WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.120 Hey, guys, it's Jack. 2 00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:03.240 I just wanted to talk to you today about a 3 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:05.919 way that you can help support the podcast if you're 4 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:09.519 not already to support the channel, is to become a 5 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:13.000 Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that start at 6 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.919 just five dollars a month, and when you sign up, 7 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:19.160 you get access to all of our episodes add free. 8 00:00:19.640 --> 00:00:21.679 That's the big bonus for that. I mean, we also 9 00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:26.239 do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers, but this 10 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:28.960 is the biggest and best way that you can support 11 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:33.679 the Teamhouse channel and podcast if you'd like to, and 12 00:00:33.799 --> 00:00:36.200 we really appreciate that, So go and check us out 13 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:39.640 at patreon dot com, Slash The Teamhouse. 14 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:55.039 Special Operations, Cobert Osspiona, The Teamhouse with Your Hopes, Jack 15 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:57.520 Murphy and David Bark. 16 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:05.400 Hey, everyone, this is episode three hundred and seven of 17 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:08.200 The Teamhouse. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park and 18 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:12.599 our guest on tonight's show is Jack Barsky. He served 19 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:17.040 as an illegal undercover KGB agent in the United States, 20 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:21.920 originally from East Germany, now an American citizen, and he 21 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.040 is the author of deep Cover, his memoir that I 22 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:26.560 hope you guys will go and check out. 23 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:28.920 We're going to get to Jack in one second. 24 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:31.280 I just want to tell you guys about the sponsor 25 00:01:31.319 --> 00:01:34.760 of tonight's show, which is Fabric Life Insurance. So I 26 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:37.920 have life insurance. I don't tell my daughter how much 27 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:39.799 it is because I don't want to get knocked off, 28 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:43.640 but I carry life insurance and you may want to 29 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:46.159 as well. 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And the second thing I want to tell 59 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.159 you guys about is my book We Defy the Lost 60 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:28.800 Chapters of Special Forces History, coming out December ninth, and 61 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:32.120 I will be doing an event in conjunction with Triple 62 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:34.960 at Design, the clothing company that makes this shirt and 63 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:36.879 a lot of this stuff you see me wearing on here. 64 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:41.360 The event is going to be in Hackensack, ninety two 65 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:46.280 Kennedy Street on November ninth. Start time is at eleven am. 66 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:48.919 I hope to see many of you guys there. I'll 67 00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.240 be talking about the contents of the book, some really 68 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:53.879 cool stuff, So I hope to see many of you there. 69 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:58.560 So Jack back to you. Thank you for joining us tonight. 70 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:03.400 Well telling you something. Three hundred episodes and I poked 71 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.280 a little bit a bit around it what's available on YouTube. 72 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:09.039 I'm very honored that you actually invited me. This is 73 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.280 I think. I think it's going to be good. But 74 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:14.560 based on what I know about you and uh So, 75 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:17.480 I think we're going to get along fabulously. 76 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:19.639 And I should point out that this is a very 77 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.040 unique opportunity for us, that we very rarely have these 78 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:26.399 opportunities to talk to somebody who came from the other side, 79 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.680 so to speak. So that that's a very rare opportunity, 80 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.399 and you know, we plan to take full advantage of it. 81 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:35.959 We appreciate it. Yeah, we're coming. 82 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:40.639 Here Friday night with us. Yeah, well, you know, so 83 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.959 to speak. No, I did come from the other side. 84 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:48.240 I came here to help destroy the country and bring 85 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:55.920 communism uh into into world domination and then somehow, uh 86 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.439 you know, the country, the United States has destroyed my communist. 87 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:09.040 U s a U s ah. Well let's let's let's 88 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:12.160 start at the beginning. Jack, your birth name is not 89 00:05:12.439 --> 00:05:15.639 Jack Barski. Tell us by how you were born, what 90 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:17.160 your name was, where you grew up. 91 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.600 Yeah, my name is I hate to say this in 92 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:25.959 front of Americans because you guys can't pronounce it. By 93 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:32.000 the way, my daughter, the older daughter, didn't like you 94 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:34.560 know that that I'm operating under a stolen name, so 95 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:38.399 she changed her last name to my German last name, 96 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:44.160 which is Dittrich, and she can't say it. I was 97 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:51.439 I was born as Dittrich. I never liked that name. So, uh, 98 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:56.160 you know, Jack is okay. Barski is a little odd 99 00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:00.639 because in the cage there's there's some Jewish blood in there. 100 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:06.360 And actually Jack Barski, who whose identity restole, was born 101 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:10.519 to Jewish parents. Ye know, the father most likely was 102 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.639 an Orthodox Jew because his first name was Elisha Lee. 103 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:20.199 So was Jack Barski actually a name an identity that 104 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:23.600 was given to you by as an alias. 105 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:27.600 Not an alias? You know, I became I became a 106 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:30.720 Jack Barski. So so this is how this happened. And 107 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:34.759 That speaks to the phenomenal security hole that the United 108 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:39.639 States had at the time. That's, by the way, that 109 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:46.160 is how even the Russian intelligence operates today, stealing identities. 110 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:48.959 It's not as easy as it used to be. But 111 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:51.360 if this is what they do, they wander around in 112 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:56.879 cemeteries and look for tombstones of somebody who passed away 113 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:00.839 at a young age. Jack bart He passed away in 114 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:05.240 nineteen forty four at the age of eleven, and some 115 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:10.199 diplomat who operated out of Washington, d C. Found Barski's 116 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:18.120 gravestone in a Jewish cemetery and somehow, and they never 117 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.040 told me the mechanics, but I was just told the steps. 118 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:27.399 He was able to acquire Barski's death certificate, and then somehow, 119 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:31.519 just by paying by asking for it, writing, writing and 120 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:34.279 writing out, filling out the form and paying the fee, 121 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:39.000 got a bona fide copy of Jack Barski's birth certificate. Now, 122 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:42.360 mind you, that was a that was a diplomat, a 123 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.240 Russian diplomat. He spoke with an accent. So how in 124 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:51.920 the world was what did nobody was nobody educated that 125 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:55.959 you know, Hanging out these birth certificates to perfect strangers 126 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:57.680 from another country is not a good idea. 127 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:00.800 Yeah, well, to back up a little bit, check tell 128 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:03.680 us about growing up in East Germany and how you 129 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:04.399 got recruited. 130 00:08:06.120 --> 00:08:10.000 All right, So I was born in nineteen forty nine, 131 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.279 and that was four years after the end of World 132 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:17.480 War Two, and I was born in the Furthest in 133 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:22.399 the furthest eastern section of all of Germany, which brought 134 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:27.079 us both on Poland and on Czechoslovakia, the Czech Republic 135 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:32.360 now born, thank god. Well, I was born and raised. 136 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:37.039 It was the countryside because these cities, the big cities 137 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:42.720 were destroyed, were full of rubble. There was no living space. 138 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:46.399 I mean, people just really really had a hard time 139 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.240 making ends meat. There was no food at least I 140 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:54.600 always had a roof over my head because the village 141 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:56.440 that I grew up in was a small town that 142 00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:00.399 I lived there after the village, they were not destroyed 143 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:04.919 at all. The Russian army just went through there and 144 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:07.399 and there were peasants around, so there was always we 145 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:12.000 could always eat, get potatoes to eat. I mean, I 146 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:16.440 can't remember having been hungry, but we were malnourished. I 147 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.759 got a picture of myself when I was eleven years old. 148 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:21.279 I was thin as a rail. I also was my 149 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:25.600 internal organs didn't grow, they didn't keep up with my 150 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:29.720 my vertical growth. I was not allowed to play soccer 151 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:33.320 for a while because my heart was weak. And the 152 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.759 medical system was horrendous. You know. We I was always sick. 153 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:40.840 You know, every month, every other month, I came down 154 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:45.080 with something, and there there was no medication as a result, 155 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:52.000 you know, this untreated strep throat. Eventually, the bacteria that 156 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:56.559 do this to your throat, they settle on your heart 157 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:59.919 valve and eventually, many many years later, that heartwell had 158 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.600 to be replaced. So it was no fun. And and the doctor, 159 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:08.919 I mean deep, this was tough love. The doctor hurt 160 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:12.200 me three times as a child, very badly. One times 161 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:15.799 when when once when he pierced my ear drum without 162 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:21.120 telling me what's going to come. Secondly when uh he 163 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:26.120 pulled my foreskin back, which that hurt like hell. And 164 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:29.440 the third one was when I had a wound in 165 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:33.120 my left foot, in the soul of my left foot. 166 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:35.919 It was pretty deep. I had stepped into some some 167 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:40.840 glass and he had this fat nurse sit on me 168 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:44.279 so so that I couldn't move, and then he quaterized 169 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:49.559 that wound with silver nitrate. You know how much that hurt? 170 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.559 And then he told me walk home. That was that's 171 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:57.840 I'm speaking of, telling me to walk when I came 172 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:04.000 down with h appendicitis, which can be very painful, and 173 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:07.639 mine was so I couldn't. I couldn't, I wasn't home 174 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.759 and I couldn't stand straight anymore. And so my mother said, well, 175 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.080 this doesn't look so good. You go to the doctor. 176 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:17.600 So actually I had to walk to the bus stop, 177 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:22.440 take the bus, and and and then uh, check myself 178 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.320 into the hospital. This this was normal, and there wasn't 179 00:11:26.879 --> 00:11:30.120 Nobody thought that this was you know, child abuse. It was. 180 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.960 It was pretty bad. But here's the thing. It also 181 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.440 toughened me up and prepared me for what I what 182 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:39.960 I did, uh when I when I did it? So 183 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.440 to speak, So, uh, you know you you went very 184 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:46.799 far into the future from that point on. Do you 185 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:48.519 want me to talk about recruitment. 186 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:51.120 Yeah, tell us a little bit about recruitment. And as 187 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:52.559 you're getting older. 188 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:55.120 Ish, you know, you're becoming a young man, did you 189 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.480 have any sort of like political leanings at that time? 190 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:00.200 And I'm just kind of curious about why they they 191 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:01.039 reached out to you. 192 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:07.039 Yes, I was a very good student when I started, 193 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.000 you know, in elementary and middle school, I didn't study. 194 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.759 I just did the homework and I ran about it 195 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:18.519 B plus a minus average. But when when it really 196 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.600 counted in high school, I studied and I aced everything. 197 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:28.720 I graduated first in class. And and that's at the 198 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.200 age of eighteen. I graduated, and I went to a 199 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:38.159 top college and I graduated as valedictorian there. But here's 200 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:44.039 the thing, and we were taught art, science the curriculum, 201 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.399 and I have the curriculum of my my my last 202 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:51.720 year in high school, half of it was math and 203 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:56.600 science and there were no electives. So that was that 204 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:58.720 was a pretty good part of the education. But with 205 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:04.200 regard to history, with regard to literature, with regard to 206 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:12.960 what's that called the Civics, it was nothing but brainwashing 207 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.840 from A to Z. I mean, there was only one 208 00:13:16.639 --> 00:13:21.240 one opinion allowed. It was only Marxism Leninism that was taught. 209 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:27.159 We we didn't even have an academic subject that would 210 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:31.159 would have said something like the religions of the world. 211 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:37.559 They generically they hammered Christianity, like you know that Marx 212 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.360 called it the opium for the people. And I grew 213 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.320 up knowing that Christians were all dumb people who used 214 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:50.759 religion as a crutch. And if there were Christians, I 215 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:53.960 didn't get to know them because they sort of didn't 216 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:57.200 admit that there were Christians. Very rare. My mother once 217 00:13:57.279 --> 00:13:59.919 told me that she had to resign from she she 218 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:02.799 grew up in a Christian household. I know this for 219 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:06.240 a fact. Her parents have had three girls and they 220 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:11.600 were named Eva, Rude and uh and Judith uh so. 221 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:15.759 And then she told me that she u just after 222 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.440 the Wars, she she joined the local church and she 223 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:21.320 sang in the choir and she had to resign from 224 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.320 the choir because my father was a party member and 225 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:28.039 he wanted to have a career. Yeah. So interesting, Yeah 226 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:32.919 and so so I I never got to know Christianity whatsoever, 227 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.960 not at all. And I, you know, my I just 228 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:42.399 knew that Marx Marxism was a science Marxism Leninism because 229 00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:47.639 we we we took a course in college was called 230 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:52.840 scientific Marxism Leninism where we were taught at Marx and 231 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:59.360 Angels particularly had discovered the natural laws that governed the 232 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.960 the evolution the human of of the of the human race. 233 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.919 Starting with uh, you know, hunters and gatherers and the 234 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:11.879 Stone Age going on to the you know, the the empires, 235 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:17.759 the Greek and the Roman empires, and feudalism, capitalism, socialism, communism. 236 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.919 So that was a law if you, if you, if 237 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:28.960 there's no contrary opinion available, and you believe in that stuff. 238 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:32.799 And it was really well done from a from a 239 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:37.080 delivery perspective. It because it started in kindergarten and and 240 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:42.279 even though the little puppet on the TV were somewhat ideological, 241 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.440 uh and and so the brain was started very early, 242 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:52.879 and that that holds extremely well. I had another thought 243 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:59.919 that I just see, oh yeah, and since I believe 244 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.960 than this, and since I wanted to my father had 245 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:05.840 a good career, I wanted to have a good career. 246 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:10.360 In my first year of college, because I wasn't outstanding student, 247 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.440 I was recruited by by one of the party members 248 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:19.159 of the section chemistry, and I was flattered and I 249 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.679 joined the party. And then I was also recruited to 250 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.720 become a leader in the youth movement. Initially I was 251 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.480 just leading a small group. Then I was leading uh 252 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:36.000 the entire uh, the entire class of UH. When when 253 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:40.200 whenever my class, which was about sixty people. Then I 254 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:46.159 was promoted to leading the all the the is. The 255 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:51.039 folks were called young. The organization was called Young Young 256 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:55.639 Communist Youth, the entire Communist youth group of the Section Chemistry, 257 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.759 which which was several hundred people. So and I thought 258 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.320 I was known to be a very effective communist. I 259 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:08.960 was an intellectual communist. I wasn't one of those stupid ones. Okay. 260 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.079 So so I did some things that you shouldn't do, 261 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:14.599 that you weren't really allowed to do. I gave you 262 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:19.160 one example. You know, like everybody else, I I loved 263 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:21.480 rock and roll, you know, started with Elvis and then 264 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.960 went on with the Beatles. I taught myself guitar and 265 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:29.640 in high school, and I listened to Western radio stations, 266 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.880 which that that was a no no. Now. One time 267 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:37.640 I was caught at the dorm that had very thin walls. 