the, Hey, 227 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.679 like all I know about soldiering is like boots and 228 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:17.600 uniform matters. Uh, and I'm not a green beret yet, 229 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:20.460 so I better show up with, with polished boots and 230 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.210 a press uniform. Uh, and I did that and I 231 00:12:23.250 --> 00:12:25.889 was immediately scolded for it and told to get into 232 00:12:26.110 --> 00:12:29.950 the PTs and, uh, don't, don't ever wear those around 233 00:12:29.990 --> 00:12:32.610 here again, unless there's some sort of award ceremony going on. 234 00:12:33.090 --> 00:12:36.840 And I said, okay, I like this place already. Um, 235 00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:40.159 I did the, uh, did the PT test and the, 236 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.179 and the rock and, uh, I did very well on it. Um, 237 00:12:45.110 --> 00:12:46.509 They said, hey, we want to bring you over to 238 00:12:46.529 --> 00:12:48.830 our program and send you a selection as soon as possible. 239 00:12:49.509 --> 00:12:52.330 Go back and tell your unit that you want to 240 00:12:53.350 --> 00:12:55.809 that you want to transfer over here. And that's where 241 00:12:55.850 --> 00:12:58.889 the real fight kind of started. You know, they they 242 00:12:59.250 --> 00:13:01.659 they had already been given me a bunch of, you know, 243 00:13:02.539 --> 00:13:05.480 slow rolling me. And now they just simply told me, no, 244 00:13:06.259 --> 00:13:08.580 we're not going to send you. But like before the mobilization, 245 00:13:08.620 --> 00:13:10.960 we sent a couple of guys over there. They never 246 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:14.139 make it, you know. Don't waste our time with the paperwork. 247 00:13:14.379 --> 00:13:16.570 Don't waste your time. We're just not going to send 248 00:13:16.590 --> 00:13:19.889 you over there. So I carried that message back to 249 00:13:19.909 --> 00:13:25.149 20th group and the sergeant major laughed at it and said, 250 00:13:25.409 --> 00:13:28.590 hold on, I'll make a phone call. They can't. It's 251 00:13:29.470 --> 00:13:31.129 I told you to do that, but it's really not 252 00:13:31.649 --> 00:13:35.409 up to them. So he makes a phone call. I 253 00:13:35.450 --> 00:13:38.129 go back to work a couple of days later. They're like, well, 254 00:13:38.169 --> 00:13:41.230 you got what you want. I hope you're happy. We'll 255 00:13:41.269 --> 00:13:43.799 see you in a couple months when you don't make it, 256 00:13:44.289 --> 00:13:46.289 which was one of the best things they could have 257 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:51.279 done for me because I absolutely trained my ass off. 258 00:13:52.100 --> 00:13:56.419 I couldn't stand them anymore. I had too much pride 259 00:13:56.460 --> 00:13:59.139 to fight that hard and then have to swallow it 260 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:01.899 and come back and tell them I wasn't good enough. 261 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:03.950 I go to selection a few months later. 262 00:14:03.970 --> 00:14:05.139 I come back. 263 00:14:09.029 --> 00:14:10.450 I think I had to turn in some gear that 264 00:14:10.470 --> 00:14:12.750 I still had from them. And for whatever reason, I 265 00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:15.929 was kind of hoping that they'd be like, hey, we 266 00:14:15.970 --> 00:14:17.889 were wrong about you. Good job. You're like the only 267 00:14:17.929 --> 00:14:22.129 guy that's ever that's ever made it. Instead, they're like, well, 268 00:14:22.169 --> 00:14:24.230 guess what? You haven't made it yet. You know, half 269 00:14:24.250 --> 00:14:25.980 the guys don't make the Q course, so you'll be 270 00:14:26.029 --> 00:14:29.080 right back. And that was the last time I saw him. 271 00:14:29.860 --> 00:14:33.299 And I'll tell you how petty I can be. when 272 00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:36.539 I retired 20 years later after the Delta force, a 273 00:14:36.620 --> 00:14:41.250 part of me wanted to drive down there and, and 274 00:14:41.590 --> 00:14:44.340 shove my two 14 on their face and say, see, see, 275 00:14:44.809 --> 00:14:48.389 see what I did. Uh, but of course I think 276 00:14:48.490 --> 00:14:52.809 everyone there would have been like, who are you? Yeah. 277 00:14:55.649 --> 00:14:58.220 So that's, that's how, that's how I got to, uh, 278 00:14:59.019 --> 00:15:05.190 that's how we got the 20th group. Um, I was, uh, unfortunate. No, 279 00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:10.230 I was unfortunate enough to be smart. Um, which means 280 00:15:10.809 --> 00:15:14.220 I got to be an 18 echo. Um, I put 281 00:15:15.580 --> 00:15:19.120 after selection, I put down the forum. Wes is I wanted, 282 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:25.259 I put Bravo, Charlie echo Delta. Um, I sure as 283 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:29.299 heck didn't want to be a Delta. Uh, They said, congratulations, 284 00:15:29.340 --> 00:15:33.210 you got your top three, is what the guy told me. 285 00:15:33.809 --> 00:15:35.870 And I was like, what's that mean? He goes, you're 286 00:15:35.889 --> 00:15:37.470 an Echo. It was in your top three. It was 287 00:15:37.509 --> 00:15:40.370 only four choices. It was second to last is what 288 00:15:40.429 --> 00:15:44.549 I viewed it as. There's two reasons I wasn't real 289 00:15:44.590 --> 00:15:47.350 happy about being an Echo. It's because at the time, 290 00:15:47.980 --> 00:15:52.039 they had a longer Q course than Bravo and Charlie. 291 00:15:52.899 --> 00:15:57.490 And so at that time in 2002, everybody– thinks the 292 00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:59.210 wars are going to go away if you don't hurry 293 00:15:59.230 --> 00:16:01.690 up and get over there. So I wanted a short 294 00:16:01.769 --> 00:16:04.970 MOS Bravo or Charlie, you know, I wanted to try 295 00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:07.070 to clip out of Spanish and, you know, and, and 296 00:16:07.110 --> 00:16:10.070 be in Afghanistan and, you know, eight, nine. 297 00:16:10.070 --> 00:16:10.370 10 months. 298 00:16:10.389 --> 00:16:12.610 I mean, the Q course is already long enough with, without, 299 00:16:12.769 --> 00:16:17.409 without the rest of that. Um, again, my, what I 300 00:16:17.470 --> 00:16:20.320 wanted never seems to work out and I always have 301 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:23.879 to just deal with what I got. So I got echo. Um, 302 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:27.929 I stayed there longer. Uh, I, I tried, I tried 303 00:16:28.009 --> 00:16:30.799 to test out of Spanish. I missed it by like 304 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:36.320 two questions. Um, and, uh, of course the, you know, 305 00:16:36.340 --> 00:16:38.740 the jokes on me, I, I didn't get to miss, 306 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:42.120 maybe I missed the deployment. So instead of 13, maybe, 307 00:16:42.139 --> 00:16:44.970 maybe I'd have had 14 if, uh, if I got 308 00:16:44.990 --> 00:16:47.269 out of there a little quicker. Um, but yeah, there's, 309 00:16:47.509 --> 00:16:49.549 there's a, there was a lot of war left and, 310 00:16:50.210 --> 00:16:52.850 and really I look back at that generation of, of 311 00:16:52.909 --> 00:16:56.080 Q course guys and, And they were good dudes, man. 312 00:16:56.299 --> 00:17:00.379 I'm telling you, I, I couldn't be, I still talk 313 00:17:00.419 --> 00:17:02.279 to some of those guys in the Q course to 314 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.180 this day. Uh, they were such good dudes and they 315 00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:08.589 went on to do amazing things. And really little did 316 00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:12.690 we know that era of Q course students was really 317 00:17:12.710 --> 00:17:16.450 going to see 15 years of war after that, which, 318 00:17:16.609 --> 00:17:19.890 which really may be the, the, the most amount of combat, 319 00:17:19.910 --> 00:17:21.940 you know, any other generation was, was going to see. 320 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.230 And we, we had, we, we had no idea what, what, uh, 321 00:17:25.269 --> 00:17:26.069 what we were in for. 322 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.599 Hello everyone. If you're hearing this, uh, you are not 323 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:34.779 a member of the Patreon. You can get your hands 324 00:17:35.099 --> 00:17:38.509 on ad free episodes that come out early and you 325 00:17:38.549 --> 00:17:40.690 can ask us questions. Maybe we'll answer them. You can 326 00:17:40.750 --> 00:17:44.809 also watch the team house podcast completely ad free and early, 327 00:17:44.849 --> 00:17:46.890 and you can also watch it live as we interview 328 00:17:46.930 --> 00:17:50.160 our guests. Um, And it's the best way to support 329 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:52.720 the channel. So if you can, if you're open to it, 330 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.200 you can go to patreon.com slash the team house. That 331 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.069 link is in the description. We appreciate the supporters and 332 00:18:00.349 --> 00:18:03.369 we hope you would consider being one. So it's patreon.com 333 00:18:03.450 --> 00:18:05.170 slash the team house. Thanks guys. 334 00:18:06.410 --> 00:18:08.289 Brent, I want to ask you a little bit about 335 00:18:08.329 --> 00:18:11.569 how 19th and 20th group are structured because we know 336 00:18:11.609 --> 00:18:15.220 that the different SF groups are generally have, you know, 337 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:19.660 are assigned an area and, and aligned to a particular area. How, like, 338 00:18:19.700 --> 00:18:21.940 how did they choose your language? How are 19th and 339 00:18:21.980 --> 00:18:24.680 20th group, the guard units aligned? 340 00:18:25.220 --> 00:18:29.269 Yeah. At, at, at the time, uh, a battalion aligned 341 00:18:29.289 --> 00:18:34.089 with the group. So third battalion, 20th group aligned with seventh, uh, 342 00:18:34.150 --> 00:18:37.430 special forces group. So I, I got Spanish because our, 343 00:18:37.609 --> 00:18:40.339 our battalion was aligned with seventh. Okay. 344 00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:41.980 That's yeah. 345 00:18:43.339 --> 00:18:47.099 Um, the well which which really kind of gets me 346 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:51.059 into to my days with with 20 special forces group 347 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.640 as a green beret um i i was uh i 348 00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:56.759 spent my whole guard time as a you know as 349 00:18:56.819 --> 00:18:59.460 a as a single guy just being a guard bum 350 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.970 i just went from set of orders from school to 351 00:19:03.009 --> 00:19:06.430 school to deployment to deployment uh and just stayed active 352 00:19:06.769 --> 00:19:09.170 the the whole time and i loved it i absolutely 353 00:19:09.210 --> 00:19:12.869 loved it um as soon as I graduated the Q course, 354 00:19:13.069 --> 00:19:15.250 I was on a C one 30 down to, down 355 00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:21.750 to Bolivia for, uh, for, for a month. Um, I, 356 00:19:21.769 --> 00:19:25.660 I had only, I'd only got to see the different 357 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:31.079 ODAs in the company a few times. And I saw these, uh, 358 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:33.599 I saw these guys on the dive team who were just, 359 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.569 who were just better than everyone else. And we're more 360 00:19:37.609 --> 00:19:41.190 than happy to prove it. And, um, I, My senior 361 00:19:41.190 --> 00:19:45.819 Echo on my first ODA was going was going to 362 00:19:45.859 --> 00:19:48.119 dive school cause he wanted to go to the, to 363 00:19:48.140 --> 00:19:53.500 the dive team. And, uh, and by, by the second 364 00:19:53.539 --> 00:19:55.869 or third time, you know, we, we'd done some training together. 365 00:19:55.940 --> 00:19:57.349 He looked at me and goes, Hey, you should go 366 00:19:57.369 --> 00:20:00.549 to dive school too. Um, and so I was like, 367 00:20:00.650 --> 00:20:02.750 I'd love to go to dive school. He goes, yeah, it's, 368 00:20:02.869 --> 00:20:05.230 it's easy. Just, you know, raise your hand. There's always slots. 369 00:20:05.269 --> 00:20:07.400 Go to dive school. So I'm getting ready to go 370 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.039 down to South America. And just like he said, you know, 371 00:20:11.059 --> 00:20:12.200 all you had to do was say you wanted to 372 00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:13.480 go to dive school and they'll put you. 373 00:20:13.420 --> 00:20:13.799 In a slot. 374 00:20:15.019 --> 00:20:17.819 So I go down to South America. I start training 375 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:21.410 for dive school before South America. As soon as I 376 00:20:21.430 --> 00:20:25.630 get to South America, I get an email back to 377 00:20:25.710 --> 00:20:29.509 AKO again. I get an AKO email saying that funding 378 00:20:29.569 --> 00:20:33.569 fell through and don't worry about, don't worry about dive school. 379 00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:36.890 And so I said, okay. So the next three weeks, 380 00:20:38.589 --> 00:20:44.529 I went on a very different training regime and partied 381 00:20:44.569 --> 00:20:49.259 my ass off and had a great time. We trained hard. 382 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:54.660 We partied hard. It was a great first experience. In fact, 383 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:59.920 that team I went down there with had their bravo 384 00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:04.640 on their team. Went to the unit before me. Their 385 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:07.960 18 Delta on the team, uh, went to the unit 386 00:21:08.180 --> 00:21:10.029 as a, as a medic before me. It was a, 387 00:21:10.059 --> 00:21:14.460 it was a stacked team, um, of, of great dudes, uh, 388 00:21:14.619 --> 00:21:17.089 that were seasoned guys. You know, they, they'd all, they'd 389 00:21:17.130 --> 00:21:20.029 all been to Afghanistan already and multiple trips and they'd 390 00:21:20.049 --> 00:21:22.309 all been on the team for like five, six, seven years. 391 00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:25.890 So it was a great, great first trip learning. I 392 00:21:25.930 --> 00:21:30.410 was the only echo on the team. So, Uh, you know, 393 00:21:30.430 --> 00:21:32.670 it was a great experience as a new guy to 394 00:21:32.809 --> 00:21:35.809 have all the combo to fall on me. It was 395 00:21:35.829 --> 00:21:39.039 a real cool experience going to hotels and setting up a, 396 00:21:39.029 --> 00:21:43.069 you know, satcom, you know, PSC five and, you know, 397 00:21:43.109 --> 00:21:47.180 shooting out, uh, reports, you know, from a hotel room, uh, 398 00:21:47.630 --> 00:21:50.359 in different cities and Bolivia, just kind of a, in 399 00:21:50.390 --> 00:21:53.619 civilian clothes as, as you're traveling around. So just, uh, just, 400 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.240 you know, definitely a cool experience in that part. Um, 401 00:21:58.099 --> 00:22:00.819 it's a couple of days before dive school is supposed 402 00:22:00.859 --> 00:22:04.220 to start. And I'm at a roadside cafe in Bolivia 403 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:08.220 and I get an email. Uh, it's an ATAR is 404 00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:13.319 notification saying, uh, giving me, you know, details of checking 405 00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:16.849 into dive school. Um, so I went to the, I 406 00:22:16.880 --> 00:22:19.170 went to the warrant officer on the team and, uh, 407 00:22:19.269 --> 00:22:22.799 I said, Hey, this is probably nothing, but I, I, 408 00:22:23.049 --> 00:22:26.289 I did get this ATAR is notification. And he's like, well, 409 00:22:26.309 --> 00:22:29.069 if you have an ATAR slot, you're, you're going, you 410 00:22:29.089 --> 00:22:30.650 need to get on a plane right now and go 411 00:22:30.670 --> 00:22:34.349 to Key West. Um, I, I was both excited to 412 00:22:34.390 --> 00:22:38.529 hear that. And also, uh, you know, it, it like 413 00:22:38.569 --> 00:22:42.710 a getting punched in the gut going, I, I'm not 414 00:22:42.769 --> 00:22:47.349 ready for this. Let's hope by, you know, you know, 415 00:22:47.369 --> 00:22:48.789 but there's a lot of things you can do when 416 00:22:48.829 --> 00:22:51.069 you're 24 that, uh, that you can't do later on 417 00:22:51.089 --> 00:22:55.890 in life. So I, uh, you know, not to make 418 00:22:55.910 --> 00:22:58.200 these stories long, but you know, just kind of, you know, I, 419 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.880 I get in a, a, uh, a, a one-way rental 420 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.819 car and we drive like me and one other guy 421 00:23:05.859 --> 00:23:09.319 that was going to go back with me, drive like 422 00:23:09.619 --> 00:23:13.759 nine hours straight. And there's these massive unrest going on 423 00:23:13.819 --> 00:23:16.329 because of the, uh, the elections just happened and no 424 00:23:16.369 --> 00:23:19.329 one's happy with the, the, the, the election and there's 425 00:23:19.450 --> 00:23:24.480 roadblocks everywhere. Our Spanish actually wasn't too bad, but it 426 00:23:25.049 --> 00:23:30.609 wasn't enough to be by ourselves negotiating roadblocks. We just 427 00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:34.690 randomly gave people money, just kept on giving them money 428 00:23:34.710 --> 00:23:37.440 until they seemed to be less angry with us and 429 00:23:37.740 --> 00:23:41.799 they let us go. We get to the airport and 430 00:23:42.700 --> 00:23:47.880 we landed on a military base dirt runway in the 431 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:51.190 middle of the night, unloaded and left. So I didn't 432 00:23:51.230 --> 00:23:57.150 get my passport stamped. When I get to the airport, 433 00:23:57.670 --> 00:23:59.609 we're trying to load up. And the guy's like, hey, 434 00:24:01.109 --> 00:24:03.890 something's weird. You don't have a stamp on your passport. 435 00:24:04.269 --> 00:24:06.650 How did you get in the country? And I remember 436 00:24:06.670 --> 00:24:10.450 the last thing my warrant officer told me was, hey, 437 00:24:10.470 --> 00:24:14.880 if you get in any trouble, here's the number to 438 00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:19.130 the embassy. Call this guy. He's our fixer. And so 439 00:24:20.390 --> 00:24:22.369 I didn't give him an answer about how we got 440 00:24:22.430 --> 00:24:24.769 in here. I just said, hey, you should probably call 441 00:24:24.809 --> 00:24:28.450 this guy first. And the guy told me, goes, I 442 00:24:28.470 --> 00:24:30.650 don't care who that guy is. How did you get 443 00:24:30.690 --> 00:24:33.190 in on our country? And you can go ahead and 444 00:24:34.069 --> 00:24:36.190 start looking at other flights because you're not getting on 445 00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:39.710 this one. And I was like, you know, OK, that 446 00:24:40.220 --> 00:24:43.859 that sucks. But, you know, call this guy. He walks 447 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:46.660 away 30 seconds later. He looks at me with disgust. 448 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:49.420 He just takes my passport and he stamps it and 449 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.819 he says, get out of here to this day. I 450 00:24:51.940 --> 00:24:53.700 don't know who that guy was. I don't know what 451 00:24:53.740 --> 00:24:56.269 he told him. Uh, but you know, just that it 452 00:24:56.329 --> 00:24:57.769 was at the end of the, it was a very 453 00:24:57.930 --> 00:25:01.470 cool non-combat first experience of, of, of being a green 454 00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:05.390 beret and just, you know, doing things that really is 455 00:25:05.450 --> 00:25:10.849 really unique to, uh, to green berets. Um, I end up, 456 00:25:11.299 --> 00:25:15.039 I get a, I fly right to Miami, um, and 457 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:19.170 check into die school and proceed to have the worst 458 00:25:19.390 --> 00:25:25.630 six weeks of my life. Um, whole week was absolutely horrible. Like, 459 00:25:25.750 --> 00:25:28.329 you know, I quit doing breath holds. I was not 460 00:25:28.390 --> 00:25:31.950 ready for it. Um, I was, I got dragged out 461 00:25:31.990 --> 00:25:35.619 of the pool, you know, almost every day and asked why, 462 00:25:35.799 --> 00:25:38.960 why I suck so much. Um, and I just, I 463 00:25:38.980 --> 00:25:43.210 remember calling my dad. at one point and saying, uh, 464 00:25:43.369 --> 00:25:45.430 Hey dad, we have, you know, the Q course has 465 00:25:45.450 --> 00:25:47.029 been a lot, you know, just went on a trip 466 00:25:47.069 --> 00:25:50.670 down South. Now I'm in, now I'm in die school. Um, 467 00:25:51.789 --> 00:25:54.509 it's just, it's really tough right now. Uh, I think, 468 00:25:54.690 --> 00:25:55.809 I think I just need to come home for a 469 00:25:55.809 --> 00:26:01.210 little bit. And, and, but my dad is not the, the, uh, 470 00:26:01.529 --> 00:26:04.950 the guy to, to cry on his shoulder. Uh, he's, 471 00:26:05.130 --> 00:26:07.789 he's just a very hard man, but, uh, but I 472 00:26:07.809 --> 00:26:11.380 also never complained to my dad about anything. Uh, so 473 00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:12.859 I think my dad knew if I was calling him 474 00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:14.619 to tell him things were pretty tough right now, he 475 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:19.680 just said, dude, you got to do some. And I said, okay, I'll, I'll, 476 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:23.480 I'll call you tomorrow and let you know. And, uh, 477 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:27.140 every day I showed up to the pool and had 478 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:29.569 to fake motivation. Like I wanted to be there when 479 00:26:29.609 --> 00:26:32.630 it was everything I didn't want to do. And, uh, 480 00:26:32.750 --> 00:26:34.289 I never called my dad back and told him that 481 00:26:34.329 --> 00:26:36.509 I wasn't coming or was coming. My dad said he, 482 00:26:36.670 --> 00:26:40.029 he figured that when I didn't call back, he, he 483 00:26:40.069 --> 00:26:42.940 knew and, Again, my dad's just a hardcore guy, so 484 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:44.539 it's not like he's going to call me and ask 485 00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:48.049 what's wrong. That was just the odd random conversation we had. 486 00:26:49.309 --> 00:26:54.509 It was a fleeting moment of weakness. I'll come back 487 00:26:54.549 --> 00:26:57.210 to that story here in a little bit because I 488 00:26:57.269 --> 00:26:59.390 tell on myself later in my career saying, hey, this 489 00:26:59.450 --> 00:27:04.079 is the hardest thing I've ever done. And I'll tell 490 00:27:04.099 --> 00:27:09.619 you the one particular time that It was like the 491 00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:12.140 end of pool week and you're just, you know, you're 492 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:18.329 just physically exhausted. And they they put us in. And again, 493 00:27:18.490 --> 00:27:20.490 and part of why it was so hard is because 494 00:27:20.710 --> 00:27:23.890 I I wasn't ready for it. So, I mean, I'm 495 00:27:23.910 --> 00:27:26.569 not saying it would have been easy otherwise, but I 496 00:27:26.609 --> 00:27:30.230 definitely didn't help myself out. They put us in the 497 00:27:30.250 --> 00:27:31.750 pool and they're going to have us do these. 498 00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:33.880 Sprints. 499 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:36.119 And they said, hey, and they told us, hey, bring 500 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:39.069 bring two shirts to the pool this day. Um, and 501 00:27:39.109 --> 00:27:41.349 so at the very end of the day, they, uh, 502 00:27:42.390 --> 00:27:44.589 they said, Hey, get, get one shirt wet, take your, 503 00:27:44.710 --> 00:27:47.150 take your Brown shirt off, put them in both your hands. 