WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:08.839 The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:10.000 an idea. 3 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.519 The population of atheists this country is going through the. 4 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:19.039 Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I 5 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:22.559 tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not 6 00:00:22.679 --> 00:00:24.600 because I put my hand on a book and made 7 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:28.839 a wish and working together for a more rational world. 8 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.359 Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth, 9 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:34.719 Fusian wisdom will come to you that way. 10 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:43.520 Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the 11 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:50.119 Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. 12 00:00:56.359 --> 00:00:59.880 Okay, there are a lot of sound bites in this broadcast, 13 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:04.159 and those sound bites come from a video, and so 14 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:06.680 if you want to watch instead of just listen, or 15 00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:08.760 you want to go back and review the video clips, 16 00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:11.920 there's a YouTube link in the description box. Of course, 17 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:15.879 we're talking about Jordan Peterson today, who has in many 18 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:23.640 ways become a right wing darling. And he talks about spirituality, God, Christianity, 19 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:27.439 the Bible, but he does so in bizarre, nebulous, contradictory, 20 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:31.799 and often confusing ways, and yet people have lofted him 21 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:34.840 up as a great thinker. Well, he was involved in 22 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.200 a big event. I'll call it a big event. It's 23 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:41.359 been talked about a lot on the internet, and so 24 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:45.200 I wanted to talk about that today with a guy 25 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:54.920 that was involved. So here we go. Jordan Peterson. He 26 00:01:55.200 --> 00:02:00.079 is a psychologist. Some call him a great mind, this 27 00:01:59.879 --> 00:02:04.120 is debatable, and he recently set in kind of a 28 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:11.479 round table debate format against twenty atheists, including my guest today, 29 00:02:11.599 --> 00:02:14.800 my friend David McAfee. Welcome brother, how's. 30 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:16.759 It going, Thank you, glad to be back. 31 00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:20.879 So Jordan Peterson set this up or did a third 32 00:02:20.919 --> 00:02:23.840 party set the debate? How did you end up getting involved? 33 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:24.840 Just set it up for me? 34 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:29.000 Yeah, yeah, of course. So these debates have become pretty popular, 35 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:34.400 especially among the gen Z people, and it's called Surrounded 36 00:02:34.520 --> 00:02:37.639 and it's by Jubilee as the company, and they usually 37 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:40.560 get these big names. They've had Charlie Kirk, Ben Shapiro, 38 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:43.599 and they typically have them go up against twenty college 39 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:49.199 students about political you know, political topics, and these almost 40 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:53.039 all always are set up so that the person, the 41 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:58.360 main debater, the celebrity person, is going to come out victorious. 42 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:01.120 And I know that because the transcript I was handed 43 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:03.639 by the company. So they called him the hero. It said, Okay, 44 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:06.000 the hero sits in the center and everybody else that's around, 45 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.560 and he is the only one that I've seen that 46 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:13.520 public opinion has said that he's lost this format. But 47 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.000 how I became involved was Jubilee contacted me and they said, 48 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:20.080 would you like to sit down with a celebrity Christian 49 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:22.520 And I was a little hesitant at first to be 50 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:25.159 one of the twenty, you know, just going around some 51 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:28.360 mystery person. But from the clues that they gave me, 52 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:31.039 I kind of figured out it could have been Jordan Peterson, 53 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.280 and I was like, yeah, I'll take you up on that, 54 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:35.680 and so I decided to do it. 55 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:39.439 All right, So you've got a background in religious studies, 56 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:42.599 tell everybody real quick kind of what that background is. 57 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:47.120 Yeah, definitely. I majored in religious studies at UC Santa Barbara, 58 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:50.919 and I graduated and have an emphasis in Christianity and 59 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:54.599 Mediterranean traditions, and so I definitely came armed from that 60 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:55.960 perspective to this debate. 61 00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:59.919 And you are an author of what exactly. 62 00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:05.000 I'm the author of nine books. Started with disproving Christianity 63 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:08.039 and other secular writings. In college, I wrote that, and 64 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.000 then I have children's books, including the Belief Book, Book 65 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.599 of Gods, and Book of Religions, and I also published 66 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.519 No Sacred Cows about investigating myths, cults, and the supernatural. 