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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea Show,

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continuing the Cold War series with Thomas seven seven seven.

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Speaker 2: How are you doing, Thomas, I'm well, thank you man.

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Today I wanted to get in the get them as

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a somewhat difficult topic to address, I mean, not for

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the usual reasons people bandy that, but because there's so

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many misconceptions both on the left and the right and

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the kind of the sensible center I'm talking about historians,

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I mean, and there's still a lot of people still

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have a lot of strong feelings about it. Be that.

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Be that as it may. There's a basic lack of understanding,

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even among a lot of revisionists of the kind of

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broader political context of the war world in strategic terms

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and in ideological ones. And what I think of is

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apocal terms. I think people who watch our content, they've

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they they've kind of become habituated to some of my

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my vocabulary. When I talk about apocal events, you know,

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I'm not just trying to draw up on high falutin

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language or or trying to create my own kind of

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you know, revisionist esperanto. I can't think of a better

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way to describe what I'm talking about. And that's a

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rough translation of a phenomenon that Ernst and Olti describes,

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you know, and it basically the way to understand it

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is kind of practical zeitgeist, you know. But that's I

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just wanted to kind of can clarify that. And you know,

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as I've talked about before, much as much as they

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esteem guys like Meerscheimer, they're kind of locked. They're kind

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of boxed in to the kind of like the clouds

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of wits he in conceptual UH cube as it were.

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You know, like a guy like meher Scheimer. If if

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one wants to understand UH predicted in terms of predictive modeling,

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I think there's nobody better than him. And like, for example,

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like in the run of the ninety one Gulf War,

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nobody UH modeled the outcome of that conflict with more

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accuracy than he, and in fact, most people were totally

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off base. He's a clouset Witzian thinker through and through

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and ways both praiseworthy as well as uh not so praiseworthy.

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But he's so fixated on on on conceptual modeling and

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unidentifying like concrete variables that can be insinuated into that

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sort of modeling that he he really misses apocal uh

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like variables of apocal significance. Okay, nowhere is that more

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clear than in his discussion of the Vietnam War. Mershamer

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is one of these guys uh on the political right,

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like at the time and subsequent you know, he was

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constantly he was constantly making issuing the assertion that Indo

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China was was was strategically without value. You know, He's

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got this idea that the global north you know, uh,

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Western Europe, uh, you know, the United States in Canada, Japan, uh,

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Korea and some of the some of the Upper Pacific

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rim that that's you know, in the in the Middle East,

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that's basically that's basically geostrategic terms, that was the only

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that's the location of the only stakes worth fighting for.

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But that's not what people go to war anymore, okay.

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And in fact, uh states going to war over over

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commodities or over you know, to dominate trade routes and

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sea lanes. That's really that that really reflects kind of

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a narrow uh like like like a narrow kind of

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kind of narrow piece of the modern era. You know,

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we're in, uh that kind of power, political competition, you know,

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translated very much to the concrete the need to capture

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sort of concrete resources. You know. So, uh, it didn't

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It didn't matter that Vietnam, the Vietnam War happened in Vietnam.

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You know, if it had happened in Nicaragua, if it

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had happened and you know, if it had happened in

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in Greece, if it had happened uh in uh in

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Borneo like it would, it would not have mattered. You know.

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That's that that's where the communists pushed. That's where politics

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kind of conspired and intrigued, you know, for for for

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great powers to to to come together in hostile terms.

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And that's where America staked U the line in the sand.

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So it didn't matter, all right, this is where communism fought,

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you know, the uh, the American led opposition. You know

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what what what what that's self identified as the free world,

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and that's what people like, that's what people in the right,

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miss Okay. I think people on the left in contrast,

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you know what they teach college kids, you know, bullshit

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propagated by people like Chomsky or by people like Coward's

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in where they claimed that like of Vietnam War, which

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is you know, the Pentagon like murder machine profiting. That's

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not really true. I mean the the there there was

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a kind of the logic of the body count did

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become kind of uh uh a instead of into itself.

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And that's perverse in all kinds of ways, but that's

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kind of the case and in modern war in the

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twentieth century. And I I'm getting into that in the

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manuscript and right right now about Nuremberg because about half

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of it gets into the twentieth century generally. And yeah,

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there was you know, there was all and anytime there's

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anytimes a general war on it and and Vietnam was

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a general war. Okay, you had a draft uh uh

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you know, you had real casualties. You know, America was

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mobilized anyway one to the situation in Europe and the

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ongoing uh the ongoing strategic challenge presented by the Warsaw Pact.

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But I mean anytime and anytime you're dealing with the

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general war situation or conditions, uh you know, with with

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on that spectrum, there's gonna be there's gonna be people

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and and agents and uh and and and companies that

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profit from that, okay, but that's not that's not that's

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not the incentive, Okay, Like you know, uh, America didn't.

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America didn't kill three million people and and and and

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lose a sixty thousand of their own, you know, and

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eventually like impose like a decade long recession on itself

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just so that it could like sell helicopters to the Pentagon,

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you know, or so that Cold could you know, manufacture

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the armor lite and everybody makes money from you know,

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outfitting the US Army with the ship that it needs.

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Like that's that that's just a very basic view of

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things and that's not that's not reality. And uh something

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I have to other people too, And it's hard to

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be able to put themselves in in this kind of

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conceptual mindset because you know, the Cold Wars like receiving

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like out of living memory. But there was real stakes

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the warfare in the twentieth century. I mean, that's not

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to say there weren't reckless decisions made. And that's not

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to say that during the Cold War, you know, men

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in the Pentagon and command roles and in the Department

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of State didn't intriguing and inspire, you know, to go

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to war when it wasn't absolutely the you know, essential

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course of action, but this was taken very seriously because

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there was real consequences. But also you had a real

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cod reepublic intellectuals shaping defense policy, you know, and you

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really did a lot of the best in the brightest

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putting their minds to the waging of warfare. You know,

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on the technical side, at Los Alamos would be the

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zenith of that, you know, and people quite literally developing,

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you know, more and more effective nuclear weapons. But you know,

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you had you hat like I mean the point of

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people a lot. If this was nineteen seventy or nineteen eighty,

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a guy like Elon Musk could be working on SDI.

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You know, you'd have guys who are going to work

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on Wall Street now was quants. You know, they'd be

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working for the Pentagon or the Department of State, where

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they'd be working, uh for these n g O s

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you know, to figure out how to uh how to

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wage World War three. You know you didn't, you didn't

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just have these idiots and these uh these lose these

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like losers, uh like like like Pete Botagig, where the

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fuck his name is? You know, these other these other

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freaks that you know, you've had in uh Washington since

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nineteen ninety three, you know, just kind of just kind

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of deciding that, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna generally

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deploy in some theater for no particular reason. I mean

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that that did not happen in the Cold War because

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it couldn't happen, and it just wouldn't have It would

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have been like unthinkable, you know, the degree to which

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there's a paradigm shift in uh, in the public mind,

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it can't be over emphasized. But what I want to

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get into today, I want to get into the the

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political background of Vietnam and why it became such a

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critical theater. And the next episode, like I said before

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went live, you know, we'll we'll get into the battlefield

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situation because that's an important topic. It's not just I mean,

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I'm not a military guy, and I mean it's not

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really my wheelhouse, but I do know something about military

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science topics in a very like abstract sense. I mean,

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obviously I don't I don't have experience like like grunt

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stew or something, and I would not purport to, but

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the but they kind of competing, Uh, I want to

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get into West Morelands Creighton Abrams and they're kind of

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tactical orientation. I want to know a guy named John

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Paul Van and David Hackworth, you know, both of whom

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had uh had a profound the ideas that they contributed

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to an asymmetrical warfare. And uh, you know, I want

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to get into why the US Army really really couldn't

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adapt itself. It started, I think out the Army because

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Franks and the Marine Corps as well as the Air Force,

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like they did adapt free well. And the Air Force

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is the case. It's pretty remarkable because the Air Force

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was totally purposed to essentially like drop nuclear ordinance on

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the warsaw pack that they time and the and the

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you know, to to repurpose their aircraft, you know, for

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essentially you know, uh like like like fire support, you know,

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and a conventional bombing role. That remark. But today we're

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gonna we're gonna talk about politics, which isn't as sexy

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as ah as a battlefield kind of stuff, but uh,

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it's essential to understanding it. And in the case of Vietnam,

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I think I think it's I think it's uh, I

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think it's paramount or the military side of things, the

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seeds of the end of China wars uh, which uh,

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I mean really we we could say that it goes

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it's you know, things come as in nineteen thirty one,

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I mean when when the Jamis Imperial Army assaulted China.

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But for our purposes, what's conventiond what's conventionally viewed as

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the Indo China Wars is you know the French UH,

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the French war against the Vietnam that kicked off I forty.

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You know, there was the storied defeat that dym been fu.

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You know, the Forid legion got you know, surrounded and annihilated,

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you know, and then the American War, which traditionally is

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viewed as commencing in sixty five because that's when there

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was the mass conventional build up, you know, he was

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involvement ended in seventy three. Saigon fell in seventy five.

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I'd include uh, I'd include the uh the Khmer Rouge

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conquest of Cambodia within that same like conceptual paradigm too,

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as well as the nineteen seventy nine war that Vietnam

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foughtings the people's the public of China, which is fascinating,

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and that the latter event informs a strategic landscape today

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in profound ways. I find it fascinating but actually sensible,

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and I attribute this to Robert Gates also, who was

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a rare like sensible man and in UH in in

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power and policy corridors, you know, post ninety three. But

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he UH Obama, like in my opinion, owing to Gates's tutelage,

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UH lifted remaining restrictions on arm sales to UH the

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People's Republic of Vietnam very obviously, you know, employee Vietnam

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is a military hedge against the People's Republic in China,

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which is very smart. Honestly. That's that, that's it jumped

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out of me because it was one of the few, uh,

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one of the one of the few part of political

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moves and not only made sense, like rational sense, but

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actually was was was strategically sound and you'd never really

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see you as government engage in anything sensible anymore. But

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en though China, you know, uh, it really it really

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was kind of the jewel of Southeast Asia. You know,

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there's a reason why the French hung onto it. And

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it wasn't just prestige and clout the way they did.

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You know, Vietnam was not just this backwater. It's a

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comparatively huge country, you know, very large population, and it

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was it was a cosmopolitan place, okay, and in geostrategic terms,

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like I said again, that wasn't paramount. But uh, the

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French indo China, according to guys who spent a lot

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of time, spent a lot of time with geopolitics, you know,

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beginning in really in the nineteenth century, like on Crimean War. Actual, yeah,

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probably around like eighteen twelve, they final Napoleonic era, as

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is that kind of closed out, and Europeans started thinking

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a lot about about the the you know, the then

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contemporary battlefield. People generally associated into China with the kind

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of the eastern third of the mainland of South East Asia, okay,

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and they viewed it as essential in that regard. Like

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I'm you know, not just as like a hedge against

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the you know, powers emerging within the interior. But uh,

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you know, there's it's it's you know, it's got it's

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got cxs obviously, you know, on this extensive coast, you know,

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things like that. So it's Americans tend to be kind

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of geo strategically illiterate, and they Mosto got the time

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to dismissed everywhere some backwater and that's that's particularly as

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guiding as at Vietnam. Like, yeah, Vietnam was largely backwards

236
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in ninety sixty five, but most of this planet was

237
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backwards in ninety sixty five. And those places that weren't,

238
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like a lot of them were still like in ruins

239
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because twenty years before, like you know, the world the

240
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gone to hell in a hand basket, and you know

241
00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:37,600
in uh there were some places, including in Europe, mostly

242
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behind the wall, but not exclusively that I mean, it

243
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,120
was still like until the eighties, like you know, there

244
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was visible like battle damage from you know, combat at

245
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forty years previously. So that's something to keep in mind. Uh,

246
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:59,399
the uh Ho Chi Minh himself was uh, well actually

247
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the melu that Ho Chi Minh came out of. Uh.

248
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The Vietnamese were looking for an identity in peculiar ways,

249
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and Vietnam is a complex society. It wasn't like North Korean.

250
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There's something I don't know if people know the history

251
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,480
particularly well, it's strange. But you know Kim Il Sung,

252
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you know who, uh who who became Stellin's protege. He

253
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was one of the Soviet Koreans. You know, part part

254
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,919
of Stalin's uh you know issue with the nationalities was

255
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,799
you know, not just you know, genocidal uh programs against

256
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,320
people that he considered to be you know, politically unreliable,

257
00:15:42,159 --> 00:15:45,679
but also trying to assimulate populations that he considered to

258
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be useful, like in the kind of the Soviet sphere

259
00:15:47,919 --> 00:15:51,120
of influence in his Soviet life, well, the Koreans and

260
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the Soviet Far East he considered to be one of

261
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these populations. And Kim Il sung really had no interest

262
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or under in or norns of communism. And if you

263
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,279
look in North Korea to day, like they you know,

264
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it's it's this kind of like prestiche of like nineteen

265
00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:10,919
fifty Stalinism and and and kind of cargo cult uh

266
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uh in military dictatorship the type of the nineteen eighties

267
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or something.

268
00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:23,919
Speaker 1: It's also an hereditary it's a hereditary dictatorship, which yeah, exactly.

269
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,120
I think Stalin had told them you can't, you can't

270
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,240
do that, and they're like, screw you, You're just gonna.

271
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Speaker 2: Do what we want. Yeah exactly. But it's but people

272
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,840
have this like people tend the sentence you like transposed

273
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,399
that that those kinds of tendencies to places like Vietnam,

274
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,320
which is very very misguided and like among other things.

275
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,639
I'm sure some people are gonna claim that this is

276
00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:47,960
me being like a chauvinistic white man or whatever. I mean.

277
00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:53,200
Obviously I don't care. But I I colonize peoples, they

278
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,360
tend to take on their characteristics of their colonizers, okay,

279
00:16:56,399 --> 00:17:02,039
and the French are very sophisticated people. Okay. Now I'm

280
00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:04,799
not saying that the Vietnamese, otherwise it'd be stupid or something.

281
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,960
I've I find the Vs actually be very interesting. That's

282
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:14,519
why this people, I mean included. Vietnam features heavily in

283
00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:16,960
my fiction, as people will see when the second book drops.

284
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:22,160
But you know, so Vietnam, like any place, whether it's

285
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,640
Algeria or Vietnam or anywhere or Morocco, that was you know,

286
00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:29,000
colonized by the French. It was it was not gonna

287
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,880
it was not gonna be some backwater like North Korea. Okay,

288
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,119
I mean regardless, even if what the German would called

289
00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,599
the mentioned material was was not particularly I'm trying to

290
00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:41,240
be delegate here, it was not particularly capable of human

291
00:17:41,279 --> 00:17:46,920
stock okay, but the Vietnamese, you know, they're uh there,

292
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,720
there are relatively creative people. And Uh Ho Chiman himself,

293
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,279
he was the son of a Confucian scholar, and he

294
00:17:57,319 --> 00:17:59,839
was a mysterious guy. His birth year is generally accepted

295
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,839
as eighteen ninety, but that's that's never been verified conclusively.

296
00:18:04,559 --> 00:18:08,200
A lot of sources, both within Vietnam and without like

297
00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:14,680
claim other years. His father, his family like lived in

298
00:18:14,799 --> 00:18:17,079
Central Vietnam, which was kind of like a hub of

299
00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,680
culture as well as political activity, and this endured through

300
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,640
like the American War in Vietnam. But it owing to

301
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,079
his dad, is going to his father's prestige, you know

302
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,000
that just asn't not just as an intellectual, but he

303
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:34,640
was this he was a kind of like he was

304
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:41,720
an imperial magistrate like the Uh after when Vietnam became

305
00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:46,400
technically an empire, like after the Japanese deposed like the

306
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,400
French in nineteen forty five. This is before the war ended.

307
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,119
It was the VC regime and Uh and Uh the

308
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:59,519
thirteenth Emperor of Vietnam who who stepped out who advocated

309
00:18:59,559 --> 00:19:01,960
ninety fifty five, but because it may there was an

310
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,920
imperial court and Ho Chiman's father. Uh, he was. He

311
00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:08,000
was like this. He was like one half like top

312
00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:11,799
one half judge kind of and he was demoted because

313
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,519
uh for for abuse of power after some influential local

314
00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:20,240
hot show was uh what was availed to summary punishment

315
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,000
in in Hoe's father's core, and he was sentenced to

316
00:19:24,079 --> 00:19:27,880
something crazy like one hundred lashes uh with with a cane,

317
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:28,839
you know.

318
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:29,200
Speaker 3: Uh?

319
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,440
Speaker 2: Any and the guy died, Okay, So that so o

320
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,759
Chimn's dad was. I mean this he was something. I mean,

321
00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:38,759
he loomed larger to say the least, and he was

322
00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:41,759
he was basically a judge and an intellectual and a

323
00:19:41,759 --> 00:19:45,720
confusion and a judge, intellectual and a priest kind of.

324
00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:48,839
I mean, Confucianism is kind of confusing of the Western mind,

325
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,559
including mine own. But you know, this was not Hochman

326
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,319
was not some guy peasant stock like quite the contrary.

327
00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,839
Ho Chiman did kind of rewrite his biography as communists

328
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,240
all kind of did, and I mean, to be fair

329
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,519
partisans all do that to some degree. Even Cromwell did that.

330
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,119
He claimed. Ho Chiman claimed that he was radicalized in

331
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,519
nineteen oh eight when because he was, he was sent

332
00:20:17,559 --> 00:20:21,519
to Hoais city to study, okay, and he said he

333
00:20:21,559 --> 00:20:25,839
came across this demonstration of these poor peasants who were

334
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,839
bound in this kind of peculiar form of serfdom that

335
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,559
existed in South East Asia. I can't remember what the

336
00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:35,799
French word is for it, but it was it was basically,

337
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,920
uh like like think of a think of a serf

338
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,839
who's bound in the land and who's not compensated for

339
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,160
his labor, but he's like, you know, paying rent on

340
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,599
his occupation of the land which he can't leave. This

341
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,720
was a big deal in Vietnam especially, and there was this,

342
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,400
there was this there was this demonstration that that the

343
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,680
Imperial Court cracked down on violently and uh, you know,

344
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,240
uh the social justice type of the day, including a

345
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,799
lot of Catholics because uh you know obviously you know,

346
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,240
Catholic missioners reactive in into China owing to the French regime,

347
00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:13,920
but as well as well it's kind of the the

348
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,480
socialist International. This was like a big deal and whole

349
00:21:16,519 --> 00:21:18,559
claimed like, well, this is when I realized, like I

350
00:21:18,599 --> 00:21:20,519
was a communist, Okay, I mean, well that's true or not,

351
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,119
who knows. But he was mired in a revolutionary environment

352
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,720
owing to the fact, uh owing to his family's downura

353
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,119
mobility and no small measure because of the scandal of

354
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,480
his father and and this uh, this caning victim who died.

355
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,440
Ho realized that he wasn't going to be able to

356
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,160
he wasn't gonna be able to get a job, uh,

357
00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:44,640
you know, with with with with this with the Imperial court.

358
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,319
And he said he refused to uh to try and

359
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,319
work uh you know as in the in the colonial administration,

360
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,720
because he refused to serve the French. And that's probably true.

361
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,440
So what he did do was he applied to work

362
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,880
on a French merchant ship when he got from when

363
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,279
he when he got to Saigon and UH in nineteen eleven,

364
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,559
UH he traveled first to France and then he ended

365
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,119
up in Dunkirk. He got back and forth between the

366
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,880
UK and Marseille UH for a few years, and then

367
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,519
from nineteen thirteen to nineteen nineteen he was in London.

368
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,359
It's disputed by some these days, but there's actually a

369
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,240
plaque in the New Zealand House in London, you know,

370
00:22:29,279 --> 00:22:31,759
which is which houses literally you know, like the New

371
00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:35,039
Zealander diplomatic mission that said that like ho Chi men

372
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,440
worked here is like some kind of pastry chef. Okay,

373
00:22:38,759 --> 00:22:41,119
so I mean he was moving in pretty elite circles.

374
00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:43,920
You know. I'llbeit in in a in a kind of

375
00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:45,960
in a in a kind of meal role. But I

376
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,680
mean he was a young guy, so it wasn't something

377
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,400
that would have been seen as improper for a guy

378
00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:54,440
his station, and he wouldn't just be viewed as like

379
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,799
a kolie, you know, because he was I mean he

380
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,759
was even he was very young, Okay, even though he

381
00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:01,759
you know, he was a teenager in the early twenties.

382
00:23:01,839 --> 00:23:04,119
I mean, even though we don't know his precise birthday,

383
00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:12,960
I mean that much, it's clear. In nineteen nineteen he

384
00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:19,960
returned to France in part because of a French socialist

385
00:23:20,079 --> 00:23:24,480
named Marcel Kasheen. I'm sure we're during that pronunciation as

386
00:23:24,519 --> 00:23:29,519
they often do. Excuse me. He was an activist and

387
00:23:29,559 --> 00:23:34,559
the Socialist Party of France. What Kasheen essentially convinced Hoe

388
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,119
of was he said, look, you know the uh, the

389
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:44,240
Versailles uh, the Versailles Summit, this is our chance to

390
00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:48,119
approach the light leaders, you know about freedom for for

391
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,319
Indo China, you know, because now they'll be receptive, you know,

392
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,960
not owing to any particular uh, you know, interest in

393
00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,440
our cause, but because uh, you know, something is gonna

394
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,319
have to something, something's gonna have to you know, replace

395
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,519
the imperial regime, and like even they have to see that,

396
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,480
you know. And part of this, part of this was

397
00:24:09,559 --> 00:24:14,079
kind of rigid Marxist uh, you know, thinking deterministic, rather

398
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,920
thinking like you know this this is you know, like

399
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,480
reading the proverbial signs, you know, like like an auger

400
00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:22,759
Wood like obviously this is you know, a crucial moment

401
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,839
and in the advance of history, you know, we we've

402
00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:28,519
got to get the attention to these men because capitalists,

403
00:24:28,519 --> 00:24:31,119
though they are, you know, oppressors as they though they are,

404
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,599
you know, they're they're nonetheless you know that they're then

405
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,200
that they're none the less serving the cause of history

406
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,920
as a whole men are you know? I mean this

407
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,640
is already clear to people who kind of understand uh,

408
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:48,640
Marxist ontology such that it could be said to exist.

409
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,759
Ultimate subsequently claim that what drove Droom to Paris initially

410
00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:57,480
was that he'd uh was that he he joined the

411
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,599
group of Vietnamese patriots. Uh. That's when it translated to

412
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:08,400
the I again, I can't I can't pronounce the French moniker.

413
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,680
But it was this group that coalesced in Paris, Uh.

414
00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:19,160
You know, most clear uh uh with the university environs.

415
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,960
But they all they did have some power within the

416
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,880
syndic within within the cynicalist unions that had and there

417
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,920
was a number of Asian workers like who were present

418
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,920
on the ground. I mean obviously because you know, the

419
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,039
French Empire was always UH was always was always hungry

420
00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:39,400
for menial labors, medial laborers from the outer dominions. But

421
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:45,079
this this particular faction, it included UH, basically the guys

422
00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:47,559
who became kind of like the core of the Vietnamese

423
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:55,599
nationalist movement, okay, including UH Fanshoo trend Fan Van Trong.

424
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,319
These native probably don't mean anything to anybody today, but

425
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:05,359
they they were in the inter warriors and into UH

426
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,200
into the French Indo China War. Uh. These guys constituted

427
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,640
in early cadre of of a of the political leadership

428
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:21,160
cast resisting UH, resisting French UH control political and military.

429
00:26:21,839 --> 00:26:24,160
So I mean these were like heavy, These were heavy people, okay,

430
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,359
And I mean undoubtedly Hoe was able to finangle that

431
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:30,359
like owing to his background. You know, I mean he

432
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,759
downplayed his privilege and everything like that, but he I

433
00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:36,119
mean he was a guy who was I mean again

434
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:42,240
he his father was, Ah was Uh. It was a

435
00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:46,559
very esteemed individual as well as owing to Hoe's Confusion education,

436
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:48,519
you know, he would have had to be he would

437
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:50,839
have had to have mastered a colloquial Vietnamese in a

438
00:26:50,839 --> 00:26:53,640
way that most people just would not. You know, he

439
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,880
developed attitude in French. You know, he knew Chinese letters

440
00:26:57,599 --> 00:27:00,720
because you had due to study confusion texts, you know.

441
00:27:00,799 --> 00:27:03,119
I mean he was he was very very well situated

442
00:27:04,079 --> 00:27:08,279
to take to you know, to to make contact with

443
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:16,720
revolutionary cadres, particularly in UH, particularly in uh In in

444
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,519
UH Interwar H France. But UH and Ho Uh and

445
00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,759
his UH, his comrades, they actually they formally sent their

446
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,400
letter to UH to the Allied delegation, you know, Clement

447
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:35,519
sau Woodrow Wilson. They weren't able to obtain any consideration.

448
00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:40,279
But what it did do was it I I attribute

449
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:43,079
this the fact that Hoe was very he was comfortable

450
00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:45,240
with Westerners, He was familiar with them as well as

451
00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:51,160
his his French was was was beyond competent. It was

452
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:56,000
probably not absolutely fluent, but it was far more so

453
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,920
than you know, your average your average Oriental at that

454
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,599
time that you know you'd run into in Europe. Ho

455
00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:06,240
chiet Man became identified as the leader of the anti

456
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,359
colonial movement in Vietnam, for better or worse. And we've

457
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:16,079
discussed in the course of our you know, of our discussions,

458
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,160
and I made the point myself for Pate and my

459
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,480
pod in my lawn form a lot of what role

460
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,559
any man becomes insinuated into, regardless of his aptitude or ambition.

461
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,720
I'm talking politically, particularly a revolutionary. If people decide that

462
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,519
you know you are the leader, well then you are

463
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,359
in some real sense, okay, And this uh the Versailles

464
00:28:39,359 --> 00:28:44,640
delegation identifying how even though they effectively snubbed him, the

465
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,759
fact that they identified him as the leader of the

466
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:50,960
Vietnamese resistance, I'd say that that's what launched his career

467
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,720
as a as a professional revolutionary.

468
00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:59,599
Speaker 1: Is there is there any evidence of like who he

469
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,680
was re thing, who he was most inspired inspired by.

470
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:11,079
Speaker 2: That's a good question, I speculate. Despite the fact, and

471
00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:15,359
this is gonna seem strange, particularly because most people you

472
00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,079
know who are familiar with the French left uh, not

473
00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:19,920
just younger people, I mean even people mind's a little

474
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,319
bit older. They be the French Left as kind of

475
00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:26,640
the driving force behind the sixty eight ers, and uh,

476
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:30,599
the kind of break with the Warsaw Pact and uh,

477
00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:32,799
you know, the kind of you know, the New Left

478
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,799
was literally founded by Foucot et least in In in

479
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:42,079
academ However, in uh, the Inner War yors, particularly at

480
00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:46,519
the time of Versailles, the French, the French Communists were

481
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:52,759
very very orthodox Marxist Lentinis. They they very much believed

482
00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:57,880
in the common turn. Uh and it's orthodoxy, probably even

483
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,599
more so than anybody, probably even more so than the Germans,

484
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,480
because there was uh, you know, one of the reasons

485
00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:07,440
why the so you know, the seed not the KPD

486
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,480
begin the ruling party in East Germany was because the

487
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:15,880
Social Democrats and and the Marcus Leninist could never come

488
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,839
to the table. France did not really have that problem. Yes,

489
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,559
France was, Uh, I'm gonna say France was a house

490
00:30:21,599 --> 00:30:24,160
divided quickly. I mean would be a gross center statement.

491
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,640
But the French Communist, for whatever reason, they I owe

492
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,839
it to I owe this phenomenon to very strong cadre building.

493
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,440
They were very very much united. And uh, I would speculate,

494
00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:40,400
and again I would I'd have to deep dive into it,

495
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,079
and it would be very hard, I think. I mean,

496
00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:43,559
it could be done, but it would take time to

497
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,039
kind of tease out real data on what the primary

498
00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:49,680
sources were. But whether we're talking about Paul Pott or

499
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:54,680
Ho Chi minh or Japp who uh who o Chi

500
00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:57,799
minh Uh had met at Huay when he was a

501
00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:01,559
student there, all these guys either owing to the fact

502
00:31:01,599 --> 00:31:03,759
that they were in France or you know, owing to

503
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:08,839
the French influence upon their cadre structure, like in Indo, China.

504
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,799
They they they'd be reading Marx and Lenin, you know,

505
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,759
and they and they they then and they'd be reading

506
00:31:14,799 --> 00:31:17,839
you know, they they'd be reading Hegel and they you know,

507
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,079
they would have become familiar with the Aristotle and and

508
00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:23,000
and and they would have become and and and and

509
00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:26,920
Thomas Paine and Lock. But they but they, they like

510
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,160
Marx and Lenin would be there, you know, their Bible

511
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,039
as it were. But yeah, that's a great question, and

512
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:36,160
that's kind of a fascinating subject, especially like again, you know,

513
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:41,359
like we just mentioned uh, it's uh like like amaging

514
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,720
the French left is kind of like the standard bearer

515
00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:46,799
of you know, rigid orthodoxy is is kind of hilarious.

516
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,960
But I mean that's that's that's that's the way it was.

517
00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:58,759
Excuse me, they, uh, this is actually what gives ryans

518
00:31:58,759 --> 00:32:01,359
to the myth. I don't know, I don't know how

519
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,880
much this is bandied about by court historians these days,

520
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:09,720
because frankly, don't read a lot of court history on uh,

521
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,680
on either World War One or on the Cold War,

522
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,440
I mean anymore. I mean I do for like, for

523
00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:18,440
dedicated purposes, like in my writing and research, you know,

524
00:32:18,599 --> 00:32:20,960
like if I say like, okay, well, you know, I

525
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,839
like refresh my recollection with what, you know, with what

526
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,599
kind of like the mainstream historians of the day, and

527
00:32:27,599 --> 00:32:29,839
we're saying about let's say, like the French War in Algeria,

528
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,079
you know, and then you know, so not not just

529
00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:33,720
for the sake like teeing off on the AD, but

530
00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:36,119
just kind of you know, get a sense of what

531
00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:39,160
people take for granted in terms of kind of the

532
00:32:39,759 --> 00:32:41,599
not not just not just the key events that they

533
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:47,440
identify as as being essential understanding the conflict, but also

534
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:49,720
kind of like you know, what what sort of values

535
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,960
are insinuated into the narrative, you know, and and hind

536
00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:59,839
and deliberatet hindsight. But when I was uh, like when

537
00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:02,400
I'm when I was high school age, if you read

538
00:33:02,839 --> 00:33:05,480
like a college textbook or like if you took like,

539
00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:08,680
you know, uh an international relations class in your high school,

540
00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:12,119
it's say that oh you see, you know, in nineteen nineteen,

541
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,720
there was this Wilsonian moment where you know, Ho Chi

542
00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:17,839
minh he could have adopted a pro American stance if

543
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,319
only Wilson had paid attention to him. But you know,

544
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,200
because because you know, these like mean weight men were

545
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,559
just like being mean and racist, like this didn't happen.

546
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,359
Like I think that that's nonsense for all kinds of reasons.

547
00:33:29,359 --> 00:33:30,920
I mean, first of all, it's it's like kind of

548
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:37,319
sending him fucking stupid, but also it really kind of

549
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:40,079
sells people like Ho tiam In short, Ho Hiaman wasn't

550
00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:42,480
there to be a koolie and like gravel for you know,

551
00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:48,279
token concessions. He uh he he he basically said, he

552
00:33:48,319 --> 00:33:53,240
basically penned this document and owen to his uh and

553
00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:56,000
on end to the influence of kind of his French

554
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,759
patrons who were experienced revolutionaries. They seem to think that

555
00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:06,640
Wilson would recognize Wilson and Clements so would recognize they

556
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,760
didn't know China was going to be a significant potential

557
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,920
battle theater. Okay, there was nothing friendly about this communication,

558
00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:14,639
you know. And then this idea that everybody if you

559
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,719
if if you give HOCHI meant a coke and a

560
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,119
Snickers bar or Hershey, aren't get him on the head,

561
00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:21,320
he'll like, you know, give you a buck tooth grin

562
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,119
and say I love g I Joe Coca Cola. Like

563
00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:26,880
that's way more quote unquote racist than anything in Wilson's mind.

564
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,320
This brings us to I realize I'm jumping around a lot,

565
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,079
but I as we get into this further, like I

566
00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:39,760
think I shall be redeemed because people will understand. And

567
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,400
I want to get out of the way now to

568
00:34:41,519 --> 00:34:43,480
reference a lot of these things as we get into

569
00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:46,800
kind of the hard and fast, uh strategic analysis of

570
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,079
the conflict, and I don't want to have to keep

571
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:51,159
jumping back and saying, well, this is what this was.

572
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,480
People talk all the time about how Vietnam was like

573
00:34:57,519 --> 00:35:00,719
this grave kind of failure of collective security and why

574
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,039
do they say that, Well, they said because of Cito Scato,

575
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,960
Like what was Cito to Ito is the Southeast Asian

576
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,320
Treaty organization. And if you think it sounds a lot

577
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,159
like NATO, you'd be right, because that's what that's what,

578
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,639
That's what his whole notion was was created by the

579
00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:21,119
Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty also known as the Manila Pack,

580
00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:23,760
that was signed in September nineteen fifty four. And you

581
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,519
guessed at Manila, the Philippines. Now who who's the driving

582
00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:32,280
force behind CITO? It was a Vice President Nixon who,

583
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,800
upon returning from Asia ninety three said, look, we need

584
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,159
some kind of collective security arrangement in Asia that you know,

585
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:45,639
tantamount to NATO. There was far more confidential conflict diets

586
00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:50,159
in Asia. The strategic landscape was a lot more fluid.

587
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,119
But and Nixon realized that. But at the same time

588
00:35:55,199 --> 00:35:56,840
he said that, you know, one of the reason it's

589
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,239
impossible to h you know, develop a meaningful, uh kind

590
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,559
of strategic posture moving forward is because it's uncertain like

591
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:08,480
what any what if anything, you know, anyone's willing to

592
00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:11,480
commit and what what they're willing to stand on as

593
00:36:11,639 --> 00:36:17,480
you know, essential interests, and uh, this creates a credibility problem.

594
00:36:18,159 --> 00:36:21,800
George Kennon also was very much behind this idea, if

595
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,199
not CITO itself, he said, there's got to be some

596
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,079
kind of collective security structure of a formal nature. Now,

597
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,559
I make this point a lot as people for a

598
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:35,480
few reasons. People act like NATO is this magical thing

599
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,199
that uh, I mean obviously like anybody who claims NATO

600
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,760
actually still exists as a fucking moron. But UH also

601
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:49,079
subsident does exist. It's profoundly destabilizing. But we don't know

602
00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:53,639
if NATO was uh, what was effective or not. What

603
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,360
we do know is that there was basic credibility behind it,

604
00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:00,920
and UH, the Soviet Union considered America, you know, represent

605
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,760
a credible threat, you know if uh if uh if

606
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,199
the primary conflict DIAD in Europe was triggered, you know,

607
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,639
which was obviously the inner German border. But at the

608
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,679
same time, UH, America periodically had to meet Soviet efforts

609
00:37:17,679 --> 00:37:23,840
to decopple UH. European collective security from American strategic interests

610
00:37:24,119 --> 00:37:28,519
was one reason why America maintained intermediate nuclear forces in Europe.

611
00:37:28,599 --> 00:37:31,119
That's another question, and well that's a complicated issue. We'll

612
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:35,719
get into that. But my point is that it's not

613
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:42,039
treaties themselves that that that promotes stability. It's the it's

614
00:37:42,119 --> 00:37:46,280
it's it's the willingness of the signatories, you know, in

615
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,000
order to UH. It's a willingness the signatories. I say

616
00:37:49,039 --> 00:37:51,599
it was credibility. They're in Okay, and this should be obvious.

617
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,960
Where the signatories two seats though, it was Australia, France,

618
00:37:56,119 --> 00:38:01,280
New Zealand, the Philippines, Thailand, the United Kingdom and the USA. Okay,

619
00:38:02,159 --> 00:38:05,679
I might add this out of those signatories, Australia, New

620
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,760
Zealand cave show up to showed up the fight the

621
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:12,880
Vietnam War. Okay. France had just fought the vietnamn UH

622
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,760
for eight years and been defeated. Thailand was definitely a

623
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,159
combatant in the Vietnam War. If for no if I

624
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,239
mean they this was very much below board in terms

625
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,920
of special operations forces were very effective, but Thailand unconditionally

626
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:31,199
availed UH, their their bases and their airspace to do

627
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,719
anything that the Allies needed. The UK UH, the the

628
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:43,119
UK just UH. This caused great consternation. Anthony Eden profoundly offended.

629
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,480
H U S Department of State of the Era and

630
00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:52,679
UH by essentially making it clear UH that that the

631
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,760
UK would not commit any kind of collective security arrangements

632
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,599
as regards the no China. Why they put pen to

633
00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:03,960
paper on the middle of pact, that's another question that's

634
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,800
kind of complicated. It ordered the kind of the weasel

635
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,159
wards inherent to UH. To diplomats, I think I'm not.

636
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,320
I don't know if I'm gonna hatred of of of

637
00:39:18,119 --> 00:39:20,039
I don't know if I'm gonna hatred of diplomats in

638
00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:24,519
an of themselves. But there is a there's a kind

639
00:39:24,519 --> 00:39:27,440
of a lawyer ball they play about, you know, qualifying

640
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,440
their willingness to hottern treaty obligations and UH. In the

641
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,760
case of the UK UH deciding on with Seito, it

642
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,519
had a lot to do with the claims of well,

643
00:39:38,559 --> 00:39:40,960
this is this is a quote defensive alliance, I mean,

644
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,119
which is meaningless and more in peace. As Carl Smith taughtus,

645
00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:47,239
there's another thing as an offensive or defensive war. All

646
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,039
wars both offensive and defensive. But that's a bit upside

647
00:39:50,079 --> 00:39:55,719
the scope. Any event, it was cedy was headquartered in

648
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:06,079
uh In in Bangkok, Thailand. Incidentally, two and again Dulles, Uh,

649
00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:09,840
John Foster Dallas was one hundred percent behind it. Two.

650
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:12,559
In fact, he could be viewed as kind of the

651
00:40:12,599 --> 00:40:18,239
primary architect, like I said Nixon. Nixon was was convinced

652
00:40:18,639 --> 00:40:24,280
a formal club of security arrangement was necessary, modeled roughly

653
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,079
on NATO. Dulles was the one who pushed for CIDO

654
00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:29,639
as the answer to that. And it was Dulles who

655
00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:36,000
who who uh who was profoundly offended by Eaden's anyone

656
00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:38,559
to commit what is interesting? And it goes to U

657
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:41,400
two that like the quote special relationship between the United

658
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,079
States and the UK, I mean there were people in

659
00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:45,559
the UK who had fake realize the UK lost World

660
00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:48,519
War Two, and Eatan's a complicated figure. And a year

661
00:40:48,599 --> 00:40:51,159
later in ninety fifty five, like Eden mcame Prime Minister.

662
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,480
But that's he's he's one of the more interesting post

663
00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:00,280
war uh British executives I think. But yeah, as it

664
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,400
may like he he made it clear that the UK

665
00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:06,039
was was was was gonna sit out anything that happened

666
00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:09,480
in in in Southeast Asia. And it's an interesting question,

667
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,280
you know, I mean the obviously neither Eden nor anybody

668
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,679
else wasn't kind of augur. But you know, war literally

669
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,360
came to the UK's doorstep, uh in Northern Ireland and

670
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:30,480
uh there revisional IRA's efforts were very much perceived as

671
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,159
as as part of the anti colonial movement. Okay, I mean,

672
00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:35,320
I don't want to I don't want to start some

673
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,280
big controversy with people. I'm not sitting here saying that

674
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,559
Canadians were a bunch of communists or something like that, Okay,

675
00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:45,880
but it point being everything else aside, even if even if,

676
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,760
even if it's been some kind of hawkish uh like

677
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:54,800
proto Thatcher type at Downing Street, I don't the situation

678
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,360
that actually developed in the UK in the sixties. I

679
00:41:58,519 --> 00:42:00,800
don't think they were in a position to be they'll

680
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,519
be fighting some general war against against you know, North

681
00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:08,360
Vietnam and you know, halfway across the planet. But isn't

682
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:19,800
ans counterfactual? The uh, the background of what the what

683
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:29,400
immediately gave rise Desito From April twenty sixth until July twentieth,

684
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,840
nineteen fifty four. Uh, there's a Geneva conference in the

685
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,920
Status of Indo China, Like why was this convened? Well,

686
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,800
the French uh had you know, had just taken a

687
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:45,159
defeat by the VIETNMM at the end been Fu, uh,

688
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,400
which I would say was other than Singapore, you know

689
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,840
where the where the Jamons and Pupil army just just

690
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,960
like smashed the United Kingdom. That Singapore is the most

691
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:01,719
devastating defeat every levied to a white Westerner by a

692
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:08,519
uh a arising a rising non Western state them ben

693
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:11,800
Fu was the second, okay, Uh. The psychological impact on

694
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,199
this was devastating, and the Vietnam showed that they were

695
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,239
a marshall race. Okay. They man handled artillery up the

696
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,800
mountain side and and bombarded the French positions. You know.

697
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,039
The uh, the the Vietnamese of a genuine they've got

698
00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:31,480
a genuine aptitude for war. We'll get into that as

699
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,440
in the next episode, as we get into the kind

700
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:40,239
of battlefield realities of the war. But that aside the

701
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:45,559
characteristics of the Vats themselves, aside. You know, France, Uh,

702
00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:50,199
France was a real military power in those days. Okay too.

703
00:43:50,199 --> 00:43:53,559
They weren't slouches, you know, and they weren't uh, they

704
00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:55,760
weren't you know, the France nineteen fifty four wasn't the

705
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,480
France to today. You know, these this wasn't some half

706
00:43:58,519 --> 00:44:02,119
assed army of a of mercenaries or something either. I mean,

707
00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:04,360
it was the French Foreign Legion, you know, and these

708
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:11,440
were crack troops, you know, highly motivated, arguably uh arguably

709
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,039
the best equipped the army on the planet at that point.

710
00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:16,320
You know, it kind of was confortable you know the

711
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,320
United States. Uh, it was coin of the year. They

712
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,360
it was connerable with the United States was fighting with Korea,

713
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:27,119
you know, after after a mobilization kicked off in earnest,

714
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,639
but uh, becase it may uh there's need of a conference.

715
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,519
Uh and the statisment of China. Half of it was

716
00:44:34,559 --> 00:44:37,039
it was it was purpose. Half of it was purpose

717
00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:42,000
to deal with issues resolving from the Korean War, you know,

718
00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:45,960
and the UH and then the armistice, and and half

719
00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:48,920
was the kind of resolve the French you know, China situation,

720
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,000
which is the recipe for as to begin with. Okay,

721
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:55,719
like you don't take that approach the you know, just

722
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,639
say yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna we're gonna knock out

723
00:44:57,639 --> 00:44:59,800
two birds of one stone with this like great conference

724
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,920
and you know, we're just gonna figure out you know,

725
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,320
the based the whole status of Asia by you know,

726
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:09,440
putting the right you know, put it put putting, you know,

727
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,760
putting the right putting the right paperwork together. I mean,

728
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:19,800
all the things ridiculous. UH. The delegation, the delegations UH

729
00:45:20,559 --> 00:45:24,079
represented on the status of Korea. It was the Soviet Union,

730
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,760
Peoples of Public in China, North and South Korea, and

731
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,360
the U s A and the Indo China side of UH.

732
00:45:31,079 --> 00:45:35,639
The of the UH at the conference was France, UH.

733
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,280
The Vietnam although a non state actor, you know, they

734
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,199
had a formal representation UH, the U s s R,

735
00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:46,519
the U s A, the People's Republic in China, the

736
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:53,920
UK and UH, the nascent, the UH, the maybe not

737
00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:59,039
maybe the believer I should say, like UH success or

738
00:45:59,079 --> 00:46:05,599
government in Vietnam to UH? What UH? What had been

739
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,960
the Beshy regime that was deposed by Japan, which says

740
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,880
I indicated at the start of this conversation at the

741
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,039
start of this talk only had a year to remain.

742
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:17,840
In nine to fifty five, there was the there's a

743
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:23,000
referendum in the emperor stepped down and Bao Dai was

744
00:46:23,039 --> 00:46:27,880
the emperor to be replaced by DM. What was the

745
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,920
status of Vietnam? And I am a be four. Well,

746
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,400
there was two regimes of Vietnam. There's a Democratic Republic

747
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,880
of Vietnam led by the Communist Workers Party UH, and

748
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:43,559
the State of Vietnam, again by Emperor Bao Dai. The

749
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:47,000
Democratic Republic of Vietnam was strongest in the north and

750
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,280
in the center of the country, but had some followers

751
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,519
in the south as well. So basically what you're talking

752
00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:54,880
about is you're talking about a country that's uh almost

753
00:46:55,039 --> 00:46:57,639
it's a political map of it looks almost like leopard

754
00:46:57,679 --> 00:47:02,679
spots at this point. It's okay, and UH the UH,

755
00:47:04,039 --> 00:47:07,000
the seat of soerity that's claimed by the emperor is

756
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:12,159
is really a sovereign in name only, Okay. At the

757
00:47:12,159 --> 00:47:17,159
time of the French defeat, sixty five thousand documented members

758
00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:20,599
the Workers Party lived south of the seventeenth Parallel, which

759
00:47:20,639 --> 00:47:24,559
is what became the divider between North and South Vietnam.

760
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,840
In the me calling Delta region alone, which is UH

761
00:47:28,639 --> 00:47:31,760
in in in northern South Vietnam, so I mean a

762
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:36,159
key strategic piece of real estate, there was thirty thousand

763
00:47:36,199 --> 00:47:41,039
party members concentrated. In addition, there was one hundred thousands

764
00:47:41,119 --> 00:47:43,400
others in the south whore you know, sympathized with the

765
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,559
Vietnam or who were you know, just uh, you know,

766
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:54,039
card carrying communists of varying stripes. In short, the UH,

767
00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:59,960
the the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, which whose sole representative

768
00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:06,440
was the Communists. They could claim membership throughout the entire country, okay,

769
00:48:08,559 --> 00:48:13,400
the the formal state of Vietnam led by the emperor.