504 00:27:47.509 --> 00:27:49.799 And that's what you're going to swim in to get 505 00:27:49.819 --> 00:27:53.799 to the other side of the pool, these two soggy shirts. And, uh, 506 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:56.660 they said, pays to be a winner. First one to 507 00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.519 the other side of the pool gets to get out. And, um, 508 00:27:59.859 --> 00:28:02.319 and so everyone swam as hard as they could to 509 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.660 get to the other side of the pool. And, uh, 510 00:28:04.779 --> 00:28:06.519 they didn't let anyone out of the pool. They're like, Hey, 511 00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:10.599 but that's not this round. they send us back and forth, 512 00:28:10.700 --> 00:28:13.039 back and forth, like 15 times. No one gets out 513 00:28:13.059 --> 00:28:16.420 of the pool. And it sounds dramatic, but it's just true. 514 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:19.920 Like guys are getting fished out of the pool because yeah, they're, they're, 515 00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:23.720 they're cramping up and they're giving it their all. And 516 00:28:23.740 --> 00:28:27.680 they're just, and I remember thinking, you know, look into 517 00:28:27.700 --> 00:28:30.329 the guy beside me on the gunwale and, and we 518 00:28:30.349 --> 00:28:32.309 didn't say it, but we both looked at each other 519 00:28:32.329 --> 00:28:35.650 and just, you know, I've said, this sucks. Yeah. That, that, 520 00:28:36.170 --> 00:28:39.009 that look at that empty look at another guy's eyes 521 00:28:39.069 --> 00:28:42.799 when he's, when he's just giving it his all. And yeah, 522 00:28:42.950 --> 00:28:46.740 we've all, we've all been there. And I remember thinking 523 00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:51.240 to myself, I got one more in me. And if, 524 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:54.039 if they don't get us out of the pool, I'm quitting. 525 00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:55.599 Cause I'll end up at the bottom of this pool 526 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:57.740 if they send me again. So they send us again. 527 00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:01.420 I get to the other side of the pool and 528 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:05.509 I'm talking, I'm, I'm, Coaxing myself up. Well, this is 529 00:29:05.609 --> 00:29:07.829 it's time. It's time to quit. It's time to quit. 530 00:29:08.609 --> 00:29:09.970 And me and that guy look at each other one 531 00:29:10.009 --> 00:29:13.670 more time. And we both kind of shake our heads 532 00:29:13.690 --> 00:29:17.849 like this sucks. And and he goes, F it. I 533 00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:21.569 quit and gets out of the pool. And I remember 534 00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:23.799 looking at him getting out of the pool and thinking, 535 00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:30.180 you quitter. I can't believe what is wrong with you? 536 00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:33.410 Knowing that I was just as big as I if 537 00:29:33.430 --> 00:29:35.349 he wanted to beat me to it, I probably, I 538 00:29:35.390 --> 00:29:38.410 probably would have quit. And, uh, and just like, do 539 00:29:38.430 --> 00:29:42.859 you remember watching him quit? Just disgusted me. And, uh, 540 00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:45.000 I stayed in the pool. We went back and forth 541 00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:48.339 or six or seven times, but I guess maybe he, 542 00:29:48.460 --> 00:29:50.700 he left me some of his energy on, on, uh, 543 00:29:50.940 --> 00:29:54.980 on the way out. Uh, super glad I got die 544 00:29:55.019 --> 00:29:59.670 school out, uh, out of the way early in my career. Uh, Like, 545 00:30:00.130 --> 00:30:03.630 insert joke here, but like most divers, I'm a proud 546 00:30:03.670 --> 00:30:09.559 diver and really proud of that accomplishment. And it got 547 00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:13.319 me to work on the best ODA I ever worked with, 548 00:30:13.460 --> 00:30:18.359 best group of guys. Honestly, I ended up having one 549 00:30:18.380 --> 00:30:21.809 of my best deployments in my military career. was a 550 00:30:22.289 --> 00:30:25.130 20th group deployment with that dive team running the commandos 551 00:30:25.230 --> 00:30:27.890 out of Afghanistan. We just, you know, just when a 552 00:30:27.930 --> 00:30:30.609 group of, of really good friends deploy together, have the 553 00:30:30.650 --> 00:30:35.670 same mindset, uh, and just wanted to get after it. Um, to, 554 00:30:35.710 --> 00:30:38.279 to this day, one, one of my, one of my, 555 00:30:38.539 --> 00:30:41.380 one of my best experiences in the military and, and 556 00:30:41.420 --> 00:30:43.759 dive school is what kind of afforded me that, uh, 557 00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:46.900 that possibility. I, you know, it's interesting cause I want 558 00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:48.720 to paint sort of a picture for people who may 559 00:30:48.769 --> 00:30:49.470 not understand. 560 00:30:50.190 --> 00:30:52.930 Earlier when you're talking about going to dive school or, 561 00:30:53.049 --> 00:30:55.130 you know, the chance to go to combat diver school, 562 00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:58.380 you know, you said the, the senior echo said there 563 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:03.079 are always billets available. There's always slots open. And, and 564 00:31:03.099 --> 00:31:06.500 the reason for that is because combat diver is such 565 00:31:06.619 --> 00:31:14.269 a notoriously hard school that people don't sign up for 566 00:31:14.309 --> 00:31:17.390 it in general. Like it is, it's one of those 567 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:19.650 schools that somebody has to generally be really motivated to 568 00:31:20.089 --> 00:31:23.250 to go to because it is such like a dick dragger. 569 00:31:24.950 --> 00:31:26.009 I don't know if I'd have gone back. 570 00:31:26.450 --> 00:31:26.799 I don't know. 571 00:31:26.819 --> 00:31:29.259 I mean, I mean, I mean, thankfully I didn't have 572 00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:31.900 to make that decision. I'd like to think that, uh, 573 00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:33.480 with a little bit of rest and, you know, I'd have, 574 00:31:33.700 --> 00:31:36.500 I'd have, I'd have got back on there. Um, I 575 00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:39.900 was really lucky in, uh, in my career to, to, 576 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:44.019 to have not have recycled, uh, to not, uh, we'll 577 00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:46.500 get to it a little bit. There's one thing I recycled, but, 578 00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:51.720 but SF didn't, didn't hand that to me. Um, I'm 579 00:31:53.059 --> 00:31:55.259 not saying the Q course was easy. By no means 580 00:31:55.299 --> 00:31:57.980 was the Q course easy. The Q course had really 581 00:31:58.220 --> 00:32:04.470 tough days in it, but for just an absolute smoke session, 582 00:32:04.549 --> 00:32:09.029 day in, day out, running red line the whole time, 583 00:32:09.809 --> 00:32:13.630 dive school, without a doubt, was the hardest military school 584 00:32:13.869 --> 00:32:14.269 I went to. 585 00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:18.460 Talk to us about that deployment that it led you 586 00:32:18.539 --> 00:32:20.059 into with the Kandak commandos. 587 00:32:21.650 --> 00:32:28.029 Oh yeah. So we, um, I had, uh, I had, 588 00:32:28.210 --> 00:32:34.279 I'd been selected, uh, for, for the unit. Um, actually, uh, I, I, 589 00:32:34.779 --> 00:32:37.099 I got selected and I told him to, Hey, we're 590 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:39.470 on the verge of a, of another deployment. And I, 591 00:32:39.460 --> 00:32:44.480 and I want to go back to this, uh, um, well, 592 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:47.660 I should say my second time at selection, I get 593 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:52.480 selected and, and we're going, uh, I want to do this, 594 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:55.220 this deployment with, with, with, with our guys. It's one 595 00:32:55.259 --> 00:32:57.920 last hurrah, if you will. And I told him that. And, 596 00:32:58.059 --> 00:33:01.099 and they, they were like, absolutely. You just not going anywhere. Go, 597 00:33:01.099 --> 00:33:03.259 you know, go, go, go fight with your guys. I 598 00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:07.170 think they, they respected that. Um, so I go to, 599 00:33:07.549 --> 00:33:09.369 so that was really cool in a weird way, kind 600 00:33:09.390 --> 00:33:12.089 of being a made man and 20th group as a 601 00:33:12.309 --> 00:33:17.890 guy already selected to go to the unit. Um, and, uh, it, 602 00:33:18.849 --> 00:33:23.460 it was such a great mission. Um, so we didn't 603 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.839 have any air assets dedicated to us, you know, we didn't, 604 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:30.599 but we got a lot of aviation assets given to 605 00:33:30.740 --> 00:33:35.180 us by the battle space owner and how those deals 606 00:33:35.299 --> 00:33:39.180 usually worked was of course, we're, you know, you know, we're, uh, 607 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.000 we had plenty of direct action targets that we collected 608 00:33:42.299 --> 00:33:44.839 the Intel for. And we, you know, we, uh, here's a, 609 00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:47.140 here's a blast from the past. If you remember terms 610 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:51.920 like JPL targets, um, So we had our list of 611 00:33:51.960 --> 00:33:54.769 J-PALs to go after, but most of them required, to 612 00:33:54.829 --> 00:34:00.769 do it properly, aviation assets. And the Battlespace owner was 613 00:34:00.930 --> 00:34:05.109 interested in giving us aviation assets, but the Battlespace owner 614 00:34:05.130 --> 00:34:11.019 was actually a really good dude. And he also wanted 615 00:34:11.059 --> 00:34:15.860 work out of us, and smartly so. He would give 616 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:19.139 us assets if we would do missions for him. And 617 00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.860 what he wanted from us was to take our commandos 618 00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:28.079 and do valley clearing operations for his conventional forces, which 619 00:34:28.099 --> 00:34:32.769 is a great opportunity really for us too. And he's 620 00:34:32.829 --> 00:34:36.389 absolutely right. The commandos should have been at the very 621 00:34:36.530 --> 00:34:42.679 forward edge of those valley clearing operations, taking bullets so 622 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:47.510 Americans don't have to. It's their country. they're a motivated unit. 623 00:34:47.869 --> 00:34:51.210 They were more than happy to do it. Um, they 624 00:34:51.230 --> 00:34:53.610 had a short shelf life. So if it wasn't, you know, 625 00:34:53.659 --> 00:34:57.599 if I can't remember the exact hours, it's 48 or 72. And, uh, 626 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.579 trust me, they, they knew what the shelf life was. 627 00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:03.519 It's even, it's in their charter. And I want to 628 00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:07.119 say it's 72. So if, you know, if 72 hours 629 00:35:07.179 --> 00:35:09.469 is about to come up there, they'll let you know, Hey, 630 00:35:09.489 --> 00:35:12.130 we're our, our work's done here. This is, this is, 631 00:35:12.250 --> 00:35:14.250 this is as much as we're allowed to suck. And, 632 00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:19.300 and on more than one occasion for a unit that 633 00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:23.650 can't logistically do anything on their own. If they're on 634 00:35:23.670 --> 00:35:27.869 an operation, a value clearing operation, the longer than 72 hours, they'll, 635 00:35:28.090 --> 00:35:30.730 they will find taxis to come pick them up in 636 00:35:30.769 --> 00:35:33.079 the middle of the woods. All of a sudden they're 637 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:36.659 logistical masters and can find their way back to base. 638 00:35:37.219 --> 00:35:39.079 They can't find their way to a mission to save 639 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:44.030 their life. That's, I know I just said they were 640 00:35:44.070 --> 00:35:48.690 a great partner force, but that was a reality of them. 641 00:35:49.530 --> 00:35:54.880 I'm telling you, I feel like the more experience I 642 00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:59.199 got in SF, the more Robin Sage was real. I 643 00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:03.059 remember Robin Sage going, I have to show up and 644 00:36:03.219 --> 00:36:06.690 beg these fake Gs to let me in their camp 645 00:36:06.809 --> 00:36:10.849 and to fight with me. We're And the real world 646 00:36:10.889 --> 00:36:16.389 where Americans with, with, you know, with bombers and suitcases 647 00:36:16.449 --> 00:36:18.539 full of money, no one's, you know, I don't have to, 648 00:36:18.550 --> 00:36:21.699 I don't have to beg anyone to come fight with us. Uh, 649 00:36:21.730 --> 00:36:25.239 and there I am in Afghanistan begging our commandos not 650 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:28.500 to leave us going. I, am I in Robin Sage 651 00:36:28.539 --> 00:36:32.699 right now? This is, this is crazy. Um, but sure 652 00:36:32.739 --> 00:36:36.139 enough happened on more than one occasion. Um, but those 653 00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:41.050 valid clearing operations were great. Uh, they, they did suck. 654 00:36:41.179 --> 00:36:43.409 I mean, everyone prefers to, to get on a helicopter, 655 00:36:43.469 --> 00:36:44.909 hit a target in the middle night and not miss 656 00:36:44.949 --> 00:36:48.269 a meal or a workout. Um, they, they could be trying, 657 00:36:48.530 --> 00:36:50.369 you know, even, even those, you know, even, and they're 658 00:36:50.389 --> 00:36:54.769 still considered short duration missions at three and four days. Um, I'm, 659 00:36:54.969 --> 00:36:57.489 I'm sure there's some conventional guy listening to me whining 660 00:36:57.530 --> 00:37:01.260 about being out for three or four days. Um, but they, uh, 661 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:03.900 you know, when it was cold, it was freezing cold. 662 00:37:03.940 --> 00:37:06.510 When it was hot, it was miserably hot. And, uh, 663 00:37:06.940 --> 00:37:10.929 They would reserve the commando unit to go down the 664 00:37:11.030 --> 00:37:14.690 worst parts of the valley. Again, rightfully so. And that's 665 00:37:14.730 --> 00:37:17.070 exactly where we wanted to be. But, you know, we 666 00:37:17.090 --> 00:37:20.949 did those valley clearing operations. You know, if they teed 667 00:37:20.969 --> 00:37:22.269 it up for us and they teed it up for 668 00:37:22.309 --> 00:37:25.989 us right, then they put us right in the thick 669 00:37:26.010 --> 00:37:28.519 of things. We got to do a lot of good work. 670 00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:30.820 That. 671 00:37:32.110 --> 00:37:34.809 There's a couple of really cool stories that actually come 672 00:37:34.889 --> 00:37:42.230 from that particular mission, that deployment. We were the, and 673 00:37:42.570 --> 00:37:44.969 I don't know who keeps track of these stats. I 674 00:37:44.989 --> 00:37:48.610 remember them telling me, but, you know, adding up our, 675 00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:52.360 you know, the various kills you get as an ODA, 676 00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:56.179 and they, you know, they give you your CAS, you know, 677 00:37:56.219 --> 00:37:58.699 kills and your small arms kills. And, you know, we 678 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:02.139 were up in the, you know, high couple hundredths. And, uh, 679 00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:04.300 and they said that we, uh, we were the, you know, the, 680 00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:08.980 the leading ODA in country, uh, and kills, which really 681 00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:11.000 wouldn't have been hard. It's not in, although we were 682 00:38:11.019 --> 00:38:13.780 a really good ODA, it's not because we were amazing. We, 683 00:38:13.969 --> 00:38:16.869 we thought we were, um, but they put us, they 684 00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:20.090 put us in a good area with the commando. So we, we, 685 00:38:20.269 --> 00:38:24.010 we operated in all of the East into KL. Um, 686 00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:25.289 I used to be able to tell you what into 687 00:38:25.329 --> 00:38:27.789 KLS did for, I could probably get most of the, uh, 688 00:38:28.090 --> 00:38:31.510 most of the acronyms, um, And it was just a 689 00:38:31.550 --> 00:38:34.639 hotspot at that time. So we, we had the, we 690 00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:37.920 had the right partner force and the hottest area of 691 00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:44.059 the country. One mission was a, a fair, you're not, 692 00:38:44.619 --> 00:38:46.880 it was a great mission. It's not necessarily the one 693 00:38:46.900 --> 00:38:49.079 you want to get woken up for. Yeah. I told 694 00:38:49.099 --> 00:38:52.280 you that battalion commander was, was a great dude. He 695 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:54.909 calls our, our team leader and our team Sergeant into 696 00:38:54.929 --> 00:38:58.050 the office. He was like, Hey, I need you guys. 697 00:38:58.659 --> 00:39:03.539 And I guess he's teared up, asking for this help. 698 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:09.719 My team sergeant, Rick Spear, he goes, what do you need? 699 00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:12.480 He's always given us aircraft. He's always been real good 700 00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:16.820 to us. He goes, what's wrong, boss? He goes, my 701 00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:18.659 boys are hemmed up. My boys are hemmed up in 702 00:39:18.699 --> 00:39:24.539 a bad way. We got double digits dead and double 703 00:39:24.579 --> 00:39:29.039 digits wounded. And those numbers are climbing if we don't 704 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:32.639 if we don't get someone there like right now and, uh, 705 00:39:33.579 --> 00:39:35.460 came back, got the ODA said, Hey, the, you know, 706 00:39:36.019 --> 00:39:40.280 blades are spinning. We, we got to get there. Um, we, uh, 707 00:39:41.619 --> 00:39:45.070 if I remember right, this is called operation bulldog bite, um, 708 00:39:45.699 --> 00:39:47.539 We were going to insert to the South of their 709 00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:50.260 location because they were still in a firefight. So they 710 00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:52.599 didn't want us to insert there. We're going to insert 711 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.780 South their location and the Rangers were coming in. We're 712 00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:57.679 going to insert to the North and we were going to, 713 00:39:57.820 --> 00:40:00.179 and we were basically, it was really good. We were 714 00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:03.119 supposed to meet them there together, but everyone, everyone knew 715 00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:04.739 it was going to be a race to, to try 716 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:08.969 to get to them first and, and, and, uh, and 717 00:40:09.010 --> 00:40:14.070 help those guys out. Well, when we inserted the Ranger, uh, 718 00:40:14.070 --> 00:40:18.059 47 had mechanical failures. And they didn't insert. So it 719 00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:22.780 was just us. When we got there, we got there 720 00:40:23.539 --> 00:40:29.429 right as first light was there. We got there a 721 00:40:29.510 --> 00:40:31.750 little bit later. We were supposed to insert in darkness. 722 00:40:31.789 --> 00:40:34.909 It was just first light. AC-130 got there early to 723 00:40:34.949 --> 00:40:38.010 try to make sure that everything was going to be 724 00:40:38.050 --> 00:40:41.559 kosher for us. And As soon as the AC-130 got 725 00:40:41.619 --> 00:40:45.780 on station, it started lighting off. And it didn't stop shooting. 726 00:40:46.340 --> 00:40:50.340 It was shooting while we landed. And daylight, when the 727 00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:55.710 47s took off, it was still firing. And I remember 728 00:40:55.750 --> 00:40:57.829 looking at one of our guys and being like, isn't 729 00:40:57.849 --> 00:41:00.670 that weird? He's like, what's that? He's like, I've never 730 00:41:00.730 --> 00:41:05.570 seen an AC-130 in the daylight. He's like, yeah, that 731 00:41:06.210 --> 00:41:10.110 is kind of weird. Come to find out. Uh, and 732 00:41:10.210 --> 00:41:11.670 heck one of you guys may know, but it had 733 00:41:11.690 --> 00:41:13.670 to go up to like two or three star level 734 00:41:13.730 --> 00:41:18.409 approval to keep, to keep specter flying, uh, daylight that low. 735 00:41:18.730 --> 00:41:19.070 Yeah. 736 00:41:20.130 --> 00:41:21.210 Agent targets. 737 00:41:23.010 --> 00:41:28.949 I was going to say that almost, almost always, uh, AC, uh, 738 00:41:29.010 --> 00:41:31.730 specter would be like denied daylight ops because it flies 739 00:41:31.789 --> 00:41:34.289 so low. You can see it. And they were worried 740 00:41:34.309 --> 00:41:36.889 that would have present a target for man portables and stuff. 741 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:40.659 But to have a, a AC one 30 during the 742 00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:44.480 day is exceptionally rare. And like, and like you said, 743 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:50.179 probably had to be elevated because the, the in-country commanders 744 00:41:50.219 --> 00:41:52.860 like the air force, they, they did not allow that 745 00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:53.239 at all. 746 00:41:54.340 --> 00:41:58.480 Yeah. I'm telling you, it was a weird sight seeing it, 747 00:41:58.650 --> 00:42:00.610 you know? Yeah. You know, you, you get to hear 748 00:42:00.630 --> 00:42:02.730 it a lot, you know, what's up there, you know, on, 749 00:42:02.829 --> 00:42:06.349 you know, on multiple, multiple nighttime operations. But when you 750 00:42:06.369 --> 00:42:08.420 actually see it during the day, just, it just stuck out. 751 00:42:08.429 --> 00:42:12.409 I'm like, man, that's really weird. Um, and, and we confirmed, 752 00:42:12.469 --> 00:42:14.090 you know, obviously that, you know, it got told to 753 00:42:14.139 --> 00:42:16.480 us that they had to get special approval to stay 754 00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:20.760 on station and it took us. And of course we get, 755 00:42:21.079 --> 00:42:24.619 we get, uh, inserted a little, uh, a little bit, um, 756 00:42:24.980 --> 00:42:26.840 a little bit further than we wanted to be inserted. 757 00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:28.460 And so it's going to take even longer. It's going 758 00:42:28.480 --> 00:42:30.360 to take all day for us to get up there. Um, 759 00:42:32.250 --> 00:42:35.070 We get into, you know, there's a couple villages between 760 00:42:35.590 --> 00:42:37.809 us and them. We get into a little bit of contact, 761 00:42:38.690 --> 00:42:40.690 but the right call was made. Like, you know, this, 762 00:42:40.869 --> 00:42:43.289 you know, engaging it, killing an enemy right now isn't 763 00:42:43.349 --> 00:42:46.150 really our mission. Our mission is to get these guys 764 00:42:46.190 --> 00:42:51.989 as fast as we can. And, again, I'm the only 765 00:42:52.030 --> 00:42:56.119 commo guy on this mission. I was the only commo 766 00:42:56.139 --> 00:43:02.030 guy for the most part during that deployment. And... As 767 00:43:02.070 --> 00:43:04.579 we're traveling at night, we know we should be getting 768 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:08.860 close to these guys. Uh, and it goes back to, again, 769 00:43:08.940 --> 00:43:10.539 I feel like I'm in the Q course. Like at 770 00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:12.360 the times you feel like the Q course is so 771 00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:14.300 basic and things they tell you in the Q course, 772 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:17.900 they do, they, they come back, um, to, to, to 773 00:43:17.980 --> 00:43:23.480 ring true in operations. And I remember an SUT being said, uh, 774 00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:27.820 being told that the most, and then let me know 775 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:29.980 if you, if you remember this, you know, especially in 776 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.949 small unit tactics, What is the most dangerous part of 777 00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:37.739 any mission when you leave and come back from the wire? 778 00:43:38.059 --> 00:43:39.110 You want to take a guess at it? 779 00:43:40.840 --> 00:43:43.900 I mean, oftentimes it's right as you clear the objective, right? 780 00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:46.690 Because everyone's tired and you're chilling on security. 781 00:43:48.469 --> 00:43:54.510 The 7-8 answer for that will be re-entry of friendly lines. 782 00:43:55.030 --> 00:43:55.789 Oh, geez. 783 00:43:55.809 --> 00:43:56.800 Yeah, yeah. 784 00:43:56.820 --> 00:43:58.760 So you're waking up with friendly forces. 