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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 7: From eighteen ninety five to nineteen thirty seven, ninety three
Speaker 7: men were hanged at California's full State prison, and this
Speaker 7: book is the first to tell all of their stories,
Speaker 7: recounting long forgotten tales of murder and swift justice or
Speaker 7: sometimes swift injustice that hanged an innocent man. Based on
Speaker 7: a treasury of historical information that has been hidden from
Speaker 7: the public for nearly seventy years, the full stories of
Speaker 7: these ninety three executed men are presented in this collection,
Speaker 7: including their origins, their crimes, the investigations that brought them
Speaker 7: to justice, their trials, and their deaths at the gallows.
Speaker 7: This wealth of previously unpublished historical detail gives a vivid
Speaker 7: view of the sociology of early twentieth century crime and
Speaker 7: of the resulting prison life.
Speaker 9: Readers take a trip.
Speaker 7: Back in time to the hard boiled early twentieth century
Speaker 7: California that inspired the novels of Dashiell Hammett and countless
Speaker 7: other crime writers. Illustrated throughout with authentic and haunting prison
Speaker 7: photo graphs of each of the condemned men, the crimes
Speaker 7: and punishments of a vanished era are brought into a
Speaker 7: sharp and realistic light. The book that we're featuring the
Speaker 7: seating is Fulsom's ninety three, The Life and Crimes of
Speaker 7: Fulsome Prisms Executed Men, with my special guest journalist and
Speaker 7: author April More. Welcome to the program and thank you
Speaker 7: for agreeing to this interview. April More, thank you for
Speaker 7: having me.
Speaker 9: Thank you very much.
Speaker 7: Fascinating book and it takes us of myself and the
Speaker 7: reader back in time to turn of the century, so
Speaker 7: not the former one, the one before that. So for
Speaker 7: this book, it's incredible how you came to write this book.
Speaker 7: So let's go back and talk about your great great
Speaker 7: aunt Betty and who she was and her husband Tom,
Speaker 7: before we talk about the faithful day that you at
Speaker 7: your great great aunt Betty's.
Speaker 9: Came to begin your.
Speaker 7: Journey into this incredible story of Folsom's ninety three. So
Speaker 7: first tell us about your great great aunt Betty and
Speaker 7: her husband Tom.
Speaker 10: Well, my aunt Betty was certainly a character. She lived
Speaker 10: in la where most of my mother's side of the
Speaker 10: family lived, and she was married to Tom, who was
Speaker 10: about thirty years older than her, and she met him
Speaker 10: when she was a teenager. And he was a bookie,
Speaker 10: and he also owned some gambling clubs, and I know
Speaker 10: he'd had some dealings in Vegas with some hotels and such.
Speaker 10: And at some point in the nineteen forties, Tom went
Speaker 10: to fulsome to collect from an inmate who owned him,
Speaker 10: and he left with a box of mugshots of all
Speaker 10: ninety three men who were executed at Fulsom. Also in
Speaker 10: the box was a forty page text chronicling the history
Speaker 10: of Fulsom from oh the eighteen fifties when it was
Speaker 10: first discussed, and then up until nineteen forty three. So
Speaker 10: Tom didn't really know what to do with these, I mean,
Speaker 10: according to Betty, he really he didn't know what to
Speaker 10: do with them, and he put them in a box,
Speaker 10: stuck them in a closet and forgot about them, basically,
Speaker 10: and he'd passed away in nineteen seventy nine, and Betty
Speaker 10: found them, of course, and she didn't really know what
Speaker 10: to do with them either, but she kept them. She
Speaker 10: hung on to them, and so, oh gosh, mid eighties,
Speaker 10: late eighties, when I was probably ten or twelve, she
Speaker 10: would bring them out, and my sister and I would
Speaker 10: thumb through them and make up stories about them. And
Speaker 10: you know, they were creepy, they were funny. They had
Speaker 10: just looks on some of their faces were scary and funny.
Speaker 10: And at the time I really had no idea where
Speaker 10: folsome was or what it was about. But all we
Speaker 10: knew was that we had these creepy photos that my
Speaker 10: aunt had.
Speaker 7: Okay, so you're you're a young girl when you become
Speaker 7: fascinated with this, and you said in your book Very Interesting,
Speaker 7: that your great aunt was a very very flamboyant person
Speaker 7: very very striking and very interesting personality. And then one
Speaker 7: day she came and brought out the box and you
Speaker 7: took a look at it. So tell us how you
Speaker 7: come to be a writer, and and then how this
Speaker 7: project come to fruition for you in terms of the
Speaker 7: genesis of this whole sort turning into a book and
Speaker 7: you turning into an all.
Speaker 9: Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 10: Well, I hadn't really thought about the photos for years,
Speaker 10: and I had been writing off and on short stories, articles,
Speaker 10: and had written a novel, and so I was playing
Speaker 10: around writing and I've always enjoyed it. My father was
Speaker 10: a writer, and so it was kind of just something
Speaker 10: I did and I enjoyed it. But I had I
Speaker 10: didn't really have anything that I was working on at
Speaker 10: the time. So in two thousand and eight, I was
Speaker 10: going through some of my father's, my late father's writings,
Speaker 10: and I came across a copy of the text and
Speaker 10: because he was going to possibly write about it and
Speaker 10: he didn't, he wasn't able to do that, and so
Speaker 10: I thought, oh God, I haven't thought of these photos.
Speaker 10: I haven't seen these photos. I wonder if anyone has
Speaker 10: some still, because my aunt had passed away by that time.
Speaker 10: So I called my grandfather and I asked him, said, hey,
Speaker 10: you know, how about those fulsome mug shots? He still
Speaker 10: got those somewhere, And of course he was like, oh,
Speaker 10: I was so close to throwing these out. Oh I'm
Speaker 10: so glad you didn't. He said, well, you know, I
Speaker 10: don't know what you want with these these ugly mugs,
Speaker 10: but they're yours. So he sent them to me along
Speaker 10: with the original text that they came with. And I
Speaker 10: had really no idea what I was going to find.
Speaker 10: I had no agenda, no expectations. I just was interested
Speaker 10: in checking them out because really at the time, we
Speaker 10: didn't have Google and when I was a kid, and
Speaker 10: I had no idea what I was what I would find.
Speaker 10: So all of the photographs have the man's name, when
Speaker 10: he was received at the prison, his date of execution,
Speaker 10: so I had a lot of information to go on
Speaker 10: and so I plugged it. One of the guys, I
Speaker 10: plugged his name into Google and ended up coming back
Speaker 10: with many newspaper articles, some Google books that have in
Speaker 10: his case mentioned. So it was kind of exciting. I
Speaker 10: was like, oh, this is kind of neat, And just
Speaker 10: the more I searched, the more I found, and I
Speaker 10: just went through one by one and got as much
Speaker 10: as I could.
Speaker 9: Yes, fascinating.
Speaker 7: Now for this book, you have you outline in your book,
Speaker 7: one of the very first stories is talking about the
Speaker 7: gang Wars in eighteen ninety two in downtown Sacramento, with
Speaker 7: the bing Hongkong and the Chi Hongkong societies and the
Speaker 7: murder of a merchant named Lee Gong. But you also
Speaker 7: weave throughout this book, of course, the history, the fascinating
Speaker 7: history that was eighteen ninety five and previous to nineteen
Speaker 7: hundred and then shortly after and this story goes to
Speaker 7: nineteen thirty seven. So tell us about the situation for
Speaker 7: Asians in California, their conditions and how are they legally
Speaker 7: regarded and why at that time. So tell us a
Speaker 7: little give us a little bit of the history that's
Speaker 7: included before we talk about the particular case of the
Speaker 7: murder of Lie Gong.