770
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,519
Part of the problem with this was UH was part

771
00:48:18,519 --> 00:48:21,360
of the problem with characteristic of those resisting the communists

772
00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:28,119
UH movement globally, you're looking at a house divided. You know,

773
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,400
the war had World War two, had had destroyed the

774
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:35,360
right for all time, there was no there was no

775
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,119
real political right anymore. Okay, there's reactionary elements, you know

776
00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:42,800
who backs people like Emperor Bao Dai. You know, in

777
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,920
various monarchists. You know, there was people who didn't really

778
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,239
have a political consciousness, but they you know, they they

779
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,400
were hostile to Communists for self interested reasons. You know,

780
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:58,000
there wasn't there wasn't theresign really corralling these people. You know, like,

781
00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:00,960
you can't build a movement, particularly when you're facing off

782
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,760
against dedicated cadres. You can't just build. You can't just

783
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,320
build a political You can't just you can't build a

784
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:12,199
political army based on opposition to something, you know what

785
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,599
I mean? That was that more Nowhere is that more

786
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:18,840
evident than Vietnam. And I think that I can't really

787
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:25,280
be overstated because the the Vietnamese who resisted the Communists

788
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,519
really do get kind of a bum rap. You know,

789
00:49:27,519 --> 00:49:32,239
they're either they're rather casts as cowards or or just

790
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,440
you know, uh, you know, these kind of these kind

791
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:40,239
of third world uh kleptomaniacs or or just uh, you know,

792
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:45,280
pitiable kind of uh Lackey's and Koli's Like that's not

793
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,559
the case at all. I mean, they were a mixed bag,

794
00:49:47,679 --> 00:49:53,000
but there were they they had disadvantages from Jump and

795
00:49:53,039 --> 00:49:55,599
the people who should have been looking out for their

796
00:49:55,679 --> 00:50:00,039
interests most aggressively we're not doing so I think on

797
00:50:00,039 --> 00:50:02,360
on the military side, I think I think they were

798
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,679
the uh there was uh, there's plenty of American commanders

799
00:50:07,679 --> 00:50:10,039
in South Korea. South Korea really came to fight in

800
00:50:10,039 --> 00:50:13,719
the Vietnam War. They deployed there their forces around fifty

801
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,400
thousand men for countries as a Korea, it's a major deployment.

802
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,480
But on the military side, you had some very game,

803
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,360
uh commanders who very much wanted, you know, to give

804
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:29,159
the the South enemies what they needed to win and

805
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,639
uh and and led these guys into combat very briefly.

806
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:38,159
And these guys performed well with with honor. But uh,

807
00:50:38,199 --> 00:50:44,119
on the political side, you know, it's like what what's what?

808
00:50:44,119 --> 00:50:45,360
What what do you have in South? What do you

809
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,639
have and what became South Vietnam. It's like, okay, you

810
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,239
got you got a cadre of like kind of upper

811
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,280
league mobile or Kodrie kind of like upper lya mobile

812
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,760
Catholic types, which the French were still here. You know,

813
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,559
you got you you got, you got guys are basically

814
00:50:59,559 --> 00:51:01,559
small business man who don't like the Communis to take

815
00:51:01,599 --> 00:51:04,239
their stuff. You know. Uh, you got the Buddhists. We're

816
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,159
kind of like put upon by everybody. You know. You

817
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,280
got various minorities like a montag Yard Zone Sundry who

818
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,559
you know, realize their numbers up if the Communists win.

819
00:51:14,199 --> 00:51:16,960
But I mean there's I know, it probably sounds like

820
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:21,039
I'm somebody who's like totally fixated. I'm owing to you

821
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:25,119
know kind of the the central emphasis of my research

822
00:51:25,199 --> 00:51:28,760
being Nuremberg and and kind of the political theoretical trajectory

823
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,400
of things. Subsequent but imarious problems in the Cold War

824
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,559
really can be chalked up with the fact that, you know,

825
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:38,119
it's like, well, you know, if you're waging waging a

826
00:51:38,159 --> 00:51:41,079
war of excrimination against the political right, like it's not

827
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,760
that that doesn't you're you're not living all hubble lot

828
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,119
when you're trying to draw up on your own cadres

829
00:51:48,159 --> 00:51:53,599
to defeat the communists. And in Vietnam. Uh, that's a

830
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:58,639
topic that's not particularly emphasized, but I uh, I think

831
00:51:58,639 --> 00:52:01,880
it's more important than in some theaters like legit.

832
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: I I it uh.

833
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 2: And as we'll get into like later in the series,

834
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,360
America learned this lesson in part by the final phase

835
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,159
of the Cold War, and that's one of the reasons

836
00:52:17,159 --> 00:52:23,079
why the the that the conference are so effective in

837
00:52:23,119 --> 00:52:29,159
places like Nicaragua, where honestly, the the Santin Eastern regime,

838
00:52:29,679 --> 00:52:32,159
the story has probably invested more in that regime than

839
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,320
any other sense. Uh tens the Vietnam era. I mean,

840
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,679
it's as a client regime outside their media scare of influence.

841
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:40,000
I mean, but.

842
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 3: In any event, uh, the the the uh.

843
00:52:56,079 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: There's ne EVA conference basically all all it. All it

844
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:05,480
did was formed wise. It it formalized the division that

845
00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:09,880
was already burgening. You know even in the even before

846
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,559
the French had been it had been defeated at them Benfu.

847
00:53:13,679 --> 00:53:15,960
But what it did was it created this kind of

848
00:53:16,079 --> 00:53:20,760
arbitrary dividing line to create kind of the fiction that

849
00:53:21,119 --> 00:53:23,559
you know, there was there was two sovereign states here

850
00:53:23,599 --> 00:53:26,199
that were at war and like that was never that

851
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,440
was never the case. I mean, the Vietnam War was

852
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,280
a civil war. I mean it's not me. There's not

853
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,960
me having sympathy for the devil or or or you know,

854
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:40,599
trying to simplify the political strategic situation. A civil wars.

855
00:53:40,599 --> 00:53:44,719
One seems to be a civil war because great powers,

856
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,079
you know, converge, uh and and and and draw like

857
00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:50,599
an imaginary line on the center of the country. That's

858
00:53:50,679 --> 00:53:56,639
quite literally what happened. The fact, uh, the fact that

859
00:53:56,719 --> 00:54:00,119
you had you know, we'll get into this too. You know,

860
00:54:00,199 --> 00:54:03,079
North Vietnam was a crack army. It was an incredibly

861
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:07,679
game for US as well as like a truly conventional army.

862
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,880
This idea that Vietnam is just kind of like weird

863
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:14,599
guerrilla war, like that's bullshit. Yeah, there's aspects of asymmetrical war,

864
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:19,400
particularly in the Mekong Delta and particularly early on. Make

865
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,559
no mistake, the reason why Vietnam was so bloody and

866
00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:26,880
so brutal is because it was a conventional war where

867
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:33,440
firepower carried the day. The North Vietnamese UH the only

868
00:54:33,519 --> 00:54:36,639
way that uh, the only way that they could accomplish

869
00:54:36,679 --> 00:54:39,320
their political objectives was through a conventional military victory. And

870
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:45,000
they knew that. This is one of the reasons why

871
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:51,559
America deployed so heavily. The way that they did was

872
00:54:51,639 --> 00:54:55,400
that misguided uh not in and of itself. But we're

873
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,519
gonna get into why that didn't produce the results that

874
00:54:58,639 --> 00:55:04,599
it had to. But this is a This is also

875
00:55:04,679 --> 00:55:09,119
another example of how this you know, whether or not

876
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,320
we accept the kind of whether or not we accept

877
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:18,639
the quote democracy is utilized at present and even during

878
00:55:18,679 --> 00:55:21,360
the Cold War when it actually had, you know, some

879
00:55:21,559 --> 00:55:24,639
kind of identifiable meaning, even if it was only like

880
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:30,079
contra marcist Leninism. I returned to kind of the Schmidtian

881
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,320
notion that it doesn't do you any good at war

882
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,280
to have this kind of ongoing discussion in policy terms,

883
00:55:37,639 --> 00:55:39,840
because even if people are doing some in good faith,

884
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,280
which they never are, because this becomes another means of

885
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:47,440
exploiting divisions within the electorate for some sort of competitive advantage.

886
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:52,920
But even if that were not the case, you know

887
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:56,920
that you don't you don't endlessly debate military questions as

888
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,039
if they're you know, ordinary policy matters. And the fact

889
00:56:02,119 --> 00:56:06,360
that that's what a general war became led to some

890
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,320
really perverse outcomes, both on the battlefield and in terms

891
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,159
of what came to be considered a success in political terms.

892
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:19,679
And I think Vietnam was a rare situation where the

893
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:29,519
political and the military was questions were basically synonymous, and

894
00:56:30,039 --> 00:56:33,760
Depentagon on some level recognize that, but the way they

895
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,360
preceded in actual policy terms, whereas if these were two

896
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:42,119
discreet things that had success metrics independent of one another,

897
00:56:42,159 --> 00:56:44,880
if that makes any sense other than the more more

898
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,360
of what I mean in the next episode when some

899
00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:53,880
concrete examples emerged as to how this phenomenon played out.

900
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:57,480
But ultimately, and I'm gonna wrap this up in a minute,

901
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,199
what need of a court led to was this fiction

902
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:07,199
of two Vietnams, okay, and it created a pathway, or

903
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:15,280
at least a roadmap to uh unification that was supposed

904
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:20,199
to obviate any potential crisis of authority, but it UH,

905
00:57:21,519 --> 00:57:25,239
it was contingent upon it. It was, it was, it was,

906
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,440
It was contingent upon in plain language, you know, both

907
00:57:29,519 --> 00:57:35,400
purported sovereign governments advocating any use of ourn force in

908
00:57:35,559 --> 00:57:40,960
order to affect a political outcome and dominate UH the

909
00:57:41,079 --> 00:57:46,960
future state by way of a single party regime. And obviously,

910
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:52,239
you know, the Hanoi government always claimed that the Vietcong

911
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:56,000
or the National Liberation Front was was was independent of

912
00:57:56,719 --> 00:57:59,960
of of their authority. It was the spontaneous up art.

913
00:58:00,639 --> 00:58:04,159
There was some shoot to that, but obviously Hanoi cadres

914
00:58:04,239 --> 00:58:10,559
were operationally insinuated into the NLF. The Saygi regime always

915
00:58:10,599 --> 00:58:13,960
maintained that, you know, the NLF was nothing but UH

916
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,920
a direct client of Hanoi, and that so long as

917
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:22,280
it existed, it constituted a terrorist threat to the UH,

918
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,559
to the universe, to the unification process, and so none

919
00:58:25,559 --> 00:58:28,079
of the terms that Geneva agreement had to be honored.

920
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,920
So I mean that this this outcome was entirely predictable, okay,

921
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:36,559
I mean, there's there's basically no way that there's basically

922
00:58:36,559 --> 00:58:39,199
no way that any other, any other outcome would have

923
00:58:39,239 --> 00:58:43,320
been emerging. But that's that's why the kind of political

924
00:58:43,559 --> 00:58:48,639
UH foundation was so murky and and kind of unworkable,

925
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,239
you know it. And I also got to show you that,

926
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,000
you know, make this point a lot there's I generally

927
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,679
don't engage people because it's it's just like bad fait

928
00:58:57,719 --> 00:59:00,400
the bullshit. But people don't know what they're talking talking about,

929
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,199
like those who look, you know, they love the baby

930
00:59:02,199 --> 00:59:05,599
about colonialism and how bid this was. It's like, okay,

931
00:59:05,639 --> 00:59:07,719
so you really what I just described here, Like you

932
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,280
really think that's superior to having like the French administering

933
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,960
Vietnam like I I mean, like in what way, shape

934
00:59:14,039 --> 00:59:18,920
or form? You know? And you could say that, well,

935
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,159
that was just another example of you know, white Westerns

936
00:59:22,239 --> 00:59:25,320
imposing this paradigm like it really wasn't man. I mean,

937
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,159
the reason why it was so dysfunctional in Fubar is

938
00:59:28,159 --> 00:59:30,400
because you did have that. You did have Beijing like

939
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,400
having their say, you did Moscow having their say, and

940
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,960
obviously you know, in having their say, they were deliberately

941
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:41,320
sabotaging their proceedings and creating conditions we're in, you know,

942
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:47,000
UH A cadre based movement, could you know, effectively sabotage

943
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:49,719
any government that immerged in the South. But you can't.

944
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,440
You can't. You can't just you can't just shut down

945
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:55,480
a conversation by saying, oh, that's just like something the

946
00:59:55,519 --> 00:59:57,920
white man imposed, I didn't know China, you know. So

947
00:59:58,079 --> 01:00:02,480
it's everybody's always people act like this kind of you know,

948
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,519
people act like the nineteenth century regime that endured really

949
01:00:05,599 --> 01:00:11,519
till nineteen nineteen ninety twenty, you know, like you know, Britain, France, Germany,

950
01:00:12,039 --> 01:00:18,079
you know, dividing up the world. Uh, in these in

951
01:00:18,159 --> 01:00:20,559
these key theaters, Like was this like a bold situation?

952
01:00:20,679 --> 01:00:22,360
It's like, well, what's your alternative? They're like they never

953
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,719
they never have one. You know. It's like this idea

954
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:27,440
like the world's kind of exists in sits you and

955
01:00:27,599 --> 01:00:29,960
like it's it's like a place of plenty in peace,

956
01:00:30,199 --> 01:00:32,599
but then people screwed up just but like imposing politics

957
01:00:32,679 --> 01:00:35,440
upon it. It's like I think ontologically, like I think people,

958
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,760
it's like don't like a lot of people and people

959
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,159
are particularly dumb. They just like can't grasp like the

960
01:00:40,239 --> 01:00:43,199
ontological reality of politics. I mean, I don't know, but

961
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:49,199
at any event, let's uh, let's let's wrap up for

962
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:52,800
now because uh uh I want to shift gears with

963
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:54,119
what we get to do next. And I realized this

964
01:00:54,159 --> 01:00:55,800
might have been a little bit dry, But again, like

965
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,440
I said, I'm gonna reference all this stuff when we

966
01:00:58,519 --> 01:01:03,039
get into the the uh you know, discussing the battlefield

967
01:01:03,079 --> 01:01:05,880
situation and uh and and kind of the political uh

968
01:01:06,159 --> 01:01:09,559
maneuverings of mister Kennedy and mister Jonas and mister Nixon,

969
01:01:09,599 --> 01:01:12,280
so it becomes important. But yeah, I I hope, uh,

970
01:01:12,639 --> 01:01:14,559
I hope this didn't bore people at death. I hope

971
01:01:14,599 --> 01:01:17,440
they got something out of it relating to the topic.

972
01:01:19,119 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: So just run through or anything you want to promote,

973
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:24,039
and we'll go.

974
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed, I mean, good things are happening.

975
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,440
We uh you know, like I said, within the next

976
01:01:31,519 --> 01:01:34,119
week or so, we're launching the YouTube channel at one last,

977
01:01:35,719 --> 01:01:38,519
steel Storm two is dropping this month. To be on

978
01:01:38,599 --> 01:01:41,480
the lookout for that. I've got some big stuff happening

979
01:01:41,519 --> 01:01:45,440
on the podcast. But I'm gonna announce that formally on

980
01:01:45,719 --> 01:01:48,880
uh on the next pod episode, which you're gonna become

981
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,880
more frequent. But you'll you'll uh, I don't want to

982
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,400
I want to get into that like on the pod.

983
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:56,599
But yeah, that's all I got. You can find me

984
01:01:56,679 --> 01:02:01,559
on Twitter at Triskelly and Jahad the he is A seven.

985
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,239
Find me at Substack Real Thomas seven seven seven dot

986
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:07,159
substack dot com.

987
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,159
Speaker 1: Thomas, I appreciate it. Until the next time.

988
01:02:12,159 --> 01:02:13,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, likewise, thank you people.

989
01:02:14,639 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: This is part seven of the Cold War series. Thomas

990
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:18,840
seven seven seven.

991
01:02:19,119 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 2: How are you doing, everybody? I'm okay man today. The

992
01:02:24,519 --> 01:02:26,559
issue with the Vietnam conflict, as we kind of got

993
01:02:26,599 --> 01:02:32,480
into last episode, it's not just that the the sort

994
01:02:32,519 --> 01:02:35,800
of controversy around it that endures to this day, you know,

995
01:02:36,039 --> 01:02:38,800
in terms of ethics and in terms of policy critiques.

996
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,400
I mean, something has contrived. Some of it's not. But

997
01:02:41,559 --> 01:02:44,199
even if we take people's sort of values and partisan

998
01:02:45,119 --> 01:02:50,239
ideas are the equation entirely, the Vietnam conflict straddled, for

999
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,280
lack of a better way to characterize it or describe it,

1000
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:59,000
in multiple epochs, in in in terms of political and

1001
01:02:59,039 --> 01:03:02,599
military affairs, you know, as Vietnam jumped off and earned

1002
01:03:02,599 --> 01:03:04,920
it says, we'll get into what which was very much

1003
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:07,280
during the Kennedy administration. I know some people have this

1004
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:11,639
sort of like, uh, you know, this this uh, this

1005
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:15,320
revisionist notion that O. Kennedy was trying to disengage from Vietnam.

1006
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,079
That's not true at all. But even if regardless of that,

1007
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,840
the uh uh, a paradigm shift in military affairs was

1008
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:29,880
underway from the post new look Eisenhower era, you know, uh,

1009
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,000
which was kind of bookended by the Cuba crisis, which

1010
01:03:33,079 --> 01:03:34,519
you know put an end to that kind of thinking,

1011
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:40,239
you know, and and from that kind of like the

1012
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:43,920
first phase of the American War, you know, like sixty

1013
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:47,239
two to sixty five, I guess you could say represented

1014
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:51,760
you know, that is sort of a gray area between

1015
01:03:52,199 --> 01:03:57,159
you know, sort of policy orientations the uh, the kind

1016
01:03:57,199 --> 01:03:59,800
of revolutionary period in the Third World where like you know,

1017
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:01,440
the Color Revolt, if you want to look at it,

1018
01:04:01,559 --> 01:04:05,559
like that was an underway, full swing. You know what

1019
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:10,159
the what what remained of the Western Powers were still engaged,

1020
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:14,239
you know, uh, Spain, Portugal, France who just you know

1021
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,280
been issued to crushing defeat at the end ben Fu.

1022
01:04:17,159 --> 01:04:19,800
You know, they were trying to they were trying to

1023
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,679
find a way to you know, utilize firepower and the

1024
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:27,400
technological ads that they enjoyed, you know, in order to

1025
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:33,079
in order to advantage them and in counterinsurgency warfare. Vietnam

1026
01:04:33,239 --> 01:04:36,559
ended in the nineteen seventies as the era of true

1027
01:04:36,599 --> 01:04:39,000
strategic parody. It was emerging from the United States and

1028
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:44,360
the Soviet Union and major powers were disengaging from the

1029
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:48,039
Third World in direct capacities like owing not just the

1030
01:04:48,159 --> 01:04:51,079
fact that you know, independence was causing more and more

1031
01:04:51,159 --> 01:04:54,239
conflict diets to emerge where escalation could have brought the

1032
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,960
superpowers into direct collision, like in nineteen seventy three in

1033
01:04:58,039 --> 01:05:01,000
the Middle East, but also it's because you know, there's

1034
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,000
a certain weariness for you know, this kind of constant

1035
01:05:04,239 --> 01:05:08,599
engagement and act in combat and in multiple in multiple featers.

1036
01:05:10,039 --> 01:05:12,639
So Vietnam is important for all those kinds of reasons,

1037
01:05:12,719 --> 01:05:19,960
but also just uh it there's because of all those

1038
01:05:20,039 --> 01:05:23,519
things that just describe and kind of the you know,

1039
01:05:23,639 --> 01:05:28,719
the historical situatedness of the conflict in like temporally, I mean,

1040
01:05:29,679 --> 01:05:31,559
there was there's a lot of data to be derived

1041
01:05:31,639 --> 01:05:35,039
from it about about warfare. You know, when the roamies

1042
01:05:35,079 --> 01:05:38,039
the road in terms of combat and things and technology

1043
01:05:38,159 --> 01:05:42,320
and how these things impact impact the modern battlefield. But

1044
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:46,199
also you can extravlate things about the American system and

1045
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:54,039
how particularly uh, particularly wartime administrations. Uh, the politics uh

1046
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:57,320
is very much insinuated into the decision making process. I

1047
01:05:57,360 --> 01:06:00,159
don't mean high politics, although that is the case too.

1048
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:04,800
I mean these kind of like domestic intrigues still over

1049
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:08,199
into the decision making process as regards you know, war

1050
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,880
and peace decisions. And that's very bad. And obviously this

1051
01:06:12,519 --> 01:06:15,079
this gained a lot of momentum, you know, during the

1052
01:06:15,159 --> 01:06:18,039
kind of meat you know, uh, the rise of of

1053
01:06:18,280 --> 01:06:21,079
of the you know, the modern or contemporary not modern

1054
01:06:21,239 --> 01:06:24,480
contemporary like news cycle, which really began in the sixties

1055
01:06:24,519 --> 01:06:27,199
and seventies, you know, like reacing its zenith, you know

1056
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,199
in like nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one where he had

1057
01:06:29,239 --> 01:06:31,360
the true twenty var news cycle and the Gulf War

1058
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:34,480
on TV. I mean, now obviously that's done. I mean

1059
01:06:34,559 --> 01:06:37,679
there's certain like like media is ubiquitous, like in a

1060
01:06:37,719 --> 01:06:40,000
way never it's never met before. But there's not as

1061
01:06:40,079 --> 01:06:42,920
bully pulpit of like the news media, you know, the

1062
01:06:43,039 --> 01:06:46,239
terrestrial news media that's what everybody watches and that controls

1063
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,719
you know, narratives and the parameters of discourse. Like That's

1064
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:54,639
what I was talking about. But to dive into the topic.

1065
01:06:56,360 --> 01:07:00,079
There there's nobody who's more associated with Vietnam than and

1066
01:07:00,199 --> 01:07:04,360
Robert Man, okay, and Errol Morris, who I'm a great

1067
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:06,440
I've got great scheme for I mean, this was weird

1068
01:07:06,599 --> 01:07:10,000
nevish type, but he he makes great films. You know,

1069
01:07:10,079 --> 01:07:14,280
he did a documentary on Fred Later you know who

1070
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:19,159
authored the report. He did a documentary on on Donald Rumsfeld,

1071
01:07:19,719 --> 01:07:21,199
you know, in his I mean not to go too

1072
01:07:21,239 --> 01:07:24,679
far afield from our topic, but Errol Morris really pioneered

1073
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:30,079
the documentary style of filmmaking in a way that's become convention,

1074
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:34,440
and him letting his subject and his you know, obviously

1075
01:07:34,599 --> 01:07:41,519
his primary uh, his primary efforts are biographical of historical

1076
01:07:41,599 --> 01:07:44,079
personages or of people are just interested in, like in

1077
01:07:44,159 --> 01:07:46,760
the case of Laketer, but putting the camera on the

1078
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:50,360
subject and letting the subject just testify, and Morris asking

1079
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,119
his questions off camera or the or the you know,

1080
01:07:53,199 --> 01:07:56,320
the filmmaker or the interviewer asking off camera like Morris

1081
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,480
and vented that style. But he I highly recommend anybody

1082
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:02,719
The Fog of War. I think it was released in

1083
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,039
two thousand and three. That's a pretty good kind of

1084
01:08:06,119 --> 01:08:09,760
capsule summary of McNamara's career from you know, it's the

1085
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:13,079
testimony of McNamara himself. But because it's only like a

1086
01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:14,760
two and a half hour film, obviously a lot of

1087
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:19,000
things are left out. But I highly recommend that to

1088
01:08:19,039 --> 01:08:22,000
anybody who wants to learn more about macnamara. So let's

1089
01:08:22,039 --> 01:08:27,039
talk about the man himself, Robert S. McNamara the S

1090
01:08:27,119 --> 01:08:31,720
stance for strange. His middle name was Strange, Robert Strange McNamara.

1091
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,479
He was the longest serving Secretary of Defense to this day,

1092
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:43,520
from nineteen sixty one to sixty eight. Nowadays, even administrations

1093
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:48,279
that have a comparatively strong mandate, you know, they played

1094
01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:53,840
musical chairs with their cabinet postings. But even even uh,

1095
01:08:54,359 --> 01:08:57,439
even in McNamara's epoch, it was unheard of for a

1096
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,520
Secretary of Defense to serve that long. Okay, like, why

1097
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,680
did he serve this long? Well? Mat the Mari team

1098
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:05,920
from Humble oura Jins. He was born in San Francisco

1099
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:09,000
in nineteen sixteen. His father was the sales manager of

1100
01:09:09,119 --> 01:09:11,960
some kind of wholesale firm that literally made shoes and

1101
01:09:12,119 --> 01:09:15,199
other things like this, okay, like shoes and boots for

1102
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:19,520
you know, like nurses and factory workers, So I mean

1103
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:21,600
like part of the upper kind of like the lower

1104
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:26,960
middle class, upper working class. He proved himself to be

1105
01:09:27,039 --> 01:09:32,039
a prodigy of swords with mathematics what we consider to

1106
01:09:32,119 --> 01:09:37,520
be logistics and data management, well, I mean logitics. Is

1107
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,039
this in those days we consided to be like data

1108
01:09:39,119 --> 01:09:43,960
management today. He graduated ninety thirty seven from Berkeley, went

1109
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,920
out of the Harvard Business School in ninth and graduate

1110
01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:51,199
ninety thirty nine. Obviously, right around this time, you know,

1111
01:09:51,399 --> 01:09:54,560
the New Dealers War was was jumping off. It was

1112
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,600
only about you know, two years away. And when Magnamar

1113
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,840
found himself in uniform, he ended up in the Army

1114
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,680
Air Corps. And guys of his kind of caliber and

1115
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:10,319
intellect tended to be shuttled that way for obvious reasons.

1116
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:12,760
And he uh he entered the army as a captain

1117
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,000
in forty three. He served under Curtis Lamy, who then

1118
01:10:16,119 --> 01:10:20,239
was a colonel with macnamarin La May. And it's interesting

1119
01:10:20,279 --> 01:10:23,199
because macdernala May and and and McNamara gets into this

1120
01:10:23,319 --> 01:10:26,319
in the in the Fog of War documentary, Like mcnamver

1121
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:28,720
is probably the closest thing Lea May had like a friend,

1122
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,279
but like mac namers, you know, and he's like, I,

1123
01:10:31,479 --> 01:10:33,079
I I don't. I felt like I didn't really know

1124
01:10:33,159 --> 01:10:35,600
the man very well, you know, at all. And then

1125
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:38,880
it's like when when Lamy died, apparently May's widow, kind

1126
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:40,920
of mac namaran is like, yeah, Curtis said, you know,

1127
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:43,359
he loved you. He said all these great things about you,

1128
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:46,239
and mc namurrs like, really, like I idly heard the

1129
01:10:46,279 --> 01:10:49,399
guys say more than one word, but any of it.

1130
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,119
Matthamas as a young officer kind of a defecto adjutant

1131
01:10:54,239 --> 01:10:59,479
to le May. He he kind of demonstrated his chops

1132
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:04,640
for uh, for military logistics and just kind of you know,

1133
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:12,239
applied applied analysis of of of of you know, the

1134
01:11:12,319 --> 01:11:15,119
mission at hand and in terms of like getting results

1135
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:18,600
within the you know, rationale of what of of what

1136
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:22,239
armyra coor was charged within the Pacific. Le May and

1137
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:24,560
mag the mirror. They came up with a way to

1138
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:29,119
assault the Japanese mainland from the Marianas Islands instead of

1139
01:11:29,199 --> 01:11:33,359
having to you know, jumped the Himalayas it has been

1140
01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:35,720
his had been done. And this o the things I

1141
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:39,039
don't quite understand, like you know, fuel consumption versus load,

1142
01:11:39,119 --> 01:11:42,520
you know, versus you know, travel within or rebolvable, the

1143
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,000
jet stream and all these kinds of things. You know,

1144
01:11:45,119 --> 01:11:51,720
the complex the complex calculus of the then nascent science

1145
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:57,439
of uh military aviation. Okay, so the magna mirror. The

1146
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,800
guy really was a polymath. Okay, I mean he and

1147
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:04,600
he demonstrated that really by the time he was about

1148
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,520
thirty years old. Well, my man, I got discharged. He

1149
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,439
ended up at the Ford Motor Company in nineteen forty six.

1150
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:15,000
And uh, the Ford Motor Company. It seems strange these

1151
01:12:15,039 --> 01:12:17,000
days it was like a college reason't really meaning thing.

1152
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:22,359
But in those days when it was a rare credential

1153
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:24,560
and when uh, unless you were one of these kind

1154
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,479
of rich boys went to Yale or something, if you

1155
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:28,319
went to college on merit, it's because you were a

1156
01:12:28,359 --> 01:12:33,680
guy who really really knew his stuff. There was very

1157
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,560
view there's there's there's a dearth of of of managers

1158
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:41,279
and an executive officers at Ford Motor Company were college educated.

1159
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:46,279
So guys like mcnamurr was in demand. He got recruited

1160
01:12:46,359 --> 01:12:50,399
dinner in the as a manager of planning and financial analysis.

1161
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:56,279
He he he advanced rapidly by nineteen sixty when he

1162
01:12:56,359 --> 01:12:58,840
was in his early when yeah, it was in his

1163
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:02,479
late Yeah, it was nearly forties, been like forty three

1164
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,159
forty four. Uh, he became the first president of Ford

1165
01:13:05,239 --> 01:13:07,840
Motor Company outside the Ford family, Okay, which was a

1166
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,680
huge deal. And this was November ninth, which is a

1167
01:13:12,119 --> 01:13:14,760
date that I think we're all familiar with, and if

1168
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:17,239
you were not before, I hope that after watching stuff

1169
01:13:17,279 --> 01:13:20,199
that Pete nos I do, you're familiar with it now.

1170
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:25,760
November nineth nineties sixty was when he became first president

1171
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:31,039
of Ford. This was one day after after JFK was elected.

1172
01:13:32,319 --> 01:13:36,920
And uh, during his uh, during his tenure at Ford,

1173
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,239
both as what we now consider a quant and like

1174
01:13:41,279 --> 01:13:44,840
a corporate accountant, and during his brief tenure as president,

1175
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,199
he's credited with basically like making Ford competitive in the

1176
01:13:48,239 --> 01:13:51,439
post war period, like after like the government pork like

1177
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:55,880
went away obviously, and this in the nineteen fifties and

1178
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:59,000
early sixties, like a huge amount of American automakers like

1179
01:13:59,159 --> 01:14:01,600
just cease towigs. It's okay, I mean the all these

1180
01:14:01,640 --> 01:14:03,439
kind of a kind of brand. Some of them endured

1181
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:05,760
like ame c endured to like the seventies or eighties,

1182
01:14:06,199 --> 01:14:09,520
but like there's a huge number of of automotive brands

1183
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:13,359
that went under during the nineteen fifties. It was I

1184
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:17,239
mean that, uh, I means one part, one part market corrective,

1185
01:14:17,359 --> 01:14:21,560
one part that just you know, just the scaling back

1186
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:25,119
of of the subsidies they'd enjoyed, you know, during the

1187
01:14:25,199 --> 01:14:29,119
kind of staladays of the new deal for big manufacturing firms.

1188
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:34,520
But in any event, JFK. Whatever we can say about him,

1189
01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:36,239
and I don't want to. I don't want to get

1190
01:14:36,279 --> 01:14:41,840
into a discussion on the man's merit or character or

1191
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:46,119
that of his politics. One thing I said disputable is

1192
01:14:46,159 --> 01:14:50,399
that uh, he he with the exception of of of

1193
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:52,760
the kind of naked nepotism in the case of his brother.

1194
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:54,359
But I consider that to be more of a matter

1195
01:14:54,439 --> 01:14:58,159
of self preservation, you know, with installing him and as

1196
01:14:58,199 --> 01:15:02,680
the Attorney general, with the exception to that. Kennedy or

1197
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:06,319
and ors advisors, they had a remarkable eye for cabinet talent,

1198
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:12,479
and Kennedy's uh Kennedy's first choice for Secretary of Defense

1199
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,680
was Robert A. Love It, who'd been the secondary defense

1200
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:19,199
under Truman. Interestingly from fifty one to fifty three, height

1201
01:15:19,279 --> 01:15:22,399
of the Korean War, so obviously Kennedy was looking at

1202
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:25,039
it for a man who had served as a wartime

1203
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:30,119
Secretary of Defense, Okay, which indicates the kind of hard

1204
01:15:30,239 --> 01:15:35,920
realism pre Cuba that Kennedy's not conventionally credited with. But

1205
01:15:36,199 --> 01:15:38,079
that I think it's clear if people know how to

1206
01:15:38,119 --> 01:15:41,079
read between the lines. But the reason why he broke

1207
01:15:41,199 --> 01:15:43,760
love at first is because he didn't. He nobody thought

1208
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:45,840
that man Kimura would leave for a mortar company. So

1209
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:48,439
it's like it wasn't even it wasn't even like consideration,

1210
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:51,079
not on grounds his mirror or anything. It's just that,

1211
01:15:51,199 --> 01:15:54,720
you know, the guy with a freaking all star and

1212
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:57,239
love it also have been appropiated. George Marshall and I.

1213
01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,520
I don't think the Marshall Plan was this great power coup.

1214
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:03,039
I don't think it accomplished much of anything other than

1215
01:16:04,199 --> 01:16:07,399
other than putting some shine on the occupation regime, which

1216
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:11,239
really which needed to be rehabilitated, UH in order to

1217
01:16:11,319 --> 01:16:16,159
get the Boomist Republic to play ball the way the

1218
01:16:16,239 --> 01:16:19,640
Truman and Hour and the Truman and later I administrations

1219
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:23,359
needed it to. But that's another story. George Marshall heed

1220
01:16:23,399 --> 01:16:27,039
trumant his clout in those days, and UH A lot

1221
01:16:27,119 --> 01:16:29,319
aside in the fact again that he you know, he

1222
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,479
uh he cut his teeth as a wartime defense secretary

1223
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:36,720
public the fact that prior to that he serves Marshall's

1224
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:39,239
Undersecretary of Defense, and he was very much a protegy

1225
01:16:39,319 --> 01:16:43,920
of the guy. But uh a lot of declined. He's like,

1226
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,720
you know, out of raw fatigue, I think. But also

1227
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:51,359
he said, you know, I you uh, you should, you

1228
01:16:51,399 --> 01:16:55,520
should you should poach magnam Era because he'll probably take it.

1229
01:16:56,239 --> 01:17:00,920
And uh, Kennedy went through started shreiver uh and offered

1230
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:03,720
him the Secretary of Defense position or the Secretary of

1231
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:07,560
the Treasury. Magnumer immediately accepted the appointment of Secretary of Defense.

1232
01:17:10,279 --> 01:17:13,640
Was Magma knowledgeable about defense matter as well? I mean,

1233
01:17:15,359 --> 01:17:20,359
I mean compared to compared to anybody since uh Cheney.

1234
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:22,920
Let me qualify that. I mean, I hope people think

1235
01:17:23,079 --> 01:17:26,600
not not in proud of that Cheney's a total piece

1236
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,920
of shit. When Chaney was Secretary of Defense under Bush

1237
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:34,399
forty three, I think he very much had a sense

1238
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:38,279
of what needed to be done in the transition era

1239
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:41,439
from the UH from the from the as the Cold

1240
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:45,720
Wars literally ending, Okay, And I only invoked him because

1241
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:48,680
regardless of the guy's character, which I think we're gonna

1242
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:53,439
agree is not something laudable, and whatever other issues he has,

1243
01:17:54,359 --> 01:17:56,439
he was a highly qualified Secretary of Defense. No, we

1244
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:58,359
did not come up through the military, but he was

1245
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:02,199
something of a polymath, and he understood military matters as

1246
01:18:02,199 --> 01:18:04,880
we are as policy or the roomies the road in

1247
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:08,640
a really splendid way. Subsequently, I think the Secretary Defense

1248
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:12,399
these days is something is is kind of uh, it's

1249
01:18:12,399 --> 01:18:14,920
almost like it's almost like kremlinology. You gotta look through

1250
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:18,039
the kind of a pig. There's always like sinecures that

1251
01:18:18,079 --> 01:18:22,039
don't mean anything anymore, and people's titles don't actually indicate

1252
01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:24,880
what their roles in fact are, like I think I

1253
01:18:24,960 --> 01:18:27,680
think Robert Gates was the de facto like shadow foreign

1254
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:30,680
policy president. I also think that Secretary Defense has become

1255
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:33,840
Secretary of State in a real way, which is very strange.

1256
01:18:34,359 --> 01:18:39,479
But in the Kennedy era, these cabinet positions carried a

1257
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:43,399
lot more weight and uh, there's a lot more transparency

1258
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:45,239
in terms of the man who said who held the

1259
01:18:45,359 --> 01:18:48,840
office was very much the decision maker, with some mirrow exceptions.

1260
01:18:49,399 --> 01:18:53,760
You know, uh, there when you have an executive. It

1261
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:57,760
was as much of a who was as much of

1262
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:03,159
a hands on the sort of authoritarian his FDR. Yeah,

1263
01:19:03,199 --> 01:19:05,920
they're very much for some people are ciphers and key roles,

1264
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:08,199
because he simply didn't want them to do anything. But

1265
01:19:08,920 --> 01:19:12,960
exempting that, you know, you, uh, if you've got a

1266
01:19:13,079 --> 01:19:15,439
pointed Secretary of Defense, you were a pretty heavy hitter.

1267
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:19,560
And magnaver was one of the fourth Secretary of Defense

1268
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:23,399
because until you know, the until Nuremberg was Secretary of

1269
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:27,560
War was the cabinet posting. But that's that's uh, there's

1270
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,039
a lot to unpack there, frankly, but that's that's outside

1271
01:19:30,039 --> 01:19:32,880
our scope. But in any event, mcmaarr was kind of

1272
01:19:32,880 --> 01:19:36,520
a perfect choice for this arrow, okay, because uh, the

1273
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:39,279
technology and I mean this was this was the dawn

1274
01:19:39,319 --> 01:19:42,119
of the information age, Okay, like computing as we know

1275
01:19:42,239 --> 01:19:44,880
it was very much just kind of beginning then, and

1276
01:19:44,960 --> 01:19:48,439
it begun during the Second World War, but in an

1277
01:19:48,439 --> 01:19:54,199
applied capacity it was emergent. Uh, macnamara understood logistics better

1278
01:19:54,239 --> 01:19:57,920
than anybody. He understood highly scaled systems and management of

1279
01:19:58,039 --> 01:20:01,279
those systems and how do I identify variables and the

1280
01:20:01,319 --> 01:20:06,479
bouted rationality of the system in question and what it

1281
01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:09,439
was purposed for. You can identify like what was most

1282
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:14,439
essential to production. And that's an odd skill set. That's

1283
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:17,439
kind of like what management comes down to in the

1284
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:21,039
burn up sense of managerialism. I mean when I say management,

1285
01:20:21,319 --> 01:20:23,760
I don't mean some dick who like manages a home depot,

1286
01:20:24,119 --> 01:20:25,840
and I don't mean like the way you eat like

1287
01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:28,960
fatty char ladies talking about management. I mean in terms

1288
01:20:29,039 --> 01:20:33,680
of you know, actual actually knowing how to knowing how

1289
01:20:33,720 --> 01:20:37,119
to optimize the performance of of a both the human

1290
01:20:37,159 --> 01:20:42,479
element and the autonomous element within some highly scaled structure,

1291
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:45,960
you know, with all kinds of variables, some which are

1292
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:49,359
more essential than others, you know, but the core ones

1293
01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:54,039
that facilitate productivity and the most concrete ways you know,

1294
01:20:54,119 --> 01:20:58,039
need be identified by most people can't do that, and

1295
01:20:58,159 --> 01:21:04,720
particularly in un member his day. Yeah, as it just indicated,

1296
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:06,720
you know, this was like the dawn of the information age,

1297
01:21:07,279 --> 01:21:10,840
and you know technology there's there's gonna punctuated equal every

1298
01:21:10,880 --> 01:21:12,680
of the technology and then we can all agree on that.

1299
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:17,720
You know. Uh, it's like once there's there'll be one

1300
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:22,199
innovation and then you know that that that that leads

1301
01:21:22,239 --> 01:21:25,159
to others. You know, in a very kind of in

1302
01:21:25,239 --> 01:21:28,119
a very kind of in a very kind of rampid capacity.

1303
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:31,199
This was under this what was underway, But you didn't

1304
01:21:31,239 --> 01:21:34,039
have at your disposal like all this kind of you know,

1305
01:21:34,159 --> 01:21:37,399
you didn't. You didn't have consumer tech that we take

1306
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:40,079
for granted and big business in those days. You know,

1307
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,359
like you didn't you you you're basically like using like

1308
01:21:43,399 --> 01:21:46,680
a pen and paper an antarchist like proverbially and sometimes literally,

1309
01:21:47,239 --> 01:21:51,359
you know, to handle like massive realms of data. So, uh,

1310
01:21:52,079 --> 01:21:54,720
the kind of like the right man in the role

1311
01:21:55,279 --> 01:22:00,239
and the aromastos men not for conspiratorial reasons but rand

1312
01:22:00,239 --> 01:22:03,960
their pological ones. You know that it was this was

1313
01:22:04,039 --> 01:22:06,279
this was more essential then than even today, although it's

1314
01:22:06,279 --> 01:22:12,039
still like remains essential. But Macnamer's philosophy, in his own words,

1315
01:22:13,119 --> 01:22:16,520
was uh. He said, the senator defense in the then

1316
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:20,600
current era had to take an quote active role. He said, uh,

1317
01:22:21,279 --> 01:22:25,920
you know, he aimed to provide aggressive leadership, questioning, suggesting alternatives,

1318
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,319
proposing objectives, and stimulating progress, just as he had done

1319
01:22:29,319 --> 01:22:32,359
at Ford Motor Company. That might sound corny on its

1320
01:22:32,399 --> 01:22:36,960
face or like corporate pr like magnamr Is the Concert

1321
01:22:37,039 --> 01:22:39,720
company man, but in his case, I think he really

1322
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,159
believed that, and honestly, I think in a lot of

1323
01:22:42,239 --> 01:22:49,159
respects that's like what he accomplished. He rejected radical organizational changes. Look,

1324
01:22:49,239 --> 01:22:54,000
I just indicated there was there's a lot of people, uh,

1325
01:22:54,319 --> 01:22:58,079
both within the military establishment and also within the policy establishment.

1326
01:22:58,239 --> 01:23:00,399
And this was very incestuous in some case is too,

1327
01:23:01,359 --> 01:23:04,479
but on Capitol Hill there's all kinds of people who

1328
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:07,560
are trying to force uh, you know, these kind of

1329
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:11,520
top down changes to the military apparatus. You know the

1330
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:15,520
command structure, you know the way forces it being were organized,

1331
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:20,000
you know, uh at at that division level, and you know, uh,

1332
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:23,439
and and what weapons systems we're gonna get privileged over others?

1333
01:23:25,119 --> 01:23:26,800
There even there was really is that there was a

1334
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:32,079
there was there was debate about the draft and its future. Okay,

1335
01:23:32,279 --> 01:23:36,199
uh this Uh there was a committee I cannot remember

1336
01:23:36,239 --> 01:23:39,640
the name of it, and I'm sorry, headed by a senator,

1337
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:46,479
uh Stewart Synington. He wanted to his committee with him

1338
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:51,479
leading the charge. They wanted to abolish the discrete military departments.

1339
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:54,520
They wanted to replace the joint chief the single chief

1340
01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:57,359
of staff and you know not and and and and

1341
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:00,560
give him dominion over they wanted to like an inner

1342
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:05,880
service command structure. Okay, you know, you abolish discrete ranks

1343
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:08,600
between the services. You have like this unitary command structure

1344
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:10,800
that went to this one man who in turned of

1345
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:14,760
accountable only to the president and his national security cabin which,

1346
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:17,680
in my opinion is a terrible idea, but like this

1347
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:19,520
this was kind of thing among other stuff that was

1348
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:22,079
being taken seriously then, you know, and mat the mirror

1349
01:24:22,279 --> 01:24:24,000
as soon as he took office, He's like, no, that

1350
01:24:24,239 --> 01:24:26,359
that ship's over with, you know, like, shut the fuck up.

1351
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:29,960
That's not happening. You know, we're not well, we maybe

1352
01:24:30,039 --> 01:24:32,319
will be you know, we we maybe will be fighting

1353
01:24:32,359 --> 01:24:34,760
World War three at you know, in a few years,

1354
01:24:35,600 --> 01:24:38,760
we're probably gonna be at war, you know, in in

1355
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:42,279
a secondary theater, you know, within months. We're not when

1356
01:24:42,359 --> 01:24:45,319
we're not gonna completely upset the We're not gonna cpletely

1357
01:24:45,399 --> 01:24:48,439
upset the wagon and uh for the apple cart, you know,

1358
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:51,359
and and start playing games with you know, with with

1359
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:56,600
force structure organization. And that was and that and that

1360
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,680
actually that that was that that that was huge, okay,

1361
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:06,000
because things would have I Simington's idea was particularly stupid,

1362
01:25:06,119 --> 01:25:08,600
I think, but there's all kinds there was all kinds

1363
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:11,640
of stuff being bandied about that wouldn't really that wouldn't

1364
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:16,560
really kind of upset the ability of h of the

1365
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:22,640
entire defense establishment to react. And really from from after

1366
01:25:22,720 --> 01:25:25,840
the Cuba crisis, I mean in seventy three and then

1367
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:28,279
an eighty three, I mean, yeah, there was there was

1368
01:25:28,319 --> 01:25:30,760
the punctity crisis of a strategic nature and that were

1369
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:34,840
truly critical, but about every two years, like in between,

1370
01:25:35,279 --> 01:25:36,680
like you there were there was some kind of like

1371
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:41,439
what you can think of as like brush fire uh uh,

1372
01:25:42,600 --> 01:25:46,960
crisis of a secondary in a secondary theater that that nonetheless,

1373
01:25:47,159 --> 01:25:50,479
you know, like required an active response. And this ultimately,

1374
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:51,840
this is one of the things that led to like

1375
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:54,640
the creation a special Operations Command, but that that stuff

1376
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:56,840
had the scope too, you know, like a unitary command

1377
01:25:57,159 --> 01:26:01,720
or special operations forces. Unfortunately, a lot of disasters happened

1378
01:26:01,800 --> 01:26:05,520
for that to become uh implemented. But that's kind of

1379
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:08,199
always the way it is, not just with the military.

1380
01:26:09,319 --> 01:26:13,520
But uh, what was Kennedy's polity policy envision If you

1381
01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:16,319
want to understand Vietnam's escalation, I don't just mean the

1382
01:26:16,359 --> 01:26:22,199
punctioning of escalation. That was yielded or exploited, depending on

1383
01:26:22,640 --> 01:26:28,359
your perspective, by the Gulf of Tonkin resolution Vietnam. True

1384
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:33,720
engagement with Vietnam went began with Eisenhower, Okay, in a

1385
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:36,159
real capacity. And when when when Kennedy took the oath

1386
01:26:36,199 --> 01:26:40,640
of office, there was there was special Operations forces types

1387
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:43,960
on the ground who were directly engaged with the communists. Okay.

1388
01:26:44,039 --> 01:26:46,520
So I mean it's this this idea that you know,

1389
01:26:47,279 --> 01:26:49,239
this idea that you know, like I said before we

1390
01:26:49,319 --> 01:26:52,880
went live, Oh, Kennedy was trying to disengage from Sally Stasia.

1391
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:56,119
But then you know, Johnson, this this this bad guy,

1392
01:26:56,319 --> 01:27:00,640
you know, just engage us, engage them. Is the country

1393
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:03,039
at war? Said he could you know, make money by

1394
01:27:03,239 --> 01:27:06,359
you know, bell helicopters, selling selling stuff to the Pentagon

1395
01:27:06,479 --> 01:27:09,000
or whatever the fuck? Alverst Stone and Howard is in

1396
01:27:09,159 --> 01:27:15,399
claim that did not happen. Kennedy UH in his UH,

1397
01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:18,800
in his UH speech to Congress in March twenty eighth,

1398
01:27:19,640 --> 01:27:23,439
the UH, the core emphasis of the speech was defense.