785 00:43:59.889 --> 00:44:02.920 Yeah, that's right. Reentry of, of friendly lines. And, uh, 786 00:44:02.940 --> 00:44:08.280 I always thought that was, uh, you know, uh, a 787 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:11.610 little bit, uh, a little bit over the top. Like, 788 00:44:11.869 --> 00:44:13.789 don't you think most dangerous thing is, you know, getting 789 00:44:13.849 --> 00:44:15.469 out here and, you know, and, and get it on 790 00:44:15.489 --> 00:44:18.179 an ambush line and mix it up with the enemy. Um, 791 00:44:18.820 --> 00:44:22.280 But here I am at 2 a.m. in Afghanistan. And 792 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:25.679 there is this, you know, there's these young 11 Bravos that, 793 00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:28.519 you know, that are burying their brothers and watching their 794 00:44:28.539 --> 00:44:32.280 other brothers maybe, you know, slowly bleed out. And there's 795 00:44:32.300 --> 00:44:35.719 these guys trumping through the woods, trying to link up 796 00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:39.750 with them. And I cannot raise them on the radio. 797 00:44:41.389 --> 00:44:44.840 And I was walking point at the time to go on. well, 798 00:44:44.889 --> 00:44:47.730 this is about fitting, you know, it's my, it's my fault, 799 00:44:47.849 --> 00:44:49.869 I guess, why we can't make commos. So I guess 800 00:44:49.929 --> 00:44:53.449 I should be eating these rounds. Um, I, I did 801 00:44:53.510 --> 00:44:55.949 everything that I was supposed to do before leaving. You know, 802 00:44:56.030 --> 00:44:57.929 I did, you know, I, I, you know, I got 803 00:44:57.969 --> 00:45:01.230 their fills, I got their frequencies. I, uh, I did 804 00:45:01.269 --> 00:45:04.050 radio checks with their guys in the ground. Why I 805 00:45:04.110 --> 00:45:07.670 couldn't make commo at that time is, is just, is the, 806 00:45:07.929 --> 00:45:12.349 is the bane of every Echo's existence. Um, and you know, when, 807 00:45:12.489 --> 00:45:14.369 when you need to come with the most, I couldn't 808 00:45:14.389 --> 00:45:18.860 make commo. And I just remember walking with my butthole 809 00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:23.699 puckers going every step. I'm afraid these, you know, these, 810 00:45:23.980 --> 00:45:28.079 these bushes are going to light up. Um, we never 811 00:45:28.099 --> 00:45:32.019 made comma. We never made a, a radio contact with them. 812 00:45:33.050 --> 00:45:36.820 And luckily for me, uh, they, you know, they, they, they, 813 00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:39.000 they heard things in the bushes. We lit up them. Like, 814 00:45:39.219 --> 00:45:41.019 you know, they, they yelled from a distance, Hey, who 815 00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:43.440 is there? We got, we got to, um, you know, 816 00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:45.829 speak English and they, they knew it was us. Uh, 817 00:45:45.900 --> 00:45:49.179 and they knew that there was an American force, uh, coming, 818 00:45:49.420 --> 00:45:51.519 you know, to link up with them. And luckily that 819 00:45:51.639 --> 00:45:55.019 got disseminated all the way to, to the outskirts. Um, 820 00:45:55.079 --> 00:46:00.559 but I'll, I'll never forget how, you know, um, just how, 821 00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:05.539 how dangerous, uh, that something that, that, really seems like 822 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:08.019 the least amount of dangerous thing that you would do. Like, 823 00:46:08.059 --> 00:46:10.139 you know, there was really, there's no enemy at the time. 824 00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:13.360 There's so much other dangerous stuff I've done in my, 825 00:46:13.380 --> 00:46:16.579 in my military career. Yet that to me, when I 826 00:46:16.619 --> 00:46:19.579 tell that story, I can still feel the, you know, 827 00:46:19.659 --> 00:46:21.679 the hair stick up the back of my neck, walking 828 00:46:21.699 --> 00:46:24.730 through those woods, you know, wait, waiting to get lit. 829 00:46:24.630 --> 00:46:26.369 Up with a VS 17 panel. 830 00:46:27.710 --> 00:46:31.650 But it's nighttime. Right. So yeah. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. 831 00:46:31.670 --> 00:46:37.199 Yeah. It's nighttime. I have nods. I don't even know 832 00:46:37.219 --> 00:46:40.969 if they got nods or if all their guys have 833 00:46:41.030 --> 00:46:43.530 nods or if they're still rocking seven deltas on a 834 00:46:43.570 --> 00:46:47.050 low loom night, which makes them almost just as dangerous 835 00:46:47.130 --> 00:46:52.639 with them as without them. I'll tell you this war 836 00:46:52.699 --> 00:46:56.619 story real quick. I'll rewind it and tell you how 837 00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.000 they got into this position and what will blow your 838 00:46:59.019 --> 00:47:02.340 mind what we talked about after we met up with them. 839 00:47:03.090 --> 00:47:09.039 So it's really a sad story about, about the bureaucracy 840 00:47:09.219 --> 00:47:12.579 of our military and the inability for people to make decisions. 841 00:47:14.019 --> 00:47:19.699 This was one of their very last valley clearing operations. It's, 842 00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:23.320 it had been a very quiet deployment for those guys 843 00:47:23.449 --> 00:47:27.789 and they just hadn't seen a lot of action. So they, 844 00:47:27.809 --> 00:47:31.079 you know, they, They started, in my mind, a little 845 00:47:31.099 --> 00:47:35.079 bit to lose respect for the battlefield. I mean, people 846 00:47:35.099 --> 00:47:39.039 don't understand that there's a lot of lull to war. Yes, 847 00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:40.840 we lost a lot of guys in Afghanistan, but there's 848 00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:43.960 plenty of guys who went and deployed and never fired 849 00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:47.460 their gun, and they never saw anything bad, and they 850 00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:49.880 just woke up every day, went to bed every day, 851 00:47:49.900 --> 00:47:52.539 and eventually went home. And it's not a sexy story 852 00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:56.840 to tell your friends, but that's the truth for really 853 00:47:56.860 --> 00:48:01.829 a lot of soldiers in Afghanistan. Um, these guys hadn't 854 00:48:01.889 --> 00:48:06.909 seen much, much combat at all. Uh, they come across this, uh, 855 00:48:06.989 --> 00:48:11.130 this house and this house is completely full of IEDs, 856 00:48:12.030 --> 00:48:17.150 full of IEDs. And so the company commander says, Hey, um, 857 00:48:18.510 --> 00:48:22.010 we're not going to touch this stuff. There's way too much. 858 00:48:22.409 --> 00:48:24.889 None of it. I don't feel that we're competent enough to, 859 00:48:25.050 --> 00:48:28.079 to move this stuff where we should anyway. I'm just 860 00:48:28.099 --> 00:48:32.599 going to call a strike on this house. So they 861 00:48:32.619 --> 00:48:35.739 get into a long haul and they start the process 862 00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:39.820 of trying to get someone to authorize dropping on this house. 863 00:48:40.300 --> 00:48:42.929 No one wants to make the call. The, you know, 864 00:48:42.969 --> 00:48:45.230 the battalion commander doesn't want to make the call, the 865 00:48:45.269 --> 00:48:48.190 brigade commander. And in fact, it's probably worse than that. 866 00:48:48.289 --> 00:48:50.909 Not to drag out the story, but the, you know, 867 00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:53.960 the opso didn't want to make the call who eventually 868 00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:56.239 made it to the XO and eventually made it to 869 00:48:56.260 --> 00:48:59.449 the battalion commander. Like all of these thresholds and levels 870 00:48:59.909 --> 00:49:02.389 and everyone just passing the buck up, passing the buck up, 871 00:49:02.429 --> 00:49:04.909 passing the buck up. Well, they've been here for like 872 00:49:05.190 --> 00:49:10.469 four hours just waiting for someone to give them any 873 00:49:10.530 --> 00:49:13.750 sort of guidance of what, of what they should do. Well, 874 00:49:14.590 --> 00:49:17.449 it's human nature. I'd probably do it too. But what 875 00:49:17.489 --> 00:49:19.909 does Joe do after four hours of being in the hospital? 876 00:49:20.179 --> 00:49:25.219 sun after not seeing any app? Joe does what Joe does. And, uh, 877 00:49:25.300 --> 00:49:27.619 and I say that, like I said, I, I'm not 878 00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:31.989 a robot. I, I, I do the same things. Um, 879 00:49:32.050 --> 00:49:36.409 and it allowed me to get up within very close 880 00:49:36.449 --> 00:49:43.920 proximities and, and lob of volley of RPGs and machine 881 00:49:43.940 --> 00:49:47.280 gun fire and just absolutely lay waste to these guys. 882 00:49:47.420 --> 00:49:51.929 And they really didn't have a solid fighting chance at it. 883 00:49:52.929 --> 00:49:55.389 They overwhelmed them pretty quick and hurt them pretty bad. 884 00:49:55.409 --> 00:49:58.829 And that's when we got the call. So the fact 885 00:49:58.869 --> 00:50:01.070 that at the end of the day, it was just 886 00:50:01.329 --> 00:50:06.610 indecision on anyone wanting, and of course, it's collateral damage 887 00:50:06.929 --> 00:50:08.130 is the reason they don't. 888 00:50:08.030 --> 00:50:10.650 Want to um, destroy a building. 889 00:50:11.650 --> 00:50:11.789 Yeah. 890 00:50:11.829 --> 00:50:15.070 Destroy. Yeah. Destroy that building or, and there was another 891 00:50:15.110 --> 00:50:17.489 building close, like fairly close to it. So they were 892 00:50:17.530 --> 00:50:21.409 concerned about that building rather than being concerned for their 893 00:50:21.449 --> 00:50:23.889 safety and wellbeing of our soldiers. They cared more about 894 00:50:24.309 --> 00:50:27.389 mud buildings and we sent guys home and body bags 895 00:50:27.469 --> 00:50:32.090 for it. It'll always be wrong. Um, and that's how, 896 00:50:32.289 --> 00:50:34.510 so that's, that's how we got there. Now I'll get, 897 00:50:34.690 --> 00:50:39.329 now we'll fast forward. We're here. We're talking to these guys. Um, the, uh, 898 00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:43.559 we're going to go, uh, you know, we're going to 899 00:50:43.579 --> 00:50:45.219 go up and get a little bit of shut eye 900 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.420 because we're, they're going to go come pick them up 901 00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:50.900 in daylight the next day. And so we tell them, 902 00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:53.880 and of course they're still in the, they're in the Valley. 903 00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:57.380 Like this house is, is in the Valley. Um, they're 904 00:50:57.420 --> 00:51:02.190 still in this house or in this compound. And we said, Hey, 905 00:51:02.449 --> 00:51:05.150 we're going to go up to that high ground over there. And, 906 00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:08.860 and get the tactical advantage. And I suggest you guys 907 00:51:08.909 --> 00:51:13.869 come with us. And, uh, and even then they're like, no, 908 00:51:14.429 --> 00:51:17.230 like you guys got it up there. Like you guys 909 00:51:17.250 --> 00:51:21.570 can protect us from up there. Right. And like, kind 910 00:51:21.650 --> 00:51:25.010 of like, I don't like what would be, what would 911 00:51:25.050 --> 00:51:26.909 be a better bet would just to be up there 912 00:51:26.989 --> 00:51:28.949 with us. Like that's, that's where you want to be, 913 00:51:29.110 --> 00:51:32.699 but not down here in this Valley. But, um, but 914 00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:35.030 you know, I'm not going to be too hard on them. 915 00:51:35.139 --> 00:51:37.090 You know, I mean, obviously they're, they, they were dealing 916 00:51:37.110 --> 00:51:40.809 with a lot beat down pretty hard. Um, and, uh, 917 00:51:40.849 --> 00:51:43.409 maybe they just needed him. They're more than willing to 918 00:51:43.449 --> 00:51:45.909 have someone come save him and help him out. But 919 00:51:45.929 --> 00:51:49.269 that's that, that. And I'll tell you one more after this, 920 00:51:49.329 --> 00:51:51.829 but we'll let you guys ask questions or talk about 921 00:51:51.869 --> 00:51:52.789 it a little more if you want to. Do you 922 00:51:52.809 --> 00:51:55.340 remember the rank? That was one of our better missions. 923 00:51:56.139 --> 00:51:56.400 Sorry. 924 00:51:56.579 --> 00:51:59.380 But I don't mean that. Guys lost their lives. Sure. 925 00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:02.420 I'm trying to think of a good word to use 926 00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:04.079 where I say better missions. 927 00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:07.440 It's one of the more significant actions. And you guys 928 00:52:07.539 --> 00:52:10.389 went in there and helped out fellow American soldiers. That's right. 929 00:52:10.409 --> 00:52:11.269 It makes it meaningful. 930 00:52:12.349 --> 00:52:17.389 That's right. Yeah. I mean, the... the feeling it's only 931 00:52:17.429 --> 00:52:21.599 happened probably two more times in my career. Um, like, 932 00:52:21.639 --> 00:52:25.539 you know, to, to get there and face to face 933 00:52:25.820 --> 00:52:30.000 and strangers, just absolute strangers look at you and want 934 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:32.880 to hug you because you, cause you showed up and they, they, 935 00:52:33.179 --> 00:52:37.829 you know, they needed someone with guns to show up and, 936 00:52:37.849 --> 00:52:39.809 you know, they, they're just, you know, they, they're sitting 937 00:52:39.849 --> 00:52:43.110 there waiting, waiting to die. And, um, I mean, if 938 00:52:43.130 --> 00:52:46.030 they knew us, we were as big as jackasses as 939 00:52:46.110 --> 00:52:51.409 anyone else. We're definitely not at times to be put 940 00:52:51.469 --> 00:52:53.860 up on a pedestal. But at the end of the day, hey, 941 00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:56.239 when the Green Berets show up and the guys with 942 00:52:56.280 --> 00:53:03.639 beards show up, you're expected to fill that role. We 943 00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:05.159 were more than happy to fill that role for them, 944 00:53:05.179 --> 00:53:07.630 and we were more than happy to protect those guys 945 00:53:07.690 --> 00:53:08.610 and get those guys out of there. 946 00:53:09.940 --> 00:53:12.300 Out of curiosity, do you remember the size of that 947 00:53:12.380 --> 00:53:16.619 element that you guys went in to relieve or to salvage? 948 00:53:18.860 --> 00:53:20.579 I want to say in the, in the twenties. 949 00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:25.119 And then do you, do you recall like what the, 950 00:53:26.059 --> 00:53:28.050 was it, was it a captain? Was it like a, 951 00:53:28.139 --> 00:53:31.699 a PL or a lieutenant? 952 00:53:32.579 --> 00:53:36.860 I know I'd have to, we there's, there's, I don't 953 00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:38.760 know if a few guys have one like this. I 954 00:53:38.780 --> 00:53:45.090 would need a lifeline. And our medic, Mark DeMeo, remembers everything. 955 00:53:45.570 --> 00:53:45.789 Yeah. 956 00:53:46.269 --> 00:53:48.469 Everything. I can call Mark right now. He can tell 957 00:53:48.489 --> 00:53:50.349 you exactly how many guys are there, the rake of 958 00:53:50.389 --> 00:53:53.239 that dude, and the area that we were operating in. 959 00:53:53.260 --> 00:53:59.619 Yeah, I'm just curious if the officer, the ground force commander, 960 00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:02.400 was the one making the call not to like evac 961 00:54:02.420 --> 00:54:04.820 with you guys up the, up the hill. Or if, 962 00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:08.360 if he was getting from higher that no, like stay 963 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:10.300 in place until we resolve what we're going to do 964 00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:11.780 with this, these IEDs. 965 00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:13.219 Yeah. 966 00:54:13.300 --> 00:54:14.989 I just, I just remember that being, you know, the, 967 00:54:15.110 --> 00:54:17.630 the answer to the, to the conversation, obviously the, the, 968 00:54:17.710 --> 00:54:21.230 the team sergeant had that, had that conversation with whoever's 969 00:54:21.289 --> 00:54:24.010 in charge and, and it'd be in the combo guy. 970 00:54:24.030 --> 00:54:26.650 I was probably right next to the commander sitting up, 971 00:54:26.710 --> 00:54:27.269 sit reps. 972 00:54:27.909 --> 00:54:28.130 Yeah. 973 00:54:28.809 --> 00:54:31.110 And so was there something else with that? You want 974 00:54:31.130 --> 00:54:34.190 to talk about how that operation wound down or if 975 00:54:34.210 --> 00:54:35.809 it sounded like maybe there was something else you wanted 976 00:54:35.829 --> 00:54:36.389 to say about it? 977 00:54:38.769 --> 00:54:41.550 No, not about that one. I'll talk about one more. That's, 978 00:54:41.570 --> 00:54:43.909 you know, that's kind of similar happened the same trip, 979 00:54:44.010 --> 00:54:48.820 but I'll tell you one of the weirdest things. One 980 00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:51.300 of the weirdest things that ever happened was at the 981 00:54:51.380 --> 00:54:54.699 end of that operation. And by the time we actually 982 00:54:54.739 --> 00:54:56.900 got helos in there, it was actually, it was actually 983 00:54:56.920 --> 00:55:01.059 at nighttime. So we actually, stayed all day during the day, 984 00:55:01.159 --> 00:55:04.880 got all the wounded out, and whoever could walk to 985 00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:07.679 this next LZ, we were all going to walk to 986 00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:14.219 that HLZ and get out of there with a 47. 987 00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:20.409 So it's nighttime. We're in PZ posture, and our interpreter 988 00:55:20.449 --> 00:55:23.610 comes up to me and goes, hey, one of the 989 00:55:23.650 --> 00:55:27.929 guys found a goat, and he really wants to keep it. 990 00:55:28.969 --> 00:55:34.469 And my initial reaction was like, no, you can't bring 991 00:55:34.510 --> 00:55:38.230 a goat on a 47. But, you know, I don't know. 992 00:55:38.409 --> 00:55:39.570 Another part was like, you know what? 993 00:55:40.650 --> 00:55:40.969 Sure. 994 00:55:41.820 --> 00:55:45.400 Yeah, he can have the goat. So I, for whatever reason, 995 00:55:45.699 --> 00:55:48.400 authorized this guy to have a goat on the 47. 996 00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:51.860 And and he's just holding this goat the whole time. 997 00:55:51.880 --> 00:55:56.110 He's holding it. And we're we're on this. um, like 998 00:55:56.230 --> 00:55:59.519 steep ledge. So here on this, the top of this 999 00:55:59.559 --> 00:56:02.639 plateau is where it's going to land. And we're at 1000 00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:06.519 the very edge of, of this really steep ledge. So 1001 00:56:06.539 --> 00:56:10.909 when the 47 comes in tailgate this way, um, I 1002 00:56:10.949 --> 00:56:12.670 look at him and I told October to, Hey, hold 1003 00:56:12.750 --> 00:56:17.230 onto that goat tight. We're, we're, we're getting ready to go. And, um, 1004 00:56:18.289 --> 00:56:22.460 and I'm just watching them, uh, where, I'm just watching 1005 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:26.360 with nods, and it looks like he does this, and 1006 00:56:26.380 --> 00:56:30.699 then just throws the goat off the ledge to its 1007 00:56:30.739 --> 00:56:35.969 little goat death. And I'm like, those, they're so weird. 1008 00:56:36.010 --> 00:56:39.570 You know, Afghans just do weird things, you know? Just 1009 00:56:39.590 --> 00:56:41.909 shaking my head like, I thought you wanted that goat. 1010 00:56:42.190 --> 00:56:46.550 Why would you throw that goat off? And so... This 1011 00:56:46.630 --> 00:56:50.909 question is boggling my mind the whole ride over. So 1012 00:56:50.969 --> 00:56:55.730 as soon as the wheels land down in Jalalabad and 1013 00:56:55.769 --> 00:56:57.929 we get away from the rotor wash, I go grab 1014 00:56:57.949 --> 00:57:02.110 the interpreter. I'm like, hey, why did he kill that goat? 1015 00:57:02.230 --> 00:57:05.809 I thought he wanted that goat. And he said, and 1016 00:57:05.829 --> 00:57:11.719 apparently he says the 47 scared the goat and the 1017 00:57:11.780 --> 00:57:15.599 goat back legs launched off of his chest and he 1018 00:57:15.659 --> 00:57:18.500 tried to grab it. But from my angle, it looked 1019 00:57:18.519 --> 00:57:22.510 like he threw the goat off. So the poor goat 1020 00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:25.150 jumped to its death. But it was the weirdest thing 1021 00:57:25.190 --> 00:57:29.300 in the world to witness not knowing what's going on. 1022 00:57:30.039 --> 00:57:33.389 And I really feel like that sums up my experience. 1023 00:57:36.070 --> 00:57:39.570 I mean, honestly, you're lucky it was just one goat 1024 00:57:39.829 --> 00:57:42.750 because that could have started if there had been like 1025 00:57:42.769 --> 00:57:45.329 a flock or herd of goats out there, whatever it is, 1026 00:57:45.710 --> 00:57:48.420 like everybody would have wanted a goat. And you would 1027 00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:49.599 add a 47 full goat shit. 1028 00:57:49.619 --> 00:57:54.199 We would have started a horrible, a horrible precedence, uh, 1029 00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:56.780 of them based probably stealing goats and taking them on 1030 00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:59.519 the 47th. Yeah. And I'm sure, I'm sure that would 1031 00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:02.739 have been a, uh, a theater wide email at, uh, 1032 00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:03.500 at some point. 1033 00:58:03.519 --> 00:58:04.980 Pretty soon you're up to donkeys. Yeah. 1034 00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:10.000 You would, you would have been the Dr. Doolittle of Afghanistan, uh, 1035 00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:12.019 shepherding goats around on 47th. Yeah. 1036 00:58:13.340 --> 00:58:21.139 The, uh, that, that same trip, um, I'm in civilian clothes. 1037 00:58:21.179 --> 00:58:23.119 I'm getting ready to go on the ring route and 1038 00:58:23.179 --> 00:58:27.519 I have to go down to Bagram. I don't even, 1039 00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:31.010 either for op fund or for crypto. There's some reason 1040 00:58:31.050 --> 00:58:34.889 I had to go down to Bagram. So I'm in Jalalabad. 1041 00:58:34.929 --> 00:58:39.170 I'm in Jabad waiting for the ring flight. And this like, 1042 00:58:39.469 --> 00:58:43.210 this E5 or E6 guy comes up to me and goes, 1043 00:58:44.530 --> 00:58:47.150 and me, there's another guy with me on my team. 1044 00:58:47.190 --> 00:58:50.710 Can't remember who was with me. But he goes, hey, 1045 00:58:51.429 --> 00:58:55.760 you guys special forces? And, I mean, I'm wearing civilian clothes. 