Speaker 10: Sure, yeah, certainly. You know, with the gold rush, it
Speaker 10: brought in people from all over and a lot of
Speaker 10: Asians came to strike it rich. And I don't think
Speaker 10: California or anybody really was ready for that. And there
Speaker 10: was a lot of anti Chinese, anti Asian sentiment, and
Speaker 10: they were a lot of them were used at force labor,
Speaker 10: and so many came through Angel Island, which is basically
Speaker 10: an island outside California where immigrants were channeled through and
Speaker 10: many spent it was more like a prison before they
Speaker 10: were allowed to come into California. So it was it
Speaker 10: was incredibly harsh to be to be an immigrant in
Speaker 10: California at that time. There was so much anti Asian
Speaker 10: sentiment as far as taking jobs, and when you have
Speaker 10: money and gold involved, there's competition, and it was it
Speaker 10: wasn't a good time. I don't think a very good
Speaker 10: time for immigrants in California.
Speaker 7: Now, this store merchant was Lee Gong, and apparently at
Speaker 7: that time, with the two societies, of course you have
Speaker 7: to have allegiance to one of the societies. So there
Speaker 7: was talk that this was maybe the reason for the murder.
Speaker 7: But tell us about the murder itself. And his wife's
Speaker 7: name was ah Wah. I hope I didn't mispronounce that,
Speaker 7: but that's her name, and he's forty five years old
Speaker 7: at that time.
Speaker 9: So tell us about the situation.
Speaker 7: As you outline in the book about Lie Gong and
Speaker 7: his wife is a couple daughters. So tell us about
Speaker 7: the circumstances around before and during this murder.
Speaker 10: So, Lie Gong was a cigar store owner and his
Speaker 10: apartment was attached above from what I understand, was above
Speaker 10: the store. And two men came into this store and
Speaker 10: all Wong ah Wah was in the also. She was
Speaker 10: behind the counter and her husband was in an adjacent room,
Speaker 10: but there was a window into the other room where
Speaker 10: he was sitting, and two men came in and asked
Speaker 10: for cigars, and according to the wife, she turned her
Speaker 10: back to retrieve a cigar, and one of the men
Speaker 10: pointed a gun through the window and shot her husband
Speaker 10: and then fled the store. And the family's cook apparently
Speaker 10: came out and he had a gun and he shot
Speaker 10: his gun in the air, and he couldn't find the assailants.
Speaker 10: But the wife said that one of the men had
Speaker 10: a scar down the side of his face. So police
Speaker 10: were searching for a man with a scar, and they
Speaker 10: found a man. He was she Jen Hayne was in
Speaker 10: in someone's house smoking opium, and he had he had
Speaker 10: just arrived in Sacramento just a day earlier, I believe,
Speaker 10: And but according to witness testimony, Hain had been in
Speaker 10: this house all day long, all evening and hadn't left.
Speaker 10: So there was a so much conflicting testimony as to
Speaker 10: whether this man was there or was not there and
Speaker 10: what happened. This gun shot had sparked another riot among
Speaker 10: the two Chinese gangs. So there was a lot of
Speaker 10: gunfire and a lot of just chaos going on, and
Speaker 10: police rounded up Hayin and another man and brought them
Speaker 10: to the jail, and a lot of people were saying,
Speaker 10: that's not the right man, that's not the right man.
Speaker 10: And over the course of I think it was about
Speaker 10: a year a year and a half before the case,
Speaker 10: they didn't want to trial, and by that time the
Speaker 10: cook he had he was nowhere to be found anymore.
Speaker 10: And I believed shortly after the child, the wife also
Speaker 10: left and it was rumored that she ran away with
Speaker 10: the cook and that the cook her husband. So that
Speaker 10: was the That was a sentiment among most of the
Speaker 10: Chinese during that time regarding the case.
Speaker 9: What you includes, sorry, go ahead, Oh.
Speaker 10: No, I'm just saying there there was no other physical
Speaker 10: evidence to link Chinhne to the crime, and a lot
Speaker 10: of inconsistent testimony, and frankly, I don't know that he
Speaker 10: really received a fair trial.
Speaker 7: There was a witness Nam yes so Jim that led
Speaker 7: police initially to Hayne, and also there was controversy eventually
Speaker 7: with ah Wab with the eyewitness testimony. Wasn't there there
Speaker 7: was supposed to be you know, irrefutable evidence, because he'd
Speaker 7: have this major scar on the side of his head.
Speaker 7: So there was, like you said, there's many people saying
Speaker 7: that they got the wrong man. But what was his
Speaker 7: wife testimony in terms of who had actually killed her husband?
Speaker 10: She you know, she didn't know his name, she didn't
Speaker 10: know who he was. That she saw this scar and
Speaker 10: it could have been someone we really don't know. Uh,
Speaker 10: it was really based on her testimony. So and yet
Speaker 10: there was no other But there are witnesses that said
Speaker 10: he was never he was never even near the cigar shop.
Speaker 10: He was never even in the cigar shop. Even the
Speaker 10: man he was convicted with, you know, he said he
Speaker 10: wasn't eve there he had. The man that he was
Speaker 10: convicted with had been shot in the leg from a
Speaker 10: previous riot and was in bed at the time. So
Speaker 10: to me, it feels like there's there was a lot
Speaker 10: of unanswered questions, and there's a lot of going through
Speaker 10: the trial transcripts, there was a lot of questions that
Speaker 10: the prosecution never addressed, which I found interesting and and
Speaker 10: just so much to me, a lot of doubt when
Speaker 10: you have so many witnesses collaborating with Hain and you
Speaker 10: know he basically had an alibi. But and it could
Speaker 10: have been that she had seen this man the day
Speaker 10: before or the day of and saw the scar and
Speaker 10: and considered him the perfect scapegoat.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
Speaker 7: It was interesting too that you include in your book
Speaker 7: that this is how the newspapers reported. Quote one of
Speaker 7: the daughters exhibited as much feeling and agony as any
Speaker 7: white child under the circumstances.
Speaker 10: Kind of explained, Yeah, and that and that's how reporters did,
Speaker 10: and they how they treated minorities, and the language they
Speaker 10: use is just, you know, heinous, It was as awful.
Speaker 10: So there really a lot of minorities, especially the Chinese,
Speaker 10: you know, once they were arrested for something, they really
Speaker 10: they couldn't win. They when they when you have the
Speaker 10: media and with anything even today, and you have the
Speaker 10: media projecting you as as this. You know, they called
Speaker 10: Indians half breeds and these horrible names. You really you
Speaker 10: don't stand a chance.
Speaker 5: Right right.
Speaker 7: What's interesting too is that the very first execution in
Speaker 7: fulsome prison is also comes with it controversy of somebody
Speaker 7: being executed wrongfully.
Speaker 9: Again.
Speaker 7: I just thought that that was very ironic, mm hmm.
Speaker 7: Very first, and you already got controversy right away with
Speaker 7: with the execution, right, you know.
Speaker 10: And I'm sure the information. I tried to find as
Speaker 10: much information as I could to present it. But in
Speaker 10: my eyes, I am not so sure that yeah, that
Speaker 10: he did it. So just based on the trial transcripts,
Speaker 10: certainly reasonable.
Speaker 9: Doubt, right, certainly.
Speaker 7: Now you include in your book to the actual event itself,
Speaker 7: the death by hanging. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: about the ritual itself that started in eighteen ninety five
Speaker 7: with their first execution. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 7: what actually happens. What did actually happen.
Speaker 10: When they prepare for a hanging. Yes, well it's typically done,
Speaker 10: and they start preparing weeks weeks ahead as far as
Speaker 10: getting a rope, and that was typically made of hemp.