1399
01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:26,520
It was Cold war, it was UH, it was war

1400
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,960
in peace, it was power pilotic stuff. In part because

1401
01:27:30,000 --> 01:27:32,159
you know, Nickson was always not just kind of on

1402
01:27:32,239 --> 01:27:36,279
a campaign trail. I mean, Dixon was not just always

1403
01:27:36,279 --> 01:27:38,520
trying to portray Kennedy as some as some punk rich

1404
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:40,600
kid who was went by in the years he was

1405
01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:43,359
He's basically he basically was always calling him a pussy,

1406
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,600
you know, and saying like he's soft on communism. You know,

1407
01:27:48,199 --> 01:27:50,479
he's a rich kid. He he doesn't he does not

1408
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:54,600
have the presence to command, nor does he have like

1409
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:58,039
the knowledge, you know, which is not wrong, because Kennedy

1410
01:27:58,119 --> 01:28:00,760
was a lot of things, but he was like stay

1411
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:02,880
in the Kennedy's he was a gangster's son, and he

1412
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:04,840
was a war hero when he started in the brown Water.

1413
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:07,680
Like the dude was kind of a bit you know,

1414
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:10,600
like yeah, like yeah, he wasn't like a big pussy

1415
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:13,880
or whatever. I mean, yeah, but the but I mean

1416
01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:16,520
politics is politics and being what it is. That's you know,

1417
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:20,119
and I mean it wasn't just Nix and other people too.

1418
01:28:20,279 --> 01:28:23,359
They you know, Kennedy, he he had kind of like

1419
01:28:23,399 --> 01:28:26,439
a boyish charm like our phony might think that is

1420
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:29,159
like he did not you know, he didn't come off

1421
01:28:29,239 --> 01:28:33,000
as uh this like a heavy personage and especially succeeding

1422
01:28:33,079 --> 01:28:36,760
Eisenhower like this, like the Soviets were genuinely afraid of Eisenhower,

1423
01:28:38,159 --> 01:28:41,079
and uh, I think for good reason. Like I'm not,

1424
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:43,640
I don't think eys I was this rare genius like

1425
01:28:43,760 --> 01:28:45,720
some people do. And uh, I think in some ways

1426
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:48,920
he was an ugly eye in terms of his character.

1427
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:53,800
But he uh, he was a ruthless so ob, you know,

1428
01:28:53,880 --> 01:28:57,039
and he he definitely had a kind of command presence.

1429
01:28:57,079 --> 01:29:00,439
I mean that goes without saying. But okay, the out

1430
01:29:00,479 --> 01:29:05,640
line to to uh the March twenty eight, ninety sixty

1431
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:09,720
one speech when he outlined, as he said, look, massive

1432
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:12,680
retaliation is a doctrin and he's like, that's over. Okay.

1433
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:15,039
It's like, so is the new look as it's been

1434
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:21,800
you know, as it was uh euphemistically assigned. You know,

1435
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:24,359
He's like, we're not we're not gonna rely on on

1436
01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:28,119
first un splendid first strike capability, nor are we just

1437
01:29:28,159 --> 01:29:31,159
gonna rely on the nuclear deterrent, you know in low

1438
01:29:31,199 --> 01:29:35,520
A conventional forces, like it's not realistic, it's totally flexible

1439
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:40,039
and and frankly it's uh and frankly it's it's it's

1440
01:29:40,119 --> 01:29:43,319
totally it's it's it's it's it's morally bankrupt. You know,

1441
01:29:43,399 --> 01:29:46,880
you don't you don't you don't keep the peace by

1442
01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:50,239
threatening that several states of the world look like massive

1443
01:29:50,479 --> 01:29:55,560
like genocidal counter value with Saul, you know, like as

1444
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:59,600
a standing policy, but it uh, I mean it being

1445
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:04,479
someone for but there really was like there, like the

1446
01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:06,560
kind of MIDEU that Herman Khan came out of. And

1447
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:08,720
I think Herman Khan was great, and I'm not putting

1448
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:10,760
shit in him at all, but either the MIDEU of

1449
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,560
Khan and Van Neuman, like there were guys like like

1450
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:19,640
genuinely autistic guys, uh who'd uh you know, come up

1451
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:23,600
through uh academia and and game theory and stuff. Who

1452
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:27,960
who were suggesting things that you know, made sense in

1453
01:30:28,119 --> 01:30:31,079
terms of you know, the the raw variables of of

1454
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:35,560
balance of forces and capabilities or were just like where

1455
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:39,960
just like grossly moral offensive, morally offensive in terms of

1456
01:30:40,479 --> 01:30:43,359
like uh, in terms of policy orientation, but I mean

1457
01:30:43,399 --> 01:30:47,159
like doctor Strange Love Like yeah, it's like it seems

1458
01:30:47,199 --> 01:30:49,640
like over the top ridiculous, like something that piecedic movie,

1459
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:51,840
but it was like ranging on like a real phenomon,

1460
01:30:52,359 --> 01:30:56,199
you know, like uh, which is which is kind of

1461
01:30:56,199 --> 01:30:59,439
funny but also kind of fucked up. But uh, the

1462
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:04,439
he Kennedy also, to his credit, and this wasn't realized

1463
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:08,319
until Carter and a presidential director of fifty eight and

1464
01:31:08,359 --> 01:31:11,159
fifty nine. And obviously the technology at that point it

1465
01:31:11,239 --> 01:31:14,520
made it far more critical for human decision makers to

1466
01:31:14,560 --> 01:31:19,159
assert control over nuclear arms and commanding control. But things

1467
01:31:19,239 --> 01:31:23,439
were already moving in that direction whereby not only were

1468
01:31:24,199 --> 01:31:27,960
we we're we're human decision makers being sidelined, but the

1469
01:31:28,399 --> 01:31:33,159
military and specifically Strategic Air Command was very much taking

1470
01:31:33,199 --> 01:31:37,680
control of these processes. And Kennedy, you know, said that

1471
01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:41,239
Scott to stop, you know, and and mag and Urra

1472
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:43,760
was exactly the man to kind of see to that,

1473
01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:48,600
you know, in terms of structuring forces and protocol strategic forces,

1474
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:53,239
I mean to uh, to obviate the threat of of

1475
01:31:53,359 --> 01:31:56,640
civilian control and the commander in chief role being appropriated

1476
01:31:56,720 --> 01:32:03,359
by by a military element. He manter I believed it

1477
01:32:03,439 --> 01:32:08,399
more to obviate that than anybody until Carter. And as

1478
01:32:08,439 --> 01:32:10,439
we get into the Carter era, we're gonna talk about

1479
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:13,279
like all that cool stuff. I think it's cool fancied

1480
01:32:13,359 --> 01:32:16,319
by the late Cold War and the kind of strategic

1481
01:32:16,439 --> 01:32:21,560
nuclear paradigm and and artificial intelligence there in some people

1482
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:23,720
will probably think that's boring as fuck, but I think

1483
01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:29,159
it's really cool. But in any event, what's key, uh

1484
01:32:30,159 --> 01:32:38,159
about Kennedy's policy speech on defense was uh, he said, quote,

1485
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,199
we need to operate with an eye to to quote

1486
01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:45,720
prevent the steady erosion of the free world through limited wars. Now,

1487
01:32:45,800 --> 01:32:48,279
this is the crux of why America went to war

1488
01:32:48,359 --> 01:32:51,640
in Vietnam. Okay. The way you gotta look at the

1489
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:56,159
Cold War is that obviously there's the ongoing strategic nuclear

1490
01:32:56,319 --> 01:32:59,880
threat of you know, a total war between WARSAW picked

1491
01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:03,199
and NATO, which would be catastrophic. I mean that goes

1492
01:33:03,279 --> 01:33:07,960
out saying, but the real issue on as a basic

1493
01:33:08,039 --> 01:33:16,119
stability ensued between the superpowers, it could be imagined and

1494
01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:22,760
the team b the you know, the the TV exercise

1495
01:33:24,119 --> 01:33:27,880
and the men who uh, the men who organized and

1496
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:31,359
facilitated it and who were instrumentally getting regular elected. Frankly,

1497
01:33:33,119 --> 01:33:36,159
the scenario these guys painted was like, look, imagine in

1498
01:33:36,239 --> 01:33:41,399
America where essentially all of Asia save South Korea and Japan,

1499
01:33:42,199 --> 01:33:46,199
all of Latin America, say, Mexico, all of Africa save

1500
01:33:46,359 --> 01:33:49,560
like a handful of the Arab states who are nonetheless

1501
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:53,680
like Soviet aligned, you know, goes Communists or becomes basically

1502
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:57,840
sympathetic to the communist perspective and is either staked out,

1503
01:33:58,039 --> 01:34:01,720
you know, a position of absolute which in the Cold War,

1504
01:34:02,239 --> 01:34:05,199
or as a veil itself as a Soviet proxy. Like, yeah,

1505
01:34:05,279 --> 01:34:09,520
America would survive in those circumstances, but it basically be

1506
01:34:09,640 --> 01:34:12,079
as a garrison state that was kind of second rate

1507
01:34:12,199 --> 01:34:15,680
power within the Western hemisphere, you know, surrounded by a

1508
01:34:15,760 --> 01:34:20,159
hostile Like that's a very that that's a very dangerous

1509
01:34:20,199 --> 01:34:22,760
world to live in. And a lot of the things

1510
01:34:22,800 --> 01:34:24,520
we could even if even if some kind of perennial

1511
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:27,000
piece could be achieved, a lot of the things we

1512
01:34:27,119 --> 01:34:30,880
take for granted, we just would not exist, you know.

1513
01:34:31,159 --> 01:34:34,640
Uh that would it kind of frozen American tech and

1514
01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:40,000
American wealth at a certain point because just by virtual

1515
01:34:40,000 --> 01:34:42,359
of dominating the rest of the planet, you know, like

1516
01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:44,319
the Soviet Union could have kind of like remade the

1517
01:34:44,399 --> 01:34:46,680
world in its own image, kind of like how America

1518
01:34:46,840 --> 01:34:48,880
like remade the world in its own image after nineteen

1519
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:50,880
eighty nine, which is not a good thing. But my

1520
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:54,800
point being, like people act like the Cold War was

1521
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:57,800
this kind of like ridiculous paranoid fantasy, or that it

1522
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:00,680
was like this excuse to like so munitions and helllicopters

1523
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:04,760
you know, by defense contractors, like it was in fact

1524
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:08,680
the real thing, and this was this was the potential outcome.

1525
01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:15,439
Really until until Gorbachev and until the Stowe's folded their flag.

1526
01:35:15,840 --> 01:35:18,279
It wasn't this binary thing like either you know, total

1527
01:35:18,359 --> 01:35:22,239
war or peace or you know, ah, this communism doesn't work. Yeah,

1528
01:35:22,239 --> 01:35:24,000
it doesn't work, but it doesn't matter all because of

1529
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:27,319
the ship doesn't work that you know. Nevertheless, like indoors

1530
01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:31,800
or shuffles on like like some like like some fucking

1531
01:35:32,399 --> 01:35:35,600
Frankenstein's monster or something like that. That was a very

1532
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:39,720
real possibility. And Kennedy's uh, what he was saying here

1533
01:35:39,840 --> 01:35:44,560
is look, if we ignore, if if we ignore theaters

1534
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:47,000
like you know, China, if we ignore theaters it's up

1535
01:35:47,039 --> 01:35:51,880
there in Africa. If we ignore especially you know, uh,

1536
01:35:52,479 --> 01:35:54,840
developments in their own backyard. I mean, that's two folds

1537
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:57,600
on the road doctrine. But that aside a minute. You know,

1538
01:35:57,640 --> 01:35:59,119
it's like we're gonna die like at death by a

1539
01:35:59,159 --> 01:36:02,479
thousand cuts. That's regards our ability to you know, influence

1540
01:36:02,560 --> 01:36:04,760
the course of politics and the rest of his planet.

1541
01:36:05,239 --> 01:36:06,479
You know, and you do you really want to be

1542
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:09,760
like a garrison state, albeit a continent side garrison states

1543
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:12,680
as large as all deficient, self sufficient, But you do

1544
01:36:12,680 --> 01:36:15,119
you really want to be like like the American island

1545
01:36:15,239 --> 01:36:17,960
in like the Red World. I mean that that was

1546
01:36:19,039 --> 01:36:21,680
that was not only poignant, but he was very realistic.

1547
01:36:21,800 --> 01:36:25,399
And I give Kennedy aught of props for that for

1548
01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:27,920
that speech. Like I said, I'm reading wind the lions

1549
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:30,960
as he intended, Gogress read wind the lines. But that's

1550
01:36:32,079 --> 01:36:34,479
that's I'm not a Kennedy fan or apologist at all.

1551
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:38,119
But not only does that go ahead, I'm.

1552
01:36:37,960 --> 01:36:41,800
Speaker 1: Sorry, let me ask, Okay, he said that the Cold

1553
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:45,800
War was a very real thing. Is that because of

1554
01:36:48,359 --> 01:36:48,520
was it?

1555
01:36:49,199 --> 01:36:49,239
Speaker 2: Was?

1556
01:36:49,279 --> 01:36:56,960
Speaker 1: It a continuing ideological war between the the neo conservatives

1557
01:36:57,479 --> 01:37:02,560
and who started them and the Soviet Union that whole time.

1558
01:37:04,399 --> 01:37:07,199
Speaker 2: Well, there's wars within that, there's wars within that camp.

1559
01:37:07,279 --> 01:37:08,439
I mean, do you want to know what I think?

1560
01:37:10,119 --> 01:37:13,560
I agree with the Yaki's perspective that the Doctor's plots

1561
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:17,319
like that epoch, not that incident itself, but that incident

1562
01:37:17,479 --> 01:37:20,199
was demonstrative like a break within the communist camp, like

1563
01:37:20,239 --> 01:37:23,520
if the leadership cast Okay, and that's also one of

1564
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:25,479
the reasons why, like Israel up and just became like

1565
01:37:25,600 --> 01:37:29,880
massively anti communists, like all of a sudden. Okay, so

1566
01:37:30,039 --> 01:37:34,880
yeah there was that. The Soviet Union became this kind

1567
01:37:34,880 --> 01:37:38,319
of strange thing, like, yeah, it was. It was. It

1568
01:37:38,439 --> 01:37:41,119
clung to revolutionary socialism till the end of its life.

1569
01:37:41,439 --> 01:37:44,159
But like was it a Marxist Leninist state, Like as

1570
01:37:44,279 --> 01:37:48,560
much as such things existed, it was. But uh, you

1571
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:50,560
know what the Soviet Union really had going for it

1572
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:55,800
was the kind of Soviet DDR model that was really

1573
01:37:55,840 --> 01:37:58,720
appealing in the people in the Third World. You know,

1574
01:37:59,039 --> 01:38:01,600
like uh, Olive from North when he was under cover

1575
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:06,479
like doing verty shady things. When he landed the Monagua airport,

1576
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:10,600
he relaid back under like like State Department cover roof.

1577
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:13,039
He liked their teleux or whatever. He's like, a Managua

1578
01:38:13,119 --> 01:38:16,079
airport it's a mirror. It's He's like it's a mirror

1579
01:38:16,199 --> 01:38:19,199
image of a checkpoint Charlie in the inner German border.

1580
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:21,640
You know, He's like these a bunch of nicarag was

1581
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:24,159
running around acting like they're the Stazi. You know. He's

1582
01:38:24,239 --> 01:38:27,319
like this is and I mean that spoke for itself.

1583
01:38:28,000 --> 01:38:32,439
So even when even when Stalinism, even when the even

1584
01:38:32,479 --> 01:38:35,159
when the even when the war's up pack kind of

1585
01:38:35,199 --> 01:38:38,199
like even after sixty eight, and I mean even before

1586
01:38:38,399 --> 01:38:40,920
like putting six days on the formal breach, you know,

1587
01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:43,359
with the new Left, even when like nobody in France,

1588
01:38:43,520 --> 01:38:46,359
nobody in the Netherlands, like even comedies, I mean like

1589
01:38:46,600 --> 01:38:49,479
looked like the Soviet Union for inspiration, like you better

1590
01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:52,640
believe that, like hundreds of millions of people in Africa

1591
01:38:52,720 --> 01:38:56,199
and Latin America, you know, in Indonesia, like they did,

1592
01:38:56,720 --> 01:38:58,880
you know, like that's they looked at that as like wow,

1593
01:38:58,960 --> 01:39:01,359
this this is a great model of progress. And you

1594
01:39:01,439 --> 01:39:04,119
know where we we don't need to suffer, you know,

1595
01:39:04,319 --> 01:39:07,399
the we don't need to suffer the pain of exploitation

1596
01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:10,680
to reach you know, uh, the bounty of of of

1597
01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:15,640
technive technology and and plenty and modern productive, productive techniques.

1598
01:39:15,840 --> 01:39:17,199
You know, all we have to do is sign on

1599
01:39:17,319 --> 01:39:19,399
with the Soviet block and we'll get all those things.

1600
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:22,359
And plus like you know, they're gonna they're gonna lead us,

1601
01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:25,000
They're gonna lead us to this tilleric utopia because eventually

1602
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:28,600
we're gonna fight America. I mean like that, and yeah,

1603
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:33,399
within that, like the godfathers and neo conservitism, like they

1604
01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:37,199
became like on that target list ironically, Like that's why

1605
01:39:37,239 --> 01:39:39,520
I like communists like a Frankenstein monster. Like a lot

1606
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:42,760
of people who are like called which is the meaning

1607
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:44,199
was term, but a lot of people are called like

1608
01:39:44,279 --> 01:39:47,119
anti Semitic people are like, oh, how can you say that?

1609
01:39:47,199 --> 01:39:49,680
You know, Communism was you know, emerged from the Jewish

1610
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:53,119
world of social existence. The Soviet Union hated Jews. It's like, well,

1611
01:39:53,640 --> 01:39:56,960
there's such a thing as like, you know, there's such

1612
01:39:56,960 --> 01:39:59,039
a thing as you know, a bale of prague. Okay,

1613
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:03,199
like you create something and it gets out of control

1614
01:40:03,680 --> 01:40:07,520
or it turns on you. But it's also too like

1615
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:10,800
ideologies aren't any like one thing. It's like you can't

1616
01:40:10,840 --> 01:40:14,359
say like communism was Jewish or just not Jewish or that.

1617
01:40:14,840 --> 01:40:17,920
You know, the coalition that created it in Russia, you know,

1618
01:40:18,039 --> 01:40:20,319
consisted of like X Y Z kind of people and

1619
01:40:20,399 --> 01:40:24,319
nobody else. The Soviet it was a weird coalition of

1620
01:40:24,920 --> 01:40:29,720
like indigenous Slavs, uh, you know who who hated the

1621
01:40:29,840 --> 01:40:34,600
European overcast, you know, Uh, they were aligned with a

1622
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:39,319
slightly more cosmopolitan element, you know of of Ashkenazi Jews

1623
01:40:39,359 --> 01:40:44,239
who hated that same overcast for different reasons. And these

1624
01:40:44,239 --> 01:40:47,119
people don't really like each other, but they had common

1625
01:40:47,239 --> 01:40:50,920
enemies and common interests. And when that fell apart in

1626
01:40:51,199 --> 01:40:55,079
in large measure because uh, the situation of the Jewish

1627
01:40:55,119 --> 01:40:57,840
people are internationally totally changed after Nuremberg again for the

1628
01:40:57,920 --> 01:41:02,159
Delphin Declaration. Yeah, they stop keeping up appearances at all.

1629
01:41:04,399 --> 01:41:06,439
And yeah, I agree with YACKI basically that if you

1630
01:41:06,479 --> 01:41:10,560
were on the right after a after about ninety fifty

1631
01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:13,479
three fifty four forty five, they were running around like

1632
01:41:13,479 --> 01:41:15,960
a John Bircher like calling for the death of Ivan,

1633
01:41:16,119 --> 01:41:19,600
you were, you were a fucking idiot, I mean basically

1634
01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:25,560
because it Russian's definitely like the Soviet Union definitely wasn't it.

1635
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:28,680
Then Russian honestly is not really your friend if you're

1636
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:32,079
a white western man. But they're not really your enemy either,

1637
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:36,479
I mean, and it's they as a hedge against people

1638
01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:39,000
who really are your enemy. Is better that they existently

1639
01:41:39,079 --> 01:41:42,960
not exist. But that's probably a subject for whatever episode.

1640
01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:46,960
But yeah, the but the Cold War, the way to

1641
01:41:47,079 --> 01:41:50,439
understand it in very raw terms, especially in the Kennedy

1642
01:41:50,479 --> 01:41:53,520
era before things got a little bit more complicated through

1643
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:55,720
the taunt and then like when the Colder jumped off

1644
01:41:55,760 --> 01:42:02,159
again into Earnest in ninety it's not it's not reductions

1645
01:42:02,239 --> 01:42:05,079
to say that there really was a quote colored revolt underway.

1646
01:42:06,279 --> 01:42:10,079
This was the question of the day in power, political

1647
01:42:10,119 --> 01:42:13,760
and military terms. It was very much led from Moscow.

1648
01:42:14,199 --> 01:42:22,840
It was facilitated by warsaw pacts, arms, logistics, equipment, foodstuffs, technology, manpower, everything,

1649
01:42:23,760 --> 01:42:28,920
and that's what was on the table. Yeah, there was

1650
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:32,760
no deeper nuances to like the ideology that had created it.

1651
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:39,199
But in uh and as the world that stood when

1652
01:42:39,239 --> 01:42:41,720
Kennedy took the oath of office, like the Cold War

1653
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:43,760
was what I just described, and that was a very

1654
01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:47,479
real thing, you know, Like I said, there were yeah,

1655
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:50,159
guys like Yaki, guys I got a Reamer Yaqui was

1656
01:42:50,199 --> 01:42:51,720
dead by then. But what he'd been saying before, and

1657
01:42:51,760 --> 01:42:56,279
what Reamer was saying until the d die was you know, uh,

1658
01:42:57,159 --> 01:42:59,359
you get if you're a European, you know who's under

1659
01:42:59,359 --> 01:43:02,000
occupation and which all which they all were. I mean

1660
01:43:02,039 --> 01:43:04,000
it's still this day, but in those days, you know,

1661
01:43:04,079 --> 01:43:07,119
the Red Army was also in Berlin. But uh, you know,

1662
01:43:07,159 --> 01:43:08,760
I said, you need to be very careful about what

1663
01:43:08,840 --> 01:43:13,079
you wished for and in and and and then advocating that,

1664
01:43:13,239 --> 01:43:16,000
you know, the Soviet Union should be destroyed because it's

1665
01:43:16,039 --> 01:43:18,399
really the only hedge against the traditional enemy of Europe.

1666
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:22,479
And I agree with that, but uh, for our purposes,

1667
01:43:24,840 --> 01:43:27,000
I have besides the world situation as it was in

1668
01:43:27,119 --> 01:43:29,439
ken of the other of office, because like people this

1669
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:32,399
idea like oh, you know, what a bunch of horse ship,

1670
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:34,560
we got to go fight the communists and now or

1671
01:43:34,680 --> 01:43:36,159
or they'll be over here, like that was not what

1672
01:43:36,319 --> 01:43:38,159
was on the table. And that's not what anybody thought.

1673
01:43:38,680 --> 01:43:41,359
And the potredominant theory. Wasn't this like crazy thing that

1674
01:43:41,520 --> 01:43:44,399
John Bircher's thought or that crazy general's thought, like this

1675
01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:47,560
was actually happening like huge swaths of the planet or

1676
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:53,880
going red. Okay, Stalinism had real cachet and you know,

1677
01:43:54,159 --> 01:43:59,920
a huge in in in in one huge global popular

1678
01:44:01,079 --> 01:44:05,319
and the entire like Raizon Detras. Opposedly, neurim Berg was

1679
01:44:05,359 --> 01:44:07,640
we're gonna create this world society. I know, we even

1680
01:44:07,680 --> 01:44:10,880
have the United Nations and so okay, well if like

1681
01:44:11,399 --> 01:44:13,600
you know, at that at that time, and then there's

1682
01:44:13,600 --> 01:44:16,119
about like and I think there's about like five billion

1683
01:44:16,159 --> 01:44:18,399
people in the world. It's like, well, if like four

1684
01:44:18,479 --> 01:44:21,439
billion of those five million people like think that communism

1685
01:44:21,520 --> 01:44:24,359
is great, you've got a problem. Okay. I mean that's

1686
01:44:24,359 --> 01:44:27,239
what the Cold War was about. It wasn't about you know,

1687
01:44:27,239 --> 01:44:30,279
when I walk outside Terry Hood, Indiana, you know there's

1688
01:44:30,279 --> 01:44:32,279
gonna be some there's gonna be some chinaman with a

1689
01:44:32,319 --> 01:44:34,119
red star in his head and being it. You know,

1690
01:44:34,199 --> 01:44:36,800
it's gonna like fucking you know, charge me and and

1691
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:40,960
like you know, turn me into fucking sashimi and like

1692
01:44:41,119 --> 01:44:43,640
enslave my wife and you know, make everybody's go to

1693
01:44:43,680 --> 01:44:46,359
the drive in and watch like shitty communist movies. Nobody likes.

1694
01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:49,640
Like that's not what people thought. Maybe some people thought that,

1695
01:44:49,880 --> 01:44:51,920
but that's not you know, like that, that's not what

1696
01:44:52,119 --> 01:44:54,119
underlay the Cold War, and like people like, man.

1697
01:44:55,399 --> 01:44:57,439
Speaker 1: Well, let me let me ask you another question. It

1698
01:44:57,840 --> 01:45:00,680
almost makes it almost makes it sound like you could,

1699
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:07,279
like somebody would say that they're reactionaries and how you

1700
01:45:07,359 --> 01:45:09,920
know how people on the right are always just we're

1701
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:14,439
all reactionaries. It makes it sound like if the if

1702
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:17,720
the third world is turning red and these dominoes are falling,

1703
01:45:18,399 --> 01:45:21,039
there's a reason why they're doing it, and they're reacting

1704
01:45:21,279 --> 01:45:27,520
to what they're seeing happening to Europe. Basically, yeah, and.

1705
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:29,640
Speaker 2: It seems like that's the case too. And that's why

1706
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:32,079
I mean today there's something that is I spend a

1707
01:45:32,119 --> 01:45:35,079
lot of time. I spent a lot of time reading

1708
01:45:35,119 --> 01:45:36,920
about and kind of studying as much as they can

1709
01:45:37,079 --> 01:45:40,800
what uh what what what what some of these like

1710
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:43,319
Middle Eastern Nazi the actors are doing. And a bunch

1711
01:45:43,359 --> 01:45:45,920
of these guys like a popular Front deliberies at Palestine

1712
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:49,560
General Command, like who who are big time a lie

1713
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:53,159
with Worsaw act like they flipped his lomic like very

1714
01:45:53,279 --> 01:45:57,000
profoundly okay, and like very immediately after the wall came

1715
01:45:57,039 --> 01:45:58,680
now and like some people be like, oh, you know,

1716
01:45:59,479 --> 01:46:02,199
those guys just being mercenary and doing what they have

1717
01:46:02,319 --> 01:46:04,359
to do to keep you know, money and weapons flowing.

1718
01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:06,600
I don't think it's that simple, man. I think to

1719
01:46:06,680 --> 01:46:09,359
your point, a lot of these guys they were basically

1720
01:46:10,279 --> 01:46:13,359
they basically had contempt for like the features of capitalist

1721
01:46:13,439 --> 01:46:17,600
modernity that they considered to be like most offensive. You know,

1722
01:46:17,640 --> 01:46:21,279
whether it's like sexual essentiousness or you know, like the

1723
01:46:21,399 --> 01:46:24,680
erosion of uh of of meaningful roles for men and

1724
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:29,399
women or you know, like mixing between races or you know, pornography,

1725
01:46:31,159 --> 01:46:34,600
and I there there is a certain puritanical aspect of

1726
01:46:34,680 --> 01:46:37,760
communism as it manifested in the Third World, but even otherwise,

1727
01:46:38,199 --> 01:46:40,600
you know, like that was one of the things the

1728
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:43,720
uh that was that was a cause of refrain. There's

1729
01:46:43,760 --> 01:46:45,960
like I'll get the fuck device and stuff in the DDR,

1730
01:46:46,479 --> 01:46:49,600
you know, like I mean there was like not like narcotics,

1731
01:46:49,640 --> 01:46:52,680
but like prostitution and sex stuff and all kinds of

1732
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:57,600
really crummy social ills. But at least the official line

1733
01:46:57,800 --> 01:47:02,960
was that this stuff nasty, it's it's it's it's it's deplorable. Uh,

1734
01:47:03,239 --> 01:47:05,119
this is the kind of thing characteristic in the Capital

1735
01:47:05,239 --> 01:47:07,000
is West, Like we don't have any truck with that,

1736
01:47:07,239 --> 01:47:09,640
and and this kind of thing should should be identified

1737
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:12,960
and stopped out wherever we find it. So yeah, I

1738
01:47:13,000 --> 01:47:15,640
think there's an aspect of that and uh and yeah,

1739
01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:18,039
that's but that was that was the jockey's old point

1740
01:47:18,199 --> 01:47:23,000
and some of the people he inspired subsequent, like Thompson

1741
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:26,840
and like and like James Maddle who a lot of

1742
01:47:26,840 --> 01:47:29,079
people think it was a crank. I actually hold him

1743
01:47:29,079 --> 01:47:32,159
in a lot of steam. Uh. They that that was

1744
01:47:32,199 --> 01:47:34,640
the point is the op points that Washington and New

1745
01:47:34,760 --> 01:47:38,560
Yorker are in Los Angeles are or help a lot

1746
01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:41,479
more quote unquote red and Moscow in East Berlin ever

1747
01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:44,359
were ever will be. So yeah, there's an aspect of

1748
01:47:44,399 --> 01:47:46,439
that that's a kind of a good question, and it's

1749
01:47:46,479 --> 01:47:49,279
like a it's like a question, is it quite It's

1750
01:47:49,279 --> 01:47:52,359
like a theoretical philosophical aspect to it, like we just raised,

1751
01:47:52,399 --> 01:47:56,279
but there's also like a practical aspect and in concrete terms,

1752
01:47:56,319 --> 01:47:58,079
the way people we are like leading their lives, you know,

1753
01:47:58,159 --> 01:47:59,720
like you raised two that's what That's why I raised

1754
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:02,880
the use of these Middle Eastern peoples and stuff, because

1755
01:48:03,319 --> 01:48:04,520
I was I think they're kind of like a bell

1756
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:07,720
weather for sort of radical tendencies. But I mean, that's

1757
01:48:08,319 --> 01:48:10,039
that's my I've got my own thoughts on that, and

1758
01:48:10,119 --> 01:48:12,520
that's that is like way too far outside of scope.

1759
01:48:12,600 --> 01:48:18,319
But yeah, i'll uh i'll uh i'll uh I'll try.

1760
01:48:18,359 --> 01:48:19,760
I'll try and get to the point and I wrap

1761
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:21,600
this up to realize, been a rambling for a minute,

1762
01:48:22,439 --> 01:48:22,720
but the.

1763
01:48:22,880 --> 01:48:25,960
Speaker 1: Uh, I can ask questions to get people doing that.

1764
01:48:27,199 --> 01:48:30,640
Speaker 2: But no, no, I I I appreciate you asking questions, man,

1765
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:32,520
Like I I appreciate that, like the give and take.

1766
01:48:32,600 --> 01:48:34,560
I mean you, I mean you always you always in

1767
01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:37,399
situ way like meaningful stuff that i't a lot of

1768
01:48:37,439 --> 01:48:40,000
time I haven't thought about. But also it's just, uh

1769
01:48:40,159 --> 01:48:42,960
it helps me because I I have wore sometimes that

1770
01:48:43,520 --> 01:48:45,600
like I go out too many tangents because my brain

1771
01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:49,800
just sort of works that way. But yeah, I way

1772
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:54,640
interject whenever you want and don't. I'm not gonna feel

1773
01:48:54,680 --> 01:49:02,239
explated or something. But the uh, the the uh yeah,

1774
01:49:02,319 --> 01:49:05,399
Kennedy's basically I mean would basically underlay all this too

1775
01:49:06,119 --> 01:49:10,439
in uh again kind of like raw strategic terms too,

1776
01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:15,920
like without I mean, aside from the politics. Kennedy realized

1777
01:49:15,920 --> 01:49:19,479
that you need a lot of you for lack of

1778
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:23,079
I forgive me if this sounds like flippant or silly,

1779
01:49:23,239 --> 01:49:25,800
but you need like a number of mini options in

1780
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:29,119
military affairs in terms of your response. Okay, it can't

1781
01:49:29,199 --> 01:49:33,560
just be either like massive assault, massive counter value assault,

1782
01:49:33,840 --> 01:49:36,600
or some kind of like inglorious retreat or doing nothing,

1783
01:49:37,119 --> 01:49:40,159
you know. I mean that's uh, it's like Highlight said

1784
01:49:40,199 --> 01:49:42,920
the Starship Troopers like this, which is like a thinly

1785
01:49:43,000 --> 01:49:46,920
veiled metaphor. I think the critique of a of a

1786
01:49:47,319 --> 01:49:52,760
like Eisenhower, Truman and Eisenhower era military thinking. Like some

1787
01:49:52,920 --> 01:49:56,560
young officer Cannedy says it like this grizzled like invagery captain, Like,

1788
01:49:56,640 --> 01:49:58,680
what the hell, what the hell do we need conventional

1789
01:49:58,760 --> 01:50:01,199
invagery for? And the captain it's like, let me ask

1790
01:50:01,239 --> 01:50:03,680
you something like if a child's misbehaving, you cut his

1791
01:50:03,800 --> 01:50:06,119
head off or you stink him, you know, like you

1792
01:50:07,520 --> 01:50:09,760
you know, you know, you'll just like maintain a hatchets

1793
01:50:09,800 --> 01:50:13,880
like in the misbehaving child. You know. That's uh which

1794
01:50:13,920 --> 01:50:18,399
seems like the Coby kind of silly, but it's actually poignant.

1795
01:50:18,479 --> 01:50:24,000
And uh yeah, that's something we take for granted as

1796
01:50:24,199 --> 01:50:26,960
the way things develop, particularly through the Reagan era and

1797
01:50:27,000 --> 01:50:29,600
in terms of military affairs. I mean, but in the

1798
01:50:29,720 --> 01:50:32,720
nineteen and in the nineteen fifties, really through like fifteen

1799
01:50:32,760 --> 01:50:35,840
ninety sixty, people were literally talking that way, like hey,

1800
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:38,600
we've got nuclear arms we can threaten anybody with, you know,

1801
01:50:38,720 --> 01:50:42,000
basically like counter value genocide, Like why why do we

1802
01:50:42,079 --> 01:50:44,399
need why do we need invest around with conventional forces?

1803
01:50:44,920 --> 01:50:48,920
You know? And that's that seems crazy, but that but

1804
01:50:49,600 --> 01:50:51,520
it wasn't just I'm not talking about like I'm not

1805
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:54,279
just talking about like goofballs like in the media or

1806
01:50:54,359 --> 01:50:56,720
something like you equivalent of like internet guys of the day,

1807
01:50:57,119 --> 01:51:00,239
Like I mean like like actual guys would out and

1808
01:51:00,279 --> 01:51:03,960
policymaking circles, you know, and guys who had uh, who

1809
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:06,760
had a chest full of ribbons and and and a

1810
01:51:06,840 --> 01:51:09,600
half full of brass like you know, fucking talking this

1811
01:51:09,720 --> 01:51:17,439
white man. But it's Macnamara. And then that's why we'll

1812
01:51:17,439 --> 01:51:19,239
get into this I g as we as we proceed

1813
01:51:19,359 --> 01:51:23,039
in our series. But the roots of the revolution and

1814
01:51:23,119 --> 01:51:27,960
military affairs are here with Macnamara, and Macnamara one of

1815
01:51:28,000 --> 01:51:31,359
the things he diligently worked towards, I mean, the Vietnam

1816
01:51:31,399 --> 01:51:33,640
War ended up taking off like a huge amount of

1817
01:51:33,720 --> 01:51:39,079
his time and labors, but obviously but uh, developing a

1818
01:51:39,199 --> 01:51:43,800
conventional capability not just for the purpose of flexible response,

1819
01:51:44,199 --> 01:51:48,319
but to really make like a devastating conventional capability the

1820
01:51:48,399 --> 01:51:52,159
kind of sphere point of American power that very much

1821
01:51:52,239 --> 01:51:55,479
came from Magnamara. And he realized the way the world

1822
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:59,920
was going, and uh, part of it was he realized,

1823
01:52:00,079 --> 01:52:02,359
you know what we just talked about that you know,

1824
01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:06,279
nuclear arms are purpose for a very very specific exigency

1825
01:52:07,319 --> 01:52:12,159
that almost never ever ever occurs. But also just you know, uh,

1826
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:15,560
the dawn of the information age, the uh, you know,

1827
01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:20,880
the kind of rapid, uh punctuated development of all these

1828
01:52:20,920 --> 01:52:24,920
applied technologies. You know, like things were becoming possible in

1829
01:52:24,960 --> 01:52:28,520
the battlefield that were unthinkable even you know, twenty years ago,

1830
01:52:29,119 --> 01:52:32,119
you know, and and in the in the then present,

1831
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:42,439
it's the uh and Macnamer Macnair's fortune is really during

1832
01:52:42,479 --> 01:52:45,279
the Kennedy administration. I mean, if you need any more

1833
01:52:45,319 --> 01:52:49,119
evidence that Kennedy really did kind of marry the US

1834
01:52:49,199 --> 01:52:51,960
and the Republic of Vietnam in terms of in terms

1835
01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:59,079
of you know, uh, global security policy. Uh, it was

1836
01:52:59,239 --> 01:53:03,600
uh it was mac damara who who put together really

1837
01:53:03,640 --> 01:53:08,159
the first military advisory group that landed in Vietnam, like

1838
01:53:08,239 --> 01:53:11,239
in real depth. I mean, yeah, going back to Eisenhower,

1839
01:53:11,479 --> 01:53:14,000
there's been you know, advisor on the ground what became

1840
01:53:14,079 --> 01:53:18,239
Military Assistants Command of Vietnam, you know mc V. It was, uh,

1841
01:53:18,920 --> 01:53:21,600
it was during was when Kennedy was still alive. It

1842
01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:22,840
was during the last you know, like year and a

1843
01:53:22,840 --> 01:53:25,880
half of his life or whatever. The mac namara raised

1844
01:53:25,920 --> 01:53:29,439
force levels to about for a few hundred about to

1845
01:53:29,520 --> 01:53:33,600
about seventeen thousand, okay, and I mean this was well

1846
01:53:33,640 --> 01:53:37,600
before the Golf of Tonkin incident, Okay, in August nineteen

1847
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:39,880
sixty four, after mister Kennedy was dead, of course. But

1848
01:53:40,039 --> 01:53:44,359
the uh, the and the Golf of Tonkin is a

1849
01:53:44,439 --> 01:53:46,960
tricky issue too, Like I I don't know how to

1850
01:53:47,039 --> 01:53:49,880
approach that because it warns more attention than I'm giving

1851
01:53:49,920 --> 01:53:54,720
it right now. But people talk about it like I

1852
01:53:55,039 --> 01:53:57,319
know that I'm gonna get it, like hate messages for this,

1853
01:53:58,039 --> 01:54:01,159
because I do. Anyway, from the libertarians, a libertarians have

1854
01:54:01,239 --> 01:54:06,800
this idea about the uh about about Article one an

1855
01:54:06,880 --> 01:54:10,399
Article two, like expressly delegated powers they do these things

1856
01:54:10,439 --> 01:54:12,600
like they do the gold standard, like something like they're

1857
01:54:12,600 --> 01:54:16,520
Sacroe stack and never ever change or something. But formal

1858
01:54:16,600 --> 01:54:21,760
declarations of war between powers that enjoy equalities of status

1859
01:54:21,840 --> 01:54:25,039
and a multipolar world where if have planet's like divided up,

1860
01:54:25,279 --> 01:54:28,479
you know, between these information powers and where like a

1861
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:31,239
change in the status of relations comes from like a

1862
01:54:31,359 --> 01:54:34,199
formal declaration of war. And this is a recognized policy

1863
01:54:34,239 --> 01:54:39,119
instrument that doesn't happen anymore. Maybe that's bad, maybe it's not,

1864
01:54:39,319 --> 01:54:42,760
but it doesn't happen anymore. And since Nuremberg. It's not

1865
01:54:42,920 --> 01:54:45,800
thinkable for that to happen anymore so for guys to

1866
01:54:45,840 --> 01:54:48,079
come out and be like, well, actually it requires a

1867
01:54:48,159 --> 01:54:51,079
declaration of war. Like, no, that's not how things work, okay,

1868
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:54,159
And I'm not gonna like worry aboudy the next position

1869
01:54:54,199 --> 01:54:55,800
for the next hour, and like why it doesn't work

1870
01:54:55,880 --> 01:54:57,840
that way? But it doesn't. And you've got to take

1871
01:54:57,920 --> 01:55:01,520
my word for that, okay. And and Article two and

1872
01:55:01,600 --> 01:55:04,359
expressing delegated power that is not negotiable and does not

1873
01:55:04,560 --> 01:55:08,399
change with the times. Is the president being the commander

1874
01:55:08,439 --> 01:55:11,800
in chief okay? And the president ability to command forces

1875
01:55:11,960 --> 01:55:16,960
is not contingent upon a nineteenth century style declaration of war. Okay. However,

1876
01:55:17,199 --> 01:55:20,279
considering Congress controls the purse strings, it's a good idea

1877
01:55:20,520 --> 01:55:23,119
to make your case for why you should get, you know,

1878
01:55:23,279 --> 01:55:26,079
endless money in cargo to wage the war. That's what

1879
01:55:26,159 --> 01:55:29,560
the Gulf of Talking was about, Okay. Was it a ruse?

1880
01:55:30,119 --> 01:55:33,119
Maybe it was, Maybe it wasn't. It doesn't matter. Josh

1881
01:55:33,319 --> 01:55:36,439
was gonna get his war somehow, or his mandate somehow.

1882
01:55:36,520 --> 01:55:40,119
With Johnson's war, Congress had to find a way to

1883
01:55:40,239 --> 01:55:44,640
give him the uh, give him the uh, the the

1884
01:55:45,279 --> 01:55:48,520
the Tabula rossa to do so and to and also

1885
01:55:48,560 --> 01:55:50,960
signal of the Pentagon that they were willing to they

1886
01:55:51,000 --> 01:55:53,239
were willing to foot the bill. And this is the

1887
01:55:53,279 --> 01:55:56,479
way it came together, you know, basically to protect the record,

1888
01:55:56,880 --> 01:55:59,199
you know, because America, I mean, he's the fiction of oh,

1889
01:55:59,199 --> 01:56:03,079
we're always fighting defensive wars. Hey, we were attacked. And finally,

1890
01:56:03,399 --> 01:56:07,479
like we talked about in the last episode, there was

1891
01:56:07,720 --> 01:56:10,239
a lot of fictions that went into the drawing of

1892
01:56:10,319 --> 01:56:14,600
the map and into China after nineteen fifty five, and

1893
01:56:14,920 --> 01:56:17,920
whether North and South Vietnam or truly sovereign states that

1894
01:56:18,039 --> 01:56:21,279
was even really clear because the only the seventieth parallel

1895
01:56:21,359 --> 01:56:25,000
was supposed to be a stop gap measure pending you

1896
01:56:25,079 --> 01:56:29,720
know name pending country wide elections were by the to

1897
01:56:29,800 --> 01:56:32,520
be a single seat of government and that didn't happen.

1898
01:56:33,680 --> 01:56:37,000
And the UH and and the DM government claimed initially

1899
01:56:37,119 --> 01:56:39,239
that that was because the NLF, you know, the viet Cong,

1900
01:56:39,720 --> 01:56:41,720
you know, had resorted to violence in order to in

1901
01:56:41,840 --> 01:56:45,119
order to sway in order to sway you know, opinion

1902
01:56:45,199 --> 01:56:51,399
in their favor to terror. So these elections are definitely postponed. So,

1903
01:56:51,439 --> 01:56:54,319
I mean, it's not as simple as well you know,

1904
01:56:54,760 --> 01:56:57,119
the Republic of Vietnam's a sovereign country and it's under

1905
01:56:57,119 --> 01:56:59,319
assaults and we have an obligation to them moral as

1906
01:56:59,359 --> 01:57:03,279
well as duristic. Like the beginning it is that it's

1907
01:57:03,319 --> 01:57:05,239
not as it's not so simple the sailor the Golf

1908
01:57:05,279 --> 01:57:08,840
of Tonkin incident, for the alleged incident, and the resolution

1909
01:57:09,359 --> 01:57:12,680
was like some ruse by evil mister LBJ to you know,

1910
01:57:12,800 --> 01:57:15,159
get a war man date or so mucho a lie

1911
01:57:15,199 --> 01:57:17,640
and oh, by the way, that's illegitimate anyway, because there's

1912
01:57:17,680 --> 01:57:20,520
no declaration of war like it's eighteen forty like not.

1913
01:57:20,760 --> 01:57:23,239
That's not the way he approached it. And like I said,

1914
01:57:23,239 --> 01:57:25,520
I know people are gonna send me like fucking messages.

1915
01:57:25,520 --> 01:57:27,800
I don't care if I'm right and you're wrong, but

1916
01:57:29,159 --> 01:57:32,039
that's important and I'm I'm the last person who's gonna

1917
01:57:32,079 --> 01:57:35,359
defend LBJ in the record. But whether it been Kennedy,

1918
01:57:35,439 --> 01:57:38,840
whether it been Ike, whether it had been mister Nixon, uh,

1919
01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:41,880
they probably would have finastic goal better than LBJ did.

1920
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:44,039
But they would have gotten their warman day in some

1921
01:57:44,239 --> 01:57:49,760
similar way. Okay, they just would have Okay, that's that's

1922
01:57:50,159 --> 01:57:59,079
not arguable. Obviously, after the Gulf of Tonkin resolution was

1923
01:58:00,119 --> 01:58:09,319
m was rushed through. Uh that's uh basically the escalation

1924
01:58:09,479 --> 01:58:12,359
over Vietnam like but it literally began like with the

1925
01:58:12,399 --> 01:58:17,399
air war, and inially it was massive intiliatory air strikes

1926
01:58:19,239 --> 01:58:24,319
against naval targets and and and targets within a North

1927
01:58:24,399 --> 01:58:27,600
Vietnam proper that were said to, you know, be facilitating

1928
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:32,399
it's it's it's it's blue water navy capability, which you

1929
01:58:32,439 --> 01:58:35,720
know supposedly is what had brought you know, American vessels

1930
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:40,560
under assault. But from there, I mean the uh, the

1931
01:58:40,720 --> 01:58:45,479
kind of fix was in and people can I mean

1932
01:58:45,960 --> 01:58:48,520
the fixes in run characterizecuse. Like I said, I believe

1933
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:50,760
within the bound rationality of the Cold War, the Vietnam

1934
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:54,399
War had to be fought, okay, and I I stand

1935
01:58:54,439 --> 01:58:58,560
by that position. But mag Namara, even it had that

1936
01:58:58,680 --> 01:59:02,319
not been the case, you know, man if in this

1937
01:59:02,399 --> 01:59:05,840
area defense, uh, you know, like a he can an officer,

1938
01:59:06,000 --> 01:59:09,000
I mean, you're you're accountable the commander in chief. Okay,

1939
01:59:09,079 --> 01:59:12,000
I mean it's not it's not like Magnamara. Ahead. You know,

1940
01:59:12,439 --> 01:59:14,720
first of all, you can't you can't need some conscientest

1941
01:59:14,800 --> 01:59:19,199
objector and fulfill your obligations in the offense of secondary defense.