1046 00:58:55.800 --> 00:58:58.099 I mean, could have been a contractor, but, you know, 1047 00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:04.389 lucky guess. I'm like, yeah, we're special forces. And he's like, hey, 1048 00:59:04.389 --> 00:59:06.590 I've I've been looking for you guys. I've been, I've 1049 00:59:06.610 --> 00:59:08.489 been trying to call you guys, been trying to email 1050 00:59:08.510 --> 00:59:11.349 you guys. I'm really trying to get ahold of you guys. 1051 00:59:11.369 --> 00:59:14.639 I'm really glad I got to see you. And I'm thinking, what, 1052 00:59:15.400 --> 00:59:22.239 what email are you using? Like this whole thing starting 1053 00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:25.869 out weird already. And then he gets like, you know, 1054 00:59:25.989 --> 00:59:29.269 you know, real emotional. And he's like, Hey, man i'm 1055 00:59:29.449 --> 00:59:31.550 we're out at cotton to jill he goes it's uh 1056 00:59:31.690 --> 00:59:33.630 it's you know the next province over it's a really 1057 00:59:33.670 --> 00:59:37.150 small base he goes we're just waiting to die he 1058 00:59:37.170 --> 00:59:40.010 goes we're there's nothing we can do about it we're 1059 00:59:40.170 --> 00:59:43.719 just waiting to die i you know i have to 1060 00:59:43.780 --> 00:59:45.719 sit there and tell my guys that they're going to 1061 00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:49.420 be okay you know help is coming you know it's 1062 00:59:49.460 --> 00:59:51.539 not it's it's not that bad when i know it's 1063 00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:54.500 that bad and i'm like man that is that was 1064 00:59:54.519 --> 00:59:57.760 a horrible story um i was like look give give 1065 00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:02.320 me uh Give me your red line number and, um, we'll, uh, 1066 01:00:02.420 --> 01:00:04.400 we'll see what we can do. Okay. And he was like, 1067 01:00:04.420 --> 01:00:07.920 all right. And so he leaves. I canceled my ring 1068 01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:10.780 flight trip and I go back to, to the, uh, 1069 01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:13.019 to the team house, you know, and I go to the, 1070 01:00:13.179 --> 01:00:15.179 you know, the team leader on the team sergeant, like, Hey, like, 1071 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:17.570 you know, tell them the same story. I was like, uh, 1072 01:00:17.579 --> 01:00:19.800 you mind if I look into this? And I'm like, no. 1073 01:00:19.820 --> 01:00:20.179 Yeah. 1074 01:00:20.219 --> 01:00:23.480 Sounds, sounds like something you should look into. And again, that's, 1075 01:00:23.500 --> 01:00:26.449 what's really cool. And that'll always miss about, you know, 1076 01:00:26.489 --> 01:00:30.760 being on, being a green beret. is the autonomy to 1077 01:00:30.900 --> 01:00:34.500 do whatever you want. It's a lot of work, unfortunately, 1078 01:00:34.539 --> 01:00:37.650 to collect your own intel and to create your own 1079 01:00:37.710 --> 01:00:41.230 con ops, execute your own missions with only 12 guys 1080 01:00:41.269 --> 01:00:44.510 and a partner force. But it's all worth it at 1081 01:00:44.530 --> 01:00:48.070 times when you get to do things like this. And 1082 01:00:48.090 --> 01:00:50.829 so I call the guys up. I talk to their 1083 01:00:50.869 --> 01:00:55.269 first sergeant. It's a company-sized element out there, Comigil. And, uh, 1084 01:00:55.349 --> 01:00:57.130 without trying to throw that guy under the bus, trying 1085 01:00:57.150 --> 01:00:59.670 to feel out what's going on. And the first time 1086 01:00:59.690 --> 01:01:02.630 I was like, yeah, it's pretty bad out here. If can, 1087 01:01:02.809 --> 01:01:05.670 can you guys come out here? And I was like, okay, 1088 01:01:05.809 --> 01:01:08.010 I will, we'll come out and look. And, um, so 1089 01:01:08.050 --> 01:01:10.170 me and my team sergeant get on a black Hawk 1090 01:01:10.190 --> 01:01:12.309 and we, we fly out there to common jail to 1091 01:01:12.329 --> 01:01:15.840 see what's going on. And it's a. gosh, I wish 1092 01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:17.699 I could remember the state. I want to say it's 1093 01:01:17.719 --> 01:01:22.210 like an Illinois national guard unit, um, out there. And, uh, 1094 01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:24.300 they start telling me everything that's wrong. And I remember 1095 01:01:24.340 --> 01:01:29.010 thinking myself, uh, they're, they're screwing this up somehow. Like they're, 1096 01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:31.489 you know, they're, they're, they're being cowards or, you know, 1097 01:01:31.510 --> 01:01:35.050 this is what happens when you're not aggressive towards the enemy. And, uh, 1098 01:01:35.110 --> 01:01:37.710 you know, obviously that was like deep in the back 1099 01:01:37.730 --> 01:01:39.960 of my, in my mind, but yeah, I thought it. 1100 01:01:40.650 --> 01:01:43.590 And so I'm listening to these guys story and I'm, 1101 01:01:43.730 --> 01:01:46.860 and so I'm like, so, So you know the point 1102 01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.099 of origin where it's always coming from? They're like, well, 1103 01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:52.820 there's only three points of origin. I said, all right, 1104 01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:56.420 we'll send out an SR team and set up on 1105 01:01:56.460 --> 01:02:00.949 all three points of origin. There's nine, 10, 12 guys. 1106 01:02:00.989 --> 01:02:04.750 I know you're a company, but that's easily doable. They're like, 1107 01:02:05.610 --> 01:02:09.500 can't do that. We can't go out, and I'm going 1108 01:02:09.519 --> 01:02:12.420 to screw up the number a little bit, but we 1109 01:02:12.460 --> 01:02:15.099 can't go out with less than 12 people on a patrol. 1110 01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:18.159 He goes, and so with 12 people on a patrol, 1111 01:02:18.739 --> 01:02:23.610 if I'm to go put three people on those points 1112 01:02:23.650 --> 01:02:26.329 of origin, three teams of those points of origin, that's 1113 01:02:26.329 --> 01:02:31.710 36 people right there. that already puts us at full 1114 01:02:31.789 --> 01:02:34.909 strength for running operations because that means half the guys 1115 01:02:34.969 --> 01:02:36.710 are sleeping while the other half are out. And as 1116 01:02:36.730 --> 01:02:39.389 soon as those guys come back, those guys go out 1117 01:02:39.429 --> 01:02:43.110 on operations. And the only thing we've done is run 1118 01:02:43.139 --> 01:02:47.539 24-hour ops on three different point of origins, and we're 1119 01:02:48.380 --> 01:02:52.460 not even living. We're not doing– like you can't run 1120 01:02:52.519 --> 01:02:53.480 operations like that. 1121 01:02:53.539 --> 01:02:53.980 Right, right, right. 1122 01:02:54.590 --> 01:02:57.590 I'm like, I was like 12 guys delete these points 1123 01:02:57.670 --> 01:03:01.730 of these poos, if you will, are like 1200 meters away. 1124 01:03:01.769 --> 01:03:04.630 Like they're not that far. Like you have to 12 1125 01:03:04.630 --> 01:03:10.550 guys to go a click outside the wire. And he's like, absolutely. 1126 01:03:12.510 --> 01:03:16.679 And just, they couldn't, they couldn't drive. They couldn't drive 1127 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:18.900 down to the next village, which was only four or 1128 01:03:18.900 --> 01:03:23.469 500 meters outside their gate. without getting completely riddled and 1129 01:03:24.030 --> 01:03:27.380 have to turn back around. They couldn't get air support. 1130 01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:31.219 They asked for guys to do valley clearing operations. And 1131 01:03:31.239 --> 01:03:35.079 just the more I sat there with those guys, the 1132 01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:39.000 more the first sergeant, again, he was a National Guard 1133 01:03:39.139 --> 01:03:42.530 infantry first sergeant. He was a good dude. He was 1134 01:03:42.849 --> 01:03:45.329 just a solid guy. He had a lot of answers 1135 01:03:45.369 --> 01:03:47.349 and a lot of things he tried. But in the day, 1136 01:03:47.389 --> 01:03:51.269 they just weren't capable of solving this problem. And so 1137 01:03:52.329 --> 01:03:55.980 we went back and we did something that we rarely, 1138 01:03:56.139 --> 01:04:02.239 rarely do. We put the, I'm going to forget words now, 1139 01:04:02.340 --> 01:04:07.739 but the Kandak was broken up into three elements. Like 1140 01:04:07.820 --> 01:04:12.139 Kandak is already a battalion. So whatever, companies, yeah, sorry, companies. 1141 01:04:12.550 --> 01:04:14.949 So they're broken up into three companies and we were 1142 01:04:14.989 --> 01:04:19.789 going to bring two companies of commandos to clear this valley. 1143 01:04:20.619 --> 01:04:25.309 Which we've never done because they're on a red, orange, 1144 01:04:25.349 --> 01:04:28.190 and green training cycle. So they're always in third. So 1145 01:04:28.230 --> 01:04:33.170 to bring two companies forward was a big deal. The 1146 01:04:33.309 --> 01:04:36.429 SOTIF headquarters gave us a bunch of pushback. And they 1147 01:04:36.449 --> 01:04:38.909 were like, I don't know what you guys are talking about. 1148 01:04:39.010 --> 01:04:44.050 We've put SIGINT birds around there. We've asked our human mentors. 1149 01:04:44.250 --> 01:04:48.469 We're not getting anything in that area. They're asking us 1150 01:04:48.510 --> 01:04:51.539 to please go do something else. And we're like, no, 1151 01:04:51.559 --> 01:04:53.860 we've been on the ground. These guys are hurting. This 1152 01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:59.880 valley needs to be cleared. We set off on what 1153 01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:02.579 we called Operation Rockstar. That was back in the day 1154 01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:07.070 when ODAs could still name their own naming conventions before 1155 01:05:07.469 --> 01:05:14.949 people probably took some free speech liberties with naming their operations. 1156 01:05:15.610 --> 01:05:20.679 Operation Penthouse, you know, get approved. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 1157 01:05:21.269 --> 01:05:23.650 And I love it. And everyone got behind it, like 1158 01:05:23.710 --> 01:05:28.150 all the aviation support called all the HLZs, like Ringo 1159 01:05:28.789 --> 01:05:36.289 and HLZ Bon Jovi and everything. We inserted that night 1160 01:05:37.070 --> 01:05:45.489 and the helos, it was a long valley. And the 1161 01:05:45.510 --> 01:05:48.909 cop was at the very base of the valley. So 1162 01:05:48.929 --> 01:05:51.150 we were going to insert at the very Northern part 1163 01:05:51.429 --> 01:05:53.949 and then kind of like a hammer and anvil operation. So, 1164 01:05:54.269 --> 01:05:57.010 so the, so the base only had to basically be 1165 01:05:57.030 --> 01:06:00.190 the anvil of it. We would push them all down, uh, 1166 01:06:00.550 --> 01:06:03.550 all down the Valley, um, or at least contain them 1167 01:06:03.570 --> 01:06:07.389 in the Valley. We, we get, uh, we come into 1168 01:06:07.449 --> 01:06:11.159 fire as heavy fire as soon as, as soon as we, 1169 01:06:11.300 --> 01:06:14.139 as soon as we land. And, uh, and we're thinking. 1170 01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:16.860 And the SOTIF didn't even want to see it. Here 1171 01:06:16.920 --> 01:06:21.010 we are taking massive, you know, RPK fire from PKM 1172 01:06:21.030 --> 01:06:23.610 fire from the, from the mountainsides. And you told us 1173 01:06:23.630 --> 01:06:25.869 there was no one here. And that was just a bunch, 1174 01:06:25.909 --> 01:06:29.750 you know, a couple, basically a couple of low level crooks, 1175 01:06:30.090 --> 01:06:34.780 lobbing RPGs in the base every now and again. The, 1176 01:06:36.030 --> 01:06:41.159 our team leader immediately called, called Cass. That's a whole 1177 01:06:41.239 --> 01:06:43.300 nother story, but I'll touch it on it for just 1178 01:06:43.380 --> 01:06:47.429 a second. At the time, you had to have battalion-level 1179 01:06:47.469 --> 01:06:51.349 approval to call CAFs. We had a great team leader 1180 01:06:51.530 --> 01:06:55.460 who knew the rules, and there is a caveat to that. 1181 01:06:56.480 --> 01:07:00.019 During the infill of an operation, when they know you're vulnerable, 1182 01:07:00.219 --> 01:07:03.539 you do not have to call battalion for approval, and 1183 01:07:03.579 --> 01:07:06.710 you could immediately call CAFs from the ground. That's exactly 1184 01:07:06.730 --> 01:07:08.630 what he did. If he wouldn't have done that, we'd 1185 01:07:08.670 --> 01:07:12.289 have had a bunch of shot-up birds that night. So 1186 01:07:12.949 --> 01:07:19.199 he does that. we quell that. There's just these pockets 1187 01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:22.980 as we move, pockets and pockets and pockets. And most 1188 01:07:23.039 --> 01:07:26.179 of them were really from the sides of the mountain. 1189 01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:28.989 So it wasn't a whole lot of like close, you know, 1190 01:07:29.050 --> 01:07:32.369 personal type combat. But the type of combat that is, 1191 01:07:32.829 --> 01:07:35.769 it's great and it's great for numbers because really just 1192 01:07:35.809 --> 01:07:38.849 by you being in the valley is what stirs them up, 1193 01:07:39.170 --> 01:07:42.530 you know, on these mountain sides and there's air support 1194 01:07:42.570 --> 01:07:47.230 comes in and crushes them. Well, the very first one 1195 01:07:47.429 --> 01:07:50.090 that we called air support on was way up there. 1196 01:07:50.550 --> 01:07:54.130 And I wasn't on it, but we asked a couple 1197 01:07:54.150 --> 01:07:57.829 guys to go up there and do a BDA on that. 1198 01:07:57.909 --> 01:08:00.469 It took them hours to crawl up this mountain to 1199 01:08:00.510 --> 01:08:03.030 get to that BDA site. But when they did, what 1200 01:08:03.070 --> 01:08:07.699 we found were guys in ACUs and they were foreign fighters. 1201 01:08:07.860 --> 01:08:08.500 Holy shit. 1202 01:08:09.480 --> 01:08:13.800 And we found them all through the valley. Long story short, 1203 01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:15.800 by the time we get done with this valley and 1204 01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:18.020 get home, the guys who didn't want us even going 1205 01:08:18.079 --> 01:08:20.579 on the mission were giving us all sorts of kudos 1206 01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:23.399 and praises for one of the, for the, you know, the, 1207 01:08:23.500 --> 01:08:27.069 the biggest noble operations, you know, that, that we took 1208 01:08:27.250 --> 01:08:31.430 on and they didn't even want us to go. Um, our, 1209 01:08:32.149 --> 01:08:39.909 our captain, as soon as we get home, gets home, uh, gets, gets, um, uh, 1210 01:08:40.270 --> 01:08:45.079 where do I want to like, um, Temporarily fired or 1211 01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:48.210 we'll see if he's fired because the siege of sort 1212 01:08:48.229 --> 01:08:52.130 of commander wanted him on his on the carpet like 1213 01:08:52.250 --> 01:08:55.569 now because he heard that he didn't use the right 1214 01:08:55.649 --> 01:08:59.970 protocol for calling in Cass and he called in Cass. 1215 01:09:00.130 --> 01:09:03.270 without a battalion level approval and he sat there in 1216 01:09:03.310 --> 01:09:07.579 Bagram for like a week and then he sees the 1217 01:09:07.600 --> 01:09:10.840 Siege Assault of Commander tells the story and goes oh 1218 01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:15.380 I didn't know it was during infill you're good and 1219 01:09:15.420 --> 01:09:19.460 sends him back to the team while Fortunately for us, 1220 01:09:19.510 --> 01:09:22.390 while we're running amok for another solid week without our 1221 01:09:22.409 --> 01:09:27.989 team leader, I'm going on some great missions. But they 1222 01:09:28.029 --> 01:09:33.029 didn't deserve that. And again, that deployment was really one 1223 01:09:33.050 --> 01:09:37.090 of the moments that truly spurred me to say, and 1224 01:09:38.270 --> 01:09:41.439 as great as that deployment was, we got to save 1225 01:09:41.489 --> 01:09:44.100 those guys. When we got back to their camp, they 1226 01:09:44.279 --> 01:09:47.119 all gave us the biggest hug. And they're like, man, 1227 01:09:47.180 --> 01:09:50.119 thank you for saving our lives. We don't think we 1228 01:09:50.220 --> 01:09:53.399 were going home without you. Like you really feel like 1229 01:09:53.420 --> 01:09:58.340 you did something worthwhile. But there was a reoccurring theme 1230 01:09:58.619 --> 01:10:03.340 that deployment, which was this. Con ops had gotten crazy 1231 01:10:03.560 --> 01:10:08.439 to 20 and 30 pages. It was getting increasingly harder 1232 01:10:08.579 --> 01:10:11.039 to fight. You feel like you're fighting the enemy and 1233 01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:13.079 the SOTIF and Siege of SOTIF trying to get out 1234 01:10:13.100 --> 01:10:16.449 the door. if the enemy could move, as long as 1235 01:10:16.470 --> 01:10:20.380 the enemy moved every night, then he was moving faster than, than, 1236 01:10:20.560 --> 01:10:22.859 than we could keep up with because that con up 1237 01:10:22.899 --> 01:10:27.880 that was approved was, was for this location. Um, it got, 1238 01:10:28.279 --> 01:10:29.859 it got really disheartening. 1239 01:10:30.359 --> 01:10:33.359 I mean, what a, what a ridiculous, what a, what 1240 01:10:33.380 --> 01:10:36.779 a ridiculous situation that you have soldiers on the ground 1241 01:10:36.829 --> 01:10:38.729 there who are telling you, Hey, we're getting hit every night, 1242 01:10:39.289 --> 01:10:41.489 but higher is saying, well, we don't have it on SIGINT. 1243 01:10:41.529 --> 01:10:42.609 So I guess it's not happening. 1244 01:10:44.069 --> 01:10:51.510 It, The whole thing at a battalion and higher level, 1245 01:10:51.869 --> 01:10:57.930 not just within SF and within the military, really just 1246 01:10:57.970 --> 01:11:01.029 kind of started to disgust me. And if we weren't 1247 01:11:01.069 --> 01:11:03.810 there with such a solid team of good dudes who 1248 01:11:03.829 --> 01:11:05.970 were just willing to do whatever it took to get 1249 01:11:06.010 --> 01:11:08.569 out the wire, they really didn't have a good attitude, 1250 01:11:08.609 --> 01:11:11.789 generally speaking. They're like, okay, fine. You want 20 pages? 1251 01:11:12.609 --> 01:11:13.829 If that's what it takes to get out of the wire, 1252 01:11:13.850 --> 01:11:16.489 I'll give you 20 pages. You want 30 pages? Then 1253 01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:19.359 we'll get really efficient at writing 30 pages and we'll 1254 01:11:19.380 --> 01:11:22.859 get out of the wire. They were just a really 1255 01:11:23.060 --> 01:11:25.180 good team when it came to that that really could 1256 01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:29.920 have crushed other teams and did. And it did. What 1257 01:11:29.939 --> 01:11:30.699 year was this? 1258 01:11:31.319 --> 01:11:32.779 Do you remember? Roughly? 1259 01:11:32.779 --> 01:11:34.659 2009. 2009? 1260 01:11:34.659 --> 01:11:37.000 This is about McChrystal years. 1261 01:11:37.859 --> 01:11:41.140 Yeah. Because I remember talking to, um, 10 or 10, 2009, 2010. 1262 01:11:41.140 --> 01:11:43.319 Yeah. Yeah. 1263 01:11:44.619 --> 01:11:49.899 I remember talking to, uh, an SF soldier sometime in 1264 01:11:49.939 --> 01:11:53.050 like in the Oh eight to Oh nine timeframe. And 1265 01:11:53.090 --> 01:11:54.890 he said that if they were on target and they 1266 01:11:54.949 --> 01:11:56.810 fired their weapon, there would be a fifth. They had 1267 01:11:56.829 --> 01:11:59.649 to fill out a 15, six dash six. Like the, 1268 01:11:59.829 --> 01:12:05.670 that it just got so ridiculous for a while. Um, yeah. 1269 01:12:06.029 --> 01:12:10.920 And, and, I don't mind if the war warrants that. 1270 01:12:11.079 --> 01:12:14.680 If we're making results and we just don't need American 1271 01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:18.640 cowboys going on target just to spike the football every night, 1272 01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:25.859 I get that. As a younger soldier, I would have 1273 01:12:25.880 --> 01:12:28.100 never said that. I'd be like, as long as we're here, 1274 01:12:28.680 --> 01:12:31.680 we need to be out on target. I did get 1275 01:12:31.739 --> 01:12:34.380 a little bit older and wiser, but we weren't there yet. 1276 01:12:34.399 --> 01:12:40.220 I think the biggest... problem that i saw was ground 1277 01:12:40.260 --> 01:12:45.039 guys were reporting ground truth right i saw it firsthand 1278 01:12:45.619 --> 01:12:48.319 that those reports we had these like green yellow and 1279 01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:51.829 red reports about how they're doing planning wise how they're 1280 01:12:51.850 --> 01:12:55.770 doing logistically how they're how you know how their uh 1281 01:12:56.149 --> 01:12:58.920 how their training is going And we generally gave him 1282 01:12:58.979 --> 01:13:02.000 yellows and reds across the board, yet when you see 1283 01:13:02.039 --> 01:13:04.750 a polished product later up at a Siege of Sotus 1284 01:13:04.829 --> 01:13:09.970 level looking like everything's rosy, well, that's not what we said. 1285 01:13:10.210 --> 01:13:16.979 Right. It's always– and not to disparage military intelligence because– 1286 01:13:17.899 --> 01:13:19.340 there are a lot of two shops or a lot 1287 01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:21.680 of human, like there's a lot of good work in 1288 01:13:21.699 --> 01:13:25.439 the Intel, but there's also a lot of bureaucracy, bureaucracy 1289 01:13:25.479 --> 01:13:29.159 there where when guys like, like you were talking about 1290 01:13:29.180 --> 01:13:31.640 these guys, but when guys are on the ground are 1291 01:13:31.699 --> 01:13:35.079 reporting what's going on and then you have, you know, 1292 01:13:35.659 --> 01:13:39.119 two shops, you know, Intel shops going, no, we don't 1293 01:13:39.159 --> 01:13:41.739 have any intelligence to support us. Like, well, there's your 1294 01:13:41.779 --> 01:13:44.760 fucking intelligence. Like, why do you think your product is, 1295 01:13:45.300 --> 01:13:48.420 supersedes what these guys on the ground are telling you. 1296 01:13:49.699 --> 01:13:54.609 And that's part of unit history right there. There's been 1297 01:13:54.630 --> 01:13:56.729 a disconnect for a while. You can go all the 1298 01:13:56.770 --> 01:14:02.439 way back to... I'll get close, but Operation Anaconda in 2003? 1299 01:14:02.439 --> 01:14:05.720 Someone help me out on that, but it's got to 1300 01:14:05.739 --> 01:14:12.340 be close to that. Early war, where... These ground units 1301 01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:18.619 are saying, hey, there's a major collection of enemy personnel 1302 01:14:18.739 --> 01:14:22.859 in this area. And higher-ups going, nope, we sent over 1303 01:14:24.170 --> 01:14:27.770 ISR over there. Didn't see anything. And go, no, they're there. 1304 01:14:28.229 --> 01:14:31.569 And say, nope, we sent ISR over again. There's nothing there. 1305 01:14:32.310 --> 01:14:36.350 And then it took unit AFO troops to go up 1306 01:14:36.369 --> 01:14:39.329 there in twos and threes and live on the side 1307 01:14:39.350 --> 01:14:42.279 of a mountain for a few days and go– Holy crap. 1308 01:14:42.420 --> 01:14:46.039 This place is crawling with people. And, and even then, 1309 01:14:46.279 --> 01:14:48.420 like them kind of be like, well, we don't really 1310 01:14:48.439 --> 01:14:50.920 see it on, on ISR. That's one of the reasons 1311 01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:57.060 Operation Anaconda was such a debacle over relying on, on, 1312 01:14:57.279 --> 01:14:59.649 on ISR and not guiding the ground. 1313 01:14:59.970 --> 01:15:02.770 We, we jumped forward a little bit. You had talked 1314 01:15:02.810 --> 01:15:05.149 about that before this deployment, you had also, you'd gone 1315 01:15:05.170 --> 01:15:08.069 to selection beforehand and, Can you talk to us a 1316 01:15:08.090 --> 01:15:10.550 little bit about, um, when the idea of going to 1317 01:15:10.630 --> 01:15:13.100 trying out for the unit came about into your mind 1318 01:15:13.310 --> 01:15:14.880 and then like going to selection? 1319 01:15:17.500 --> 01:15:19.899 Uh, no, because I failed selection the first time. I 1320 01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:27.300 don't talk about my failures. Uh, the, uh, going to 1321 01:15:27.340 --> 01:15:33.920 selection the, uh, the, the first time, um, goes, goes 1322 01:15:33.979 --> 01:15:36.640 back to the, you know, the adage of, I didn't 1323 01:15:36.680 --> 01:15:40.640 want to, I didn't want to be done with my 1324 01:15:40.680 --> 01:15:43.180 military career. Not that I was thinking of retiring or 1325 01:15:43.199 --> 01:15:45.220 being done at any time real soon at that point. 1326 01:15:45.300 --> 01:15:47.720 But at this point in my career, I felt like, 1327 01:15:47.739 --> 01:15:50.369 you know, I went into the military, you know, check. I, 1328 01:15:51.039 --> 01:15:53.619 you know, I became a green beret because, you know, 1329 01:15:54.100 --> 01:15:57.100 you know, being in the regular military was, wasn't enough. 1330 01:15:57.390 --> 01:15:59.609 And then I was like, Hey, There was a small 1331 01:15:59.649 --> 01:16:02.729 group of guys within SF that I thought were even better. 1332 01:16:02.750 --> 01:16:08.409 And going to a dive team, check. I continued to 1333 01:16:08.789 --> 01:16:15.029 push myself and make it. I wanted to go to 1334 01:16:15.069 --> 01:16:17.270 war real bad. I went to war several times and 1335 01:16:17.289 --> 01:16:20.189 I felt like I was really good at it. Check. 1336 01:16:21.310 --> 01:16:26.569 I'm continuing to look for challenges, meet them. And there's 1337 01:16:26.600 --> 01:16:29.260 a couple of things going on. One, I wanted to 1338 01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:33.819 see how far I could go. I didn't think I 1339 01:16:33.859 --> 01:16:35.779 was the best guy on my team. And that's why 1340 01:16:36.659 --> 01:16:41.439 I needed to go to selection because you can't soar 1341 01:16:41.479 --> 01:16:44.439 with eagles when you're hanging around buzzards. It was nothing 1342 01:16:44.479 --> 01:16:48.380 like that. And in fact, I was probably the third 1343 01:16:48.439 --> 01:16:51.090 best guy on my team. I wasn't even the best 1344 01:16:51.100 --> 01:16:56.869 guy on my ODA. But I was the only guy 1345 01:16:56.890 --> 01:17:00.630 that went to selection and I, I did, I never 1346 01:17:00.729 --> 01:17:03.010 told anyone this, but I did get tired of hearing 1347 01:17:03.050 --> 01:17:07.789 a lot of people train up for selection and, you know, 1348 01:17:07.909 --> 01:17:10.960 going to sniper school, you know, and going to this 1349 01:17:11.020 --> 01:17:16.060 school and, you know, uh, like, um, and always like, uh, 1350 01:17:16.859 --> 01:17:20.840 collecting this, this, this perfect packet to go to selection with. 1351 01:17:20.960 --> 01:17:23.420 Cause they're, cause they're going to go to CAG, but they, 1352 01:17:23.619 --> 01:17:27.439 they forgot that. the most important part of the process, 1353 01:17:27.500 --> 01:17:31.699 which was going to selection. And so it's had a 1354 01:17:31.739 --> 01:17:35.090 lot of people talk about it, but never do it. 1355 01:17:35.340 --> 01:17:40.939 And so there's a lot of, and I knew even 1356 01:17:40.960 --> 01:17:44.229 before that deployment, handwriting was on the wall, deployments are 1357 01:17:44.250 --> 01:17:46.210 going to go away. Iraq was already starting to go 1358 01:17:46.250 --> 01:17:48.770 away at that time. You know, there were rumors of, 1359 01:17:49.010 --> 01:17:53.409 you know, of Afghanistan combat operations beginning to get questioned 1360 01:17:53.529 --> 01:17:57.390 and put into halt. and I wasn't done deploying and 1361 01:17:57.430 --> 01:17:59.409 I knew I could go to one other place and, 1362 01:17:59.590 --> 01:18:02.710 and hopefully, you know, continue to deploy and maybe even 1363 01:18:02.729 --> 01:18:04.890 deploy the rest of my career. So you kind of 1364 01:18:04.909 --> 01:18:08.670 take that, that whole, you know, that whole mound of evidence. 1365 01:18:08.890 --> 01:18:10.770 And that's what, that's what drove me to go to selection. 