WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:09.880 Hello, and welcome to today's episode of alex Er. Miss. 2 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.359 I am joined as always by our wonderful panel of hosts, 3 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:15.439 including Bruce Kate. 4 00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:17.039 Hi everybody, Hey Bruce. 5 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:23.399 We've got Josh Adams, Hello, Hi, Josh, Lars Vikmann what. 6 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:24.839 Was that colloquial Swedish? 7 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:25.399 Very nice? 8 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:25.640 Hello? 9 00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:25.920 Hello? 10 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:26.760 Hello? 11 00:00:26.839 --> 00:00:27.079 Hello? 12 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:33.439 Very cool? And Steven Nias helloes all our something Yeah, 13 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:37.000 I think you do have to he out there perfect 14 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:39.960 and joining us as a guest. We are very lucky 15 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:43.240 to have an also netto who is a professor of 16 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:46.280 computer science and he's also very active in the Elixir community, 17 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:50.000 especially with regards to Elixir education. I am super happy 18 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:51.679 that you could join us today because these are really 19 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:54.799 some of my favorite topics, education and Elixer. You wouldn't 20 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:56.399 mind go ahead and introduce yourself. 21 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:59.240 Thank you very much. My name is Ago From, a 22 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:02.960 professor or at the Federal University of Technology. But now 23 00:01:03.399 --> 00:01:07.319 which is it's here in Critiba, Brazil, and I teach 24 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:12.200 lodge for computer science and also an introduction to Functional 25 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:16.400 Programming course. And I got interested in Elixir because it 26 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:18.719 was created by a Brazilian. I have to say that 27 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:22.560 because that's what's attracted me to the language at first, 28 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:26.879 but now I admire the language and also it's community. 29 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.680 So do you actually get to teach a luxure at 30 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:31.560 your university. 31 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:37.599 Yes, I don't have many students, less offering I had 32 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:41.879 for students only because it's an optional course. It's you 33 00:01:41.959 --> 00:01:46.480 don't have to take this course to graduate in computer science. 34 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:49.519 So actually we don't have computer science here. It's computer 35 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:54.359 engineering and information systems, but it's it's an optional. For instance, 36 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:58.799 I have an agual methods classes to class to and 37 00:01:58.879 --> 00:02:03.120 it's it has much more students because it's it attracts 38 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:07.239 more interest for it. It's more interesting for the students 39 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:11.400 to learn what's scrounged than elixir. But I hope that 40 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:14.560 as the time passes, more of the students are going 41 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:17.319 to get interested in this class. 42 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:19.479 It's interesting. We've gotten to spend a little bit of 43 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.360 time together. For those who don't know, I have a 44 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:25.960 metroing group and Adolfo shows up as I don't know 45 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:28.520 something between a metro and amity, which is kind of 46 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:30.960 great for my students. But I have some questions. Do 47 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:34.159 you have any techniques that you can throw my way 48 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:36.199 or are there anythings that we do that you're going 49 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:38.080 to take with you and your teaching approaches. 50 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.560 Actually, I think I'm learning more with you than the 51 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:47.879 opposite because be for this introduction to functional Programming course, 52 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:52.719 I only taught and laudnge for computer science, so it 53 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:56.879 was not an introduction to programming. I'm still trying to 54 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.759 learn which is the best approach to teach program And 55 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:05.120 what I try to do is teach them how to 56 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:09.599 write a program in Elixir, but also the fundamentals and 57 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:14.599 papers about the actor model, and so it's kind of 58 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:18.840 makes There is also this academic approach that I think 59 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:22.479 that's what's different from your approach with your main keys. 60 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.159 Yeah, it's been fun to actually have smaller classes where 61 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:27.960 we can flip the keyboard, and I think that that 62 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:30.919 has been an eye opener for me. Do you get 63 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:35.159 a chance to actually invite the keys to get up 64 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:38.520 in code ever? I know I never had that my person. 65 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:42.560 Yes, yes, because I'm also a big fan of the 66 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:47.000 coding those who technique. I have written some papers about it, 67 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:51.080 and whenever I can, I invite my students to do 68 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.759 a coding those with the whole class, and every five 69 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.360 to seven minutes they first y they do programming so 70 00:03:58.599 --> 00:04:03.439 there's two persons using the computer, and one of them 71 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:07.120 is the driver and the other is the audiency. I 72 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:12.400 don't remember the name, but the one that's observing and navigator, yes, navgator. 