268 00:17:39.160 --> 00:17:42.440 I was listening to some Western music and my neighbor 269 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:47.720 was one of those dumb communists. He denounced me, and 270 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.160 I listened to this list. The party secretary of the 271 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:55.240 Sex of the Section Chemistry called me into his office 272 00:17:55.839 --> 00:18:00.480 and he said close the door, and then he said, 273 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:06.200 next time you turned the volume down. You know, what 274 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:06.759 that meant. 275 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.519 Yeah, see no evil, Yeah Jack exactly. 276 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.400 You know, and this is the same guy when he 277 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.480 and a colleague, both party members, had a business trip. Occasionally, 278 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:21.240 those trips were allowed if you were at the right 279 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:26.000 level and if you were a Communist Party member to London, England. 280 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:29.359 And the first thing that they shared with everybody was 281 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:34.079 that they attended a Rolling Stones concert. But there was 282 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:40.000 some hypocrisy involved, but we all pretty much believed in 283 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:43.960 the cause. When I signed up, I was a flaming Communist. 284 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:49.759 I always thought, you know, our leadership, like at the 285 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:54.599 very top wasn't very good and like my like these 286 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:56.640 guys that I was just telling you about, the more 287 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:01.240 intelligent people also were hoping for a a more intelligent 288 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.079 leader because we had two leaders that you know, they 289 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:08.000 couldn't talk. They may have been clever, but they weren't 290 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.799 highly educated and they weren't really smart. But it doesn't matter. 291 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:13.160 The cause was still the cause. 292 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:18.799 Was there a culture of like purity test and snitching 293 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.119 on somebody for not doing the right thing? 294 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.240 Was that sort of ingrained in the culture. 295 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:33.799 And I know this in hindsight, I was not aware 296 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:38.000 that I snitched on nobody. I wasn't asked to snitch. 297 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.759 These were different types of people that were running around 298 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:47.359 and just watching the population, and typically they were not 299 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.440 very likable. There's one guy in high school that I 300 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.920 absolutely hated and I beat him up once because you know, 301 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:58.079 he just misbehaved and he attacked me, so I beat 302 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:03.480 him up. So so, uh, I just hated him. And 303 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.680 he was one of those guys who volunteered and no, 304 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:10.359 actually he became uh an employee of the Starzi, and 305 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:16.119 he just spied on internally. You know, I lived in 306 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:20.599 a bubble where people just didn't do that because the again, 307 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:24.839 you know, the Starzi used the more intelligent people to 308 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:29.160 do intelligence work, all right, and and the intelligence, the 309 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.319 intelligence work that that they did in West Germany was outstanding. 310 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.839 I mean they had they had several hundred Starzi agents 311 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.400 in the West German government. Marcus Wolff, as you you 312 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:47.039 probably heard his name, the man without a face. He 313 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:51.039 he became legend. But he had an easy job. You know, 314 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.599 you know, you take East Germany, can move him to 315 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.920 West Germany. There's no cultural difference, no language difference, so 316 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:01.480 it's much easier to to infiltrate that West Germany. Then 317 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:04.039 it was to infiltrate for the Russians to infiltrate the 318 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.920 United States. So I'm going to stop talking now. 319 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:10.119 Tell us about how the KGV approached you. 320 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:15.160 Yeah, so, first of all, and this is an educated guess, 321 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.480 but I think in hindsight, I know this is how 322 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:24.119 this transpired because I know how they were looking for 323 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:30.240 people to operate as illegals. And I don't have to 324 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:32.240 explain to you what illegals are, but I may want 325 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:36.799 to explain that to the audience. So there are three 326 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:40.200 types of agents there are. The first type is the 327 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.400 safest job that you can have. You operate under diplomatic cover, 328 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:48.759 and if you're caught, you're expelled from the country. That's 329 00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:51.400 all you get. You can't be arrested. You on the 330 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:58.200 diplomatic immunity. The second one is called non official cover. 331 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:02.599 There's people that use their own names and they used 332 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:05.599 their whatever they do as cover. They could be businessmen, 333 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:10.599 or they could be artists or exchange students, whatever. They 334 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:16.400 are at risk of being caught and imprisoned, but they 335 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.440 don't have to pretend to be somebody else. The pretension 336 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.920 of being somebody else requires a certain set of character 337 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:29.440 traits and I know, and I found that out after 338 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:34.440 when I chanced upon interviews that were given by two 339 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:39.720 different X heads of the director at s That was 340 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:43.759 the illegals directory. So the third type is the illegals. 341 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.079 And they actually in the interview, both of them said 342 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:53.039 that they were combing through thousands of records to find 343 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:58.559 people that a were ideologically sound and then approached them 344 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.119 and then they were looking what they tested me for 345 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:04.759 eighteen months after after they said hello to see if 346 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.039 I fit the profile that they were looking for. I 347 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:12.279 give you some some tidbits out of that profile. Very 348 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:19.839 quick decision maker, never having a problem with change, changing circumstances, fearlessness, 349 00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:26.759 uh no, no problem with being alone lonely, and my 350 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:35.000 favorite is a tendency to to force for well controlled adventure. 351 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:40.640 And so after eighteen first this is how they introduced themselves, 352 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:44.960 and I'm pretty sure they found me. And at the time, 353 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:49.519 in my the di Stazi kept records of a lot 354 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:56.359 of citizens and particularly the ones that eventually would you 355 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.759 know with students and would you know have position at 356 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:06.880 a higher level in the country, and my file said 357 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:10.240 he has nothing but age. I had at the time 358 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:16.359 received the second no, the highest scholarship in East Germany. 359 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.480 There were two other students out of twenty thousand at 360 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.039 that university who had that. I got it, and I 361 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:26.759 was a youth leader. I was a Communist, so they 362 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.359 had to talk to me, right. So, and one day 363 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:32.759 I got a knock on the door on a Saturday. 364 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:36.400 By the way, you know, in hindsight, I pieced all 365 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.000 these things together. So our dorm rooms didn't have names 366 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.359 on them. And how did the and I had a roommate, 367 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:47.720 how did the guy who knocked on the door know 368 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.640 that I was there by myself and I was behind 369 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.799 that door. Well, in hindsight, we had a neighbor who 370 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:02.559 was a Russian who studied at our university. He must 371 00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:06.920 have been KGB, right, so you know, I didn't have 372 00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:11.079 a clue. So it comes a German guy and he uh, 373 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:15.559 he was. I mean, he was the the the biggest 374 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:19.400 idiot that I have met amongst KTB folks. He was 375 00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:23.480 not a KGB employee. He was a collaborator and they 376 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:26.359 sent to German. I don't know why yet that makes 377 00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:31.319 a lot of sense, but but he came came at 378 00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:33.920 me first. He asked me, are you always did I 379 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:37.920 said yes? He said, okay, I'm from card Size. He 380 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:40.599 know that is A was a factory and still is 381 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:45.000 a very well known optics company that that even then 382 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.839 made outstanding products that could be sold to the West. 383 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.160 So this would have been a place where a graduate 384 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:57.279 might find game call of employment. And he pretended to 385 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:02.119 sort of recruit me, you know, for the future. And 386 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:04.960 that the reason that I'm saying he was an idiot, 387 00:26:05.720 --> 00:26:07.559 and I can give you give that to you in writing. 388 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:10.920 He didn't know how our own country worked. The companies 389 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:15.599 did not recruit. You were either a sign or you 390 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:18.119 had the chance, if you were near the top ten percent, 391 00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:21.720 to stay at the university to get a doctorate and 392 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.240 maybe you know, get a get a career as a 393 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.799 you know, with a doctorate at university teaching. So so 394 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.880 that that was such a stupid lie. Immediately I knew, 395 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:36.400 I thought, oh he's he's Starzy. It didn't bother me 396 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:39.519 at all because I had no reason to be afraid 397 00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:43.720 of Starzi. You know, I wasn't excellent standing. So so 398 00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:48.960 I guess again that he probably was trying to recruit 399 00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.960 for the Starzi. And if it if it wasn't if 400 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:57.079 it had been about you know, watching other Easterman citizens. 401 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:01.640 I would have set flat out no, but I expected, 402 00:27:01.880 --> 00:27:04.119 you know, this would be interesting. So you know, I 403 00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:06.160 talked with him, and I talked with him a little 404 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.359 small talk, and eventually. 405 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.240 He changed his too, and he said, you know, I 406 00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:13.319 got to confess. I got to confess something here. I'm 407 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:16.519 not really from cut size, you know, I'm from the government. 408 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:20.759 So another stupid thing. I mean, he set himself up 409 00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:23.799 for me to ask what part of the government. 410 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.400 But you know, I played along. I just wanted to 411 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:30.599 find out what's going on. And so he asked this 412 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.440 one question. He said, can you imagine it one day 413 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:40.440 to work for the government, And I said, yeah, but 414 00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:44.319 not as a chemist. So he had answered to the 415 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.359 question that he didn't dare ask, right, that's exactly what 416 00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:53.519 he wanted. So he invited me for luncheon, which, as 417 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:56.519 you know in Germany is the big meal at the 418 00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:59.759 most expensive restaurant in town. A few days later, and 419 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.720 as I show up there there's another man sitting at 420 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.519 the table, and I was a little bit hesitant. But 421 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:09.720 this guy, who by the way, never introduced himself by 422 00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:12.440 any kind of name, not even a cover name, he 423 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:14.440 gets up and he says well, come on, come on 424 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:18.160 over here. I want to introduce you to Herman. We're 425 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:21.680 working with our Soviet comrades. And then he excused himself 426 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:24.480 and said, you know, I gotta go so here. I'm 427 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:28.440 with Herman, you know. And I knew that Herman was 428 00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:32.400 KGB obviously because he spoke with an accent. He wasn't Herman, 429 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.759 he was actually and he got pissed off, and I 430 00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:38.960 asked him, once, is your real name, Geraman? That's the 431 00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:43.599 Russian version of Herman. He got very annoyed because we 432 00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:50.240 did not when we interacted, we used cover names and 433 00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:53.839 in very few names, very few people knew my real name. 434 00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:59.519 I am one hundred percent certain that when when I 435 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.519 started working with the KGB, I became a state secret 436 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:08.960 of the Soviet Union. Because illegals, as as I already indicated, 437 00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:12.400 were very hard to find, those types of people that 438 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:16.640 fit the bill. They were also hard to recruit because 439 00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.160 not everybody was stupid enough for me to take on 440 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:24.000 something that was with a pretty much but have me 441 00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:27.640 wind up in jail right and then then very difficult 442 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:30.839 to expensive to train because all the training was one 443 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:35.640 on one and expensive to maintain. So so you don't 444 00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:39.519 you don't want to put these individuals at risk. So 445 00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:42.960 I guarantee you the person who made decisions on my 446 00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:46.319 behalf in Moscow Center did not know my name. He 447 00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.279 didn't have to know it, so he couldn't give me away. 448 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:51.279 You know, he knows you know, my you know, my 449 00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:55.920 coment name, and that was Deta. So Herman was Herman. Okay, 450 00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:59.319 but whatever, you know, I didn't I didn't really care 451 00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:01.519 about all of this, you know, I just I just 452 00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:03.440 wanted to do a good job, and I played along. 453 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:06.799 You know. It was like I didn't even think it 454 00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.000 seriously that one day I'm actually going to be recruited. 455 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:15.160 I was just like, you know, meeting with Herman every 456 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:20.200 other week, and he became it like your father figured 457 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:23.640 to me. My father had left the family and he 458 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.480 was about ten years older. So we had nice talks 459 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.440 about everything in life. I shared everything with him. He 460 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:36.480 gave me some tasks that our work close to what 461 00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:41.079 people in intelligence do, such as knocking on a door 462 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:44.480 and introducing yourself onto some kind of a pretext and 463 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:47.599 then having a conversation and finding something out about a 464 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:52.240 relative in the West. I hated that, but I did it, 465 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.160 and you know, we had some you know, we did 466 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.680 a little bit of you know, clandestine meetings, exercises and 467 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.440 stuff like that, but not a whole lot. And so 468 00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:08.079 this is when the recruitment happened. It was eighty Oh. 469 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:12.799 The one thing I think that impressed them tremendously and 470 00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:19.079 this we're talking about, you know, the the tendency to 471 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:23.799 be adventurous. In my junior year in college, my friend 472 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:27.640 and I hitch height all the way from East Germany 473 00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:33.559 through Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria to the Black Seat. Wow. 474 00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:37.319 Very few East Termans did that because you know, we 475 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:39.839 had to go through countries where you didn't speak the 476 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:44.359 language you had. You only had limited money available for 477 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.680 each and limited time in the countries that you passed through. 478 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:53.680 And you all we had was maps and you know, 479 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:57.680 a train that took us from East Germany to to Czechoslovakia. 480 00:31:57.759 --> 00:31:59.799 And then it was just waving and see hope, hoping 481 00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:04.079 that you know, somebody would take you someplace where there 482 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:07.160 is a structure where you can sleep. We slept in 483 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:12.400 the fields several times. And and when when I told 484 00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:16.400 him that, I think he liked this a lot, right right, 485 00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:20.759 that was just like, never mind, you know he can 486 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:23.880 do the shit, he can find his way and and 487 00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.640 you know, my first trip from Moscow to New York 488 00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:31.160 actually confirmed that they picked the right guy, because that 489 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:35.279 trip was even harder. But anyway, let me. 490 00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:37.880 Let me toss it over to day for a minute 491 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:41.000 to do this ad read and then we'll get right back. 492 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:42.519 Yeah, we just want to say thanks to our second 493 00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:43.559 sponsor of the evening. 