1942
01:59:19,319 --> 01:59:23,319
But whatever McNamara did or didn't do, I mean, he

1943
01:59:23,439 --> 01:59:25,760
was executing the owners of the commander in chief, and

1944
01:59:26,239 --> 01:59:29,680
policy does not originated with the Secretary Defense's Office or

1945
01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:33,680
at the Department of the Army or Depentagon. Frankly, However,

1946
01:59:34,279 --> 01:59:37,000
as we get into McNamara's success or as true successor,

1947
01:59:37,079 --> 01:59:41,119
Melvin Laird, I think I think, I think, I think

1948
01:59:41,199 --> 01:59:43,359
that the career of Lair and the kind of the

1949
01:59:43,439 --> 01:59:48,399
trajectory of his tenure and his machinations against Nixon and Kissinger,

1950
01:59:48,960 --> 01:59:50,560
I think that was kind of the origin of the

1951
01:59:50,640 --> 01:59:53,199
true like modern deep state as we think of it.

1952
01:59:53,560 --> 01:59:56,720
There's always been shadow government, shadow governments, not the deep state.

1953
01:59:56,840 --> 02:00:02,239
That's something that was emergent, in my opinion, really interested

1954
02:00:02,239 --> 02:00:09,079
around the nineteen seventies. But in uh, in any event,

1955
02:00:09,359 --> 02:00:14,000
uh Magma anyway, he he uh, you know, Magna visited

1956
02:00:14,079 --> 02:00:17,039
Vietnam repeatedly, like in person, you know, I mean he

1957
02:00:17,199 --> 02:00:21,840
and and not just not a diplomatic meeting greets, you

1958
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:24,680
know where he revisited, you know, DM or two and

1959
02:00:24,840 --> 02:00:26,880
go to go to some embassy party and then you know,

1960
02:00:27,000 --> 02:00:29,840
take some like handshake shots of some general I mean

1961
02:00:29,920 --> 02:00:33,920
he he visited mcavee. He he spent time at Long

1962
02:00:34,039 --> 02:00:38,159
Been asking junior officers, like, what's going on here? Is actly?

1963
02:00:38,680 --> 02:00:43,199
You know? Uh? He spent time pouring over uh, you

1964
02:00:43,279 --> 02:00:47,920
know body count statistics that were coming from the title

1965
02:00:48,399 --> 02:00:51,840
uh headquarters you know in the field that you know,

1966
02:00:51,960 --> 02:00:54,840
like DOCTA or whatever, and saying like you know this,

1967
02:00:55,039 --> 02:00:58,000
this isn't right, this is not possible, this idea, it

1968
02:00:58,119 --> 02:01:00,199
was just like this kind of ghoulish warmonger just like

1969
02:01:00,279 --> 02:01:03,479
signing off and everything or you know, somehow enriching himself.

1970
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:06,479
I mean, Magnemara, we don't need to sit here and

1971
02:01:06,560 --> 02:01:08,760
like feel sad for magnemer He ended his He ended

1972
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:10,960
up at the World Bank. Subsequently, he had a very

1973
02:01:11,000 --> 02:01:13,319
good life, you know. But but the fact is in

1974
02:01:13,359 --> 02:01:15,359
public life he was ruined. You know. It's like, what

1975
02:01:15,800 --> 02:01:18,479
what great stuff did Macnera get from you know, this

1976
02:01:18,640 --> 02:01:21,319
kind of seventy years of managing the Vietnam War. Like

1977
02:01:21,439 --> 02:01:23,680
it's not it's not like he got like some great

1978
02:01:24,439 --> 02:01:26,640
benefits from this. He knows how he pulled us a

1979
02:01:26,680 --> 02:01:28,920
lens Ski and like was pocketing a billion dollars and

1980
02:01:29,279 --> 02:01:31,399
what he would have been a nobody before, like This

1981
02:01:31,600 --> 02:01:34,000
is like a huge step down, you know, like Magnaver

1982
02:01:34,119 --> 02:01:37,119
didn't get anything by by waging the Vietnam War on

1983
02:01:37,199 --> 02:01:42,199
behalf of Johnson, Like he really didn't. But we're coming

1984
02:01:42,279 --> 02:01:44,720
up in the hour here. Let's I'm gonna get into

1985
02:01:44,720 --> 02:01:47,159
Melvin Laird and the rest of Magnamara next episode, and

1986
02:01:47,239 --> 02:01:50,159
we can do that whatever you want, like even this week.

1987
02:01:51,399 --> 02:01:53,199
And I'll uh, I realized the gind of got it

1988
02:01:53,239 --> 02:01:56,600
cut to the chase. It's just somebody is a personage

1989
02:01:56,680 --> 02:01:59,039
just kind of towering his magnumbry. It warrants a lot

1990
02:01:59,159 --> 02:02:02,359
of attention, like more so than some than some people

1991
02:02:02,439 --> 02:02:04,520
and even some presidents. But yeah, so I hope I didn't.

1992
02:02:04,560 --> 02:02:06,199
I hope I hope I didn't drag it out too

1993
02:02:06,239 --> 02:02:11,479
long for you're okay, great, Yeah, yeah, I figured you

1994
02:02:11,479 --> 02:02:12,800
would have like kind of reined me in if I

1995
02:02:12,920 --> 02:02:16,119
was like point two far on tangents. But yeah, no,

1996
02:02:16,279 --> 02:02:18,640
thank you, Pete. This was really great. Yeah.

1997
02:02:18,760 --> 02:02:22,039
Speaker 1: I mean the only reason I interrupted was I had questions.

1998
02:02:22,279 --> 02:02:25,800
Speaker 2: So I want to take up that question proper too.

1999
02:02:25,880 --> 02:02:27,680
I'll get a dedicated episode. Maybe it was like the

2000
02:02:27,720 --> 02:02:29,720
bookend when he finished the Cold War. That's like a

2001
02:02:29,840 --> 02:02:32,800
hugely important question and to me especially like I spend

2002
02:02:32,800 --> 02:02:34,439
a lot of time with it, you know, just going

2003
02:02:34,520 --> 02:02:37,079
to my own kind of interest in things. So yeah, no,

2004
02:02:37,199 --> 02:02:39,840
I interject whatever you want, man like please do like

2005
02:02:39,920 --> 02:02:41,520
it helps me organize my thoughts.

2006
02:02:42,399 --> 02:02:45,239
Speaker 1: All right, quick plugs so we'll get out.

2007
02:02:45,680 --> 02:02:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah man. Uh as people might have noticed because I

2008
02:02:48,640 --> 02:02:50,720
tweeted it out as well as I announced that on

2009
02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:55,720
my subject hit like steel Storm two. Uh. You know,

2010
02:02:55,800 --> 02:02:59,439
my second science fiction novel. It's been printed, it's it's

2011
02:02:59,479 --> 02:03:02,279
in it send the hands of Imperium Press. I gotta

2012
02:03:02,359 --> 02:03:04,920
touch base on my dear friends there anyway, but they

2013
02:03:05,000 --> 02:03:07,960
physically have it, so I'm gonna get word from them

2014
02:03:08,159 --> 02:03:10,920
when it's gonna go up for sale on imperium press

2015
02:03:10,960 --> 02:03:14,159
dot org, and I'll drop a word of that. In

2016
02:03:14,239 --> 02:03:17,119
the meantime. You can find me, uh you find my

2017
02:03:17,239 --> 02:03:20,239
podcast and so on my long form at substick. It's

2018
02:03:20,319 --> 02:03:23,960
real Thomas seven seven seven dots substack dot com. You

2019
02:03:24,039 --> 02:03:28,239
can find me on Twitter at Triskellian Jahad. The T

2020
02:03:28,600 --> 02:03:31,239
is a number seven. But if you seek me on

2021
02:03:31,319 --> 02:03:33,720
Twitter you should you probably shall. We'll find or just

2022
02:03:33,760 --> 02:03:36,760
like start Thomas seven seven seven. That's basically where I'm

2023
02:03:36,760 --> 02:03:39,680
at where I'm active right now. I am launching the

2024
02:03:39,760 --> 02:03:41,920
YouTube channel by the end of the month, I promise.

2025
02:03:42,199 --> 02:03:44,640
I know it's been delayed and delayed, but by the

2026
02:03:44,880 --> 02:03:47,279
last day in January, and I mean before then, but

2027
02:03:47,840 --> 02:03:51,079
by the end of January, like the channel will launch.

2028
02:03:51,159 --> 02:03:54,960
So please look for that two it's uh Thomas TV

2029
02:03:55,199 --> 02:03:55,760
on YouTube.

2030
02:03:55,960 --> 02:03:57,399
Speaker 1: I appreciate it till the next time.

2031
02:03:57,560 --> 02:03:58,960
Speaker 2: Like, man, thank you very much.

2032
02:03:59,039 --> 02:04:02,560
Speaker 1: Thanks. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pea

2033
02:04:02,720 --> 02:04:09,279
Show for a Part seven is eight eight of the

2034
02:04:09,359 --> 02:04:12,840
Cold War series. Thomas seven seven seven.

2035
02:04:13,119 --> 02:04:15,800
Speaker 2: How you're doing, sir, I'm very well man, thanks for

2036
02:04:17,520 --> 02:04:20,520
posting me as always. Don't feel bad. I only I

2037
02:04:20,640 --> 02:04:23,520
only know that it's part ocho because that was indicated

2038
02:04:23,560 --> 02:04:25,760
when I joined the meeting that is Cold War with

2039
02:04:25,880 --> 02:04:30,359
Thomas Part eight. You know, like uh, like Jason takes

2040
02:04:30,399 --> 02:04:33,279
me in hand. But it's just like Thomas fuks on zoom.

2041
02:04:34,000 --> 02:04:36,960
But uh, because it may We're going to continue to

2042
02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:40,399
flesh out, you know, the career of Robert McNamara and

2043
02:04:40,399 --> 02:04:44,760
the Vietnam conflict, not just because mcnamarror is a key personage,

2044
02:04:45,439 --> 02:04:49,239
you know in understanding the Cold War, I mean represented

2045
02:04:49,279 --> 02:04:54,119
a certain type truly. You know, people derisively would refer

2046
02:04:54,239 --> 02:04:58,399
to people like McNamara and Thomas Schelling. We'll talk about

2047
02:04:58,760 --> 02:05:01,760
probably the episode after naxt he was another brilliant Shelling.

2048
02:05:01,800 --> 02:05:04,000
I mean he was not a brilliant polymath. He was

2049
02:05:04,039 --> 02:05:08,800
instrumental in Cold War strategic planning and uh, you know

2050
02:05:08,960 --> 02:05:14,279
gaming scenarios that uh that were where in you know,

2051
02:05:14,399 --> 02:05:18,600
a strategy could meaning meaningfully be incorporated into exta technology

2052
02:05:18,640 --> 02:05:22,399
and weapons platforms. And the degree to which the shape

2053
02:05:22,479 --> 02:05:25,720
policy at every level like cannot be overstated. I mean,

2054
02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:27,560
I guess on the one hand, that's obvious because we're

2055
02:05:27,600 --> 02:05:31,199
talking about you know, I mean, I mean the essence

2056
02:05:31,239 --> 02:05:35,119
of the political is war and peace. You know, kind

2057
02:05:35,159 --> 02:05:37,520
of the zenith of war fighting technology is a general

2058
02:05:37,640 --> 02:05:40,560
nuclear war, even if you know, we stipulate that a

2059
02:05:40,600 --> 02:05:43,159
lot of the kind of hysteria around nuclear weapons is

2060
02:05:43,520 --> 02:05:48,880
just that hysteria. But you know, the Shelling was far

2061
02:05:49,000 --> 02:05:52,119
less of a public figure than magnam Era. I mean

2062
02:05:52,199 --> 02:05:56,920
for a few reasons, not uh that that I think

2063
02:05:56,960 --> 02:06:00,359
are obvious. You know, Shelling uh didn't preside over uh

2064
02:06:00,520 --> 02:06:05,600
an active war. We're in you know, American Uh, Americans

2065
02:06:05,600 --> 02:06:12,079
were dying in theater. But Mcnamerica kind of became that

2066
02:06:14,000 --> 02:06:16,479
a figure that the left kind of loved to burn

2067
02:06:16,560 --> 02:06:21,560
an effig, you know, proverbially speaking, And uh, I think he,

2068
02:06:22,439 --> 02:06:25,119
I think he kind of like embodies that era, like

2069
02:06:25,359 --> 02:06:28,520
the era of the technocrat. And I don't I don't

2070
02:06:28,560 --> 02:06:32,239
mean that in punitive terms. I mean certainly that there's

2071
02:06:32,239 --> 02:06:35,600
a lot of men who that that kind of that

2072
02:06:36,039 --> 02:06:40,239
that kind of sociological structure produced, that we're not attractive people,

2073
02:06:40,920 --> 02:06:44,479
and that we're re lacking in in a grounded morality,

2074
02:06:44,600 --> 02:06:47,439
and and we're not, you know, we're not the kind

2075
02:06:47,439 --> 02:06:50,399
of men who one would want sort of guiding policy

2076
02:06:50,520 --> 02:06:54,760
in concrete ways. But you know, McNamara himself was a

2077
02:06:54,800 --> 02:06:57,479
complex person. And to make the point again and again,

2078
02:06:57,640 --> 02:07:00,439
like McNamara was not this guy who was fired to

2079
02:07:00,479 --> 02:07:02,640
be Secretary of Defense. It wasn't like one of these

2080
02:07:02,760 --> 02:07:04,960
kinds of He wasn't one of these guys who really

2081
02:07:05,159 --> 02:07:07,760
had no way of kind of like capturing cloud other

2082
02:07:07,840 --> 02:07:11,520
than going to Washington and and capitalizing on connections. You know,

2083
02:07:11,640 --> 02:07:15,119
they asked him, he didn't ask for them. And like

2084
02:07:15,199 --> 02:07:19,760
we talked about, it's not like mcnamur resigned in disgrace

2085
02:07:19,880 --> 02:07:22,880
or something, you know, I mean, he he went on, uh,

2086
02:07:23,640 --> 02:07:25,520
he went on to be the chairman of the World Bank.

2087
02:07:26,720 --> 02:07:29,000
But at the same time, you know, his name became

2088
02:07:29,079 --> 02:07:33,239
synonymous with the with the kind of grewsome uh calculus

2089
02:07:33,279 --> 02:07:35,840
of the body count, you know with uh you know,

2090
02:07:35,880 --> 02:07:41,840
the kind of the kind of head nerd view of

2091
02:07:42,159 --> 02:07:44,279
that that came to surround the papers. You know. So

2092
02:07:44,319 --> 02:07:46,319
it's not like it's not like market no matter somehow

2093
02:07:46,359 --> 02:07:49,439
like profited immensely from his tenure as Secretary of Defense,

2094
02:07:49,560 --> 02:07:53,239
and you know, his he even when eve when public

2095
02:07:53,279 --> 02:08:00,439
opinion precipitously turned against the war post tet Uh. You

2096
02:08:00,520 --> 02:08:04,920
know it's uh McNamara didn't simply exit stage laugh when

2097
02:08:04,960 --> 02:08:08,520
things went bad. And I I can't, I can't emphasize

2098
02:08:08,600 --> 02:08:10,640
enough to you know, the fact that he served for

2099
02:08:10,760 --> 02:08:15,560
seven years. That's an eternity for a cabinet post, particularly

2100
02:08:15,600 --> 02:08:21,359
for Secretary of Defense, and particularly during uh A wartime administration.

2101
02:08:22,279 --> 02:08:24,479
You know. So, like I said, I I'm sure a

2102
02:08:24,479 --> 02:08:26,359
lot of people are gonna just claim it, I'm some

2103
02:08:26,479 --> 02:08:29,680
kind of Macnamara apologists owing to you know, owing to

2104
02:08:29,800 --> 02:08:34,840
him you know, either like emotional uh factors or you know,

2105
02:08:34,920 --> 02:08:37,199
I'm gonna hero worship. Like neither of those things are true.

2106
02:08:38,279 --> 02:08:43,199
But I at all anyone who hasn't seen uh it,

2107
02:08:43,399 --> 02:08:46,199
I like I said, I I I highly recommend he

2108
02:08:46,319 --> 02:08:52,199
watched the Aeron Morris biopic on On macnamara, where I

2109
02:08:52,239 --> 02:08:54,760
mean you he he interviews the man himself, you know,

2110
02:08:54,800 --> 02:08:58,399
because that's what man what I'm what Morris does. I've

2111
02:08:58,439 --> 02:09:04,800
reserved judgment until one views that Magnamara quoted himself incredibly well.

2112
02:09:04,880 --> 02:09:08,960
And and compare that to one of Morris's subsequent biopics

2113
02:09:09,000 --> 02:09:11,680
about Donald Rumsfeld. He just came who came off just

2114
02:09:11,800 --> 02:09:15,079
as really kind of I mean just really just a

2115
02:09:15,159 --> 02:09:17,960
really really just nasty person, you know, I mean in

2116
02:09:18,000 --> 02:09:20,960
every sense of the word. You know. Uh, I think uh,

2117
02:09:21,079 --> 02:09:23,479
I think compared to I think compared to those who

2118
02:09:23,560 --> 02:09:26,720
followed who are either clowns or just you know, kind

2119
02:09:26,760 --> 02:09:31,319
of you know, cynical uh creeps like Rumsfeld, and I

2120
02:09:31,359 --> 02:09:36,039
think I think mc namara wims very large and uh

2121
02:09:36,479 --> 02:09:41,960
in mostly positive terms. But we left off last episode,

2122
02:09:42,199 --> 02:09:44,359
I believe, talking a bit about the Gulf of Talk

2123
02:09:44,439 --> 02:09:50,159
and resolution and the incident itself. I don't wanna, uh,

2124
02:09:51,039 --> 02:09:53,800
I don't, I don't wanna. I don't want to rehash

2125
02:09:54,079 --> 02:09:58,000
the entire debate as it were, that still surrounds the

2126
02:09:58,119 --> 02:10:02,159
incident that gave rise the Congressional revolution that you know,

2127
02:10:02,319 --> 02:10:08,079
gave Johnson the Tabiola rossa to escalate. Essentially, I I

2128
02:10:08,199 --> 02:10:11,560
just made the point then, as I'll reiterate now that

2129
02:10:12,000 --> 02:10:15,479
for better or worse, and I understand the libertarian argument

2130
02:10:15,840 --> 02:10:19,479
against this UH precedent, and I very much understand the

2131
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:23,720
kind of constitutionalist objection to it, But for better or worse,

2132
02:10:23,920 --> 02:10:27,239
this is how the business of war and peace is conducted,

2133
02:10:27,319 --> 02:10:30,439
and this is how it's finessed. And policy terms, Okay,

2134
02:10:32,000 --> 02:10:34,840
it's some kind of incidents that identified as a clear

2135
02:10:34,880 --> 02:10:40,079
and present danger or constituting a necessity, you know, UH,

2136
02:10:41,600 --> 02:10:48,079
demanding intervention. You know, Congress affords the executive the UH,

2137
02:10:48,680 --> 02:10:51,880
the ways and means in budgetary terms and in command

2138
02:10:52,000 --> 02:10:56,039
terms to accomplish you know, the mission in general terms,

2139
02:10:56,680 --> 02:10:59,399
and UH and and and and then you know it's

2140
02:10:59,680 --> 02:11:03,479
it's uh. The legislature bows out of the decision making

2141
02:11:03,600 --> 02:11:08,680
process in large in in large part you know there

2142
02:11:09,000 --> 02:11:13,840
in in in a formal capacity, you know, until uh

2143
02:11:14,840 --> 02:11:19,359
and until until something happens or a series of occurrences

2144
02:11:20,159 --> 02:11:23,520
ensue that, you know, brings it back within their direct purview,

2145
02:11:24,039 --> 02:11:26,000
you know, either willing to you know, revolt of the

2146
02:11:26,399 --> 02:11:30,039
the body politics at war, or you know, some kind

2147
02:11:30,079 --> 02:11:32,840
of perceived malfeasance on on the on on the part

2148
02:11:32,840 --> 02:11:34,880
of the executive in terms of the conduct of the war.

2149
02:11:35,000 --> 02:11:37,600
But we're not here to have a discussion on abstract

2150
02:11:37,600 --> 02:11:40,159
constitutional theory, you know, or on you know, war power

2151
02:11:40,319 --> 02:11:43,880
and and when, what it what and what its significance

2152
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:46,119
is in the in the post number era. I just

2153
02:11:46,199 --> 02:11:49,239
wanted to make the point that the Westphalian practice of

2154
02:11:49,399 --> 02:11:53,680
literally declaring war as a change of status and relations

2155
02:11:54,039 --> 02:11:59,079
between equals like that, that's totally obsolete. And it doesn't

2156
02:11:59,119 --> 02:12:00,960
matter if we think that good or bad. That's the

2157
02:12:01,039 --> 02:12:03,800
way it is. So the golf of talk and resolution

2158
02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:06,960
doesn't stand out as this uniquely you know, kind of

2159
02:12:07,439 --> 02:12:15,560
corrupt uh way of uh of a rather morally uh

2160
02:12:16,399 --> 02:12:21,000
you know, uh compromise executive Verkira Warman date. I'm not

2161
02:12:21,039 --> 02:12:23,159
gonna sit here and say Josson was was had any

2162
02:12:23,239 --> 02:12:28,399
redeeming characteristics. But even like like if Kennedy had been

2163
02:12:28,640 --> 02:12:33,399
in the White House, he would have pursued he would

2164
02:12:33,439 --> 02:12:36,279
he would have proceeded in much the same way as

2165
02:12:36,319 --> 02:12:40,520
would Nixon, Okay, as would you know, Reagan had he

2166
02:12:41,520 --> 02:12:44,199
been I mean, this is something important to keep in mind,

2167
02:12:44,239 --> 02:12:47,399
but I won't believe that point anymore. But what the

2168
02:12:47,520 --> 02:12:52,399
resolution represented was that, and I'm gonna, I'm go, I'm

2169
02:12:52,399 --> 02:12:54,520
gonna jump backwards a little bit, doesn't. We proceed to

2170
02:12:54,600 --> 02:12:56,960
talk about Colonel John Paul Van who I think is

2171
02:12:57,079 --> 02:13:02,800
very important. He was his analysis of the Vietnam War

2172
02:13:03,039 --> 02:13:05,479
like as it was underway, I think is essential to

2173
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:09,039
understanding the battlefield situation and you know, kind of the

2174
02:13:09,119 --> 02:13:13,680
tactical shortcomings of a particularly of McVie. But I don't

2175
02:13:13,720 --> 02:13:19,600
want to get into that yet. But what's important to

2176
02:13:19,720 --> 02:13:24,600
keep in mind in discussing the escalation that was facilitated

2177
02:13:24,600 --> 02:13:29,479
by the Tonkin Resolution is that Military Assistants Command Vietnam.

2178
02:13:29,960 --> 02:13:34,560
It arrived in country in nineteen sixty two, and from

2179
02:13:34,640 --> 02:13:38,520
sixty two to sixty five there was a proper counterinsurgency

2180
02:13:38,640 --> 02:13:43,640
campaign underway against the viet Cong. And this really you know,

2181
02:13:44,119 --> 02:13:47,439
Army Special Forces was very much purpose for that, you know,

2182
02:13:48,800 --> 02:13:55,720
and that we talked earlier about, you know, Kennedy's you know,

2183
02:13:56,720 --> 02:14:01,399
Kennedy's a strategic orientation towards sec NERD theaters, you know,

2184
02:14:01,479 --> 02:14:06,560
and the need to you know, not surrender these contested

2185
02:14:07,039 --> 02:14:11,000
territories to the communists, you know, for not not just

2186
02:14:11,560 --> 02:14:15,079
for you know, on grounds of military necessity, but you know,

2187
02:14:15,199 --> 02:14:19,880
owing owing the profound political implications of communist victory, you know,

2188
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:23,119
in these uh in these developing countries. You know, the

2189
02:14:24,520 --> 02:14:26,760
and the fact that he is the Kennedy was such

2190
02:14:26,800 --> 02:14:30,279
a champion of special operations forces is inextrictly bound up

2191
02:14:30,319 --> 02:14:35,359
with that policy vision. But Vietnam pre Tonkin Gulf.

2192
02:14:36,439 --> 02:14:40,479
Speaker 1: So Kennedy in sixty two and sixty three was commander

2193
02:14:40,520 --> 02:14:42,239
in chief guiding these missions.

2194
02:14:43,479 --> 02:14:45,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, essentially, Yeah, I mean he had it was it

2195
02:14:45,520 --> 02:14:49,399
was mac Namara and it was you know, he Kennedy

2196
02:14:49,439 --> 02:14:51,560
had a lot of talent around him, you know, who

2197
02:14:51,640 --> 02:14:55,520
are who are helping him identify kind of the concrete variables.

2198
02:14:55,560 --> 02:14:59,880
Now this translated actual war fighting. But so, I mean,

2199
02:14:59,880 --> 02:15:02,920
I wasn't just emergent from the mind of Kennedy. But

2200
02:15:03,079 --> 02:15:06,640
Kennedy did understand military matters reasonably well, you know, I

2201
02:15:06,720 --> 02:15:09,399
mean he had been in pretty heavy action in the Navy.

2202
02:15:10,960 --> 02:15:13,439
You know, he wasn't he he wasn't just some like

2203
02:15:13,520 --> 02:15:16,079
civilian neo fight who had no idea of you know

2204
02:15:16,760 --> 02:15:21,439
what what of what this constitute and what the difference

2205
02:15:21,560 --> 02:15:26,159
was between the heavy army you know, organized around uh,

2206
02:15:27,319 --> 02:15:31,399
organized around armor, you know, and that that uh that

2207
02:15:31,520 --> 02:15:33,520
had a very very clouset wood see in view of

2208
02:15:33,600 --> 02:15:36,279
war fighting. It was the advance of fire. I mean,

2209
02:15:36,319 --> 02:15:38,119
this really did like rule the day, you know, and

2210
02:15:38,199 --> 02:15:42,600
and I mean for good reason, frankly, because the the

2211
02:15:42,720 --> 02:15:47,479
the army's uh most probable military mission was to fight

2212
02:15:47,600 --> 02:15:52,079
the Red Army. I mean, but the uh, the kind

2213
02:15:52,119 --> 02:15:57,199
of tactical flexibility that early special operations forces represented, this

2214
02:15:57,319 --> 02:16:00,279
really was like a revolutionary idea. You know, like people

2215
02:16:00,399 --> 02:16:03,840
under like forty five or so, when they think of

2216
02:16:03,840 --> 02:16:05,319
the army, they or they when they think of the

2217
02:16:05,359 --> 02:16:11,319
military establishment, they think of special operations forces. That's completely

2218
02:16:11,399 --> 02:16:14,560
the opposite of the way things were during the Cold War, Okay,

2219
02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:17,720
and it uh and there there's a lot of there's

2220
02:16:17,720 --> 02:16:20,479
a lot of institutional resentment of the army towards special

2221
02:16:20,560 --> 02:16:24,319
operations and I mean that's a whole other issue that's fascinating.

2222
02:16:24,399 --> 02:16:28,319
But point being, there's kind of this mischaracterization I'm on

2223
02:16:28,399 --> 02:16:32,479
court historians that Okay, in Vietnam, there's this guerrilla war underway,

2224
02:16:33,120 --> 02:16:36,559
and you know Johnson, you know, being the you know,

2225
02:16:36,680 --> 02:16:38,760
being the kind of fool that he was, and you

2226
02:16:38,799 --> 02:16:41,040
know the Army being you know, trigger happy as they are,

2227
02:16:41,479 --> 02:16:43,600
they just like looked over the situation and said, you

2228
02:16:43,639 --> 02:16:46,559
know what, We're gonna deploy in massive, in massive depth,

2229
02:16:47,000 --> 02:16:49,079
and we're gonna throw like as much firepower as we

2230
02:16:49,159 --> 02:16:51,719
can at the viet Cong. Like that's not what happened.

2231
02:16:52,000 --> 02:16:57,479
You know. There's a years long counterinsurgency, low intensity war

2232
02:16:57,680 --> 02:17:00,840
against the National Liberation Front by the Army of the

2233
02:17:00,879 --> 02:17:04,639
Republic of Vietnam, you know, by uh by the Arvin

2234
02:17:04,920 --> 02:17:07,959
Ranger element, which was kind of their quasi special forces elements,

2235
02:17:07,959 --> 02:17:10,399
and like we talked about, the South of Enemy's Army

2236
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:12,799
does get a bad rap because there were elements among

2237
02:17:12,879 --> 02:17:18,479
them that fought hard and we're and we're very game fighters.

2238
02:17:20,120 --> 02:17:22,719
But yeah, there's actually a fastening old movie called Go

2239
02:17:22,840 --> 02:17:25,920
Tell the Spartans, which is about exactly this topic. It's

2240
02:17:25,959 --> 02:17:29,840
about you know, the like the Kennedy era of Vietnam

2241
02:17:29,920 --> 02:17:33,319
War and these green berets of this kind of forlorn outpost,

2242
02:17:35,120 --> 02:17:38,520
you know, uh as they realized the kind of tactical

2243
02:17:38,600 --> 02:17:41,159
situations changing, and obviously in the back of their mind

2244
02:17:41,200 --> 02:17:43,760
they're terrified. Although they'd never like let on this is

2245
02:17:43,799 --> 02:17:47,520
the case that of of of like the North Veennamese

2246
02:17:47,639 --> 02:17:49,680
Army one day showing up and just like sweeping through,

2247
02:17:50,479 --> 02:17:52,840
you know, out of nowhere. I mean, things like that

2248
02:17:52,959 --> 02:17:56,639
did happen, you know, later on like against the against

2249
02:17:56,719 --> 02:18:01,920
the purported you know, in address to what Army intelligence

2250
02:18:02,000 --> 02:18:05,360
was claiming with the capabilities extent of you know, Hannoid

2251
02:18:05,399 --> 02:18:09,440
to deploy in the south. But uh he as it

2252
02:18:09,559 --> 02:18:15,600
may as uh as the as as things that are

2253
02:18:15,680 --> 02:18:17,959
going bad in the south, and as as d M

2254
02:18:20,239 --> 02:18:23,040
made it clear that he was willing to negotiate. You know,

2255
02:18:23,120 --> 02:18:27,159
we talked about the kind of murky political status of Vietnam,

2256
02:18:27,520 --> 02:18:31,200
you know, and it there was there was a lot

2257
02:18:31,239 --> 02:18:33,600
of there's there's great concern that d M was just

2258
02:18:33,719 --> 02:18:36,719
gonna sit you know, quote unlet sell out the West

2259
02:18:37,280 --> 02:18:39,639
and kind of you know, kind of terms with with

2260
02:18:39,760 --> 02:18:42,639
Ho Chi Minh and with Hanoid, you know, to incorporate

2261
02:18:42,799 --> 02:18:45,239
you know, not just the NLF, but you know, the

2262
02:18:45,280 --> 02:18:49,520
Communist Party of Vietnam UH into you know, into UH

2263
02:18:50,479 --> 02:18:52,639
into the ruling apparatus, and I mean obviously that was

2264
02:18:52,680 --> 02:18:59,120
unacceptable because that you know that that the precedent that

2265
02:18:59,200 --> 02:19:02,799
that would set would be completely would be completely at

2266
02:19:02,799 --> 02:19:06,040
odds with what you know, America is trying to accomplish

2267
02:19:06,639 --> 02:19:08,680
in the developing world. And you know, we talked about

2268
02:19:08,719 --> 02:19:12,760
how again like you know, the UH the it was

2269
02:19:12,879 --> 02:19:15,879
it was at base. We're talking about a political conflict.

2270
02:19:16,319 --> 02:19:21,000
It doesn't matter that you know they're they're there, that

2271
02:19:21,200 --> 02:19:24,200
that's into China's not you know, a bounty of natural resources.

2272
02:19:24,239 --> 02:19:26,680
It doesn't matter that you know, there's not there's not

2273
02:19:26,719 --> 02:19:30,319
some absolutely essential you know, maritime portocoll that you know

2274
02:19:30,479 --> 02:19:34,920
has UH has profound military significance there. You know, the

2275
02:19:35,040 --> 02:19:40,000
line in the sand was UH was Vietnam, and that's

2276
02:19:40,399 --> 02:19:43,079
that's where the Communists challenged and that's you know, the

2277
02:19:43,239 --> 02:19:45,360
challenge of everyone. That challenge was going to be met

2278
02:19:45,479 --> 02:19:49,920
or it was not. And the Communists had great momentum

2279
02:19:50,239 --> 02:19:54,200
in the Third World even really up until up until

2280
02:19:54,200 --> 02:19:57,200
the late nineteen eighties, you know, like long after, you know,

2281
02:19:57,280 --> 02:20:00,920
long after like Stalinists type rule, you know, Marxist Leninist

2282
02:20:01,479 --> 02:20:05,040
revolutionary ambition and and the kind of the kind of

2283
02:20:05,079 --> 02:20:08,399
the armed UH insurgency culture or political culture around it.

2284
02:20:08,840 --> 02:20:11,879
Long after that like lost its luster, you know for anybody,

2285
02:20:12,000 --> 02:20:14,360
but you know, total diehards, you know, like the kind

2286
02:20:14,360 --> 02:20:17,120
of people who joined like the Bottom Minehoff gang, you know,

2287
02:20:17,200 --> 02:20:19,559
in in the Western world. This kind of thing had

2288
02:20:19,719 --> 02:20:22,399
an incredible power to animate people in the Third world,

2289
02:20:22,959 --> 02:20:26,639
you know, and Hochi Minh was himself as a testament

2290
02:20:26,680 --> 02:20:29,360
to that. You know, like we talked about, Hoe was

2291
02:20:29,440 --> 02:20:31,760
not some It wasn't some bumpkin or some or some

2292
02:20:31,920 --> 02:20:35,040
ignorant you know, farmer or something. He you know, he

2293
02:20:35,159 --> 02:20:38,680
was uh, he was. He was highly educated. You know,

2294
02:20:38,760 --> 02:20:41,479
his family was uh was was was wealthy and well

2295
02:20:41,559 --> 02:20:47,079
situated and very insinuated into the uh indigenous political structure,

2296
02:20:47,760 --> 02:20:51,959
you know, and uh in Vietnam, so you know, and

2297
02:20:52,000 --> 02:20:54,239
he was not He was not an outlier, nor was

2298
02:20:54,280 --> 02:21:00,440
he an achronism. But because it may it uh, the

2299
02:21:00,959 --> 02:21:04,000
the mass escalation, I mean yeah, part of that was

2300
02:21:04,239 --> 02:21:08,520
owing to the fact that the post the new look army,

2301
02:21:10,440 --> 02:21:13,879
you know, once what once conventional forces, you know, kind

2302
02:21:13,879 --> 02:21:17,440
of became uh what once again in vogue for lack

2303
02:21:17,440 --> 02:21:20,959
of a better way to describe it, the army, uh,

2304
02:21:21,719 --> 02:21:25,040
the army remained obsessed with with firepower, you know, and

2305
02:21:25,079 --> 02:21:27,319
the idea that you know, combined arms and a lot

2306
02:21:27,319 --> 02:21:30,959
of these nascent technologies you know, and and the precursor

2307
02:21:31,079 --> 02:21:34,000
the smart weapons you know, and uh as well as

2308
02:21:34,040 --> 02:21:37,079
like the technologies immediately preceding the revolution and military affairs

2309
02:21:37,120 --> 02:21:41,799
that allowed command and control, the truly direct fire they like,

2310
02:21:41,879 --> 02:21:45,760
the the destructive capabilities of these things was just awesome.

2311
02:21:46,360 --> 02:21:48,440
So there was, in fact the sense and the Pentagon

2312
02:21:48,559 --> 02:21:52,319
that like, look, you know, asymmetric warfare. Yeah, there's you know,

2313
02:21:52,559 --> 02:21:59,000
there's considerations emergent you know, within that paradigm, and that's

2314
02:21:59,000 --> 02:22:01,639
got to be accounted for within the battle space itself

2315
02:22:02,399 --> 02:22:05,319
and within you know, uh and and and and and

2316
02:22:05,399 --> 02:22:09,959
it's got to inform decision making of how forces are

2317
02:22:09,959 --> 02:22:12,920
structured and deployed in country. But at the same time,

2318
02:22:13,479 --> 02:22:15,799
you know, if you can blast the hell out of everything,

2319
02:22:15,920 --> 02:22:17,799
you're gonna get a lot done, you know. And and

2320
02:22:18,239 --> 02:22:20,760
how can you know, how can the National Liberation Front,

2321
02:22:21,239 --> 02:22:23,159
you know, no matter it doesn't matter how hard they are,

2322
02:22:23,200 --> 02:22:25,920
It doesn't matter you know what kind of uh what

2323
02:22:26,079 --> 02:22:28,479
what kind of civilian support they have? You know, it

2324
02:22:28,520 --> 02:22:31,879
doesn't matter, you know, kind of how uh, it doesn't

2325
02:22:31,959 --> 02:22:35,040
matter that they've got this kind of mass, youthful male

2326
02:22:35,120 --> 02:22:37,639
population to draw upon. You know, if you if, if you,

2327
02:22:37,680 --> 02:22:39,760
if you apply this kind of pressure in the form

2328
02:22:39,840 --> 02:22:46,200
of you know, just relentless and massive firepower against the adversary,

2329
02:22:46,360 --> 02:22:49,600
he's gonna just crumble. I mean, there was there was

2330
02:22:50,200 --> 02:22:53,079
more than you know, like a modicum of of that

2331
02:22:53,799 --> 02:22:58,159
sort of thinking. I mean, obviously, however, it was clear,

2332
02:23:00,399 --> 02:23:02,559
you know, in nineteen fifty nine, and I mean sixty

2333
02:23:02,680 --> 02:23:06,000
nine all the way to you know, nineteen seventy four,

2334
02:23:06,159 --> 02:23:10,079
seventy five, when the People's Army Vietnam launched its final offensive,

2335
02:23:10,520 --> 02:23:14,360
it was clear that Hanoi was not going to prevail

2336
02:23:14,680 --> 02:23:18,840
without a massive conventional assault on the South Vietnam. It's

2337
02:23:18,840 --> 02:23:24,879
a comparatively huge country. The National Liberation Front had the

2338
02:23:24,959 --> 02:23:31,399
capability to dominate the countryside very effectively. Thus, this is

2339
02:23:31,440 --> 02:23:33,559
what was responsible for the kind of you know, hearts

2340
02:23:33,600 --> 02:23:38,680
and minds campaign, all of that, and and the idea

2341
02:23:38,719 --> 02:23:41,120
of free fire zones and strategic hamlets, and we'll get

2342
02:23:41,120 --> 02:23:46,159
into some of that later. But the uh, but but

2343
02:23:46,319 --> 02:23:48,799
the but key urban centers the viet Cong could not,

2344
02:23:49,639 --> 02:23:52,559
not only could not capture, but they couldn't, you know,

2345
02:23:52,600 --> 02:23:56,920
and there there was a dearth of of necessary civilian support,

2346
02:23:57,520 --> 02:23:59,479
you know, which was the true kind of like infrastructure

2347
02:23:59,479 --> 02:24:01,799
of the Vietcong, you know, like any gorilla movement, that's

2348
02:24:01,799 --> 02:24:04,360
what they have to draw up on. But even like

2349
02:24:04,440 --> 02:24:07,440
their big coup was when they their big battlefield coup

2350
02:24:08,079 --> 02:24:10,719
was when the NLF captured Howayi City, you know, and

2351
02:24:10,840 --> 02:24:14,239
that's you know, and and uh, there's just there's those

2352
02:24:14,319 --> 02:24:16,879
dramatic shots of the US Marines, you know, like raising

2353
02:24:16,920 --> 02:24:19,399
the American flag like over the citadel and in uh

2354
02:24:19,520 --> 02:24:22,159
in Hway, you know, because it was it was this

2355
02:24:22,280 --> 02:24:25,520
horrible like pitched battle. But I mean just really really raw.

2356
02:24:25,600 --> 02:24:28,079
That's why I think it's cool that full Metal Jacket

2357
02:24:28,200 --> 02:24:32,959
like focuses on Howay you know. And and uh, Gustav

2358
02:24:33,040 --> 02:24:38,879
Hasford made Wway the focus of uh the battlefield segment

2359
02:24:39,000 --> 02:24:42,000
of his novel for for a reason. But the point is, like,

2360
02:24:42,079 --> 02:24:44,040
you know, they couldn't hold it. You know, it's not

2361
02:24:44,239 --> 02:24:47,639
like it's not like it's not like the NLF took

2362
02:24:47,680 --> 02:24:51,799
away and said into this massive push on TET sixty eight,

2363
02:24:52,280 --> 02:24:54,959
you know, and then uh, and and then the civilian

2364
02:24:55,040 --> 02:24:57,920
population he came out and drove, you know, allow them

2365
02:24:57,959 --> 02:25:02,399
to consolidate that that their presence there, you know, quite

2366
02:25:02,440 --> 02:25:09,040
the contrary. So it was clear that South Vietnam either

2367
02:25:09,120 --> 02:25:12,479
was going to have to develop a competent conventional capability

2368
02:25:13,360 --> 02:25:18,520
buttressed by or facilitated by rather you know, modern combined

2369
02:25:18,639 --> 02:25:21,799
arms and hardware, as well as the training of their people,

2370
02:25:22,040 --> 02:25:26,840
you know, to operate these these weapons systems and weapons platforms,

2371
02:25:27,520 --> 02:25:30,520
or there was gonna have to be direct intervention you know,

2372
02:25:30,680 --> 02:25:33,239
by Sito ideally, and we got into STO the other

2373
02:25:33,360 --> 02:25:40,000
day or some constellation of you know, American allies in

2374
02:25:40,159 --> 02:25:44,440
order to in order to stave off uh this uh

2375
02:25:45,760 --> 02:25:49,879
this uh this imminent assault until until the South could

2376
02:25:49,920 --> 02:25:52,799
stand on its own. And that's what I just said.

2377
02:25:52,879 --> 02:25:58,479
That's what became Grand strategy in Vietnam. You know. And

2378
02:26:00,040 --> 02:26:02,600
as any military man will tell you, you know, you

2379
02:26:02,639 --> 02:26:05,159
don't you don't you don't you don't wait until, uh,

2380
02:26:05,879 --> 02:26:09,120
the exigency is afoot and then respond to it, you know,

2381
02:26:09,280 --> 02:26:14,000
just like just as you anticipate capabilities, you know, not

2382
02:26:14,879 --> 02:26:16,959
you know, you don't just consider you know, probable action

2383
02:26:17,760 --> 02:26:21,159
in terms of uh, in terms of judging and you know,

2384
02:26:21,360 --> 02:26:27,479
a potential opposing UH force. You were you pre empt

2385
02:26:27,760 --> 02:26:31,600
UH the ambitions of that opposing force, you know, you

2386
02:26:31,639 --> 02:26:33,639
don't you don't you don't wait until the People's Army

2387
02:26:33,639 --> 02:26:37,639
of Vietnam is assaulting across the seventeenth parallel, you know,

2388
02:26:38,319 --> 02:26:41,120
in in in in in depth, you know, with with

2389
02:26:41,280 --> 02:26:43,600
combined arms, you know, to decide, like how are you

2390
02:26:43,639 --> 02:26:46,600
going to react to that? Okay? So this was the

2391
02:26:46,840 --> 02:26:51,120
this was this was the logic behind the massive escalation

2392
02:26:52,040 --> 02:26:58,200
and UH there had been at its peak pre talking golf,

2393
02:26:58,399 --> 02:27:01,719
I think it was between seventeen thousand and eighteen thousand,

2394
02:27:01,799 --> 02:27:06,920
five hundred approximddally UH American forces on the ground in Vietnam.

2395
02:27:07,639 --> 02:27:13,200
This is by the end of nineteen sixty seven, this

2396
02:27:13,319 --> 02:27:16,399
had swelled the four hundred and eighty five thousand UH

2397
02:27:16,959 --> 02:27:21,879
troops and UH by the peak, which was the summer

2398
02:27:21,879 --> 02:27:24,840
in nineteen sixty eight, it was it was over half

2399
02:27:24,879 --> 02:27:27,799
a million. It was something like five hundred and thirty thousand. Okay,

2400
02:27:29,600 --> 02:27:32,680
the UH and obviously you know, as as as the

2401
02:27:32,799 --> 02:27:41,559
casualties mounted and as UH and as some the plus

2402
02:27:41,559 --> 02:27:43,840
situation you know kind of like restricted the UH the

2403
02:27:43,920 --> 02:27:46,879
tactical environment and and what was and what was permissible

2404
02:27:47,040 --> 02:27:50,239
according to the rules of engagement. You know, commanders on

2405
02:27:50,319 --> 02:27:54,799
the ground, uh down to the company level, you know,

2406
02:27:54,840 --> 02:27:57,879
their their constant refrain was like, basically, we need more manpower.

2407
02:27:58,360 --> 02:28:00,399
You know, we need we we you know, we need

2408
02:28:00,479 --> 02:28:05,920
to be able to apply more apply more pressure now

2409
02:28:06,040 --> 02:28:08,079
And why why why was it kind of boiled down

2410
02:28:08,120 --> 02:28:11,760
to that metric? Okay, well, you know we talked, uh

2411
02:28:12,719 --> 02:28:14,879
we we talked when we first kind of scratched the

2412
02:28:14,920 --> 02:28:18,319
service of of the atomic age, I mean, like it's

2413
02:28:18,360 --> 02:28:20,719
advent and what the implications were in policy terms as

2414
02:28:20,760 --> 02:28:23,719
well as military ones. And obviously I can speak a

2415
02:28:23,760 --> 02:28:26,440
lot more about the former than the latter, because I

2416
02:28:26,840 --> 02:28:29,680
am not a military man, and I you know, that's

2417
02:28:29,719 --> 02:28:32,399
not really my wheelhouse. But I do know something about

2418
02:28:32,440 --> 02:28:36,479
policy as it interfaces with military decision making and the

2419
02:28:36,559 --> 02:28:39,440
needs of you know, the needs of the military establishment

2420
02:28:39,959 --> 02:28:44,559
to accomplish stated policy goals as directed by the civilian executive.