73 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:16.879 And after some time the navigators becomes a driver. The 74 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:20.279 drives go back to the to his seat, and another 75 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:23.240 students takes the place of the navigator. You have to 76 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:27.560 be always paying attention to what's happening to be able 77 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.439 to write some code in front of the class. That's 78 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:34.079 something that I really like. I had a master's student 79 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:38.120 who wrote actually the two masters students, they wrote their 80 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:41.800 thesis on coding those who so I tried to practice 81 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:43.120 these with my students. 82 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:46.279 It's interesting that you mentioned giving your students I think 83 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:48.800 you mentioned some papers on like the actor model to 84 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:53.040 read and that made me realize that when I was 85 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:57.120 learning a lexur, I didn't really know what that was 86 00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:59.639 or even have an opportunity to think too much about 87 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:04.040 it until maybe almost like a year into you know, 88 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:06.839 writing a lecture professionally. And I have an oh oh background, 89 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:09.079 Like I learned Ruby first. I was a real developer, 90 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:11.439 and so a lot of my journey into a elixir 91 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.560 away was characterized by like writing a lot of really messy, 92 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:18.279 sort of oh oh inflected Elixer code. And so one 93 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:20.240 of the things I'm always curious about is, you know, 94 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:23.920 what is it like to teach and learn something functional first, 95 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:26.519 as opposed to learning oh and then like trying to 96 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.439 sort of fight your way into a functional way of thinking. 97 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:31.600 I don't know if you've taught oh oh as well 98 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:33.879 as functional or you know how you think about these 99 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.800 different totally different frameworks and mental models. 100 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:40.920 Yes, the problem is that my students, when they come 101 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:45.040 to this optional course, they already know how to problem. 102 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.399 So I don't know how it is to teach functional 103 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:52.480 programming first because they already know. The problem that they 104 00:05:52.519 --> 00:05:56.040 have is in that I tweeted a few days ago, 105 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:00.360 was that they do what you said, They know how 106 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.480 to do objective ranged program and they try to do 107 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:07.079 something like that with Elixir and they have it's really 108 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.639 difficult for them. For the few students that I had, 109 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.439 tried to write some more ideomatic codes, some code that 110 00:06:14.560 --> 00:06:18.319 looks like elixure that makes use of pattern matching and 111 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:22.639 small functions and lots of things that you can do 112 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:26.279 in elixuir you can do in functional programming languages and 113 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:30.279 it makes the code more readable, but you can't do it. Know. Also, 114 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:33.879 at first, I'm not a professional programmer, so I program 115 00:06:33.879 --> 00:06:37.480 whenever I can. But I did my phddas is used 116 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.199 in Java, so I can say that I could write 117 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:45.160 some reasonably good Java codes. And when I started Elixir 118 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:48.959 now and before Alix, I started closure, and it was 119 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:51.319 difficult to say, now, how do I do that? How 120 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:55.120 do I do a for loop? Here? There's no for loops, 121 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.800 so I had to try to do things differently. So 122 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:02.639 it's a problem that I still don't have. But I 123 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:06.600 want to have one of my projects. I have many projects, 124 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:10.360 not all of them I put them in practice, but 125 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.360 one of them was to create a programming chorse or 126 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:18.040 even write a book for complete beginners, people that can't 127 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:21.360 program in any language and say, oh, now, let's learn 128 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:26.120 Elixir without the telling them that it's Elixir. Let's because 129 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:31.120 there are many productory books about Elixir that for for example, 130 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:33.279 my friends police is all made that he wrote a 131 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:37.720 great book about learning functional programming and with Elixer, but 132 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:41.480 he kind of expects that people already know how to 133 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.800 program with some other language. I believe Dave Thomas's book 134 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:50.600 also expects and even more such a uric book. So 135 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:55.160 there's no program no programming book or that teaches functional 136 00:07:55.160 --> 00:08:00.120 programming with Elixir for complete beginners. As far as yes, such. 137 