494 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:46.279 And look, you don't have to be a sleeper agent 495 00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:47.640 to enjoy a good night to sleep. 496 00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:47.839 Right. 497 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:51.240 If you get a little hot when you're undercover, ghost 498 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:53.240 Bed can help, as. 499 00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:54.799 The makers are the coolest beds in the world. 500 00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.920 Ghost Bed is your go to for cooling mattresses, cooling clothes, 501 00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:01.119 and even cooling betting. 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You too 524 00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:10.360 can can be a sleeper. 525 00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:12.559 Eat so Jack. 526 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.280 One thing I mean, I want to I want to 527 00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:17.159 talk a little bit about your training and then that 528 00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:19.320 first trip to New York. But one thing to just 529 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.760 kind of maybe shape that conversation a little bit. I 530 00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:26.000 think it's fascinating that they built your cover out of 531 00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:29.480 whole cloth, that this is this is my American mind 532 00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:32.519 thinking if I'm in director at s I'm gonna look 533 00:34:32.519 --> 00:34:35.719 for somebody who's a dual citizen, somebody who has one 534 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:40.440 American parent, somebody who already speaks fluent English. You know, 535 00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:43.239 those are the types of attributes I would be looking for, 536 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:45.440 you know, somebody who has a foot in the door already. 537 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:46.719 But they really. 538 00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:50.920 Found it, founded German and grew an American out of 539 00:34:50.920 --> 00:34:51.960 you from the ground up. 540 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.559 Yeah, I'm going to chime in with this, but I 541 00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.599 got to tell you how I was recruited. Yeah, that 542 00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:05.039 that after eighteen months h Herman decided that he already 543 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:08.159 I guarantee you, he reported his findings back to Berlin, 544 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:12.360 where the headquarters were for the KGB in in East Germany. 545 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:16.639 So and they decided to invite me to Berlin under 546 00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:20.800 the pretext that I needed to get some more training. 547 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:22.679 So I was there for three weeks and I got 548 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:27.239 some some better training than than I got in in 549 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.800 the university town where I lived. And on the next 550 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:34.880 to last day of that visit to Berlin, I was 551 00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:41.599 taken to headquarters, and I guarantee you the person who 552 00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:44.719 talked to me was the head of the KGB and 553 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:49.159 in East Germany. Because that his office was phenomenal, I mean, 554 00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:53.880 it was very rich, expensive furniture and like decorated very nicely. 555 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:57.239 And when he started, he spoke only Russian, and I 556 00:35:57.320 --> 00:35:59.480 understood some of it and some of it was translated. 557 00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:03.599 It was a bunch of BS small talk, and and 558 00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:08.960 without warning he asked the question, so what are you 559 00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.519 in or not? I was not prepared for that. Okay, 560 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:15.719 this is another one of you know, when they were 561 00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:20.639 talking about making decisions rather quickly, so I stoleed and 562 00:36:20.719 --> 00:36:23.119 I think that was maybe it was okay. I said, well, 563 00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:26.559 I don't I can't make a decision. I don't know 564 00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.519 if I'm qualified, and I don't have any training yet. 565 00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:33.119 And he said, don't worry about it. We're going to 566 00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:37.159 train you and we know that you're qualified, so I 567 00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:40.760 expect your answer by tomorrow noon. You know, that makes 568 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:45.239 for a sleepless night, speaking of sleeping, you know, because 569 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:48.719 now I now I was faced with reality that I 570 00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:52.920 had never really considered. So, you know, I knew that 571 00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:56.239 I had a phenomenal career ahead of me. I was 572 00:36:56.239 --> 00:36:59.440 was on path to become a tenured professor, like a 573 00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:02.719 member of the quote unquote ruling class, or maybe joined 574 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:09.320 the government, so you know, the legit government, not not espionage, 575 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:13.000 and and then here was the adventure and the flattery 576 00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:17.400 that the mighty kg Me was after me, my god, 577 00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:23.320 and and and what what really moved the needle? It 578 00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:26.719 was very close. But what moved because the other thing 579 00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:30.760 that that helped me back in the East Germany was 580 00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:34.800 my basketball team. I was I was, I mean, I 581 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:38.119 was married to my basketball Bowl team. I didn't have 582 00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:41.519 a steady girlfriend at the time. Basketball was was my 583 00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:45.280 life was more important than anything else. So but what 584 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:47.719 moved the needle was I was going to be able 585 00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:52.480 to to move to to travel to the West, you 586 00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:56.440 know uh and you know, visit countries that otherwise were 587 00:37:56.440 --> 00:38:00.840 not accessible, and to have the good life of an 588 00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:05.639 Easterman James Bond, because we had our own James Bond, 589 00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:08.840 and that guy was hunting down Nazis, but he had 590 00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:10.920 the good life. He had the fancy cars, they lived 591 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.079 in nice homes, and he had several girlfriends in a row. 592 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.400 So so what is that? H is it? 593 00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:19.159 Seventeen Moments in Spring? 594 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:27.599 No? No, this is the the Invisible Advisor in translations. Okay, 595 00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:31.519 it was a series with an actor. The only East 596 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:33.920 German actor who made it in Hollywood is by the 597 00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:38.079 name of Army and Miller style. He's still alive, he's 598 00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:39.760 in his life late eighties. 599 00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:40.360 Fascinating. 600 00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.760 Yeah, I never met him, but yet this is what 601 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:48.280 I knew about They didn't, you know. They actually sort 602 00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:52.000 of hinted at the start when when they were telling me, well, 603 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:53.679 you got to think big, you got to think you know, 604 00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:55.760 you're going to be in big you know, a big car. 605 00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:00.440 And none of this, None of this happened until after 606 00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:06.239 I quit the KGB and had a career in corporate right, 607 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.320 That's that's when it happened. I mean, there was a 608 00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:11.800 there was a lot of sacrifice that I did for 609 00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:15.119 the cause. But anyway, so I had to share that 610 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:20.679 with you because there's there's so many ironic aspects to 611 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:24.679 my life. But he says, my god, this is ridiculous. 612 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:28.159 And the irony also is that as a sleeper, I'm 613 00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:30.079 not I'm not sleeping very well these days. 614 00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:32.280 So ghost that as your solution. 615 00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:35.480 Now, tell us about the training and the building of 616 00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:38.000 your cover to get you prepared for this mission. 617 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:42.320 Yeah, okay, Now, first I was I was trained to 618 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:47.159 to be deployed in West Germany. But as part of 619 00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:51.400 the training, uh, they told me to pick a language, 620 00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:55.039 learn another foreign language. So I picked English because I 621 00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:58.559 English was really easy for me in high school and 622 00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:05.840 in college. And so I got a tutor and I 623 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:09.840 started studying English from scratch. Studying English from scratch, and 624 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.320 I as when I want to do something, I do 625 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.559 it one hundred and ten. So I threw as much 626 00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:23.639 into the studying of English as I could. I started 627 00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:28.679 reading materials, initially just newspapers. Every word that I didn't know, 628 00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:34.280 I wrote down and learned every single word. I read novels. 629 00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:41.800 Eventually I raced through the high school program in about 630 00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:45.480 a month, and then I got myself another tutor with 631 00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:50.639 whom I had conversations. And then after a year of training, 632 00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:57.079 I had a visitor from Moscow and we were meeting 633 00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:01.880 in my apartment and he asked, like just one of 634 00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:03.840 the things, he asked, so, how's your English going? And 635 00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:06.440 I said, I pulled a book out of my shelf, 636 00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:08.480 and I said, I can read that without a dictionary. 637 00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:14.880 He's a hat. So a week later, I my my 638 00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:21.280 my handle in Berlin gave me a The German word 639 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:24.039 popped into my head and that usually very often blocks 640 00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:29.159 my English. A recorder, a tape recorder, and they told 641 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:33.559 me just tape something, say something. Well, there's one thing 642 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:39.519 I knew. I was pretty damn good speaking with less 643 00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:42.280 of an at speaking with less of an accent, and 644 00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:44.920 all the other people that were learning English, you know, 645 00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:50.360 my contemporaries I had. I have a talent to imitate languages. 646 00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:53.599 I can also do a very pretty good English an 647 00:41:53.719 --> 00:42:00.480 Indian accent. You know, so sorry the comedian and mean, no, 648 00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:07.280 that's great. But anyway, So and a week later I 649 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:12.079 was on a plane to Moscow because somebody had this idea, Man, 650 00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:17.920 perhaps this guy can be trained to learn English so 651 00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:20.920 well that we could put him into the United States 652 00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:25.079 as a born American. You know why this is so 653 00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:30.400 so inviting. It's because if I'm born in the United States, 654 00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:34.239 there's no red flag associated with my existence. There's no 655 00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:38.920 other nationality involved. I didn't come through another country. I 656 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:42.440 was just like, hey was born in New Jersey, right. 657 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:48.119 So they had this dream. And so when I when 658 00:42:48.159 --> 00:42:51.800 I appeared in Moscow, they had me talk with two 659 00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:58.480 English speaking individuals. One was a Russian English teacher that 660 00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:03.599 was a cover story. She she taught English at Moscow University, 661 00:43:03.639 --> 00:43:07.760 but she was KGB and then a born American a 662 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:12.000 woman who had married a KGB agent and emigrated. That 663 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:14.800 poor thing made a real bad decisions because of decision 664 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.719 because I worked with over two years. She was as 665 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:22.719 miserable as can be. But so and then when when 666 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:27.519 the women were done talking, they gave feedback to the 667 00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:32.559 decision makers, and the American said, I can work with him. 668 00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:35.880 I think he can do it. The Russian was a 669 00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:39.920 little bit concerned, but you know, wishful thinking took over. 670 00:43:40.599 --> 00:43:44.159 And that's how I wound up in Moscow working on 671 00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:47.880 my primarily working on my English, but also being taught 672 00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:52.559 phenomenal trade craft the Berlin. The Berlin teaching wasn't that good. 673 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:56.400 I was trained in Moscow. I was trained one on one. 674 00:43:56.880 --> 00:44:03.519 And what also happened in addition to interacting, you know, 675 00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:11.159 with my tutor, my the American woman once twice every week, 676 00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:17.920 I also UH had the opportunity for about six months 677 00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:23.400 to work with a fellow whose name you may know, 678 00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:32.800 Marris Cohen. Mars Cohen was a member of the rosenbergspiring him, 679 00:44:33.480 --> 00:44:37.079 him and his wife Lana Uh. They managed to not 680 00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:42.000 get caught. They were born Americans, and and so what 681 00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:45.320 was good about this? At this point I could interact 682 00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:49.079 with a male voice and imitate the male voice rather 683 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:53.400 than just a female And and Morris and uh and 684 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:58.599 uh Lana were actually redeployed after they wound up initially 685 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:01.840 in Poland and the Soviet Union, redeployed in the UK, 686 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:07.239 spent some time in jail and were incarcerated. They were 687 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:11.400 caught in the UK, but were exchanged and wound up 688 00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:16.039 living the rest of their life very very highly regarded 689 00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:20.800 and very well kept in Moscow. And they died believing 690 00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:22.000 in communism. 691 00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:23.760 Jack out of curiosity. 692 00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:26.840 And I know that the whole program, like you probably 693 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:33.599 don't have insight because of the compartment compartmentalization. But ever since, 694 00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:37.679 you know, like the seventies or eighties, there's been that media, 695 00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:42.880 the Hollywood idea that Russia trains at sleeper agents by 696 00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:47.519 having them live in small communities, raising kids, learning English 697 00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:52.079 things like that. Was that something that you were aware 698 00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:54.239 of or did it seem more like taking on people 699 00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:56.800 like you who just had a knack for it. 700 00:45:57.480 --> 00:46:00.920 That is total bs okay. And I tell you to 701 00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:07.239 first of all, you don't recruit children. You don't you 702 00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:10.519 don't know what you have, what they what they were after. 703 00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.000 And the CIA is doing the same thing. They were 704 00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:18.960 recruiting primarily in uh in colleges. They were looking for 705 00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:24.119 people mature enough when you know what you're dealing with, 706 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:26.920 what kind of a personality you're dealing with, but not 707 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:32.000 old enough to have ties strong ties back home and 708 00:46:32.119 --> 00:46:35.000 so like like the Americans where they were they were 709 00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:40.360 supposedly recruiting young kids. It doesn't work. Uh and and 710 00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:44.000 I was never aware that there was anything like a 711 00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:47.559 potempting type village where we were learning how to. 712 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:50.960 Uh mow the lawn and out the front watching. 713 00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:59.079 I tell you what I was the illegals, particularly somebody 714 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:02.280 like me who were smuggled in as a born American. 715 00:47:02.679 --> 00:47:05.480 We were the elite of the elite. And my my 716 00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:09.480 liaison once told me how how he envied me, because 717 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.880 you know, they they admired us. We were at the top. 718 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:18.239 I got in two years before I resigned from the KGB. 719 00:47:18.679 --> 00:47:21.360 I got the second highest declaration of the Soviet Union. 720 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:23.920 That will tell you something. You think they would have 721 00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.000 thrown everything that they have in training me, You think, 722 00:47:28.039 --> 00:47:33.480 so right, yeah, nothing? What what the the folks that 723 00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:37.199 trained me with regard to not language language? What good 724 00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:40.480 was good in freight craft was good. Everything else was 725 00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:44.000 was substandard. The folks that tried to tell me what 726 00:47:44.039 --> 00:47:47.800 it was like to live as an American didn't know what. 727 00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:51.599 They didn't know. They they had lived in the United 728 00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:56.079 States as diplomats, and they all lived there in Upstate 729 00:47:56.599 --> 00:48:00.599 and in the northern part of Manhattan, you know where 730 00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:03.360 that is where they had a Soviet compound. And they 731 00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:05.920 when they were done with their day job and maybe 732 00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:08.960 some spying, they went home and lived with their families. 733 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:10.480 They didn't know what it was like to live like 734 00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:14.800 an American, to have a job. Yeah, I mean nothing. 735 00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:17.000 They gave me advice that didn't work right. 736 00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:19.519 So I don't want to I don't want to like 737 00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.079 skip too far ahead in your story, but just in 738 00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:24.760 a general sense, when you did come to the US, 739 00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:27.760 were those cultural gaps of saying you grew up here 740 00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:28.880 but not growing up here? 741 00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:33.039 Did those cause issues for you? Like general cultural references 742 00:48:33.079 --> 00:48:33.840 and things like that. 743 00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:39.119 And I was smart enough to know what I that 744 00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:44.159 I didn't know, So I I and and I tell 745 00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:47.920 you why. And this is one thing that they did 746 00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:50.599 something good. They had me go on a practice trip 747 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:55.679 to Canada for three months with a German identity. So 748 00:48:55.800 --> 00:49:01.440 I mingled with Canadians that we all thought were very 749 00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:04.960 much like Americans. Well yeah, sort of, but not really. 