67 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.439 It's funny because we both have a book with Sacred 68 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:22.839 Cows and the title, and whenever you published after the 69 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.639 fact that I'd published or something, and our paths crossed 70 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:28.800 and we're like, mmm, you know who's going to sue 71 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:29.519 who first? 72 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:33.120 Man, I remember because your book did come out first 73 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:35.519 and I had no idea, And I remember they were 74 00:04:35.519 --> 00:04:37.399 telling somebody told me about your book, and I was like, 75 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.399 I need to talk to him, and I emailed you 76 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:41.800 and I was like, I hope there's no bad feelings. 77 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.079 And there's a ton of books out there with those titles. 78 00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:48.639 Was Ali Risby who used the subtitle, or maybe it 79 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:52.079 was the title from Religion to Reason, which was the 80 00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:55.240 subtitle of Deconverted. This stuff just cross pollinites. I mean, 81 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:57.639 there are no original ideas anymore, but I just thought 82 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.480 it was kind of funny. So format here, I'm going 83 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:05.959 to play some clips from the actual twenty on one debate. 84 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:09.240 Some people like the format, some people think it's just 85 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:13.360 a gimmick. What did you think, I mean, you participated. 86 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:16.399 Is it just kind of a hey, it's flash for clicks, 87 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:19.439 sound biteable stuff. Does anything get accomplished or do you 88 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:22.639 find utility in having one guy in the middle and 89 00:05:22.680 --> 00:05:24.720 a circle of twenty around him or her. 90 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:28.560 I think that's a fair question. In reality, I don't 91 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.360 think it's all about accomplishing all that much. I think 92 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:36.120 it's more about setting up, you know, good soundbites and 93 00:05:36.120 --> 00:05:39.959 making the debate of the hero look good. In this case, 94 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.959 that didn't exactly happen, but I think that's more of 95 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.639 the vibe. I didn't get the sense that anybody was 96 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.279 there to really learn anything new, you know. 97 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:53.079 So the theme is that these atheists have rejected God. 98 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:58.079 Jordan Peterson says, they don't really know what God. They 99 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:01.160 are rejecting what they don't understand, and they poorly defined, 100 00:06:01.199 --> 00:06:06.279 They've limited, they've reduced. I don't know what's the vibe there, David, Yeah. 101 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.000 Yeah. His claim the first claim that the one that 102 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:11.439 I participated in, out of four claims that he made, 103 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:16.399 was that atheists reject God without understanding what they're rejecting. 104 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.920 And after fleshing out his arguments, he had kind of 105 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:23.759 redefined every single thing in there, so that you know, 106 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:26.759 God is the Christian God, and the Christian God doesn't 107 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:30.560 mean believing in Jesus. Being a Christian to him means 108 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:33.839 striving for excellence, reaching upward. That's what he said. So 109 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:38.319 that's why atheists don't understand God, because they don't understand 110 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:40.920 that all that's about is striving upward. And if we 111 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.759 understood that, we would believe in Christianity and we would 112 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:44.759 accept his position. 113 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:49.480 All right, let me play the clip itself where he's declaring, well, 114 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:51.600 he's telling atheists why they don't believe. 115 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:56.879 My experience with atheists is twofold. Is that they have 116 00:06:56.959 --> 00:07:00.480 a very reductive notion of what constitutes God, say and 117 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:03.360 did you do a Christian tradition, And they've often been 118 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:06.639 hurt by someone who was religious, or by the religious enterprise, 119 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:09.279 or perhaps by God himself, so to speak, and that's 120 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:11.000 left them with ananimous. 121 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.920 Okay, David, we have limited our idea of God and 122 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:19.399 somebody wounded us. That's kind of what I took from that. 123 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:20.360 Am I close? 124 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:25.360 Oh, you're dead on And it's an argument as old 125 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:27.560 as they come. I've heard that, you know since the 126 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.959 first word time I said that I was an atheist. 127 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:33.199 I heard somebody say, well, you know, you you just 128 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:35.639 don't understand it properly, and that it's okay, you don't 129 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.920 really believe that, And he really dug in on that claim. 130 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:43.079 And then on the flip side, he believed that belie 131 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.120 that Christians are properly do understand what they're rejecting, but 132 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:48.279 atheists do not. 133 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:51.839 And then he trods out the story of Moses. And 134 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:53.879 we did a Sunday School lesson on this on the 135 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.399 show a few years ago where we talked about how, 136 00:07:56.439 --> 00:08:00.879 you know, no mortal could ever totally take in the 137 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:05.439 full presence of God. So God had a solution for Moses. 