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:03.839 Such books do exist for the Haskell language, which is 138 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:07.079 kind of a big step, right because you're you're not 139 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:11.000 just grappling with the paradigm of you know, with an 140 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:14.959 object and things, but you're also working into a completely 141 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:20.000 different kind of type theory. And these these concepts are 142 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:23.279 just pretty stunning to me. So another professor that that 143 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:25.480 I really like is a man named John Hughes, one 144 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:29.759 of the creators of Pascal, and he came to Chattanooga 145 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:33.320 to attend our conference and I was fortunate to spend 146 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.320 another couple of days with them. But he regularly taught 147 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:42.120 students without any kind of mental corruption, right, and these 148 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:46.120 are computer science students. So what's interesting to me is 149 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:48.639 the students that I get that that are starting from 150 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:52.919 scratch are normally professionals that have tried to make a 151 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.399 go in something else, right, So they they have the 152 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:59.679 benefit of not having some of the baggage of a 153 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:03.320 different programming paradigm that we have to deconstruct, but they 154 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.399 also don't have the experience with the tools that they 155 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.480 need for basic fluency, how to navigate the command line, 156 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:13.960 how to use source control, how to do things like that, 157 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:17.919 and and that's that is a tremendous obstacle. So you 158 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.320 find the same thing teaching at university. 159 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:21.039 You mean. 160 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:26.840 Basically a fluency with with the basic tools, you know, 161 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:31.120 source control, editors, navigation of the command line. 162 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.120 Things like that. Yes, the first year students here at 163 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.080 the Universe, some of them don't have any fluence, so 164 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:41.799 they learn. See the teachers that teach them in the 165 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:45.559 first semester they teach them. See, so they learned their 166 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.360 basically in the first semesters. When they arrive in my class, 167 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:51.200 they or I don't know how to do that, but 168 00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:54.639 I see what I mean. In there there are some 169 00:09:54.919 --> 00:10:00.559 online ideas like I don't know rip tho dot it 170 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:03.840 and also win the box where you don't have to 171 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:08.399 learn everything that create a file and all those things 172 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:12.080 to be able to write some basic programs in ELIKSU. 173 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:16.919 Yeah, on the subject of just teaching absolute beginners, one 174 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:19.120 of the best books I ever found for this was 175 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:23.440 Chris Pines Learned a Program which is in Ruby. I 176 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:27.720 have a friend who was sort of modely technically competent. 177 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:30.080 He learned to program Ruby using that book. He's the 178 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:32.399 CTO now have a startup. Really fun to watch that 179 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:33.320 that actually can work. 180 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:36.600 That's not a testimonial for chris Pine's book. I really 181 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:38.679 don't know what it is. Yeah, it's really interesting to 182 00:10:38.679 --> 00:10:41.759 think about how to teach absolute beginners. And that's something 183 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:44.080 that when Steven and I were teaching together at the 184 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:46.600 Flanner School, that's exactly what we did and what we 185 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:48.720 were teaching was Ruby. And I think, at least at 186 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:50.639 the time when I was a student there, which I 187 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.440 was for being a teacher there, Chris Pine's book was 188 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:55.000 I don't know if it was required, but it was 189 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:57.879 sort of recommended pre reading of starting the course. And 190 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.440 I think one of the things that I love about 191 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.200 teaching Ruby to absolute beginners, and one of the reasons 192 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.399 why the school kind of touted it at such a 193 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:08.720 great language for beginners, is because it's easy to see 194 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:11.879 how it models the real world. Right. There's an early assignment, 195 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:14.159 I think, where we have students build out like a 196 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:16.320 pet store or something, right, and you have a dog 197 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:18.480 and the characteristics of a dog, and then you Hadstanty 198 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:20.759 a dog objects and you know, take them to the 199 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:23.200 vet or something like that. And for a while I 200 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:26.519 was really just totally sold on oh oh models the 201 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.879 real world, like that is the mental model for writing 202 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:32.840 code that models the world. But now that I'm working 203 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.879 with Elixir and thinking about things more functionally, I'm kind 204 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:39.000 of thinking like, does it isn't it that message passing 205 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:41.840 models the world? And that's certainly what Joe Armstrong, you know, 206 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:44.320 would argue, And isn't it that the actor model really 207 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.320 models the world? So it still feels like these things 208 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:50.519 are at odds, like can they both be accurate representations 209 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:53.039 of the way that you know, people and objects move 210 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:53.679 through the world. 