750 00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:10.519 They say a a lot a so anyway, but I 751 00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:14.840 realized that, you know, this, this would this would be 752 00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:19.639 a task that I have to be very careful with. Now. 753 00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:23.679 One thing I did and during that trip, just to 754 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:28.719 check if my language, my ability to speak English with 755 00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:32.519 a sort of an American accent, was working with Canadians. 756 00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:36.360 I was once sitting next to a bar in Windsor, Ontario, 757 00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:40.480 which is right on the other side of Detroit, and 758 00:49:41.159 --> 00:49:45.119 my neighbor was an American, and I spoke with him 759 00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:48.360 about them, the Canadians, as if you know, implicit that 760 00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:51.480 I was an American, and he had no problem with that. 761 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:54.519 I was very proud of that, but I did know 762 00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:57.559 that there were a lot of things I had to 763 00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:02.639 learn by observing so and I got really lucky in 764 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:07.800 one sense because my first job was as a bike 765 00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:14.679 messner in Manhattan, and you know, I spent quite a 766 00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:19.000 bit of time waiting for deliveries in an office and 767 00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:23.760 I was able to just listen to what the other 768 00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:27.679 messenger talked about, how they behaved, watched them. They didn't 769 00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:32.480 care about me these were all transients. But I was 770 00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:35.760 able to absorb, you know, things about you know, who's 771 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:39.239 on the Yankees, Who do we hate you? We hate 772 00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:41.800 the Boston Red Sox and so forth. I watched a 773 00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:46.519 lot of television and I managed. I was very careful 774 00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:51.880 getting very close to individuals, in particular women, because I 775 00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:54.519 was concerned that, you know, because women are more intuitive 776 00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:59.599 and instinctively. I knew this. So my first steady girlfriend 777 00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:04.519 was an alien. She was from South America. With her, 778 00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:06.840 I could be more intimate. She couldn't figure it out. 779 00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:12.360 So it took me about six seven years to know. 780 00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:16.360 But yeah, six seven years to become comfortable. I went 781 00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:19.679 when I after three years of my messenger of work, 782 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:22.440 I went to college in the US and it was 783 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:26.079 in New York City. It was Beru College. In those days, 784 00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:29.400 it was like the United Nations. So I felt really 785 00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:33.559 comfortable interacting with everybody. And when I had my first job, 786 00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:38.280 I felt too comfortable and I get and this is 787 00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:42.559 this is where a Cuban national helped me out. This 788 00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:47.719 is what happened. So one day we were good friends. 789 00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:51.400 He was very smart. We worked together on the same team. 790 00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:55.679 We got along phenomenally well and one day he gave 791 00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:57.480 me some advice. He took me into a room and 792 00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:01.400 he said, hey, Jack, you know, I like you a lot. 793 00:52:01.519 --> 00:52:04.159 You you're a great guy, you're smart, you're good to 794 00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:08.760 work with. But there's one problem. Everybody thinks you're an asshole. 795 00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:17.320 And and and then and I asked him pot really, 796 00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:21.400 and then he told me you were so aggressive, you're 797 00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:27.000 you're so negative, you're rude man. And I realized, my god, 798 00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:29.880 I got to change that. And and then then I 799 00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:34.400 paid attention to how everybody else communicated. And Americans typically, 800 00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:39.519 unless you know their aggressive New Yorkers, maybe, but most 801 00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:47.719 Americans really are not super critical and particularly critical and 802 00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:50.679 saying critical things without being asked for an opinion. Right. 803 00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:55.320 So that's when I when I mellowed and I changed, 804 00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:59.960 and I paid more attention how others, you know, communicate 805 00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:06.039 and interact with one another. And by the time, by 806 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:09.480 the time the FBI caught up with me, which was 807 00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:12.360 at that point maybe like twelve or thirteen years later, 808 00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:18.239 I was very much Americanized. Even though there's still some 809 00:53:18.639 --> 00:53:24.440 residue where I can get very blunt, but I keep 810 00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:26.639 that to a minimum and only when it calends. 811 00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:30.559 Jack, what's you know, you mentioned you were a byte 812 00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:33.280 messenger for a number of years and you went to college. 813 00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:37.360 What is the point of in illegal what is you know, 814 00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:40.440 the sleeper ages, like, what is the point if they 815 00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:41.599 don't have access? 816 00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:43.599 Because that's normally what we think about. 817 00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:47.320 No, yes, good question, and I'm going to answer this. 818 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:53.119 The Plan A was brilliant. Plan A was for me. 819 00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:57.280 You know, first of all, I had to acquire documents 820 00:53:57.280 --> 00:53:59.440 that made me an American. You know, the birth certificate 821 00:53:59.480 --> 00:54:00.920 wasn't good enough. If I had to get a Social 822 00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:05.360 Security card and a driver's license in those days, that 823 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:10.119 wasn't enough. And then Plan A said, so, once you've 824 00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:15.360 got your your your driver's license, your social Security card, 825 00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:17.960 you have a job, you have an apartment with an 826 00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:21.760 address rather than living in a hotel, and you have 827 00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:26.480 you know, you have a real job. Then you apply 828 00:54:26.559 --> 00:54:33.199 for a passport. And the idea was, once you have 829 00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:38.519 that passport, you're gonna emigrate. You You you go as 830 00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:43.519 an American to Switzerland or Austria, and then you start 831 00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:47.960 a company there and then we put money into that company, 832 00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:51.239 and two years later you go back to the United 833 00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:56.079 States and repatriate all that money. And you don't have 834 00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:58.920 to tell anybody how you made that money, you says, 835 00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:01.000 I learn. You know, I was a bookseller or whatever, 836 00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:06.000 or I consulted, and nobody will dig any deeper. So 837 00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:12.440 at that point, immediately you know I could have mingled 838 00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:16.679 with people of interest. That's like maybe join a country 839 00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:24.159 club near the Pentagon fascinating. The plant was brilliant. However, 840 00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:30.880 I made a big mistake. So we we actually practiced, 841 00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:33.159 and I think they made a mistake too, by the way, 842 00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:37.119 but we practiced a fill filling out the form. So 843 00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:39.920 I was very familiar with the application form, and they 844 00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:44.440 told me to apply in person, not by mail. Okay. 845 00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:50.280 So I took the form, and I took the documentation 846 00:55:50.360 --> 00:55:54.079 that I needed. I took it to Rockefeller Center. I 847 00:55:54.119 --> 00:55:58.679 don't know if they still have it, A and the 848 00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:01.360 section of the State Department where you can get a 849 00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:06.000 passport in person. I don't know, m And you know, 850 00:56:06.079 --> 00:56:10.719 I lined up and handed in my documentation and my application, 851 00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:14.199 and the guy behind the counter told me, well, if 852 00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:16.880 you could step aside, I'm just gonna check your stuff 853 00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:22.519 and then I'll call you. When he called me, oh Joe, 854 00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:26.639 Now I tell you what the mistake I made. I 855 00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:31.599 I filled out everything honestly. So when I when I 856 00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:36.000 filled out the what the job you have to your profession, 857 00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:42.760 I wrote messenger. I should have written contractor it didn't 858 00:56:42.760 --> 00:56:45.559 occur to me. I was a messenger. I didn't say 859 00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:49.840 I didn't even ride bike messenger. So that was a 860 00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:54.960 mistake number one. Mistake Number two was there were two 861 00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:59.360 fields that were that were not mandatory. When are you 862 00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:02.599 planning to travel and where you're planning to go? I 863 00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:06.079 left those blank. So I go back to the counter 864 00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:10.719 and the guy says, you know, mister Barski, there are 865 00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:14.880 some doubts about your identity. Would you please fill out 866 00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:20.599 this auxiliary auxiliary questionnaire. He gave me the questionnaire and 867 00:57:20.960 --> 00:57:22.760 I was still confident, you know, I'm going to fill 868 00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:25.079 this out. And the first question was where did you 869 00:57:25.079 --> 00:57:28.880 go to high school? And at this point I was 870 00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:33.320 busted because there was no record of Jack Barski having 871 00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:35.400 attended high school. I knew that Jack Barski was a 872 00:57:35.480 --> 00:57:38.599 very rare name, so there's no way that another, you know, 873 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:41.840 like a Jack Smith attended high school or something like that. 874 00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:46.960 So the high school in my backstory was Peter Stuyvesant, which, 875 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:49.079 by the way, was also a mistake. Because there was 876 00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:52.880 a school for the gifted, and my backstory had me 877 00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:55.400 grow up in the country, so I wasn't ring that 878 00:57:55.559 --> 00:58:05.559 mat Yeah, so anyway, so uh, my my ability to 879 00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:08.920 make a quick decision saved me from from true truly 880 00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:12.280 being busted. I I just walked back to This was instinct. 881 00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:15.360 I walked back to that window, and I was cursing 882 00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:18.039 him out and said, well, who needs all that bs 883 00:58:18.679 --> 00:58:23.239 And I grabbed the documentation and my application that was 884 00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:28.599 sitting in front of him and walked out and another 885 00:58:29.159 --> 00:58:32.239 security hold. The guy sort of remembered my name and 886 00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:39.320 reported me didn't but that busted by an A. So 887 00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:43.760 I and I felt like a total failure in a sense. 888 00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:48.119 I was you know, I hadn't thought this true. You 889 00:58:48.159 --> 00:58:51.559 know whatever. As smart as I am, I'm I'm I'm 890 00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:53.480 still pretty smart, and I still make a lot of 891 00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:56.760 dumb mistakes, though that one, that one was very costly 892 00:58:56.840 --> 00:58:59.119 and and I'm really glad I made this because I 893 00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:02.039 could have done a lot of damage to this country 894 00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:04.039 and I could have run up in jail as well. 895 00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:08.880 So never mind, but you know, I'm very glad that 896 00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:12.320 this failed. So well. Now plan B. You know, I'm 897 00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:15.920 back in Moscow, and I told him this is what happened. 898 00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:23.280 And at that point they had to keep me because 899 00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:27.360 I had proven I had done something that was very difficult. 900 00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:31.559 They were so impressed with me, like finding when I 901 00:59:31.639 --> 00:59:36.159 told them how I had to work hard to get 902 00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:40.519 around the obstacles to get the documentation to get the 903 00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:45.280 driver's license and the Social Security card, and how I 904 00:59:45.320 --> 00:59:50.559 had to improvise because their instructions didn't work. And then 905 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:54.800 then I got a job where I could actually finance myself. 906 00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:58.280 I didn't need any money from the KGB to exist 907 00:59:58.280 --> 01:00:00.960 once I had the job. I mean, they knew they 908 01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:04.719 had a good guy and they wanted to figure out 909 01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:09.360 how can we continue using him? And is one other 910 01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:13.360 thing that I found out that nobody ever told me. 911 01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:17.800 That became clear to me in one of those interviews 912 01:00:18.280 --> 01:00:22.400 where the head of the Director of the S stated 913 01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:27.239 quite clearly that the most value that it ascribed to 914 01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:30.599 US illegals in the US was out us being in 915 01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:33.559 the United States. And you put two and two together. 916 01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:36.440 We're talking about the late eighties who were the most 917 01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:42.719 the most dangerous and most damaging spies for the KGB 918 01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:45.719 in the United States. And you know those names, Aldo 919 01:00:45.840 --> 01:00:50.119 James and Robert Hansen, and who did they interact with 920 01:00:51.079 --> 01:00:56.280 the diplomats? So and there was an Andropook was very 921 01:00:56.360 --> 01:01:00.199 much concerned that diplomatic relations could be broken because there 922 01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:03.679 was this CIA versus KGB war going on in a 923 01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:07.639 lot of kicking out, you kick out out my spies, 924 01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:10.280 did not kick out your spies. And he was worried 925 01:01:10.599 --> 01:01:14.639 that no more diplomatic relations. There were no nonofficial cover 926 01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:19.440 people there to the extent I know US illegals would 927 01:01:19.480 --> 01:01:25.039 be left over to communicate, to keep that the chain 928 01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:28.800 of communication going. So they wanted me back there. And 929 01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:32.159 then they said, well, now, okay, you know when Plan 930 01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:34.239 B this is the long game. They didn't tell me 931 01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:37.800 about what I just told you. They kept that a secret. No, 932 01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:42.320 no instructions, nothing. I had no idea. This is compartmentalization 933 01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:46.639 to an extreme. And that was bad because you know, 934 01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:48.880 for me to make good decisions all by myself, and 935 01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:51.480 I needed to have some background for crying out loud. 936 01:01:52.000 --> 01:02:00.639 So anyway, so I went to college and graduated in 937 01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:08.639 three years. That's valedictorian. That was another mistake. There was 938 01:02:08.679 --> 01:02:13.320 the last vestige of cultural ignorance when the when the 939 01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:16.159 team called me into this office and asked me what 940 01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:20.360 my topic, what the graduation speech might be. And I said, 941 01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:23.599 what what graduation speech? Well, you're the valedictorian, has it, 942 01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:28.400 and you know, he talked me into it. I didn't 943 01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:31.079 want to do it, but whatever, I got lucky. Again, 944 01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:36.960 I could have been busted there. So but you know, 945 01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:39.440 and then and they asked me to, uh, you know, 946 01:02:39.480 --> 01:02:42.039 study economics and maybe get a job on Wall Street 947 01:02:42.079 --> 01:02:46.199 to be be rich. But I really liked information technology 948 01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:49.880 and I changed my major and I told him that 949 01:02:50.280 --> 01:02:53.320 and they were okay with that because they knew that 950 01:02:53.320 --> 01:02:55.960 that would make me pretty valuable down the road. 951 01:02:56.960 --> 01:03:00.239 Jack, I'd like to ask you, you know, you talked 952 01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:04.599 about building up your cover. First off, what was your 953 01:03:04.719 --> 01:03:07.400 cove com plan with KGB, Like, how did you get 954 01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:09.280 in touch with them and communicate with them. 955 01:03:09.119 --> 01:03:10.159 From the United States? 956 01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:12.280 And if we can start to talk about some of 957 01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:14.679 the operational taskings that they had for you. 958 01:03:15.679 --> 01:03:20.440 Yeah, so let's start with the operational cryptinal taskings. What 959 01:03:20.559 --> 01:03:29.920 I was told initially, I was prepped to befriend people 960 01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:34.800 in government who are in charge of foreign policy, for 961 01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:39.440 at least people in think tanks that influence foreign policy, 962 01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:47.039 such as the Hudson Institute and a few others, and 963 01:03:47.719 --> 01:03:51.000 that's all I knew. And of course there was always 964 01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:53.760 as many contexts as you can make to you know, 965 01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:58.679 I was to operate as a spotter. Okay, there were 966 01:03:58.719 --> 01:04:06.199 no other specific that that I was given until the 967 01:04:06.280 --> 01:04:08.800 last two years. They also asked me if I could 968 01:04:09.440 --> 01:04:12.760 get a hold of some information technology that was on 969 01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:19.760 the do not import list. So so the only success 970 01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:23.320 I might have had is that they may have recruited 971 01:04:23.320 --> 01:04:27.400 some people, particularly students who who I fingered as being 972 01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:34.119 good targets for for recruitment, possibly because they were pretty smart. 973 01:04:34.159 --> 01:04:38.719 But they they had, they had they were in those days, 974 01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:42.480 we recruited based on ideology primarily, and you know, the 975 01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:46.920 myce acronym the the I was still number one, and 976 01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:52.159 but ideology not necessarily communist ideology, just like radical right 977 01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:58.400 or even you know, fanatical supporters of of Israel. To 978 01:04:58.480 --> 01:05:01.440 record on a false flat and so of course, so 979 01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:03.920 I don't They never told me. They never once told 980 01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:07.199 me good job, not even in general. They just didn't 981 01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:10.280 let me know. They just gave me that decoration that 982 01:05:10.480 --> 01:05:13.199 indicated that I was doing a good job. So that's 983 01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:16.800 all I can tell you it's very surprising when people 984 01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.119 asked me, so, so, what did you really do? I 985 01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:24.519 never touched any document that had secrets. One thing and 986 01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:29.840 this is this is another educated guest. But I believe 987 01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:38.360 that they were considering me as a go between between 988 01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:45.920 either Aims or Hansen, because in nineteen eighty six, that 989 01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:49.440 was my last wizard to Moscow. They gave me a 990 01:05:49.480 --> 01:05:54.079 task to find a spot for a drop operation. Drop 991 01:05:54.960 --> 01:06:01.760 in yes, drop operation in New Hampshire place and in 992 01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:04.239 the wilderness. And they told me that would have to 993 01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:07.239 be a spot where you can deposit something that has 994 01:06:07.400 --> 01:06:17.880 size like a small suitcase. And I found the spot 995 01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:20.840 and and oh and they asked me if I was 996 01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:23.320 willing And this was the only time they asked me 997 01:06:23.679 --> 01:06:26.760 if I was willing to do a do a job 998 01:06:27.239 --> 01:06:31.039 that that is more that would increase the danger to 999 01:06:31.119 --> 01:06:35.719 my existence in the United States. Well, guess what courier 1000 01:06:36.239 --> 01:06:42.360 and handing and getting stuff from Aims or or or 1001 01:06:42.440 --> 01:06:49.519 hands and and then interacting with diplomats because at this 1002 01:06:49.599 --> 01:06:51.840 point I was very good at some ins detection. I 1003 01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:55.280 knew I was never followed, okay, and they knew that 1004 01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:56.800 I was good at this because I had a lot 1005 01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:02.599 very very good training. So so that was they were 1006 01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:06.039 considering it, and they pulled it back for some reason. 