2421
02:28:46,719 --> 02:28:53,440
There came the ability to the the ability to corral

2422
02:28:53,559 --> 02:28:56,479
data and the ability to interpret data, the ability to

2423
02:28:56,559 --> 02:29:01,680
apply data to all kinds of problems at scale. You know,

2424
02:29:02,000 --> 02:29:06,040
whether you're talking about you know, whether you're talking about

2425
02:29:06,079 --> 02:29:08,879
the best of offset liability if you're you know, if

2426
02:29:08,920 --> 02:29:12,680
if you're manufacturing automobiles, you know, and thus that that

2427
02:29:12,879 --> 02:29:15,079
was the you know, unsafe at any speed. That was

2428
02:29:15,120 --> 02:29:17,280
like the Ralph Nader book about uh, you know, the

2429
02:29:17,360 --> 02:29:20,440
auto industry and it's it's macat calculus of you know,

2430
02:29:21,319 --> 02:29:25,799
how many how many deaths owing to the products liability

2431
02:29:25,840 --> 02:29:29,879
issues were acceptable? You know, vis a vis what would

2432
02:29:30,280 --> 02:29:32,959
be the cost of remedying these design defects. I mean,

2433
02:29:33,000 --> 02:29:37,239
everybody's familiar with that, Okay, that this this was something

2434
02:29:37,280 --> 02:29:40,440
that was emergent, just like across the board, you know,

2435
02:29:41,360 --> 02:29:44,440
in uh in the private sector and government, you know,

2436
02:29:44,600 --> 02:29:52,120
in in in social planning, the military, uh, in the

2437
02:29:52,239 --> 02:29:58,479
Cold War, it what you know, what the what the

2438
02:29:58,600 --> 02:30:02,520
victory metric was in these secondary theaters, you know, where

2439
02:30:03,319 --> 02:30:06,959
the primary challenge was a political one, you know, not

2440
02:30:07,159 --> 02:30:11,799
a military one. You know, a comparable situation would be

2441
02:30:11,840 --> 02:30:16,840
with the British we're facing in Northern Ireland. Okay, I

2442
02:30:16,920 --> 02:30:21,120
mean that that that conflict developed ory differently, but uh,

2443
02:30:22,319 --> 02:30:27,600
identifying you know, not just what uh what the tactical

2444
02:30:27,639 --> 02:30:31,200
orientation should be in order to neutralize the opposing force,

2445
02:30:31,760 --> 02:30:35,440
but what the performance metric is, you know, of those

2446
02:30:35,520 --> 02:30:39,680
forces in theater. Well, what this came boiled down to was,

2447
02:30:40,559 --> 02:30:44,280
you know, the the the ability to manufacture enemy dead.

2448
02:30:44,559 --> 02:30:48,360
Quite literally, the logic of the body count became the

2449
02:30:48,600 --> 02:30:55,280
performance metric. So there'd be demands from a battalion level,

2450
02:30:55,840 --> 02:31:00,079
you know, originating with the originating you know, at M

2451
02:31:01,120 --> 02:31:05,479
at long been uh, you know, and and trickling down

2452
02:31:05,520 --> 02:31:07,840
to company and then platoon level, you know, like you

2453
02:31:08,000 --> 02:31:10,600
need to produce bodies, you need to produce enemy dead.

2454
02:31:11,559 --> 02:31:18,399
And UH, as a standalone metric, that's problematic. I mean,

2455
02:31:18,440 --> 02:31:20,559
aside from the fact that it's macabre and all of that,

2456
02:31:20,760 --> 02:31:23,079
and I realized it's it's kind of a gross thing

2457
02:31:23,120 --> 02:31:26,639
to talk about that makes people uncomfortable. But this is

2458
02:31:26,719 --> 02:31:28,719
very much like I mean, this, this is this, this

2459
02:31:28,879 --> 02:31:32,159
is the stuff of modern warfare. Okay, but it took

2460
02:31:32,280 --> 02:31:36,760
on a significance into itself and Vietnam owing again to

2461
02:31:36,879 --> 02:31:39,639
the kind of to to the kind of the culture

2462
02:31:39,639 --> 02:31:43,920
of strategic planning. But it wasn't just spillover from you know,

2463
02:31:45,280 --> 02:31:52,719
the uh, the kind of a the data revolution spearheaded

2464
02:31:52,799 --> 02:31:57,559
by I. D. M. And it's got the proto computers

2465
02:31:58,079 --> 02:32:00,840
you know that were utilized uh in the Second World War,

2466
02:32:00,959 --> 02:32:04,920
and and and and you know thereafter obviously, you know,

2467
02:32:04,959 --> 02:32:08,879
the victory metric of in nuclear war is very much

2468
02:32:08,920 --> 02:32:13,360
distilled down to you know, the ability to the like

2469
02:32:13,440 --> 02:32:17,840
the ability to yield you know, enemy dead at the

2470
02:32:18,760 --> 02:32:21,600
beyond like a certain tipping point. You know, that's that's

2471
02:32:21,639 --> 02:32:24,239
literally what the term you know, like mega death indicates

2472
02:32:24,360 --> 02:32:27,399
and assured destruction. Mega death was not just you know,

2473
02:32:27,440 --> 02:32:31,280
the name of like kind of a got you know,

2474
02:32:31,360 --> 02:32:33,559
a like a like a fucking heavy metal man, you know,

2475
02:32:33,639 --> 02:32:37,120
like it Actually it actually was a term of art,

2476
02:32:38,319 --> 02:32:43,360
if not the nuclear war studies and game theory, but

2477
02:32:43,799 --> 02:32:48,000
because it may there is something too, uh there, there

2478
02:32:48,079 --> 02:32:51,239
is something to this logic on the body count. I mean,

2479
02:32:51,280 --> 02:32:56,920
if you're if the burn rate that uh that you're

2480
02:32:59,040 --> 02:33:02,360
that you're imposing a upon the opposing force you know,

2481
02:33:02,479 --> 02:33:08,920
far exceeds the population and military age males you know,

2482
02:33:09,239 --> 02:33:12,959
who can be trained, equipped and fielded, you know, to

2483
02:33:13,040 --> 02:33:17,799
replace those losses. At some point, you know, the insurgency

2484
02:33:17,879 --> 02:33:20,360
is gonna fall apart where it's at least not gonna

2485
02:33:20,360 --> 02:33:24,520
be able to mount operations you know beyond you know,

2486
02:33:24,879 --> 02:33:32,239
like platoon level or something. And uh, this did work

2487
02:33:32,680 --> 02:33:37,319
in a sense I'm one of the few defenders you'll

2488
02:33:37,360 --> 02:33:41,200
find the Phoenix program. We'll get into that at another date.

2489
02:33:42,120 --> 02:33:44,680
And people who don't really understand it, like even people

2490
02:33:44,719 --> 02:33:48,760
are otherwise sensible, Like it's become this kind of it's

2491
02:33:48,799 --> 02:33:51,520
become this kind of horror story that they like to

2492
02:33:51,639 --> 02:33:54,879
bandy about. You know that, you know, it's kind of

2493
02:33:55,200 --> 02:33:58,120
synonymous in their mind, or you know, it's taken on

2494
02:33:58,319 --> 02:34:02,319
kind of the characteristic of a it's become kind of

2495
02:34:02,360 --> 02:34:06,479
like the exemplar of of a of executive overreach and

2496
02:34:06,760 --> 02:34:09,399
and and and violence they're in you know, but it

2497
02:34:14,360 --> 02:34:17,840
something like that identifying enemy cadres, I mean, if you

2498
02:34:17,920 --> 02:34:21,959
have a reliable system of of of identifying these people

2499
02:34:22,600 --> 02:34:29,200
and targeting them for annihilation with a minimum of collateral

2500
02:34:29,319 --> 02:34:37,200
damage where possible. That's basically how you fight uh counterinsurgency

2501
02:34:37,280 --> 02:34:40,959
warfare or how you wage counter in curtaincy warfare. And uh,

2502
02:34:41,319 --> 02:34:44,120
that's what the British Army started doing by the late

2503
02:34:44,520 --> 02:34:48,000
nineties in Northern Ireland. Uh. The way they did it

2504
02:34:48,479 --> 02:34:51,600
obviously was or by by the late eighties, I mean sorry,

2505
02:34:51,680 --> 02:34:57,120
by not the late nineties, but the this uh that

2506
02:34:57,280 --> 02:35:03,079
this this this was underway in Vietnam. At the same

2507
02:35:03,200 --> 02:35:05,719
time that, you know, there was this kind of uh

2508
02:35:06,120 --> 02:35:09,239
there's this kind of like body count driven effort in

2509
02:35:09,440 --> 02:35:13,319
uh and you know, being waged by you know, conventional forces,

2510
02:35:14,000 --> 02:35:17,000
you know, just to rack up the body count. And

2511
02:35:17,000 --> 02:35:19,120
I mean obviously this led to all kinds of problems.

2512
02:35:19,639 --> 02:35:23,239
You know, wherein these these numbers were confabulated. You know,

2513
02:35:23,920 --> 02:35:28,440
civilians were counted as a as a as enemy combatants.

2514
02:35:28,920 --> 02:35:32,719
You know, like really very very corrupt things happened, you know,

2515
02:35:33,239 --> 02:35:37,719
of a moral and material nature. But that happens in

2516
02:35:37,799 --> 02:35:40,639
every war, right, yeah, exactly. And it's also this didn't

2517
02:35:40,639 --> 02:35:43,159
like somehow emerge in the Macnamara Magris and this gooulish

2518
02:35:43,239 --> 02:35:46,159
guy who was like, oh, well, I have an idea.

2519
02:35:46,319 --> 02:35:50,000
You know, let's let's transform let's transform the military apparatus

2520
02:35:50,040 --> 02:35:54,000
into this kind of corpse manufacturing uh enterprise, you know,

2521
02:35:54,159 --> 02:35:56,920
because that's just a great thing to do. I mean,

2522
02:35:57,000 --> 02:36:01,239
this was this was the thinking at the time. And

2523
02:36:01,399 --> 02:36:06,639
frankly too, I mean it there's a again, the Cold

2524
02:36:06,680 --> 02:36:10,399
War was strange. I mean, in some ways there's commonality

2525
02:36:10,559 --> 02:36:14,680
to all uh, you know, to to to all conflicts

2526
02:36:15,000 --> 02:36:19,040
where there's uh uh at you know, where where there's

2527
02:36:19,280 --> 02:36:22,559
where there's certain variables present. You know that that uh

2528
02:36:24,799 --> 02:36:28,079
that caused you know, combat to resolve in similar ways,

2529
02:36:28,159 --> 02:36:30,840
you know, adjusting for technology and things, you know, like

2530
02:36:30,959 --> 02:36:35,000
with it within disparate theaters and across you know, across

2531
02:36:35,280 --> 02:36:38,840
you know, the temporal divide and stuff. But uh, there

2532
02:36:38,959 --> 02:36:42,399
were strange things about the Cold War that limited what

2533
02:36:42,600 --> 02:36:45,520
was possible, not just because the threat of escalation, you know,

2534
02:36:45,719 --> 02:36:48,680
even in even in a very secondary theater, excuse me,

2535
02:36:48,719 --> 02:36:51,719
it was always present, but also again if you're fighting

2536
02:36:51,879 --> 02:36:56,600
a primarily political war. You know, we're not just talking

2537
02:36:56,600 --> 02:37:00,280
about we're not talking about the enemy's ability to field

2538
02:37:00,360 --> 02:37:04,239
military age males, you know, who are gonna be trained

2539
02:37:04,239 --> 02:37:09,319
as infantry or sapers or whatever. Not every man is

2540
02:37:09,440 --> 02:37:12,360
gonna make it as a Viet Cong. That requires a

2541
02:37:12,399 --> 02:37:18,959
certain radicalism, uh within uh you know, like with with

2542
02:37:19,120 --> 02:37:21,120
with with within you know the quote heart and mind

2543
02:37:21,159 --> 02:37:24,120
of that individual, you know, I mean it's not if

2544
02:37:24,120 --> 02:37:27,799
you're if you're looking to build an insurgent army, particularly

2545
02:37:27,799 --> 02:37:30,559
in a situation like when the vietnames called the American War,

2546
02:37:30,840 --> 02:37:32,680
where you know, basically there's like an eighty percent chance

2547
02:37:32,719 --> 02:37:35,399
you're gonna die, like you're not. It's not like being

2548
02:37:35,520 --> 02:37:37,680
drafted into the US Army and you know, to go

2549
02:37:37,799 --> 02:37:41,920
fight the Korean War. It's like a very different thing,

2550
02:37:42,319 --> 02:37:44,520
you know, like you you every man pretty much needs

2551
02:37:44,559 --> 02:37:46,639
to be a partisan. And yeah, you know, there were

2552
02:37:46,760 --> 02:37:49,920
there there were a there were NLF fighters you know,

2553
02:37:49,959 --> 02:37:52,559
who are basically like press ganged and you know, like

2554
02:37:52,680 --> 02:37:55,760
joining the viet Cong and stuff. But that that was

2555
02:37:55,840 --> 02:37:57,920
the minority, because you don't get results out of people

2556
02:37:58,040 --> 02:38:02,479
like that, you know. I mean, so it the the

2557
02:38:02,959 --> 02:38:04,920
idea that we've got to kill as many of these

2558
02:38:04,959 --> 02:38:08,719
people as possible, and it targeted capacity, and you know,

2559
02:38:09,399 --> 02:38:13,239
killing them is a is an end in itself because

2560
02:38:13,239 --> 02:38:15,799
that's a victory metric in order to kind of alter

2561
02:38:16,120 --> 02:38:19,280
you know, the political conditions on the ground and how

2562
02:38:19,319 --> 02:38:23,879
these conditions translate to military power, you know, albeit in

2563
02:38:23,920 --> 02:38:26,719
an asymmetrical way like that. That is a real thing.

2564
02:38:27,079 --> 02:38:29,840
And that's that's that's a legit analysis. I'm not saying

2565
02:38:29,959 --> 02:38:32,239
legit and you know, moral terms whatever, I mean, I'm

2566
02:38:32,319 --> 02:38:35,280
not rendering decision on that one or the other. But

2567
02:38:35,479 --> 02:38:38,399
in terms of there there is a tactical logic to that.

2568
02:38:39,120 --> 02:38:41,680
That's not you know, insane or something or totally off

2569
02:38:41,760 --> 02:38:44,959
base or the nor is it the kind of nineteen sixties,

2570
02:38:45,360 --> 02:38:48,959
you know, technocrat version of Chatto generalship. And I think

2571
02:38:49,000 --> 02:38:55,840
that that's important. It's uh. But moving on that, THEMERA

2572
02:38:55,920 --> 02:39:00,799
became very very skeptical of administration policy, not because Johnson,

2573
02:39:00,840 --> 02:39:03,840
as we as we talked about, you know, Johnson viewed

2574
02:39:03,959 --> 02:39:06,040
escalation and the threat of escalation as a kind of

2575
02:39:06,040 --> 02:39:10,799
political bargaining ship, which is not how you wage a war. Okay,

2576
02:39:10,840 --> 02:39:14,000
I mean it's not and I mean you're first of all,

2577
02:39:14,000 --> 02:39:16,239
you're playing with the lives of the men you know

2578
02:39:16,319 --> 02:39:18,959
who uh who are charged with fighting that war. But

2579
02:39:19,079 --> 02:39:22,840
also it just doesn't uh, you know, it doesn't. It

2580
02:39:23,079 --> 02:39:26,040
doesn't work. You know, that's not a thing that yields concessions.

2581
02:39:27,639 --> 02:39:31,200
And you know it doesn't. It doesn't it doesn't instill

2582
02:39:31,479 --> 02:39:35,200
fear in the opposing force. You know, it basically tells

2583
02:39:35,280 --> 02:39:38,280
him that, you know, eventually, you're gonna be willing to compromise,

2584
02:39:39,200 --> 02:39:41,399
because otherwise, at the end of the day, you know,

2585
02:39:41,600 --> 02:39:43,760
if you if that was not the case, you know,

2586
02:39:43,879 --> 02:39:45,680
you'd be fighting this war. There'd be no like no

2587
02:39:45,799 --> 02:39:48,520
restraint on the rules of engagement. Like don't get me wrong,

2588
02:39:49,040 --> 02:39:53,879
you know. Uh the uh despite despite the kind of

2589
02:39:54,760 --> 02:39:57,159
the kind of canaris like, oh, America was like fighting

2590
02:39:57,200 --> 02:39:59,319
the Vietnam War with one hand tied around his balls

2591
02:39:59,440 --> 02:40:02,040
or something. I mean, we killed a huge amount of

2592
02:40:02,040 --> 02:40:04,920
people in Vietnam, Okay, like some real cowboy ship was

2593
02:40:04,959 --> 02:40:07,879
going on. I'm not I'm not trashing the war effort

2594
02:40:10,040 --> 02:40:13,159
at all. Okay, like uh unlike World War Two, I

2595
02:40:13,200 --> 02:40:16,200
think within within the boundary rationality of the Cold War,

2596
02:40:17,000 --> 02:40:20,159
I like I said, Vietnam had to be fought, Okay,

2597
02:40:20,840 --> 02:40:26,319
but there was a lot of uh there there there

2598
02:40:26,399 --> 02:40:30,440
there was there's a lot of wholesale killing of human beings, okay,

2599
02:40:31,159 --> 02:40:38,000
according to pretty loose uh criteria, you know, the tactical restraints.

2600
02:40:39,479 --> 02:40:42,360
There was you know, the the literally the parameters that

2601
02:40:42,479 --> 02:40:46,840
were imposed on the operational environment. Like yeah, that had

2602
02:40:46,879 --> 02:40:53,639
a that that rendered victory problematic. Okay, like no doubt

2603
02:40:53,680 --> 02:40:59,639
about it, but it but the uh but but this,

2604
02:41:00,040 --> 02:41:03,280
but this, but this idea that you know, uh America

2605
02:41:03,479 --> 02:41:05,879
was like hesitating to drop bodies in Vietnam wing to

2606
02:41:05,959 --> 02:41:08,479
crazy r O R O E. Like that's that that's

2607
02:41:08,600 --> 02:41:13,520
that's completely fastile. But the uh but what mcnamer realized

2608
02:41:13,600 --> 02:41:17,319
was that, uh, you know, the dropping more and more,

2609
02:41:17,760 --> 02:41:20,879
deploying more and more men to Vietnam was not going

2610
02:41:20,920 --> 02:41:24,239
to solve the problem, you know, Nor was uh? Nor

2611
02:41:24,440 --> 02:41:26,719
was uh? Nor was the problem that you know, they're

2612
02:41:26,840 --> 02:41:30,159
the bombing campaign wasn't intense enough or something, you know,

2613
02:41:30,319 --> 02:41:32,959
Like he he basically reached the conclusions you know that

2614
02:41:33,200 --> 02:41:35,760
that we're gonna talk about now, and like a lot

2615
02:41:35,840 --> 02:41:38,719
of like like a lot of what I'm drawing upon

2616
02:41:39,280 --> 02:41:41,879
to describe his mindset and describe some of the extant

2617
02:41:41,959 --> 02:41:47,879
challenges of of of the Secretary Defense in his epoch,

2618
02:41:48,040 --> 02:41:51,520
I'm drawing upon his own direct testimony, you know, I mean,

2619
02:41:51,520 --> 02:41:55,040
among other things, obviously, but the Mactimer and in winter

2620
02:41:55,159 --> 02:41:57,200
nineteen sixty seven, MC and everyone as far as to

2621
02:41:57,280 --> 02:42:04,840
suggests freezing troop levels and uh, basically to prepare Magnara

2622
02:42:04,959 --> 02:42:06,760
said like, well, then you know, we we don't we

2623
02:42:06,799 --> 02:42:10,600
don't have infant we don't have any indefinite timetable you know,

2624
02:42:10,760 --> 02:42:13,879
to make South Vietnam like combat ready in terms of

2625
02:42:13,879 --> 02:42:17,239
their force isn't being you know, to stand on their

2626
02:42:17,280 --> 02:42:20,559
own against the North, you know it. Uh, He like

2627
02:42:20,680 --> 02:42:23,600
basically said that the situation is not going to improve

2628
02:42:23,639 --> 02:42:26,040
on the ground. Either either you know, either the ear

2629
02:42:26,120 --> 02:42:29,079
of the Republic of Vietnam can fight now or it's

2630
02:42:30,040 --> 02:42:32,760
or or or or it can't fight. You know, two

2631
02:42:32,840 --> 02:42:36,200
years from now, the situation is not gonna it is

2632
02:42:36,239 --> 02:42:40,440
not going to be radically different. This was rejected outright

2633
02:42:41,319 --> 02:42:44,040
by Johnson. And that's you know, it was November twenty

2634
02:42:44,200 --> 02:42:49,200
ninth of sixty seven that Magnevara announced his Penning resignation.

2635
02:42:49,760 --> 02:42:53,319
He didn't retire until February sixty eight, or resign rather,

2636
02:42:53,840 --> 02:42:55,920
But that, I mean, that was that that thing was

2637
02:42:55,920 --> 02:42:58,319
a story that brought the camel's back. Okay, I think

2638
02:42:58,399 --> 02:43:04,680
Magna gave it his all and Vietnam for years. He

2639
02:43:04,799 --> 02:43:07,760
risked his reputation, he probably risked like a lot of

2640
02:43:07,840 --> 02:43:10,840
his a lot of his moral uh, he probably compromised

2641
02:43:10,840 --> 02:43:12,600
a lot of his a lot of his a lot

2642
02:43:12,639 --> 02:43:15,959
of his moral commitments too. Frankly, I'm not gonna sit

2643
02:43:16,000 --> 02:43:17,399
here and make a martyr out of him. He took

2644
02:43:17,440 --> 02:43:19,760
the job. And I mean, if you're Secretary of Defense,

2645
02:43:19,799 --> 02:43:23,040
I mean you're you're dealing with the deaths of human beings.

2646
02:43:23,120 --> 02:43:27,360
You gotta be okay with it. But the you know,

2647
02:43:27,520 --> 02:43:30,479
he for for for this is what he did for

2648
02:43:31,559 --> 02:43:35,799
for seven years almost and uh when when he when

2649
02:43:35,840 --> 02:43:38,399
he approached his commander in chief and said, like, this

2650
02:43:38,520 --> 02:43:42,879
is a situation as it stands, I mean Johnson Bass

2651
02:43:42,920 --> 02:43:45,280
like waved him off, like dismissed him, you know. I

2652
02:43:45,319 --> 02:43:48,399
mean I and I'm not saying that magnum are quit

2653
02:43:48,479 --> 02:43:52,000
because you know, on ground is like massculine ego or

2654
02:43:52,079 --> 02:43:56,159
something at all. But I can't even imagine being in

2655
02:43:56,239 --> 02:43:59,479
that role particularly and considered like what what was underway

2656
02:43:59,479 --> 02:44:03,920
in the country, you know, and uh and your secretary

2657
02:44:04,000 --> 02:44:07,600
Defense like literally the man who uh you know, who

2658
02:44:07,600 --> 02:44:10,440
you rely upon more than any singular figure, I mean

2659
02:44:10,479 --> 02:44:13,319
in that administration, you know, to give you the straight

2660
02:44:13,440 --> 02:44:18,799
story on the strategic situation, like he tells you exactly

2661
02:44:18,920 --> 02:44:23,239
that you know exactly what what what you know what

2662
02:44:23,479 --> 02:44:26,559
what what the what your options are is as commander

2663
02:44:26,639 --> 02:44:29,319
in chief, you know, and you simply dismiss him because

2664
02:44:29,360 --> 02:44:31,399
like that that that doesn't comport with like your own

2665
02:44:31,440 --> 02:44:36,120
conceptual prejudices. I mean, it's incredible, But LBJ was just

2666
02:44:36,200 --> 02:44:40,200
a terrible person and a terrible chief executive. You know.

2667
02:44:40,319 --> 02:44:43,559
It's but that that doesn't need to be rehashed. But

2668
02:44:45,040 --> 02:44:50,360
who succeeded. Who succeeded McNamara was Clark Clifford very briefly,

2669
02:44:50,760 --> 02:44:56,120
that's not like a yalely like uh you're like old

2670
02:44:56,200 --> 02:44:58,760
uh old America like name, I don't know what is,

2671
02:44:58,920 --> 02:45:03,120
but he you kind of a placeholder. The true succession

2672
02:45:03,159 --> 02:45:06,280
to mc namara was a guy named Melvin Laird. He's

2673
02:45:06,360 --> 02:45:10,040
kind of forgotten the history, but Melvin Laird loomed really

2674
02:45:10,159 --> 02:45:16,360
large over the late Cold War. His deputy, uh what

2675
02:45:16,959 --> 02:45:19,200
what was not worry about Clifford was one of his

2676
02:45:19,440 --> 02:45:22,239
one of like one of his chief uh like assistants

2677
02:45:22,799 --> 02:45:25,479
was Paul Nitza, you know, and Paul Nitza was you know,

2678
02:45:25,520 --> 02:45:28,159
he was the co founder of Team B and uh

2679
02:45:28,440 --> 02:45:30,479
you know until he was like quite elderly like he

2680
02:45:31,440 --> 02:45:34,600
he uh like Nitsa was even like he was he

2681
02:45:34,799 --> 02:45:37,799
was he was drafting, uh he was, he was. He

2682
02:45:37,920 --> 02:45:41,600
was he was drafting policy statements on behalf of the

2683
02:45:41,639 --> 02:45:44,040
project for a New American Century, you know, like as

2684
02:45:44,719 --> 02:45:46,520
late as the early two thousands. You know, like he

2685
02:45:47,479 --> 02:45:50,040
he's he's he's one of these. He's one of these

2686
02:45:50,120 --> 02:45:51,959
kinds of I mean not to sound no dramatic, he's

2687
02:45:51,959 --> 02:45:54,079
one of these Nize was one of these shadowy figures

2688
02:45:55,280 --> 02:45:58,760
of the defense establishment, you know who who really was

2689
02:45:58,920 --> 02:46:01,079
uh you know who really was kind of like a

2690
02:46:01,159 --> 02:46:05,040
hidden eminence. But uh, that's really all that's remarkab about

2691
02:46:05,079 --> 02:46:10,280
Clifford Laird. Uh, Laird was interesting, and there was a

2692
02:46:11,239 --> 02:46:13,200
how long, how how long we've been going here? I

2693
02:46:13,239 --> 02:46:15,760
don't know if I should I don't know if I

2694
02:46:15,760 --> 02:46:19,399
should dive into I don't know I should dive into. Yeah,

2695
02:46:19,440 --> 02:46:21,719
we'll get started on Melvin Laird and and and then

2696
02:46:21,799 --> 02:46:23,879
what begin the Nixon doctor in and then like well

2697
02:46:24,000 --> 02:46:26,479
we'll we'll like deep dive properly into like Nixon's war

2698
02:46:26,680 --> 02:46:30,760
next episode at that school because it requires I'm not

2699
02:46:30,840 --> 02:46:33,479
intentionally dragging this out, but it there's just like a

2700
02:46:33,559 --> 02:46:40,479
lot here. But Melvin Laird, Uh, some people, some of

2701
02:46:40,520 --> 02:46:41,959
you'll talk on him like it was a hands off

2702
02:46:42,040 --> 02:46:45,120
secretary Defense either wanting to you know, Nixon being an

2703
02:46:45,120 --> 02:46:48,600
imperial executive who bullied his cabinet, Like that's that's complete nonsense.

2704
02:46:49,120 --> 02:46:52,600
Other people cast Laired as this guy who uh you know,

2705
02:46:52,959 --> 02:46:54,719
in in and then and delivered. Ever to strike a

2706
02:46:54,799 --> 02:46:59,559
contrast to mc namara, you know, uh was was was

2707
02:46:59,600 --> 02:47:05,760
a verse to you know, setting a policy course in uh,

2708
02:47:06,680 --> 02:47:10,360
like you know, in its own right emergent from the

2709
02:47:10,440 --> 02:47:14,760
Secretary Defensive Office. It's not now those things are correct.

2710
02:47:16,200 --> 02:47:20,959
Laird actually was, uh, it was very much uh engaged

2711
02:47:21,000 --> 02:47:24,319
in the course of policy and uh he very much

2712
02:47:24,399 --> 02:47:29,319
became an enemy of Nixon Kissinger. And this had implications

2713
02:47:29,399 --> 02:47:34,040
for Watergate, which in my opinion, was, you know, just

2714
02:47:34,120 --> 02:47:37,360
the coup against Nixon. By what we do today is

2715
02:47:37,399 --> 02:47:45,559
the deep you know, I uh certainly was government in

2716
02:47:45,600 --> 02:47:46,040
those days.

2717
02:47:46,520 --> 02:47:48,639
Speaker 1: You broke up there, you broke up there for a

2718
02:47:48,719 --> 02:47:52,680
second out were you referring to it as you said

2719
02:47:52,760 --> 02:47:57,239
that the people who would have carried out Watergate would

2720
02:47:57,239 --> 02:47:59,680
have been comparable to today what we call the deep state?

2721
02:48:00,760 --> 02:48:04,799
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, definitely. It's just that the it's like

2722
02:48:04,879 --> 02:48:07,559
the like government was different than the Cold War and

2723
02:48:07,680 --> 02:48:10,799
certain key ways. But I mean some like I'm not.

2724
02:48:11,319 --> 02:48:12,760
I mean, yeah, okay, we get. I mean, if you

2725
02:48:12,799 --> 02:48:16,159
want to talk about in linear terms like yeah, I get,

2726
02:48:16,239 --> 02:48:18,760
we can, we can look at it as is kind

2727
02:48:18,799 --> 02:48:24,319
of you know, the phenomena in common. But the but Laird, yeah, uh,

2728
02:48:26,280 --> 02:48:29,799
I think Laird's hostility to Nixon and Kissinger, it took

2729
02:48:29,879 --> 02:48:32,799
on a very personal tenor, which is strange. I mean,

2730
02:48:32,879 --> 02:48:40,280
I think it, uh, But in pure policy terms Lared's vision,

2731
02:48:42,479 --> 02:48:45,120
I think he was wrong, but it's he wasn't totally

2732
02:48:45,159 --> 02:48:49,399
of base. If you if you, if you'd Vietnam as

2733
02:48:49,719 --> 02:48:54,120
essentially weakening the United States, not just some material terms,

2734
02:48:55,079 --> 02:48:59,799
but uh, he said that, you know, essentially, he's like,

2735
02:48:59,840 --> 02:49:02,840
you got a war weary country now, you know then

2736
02:49:03,479 --> 02:49:06,719
like that they're now being nineteen sixty nine. You know,

2737
02:49:06,799 --> 02:49:10,959
he's like a general war broke up, you know, broke

2738
02:49:11,000 --> 02:49:15,760
out with warsaw pack tomorrow you know uh uh, you know,

2739
02:49:15,799 --> 02:49:18,319
with with the country really have the political will, uh,

2740
02:49:18,879 --> 02:49:21,680
you know, to fight worse, to fight the Soviet Union,

2741
02:49:21,719 --> 02:49:24,159
warsaw packed in Central Europe. You know, it sacrificed. It's

2742
02:49:24,159 --> 02:49:26,280
like a million and a half young people, you know,

2743
02:49:26,440 --> 02:49:28,879
on the on on on the heels of what we've

2744
02:49:28,920 --> 02:49:32,959
already endured in Southeast Asia. Secondly, he's like, you know,

2745
02:49:33,719 --> 02:49:38,879
the uh, the the Soviet Union was advantaged, as we

2746
02:49:38,959 --> 02:49:42,280
talked about before, in terms of the fact that you

2747
02:49:42,319 --> 02:49:45,840
know it it basically had pre existing cadres on the

2748
02:49:45,879 --> 02:49:49,920
ground throughout the Third World, owing in a large part

2749
02:49:51,040 --> 02:49:54,360
you know, the kind of the anti colonial movement and

2750
02:49:54,479 --> 02:49:58,440
other things on like a basic hostility you know to

2751
02:49:58,520 --> 02:50:02,000
the West and and and profound turves not just superficial

2752
02:50:02,040 --> 02:50:06,600
ones and uh, but also like a lot of these

2753
02:50:07,360 --> 02:50:09,920
a lot of these movements, like including the National Liberation

2754
02:50:10,040 --> 02:50:13,520
Front itself. You know, they've been engaged, uh in combat

2755
02:50:13,559 --> 02:50:17,719
either against the Axis or you know, against UH or

2756
02:50:17,719 --> 02:50:20,399
against the Portuguese, the French or the English or you know,

2757
02:50:21,200 --> 02:50:25,200
any of these uh, any of these fading you know,

2758
02:50:26,000 --> 02:50:29,680
colonial powers. The Soviet Union was able to really kind

2759
02:50:29,719 --> 02:50:34,559
of spare its its own blood and treasure. Meanwhile, it

2760
02:50:34,719 --> 02:50:37,719
really kind of had the United States's number in terms

2761
02:50:37,760 --> 02:50:39,920
of it's war fighting doctor and in terms of strengths

2762
02:50:39,959 --> 02:50:45,239
and weaknesses, you know, and uh, while America was you know,

2763
02:50:46,159 --> 02:50:49,840
while America was taking heavy casualties in Vietnam, you know,

2764
02:50:49,959 --> 02:50:55,639
and UH and and uh and and and and people

2765
02:50:55,680 --> 02:50:59,959
were losing confidence in the dollar and things. You know,

2766
02:51:00,079 --> 02:51:03,680
the Soviet Union was really was was uh was was

2767
02:51:03,799 --> 02:51:07,079
under had undertaken It's owning a revolution in military affairs,

2768
02:51:07,559 --> 02:51:09,239
you know, but it had done so without you know,

2769
02:51:09,360 --> 02:51:12,559
like paying any costs and blood. And uh. Lard had

2770
02:51:12,600 --> 02:51:16,479
a good point there, and UH, this became very evident

2771
02:51:17,399 --> 02:51:19,600
post I think, and that's one of the reasons why

2772
02:51:21,200 --> 02:51:23,600
when Reagan took the oath of office, you know, a

2773
02:51:23,719 --> 02:51:29,280
decade later, there really was a sense that warsaw pat

2774
02:51:29,440 --> 02:51:32,639
constituted a clear and present danger that wasn't that wasn't

2775
02:51:32,639 --> 02:51:37,799
just propaganda or you know, a precursor to war fever

2776
02:51:38,040 --> 02:51:41,479
or something, or or ear an iteration of war fever,

2777
02:51:41,639 --> 02:51:48,120
what have you. What Lard did do was he said, uh,

2778
02:51:49,399 --> 02:51:51,879
you know, his big thing where where where he and

2779
02:51:52,000 --> 02:51:55,719
Nixon converged. He said that, you know, uh, we've uh,

2780
02:51:55,920 --> 02:51:57,760
we've got to be we've got to be more assertive

2781
02:51:58,040 --> 02:52:01,920
in in foreign affairs. We gotta be we gotta strengthen

2782
02:52:02,079 --> 02:52:05,280
you know, us influence you know over the over what

2783
02:52:05,440 --> 02:52:07,559
was then the European Community, you know, because the EU

2784
02:52:07,639 --> 02:52:11,120
didn't exist yet. You know, He's like, we've got to consolidate.

2785
02:52:12,399 --> 02:52:14,559
We we we've got to consolidate, you know, the whold

2786
02:52:14,639 --> 02:52:16,760
we have on Japan and Korea, you know, to make

2787
02:52:16,799 --> 02:52:22,280
sure that's permanent, you know. When uh and uh, he

2788
02:52:22,360 --> 02:52:27,120
said that, you know, absolutely incredible nuclear determs is essential

2789
02:52:27,200 --> 02:52:31,479
to essential sound foreign policy. But he said that strong

2790
02:52:31,600 --> 02:52:35,399
conventional defense is is is just as important, you know.

2791
02:52:35,680 --> 02:52:37,799
And the uh he came back to this point again

2792
02:52:37,799 --> 02:52:39,959
and again. Like I said, he's like, you know, you're

2793
02:52:40,600 --> 02:52:43,799
you're you're gonna be basically turn people against the military

2794
02:52:43,920 --> 02:52:46,719
established man that we're constantly engaged in these brush fire wars.

2795
02:52:47,520 --> 02:52:50,000
And I understand, I understand that point, but I don't

2796
02:52:50,040 --> 02:52:53,159
accept it. But it uh, you know, my point is,

2797
02:52:53,200 --> 02:52:55,440
like I said, like, it wasn't It wasn't some crazy idea.

2798
02:52:56,280 --> 02:53:05,319
It's uh the Viyitnamization, uh regime. You know, Nixon's policy

2799
02:53:05,399 --> 02:53:10,159
a disengagement with the South, you know well well, butcherssing

2800
02:53:10,200 --> 02:53:14,559
its forces and being you know, in material terms as

2801
02:53:14,600 --> 02:53:17,040
well as as well as in terms of morale and

2802
02:53:17,159 --> 02:53:21,040
you know, transform transform the army of the Republic of Vietnam.

2803
02:53:21,120 --> 02:53:25,559
It is something comic capable that very much that policy

2804
02:53:25,600 --> 02:53:29,399
course very much came from Nixon, but Melvin Lair with

2805
02:53:29,479 --> 02:53:31,879
the rubber met the road, you know, kind of uh

2806
02:53:33,600 --> 02:53:36,600
saw to it being implemented. So it's profs for that.

2807
02:53:38,959 --> 02:53:44,239
The uh. One of the early riffs between Layered and

2808
02:53:45,120 --> 02:53:48,040
and and and Nixon and Kissinger. I mean basically the

2809
02:53:48,200 --> 02:53:52,680
entire like executive basically the entire executive National Security staff

2810
02:53:52,719 --> 02:53:54,799
of the White House, like you know, other than himself.

2811
02:53:56,319 --> 02:54:02,680
In sixty nine, that's when the secret bombing is Cambodia began.

2812
02:54:03,479 --> 02:54:05,760
You know, Cambodia was officially neutral. I mean, they were

2813
02:54:05,799 --> 02:54:08,159
engaged in their own like bloody civil war. There's all

2814
02:54:08,239 --> 02:54:11,639
kinds of intrigues there. And what's fascinating is that as

2815
02:54:11,680 --> 02:54:14,479
the sin of Soviet split kind of set in, there's

2816
02:54:14,559 --> 02:54:16,840
very much a proxy war between the Soviet Union and

2817
02:54:17,079 --> 02:54:22,079
and Red China in Cambodia, you know, between the between

2818
02:54:22,079 --> 02:54:27,000
the Soviet client North Vietnamese like later just you know,

2819
02:54:27,079 --> 02:54:35,040
the Vietnamese army and the Khmer rouge. But that next

2820
02:54:35,079 --> 02:54:42,360
an increasingly sidelined Laird and these key decisions, and that's

2821
02:54:42,440 --> 02:54:45,360
there's an interesting parallel I with with Iran contract there,

2822
02:54:45,639 --> 02:54:48,639
which which Warrants mentioned. I want I want deep dive

2823
02:54:48,680 --> 02:54:50,799
into that now because obviously it would be here all afternoon.

2824
02:54:51,600 --> 02:54:59,000
But it's Laird. Laird understood. Laird said, basically looked like

2825
02:54:59,120 --> 02:55:01,000
this wasn't a matter of priety, is you know, it's

2826
02:55:01,040 --> 02:55:03,959
not a matter of me being affronted that you know,

2827
02:55:04,040 --> 02:55:06,040
despite the vegu of Secretary Defense, I being left out

2828
02:55:06,079 --> 02:55:08,840
of these decisions but he said, there's an inevident there's

2829
02:55:08,840 --> 02:55:11,399
an evidence there's going to be an inevitable disclosed public

2830
02:55:11,479 --> 02:55:17,920
disclosure of uh of these bombings, and UH public outrage

2831
02:55:18,360 --> 02:55:22,680
UH authentic or not cultivated or not by by hostile

2832
02:55:22,719 --> 02:55:29,520
elements is gonna is gonna harm the harm wrought by

2833
02:55:29,559 --> 02:55:34,159
that is gonna neutralize any tactical advantage by hitting these North.

2834
02:55:34,520 --> 02:55:37,440
These North made me sanctuaries in Cambodia. And Larry was

2835
02:55:37,479 --> 02:55:41,600
actually right about that. And again, I mean, may what

2836
02:55:41,840 --> 02:55:44,040
what what was the anti war movement? And was it

2837
02:55:44,280 --> 02:55:47,159
was its focused on these discrete policy decisions, you know,

2838
02:55:47,360 --> 02:55:50,719
like the secret bonding of Cambodia. Was that like authentic

2839
02:55:51,079 --> 02:55:55,120
uh outrage? I don't know, Okay, not at all. It

2840
02:55:55,280 --> 02:55:58,079
was it was it was the It was the nineteen

2841
02:55:58,079 --> 02:56:03,680
sixty eight equivalent sorrows inc you know, color revolutioning, uh,

2842
02:56:03,959 --> 02:56:06,799
the American street against mister Nixon and the Vietnam War

2843
02:56:07,200 --> 02:56:09,959
with of course the help of warsaw paged intelligence agencies.

2844
02:56:10,479 --> 02:56:12,600
But that didn't matter. The point is that's what it

2845
02:56:12,600 --> 02:56:15,040
would be a catalyst for. And of course I mean

2846
02:56:15,200 --> 02:56:18,799
the you gonn almost hear the Nixon rebuttal of that

2847
02:56:18,959 --> 02:56:21,559
of you know, we're not we're not gonna let these

2848
02:56:21,639 --> 02:56:24,840
like we're not gonna let some like commy cocksuckers in

2849
02:56:24,920 --> 02:56:28,680
Berkeley like dictate like the course of policy, particularly not

2850
02:56:28,840 --> 02:56:31,760
you know, the course of war and peace decisions, because

2851
02:56:31,879 --> 02:56:35,280
you know, bombing nominally neutral states that are actually communist

2852
02:56:35,319 --> 02:56:39,559
sanctuaries is bad PR. But Laird was absolutely right. Okay,

2853
02:56:39,840 --> 02:56:43,000
And you know, you if you're the president of the

2854
02:56:43,040 --> 02:56:47,079
United States, you know you're presiding over the political culture

2855
02:56:47,159 --> 02:56:52,600
that you're presiding over, and misguidance it may be, you know,

2856
02:56:52,879 --> 02:56:57,760
like comically improper as it may be. You know, you

2857
02:56:57,879 --> 02:57:00,280
are dealing with the hostile media. If you're a mister Nixon,

2858
02:57:00,319 --> 02:57:03,040
her mister Trump, that's going to do early in his

2859
02:57:03,120 --> 02:57:05,479
power to remove you from office. And these things must

2860
02:57:05,520 --> 02:57:08,159
be considered. Now, that does not mean that you're refrained

2861
02:57:08,200 --> 02:57:12,120
from assaulting Cambodia if it's a if it's if it's

2862
02:57:12,159 --> 02:57:14,799
a tactical necessity. What it does mean is that you

2863
02:57:14,879 --> 02:57:17,079
finesse it the right way, and you know, you don't

2864
02:57:17,079 --> 02:57:20,000
do it in secret and cut the Secretary of Defense

2865
02:57:20,040 --> 02:57:25,120
out of the equation. But that that really kind of, uh,

2866
02:57:26,559 --> 02:57:30,319
that really uh, that really was kind of the nail

2867
02:57:30,319 --> 02:57:33,200
in the cop and the relationship between Laird and and

2868
02:57:33,440 --> 02:57:37,520
and Nixon and Kissinger, and later when when it was disclosed,

2869
02:57:38,319 --> 02:57:41,920
when the bombing of Cambodia was disclosed, and these mass

2870
02:57:42,000 --> 02:57:44,959
protests broke out, which with a precursor to the to

2871
02:57:45,040 --> 02:57:50,239
the Kent State uh tragedy, which I don't know, people,

2872
02:57:50,360 --> 02:57:54,760
I didn't know that until fairly recently. I mean I

2873
02:57:54,840 --> 02:57:56,600
knew like when that. I knew when the camp I

2874
02:57:56,639 --> 02:57:58,719
knew when the Cambodia bombies occurred, I knew when Kent

2875
02:57:58,760 --> 02:58:01,520
State happened. I didn't realize that like that, at least

2876
02:58:01,559 --> 02:58:05,959
the nominal pretext for the big protest was was the

2877
02:58:06,000 --> 02:58:14,200
bombing of Cambodia. But uh, when this was disclosed, the media, uh,

2878
02:58:15,159 --> 02:58:20,879
Nixon through Kissinger very publicly accused Laird of of leaking it,

2879
02:58:21,360 --> 02:58:26,399
you know, just uh, which was a pretty was a

2880
02:58:26,479 --> 02:58:30,760
pretty pretty serious allegation. I haven't deep dived into the issue.

2881
02:58:30,799 --> 02:58:32,440
I can't really comment in that. I would have been

2882
02:58:32,479 --> 02:58:35,760
surprised if that was the case. Somebody Lard was a

2883
02:58:35,799 --> 02:58:38,799
serious guy, however you or I feel about his politics.

2884
02:58:40,760 --> 02:58:43,680
He wouldn't have compromised. A guy like Lard wouldn't have

2885
02:58:43,760 --> 02:58:48,319
compromised the you know, an active war effort, you know,

2886
02:58:48,440 --> 02:58:50,639
to stick it to mister Nixon or to score points

2887
02:58:50,719 --> 02:58:54,559
with the with the with with with with with with

2888
02:58:54,879 --> 02:58:58,159
Woodward and Bernstein types. I. I just can't see that happening.

2889
02:58:59,040 --> 02:59:06,399
But uh, be as it may, this was another I

2890
02:59:06,440 --> 02:59:08,719
mean this, this was in another dysfunction of the Nixon

2891
02:59:08,799 --> 02:59:10,440
White House. And I mean, don't get me wrong, I

2892
02:59:10,520 --> 02:59:14,200
think Nixon was actually fighting the Vietnam War to win it.

2893
02:59:16,159 --> 02:59:19,600
And uh next episode will also get into the man

2894
02:59:19,680 --> 02:59:24,840
of Creighton Abrams, General Creighton Abrams, who succeeded Westmoreland, And

2895
02:59:25,079 --> 02:59:32,159
uh I I think of Westmoreland almost, uh almost, uh

2896
02:59:33,520 --> 02:59:35,959
almost like a McLellan of his era, you know, like

2897
02:59:36,120 --> 02:59:40,280
very much, very much, very much a being counter or

2898
02:59:40,399 --> 02:59:43,120
like a lesser or like a middle level executive and

2899
02:59:43,440 --> 02:59:48,840
in particularly innovative company, you know, in in in in

2900
02:59:49,000 --> 02:59:54,680
in in an army uniform. How Westmoreland advanced the way

2901
02:59:54,760 --> 02:59:59,959
he did remains a mystery. But again I I don't

2902
03:00:00,760 --> 03:00:02,120
there there's obviously not a help of a lot I

2903
03:00:02,159 --> 03:00:05,360
can add. There's not obviously not a help a lot

2904
03:00:05,360 --> 03:00:08,799
of insight I have into into the US military culture.

2905
03:00:09,159 --> 03:00:11,479
And uh, I mean having not seen it from within.

2906
03:00:12,360 --> 03:00:18,639
But the uh laird, Uh we'll wrap up here in

2907
03:00:18,680 --> 03:00:21,520
a minute. So that because uh, the next kind of

2908
03:00:21,520 --> 03:00:24,239
sub top I'm gonna get into is is huge. But

2909
03:00:24,440 --> 03:00:30,360
the there's a legacy the laired I think he was

2910
03:00:30,440 --> 03:00:32,399
very much the last kind of like Secretary Defense that

2911
03:00:32,520 --> 03:00:36,079
had any real independence in policy matters now because he

2912
03:00:36,200 --> 03:00:40,000
was such an incredible, dynamic guy, but because subsequent presidents

2913
03:00:40,040 --> 03:00:44,440
did not make mistake that Nixon did your secretary defense

2914
03:00:44,520 --> 03:00:49,159
during the Cold War, in my opinion, was was arguably

2915
03:00:49,159 --> 03:00:52,719
as important as as ah as one as a selection

2916
03:00:52,840 --> 03:01:00,239
for Attorney general. But uh, that's that's a that could be. Uh.