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Speaker 7: They'll we necessary dalyoid where every boy lost in terms
Speaker 7: conditions eighting plus.
Speaker 10: Stretching it and soaking it in water and stretching it.
Speaker 10: And I don't know all the mathematical formulas involved, but
Speaker 10: they had to know the man's weight and height, and
Speaker 10: so much of that went into how long the rope
Speaker 10: was cut, how many and how high it had to
Speaker 10: be strung up. There is certainly a science to it.
Speaker 10: So once the rope is prepared, the men who are
Speaker 10: on death row at Folshoom at least they were in
Speaker 10: condemned condemned row, which I also called the back alley,
Speaker 10: and you would start out there are two tiers of
Speaker 10: cells and of these window lists, they're these rooms that
Speaker 10: had no windows. The doors were solid, and they would
Speaker 10: start at the bottom and work their way as executions
Speaker 10: took place, they would work their way to the next
Speaker 10: cell and the next cell until they're at the top
Speaker 10: and closest to the gallows. And so when you knew
Speaker 10: when your neighbor was executed, and you would be moving
Speaker 10: to the next cell, and you're beginning closer and closer.
Speaker 7: Well, the next important story that you included this is
Speaker 7: about Ivan Kovalev. In eighteen ninety three, he and nine
Speaker 7: other men had escaped Siberia's Saghalian prison and made their
Speaker 7: way to San Francisco.
Speaker 9: And when they came, they of course wanted up.
Speaker 7: Of course they lied about who they were apparently, and
Speaker 7: and so tell us a little bit about how they
Speaker 7: came to not how they came to San Francisco, but
Speaker 7: what happened once they did get to San Francisco, involving
Speaker 7: the media and of course the authorities and anthon.
Speaker 10: This is certainly a case where the media worked in
Speaker 10: their favor. These are men who claim to be political
Speaker 10: prisoners in Russia. And uh, there had been an author
Speaker 10: who had visited the prison like a year earlier and
Speaker 10: had reported on all these horrible abuses at this prison
Speaker 10: and the conditions and and so when the US got
Speaker 10: wind of this, and then they hear these these ten
Speaker 10: poor prisoners you know, out at sea for have her
Speaker 10: many days arrived in San Francisco, they there was a
Speaker 10: lot of you know, they felt sorry for them and felt,
Speaker 10: you know, we need to give them asylum and give
Speaker 10: them a home, and even Russia. I was saying, no,
Speaker 10: you know, you guys, just send these guys back. The
Speaker 10: US said, you know, well, well we'll take care of
Speaker 10: this well, and and they did. And then you know,
Speaker 10: they they they let these men free, go free. They
Speaker 10: they I saw a reference that they they put them
Speaker 10: in on display at a five and die museum and
Speaker 10: and then they pretty much then disappeared into society. However,
Speaker 10: many of them within the next year were back in prison,
Speaker 10: and ivan Kovalev was probably the worst of the worst.
Speaker 10: Uh And he and a couple of other Russians murdered
Speaker 10: a couple, very brutally murdered a couple who an elderly
Speaker 10: couple who owned a store and their their house. Their
Speaker 10: apartment was above the store.
Speaker 7: Now, by this time, his of favor with the media
Speaker 7: was probably over. So tell us how the media now
Speaker 7: treated ivan Kovalev, given now that he was up for
Speaker 7: murder and these other some of the other prisoners, Like
Speaker 7: you say, within a couple of years, a year or two,
Speaker 7: a lot of them were back in folsome.
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean the sentiment towards them. And
Speaker 10: you know, I'm one eight, and they and they, and
Speaker 10: of course they all came out and said, oh, how
Speaker 10: could you guys do this? How could how could the
Speaker 10: US let these criminals into the country. So it uh
Speaker 10: suddenly nobody wanted to have anything to do with letting
Speaker 10: them in. And we're quite angry. And I mean it
Speaker 10: was such a vicious, horrible crime too that I think
Speaker 10: they obviously regretted their decision, but nothing they could do
Speaker 10: about it at that point.
Speaker 7: And he was caught of inadvertently too, with some of
Speaker 7: the bounty from from the theft, because this was about
Speaker 7: this woman had a lot of money and a lot
Speaker 7: of jewelry, so well there was a lot of jewelry,
Speaker 7: and they found jewelry after they had found this, you know,
Speaker 7: not so careful criminal intoxicated, and then they found the
Speaker 7: jewelry in the jail cell.
Speaker 10: So right, So he had been arrested for this early
Speaker 10: conduct and over new years and had been in prison
Speaker 10: or had been in jail overnight, and he knew he
Speaker 10: was probably going to get searched, and he put a
Speaker 10: watch that way he had stolen from the victim and
Speaker 10: hid it in his cell. And so when he left,
Speaker 10: he left, and so they didn't find it till later,
Speaker 10: but eventually, you know, eventually they were able to figure
Speaker 10: out who he was by talking to people, talking to
Speaker 10: people who knew this particular alias that he used, so
Speaker 10: they were able to locate him. And at the time too,
Speaker 10: he was wearing clothing from the husband, wearing suspenders and
Speaker 10: pants and a jacket, so he was certain he's wearing
Speaker 10: the evidence.
Speaker 7: So his trial progressed. Of course, he how did he plead?
Speaker 7: But the inevitable obviously he was executed. So tell us
Speaker 7: just a little bit about the trial and the wrap.
Speaker 9: Up and then.
Speaker 10: Right, well, he claimed he didn't do it. He of course,
Speaker 10: he blamed his partners for so that he was just there.
Speaker 10: He was there, but he didn't didn't take any part
Speaker 10: in it. There was from what I understand, he didn't
Speaker 10: speak He spoke very little English and spoke through an interpreter.
Speaker 10: So I think I can imagine that was a difficult
Speaker 10: for people listening for the jury, uh, to to keep up.
Speaker 10: And but he admitted it. He said that he was
Speaker 10: present when it when the murder took place, and uh,
Speaker 10: and he basically he kind of lost his mind too.
Speaker 10: He he was the reporters were saying that he was
Speaker 10: a walking dead man. And you can kind of tell
Speaker 10: from the picture he was very his face was very
Speaker 10: sunken in and and uh, I think he was very
Speaker 10: haunted by what he had done and his uh when
Speaker 10: he was offered whiskey right before his execution, he opted
Speaker 10: for a glass of milk instead. So and and he
Speaker 10: was called a cringing coward and was weak and trembling
Speaker 10: on the on the gallows, and and didn't say a
Speaker 10: word before he fell through the trap.
Speaker 7: As we spoke about in the before the program, it
Speaker 7: seemed it was fascinating to me that there was even
Speaker 7: despite the heinous nature of a lot of these criminals,
Speaker 7: hence they were executed, but there still was a code
Speaker 7: of honor or manliness attached to how you went to
Speaker 7: those gallows. So just tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 10: Oh sure, I mean you had you have a little
Speaker 10: pride your uh what, no matter what you were in
Speaker 10: there for, whether you were guilty or innocent. And men
Speaker 10: would be oftentimes, you know, their hands would be tied
Speaker 10: behind their backs and maybe walking to the gallows, and
Speaker 10: they have a cigarette hanging out of their mouths, And
Speaker 10: and I think they wanted to show that they weren't scared,
Speaker 10: and many of them, I think did that. Others I
Speaker 10: think were, you know, the the horrible. I would imagine
Speaker 10: the feeling of walking to your death, but I was,
Speaker 10: you know, And I have to hand it to some
Speaker 10: of them, because they did, if you want to call it,
Speaker 10: you know, I took it like a man. And it
Speaker 10: was their last opportunity to say be words. Not always,
Speaker 10: but they would, you know, say oh so long, boys,
Speaker 10: or you know, or something to that nature. But you know,
Speaker 10: and I was amazed by many when I was reading
Speaker 10: about the accounts of their execution, how strong willed many
Speaker 10: of them were. Even those who went to their death
Speaker 10: claiming their innocence, they were calm and collected.