1007 01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:09.480 So, you know, it's interesting to me that you know, 1008 01:07:09.559 --> 01:07:13.000 you mentioned like the issues with the passport as your failure, 1009 01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:17.000 but really that feels like a failure of the KGB 1010 01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:22.039 because they know espionage, right, they know that that covers 1011 01:07:22.199 --> 01:07:25.400 need to be backstopped, right, that they that they things 1012 01:07:25.440 --> 01:07:28.039 need to happen. And I can't believe for a second 1013 01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:32.119 that they didn't have low level assets in the State 1014 01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:34.760 Department that could have rubber stamped things like that. 1015 01:07:35.639 --> 01:07:37.679 There was no backstop. I had to do it all 1016 01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:38.199 on my own. 1017 01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:39.480 That's that's crazy too. 1018 01:07:39.519 --> 01:07:42.760 What did what they did do? They did research for 1019 01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:45.840 my cover story. So they found the school where I 1020 01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:50.360 went to, uh, where I went to elementary school and 1021 01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:54.840 middle school. They picked the high school that they didn't know, 1022 01:07:54.880 --> 01:08:00.599 what's the wrong high school, Peter Stuyvesant, I believe, uh Uh. 1023 01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:05.079 Then then they did something really good. They had me 1024 01:08:05.599 --> 01:08:11.880 uh quit high school because of migraines. They also had 1025 01:08:11.920 --> 01:08:15.920 my father die because my mother my mother's maiden name 1026 01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:18.319 was Schwartz, and so I grew up bi lingual. So 1027 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:22.159 this way I could somebody asked me about the touch 1028 01:08:22.159 --> 01:08:24.399 of an accent that I still have. I said, yeah, yeah, 1029 01:08:24.399 --> 01:08:26.560 I grew up at lingual in New York. That that's 1030 01:08:26.600 --> 01:08:30.279 the end of that and that question. So uh, and 1031 01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:34.600 then they had me with I my father died, I 1032 01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:41.119 grew up with my mother. They had me quit high 1033 01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:45.199 my mom actually the dad I died from a heart 1034 01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:48.720 attack and my mom died pretty young in a traffic accident. 1035 01:08:49.199 --> 01:08:53.119 And I was like grief stricken and quit high school. 1036 01:08:53.119 --> 01:08:55.920 I was at Migraines and I started working in a 1037 01:08:56.000 --> 01:09:01.039 chemical factory. Uh, George Luterson Company, I still remember. And 1038 01:09:01.119 --> 01:09:07.279 George Ludison Company had exploded so it didn't exist anymore. 1039 01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:11.319 And then they had me go to an upstate farm 1040 01:09:11.319 --> 01:09:16.079 in New York City. That one wasn't backstopped, but you know, 1041 01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:18.960 so I and when I came to the United States, 1042 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:22.159 you know, I was a country boy who was going 1043 01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:25.560 to try to make it in New York. And then 1044 01:09:25.920 --> 01:09:28.680 it was okay, but it wasn't backstopped at all. 1045 01:09:28.880 --> 01:09:32.199 Yeah, and then the communication with the KGD. 1046 01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:38.760 Communication was the hardest part of it all. So every 1047 01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:45.800 Thursday night I got a radiogram Morse code shortwave double 1048 01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:53.960 encrypted every Thursday. For ten years at nineteen forty five, 1049 01:09:54.079 --> 01:09:57.680 I had to dial my frequency and listen to the radiogram, 1050 01:09:57.720 --> 01:09:59.640 and sometimes it was pretty long, and then I had 1051 01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:04.199 to sit down on and decipher. And for most of 1052 01:10:04.239 --> 01:10:07.800 my uh my years, I had to use a manual 1053 01:10:07.840 --> 01:10:12.239 algorithm no no one time pad, so that took quite 1054 01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:14.279 a while, and you have to you had to really 1055 01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:20.000 double up on the on developing the the second set 1056 01:10:20.039 --> 01:10:21.600 of numbers to make sure that you didn't make a 1057 01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:27.000 mistake right. So so very often, you know, on Thursdays, 1058 01:10:27.000 --> 01:10:30.479 I was not available socially and complained about that because 1059 01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:32.600 that's a pattern. You don't want to have a pattern 1060 01:10:34.279 --> 01:10:36.640 as an agent. You know, what's what's wrong with this guy? 1061 01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:41.199 What is he doing on Thursday? And and they said 1062 01:10:41.319 --> 01:10:43.520 there's nothing we can do about it. My conclusion is 1063 01:10:44.079 --> 01:10:49.640 that they went a time out of Cuba because initially, 1064 01:10:49.680 --> 01:10:52.079 when when I first went to the US, they told 1065 01:10:52.079 --> 01:10:56.479 me to to go to a hotel that has southern exposure, 1066 01:10:57.359 --> 01:11:02.640 so Bingo. So anyway, sometimes it took me until about 1067 01:11:03.319 --> 01:11:06.000 three in the morning to decipher the radiogram, and I 1068 01:11:06.039 --> 01:11:09.279 got really pissed off when I got Sometimes they started 1069 01:11:09.279 --> 01:11:14.800 with something congratulations comrade theater on May first, the international 1070 01:11:16.439 --> 01:11:19.960 holiday for the for the workers. What the heck are 1071 01:11:19.960 --> 01:11:20.479 you giving me? 1072 01:11:20.520 --> 01:11:22.439 That kind of pis And it takes you like an 1073 01:11:22.479 --> 01:11:26.960 hour to decipher all of that exactly, So. 1074 01:11:27.119 --> 01:11:32.199 You know that, you know that I call as clever 1075 01:11:32.239 --> 01:11:36.159 as some of these people were, but I call the 1076 01:11:36.279 --> 01:11:43.800 KGB as I experienced the Keystone cops of espionage. Okay. 1077 01:11:43.279 --> 01:11:47.279 The the other thing that the way I communicated back 1078 01:11:47.319 --> 01:11:50.920 to them, it was wise of them for me not 1079 01:11:51.000 --> 01:11:53.760 to use Morse code because you know where it comes from. 1080 01:11:53.800 --> 01:11:55.760 You don't you don't know where it goes through it wave, 1081 01:11:56.199 --> 01:11:58.760 but you know where it comes from. So I had 1082 01:11:58.800 --> 01:12:07.199 to do secret writing. And I had two uh addresses 1083 01:12:08.359 --> 01:12:12.439 someplace in the Western world. One one was initially in Berlin, 1084 01:12:13.199 --> 01:12:17.800 then uh Then one was in uh In in Austria. 1085 01:12:19.159 --> 01:12:21.600 When I was a bike messenger and I couldn't socialize 1086 01:12:21.640 --> 01:12:24.399 and I couldn't watch TV all night, I taught myself 1087 01:12:24.439 --> 01:12:29.039 Spanish and so eventually they found an address someplace in 1088 01:12:29.039 --> 01:12:34.640 in South South America. I was limited to two pages 1089 01:12:35.840 --> 01:12:40.439 per letter and one letter per month to each one 1090 01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:44.319 of the addresses. No more so two pages. You can't 1091 01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:48.159 fit a whole lot of information onto two pages and 1092 01:12:48.640 --> 01:12:52.319 so uh. And on top of it, I had so 1093 01:12:52.600 --> 01:12:55.600 and this this. This was a lengthy operation. It took 1094 01:12:55.640 --> 01:12:59.680 pretty much almost all of my of my saturday when 1095 01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:03.039 I I did this on I did this on a Saturday. Uh. 1096 01:13:03.159 --> 01:13:07.239 First of all, you have to prepare the surface. You 1097 01:13:07.279 --> 01:13:09.479 have to clean everything very well. You have to put 1098 01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:14.920 gloves on you you you have to you use either 1099 01:13:15.079 --> 01:13:21.000 a mirror or a glass, a sheet of glass to 1100 01:13:21.359 --> 01:13:23.680 operate on. That had to be cleaned up. Then you 1101 01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:27.880 clean up the paper you're using with with you gotta 1102 01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:30.640 wash your hands and you clean that up before before 1103 01:13:30.680 --> 01:13:35.439 you put the gloves on. Then you devise the open text. 1104 01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:37.840 You write this down someplace else, and then you copy 1105 01:13:37.920 --> 01:13:43.199 this in the in uh you know, in in not 1106 01:13:43.359 --> 01:13:47.800 in handwriting. What's the other one? You look? You I 1107 01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:53.439 forgot the word yeah? Uh? And and then you take 1108 01:13:53.479 --> 01:13:57.359 your contact paper out, which it was a sheet that 1109 01:13:57.560 --> 01:14:01.600 was in a in a in a notebook that was 1110 01:14:02.399 --> 01:14:05.800 it had a trace of a chemical on it and 1111 01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:08.560 with the first ten pages of a notebook. They bought 1112 01:14:08.560 --> 01:14:12.560 this at a Walmart and then pregnated this with some 1113 01:14:12.640 --> 01:14:15.159 chemical that you can't you can't find unless you know 1114 01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:18.840 what you're looking for. So and then then I did this, 1115 01:14:19.000 --> 01:14:23.479 you know, the with the help of that that that page, 1116 01:14:23.960 --> 01:14:29.960 I put the secret writing on the letter the paper 1117 01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:35.880 that went into the letter, and then I, uh put 1118 01:14:36.039 --> 01:14:39.560 a hair dryer. I used the hair dryer to smooth 1119 01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:43.720 out and everything so you don't see any imprint, right nothing. 1120 01:14:44.199 --> 01:14:48.680 I had to also use you know, be be used. 1121 01:14:49.319 --> 01:14:53.239 I had to. I practiced this in Moscow to make 1122 01:14:53.279 --> 01:14:55.520 sure that I don't leave too much garbage and the 1123 01:14:55.920 --> 01:14:58.680 imprint is not too strong. So so this was this 1124 01:14:58.880 --> 01:15:02.079 was that this training was really good. And then I 1125 01:15:02.199 --> 01:15:06.239 was required to go on surveillance on a surveillance detection 1126 01:15:06.319 --> 01:15:10.359 route for three hours before mailing this thing in you know, 1127 01:15:10.399 --> 01:15:13.760 putting it in a mailbox. So that took care for 1128 01:15:13.960 --> 01:15:18.560 most of my Saturday every other Saturday, so again I 1129 01:15:18.680 --> 01:15:22.560 was not available to socialize on Saturdays. It was horrible. 1130 01:15:22.600 --> 01:15:25.600 And here comes here comes my biggest complaint that I 1131 01:15:25.640 --> 01:15:31.520 never that I never voiced. But I've heard the FBI 1132 01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:37.079 complaining about bureaucracy, and this was entirely bureaucratic. Once a quarter, 1133 01:15:37.800 --> 01:15:43.359 I had to use a valuable real estate for secret 1134 01:15:43.479 --> 01:15:50.000 riting to issue a finance report. Okay, how much money 1135 01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:56.399 I spent because they paid for my the the rent 1136 01:15:56.680 --> 01:15:59.880 for my apartment, They took care of my medical expenses, 1137 01:16:00.920 --> 01:16:03.920 and they paid for half of when I had a vehicle, 1138 01:16:03.960 --> 01:16:08.039 for half of my car expenses. So I just they 1139 01:16:08.039 --> 01:16:10.479 didn't give me the money, so but I had to 1140 01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:13.760 write down what it was to send it in. That 1141 01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:16.880 was idiotic. They spent so much money on training me, 1142 01:16:17.039 --> 01:16:23.439 so much money on maintaining me, and and and they 1143 01:16:23.039 --> 01:16:31.319 they had me account for a few hundred dollars every quarter. Yeah, 1144 01:16:31.359 --> 01:16:34.399 so you know, again, you know, there's nothing but complaints, 1145 01:16:34.399 --> 01:16:37.239 but that one I didn't. I didn't complain about simply 1146 01:16:37.279 --> 01:16:40.640 because they promised me that this money that they didn't 1147 01:16:40.680 --> 01:16:44.359 have to send me was they that was saved up 1148 01:16:44.359 --> 01:16:47.520 for me and my family. And they did save save 1149 01:16:47.880 --> 01:16:50.399 some at least I don't know if they saved everything. 1150 01:16:51.079 --> 01:16:54.600 But they gave my my German family some of the 1151 01:16:54.640 --> 01:16:58.640 money that I asked them to hand over. I asked 1152 01:16:58.680 --> 01:17:00.800 them to give give them everything. I don't know if 1153 01:17:00.840 --> 01:17:04.920 they did so, but I'm getting ahead of myself. So 1154 01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:08.319 this was the communication. One other means of communication was 1155 01:17:08.359 --> 01:17:13.680 dead drops. So for instance, when I got a passport, 1156 01:17:14.119 --> 01:17:17.840 I always traveled. When I went back to Moscow, and 1157 01:17:17.359 --> 01:17:21.880 I went back to Moscow four times every other every 1158 01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:29.159 other year, I went back with a forts passport. I 1159 01:17:29.199 --> 01:17:32.399 think they were mostly German, and they were not They 1160 01:17:32.399 --> 01:17:34.640 were not not American. They may have been Canadian, but 1161 01:17:34.640 --> 01:17:39.039 but not American. They the rule was not ever to 1162 01:17:39.159 --> 01:17:42.560 use a passport, a forged passport in the country where 1163 01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:47.520 you operate off that country, you know. So so for 1164 01:17:47.520 --> 01:17:50.920 for traveling back, they had to give me some money, 1165 01:17:51.279 --> 01:17:53.520 some travel money and a passport, and that was done 1166 01:17:53.880 --> 01:17:58.199 via dead drop operations. And occasionally, when I had too 1167 01:17:58.279 --> 01:18:03.760 much information that you know, lengthy report, occasionally they asked 1168 01:18:03.760 --> 01:18:07.520 me to write down, you know, what Americans think about 1169 01:18:07.920 --> 01:18:12.920 certain occurrences in in in the world, such as the 1170 01:18:14.439 --> 01:18:20.840 shooting down of the South Korean airline. And so at 1171 01:18:20.840 --> 01:18:23.840 that point, I, you know, I put my foreign policy 1172 01:18:23.880 --> 01:18:26.119 hat on and I wrote something that was too long 1173 01:18:26.399 --> 01:18:29.680 to put in a letter, so that I photographed and 1174 01:18:29.840 --> 01:18:33.319 put in a a container and asked for a dead 1175 01:18:33.359 --> 01:18:35.840 drop operation. And that happened about three or two or 1176 01:18:35.880 --> 01:18:42.439 three times, by the way, just yeah, to to add 1177 01:18:42.439 --> 01:18:48.800 something interesting in that particular report, I hammered them. I 1178 01:18:48.880 --> 01:18:52.000 told him what the heck were you doing this? This 1179 01:18:52.680 --> 01:18:57.359 raised raised the level of anti Americanism tremendously, has put 1180 01:18:57.439 --> 01:19:00.359 a lot of strain and and it's in danger. During 1181 01:19:00.840 --> 01:19:05.199 the negotiations that Gorbachev already had with with with Reagan, 1182 01:19:06.880 --> 01:19:09.680 I hope they listened, Jack. 1183 01:19:10.000 --> 01:19:14.279 How is your ideology holding up? You know, like, you know, 1184 01:19:14.319 --> 01:19:17.039 you grew up with one idea of the West. Then 1185 01:19:17.079 --> 01:19:19.960 you moved there your bike messenger for seven years. You know, 1186 01:19:20.039 --> 01:19:23.560 you're you go to college. Were you were you still 1187 01:19:23.600 --> 01:19:27.880 kind of vaccinated against it? Or it was like living 1188 01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:29.960 in the land of the big p X sort of 1189 01:19:30.039 --> 01:19:33.479 like or you know, the walmarts? Was that starting to 1190 01:19:33.640 --> 01:19:35.039 infiltrate your your thinking? 1191 01:19:35.880 --> 01:19:40.520 Good question, the vaccine held up for a while. First 1192 01:19:40.560 --> 01:19:43.840 of all, I already expected after I had this practice 1193 01:19:43.880 --> 01:19:47.359 troke to Canada that and I know even West Germany, 1194 01:19:47.399 --> 01:19:50.760 that would be wealth. And we are rationalizing the wealth 1195 01:19:50.800 --> 01:19:58.439 that that the NATO state states had one word imperialism, 1196 01:19:59.079 --> 01:20:01.600 that they stole all the the stuff, that the good 1197 01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:04.319 stuff from from the third world. Some of it is true, 1198 01:20:04.319 --> 01:20:09.359 but clearly, once I had a job in corporate I 1199 01:20:09.479 --> 01:20:13.159 realized that a lot of that wealth was generated by 1200 01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:17.119 hard work, by comparison. You know, in East Germany, you 1201 01:20:17.159 --> 01:20:18.960 didn't have to work hard if you didn't want to. 1202 01:20:19.119 --> 01:20:22.399 Everybody got paid the same. There was no pay for performance. 1203 01:20:23.840 --> 01:20:29.319 And maybe maybe collectives occasionally would get an award if 1204 01:20:29.319 --> 01:20:31.359 they did a good job, but but that was not 1205 01:20:31.479 --> 01:20:36.960 the rule. So UH and I and UH, I was 1206 01:20:37.000 --> 01:20:40.600 also looking for the evil capitalists. You know. My first 1207 01:20:40.640 --> 01:20:45.600 job was with a with an insurance company, and in 1208 01:20:45.640 --> 01:20:49.520 those days they were extremely paternalistic and it felt like 1209 01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:52.359 going home. It's like working working in you know, for 1210 01:20:52.399 --> 01:20:56.319 a big company in East Germany. You know, you you 1211 01:20:56.319 --> 01:20:58.800 you get tired, and they promised you a job for life. 1212 01:20:59.199 --> 01:21:02.640 We had free life lunch and you know, and my 1213 01:21:02.720 --> 01:21:08.000 bosses were all nice. So I couldn't find the evil capitalists, 1214 01:21:08.079 --> 01:21:10.439 you know, I was looking for them, but they weren't 1215 01:21:10.680 --> 01:21:14.199 They weren't very visible. So so here here's how I 1216 01:21:14.319 --> 01:21:21.239 morphed from from communism into what what happened to other 1217 01:21:21.279 --> 01:21:27.199 people as well. And it's called the conversion UH theory. 1218 01:21:28.119 --> 01:21:32.119 So that that that that was actually developed by socialist 1219 01:21:32.159 --> 01:21:36.119 parties in Western countries and NATO countries, so that the 1220 01:21:36.199 --> 01:21:42.680 good parts of capitalism and social socialism will be joined 1221 01:21:43.119 --> 01:21:46.720 to create some kind of a welfare state. I thought 1222 01:21:46.760 --> 01:21:50.000 it was a good idea. And guess what the fellow 1223 01:21:50.039 --> 01:21:54.720 that picked me up in Macco and with with with 1224 01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:58.760 a limousine, the KGB agent who picked me up a 1225 01:22:02.039 --> 01:22:06.319 volunteered he talked about without me even saying anything. He 1226 01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:09.880 talked about convergence theory. And this guy was not a 1227 01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:12.800 very bright guy. So if he said that he heard 1228 01:22:12.840 --> 01:22:15.880 it from from from the top, I think it may 1229 01:22:15.960 --> 01:22:19.479 it may have had taken vote within the KGB itself. 1230 01:22:19.840 --> 01:22:24.960 I'm pretty sure it did. So I wasn't a communist anymore, 1231 01:22:25.000 --> 01:22:28.800 but you know, convergence theory seemed to be a good idea. 1232 01:22:28.880 --> 01:22:35.199 But this is when my world fell apart. So I 1233 01:22:35.279 --> 01:22:39.279 resigned from the KGB in nineteen eighty eight. In nineteen 1234 01:22:39.319 --> 01:22:42.840 eighty nine, the wall, the wall came down, and I 1235 01:22:42.920 --> 01:22:45.039 was sitting in my apartment in Queens and I watched 1236 01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:48.960 it on TV and I said, that can't be because 1237 01:22:49.159 --> 01:22:52.640 nobody expected that, not the KGB, not the CIA, not 1238 01:22:52.760 --> 01:22:56.840 the stars. He was clearly not I thought, you know, 1239 01:22:57.159 --> 01:23:03.439 East Germany was still on path to overtake the western 1240 01:23:03.439 --> 01:23:07.159 part and like create a great economy. Blah blah blah, 1241 01:23:07.199 --> 01:23:09.399 blah blah, and all of a sudden it fell apart. 1242 01:23:09.479 --> 01:23:12.279 So now I had to find out what what what 1243 01:23:12.399 --> 01:23:16.359 happened there, And because of the availability of the Internet, 1244 01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:22.239 I could find out rather quickly that I had been 1245 01:23:22.319 --> 01:23:28.760 lied to and in spades from from day one, but 1246 01:23:28.920 --> 01:23:36.840 including also the mark the scientific uh, scientific Marxism Leninism thing. 1247 01:23:37.520 --> 01:23:41.199 And I got my hands on the original writings of 1248 01:23:41.319 --> 01:23:45.800 Vladimir Lenin, who was my hero because he implemented the 1249 01:23:45.840 --> 01:23:51.840 Marxist theory. In reality he created the Communist Russia and 1250 01:23:51.880 --> 01:23:55.279 then created the Soviet Union, and he was a hero 1251 01:23:55.399 --> 01:23:59.920 because he gave his life for it. And he you'll know, 1252 01:24:00.079 --> 01:24:04.640 he died as a result of the weakening, after having 1253 01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:10.560 been having been subject to it and attempted assassination. So 1254 01:24:10.840 --> 01:24:14.680 in my hero, I knew that Stalin was bad. But 1255 01:24:14.840 --> 01:24:18.760 my hero turned out to be just as merciless a 1256 01:24:18.880 --> 01:24:23.399 killer than Stalin was, because there were passages in his writing, 1257 01:24:24.359 --> 01:24:28.159 unredacted writing where it stated uh, And I forgot what 1258 01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:32.000 the title of the book was. It may have been 1259 01:24:32.079 --> 01:24:35.279 one step forward and two steps back, but it doesn't matter. 1260 01:24:35.560 --> 01:24:41.720 He gave instructions to to Feelings Jasinski, and in the 1261 01:24:41.720 --> 01:24:45.680 Cohorts of the chi Ka that was the forerunner of 1262 01:24:45.760 --> 01:24:50.680 the KGB. To uh you got to hang some some culos, 1263 01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:54.279 the rich rich peasants by the by the road, hanging 1264 01:24:54.359 --> 01:24:59.279 from trees so they're visible. That to give people an 1265 01:24:59.319 --> 01:25:04.880 idea that you know, having great wealth is not very uh, 1266 01:25:05.439 --> 01:25:07.520 it's it's not a very good thing for your for 1267 01:25:07.600 --> 01:25:10.560 your for your health might actually wind up in death. 