1366 01:18:12.449 --> 01:18:17.130 So took two shots, which is not abnormal at all. 1367 01:18:18.250 --> 01:18:20.250 Right. And in fact, I don't like, I like calling 1368 01:18:20.270 --> 01:18:23.310 the first one a recce. So the first one, the 1369 01:18:23.350 --> 01:18:26.239 first one was a recce. Um, and I made it 1370 01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:28.539 really far. Like I made it, uh, like the only 1371 01:18:28.560 --> 01:18:30.619 thing I didn't do was the 40 miler. And it 1372 01:18:30.640 --> 01:18:32.520 was definitely one of those things where you show up, 1373 01:18:32.699 --> 01:18:36.890 you know, and even though, um, you know, as an ODA, 1374 01:18:36.930 --> 01:18:39.729 you don't have this, like, yeah, I never felt this weird, uh, oh, 1375 01:18:39.770 --> 01:18:42.909 we're just 20th group. You know, like our ODAs always thought, 1376 01:18:42.949 --> 01:18:47.979 you know, had a, had, had nothing but, knew they 1377 01:18:47.989 --> 01:18:50.159 were good. And if you questioned it, we're more than 1378 01:18:50.180 --> 01:18:51.600 willing to prove it to you. So I'd never really 1379 01:18:51.619 --> 01:18:54.659 had this in my career, this, Oh, I'm just 20th 1380 01:18:54.699 --> 01:18:58.960 group until I showed up to selection. And I don't know, 1381 01:18:58.979 --> 01:19:03.239 it was just a bunch of really big guys and 1382 01:19:03.260 --> 01:19:05.810 you know, guys telling all these crazy stories and like, 1383 01:19:05.890 --> 01:19:08.050 I don't know, maybe, you know, maybe, maybe I am 1384 01:19:08.250 --> 01:19:10.489 out of, out of my league a little bit. And 1385 01:19:10.510 --> 01:19:14.050 then just slowly, you know, the days go by and 1386 01:19:14.090 --> 01:19:15.930 the days go by and the class gets smaller and 1387 01:19:15.970 --> 01:19:21.340 smaller and you're still here. And all those big loudmouth guys, 1388 01:19:21.560 --> 01:19:24.739 you know, didn't make time standard this day and that day. 1389 01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:29.060 And really by the end of it, it's probably a 1390 01:19:29.079 --> 01:19:31.300 dramatic way to say it. But you kind of know, 1391 01:19:31.319 --> 01:19:33.819 you know, on 300, like they get to the end 1392 01:19:33.859 --> 01:19:36.039 of it and they're like, we actually might win this thing. 1393 01:19:36.079 --> 01:19:37.640 You know, they kind of thought it was a suicide 1394 01:19:37.680 --> 01:19:40.869 mission and then they think they actually could pull it off. Um, 1395 01:19:40.930 --> 01:19:42.529 it's kind of like how I started the field. Like 1396 01:19:43.210 --> 01:19:45.850 actually I, you know, I'm looking at everyone around me 1397 01:19:45.869 --> 01:19:49.380 and I'm just as good as, as, as anyone here. Um, 1398 01:19:50.359 --> 01:19:52.840 I can, I can make this thing. Um, and as 1399 01:19:52.939 --> 01:19:56.479 soon as I, about as time I started feeling like that, uh, 1400 01:19:56.520 --> 01:20:00.199 I got cut. Um, and, uh, which was the very 1401 01:20:00.279 --> 01:20:03.470 end of it. And I remember going to the, um, 1402 01:20:05.710 --> 01:20:10.489 I won't talk about the, uh, we'll, we'll just, I got, 1403 01:20:10.609 --> 01:20:12.909 we'll just say this. I got interviewed at, at, at 1404 01:20:12.949 --> 01:20:18.420 the end. And, uh, the, the interviewer was like, um, uh, yeah, 1405 01:20:18.439 --> 01:20:20.100 I'm just, just not gonna, no, I'm not gonna talk 1406 01:20:20.119 --> 01:20:20.359 about it. 1407 01:20:20.380 --> 01:20:23.500 Did, did you, did you get good feedback as, in 1408 01:20:23.560 --> 01:20:26.960 terms of what you could improve if you came back? 1409 01:20:28.220 --> 01:20:28.380 No. 1410 01:20:28.739 --> 01:20:29.060 Okay. 1411 01:20:30.439 --> 01:20:30.939 All right. 1412 01:20:31.119 --> 01:20:34.569 Uh, I, I, um, I'll, I'll try, I, I do, 1413 01:20:34.930 --> 01:20:36.689 I don't mind coming on podcasts and I don't mind, 1414 01:20:36.710 --> 01:20:38.750 you know, uh, you know, talk about the unit and stuff, 1415 01:20:38.770 --> 01:20:41.609 you know, Uh, selection, you know, selection is sacred. 1416 01:20:41.939 --> 01:20:43.210 Yeah. We get it. 1417 01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:46.779 There's, and there's some things I will talk about. Um, 1418 01:20:46.859 --> 01:20:48.739 but yeah, I, I was, yeah, I was able to 1419 01:20:48.760 --> 01:20:50.239 talk to him at the end. He did ask me 1420 01:20:50.270 --> 01:20:52.930 some questions. Um, I'm afraid if I go into it, 1421 01:20:53.329 --> 01:20:55.250 I'll end up giving someone some answers. 1422 01:20:55.430 --> 01:20:57.609 But they, but they did welcome you to come back again, 1423 01:20:57.670 --> 01:20:58.229 try out again. 1424 01:20:59.380 --> 01:21:01.619 Yes. He, he, he asked me, he asked me how 1425 01:21:01.680 --> 01:21:03.800 I did. I told him I thought I did. Um, 1426 01:21:04.579 --> 01:21:06.680 I thought I did pretty well. And then he, he 1427 01:21:06.739 --> 01:21:08.970 laughed at me because he said, well, you're, you're sitting here. 1428 01:21:09.010 --> 01:21:11.609 You must not have done that well. And I was like, ouch. 1429 01:21:12.130 --> 01:21:12.649 Yeah. 1430 01:21:13.470 --> 01:21:17.890 That's pretty much true. We, we had a, uh, we 1431 01:21:17.909 --> 01:21:20.609 had a lively conversation after that. And, uh, I must've 1432 01:21:20.630 --> 01:21:23.829 said something right to, uh, to let them have pity 1433 01:21:23.930 --> 01:21:26.880 on me and, uh, bring me back for a second try. 1434 01:21:29.069 --> 01:21:33.630 And so, uh, I went, went deployed, uh, came, came back, 1435 01:21:33.829 --> 01:21:38.470 came back again and was, uh, was, was just, and 1436 01:21:38.489 --> 01:21:41.909 I truly mean this. I got just lucky enough to, to, 1437 01:21:41.989 --> 01:21:45.100 to get through the process. Yes. I trained for a 1438 01:21:45.420 --> 01:21:47.859 lot of guys did, you know, I was, I was 1439 01:21:47.899 --> 01:21:52.100 in the top third, you know, of the class whenever 1440 01:21:52.140 --> 01:21:54.560 we did anything, you know, I mean, I know physically 1441 01:21:54.640 --> 01:21:56.970 I deserve to be there. So, you know, why do 1442 01:21:56.979 --> 01:22:00.949 I feel lucky? because there are guys that were way 1443 01:22:01.010 --> 01:22:03.750 ahead of me and always ahead of me and, and 1444 01:22:03.789 --> 01:22:08.079 didn't make it. You know, it's just, it's a weird, it's, 1445 01:22:08.260 --> 01:22:11.199 it's a weird process that has, that has a, a 1446 01:22:11.279 --> 01:22:15.680 weird way of working, of working things out. And there's, 1447 01:22:15.779 --> 01:22:17.380 there's a saying that didn't make a whole lot of 1448 01:22:17.399 --> 01:22:20.649 sense at the beginning. And, and they'd say, Hey, we're 1449 01:22:20.670 --> 01:22:22.289 not looking for the best guy. We're looking for the 1450 01:22:22.329 --> 01:22:26.590 right guy. And I remember thinking to myself, wouldn't the 1451 01:22:26.630 --> 01:22:28.680 best guy be the right guy? Kind of doesn't make 1452 01:22:28.689 --> 01:22:33.340 a whole lot of sense. And again, just the longer 1453 01:22:33.439 --> 01:22:39.020 I was there, the truer that saying rang out was, 1454 01:22:39.739 --> 01:22:41.359 it's not the best guy, it's the right guy. So 1455 01:22:41.399 --> 01:22:44.279 I was just, again, lucky enough to be the right guy. 1456 01:22:44.859 --> 01:22:48.529 So you get picked up and then off to OTC. 1457 01:22:48.770 --> 01:22:50.810 And I mean, what was that experience like for you? 1458 01:22:50.829 --> 01:22:52.689 I mean, did you enjoy the training there? 1459 01:22:54.890 --> 01:22:57.470 Yeah, I'll tell you, I will tell you this about 1460 01:22:57.529 --> 01:23:04.529 selection because it'll roll into OTC as well. Selection, bar none, 1461 01:23:04.770 --> 01:23:06.840 I don't care where you've been, what you've done is 1462 01:23:06.850 --> 01:23:11.859 the most professional thing you will ever witness. And, you know, 1463 01:23:13.020 --> 01:23:15.279 I wish I could kind of go into detail and 1464 01:23:15.300 --> 01:23:17.899 tell you like what, you know, how professional it is 1465 01:23:17.939 --> 01:23:21.100 and how it'll blow your mind. But I'll just leave 1466 01:23:21.119 --> 01:23:23.729 it at that. It is, it is the most professional 1467 01:23:23.810 --> 01:23:27.119 thing you'll, you'll ever experienced. And I don't know if 1468 01:23:27.140 --> 01:23:29.170 you ever, you know, ever had this experience where you 1469 01:23:29.189 --> 01:23:32.850 go to a military school and things are there, they're run. Okay. 1470 01:23:32.869 --> 01:23:36.149 But the list little discombobulated and, you know, it makes 1471 01:23:36.189 --> 01:23:38.590 you feel at one point, like, is this your guy's 1472 01:23:38.630 --> 01:23:40.010 first time ever running this course? 1473 01:23:40.210 --> 01:23:42.510 Yeah. Are you just making this up as you go along? 1474 01:23:42.550 --> 01:23:42.750 Yeah. 1475 01:23:43.010 --> 01:23:44.680 Yeah. You got to have this figured out by now 1476 01:23:45.319 --> 01:23:49.479 that happens zero times ever in West Virginia. It is 1477 01:23:49.520 --> 01:23:53.380 the most professional thing you will ever. It's so professional. 1478 01:23:53.840 --> 01:23:57.550 We've had guys quit before because they saw the level 1479 01:23:57.569 --> 01:24:01.210 of professionalism in a course and just said, I'm not 1480 01:24:01.250 --> 01:24:05.750 that professional. I can't be this professional and I can't 1481 01:24:05.770 --> 01:24:11.020 meet this standard and select themselves off the professionalism of it. 1482 01:24:11.100 --> 01:24:17.579 So I'll absolutely say that the unit and selection deserves 1483 01:24:18.340 --> 01:24:23.739 that credit. And to be known for that. And OTC 1484 01:24:25.619 --> 01:24:29.920 was still professional. I say not as professionals. You know, 1485 01:24:29.979 --> 01:24:36.600 they it you messing up an OTC on a CQB 1486 01:24:36.659 --> 01:24:39.890 run and there will be a large muscular man yelling 1487 01:24:39.939 --> 01:24:42.329 at you from the catwalk, you know, letting you know 1488 01:24:42.470 --> 01:24:44.350 how much you suck and how much you probably don't 1489 01:24:44.390 --> 01:24:47.260 deserve to be here. And, you know, it is up 1490 01:24:47.279 --> 01:24:53.479 to you to deal with that information and react accordingly. 1491 01:24:55.890 --> 01:25:00.310 The two things that they gave me were this. I 1492 01:25:00.369 --> 01:25:07.750 felt challenged and I felt like the, you know, the 1493 01:25:07.829 --> 01:25:11.590 skill set that I was acquiring and the resources required to, 1494 01:25:11.829 --> 01:25:15.689 you know, needed to develop this type of skill set we're, 1495 01:25:15.750 --> 01:25:21.890 we're finally there. Like, um, it just, it's, it's like, 1496 01:25:22.270 --> 01:25:25.229 it's like being in a tactical Disney world. I mean, 1497 01:25:25.720 --> 01:25:29.149 just everything's at, at your fingertips. If you need it, 1498 01:25:29.500 --> 01:25:34.100 you'll get it. Um, it's without a doubt, the most 1499 01:25:34.140 --> 01:25:39.819 amazing place I've ever worked. And I almost feel bad 1500 01:25:39.880 --> 01:25:43.649 sometimes telling people like, how great I had it because 1501 01:25:43.729 --> 01:25:46.770 even though special operations and as a whole, generally speaking, 1502 01:25:46.810 --> 01:25:49.729 you know, have, have money and they have equipment, but 1503 01:25:50.250 --> 01:25:52.890 very few people really know what it's like to never 1504 01:25:52.949 --> 01:25:55.720 want for anything. 1505 01:25:55.729 --> 01:25:58.020 So what was it like, what was it like when 1506 01:25:58.060 --> 01:26:00.079 you graduated and showed up to your team and walk 1507 01:26:00.119 --> 01:26:01.560 into their team room that first day? 1508 01:26:03.500 --> 01:26:10.340 Um, I, I knew this, I knew when, um, when 1509 01:26:10.359 --> 01:26:14.260 I graduated OTC, it's one of the few times in 1510 01:26:14.340 --> 01:26:18.510 life where I feel like I took a moment and 1511 01:26:18.560 --> 01:26:24.369 thought to myself, hey, remember this. This may be the 1512 01:26:24.409 --> 01:26:28.329 greatest accomplishment of your life. I know maybe that even 1513 01:26:28.369 --> 01:26:31.789 sounds dramatic, but at least I felt aware enough to 1514 01:26:31.869 --> 01:26:36.140 know that this is something few people actually get to do. 1515 01:26:36.159 --> 01:26:38.939 At the end of the day, even if you make 1516 01:26:38.960 --> 01:26:42.140 selection but you don't make OTC, You did something great 1517 01:26:42.180 --> 01:26:44.760 that still very few people do, but it's not, you 1518 01:26:44.779 --> 01:26:50.000 don't feel good about not making it. Um, uh, and I, 1519 01:26:50.119 --> 01:26:53.779 but I knew at that point, even if they fired 1520 01:26:53.800 --> 01:26:57.930 me in six months, I was an operator and I, 1521 01:26:57.920 --> 01:27:02.060 you know, and I did, you know, I did this, 1522 01:27:02.310 --> 01:27:05.130 I accomplished this. I was good enough. I, you know, and, 1523 01:27:05.390 --> 01:27:07.470 and one of the very, uh, I'm in a part 1524 01:27:07.510 --> 01:27:10.569 of one of the smallest brotherhoods and all of the military. 1525 01:27:11.130 --> 01:27:17.600 And I enjoyed that moment. And then, of course, when 1526 01:27:18.239 --> 01:27:21.760 the realization of getting into your team room and that 1527 01:27:22.340 --> 01:27:28.000 what you thought was pretty good CQB, my first team 1528 01:27:28.039 --> 01:27:35.760 leader who did not hand out compliments ever to anyone, um, 1529 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:38.710 kind of let it slip that I graduated number one 1530 01:27:38.750 --> 01:27:40.909 in CQB, which I knew I, I knew I was 1531 01:27:40.930 --> 01:27:44.210 doing pretty good at this EQB, but he was letting 1532 01:27:44.229 --> 01:27:46.529 me know, he goes, uh, so you think, you think 1533 01:27:46.550 --> 01:27:49.569 you're good just because you graduated number one in CQB? What's, 1534 01:27:49.800 --> 01:27:52.460 it's not going to be fast enough here. And, uh, 1535 01:27:52.739 --> 01:27:55.590 and I looked at him and go, So I graduated 1536 01:27:55.609 --> 01:28:02.470 number one in CQB. I remember going like, no, that's 1537 01:28:02.510 --> 01:28:06.329 not what this is about. Forget that. That's not a compliment. 1538 01:28:06.729 --> 01:28:07.289 It's nothing. 1539 01:28:07.310 --> 01:28:07.800 I heard it. 1540 01:28:07.930 --> 01:28:08.250 I heard you. 1541 01:28:08.289 --> 01:28:08.449 Yeah. 1542 01:28:08.470 --> 01:28:09.189 Number one in CQB. 1543 01:28:09.210 --> 01:28:09.770 No big deal. 1544 01:28:09.869 --> 01:28:18.050 But he was absolutely. but yeah but uh he was 1545 01:28:18.289 --> 01:28:21.189 absolutely right man you you get over there and those 1546 01:28:21.569 --> 01:28:23.939 and they and they'll tell you this is usually a 1547 01:28:24.119 --> 01:28:27.119 pretty similar experience they'll go to the the shoot house 1548 01:28:27.140 --> 01:28:29.279 for the first the first couple you know the first 1549 01:28:29.300 --> 01:28:31.699 couple days and at least the first day the first 1550 01:28:31.739 --> 01:28:34.350 couple runs they'll tell you hey just hang out in 1551 01:28:34.390 --> 01:28:37.989 the back and don't try to shoot anything and that's 1552 01:28:38.409 --> 01:28:41.779 and uh and those and I'll always remember those first 1553 01:28:42.060 --> 01:28:46.479 few runs going, Ooh, yeah, that's, that's going to be 1554 01:28:46.520 --> 01:28:49.699 tough to keep up with. You know, uh, I, I 1555 01:28:49.739 --> 01:28:52.199 didn't feel like I didn't belong, but I knew that 1556 01:28:52.220 --> 01:28:55.020 I was about to get challenged again. And it, and 1557 01:28:55.060 --> 01:28:59.159 it was just, it was just another good feeling knowing that, 1558 01:28:59.779 --> 01:29:02.279 because it happens sometimes in our careers in special operations 1559 01:29:02.300 --> 01:29:04.479 where you make it to something and you're like, no, 1560 01:29:04.550 --> 01:29:06.510 it's good. And it's, I mean, it's really good, but 1561 01:29:06.529 --> 01:29:09.149 it's not exactly everything I thought it was going to be. 1562 01:29:09.350 --> 01:29:12.609 You know, you have those moments. Um, and you know 1563 01:29:12.649 --> 01:29:15.210 that the, the unit just never really gave me that moment. 1564 01:29:15.430 --> 01:29:17.949 I was, yeah, it is what you think it is. 1565 01:29:18.329 --> 01:29:20.149 It must be like on one hand as a new guy, 1566 01:29:20.170 --> 01:29:22.210 a little intimidating, but at the same time, you're like, 1567 01:29:22.390 --> 01:29:25.140 I'm with like the absolute top notch guys. I mean, 1568 01:29:25.180 --> 01:29:27.119 it must be awesome to be around that kind of talent. 1569 01:29:28.359 --> 01:29:35.140 It, um, That particular team leader loved his team to 1570 01:29:38.960 --> 01:29:42.479 have a lot of confidence, but to back it up 1571 01:29:42.560 --> 01:29:48.649 as well. I remember my first deployment going over there 1572 01:29:48.710 --> 01:29:55.850 with those guys. I have more than enough experience underneath 1573 01:29:55.869 --> 01:30:00.920 my belt of combat experience, but There's always this, when 1574 01:30:00.939 --> 01:30:06.729 you're on the white side, again, it's kind of like 1575 01:30:06.909 --> 01:30:10.869 National Guard and 20th Group. You know guys that went there, 1576 01:30:11.130 --> 01:30:13.890 but once they go over there, they go into a 1577 01:30:13.930 --> 01:30:15.710 black hole and you never talk to them again. You 1578 01:30:16.810 --> 01:30:19.189 hear rumors of what goes on over there, but no 1579 01:30:19.229 --> 01:30:22.289 one really knows. You hear that their target sets are 1580 01:30:22.329 --> 01:30:27.880 so much livelier. And, you know, when they go on target, 1581 01:30:27.899 --> 01:30:29.920 you know, it's always, it's always, uh, it's always a 1582 01:30:29.960 --> 01:30:33.220 lively night and you just hear these, these stories. And so, um, 1583 01:30:33.859 --> 01:30:36.930 you know, I was a little bit, you know, didn't 1584 01:30:36.949 --> 01:30:38.930 know what to think of the unknown, you know, on, 1585 01:30:39.130 --> 01:30:42.250 on my first deployment, but I do remember, you know, 1586 01:30:42.350 --> 01:30:44.409 being next to those guys and after, you know, running 1587 01:30:44.430 --> 01:30:48.670 through the shoe house with them and, um, watching them 1588 01:30:48.810 --> 01:30:52.289 in mission planning and decision-making and just how they carried 1589 01:30:52.329 --> 01:30:55.369 themselves day in and day out and how well they 1590 01:30:55.449 --> 01:30:59.619 knew their job. I remember getting on a helicopter going, 1591 01:31:00.180 --> 01:31:06.300 I'm good. I'm with these guys. I'm good. And still 1592 01:31:06.340 --> 01:31:09.800 feeling like I can contribute with these guys, but still 1593 01:31:09.859 --> 01:31:12.840 knowing these guys are going to take us home. 1594 01:31:12.859 --> 01:31:13.539 Yeah. 1595 01:31:14.819 --> 01:31:17.539 And that's what they did. And man, that's what they did. Those, those, 1596 01:31:17.699 --> 01:31:21.279 those guys were exactly who I thought they were. Uh, 1597 01:31:21.300 --> 01:31:23.260 as soon as we got into combat, they were great. 1598 01:31:23.399 --> 01:31:24.659 Just can't say enough good things about them. 1599 01:31:25.140 --> 01:31:26.810 And so at this point, I mean, you're, you're off 1600 01:31:26.819 --> 01:31:29.949 to the races. You did another, another eight deployments to 1601 01:31:29.970 --> 01:31:34.109 the middle East. Um, and I mean, what, what would, uh, 1602 01:31:34.289 --> 01:31:37.329 I mean, I don't know what, what you're comfortable talking about. 1603 01:31:37.350 --> 01:31:39.710 I mean, are there any particular operations that stand out 1604 01:31:39.729 --> 01:31:43.119 in your mind or any particular experiences that you think are, uh, 1605 01:31:43.699 --> 01:31:46.180 significant either to you personally or, or maybe to the 1606 01:31:46.220 --> 01:31:49.060 history of, of special operations, frankly. 1607 01:31:51.239 --> 01:31:52.729 I could have done without getting shot. 1608 01:31:54.430 --> 01:31:54.840 I get it. 1609 01:31:57.069 --> 01:32:00.649 Stands out. I was, I was running pretty clean there for, uh, 1610 01:32:00.989 --> 01:32:04.750 you know, probably going into almost double digit deployments and, uh, 1611 01:32:05.250 --> 01:32:08.029 you know, everyone on my team had a purple heart. And, uh, 1612 01:32:08.869 --> 01:32:12.500 but then I, I do remember, uh, Um, I'll, you know, 1613 01:32:12.520 --> 01:32:14.199 I'll say this about the night I got, I got shot. 1614 01:32:14.590 --> 01:32:19.609 I was, I was getting more, um, more aggressive and 1615 01:32:19.630 --> 01:32:22.949 more aggressive, you know, and things that, that I, I probably, 1616 01:32:23.350 --> 01:32:25.880 I knew they weren't like flagrant, but I knew that 1617 01:32:26.140 --> 01:32:28.680 I probably shouldn't have been doing business that way and 1618 01:32:28.720 --> 01:32:32.420 that there was probably a smarter way to do business. But, 1619 01:32:32.439 --> 01:32:34.560 you know, it's not like I just, you know, turned 1620 01:32:34.640 --> 01:32:38.520 into like an aggressive retard. Like I just, I'd slowly 1621 01:32:39.090 --> 01:32:42.270 continue to go down this, you know, this, this path 1622 01:32:42.390 --> 01:32:44.670 and got away with it and then got away with it, 1623 01:32:45.149 --> 01:32:47.409 you know, and even, you know, a couple of times, like, 1624 01:32:47.489 --> 01:32:50.140 you know, got to kill, you know, some people that I, 1625 01:32:50.470 --> 01:32:52.140 that I wouldn't have been in a good position to 1626 01:32:52.180 --> 01:32:57.319 kill otherwise. And so it, you know, kind of reinforces that, Hey, 1627 01:32:57.340 --> 01:33:00.020 just the most aggressive guy, the fastest guy wins and 1628 01:33:00.039 --> 01:33:03.590 always wins. And that's just how it is. Um, And 1629 01:33:03.609 --> 01:33:08.050 that is true 99% of the times. And you, you, 1630 01:33:08.350 --> 01:33:10.829 you play like that long enough. You, you will roll 1631 01:33:10.890 --> 01:33:11.470 snake eyes. 1632 01:33:12.270 --> 01:33:12.470 Yeah. 1633 01:33:12.949 --> 01:33:16.350 And, and, and, and I rolled snake eyes one night, 1634 01:33:17.380 --> 01:33:21.060 way too close, way too far, you know, on squatter patrol, 1635 01:33:21.300 --> 01:33:24.300 squatter control, you know, a click away out from the 1636 01:33:24.359 --> 01:33:27.819 rest of the assault element, continuing to engage a guy, 1637 01:33:27.920 --> 01:33:31.220 engage guys and get drawn further and further out. And 1638 01:33:31.279 --> 01:33:35.850 even knowing that and being like, Hey, we're, you know, there's, 1639 01:33:35.859 --> 01:33:38.710 you know, we just got away with that last one 1640 01:33:38.729 --> 01:33:42.289 and there's, there's more people, you know, behind, you know, 1641 01:33:42.470 --> 01:33:45.710 in this next group, I probably shouldn't go that far 1642 01:33:45.850 --> 01:33:49.319 and I should probably, you know, plus up another operator 1643 01:33:49.340 --> 01:33:52.939 or two, you know, if, if we're going to do that, uh, 1644 01:33:53.020 --> 01:33:58.579 and then just going, nah, we got this. Uh, and, uh, and, and, 1645 01:33:58.659 --> 01:34:03.270 and we did not. So I got shot. Our combo 1646 01:34:03.310 --> 01:34:07.010 guy that was with us got shot. I got hit 1647 01:34:07.050 --> 01:34:10.260 by a grenade about five seconds later after getting shot. 1648 01:34:11.859 --> 01:34:16.699 Another round skipped off and shot my nods in half. 1649 01:34:16.859 --> 01:34:21.600 So my panos were dangling on my face. Just shot 1650 01:34:21.659 --> 01:34:26.090 up and in a really bad way and really lucky 1651 01:34:26.659 --> 01:34:31.640 to get out of there. But we did. And it, it, 1652 01:34:32.000 --> 01:34:38.409 it didn't, it didn't change me to, to, um, to 1653 01:34:38.449 --> 01:34:42.670 being like hesitant or scared. Uh, I truly think it, it, 1654 01:34:43.109 --> 01:34:47.270 it reset me to exactly where, where I needed to be. Right. Um, I, 1655 01:34:47.609 --> 01:34:49.680 I don't think I would have ever operated scared. It's 1656 01:34:49.720 --> 01:34:52.119 just not who I am. I, if, if I think 1657 01:34:52.159 --> 01:34:54.060 I couldn't have got out of that, I don't, I 1658 01:34:54.079 --> 01:34:57.300 don't just medically retired at that point. I just, you know, 1659 01:34:57.319 --> 01:34:59.989 that's just not. how I'm cut. So I either just 1660 01:35:00.010 --> 01:35:02.270 would have been like, well, I lost it and it's 1661 01:35:02.310 --> 01:35:04.750 not for me. But, uh, you know, the whole time 1662 01:35:04.810 --> 01:35:07.930 that I was in rehab, I could not wait to 1663 01:35:07.949 --> 01:35:11.449 get back on the battlefield. I couldn't wait. Um, I don't, 1664 01:35:11.479 --> 01:35:14.159 I know it sounds maybe weird to some people, but 1665 01:35:14.420 --> 01:35:18.140 I couldn't wait to kill someone again and to prove like, Hey, 1666 01:35:18.520 --> 01:35:21.159 that's not how my career ends. There's no way that, 1667 01:35:21.399 --> 01:35:23.079 you know, I felt like my career would ended on 1668 01:35:23.119 --> 01:35:26.939 a mistake. So I worked As hard as I possibly 1669 01:35:26.979 --> 01:35:29.739 could to get back out there and then to, you know, 1670 01:35:29.760 --> 01:35:34.520 I don't know, validate myself still. I don't know the 1671 01:35:34.560 --> 01:35:38.340 right way to kind of describe it. But that small reset, 1672 01:35:39.220 --> 01:35:41.020 if I would have continued on that path, I would 1673 01:35:41.050 --> 01:35:41.859 have died in Syria. 1674 01:35:41.859 --> 01:35:43.859 100%. 