138 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:07.120 Here's what Jordan Peterson said. 139 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:10.720 So, despite the fact that Moses is a stellar character 140 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:14.519 and he's had a long and difficult life and can 141 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:18.560 withstand a lot of difficulty in travail, God puts them 142 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:21.519 between two cliffs so we can just see a crack 143 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.319 of what's in front of him, and when God walks by, 144 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:25.959 he allows him to see his back. 145 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:26.839 Okay. 146 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:31.639 So the implication and implication of that story is that 147 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:36.759 the divine is fundamentally unknowable. It's a pinnacle experience, and 148 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:40.559 that people in their finitude have to be shielded from 149 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:45.480 a comprehensive vision of the basis of reality. Well, that's 150 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:49.480 not the God that's defined in that manner, right is 151 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:54.000 a it's not a simple personification. It's not a simple 152 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.559 old man in the sky. It's something that in its 153 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:02.360 essence is unknowable and overwhelming. And that isn't, in my experience, 154 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:05.399 the God that's defined by atheists who are attempting to 155 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:06.320 undermine the story. 156 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:10.919 The best part about Peterson's argument there is it, first 157 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:14.120 of all, is a complete over extrapolation of what the 158 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:17.440 verse actually says, where he's reading so much into something 159 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:21.799 that really just says that Moses witnessed God's backside as 160 00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:25.279 he walked by, and takes that to mean that nobody 161 00:09:25.279 --> 00:09:28.080 can comprehend the full view of God, and Moses was 162 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.240 able to only comprehend this amount, and he took it 163 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:34.240 to I mean, all these things that, as the interlocerate explained, 164 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:38.559 you don't really know, these are interpretations. And then he 165 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:40.639 kind of proved the opposite of his point by saying 166 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:44.639 God did have this physical form that was able to 167 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:48.240 be witnessed by Moses, which contradicts what he's saying about 168 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:49.919 how it's not just a man in the sky. It 169 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:51.720 clearly was just a man that was able to be 170 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:54.720 witnessed by Moses. In that case, how he's. 171 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:58.080 Enjoyed that story of God wandering the garden looking for 172 00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:01.720 Adam and E. It's Adam and E hiding behind the trees, 173 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.039 and I'm like, how do you hide from omniscience? I 174 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:06.519 never understood that story? 175 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:08.039 Same here. 176 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:11.080 So you're one of the first ones in the chair. 177 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:14.720 I think you were number two, right, and you get 178 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:17.600 like two questions in. I actually lamented the fact that 179 00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:19.639 you didn't have a longer chance to sit down with 180 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.279 a God, because I would have really welcomed a deeper exchange. 181 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.120 But we get into our first example of Jordan Peterson 182 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:29.840 telling us what we think, who we are, what we believe. 183 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:34.840 You're saying atheists don't understand what religion is or what 184 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:38.240 God is in order to be able to reject it 185 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.960 fully or completely. We have someone over here who studied 186 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:43.200 it in their own way. I've studied religion. I have 187 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:49.000 a degree in religious studies, specialty in Christianity and Mediterranean traditions, 188 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:53.480 and further than that, beyond me. Pew research studies suggest 189 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.360 the atheists and agnostics actually know more about religion and 190 00:10:57.399 --> 00:11:00.759 about religious stories the foundational principles than believers. 191 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:03.399 That's because they're more religious than they think they are. 192 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:08.879 Okay, well, they're concerned with deep matters, and one of 193 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.320 the defining characteristics of someone who's oriented religious direction is 194 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:14.000 that they're concerned with deep matters. 195 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:16.399 Okay, it fact, it's virtually definition. 196 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:18.360 Right, But they also have to identify with a religious 197 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:22.519 tradition and accept the foundational stories that go along. 198 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:24.600 Well, that would mean more that they're sectarian than that 199 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:25.519 they're religious. 200 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:28.639 All right, So you and I, by being interested in 201 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:32.919 deep matters, are apparently religious. This is news to me. 202 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:34.360 What a revelation, David. 