1268 01:25:10.960 --> 01:25:15.760 That is what Lennon said. That's it man. Uh. Now 1269 01:25:17.359 --> 01:25:21.000 I now became secretly an anti communist. Now now I'm 1270 01:25:21.039 --> 01:25:29.399 opening an anti communist because I also had the opportunity 1271 01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:35.760 to to learn about the United States and how how 1272 01:25:35.760 --> 01:25:38.760 it was formed by the founders. I took an online 1273 01:25:38.800 --> 01:25:46.520 course uh and several years ago and uh and and 1274 01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:50.039 in seven eleven made me emotionally an Americans. So so 1275 01:25:50.159 --> 01:25:54.039 there's there's nothing left. But it was a very very 1276 01:25:54.239 --> 01:25:58.159 long transition. You know, when when I resigned from the 1277 01:25:58.279 --> 01:26:03.239 KGB and I just got I stepped out of you know, 1278 01:26:03.479 --> 01:26:08.159 political thinking, policy thinking. I just dedicated myself to my family, 1279 01:26:08.920 --> 01:26:11.119 and you know, I became you know, I wasn't into 1280 01:26:11.119 --> 01:26:15.000 consumer rism, you know, great by big houses and I 1281 01:26:15.039 --> 01:26:18.840 could at one point two cars for the family, My 1282 01:26:19.199 --> 01:26:22.359 two wives that I had, my two wives that I 1283 01:26:22.399 --> 01:26:26.279 had in my entire life. In American wives never had 1284 01:26:26.319 --> 01:26:30.199 to work one hour in their life. So I became 1285 01:26:30.239 --> 01:26:33.680 a consumer and that was my focus. But you know, 1286 01:26:33.760 --> 01:26:39.279 seven eleven and eleven made me emotional an American, and 1287 01:26:39.319 --> 01:26:44.319 then I became intellectual an American truly, because when when 1288 01:26:44.319 --> 01:26:47.680 I took that course on uh on the American Constitution, 1289 01:26:47.800 --> 01:26:51.520 I said, yeah, that's the only way to deal with 1290 01:26:51.760 --> 01:26:55.640 the evil that we have experienced throughout history and it's 1291 01:26:55.680 --> 01:26:59.680 still in existence. So this, this is, this was my journey. 1292 01:26:59.680 --> 01:27:04.800 If I'm add to this, my friends who I studied with, 1293 01:27:05.840 --> 01:27:11.720 and particularly the ones that became party members and were 1294 01:27:11.760 --> 01:27:14.039 active in the youth movements, such as my best friend 1295 01:27:14.800 --> 01:27:18.119 who actually wound up in the Starzi, but he was 1296 01:27:18.159 --> 01:27:23.600 as a chemist. He actually wound up heading the forgery 1297 01:27:23.640 --> 01:27:28.439 department of the Starzi. So and those when when the 1298 01:27:28.479 --> 01:27:32.560 wall came down there that was just as surprising for them, 1299 01:27:32.600 --> 01:27:36.000 and all of a sudden it hit it hit them hard. 1300 01:27:36.720 --> 01:27:41.520 It hit them hard because now you cannot absolutely believe 1301 01:27:41.640 --> 01:27:46.359 that you that you served the wrong cause. So they 1302 01:27:46.359 --> 01:27:49.000 were all miserable and when I when I met them, 1303 01:27:49.560 --> 01:27:52.600 they were complaining you know we had the wrong leadership. 1304 01:27:52.720 --> 01:27:55.560 You know, the communism is still a good cause, and 1305 01:27:55.720 --> 01:27:58.680 you know we were not wrong. But they also had 1306 01:27:58.680 --> 01:28:02.640 their pensions that caught in have and and just like 1307 01:28:02.720 --> 01:28:06.159 they were full of complaints and were miserable. So again 1308 01:28:06.399 --> 01:28:11.720 I got lucky to decontaminate very slowly, because I don't 1309 01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:13.399 know what it would what it would have happened to 1310 01:28:13.439 --> 01:28:17.239 me had I, let's say, had I followed the KGB 1311 01:28:17.760 --> 01:28:20.479 uh when they told me, when I had listened to 1312 01:28:20.479 --> 01:28:23.520 them and they told me to go back because we 1313 01:28:23.600 --> 01:28:27.239 may want to come to that yet, and I would 1314 01:28:27.239 --> 01:28:29.800 have wound up living my life out in Russia after 1315 01:28:29.840 --> 01:28:32.039 the wall came down. I would be miserable, as ol. 1316 01:28:32.560 --> 01:28:35.479 Can Can you tell us a little bit more about 1317 01:28:35.520 --> 01:28:38.439 like the unraveling about how you were exposed as a 1318 01:28:38.520 --> 01:28:42.039 KGB officer in America? And I have to imagine that 1319 01:28:42.079 --> 01:28:47.159 the FBI was all over you for many many years. 1320 01:28:47.199 --> 01:28:51.159 Actually not true. I got to tell you that I 1321 01:28:51.239 --> 01:28:53.399 first resigned before the FBI found me. 1322 01:28:53.680 --> 01:28:57.920 Yeah, what led to your resignation? And did were you 1323 01:28:58.000 --> 01:28:59.279 afraid that they were going to kill you? 1324 01:29:01.399 --> 01:29:06.359 Yes? I was concerned. Okay, what was led to my resignation? 1325 01:29:06.680 --> 01:29:11.319 Was four letter word l O V E. I. Unbeknownst 1326 01:29:11.359 --> 01:29:17.520 to them, I was married to this this young lady 1327 01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:22.119 who who was originally from South America, and she became 1328 01:29:22.159 --> 01:29:29.640 pregnant on purpose because she I just wanted to date her. 1329 01:29:29.640 --> 01:29:31.840 I didn't want to marry her, and I told her 1330 01:29:31.840 --> 01:29:34.760 I'm not going to get married to you. But then 1331 01:29:34.800 --> 01:29:36.760 she said to me, you know I'm illegal, can you 1332 01:29:36.800 --> 01:29:39.560 help me get married? And so I could get a 1333 01:29:39.600 --> 01:29:42.239 green card, And I said, I did some research and 1334 01:29:42.279 --> 01:29:44.920 I figured yeah, that that will work. And and so 1335 01:29:45.119 --> 01:29:49.359 he has an illegal, make making another illegal legal. She 1336 01:29:49.439 --> 01:29:52.600 became a citizen because she was married to me, and 1337 01:29:52.640 --> 01:29:57.920 at that point I was still illegal. Bizarre. So uh. 1338 01:29:58.640 --> 01:30:03.079 And she became pregnant on parma is because that's something 1339 01:30:03.359 --> 01:30:08.159 that women who came from other countries did when they 1340 01:30:08.199 --> 01:30:12.079 found a real good man. So and I didn't fall 1341 01:30:12.119 --> 01:30:13.880 in love with her. I liked her a lot. She 1342 01:30:14.079 --> 01:30:18.680 was good company, very beautiful. But I loved the little 1343 01:30:18.720 --> 01:30:22.119 girl that grew up in eighteen months. And you know 1344 01:30:22.199 --> 01:30:26.880 when this is I don't know if you have children 1345 01:30:27.159 --> 01:30:33.880 or particularly girls, most men can relate to that. I 1346 01:30:33.920 --> 01:30:39.920 watched this baby grow up and unbeknownst to me, I 1347 01:30:39.960 --> 01:30:42.880 had an attack of unconditional love. It was so strong 1348 01:30:42.880 --> 01:30:45.600 and was much stronger than any feeling I had, and 1349 01:30:46.279 --> 01:30:53.000 to towards a woman it was it had no desire 1350 01:30:53.399 --> 01:30:57.399 of getting anything back. The only desire was to serve 1351 01:30:57.479 --> 01:31:01.279 this girl and help her and just just be there 1352 01:31:01.319 --> 01:31:05.000 for her and love her to pieces. So it was 1353 01:31:05.359 --> 01:31:08.640 in late fall of nineteen eighty eight when the KGB 1354 01:31:09.960 --> 01:31:16.800 somehow got spooked when somebody must have whispered something into 1355 01:31:17.199 --> 01:31:22.039 somebody's ears where they had some reason to believe that 1356 01:31:22.319 --> 01:31:26.319 I might be in danger. And the last thing they 1357 01:31:26.359 --> 01:31:29.680 wanted me to be in jail. And I tell you 1358 01:31:29.760 --> 01:31:32.880 most people don't understand this, but you do. They want 1359 01:31:32.960 --> 01:31:35.479 to worried about me. They were worried about me being 1360 01:31:35.520 --> 01:31:39.199 in jail because they would cause them headaches, because if 1361 01:31:39.199 --> 01:31:40.800 I wind up in jail, they have to get me 1362 01:31:40.840 --> 01:31:44.439 out otherwise they can't recruit somebody else, okay. And I 1363 01:31:44.520 --> 01:31:47.920 knew they would get me out, That's what they told me. 1364 01:31:48.000 --> 01:31:50.840 And they got the coins out and I had evidence 1365 01:31:50.880 --> 01:31:54.840 that they would keep their word. So they wanted to 1366 01:31:54.840 --> 01:31:58.800 avoid that headache, so they called me back and so 1367 01:31:58.880 --> 01:32:04.199 they we had a and an emergency procedure that they 1368 01:32:04.600 --> 01:32:09.039 activated with with a graphic signal, a red dot on 1369 01:32:09.039 --> 01:32:11.000 my way to work. They knew I had to tell 1370 01:32:11.039 --> 01:32:14.359 them which way I was going to work, so so 1371 01:32:14.520 --> 01:32:16.800 there could be some There was a graphic signal spot 1372 01:32:16.840 --> 01:32:21.760 that I could should check every day, graphic signal. And 1373 01:32:21.800 --> 01:32:26.239 now I had a problem because I hadn't figured I 1374 01:32:26.319 --> 01:32:28.560 wanted to figure out how how could I support this 1375 01:32:28.560 --> 01:32:33.079 girl and her mother remotely? I had no idea. And 1376 01:32:33.159 --> 01:32:40.920 after some some uh, you know, I stalled initially because 1377 01:32:41.479 --> 01:32:44.520 maybe I was sick. There was there was a there 1378 01:32:44.560 --> 01:32:46.560 was a situation where I was sick and I could 1379 01:32:46.680 --> 01:32:49.840 not I was not operational for a month I had 1380 01:32:50.239 --> 01:32:52.359 as a bike messenger. I had busted my right shoulder 1381 01:32:52.399 --> 01:32:56.760 and I couldn't do anything. So uh, and they knew 1382 01:32:56.800 --> 01:33:00.359 about that, and so I could have been sick and 1383 01:33:01.520 --> 01:33:04.720 my radio could have not functioned and so forth. So 1384 01:33:06.880 --> 01:33:10.199 I bought myself a couple of week weeks, maybe three weeks. 1385 01:33:10.279 --> 01:33:13.439 But three weeks later they did something that was unusual. 1386 01:33:13.920 --> 01:33:17.640 They wanted to figure out am I still around, and 1387 01:33:17.720 --> 01:33:22.119 so they sent one of their diplomats to check on me, 1388 01:33:23.720 --> 01:33:27.680 and he found me when I was waiting for the 1389 01:33:27.720 --> 01:33:32.079 a train going from Queens into Manhattan. He found me 1390 01:33:32.159 --> 01:33:35.319 waiting for that train and was still dark, and he 1391 01:33:35.439 --> 01:33:39.119 came to me from my right. I can remember this 1392 01:33:39.520 --> 01:33:42.880 like it was yesterday. A short guy in a dark coat, 1393 01:33:44.119 --> 01:33:46.640 and he came really close to me and whispered into 1394 01:33:46.640 --> 01:33:51.720 my right ear, you gotta come home. It's dead. And 1395 01:33:51.760 --> 01:33:57.319 that was stated with a very strong Russian accent. All right, 1396 01:33:57.760 --> 01:34:00.680 you have to take that seriously. Yeah. On the one hand, 1397 01:34:01.840 --> 01:34:04.680 because he spoke us bad English, I thought he may 1398 01:34:04.720 --> 01:34:09.840 have just, uh, you know, used the wrong word. Maybe 1399 01:34:09.920 --> 01:34:15.039 maybe he wanted to say you you busted, and he 1400 01:34:15.079 --> 01:34:21.920 didn't have the vocabulary. That threat had to be taken seriously. 1401 01:34:22.199 --> 01:34:24.800 So the one the only thing that I could think 1402 01:34:24.840 --> 01:34:32.960 of is changing my daily routine, going to work at 1403 01:34:32.960 --> 01:34:37.680 a different time, taking different routes, taking different trains, making 1404 01:34:37.680 --> 01:34:40.560 sure that I'm not reliable in the same spot at 1405 01:34:40.560 --> 01:34:43.359 the same time. Now, in the long run, that wouldn't 1406 01:34:43.359 --> 01:34:49.600 have worked. I am now certain that they they bought 1407 01:34:49.640 --> 01:34:52.159 the light that I fed him, so they weren't after me. 1408 01:34:52.319 --> 01:34:57.439 But I didn't know that, right. That's a pretty brave 1409 01:34:57.600 --> 01:35:00.359 things to do, and that's why I'm saying nowadays, love 1410 01:35:00.439 --> 01:35:03.560 conquers all I just I could not leave this kid. 1411 01:35:04.680 --> 01:35:07.880 And then I took you know, I went on you know, 1412 01:35:08.880 --> 01:35:13.560 Surveillius detection routes and mailed myself a letter to determine 1413 01:35:13.560 --> 01:35:16.039 as to whether you know the letter was opened. There's 1414 01:35:16.119 --> 01:35:21.279 the technique that I was taught. And uh, and and 1415 01:35:21.279 --> 01:35:24.920 and also what was the other thing I did? Oh? 1416 01:35:25.239 --> 01:35:28.520 I had in my in my apartment, I had two 1417 01:35:28.520 --> 01:35:33.520 spots that where I absolutely knew if somebody actually went 1418 01:35:33.560 --> 01:35:36.039 through my apartment, I would know. And I tell you 1419 01:35:37.199 --> 01:35:40.720 one was my favorite. I had a chest of drawers 1420 01:35:41.039 --> 01:35:44.720 where the one of the drawers had an overhang, so 1421 01:35:44.840 --> 01:35:48.960 when you look at the drawer front, you did not 1422 01:35:49.239 --> 01:35:55.920 see that that the door closed. Actually more ah, that 1423 01:35:56.720 --> 01:35:59.159 when you closed the door it was further in than 1424 01:35:59.239 --> 01:36:03.520 the way I left it. Every night when I went home, 1425 01:36:03.920 --> 01:36:08.199 I checked that this this gap was eight millimeters. This 1426 01:36:08.319 --> 01:36:11.760 I was pretty certain about. And because there's one time 1427 01:36:12.479 --> 01:36:18.199 when uh, when when I was burglarized, that gap was gone. 1428 01:36:19.239 --> 01:36:21.399 The people opened the thing and then it closed it again. 1429 01:36:21.840 --> 01:36:25.199 It doesn't matter what nobody will go down. I mean, 1430 01:36:25.880 --> 01:36:28.880 you know, it's maybe some really really good people, but 1431 01:36:28.960 --> 01:36:31.000 they don't have that much time to go lie down 1432 01:36:31.039 --> 01:36:33.720 on the floor and look at everything from the bottom right. 1433 01:36:34.439 --> 01:36:39.880 So I was pretty certain that this was okay. So eventually, 1434 01:36:40.119 --> 01:36:43.319 I uh, I resigned from the KGB. And the people 1435 01:36:43.319 --> 01:36:46.520 always ask, how do you resign from the KGB. There's 1436 01:36:46.520 --> 01:36:50.239 a famous line in James Bond movie that says nobody 1437 01:36:50.479 --> 01:36:54.880 resigns from the KGB. Well, I did, and I the 1438 01:36:54.960 --> 01:36:56.760 reason I got away with it. I sent in my 1439 01:36:56.920 --> 01:37:00.520 last letter and secret writing. I told him I well 1440 01:37:00.560 --> 01:37:04.079 aware that I'm in danger and I'm that that I 1441 01:37:04.199 --> 01:37:07.840 might be arrested. I would love to come home, but 1442 01:37:08.239 --> 01:37:12.760 I really can't. I have HIV AIDS, and in those 1443 01:37:12.840 --> 01:37:17.520 days that was a death sentence. And I knew because 1444 01:37:17.600 --> 01:37:21.840 I had conversations in Moscow with a couple of my 1445 01:37:21.880 --> 01:37:26.279 handless how they were so glad about AIDS having invaded 1446 01:37:27.079 --> 01:37:31.159 the United States as punishment for the for that that lifestyle, 1447 01:37:31.239 --> 01:37:37.680 that that sinful lifestyle that was ramped rampant in the US, 1448 01:37:37.720 --> 01:37:42.479 and they didn't want that deadly disease back in their country. 1449 01:37:42.560 --> 01:37:45.439 So they absolutely had They had no reason not to 1450 01:37:45.479 --> 01:37:50.359 believe me that they had absolutely no reason. Had they 1451 01:37:50.399 --> 01:37:52.800 known that I have a child, that would have been 1452 01:37:52.800 --> 01:37:56.840 a different story right, But none of that became known 1453 01:37:56.880 --> 01:38:00.760 to me until I reconnected with my German family. And 1454 01:38:00.800 --> 01:38:03.479 when I went back to Germany after I became a 1455 01:38:03.560 --> 01:38:10.880 US citizen, they did give my German family a portion 1456 01:38:10.960 --> 01:38:14.279 of my dollar savings and told him that I was dead. 1457 01:38:16.039 --> 01:38:24.479 And even today the German registry that keeps track of 1458 01:38:25.159 --> 01:38:31.279 births and marriages and divorces as Abrich Dietrich as passing 1459 01:38:31.359 --> 01:38:35.920 away in nineteen eighty eight. So I didn't know any 1460 01:38:35.960 --> 01:38:39.279 of that until I was able to go back to Germany. 1461 01:38:39.399 --> 01:38:44.840 And so the FBI didn't know for me about me 1462 01:38:45.640 --> 01:38:51.560 until about seven years after my resignation, and that was 1463 01:38:51.680 --> 01:38:57.199 because of a betrayal. There was a fellow, and you 1464 01:38:57.319 --> 01:38:59.960 must have heard about this fellow by the name of 1465 01:39:00.079 --> 01:39:01.840 Vasili Mitrocanu. 1466 01:39:02.560 --> 01:39:04.039 The name does not ring a bell to me. 1467 01:39:04.880 --> 01:39:08.000 Mister mitrocan was an archivist. He was actually at one 1468 01:39:08.039 --> 01:39:15.840 point the chief archivist in the in the the the library, 1469 01:39:15.880 --> 01:39:20.640 in the archive of the first Director at Espionage. So 1470 01:39:20.800 --> 01:39:26.840 he oversaw the move from uh the Lubyanka where the 1471 01:39:26.840 --> 01:39:31.000 original headquarters of the KGB was tu Yasinogo, the more 1472 01:39:31.079 --> 01:39:37.880 modern place outside of Moscow. And I believe the reason 1473 01:39:37.920 --> 01:39:43.319 that he started hating the Soviet system. He his son 1474 01:39:43.520 --> 01:39:45.920 was was very ill and the only place where he 1475 01:39:45.920 --> 01:39:49.000 could get treatment was someplace in the west, and they 1476 01:39:49.000 --> 01:39:50.920 don't they didn't allow him to go to the west, 1477 01:39:51.039 --> 01:39:55.039 to the west. And so he started thinking of how 1478 01:39:55.079 --> 01:39:59.760 he could damage that that hated organization, and he started 1479 01:39:59.800 --> 01:40:04.000 re this stuff, and then his hatred became was extended 1480 01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:08.399 to hating the entire system. And so what he did 1481 01:40:08.520 --> 01:40:12.760 over the years he smuggled out in small pieces, on 1482 01:40:12.880 --> 01:40:16.600 small pieces of hand handwritten notes with some bits and 1483 01:40:16.640 --> 01:40:21.199 pieces of information, and then he transcribed the stuff with 1484 01:40:21.279 --> 01:40:25.560 a typewriter and buried whatever the resulting pages in his 1485 01:40:25.640 --> 01:40:29.720 doctor and I don't know exactly what he started this, 1486 01:40:30.800 --> 01:40:33.279 Uh you you you can probably read up on this. 1487 01:40:35.319 --> 01:40:38.560 He co wrote a book with a British author called 1488 01:40:38.600 --> 01:40:41.199 The Sword in This then The Shield and the Shield. 1489 01:40:41.279 --> 01:40:44.479 I'm sorry, this is uh this is the bible for 1490 01:40:44.520 --> 01:40:47.920 anybody who wants to know what the espionage that the 1491 01:40:48.000 --> 01:40:55.000 KGB did, and that includes also active measures. So he 1492 01:40:55.319 --> 01:40:58.439 and when the Soviet Union finally fell apart, he felt 1493 01:40:58.479 --> 01:41:04.239 it was time to to ah reach out initially to 1494 01:41:04.359 --> 01:41:09.720 the American embassy uh and and and tell him what 1495 01:41:09.760 --> 01:41:15.039 but he had and the CIA officer who he talked 1496 01:41:15.079 --> 01:41:19.560 with told him, we're not interested because he thought, you know, 1497 01:41:19.640 --> 01:41:24.520 it was old stuff and radiat danglemo. That was a 1498 01:41:24.600 --> 01:41:30.359 career changing or ending move by that officer. So then 1499 01:41:30.399 --> 01:41:34.600 so the fellow went then to to uh the British 1500 01:41:34.600 --> 01:41:39.800 embassy and m I six was very welcoming, welcoming, and 1501 01:41:39.840 --> 01:41:47.520 that they managed to a get the stuff, the several 1502 01:41:48.359 --> 01:41:54.000 boxes of material out of this guy's datcha and get 1503 01:41:54.000 --> 01:41:59.439 it over to England where they eventually changed some of 1504 01:41:59.479 --> 01:42:03.840 the information that was irrelevant with the CIA. And that 1505 01:42:04.119 --> 01:42:09.760 is how the FBI was notified about my existence. And 1506 01:42:09.880 --> 01:42:14.279 all they knew was that there's a Jack Barski who 1507 01:42:14.359 --> 01:42:17.439 is an illegal who went to the US at a 1508 01:42:17.439 --> 01:42:20.920 certain time and he lives in the Northeast. Now that 1509 01:42:21.000 --> 01:42:24.159 all the FBI had to do is look for Jack Barski. 1510 01:42:24.199 --> 01:42:26.359 There are not so many and the one that the 1511 01:42:26.479 --> 01:42:31.119 social Security card at the age of I was in 1512 01:42:31.119 --> 01:42:35.800 my mid thirties must have been it. And then they 1513 01:42:35.800 --> 01:42:41.439 spent two and a half years watching me because they 1514 01:42:41.479 --> 01:42:45.800 knew that I was highly trained, because I survived like 1515 01:42:46.479 --> 01:42:51.720 all together seventeen years up to that point without being detected, 1516 01:42:53.359 --> 01:42:56.159 So they were afraid that I might be running a 1517 01:42:56.279 --> 01:43:01.319 moll or two. And and also they were afraid to 1518 01:43:01.359 --> 01:43:06.079 get too close because as a highly trained agent, they 1519 01:43:06.840 --> 01:43:11.720 they would have endangered that their their secrecy. You know, 1520 01:43:11.760 --> 01:43:15.479 I could have found out that that they're watching me. 1521 01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:18.680 You mean that the woman with the stroller and the 1522 01:43:18.720 --> 01:43:21.079 guy with the newspaper on the bench and the street 1523 01:43:21.079 --> 01:43:23.239 sweeper all putting their finger to their ear would have 1524 01:43:23.239 --> 01:43:23.760 given them away. 1525 01:43:25.680 --> 01:43:29.600 You bet. And again they they this was instinctively the 1526 01:43:29.680 --> 01:43:33.840 right thing to do because again, you know, because I 1527 01:43:33.880 --> 01:43:38.199 survived that long. And they may have caught others, and 1528 01:43:38.279 --> 01:43:40.760 they may may have been other illegals who were busted, 1529 01:43:41.439 --> 01:43:46.920 and none of them I'm aware of that, but there 1530 01:43:46.960 --> 01:43:49.800 may have been some that managed to flee or whatever, 1531 01:43:50.000 --> 01:43:53.079 or they were busted. I'm sorry they were busted and 1532 01:43:53.279 --> 01:43:58.039 wound up in and uh what is said when when 1533 01:43:58.079 --> 01:44:01.800 when they put criminals in the witness protection program? Right, 1534 01:44:02.560 --> 01:44:04.880 I'm getting a little tired. I'm talking too much. So 1535 01:44:06.119 --> 01:44:12.720 they did the right thing. And literally there's two things. 1536 01:44:13.119 --> 01:44:15.600 They bought the house next door. I had a house 1537 01:44:15.640 --> 01:44:18.479 in the country. And when the house next door, there 1538 01:44:18.560 --> 01:44:21.399 was only one house next door was available, they bought it, 1539 01:44:21.640 --> 01:44:24.319 and they put a couple of agents there to watch me, 1540 01:44:25.279 --> 01:44:27.359 and there was no indication that I was active. And 1541 01:44:27.399 --> 01:44:30.720 then they had another guy. The lead agent actually was 1542 01:44:30.800 --> 01:44:33.479 across the street on a hill and he pretended to 1543 01:44:33.520 --> 01:44:37.079 be a birdwatcher and he just watched me interact with 1544 01:44:37.079 --> 01:44:39.079 my children and he came to the conclusion that I 1545 01:44:39.079 --> 01:44:45.119 would cooperate and his judgment was correct, and that is 1546 01:44:45.159 --> 01:44:49.000 when they decided to say helone. 1547 01:44:50.520 --> 01:44:52.000 So how did that encounter go? 1548 01:44:53.000 --> 01:44:57.920 That was very well orchestrated, and it was a big 1549 01:44:57.960 --> 01:45:02.960 surprise for me. They he knew that I was commuting. 1550 01:45:03.640 --> 01:45:06.680 They had people, you know, watching me, but not following me, 1551 01:45:06.920 --> 01:45:12.279 so so they sort of knew, uh that I worked 1552 01:45:13.319 --> 01:45:16.359 in New New Jersey and I was commuting back and 1553 01:45:16.439 --> 01:45:22.520 forth between Pennsylvania New Jersey. So they rented themselves a 1554 01:45:22.560 --> 01:45:29.119 state trooper and he positioned himself at the at the 1555 01:45:29.279 --> 01:45:34.159 bridge over the Delaware and there's a there's a there's 1556 01:45:34.159 --> 01:45:36.359 a toll. This is a toll bridge where you in 1557 01:45:36.399 --> 01:45:38.560 those days you had to put a corner and to 1558 01:45:38.600 --> 01:45:41.920 get through that means you had to slow down. And 1559 01:45:42.039 --> 01:45:48.640 the police officer positioned himself and in uniform in front 1560 01:45:48.680 --> 01:45:50.960 of me, and he told me, told me, this is 1561 01:45:51.000 --> 01:45:55.840 a routine traffic stop. Would your police pull over? And 1562 01:45:55.880 --> 01:46:00.000 then he did something that should have like made me suspicions, 1563 01:46:00.560 --> 01:46:04.000 because routine traffic stops typically don't tell you to step 1564 01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:07.399 out of the vehicle. But I was like so unprepared, 1565 01:46:07.399 --> 01:46:10.239 and I was so not watchful anymore. I had forgotten 1566 01:46:10.239 --> 01:46:13.520 that I was once a spy. Okay, you know, like 1567 01:46:13.600 --> 01:46:17.279 so many years, you know, I had compartmentalized this away. 1568 01:46:17.319 --> 01:46:22.039 I didn't want to think about it, so stepping, I 1569 01:46:22.079 --> 01:46:24.840 stepped out of the vehicle, not thinking anything. And then 1570 01:46:24.880 --> 01:46:28.239 this again, for my right, comes another guy and he 1571 01:46:28.439 --> 01:46:33.560 was in civilian clothes, and before I could even think, 1572 01:46:33.600 --> 01:46:37.600 what's this, he slipped open an idea and that without 1573 01:46:37.600 --> 01:46:42.399 even looking at it, I knew this is a big problem. 