2917
03:01:01,079 --> 03:01:02,879
I guess they could be arguing a number of different ways,

2918
03:01:03,600 --> 03:01:06,000
but I think this might be a kind of a

2919
03:01:06,040 --> 03:01:08,920
natural stopping point. I.

2920
03:01:09,159 --> 03:01:11,799
Speaker 1: Uh, you can do your you can do your plugs.

2921
03:01:11,840 --> 03:01:16,079
You can also announce that Twitter is being Twitter again.

2922
03:01:16,520 --> 03:01:18,239
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think.

2923
03:01:21,479 --> 03:01:25,760
Speaker 1: Account you know yeah yeah. I was suspended from Twitter

2924
03:01:26,120 --> 03:01:27,680
the week Elon took over.

2925
03:01:29,239 --> 03:01:31,840
Speaker 2: It's just bizarre and like as they suspended him and

2926
03:01:31,959 --> 03:01:33,680
he's is a legit guy, and like he's afraid to

2927
03:01:33,680 --> 03:01:36,120
speak his mind, Like what what what would what? He

2928
03:01:36,200 --> 03:01:39,040
doesn't he doesn't he like blogs about I mean, he's

2929
03:01:39,120 --> 03:01:40,680
he's he's like kind of a mega guy. But what

2930
03:01:40,799 --> 03:01:42,760
what the hell is he dropping that's offensive to Twitter?

2931
03:01:43,360 --> 03:01:44,680
You know, like it's just totally random.

2932
03:01:46,600 --> 03:01:49,440
Speaker 1: Accept his love for docking back for the attack. That's

2933
03:01:49,479 --> 03:01:50,559
the only thing that really.

2934
03:01:52,799 --> 03:01:55,319
Speaker 2: But it makes no sense, like even like like the

2935
03:01:55,360 --> 03:01:57,639
things that even usually throw like their triggers like he

2936
03:01:57,879 --> 03:02:00,840
or whatever, like he like why bing him? But it's

2937
03:02:02,559 --> 03:02:04,879
but the uh but yeah, I mean and it's I

2938
03:02:05,120 --> 03:02:07,360
I but who people not every time does this has

2939
03:02:07,399 --> 03:02:10,360
happened literally a dozen times. It happens like every several weeks.

2940
03:02:10,559 --> 03:02:12,799
Everyone it happens. People act like I die or something.

2941
03:02:13,319 --> 03:02:15,399
It's like I do a lot of just like goofy

2942
03:02:15,479 --> 03:02:18,120
shit posting on Twitter. I drop some serious stuff there too,

2943
03:02:18,799 --> 03:02:22,319
but that's like it's kind of a big nothing man

2944
03:02:22,520 --> 03:02:24,600
like I use it to promote what we're doing so

2945
03:02:24,680 --> 03:02:26,639
that our people can find us, you know, and and

2946
03:02:26,760 --> 03:02:29,239
tune in for like the stuff we're doing here. This

2947
03:02:29,360 --> 03:02:31,959
idea that it's like this awesome platform that we need.

2948
03:02:32,079 --> 03:02:34,319
We don't fucking need that shit. Like I built my

2949
03:02:34,440 --> 03:02:37,479
brand when I was on no social media at all. Okay,

2950
03:02:38,360 --> 03:02:42,520
I do have an account there that is active, But

2951
03:02:42,680 --> 03:02:44,840
I I'm gonna be low key about it because like I,

2952
03:02:45,079 --> 03:02:47,680
I don't know who the hell knows like what they're

2953
03:02:48,559 --> 03:02:52,120
you know what what the kind of one can never tell,

2954
03:02:52,239 --> 03:02:53,719
like what what the lay of the land is in

2955
03:02:53,840 --> 03:02:56,239
terms of you know the I mean, who can who

2956
03:02:56,280 --> 03:03:00,399
can predict arbitrary and caprecious action, which is by definition

2957
03:03:00,520 --> 03:03:06,719
is arbitrary caprecious. But I'm transitioning to YouTube, that's like

2958
03:03:06,799 --> 03:03:09,200
my primary platform. I'm gonna back it up on Odyssey

2959
03:03:09,280 --> 03:03:12,120
and stuff. Yes, I realized YouTube is censorious as well,

2960
03:03:12,239 --> 03:03:16,399
but I mean I've been we're we're kind of we're

2961
03:03:16,440 --> 03:03:18,680
kind of leaving Twitter behind anyway. But yeah, so I

2962
03:03:18,719 --> 03:03:20,440
don't want people acting like this is like the end

2963
03:03:20,440 --> 03:03:22,399
of the fucking world. Like it just it bothers me

2964
03:03:22,440 --> 03:03:26,559
when people act that way. But the but the yeah,

2965
03:03:26,760 --> 03:03:29,120
I mean find me on substack real Thomas seven seven

2966
03:03:29,200 --> 03:03:33,959
seven dot substick dot com. I'm on Instagram just at

2967
03:03:34,159 --> 03:03:37,000
like number seven h m A S seven seven seven.

2968
03:03:38,239 --> 03:03:40,079
The YouTube channels launching at the end of the month.

2969
03:03:40,159 --> 03:03:43,280
Like I said, I'm very excited about it, Like I

2970
03:03:43,360 --> 03:03:46,239
really am it. I there's a lot of potential there

2971
03:03:47,559 --> 03:03:49,479
and I think people will be very happy with it,

2972
03:03:51,440 --> 03:03:53,719
and I've got I'm very blessed to have some really

2973
03:03:53,760 --> 03:03:57,520
great people helping me produce it, because I certainly would

2974
03:03:57,559 --> 03:03:59,920
be pissing into the wind on on the production side

2975
03:04:00,879 --> 03:04:04,000
or not for them. But yeah, and Steel Storm two

2976
03:04:04,079 --> 03:04:07,360
is available at Imperium Press. That's the second installment in

2977
03:04:07,440 --> 03:04:11,840
my science fiction series. So yeah, please check it out

2978
03:04:12,319 --> 03:04:14,079
if you're a fan of my work product and or

2979
03:04:14,159 --> 03:04:17,079
science fiction. And that's that's all I got.

2980
03:04:17,959 --> 03:04:20,799
Speaker 1: Well, once again, thank you, and it's all the next time.

2981
03:04:22,319 --> 03:04:25,319
I want to welcome everyone back to the Kenyona Show,

2982
03:04:26,319 --> 03:04:29,360
part nine of the Cold War series. How you doing, Thomas,

2983
03:04:30,120 --> 03:04:30,680
I very well.

2984
03:04:30,840 --> 03:04:34,159
Speaker 2: Thanks. Today I wanted to talk about something that's sort

2985
03:04:34,200 --> 03:04:36,120
of a forgotten that themned them to the Vietnam War,

2986
03:04:36,440 --> 03:04:43,159
And like I raised before we went live, there's some

2987
03:04:44,000 --> 03:04:47,120
there's some pretty haunting things about Vietnam. I don't want

2988
03:04:47,120 --> 03:04:49,200
to sound allo dramatic, and I don't mean in the

2989
03:04:49,239 --> 03:04:54,159
way that it's presented in most court history narratives, but

2990
03:04:54,319 --> 03:04:59,079
there are there's a lot of dishonesty about the conflict,

2991
03:04:59,159 --> 03:05:03,040
particularly among you know, in the accounts of men who

2992
03:05:03,559 --> 03:05:08,959
served in the executive branch Now, if you go to

2993
03:05:09,000 --> 03:05:12,559
the Vietnam War Memorial, you know the wall in Washington, DC.

2994
03:05:13,639 --> 03:05:17,239
And I didn't notice this until two thousand and five.

2995
03:05:18,559 --> 03:05:22,799
You know, these the black marble or granted whatever it is.

2996
03:05:24,399 --> 03:05:26,680
I'm not a big fan of the memorial, honestly, like

2997
03:05:26,760 --> 03:05:28,719
the way it's designed. I think it's kind of morbid.

2998
03:05:28,840 --> 03:05:34,719
But because it may, each section is designated by conflict gear,

2999
03:05:35,040 --> 03:05:36,360
you know, so it's like all the men who died

3000
03:05:36,360 --> 03:05:38,840
in nineteen sixty seven in hostile action, you know, they'll

3001
03:05:39,079 --> 03:05:43,319
they'll be like their names the final panels nineteen seventy five.

3002
03:05:45,840 --> 03:05:49,479
So I figured, okay, that's probably I didn't think there

3003
03:05:49,479 --> 03:05:53,079
are any casualties of the embassy marines or whatever during

3004
03:05:54,319 --> 03:06:00,840
occupation or operation. I think it was enduring wind the

3005
03:06:00,879 --> 03:06:04,040
evacuation of Saigon. But I noticed there's like thirty eight

3006
03:06:04,159 --> 03:06:07,639
or some names on it, and I'm like, that's not right.

3007
03:06:09,200 --> 03:06:14,719
And uh lo, and behold the men who died on

3008
03:06:14,920 --> 03:06:17,559
Ko Tang, the Battle of Ko Tang Island against the

3009
03:06:17,639 --> 03:06:21,600
Khmer Rouge, where it just kind of as an afterthought

3010
03:06:21,719 --> 03:06:23,879
tacked down to the Vietnam War Wall, which doesn't make

3011
03:06:23,920 --> 03:06:27,000
any sense. The Battle of Kotang was not the final

3012
03:06:27,120 --> 03:06:30,719
battle of the Vietnam War. It was against an entirely

3013
03:06:30,920 --> 03:06:33,360
it was against it, you know, it was waved against

3014
03:06:33,360 --> 03:06:37,559
an entirely different regime in an entirely different country for

3015
03:06:37,959 --> 03:06:41,040
totally unrelated reasons. And I found that to be kind

3016
03:06:41,079 --> 03:06:46,879
of grotesque. But some years later Rumsfeld wrote a couple

3017
03:06:46,920 --> 03:06:52,440
of books. Okay, he wrote his autobiography and then he

3018
03:06:52,479 --> 03:06:56,479
wrote his memoirs. And Rumsfeld really cut his teeth in

3019
03:06:56,639 --> 03:07:02,360
government as the White Awshiva staff from the Ford administration,

3020
03:07:03,600 --> 03:07:05,719
and he talked about the Battle of Ko Tang like

3021
03:07:05,840 --> 03:07:08,399
it was this great operation and you know, there was

3022
03:07:08,440 --> 03:07:11,079
only I think he said there was only three casualties,

3023
03:07:11,120 --> 03:07:14,799
which is perverse. And we'll get into why. It was

3024
03:07:14,840 --> 03:07:17,600
just like an out and out lie. And this disturbed me.

3025
03:07:17,680 --> 03:07:20,559
I mean, I suppose the rebuttal would be, well, you know,

3026
03:07:20,719 --> 03:07:23,479
Rumsfeld is recalling things then that were, you know, thirty

3027
03:07:23,520 --> 03:07:26,879
five years in the past. Rumsfeld had a photographic memory.

3028
03:07:27,200 --> 03:07:30,719
He used to brag about that. And Uh, my dad

3029
03:07:30,799 --> 03:07:34,479
made the point. When my dad got out of the army, Uh,

3030
03:07:34,639 --> 03:07:38,959
he went to work for McGeorge Bundy and they developed

3031
03:07:39,040 --> 03:07:42,000
kind of a rapport, you know. Uh, and my dad

3032
03:07:42,079 --> 03:07:45,840
used to drive him around and stuff like that. And uh,

3033
03:07:46,120 --> 03:07:51,000
my dad met Rumsfeld during his tenure with Bundy. You know,

3034
03:07:51,079 --> 03:07:53,760
my dad was just like a nobody, you know, so

3035
03:07:53,879 --> 03:07:56,239
there was no way for Rumsfeld to remember him. And

3036
03:07:56,319 --> 03:08:02,200
then decades later, my dad and a Rumsfeld at some

3037
03:08:02,440 --> 03:08:05,239
like CFR thing, and Rumsfeld addressed him by his first

3038
03:08:05,360 --> 03:08:08,120
name because he just that's the way the guy is.

3039
03:08:08,200 --> 03:08:10,399
So Rumsfeld, what I'm getting his rumhold not forget what

3040
03:08:10,479 --> 03:08:12,879
the casualties were at Ko Tang, and he didn't just

3041
03:08:12,879 --> 03:08:17,879
get confused about, you know, what actually happened there. Nor

3042
03:08:18,000 --> 03:08:21,040
do I believe somebody ghost wrote the book and Rumsfeld

3043
03:08:21,040 --> 03:08:25,680
didn't fact check it. So I mean that's I guess

3044
03:08:25,719 --> 03:08:27,399
what what kind of jumped out of me is that

3045
03:08:27,520 --> 03:08:29,440
this this was still being kind of swept under the

3046
03:08:29,520 --> 03:08:33,159
rug like decades later. So what was the Mayagas incident

3047
03:08:33,280 --> 03:08:38,840
and why is it important? Well? On May twelfth, ninety

3048
03:08:38,879 --> 03:08:46,239
seventy five, uh a uh an American cargo ship s S.

3049
03:08:46,559 --> 03:08:50,120
Mayag Is the A crew at thirty nine. It was

3050
03:08:50,719 --> 03:08:56,360
off the territorial coast of Cambodia, you know, which was

3051
03:08:56,440 --> 03:08:59,040
then which was then ruled by the commuter route. You know,

3052
03:08:59,079 --> 03:09:02,680
two weeks before and UH they had conquered the capitol,

3053
03:09:04,719 --> 03:09:10,440
they got captured. The Kremier Rugs claimed that they were

3054
03:09:10,479 --> 03:09:15,040
in territorial waters. UH. The captain of the Mayagas subsequently

3055
03:09:15,120 --> 03:09:19,079
claimed like they were fired upon by teeth by peat

3056
03:09:19,319 --> 03:09:26,799
by pt boats and you know, corralled into Cambodian territory. Regardless,

3057
03:09:28,600 --> 03:09:34,120
this whole crew was seized. UH. This UH had echoes

3058
03:09:34,200 --> 03:09:38,040
of UH when the North Koreans had UH seized the Pueblo,

3059
03:09:38,799 --> 03:09:41,479
which is the navy intelligence vessel in nineteen sixty eight,

3060
03:09:42,920 --> 03:09:46,799
and UH, the North Koreans grabbed the Pueblo at the

3061
03:09:46,879 --> 03:09:49,000
height of the tet offensive and being there it was

3062
03:09:49,040 --> 03:09:52,559
an intelligent ship, the North Koreans were able to seize

3063
03:09:52,639 --> 03:09:57,120
encryption equipment. And it's believed that, UH, it's believed that

3064
03:09:57,239 --> 03:10:00,239
John Walker, not John Walker Land, a different John Wallcker

3065
03:10:00,280 --> 03:10:05,360
who became associated with infamy and freezing. He was this

3066
03:10:05,520 --> 03:10:09,600
naval officer who, UH, as it turned out, was spying

3067
03:10:09,680 --> 03:10:12,600
for the Soviet Union for decades. And it's believed that

3068
03:10:12,879 --> 03:10:17,360
you know, the North Koreans conveyed UH this naval encryption

3069
03:10:17,520 --> 03:10:22,280
equipment to Moscow. Walker then provided Moscow with like the

3070
03:10:22,959 --> 03:10:25,319
with the ciphers so that they could you know, that

3071
03:10:25,440 --> 03:10:31,440
the Soviets could could decode you know, the encrypted language.

3072
03:10:31,879 --> 03:10:33,399
So I mean this was a this was a big deal,

3073
03:10:33,920 --> 03:10:40,879
you know, and it it and it you know, there,

3074
03:10:41,079 --> 03:10:44,200
even if Johnson had a stronger mandate, and even if

3075
03:10:44,239 --> 03:10:47,360
the Vietnam War was going better, Uh, the United States

3076
03:10:47,399 --> 03:10:49,600
wasn't really a position you know, opened up another front

3077
03:10:49,639 --> 03:10:51,680
in Asia and you know, wage war with North Korea.

3078
03:10:52,760 --> 03:10:55,079
But there's evidence that in part the North Koreans via

3079
03:10:55,159 --> 03:10:58,319
the Chinese, were very much trying to facilitate that. But

3080
03:10:59,000 --> 03:11:01,000
that's a little bit outside this go. But in any event,

3081
03:11:02,639 --> 03:11:04,280
Ford was not going to allow a repeat of the

3082
03:11:04,280 --> 03:11:11,840
Pueblo incident. So immediately, obviously, you know, the uh, the

3083
03:11:12,440 --> 03:11:18,920
the National Security Council convened secondary defense, UH, which at

3084
03:11:18,959 --> 03:11:25,319
the time was Schlessinger, who uh, I've got nothing nice

3085
03:11:25,360 --> 03:11:28,959
to say about. People who remember him at all generally

3086
03:11:29,040 --> 03:11:32,239
remember him for some incredibly slanderous things that he said

3087
03:11:32,239 --> 03:11:36,360
about President Nixon. But he uh, you know, Nixon played

3088
03:11:36,440 --> 03:11:41,280
musical chairs with his cabinet kind of like mister Trump did.

3089
03:11:41,399 --> 03:11:43,760
Although there was obviously there was more kind of rhyme

3090
03:11:43,799 --> 03:11:49,040
and reason to to uh Nixon's staff decisions. But uh,

3091
03:11:49,399 --> 03:11:53,520
Schlessinger had succeeded Elliott Richardson. Elliot Richardson had succeeded Melvin

3092
03:11:53,600 --> 03:11:55,520
Laird Like none of these men like Stir for more

3093
03:11:55,639 --> 03:11:59,239
than several months. Okay, but he was a holdover from

3094
03:11:59,239 --> 03:12:04,079
the Nickson ministry for better or worse. So is Kissinger,

3095
03:12:04,120 --> 03:12:10,120
who was Secretary of State at the time. But uh,

3096
03:12:11,399 --> 03:12:15,840
And what's important, what's important to keep in mind during

3097
03:12:15,920 --> 03:12:18,319
this time is that there was no Special Operations Command.

3098
03:12:20,079 --> 03:12:23,719
The US military was kind of a mess. You know,

3099
03:12:23,840 --> 03:12:26,719
this was only this was less This was less than

3100
03:12:26,760 --> 03:12:30,040
a year and a half after the draft had had ended,

3101
03:12:31,159 --> 03:12:35,600
the all Volunteer Force was being implemented. There's a there's

3102
03:12:35,639 --> 03:12:39,280
a there's a draw down in uh in the number

3103
03:12:39,319 --> 03:12:46,280
of h division sized combat capable formations. So basically, uh,

3104
03:12:47,360 --> 03:12:51,399
the the Cold War flash points in Europe and in

3105
03:12:51,440 --> 03:12:54,520
Asia were really being manned by a skeleton crew, as

3106
03:12:54,559 --> 03:12:57,319
it were, and there was not this like rapid deployment capability,

3107
03:12:57,360 --> 03:13:02,479
and there was no Special Operations Command. So you know,

3108
03:13:02,520 --> 03:13:06,280
the kind of instinctive response people have in reading about

3109
03:13:06,280 --> 03:13:08,280
the Mayagas was like, well, why didn't you know? What

3110
03:13:08,360 --> 03:13:11,440
didn't so commerce predecessor, just like deploy Navy seals or

3111
03:13:11,479 --> 03:13:17,360
something like that. Infrastructure didn't exist. And also and uh

3112
03:13:19,280 --> 03:13:23,440
as the crow flies. I think the closest UH combat

3113
03:13:23,520 --> 03:13:30,159
capable force to UH to Cambodia would have been located

3114
03:13:30,159 --> 03:13:32,920
in Okanawa. Nineteen seventy five. Okay, like this was, this

3115
03:13:33,120 --> 03:13:35,559
was this is heigh of the Cold War. You know,

3116
03:13:35,639 --> 03:13:39,239
this was not America did not have you know, four

3117
03:13:39,319 --> 03:13:43,840
deployments all over this planet, you know that, And it

3118
03:13:44,079 --> 03:13:47,520
didn't have the commanding control nor the forces in't being

3119
03:13:47,760 --> 03:13:52,079
you know, to respond to something like this instantaneously. Yeah,

3120
03:13:53,840 --> 03:13:55,879
but I mean I've seen it seems short sighted, I

3121
03:13:55,959 --> 03:13:58,719
guess that people today, But it's history in the rearview mirror,

3122
03:13:58,959 --> 03:14:00,840
Like this was not this kind of thing was not

3123
03:14:00,920 --> 03:14:03,440
really within the contemplation of of of the Department of

3124
03:14:03,479 --> 03:14:05,159
Defense either. It was it was not the kind of

3125
03:14:05,239 --> 03:14:09,159
exigencies that were emerging in nineteen seventy five in any

3126
03:14:09,479 --> 03:14:15,079
any kind of regular or predictable capacity. But because it

3127
03:14:15,159 --> 03:14:20,760
may like we talked about, like we talked about last

3128
03:14:21,159 --> 03:14:27,319
couple of episodes, Cambodia and the Kremie Rouge was absolutely

3129
03:14:27,479 --> 03:14:31,360
a client regime of the people's Republic in China. This

3130
03:14:31,520 --> 03:14:36,959
created some strange intrigues. As you know, Pet King was

3131
03:14:37,159 --> 03:14:40,920
decoupled from Moscow in a real way. And this was

3132
03:14:40,959 --> 03:14:45,399
you know, solidified by the efforts of a Nixon and Kissinger.

3133
03:14:47,239 --> 03:14:52,799
America had to tread somewhat lightly too in order to

3134
03:14:52,879 --> 03:14:59,920
preserve that just a uh an immediate kind of brought

3135
03:15:00,040 --> 03:15:04,680
spectrum assault on Khmer Rouge Cambodia, which they had they

3136
03:15:04,760 --> 03:15:09,280
were calling Democratic Campuccia. That would have caused real problems

3137
03:15:10,719 --> 03:15:15,760
and uh that could have uh that wouldn't have this

3138
03:15:16,079 --> 03:15:19,120
the Sino Soviet split by that point, was that the

3139
03:15:19,239 --> 03:15:23,079
chasm was too great. Proverbially, that wouldn't have driven the

3140
03:15:23,239 --> 03:15:26,159
Chinese back into the arms of Warsaw Pact, but it

3141
03:15:26,319 --> 03:15:31,159
definitely would have generated momentum in that direction. Okay, So

3142
03:15:31,280 --> 03:15:33,719
that's kind of the subtext of this, and that's one

3143
03:15:33,760 --> 03:15:36,040
of the reasons why I think it's an important It's

3144
03:15:36,079 --> 03:15:38,680
not just you know, like a footnote of history. It's

3145
03:15:38,719 --> 03:15:41,879
something that deserves to be talked about, not just because

3146
03:15:41,879 --> 03:15:44,440
the men that were lost there and and the three

3147
03:15:44,479 --> 03:15:46,920
of them in particular stuff for an utterly horrible fate

3148
03:15:47,280 --> 03:15:53,159
that we'll get into, but it's imperative to understand, uh,

3149
03:15:54,079 --> 03:15:57,600
you know, how complicated and how strange the late Cold

3150
03:15:57,680 --> 03:16:05,520
War became. And obviously later you know, uh, in nineteen

3151
03:16:05,520 --> 03:16:09,559
seventy nine, the Hanoi government quite literally went to war

3152
03:16:09,639 --> 03:16:19,559
with China, and uh, concomitantly, you know, the the Vietnamese

3153
03:16:19,559 --> 03:16:23,159
assaulted into Cambodia, deposed the Khmer Rouge and and this

3154
03:16:23,360 --> 03:16:27,440
you know, decades long conflict ensued, you know, between the

3155
03:16:27,520 --> 03:16:30,520
Vietnamese occupiers and the Khmer Rouge have been driven off

3156
03:16:30,559 --> 03:16:33,840
into the bush, which was very much a proxy war

3157
03:16:33,959 --> 03:16:36,600
between the people's public as China and the Soviet Union,

3158
03:16:37,479 --> 03:16:40,680
which I mean not to be flippant about it, because

3159
03:16:40,840 --> 03:16:44,719
I mean, you know this, the cost in human suffering

3160
03:16:44,879 --> 03:16:49,360
was immense, but uh, creating generating that conflict was kind

3161
03:16:49,399 --> 03:16:52,280
of a master stroke of the Nixon White House and

3162
03:16:52,360 --> 03:16:59,239
subsequent administrations who continued to cultivate that divide and conquer strategy.

3163
03:17:00,159 --> 03:17:06,559
But there's some uh, there's some evidence, uh, if one

3164
03:17:06,639 --> 03:17:10,440
knows what to look for, the Chinese had absolutely no

3165
03:17:10,559 --> 03:17:15,200
interest in sabotaging the kind of strategic alliance for the

3166
03:17:15,399 --> 03:17:18,239
America which was then still pretty fresh. But at the

3167
03:17:18,319 --> 03:17:22,799
same time, you know, China was not America's friend, and

3168
03:17:23,399 --> 03:17:27,360
they were just as prone to intrigues as uh. As ever,

3169
03:17:28,440 --> 03:17:32,280
I believe that the Chinese probably directed uh the Kmier

3170
03:17:32,399 --> 03:17:37,799
rouge to seize them uh, to seize the uh mayagas

3171
03:17:38,200 --> 03:17:41,120
or at least once it happened, you know, they they

3172
03:17:41,280 --> 03:17:46,559
they they they endorsed that move. And I think the

3173
03:17:46,719 --> 03:17:49,280
I think the long game for Pet King was that

3174
03:17:49,959 --> 03:17:52,920
then they could intervene as like negotiator. It would be

3175
03:17:53,000 --> 03:17:55,079
a way to kind of bloody Uncle Sam's nose in

3176
03:17:55,200 --> 03:17:59,000
terms of global credibility, you know, cast China as uh

3177
03:18:00,319 --> 03:18:04,360
you know kind of uh the arbiter of a of

3178
03:18:05,959 --> 03:18:09,799
of warrant piece affairs in the Orient and uh. Plus

3179
03:18:09,879 --> 03:18:13,239
it would generate good will, at least in pay King's

3180
03:18:13,280 --> 03:18:17,719
mind with uh you know, whatever government replaced the Ford administration.

3181
03:18:18,559 --> 03:18:22,360
And that sounds totally backwards, it's strange, but that's the

3182
03:18:22,440 --> 03:18:26,520
way that the Chinese think and thought it is. It's

3183
03:18:26,520 --> 03:18:31,399
an arguable examples are myriad. If people think I'm just

3184
03:18:31,520 --> 03:18:33,239
you know, kind of mouthing off they don't like the

3185
03:18:33,360 --> 03:18:38,200
Chinese or whatever, But this was a delicate situation, is

3186
03:18:38,360 --> 03:18:42,120
uh what I'm getting at, you know, beyond the obvious

3187
03:18:42,239 --> 03:18:47,760
fact that that any kind of hostage rescue operation is

3188
03:18:48,280 --> 03:18:54,959
is is kind of the worst possible in operational terms,

3189
03:18:55,280 --> 03:18:58,479
UH circumstance to emerge. You know, one doesn't need to

3190
03:18:58,520 --> 03:19:01,200
be H one doesn't need to be some high speed

3191
03:19:01,360 --> 03:19:09,239
military type to recognize that. But the way it played

3192
03:19:09,280 --> 03:19:16,319
out in UH operational terms was for for it was

3193
03:19:16,360 --> 03:19:20,200
informed the seizure of the make of the Mayagas at

3194
03:19:20,280 --> 03:19:26,680
his UH morning briefing on UH the sixteenth, like I said,

3195
03:19:26,680 --> 03:19:31,360
the National Security Council was convened Brent Scowcroft, who, as

3196
03:19:31,399 --> 03:19:34,520
I'm sure people will recognize, you know, later went on

3197
03:19:35,639 --> 03:19:38,200
to play a major role in the Reagan administration, particularly

3198
03:19:38,200 --> 03:19:44,120
Reagan's first term. You know, he he basically early on

3199
03:19:44,399 --> 03:19:48,239
in the crisis was UH what was the one who

3200
03:19:48,360 --> 03:19:53,159
uh you know convened UH what ultimately became you know,

3201
03:19:53,239 --> 03:19:56,200
the parties who determined what what the what the operational

3202
03:19:56,280 --> 03:20:05,520
response would be for better or worse? The UH, the

3203
03:20:08,840 --> 03:20:11,639
the big concern I mean obviously aside from the you know,

3204
03:20:12,479 --> 03:20:17,239
the issues are just indicated relating to a relating the

3205
03:20:17,440 --> 03:20:20,840
UH US Chinese relations and everything else. America had a

3206
03:20:20,879 --> 03:20:23,879
major credibility problem, and like we talked, you know, owing

3207
03:20:23,920 --> 03:20:27,440
to the falls Saigon. And as we talked about I

3208
03:20:27,479 --> 03:20:30,920
think last episode, I'm not just overstating that because it's

3209
03:20:31,000 --> 03:20:35,319
kind of my peculiar emphasis as a revisionist. This was

3210
03:20:36,799 --> 03:20:41,159
in the Cold War, particularly as UH strategic parody set

3211
03:20:41,200 --> 03:20:44,680
in which UH in the later region of era was

3212
03:20:45,319 --> 03:20:47,079
I mean, it was was kind of the you know

3213
03:20:48,600 --> 03:20:52,360
what was was the height of that kind of paradigm shift.

3214
03:20:53,840 --> 03:20:57,040
The United States enjoying credibility and its ability to project

3215
03:20:57,079 --> 03:21:02,680
power successfully, you know, when a third world That's basically

3216
03:21:02,840 --> 03:21:08,520
what the entire Truman doctrine hinged upon, and the entire

3217
03:21:08,760 --> 03:21:14,239
American Cold War strategy in in military terms, hinged on

3218
03:21:14,319 --> 03:21:19,399
the Truman doctrine. Okay, so coming off of UH, coming

3219
03:21:19,479 --> 03:21:22,559
off of defeat and Saigon, despite you know, however much

3220
03:21:22,600 --> 03:21:24,559
that had been mitigated by the sound of Soviet split.

3221
03:21:25,280 --> 03:21:29,799
In pure military and strategic terms, if America had proven

3222
03:21:29,920 --> 03:21:34,280
unable or lacking in the will to respond UH to

3223
03:21:34,399 --> 03:21:39,159
the seizure, that mayegg isn't its crew Well, in you know,

3224
03:21:39,360 --> 03:21:43,959
military operational terms, that would have UH, that would have

3225
03:21:44,000 --> 03:21:49,159
had real world consequences and UH, and and that that's

3226
03:21:49,479 --> 03:21:51,399
that's really what was on the minds of you know,

3227
03:21:51,520 --> 03:21:58,120
Ford himself and everybody in his National Security cabinet. Ford

3228
03:21:58,159 --> 03:22:01,200
immediately issued a statement declaring at the seizure of the

3229
03:22:01,920 --> 03:22:04,719
vessel was an act of piracy, which is interesting language,

3230
03:22:04,719 --> 03:22:10,280
which wasn't really precedented. And the context understand that statement

3231
03:22:10,319 --> 03:22:12,959
within it wasn't just him, It wasn't just the president

3232
03:22:13,520 --> 03:22:17,280
relying upon you know, kind of cringe polemic. What he

3233
03:22:17,399 --> 03:22:18,959
was saying was, I mean, this this was the era

3234
03:22:19,079 --> 03:22:22,440
when people were banding that you know, the president had

3235
03:22:22,479 --> 03:22:26,559
to have you know, approval from Congress before he, uh,

3236
03:22:27,159 --> 03:22:29,440
you know, acted in the Article two commander in chief

3237
03:22:29,559 --> 03:22:32,159
role and like nonsense like the War Powers Act was

3238
03:22:32,200 --> 03:22:36,520
being floated. Okay, I don't want to start a constitutional debate,

3239
03:22:36,719 --> 03:22:40,360
but that kind of stuff was emergent from the hangover

3240
03:22:40,520 --> 03:22:43,120
over over the Vietnam conflict that that does not have

3241
03:22:43,200 --> 03:22:45,200
a leg to stand on according to the letter of

3242
03:22:45,239 --> 03:22:50,360
the Constitution. But because that was the tenor of discourse,

3243
03:22:51,440 --> 03:22:53,479
forded to send some kind of message that you know,

3244
03:22:53,799 --> 03:22:56,360
he was not gonna he was not gonna he was

3245
03:22:56,360 --> 03:22:58,959
not gonna await some kind of congressional debate. And whether

3246
03:22:59,040 --> 03:23:00,440
or not, you know, he was off the rise, he

3247
03:23:00,559 --> 03:23:03,120
was forc against the Premier Rouge. You know, he's saying, like,

3248
03:23:03,239 --> 03:23:08,079
you know, this is outside of the bounds of of

3249
03:23:08,440 --> 03:23:12,200
of ordinary international relations, and you know I'm gonna respond

3250
03:23:12,239 --> 03:23:14,479
to OVERI fit that's reading between the lines. I find

3251
03:23:14,479 --> 03:23:17,799
that very interesting. I can't think of a more unenviable

3252
03:23:18,959 --> 03:23:22,760
position to be in than, you know, the American president

3253
03:23:22,920 --> 03:23:27,719
in the aftermath of Watergate, being faced with a you know,

3254
03:23:28,399 --> 03:23:32,040
a kind of asymmetrical national security crisis like this that

3255
03:23:32,200 --> 03:23:36,600
calls for you know, immediate decisive action that I mean,

3256
03:23:36,639 --> 03:23:42,079
that's never a particularly desirable situation to find oneself in,

3257
03:23:42,280 --> 03:23:47,360
but in that era, and then specifically in that moment,

3258
03:23:47,639 --> 03:23:49,639
you know, weeks after the fullest I gone like I

3259
03:23:49,680 --> 03:23:58,559
can't even imagine. But secret to state Schlessinger, what he

3260
03:23:58,680 --> 03:24:02,159
did immediately was he directed the Joint Chiefs to order

3261
03:24:02,200 --> 03:24:08,079
their people in theater to locate the mayaga Is and

3262
03:24:08,120 --> 03:24:12,600
at all costs prevent the vessel's movement to mainland Cambodia,

3263
03:24:13,639 --> 03:24:17,319
employing all the des ury munitions required to do that,

3264
03:24:18,159 --> 03:24:21,120
but obviously taking care not to harm you know, the

3265
03:24:21,719 --> 03:24:27,120
hostage crew. Kissinger, and this was fascinating, immediately went into action.

3266
03:24:28,000 --> 03:24:30,319
But he didn't contact the Khmer Rouge or attempt to.

3267
03:24:31,479 --> 03:24:34,120
What he did was he conducted the Chinese liaison office

3268
03:24:34,159 --> 03:24:40,719
in Washington and he immediately demanded to release the mayag

3269
03:24:40,959 --> 03:24:45,520
is and to convey that message to the Khmer Rouge

3270
03:24:45,559 --> 03:24:51,440
on the ground. The whoever the formal diplomatic representative of

3271
03:24:51,559 --> 03:24:55,920
Pey King was, refused to accept the note, saying basically,

3272
03:24:55,959 --> 03:24:59,399
I can't take responsibility for this gets injured. Then tapped

3273
03:24:59,440 --> 03:25:04,399
George Herber Walker Busch, who at that time was leading

3274
03:25:04,559 --> 03:25:08,680
the counterpart lie as an office in Pey King. He

3275
03:25:08,840 --> 03:25:14,879
delivered the note personally to the Chinese Foreign Ministry and he,

3276
03:25:15,440 --> 03:25:18,799
according to Bush himself, and uh, I don't see why

3277
03:25:18,799 --> 03:25:24,680
you would lie about this. He conveyed orally that if

3278
03:25:24,719 --> 03:25:26,799
there was not you know, if the immediate release of

3279
03:25:27,200 --> 03:25:31,799
of the Mayaga's crew was not you know, was not realized,

3280
03:25:32,600 --> 03:25:39,040
that uh, the Khmer rou should be held responsible collectively

3281
03:25:39,319 --> 03:25:42,799
and there'd be a massive shock and awe assault on

3282
03:25:43,200 --> 03:25:49,399
Panolan Penn And again the this wasn't just diplomatic protocol

3283
03:25:49,559 --> 03:25:52,639
that both Kissinger and then Bush approached China. I mean

3284
03:25:52,639 --> 03:25:54,840
it goes to show you what was underway behind the scenes,

3285
03:25:54,879 --> 03:25:59,399
and that this obviously the most charitable view to take

3286
03:25:59,520 --> 03:26:02,559
of it is that, well, you know, the Khmer Rouge,

3287
03:26:02,799 --> 03:26:05,440
they were paranoid psychos and it was this kind of

3288
03:26:05,520 --> 03:26:09,360
backwards revolutionary regime. They grabbed the Mayagas just because they

3289
03:26:09,399 --> 03:26:12,360
were paranoid. Then when they realized, you know, that it

3290
03:26:12,440 --> 03:26:14,600
was a US flag vessel, they freaked out and didn't

3291
03:26:14,639 --> 03:26:18,559
know what to do. The most kind of punitive view

3292
03:26:18,639 --> 03:26:21,360
of it is that, you know what I the possibility

3293
03:26:21,399 --> 03:26:24,959
I raised a moment ago, was that the Chinese orchestrated this,

3294
03:26:25,159 --> 03:26:31,879
as you know, part of a Machiavilian kind of intrigue drama,

3295
03:26:32,079 --> 03:26:34,280
which they've done in the past, frankly, and continue to

3296
03:26:34,319 --> 03:26:37,879
do so today, albeit and less punctuated in violent terms.

3297
03:26:38,440 --> 03:26:43,319
But regardless, Washington obviously was aware that, you know, China

3298
03:26:43,440 --> 03:26:47,479
was either responsible for this and in approximate causal terms

3299
03:26:47,879 --> 03:26:51,920
or had the power to force a resolution. And that

3300
03:26:52,040 --> 03:26:54,319
tells you everything you need to know about the relationship

3301
03:26:54,360 --> 03:26:57,639
between the Khmer Rouge, the Vietnamese, the Soviet Union, China

3302
03:26:57,680 --> 03:27:07,159
in the United States. H Subsequently, the Khmuho's tried to

3303
03:27:07,399 --> 03:27:12,959
do exactly that, release the Mayaga's crew unharmed, which we'll see,

3304
03:27:13,079 --> 03:27:17,719
and I think that further substantiates, you know, my kind

3305
03:27:17,760 --> 03:27:22,959
of uh spitball analysis. But I, like I said, I'm

3306
03:27:23,000 --> 03:27:26,319
not I'm not just speculating or conspiracy theorizing. I think

3307
03:27:26,319 --> 03:27:30,920
anyone who spends time with the factual record and you know,

3308
03:27:31,120 --> 03:27:34,719
kind of read between the lines of American diplomacy speak,

3309
03:27:35,479 --> 03:27:42,120
I think this becomes clear. Okay, back to the uh

3310
03:27:42,840 --> 03:27:48,159
kind of practical operational side of it, though the uh

3311
03:27:50,479 --> 03:27:56,120
it was on the the following day, it was confirmed

3312
03:27:56,120 --> 03:27:58,399
that the Mayagas was off the coast of Ko Tang,

3313
03:28:00,159 --> 03:28:06,040
which is an island in Cambodian territorial waters which the

3314
03:28:06,120 --> 03:28:10,840
Khmuter Rouge had fortified after the after Prono and Pen fell,

3315
03:28:11,719 --> 03:28:15,040
which it later became clear that they'd done so in

3316
03:28:15,120 --> 03:28:19,159
anticipation of a Vietnamese naval assault, because their big fear

3317
03:28:19,280 --> 03:28:22,840
was that it would be used as a staging ground,

3318
03:28:23,959 --> 03:28:27,200
you know, to assault in mainland presumably as you know,

3319
03:28:27,319 --> 03:28:33,440
a secondary theater to a divert kremue Ruse forces and

3320
03:28:33,559 --> 03:28:39,079
being from you know whatever across border Loca I had

3321
03:28:39,159 --> 03:28:42,000
had been the you know, the the spair plannks as

3322
03:28:42,159 --> 03:28:46,280
were of of the Vietnamese of potential Vietnamese assault I

3323
03:28:46,360 --> 03:28:48,360
can't speak how problem that would have been, because I mean,

3324
03:28:48,399 --> 03:28:52,559
who knows, but it wasn't. It was entirely reasonable to

3325
03:28:52,840 --> 03:28:56,520
you know, anticipate that at the time and with what

3326
03:28:56,680 --> 03:28:59,600
was underway. And I mean ultimately the Vietnamese did. I

3327
03:28:59,680 --> 03:29:01,440
mean that's what the posed the com rouge was a

3328
03:29:01,520 --> 03:29:04,799
Vietnamese attack. So I mean this was not just this

3329
03:29:04,959 --> 03:29:08,680
is not just an alibi of a of the regime,

3330
03:29:09,000 --> 03:29:12,200
whatever else we can say about it and its credibility.

3331
03:29:13,879 --> 03:29:16,840
The absence of combat cable American forces in theater again

3332
03:29:16,959 --> 03:29:22,200
was the big problem. The closest, uh truly comic cable

3333
03:29:22,239 --> 03:29:26,479
element was the second Battalion, ninth Marines, when a training

3334
03:29:26,879 --> 03:29:30,799
who were then engaged in a trainingcise on Okinawa and

3335
03:29:31,760 --> 03:29:34,559
on the night of the thirteenth of May, which was

3336
03:29:34,600 --> 03:29:39,280
the day after the that the seizure of the the

3337
03:29:39,360 --> 03:29:42,920
vessel itself, they were ordered to return a camp and

3338
03:29:42,959 --> 03:29:48,799
prepare for departure by air on May fourteenth. It Uh,

3339
03:29:49,959 --> 03:29:56,399
the problem was this was a heavy I mean, this

3340
03:29:56,559 --> 03:29:59,520
is this, this was not this is this is the

3341
03:29:59,559 --> 03:30:02,000
proverbial operation. Every one needs to go into light. I mean,

3342
03:30:02,120 --> 03:30:04,239
like again, these days we would think of it as

3343
03:30:04,239 --> 03:30:06,159
like a Sealed Team six or like a Delta Forest

3344
03:30:06,200 --> 03:30:11,280
kind of operation, and uh, this is not really what

3345
03:30:11,399 --> 03:30:14,200
people were training for at that time, and there was

3346
03:30:14,200 --> 03:30:16,840
an by nineteen seventy five, there was there was a

3347
03:30:16,920 --> 03:30:21,680
handful of officers with second Italian ninth Marines who died,

3348
03:30:21,879 --> 03:30:25,200
you know, been under fire in Vietnam, but virtually none

3349
03:30:25,200 --> 03:30:30,120
of the enlisted matter Renco's head. You know, the idea taken.

3350
03:30:31,120 --> 03:30:33,040
I mean, however tough these guys were, and I'm sure

3351
03:30:33,040 --> 03:30:37,639
that they were like a hard dudes taking you know,

3352
03:30:37,719 --> 03:30:41,559
taking a marine element that had not been in combat before,

3353
03:30:42,319 --> 03:30:45,280
and you know, kind of breaking their proverbial sherry, you know,

3354
03:30:45,360 --> 03:30:49,479
by having them assault a ship that had been taken hostage.

3355
03:30:49,479 --> 03:30:52,200
And this in a kind of anti counter terrorist operation

3356
03:30:52,360 --> 03:30:56,520
like that seems like a recipe for disaster. Would ultimately

3357
03:30:56,559 --> 03:31:05,879
put the gobache on that planned operation. Was uh a

3358
03:31:05,920 --> 03:31:10,639
guy named General Burns, Yeah, Burns, he was commander with

3359
03:31:10,680 --> 03:31:15,360
the seventh Air Force. He uh wade in and said, look,

3360
03:31:17,879 --> 03:31:21,120
you know, it's very possible that you know, the crew

3361
03:31:21,200 --> 03:31:25,360
has already been you know, taking landside either on Ko

3362
03:31:25,479 --> 03:31:30,559
Tang itself or is being shuttled to the mainland. Regardless,

3363
03:31:30,639 --> 03:31:33,120
He's like you're gonna need more firepower than just you know,

3364
03:31:34,639 --> 03:31:37,559
then then you know, can be uh gonna be brought

3365
03:31:37,559 --> 03:31:43,600
to bear you know by dropping uh, but by dropping

3366
03:31:43,760 --> 03:31:48,959
uh by dropping the Marines, you know, by chopper onto

3367
03:31:49,120 --> 03:31:52,479
uh onto the vessel itself, you know, with you know

3368
03:31:52,600 --> 03:31:55,280
kind of like light covering fire from whatever. These I assume,

3369
03:31:55,360 --> 03:31:58,440
like I assume like Hue. I don't know if Hue

3370
03:31:58,559 --> 03:32:03,280
Cobras were fielded then yet, but yeah, yeah they would

3371
03:32:03,319 --> 03:32:05,319
have been. But I mean point being you know with uh,

3372
03:32:06,079 --> 03:32:12,639
Burns to his credit, was thinking ahead and uh his

3373
03:32:12,840 --> 03:32:19,399
idea was, uh bring to bear air Force gunships and

3374
03:32:19,440 --> 03:32:23,239
shoppers to be able to you know, saturate the island

3375
03:32:23,280 --> 03:32:28,760
of firepower if need be. And the uh you know,

3376
03:32:28,879 --> 03:32:34,760
the the hostage rescue element, he suggested, uh, the fifty

3377
03:32:34,879 --> 03:32:39,280
sixth Security Police Squadron. He is like the Air Force

3378
03:32:39,360 --> 03:32:44,239
guys who like guard like air bases at that at

3379
03:32:44,280 --> 03:32:46,120
that time, that's what they were. Like. These days, the

3380
03:32:46,159 --> 03:32:49,239
Air Force has like a high speed like like spec

3381
03:32:49,319 --> 03:32:52,680
war like element, but in those days they basically had

3382
03:32:52,719 --> 03:32:56,159
these guys were somewhat like more high speed like MPs,

3383
03:32:56,440 --> 03:32:59,600
you know, and again like that's not really that's not

3384
03:32:59,760 --> 03:33:03,360
really you know, the element you want for something like this.

3385
03:33:04,440 --> 03:33:07,639
But uh, his view at least was more kind of

3386
03:33:07,680 --> 03:33:12,760
in line with what was to develop than then than

3387
03:33:12,799 --> 03:33:22,680
that than that which was floated uh previously and in

3388
03:33:22,799 --> 03:33:30,639
this operation was actually implemented it and the Utapo Airbase

3389
03:33:30,719 --> 03:33:33,360
and Thailand, which I believe is still in use. Like

3390
03:33:33,479 --> 03:33:38,440
the idea was that these gunships and these UH and

3391
03:33:38,559 --> 03:33:41,040
these UH air Force MPs you know who are the

3392
03:33:41,079 --> 03:33:45,719
hostage rescue element, They're gonna be shuttled from the Philippines

3393
03:33:46,799 --> 03:33:55,079
to uh Utapo in Thailand to be yah different thing,

3394
03:33:55,120 --> 03:33:57,719
and then from there they were gonna assault Ko Tang

3395
03:33:58,600 --> 03:34:02,479
on the way to Thailand. Uh there was there was

3396
03:34:02,520 --> 03:34:05,520
a chopper crash and like eighteen of their number were killed.