Speaker 9: It's fascinating.
Speaker 7: This is one of the more most important stories in
Speaker 7: the book, and also it has repercussions later and importance.
Speaker 7: Later is July twenty seventh, nineteen year oh three.
Speaker 5: Warden.
Speaker 7: You introduced these wardens that, as we talked about before,
Speaker 7: they are weaved through this.
Speaker 9: Through the entire book.
Speaker 7: As well as being law reformers, governors that at that
Speaker 7: time that were in control of the state, and these
Speaker 7: wardens that were highly regarded wardens at these major prisons
Speaker 7: dealing with the most serious criminals. So you talk about
Speaker 7: a warden, Thomas Wilkinson, and you talk about the day
Speaker 7: they met with guards and inmates in the captain's office, right,
Speaker 7: and they were acting like a sort of a court
Speaker 7: hearing for inmates. And so tell us about what happened
Speaker 7: with these seven or eight convicts in this office that day.
Speaker 10: Okay, So it was it was customary for Wilkinson to
Speaker 10: meet with convicts in the captain's office to hear about
Speaker 10: any insubordinate acts, anything, any infractions, and you know, punishments
Speaker 10: would be meted out and and they would be on
Speaker 10: their way and.
Speaker 9: So and it.
Speaker 10: And it certainly was a oh, a controversial method for
Speaker 10: for a lot of wardens to be doing this because
Speaker 10: they didn't have weapons, they didn't have anything like that.
Speaker 10: And but you know, he took that, he took that risk.
Speaker 10: And so there was about seven inmates who had conspired
Speaker 10: beforehand to take the warden and his guard's hostage, and
Speaker 10: and they did. They stormed the office and one would
Speaker 10: one grab the warden, one grab There was a couple
Speaker 10: of the guards in into the office and they had
Speaker 10: razor blades and and you know prison made knives and
Speaker 10: it was it was pure chaos and is according to Wilkinson,
Speaker 10: there was blood, blood falling in all directions and uh,
Speaker 10: chairs were flying when one guard got beat with a chair,
Speaker 10: I believe, and and it was just it was just, ma'am.
Speaker 10: And what they the ultimate goal for the convicts were
Speaker 10: at the time now fulsom didn't have walls around they were.
Speaker 10: There was a river, the American rivers on one side,
Speaker 10: and then there the other three sides were uh, there
Speaker 10: was there was no wall. There was what was called
Speaker 10: the deadline, and convicts knew you didn't cross that line
Speaker 10: or one of the tower guards was gonna let you
Speaker 10: know with his his gun. So what the convicts had
Speaker 10: hoped to do and what they ultimately succeeded in doing,
Speaker 10: was using the guards and the warden as human shields.
Speaker 10: And they got to the armory and the warden told
Speaker 10: the armory guards to let these guys in, drop the
Speaker 10: key down, and they stormed the armory, loaded themselves full
Speaker 10: of weapons, and proceeded to basically walk out of the
Speaker 10: prison with these guards and the warden as their shields.
Speaker 10: And they escaped about a mile away and they did
Speaker 10: let the warden go. They changed, they made them change clothes.
Speaker 10: So they sent the warden back in his underwear. And
Speaker 10: uh they sent a few a couple of the guards back,
Speaker 10: one of one one was a sonographer, which was the
Speaker 10: warden's grandson, I believe, And they did keep a few more.
Speaker 10: They kept I think five guards hostage. And and so
Speaker 10: they they succeeded. And let's see, they see there was
Speaker 10: thirteen prisoners total had escaped, and uh so, of course
Speaker 10: the the National Guard was called and and it was
Speaker 10: it was a very intense manhunt for actually a couple
Speaker 10: of months.
Speaker 9: And five convicts you say, were never never caught.
Speaker 10: Never recaptured, right, two of them were killed and five
Speaker 10: are never recaptured. And then the remaining ones were captured.
Speaker 10: They were brought back to fulsome but right, we don't
Speaker 10: know whatever happened to the five of them.
Speaker 7: It was interesting too, is that they there were reports
Speaker 7: that the escaped convicts were very polite to the people
Speaker 7: that they robbed.
Speaker 10: Yeah, many of the newspaper reports were all consistent saying
Speaker 10: that they were juvial. They were I think they're just
Speaker 10: so thrilled to be out a wholesome uh that they would.
Speaker 10: Actually they actually left money to those some of the
Speaker 10: farmers who fed them. And really the farmers had no
Speaker 10: choice because they had weapons. But they were they were
Speaker 10: very polite and cordial and in fact many and there's
Speaker 10: a couple of them who insisted that none of them
Speaker 10: be violent. So it was certainly not what you would expect.
Speaker 7: No, there were two guards that again are prominent in
Speaker 7: this story and not just in this one story but
Speaker 7: throughout this whole book as PJ. Cochrane guard and R. J. Murphy,
Speaker 7: which happened to be one of the hostages along with Wilkinson. Initially,
Speaker 7: there was criticism right after this, and we're talking major
Speaker 7: criticism of the warden's policy that not to shoot.
Speaker 9: To kill despite these shields.
Speaker 7: So tell us what the criticism was and what they
Speaker 7: had said they should have done with the guards as
Speaker 7: human shields.
Speaker 10: Right, So, the the the prison board of directors was,
Speaker 10: you know, they were incredibly well, they were angry at
Speaker 10: the the way Wilkinson had conducted business, allowing and maids
Speaker 10: into the office and and and doing that sort of thing.
Speaker 10: But to to not to tell their guards not to shoot,
Speaker 10: that was the whole The idea is that you do
Speaker 10: everything you cannot to get not to let prisoners escape,
Speaker 10: and if that means putting yourself in danger, then then.
Speaker 9: So be it.
Speaker 10: And and that was that was a very harsh criticism
Speaker 10: from the from the prison board, that that never should
Speaker 10: have happened, and they never should have gotten to the armory,
Speaker 10: and they never should have given up the key, because
Speaker 10: there were guards who said they had a clear shot
Speaker 10: of a a few of the inmates but were ordered
Speaker 10: not to shoot. So things could have turned out differently
Speaker 10: had he been allowed to.
Speaker 7: You talk about a trustee named Joseph Casey. So in
Speaker 7: the end he gets pardoned for his compassion towards the garden,
Speaker 7: his role in helping the other side, as it were.
Speaker 9: PJ.
Speaker 7: Cochrane in the end becomes very important captain of the guard.
Speaker 7: So let's talk about PJ. Cochrane and after this what
Speaker 7: he's is he known for in terms of the treatment
Speaker 7: of prisoners. So we can get into some of the
Speaker 7: things like the straight jacket and some of the other
Speaker 7: the other things that were the rigor in fulsome prison
Speaker 7: at that time.
Speaker 10: Right, it's certainly de pant On who you talked to.
Speaker 10: There were many written accounts from former in mates at
Speaker 10: the time, who would who thought Cochrane was basically a
Speaker 10: guard of torture and because at this time corporal punishment
Speaker 10: was still in vogue and and and used, And Cochran's
Speaker 10: job was to lace up the straight jackets, which was
Speaker 10: pretty horrendous. UH, punishment met it out in those days.