1574 01:46:43.760 --> 01:46:48.640 And the agent, his name is Joe Riley. Everybody knows 1575 01:46:48.640 --> 01:46:51.439 about him because he wrote the afterword in my book. 1576 01:46:52.560 --> 01:46:58.560 So and we became really good friends. So the agent 1577 01:46:58.880 --> 01:47:03.159 told me much later that at that moment, my face 1578 01:47:03.279 --> 01:47:06.600 went white as the driven snow. It was all the 1579 01:47:06.640 --> 01:47:18.159 bloody exited my head. But it didn't take me very 1580 01:47:18.199 --> 01:47:21.920 long to recover. And that's also confirmed by him. So 1581 01:47:21.960 --> 01:47:27.319 he had me step into the car that his car, 1582 01:47:27.399 --> 01:47:30.560 that was parked at a place where I couldn't see 1583 01:47:30.560 --> 01:47:34.439 it coming coming into the bridge, and there was a 1584 01:47:34.479 --> 01:47:37.720 partner of his sitting in the back seat, and he 1585 01:47:37.800 --> 01:47:42.720 had a gun strapped to his ankle, very conspicuously. I 1586 01:47:42.720 --> 01:47:47.039 think there was a message. And man, I I knew 1587 01:47:47.079 --> 01:47:51.600 that I was in deep shit, and and I knew 1588 01:47:51.640 --> 01:47:53.600 that there was a good chance I would wind up 1589 01:47:53.600 --> 01:47:58.119 in jail, that my family, uh would be would be 1590 01:47:58.159 --> 01:48:00.760 moved out of the house, my ex wife would be deported, 1591 01:48:00.760 --> 01:48:03.800 and my kids would become wards of the state. What 1592 01:48:03.960 --> 01:48:10.000 a horrible outcome. And this is the instinct that I 1593 01:48:10.039 --> 01:48:13.439 didn't think about this, but I sort of instinctively knew 1594 01:48:13.439 --> 01:48:15.399 that I had to make these people like me, and 1595 01:48:15.439 --> 01:48:20.359 so I did a I told it a very very 1596 01:48:21.239 --> 01:48:23.399 innocent joke, and I asked him, so, what took you 1597 01:48:23.479 --> 01:48:27.640 so long? And you know that one of the guys 1598 01:48:27.640 --> 01:48:30.680 whose face I could see, couldn't suppress the smile. So 1599 01:48:30.720 --> 01:48:34.079 then they took me oh, And then I asked another question. 1600 01:48:34.159 --> 01:48:39.600 I asked Then I asked a question. I asked them, 1601 01:48:39.760 --> 01:48:46.279 am I under arrest? And they said no. And then 1602 01:48:46.359 --> 01:48:51.119 Joe Riley, the lead turned around and told me, this 1603 01:48:51.279 --> 01:48:55.399 may not be the worst day of your life, all right. 1604 01:48:55.479 --> 01:49:00.680 That gave me some hope, and that triggered me volunteering. 1605 01:49:00.720 --> 01:49:03.359 Once they took me to a motel where they had 1606 01:49:03.840 --> 01:49:08.520 it was extremely well guarded. They had rented one entire 1607 01:49:09.079 --> 01:49:15.359 uh the ground floor of an L shaped motel and 1608 01:49:15.520 --> 01:49:18.399 at both ends they had an armed guard. And they 1609 01:49:18.399 --> 01:49:23.479 put me in the middle of the floor, the ground floor, 1610 01:49:24.680 --> 01:49:29.000 and so probably that nobody could could listen in at 1611 01:49:29.079 --> 01:49:35.960 one end, who knows. And they did something that I 1612 01:49:35.960 --> 01:49:40.640 I realized right away was trickery. They had some some 1613 01:49:42.279 --> 01:49:49.520 items and on the walls where there were there was 1614 01:49:49.680 --> 01:49:54.399 there was written. There was written some information that like, 1615 01:49:54.600 --> 01:49:59.840 for instance, my my cover name, one of the convenience 1616 01:49:59.880 --> 01:50:02.479 of dress is that I used, and some other stuff. 1617 01:50:02.479 --> 01:50:06.079 And I realized all of that was from my very 1618 01:50:06.119 --> 01:50:12.159 early years, so that wouldn't have worked. But I just 1619 01:50:12.199 --> 01:50:16.479 started saying, listen here. I am fully aware that the 1620 01:50:16.640 --> 01:50:19.920 only way for me and my family, by the way, 1621 01:50:21.199 --> 01:50:25.439 come away with this from this with the least amount 1622 01:50:25.479 --> 01:50:29.439 of damage is if I cooperate fully, and I have 1623 01:50:29.560 --> 01:50:35.960 every intention to do so. So what could have been 1624 01:50:36.000 --> 01:50:39.359 an interrogation was more of a talk. You know. We 1625 01:50:39.399 --> 01:50:44.760 spent two hours, you know, back and forth talking and 1626 01:50:45.680 --> 01:50:49.560 I know that nowadays, I know that I come across 1627 01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:53.560 very authentic, even when I'm lying, though I still could 1628 01:50:53.600 --> 01:50:57.439 have lied, but I told him and it was very 1629 01:50:57.479 --> 01:50:59.760 believable and credible. You know. I want to say my 1630 01:50:59.800 --> 01:51:04.800 favor for crying out loud. And so they allowed me 1631 01:51:04.880 --> 01:51:08.840 to call my wife, who wasn't home because they told 1632 01:51:08.880 --> 01:51:12.159 me to tell her I'm delayed because of work. And 1633 01:51:12.199 --> 01:51:20.199 then they allowed me to go home, not without introducing 1634 01:51:20.239 --> 01:51:24.319 me to the head of the team that took care 1635 01:51:24.359 --> 01:51:28.640 of security, and he told me, if you think you 1636 01:51:28.720 --> 01:51:34.399 can run, you can't. We got every intersection covered. There's 1637 01:51:34.399 --> 01:51:38.800 no way out. You got to go home. And I said, 1638 01:51:38.840 --> 01:51:40.720 you know, okay, I didn't you know I had no 1639 01:51:40.760 --> 01:51:44.079 place to go. They didn't know that yet. And then 1640 01:51:44.119 --> 01:51:50.199 we spent about six or eight weeks debriefing, where I 1641 01:51:50.239 --> 01:51:53.680 met Joe Riley once or twice a week, and he 1642 01:51:53.760 --> 01:51:57.239 got to know me as well as anybody. He asked 1643 01:51:57.279 --> 01:52:01.560 me everything that could be found out about my life 1644 01:52:01.720 --> 01:52:09.159 from from like birth, like childhood, everything, everything, everything, because 1645 01:52:09.199 --> 01:52:13.520 they wanted to know. And I think in hindsight, it 1646 01:52:13.640 --> 01:52:18.279 was very very very important information for the for the 1647 01:52:18.399 --> 01:52:23.680 FBI to have, uh, to figure out, you know, other illegals. 1648 01:52:24.000 --> 01:52:27.319 In some way it was to me, I concluded it 1649 01:52:27.359 --> 01:52:31.079 was important because Riley got the accommendation from Louis Free, 1650 01:52:31.119 --> 01:52:33.479 the head of the FBI in those days, for a 1651 01:52:33.560 --> 01:52:37.159 job well done. And I couldn't give away any any 1652 01:52:37.199 --> 01:52:42.399 secrets other than what I did, Okay, Yeah. And the 1653 01:52:42.439 --> 01:52:45.399 other thing that was probably valuable that the knowledge that 1654 01:52:45.439 --> 01:52:49.039 I wasn't running an undercover agent and in you know, 1655 01:52:49.119 --> 01:52:52.000 a mod and in the US government, there's always good 1656 01:52:52.000 --> 01:52:56.880 to know, ah, you know, to find out something something 1657 01:52:56.920 --> 01:52:59.760 that you can't prove when you want to prove a 1658 01:52:59.800 --> 01:53:02.720 next if you can. So that was a little bit 1659 01:53:02.760 --> 01:53:06.319 of relief in that way. So and one other thing 1660 01:53:06.159 --> 01:53:09.039 I got to tell with you because you you are 1661 01:53:09.079 --> 01:53:14.560 familiar with all of this stuff before. And at one 1662 01:53:14.600 --> 01:53:18.800 point I was told there is a way that eventually 1663 01:53:18.840 --> 01:53:22.640 I'm going to get a green card and possibly even citizenship. 1664 01:53:22.840 --> 01:53:27.399 But that took several weeks, and during those several weeks, 1665 01:53:27.399 --> 01:53:31.079 I was still I was still very stressed. I was 1666 01:53:31.079 --> 01:53:33.079 still thinking, oh my god, oh my god, I don't know. 1667 01:53:33.119 --> 01:53:36.039 I don't know. But when when they eventually told me yes, 1668 01:53:36.079 --> 01:53:39.359 they but yes you will be able to get a 1669 01:53:39.359 --> 01:53:45.720 green card, but you must pass a polygraph. So and 1670 01:53:46.359 --> 01:53:48.880 I think you know that most people don't know this, 1671 01:53:49.039 --> 01:53:52.319 but you know in the movies polygraph tests or aggressive 1672 01:53:52.479 --> 01:53:55.000 questions and answers where you have a face ENLiGHT in 1673 01:53:55.039 --> 01:53:59.399 your face. No. The polygrapher who I was told was 1674 01:53:59.439 --> 01:54:05.720 the best in the Pennsylvania area. Uh, he was sitting 1675 01:54:05.760 --> 01:54:12.279 behind me and we the questions were told me ahead 1676 01:54:12.279 --> 01:54:17.119 of time, so I I we actually practiced this. We 1677 01:54:17.239 --> 01:54:21.920 practiced without the devices, the device connected to me. He 1678 01:54:21.960 --> 01:54:25.640 sits behind me and whispers the questions and I had 1679 01:54:25.640 --> 01:54:29.439 to whisper back yes or no. Nothing else was allowed. 1680 01:54:31.159 --> 01:54:35.000 So and then he wired me up and we did 1681 01:54:35.359 --> 01:54:36.560 the real one. 1682 01:54:36.920 --> 01:54:39.479 So it was it was just a formality. The FBI 1683 01:54:39.600 --> 01:54:41.279 already had the answers they wanted. 1684 01:54:42.279 --> 01:54:44.600 Uh No. And I tell you why it was not 1685 01:54:44.680 --> 01:54:49.840 a formality because when when he was done, he withdrew 1686 01:54:49.880 --> 01:54:54.199 into his uh his office, and we reviewed the results 1687 01:54:55.920 --> 01:54:58.840 and he showed me that the print out and he said, 1688 01:55:00.159 --> 01:55:03.800 there's something here where you didn't tell the truth that 1689 01:55:04.079 --> 01:55:06.279 I don't know, Maybe you didn't tell the truth, but 1690 01:55:07.039 --> 01:55:13.279 he's he's a spike, and you should that shouldn't be so. 1691 01:55:13.880 --> 01:55:16.399 And so I asked him what was the question? And 1692 01:55:16.399 --> 01:55:20.239 he told me the question I forgot because I forgot 1693 01:55:20.319 --> 01:55:23.479 what the question was. And I am thinking, I answered 1694 01:55:23.479 --> 01:55:28.600 the question honestly, you said, but it spiked. I cannot 1695 01:55:29.079 --> 01:55:35.479 I cannot certify that you told the truth. Period. And 1696 01:55:35.520 --> 01:55:39.920 then it occurred to me this question was phrased as 1697 01:55:39.960 --> 01:55:44.159 a negative, a double negative. And I said to him, 1698 01:55:44.239 --> 01:55:46.439 so maybe it's because of double negative, and it made 1699 01:55:46.479 --> 01:55:48.800 me think. He said, I don't know, let's let's just 1700 01:55:48.840 --> 01:55:53.640 do it again. I had to read take that question once. 1701 01:55:55.479 --> 01:55:59.359 And you know I I spoke at a convention of 1702 01:55:59.439 --> 01:56:02.560 poligraphy and I I told them, a couple of them. 1703 01:56:02.600 --> 01:56:05.119 I said, this was probably a control question for him. 1704 01:56:05.640 --> 01:56:08.760 I had to fail that test for all the answers 1705 01:56:08.800 --> 01:56:10.920 to be valid. I mean, I told me that's correct. 1706 01:56:13.119 --> 01:56:17.279 So so he already knew I I I told the truth, 1707 01:56:17.319 --> 01:56:20.840 but he had to prove it. Okay, you had to 1708 01:56:21.039 --> 01:56:24.399 you had to do it by the book. So and 1709 01:56:24.399 --> 01:56:29.920 that's uh. I I started my way on real citizenship, 1710 01:56:30.039 --> 01:56:35.279 operated with illegally and acquired documents for a number of years, 1711 01:56:35.720 --> 01:56:39.760 which really still put me in danger of of being 1712 01:56:39.800 --> 01:56:43.319 fired from the job by by you know, operating with 1713 01:56:43.479 --> 01:56:47.680 post documents, particularly because I I worked for a company 1714 01:56:47.720 --> 01:56:54.600 that owned the nuclear plant. Another another lack of UH 1715 01:56:55.199 --> 01:57:01.000 security when when listen this, this is just the really 1716 01:57:01.039 --> 01:57:07.560 bizarre and it's and I'm very annoyed. American security is 1717 01:57:08.479 --> 01:57:11.760 even today so full of holds. It bothers the heck 1718 01:57:11.800 --> 01:57:15.399 out of me. And nowadays it's all CyberSecure, or mostly cybersecurity. 1719 01:57:15.640 --> 01:57:18.960 So this is what happened. UH. They allowed me, the 1720 01:57:19.039 --> 01:57:24.479 FBI allowed me to retain the Jack Barski identity simply 1721 01:57:24.520 --> 01:57:29.920 because changing it would have would have been really really 1722 01:57:30.000 --> 01:57:33.479 tough on the family. We would have had to move 1723 01:57:33.520 --> 01:57:37.000 out of the area, mostly like witness protection program, and 1724 01:57:37.039 --> 01:57:40.239 I was already so well established in the US. They 1725 01:57:40.279 --> 01:57:44.359 figured to keep the idea. They asked the Jack Barsky's 1726 01:57:45.319 --> 01:57:47.560 mom and dad if that was okay with them. They 1727 01:57:47.560 --> 01:57:51.279 were still alive, and they said it's okay. The one 1728 01:57:51.319 --> 01:57:53.800 thing I had to do is change my birth year, 1729 01:57:54.319 --> 01:57:59.520 not my birth date at first, because if I had 1730 01:57:59.600 --> 01:58:03.920 kept the forty four birth date, I would have been 1731 01:58:03.960 --> 01:58:07.880 able to get Social Security before it was my time, 1732 01:58:07.920 --> 01:58:12.159 which would have had had the FBI helped me commit 1733 01:58:12.239 --> 01:58:12.800 a crime. Right. 1734 01:58:13.119 --> 01:58:16.199 I think that almost the most interesting part about this 1735 01:58:16.239 --> 01:58:19.840 whole story is that Jack Barsky starts off as your 1736 01:58:19.920 --> 01:58:23.279 cover identity, but then you have literally become that person 1737 01:58:23.319 --> 01:58:24.039 and that's your name. 1738 01:58:24.199 --> 01:58:27.920 Now. Yeah. So so now now what we came up with. 1739 01:58:28.560 --> 01:58:31.000 You know, if I if I changed the year, I 1740 01:58:31.079 --> 01:58:35.520 have to I have to quit my job because you know, 1741 01:58:35.880 --> 01:58:39.359 to get Social Security I had you know, I had 1742 01:58:39.399 --> 01:58:43.000 to have a record on file, right so to get 1743 01:58:43.079 --> 01:58:48.119 whatever for employment purposes. So they told we decided, let's 1744 01:58:48.199 --> 01:58:53.039 just change the year. So all right, this made me 1745 01:58:53.079 --> 01:58:56.760 really nervous because I had to go to tell HR 1746 01:58:57.159 --> 01:58:59.359 to change my birth year. I had to change it, right, 1747 01:58:59.680 --> 01:59:09.119 I was, I'm committing fraud, so she I said. I 1748 01:59:09.119 --> 01:59:11.079 said to her, I said, I need to talk to you. 1749 01:59:11.159 --> 01:59:14.680 I think there's something wrong with in my file. I 1750 01:59:14.720 --> 01:59:18.119 think my birthdate is wrong. Now, this is an h 1751 01:59:18.159 --> 01:59:21.680 operas who operates HR in a company that co owns 1752 01:59:21.680 --> 01:59:25.319 a nuclear plant, and she didn't realize that this is 1753 01:59:25.359 --> 01:59:30.760 a really interesting situation after having worked in that company 1754 01:59:30.760 --> 01:59:33.920 for a year. To figure out something wrong in the 1755 01:59:33.960 --> 01:59:38.399 files and it's my birthdate, you must be suspicious at 1756 01:59:38.399 --> 01:59:41.880 that point. All right, No, she wasn't. She pulled out 1757 01:59:41.920 --> 01:59:45.319 the file and she said, well does she seeing here? 1758 01:59:46.560 --> 01:59:51.119 I said, this is your birthday? I said, well, you 1759 01:59:51.199 --> 01:59:56.039 know here this is my driver's license. So how did 1760 01:59:56.039 --> 01:59:57.840 you do you sign this thing? And said, I don't 1761 01:59:57.880 --> 02:00:00.159 know what I was thinking. You know, I wasn't. I 1762 02:00:00.279 --> 02:00:03.479 wasn't clearheaded. I made a mistake. Sorry. So she went 1763 02:00:03.880 --> 02:00:09.279 and corrected to hear to nineteen forty nine without reporting 1764 02:00:09.439 --> 02:00:15.920 that incident. Wow, pretty bad to actually visited. I visited 1765 02:00:16.000 --> 02:00:22.800 that nuke. Okay, yeah, while I was still operating with 1766 02:00:23.319 --> 02:00:25.279 that with a false ID. 1767 02:00:26.560 --> 02:00:30.279 We do, Jack, We have some viewer questions, but real 1768 02:00:30.319 --> 02:00:32.840 quick before we get to those, because you had mentioned 1769 02:00:32.840 --> 02:00:34.760 before the show that you wanted to talk a little 1770 02:00:34.840 --> 02:00:38.359 bit about like what's going on in the US and 1771 02:00:38.399 --> 02:00:42.680 the world right now. As somebody who came from a 1772 02:00:43.119 --> 02:00:46.399 from from communist from the Soviet Union, can you can 1773 02:00:46.439 --> 02:00:50.720 you sort of opine and give us your your opinions. 1774 02:00:51.359 --> 02:00:55.720 Well, it looks like the entire world is not going 1775 02:00:56.079 --> 02:01:03.319 necessarily towards communism because even China is not a full 1776 02:01:03.359 --> 02:01:07.960 fledged communist country, because communism requires that the state owns 1777 02:01:08.000 --> 02:01:11.199 all the means of production, and that has been proven 1778 02:01:11.439 --> 02:01:15.159 to not really work very well. So it looks like 1779 02:01:15.239 --> 02:01:20.079 the entire world is going at different at a different 1780 02:01:20.119 --> 02:01:24.520 pace towards oligard key. I mean, we have we have 1781 02:01:24.600 --> 02:01:27.079 all the guards in this country. I mean with just 1782 02:01:27.239 --> 02:01:29.239 these are people who have so much power because they 1783 02:01:29.279 --> 02:01:32.960 have so much money, you know, particularly the folks who 1784 02:01:32.960 --> 02:01:37.520 are in an information technology they can they can hold 1785 02:01:37.560 --> 02:01:41.079 on to their power and they can influence what's going 1786 02:01:41.079 --> 02:01:45.560 on in the country. Some do and some don't. But 1787 02:01:45.640 --> 02:01:48.199 it's there's a danger there. But we have an oldi 1788 02:01:48.520 --> 02:01:53.159 functioning oligarchy in Russia, for sure. It's not when you know, 1789 02:01:53.199 --> 02:02:02.920 when I have a problem. When otherwise credible right wing 1790 02:02:03.039 --> 02:02:08.159 commentators talk about that there's communism coming in the United States, 1791 02:02:08.239 --> 02:02:11.640 this is an exaggeration. Just tell the truth that the 1792 02:02:11.760 --> 02:02:17.640 danger is really And I don't I don't like collectivism, 1793 02:02:17.920 --> 02:02:21.600 and I don't like elitism, and this is all associated 1794 02:02:21.640 --> 02:02:25.640 with an oligarchy. I can't stand it. I'm I've always 1795 02:02:25.640 --> 02:02:29.560 been an anti authoritarian. I've had to suppress that while 1796 02:02:29.640 --> 02:02:33.560 growing up and under communism. My my children are like that, 1797 02:02:33.920 --> 02:02:36.319 they wouldn't do very well. And you know, and and 1798 02:02:36.439 --> 02:02:40.720 if you if you if we don't get a get 1799 02:02:40.720 --> 02:02:44.640 a grip on AI, we we might wind up being 1800 02:02:44.680 --> 02:02:49.600 pets to artificial creative personas. So so all of this 1801 02:02:49.680 --> 02:02:55.119 is is a specter. I am. I am hopeful that 1802 02:02:55.319 --> 02:02:59.720 this can be reversed. I am hopeful that I am 1803 02:03:00.000 --> 02:03:02.720 personally surrounded with a lot of a lot of good, 1804 02:03:02.800 --> 02:03:07.760 good uh people who still know how to think and 1805 02:03:07.800 --> 02:03:12.800 who who still have common sense in them. And I 1806 02:03:12.840 --> 02:03:17.319 think what needs to happen is we need to uh 1807 02:03:17.600 --> 02:03:23.119 make some changes in our education system. And there there 1808 02:03:23.119 --> 02:03:28.760 are some some people who have influence who actually think that, 1809 02:03:28.840 --> 02:03:31.560 for instance, AI could make a difference and and so 1810 02:03:31.640 --> 02:03:38.279 we could help our students to learn how to think. Again, 1811 02:03:39.119 --> 02:03:42.640 having also said that, I'm currently working on a on 1812 02:03:42.680 --> 02:03:45.840 a on a project with gen Z and you know, 1813 02:03:45.920 --> 02:03:48.760 those those people still know how to think. Not not 1814 02:03:48.920 --> 02:03:52.199 all of gen z is like Lordie, don play play 1815 02:03:52.239 --> 02:03:56.039 with their cell phone all day. So so never give up, hope. 1816 02:03:56.159 --> 02:03:59.039 I don't you know, I think the doomstate is not 1817 02:03:59.359 --> 02:04:02.800 just around the honor if if in the United States 1818 02:04:02.920 --> 02:04:05.000 or in the in the Western world, you know, I 1819 02:04:05.479 --> 02:04:10.560 have knowledge in that in Germany the direction is very similar. 1820 02:04:12.880 --> 02:04:17.119 And but you know, if if if we give up hope, 1821 02:04:17.119 --> 02:04:21.680 then you know, then it's over. And and I think, 1822 02:04:21.920 --> 02:04:25.880 I think, if if this happens, it's not going to 1823 02:04:25.920 --> 02:04:28.319 happen in my lifetime of but it may happen while 1824 02:04:28.319 --> 02:04:33.319 my children are still alive. And I'm praying that this this, 1825 02:04:33.319 --> 02:04:38.800 this is, this is can be uh, it can be 1826 02:04:40.479 --> 02:04:46.560 I don't know, prevented. And and there have been prices 1827 02:04:47.279 --> 02:04:50.119 in the in the United States, particularly the Civil War, 1828 02:04:50.840 --> 02:04:54.319 that looked like that they're meant to be the end 1829 02:04:54.359 --> 02:04:57.720 of the world. And there was a time when communism 1830 02:04:57.800 --> 02:05:03.279 was quite popular and and the communistie did a lot 1831 02:05:03.279 --> 02:05:08.600 of damage. So so we are a country of survivors. 1832 02:05:09.439 --> 02:05:16.119 And I believe that the the the spirit of the 1833 02:05:16.119 --> 02:05:19.600 the folks that came to the United States, the adventure 1834 02:05:19.640 --> 02:05:24.319 of spirit is still alive, even even among illegal immigrants. 1835 02:05:24.680 --> 02:05:26.960 A lot of them come here because they want to 1836 02:05:27.000 --> 02:05:30.680 do something with their life. So I think if we 1837 02:05:30.720 --> 02:05:35.119 can tap into that spirit, we can prevent becoming pets 1838 02:05:35.560 --> 02:05:38.640 to artificially creative persons. 1839 02:05:38.000 --> 02:05:40.800 The out of curiosity, you know, like the fall of 1840 02:05:40.800 --> 02:05:43.520 the Soviet Union. Nobody saw that come, right, You mentioned 1841 02:05:43.680 --> 02:05:47.720 the you know that that happened. I think, yeah, I 1842 02:05:47.800 --> 02:05:50.800 in large, you know, for economic reasons, political reasons, but 1843 02:05:50.840 --> 02:05:52.159 also by the will of the people. 1844 02:05:52.800 --> 02:05:54.640 You know, if we look and I don't want to 1845 02:05:54.640 --> 02:05:55.399 get political, but. 1846 02:05:55.399 --> 02:05:57.319 If we look at like Trump his brand of author 1847 02:05:57.319 --> 02:06:00.239 attorneysm but also on the left we have more were 1848 02:06:00.560 --> 02:06:05.720 not individual authortare and moral authoritaism, forces the government and corporatism. 1849 02:06:06.039 --> 02:06:08.520 How do the people just like who, how do the 1850 02:06:08.600 --> 02:06:10.760 people ensure their future? 1851 02:06:10.840 --> 02:06:13.680 So it's not an individual or the government, but the people. 1852 02:06:15.279 --> 02:06:18.279 Well, I wish I had that recipe. Uh, you know, 1853 02:06:18.359 --> 02:06:21.760 it's it's it's a it's got to be a grassroots based, 1854 02:06:21.920 --> 02:06:28.239 grassroots based movement supported by ah people like Elon Musk 1855 02:06:30.319 --> 02:06:35.560 and and also people like uh. And he's a politician, 1856 02:06:35.640 --> 02:06:40.640 but he he's doing something that will appeal and that 1857 02:06:41.000 --> 02:06:44.159 he may be doing something if Trump gets elected, that 1858 02:06:44.319 --> 02:06:50.520 may appeal to people of all political stripes and and 1859 02:06:50.520 --> 02:06:55.039 and may bring health back into the country. Our country 1860 02:06:55.199 --> 02:07:01.239 is slowly dying from from bad nutrition and ill managed 1861 02:07:02.159 --> 02:07:06.439 medical services. And that's not that's not in question anymore. 1862 02:07:07.000 --> 02:07:09.359 I mean, you you know the data, we're the we're 1863 02:07:09.399 --> 02:07:13.159 the fattest country on the planet. You know, being fat 1864 02:07:13.239 --> 02:07:16.079 is not good to to to your health and not 1865 02:07:16.079 --> 02:07:19.039 not good for your life. The most most people that 1866 02:07:19.119 --> 02:07:25.800 died from COVID were overweight. So that's there are things. 1867 02:07:25.880 --> 02:07:29.439 And also the the the trend, the the forced uh 1868 02:07:30.000 --> 02:07:36.159 you know, mutilation of children without parental consent is another 1869 02:07:36.199 --> 02:07:39.720 thing that pretty much unites the country. The majority of people, 1870 02:07:39.760 --> 02:07:43.319 no matter what political party they belong to or whether 1871 02:07:43.359 --> 02:07:49.199 they're there are independent such as I am can't stand this. 1872 02:07:49.840 --> 02:07:51.920 So so there are still things that unite us that 1873 02:07:52.000 --> 02:07:55.840 that that that provide some of the glue that that 1874 02:07:56.319 --> 02:08:00.439 some commentators things I think has disappeared. And I I'm 1875 02:08:00.439 --> 02:08:04.840 not I'm not one of those doomsayers. That's just my opinion. 1876 02:08:04.880 --> 02:08:08.720 Now, I think that you probably have better insight than. 1877 02:08:10.079 --> 02:08:12.319 You know, ninety nine percent of the people in the 1878 02:08:12.439 --> 02:08:16.039 US in terms of seeing that kind of system because 1879 02:08:16.079 --> 02:08:18.880 even like you mentioned, like the KGB agent that picked 1880 02:08:18.920 --> 02:08:22.840 you up in the limousine, like the idea of communism 1881 02:08:22.960 --> 02:08:25.520 or the idea of the everything always being equal, like 1882 02:08:26.159 --> 02:08:28.520 it doesn't exist, it never exists. 1883 02:08:29.279 --> 02:08:32.359 Yeah, yeah, well you know, yes, but what it's worth. 1884 02:08:32.399 --> 02:08:35.920 But you know, don't ever call me an expert in this, 1885 02:08:36.239 --> 02:08:40.000 because once you take on the expert label, you have 1886 02:08:40.039 --> 02:08:43.439 to make things up because experts are supposed to have 1887 02:08:43.479 --> 02:08:46.520 an opinion about everything. And I have no problem saying 1888 02:08:47.279 --> 02:08:49.920 answering a question, but I don't know you have not 1889 02:08:50.079 --> 02:08:51.640 answered a question like that yet. 1890 02:08:52.920 --> 02:08:56.319 Yeah, so, Chief Justice Keith, thank you very much. We 1891 02:08:56.399 --> 02:08:57.000 appreciate it. 1892 02:08:57.319 --> 02:09:00.840 Mister Barski, what was the most memorable and or funny 1893 02:09:00.880 --> 02:09:04.640 time while going through KGB schooling? Whether that will be 1894 02:09:04.760 --> 02:09:07.880 operational or going through training? Also an honest take on 1895 02:09:07.960 --> 02:09:09.079 Russian stereotypes? 