3397
03:34:06,760 --> 03:34:09,840
So as you can see this, uh it was eighteen

3398
03:34:10,000 --> 03:34:14,479
eighteen the security police and five crewmen. So I mean,

3399
03:34:14,520 --> 03:34:16,159
as you can see, there's just getting like more and

3400
03:34:16,239 --> 03:34:18,959
more food barb by the moment. In operational terms.

3401
03:34:20,120 --> 03:34:21,799
Speaker 1: It sounds it sounds like trying to go into a

3402
03:34:21,879 --> 03:34:22,879
ram and get the hostages.

3403
03:34:23,559 --> 03:34:27,000
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, And uh, yeah, no that's that You're exactly right.

3404
03:34:27,120 --> 03:34:30,879
And this coupled with desert one and you know, with

3405
03:34:31,000 --> 03:34:36,399
which the aborded Iranian rescue mission and uh, the lack

3406
03:34:36,479 --> 03:34:39,479
of integrated command and control of Grenada. That's really what

3407
03:34:39,639 --> 03:34:43,040
created so COOM, you know, because the need for it

3408
03:34:43,159 --> 03:34:44,680
became recognized.

3409
03:34:45,719 --> 03:34:48,920
Speaker 1: Well, there was only one lost in Grenader, right, was

3410
03:34:48,959 --> 03:34:52,079
there one? I think there was only one casualty in

3411
03:34:52,120 --> 03:34:52,760
Grenader right?

3412
03:34:53,399 --> 03:34:55,639
Speaker 2: No, there was a number. And what happened was these

3413
03:34:55,719 --> 03:34:59,280
Navy seals who were there was a bunch, there's a few.

3414
03:34:59,360 --> 03:35:01,280
There was like a you know, there's an Army command element,

3415
03:35:01,360 --> 03:35:03,639
a Marine command element, and then there was these seals

3416
03:35:04,799 --> 03:35:08,440
who ended up somehow dropped in the wrong place and

3417
03:35:08,559 --> 03:35:13,040
then they ended up drownings. They weren't retrieved. Yeah, it

3418
03:35:13,079 --> 03:35:14,440
was a whole mess, and like it had to do.

3419
03:35:14,520 --> 03:35:16,440
It was literally totally avoidable when it was like a

3420
03:35:16,479 --> 03:35:17,319
command and control.

3421
03:35:18,280 --> 03:35:20,920
Speaker 1: Nineteen dead, nineteen dead, one hundred and fifty wounded.

3422
03:35:21,479 --> 03:35:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean Grenada is all. We'll get

3423
03:35:23,600 --> 03:35:25,639
into Grenada in one of the later episodes because it's

3424
03:35:25,719 --> 03:35:29,079
in political terms, Uh it it bored directly on uh

3425
03:35:30,319 --> 03:35:34,120
uh the Sandinist Revolution, and there was there was North

3426
03:35:34,200 --> 03:35:35,920
Koreans on the ground there. I mean, obviously it was

3427
03:35:35,959 --> 03:35:39,000
the Cuban element there's a couple of East Germans like

3428
03:35:39,079 --> 03:35:43,040
it's fascinating and it very much, uh, it very much

3429
03:35:43,120 --> 03:35:45,520
was what the I mean, however, anybody feels about the

3430
03:35:45,559 --> 03:35:49,559
Reagan administration, and you know, some of it's alleged overreach.

3431
03:35:51,280 --> 03:35:54,799
Grenada actually was it was it was being purposed to

3432
03:35:55,000 --> 03:36:00,440
rapidly reinforce Nicaragua and and friendly proxies like the theater.

3433
03:36:00,760 --> 03:36:03,120
You know, that was you know, the the only thing

3434
03:36:03,200 --> 03:36:05,440
to building Grenada was an airstrip for that purpose, and

3435
03:36:05,520 --> 03:36:10,159
that's exactly what they were building. But as it may,

3436
03:36:11,360 --> 03:36:14,760
after this atter, this, after this UH, after this disaster

3437
03:36:14,959 --> 03:36:20,040
with you know in uh at uh the TAPO for

3438
03:36:20,159 --> 03:36:25,399
it can be another National Security Council meeting on UH

3439
03:36:26,079 --> 03:36:33,520
on May fourteenth, the uh A communication like been established

3440
03:36:34,399 --> 03:36:38,879
with the seventh Air Force elements UH that had departed

3441
03:36:38,879 --> 03:36:42,040
from Hawaii and where the circling Ko Tang and in

3442
03:36:42,120 --> 03:36:43,840
these day, in those days, that was a closer you

3443
03:36:43,920 --> 03:36:46,559
get to like real time communications. I mean, that's another

3444
03:36:46,600 --> 03:36:48,719
thing we take for branded today. But obviously then like

3445
03:36:48,840 --> 03:36:52,079
you were, there was quite literally like blindness in theater

3446
03:36:53,319 --> 03:36:55,840
if you were the command element in in the White House,

3447
03:36:56,360 --> 03:36:58,440
you know, trying to direct military operations to the Joint

3448
03:36:58,520 --> 03:37:00,799
Chiefs of Staff and then they in turn, you know,

3449
03:37:00,879 --> 03:37:04,799
any any any data they were getting from the battlespace

3450
03:37:05,079 --> 03:37:08,760
was you know, minutes at least minutes and probably hours

3451
03:37:08,799 --> 03:37:15,079
out of date. The UH these fighters, UH they were

3452
03:37:15,120 --> 03:37:18,959
trying to What they didn't realize was that the crew

3453
03:37:19,040 --> 03:37:21,680
by this time of the Mayagas had been shuttled to

3454
03:37:21,760 --> 03:37:27,879
this fishing boat which was then UH attempting to transport

3455
03:37:27,959 --> 03:37:32,120
them to UH the mainland, this coastal city called Kampong Sum.

3456
03:37:34,440 --> 03:37:38,600
These guys their credit, these pilots who were circling in theater,

3457
03:37:39,399 --> 03:37:42,120
they recognized that that's probably was going on. They requisitive

3458
03:37:42,159 --> 03:37:45,360
permission to UH trying to shoot the rudders off of

3459
03:37:45,440 --> 03:37:48,079
this ship that was conveying them and like assault the

3460
03:37:48,120 --> 03:37:52,440
pet boats that were escorting it. Ford intervened had said that,

3461
03:37:52,879 --> 03:37:55,959
you know, the use of those kinds of munitions would

3462
03:37:56,079 --> 03:37:58,639
be would present too great risks of the crew. So

3463
03:37:58,719 --> 03:38:03,399
they put the gabash on that the UH at at

3464
03:38:03,479 --> 03:38:06,680
the same time, UH the National and Security Council, they

3465
03:38:06,719 --> 03:38:11,040
got word, UH they got word back that the Chinese

3466
03:38:11,079 --> 03:38:14,920
For and Ministry and BREAT Beijing had refused to UH

3467
03:38:15,959 --> 03:38:18,680
pass any kind of formal communication on the Khmer Rouge.

3468
03:38:19,120 --> 03:38:22,040
But Busch said that in his belie but Busch said

3469
03:38:22,079 --> 03:38:24,799
that he could all but guarantee that the Chinese are

3470
03:38:24,799 --> 03:38:28,159
putting pressure on the Khmer Rouge to comply with whatever

3471
03:38:28,239 --> 03:38:31,079
American demands were because like, obviously even if I mean,

3472
03:38:31,159 --> 03:38:33,479
like I said, I've got my own theory on this,

3473
03:38:33,799 --> 03:38:37,559
that this was very much orchestrated by Pey King. But

3474
03:38:37,760 --> 03:38:41,159
whether it was or not, obviously the situation was rapidly,

3475
03:38:41,600 --> 03:38:47,520
you know, spiraling out of control. And uh Busch, uh whatever, Uh,

3476
03:38:48,079 --> 03:38:50,600
whether a view of him charitable or or whether it's

3477
03:38:50,879 --> 03:38:54,879
you know, not particularly so. So Bush was a serious

3478
03:38:54,959 --> 03:38:57,079
guy and he very much understood the Chinese and had

3479
03:38:57,079 --> 03:38:59,040
a rapport with them. And I mean he was a

3480
03:38:59,079 --> 03:39:03,559
career intelligence And if you're relayed that in my belief, uh,

3481
03:39:04,120 --> 03:39:07,040
you know, this has been conveyed and this is what's happening.

3482
03:39:07,159 --> 03:39:11,639
I think, you know, that was I think I think

3483
03:39:12,600 --> 03:39:16,959
I think that was as good as gold. But uh,

3484
03:39:18,440 --> 03:39:21,399
the the acting chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

3485
03:39:22,200 --> 03:39:24,840
was a guy named uh, it was a guy named

3486
03:39:24,879 --> 03:39:29,840
David Jones. What he presented and this was ultimately followed

3487
03:39:29,920 --> 03:39:36,159
through in operational terms. He presented the arrange in military

3488
03:39:36,200 --> 03:39:39,600
opposite of the National Security Council and he said, you know,

3489
03:39:39,760 --> 03:39:43,280
look like we're not even sure where the Mayagus crew

3490
03:39:43,440 --> 03:39:45,959
is at this point, you know, whether there's shipboard, whether

3491
03:39:46,040 --> 03:39:49,799
they're landside, and if they're landside, where they're actually located.

3492
03:39:50,559 --> 03:39:53,799
And he's like, obviously like they are, you know, rescuing

3493
03:39:53,840 --> 03:39:56,360
them on a harmony to be our priority. But he's like,

3494
03:39:56,600 --> 03:39:58,959
we've basically got to like waste the commuter rouge because

3495
03:39:59,000 --> 03:40:00,959
like we can't just like let the slide. You know,

3496
03:40:01,000 --> 03:40:03,520
He's like, we gotta this is a credibility issue at

3497
03:40:03,520 --> 03:40:07,399
bubb all else, you know, aside. You know, obviously you

3498
03:40:07,479 --> 03:40:09,799
know we're not going to disregard the lives of our people,

3499
03:40:09,959 --> 03:40:12,479
but you know, we've got it. We've got to lay

3500
03:40:12,479 --> 03:40:14,360
as much hurt on the premier ruge as we can.

3501
03:40:15,920 --> 03:40:19,239
And from that point forward that was basically accepted by

3502
03:40:19,280 --> 03:40:27,760
the White House. It came down to three possibilities. Some

3503
03:40:27,959 --> 03:40:31,319
intelligence suggested that they were still on the mayagas. Some

3504
03:40:31,479 --> 03:40:35,040
suggested they were on Kotang Island. Others suggested that they

3505
03:40:35,079 --> 03:40:38,479
were on the fishing boat itself route uh I, bound

3506
03:40:38,559 --> 03:40:42,440
for the mainland and the you know, the coastal city

3507
03:40:42,479 --> 03:40:45,120
of Campung Som, which is what these Air Force pilots

3508
03:40:45,120 --> 03:40:48,120
were laid, which turned out to be true, incidentally, But

3509
03:40:48,840 --> 03:40:52,239
what was ultimately decided was an ancial security council decided

3510
03:40:52,239 --> 03:40:55,719
to do. They decided to deploy the Marines to take

3511
03:40:55,719 --> 03:41:00,239
the Mayagas itself, assault Kotang Island and together the ass

3512
03:41:00,319 --> 03:41:05,120
of Assault and Cambodi itself, particularly it's shipping and uh

3513
03:41:05,920 --> 03:41:08,760
it's uh it's shipping infrastructure, you know, and you know

3514
03:41:08,799 --> 03:41:13,639
all like you know, naval military targets and uh escalating

3515
03:41:13,680 --> 03:41:16,399
the Panolan pen itself, you know, and like any other

3516
03:41:16,719 --> 03:41:20,079
kind of like counter value uh targets of opportunity that

3517
03:41:20,120 --> 03:41:23,879
presented themselves. You know, if if uh if if within

3518
03:41:24,000 --> 03:41:26,360
you know, twenty four or thirty six hours or whatever,

3519
03:41:26,440 --> 03:41:32,239
you know, there wasn't resolution to the crisis. The fishing

3520
03:41:32,319 --> 03:41:36,079
boat on which uh the magus crew actually was and

3521
03:41:36,319 --> 03:41:39,680
it did arrive at Kampung Sam. The Khmun rouse commander

3522
03:41:39,959 --> 03:41:45,000
at Kampung Sam either either he had either been either

3523
03:41:45,079 --> 03:41:49,079
the Chinese had gotten to him, or he just understood

3524
03:41:49,319 --> 03:41:52,920
what was underway. He issued in order to his men,

3525
03:41:53,200 --> 03:41:55,959
like you know, I don't know you know, do not

3526
03:41:56,159 --> 03:41:59,799
harm these hostages, you know, under any circumstances. You know,

3527
03:42:00,120 --> 03:42:03,120
he asked these hostages. You know, he's like, you know,

3528
03:42:03,840 --> 03:42:06,040
I mean, I mean by that point, but established obviously

3529
03:42:06,040 --> 03:42:10,520
it was an American flag ship, you know, and he uh,

3530
03:42:10,959 --> 03:42:13,399
he asked him if the radio equipment was was operable,

3531
03:42:13,600 --> 03:42:15,920
you know, said they get it's He's like, look releasing

3532
03:42:15,959 --> 03:42:17,760
you you know, like, can you call off this assault?

3533
03:42:19,479 --> 03:42:22,680
And uh it was it turned out the radio equipment

3534
03:42:22,760 --> 03:42:26,520
was not operable, but the uh as it uh and

3535
03:42:26,680 --> 03:42:29,200
as it turned out later like one of the one

3536
03:42:29,200 --> 03:42:31,079
of the one of the guys later just closed. He's like,

3537
03:42:33,000 --> 03:42:34,159
he's like, I didn't know if we'll be able to

3538
03:42:34,200 --> 03:42:36,239
reach like any of the aircraft in the air. But

3539
03:42:36,319 --> 03:42:39,319
he's like, by that point, like I wanted He's he's like,

3540
03:42:39,399 --> 03:42:41,120
I wanted to commuter ruders to get their ass kicks.

3541
03:42:41,120 --> 03:42:42,879
So he's like, I, you know, he's like I wouldn't

3542
03:42:42,879 --> 03:42:45,399
have transmitted it anyway, which Franklin was the right call,

3543
03:42:46,959 --> 03:42:51,159
I think, but that but by that point, uh, the

3544
03:42:51,319 --> 03:43:00,159
die was cast. The uh the it was that uh

3545
03:43:01,159 --> 03:43:04,920
the U it was that around just past dawn on

3546
03:43:06,760 --> 03:43:12,760
May sixteenth, Kotang itself was assaulted. But as it as

3547
03:43:12,799 --> 03:43:15,760
it turned out, Intel suggested that there was only about

3548
03:43:15,760 --> 03:43:19,000
twenty or thirty Camire Rouge fighters on the island. It

3549
03:43:19,120 --> 03:43:21,399
turned out that there's over one hundred. And again they

3550
03:43:22,799 --> 03:43:27,000
they they they had a lot of heavy machine guns

3551
03:43:28,440 --> 03:43:31,959
among them and like uh and cruiser like squad weapons.

3552
03:43:32,000 --> 03:43:35,680
Is because you know, like we talked about a moment ago,

3553
03:43:36,120 --> 03:43:38,079
they fortified the island and as a patient of a

3554
03:43:38,200 --> 03:43:43,479
Vietnamese assault which never came. But you know, these uh,

3555
03:43:44,120 --> 03:43:47,639
the Khmer Rouge, whatever you can say about these guys,

3556
03:43:47,719 --> 03:43:53,239
were were incredibly game fighters. This pitched battle ensued between

3557
03:43:53,239 --> 03:44:01,079
the Marines and the camer Rouge. The UH, the the uh.

3558
03:44:01,799 --> 03:44:06,239
The crew of the Mayagas was safely conveyed uh back

3559
03:44:06,399 --> 03:44:09,040
from this fishing boat like back to the Mayagas itself

3560
03:44:09,680 --> 03:44:12,719
and uh and and they were they were they were

3561
03:44:12,760 --> 03:44:19,239
safely conveyed away from the battle space. But uh, when

3562
03:44:19,280 --> 03:44:21,280
it became clear that the crew had been released and

3563
03:44:21,440 --> 03:44:29,760
was safe it uh the Marines were ordered to withdraw

3564
03:44:31,680 --> 03:44:36,239
and they began uh affecting a tacticle withdraw like a

3565
03:44:36,319 --> 03:44:40,440
fighting or tree as it were. But the Marine commander

3566
03:44:40,520 --> 03:44:44,959
on the ground there was two beachheads at the eastern.

3567
03:44:45,280 --> 03:44:52,440
The commander of the easternmost UH operational area, he conveyed, like, look,

3568
03:44:52,879 --> 03:44:55,559
unless we're like wrapped, unless we're rapidly reinforced, like we're

3569
03:44:55,559 --> 03:45:00,479
gonna be overrun. So UH they reinforcem or some instead

3570
03:45:00,479 --> 03:45:03,479
have been called off. Were then directed back to Ko

3571
03:45:03,680 --> 03:45:09,600
Tang to reinforce the Marines on the ground. You know

3572
03:45:09,959 --> 03:45:14,280
this uh in this kind of chaotic withdraw that ensued,

3573
03:45:15,159 --> 03:45:19,159
there was a machine gun team of UH three marines

3574
03:45:19,520 --> 03:45:22,959
that uh in this kind of craggy they in this

3575
03:45:23,079 --> 03:45:26,200
kind of craggy area, like on the beach itself, like

3576
03:45:26,639 --> 03:45:31,200
just outside of the ever kind of shrinking perimeter. You know,

3577
03:45:31,319 --> 03:45:36,559
they'd uh they'd set up a UH an ad hoc

3578
03:45:36,680 --> 03:45:40,799
machine gun nest and they'd been left behind in the

3579
03:45:40,840 --> 03:45:47,440
wake of the withdrawal. And UH one of the one

3580
03:45:47,520 --> 03:45:52,319
of these guys platoon mates had said on board the shopper, like,

3581
03:45:52,760 --> 03:45:55,760
you know, there's there's at least three men on the

3582
03:45:55,799 --> 03:46:03,000
ground there. For some reason, this wasn't this wasn't a

3583
03:46:03,079 --> 03:46:05,600
biden And I realized, like in the middle of a

3584
03:46:05,639 --> 03:46:08,000
hot alz, like in the midst of a firefight. I mean,

3585
03:46:08,040 --> 03:46:12,319
I'm sure, things are confused, but this, uh, as it happened,

3586
03:46:13,760 --> 03:46:17,879
these guys were left behind, managed to radio a passing

3587
03:46:18,639 --> 03:46:24,479
US naval vessel and apparently, uh, some intelligence officers said

3588
03:46:24,879 --> 03:46:30,719
it's probably like a Kremiere Rouge trick, and there like,

3589
03:46:31,000 --> 03:46:32,719
I mean, it seems ridiculous. It seems like something like

3590
03:46:32,840 --> 03:46:35,440
a cordial old movie, like some Premier Ruge saying like Yo,

3591
03:46:35,600 --> 03:46:40,040
g I Joe, you'll send them all. I mean, that's

3592
03:46:40,239 --> 03:46:42,159
I'm not even light of a horrible situation with that.

3593
03:46:44,360 --> 03:46:48,959
It seems to me by that point probably everybody's looking

3594
03:46:49,000 --> 03:46:50,719
to cover their own ass as it became clear that,

3595
03:46:51,000 --> 03:46:53,479
you know, they're like there head probably been men left behind.

3596
03:46:55,559 --> 03:46:58,520
These three guys are left behind. This became this like

3597
03:46:58,600 --> 03:47:00,879
a enduring kind of myth on most And I remember

3598
03:47:01,639 --> 03:47:04,040
before I knew anything about the mayag As, before I'd like,

3599
03:47:04,280 --> 03:47:06,280
I mean, I was always fancy by Vietnam, and I

3600
03:47:06,319 --> 03:47:08,600
mean ever since I could read, I was reading about,

3601
03:47:09,159 --> 03:47:13,200
you know, about the cold warn things. But I knew

3602
03:47:13,200 --> 03:47:15,719
this guy in the early nineties. Uh, he was kind

3603
03:47:15,760 --> 03:47:19,000
of a sad guy. You know, he's kind of like

3604
03:47:19,079 --> 03:47:21,239
the troubled Vietnam veda myth and lore you know, like

3605
03:47:21,319 --> 03:47:23,479
he had a drug problem and stuff, but he he

3606
03:47:23,600 --> 03:47:25,760
never became pretty tights like we worked together, like we

3607
03:47:25,840 --> 03:47:30,760
delivered pizzas together, you know. And he he'd he I

3608
03:47:30,879 --> 03:47:34,040
talked about Vietnam and he was really into the Pow

3609
03:47:34,239 --> 03:47:37,319
Mia movement, you know, and I kind of just looked

3610
03:47:37,360 --> 03:47:39,479
at him, was like a sad guy who was troubled

3611
03:47:39,520 --> 03:47:41,520
by the war and other things. But he kept coming

3612
03:47:41,639 --> 03:47:43,440
back to Ko Tang and saying, you know, they left

3613
03:47:43,520 --> 03:47:46,879
guys behind, you know in Cambodia. You know that means

3614
03:47:46,920 --> 03:47:49,959
they left other guys behind, and like, uh, like, I'm

3615
03:47:50,000 --> 03:47:51,920
not saying he was right about all these things he claimed,

3616
03:47:51,959 --> 03:47:54,239
but he wasn't just like talking shit, you know, like

3617
03:47:54,319 --> 03:47:58,840
and he that's this. As it turns out, the uh,

3618
03:47:59,239 --> 03:48:01,520
these guys were a bannon on Ko Tang. That that

3619
03:48:01,680 --> 03:48:04,200
fed a lot of the speculation that the that the

3620
03:48:04,360 --> 03:48:09,959
kind of Pow movement you know, derived uh their claims from.

3621
03:48:10,200 --> 03:48:14,000
But it came out years later. These three guys and

3622
03:48:14,120 --> 03:48:16,200
there were his kids, I think, like and they were

3623
03:48:16,239 --> 03:48:18,719
like I think they were like eighteen nineteen and twenty one, respectively.

3624
03:48:19,799 --> 03:48:22,879
They were on the island for a week, and uh,

3625
03:48:23,040 --> 03:48:25,920
the Khmer Rous realized that like some of their rights

3626
03:48:25,959 --> 03:48:29,000
stores had gone missing, and that you know, bootprints uh

3627
03:48:29,879 --> 03:48:34,000
that obviously weren't uh you know, camier rous sandals were

3628
03:48:34,079 --> 03:48:36,000
found and the cammree was tracked these guys and they

3629
03:48:36,079 --> 03:48:41,120
found them. They were uh shuttled to the mainland. Uh

3630
03:48:42,040 --> 03:48:44,040
you know, I mean, god knows what they were subjected

3631
03:48:44,079 --> 03:48:48,479
to do by commie us tortures. But after several days,

3632
03:48:48,639 --> 03:48:56,360
uh they were looking to the jailers. Uh they were

3633
03:48:56,440 --> 03:48:57,959
beaten to death with the butt end of a B

3634
03:48:58,120 --> 03:49:01,319
forty rocket launcher. I mean, I can't even imagine that

3635
03:49:01,440 --> 03:49:06,000
man like being being uh being being abandoned uh by

3636
03:49:06,200 --> 03:49:09,440
uh by your own forces and then falling into the

3637
03:49:09,520 --> 03:49:11,600
hands of the caremure rouge like literally on this like

3638
03:49:12,239 --> 03:49:15,200
god forsaken island. I mean, that's that's beyond that. A

3639
03:49:15,239 --> 03:49:17,280
lot of stuff frightens me, like at my age and

3640
03:49:17,319 --> 03:49:20,760
frankly had some kind of awful experiences, but that that,

3641
03:49:21,799 --> 03:49:25,120
I mean, I find that there's like horrifying even even

3642
03:49:25,159 --> 03:49:26,879
to think about, you know, and their kids.

3643
03:49:27,040 --> 03:49:29,079
Speaker 1: But they should their kids, they should be home in

3644
03:49:29,159 --> 03:49:31,040
the driveway working on a car they just bought.

3645
03:49:31,280 --> 03:49:34,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, man. And it's like, of all people of

3646
03:49:34,680 --> 03:49:36,799
being captured by the Communer Ruge and one most horrifying

3647
03:49:36,840 --> 03:49:38,399
thing I can think of, because like it's not just

3648
03:49:38,840 --> 03:49:40,920
like the Commune Rouge really were animals, Like it's not.

3649
03:49:41,799 --> 03:49:44,799
I mean like it's that's like, yeah, it's not, it's

3650
03:49:44,840 --> 03:49:47,360
not something just like bullshit propaganda or something like it.

3651
03:49:49,120 --> 03:49:50,760
I mean, there's a lot of cases where you know,

3652
03:49:50,879 --> 03:49:54,120
if if you're if you surrender, if you're captured at war,

3653
03:49:54,280 --> 03:49:57,120
I mean you're you're dealing with that ponent, you're dealing

3654
03:49:57,120 --> 03:49:58,600
with an opt for that are just guys like you,

3655
03:49:58,799 --> 03:50:00,879
like in the case of the Communit Rouge, like these

3656
03:50:00,959 --> 03:50:03,200
these guys were fucking barbarians.

3657
03:50:03,280 --> 03:50:08,319
Speaker 1: But the uh yeah, they they seem like the the

3658
03:50:08,479 --> 03:50:12,079
descendants of the the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.

3659
03:50:13,000 --> 03:50:16,440
Speaker 2: Yeah they yeah. And there's just there's like horrible stuff

3660
03:50:16,520 --> 03:50:19,280
like the there actually were like documents and says like

3661
03:50:19,360 --> 03:50:22,399
cannibalism just like terrorized people and stuff, and like they

3662
03:50:23,200 --> 03:50:25,239
you know, they it's it's one of the few wintances

3663
03:50:25,280 --> 03:50:27,360
again we're kind of the truth is the truth is

3664
03:50:27,399 --> 03:50:29,319
worse than a lot of the propaganda that came out,

3665
03:50:29,440 --> 03:50:34,200
but it but it's also too like I think I

3666
03:50:34,280 --> 03:50:36,479
think a lot of this was suppressed, uh for the

3667
03:50:36,520 --> 03:50:39,159
reasons I said. It was like this, it was this bizarre,

3668
03:50:39,360 --> 03:50:45,520
like messy political and diplomatic situation relating to the you know,

3669
03:50:46,000 --> 03:50:50,959
uh the intrigues incident of the son of Soviets split. Uh.

3670
03:50:51,760 --> 03:50:53,959
You know, a lot of the uh, the ongoing hangover

3671
03:50:54,040 --> 03:50:57,520
as it were, from the Vietnam conflict. And you know,

3672
03:50:57,680 --> 03:50:59,559
like I said, just even the way it's treated as bizarre,

3673
03:50:59,639 --> 03:51:01,600
that gets in the fact like this was just uh,

3674
03:51:02,879 --> 03:51:04,959
this was just uh, you know, it's just kind of

3675
03:51:05,040 --> 03:51:07,920
like as an afterthought, like slapped on to the Vietnam

3676
03:51:07,959 --> 03:51:10,879
War Memorial as all. And this was you know that

3677
03:51:11,000 --> 03:51:13,120
this happened sort of in theater and sort of you know,

3678
03:51:13,239 --> 03:51:17,000
within the same decades, So you know, why not just uh,

3679
03:51:17,920 --> 03:51:19,239
you know, why why not just treat it as part

3680
03:51:19,280 --> 03:51:21,239
of like the same uh, part of the same kind

3681
03:51:21,280 --> 03:51:26,120
of like nucleus of uh of of conflict events. But

3682
03:51:26,239 --> 03:51:33,079
it's yeah, I that's the uh, that's the that's that's

3683
03:51:33,120 --> 03:51:35,239
the story of Ko tank Man and that's the uh

3684
03:51:36,200 --> 03:51:39,040
and that's the time. That's the uh. I believe, and

3685
03:51:39,079 --> 03:51:41,399
I've written about this in my fiction, Like I believe

3686
03:51:41,479 --> 03:51:44,799
that uh, I believe the US engage. I believe US

3687
03:51:44,840 --> 03:51:48,040
forces engaged the Commune Rouge like fairly regularly. I don't

3688
03:51:48,040 --> 03:51:49,920
see how they could not have. Like they were you know,

3689
03:51:49,959 --> 03:51:55,200
they were running around Cambodia for years prior to nineteen

3690
03:51:55,280 --> 03:51:58,760
seventy and then in the aftermath, you know, even uh,

3691
03:51:59,719 --> 03:52:03,200
even when even when the US and China like came

3692
03:52:03,280 --> 03:52:06,840
to terms and uh, the US began cultivating the camer

3693
03:52:06,959 --> 03:52:12,360
Rouge against uh, you know, the pro Vietnamese element. There's

3694
03:52:12,399 --> 03:52:15,440
no way that there's no way that American soldiers did

3695
03:52:15,520 --> 03:52:18,520
not engage the Khmer Rouge in a hostile action in theater.

3696
03:52:18,680 --> 03:52:21,319
But this is the only time it happened above board.

3697
03:52:21,360 --> 03:52:23,159
I mean, this was like a real firefight, you know.

3698
03:52:23,280 --> 03:52:28,280
And that's you know, like I said it, uh I.

3699
03:52:29,239 --> 03:52:32,040
I I try and raise the people because I think

3700
03:52:32,159 --> 03:52:34,719
as a historical writer, I think it's important, you know,

3701
03:52:34,879 --> 03:52:37,200
out of the memory of people like these guys who

3702
03:52:37,280 --> 03:52:41,920
were there. But it's also it shows you how it

3703
03:52:42,000 --> 03:52:46,319
shows you how strange the Cold War got really after

3704
03:52:46,479 --> 03:52:50,360
sixty nine to seventies seventy one, when it became really

3705
03:52:50,440 --> 03:52:54,280
like a three way kind of contest with the United States,

3706
03:52:54,399 --> 03:52:57,399
kind of like nominally allied with China in strategic terms,

3707
03:52:58,079 --> 03:53:01,159
you know, in pursuing the kind of interdependence the results

3708
03:53:01,239 --> 03:53:03,079
of which you know, we we kind of see today

3709
03:53:05,200 --> 03:53:09,360
in the global structure. But it's it was far from, uh,

3710
03:53:09,559 --> 03:53:11,559
it was far from some kind of like clean alliance

3711
03:53:12,799 --> 03:53:16,920
and uh, you know, the the way what the Chinese

3712
03:53:17,000 --> 03:53:19,559
view is kind of sound policy in terms of how

3713
03:53:19,600 --> 03:53:22,840
to intrigue against others is incredibly weird. You know, like

3714
03:53:22,959 --> 03:53:28,680
and I'm telling you, like creating this incident for the

3715
03:53:28,719 --> 03:53:31,959
sake of trying to exploit uh, you know, the the

3716
03:53:32,319 --> 03:53:36,239
ensuing chaos for some kind of political and diplomatic cachet

3717
03:53:36,760 --> 03:53:39,559
that might seem crazy like the Western mind, that's exactly

3718
03:53:39,600 --> 03:53:43,360
the way the Chinese think. If you read about the

3719
03:53:43,760 --> 03:53:48,360
the pointless border war that Mau provoked with with Moscow

3720
03:53:50,079 --> 03:53:55,159
mal basically uh risked and nuclear war with the Soviet Union,

3721
03:53:55,559 --> 03:54:00,479
said he could go around uh humiligating version ev you know,

3722
03:54:00,600 --> 03:54:03,399
for a few weeks and acting like, uh, he'd scored

3723
03:54:03,479 --> 03:54:07,840
some kind of victory so that domestically, like you know,

3724
03:54:07,879 --> 03:54:10,799
he could shore up his kind of fledging personality called credibility,

3725
03:54:11,239 --> 03:54:15,200
and like, no, like even a totally unhanged Western uh,

3726
03:54:17,520 --> 03:54:19,959
you know, tyrant like wouldn't think that way or wouldn't

3727
03:54:20,000 --> 03:54:23,239
do that. But that's that's the kind of stuff characteristic

3728
03:54:23,280 --> 03:54:26,600
of the regime and from I mean in the lifetime

3729
03:54:26,639 --> 03:54:29,040
of people like me and yourself. I mean, yeah, the

3730
03:54:29,600 --> 03:54:32,239
the kinds of chaos of of mau when in the

3731
03:54:32,360 --> 03:54:36,440
aftermath is something we didn't experience firsthand. But even uh,

3732
03:54:36,840 --> 03:54:38,840
even even Dang was kind of credited as like this

3733
03:54:39,399 --> 03:54:42,920
great reformer or and this kind of moderating influence. I mean,

3734
03:54:43,159 --> 03:54:47,280
the stuff that he uh would orchestrate in order to

3735
03:54:49,879 --> 03:54:53,760
in order to UH advantage himself or advantage you know,

3736
03:54:53,840 --> 03:54:56,360
pet King in his eyes uh visa VII the West.

3737
03:54:56,399 --> 03:55:01,399
It doesn't it doesn't make any sense. So that was

3738
03:55:01,479 --> 03:55:06,879
kinna last tragic chapter in the history of UH. What

3739
03:55:07,079 --> 03:55:09,920
wasn't oil China? There's a I mean, there was, there

3740
03:55:09,959 --> 03:55:11,680
was the Chinese, there was the there was the Sino

3741
03:55:11,799 --> 03:55:16,040
Vietnamese border War in seventy nine, and there was again too,

3742
03:55:16,120 --> 03:55:20,600
there was the there's the occupation of Cambodia. You know,

3743
03:55:22,079 --> 03:55:26,120
from seventy nine until until the wall came down.

3744
03:55:27,239 --> 03:55:30,479
Speaker 1: China, Chinese and Vietnamese forces fired on each other like

3745
03:55:30,559 --> 03:55:31,280
four years ago.

3746
03:55:31,959 --> 03:55:34,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, and that's why one of the really

3747
03:55:34,040 --> 03:55:37,479
inzing things, you know, Obama was one of the last

3748
03:55:37,520 --> 03:55:40,879
things he did in office was a he he lifted

3749
03:55:40,920 --> 03:55:46,079
any remaining restrictions on a military tech transfers to Vietnam.

3750
03:55:47,479 --> 03:55:51,799
Like the the people in the Pentagon aren't conceptually illiterate,

3751
03:55:51,920 --> 03:55:55,000
and there's very few of them who aren't. Uh they're

3752
03:55:55,040 --> 03:56:00,239
they're like literally fucking morons. But the they they realized

3753
03:56:00,280 --> 03:56:02,959
that Vietnam's like an essential hedge against the People's Republic,

3754
03:56:03,000 --> 03:56:06,600
and it is, and Vietnam has got a real comic capability.

3755
03:56:06,639 --> 03:56:09,440
I mean, there are hard people, they've got a real military,

3756
03:56:09,520 --> 03:56:12,680
and Vietnam's comparatively huge country. It's got like sixty million people,

3757
03:56:13,200 --> 03:56:14,760
you know, like people think it's now that people think

3758
03:56:14,799 --> 03:56:17,559
it's like like Americans, they think all these countries like

3759
03:56:17,600 --> 03:56:20,520
the size of Albania or something like a Vietnam's and

3760
03:56:20,559 --> 03:56:24,559
a as a as a geotragic hedge. Yeah, Vietnam is

3761
03:56:24,600 --> 03:56:29,239
incredibly important and uh an alliance that would make sense.

3762
03:56:30,920 --> 03:56:33,200
And now that leave some of the pressure of America

3763
03:56:33,319 --> 03:56:36,159
having to you know, kind of play between Tokyo and Seoul,

3764
03:56:36,719 --> 03:56:41,840
you know, which is increasingly you know, causing consternation the

3765
03:56:42,399 --> 03:56:45,440
in in in relationship with both countries as well as

3766
03:56:45,479 --> 03:56:49,159
their relationship to China. Like what would be intelligent would

3767
03:56:49,200 --> 03:56:54,360
be to do the cultivate UH countries like Vietnam and

3768
03:56:54,479 --> 03:56:57,879
some kind of like American version of of of what

3769
03:56:57,959 --> 03:56:59,920
the Russians are trying to college with the Shanghai Qui

3770
03:57:00,000 --> 03:57:04,319
Operation Organization. Like like, not only is NATO like destabilizing

3771
03:57:04,360 --> 03:57:06,600
and pointless, but it also says not how you structure

3772
03:57:06,639 --> 03:57:09,879
military alliances in the twenty fourth century, it's like structurally

3773
03:57:09,959 --> 03:57:15,239
obsolescent as well as as well as politically anachronistic. That's

3774
03:57:15,280 --> 03:57:17,840
gonna subject another show, but I hope I didn't. I

3775
03:57:18,000 --> 03:57:19,920
didn't like bore people with just kind of like relaying

3776
03:57:19,959 --> 03:57:24,760
the Battle of Ko Tang, like I said, I yeah, yeah,

3777
03:57:24,920 --> 03:57:26,879
and I next time what I want to get into,

3778
03:57:27,280 --> 03:57:29,399
I want to get in to the President Carter's modernization

3779
03:57:29,559 --> 03:57:34,479
of the command and control aspect of america strategic nuclear

3780
03:57:34,559 --> 03:57:41,639
forces and how you know, the advent of AI as

3781
03:57:41,719 --> 03:57:45,719
well as UH. You know, the the onset of strategic parody.

3782
03:57:46,239 --> 03:57:48,639
We're in the window of decision making, you know, was

3783
03:57:48,680 --> 03:57:50,959
reduced in some cases, you know, to five to eight

3784
03:57:51,079 --> 03:57:54,520
minutes or something, and it had just been accepted for

3785
03:57:54,639 --> 03:57:57,879
a time that the president would die immediately and have

3786
03:57:57,920 --> 03:58:00,040
been a nuclear war. It's a strategic air command and

3787
03:58:00,479 --> 03:58:03,040
would be acting as the Article two executive. I mean

3788
03:58:03,079 --> 03:58:06,920
that's parently and constitutional number one number two. It's just like, ethically,

3789
03:58:07,079 --> 03:58:09,520
that's not right. You don't like the United States Air

3790
03:58:09,639 --> 03:58:13,280
Force and you know, uh, strategic air commands that then existed,

3791
03:58:13,360 --> 03:58:15,920
they don't. They don't get to decide you know, uh,

3792
03:58:16,399 --> 03:58:18,079
like who lives and who dies. They don't. They don't

3793
03:58:18,079 --> 03:58:22,280
get to decide, you know, when and how we wage war.

3794
03:58:22,920 --> 03:58:26,040
But also it raised a fascinating issue. I'm what I

3795
03:58:26,079 --> 03:58:29,799
was telling people too, Like guys like Harlan Ellison, you know,

3796
03:58:29,840 --> 03:58:31,840
when they were you know, Harlan Ellison actually came over

3797
03:58:31,840 --> 03:58:34,120
with the idea for sky in It and like James

3798
03:58:34,200 --> 03:58:36,520
Cameron like ripped him off, like Cameron rips off everything.

3799
03:58:36,600 --> 03:58:40,319
But this wasn't just like some kind of horror movie trope.

3800
03:58:42,200 --> 03:58:47,399
There the removal of human decision makers from strategic nuclear

3801
03:58:47,639 --> 03:58:50,680
war fighting. That was a real thing, and by the

3802
03:58:51,040 --> 03:58:58,479
nineteen eighties it was becoming and uh, when there's when

3803
03:58:59,600 --> 03:59:02,319
with a lot launching even on warning when when when

3804
03:59:02,360 --> 03:59:06,920
the window of decision making temporarily speaking, becomes so narrow

3805
03:59:07,360 --> 03:59:11,639
that even launching on warning is too late, Like what

3806
03:59:11,719 --> 03:59:14,280
do you do? It's like, well, you know, you defend

3807
03:59:14,319 --> 03:59:18,479
yourself by finding ways to code variables that indicate, you know,

3808
03:59:20,280 --> 03:59:23,360
that that indicate imminent assault like before though you know,

3809
03:59:23,440 --> 03:59:27,239
before there's even like conventional like launch indicators and mobilization indicators.

3810
03:59:27,600 --> 03:59:29,520
But then it's like okay, but then like when do

3811
03:59:29,559 --> 03:59:32,719
you attack when there's like a ten percent probability of assault,

3812
03:59:32,719 --> 03:59:35,000
when there's like a fifty anything over fifty percent, then

3813
03:59:35,040 --> 03:59:37,840
when there's ninety percent, when there's anything over one percent,

3814
03:59:38,440 --> 03:59:42,760
you know, and it's some not you know that that's

3815
03:59:42,760 --> 03:59:45,840
a kind of like machine thinking that becomes inevitable, you know,

3816
03:59:45,920 --> 03:59:49,440
when technology it becomes totally just positive as outcomes, but

3817
03:59:49,600 --> 03:59:52,159
also uh, the amount of data that has to be

3818
03:59:52,319 --> 03:59:58,040
managed in a strategic landscape like that, like humans can't

3819
03:59:58,159 --> 04:00:00,879
do it, you know. So we were looking at a

3820
04:00:00,920 --> 04:00:04,600
situation where the Cold War endured, like machines would have

3821
04:00:04,760 --> 04:00:08,200
been the decision maker, you know, and uh, you'd have

3822
04:00:08,319 --> 04:00:13,319
to hope that you know, the the coded uh indicators

3823
04:00:13,879 --> 04:00:16,600
you know, were correct or at least I couldn't be spoofed,

3824
04:00:17,200 --> 04:00:20,799
you know, by by man or by fate. But that yeah,

3825
04:00:20,920 --> 04:00:23,239
that's I I'll save it for the when we get

3826
04:00:23,239 --> 04:00:27,040
into that. But that's that's that's kind of the that's

3827
04:00:27,120 --> 04:00:29,799
kind of the key feature of the Carter presidency, I think,

3828
04:00:29,840 --> 04:00:31,840
and I mean I I'm a lot friendly to Carter

3829
04:00:34,000 --> 04:00:37,079
and uh, you know the way I I view the

3830
04:00:37,360 --> 04:00:40,799
his epoch and most people. So well, we'll get into

3831
04:00:40,879 --> 04:00:44,200
some of these strategic nuclear command and control issues, some

3832
04:00:44,280 --> 04:00:47,079
of these wartech issues, and and and we'll deal with

3833
04:00:47,200 --> 04:00:50,079
like Carter the man himself in the next episode. And

3834
04:00:50,239 --> 04:00:53,120
like again, I really really appreciate people supporting the series,

3835
04:00:53,200 --> 04:00:55,920
and I wanted to give Ko Tang it's due and

3836
04:00:56,040 --> 04:00:57,760
the you know, the men were there. It's due because,

3837
04:00:57,840 --> 04:00:59,959
like I said, it's it's something nobody really talks about.

3838
04:01:00,680 --> 04:01:02,639
And that's part of the reason for these series, so

3839
04:01:02,680 --> 04:01:05,000
that we can deep dive into stuff that people don't

3840
04:01:05,040 --> 04:01:08,600
really talk about in more mainstream sources. So that's all

3841
04:01:08,639 --> 04:01:10,000
I got. And thank you, Pet.

3842
04:01:10,520 --> 04:01:12,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I'm too quick plugs.

3843
04:01:13,399 --> 04:01:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter that probably that

3844
04:01:16,879 --> 04:01:18,799
will probably change in the next few weeks.

3845
04:01:18,559 --> 04:01:18,639
Speaker 3: But.

3846
04:01:20,399 --> 04:01:22,760
Speaker 2: I'm on there. Again. You can find me at Real

3847
04:01:23,159 --> 04:01:28,719
Underscore Thomas seven seven seven. I'm recording from my YouTube

3848
04:01:28,799 --> 04:01:33,200
channel on Friday with my dear friend Carrie, and I'm

3849
04:01:33,200 --> 04:01:36,440
gonna upload that next week sometime, so I'll make sure.

3850
04:01:36,479 --> 04:01:40,520
I'll hype that everybody knows my YouTube channel. There's nothing

3851
04:01:40,559 --> 04:01:45,120
near yet, but there will be is Thomas TV. You

3852
04:01:45,200 --> 04:01:46,959
can find me on substack, which is kind of my

3853
04:01:47,000 --> 04:01:51,600
permanent home. It's a real Thomas seven seven seven dot

3854
04:01:51,639 --> 04:01:55,440
subseac dot com. I'm gonna relaunch a Telegram channel because

3855
04:01:55,799 --> 04:01:58,959
everybody who supports us, they really like Telegram. I mean,

3856
04:01:59,000 --> 04:02:02,600
Telegram really treats me badly, so I wasn't real keen

3857
04:02:02,680 --> 04:02:06,200
to doing business with them again. But i will launch

3858
04:02:06,280 --> 04:02:09,719
a channel for the sake of the subscribers and our friends.

3859
04:02:10,239 --> 04:02:12,559
But I'm going to do that sometime this weekend and

3860
04:02:12,879 --> 04:02:15,719
i'll plug that when we're back on there. But right

3861
04:02:15,799 --> 04:02:17,719
now I just have like a private channel, but I'm

3862
04:02:17,719 --> 04:02:19,399
going to relaunch a public one. That's all I got.

3863
04:02:20,079 --> 04:02:24,639
Speaker 1: Awesome, man, So the next time, thank you, Thomas. Today

3864
04:02:25,760 --> 04:02:28,920
happens to be the fiftieth anniversary of the signing of

3865
04:02:29,040 --> 04:02:33,840
the Paris Piece Accords, which ended the Vietnam War, and

3866
04:02:34,040 --> 04:02:36,719
we couldn't think of anyone better to have on to

3867
04:02:36,920 --> 04:02:41,200
talk about that than somebody that is gracing me with

3868
04:02:41,319 --> 04:02:45,079
his presence on my podcast and going through a Cold

3869
04:02:45,159 --> 04:02:46,319
War series right now.

3870
04:02:46,840 --> 04:02:51,360
Speaker 2: So how do I'm doing? Well? Thank you? Well? I

3871
04:02:51,600 --> 04:02:53,000
I appreciate you inviting me.

3872
04:02:54,520 --> 04:02:56,200
Speaker 1: Here's the first question I want to ask, because I

3873
04:02:56,360 --> 04:02:58,559
was I was writing questions on the last episode we

3874
04:02:59,840 --> 04:03:02,520
did and I realized the episodes were for the end.

3875
04:03:02,760 --> 04:03:08,479
So did public opinion help in ending the war?

3876
04:03:10,040 --> 04:03:12,959
Speaker 2: I mean yeah, because the internal situation in any state,

3877
04:03:13,120 --> 04:03:17,000
any modern state, I mean, whether you're talking about a

3878
04:03:17,120 --> 04:03:19,879
nominal you know, multi party democracy, I mean in the

3879
04:03:20,000 --> 04:03:24,280
terms that that signifiers utilizing the Cold War, or whether

3880
04:03:24,280 --> 04:03:26,719
you're talking about you know, the Communi states of the

3881
04:03:26,760 --> 04:03:30,719
Eastern Bloc, in a in a state in the general

3882
04:03:30,760 --> 04:03:38,319
mobilization especially, but in any in any any policy, ongoing policy, initiative,

3883
04:03:39,600 --> 04:03:44,280
or structure that directly affects the population, like public opinion

3884
04:03:44,799 --> 04:03:48,719
is impactful on that policy, you know. Not despite the

3885
04:03:48,799 --> 04:03:51,920
kind of mythology of democratic peace theory or whatever, there

3886
04:03:52,159 --> 04:03:54,879
are not states that exist that are just totally in

3887
04:03:54,920 --> 04:03:58,280
odds to the body politic, Not any government in existence,

3888
04:03:58,559 --> 04:04:00,600
nor has there been in the modern era that just

3889
04:04:00,680 --> 04:04:03,920
has absolutely no mandate. You know, it's it's completely immune

3890
04:04:03,959 --> 04:04:07,360
to public opinion. That's not nothing to work. But what

3891
04:04:07,479 --> 04:04:09,319
I was saying a moment ago, and I'm going somehow

3892
04:04:09,360 --> 04:04:12,360
with this is not just like a old guy tangent.