Speaker 10: And there was an inmate named Jack Black who had
Speaker 10: written his memoir and had spent much time in fulsome
Speaker 10: and talked about how many of the inmates hated Cochrane
Speaker 10: and and many and during this particular riot, UH, many
Speaker 10: of the escapees targeted Cochrane because of the punishments he
Speaker 10: had quite.
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Speaker 9: Right now.
Speaker 7: You talk about the Jake Oppenheimer and he talks about
Speaker 7: he was stood the punishment for one hundred and ten
Speaker 7: hours of the straight jack, and you talk about it.
Speaker 7: They used to call it the bag. It's like a corset,
Speaker 7: like very very tight. It was so tight that they
Speaker 7: would often get permanent in crippling paralysis out of the
Speaker 7: deal or be crippled from the ordeal itself, and some
Speaker 7: even died talking about pouring the Epsen salts down their
Speaker 7: throats at the same time. And then something called the
Speaker 7: Iron Maiden virtual vice and the hooks so where prisoners
Speaker 7: were pulled apart. So this one went on for at
Speaker 7: least till nineteen twelve you say, at.
Speaker 10: Least even probably beyond that a little bit. I'm sure
Speaker 10: prisons got away with it as long as they possibly
Speaker 10: could without somebody uh noticing. But yeah, I mean these
Speaker 10: were common punishments. And I'm sure there are many others
Speaker 10: that I don't know about, but uh, the straight jacket
Speaker 10: was certainly a common one. And they would strip the
Speaker 10: inmates down, uh and put the straight jacket on them
Speaker 10: and tighten it with they would stick a piece of
Speaker 10: wood like a baton, and they threw the loops and
Speaker 10: would tighten it and tighten it, and and uh they
Speaker 10: would The inmates would lose almost really all feeling in
Speaker 10: their in their bodies and their limbs, and they couldn't
Speaker 10: go to the bathroom, they couldn't eat, they couldn't drink,
Speaker 10: they couldn't do anything. They would just lay them on
Speaker 10: the floor. And yeah, many of them were permanently disfigured
Speaker 10: or died from this, uh, very common punishment. So maybe
Speaker 10: I can't imagine.
Speaker 7: No, in your book, you have a very very fascinating
Speaker 7: story that seems and again what I thought in your
Speaker 7: book was is that even though it's over one hundred
Speaker 7: years before, there seems to be parallels and very very
Speaker 7: commonalities with how lawyers act, how defendants act, how murderers act.
Speaker 9: And then the psychopathic tendencies that these they have to deny, deny.
Speaker 7: So let's talk about Adolph Julius Weber, who is twenty
Speaker 7: years old, nineteen oh six in Auburn, California, wealthy family,
Speaker 7: his mother Mary's, sister Bertha, and brother Earl caught in
Speaker 7: a fire. So tell us a little bit about this
Speaker 7: fascinating story.
Speaker 10: Adolf Weber. He was probably one of the most fascinating
Speaker 10: to me in the book. Twenty years old, very wealthy,
Speaker 10: prominent family and just outside Auburn, California. And he was
Speaker 10: a little odd, a little detached nature kind of kid.
Speaker 10: He wasn't always that way, but he kind of developed
Speaker 10: into this odd, odd teenager that a lot of people
Speaker 10: steered away from. And in say nineteen oh four, his
Speaker 10: neighbors found his house on fire, basically, and the house
Speaker 10: was boarded up. We're all closed up, locked up, the windows, doors, everything,
Speaker 10: and so they thought the family was away, and so
Speaker 10: they broke windows to get into at least try to
Speaker 10: get out some furniture and save what they could, and
Speaker 10: they stumbled upon the bodies of Mary Weber and Bertha Weber,
Speaker 10: the mother and her daughter Bertha. And then they also
Speaker 10: found the body of Earl who was six years old.
Speaker 10: And and Adolph was under a tree basically watching the
Speaker 10: scene unfold, which is where he was found by by people.
Speaker 10: And he had a cut on his hand that was bleeding.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 10: And but he couldn't really say what happened. He said
Speaker 10: that he had to get into the house, he had
Speaker 10: to save as his mother. But you know, be given
Speaker 10: his detached nature, no one really saw this as odd, uh,
Speaker 10: just because he was an odd character. But what turned
Speaker 10: out once the the fire had by the next day,
Speaker 10: they found the body of his father with a bullet wound,
Speaker 10: and then his mother and sister also had bullets in
Speaker 10: him as well. So it had turned quickly to what
Speaker 10: may have been an accident a fire was a cover
Speaker 10: up of a murder.
Speaker 7: Also, at the same time, there's a bizarre bank robbery
Speaker 7: that had occurred previously, where this brazen robber jumped over
Speaker 7: the counter, stole six thousand dollars, shot at a clerk,
Speaker 7: and escaped with a horse and cart into the hills.
Speaker 7: The officials officially eventually found the band it's false beard
Speaker 7: shirt and overalls. Tell us what the connection is with
Speaker 7: this bank robbery and this murder.
Speaker 10: Well, the money was found buried outside of the weber barn,
Speaker 10: so the money that was stolen and that. So once
Speaker 10: they found the money, it was pretty easy to kind
Speaker 10: of put the dots together and determine that this agile
Speaker 10: robber was likely the same. Well, it was likely ate
Speaker 10: off and there was a I'm trying to remembercause some
Speaker 10: of the I know there was a there was a
Speaker 10: gun used at the bank robbery, and then a gun
Speaker 10: used for the murders. And there was a gun store
Speaker 10: owner who was able to identify Aidolf as the one
Speaker 10: who purchased the gun from him. So, but once they
Speaker 10: found the money buried, they pretty much knew that Adolf
Speaker 10: was behind the robbery about six months earlier, and it
Speaker 10: was proposed that the reason he killed his family was
Speaker 10: because his father his parents had found out about the
Speaker 10: robbery and he wanted to silence them.
Speaker 7: Basically, it's interesting too what money did for you at
Speaker 7: that time, not so dissimilar to what money can do
Speaker 7: for you in terms of defense now. For robbing the bank,
Speaker 7: he settled out of court, returning sixty seven hundred dollars
Speaker 7: he had received, and at the law at the time,
Speaker 7: he received seventy one thousand dollars from his father's estate.
Speaker 10: Right, yeah, I mean at the time, there were no laws.
Speaker 10: There was nothing that could stand in the way from
Speaker 10: someone a murderer inheriting the fortune of those he murdered.
Speaker 10: And because of that, there was a law enacted to
Speaker 10: prevent anything like that from ever happening again. So yeah,
Speaker 10: it was insane. It was insane. The money that he
Speaker 10: inherited basically paid for his defense.
Speaker 7: And his defense too was really Again what again parallels
Speaker 7: to today was that it was very ambitious. They said
Speaker 7: he was paranoid and hallucinated in an insane at the
Speaker 7: time of the murder. Was he had nervous symptoms and
Speaker 7: they talked about sexual drive.
Speaker 9: And so it really was.
Speaker 7: They tried as hard as they could. It was a
Speaker 7: vigorous defense, wasn't it.
Speaker 10: It really was. And the thing was that there was
Speaker 10: there really was no physical evidence that linked him to
Speaker 10: the murders whatsoever, And it was all circumstantial. However, you know,
Speaker 10: he did it. It was just it was it all
Speaker 10: led to him and his you know, and there was
Speaker 10: some eyewitness testimony of his behavior and where he was.
Speaker 10: You know, he said he went for this job and
Speaker 10: this woman saw him and she happened to be a prostitute.
Speaker 10: So they tried. Of course, the defense tried to discredit
Speaker 10: her because of her profession, but even I mean even
Speaker 10: his defense, and they didn't really have a lot. He
Speaker 10: didn't really have He didn't have an alibi, but there
Speaker 10: were so many things that pointed to him doing it,
Speaker 10: from the people he ran into in town to his behavior.