203 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.320 Yeah, you better change the name of your podcast. I 204 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:38.759 got to change my books. So you got to do 205 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:42.000 all this stuff because Jordan Peterson says, we're not really atheist, 206 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:42.320 isn't it. 207 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:44.240 He did a lot of that, though, didn't he He would 208 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.600 look at his interlockutor and say, well, you're just uncomfortable 209 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:51.519 with the question, or you worship something because everybody does, 210 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:54.279 or this is what atheists want to do with God, 211 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:58.120 or how they define God. I mean, it's it's so presumptuous, 212 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:01.759 and I didn't see anybody else doing that to Jordan Peterson, 213 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:03.080 but he did it to you. 214 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:06.120 Oh yeah. There was a whole lot of projection in 215 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:10.919 his questioning, in his responses. He got very, very defensive 216 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.799 very early. I think my question, I think having to 217 00:12:13.879 --> 00:12:16.320 admit ignorance at the beginning of my question where I 218 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:19.039 asked him if he was familiar with the Polynesian deity 219 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:21.879 Lono and he wasn't, And I feel like just that 220 00:12:21.960 --> 00:12:24.559 little admission kind of threw him off balance for that, 221 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.559 and he was He got very defensive after that, and 222 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:29.919 that's when he started telling us what we are and 223 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:33.120 what we aren't. And you know, I also noticed being 224 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:37.279 in that room, I noticed an anger. I don't know 225 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.200 how else to describe it, but I've never seen anything. 226 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:42.720 You and I go way back, and you know I've 227 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:46.519 participated in and witnessed many many professional debates. I have 228 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:50.440 never once seen somebody with the anger and intensity and 229 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:53.360 their eyes and their voice as Jordan Peterson during that debate. 230 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.320 It was very mismatched between those of us who are 231 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:57.960 debating him and him. 232 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:00.200 And you can see it in his face and hear 233 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.120 it in his voice. For the video viewers, you will 234 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:04.720 see a few expressions in a clip that I'm playing 235 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:06.639 in just a few I'm not going to play it here. 236 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:09.960 I'll let you explain it the example. Lo, No, what 237 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.240 was it and what were you trying to accomplish? 238 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:17.120 Basically, First, I wanted to get him to admit that 239 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.039 he didn't know about a deity that he also didn't 240 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:22.600 believe in. Therefore, in a sense, has rejected belief in 241 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.679 a deity that he knows literally nothing about, so he 242 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:28.799 was guilty of the same thing that he was accusing 243 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:31.720 atheists of to start with. And then beyond that, I 244 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.039 was going to go further and show what rejection means. 245 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:38.279 Are we talking about that we you know that we 246 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:42.279 actually reject this being or are we talking about that 247 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:45.960 we just don't believe that that's the case. And then 248 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.879 you know, down to can we actually know whether a 249 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.440 deity exists or not? Hence why I'm an agnostic atheist 250 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:55.879 and nail him down on those details. But obviously we 251 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:57.799 didn't get the time for that, and I kind of 252 00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:59.559 just had to skip ahead and talk about the Pew 253 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:00.519 research studies. 254 00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:05.279 Okay, we're going to get into the Christianity that Jordan 255 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:12.360 Peterson both embraces and denies, and a pretty heated exchange 256 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.799 on that subject, and we'll play the audio and talk 257 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:17.279 more about this debate next. 258 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:17.679 Hang on. 259 00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:27.000 Very recently, the guy who once said that today's college 260 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:32.440 students were being brainwashed into cultural Marxism, who said that 261 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:38.399 disciplines like women's studies should be defunded, who advised students 262 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:44.840 to avoid subjects including sociology, anthropology, English literature, ethnic studies, 263 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:49.519 racial studies, and other fields which have been corrupted by 264 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:53.360 the woke libs. Who has claimed that there was an 265 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:59.440 ongoing crisis of masculinity and a backlash against the masculine 266 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:03.440 man who said to Joe Rogan back in twenty twenty 267 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:07.360 two that quote there is no such thing as climate, 268 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:13.360 and climate and everything are the same word. A man 269 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:17.320 somehow described in The New Yorker just a few years 270 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:22.799 ago as one of the most influential public intellectuals in 271 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:28.480 the English speaking world. Jordan Peterson recently sat down in 272 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:33.120 kind of a round table with twenty atheists, and among 273 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.679 those atheists was my guest, my friend, the guy we're 274 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.879 talking to about that today, David McAfee. So when we 275 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:45.559 get into the specifics, because he talked almost exclusively about Christianity. 