1675 01:35:43.930 --> 01:35:50.109 That Syria was such a different game. You think you 1676 01:35:50.149 --> 01:35:55.310 know IEDs, you know, in Afghanistan. Yeah. you don't, you 1677 01:35:55.329 --> 01:35:57.890 don't know what it's like until ISIS retreats from a 1678 01:35:57.930 --> 01:36:05.180 village and leaves about 3000 IEDs everywhere on every road, 1679 01:36:05.520 --> 01:36:09.840 on every courtyard, in the walls of houses, puts them 1680 01:36:09.939 --> 01:36:15.239 on timers, puts them on IR trip devices, just an 1681 01:36:15.539 --> 01:36:19.880 absolute IED debacle. Um, and, and they were more than, 1682 01:36:19.920 --> 01:36:21.779 and they were smart. Like they were, they were more 1683 01:36:21.819 --> 01:36:26.159 than willing to, uh, to, um, use your grip, your 1684 01:36:26.180 --> 01:36:31.220 aggressiveness against you and pull you into situations, uh, only to, 1685 01:36:31.359 --> 01:36:33.310 only to find out too late. Uh, yeah, we may have, 1686 01:36:33.739 --> 01:36:35.229 that that's, that's what they wanted us to do. 1687 01:36:35.430 --> 01:36:35.689 Right. 1688 01:36:36.119 --> 01:36:41.090 Um, this really was, uh, a formidable enemy and, and 1689 01:36:41.189 --> 01:36:46.210 some aspects, um, and in other aspects, they're, they're just 1690 01:36:46.510 --> 01:36:48.510 dumb terrorists like the rest of them. So they're, they're 1691 01:36:48.569 --> 01:36:51.729 definitely a dynamic there with ISIS, but I hate, man, 1692 01:36:51.770 --> 01:36:55.079 I really did. I, I really hated ISIS. on a, 1693 01:36:55.210 --> 01:36:58.109 on a level that at the end of the day, 1694 01:36:58.130 --> 01:37:01.189 I kind of respected the Taliban after operating in Iraq, 1695 01:37:02.310 --> 01:37:05.920 guys in Iraq were just so quick to, to surrender, 1696 01:37:06.020 --> 01:37:08.260 you know, at times and just, and just take their, 1697 01:37:08.779 --> 01:37:11.829 take their chances with the judicial system. At least in, 1698 01:37:12.039 --> 01:37:16.310 at least in Afghanistan, generally speaking, they were willing to 1699 01:37:16.569 --> 01:37:21.350 fight it out with you. And it was almost more 1700 01:37:21.390 --> 01:37:25.409 like a tribal war as well. Like, I don't know, again, 1701 01:37:25.430 --> 01:37:26.890 I'm not going to sit here and give too much, 1702 01:37:27.449 --> 01:37:29.909 too much respect and credence to the Taliban as if 1703 01:37:29.949 --> 01:37:33.130 there's some sort of legitimate government, you know, fighting for 1704 01:37:33.170 --> 01:37:37.329 their existence and they're, they're, they're horrible people, but compared 1705 01:37:37.590 --> 01:37:42.399 to ISIS, uh, they, you know, I, I can, I 1706 01:37:42.439 --> 01:37:44.960 view them in two, two different categories. 1707 01:37:45.340 --> 01:37:46.079 Yeah. 1708 01:37:46.399 --> 01:37:49.439 The Taliban wasn't so much into like the flagrant war 1709 01:37:49.520 --> 01:37:51.680 crimes and stuff like that, that ISIS was. 1710 01:37:53.220 --> 01:37:53.319 Yeah. 1711 01:37:53.359 --> 01:37:55.319 I mean, they, they had it, you know what I mean? 1712 01:37:55.340 --> 01:37:58.500 They were, they were capable of it, but they, they, the, 1713 01:37:58.819 --> 01:38:02.159 the amount when ISIS was willing to do it, they 1714 01:38:02.180 --> 01:38:03.920 were willing to do it often and do it on 1715 01:38:03.960 --> 01:38:05.050 a very large scale. 1716 01:38:05.649 --> 01:38:05.859 Right. 1717 01:38:06.350 --> 01:38:08.229 And, uh, and they were, and they were willing to 1718 01:38:08.289 --> 01:38:11.569 do it, you know, to kids as, as much as anyone. 1719 01:38:11.590 --> 01:38:11.909 Right. 1720 01:38:11.970 --> 01:38:16.069 They were, they were just, they were just a different 1721 01:38:16.470 --> 01:38:20.850 breed of evil. And I, I, I remember, you know, seeing, 1722 01:38:22.560 --> 01:38:24.949 You know, seeing ISIS dead bodies, just looking down on 1723 01:38:24.970 --> 01:38:29.279 them with absolutely no remorse or no, you know, in 1724 01:38:30.689 --> 01:38:33.090 struggle going, man, that was someone's son. You know, that 1725 01:38:33.109 --> 01:38:35.609 was someone's father. But just looking at them and absolutely 1726 01:38:35.710 --> 01:38:38.520 not caring and being like, that's just a two-legged dog. 1727 01:38:38.939 --> 01:38:41.520 You know, wish there were more next to him. I 1728 01:38:41.550 --> 01:38:44.489 just really disliked them on another level. 1729 01:38:44.550 --> 01:38:46.689 Could we talk a little bit more about Assyria? Because 1730 01:38:46.710 --> 01:38:49.430 you mentioned that that was like a totally different environment. 1731 01:38:50.569 --> 01:38:54.569 And you guys presumably working with the SDF. And was 1732 01:38:54.609 --> 01:38:57.670 it more of like a UW environment than some of 1733 01:38:57.710 --> 01:38:58.449 the other deployments? 1734 01:39:00.329 --> 01:39:04.100 Yeah, I'll tell you, that was an SF mission all 1735 01:39:04.140 --> 01:39:09.090 day long. That was an SF mission. We had... way 1736 01:39:09.149 --> 01:39:13.289 too few guys doing way too much. Um, you know, 1737 01:39:13.390 --> 01:39:17.180 and for people who really aren't set up to partner with, with, 1738 01:39:17.229 --> 01:39:21.720 with other units, um, it, and I will tell you 1739 01:39:21.760 --> 01:39:24.460 why SF didn't get that mission and they wanted it. 1740 01:39:24.520 --> 01:39:26.859 Fifth group wanted it so bad. In fact, there was 1741 01:39:26.920 --> 01:39:30.119 a plan to give it over to them. Uh, when 1742 01:39:30.140 --> 01:39:31.800 we got to Raka, we were going to hand it 1743 01:39:31.880 --> 01:39:36.560 over to them. Um, and then cooler minds prevailed. So 1744 01:39:36.579 --> 01:39:38.310 I was like, it's a horrible idea. Like that's like, 1745 01:39:38.850 --> 01:39:41.760 It's like handing it over at halftime. They either take 1746 01:39:41.779 --> 01:39:44.939 it over now or they don't take it at all. 1747 01:39:45.600 --> 01:39:48.239 Don't turn it over to them right as they're getting 1748 01:39:48.319 --> 01:39:52.699 to the climax and you need to be a well-oiled 1749 01:39:52.760 --> 01:39:59.609 machine fighting their capital at the most and then give 1750 01:39:59.649 --> 01:40:02.550 it to a new guy to figure out all their 1751 01:40:02.649 --> 01:40:10.770 initial problems. The reason... SF didn't get it is because SF, 1752 01:40:11.750 --> 01:40:14.229 the same reason I started to not like SF at 1753 01:40:14.270 --> 01:40:18.229 the end, they quit trusting their ground guys. They required 1754 01:40:18.510 --> 01:40:24.689 too much, um, oversight and that, that war was going 1755 01:40:24.829 --> 01:40:28.390 too fast. If you, if to slow them down with 1756 01:40:28.890 --> 01:40:34.090 the protocols that, that they would inevitably do. Um, so, uh, 1757 01:40:35.949 --> 01:40:38.430 the unit does a great job at trusting their ground 1758 01:40:38.470 --> 01:40:42.210 guys that, you know, they, you know, I never, never 1759 01:40:42.250 --> 01:40:45.890 had an issue, uh, you know, being questioned or asking 1760 01:40:45.949 --> 01:40:48.189 why am I doing this or why do I need that? 1761 01:40:48.569 --> 01:40:50.869 I just tell them what I'm doing and I tell 1762 01:40:50.890 --> 01:40:53.609 them what I need. And, uh, you know, and, and 1763 01:40:53.649 --> 01:40:57.430 if you don't give them a reason, you know, to, to, uh, 1764 01:40:57.689 --> 01:41:00.050 to question you, they, they, they, they never will. Um, 1765 01:41:00.939 --> 01:41:04.399 and so the, my first trip was very, was very 1766 01:41:04.479 --> 01:41:08.180 unique because it was, it was still, I wouldn't even 1767 01:41:08.220 --> 01:41:11.340 call it UW. Like it was, it was, it was 1768 01:41:11.420 --> 01:41:16.659 closer to, to World War II. Like, you know, we had, 1769 01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:20.159 you had friendly lines, you had enemy lines and there was, 1770 01:41:21.420 --> 01:41:24.060 there was, there was, there was no in between, you know, and, 1771 01:41:24.699 --> 01:41:28.130 and even weirder than that at times, it was like, 1772 01:41:28.149 --> 01:41:30.710 you know, we called it a banker's war. Like no one, 1773 01:41:31.789 --> 01:41:33.609 no one fought at night. They didn't, they didn't have 1774 01:41:33.649 --> 01:41:35.930 night vision, you know? So, you know, when the sun 1775 01:41:36.310 --> 01:41:38.590 came up and everyone woke up and, and, and ate 1776 01:41:38.630 --> 01:41:41.989 some breakfast, they started lobbing mortars, you know, and right 1777 01:41:42.010 --> 01:41:44.439 before dinnertime, when everyone got hungry, they, you know, they, 1778 01:41:44.520 --> 01:41:47.399 they packed it up and, and, uh, you know, and, 1779 01:41:47.520 --> 01:41:51.039 and waited for the sun to come back up. Um, that's, yes, 1780 01:41:51.260 --> 01:41:54.640 that's a little bit of a, you know, satire way to, 1781 01:41:54.760 --> 01:41:57.579 to describe it. Cause it was very unlike that at times, 1782 01:41:57.800 --> 01:42:00.760 but there is, there, there is a lot of truth, uh, 1783 01:42:02.300 --> 01:42:06.779 to that as well. Um, there were times, you know, 1784 01:42:06.960 --> 01:42:10.550 if you were to, you know, have a fire or, 1785 01:42:10.699 --> 01:42:13.710 or even allow generator, like it would, it would, it 1786 01:42:13.750 --> 01:42:16.390 would get you some, some mortar rounds at night. I mean, they, 1787 01:42:16.430 --> 01:42:17.710 they would come out and play at night if you 1788 01:42:17.729 --> 01:42:19.750 gave them a reason to, but generally speaking, if you 1789 01:42:19.770 --> 01:42:22.829 didn't give them a reason to, um, they were just, 1790 01:42:23.010 --> 01:42:25.710 it was just a very much a, um, this was 1791 01:42:25.750 --> 01:42:27.470 a good side. This was the bad side. They're in 1792 01:42:27.510 --> 01:42:31.829 this village. We're in this village. There's, two cliques of 1793 01:42:31.930 --> 01:42:35.500 open ground between the two villages, and we're going to 1794 01:42:35.539 --> 01:42:37.859 fight it out to see who's either going to lose 1795 01:42:37.880 --> 01:42:42.539 this village or gain this village. And for us as 1796 01:42:42.579 --> 01:42:49.819 a sniper, it really pushed us to lean heavily into 1797 01:42:50.739 --> 01:42:53.369 what we started to call at the time ELR, extreme 1798 01:42:53.409 --> 01:42:56.010 long range, because everything at the time was 800 meters 1799 01:42:56.050 --> 01:43:00.420 and in, 800 meters if you're lucky with a. 308. Well, 1800 01:43:00.420 --> 01:43:04.550 308 wasn't going to do anything from 2,000 meters away, 1801 01:43:04.569 --> 01:43:08.869 but that's where our engagements are. And so now we've 1802 01:43:08.890 --> 01:43:14.069 always had 338s, but we never really dusted them off 1803 01:43:14.130 --> 01:43:18.039 and used them with a lot of, you know, extremely 1804 01:43:18.220 --> 01:43:22.739 at these engagements. And now, you know, we're finding out, 1805 01:43:22.819 --> 01:43:27.039 you know, the way we use our, yeah, I would 1806 01:43:27.079 --> 01:43:30.920 have a tripod that, and a, you know, and a 1807 01:43:30.960 --> 01:43:35.689 pillow for my, uh, for my laser range finder, like 1808 01:43:35.739 --> 01:43:40.810 things that I've never had to do before, but, you know, uh, 1809 01:43:40.829 --> 01:43:42.810 you know, I would, I would have a $ 3, 000 really 1810 01:43:42.869 --> 01:43:46.050 right stuff tripod just, just for my laser range finder 1811 01:43:46.529 --> 01:43:50.020 because comes to find out, you know, at 2,200 meters away, 1812 01:43:50.609 --> 01:43:54.340 if I'm just a little bit off, uh, and I 1813 01:43:54.420 --> 01:43:56.939 lays the, you know, the building in front of the 1814 01:43:56.979 --> 01:44:00.010 building I'm, I'm, you know, I'm trying to get, you know, 1815 01:44:00.109 --> 01:44:02.569 I'm off, you know, I'm off by, by 50 meters 1816 01:44:03.170 --> 01:44:06.439 and that 50 meters. Now my elevation is drastically different 1817 01:44:07.180 --> 01:44:09.960 and I'm never going to hit my target at 2000 meters, 1818 01:44:10.119 --> 01:44:12.000 even though that, you know, that three through eight is 1819 01:44:12.039 --> 01:44:13.760 more than capable of making a 2000 meter shot. So, um, 1820 01:44:16.850 --> 01:44:20.930 I either just excited some of your nerdy shooter audience, 1821 01:44:21.170 --> 01:44:23.590 or I just put to sleep some of the guys 1822 01:44:23.630 --> 01:44:28.869 who just like direct action. We learned a lot about 1823 01:44:28.930 --> 01:44:32.189 our equipment and about our guns in Syria. It was 1824 01:44:32.229 --> 01:44:34.409 a very, very different war. 1825 01:44:35.189 --> 01:44:38.100 Do you find the. 338, once you guys dialed it in, 1826 01:44:38.109 --> 01:44:41.659 that you guys were pretty effective using that weapons platform 1827 01:44:41.819 --> 01:44:42.479 at those ranges? 1828 01:44:44.020 --> 01:44:47.899 Yeah, that. 338. trade was great. It was, uh, the, 1829 01:44:48.000 --> 01:44:50.390 the one thing that we w we would go back 1830 01:44:50.439 --> 01:44:54.729 and forth is when you get over 2000 meters, the 1831 01:44:54.789 --> 01:44:58.689 problem we'd run into is spotting your misses. Even though 1832 01:44:58.729 --> 01:45:00.829 you think the 338 is, is a, is a large 1833 01:45:00.869 --> 01:45:03.670 round and man, it, it, it is. Um, but you 1834 01:45:03.689 --> 01:45:08.229 can easily not see a miss at 2000 meters. Um, 1835 01:45:08.430 --> 01:45:11.729 and if you can't see your minutes, then you can 1836 01:45:11.770 --> 01:45:14.529 keep throwing all you want, but now you're just, you know, 1837 01:45:14.949 --> 01:45:18.199 trying to get lucky. And even though the 50 cal 1838 01:45:18.340 --> 01:45:23.149 is not as accurate as a three, three, eight, at 1839 01:45:23.250 --> 01:45:25.449 least you can see your misses. And it's, you know, 1840 01:45:25.550 --> 01:45:27.630 especially if you put like a roughest round, you know, 1841 01:45:27.729 --> 01:45:30.949 inside there, you can, you know, you can seeing your, 1842 01:45:31.050 --> 01:45:34.229 your misses in that environment becomes a lot easier. And 1843 01:45:34.390 --> 01:45:38.159 even though it's not as accurate, you know, I, I 1844 01:45:38.180 --> 01:45:41.659 at least can, you know, can make a, an informed 1845 01:45:41.680 --> 01:45:44.319 decision on, on a correction, which I just couldn't with 1846 01:45:44.380 --> 01:45:49.300 a three, three, eight. Right. And did the really change 1847 01:45:49.319 --> 01:45:51.239 the way we operated a lot from long distance? 1848 01:45:51.779 --> 01:45:51.960 Yeah. 1849 01:45:52.060 --> 01:45:55.140 Did the reliance on the sniper platforms have to do 1850 01:45:55.199 --> 01:46:00.000 with the air support not being as quick as it 1851 01:46:00.060 --> 01:46:01.939 was in Afghanistan or Iraq? 1852 01:46:03.619 --> 01:46:06.600 No, we we we were the only game in town, 1853 01:46:06.619 --> 01:46:09.310 so we always we always got kind of got what 1854 01:46:09.350 --> 01:46:12.680 we wanted. It has more to do with guys hanging 1855 01:46:12.739 --> 01:46:16.529 out in windows or hanging out or being underneath structures 1856 01:46:16.609 --> 01:46:19.609 that an aerial platform isn't really going to be able 1857 01:46:20.310 --> 01:46:24.029 to see as well as someone from a ground level. 1858 01:46:25.649 --> 01:46:26.890 Now, did you guys. 1859 01:46:26.989 --> 01:46:29.949 And if I called in an airstrike, I really have 1860 01:46:29.970 --> 01:46:32.020 a hard time saying that's my kill. So I'm at 1861 01:46:32.060 --> 01:46:33.800 least going to try to couple throw rounds at it 1862 01:46:33.880 --> 01:46:35.899 before I call in an airstrike. Yeah. 1863 01:46:36.439 --> 01:46:41.720 Now, between the 338 and the 50, did you guys 1864 01:46:41.779 --> 01:46:45.279 experiment at all with like the 300 Win Mags or 1865 01:46:45.300 --> 01:46:48.140 anything like that, you know, for that sort of medium 1866 01:46:48.220 --> 01:46:49.140 range type of? 1867 01:46:50.699 --> 01:46:55.140 Yeah, the 300 Win Mag just wasn't a platform we 1868 01:46:55.279 --> 01:46:59.689 used and no particular reason. You know, the SF groups, 1869 01:46:59.890 --> 01:47:01.850 to my knowledge, I think are the only ones that 1870 01:47:01.970 --> 01:47:05.140 use that 300 Win Mag. And it's a great round. 1871 01:47:05.159 --> 01:47:09.939 I mean, it's a laser round. The ballistics of that 1872 01:47:10.039 --> 01:47:13.750 round is absolutely great. It doesn't have a great barrel 1873 01:47:13.789 --> 01:47:19.930 life to it. And unfortunately, the SF groups purchased that 1874 01:47:20.310 --> 01:47:22.069 and they didn't do a good job of having a 1875 01:47:22.329 --> 01:47:26.250 kind of a barrel replacement plan. They probably had one 1876 01:47:26.289 --> 01:47:28.720 of the great medium range or one of the best 1877 01:47:28.779 --> 01:47:33.939 medium range long guns in the arsenal for anyone. but with, uh, 1878 01:47:34.100 --> 01:47:35.439 most of the barrels were shot out. 1879 01:47:35.600 --> 01:47:35.859 Yeah. 1880 01:47:36.079 --> 01:47:38.539 Ended up not as, as, as great as they should 1881 01:47:38.560 --> 01:47:38.800 have been. 1882 01:47:39.039 --> 01:47:41.760 Yeah. Cause I know some, that's something that seals use 1883 01:47:41.800 --> 01:47:44.520 quite a bit and, and they seem to be very 1884 01:47:44.560 --> 01:47:45.140 happy with it. 1885 01:47:46.840 --> 01:47:48.149 Uh, do they use a 300 as well? 1886 01:47:48.159 --> 01:47:50.430 Uh, I, I believe so. They, they use it in 1887 01:47:50.470 --> 01:47:51.289 their sniper school. 1888 01:47:51.409 --> 01:47:51.670 I know. 1889 01:47:51.810 --> 01:47:53.989 So, okay. Yeah. Yeah. 1890 01:47:54.090 --> 01:47:55.350 We didn't even, we didn't even, the only thing we 1891 01:47:55.390 --> 01:47:59.810 even use, I went to group SOTIC and, um, uh, 1892 01:47:59.970 --> 01:48:04.539 and level one SOTIC, um, Gosh, I got to think 1893 01:48:04.579 --> 01:48:10.319 what's SIFSIC or SIFSIC, if you will, special forces sniper course. 1894 01:48:10.319 --> 01:48:13.729 And we only use 308s, you. 1895 01:48:13.270 --> 01:48:18.039 Know, yeah 308 yeah not 338 308 yeah oh i said. 1896 01:48:17.539 --> 01:48:20.260 So as uh as these deploy you know you're you're 1897 01:48:20.279 --> 01:48:22.079 going back and forth from syria i mean how did 1898 01:48:22.119 --> 01:48:24.720 you see the the campaign evolve over time. 1899 01:48:28.510 --> 01:48:32.130 The the campaign was was pretty straightforward really you know 1900 01:48:32.210 --> 01:48:34.930 even though we handed off to other squadrons you know 1901 01:48:34.949 --> 01:48:39.050 they it was they really you know um encountered the 1902 01:48:39.090 --> 01:48:42.510 same things we did and, and, you know, worked very similarly. 1903 01:48:42.550 --> 01:48:44.010 So really it was just like, you know, when you 1904 01:48:44.109 --> 01:48:46.649 come in and out, it was just, it's just picking 1905 01:48:46.689 --> 01:48:50.899 back up where you left off. Um, I, and between, 1906 01:48:50.909 --> 01:48:55.859 and between rotations, um, I missed the, the, uh, the fall, 1907 01:48:55.979 --> 01:48:58.239 the fall of Raka. So I'm sure that would have 1908 01:48:58.260 --> 01:49:01.520 been a lot different. And I'll tell you why I 1909 01:49:01.560 --> 01:49:04.539 feel like it's a lot, it was a lot different. Um, 1910 01:49:05.000 --> 01:49:08.600 Because when I showed up to Rocko very shortly after 1911 01:49:08.680 --> 01:49:11.439 the fall of Rocko, I remember driving around that place 1912 01:49:11.500 --> 01:49:15.449 at night feeling like I was at the opening of 1913 01:49:15.810 --> 01:49:21.750 Terminator when there's just bombed out buildings just everywhere in 1914 01:49:21.789 --> 01:49:29.859 this dark, smoky atmosphere. I've never seen damage at that 1915 01:49:30.000 --> 01:49:34.170 scale to a city the way we leveled Rocko. We 1916 01:49:34.369 --> 01:49:38.390 absolutely leveled Raqqa, and rightfully so. 1917 01:49:38.810 --> 01:49:39.010 Yeah. 1918 01:49:40.109 --> 01:49:42.069 And I have to ask, too, while we have you here, 1919 01:49:42.149 --> 01:49:44.529 I mean, did you have any involvement in the Baghdadi raid? 1920 01:49:45.909 --> 01:49:49.159 No, that was the very first deployment I missed. 1921 01:49:51.380 --> 01:49:59.039 Gotcha. So hit Raqqa, and what happened from there? I mean, 1922 01:49:59.539 --> 01:50:01.760 you said that you actually went into the city at 1923 01:50:01.840 --> 01:50:02.140 one point? 1924 01:50:03.560 --> 01:50:12.409 Oh yeah. Well, from, um, uh, from there we went 1925 01:50:12.529 --> 01:50:19.409 back into a more, uh, traditional, um, uh, high value 1926 01:50:19.430 --> 01:50:24.300 target hunting. So the, the, the war, the traditional war 1927 01:50:24.399 --> 01:50:27.859 is over. Um, and then that, that kicked off a 1928 01:50:27.960 --> 01:50:32.050 much more fun part of, of Syria, uh, where we 1929 01:50:32.090 --> 01:50:36.100 went back into quick strikes and a lot of them 1930 01:50:36.260 --> 01:50:39.859 and had a great time. That was probably my most 1931 01:50:39.899 --> 01:50:44.079 enjoyable trip would have been after the fall of that. And, 1932 01:50:45.060 --> 01:50:47.149 you know, some of those guys pretending like they can 1933 01:50:47.159 --> 01:50:49.329 just put down their guns and melt back into the 1934 01:50:49.369 --> 01:50:55.010 population and the Kurds will just forget about them. Nope, 1935 01:50:55.670 --> 01:50:58.869 the Kurds didn't forget about you. And they told us 1936 01:50:58.909 --> 01:50:59.449 where we were at. 1937 01:51:00.760 --> 01:51:03.699 And these are the, from the outside looking in, the 1938 01:51:03.739 --> 01:51:07.069 occasional like CENTCOM press reports that somebody flew in in 1939 01:51:07.109 --> 01:51:09.850 black helicopters in the night and hashed out business with 1940 01:51:09.869 --> 01:51:10.449 the bad guys. 1941 01:51:11.609 --> 01:51:15.689 Yeah. Yeah. It happened a lot more than. 1942 01:51:16.069 --> 01:51:18.479 The press releases. 1943 01:51:18.819 --> 01:51:20.600 There was no need for the press to get wind 1944 01:51:21.079 --> 01:51:23.579 of any of it. 1945 01:51:23.659 --> 01:51:27.659 What was that like for you and, you know, your 1946 01:51:27.720 --> 01:51:31.869 fellow soldiers in the sense of, There was, you know, 1947 01:51:31.890 --> 01:51:34.409 the press might report on it occasionally. Like, we had 1948 01:51:34.449 --> 01:51:38.819 just had these two very long wars, right, that were 1949 01:51:38.939 --> 01:51:41.220 in and out of the media, but there was a 1950 01:51:41.260 --> 01:51:45.739 national awareness about it. But then Syria comes, and it's 1951 01:51:45.819 --> 01:51:49.140 not in the national consciousness the way these other wars are, 1952 01:51:49.180 --> 01:51:51.520 but we have troops that are fighting, same as we 1953 01:51:51.560 --> 01:51:54.119 do in parts of Africa and stuff. But what was 1954 01:51:54.159 --> 01:51:55.180 that like for you guys? 1955 01:51:57.439 --> 01:51:59.979 I welcomed it. Well, I shouldn't say I welcomed it. 1956 01:52:00.850 --> 01:52:02.590 at the time I didn't know about it. I mean, 1957 01:52:02.630 --> 01:52:05.109 really like, you know, when you're in that world, like 1958 01:52:05.170 --> 01:52:08.609 I don't, if I don't know what the news is 1959 01:52:08.670 --> 01:52:10.560 reporting on or what they're not reporting on. 1960 01:52:10.689 --> 01:52:10.949 Yeah. 1961 01:52:11.060 --> 01:52:12.939 I live in a very, I lived in a, in 1962 01:52:12.979 --> 01:52:17.079 a very, uh, almost in a bubble, you know, do 1963 01:52:17.100 --> 01:52:19.479 your job, go home. You're right. 1964 01:52:19.500 --> 01:52:19.680 Yeah. 1965 01:52:19.800 --> 01:52:21.739 Do your job, go home. And when I'm home, I'm, 1966 01:52:21.920 --> 01:52:24.279 I'm training for my next job, you know? So I don't, 1967 01:52:24.300 --> 01:52:26.460 you know, I don't have time to listen to see what, 1968 01:52:26.560 --> 01:52:28.119 you know, to see if the, what the news is 1969 01:52:28.180 --> 01:52:31.609 reporting about Syria. I, you know, I, I live it 1970 01:52:31.649 --> 01:52:34.229 in Syria. I don't, you know, the only time I 1971 01:52:34.270 --> 01:52:36.329 would see anything on the news is someone like, you know, 1972 01:52:37.210 --> 01:52:38.970 showed it to us and say, Hey, this is, this 1973 01:52:39.029 --> 01:52:43.149 is what they're talking about. Um, or if something got leaked, 1974 01:52:43.170 --> 01:52:45.079 you know, if something got leaked, we'd always, you know, 1975 01:52:45.119 --> 01:52:47.159 we'd always know it. You know, they, they'd always, uh, 1976 01:52:47.239 --> 01:52:49.579 you know, show it to us that something got leaked 1977 01:52:49.619 --> 01:52:52.800 and try to, um, so like those are, those are 1978 01:52:52.819 --> 01:52:53.520 far and few between. 1979 01:52:55.300 --> 01:52:59.979 Would they try to like, like, scare you guys straight, 1980 01:53:00.020 --> 01:53:00.920 find out who did it. 1981 01:53:01.140 --> 01:53:05.840 Like, no, most, uh, most of the time, uh, those, 1982 01:53:06.119 --> 01:53:09.689 those leaks would, uh, would have come from, um, a 1983 01:53:09.729 --> 01:53:15.489 partner force or, um, you know, someone, um, someone at a, 1984 01:53:15.609 --> 01:53:18.829 at a much higher level in the military that, that they, 1985 01:53:18.850 --> 01:53:20.029 you know, they knew was way. 1986 01:53:20.069 --> 01:53:25.760 Yeah. It's not somebody in the three X or. That's right. Yeah. 1987 01:53:25.880 --> 01:53:26.380 Yeah. 1988 01:53:26.420 --> 01:53:26.600 Yeah. 1989 01:53:26.699 --> 01:53:30.800 It's not even somewhat JSOC related. Yeah. Like it's someone 1990 01:53:30.939 --> 01:53:35.409 that's at a theater like sitcom level that has a 1991 01:53:35.470 --> 01:53:40.970 relationship with Fox News and leaked it. That's usually where 1992 01:53:41.510 --> 01:53:43.130 something along those lines. 