Speaker 10: It just but you know, he continued to proclaim his
Speaker 10: innocence to the end.
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 7: Your next story or part of your book, you talk
Speaker 7: about California again at this time in the Pacific Electric
Speaker 7: Railway offering low cost mass transit to the southern part
Speaker 7: of the state, and they talk about a San Jose
Speaker 7: air show in nineteen ten, the first motion picture in
Speaker 7: Los Angeles in nineteen ten, and then the mining explosion.
Speaker 7: We already talked about Angel Island and what that ended
Speaker 7: up being, but there was sort of a they consider
Speaker 7: this under governor Hiram Johnston became a governor and then
Speaker 7: talked about how it was considered a progressive era unprecedented
Speaker 7: reform against the railroads corruptive regime. But also what that
Speaker 7: led to in terms of rights for women and also
Speaker 7: prison reform. So tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean it was that was such as a
Speaker 10: big time for California during during that time because you
Speaker 10: had the railroads. It was such a monopoly and they
Speaker 10: controlled the waterways, they controlled uh so much. And the
Speaker 10: citizens were sick of it. They're tired of it, and
Speaker 10: they know women suffrage and uh, you know, they were
Speaker 10: looking for change. They were looking for some forward thinking
Speaker 10: and tired of the status quo, and so you know,
Speaker 10: and and minorities were rising and demanding rights and just
Speaker 10: alongside the women, and and as far as the prison goes, uh,
Speaker 10: it was also a time to reform prisons and the
Speaker 10: treatment that the inmates were receiving, and and so it
Speaker 10: was it was a huge time for California during that
Speaker 10: that that era.
Speaker 7: It's interesting the reforms included. It seems amazing that they
Speaker 7: were they were that insightful at that time that there
Speaker 7: was parole now was available for low risk offenders, and
Speaker 7: they separated they thought, way, we should separate first time
Speaker 7: offenders from hardened convicts, and they abolished corporal punishment in
Speaker 7: prison and and built a farm, making the prison self sustaining.
Speaker 7: So the system under James A. Johnston warden and Hiram
Speaker 7: Johnston very interesting.
Speaker 9: And in these.
Speaker 7: Reforms he was such a reformer. He was moved to
Speaker 7: San quent and implemented reforms there. So these really the
Speaker 7: people that were wardens and the governors at the time
Speaker 7: were major prison reformers.
Speaker 10: Well, yeah, some of them were, not all of them,
Speaker 10: but those two absolutely, and especially Johnston he uh he
Speaker 10: was still well respected and in the in the prison
Speaker 10: penal system. And uh, not only did he go to
Speaker 10: San Quininey also all was at Alcatraz. So yeah, he
Speaker 10: saw he saw how you treat people and and and
Speaker 10: what you're going to get in return. And so you know,
Speaker 10: he knew that you shooting with somebody with respects, regardless
Speaker 10: of what they did, regardless of why they were in prison,
Speaker 10: you're going to get respect back. And and that was
Speaker 10: something I think previous wardens didn't quite understand. I mean,
Speaker 10: to them, these these prisoners were were there for reason,
Speaker 10: They're there to be punished and and and the more
Speaker 10: that they rebelled the worst. The punishment would and there
Speaker 10: was no mutual respect, and then there was always chaos.
Speaker 10: There are riots, there are uprisings. But Johnson sawt differently,
Speaker 10: where you you give these inmates something, I don't know
Speaker 10: if you want to call it, give them something they
Speaker 10: live for, but you you give them something, they'll give
Speaker 10: you something back. And it created an environment where there
Speaker 10: could be peace finally, at least for a little while
Speaker 10: in a very volatile place.
Speaker 9: Yeah, you talk about James A.
Speaker 7: Johnston did more changes at Folsome in one year than
Speaker 7: anyone else in history. And we talked interesting, you're talking
Speaker 7: about humane treatment. This is an extreme example of.
Speaker 4: That.
Speaker 9: In terms of.
Speaker 7: Jacob Jacob Oppenheim, we talked about him before and during
Speaker 7: the one hundred and ten hours of the Straight Jacket,
Speaker 7: and he was in solitary for years.
Speaker 9: So they called him the human Tagger.
Speaker 7: And apparently him and Warden Johnston, you know, they weren't friends,
Speaker 7: but they came friendly and john and the Human Tagger
Speaker 7: was called the worst criminal in California. They spent eighteen
Speaker 7: years in solitary. So tell us about a little bit
Speaker 7: about this condemned man, because he's there's a very interesting
Speaker 7: and complex character and a very good writer in terms
Speaker 7: of he wrote an autobiography called The Condemned Man. So
Speaker 7: tell us more about this fascinating interaction with Human Tagger
Speaker 7: Oppenheimer and Warden Johnston.
Speaker 10: Right, he was that he was probably of my if
Speaker 10: I had to pick a favorite, operenhimers probably my favorite,
Speaker 10: just because he was so fascinating and for what he
Speaker 10: had been through, for what he had been dealt. He
Speaker 10: had this and the fact that he was in solitary
Speaker 10: confinement for about sixteen eighteen years was his amazing insight
Speaker 10: into the outside world and the human psyche. And and
Speaker 10: his writings were beautiful and poiant and insightful and very unlikely,
Speaker 10: I expose you would expect of someone who spent so
Speaker 10: much time in solitary and who was also considered the
Speaker 10: human Tiger, and that he had this vision that he
Speaker 10: ripped people apart, and it really it really wasn't the case.
Speaker 10: And Johnson saw this in him. He saw that this
Speaker 10: is a human being, and there's a reason that maybe
Speaker 10: he is this way. There's a reason he lashes out.
Speaker 10: And you know, he approached him human to human and
Speaker 10: to find out really more about him, and they did
Speaker 10: end up kind of striking up this friendship which then
Speaker 10: also led to Oppenheimer. I think it demystified him in
Speaker 10: a way to the next warden who came in after Johnston,
Speaker 10: because he I think they under they were able to
Speaker 10: understand Oppenheimer a little more based on Johnston's experiences with him.
Speaker 7: Well, the Human Tagger though too was didn't like his confines,
Speaker 7: so he wanted to escape. He had pioneered this use
Speaker 7: of sort of like a Morse code with certain taps
Speaker 7: meaning certain things. And so he tried to escape, and
Speaker 7: the guy that ratted him out, he killed them. And
Speaker 7: so he would talk about why he killed all those men.
Speaker 9: He said self defense, right, yeah.
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean he says, you know, they goaded him,
Speaker 10: They egged him on, and and I think Oppenheimer had
Speaker 10: become this, I don't know, this strange figure in this
Speaker 10: prison because he bounced back from San Quentin to fulsome
Speaker 10: back and forth and kind of became this legendary figure
Speaker 10: I think to some of the inmates. And and he
Speaker 10: was a slight of stature. He is a small man,
Speaker 10: and and you know, I think a lot of the
Speaker 10: inmates probably goaded him. And not to say that it
Speaker 10: was right, what Oppenheimer had done. But in a way
Speaker 10: he kind of was this cage tiger that when he
Speaker 10: was let out, he he had revenge to to act out,
Speaker 10: so he had and he had a lot of time
Speaker 10: on his hands, so he had a lot of time
Speaker 10: to plan and these types of things. So he was
Speaker 10: he was a fascinating figure.
Speaker 9: Yeah, he said.
Speaker 7: It was like eloquent writer too, it seems. And and
Speaker 7: also that he had a certain charm. There was four
Speaker 7: thousand people at that time that signed documents not wanting
Speaker 7: him to be executed to Governor Johnson. And his lawyer,
Speaker 7: which was a really good lawyer at that time, worked
Speaker 7: pro bono for six years on his behalf right.