276 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:48.879 But when you try to nail him down or any 277 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:51.200 of the people in the room tried to nail him 278 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:54.480 down on the specifics or backing up or defending biblical 279 00:15:54.600 --> 00:15:57.879 truths with a capital T, he was like, well, that's 280 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:02.200 not religion or religious as much as it is sectarianism, right, 281 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:06.480 this limited, narrow, myopic view of something. So now you're 282 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:09.919 merely being sectarian. But I'm like, well, if you're going 283 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.519 to invoke Christianity, how do you separate yourself from the 284 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:16.320 fundamental text of Christianity? Right? 285 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:21.799 One hundred percent? And he actually refused to say that 286 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:26.600 he believed Jesus was divine, that he believed Jesus came 287 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.639 from God, that he believed Jesus was resurrected. He wouldn't 288 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:32.960 say any of that. Yet when we were approached for 289 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:35.200 this debate, at least I was told, you know, a 290 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.799 prominent Christian, it would be called Christian verse twenty atheists. 291 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:43.279 He wouldn't even adhere to the most basic of Christian principles. 292 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:45.399 Do you believe in Jesus or not? He couldn't do it. 293 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.960 Was it true that it was originally titled the debate 294 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:54.200 was titled a Christian versus twenty Atheists, and after he 295 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:58.759 refused to identify as a Christian during the debate, somebody 296 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.159 went back and changed the name of the YouTube. 297 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:06.680 Yes, so I was approached for Christian Verse twenty Atheists. 298 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.880 During my casting agent call, the agent said something to 299 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:15.400 the effect of this person is known for saying vague 300 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.559 things about Christian culture. And as soon as I heard 301 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:23.680 Christian culture, I thought either Charlie Kirk or Jordan Peterson. 302 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.400 And Charlie Kirk just did an episode of Surrounded a 303 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:29.680 month or two ago, a couple months ago, and so 304 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.640 I figured it must be Jordan Peterson. But I looked 305 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:35.920 up online He's never identified as a Christian. So I 306 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:38.559 was like, I'm going to go in there and probably 307 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.160 expect him to this is his coming out as a Christian. 308 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:43.759 He's going to admit during this debate that he is 309 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:46.319 a Christian, and it's going to move forward. When he 310 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:49.359 didn't do that, and he you know, there's that famous 311 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:54.640 moment where he refused to Danny is his name. I 312 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:56.880 thought they would change the I thought they would publish 313 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:01.240 the YouTube video as Peterson Verse twenty Eightheists, but they 314 00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:05.240 published it as Christian Verse twenty eighteists. It took about 315 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:07.920 four hours for them to rename the YouTube video after 316 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.720 the comments were just filled with people saying, this guy 317 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:12.960 said in the video he's not a Christian. How are 318 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:17.119 you labeling this as Christian? Verse twenty eighteists. 319 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:22.000 And Christian's freaking out right? I'll yeah, you coward. 320 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:26.319 Is everybody big Christian names, big maga Christian names. People 321 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.000 made such a big stink about it. He found himself 322 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:32.960 on the shit list of so many random people, white supremacists, 323 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:34.880 all kinds of people, And I was like, holy crap, 324 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:36.799 this he really stepped in it with his own team 325 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:37.440 on this one. 326 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.640 I saw a Fox News article and it ran. I mean, 327 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:45.480 its headline was essentially, Jordan Peterson shocks by refusing to 328 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.559 identify as a Christian, and uh, you know, but then 329 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:53.359 lucky us, he decides he's going to clarify it. Jordan 330 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:58.960 Peterson uses the Old Testament and a popular iconic Old 331 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.599 Testament character to define God. 332 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:06.480 So Elijah, the prophet Elijah defined God in the Old 333 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:10.279 Testament as the voice of conscience within Okay, that's a definition. 