1993 01:53:43.350 --> 01:53:43.590 Yeah. 1994 01:53:44.869 --> 01:53:48.329 So from that time period, is there any other like 1995 01:53:48.350 --> 01:53:50.449 significant missions that kind of stand out for you? 1996 01:53:53.600 --> 01:53:57.390 I won't go into... great detail about it. And I 1997 01:53:57.390 --> 01:53:59.949 don't mean to do that as a teaser, but I'll, I'll, 1998 01:54:00.149 --> 01:54:03.050 I'll say this more or less to kind of set 1999 01:54:03.289 --> 01:54:06.689 the record straight on it. Um, it's another thing that it's, 2000 01:54:07.840 --> 01:54:10.500 it's funny what, what does get news traction, what doesn't 2001 01:54:10.520 --> 01:54:14.460 get news traction. Um, what should have been a, a 2002 01:54:14.539 --> 01:54:16.920 much bigger story and was it, and I'll talk about it. 2003 01:54:16.920 --> 01:54:19.140 Cause like I said, you, you can Google it. Um, 2004 01:54:20.000 --> 01:54:24.939 you know, John Dunbar, you know, dying in Syria. Um, and, uh, 2005 01:54:25.380 --> 01:54:28.439 and Matt Tonroe, which was a British SAS guy, which 2006 01:54:28.479 --> 01:54:31.260 was right next to him when he died, should, should 2007 01:54:31.279 --> 01:54:32.979 have been a huge news story. You know, if you 2008 01:54:33.000 --> 01:54:35.100 think about it, I mean, you got a Delta force 2009 01:54:35.140 --> 01:54:37.279 guy and a British SAS guy dying on the, on 2010 01:54:37.319 --> 01:54:43.630 the same target. When has that ever happened? You know, that's, that's, um, that, that's, uh, 2011 01:54:43.680 --> 01:54:46.189 that was crazy. That's never happened in the history of, 2012 01:54:46.600 --> 01:54:49.560 of either one of our, uh, of our existence yet 2013 01:54:49.600 --> 01:54:52.770 in Syria, that was without a doubt a first. Um, 2014 01:54:53.380 --> 01:54:55.539 But that ended up being a bigger news story in Syria, 2015 01:54:55.560 --> 01:55:01.079 I mean, in England, because we had told our people 2016 01:55:01.140 --> 01:55:06.100 that we obviously have ground troops and combat operations happening 2017 01:55:06.149 --> 01:55:12.890 in Syria. They weren't as forthcoming with it, with the SAS. 2018 01:55:13.329 --> 01:55:16.449 And so when the news hit that an SAS guy 2019 01:55:16.510 --> 01:55:20.270 died in Syria, a lot of the public was like, whoa, 2020 01:55:20.489 --> 01:55:21.489 what's going on here? 2021 01:55:21.510 --> 01:55:21.670 You guys. 2022 01:55:23.159 --> 01:55:25.279 said that we were kind of there in a support role. 2023 01:55:25.340 --> 01:55:30.119 That doesn't seem like a support role. One of the 2024 01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:39.890 worst misconceptions of that mission is that newspapers reported that 2025 01:55:39.909 --> 01:55:43.210 it was fratricide that killed him. 2026 01:55:43.529 --> 01:55:45.470 I do remember something about that. 2027 01:55:45.869 --> 01:55:47.250 But it was an IED, wasn't it? 2028 01:55:49.220 --> 01:55:51.779 And there is a problem with it. You use terms 2029 01:55:51.800 --> 01:55:56.550 like IED, which you're right, but people assume like roadside 2030 01:55:56.600 --> 01:55:58.710 bomb IEDs. Because that's what, you know, when you talk 2031 01:55:58.729 --> 01:56:03.729 about IEDs, it's what it almost always is. We were 2032 01:56:03.770 --> 01:56:08.350 dismounted at the time, really close to target, to a 2033 01:56:08.609 --> 01:56:17.680 bomb maker's target. He had early warning and his... like 2034 01:56:17.840 --> 01:56:23.899 an IED makeshift Claymore went off and John took the 2035 01:56:23.939 --> 01:56:26.930 brunt of that, but it set off his wall charge. 2036 01:56:28.689 --> 01:56:31.289 And his wall charge is what, is what killed Matt. 2037 01:56:31.470 --> 01:56:34.149 And that is, and that story, you know, that story 2038 01:56:34.229 --> 01:56:38.229 is out there, but generally speaking, it'll say, Hey, it 2039 01:56:38.250 --> 01:56:41.770 was a fratricide and, you know, he died due to 2040 01:56:41.789 --> 01:56:45.539 a friendly explosion. they'll, they'll say it in ways that, 2041 01:56:45.720 --> 01:56:48.300 that are, that kind of really, um. 2042 01:56:48.760 --> 01:56:50.500 Yeah, it's a sympathetic explosion. 2043 01:56:50.539 --> 01:56:52.600 It's not jump around the truth. 2044 01:56:52.859 --> 01:56:53.140 Yeah. 2045 01:56:53.680 --> 01:56:55.859 I like the way they say that. Cause it's, so let's, 2046 01:56:56.460 --> 01:56:59.329 it would be like writing a story and saying, um, 2047 01:56:59.350 --> 01:57:04.590 you know, Sergeant first class Smith died in Afghanistan due 2048 01:57:04.670 --> 01:57:09.470 to a fuel, a gas tank explosion in his Humvee. Well, 2049 01:57:10.090 --> 01:57:13.279 did the IED set off the gas tank explosion? Right. 2050 01:57:13.600 --> 01:57:13.859 Yes. 2051 01:57:14.420 --> 01:57:16.939 Well, but the gas tank killed him. Like that makes, 2052 01:57:17.159 --> 01:57:19.600 you know, nowhere in the history do, do we ever, 2053 01:57:19.619 --> 01:57:21.659 do we ever say that? I don't know the, why, 2054 01:57:21.840 --> 01:57:25.090 why we do it here. Um, it was the direct 2055 01:57:25.170 --> 01:57:28.649 cause of, you know, of, of direct contact with the 2056 01:57:29.670 --> 01:57:31.590 newspaper stories were written. 2057 01:57:32.189 --> 01:57:32.470 Yeah. 2058 01:57:32.949 --> 01:57:36.569 That's so differently that, that, that painted it insinuated differently. 2059 01:57:36.670 --> 01:57:39.840 I just, it, it's sort of the way fact checkers 2060 01:57:39.880 --> 01:57:45.600 work sometimes, right? Is, is they, they, I mean, technically 2061 01:57:46.439 --> 01:57:49.300 what they're saying that it was an American explosive that 2062 01:57:49.340 --> 01:57:52.729 killed them is true, but they're missing, but, but they're 2063 01:57:52.789 --> 01:57:56.050 leaving out really how it all went down. 2064 01:57:57.090 --> 01:58:00.449 Yeah. That's like, that's one way. 2065 01:58:00.609 --> 01:58:04.680 Yeah. It's sort of like saying that somebody who died from, 2066 01:58:04.840 --> 01:58:08.550 you know, from enemy fire died from blood boss. It's like, Yeah, 2067 01:58:08.649 --> 01:58:12.060 they did die from blood loss. right right yeah but 2068 01:58:12.159 --> 01:58:15.340 that's that's so true but they didn't just start bleeding. 2069 01:58:14.939 --> 01:58:20.350 And i could and you know the the uh i 2070 01:58:20.369 --> 01:58:22.869 don't remember which newspaper but you know the the um 2071 01:58:24.960 --> 01:58:27.699 In England, they did a whole investigation on it and 2072 01:58:27.720 --> 01:58:30.619 then wrote a report saying this is the official report 2073 01:58:30.880 --> 01:58:33.840 off of it and sent it out as official record. 2074 01:58:34.460 --> 01:58:38.840 And again, it's technically true, but I feel like it's 2075 01:58:38.899 --> 01:58:44.449 wildly misleading and doesn't do justice, honestly, to either one 2076 01:58:44.729 --> 01:58:49.670 of the guys who were warriors. I mean, they were both. Truly, 2077 01:58:49.949 --> 01:58:53.430 truly good men. I'll tell you a story just real 2078 01:58:53.470 --> 01:58:59.270 quick about Matt Tunray was an SAS guy. That guy 2079 01:58:59.840 --> 01:59:01.880 would he'd have to go on a helicopter every now 2080 01:59:01.899 --> 01:59:04.479 and again and go, you know, and go visit other 2081 01:59:04.520 --> 01:59:08.180 places where they were at. And if he found out 2082 01:59:08.239 --> 01:59:10.220 that we were we were going on a on a 2083 01:59:10.279 --> 01:59:14.060 mission that night. he would do everything in his power 2084 01:59:14.180 --> 01:59:16.560 to get his helo to come in sooner or see 2085 01:59:16.609 --> 01:59:19.140 if we would push the mission later. Cause he didn't 2086 01:59:19.239 --> 01:59:23.779 want to miss a single target. He was absolutely addicted 2087 01:59:23.840 --> 01:59:26.760 to going on missions. And I love that about him. 2088 01:59:26.979 --> 01:59:30.220 Cause you know, that's, that's, that's the way you want every, 2089 01:59:31.199 --> 01:59:33.739 every one of your guys to, you know, to be. 2090 01:59:34.180 --> 01:59:38.279 And so just, it's very unfortunate that you know, that 2091 01:59:38.659 --> 01:59:41.180 he lost his life in Syria and in that manner. 2092 01:59:41.710 --> 01:59:48.729 Because he absolutely represented his unit. You couldn't do a 2093 01:59:48.750 --> 01:59:50.970 better job of representing those guys. 2094 01:59:51.970 --> 01:59:55.890 And so how did this start to wind down for you? 2095 01:59:55.949 --> 01:59:58.210 I mean, it sounds like you really rode this wave 2096 01:59:58.229 --> 02:00:03.609 throughout your career, did some amazing things. and you had 2097 02:00:03.630 --> 02:00:06.850 a great, you know, 20 years in the military. I mean, what, 2098 02:00:06.909 --> 02:00:08.649 what was it sort of like for you? Like you, 2099 02:00:08.750 --> 02:00:11.350 you must have some inkling that like, this is coming. 2100 02:00:11.550 --> 02:00:13.829 I'm not going to be able to be an operator forever. 2101 02:00:13.850 --> 02:00:17.399 I mean, what was that transition like for you? Yeah. 2102 02:00:17.500 --> 02:00:19.520 I mean, I was, I was deep in my thirties and, 2103 02:00:19.579 --> 02:00:21.739 you know, almost, you know, a decade at the time on, 2104 02:00:21.960 --> 02:00:24.979 on a team, um, you know, which my team time was, 2105 02:00:25.119 --> 02:00:30.720 was coming to an end. Um, the, uh, what, what really, 2106 02:00:30.739 --> 02:00:33.520 you know, kind of did it for me was, you know, 2107 02:00:33.539 --> 02:00:36.699 after that, after that Syria trip, we had, we had been, uh, 2108 02:00:36.939 --> 02:00:38.560 we were, we were doing training the way we always 2109 02:00:38.579 --> 02:00:43.609 do training. Um, and, uh, I, I was just unfortunate 2110 02:00:43.630 --> 02:00:45.649 enough to be close to a couple of really big 2111 02:00:46.010 --> 02:00:50.750 kind of training explosions that, that, that just really, they, 2112 02:00:50.850 --> 02:00:55.850 they really rocked me. Um, And unlike earlier, you know, there's, 2113 02:00:56.050 --> 02:00:58.869 you know, I'd been near those, those size explosions before, 2114 02:00:59.149 --> 02:01:01.529 but for whatever reason, you know, at this point in 2115 02:01:01.550 --> 02:01:05.369 my life, you know, maybe it just finally shook something loose. Um, 2116 02:01:05.569 --> 02:01:08.810 I was, I was having some, some, some real, some 2117 02:01:08.829 --> 02:01:12.800 real issues. Uh, so we'd, we'd get, and, and what 2118 02:01:12.810 --> 02:01:14.819 would happen is almost every time we'd go back to, 2119 02:01:15.020 --> 02:01:18.319 to do an explosive training, like these, these mental issues would, would, 2120 02:01:18.420 --> 02:01:21.319 would rear back up almost like, like, like, like a 2121 02:01:21.380 --> 02:01:24.989 re-injury of it. Um, it would get to a point 2122 02:01:25.979 --> 02:01:28.560 where like just simple stuff. Like I, you know, I'd 2123 02:01:28.579 --> 02:01:31.060 have to, I would, I would write notes in my, 2124 02:01:31.479 --> 02:01:33.699 in my locker to tell, to tell me where I 2125 02:01:33.720 --> 02:01:36.539 parked my car because I would just go wandering out 2126 02:01:36.579 --> 02:01:39.159 in the parking lot and looking for it. And it's 2127 02:01:39.199 --> 02:01:42.909 a massive parking lot. And I feel like the first 2128 02:01:42.949 --> 02:01:45.710 time it really felt odd to me because usually when 2129 02:01:45.729 --> 02:01:48.489 you see your car, you're like, Oh, that's right. That's, 2130 02:01:48.989 --> 02:01:51.390 that's right. That's where I parked my car. But like 2131 02:01:51.430 --> 02:01:53.029 to see the car for the first time, be like, 2132 02:01:54.189 --> 02:01:56.970 that's not, did someone move my car? And literally going 2133 02:01:57.029 --> 02:01:59.949 in there and starting to accuse, you know, Hey, who 2134 02:01:59.989 --> 02:02:02.680 moved my car? Like I was parked, you know, at 2135 02:02:02.689 --> 02:02:04.239 the right. And like, Brent, no one moved your car. 2136 02:02:04.260 --> 02:02:05.439 I parked right next to you. That's where you parked 2137 02:02:05.460 --> 02:02:09.079 this morning. I'm like, Oh yeah, that's right. Um, you know, 2138 02:02:09.100 --> 02:02:12.859 I'm trying to play it off and, you know, I mean, 2139 02:02:12.899 --> 02:02:14.319 I go on and on and on, but one of the, 2140 02:02:14.340 --> 02:02:17.319 you know, the weirder stories is, you know, go, you know, 2141 02:02:17.619 --> 02:02:20.439 taking the, taking the wife and kids to church and 2142 02:02:20.550 --> 02:02:26.300 just driving. And at some point, having your wife put 2143 02:02:26.560 --> 02:02:29.590 her hand on your hand and be like, do you 2144 02:02:29.630 --> 02:02:37.149 know where we're going? I'm like, no. No, I don't 2145 02:02:37.170 --> 02:02:39.710 know where we're going right now. We're all dressed up 2146 02:02:39.750 --> 02:02:42.470 kind of nice, and so I'm going to guess we're 2147 02:02:42.510 --> 02:02:45.899 going to church. But no, I don't know what day 2148 02:02:45.920 --> 02:02:47.720 it is. I don't know where we're going. And I 2149 02:02:48.439 --> 02:02:51.359 was with my wife, like, here. you're going to go 2150 02:02:51.430 --> 02:02:56.550 talk to someone Monday or, or I will. And, uh, um, 2151 02:02:56.850 --> 02:03:00.350 and my, my team time was, was, I was within, yeah, 2152 02:03:00.449 --> 02:03:02.710 I had one more deployment left, you know, really. I mean, 2153 02:03:02.729 --> 02:03:08.069 I was, um, so it was, it, it, it felt right. Yeah. And, um, 2154 02:03:09.069 --> 02:03:11.770 I felt, I felt complete with my career. I mean, 2155 02:03:11.810 --> 02:03:14.680 really Syria was great, man. I love Syria. Um, but 2156 02:03:14.689 --> 02:03:17.079 when I got home from that last trip, I, I don't, 2157 02:03:17.100 --> 02:03:19.439 you know, just something clicked. I was like, you know what, 2158 02:03:20.399 --> 02:03:22.840 every trip I couldn't wait for the next one. And 2159 02:03:22.880 --> 02:03:26.380 it's not that I didn't have the hunger, didn't want 2160 02:03:26.560 --> 02:03:29.779 to deploy again, but there was a feeling of completion 2161 02:03:30.760 --> 02:03:33.680 there that had just never been there before. So when 2162 02:03:34.619 --> 02:03:40.510 it was all said and done, it wasn't the hardest transition. 2163 02:03:40.630 --> 02:03:43.609 It was at first, realizing it's time. But as we 2164 02:03:43.630 --> 02:03:47.090 started making steps towards that, I was kind of excited 2165 02:03:47.149 --> 02:03:49.930 about the next chapter in life. 2166 02:03:50.770 --> 02:03:53.029 That's awesome. Do we have questions for Brent? 2167 02:03:54.130 --> 02:04:00.710 We do. I just wanted to say also that air tags. 2168 02:04:01.050 --> 02:04:04.510 I put an air tag in my car. It works wonders. 2169 02:04:06.029 --> 02:04:06.890 Yeah. 2170 02:04:07.329 --> 02:04:07.590 Yeah. 2171 02:04:07.909 --> 02:04:10.470 Yeah. Yeah. 2172 02:04:11.890 --> 02:04:14.829 Let's see here. Jackson, thank you very much. Was attending 2173 02:04:14.850 --> 02:04:18.020 selection for the unit more challenging than coming from guard 2174 02:04:18.239 --> 02:04:22.100 SF is guard SF well represented in the, and also 2175 02:04:22.119 --> 02:04:25.260 how often do you see Marines airmen and sailors at 2176 02:04:25.300 --> 02:04:25.659 the unit? 2177 02:04:27.960 --> 02:04:32.359 That's a good question. Um, I, I was surprised at 2178 02:04:32.819 --> 02:04:35.850 how many other 20th group guys were there. Um, there, 2179 02:04:36.050 --> 02:04:39.409 there was a, there was a period of time where the, 2180 02:04:39.670 --> 02:04:43.779 the highest, uh, um, It was a short period of time, 2181 02:04:44.079 --> 02:04:49.149 but it fluctuates. That 20th group had the best success 2182 02:04:49.159 --> 02:04:55.930 rate at selection. So, yeah, there's definitely no shortage of, 2183 02:04:56.069 --> 02:04:58.390 or at least at that time, you know, of guard guys. 2184 02:04:59.369 --> 02:05:03.069 And there's, you know, there's an eclectic mix of guys 2185 02:05:03.090 --> 02:05:04.710 in the unit. At the end of the day, it'll 2186 02:05:04.750 --> 02:05:07.729 always be heavy with Green Berets and Rangers, but there 2187 02:05:07.810 --> 02:05:09.529 is someone from everyone there. 2188 02:05:09.550 --> 02:05:10.229 I'll just, you know. 2189 02:05:11.159 --> 02:05:12.859 Leave it at that. I won't necessarily talk about the 2190 02:05:12.899 --> 02:05:17.390 percentages of all of them, but they're all there. And 2191 02:05:17.409 --> 02:05:18.810 they definitely all show up to selection. 2192 02:05:21.649 --> 02:05:23.569 And Jackson, thank you very much. How different are the 2193 02:05:23.609 --> 02:05:25.090 cultures between the squadrons? 2194 02:05:27.710 --> 02:05:35.060 Oh, that's another good question, actually. When I first got there, 2195 02:05:39.100 --> 02:05:43.569 the cultures were... I wouldn't say drastically different because the, 2196 02:05:43.729 --> 02:05:45.670 the truth is if you went back a little bit 2197 02:05:45.750 --> 02:05:49.590 further when I was there, some people would say they 2198 02:05:49.630 --> 02:05:53.149 were drastically different. Uh, when, you know, uh, when I 2199 02:05:53.189 --> 02:05:57.479 got there, there was, there was still, um, very, very different. 2200 02:05:57.579 --> 02:06:02.159 They all had their, their, uh, their own personalities, uh, and, 2201 02:06:02.340 --> 02:06:05.789 and sometimes for better or worse. Um, and, uh, by the, 2202 02:06:05.840 --> 02:06:07.520 by the, really by the time of, uh, by the 2203 02:06:07.560 --> 02:06:08.819 time I got to the end of my career, a 2204 02:06:09.319 --> 02:06:12.460 lot of those, uh, I would probably say more on 2205 02:06:13.079 --> 02:06:19.119 those negative type cultures just had pretty much all but disappeared. 2206 02:06:19.779 --> 02:06:24.199 And even though there are still slight differences between the squadrons, 2207 02:06:25.539 --> 02:06:26.779 it wasn't as much as it used to be. 2208 02:06:28.539 --> 02:06:33.100 And then how did you feel about Dev Group and 2209 02:06:33.229 --> 02:06:34.289 HRT when you were in? 2210 02:06:36.970 --> 02:06:39.210 I didn't feel about them. 2211 02:06:41.489 --> 02:06:44.100 Uh, Joe, who are they? 2212 02:06:46.520 --> 02:06:48.279 I think I read a book about the second one. 2213 02:06:50.159 --> 02:06:53.279 Um, the, uh, we had, uh, we had a lot 2214 02:06:53.300 --> 02:06:56.699 of interaction with, uh, with the dev group guys. And, um, yeah, I've, 2215 02:06:56.899 --> 02:06:59.479 I've done, you know, I've done, you know, large scale 2216 02:06:59.539 --> 02:07:02.039 training exercises with them. They've, you know, they've come over 2217 02:07:02.079 --> 02:07:04.500 and had large trail, you know, you know, send onesie 2218 02:07:04.659 --> 02:07:07.279 onesie Tuesday guys or, or a team over to do 2219 02:07:07.319 --> 02:07:11.369 large scale training operations to get that, uh, that crossover. Um, 2220 02:07:12.829 --> 02:07:15.810 and we'll just say in various places around the world, I've, 2221 02:07:16.069 --> 02:07:18.199 I've had, uh, one or two of their guys, uh, 2222 02:07:18.289 --> 02:07:21.289 attached to us. Um, so they could get, you know, 2223 02:07:21.390 --> 02:07:24.930 experience of where we're at. Um, and they were always 2224 02:07:24.949 --> 02:07:32.220 good guys. They really were. They were always good guys. Um, HRT, no, no, never, 2225 02:07:32.260 --> 02:07:35.560 never saw them. They just, you know, completely different mission set. 2226 02:07:36.159 --> 02:07:41.180 They're generally speaking, they're CONUS, we're OCONUS. Um, There was 2227 02:07:41.239 --> 02:07:43.750 a time we had HRT guys kind of attached to us, 2228 02:07:43.760 --> 02:07:45.239 but when they were attached to us, they were just 2229 02:07:45.930 --> 02:07:51.090 evidence collectors. They weren't shooters by any stretch of the imagination. 2230 02:07:52.609 --> 02:07:54.810 And nor could they be. They haven't gone through our 2231 02:07:54.829 --> 02:07:55.369 level of training. 2232 02:07:57.159 --> 02:07:59.920 Uh joe's got you thank you very much uh did 2233 02:07:59.960 --> 02:08:02.640 you work a lot with 22 sas while deployed i 2234 02:08:02.979 --> 02:08:04.890 think we got that yeah i think we kind of 2235 02:08:04.909 --> 02:08:07.109 got that uh dog. 2236 02:08:06.909 --> 02:08:10.069 Point and there there's a there's another one and i'll 2237 02:08:10.090 --> 02:08:12.829 just tell you just a a quick story of how 2238 02:08:12.949 --> 02:08:16.819 much respect we have with, with, uh, with the SAS, 2239 02:08:16.840 --> 02:08:20.779 you know, obviously we were modeled after those guys. Um, they, 2240 02:08:20.960 --> 02:08:23.060 they helped us out a lot with our tactics in 2241 02:08:23.079 --> 02:08:25.710 the beginning. By the beginning, I mean, talking like 1977, 2242 02:08:25.699 --> 02:08:30.289 you know, Charlie Beck with, uh, founder days and that 2243 02:08:30.369 --> 02:08:34.529 type of, uh, relationship has, has maintained for, for 40 2244 02:08:34.529 --> 02:08:37.869 plus years. So, um, I mean, I'll make up this, 2245 02:08:38.010 --> 02:08:40.670 you know, this fictional scenario, but it's, but it's absolutely true. 2246 02:08:41.710 --> 02:08:44.529 if I was in Syria and some, you know, and 2247 02:08:44.609 --> 02:08:46.069 heck I'll make it close to him, a green beret, 2248 02:08:46.100 --> 02:08:48.560 a green beret comes and knocks on my door and like, Hey, 2249 02:08:49.619 --> 02:08:51.199 heard who you guys are. Just want to come over 2250 02:08:51.220 --> 02:08:54.060 and say hi. I'd be like, uh, go walk 40 2251 02:08:54.060 --> 02:08:56.560 miles and you can come back and say hi. You know, 2252 02:08:56.899 --> 02:08:59.930 you know, uh, I'd say it nicer, but yeah, but generally, 2253 02:08:59.970 --> 02:09:04.510 generally speaking, that's turn it around, bring a foreigner to 2254 02:09:04.529 --> 02:09:07.890 my door, a guy who's not even American, but make 2255 02:09:07.949 --> 02:09:10.430 it an SAS guy come and knock on my door 2256 02:09:10.449 --> 02:09:13.600 and say, Hey, Yeah. Hey mate. Yeah. I'm, I'm with 2257 02:09:13.979 --> 02:09:15.649 the two, two. I was told to come say hi. 2258 02:09:16.430 --> 02:09:18.510 I'd open that door as fast as I could and 2259 02:09:18.529 --> 02:09:19.270 bring them right on in. 2260 02:09:19.529 --> 02:09:23.770 Invite him for a spot of tea. That's right. 2261 02:09:23.829 --> 02:09:28.109 Yeah. The, the, the relationship that the two units have are, are, are, 2262 02:09:28.250 --> 02:09:30.470 are great. And I'll, I still talk to some of 2263 02:09:30.489 --> 02:09:32.229 those guys. Great, great guys. 2264 02:09:34.630 --> 02:09:37.430 Um, dog point. Thank you. Uh, what'd you like about 2265 02:09:37.510 --> 02:09:40.550 your squadron? What was the vibe? Like any funny stories? 2266 02:09:43.579 --> 02:09:48.859 Um, uh, there's, there's always, it doesn't matter what part 2267 02:09:48.899 --> 02:09:51.140 of this business you're in, you know, you work with 2268 02:09:51.180 --> 02:09:54.260 the funniest guys you've, you've ever been around, you know, 2269 02:09:54.279 --> 02:09:56.560 and I don't care if you're a seal green beret rage, 2270 02:09:56.619 --> 02:09:59.300 I care what you did. You're just hanging out with 2271 02:09:59.500 --> 02:10:03.560 the funniest guys you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll ever work with. Um, 2272 02:10:05.449 --> 02:10:08.750 The vibe in my squadron, I think, was a good 2273 02:10:08.869 --> 02:10:14.250 middle-of-the-road vibe. We were very professional when needed to be 2274 02:10:14.630 --> 02:10:19.350 and could kick back and relax when needed to be. 2275 02:10:19.369 --> 02:10:24.300 I think other squadrons at times were too professional and 2276 02:10:24.340 --> 02:10:26.899 weren't very fun to be around. Some of them were 2277 02:10:26.920 --> 02:10:32.329 a little bit more I don't want to say cowboyish, 2278 02:10:32.470 --> 02:10:35.770 but I don't mean to say that in a bad light. 2279 02:10:36.829 --> 02:10:39.350 But I think we had a good balance of both. 2280 02:10:39.430 --> 02:10:44.520 And so I really enjoyed the culture of the squadron 2281 02:10:44.539 --> 02:10:44.939 I was in. 2282 02:10:45.380 --> 02:10:48.180 So Goldilocks would find you guys just right. 2283 02:10:50.880 --> 02:10:52.880 Yeah. 2284 02:10:53.000 --> 02:10:55.640 Nick TCH. Well, this is actually for Jack. Will Mike 2285 02:10:55.680 --> 02:10:57.829 Perry ever return? Maybe. 2286 02:10:58.210 --> 02:11:01.369 If he wants to, sure. We'd love to have him back. 2287 02:11:01.430 --> 02:11:03.909 Mike Perry? Yeah. 2288 02:11:03.989 --> 02:11:05.010 First group, Mike Perry. 2289 02:11:06.229 --> 02:11:09.350 Oh, no. The bare knuckle fighter, Mike Perry. 2290 02:11:09.750 --> 02:11:10.789 Not that Mike Perry. 2291 02:11:11.449 --> 02:11:12.569 Okay. 2292 02:11:12.789 --> 02:11:14.390 Dan O'Naughton, Lions Den. 2293 02:11:14.649 --> 02:11:15.170 Thank you. 2294 02:11:15.810 --> 02:11:22.220 Delta Leaves the Way, Big PP, 82nd, Pugin Dragons. It 2295 02:11:22.229 --> 02:11:34.680 was just a comment. Yeah. Okay. And then, so Joe's 2296 02:11:34.720 --> 02:11:39.020 got you. Thank you very much. You can talk or 2297 02:11:39.100 --> 02:11:43.140 not talk about this, obviously. Was your squadron involved at 2298 02:11:43.319 --> 02:11:47.539 all with the battle of Kasham in 2018 against Wagner Group? 2299 02:11:50.260 --> 02:11:58.260 Yeah, I was in Dar Azhar. It was a good time. Uh, there's, 2300 02:11:58.300 --> 02:12:01.600 there's a news article about it. You can read it. 2301 02:12:01.619 --> 02:12:04.199 Uh, dog point. Uh, thank you very much. When you 2302 02:12:04.239 --> 02:12:06.659 went back to HVT rates at zero, was it business 2303 02:12:06.729 --> 02:12:08.750 as usual or did you have to change it up? 2304 02:12:12.609 --> 02:12:19.689 Ooh, um, more or less business as usual. Um, you know, the, 2305 02:12:19.699 --> 02:12:21.920 you know, all the IDs was definitely more of a 2306 02:12:21.939 --> 02:12:25.130 thing on, um, uh, you know, that type of, you know, 2307 02:12:25.189 --> 02:12:28.890 gaining ground, conventional forces, they're pulling back, you know, laying 2308 02:12:28.909 --> 02:12:31.909 them all in. They still kept, you know, the knowledge 2309 02:12:32.869 --> 02:12:39.890 of that and some of the TTPs. But generally speaking, 2310 02:12:39.930 --> 02:12:41.560 it was back to business as usual. 