Speaker 10: He really believed in him, and and yeah, he was.
Speaker 10: He had a lot of supporters outside of the prison
Speaker 10: and certainly a lot of women admirers who sent him
Speaker 10: flowers and chocolates and things like that. But there was
Speaker 10: a lot of people, including like his attorney, who really
Speaker 10: believed he kind of got the raw end of the
Speaker 10: deal and that you know, he deserved much better treatment
Speaker 10: than what he was given. So and his his lawyer
Speaker 10: believed in him and believed in his case and believe
Speaker 10: that he at least deserved to be not in solitary
Speaker 10: confinement anymore, and he deserved to be with the other
Speaker 10: inmates and to have more of a life that other
Speaker 10: than living in this small, lightless cage.
Speaker 7: Basically, yeah, we don't have enough time to go through
Speaker 7: all of the stories, but one that we really want
Speaker 7: to talk about too is a little bit about sort
Speaker 7: of a modern application of the working criminals working outside
Speaker 7: of a prison. And in nineteen fourteen they started work
Speaker 7: on the California highways, which was really interesting. You talk
Speaker 7: about they would work two days, get one day off
Speaker 7: their sentence. But just what I found interesting was that
Speaker 7: they you said that had ten thousand inmates worked over
Speaker 7: this period of time, and one hundred and two escaped
Speaker 7: and never were captured.
Speaker 9: Tell us a little bit about this.
Speaker 10: Well, I wish I knew more about that, but I mean,
Speaker 10: I think it was pretty amazing accomplishment to have that
Speaker 10: many inmates out outside of the prison walls, ten thousand,
Speaker 10: and only having one hundred of them actually escape, and
Speaker 10: many of them just walked away from what they were doing.
Speaker 10: They walked away from the building, the roads and were
Speaker 10: never heard from again. Likely most of them who were
Speaker 10: taking part of this program were pretty low level criminals
Speaker 10: who were were eventually probably serving short sentences perhaps or
Speaker 10: who weren't considered danger to society. But you know, I
Speaker 10: mean it happened, and I mean it was probably very
Speaker 10: tempting for them to be able to do that. So
Speaker 10: but what it's it was a very successful program. And
Speaker 10: even today, Department of Corrections uses inmates for various forestry
Speaker 10: and fire protection projects and park maintenance. So so it's
Speaker 10: certainly been a program that's been around for a long
Speaker 10: time and and has proven to be successful.
Speaker 7: One of the more interesting historical facts that I found
Speaker 7: in your book, which again very very fascinating, was you
Speaker 7: talk about the Industrial Workers of the World and a
Speaker 7: uniform wage that they worked for in nineteen oh five,
Speaker 7: and they're the only union at that time that that
Speaker 7: would welcome all races and immigrants. But what I thought
Speaker 7: most fascinating is that you talk about how they were lynched, tortured,
Speaker 7: and imprisoned because they wouldn't support World War.
Speaker 10: One, right right exactly. And you know, they did accept minorities,
Speaker 10: and they did so they certainly with that alone, were
Speaker 10: considered outcasts in our way, and there was a stigma
Speaker 10: attached to these workers that they were sugs, and I'm patriotic,
Speaker 10: and you know that they were always out for trouble
Speaker 10: and and know it was unfortunate that that stigma was
Speaker 10: attached to those particular workers.
Speaker 7: You also talk about prohibition in nineteen nineteen and all
Speaker 7: the corruption that went from there and how that affected
Speaker 7: the prison population and society. And also the golden age
Speaker 7: of the klu Klux Klan with apparently four to five
Speaker 7: million members in nineteen twenty five. So that's very, very interesting,
Speaker 7: and an anti lynching bill defeated in nineteen twenty two,
Speaker 7: twenty three, and twenty four. That's an anti lynching bill, folks.
Speaker 7: Let's get to one of the most colorful characters in
Speaker 7: your book, and especially because of the crime. And I
Speaker 7: can't believe I'm reading this crime that many years ago,
Speaker 7: because it sounds like something that could happen right about now.
Speaker 7: And that's Alex Kells in nineteen twenty four, a wealthy
Speaker 7: butcher and his associate Edward master b I believe, So
Speaker 7: tell us about Lodi, California and Alex Kels.
Speaker 10: Well, Alex Kells, he was a very successful butcher in Lodia, California,
Speaker 10: and he, however, was in debt apparently, so he had
Speaker 10: to sign him the best way out. Well, I should
Speaker 10: back up. He he was married and had a nine
Speaker 10: year old daughter, and his wife was pregnant. So what
Speaker 10: Kel's decided to do was stage his own death. And
Speaker 10: what he had done was he had met Edward Missourvei
Speaker 10: at a unemployment agency and told him that he could
Speaker 10: use some work on his ranch and he would pay
Speaker 10: him room and board, and I think it was like
Speaker 10: two fifty a day, two dollars and fifty cents a day.
Speaker 10: And later that evening they found Kel's car backed into
Speaker 10: a haystack. It was on fire, and there was a
Speaker 10: body in the back seat, and his personal effects such
Speaker 10: as keys, were in the pockets. So what happened was
Speaker 10: that Kels killed this man, put him in the car,
Speaker 10: set the car on fire, and left. And he was
Speaker 10: on h for a few months. And and what's interesting too,
Speaker 10: is that somebody he knew recognized him in Nevada, and
Speaker 10: the poor man thought he had seen a ghost. And
Speaker 10: and but Alex Kells kept on and eventually was found
Speaker 10: uh in a in Eureka, California, ready to commit suicide.
Speaker 10: And when he was found. He was actually found by
Speaker 10: law enforcement from Lodi, who he knew and had known
Speaker 10: for years, and they brought him back to Lodi, and
Speaker 10: he had just asked that no one tell his wife
Speaker 10: that he was alive. So it was fascinating to me
Speaker 10: that for months his wife did not know that he
Speaker 10: was alive and sitting in jail, uh, you know, pleaded
Speaker 10: guilty and was going to be hanged. And she was pregnant,
Speaker 10: and nobody wanted to tell her this because she was pregnant. Obviously,
Speaker 10: they they thought it was a danger to her health
Speaker 10: and the help of the baby, so to be, this
Speaker 10: town kind of conspired together to protect this woman from
Speaker 10: the truth. So it was it was just a fascinating
Speaker 10: to me.
Speaker 7: It's interesting, despite the betrayal of her husband, she's a
Speaker 7: staunch supporter, not wanting him to be executed and claimed
Speaker 7: he was insane, and and she worked to appeal to
Speaker 7: the governor.
Speaker 10: Right she did. She she spent a lot of time
Speaker 10: at the Governor's office, even right up until you know,
Speaker 10: even on Christmas Eve, she was there. And I mean
Speaker 10: that she knows so much more, but nobody asked her
Speaker 10: and so she you know, she said she's very very
Speaker 10: bitter really that she was not told sooner that her
Speaker 10: husband was had been captured, and that there were these
Speaker 10: months that went by where she could have presented evidence
Speaker 10: that supported this theory that he was insane, that there
Speaker 10: that he wasn't right in the head, and that there
Speaker 10: was a lot of things that happened that she felt
Speaker 10: that he exhibited a lot of these hallucinations and paranoia
Speaker 10: that would for her explain why he had had killed
Speaker 10: this man.
Speaker 7: Very interesting too, that she received forty two thousand dollars
Speaker 7: from insurance policies eventually.
Speaker 9: See how she did. See how these laws are changed,
Speaker 9: can't you?