334 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:14.000 So you're just you're saying, by that definition of God, 335 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:16.039 I see, this is kind of goes back to where 336 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:16.480 I'm saying. 337 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:18.200 We're not defining it Elijah. 338 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:21.000 So as elijahs as Elijah defines. 339 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:22.960 God to find that way in Julnah too. Okay, so 340 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.200 as Cardinal Newman also defined as I'm sure you know 341 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.240 many people who defined it that way. And it's impressive. 342 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:30.519 You're a very knowledgeable. 343 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:31.799 Person trying to be impressive. 344 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.200 I'm just pointing out to you how God is defined 345 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:35.519 in the Old Testament, all right. 346 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.960 So to respond to that, I do think there are 347 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.440 lots of interesting ways to define God. And that goes 348 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:42.960 back to mind. 349 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.119 And then how do we specify what we're arguing about. 350 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.960 We use context clues or we special we again, it 351 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:50.119 goes back to my example. 352 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:51.839 The moment finding God as conscience. 353 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:55.480 Okay, so that's interesting, but then you're kind of expanding 354 00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:57.160 the meaning of. 355 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:01.559 God on that's how it's defined in the Old Testament, Okay, Elijah. 356 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.440 And in Jonah, so whoever, so not whoever. 357 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.119 Elijah is one of the major Old Testament prophets, right, 358 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:09.000 He's equal in statue to Moses. 359 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:11.240 So it's not arbitrary, all right. 360 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:17.039 So that is interesting, but it's not relevant to the 361 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:19.759 context with which I am using the term God. 362 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:23.839 It's directly relevant. Atheists reject God, but they don't understand 363 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:24.680 what they're rejecting. 364 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:28.359 If you accept conscience as a guide and conscious is 365 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.359 one of the defining characteristics of God in the Old Testament. 366 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:34.559 I think you're being intellectually disingenuous. 367 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:34.279 In what way? 368 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.839 Because I asked you if you believe the conscience guide. 369 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:39.599 You just asked me a question, and then you stop 370 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.119 me from answering it. In this setting, you understand the 371 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:45.799 way I am using the term God and belief not 372 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:46.440 in the least. 373 00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:48.880 I don't understand how you're using it in the least. 374 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:51.640 That's why I'm trying to define it. My definition of 375 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.039 God is conscience is a lot more precise and oriented 376 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.480 than your definition of the God that you hypothetically disbelieve in. 377 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:03.960 Yeah, you know, I've always heard that God wrote the 378 00:21:04.039 --> 00:21:08.359 moral law on our hearts or something like that, and 379 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.880 so I get his argument that God is part of conscience. 380 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:16.759 But he is being intellectual intellectually dishonest there. He's being 381 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:21.319 intellectually dishonest because he knows that we're talking about the 382 00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:24.640 God that's described in the Bible, the same Bible that 383 00:21:24.680 --> 00:21:29.240 he's quoting describes a god who rains brimstone from the sky. 384 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.279 That describes a god who picks and chooses who's going 385 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.039 to win and lose in wars. It's a tribal deity 386 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:39.440 who has chosen a group of people to protect over 387 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:43.559 all others. And the way he's interpreting as conscience does 388 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:45.880 not make sense. And he knows that he knows what 389 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:46.799 he's doing as well. 390 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:47.400 I could tell. 391 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:50.799 There was a gentleman who sat in the interlocutor chair 392 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.839 was talking about you of all deathical systems as a 393 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:55.960 riff on where do your morals come from if you 394 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.640 don't believe in God? And he went down a familiar path. 395 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:05.680 You know, pro social behaviors, even altruistic behaviors makes sense 396 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:08.640 because this was a key to surviving and thriving in 397 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:14.440 the African Savannah. Blah blah blah. And Jordan Peterson he 398 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:17.599 wasn't having any of that. And he said something that 399 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:20.720 I found was interesting, and I'll play the clip so 400 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.599 you can hear him say it. Science itself has to 401 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:28.440