211 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:57.440 Well, I think that, As I said, I came from 212 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:01.960 a large in computer science background, and there is one 213 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:06.600 thing that's it's real in large given before in program 214 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:10.200 is that there are many many models of the world. 215 00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:14.679 There is, for instance, loge. There is a classical propositional 216 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:19.440 loge that we use mostly on programming is only one loge. 217 00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:24.320 There is multi valued loge. There is relevant loge into 218 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:28.000 an is ki loge, there's miny lodge. I believe that 219 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.639 depending on the problem, one model is going to be 220 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:35.639 the best for other problems. There are two possible models 221 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:39.200 and you can choose, So I don't think that's the problem. 222 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:43.679 Maybe this book that teaches an absolute beginner how to 223 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:47.279 program in Ruby is good for a person, and this 224 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:51.000 other book that teaches how to program in Haskell is 225 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:55.720 good for a mathematically inclined person, And so there there. 226 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.240 I think that the great thing about all these programming 227 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:02.759 languages that there are many options. So I know people 228 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:06.840 love closure. I know people hate closure because there is 229 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:11.840 so many a parentheses, and closure is even has less 230 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:17.639 apparences than LESP. There's everything. It's made with perencies. So 231 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:20.519 I don't think it's a problem. But I think here 232 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:24.600 is that we have to provide options, and the students, 233 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:29.080 the users, the persons, the people that want to learn programming, 234 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.159 they choose what's best for them. 235 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:34.919 I think that we're kind of entering a golden age 236 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.279 of programming in some ways, because we've come out of 237 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:41.399 a place when there was one true way right, there 238 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:45.960 was the javaway and then the darkness find them right. 239 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.480 So we were starting to get to the point where 240 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:54.639 it's not just useful, but almost expected to have more 241 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.960 than one tool in your tool back. And so for 242 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:02.039 that reason. I think that probably the most important thing 243 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:05.440 that we can learn is the skill of learning right. 244 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.519 And so that's that's something that I've always really respected 245 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:12.720 about you in your work, and especially this dojo approach 246 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:15.399 where where you teach people to roll out their slaves 247 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.840 and get their hands dirty first, really early in the process. 248 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.440 Yes, and what's great about coding dozho it was created 249 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:25.919 by two French guys. I believe that it was created 250 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:31.360 in France. I can't remember the names of loh Bosavi 251 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.679 and I don't remember the name of the other guy. 252 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:39.840 But one of the goals when I learned the coding 253 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:42.639 dojo from one of my students, it is one of 254 00:14:42.679 --> 00:14:47.360 the goals I know you you do during one two 255 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.919 three hours, you solve a problem a code kata. And 256 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:54.320 this concept of code kata was created by the great 257 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:59.000 Dave Thomas, which you know well, and his idea was 258 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:01.480 it was a small per all them that you'd solve 259 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:06.879 several times with different techniques in different languages, and the 260 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:10.080 s in there. It's it's the de seed for this 261 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.679 idea that you for you to be a good programmer, 262 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.399 you can't be just don't know. I'm going to become 263 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.320 perfect with Java and forget all about the other language. No, 264 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:23.879 you can learn product, you can learn list, you can 265 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:28.320 learn of course, you have to decide. That's something that 266 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:33.360 was happening at the Elixir World telegram group today is 267 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:36.759 that sometimes you have to choose you cannot. I'm going 268 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:38.919 to learn a bit of ELM, a bit of Elixir, 269 