1896 02:09:10.439 --> 02:09:18.760 The most funny time? Well, you know, funny in a 1897 02:09:18.880 --> 02:09:25.279 sense when when I messed up, Well, that's in hindsight 1898 02:09:26.279 --> 02:09:31.840 a funny. I can't really recall funny. This is all 1899 02:09:31.880 --> 02:09:34.760 when I look back and say, my god, I can 1900 02:09:34.800 --> 02:09:37.880 now relate all the mistakes that they made, and I 1901 02:09:38.000 --> 02:09:41.079 made that that you know, can be looked at as 1902 02:09:41.119 --> 02:09:48.159 a joke, but funny while it was operational. Let me 1903 02:09:48.199 --> 02:09:51.920 thank you. Now you asked me a question I can't answer. 1904 02:09:53.640 --> 02:09:54.119 It's okay. 1905 02:09:54.279 --> 02:09:57.079 Yeah, well we'll move on and then if something comes 1906 02:09:57.079 --> 02:09:59.560 to you while we're talking about other stuff, just chime in. 1907 02:10:00.520 --> 02:10:01.720 Taylor, thank you very much. 1908 02:10:02.640 --> 02:10:07.039 What's your thoughts on George uh, Kissa Walter and the 1909 02:10:07.119 --> 02:10:08.119 recruitment at pop Off? 1910 02:10:10.720 --> 02:10:13.159 So now you ask me another question that I don't 1911 02:10:13.159 --> 02:10:14.279 care to answer. Who's pop up? 1912 02:10:15.760 --> 02:10:16.199 I don't know. 1913 02:10:17.199 --> 02:10:22.600 Yeah, uh m Corbyn, thank you very much. Uh in 1914 02:10:22.640 --> 02:10:25.279 what ways were the KGB's training better than this the 1915 02:10:25.359 --> 02:10:31.000 Stazzi's also, any thoughts on the tally your chinkos returned 1916 02:10:31.000 --> 02:10:31.479 to Russia? 1917 02:10:33.960 --> 02:10:38.199 Uh? Yu Chenko is an interesting situation. Uh this is 1918 02:10:38.319 --> 02:10:43.199 this has not been resolved. And you know he's the 1919 02:10:43.199 --> 02:10:48.239 one who escaped his uh two C I A guards right, 1920 02:10:51.359 --> 02:10:55.600 I don't, I can't. Yes, yes he is. And I 1921 02:10:55.640 --> 02:10:59.239 know I actually am friends with a guy who who 1922 02:10:59.399 --> 02:11:04.960 was working for and n C I s in in Italy, 1923 02:11:05.119 --> 02:11:09.920 who was the first Westerners that Uchenko actually walked with. 1924 02:11:13.319 --> 02:11:16.720 I I would guess that he was most likely a dangle. 1925 02:11:17.520 --> 02:11:21.319 And and you know the fact that that he now 1926 02:11:21.359 --> 02:11:24.079 there's some speculation he wanted to go to the United 1927 02:11:24.079 --> 02:11:27.479 States because he wanted to connect with his old flame. 1928 02:11:28.279 --> 02:11:30.680 That is not proven, you know, And when he found 1929 02:11:30.720 --> 02:11:32.439 out that the flame didn't want to have anything to 1930 02:11:32.479 --> 02:11:37.000 do with him, he just he just disappeared. I don't know. 1931 02:11:37.119 --> 02:11:39.680 I don't know how he could have disappeared like that 1932 02:11:39.720 --> 02:11:41.760 and wound wound up back in Moscow. He had to 1933 02:11:41.800 --> 02:11:42.840 have somebody help him. 1934 02:11:44.479 --> 02:11:46.079 Uh, and corporn, thank you very much. 1935 02:11:46.279 --> 02:11:49.560 How many high ranking officials used the Illegals program to stealer, 1936 02:11:49.680 --> 02:11:50.359 longer money? 1937 02:11:52.319 --> 02:11:55.760 How many high ranking officials? Say that again? Because I 1938 02:11:55.840 --> 02:11:59.079 wasn't aware that that you that you're actually taking. That's 1939 02:11:59.079 --> 02:12:02.239 why I asked you questions back that you're taking questions 1940 02:12:02.239 --> 02:12:03.399 from the from the listeners. 1941 02:12:03.399 --> 02:12:06.640 So say say it again, please, how many high ranking 1942 02:12:07.119 --> 02:12:10.159 officials I assume it means like Russian officials use the 1943 02:12:10.199 --> 02:12:14.760 Illegals to program to steal or launder money. 1944 02:12:15.760 --> 02:12:19.079 That's a very good question because it's very easy to 1945 02:12:19.119 --> 02:12:23.680 do so, like for instance, you know when I when 1946 02:12:23.720 --> 02:12:27.800 they when when some guy because in espionage, cash is king, right, 1947 02:12:28.720 --> 02:12:31.479 So when when you have a death drop operation and 1948 02:12:31.560 --> 02:12:35.479 you and they never told me how much money I 1949 02:12:35.600 --> 02:12:39.439 was getting. I got enough money to travel to Moscow. 1950 02:12:39.960 --> 02:12:42.800 So maybe there was ten thousand dollars and I found 1951 02:12:42.840 --> 02:12:47.560 only five thousand. Okay, there's no somebody could have taken 1952 02:12:47.600 --> 02:12:52.640 that money. The guy who made the container obviously. Uh. 1953 02:12:53.039 --> 02:12:56.119 And you know when when I told them to hand 1954 02:12:56.840 --> 02:13:01.119 my savings to my family, I guarantee you the courier 1955 02:13:01.239 --> 02:13:03.439 took some of that money because my family didn't have 1956 02:13:03.439 --> 02:13:07.000 a clue how much think Yeah, now can you do 1957 02:13:08.119 --> 02:13:15.119 a lot of stealing that way? You know illegal the 1958 02:13:15.159 --> 02:13:21.119 way I know illegal existence didn't handle a lot of money. 1959 02:13:21.920 --> 02:13:27.720 So now if they, like, for instance, if I had 1960 02:13:27.840 --> 02:13:30.840 to this is going to be now interesting. If I 1961 02:13:30.920 --> 02:13:39.279 had to interact with Aims or the other fellow and 1962 02:13:39.960 --> 02:13:45.319 give them money, I could have stolen some or the 1963 02:13:45.399 --> 02:13:47.960 person who handed it to me could have stolen some. 1964 02:13:48.399 --> 02:13:51.439 But you know it's it's it's massive money laundering is 1965 02:13:51.680 --> 02:13:55.359 not possible that way. It's too awkward and not enough 1966 02:13:55.399 --> 02:13:56.239 money involved. 1967 02:13:59.560 --> 02:14:08.199 Or thank you very much, Spaciba Rgi, thank you, mister Barcy. 1968 02:14:08.199 --> 02:14:11.960 What do you think about communism today? And why do 1969 02:14:12.079 --> 02:14:16.760 so many young people nowadays favor this ideology? And he 1970 02:14:16.880 --> 02:14:18.560 puts some stuff in German in there that I'm not 1971 02:14:18.560 --> 02:14:20.680 even going to attempt to say, but that is one 1972 02:14:20.680 --> 02:14:23.720 of the things we see that in common with like 1973 02:14:24.279 --> 02:14:26.720 kid with not super common, but with kids today it's 1974 02:14:26.800 --> 02:14:29.520 like communism works, it just hasn't been done right. 1975 02:14:30.800 --> 02:14:34.239 Yeah, yeah, I've heard this over and over again. So 1976 02:14:34.920 --> 02:14:37.960 he's the thing. I'm glad you asked that question because 1977 02:14:38.000 --> 02:14:42.920 I'm perfectly prepared to answer that question. In the history 1978 02:14:45.079 --> 02:14:51.800 the world, there have been twenty seven communists last socialist revolutions. 1979 02:14:52.239 --> 02:14:56.359 Some of them started out honest, with honest leaders. I 1980 02:14:56.479 --> 02:15:00.560 believe that Fidel Castro was an honest communist. Guess what, 1981 02:15:00.760 --> 02:15:05.279 every one of them wound out in a dictatorship. Because 1982 02:15:05.319 --> 02:15:08.880 a revolution means you have to use violent means you 1983 02:15:09.439 --> 02:15:13.159 can't you can't get to power in a democratic way. 1984 02:15:13.800 --> 02:15:17.119 So once you start with violence, how do you protect 1985 02:15:17.439 --> 02:15:19.840 the power that you have gained? And you still do 1986 02:15:19.920 --> 02:15:23.199 this with with good intention, you need to stay in power. 1987 02:15:23.279 --> 02:15:29.239 Like the revolution in October revolution in Russia was followed 1988 02:15:29.239 --> 02:15:34.000 by the Red This was violence. So you you build 1989 02:15:34.079 --> 02:15:40.720 up a structure that needs to be maintained violence, which 1990 02:15:40.720 --> 02:15:45.920 is a dictatorship. Every communist state that started has become 1991 02:15:46.600 --> 02:15:50.760 has become some kind of a dictatorship. Now, second part 1992 02:15:50.800 --> 02:15:55.119 of the question, so why is communism still so attractive 1993 02:15:56.079 --> 02:16:03.199 Because there's this romantic notion that all men are good, 1994 02:16:04.119 --> 02:16:07.520 All men and women were all born and it's innocent 1995 02:16:07.560 --> 02:16:10.520 little babies. And the only reason that we go bad 1996 02:16:10.680 --> 02:16:16.279 is because we're we are growing up in in bad circumstances, 1997 02:16:16.920 --> 02:16:22.840 in poverty and and and being exploited, and all this stuff. 1998 02:16:22.920 --> 02:16:28.760 So that's that turns some of us bad. Well, that's 1999 02:16:29.079 --> 02:16:35.719 a romantic notion. There there are people who are born bad. 2000 02:16:36.319 --> 02:16:41.600 A sociopath doesn't evolve out of there's there's bad genetics, 2001 02:16:42.280 --> 02:16:46.680 and there's people who turn bad. If you look at 2002 02:16:46.719 --> 02:16:50.879 the history of mankind, there was not a single century 2003 02:16:50.959 --> 02:16:53.520 whether when men didn't do evil things to other men. 2004 02:16:54.520 --> 02:16:56.959 So and and. 2005 02:16:56.879 --> 02:17:01.719 So even in classless societies, you know, interestingly enough. 2006 02:17:02.360 --> 02:17:06.479 Yes, and and so that romantic notion it is is 2007 02:17:06.559 --> 02:17:09.639 what it is, is very attractive. Can't we all get 2008 02:17:09.680 --> 02:17:11.719 a law for crying out loud? All we have to 2009 02:17:11.719 --> 02:17:16.639 do is, like you know, make make the outcome equal. Well, 2010 02:17:17.399 --> 02:17:20.120 that doesn't work, but because there will be some people 2011 02:17:20.120 --> 02:17:24.280 who will take advantage of that opportunity. Because there's always 2012 02:17:24.319 --> 02:17:27.799 evil around, you cannot And this is what the the 2013 02:17:27.799 --> 02:17:33.280 the Constitution is is the most brilliant document with regard 2014 02:17:33.319 --> 02:17:36.399 to government that that I've ever been exposed to. You 2015 02:17:36.479 --> 02:17:41.280 cannot eradicate evil. You can manage it, but you cannot 2016 02:17:41.319 --> 02:17:43.520 get rid of it. And so that is that is 2017 02:17:43.520 --> 02:17:48.040 why communism is is a non starter. It won't work. 2018 02:17:48.799 --> 02:17:51.799 Yeah, it's just you made me think of animal farm 2019 02:17:51.840 --> 02:17:54.399 and the idea that all animals equal, but some are 2020 02:17:54.440 --> 02:17:57.360 more equal than others like that will always happen. 2021 02:17:57.120 --> 02:18:01.360 Right exactly. I forgot that once read that book. Yeah, 2022 02:18:01.920 --> 02:18:07.440 it was very it was very much anticipating the kind 2023 02:18:07.440 --> 02:18:09.280 of stuff that we're that we're seeing now and that 2024 02:18:09.280 --> 02:18:10.079 we're talking about. 2025 02:18:12.040 --> 02:18:13.319 And Corbyn, thanks you very much. 2026 02:18:13.840 --> 02:18:19.639 Uh would you say that kryptocratic oligarchys are a trend? 2027 02:18:21.239 --> 02:18:24.959 Yeah, I think I already stated that it is a trend. 2028 02:18:25.479 --> 02:18:29.040 It is a trend because it's sort of combined some 2029 02:18:29.079 --> 02:18:35.159 features of capitalism. Uh, there's some competition, there's you know, 2030 02:18:35.239 --> 02:18:39.040 you you you need to perform to to do something 2031 02:18:40.079 --> 02:18:45.520 pretty well and get paid well. And yet the the 2032 02:18:45.559 --> 02:18:51.000 decision makers are a couple of dozen maybe you have 2033 02:18:51.280 --> 02:18:54.360 plus a handful and maybe one guy at the top, 2034 02:18:54.440 --> 02:18:59.840 like like in China and in Russia and also in Iran. Absolutely. Uh, 2035 02:19:00.040 --> 02:19:05.000 you know, any any state where everything is hierarchical doesn't 2036 02:19:05.000 --> 02:19:08.680 function very well. So you need to have some uh 2037 02:19:09.520 --> 02:19:14.399 some cooperation of the very wealthy knowing that they need 2038 02:19:14.440 --> 02:19:18.159 to get along to some degree or else there's going 2039 02:19:18.239 --> 02:19:20.719 to be just one ruler and all them damn things 2040 02:19:20.760 --> 02:19:21.440 will fall apart. 2041 02:19:22.040 --> 02:19:24.920 Outside of outside of AI what do you and other 2042 02:19:25.079 --> 02:19:28.120 tech trends, what do you think of things like Google 2043 02:19:28.159 --> 02:19:33.440 where they basically control the information or tell people where 2044 02:19:33.479 --> 02:19:36.440 the information is that they're looking for, and based on 2045 02:19:36.520 --> 02:19:40.280 whatever their political leanings are or whatever, they can decide 2046 02:19:40.319 --> 02:19:42.200 what information people have had access to. 2047 02:19:43.319 --> 02:19:48.319 Yeah, and I already said early on when I've talked 2048 02:19:48.319 --> 02:19:52.000 about oligarchs in the US, you know the folks that 2049 02:19:52.000 --> 02:19:57.479 that aren't that the running the big information technology companies, uh, 2050 02:19:58.200 --> 02:20:09.319 you know micro so to Google, Oracle and Facebook. So 2051 02:20:09.520 --> 02:20:17.719 far they have tremendous power and the only the only 2052 02:20:17.920 --> 02:20:21.079 way that this I don't even know how you can 2053 02:20:21.239 --> 02:20:25.920 like supervise them, because they have all the means to 2054 02:20:26.719 --> 02:20:30.680 evade that supervision in some way. Uh. This is where 2055 02:20:31.760 --> 02:20:35.920 X the X Twitter comes along, where there is no 2056 02:20:36.559 --> 02:20:42.879 censoring and where you can actually go in and and 2057 02:20:42.879 --> 02:20:47.639 and engage in free speech and not be silenced. 2058 02:20:47.719 --> 02:20:50.760 But but you know they are censoring. Like if Pakistan 2059 02:20:50.879 --> 02:20:53.520 comes to them and says we don't like this content, 2060 02:20:53.600 --> 02:20:55.479 take it off your website, they're doing it. 2061 02:20:55.520 --> 02:21:00.000 Oh okay, sure, yeah, well this this is a game, 2062 02:21:00.040 --> 02:21:05.239 and there's this you know, there's a well meaning elitism 2063 02:21:05.879 --> 02:21:10.079 sometimes underneath you know, I know better than you guys, 2064 02:21:10.639 --> 02:21:13.799 And I know how how how this country should go 2065 02:21:13.920 --> 02:21:17.639 forward for everybody to do well. I'm not thinking they're 2066 02:21:17.680 --> 02:21:20.399 all evil, not at all, right, they just know better, 2067 02:21:20.680 --> 02:21:25.920 right and and and that's uh, it's very annoying. I'm 2068 02:21:25.920 --> 02:21:28.639 a pretty smart guy and I don't know better. Yeah. 2069 02:21:28.760 --> 02:21:30.040 Yeah, anything else for Jack? 2070 02:21:30.120 --> 02:21:31.639 That's it from chat? Did we? 2071 02:21:31.680 --> 02:21:33.959 Oh? And uh? 2072 02:21:34.200 --> 02:21:39.159 Samy said that the message was just Samy said that 2073 02:21:39.159 --> 02:21:43.280 the message was well wishes from Germany. D. Was there 2074 02:21:43.319 --> 02:21:44.120 anything on Patreon? 2075 02:21:45.319 --> 02:21:45.559 Jack? 2076 02:21:45.799 --> 02:21:48.360 Anything else before we get going for tonight? Is there 2077 02:21:48.360 --> 02:21:50.680 anything else you want to tell people about anything that 2078 02:21:50.719 --> 02:21:53.440 you have to promote or anything that we failed to 2079 02:21:53.520 --> 02:21:54.799 ask that you regular. 2080 02:21:54.639 --> 02:21:58.920 Giving me that opportunity. First of all, I was wondering 2081 02:21:59.079 --> 02:22:01.760 if I could get you know, I'm I'm a sleeper 2082 02:22:01.760 --> 02:22:04.399 who doesn't sleep well. If I could could get a 2083 02:22:05.120 --> 02:22:10.520 free mattress from from that ghost bet if I, uh, 2084 02:22:10.680 --> 02:22:14.520 you know, do use my social media to make some 2085 02:22:14.559 --> 02:22:15.559 propaganda for them? 2086 02:22:15.680 --> 02:22:18.959 Yeah, send it out man, We might be able to 2087 02:22:19.239 --> 02:22:19.920 make that connection. 2088 02:22:20.000 --> 02:22:20.559 Yeah. 2089 02:22:20.639 --> 02:22:22.360 Yeah, D will reach out to them for you. 2090 02:22:23.840 --> 02:22:26.600 I'm honestly, I'm not exaggerating. I don't have the money 2091 02:22:26.680 --> 02:22:30.000 right now to buy a mattress, and I need one desperately, 2092 02:22:30.200 --> 02:22:34.280 and I know that when I'm I'm in pain, uh 2093 02:22:34.920 --> 02:22:38.479 only in the morning. During the day, I'm not because 2094 02:22:38.680 --> 02:22:41.120 because I'm gonna love your mattress, that's no more. 2095 02:22:41.639 --> 02:22:43.360 The sleeper rangent needs to sleep. 2096 02:22:43.559 --> 02:22:47.159 I think you like more firm mattresses or softermatter because 2097 02:22:47.159 --> 02:22:50.159 software mattresses actually make put me in more pain. I 2098 02:22:50.159 --> 02:22:53.520 think because they don't support like my arthritis and stuff 2099 02:22:53.520 --> 02:22:54.639 like like my joints and. 2100 02:22:54.600 --> 02:22:58.879 Things like that. I would say moderately firm, not like 2101 02:22:59.280 --> 02:23:00.280 not like a board. 2102 02:23:00.559 --> 02:23:04.200 Yeah yeah, not like a Japanese to Tommy. 2103 02:23:03.920 --> 02:23:05.879 Matter or anything like that, anything else so that they 2104 02:23:05.879 --> 02:23:06.719 go sped jack. 2105 02:23:07.479 --> 02:23:10.159 Yeah. And so some of the answers that I gave 2106 02:23:10.239 --> 02:23:13.200 you have something to do with I had. I had 2107 02:23:13.319 --> 02:23:15.680 thought about all of these issues for quite a while. 2108 02:23:16.360 --> 02:23:20.479 I'm just in the process of of editing my master class, 2109 02:23:21.719 --> 02:23:27.000 which is uh that goes under the name Practical Spycology 2110 02:23:29.559 --> 02:23:31.040 Get its Psychology. 2111 02:23:31.319 --> 02:23:32.239 Yeah, that's awesome. 2112 02:23:33.040 --> 02:23:35.239 And this master class is going to be given away 2113 02:23:35.280 --> 02:23:41.959 as part of a Spychology project, which which involves gathering 2114 02:23:41.959 --> 02:23:46.920 a community and working with that community under the heading 2115 02:23:47.000 --> 02:23:49.799 of let's figure out how how we can live our 2116 02:23:49.840 --> 02:23:55.040 best lives. Uh. And I will be the facilitator on 2117 02:23:55.120 --> 02:23:57.399 the head of the community. And there's going to be 2118 02:23:57.440 --> 02:23:59.639 a whole lot of things happening over time as we 2119 02:23:59.680 --> 02:24:03.559 grow the community. But but I won't be the teacher. 2120 02:24:03.600 --> 02:24:06.440 I won't be the professor. I won't lecture people because 2121 02:24:06.479 --> 02:24:10.760 I'm still my My most important instruments are my eyes 2122 02:24:10.799 --> 02:24:14.280 and my ears, which is taking in information and and 2123 02:24:14.360 --> 02:24:17.280 But but based on my background, I I will I 2124 02:24:17.280 --> 02:24:20.559 would make a really good facilitator. And you know this 2125 02:24:20.719 --> 02:24:23.079 is this is the reason I get up in the 2126 02:24:23.120 --> 02:24:25.520 morning these days. This is my purpose. I want to 2127 02:24:25.840 --> 02:24:29.440 I have mentoring and tutoring in my blood. My parents 2128 02:24:29.440 --> 02:24:31.799 were both teachers. I was going to be a professor 2129 02:24:32.159 --> 02:24:36.399 I have. I have mentored graduate students in the US 2130 02:24:37.120 --> 02:24:39.879 and and I see if I can make a difference 2131 02:24:40.440 --> 02:24:43.680 with as many people as possible and and help my 2132 02:24:44.280 --> 02:24:48.719 fourteen year old daughter too to get a good start 2133 02:24:48.760 --> 02:24:49.239 in life. 2134 02:24:49.319 --> 02:24:52.200 Yes, where where can people go to find this class? 2135 02:24:52.239 --> 02:24:53.159 When it's when it's. 2136 02:24:53.239 --> 02:24:56.239 Released, it's it will it will be on social media. 2137 02:24:56.280 --> 02:24:57.719 We we will run an ad campaign. 2138 02:24:57.879 --> 02:25:01.040 But tell tell our tell the folk out here listening, like, 2139 02:25:01.120 --> 02:25:02.639 is there a website or site, and and. 2140 02:25:02.600 --> 02:25:04.120 What are your social media handles? 2141 02:25:04.680 --> 02:25:07.719 No, it's it's we're gonna advertise on social media. Okay, 2142 02:25:07.760 --> 02:25:11.079 it's gonna social media. You find me on LinkedIn, okay, 2143 02:25:11.200 --> 02:25:14.159 find that. We will be on Facebook, we will be 2144 02:25:14.399 --> 02:25:19.360 on Instagram, we will be on TikTok, not on X. 2145 02:25:20.319 --> 02:25:23.239 That's the decision that my team has made. They have 2146 02:25:23.360 --> 02:25:27.920 experience and I don't know why, and I didn't answer, 2147 02:25:27.959 --> 02:25:31.239 but we're we're going to be on old social media. Uh. 2148 02:25:31.360 --> 02:25:34.840 And the announcement will and all you have to be 2149 02:25:34.920 --> 02:25:38.120 on is on social media. There's will be paid advertisements 2150 02:25:38.120 --> 02:25:42.040 as well. You can also if you search for me, 2151 02:25:42.120 --> 02:25:46.200 you're gonna Google my name and something in Google will 2152 02:25:46.239 --> 02:25:50.399 show up because on a daily basis, Google sends me 2153 02:25:50.479 --> 02:25:54.559 information about yep, for instance, me being on your show, yeah, 2154 02:25:54.719 --> 02:25:57.520 and and that kind of stuff. So it's jack. 2155 02:25:57.600 --> 02:26:00.399 When you guys launch it, let us know what what 2156 02:26:00.559 --> 02:26:02.520 all the handles are and we'll plug them on the 2157 02:26:02.559 --> 02:26:03.440 show for you. 2158 02:26:03.600 --> 02:26:04.399 Oh that's awesome. 2159 02:26:04.639 --> 02:26:05.479 Yeah. 2160 02:26:04.959 --> 02:26:09.079 I also want to remind our listeners about your memoir 2161 02:26:09.319 --> 02:26:12.680 deep Cover, which is available now. People can go out 2162 02:26:12.680 --> 02:26:15.600 and find it and find out lots more about you 2163 02:26:15.680 --> 02:26:17.520 and your experiences. 2164 02:26:17.040 --> 02:26:20.479 And there's something else out there that gives you a shortcut. 2165 02:26:21.040 --> 02:26:23.639 By the way, there's my first interview in the US 2166 02:26:23.760 --> 02:26:26.239 was done by seeing a sixty minutes that can be 2167 02:26:26.280 --> 02:26:32.799 found on on on YouTube by just typing in sixty 2168 02:26:32.799 --> 02:26:36.319 minutes and barski, okay, and you get to that. But 2169 02:26:36.399 --> 02:26:41.920 there's also a I call it audio drama. It's a 2170 02:26:42.200 --> 02:26:49.559 it's like a like nonfiction, a documentary without without pictures 2171 02:26:50.159 --> 02:26:55.120 that's out there on streaming media, Spotify, Apple Music, whatever. 2172 02:26:55.399 --> 02:26:56.360 It's called The Agent. 2173 02:26:56.760 --> 02:26:57.079 Okay. 2174 02:26:57.799 --> 02:27:01.079 If you look for the Agent, you need you need 2175 02:27:01.120 --> 02:27:09.319 to add entertainment. No, I hold it, not entertainment you 2176 02:27:09.360 --> 02:27:11.920 need you just need to add my name to it, okay, 2177 02:27:12.120 --> 02:27:15.680 because otherwise you find too many things that are that 2178 02:27:15.799 --> 02:27:19.280 have agents in their name. But The Agent is a 2179 02:27:19.479 --> 02:27:26.639 thirteen episodes production that was extremely well made cool. Its 2180 02:27:26.760 --> 02:27:29.200 value is that it has not just interviews with me, 2181 02:27:29.920 --> 02:27:34.000 but it also has interviews with the lead agent who 2182 02:27:34.120 --> 02:27:38.440 investigated me, with an FBI agent who tells me, who 2183 02:27:38.520 --> 02:27:41.200 tells folks what it was like to be on the op. 2184 02:27:41.399 --> 02:27:44.280 Fascinating. That sounds that sounds really good. 2185 02:27:45.000 --> 02:27:47.760 Oh yeah, it's it's excellent. And you know it also 2186 02:27:47.799 --> 02:27:51.200 has an interview with a love interest that my publisher 2187 02:27:52.360 --> 02:27:54.879 told me to write down because there were too many women. 2188 02:27:58.399 --> 02:28:01.479 But she, but she tells, he tells everybody who listens 2189 02:28:01.479 --> 02:28:04.840 that we we've fell instantly in love with each other. 2190 02:28:04.879 --> 02:28:07.000 And that's the reason I learned Spanish, by the way. 2191 02:28:08.159 --> 02:28:09.000 That's fantastic. 2192 02:28:09.520 --> 02:28:14.680 So folks out there, next Friday will have Hugh on 2193 02:28:14.760 --> 02:28:18.920 the show. He was a British para paratrooper. Excited to 2194 02:28:18.959 --> 02:28:23.319 have him on the show. And please subscribe to eyes On. 2195 02:28:23.600 --> 02:28:27.239 There'll be some links down the description our sister podcast 2196 02:28:27.319 --> 02:28:30.879 with Andy Milburn and Jason Lyons. And also subscribe to 2197 02:28:30.879 --> 02:28:33.840 our Patreon if you haven't already. And when you do, 2198 02:28:33.920 --> 02:28:36.440 you get access to all of these episodes, both eyes 2199 02:28:36.520 --> 02:28:39.879 On and the teamhouse totally ad free. And we really 2200 02:28:39.879 --> 02:28:44.319 appreciate your guys' support out there. Thank you and Jack, 2201 02:28:44.360 --> 02:28:46.040 thank you again for joining us tonight. 2202 02:28:47.120 --> 02:28:51.239 Yeah, let me tell you something. I got exactly what 2203 02:28:51.319 --> 02:29:00.280 I expected. So this was the first interview that was 2204 02:29:00.399 --> 02:29:05.959 primarily focused on espionage, all angles of it and and 2205 02:29:06.079 --> 02:29:10.280 uh and it. It was quite demanding, you know, for 2206 02:29:11.600 --> 02:29:15.000 I was very intense. I made a good decision to 2207 02:29:15.239 --> 02:29:18.559 go for a run first. I deteriorated a little bit 2208 02:29:18.600 --> 02:29:21.959 towards the end, but you know, I was stumbling a 2209 02:29:21.959 --> 02:29:24.680 little bit. Now, I know, I know, I know you were. 2210 02:29:24.799 --> 02:29:27.239 You were a great chat in the beginning. I was 2211 02:29:27.280 --> 02:29:27.760 pretty good. 2212 02:29:28.799 --> 02:29:31.479 So guys, we will. We'll see you next Friday. Take 2213 02:29:31.520 --> 02:29:32.159 care out there. 2214 02:29:32.600 --> 02:29:35.440 Thank you, Okay, thank you, thank you Jack, thank you 2215 02:29:35.520 --> 02:29:35.920 so much. 2216 02:29:36.840 --> 02:29:38.680 I absolutely adore you. Guys.