Speaker 10: Oh? Yeah, absolutely, just by right, I could say obviously
Speaker 10: it was fraud to get insurance money, and yet here
Speaker 10: she was able to collect a good portion of it.
Speaker 9: Let's talk about before we have to let you go
Speaker 9: about PJ. Cochrane. He was killed at a rock quarry.
Speaker 7: In nineteen twenty four and he had worked between he
Speaker 7: had worked at Folsom between eighteen ninety one and nineteen
Speaker 7: twenty four. So then also tell us just a little
Speaker 7: bit about nineteen twenty seven what the impetus was for,
Speaker 7: or you talk about the habitual criminal legislation the very
Speaker 7: similar to the three strikes and you're out now. So
Speaker 7: tell us a little bit about what seemed to happen
Speaker 7: there and that the new law.
Speaker 10: Yeah, the habitual crime was to I'm trying to find
Speaker 10: I haven't looked at this in a while. It was
Speaker 10: to keep habitual criminals kind of like well what you
Speaker 10: see mandatory tentency and laws today and two basically keep
Speaker 10: habitual criminals in as long as they possibly could, and
Speaker 10: kind of much like the three strikes your outlaw. I
Speaker 10: haven't looked this up in so long, and we have
Speaker 10: to excuse me for well, that's okay, answer what.
Speaker 7: You did talk about that it was just the you know,
Speaker 7: the times, and Fulsome was expanded to fit more inmates,
Speaker 7: so there was, and you talk about the advent of
Speaker 7: automobile parks. So we don't again, we don't have enough
Speaker 7: time to go into all of these fascinating stories. But
Speaker 7: you talk about the again, the years nineteen thirty seven,
Speaker 7: executions were were not done anymore by hanging. So tell
Speaker 7: us about the end of that era at Folsome and
Speaker 7: what it transpired or what it transformed to was the
Speaker 7: next step.
Speaker 10: So in May of nineteen thirty seven, California had decided
Speaker 10: to abandon hanging and all executions would take place at
Speaker 10: San Clinton at the gas chamber. So, you know, it
Speaker 10: was said that the gas chamber would be more humane
Speaker 10: and that hanging wouldn't be hanging with so violent of
Speaker 10: an act that and that the gas chamber would be
Speaker 10: much more calm and soothing, and that it was a
Speaker 10: better way to execute inmates, which really was quite the opposite.
Speaker 10: It was pray is from what history has said, it's
Speaker 10: a very awful, very painful way to die, was in
Speaker 10: the gas chamber. But regardless, Governor James Ralph Junior vetoed
Speaker 10: saying that the gas chamber will be experimenting with human misery. Uh,
Speaker 10: whereas San Quinton Warden basically said that the purpose is
Speaker 10: to remove these convicted people from society, and how it's
Speaker 10: done mattered very little. So it eventually has now changed
Speaker 10: the lethal injection and it's still still is occurring at
Speaker 10: San Quentin. But FOLSOM did their last execution in nineteen
Speaker 10: thirty seven.
Speaker 7: It's ironic that there's still there's still debate and also
Speaker 7: issue and problems with execution.
Speaker 9: Isn't there? Yeah?
Speaker 10: Absolutely, I mean I you know, if you ask me,
Speaker 10: there's just really probably no humane, clean, simple way to
Speaker 10: execute someone. And and there's it's such a each each
Speaker 10: method is so has its own flaws and uh and
Speaker 10: like now it's there's lethal injection is very uh tend
Speaker 10: to be flawed and botched. A lot of the inmates
Speaker 10: who are drug users have very unusual veins, so it's
Speaker 10: very difficult for people to administer that the drugs, and
Speaker 10: oftentimes the drugs don't do what they are supposed to
Speaker 10: do because they give them three drugs and one is
Speaker 10: supposed to render them unconscious, and uh, it doesn't always happen.
Speaker 10: And so when they give them the next drug, there
Speaker 10: they're experiencing the pain of their bodies shutting down when
Speaker 10: they shouldn't be. So so many things have happened, Power
Speaker 10: outages have occurred. You have people who are administering these
Speaker 10: are nervous, and some have been even intoxicated, and states
Speaker 10: don't require someone to even stay with the inmates to
Speaker 10: even ensure deep unconsciousness. So and sometimes these drugs can
Speaker 10: paralyze them so they're unable to speak or move and
Speaker 10: no one would know that they're still awake. So there's
Speaker 10: just I think there's a lot to be still figured
Speaker 10: out with this, and again, just doing a lot of
Speaker 10: the research with my book, I really feel there was
Speaker 10: you know, eight or nine of these men who were innocent.
Speaker 10: So I think until there's you know, we can ensure
Speaker 10: that everyone who's on death row is truly guilty. I think, right,
Speaker 10: It's just it's too much to gamble with.
Speaker 7: Well, the advent of any kind of wrongful conviction in
Speaker 7: terms of someone being killed on that wrongful conviction, I
Speaker 7: guess throws out the whole idea that you know, you
Speaker 7: rather let nine guilty gold than rather one innocent be convicted.
Speaker 7: While I mean, I guess that's his lip service. Before
Speaker 7: I let you go, I just wanted to mention to
Speaker 7: the readers. I just again to implore them that this
Speaker 7: book is chock full of these fascinating stories. And I'll
Speaker 7: just leave our audience with this headline for the story
Speaker 7: about Alfred Bollinger and his wife Eva and somebody named
Speaker 7: Alex Summers, and the headline in a newspaper was missus
Speaker 7: Eva Ballinger of Marysville tells her harrowing experiences as bride
Speaker 7: of men with bloodlinew was the headline where a woman
Speaker 7: ends up having the misfortune of having four out of
Speaker 7: her five husbands being killers. You know, what are the odds.
Speaker 7: So again, if you think some of this stuff is new,
Speaker 7: it's old. So it's a very very fascinating book including
Speaker 7: all of these stories and then the historical background that
Speaker 7: is necessary to really fully understand the times and the
Speaker 7: feelings and the emotions at that time and how things
Speaker 7: changed from really harsh treatment to a rehabilitation method basically imprisoned,
Speaker 7: self sustaining farms, payment of prisoners, freedom rights for prisoners.
Speaker 7: So very very interesting story of you included all of
Speaker 7: this and a wonderful, wonderful trip down memory lane in
Speaker 7: terms of true crime. So I want to thank you
Speaker 7: very much for that.
Speaker 10: Thank you.
Speaker 7: Now, if somebody were interested in I don't know if
Speaker 7: you have a website or if you do the Facebook thing,
Speaker 7: tell us how people might contact you if they're so interested.
Speaker 7: And of course this book is all over Amazon and
Speaker 7: Barnes and Noble, so easy to find, probably an ebook
Speaker 7: format as well as paperback. So tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit about if somebody wanted to contact you, will find
Speaker 7: more about this story or anything else you've done.
Speaker 9: Are going to do.
Speaker 10: Sure, I'd be happy to talk with anyone who's interested.
Speaker 10: They can find out more information on my website called
Speaker 10: Folsom's ninety three dot com and I blog about some
Speaker 10: of the stories I came across during my research. But
Speaker 10: you can also reach me through that, or you can
Speaker 10: go to Apriljmore dot com. And yeah, like I said,
Speaker 10: the book is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and yeah,
Speaker 10: it should be easy to find.
Speaker 9: Absolutely.
Speaker 7: I want to thank you very much April Moore coming
Speaker 7: on and talking about Fulsome's ninety three The Life and
Speaker 7: Crimes of Fullsome Prisons Executed Men. Thank you very much
Speaker 7: for coming on and talking about it. Thank you, thank you,
Speaker 7: and have a great evening.
Speaker 10: Good night, good night.
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