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:41.639 a bit of Irland, a bit of Java, and and 270 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:44.960 that being competent, nothing you have to choose. I'm going 271 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.519 to be good in Elixir. I'm going to study other 272 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.840 language so that I will be a better Elixir developer, 273 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:56.320 a better developer in general, and maybe in the future again, 274 00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:59.919 Oh no, Now I don't have a job with Elix, 275 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.200 but they have a Java job, so I can do 276 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:06.960 Java too. And this this is sorry, this is a 277 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:10.240 real case. A friend of mine she had an elixirve 278 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:14.600 job and then she went to Sweden to be an 279 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:19.279 airline developer, and then she found a Java job. So yeah. 280 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.039 In my experience, the whole idea of being a generalist 281 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.559 sort of turns out to be a pretty good specialty 282 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:31.039 and just having multiple things to lean on and having 283 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:36.480 a wide knowledge of technology servers. For example, the field 284 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.440 of web development is by its very nature, extremely wide. 285 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:43.399 There's a ton of things you should know to be 286 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:49.120 really knowledgeable about the web, both back and front, and 287 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:54.159 the web standards and APIs. There are so many things, 288 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:58.200 and every domain in programming is basically like that, and 289 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.639 that there's a lot of depth and there's a lot 290 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:04.160 of width. And of course you can focus down on 291 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.960 a language to become an absolute expert in wielding the 292 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:13.599 minute details of Java or Elixir or Python or C. 293 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.319 But you can also pick up a few different languages 294 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:20.880 or pick up a wide skill set where okay, you 295 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.440 need a SQL database up and running, or now we 296 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:28.160 need to set up some additional servers, or we need 297 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:31.480 to write something in this language because we're using a 298 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:35.279 project written in an entirely different language. Is there anyone 299 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.039 that can actually read the code and work with it? 300 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:38.480 Okay? 301 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.000 Yeah, If you know a few languages, picking up a 302 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.079 new one, for example, is usually fairly straightforward, except when 303 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.240 you run into the paradigm shift of functional programming, for example. 304 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:55.599 But I think having that generalist approach tends to I've 305 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.960 often heard the advice to specialize you need to be 306 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.720 good at a specific and I think I think people 307 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:05.680 mistake what that should be and what that needs to be. 308 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.519 I think you can be very experienced. You can be 309 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:12.200 an expert. That doesn't mean that you know every detail 310 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:14.920 of the language. It can, but then you're a language 311 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:18.680 doctor or a language specialist. That's usually not the most 312 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:24.759 useful value add for a particular endeavor in my experience, 313 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:27.880 and I mean, it strikes me, Adolpho, that you are 314 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.440 essentially starting to move people in this direction right with 315 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:33.960 your functional programming course and with the way that the 316 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.400 world is moving or needs to move. Maybe it's a 317 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.519 movie there fast enough, but it strikes me that you've 318 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.000 you've at some point you've made a decision and to 319 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:46.839 take people in this direction. When when was that? 320 00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.559 When did you start to be more of kind of 321 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:53.599 open up the blinders a little bit. In the United States, 322 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:56.160 there are a whole lot of schools that are invested 323 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.920 in teaching Java and teaching Microsoft because that's where the certification, 324 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:02.759 and they've made investments in those places and they just 325 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:03.440 came break away. 326 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.319 I have a lot of freedom here in the public university, 327 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.880 where the government owns the university and it's free for 328 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:16.200 the students, so I can offer the course. I have 329 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:19.880 some freedom to offer some courses, and I decided to 330 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:26.160 start this functional programming course. And functional programming is getting 331 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:31.119 more well known with Brazilian software developers because there is 332 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:35.000 a big company called New Bank, which it's a kind 333 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:38.759 of a banking, a digital banking company. They have a 334 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:42.119 credit card and they bought platform Attack, which is the 335 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:46.839 company where Giosefelin. Actually Giosefeline not only worked that, but 336 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.839 he was one of the owners of the company. And 337 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:55.160 after that, the same company bought Cognity Tact, which was 338 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.240 the company is it still is the company behind Closure. 