2311 02:12:43.489 --> 02:12:47.880 And I believe that is it. So tell us about 2312 02:12:48.079 --> 02:12:53.789 FRCC and some of the things that you're involved in now. Uh, yeah. 2313 02:12:54.210 --> 02:12:57.430 Um, when, when I got out of the, uh, the military, 2314 02:12:57.449 --> 02:12:58.869 I had to figure out what I want to do 2315 02:12:58.890 --> 02:13:03.130 when I grow up. Um, had no real, you know, 2316 02:13:03.210 --> 02:13:06.350 solid plans that, you know, I did a couple like, uh, 2317 02:13:06.350 --> 02:13:09.439 1099 gigs contracting, but all Kona stuff. I knew I 2318 02:13:09.449 --> 02:13:12.460 didn't want to go overseas and contract, um, nothing against 2319 02:13:12.579 --> 02:13:14.439 any of those guys who do, you know, I just, 2320 02:13:14.479 --> 02:13:16.479 you know, it's not something that I was looking to do. Um, 2321 02:13:18.710 --> 02:13:21.409 Had a couple of former unit guys start calling me 2322 02:13:21.430 --> 02:13:23.189 up and be like, hey, we're training a SWAT team here. 2323 02:13:23.250 --> 02:13:25.210 I need an extra instructor. You want to come out? 2324 02:13:25.229 --> 02:13:27.909 I was like, that sounds, yeah, I'd love to go 2325 02:13:27.930 --> 02:13:31.550 hang out with SWAT teams and try to transfer some 2326 02:13:31.569 --> 02:13:35.130 of this knowledge that's really kind of very uniquely to 2327 02:13:35.350 --> 02:13:42.510 us and kind of uniquely to SWAT teams because they 2328 02:13:42.529 --> 02:13:46.529 deal with barricaded shooters, active shooters, things like that that 2329 02:13:46.630 --> 02:13:51.369 would happen on our targets. And I really enjoyed sharing 2330 02:13:51.409 --> 02:13:53.829 information with those guys. Like I really did. Like I 2331 02:13:53.850 --> 02:13:56.850 got up, you know, I felt like I, you know, 2332 02:13:56.909 --> 02:13:59.270 every time I went and taught those guys that I, 2333 02:13:59.289 --> 02:14:06.750 I truly gave them the tools needed to be just 2334 02:14:06.810 --> 02:14:10.829 as effective, if not more effective and to do business 2335 02:14:11.029 --> 02:14:14.010 smarter to make sure that they can go home at night. 2336 02:14:14.930 --> 02:14:18.270 And I'll never teach someone tactics where we're, we're, we're, 2337 02:14:18.970 --> 02:14:26.020 safety is somehow in the lead of a reason for 2338 02:14:26.439 --> 02:14:30.500 teaching a tactic, never, never, never has safety ever played 2339 02:14:30.539 --> 02:14:34.420 a part on that's why we do this tactic. But 2340 02:14:35.500 --> 02:14:40.560 if the effectiveness can stay 100% the same and there 2341 02:14:40.600 --> 02:14:45.140 is the same end result that this guy dies, yet 2342 02:14:45.579 --> 02:14:47.140 I can increase your survivability. 2343 02:14:47.359 --> 02:14:47.520 Yeah. 2344 02:14:47.539 --> 02:14:50.979 We'll, we'll, we'll talk about that. Um, and so, uh, 2345 02:14:51.100 --> 02:14:54.189 you know, I got to, I got to basically show 2346 02:14:54.229 --> 02:14:56.630 those guys the lessons that we learned in blood. Like I, 2347 02:14:57.189 --> 02:15:00.010 I really wish I could say that we're so much 2348 02:15:00.069 --> 02:15:02.550 smarter at the unit than everyone else. And that's why 2349 02:15:02.609 --> 02:15:08.130 our tactics are so much better. Um, we're, we're kind 2350 02:15:08.170 --> 02:15:11.869 of smart. Um, but the unfortunate truth is we just 2351 02:15:11.909 --> 02:15:14.909 get to see a lot more targets and we had 2352 02:15:14.949 --> 02:15:16.729 to learn it the hard way, like everyone else does. 2353 02:15:16.770 --> 02:15:18.149 So we just got, we just get a lot more 2354 02:15:18.210 --> 02:15:21.869 exposure to mistakes and to, and to doing things wrong. 2355 02:15:22.449 --> 02:15:23.800 And some of those things, to be honest with you, 2356 02:15:23.810 --> 02:15:27.109 it took us way too long to, to, to change 2357 02:15:27.149 --> 02:15:30.909 the way we do, we do business. So I'm really 2358 02:15:30.949 --> 02:15:32.489 glad to be able to share that with those guys. 2359 02:15:34.029 --> 02:15:37.310 That's something that eventually turned into me and a SEAL 2360 02:15:37.329 --> 02:15:40.600 team six buddy and were going to start or did 2361 02:15:40.640 --> 02:15:44.890 start the beginning of a nonprofit to raise money for 2362 02:15:44.979 --> 02:15:51.329 police officer training. Budget is such a big deal to 2363 02:15:51.369 --> 02:15:54.970 those guys. They have no budget. They want to train, 2364 02:15:57.109 --> 02:15:59.970 and sometimes they can get equipment budgets, and sometimes they 2365 02:16:00.010 --> 02:16:02.560 have more equipment than you think that they would have 2366 02:16:02.600 --> 02:16:06.470 because of certain grants, but training doesn't come along with it. Um, 2367 02:16:06.609 --> 02:16:10.409 and some departments don't have the necessarily equipment either. Um, 2368 02:16:10.710 --> 02:16:14.869 so it's a, it's really a diverse, you know, um, 2369 02:16:15.010 --> 02:16:18.729 group of people you run into in SWAT teams. Um, 2370 02:16:18.850 --> 02:16:23.520 and I'm not talking about your, your wokeness term of, of, uh, 2371 02:16:24.000 --> 02:16:27.579 of diverse, you know, I'm talking about just the different, um, 2372 02:16:28.920 --> 02:16:32.639 the different experience levels, the different training, the different equipment it's, 2373 02:16:32.719 --> 02:16:35.250 it's all over the place. So we were going to 2374 02:16:35.270 --> 02:16:39.489 start a nonprofit. Come to find out, I don't like 2375 02:16:39.920 --> 02:16:43.360 asking people for money. And that is a integral part 2376 02:16:43.600 --> 02:16:48.739 of being a nonprofit. It's a key component. It's a 2377 02:16:48.760 --> 02:16:53.670 key component to a nonprofit. So I ended up starting, 2378 02:16:53.690 --> 02:16:57.149 you know, starting First Responders Coffee Company first. You know, 2379 02:16:57.750 --> 02:17:02.780 I'd much rather, you know, sell things, have an exchange for, 2380 02:17:02.799 --> 02:17:05.559 you know, uh, uh, you know, value for a product 2381 02:17:05.600 --> 02:17:07.540 and then, you know, take, take the money we raised 2382 02:17:07.579 --> 02:17:10.489 from that and, uh, and put it towards first responders. 2383 02:17:11.069 --> 02:17:13.350 So we started with the coffee company. We started November 2384 02:17:13.370 --> 02:17:18.350 of last year. We've, uh, we've donated back a little 2385 02:17:18.389 --> 02:17:23.030 over $ 20, 000, uh, in, in less than a year. Uh, and, 2386 02:17:23.879 --> 02:17:25.899 and the, and the truth is, uh, I love saying 2387 02:17:25.940 --> 02:17:27.399 that number because it kind of sounds like a big 2388 02:17:27.420 --> 02:17:31.420 number for a small business, but, uh, We get more 2389 02:17:31.469 --> 02:17:34.770 requests than I could ever fill right now. So we 2390 02:17:34.809 --> 02:17:38.569 won't be happy until we can stop telling departments that 2391 02:17:38.670 --> 02:17:41.370 here what we're doing and asking for help until we 2392 02:17:41.409 --> 02:17:45.870 can fulfill all those requests. We will never be satisfied. 2393 02:17:47.270 --> 02:17:50.969 And so that comes into the next part of the business. Um, 2394 02:17:50.989 --> 02:17:54.190 you know, we could add another coffee line, which would 2395 02:17:54.209 --> 02:17:56.190 take a lot of work and maybe add a little 2396 02:17:56.219 --> 02:18:01.020 bit of revenue. Um, but, uh, we, we decided on, Hey, 2397 02:18:01.139 --> 02:18:02.940 if we added a whole new product, we can get 2398 02:18:02.979 --> 02:18:05.530 into a whole new, um, you know, group of, uh, 2399 02:18:05.620 --> 02:18:09.879 of purchasers. And so, uh, we started first responder cigar company. 2400 02:18:10.579 --> 02:18:14.829 and hopes of, of, of garnering a wider audience. And 2401 02:18:14.870 --> 02:18:18.010 that's been great. That's been a, I'm a little bit 2402 02:18:18.030 --> 02:18:21.510 of a selfish pleasure because I smoke two to three 2403 02:18:21.530 --> 02:18:24.110 of my own stash every day. And so I needed 2404 02:18:24.170 --> 02:18:29.750 that at wholesale pricing. But, but besides that, you know, 2405 02:18:29.989 --> 02:18:32.049 if you think half, you know, half of the country 2406 02:18:32.729 --> 02:18:35.510 drinks coffee, but it, but it is a very, you know, 2407 02:18:36.569 --> 02:18:38.510 you know, kind of convoluted market. There's a lot of 2408 02:18:38.569 --> 02:18:40.079 people fighting in that space. 2409 02:18:40.469 --> 02:18:40.629 Right. 2410 02:18:40.690 --> 02:18:43.979 Even though I don't argue within first responders, there's a, 2411 02:18:44.350 --> 02:18:48.329 there's a, you know, a multi-million, you know, a person 2412 02:18:48.409 --> 02:18:51.920 audience that, you know, that, that doesn't have a, a product, 2413 02:18:51.979 --> 02:18:54.379 you know, kind of like ours catering to them. So, 2414 02:18:54.799 --> 02:18:56.579 you know, we do have a nice niche cut out 2415 02:18:56.639 --> 02:19:00.379 in that area, but a small percentage of people smoke cigars, 2416 02:19:01.379 --> 02:19:03.510 but we're the only cigar, you know, we're the only 2417 02:19:04.250 --> 02:19:08.309 one of the very, very few American disabled veteran own, 2418 02:19:08.430 --> 02:19:10.870 you know, cigar lines. And then, of course, the only 2419 02:19:10.969 --> 02:19:14.649 one doing anything for first responders. Our cigar sales will 2420 02:19:14.690 --> 02:19:17.610 probably take over our coffee sales in the next couple 2421 02:19:17.670 --> 02:19:18.309 of months. 2422 02:19:18.750 --> 02:19:21.120 I'll check you guys out, Brent, because we smoke cigars 2423 02:19:21.420 --> 02:19:24.620 on the show. We have our humidor here. So I'll 2424 02:19:24.860 --> 02:19:25.809 definitely check out. 2425 02:19:25.819 --> 02:19:26.950 You got a box coming at you. 2426 02:19:28.520 --> 02:19:30.670 Well, we're happy to support the cause. 2427 02:19:30.909 --> 02:19:33.790 And we encourage everybody else to support the cause, whether 2428 02:19:33.850 --> 02:19:38.409 it's for coffee or cigars, or I guess you said whiskey, 2429 02:19:38.450 --> 02:19:41.030 but I guess cognac would go better, right? First. 2430 02:19:41.409 --> 02:19:42.420 Oh, there you go. Yeah. 2431 02:19:43.110 --> 02:19:43.379 Yeah. 2432 02:19:43.430 --> 02:19:46.899 I kind of have this FRCC, you know, thing going. 2433 02:19:46.920 --> 02:19:48.739 Coffee, cognac, cigars, that works. 2434 02:19:48.799 --> 02:19:48.959 Yeah. 2435 02:19:49.809 --> 02:19:49.989 Yeah. 2436 02:19:50.129 --> 02:19:51.670 Company. We'll, we'll work with it. 2437 02:19:51.930 --> 02:19:52.709 We'll massage that. 2438 02:19:53.309 --> 02:19:57.350 Um, but you guys can, can find them at F 2439 02:19:57.870 --> 02:20:08.639 R C, uh, coffee.com. That's Foxtrot, Romeo, Charlie, coffee.com. Check 2440 02:20:08.680 --> 02:20:10.840 them out. And it's going to be in the link. Uh, 2441 02:20:10.899 --> 02:20:13.520 it's going to be in the show description also, um, 2442 02:20:13.600 --> 02:20:18.709 down below. Um, and then also, uh, you started out 2443 02:20:18.930 --> 02:20:23.670 as a guest on the anti-hero podcast, right. And then 2444 02:20:24.510 --> 02:20:27.590 kind of work your way up just through sheer talent 2445 02:20:28.270 --> 02:20:29.469 and charisma. 2446 02:20:29.989 --> 02:20:34.309 Um, he needed a coach with a small vocabulary and 2447 02:20:34.389 --> 02:20:35.370 I was the clear choice. 2448 02:20:36.250 --> 02:20:38.469 Uh, and you guys, yeah, uh, you can find the 2449 02:20:38.510 --> 02:20:43.799 anti-hero podcast on YouTube and also, um, on podcast platforms, right. Your, 2450 02:20:43.950 --> 02:20:46.299 your favorite podcast. So tell us about that. 2451 02:20:48.840 --> 02:20:55.219 Yeah, it really coincides with the first responder coffee company story. 2452 02:20:55.239 --> 02:20:59.579 I think if I remember right, a local news channel 2453 02:20:59.600 --> 02:21:01.250 picked up a story about us, and I just got 2454 02:21:01.290 --> 02:21:06.430 a random email from a small podcast saying, hey, I'd 2455 02:21:06.469 --> 02:21:08.309 love to have you on the show. I'm an Orange 2456 02:21:08.350 --> 02:21:10.809 County deputy, which is the county I live in. So 2457 02:21:11.690 --> 02:21:13.629 I was like, well, absolutely, I'll do a podcast with you. 2458 02:21:13.649 --> 02:21:16.120 I mean, you're in my own backyard. Went over there, 2459 02:21:16.139 --> 02:21:19.000 did a podcast with him. Really enjoyed it. It was 2460 02:21:19.020 --> 02:21:21.200 a good time. He's a really good dude and a 2461 02:21:21.260 --> 02:21:24.629 first responder. It was an easy conversation to have with him. 2462 02:21:25.670 --> 02:21:29.520 He had me back on, you know, a couple more times. And, 2463 02:21:29.530 --> 02:21:31.290 you know, the times I was on was always the, 2464 02:21:31.870 --> 02:21:37.459 you know, his bigger shows. And, you know, not to 2465 02:21:37.500 --> 02:21:40.399 be edgy, but it's just true. And it happened. You know, 2466 02:21:41.459 --> 02:21:47.180 I ended up. I ended up saying something on a 2467 02:21:47.200 --> 02:21:50.579 30-second snippet on a podcast. Ended up into a much 2468 02:21:50.639 --> 02:21:57.469 bigger ordeal. I'll try to make it real quick. He 2469 02:21:57.549 --> 02:22:01.530 asked me some off-the-wall question on a first responder topic interview. 2470 02:22:01.690 --> 02:22:05.879 And he goes, hey, are there any secrets you want 2471 02:22:05.899 --> 02:22:09.979 to tell me about Black Ops? I was like, no, 2472 02:22:10.000 --> 02:22:11.979 I don't really have any. Because to be honest with you, 2473 02:22:12.340 --> 02:22:15.260 most things get leaked. So you probably know them all anyway. 2474 02:22:15.840 --> 02:22:19.530 And then he randomly goes, did Rob O'Neill kill Osama 2475 02:22:19.549 --> 02:22:22.629 bin Laden? And I just, I answered the way I 2476 02:22:22.670 --> 02:22:24.389 kind of do in a team room. And I go, 2477 02:22:25.670 --> 02:22:28.360 Rob O'Neill didn't kill bin Laden. It's the worst kept 2478 02:22:28.600 --> 02:22:32.540 secret in all special operations. and he cut that as 2479 02:22:32.620 --> 02:22:35.899 a snippet and posted it as the promo, although it 2480 02:22:35.940 --> 02:22:38.799 had nothing to do with the, uh, with the, with 2481 02:22:38.840 --> 02:22:41.840 the episode and it, and it goes viral. 2482 02:22:42.200 --> 02:22:46.559 Brent, you rabble rouser. 2483 02:22:46.760 --> 02:22:50.479 Did he actually respond to that? Or, uh, so for 2484 02:22:50.639 --> 02:22:53.600 anybody who's curious, you do have to check out like 2485 02:22:53.620 --> 02:22:56.540 the full episode where you go into the weeds with it, 2486 02:22:56.579 --> 02:22:57.510 which was episode 37, 37. 2487 02:22:57.489 --> 02:23:03.360 So the, The problem with that was it was cut 2488 02:23:03.399 --> 02:23:07.520 as a teaser, an unintentional teaser. It wasn't a teaser 2489 02:23:07.540 --> 02:23:11.319 that was going to go into something more. That was it. 2490 02:23:11.360 --> 02:23:14.239 That was just my comment about it. It goes viral 2491 02:23:14.260 --> 02:23:16.340 and has, I don't know, between all of them, a 2492 02:23:16.379 --> 02:23:19.440 million views. A lot of people were upset. They're like, 2493 02:23:19.489 --> 02:23:22.290 you can't just say something like that and not back 2494 02:23:22.329 --> 02:23:24.850 it up. There was a lot of that. A lot 2495 02:23:24.870 --> 02:23:27.530 of people were just upset that I would make such 2496 02:23:27.569 --> 02:23:30.750 a claim without any you can't call someone a liar 2497 02:23:30.969 --> 02:23:35.350 and have no, you know, um, you know, evidence to it. Um, 2498 02:23:36.030 --> 02:23:38.600 so it took me a little bit. I was like, 2499 02:23:38.620 --> 02:23:40.520 you know what? They're right. So I came back out 2500 02:23:40.540 --> 02:23:43.360 with a two and a half hour podcast talking about 2501 02:23:43.399 --> 02:23:47.680 this exact subject, taking open source information from, from Matt 2502 02:23:47.719 --> 02:23:54.670 Bissonette to, uh, to your guys's podcast, uh, to, you know, to, um, not, 2503 02:23:54.870 --> 02:24:00.870 not my normal star witness, but, uh, um, Osama bin 2504 02:24:00.889 --> 02:24:03.819 Laden's wife who was also in the room actually makes 2505 02:24:03.879 --> 02:24:08.239 a statement about what happened that night hate to hate 2506 02:24:08.260 --> 02:24:12.780 to ruin a surprise ending but everyone's story are all 2507 02:24:12.819 --> 02:24:14.319 the same except for one. 2508 02:24:15.940 --> 02:24:17.569 So everybody's lying but Rob. 2509 02:24:20.770 --> 02:24:23.930 Everyone's no Rob is the only outlier in here everyone 2510 02:24:23.969 --> 02:24:26.549 else has the same exact story about what happened that 2511 02:24:26.610 --> 02:24:29.879 night Uh, except, except for the guy making millions off 2512 02:24:29.899 --> 02:24:35.500 of it. I mean, words like stolen valor being thrown around, 2513 02:24:35.520 --> 02:24:37.479 but I don't know. You can use your own words. 2514 02:24:38.100 --> 02:24:40.819 So yeah. And I, people should go check out that, 2515 02:24:40.899 --> 02:24:43.219 that podcast, the deep dive that you guys did. 2516 02:24:43.540 --> 02:24:45.739 Well, in the podcast in general, because you guys cover 2517 02:24:45.760 --> 02:24:47.979 a lot of really cool topics because you talk about, 2518 02:24:48.000 --> 02:24:52.040 I mean, a lot of, uh, first responder stuff. I mean, 2519 02:24:53.180 --> 02:24:56.229 and you guys, you guys call out bullshit where you 2520 02:24:56.260 --> 02:24:57.000 see bullshit too. 2521 02:24:58.510 --> 02:24:58.909 We do. 2522 02:24:59.229 --> 02:25:03.760 But I told him, although my co-host Tyler really he has, 2523 02:25:03.899 --> 02:25:06.219 you know, very like of, you know, he loves punk 2524 02:25:06.239 --> 02:25:08.280 rock and he has that. He likes that culture and 2525 02:25:08.319 --> 02:25:11.260 he doesn't he doesn't mind mixing it up a little bit. Although, 2526 02:25:11.340 --> 02:25:14.590 ironically enough, you know, that that comment makes it looks 2527 02:25:14.649 --> 02:25:17.829 like I'm more than happy to stir things up. But 2528 02:25:18.649 --> 02:25:20.809 the truth is, you know, I stepped in it and 2529 02:25:20.829 --> 02:25:24.030 then I had to own it. And I told, you know, 2530 02:25:24.110 --> 02:25:26.540 the anti-hero podcast when I came on at the end 2531 02:25:26.559 --> 02:25:28.319 of the day. I really want this to be a 2532 02:25:28.340 --> 02:25:33.159 platform where we can tell the stories of first responders 2533 02:25:33.180 --> 02:25:36.379 that I just don't think get told. And, and, and, 2534 02:25:36.799 --> 02:25:38.250 and there's always going to be the, and we'll have 2535 02:25:38.280 --> 02:25:40.770 those stories on. In fact, we have one coming tomorrow 2536 02:25:40.790 --> 02:25:43.579 with a cop that got that, that took around and, 2537 02:25:43.610 --> 02:25:44.930 you know, got shot in the line of duty. Um, 2538 02:25:45.549 --> 02:25:48.610 you know, that's very, you know, very unique to any profession. 2539 02:25:48.629 --> 02:25:50.909 You know, there's cops getting shot all over this country 2540 02:25:50.989 --> 02:25:55.059 and it's a, it's an epidemic and it's, it's, it's horrible. Um, 2541 02:25:55.590 --> 02:25:59.110 But those stories are out there. There are stories out 2542 02:25:59.129 --> 02:26:05.100 there that paramedics and ambulance riders can tell you that 2543 02:26:05.260 --> 02:26:08.120 never get a voice, never get to tell their side 2544 02:26:08.229 --> 02:26:10.850 of the story. They say some of the worst stuff 2545 02:26:11.370 --> 02:26:15.510 day in and day out. Kids and moms getting mangled 2546 02:26:15.549 --> 02:26:17.670 in a car wreck, you know, on the way to, 2547 02:26:17.809 --> 02:26:20.370 you know, on the way to school, just things that are, 2548 02:26:20.469 --> 02:26:22.920 that are horrible. But, you know, they, you know, I, 2549 02:26:23.149 --> 02:26:24.389 I just want to make, I want to get a, 2550 02:26:25.030 --> 02:26:27.430 a platform out there to where all first responders. 2551 02:26:27.610 --> 02:26:28.030 That's great. 2552 02:26:28.059 --> 02:26:31.940 You know, can tell their stories. Yeah, that's fantastic. 2553 02:26:32.860 --> 02:26:36.340 And yeah, I mean, like it's weird that the reporting 2554 02:26:36.440 --> 02:26:40.959 on police shootings, police being shot, like it's gone way down, 2555 02:26:40.979 --> 02:26:43.719 but police are like getting shot. a lot out there 2556 02:26:43.739 --> 02:26:44.100 right now. 2557 02:26:45.200 --> 02:26:50.569 Two police officers in Orlando just got shot a couple 2558 02:26:50.600 --> 02:26:56.629 weeks ago. And here's what's a really cool story. Usually 2559 02:26:56.649 --> 02:27:02.920 when that happens, however it's how it seems, is uh, 2560 02:27:03.079 --> 02:27:06.790 you know, the suspect flees into a, a County or, 2561 02:27:06.969 --> 02:27:10.649 you know, or an area outside the SWAT team's jurisdiction. 2562 02:27:11.209 --> 02:27:14.350 So it just, just, just the way it happens. Not, not, not, not, 2563 02:27:15.209 --> 02:27:18.709 not often enough does the local SWAT team whose brother 2564 02:27:18.750 --> 02:27:21.209 and sister you just shot get to go take care 2565 02:27:21.250 --> 02:27:23.950 of it. But that's exactly what happened in Orlando. This 2566 02:27:23.989 --> 02:27:26.729 guy holds up in a, in a hotel still within 2567 02:27:26.750 --> 02:27:31.639 the Orlando city limits and the SWAT guys go to work. And, uh, 2568 02:27:32.709 --> 02:27:37.280 That guy got the good news that night. I guess 2569 02:27:37.600 --> 02:27:40.750 I'm assuming he resisted arrest or had a. had a, 2570 02:27:41.229 --> 02:27:43.399 had a gun he shouldn't have. And, um, you know, 2571 02:27:43.659 --> 02:27:44.950 and the good news is he doesn't have to go 2572 02:27:45.000 --> 02:27:48.479 through the court system. Um, he's already, he's already, uh, 2573 02:27:49.159 --> 02:27:52.319 he's already got a sentence. And, uh, I got to 2574 02:27:52.360 --> 02:27:54.340 send those guys a whole box of cigars with a 2575 02:27:54.360 --> 02:27:57.799 handwritten letter. And I said, Hey, you know, uh, you know, 2576 02:27:58.000 --> 02:28:01.030 enjoy this, you know, not, Taking human life is obviously 2577 02:28:01.069 --> 02:28:06.899 something you should never be taken lightly. But that being said, 2578 02:28:07.620 --> 02:28:10.879 not everyone here deserves this life. And I gave him 2579 02:28:10.899 --> 02:28:17.219 just a long, heartfelt letter that said, I've gone through doors. 2580 02:28:17.559 --> 02:28:20.620 It worked out well tonight, but I know what it 2581 02:28:20.670 --> 02:28:23.030 feels like to not know how tonight's going to work 2582 02:28:23.129 --> 02:28:27.069 out right before that door opens. Some real kind of 2583 02:28:27.149 --> 02:28:31.389 intimate stuff about it. And they loved it. They framed it. 2584 02:28:32.000 --> 02:28:37.159 They smoked my cigars. And they're back at it, removing 2585 02:28:37.180 --> 02:28:39.760 bad guys from the streets every other night. And I 2586 02:28:39.840 --> 02:28:40.979 love that about SWAT teams. 2587 02:28:41.639 --> 02:28:44.920 Brent, again, man, thank you for doing this tonight. And 2588 02:28:44.940 --> 02:28:46.739 I just want to let people know we'll be back 2589 02:28:46.879 --> 02:28:51.000 Monday with William Osgood, who's Special Forces in Vietnam. And 2590 02:28:51.020 --> 02:28:53.290 then next Friday, we're going to have Robin Horsfall on 2591 02:28:53.329 --> 02:28:56.569 the show, who was in SAS. Um, so we're really 2592 02:28:56.610 --> 02:29:00.409 looking forward to talking to those two guys this upcoming week. Uh, Brent, 2593 02:29:00.450 --> 02:29:02.469 any final thoughts before we wrap up tonight? 2594 02:29:04.010 --> 02:29:06.790 No, I just, uh, again, I, I couldn't be any 2595 02:29:06.809 --> 02:29:09.049 more humbled. You guys have me on here and, and, 2596 02:29:09.270 --> 02:29:11.870 and thinking that, uh, my story is interesting enough to, 2597 02:29:11.930 --> 02:29:14.000 to listen to me run my rap, my, my run 2598 02:29:14.030 --> 02:29:15.299 my trap for a couple of hours. 2599 02:29:15.319 --> 02:29:17.780 You were great, man. It was really fascinating. Uh, and 2600 02:29:17.799 --> 02:29:19.120 I really appreciate you doing this. 2601 02:29:19.159 --> 02:29:23.329 Yeah, we deeply appreciate your time. Are you on social 2602 02:29:23.350 --> 02:29:25.489 media much? Can people follow you if they're interested? 2603 02:29:28.190 --> 02:29:31.450 Some habits I didn't want to break. The only social 2604 02:29:31.469 --> 02:29:35.110 media I have is the business, and I keep it there. 2605 02:29:35.489 --> 02:29:37.590 I didn't even want to learn that part of social media, 2606 02:29:37.629 --> 02:29:38.190 but I had to. 2607 02:29:38.790 --> 02:29:39.309 There you go. 2608 02:29:39.469 --> 02:29:41.079 That's cool. People can go check that out. 2609 02:29:41.379 --> 02:29:48.459 So definitely check out FRCC, First Responder Coffee Company, Cigar Company, 2610 02:29:48.780 --> 02:29:53.540 and soon to be Cognac Company. Or Cerveza Company. You'll 2611 02:29:53.559 --> 02:29:54.420 figure something out. 2612 02:29:54.520 --> 02:29:58.309 Yeah, we'll figure something out. 2613 02:29:58.959 --> 02:30:00.979 And check Brent out on the Antihero podcast. 2614 02:30:02.360 --> 02:30:05.409 Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, like I said, hit us up 2615 02:30:05.469 --> 02:30:07.350 when you're coming through New York sometime. You want to 2616 02:30:07.370 --> 02:30:11.209 light up some stogies, we'll be around. And everyone else 2617 02:30:11.309 --> 02:30:13.649 out there, have a nice weekend and we will see 2618 02:30:13.709 --> 02:30:14.530 you on Monday. 2619 02:30:14.829 --> 02:30:18.290 Yep. And RS, thank you. Thank you. Just saw your donation. 2620 02:30:18.329 --> 02:30:18.569 Thank you.