339 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:04.759 So there was some kind of publicity for functional programming 340 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:08.400 language here in Brazil because of these two companies that 341 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.519 were bought. So I hope that in the near future 342 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.720 I have more students for my functional programming plus. I 343 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:20.079 tried to offer them this because they what they learn 344 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:24.920 as mandatory courses is c C plus plus and job. 345 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:28.839 That's what they have to learn. But if they want, 346 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.519 they can learn Elixir too. 347 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.559 I think related to this kind of on the topic 348 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:38.839 of teaching and producing generalists, sort of what you're saying like, okay, well, 349 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.880 students are if not required, then they're kind of put 350 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:44.079 into these boxes to learn these three languages. And if 351 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:45.759 they want to, they can come up here and learn 352 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.799 this as well really releases something you said earlier, which 353 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.440 is that you're not teaching students alixir, although you know 354 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:54.920 hopefully you are. You're teaching them how to learn, and 355 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.400 I've always found that one of the best ways to 356 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:02.400 do that is to like make your students strategically uncomfortable, 357 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:04.880 like kind of let let them suffer a little. And 358 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:06.960 I'm gonna actually put Stephen in the hot seel a 359 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.079 little bit because I think that this is if that's 360 00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:11.680 my teaching ploss. I think I probably stole that from. 361 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:12.759 You a little bit. 362 00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:14.960 Yeah, I think that you know, there's they're sort of 363 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.519 the thinking about learning that you learn through uncomfort the most. 364 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.799 So the closer you can safely push people into being uncomfortable, 365 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:25.359 the faster they'll sort of learn. I think everything is 366 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:27.799 sort of theoretical until you've gotten to the point where 367 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:29.480 you're like, oh, I have a deadline and have to 368 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:31.960 build this project and I'm going to present in front 369 00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:34.960 of my entire class in two days. Oh my god, 370 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:36.319 this is the end of the world if I do 371 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.839 this wrong. But yeah, I think suffering is important, even 372 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:41.599 if I sound a little low mean when I say 373 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:44.359 I think that suffering and struggle is where you get 374 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:45.960 the best learning and where it sticks. 375 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:48.759 It's funny. There's a there's a man named Evan Miller, 376 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.559 which we should definitely have on this this this podcast 377 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.400 at some point. He's behind the Earling Project Chicago Boss 378 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:00.440 and so Adulfo. We were doing this mental that you're 379 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:03.119 part of, you know, long before you and I met. 380 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.960 We were doing it in Chattanooga and everyone would show 381 00:22:06.039 --> 00:22:09.039 up right pre pandemic. But Evan would look up my 382 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.599 shoulder when I was teaching somebody and someone would start 383 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.160 to go off in the wrong direction and that kind 384 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:17.319 of give them a general nudge, you know, kind of 385 00:22:17.359 --> 00:22:19.519 nuts the rudder every now and then, and you know, 386 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:22.359 I turn around and if it will be shaking his 387 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.519 head right, and then, you know, so I would try 388 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:28.000 to explain harder and he would be shaking his head. 389 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:32.559 And then so this one time I turned around, I said. 390 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.319 What, Evan, what you know what? Everybody just turned around. 391 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.039 I'm you know, usually pretty unflappable, right, but I was 392 00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:44.759 not that day. And he said, Bruce, it's all about 393 00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:50.240 the struggle. And so you know that's that's probably my 394 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:56.359 great weakness in a classroom setting is building in enough struggle, right, 395 00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.920 So I teach a lot of technique, so what I 396 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:01.799 should do is a lot mistakes to happen in the 397 00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:06.119 right context and be kind of a guide, be a 398 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:10.559 guardrail so that when the struggles happen, you can leave 399 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:14.079 opportunity to bring people back on course and then and 400 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:17.839 then cast them into the wind again. But yeah, you 401 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:18.759