3893
04:04:13,399 --> 04:04:16,079
I'm listening to Michael Savage and he's got Colonel McGregor on.

3894
04:04:16,200 --> 04:04:17,799
I know that people don't. I know some people are

3895
04:04:17,840 --> 04:04:20,959
just like doing McGregor either. That's not the point. Savage

3896
04:04:21,000 --> 04:04:24,840
kept on talking about the Russians kind of foibles in

3897
04:04:24,959 --> 04:04:28,120
Ukraine and saying this is like Vietnam when you know

3898
04:04:28,399 --> 04:04:31,559
the Pegon just wouldn't really fight the war, and McGregor

3899
04:04:31,719 --> 04:04:36,040
was credit corrected Savage. McGregor's like, look, man, like Vietnam

3900
04:04:36,120 --> 04:04:38,600
is a fucking scalpunt. We killed the amount of people

3901
04:04:38,639 --> 04:04:41,600
in Vietnam. It was not just like pussy footing around

3902
04:04:41,799 --> 04:04:44,079
like hey, we want to be you know, we gotta

3903
04:04:44,239 --> 04:04:46,760
gotta playtate world opinion. We we don't want to like

3904
04:04:46,840 --> 04:04:49,399
killing Vietnammese. It was I mean, part of my language.

3905
04:04:49,440 --> 04:04:52,920
It was a fucking gook scalp punt. Okay, but you

3906
04:04:52,959 --> 04:04:55,120
don't win wars just by going out and killing as

3907
04:04:55,159 --> 04:04:58,000
many people as possible. You don't win wars by you know,

3908
04:04:58,120 --> 04:05:04,799
manufacturing dead people. If you did, I think throughout ninety

3909
04:05:04,840 --> 04:05:07,200
forty two that Wehrmacht hit something like a fifteen to

3910
04:05:07,280 --> 04:05:10,319
one burn rate in like major engagement with the Red Army. Okay,

3911
04:05:10,360 --> 04:05:13,399
I mean is did does the Greater German Reich it

3912
04:05:13,399 --> 04:05:15,520
exist today? Didn't win the wars? It killed a whole

3913
04:05:15,520 --> 04:05:20,000
lot of people in Russia. No, But the issue with

3914
04:05:20,040 --> 04:05:23,879
public opinion was that it wasn't so much like the

3915
04:05:24,159 --> 04:05:26,479
court history is two things. It's what Michael Samadge said.

3916
04:05:26,520 --> 04:05:29,479
It's that, oh, America wasn't really fighting the Vietnam War,

3917
04:05:30,120 --> 04:05:32,239
you know, or was doing brutal things. But you know

3918
04:05:32,319 --> 04:05:35,000
these things were you know, not the war was there

3919
04:05:35,040 --> 04:05:38,440
wasn't a general mobilization in place, and you know, America

3920
04:05:38,520 --> 04:05:41,239
wasn't really applying force the way it should. That's part

3921
04:05:41,239 --> 04:05:43,719
of the narrative. The other part is, well, the Vietnam

3922
04:05:43,760 --> 04:05:46,120
War was wrong, so all these people rose up and

3923
04:05:46,239 --> 04:05:48,360
just forced you know, evil mister Nixon to stop what

3924
04:05:48,440 --> 04:05:52,920
he was doing. Like nothing like that happened. And you know,

3925
04:05:53,399 --> 04:05:57,600
seventy percent of combat infantrymen and non were guys who enlisted,

3926
04:05:58,399 --> 04:06:02,040
you know, and the remaining thirty percent and probably you know, uh,

3927
04:06:03,239 --> 04:06:04,879
there there was some truth of the fact that there

3928
04:06:05,000 --> 04:06:07,639
was like a poverty draft, you know, when when the

3929
04:06:07,719 --> 04:06:11,360
standards are kind of lessened on on uh you know,

3930
04:06:11,440 --> 04:06:14,760
who who would be you know, considered. I can't remember

3931
04:06:14,799 --> 04:06:17,920
the classification scheme was, but I mean there was some

3932
04:06:18,040 --> 04:06:20,000
truth to that. But this idea that there was either

3933
04:06:20,079 --> 04:06:22,920
this draft revolt or America just became like a country

3934
04:06:22,920 --> 04:06:25,719
of peace micks and and that ended the war. But

3935
04:06:25,879 --> 04:06:28,920
what it did do I mean Johnson was in fact

3936
04:06:29,040 --> 04:06:31,760
lying to the American people and what he was saying

3937
04:06:31,879 --> 04:06:33,440
was not making any sense, and he was getting on

3938
04:06:33,559 --> 04:06:36,680
TV directly concert thing mc namara on top of that,

3939
04:06:38,159 --> 04:06:42,040
unlike uh, you know, the New Dealers War, where Roosevelt

3940
04:06:42,040 --> 04:06:44,360
would literally have you arrested if you were a media

3941
04:06:44,440 --> 04:06:48,799
guy who criticized him his policy or you engage in fetism,

3942
04:06:49,079 --> 04:06:51,360
which constantly was everything from saying maybe the war is

3943
04:06:51,399 --> 04:06:54,200
not a great idea to reporting on you know, America

3944
04:06:54,280 --> 04:06:56,799
actually like losing in the field. I mean that this

3945
04:06:56,959 --> 04:07:00,000
I'm not meaning this up like this is it compared

3946
04:07:00,040 --> 04:07:04,719
during the comparing the the view of UH or the

3947
04:07:04,760 --> 04:07:09,479
orientation of the executive branch. You know, in ninety one

3948
04:07:09,520 --> 04:07:12,520
to forty five and from ninety six about to seventy three,

3949
04:07:12,639 --> 04:07:14,799
it's like night and day. You know, like if you

3950
04:07:14,840 --> 04:07:19,600
think Roosevelt when it's tolerated, you know, Amby Hoffman, UH

3951
04:07:20,440 --> 04:07:23,159
or some or or some counterparty like w Pelly, you know,

3952
04:07:23,239 --> 04:07:27,360
holding one hundred thousand PAN protests waving National Socialist flags

3953
04:07:27,399 --> 04:07:30,319
in Washington, Like you're dead fucking wrong, Like why this

3954
04:07:30,520 --> 04:07:33,440
was allowed? And like why this kind of nonsense? You know,

3955
04:07:33,760 --> 04:07:36,719
why why why cronkite was allowed to be embedded at

3956
04:07:36,799 --> 04:07:43,040
I Corps and UH at long been when UH, you

3957
04:07:43,120 --> 04:07:46,040
know NLF like sappers were assaulting it. I mean that's

3958
04:07:46,040 --> 04:07:49,879
a whole other issue. But people didn't realize something was wrong.

3959
04:07:52,120 --> 04:07:55,440
There was major attrition in Vietnam, like young Americans were

3960
04:07:55,520 --> 04:07:58,799
dying in large numbers, and it was it was clear

3961
04:07:58,879 --> 04:08:02,159
that it was clear that John's was lying. Okay, Nixon,

3962
04:08:02,280 --> 04:08:05,799
who swept the country as we've talked about and Creighton

3963
04:08:05,840 --> 04:08:11,159
Abrams to replace Westmorland. Nixon was in fact winning the war,

3964
04:08:11,520 --> 04:08:16,200
I believe in military terms, I mean the political side

3965
04:08:16,239 --> 04:08:18,319
of it was totally different well in country as well

3966
04:08:18,399 --> 04:08:21,479
as domestically, and as regards the internal situation in the

3967
04:08:21,600 --> 04:08:25,360
United States. Nixon did do some foolish things. However, like

3968
04:08:25,440 --> 04:08:27,719
we talked about in our last episode, you know how

3969
04:08:27,959 --> 04:08:31,879
Kissinger and Nixon they they kind of weighed his personal

3970
04:08:31,959 --> 04:08:35,120
war in Melvin Laired, the Secretary of Defense, and that's

3971
04:08:35,120 --> 04:08:37,120
not what you do if you're the president. And then

3972
04:08:37,159 --> 04:08:40,000
they went it was publicly layered of like leaking the

3973
04:08:40,360 --> 04:08:43,239
secret bombing of Cambodia looked like, first of ball, why

3974
04:08:43,239 --> 04:08:46,520
are you admitting to that? Because that's terrible. Pr Secondly,

3975
04:08:46,680 --> 04:08:48,920
like why you like having this knockdown, drag up flight

3976
04:08:49,079 --> 04:08:52,360
in public with Melvin Laired, Like how does that look? Okay?

3977
04:08:52,520 --> 04:08:56,280
So even people were enthusiastic about, you know, kind of

3978
04:08:56,360 --> 04:09:01,319
the policy shift of Nixon create Abrams and all of that,

3979
04:09:01,600 --> 04:09:04,479
They're like, okay, why why are all these conspiratorial intrigues happening?

3980
04:09:04,559 --> 04:09:09,319
What exactly is going on? You know? And then the

3981
04:09:09,479 --> 04:09:13,079
media really you know, the I'm sorry to feel like

3982
04:09:13,159 --> 04:09:15,719
if I'm if this seems scatter shop, but I'm trying

3983
04:09:15,760 --> 04:09:19,479
to present a linear narrative the best I can. You know,

3984
04:09:19,559 --> 04:09:21,239
the Kent State maybe a lot of people know this.

3985
04:09:21,639 --> 04:09:24,239
I don't think they do though. You know, the Kent

3986
04:09:24,360 --> 04:09:28,280
State shooting of the students the National Guard, that pro

3987
04:09:28,479 --> 04:09:31,760
that was a protest of the assault on Cambodia. Okay,

3988
04:09:32,120 --> 04:09:34,600
you know late in the war in nineteen seventy there

3989
04:09:34,719 --> 04:09:37,920
is my people freaked out about the assault in Cambodia.

3990
04:09:38,040 --> 04:09:41,399
Is because to them it indicated a wider war. In

3991
04:09:41,520 --> 04:09:45,360
a sense, it was, but Nixon was not lying. Vietnamization

3992
04:09:45,559 --> 04:09:49,040
was well underway. There was an active disengagement. The Army

3993
04:09:49,040 --> 04:09:53,440
of the Republic of Vietnam was taking on the brunt

3994
04:09:53,520 --> 04:09:58,920
of combat duties, and Cambodia was key. And we'll get

3995
04:09:58,959 --> 04:10:01,159
into that if you know you're willing to. When we

3996
04:10:01,200 --> 04:10:05,680
got the time, Nixon really kind of neutralized the strategic

3997
04:10:06,319 --> 04:10:11,879
uh game of Warsaw Pact in Vietnam by affecting the

3998
04:10:11,920 --> 04:10:16,959
Sun that Soviets split wherein China and their proxy, the

3999
04:10:17,040 --> 04:10:19,840
Khmer Rouge, came to be totally at odds with the

4000
04:10:19,920 --> 04:10:25,360
Soviet Union and Hanoi, and an active proxy war between

4001
04:10:25,520 --> 04:10:30,200
communist superpowers developed. Uh, you know, between the Vietnamese and

4002
04:10:30,399 --> 04:10:32,520
the Khmer Rouge. I mean, whether the Commuter Rouge were

4003
04:10:32,559 --> 04:10:35,479
evil or not. I mean that that's another issue. But

4004
04:10:36,559 --> 04:10:39,079
point being, there was complexities to widen the war in

4005
04:10:39,120 --> 04:10:42,600
Cambodia that couldn't really be finessed in pr terms. And

4006
04:10:42,680 --> 04:10:45,040
the fact Nixon what have been going on with him

4007
04:10:45,040 --> 04:10:49,840
because during Layered it seemed rotten. These things kind of

4008
04:10:50,120 --> 04:10:55,239
conspired to really turn public opinion against what was underway.

4009
04:10:57,000 --> 04:10:59,079
So yeah, I mean I realized I was a long winded,

4010
04:10:59,079 --> 04:11:02,360
in some of a scattershoff, but yes, there was a

4011
04:11:02,479 --> 04:11:05,479
huge impact. It was one part the anti war movement,

4012
04:11:05,520 --> 04:11:07,319
which was in part I mean it was a fifth

4013
04:11:07,360 --> 04:11:10,000
column regardless, but in part of actually was funded and

4014
04:11:10,200 --> 04:11:15,959
organized by UH agents of Warsaw Pact intelligence services. There

4015
04:11:16,000 --> 04:11:20,719
was a hostile media apparatus, even those that weren't even

4016
04:11:20,760 --> 04:11:24,879
those aspects of national media at warn't hostile Johnson who

4017
04:11:24,959 --> 04:11:27,479
did a lot of incredibly stupid and kind of incomprehensible

4018
04:11:27,520 --> 04:11:30,760
things allowing media to truly be embedded in the field

4019
04:11:31,040 --> 04:11:35,600
with combat elements in a war like Vietnam I with

4020
04:11:35,799 --> 04:11:39,440
free fire zones. I mean that that's literally insane. You know,

4021
04:11:39,520 --> 04:11:41,479
it was inevitable even if something like mel I hadn't

4022
04:11:41,520 --> 04:11:46,040
broken at some point, some newsmen would would have had

4023
04:11:46,479 --> 04:11:49,600
raw footage of gis like wasting like women and kids.

4024
04:11:49,840 --> 04:11:52,079
I'm not saying as American troops are evil or something

4025
04:11:52,159 --> 04:11:54,399
at all. I'm saying like that's what happens in a

4026
04:11:54,440 --> 04:11:59,799
free fire zone, okay, and in in good wars like

4027
04:12:00,040 --> 04:12:03,840
Over one and two that happened also, but in Vietnam. Uh,

4028
04:12:04,680 --> 04:12:07,959
going to the peculiar nuances of the strategic environment, that

4029
04:12:08,079 --> 04:12:12,200
kind of thing happened in alarming earnest, if that makes

4030
04:12:12,200 --> 04:12:15,600
any sense. But point being, Yeah, so some of this

4031
04:12:15,799 --> 04:12:18,159
was some of this was self sabotaged. Some of this

4032
04:12:18,280 --> 04:12:20,319
was kind of like the peculiar some of those people

4033
04:12:20,440 --> 04:12:23,360
not really understanding like I mean, TV was still new

4034
04:12:23,440 --> 04:12:27,040
then basically. I mean part of it was, uh, you know,

4035
04:12:27,600 --> 04:12:29,840
especially Johnson, you know, who was a guy who was

4036
04:12:29,879 --> 04:12:32,600
like born in nearly twentieth century and not really understanding things.

4037
04:12:32,840 --> 04:12:36,280
Party was Johnson wasn't was fucking insane. Uh. Part of

4038
04:12:36,360 --> 04:12:40,680
it was you know, the uh you had a you know,

4039
04:12:40,879 --> 04:12:43,399
you had a you had a domestic situation that had

4040
04:12:43,440 --> 04:12:46,239
been actually subverted, which was literally the opposite of you know,

4041
04:12:47,079 --> 04:12:49,559
the situation the New Dealer was confronted, you know, when

4042
04:12:49,600 --> 04:12:53,120
they mobilized for war. I mean it was uh on

4043
04:12:53,239 --> 04:12:56,040
the top of that too. I mean there was there

4044
04:12:56,079 --> 04:12:59,159
was incredibly dangerous things. But you know, sixty two was

4045
04:12:59,159 --> 04:13:03,719
the Cuba crisis. Seventy three was the next major crisis

4046
04:13:03,760 --> 04:13:05,319
in the Middle East, which I think in some ways

4047
04:13:05,440 --> 04:13:09,799
was more dangerous nable Arch eighty three, Okay, But in

4048
04:13:09,879 --> 04:13:13,079
the interim, you know you had, uh, there was five

4049
04:13:13,159 --> 04:13:18,200
thousand Soviet military uh personnel on the ground in North Vietnam.

4050
04:13:19,120 --> 04:13:22,840
You know, intelligence types. You know, some of these guys

4051
04:13:22,879 --> 04:13:25,840
are training the northe the knees on SAM missiles and things.

4052
04:13:26,680 --> 04:13:29,200
But uh, there's a there's you know, there was the

4053
04:13:29,319 --> 04:13:32,399
constant fear, you know during these operations like Linebacker, are

4054
04:13:32,399 --> 04:13:34,959
we gonna kill a bunch of Russians? And then you

4055
04:13:35,040 --> 04:13:37,239
know what we're gonna is, what the what the fuck's

4056
04:13:37,239 --> 04:13:39,479
that Crimlin gonna do? Then maybe nothing, or maybe they're

4057
04:13:39,479 --> 04:13:41,559
gonna treat as an act of war. This was like

4058
04:13:41,639 --> 04:13:45,120
incredibly dangerous stuff. And uh there's the ongoing you know

4059
04:13:45,239 --> 04:13:49,079
issue in Europe where you know you had you know,

4060
04:13:49,159 --> 04:13:51,600
you had uh you know, you literally had three hundred

4061
04:13:51,639 --> 04:13:56,159
thousand US troops, uh those and those with the Red Army,

4062
04:13:56,719 --> 04:13:58,879
the full the Gap and then the Rederman plane I mean,

4063
04:13:59,079 --> 04:14:01,959
and and say nothing of you know, occupied the Lynn

4064
04:14:02,120 --> 04:14:07,000
like it this. People don't realize, uh, I mean if

4065
04:14:07,079 --> 04:14:09,280
you don't realize how, I mean you remember because you're

4066
04:14:09,280 --> 04:14:10,959
old enough, and I do. I mean I didn't live

4067
04:14:11,000 --> 04:14:14,159
through Vietnam, but you know, I do remember vividly the

4068
04:14:14,200 --> 04:14:18,680
early eighties and being afraid of of uh of nuclear war.

4069
04:14:18,840 --> 04:14:21,840
I mean, people don't realize like how how tense things

4070
04:14:21,920 --> 04:14:25,479
were and in data capacity that was strewing with people's lives.

4071
04:14:25,559 --> 04:14:29,840
And even even people who basically were patriotic according to

4072
04:14:29,920 --> 04:14:33,600
the terms of you know, the era, and even people

4073
04:14:33,600 --> 04:14:36,479
who weren't particularly anti government, there was a certainly like

4074
04:14:36,559 --> 04:14:38,719
weirdness of the Cold War thinking. And it's like okay,

4075
04:14:38,879 --> 04:14:41,280
like you know, even people who didn't have you know,

4076
04:14:41,479 --> 04:14:44,680
teenage kids, at least some kid on their block gotten

4077
04:14:44,719 --> 04:14:47,360
blown away, you nom or some relative of theirs. You know,

4078
04:14:47,399 --> 04:14:50,239
they got this constant fear of like nuclear attack, you

4079
04:14:50,319 --> 04:14:53,399
know it. Uh, the economy was going to shit, like

4080
04:14:53,479 --> 04:14:56,520
despite people like Olivers don't tell you, like Vietnam didn't

4081
04:14:56,559 --> 04:14:59,479
like make everybody rich, Like yeah, there's always war profiteers

4082
04:15:00,079 --> 04:15:03,040
and Zelenski types, like there were five hundred years ago,

4083
04:15:03,040 --> 04:15:04,840
and there were five thousand years ago. There weren't in

4084
04:15:04,959 --> 04:15:07,280
the sixty eight or to day. Yeah, there were guys

4085
04:15:07,360 --> 04:15:10,200
were profiting from the Vietnam War. But the Vietnam War

4086
04:15:10,360 --> 04:15:12,799
was killing the American economy, you know, I mean like

4087
04:15:12,879 --> 04:15:15,799
it was. These were not like good times. Okay, it's uh,

4088
04:15:16,639 --> 04:15:18,559
that's one of the uh in America didn't really right

4089
04:15:18,600 --> 04:15:21,760
itself until Reagan's second term. Honestly. I mean there's other

4090
04:15:21,799 --> 04:15:24,920
contributing factors, you know, like the energy crisis and the

4091
04:15:25,000 --> 04:15:30,719
need to like restructure uh, like certain aspects of America's

4092
04:15:30,840 --> 04:15:35,440
uh of America's consumption energy consumption in order to would

4093
04:15:35,440 --> 04:15:38,559
count from new realities. But it literally took like a

4094
04:15:38,639 --> 04:15:41,319
decade and a half, like America like on fuck itself

4095
04:15:41,360 --> 04:15:44,200
from Vietnam, like in terms of you know, the national

4096
04:15:44,280 --> 04:15:47,959
economic profile. But seven it was all of those things.

4097
04:15:49,600 --> 04:15:52,079
The big uh, the big issue with the Paris Peace

4098
04:15:52,120 --> 04:15:58,120
agreements is people, Yeah go ahead.

4099
04:15:58,280 --> 04:16:04,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're you're talking about the economy. And they were

4100
04:16:04,520 --> 04:16:10,600
almost literally doing two wars because not only are they

4101
04:16:10,639 --> 04:16:12,680
paying for Vietnam, but now they have this war on

4102
04:16:12,879 --> 04:16:16,959
poverty that they're having to print money over and so

4103
04:16:17,159 --> 04:16:21,200
you of course you're going things are going to go

4104
04:16:21,280 --> 04:16:25,479
to two ship because when you're also millions of social

4105
04:16:25,559 --> 04:16:27,520
program come in, you're.

4106
04:16:27,399 --> 04:16:30,120
Speaker 2: Also throwing millions upon millions on millions of dollars to

4107
04:16:30,200 --> 04:16:32,719
develop you know, ICBM systems that you know can be

4108
04:16:32,799 --> 04:16:36,159
super hardened to withstand like first strike. You know, like

4109
04:16:37,600 --> 04:16:40,280
you know, keep keeping be fifty two's constantly in the air,

4110
04:16:40,840 --> 04:16:43,920
like with nuclear payloads, keeping three hundred thousand men in

4111
04:16:44,040 --> 04:16:47,840
West Germany, you know, keeping uh, you know, developing and

4112
04:16:47,920 --> 04:16:53,159
maintaining like a fleet of Minutemen missiles as uh, you know,

4113
04:16:53,239 --> 04:16:56,680
as the primary deterrent you know, keeping uh keeping nuclear

4114
04:16:56,760 --> 04:17:00,440
cable submarines in the war. Like this is unbelievable defensive.

4115
04:17:00,920 --> 04:17:02,639
You know, like one of the reasons why like Reagan

4116
04:17:02,879 --> 04:17:07,479
went all in to win the Cold War wasn't just

4117
04:17:07,559 --> 04:17:10,520
because you know, he you know, he had like balls

4118
04:17:10,639 --> 04:17:13,479
or something, or because he you know, he you know,

4119
04:17:13,559 --> 04:17:15,639
he wasn't like a pushy like Carder or whatever, like

4120
04:17:15,760 --> 04:17:19,479
dumb things people think today, And uh, look like America,

4121
04:17:19,879 --> 04:17:23,120
America could waive the colder longer than Ivan, but America's

4122
04:17:23,200 --> 04:17:25,799
running out of money to fucking do it too. You know,

4123
04:17:26,120 --> 04:17:29,120
you can't you cannot sustain that, and definitely you're either

4124
04:17:29,159 --> 04:17:31,319
gonna go to war or you're gonna face some kind

4125
04:17:31,319 --> 04:17:33,879
of structural crisis like the Soviets did, and then the

4126
04:17:33,920 --> 04:17:37,520
odds of war happening becomes exponentially more likely. I mean,

4127
04:17:37,559 --> 04:17:41,200
you know that this idea somehow like America could have

4128
04:17:41,239 --> 04:17:44,000
like it definitely you know, maintains like a six hundred

4129
04:17:44,040 --> 04:17:48,239
ship navy. Uh, you know, could have could have continuously

4130
04:17:48,360 --> 04:17:52,159
like fielded like you know Nora Dora weapons. Uh, you know,

4131
04:17:52,280 --> 04:17:56,680
like the B two platform and uh, and you know,

4132
04:17:56,760 --> 04:17:59,719
and and and and pursue you know, SDI which would

4133
04:17:59,760 --> 04:18:02,079
have become necessary. I know, people just like like to

4134
04:18:02,159 --> 04:18:03,879
talk about it. It's like I'm gonna pipe dream, you know,

4135
04:18:03,920 --> 04:18:07,000
people like you know, mister Ted Kennedy and the Epoch.

4136
04:18:07,120 --> 04:18:10,479
But it wasn't like Jerry Parnell said, like orbital space

4137
04:18:11,200 --> 04:18:13,319
had the Cold War indor in the ninety nineties, like

4138
04:18:14,399 --> 04:18:18,959
orbital space is going to become what naval warfare platforms

4139
04:18:19,000 --> 04:18:21,959
were the strategic nuclear planning in the eighties. I mean,

4140
04:18:22,239 --> 04:18:25,200
at some point the money would have run out, you know.

4141
04:18:25,280 --> 04:18:26,799
You like again, it's they can't.

4142
04:18:27,360 --> 04:18:35,079
Speaker 1: That's also that's also why President Nixon ended Breton Woods.

4143
04:18:35,799 --> 04:18:37,479
I mean it makes it easier if you get off

4144
04:18:37,520 --> 04:18:40,600
the gold standard, then you can uh, you know, accelerate

4145
04:18:40,639 --> 04:18:41,520
the money supply to.

4146
04:18:42,319 --> 04:18:44,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, very much so. But it's also too he was

4147
04:18:44,600 --> 04:18:50,959
genuinely worried. He was genuinely worried about about UH about

4148
04:18:50,959 --> 04:18:53,040
about like a run on the gold resers I, which

4149
04:18:53,120 --> 04:18:56,399
was like a real that was that was a real prospect,

4150
04:18:57,719 --> 04:19:00,239
especially because it's like outside the scope and against with

4151
04:19:00,280 --> 04:19:02,399
this in another episode. And I'm not an economist, but

4152
04:19:02,440 --> 04:19:04,799
I do know I am something of an economic historian,

4153
04:19:04,840 --> 04:19:09,360
and that I I like a basic conceptual picture of UH,

4154
04:19:10,159 --> 04:19:14,079
of the about the structure of UH American economic policy changed,

4155
04:19:14,079 --> 04:19:17,520
and just like how globalism kind of gradually became a reality,

4156
04:19:17,920 --> 04:19:20,799
you know, and how the kind of information age you know,

4157
04:19:21,000 --> 04:19:24,920
changed the way financial markets function wheever meets the road.

4158
04:19:25,440 --> 04:19:28,079
And aside of all these things, you and I just

4159
04:19:28,280 --> 04:19:31,879
raised the nineteen seventies. That was the dawn. That was

4160
04:19:31,879 --> 04:19:34,200
what you're done of the information age. Okay, I mean

4161
04:19:34,399 --> 04:19:36,440
you could say that like the kind of machines that

4162
04:19:36,760 --> 04:19:39,760
like Turing machines were, I don't mean like that, I

4163
04:19:39,840 --> 04:19:41,559
mean like the digital age. I guess I should say

4164
04:19:42,319 --> 04:19:44,840
that the dawna that was the ninety seventies and things

4165
04:19:44,920 --> 04:19:48,280
from from the nineteen seventies to now, things changed just rapidly,

4166
04:19:48,840 --> 04:19:51,200
you know, and that that was altering the way business

4167
04:19:51,319 --> 04:19:53,639
is done in the way like money is conceptualized, in

4168
04:19:53,760 --> 04:19:57,760
my opinion, for better and for worse. I mean, it was,

4169
04:19:57,879 --> 04:20:00,280
it was not. It was not all negative, although there

4170
04:20:00,280 --> 04:20:04,360
aren't any negatives, but you know, the these kinds of punctuated,

4171
04:20:06,319 --> 04:20:12,399
these kinds of punctuated changes are they they're their stresses,

4172
04:20:12,440 --> 04:20:18,680
you know, like I they they they uh, they cause

4173
04:20:19,120 --> 04:20:22,319
they make they make crises more probable of all sorts.

4174
04:20:22,399 --> 04:20:28,000
So yeah, it uh, you know, but the the main

4175
04:20:28,200 --> 04:20:31,760
uh what I kind of wanted to emphasize on, you know,

4176
04:20:31,920 --> 04:20:33,879
I mean, like all things related to Vietnam even today,

4177
04:20:33,920 --> 04:20:35,799
even though kind of the like the tamboo is no

4178
04:20:35,959 --> 04:20:39,120
longer around the Vietnam War obviously as it was for

4179
04:20:39,920 --> 04:20:41,399
you know when I was a kid and like when

4180
04:20:41,399 --> 04:20:45,079
you were a teenager. I'm sure, but people there's still

4181
04:20:45,120 --> 04:20:47,760
like ill understood's there's this idea of the Paaris peace talks.

4182
04:20:48,479 --> 04:20:50,520
Like guys are kind of the mainstream, right, even some

4183
04:20:50,639 --> 04:20:53,920
guys like on the dissident right, they do it. It's like, oh, well,

4184
04:20:54,520 --> 04:20:57,719
Congress screwed Nixon over and just you know, cut off

4185
04:20:57,760 --> 04:21:02,239
the money supply and you know, the tangible military aid

4186
04:21:02,520 --> 04:21:05,200
to the Republic of Vietnam. You know, so the South

4187
04:21:05,239 --> 04:21:08,360
can't defend itself, and you know, Hanoi was just rubbing

4188
04:21:08,440 --> 04:21:10,719
its hands together and never meant to like abide the

4189
04:21:10,840 --> 04:21:15,479
rules of the or the material express conditions of the

4190
04:21:15,520 --> 04:21:18,239
peace agreement. It's not really true, you know. And then

4191
04:21:18,239 --> 04:21:21,239
there's like other people who uh uh, you know, people

4192
04:21:21,280 --> 04:21:24,040
on the left and kind of like Majama Storians. They

4193
04:21:24,159 --> 04:21:26,040
just claim that like, well Nixon was just making you know,

4194
04:21:26,159 --> 04:21:28,440
make a fool the American people and like pretending to

4195
04:21:28,639 --> 04:21:32,200
accomplish peace, and that that's not true either. This was

4196
04:21:32,280 --> 04:21:35,879
kind of a if you the view from Nixon and

4197
04:21:36,200 --> 04:21:41,280
Kissinger and uh and across the aisle, you know, jop

4198
04:21:41,520 --> 04:21:46,120
and and and the Hanoi leadership, like the Central Committee,

4199
04:21:46,399 --> 04:21:48,959
the communist part of Vietnam, there's like a lack of

4200
04:21:49,000 --> 04:21:53,520
shared premises written large and if you read the statements, uh,

4201
04:21:54,159 --> 04:21:57,959
what Hanoi was saying to Cosvin Cosvin cos VN that's

4202
04:21:57,959 --> 04:22:02,760
an acronym. It' says for Central offices South Vietnam. There

4203
04:22:02,840 --> 04:22:06,639
was the anglicized acronym for the what amountse the Central

4204
04:22:06,680 --> 04:22:10,120
Committee of the Viet Cong OKAY based in South Vietnam,

4205
04:22:11,280 --> 04:22:17,959
and what they communicated to them was that in their view,

4206
04:22:19,479 --> 04:22:22,079
what the ceasefire meant, or what the peace agreement meant,

4207
04:22:22,200 --> 04:22:27,879
was that America would disengage that communists in South Vietnam,

4208
04:22:28,159 --> 04:22:33,159
like former party members, Viet Cong suspects, you know, sympathizers

4209
04:22:33,159 --> 04:22:36,280
all in Sundry, would no longer be treated as enemy combatants.

4210
04:22:37,879 --> 04:22:41,559
A roadmap would be implemented as it were for what

4211
04:22:42,040 --> 04:22:45,319
was supposed to be implemented in nineteen fifty four, you know,

4212
04:22:45,399 --> 04:22:49,280
which was eventually you know, like countrywide elections, which never

4213
04:22:49,360 --> 04:22:52,520
actually happened, in part because of the constantly you know,

4214
04:22:52,600 --> 04:22:56,120
the Kazi changing regime in Saigon never allowed to happen.

4215
04:22:56,239 --> 04:22:58,319
Like that is true, and they wouldn't allow to happen

4216
04:22:58,360 --> 04:23:00,559
because it would have Vietnam would have gone. So I

4217
04:23:00,719 --> 04:23:06,639
understand that completely. But Uh, the two regime in Saigon

4218
04:23:07,799 --> 04:23:13,760
immediately after, uh, like the ink was dry. Uh. Basically

4219
04:23:13,920 --> 04:23:17,559
like a major push happened in key areas, especially border

4220
04:23:17,639 --> 04:23:21,319
territories like with with Cambodia, as well as the Quang

4221
04:23:21,399 --> 04:23:27,239
Tray province. You know, key uh key key operational areas

4222
04:23:27,319 --> 04:23:33,159
of communist uh control that were like strategically essential for

4223
04:23:33,280 --> 04:23:35,120
them to be able to bargain from a position of

4224
04:23:35,159 --> 04:23:40,959
strength and an advent of hostilities access logistically uh what

4225
04:23:41,079 --> 04:23:46,280
they needed to in Cambodia. And when it became clear

4226
04:23:46,440 --> 04:23:49,440
that the South was gonna was going to continue to

4227
04:23:50,280 --> 04:23:52,120
you know, trying to annihilate when remained of the Viet

4228
04:23:52,239 --> 04:23:58,479
Kong Uh, the Doris responded with conventional means, and their

4229
04:23:58,680 --> 04:24:03,680
reasoning was always South Vietnam is not a sovereign country either,

4230
04:24:03,719 --> 04:24:07,840
are not to Vietnams. Then North never accepted that. So

4231
04:24:07,959 --> 04:24:11,680
their notion was well, kind of like the provisional Ira

4232
04:24:12,200 --> 04:24:14,719
and you can say this is in bad faith. Their

4233
04:24:14,799 --> 04:24:19,319
view was always, you know, we're, uh, we're gonna lay

4234
04:24:19,319 --> 04:24:21,840
down our arms. But you've basically got to like allow like,

4235
04:24:22,000 --> 04:24:25,520
you know, full representation the communist party, and you know

4236
04:24:25,639 --> 04:24:28,200
you've got to you've got to give our people, you know,

4237
04:24:28,920 --> 04:24:34,200
the quality of status at the polls, and uh you

4238
04:24:34,280 --> 04:24:39,440
know added to that too. Obviously there's epistemological problem with

4239
04:24:39,559 --> 04:24:43,360
communism because they claim that they're practicing a kind of science.

4240
04:24:43,920 --> 04:24:46,200
And if you refuse to abide what they claim is

4241
04:24:46,239 --> 04:24:48,840
the inevitable science of history, you know, which is like

4242
04:24:48,920 --> 04:24:52,840
advancing socialism. You know, you're basically engaged in some kind

4243
04:24:52,879 --> 04:24:56,719
of oppression of humanity in general. Like quite literally, this

4244
04:24:56,879 --> 04:24:58,799
is like what they'd say, you know, whether you're talking

4245
04:24:58,799 --> 04:25:01,000
about East Berlin while you're talking on Moscow, where you're

4246
04:25:01,000 --> 04:25:05,639
talking about Prague, where you're talking about Vietnam. So there's

4247
04:25:05,639 --> 04:25:09,120
like added just kind of like just added like inability

4248
04:25:09,159 --> 04:25:12,600
to come to terms that like framed like uh, Hanoi's

4249
04:25:14,000 --> 04:25:21,680
conceptual horizon. However, Nixon basically puts Saigon in as good

4250
04:25:21,719 --> 04:25:24,239
as stead as it could have been in terms of

4251
04:25:24,319 --> 04:25:28,879
political legitimacy and in terms of bolstering their case in

4252
04:25:29,040 --> 04:25:32,159
the court of world opinion, which actually mattered then in

4253
04:25:32,200 --> 04:25:36,719
a way it didn't it doesn't now. And uh, the

4254
04:25:36,840 --> 04:25:41,319
nineteen seventy two offensive, colloquially called the Easter of by

4255
04:25:41,479 --> 04:25:47,000
like you know, military geeks and uh, like historians on Sundry,

4256
04:25:47,399 --> 04:25:49,920
that was stopped in its tracks. I mean, American air

4257
04:25:50,000 --> 04:25:54,559
power were devastated North Vietnamese armed columns, but the other

4258
04:25:54,600 --> 04:25:58,479
public of Vietnam actually stood and fought, and like, I

4259
04:25:58,799 --> 04:26:01,719
think I made the point some we back that they

4260
04:26:01,799 --> 04:26:04,319
get a bad rap, you know, because they're always kind

4261
04:26:04,360 --> 04:26:07,399
of panned as like this cowardly forest like crooks and

4262
04:26:07,719 --> 04:26:09,280
like anyway, full mill jag at the only time you

4263
04:26:09,280 --> 04:26:12,200
see the Arvin on screen, it's some Arvin captain and

4264
04:26:12,280 --> 04:26:15,120
he's wearing like some faggety like fucking silk scarf and

4265
04:26:15,159 --> 04:26:17,799
he's literally pimping some girl to the Marines, like hey,

4266
04:26:17,920 --> 04:26:19,559
you want you want to boom boom and like and that,

4267
04:26:20,159 --> 04:26:22,120
Like you literally never see a portrayal of them as

4268
04:26:22,200 --> 04:26:25,600
like anything but like the scum to eggs or like pussies,

4269
04:26:25,639 --> 04:26:28,959
and like that's not fair. I mean, I'm not a

4270
04:26:29,079 --> 04:26:31,399
Vietnam veterans, so like, I'm sure those guys had their

4271
04:26:31,399 --> 04:26:34,280
own extra grind with them people, But I'm talking the

4272
04:26:34,319 --> 04:26:36,360
historical record, just like as a dude who like writes

4273
04:26:36,360 --> 04:26:40,479
about his ortal topics. There's nothing else like the seventy

4274
04:26:40,520 --> 04:26:43,040
two offensive and the fact that it was stopping its

4275
04:26:43,120 --> 04:26:45,799
tracks like a quits the army the Republic of Vietnam. Okay,

4276
04:26:45,920 --> 04:26:50,319
that's not all airpower. Okay, so yeah there's that, but

4277
04:26:50,399 --> 04:26:54,239
that's that's kind of the way to understand the Paris

4278
04:26:54,280 --> 04:26:57,520
Piece agreement. It wasn't just kissing, dripping duplicatus or Nixon,

4279
04:26:58,239 --> 04:27:00,280
you know, being a snake or I mean, what would

4280
04:27:00,319 --> 04:27:03,399
Nixon game from that anyway? Like because all if any

4281
04:27:03,440 --> 04:27:06,120
and who knows that about Nixon knows like Nixon's a

4282
04:27:06,159 --> 04:27:08,840
guy who like he's a rare American who lived historically

4283
04:27:08,959 --> 04:27:11,840
in absolute terms, like all Nicks never thought about was

4284
04:27:11,920 --> 04:27:15,079
his like contribution to history. Like Nixon never ever ever

4285
04:27:15,239 --> 04:27:19,760
would just like it, just like you know, pull him

4286
04:27:19,760 --> 04:27:21,760
on her ruse and said, like the hell with Tangan,

4287
04:27:21,840 --> 04:27:24,520
I don't care, you know this, I'm just gonna you know,

4288
04:27:24,600 --> 04:27:26,120
this is how I'm gonna like try and shore up

4289
04:27:26,399 --> 04:27:28,440
by Craig, like and I missed the Watergate like that

4290
04:27:28,639 --> 04:27:34,879
this nonsense, but it but it's also you know, the

4291
04:27:34,959 --> 04:27:38,680
Sino Soviet split Nixon. If you read what Nixon wrote

4292
04:27:39,920 --> 04:27:44,200
after the war and post Watergate, Nixon disappeared for about

4293
04:27:44,239 --> 04:27:47,200
five years, but then he made it come back as

4294
04:27:47,239 --> 04:27:50,479
a best selling author. And as the Cold War heated

4295
04:27:50,559 --> 04:27:54,360
up again, you know, people became very thirsty for serious

4296
04:27:54,399 --> 04:27:59,920
analysis on on geo's strategic things. And Nixon really had

4297
04:28:00,000 --> 04:28:04,600
the Soviet Union's number in a way remarkable, and he

4298
04:28:04,719 --> 04:28:08,040
wrote a lot about why he went to China, and

4299
04:28:08,159 --> 04:28:11,000
he said, like, look, you know, I basically realized in

4300
04:28:11,120 --> 04:28:14,079
nineteen fifty three, you know, as the steelmate in Korea

4301
04:28:14,159 --> 04:28:17,440
set in, like we had to decople pig King from

4302
04:28:17,479 --> 04:28:20,479
Moscow at all costs. I mean, yeah, we have to

4303
04:28:20,520 --> 04:28:24,360
make compromises there. Like yeah, you know a lot of

4304
04:28:24,399 --> 04:28:26,879
people would suffer in places like Cambodia because of that.

4305
04:28:28,719 --> 04:28:30,680
You know, you can say it's callous, but Nixon was

4306
04:28:30,920 --> 04:28:35,600
totally open about that. But had that not happened, the

4307
04:28:35,639 --> 04:28:38,600
Communists would have won the Cold War absolutely. You know,

4308
04:28:40,479 --> 04:28:42,639
you'd have a communist world in America, this kind of

4309
04:28:42,680 --> 04:28:50,040
garrison of state that existed, you know, and had an

4310
04:28:50,079 --> 04:28:52,920
ability to protect power kind of like in nineteenth century terms,

4311
04:28:53,040 --> 04:28:55,520
like you know, throughout like the western hemisphere, probably as

4312
04:28:55,520 --> 04:28:58,879
far as Greenland or something. But it would, you know,

4313
04:28:59,000 --> 04:29:01,000
it would it would be this kind of like island

4314
04:29:01,040 --> 04:29:03,920
to miss, like a hostel like red World. Okay, and

4315
04:29:04,040 --> 04:29:07,879
that was a very real possibility had things that developed

4316
04:29:07,920 --> 04:29:12,319
what they did. But in the more immediate capacity, uh,

4317
04:29:12,760 --> 04:29:14,680
Nixon realized he had the court now when he did,

4318
04:29:14,799 --> 04:29:20,840
because that neutralized that, they neutralized that the strategic advantage

4319
04:29:20,879 --> 04:29:26,200
of of Soviet victory by proxy and Vietnam because uh,

4320
04:29:27,040 --> 04:29:29,680
he literally had a communist super state on the border

4321
04:29:29,799 --> 04:29:33,000
of like you know, their client in Vietnam, and uh,

4322
04:29:33,520 --> 04:29:35,879
the Khmer Rouge would stand with China no matter what.

4323
04:29:37,000 --> 04:29:40,120
You know, it didn't matter that, you know, they they'd uh,

4324
04:29:41,040 --> 04:29:44,719
it didn't matter that they'd clicked up with the Soviets

4325
04:29:44,719 --> 04:29:47,360
and the Chinese and the National Liberation Front and Hanoi

4326
04:29:48,239 --> 04:29:52,879
to fight the Americans when uh, when things the Commie

4327
04:29:53,040 --> 04:29:55,200
never liked the Vietnamese anyway, and when things went bad

4328
04:29:55,440 --> 04:30:00,559
between Hanoi and or between them Moscow and pet King, Uh,

4329
04:30:00,799 --> 04:30:03,079
the Kremer Rugs would always be all in with with

4330
04:30:03,280 --> 04:30:08,120
China and it's will okay, So you had Nixon managed

4331
04:30:08,239 --> 04:30:11,799
uh you know what what what what did the Soviets

4332
04:30:11,799 --> 04:30:14,319
are like gained in Vietnam. It's like okay, Yeah, like

4333
04:30:14,399 --> 04:30:18,559
we talked about Vietnam was uh that was where that

4334
04:30:18,719 --> 04:30:20,319
was that that was that was where the line in

4335
04:30:20,360 --> 04:30:23,600
the sand was drawn. You know, when when the Free

4336
04:30:23,680 --> 04:30:26,360
World as it was called, you know, like fought you know,

4337
04:30:27,440 --> 04:30:32,120
the Communists in open combat, it didn't matter. It could

4338
04:30:32,120 --> 04:30:33,840
have been anywhere, but that's just where it was. There

4339
04:30:33,879 --> 04:30:36,639
was a political fight, it wasn't a struggle for resources

4340
04:30:36,680 --> 04:30:40,639
and territory. And yeah, they Congress won that. But it's

4341
04:30:40,680 --> 04:30:44,639
like okay, so uh, now, you know the Soviets that

4342
04:30:44,760 --> 04:30:47,319
basically like this kind of they've got they've got this,

4343
04:30:48,120 --> 04:30:52,040
they've they've got this appendage beliaguered by you know, hostile

4344
04:30:52,200 --> 04:30:56,719
kremie ruge Cambodia and like hostile you know, communists China

4345
04:30:56,799 --> 04:31:00,680
do it's north And that is really interesting too because

4346
04:31:00,760 --> 04:31:05,479
obviously this at that time the trifect uh that truly

4347
04:31:05,600 --> 04:31:08,879
ruled the Soviet Union in my opinion was Usenov and

4348
04:31:09,000 --> 04:31:15,000
drop off in grom Eco. And you know, uh, the

4349
04:31:15,079 --> 04:31:18,959
Soviets hedge against China was India. You know, that's something

4350
04:31:19,000 --> 04:31:23,000
like the true military interdepensula between Moscow and in India.

4351
04:31:23,719 --> 04:31:26,440
And uh, that's when Kissinger went all in with uh

4352
04:31:26,760 --> 04:31:29,920
with Pakistan, you know, in the India, the Indo Pakistan

4353
04:31:30,120 --> 04:31:33,159
or it was very much a Cold War proxy resultant

4354
04:31:33,200 --> 04:31:36,600
directly from the writing on the wall. The Soviets detected

4355
04:31:36,639 --> 04:31:40,479
from what's happening with Nixon and China. And then when

4356
04:31:40,520 --> 04:31:44,600
that I mean that result incredibly brutally, and then the

4357
04:31:44,680 --> 04:31:48,280
Soviets pushed uh in Angola like immediately after. That's that's

4358
04:31:48,280 --> 04:31:51,520
why the Povias shifted to Africa. That Africa we can win,

4359
04:31:52,000 --> 04:31:53,879
you know, like what's the West have you know, They've

4360
04:31:53,879 --> 04:31:56,280
got Rogez Rogez is going down, you know, they got

4361
04:31:56,319 --> 04:31:59,959
South Africa South as a paraya, you know, and plut

4362
04:32:00,200 --> 04:32:02,040
like they wanted to fight the South Africans, you know,

4363
04:32:02,120 --> 04:32:04,280
and then fifty thousand Cubans showed up to fight the

4364
04:32:04,399 --> 04:32:06,159
s A d F, you know, and it was, hey,

4365
04:32:06,200 --> 04:32:07,879
we're you know, look at look at look at this,

4366
04:32:07,959 --> 04:32:10,200
look at this racist depressor state, you know, like we're

4367
04:32:10,920 --> 04:32:13,319
we're uh, you know, the the Warsaw Pack, you know,

4368
04:32:13,440 --> 04:32:15,719
believes in in liberating people, you know, in in the

4369
04:32:15,760 --> 04:32:19,239
global South or the colored world, take your pick. But that,

4370
04:32:20,559 --> 04:32:22,280
I mean, all these these things are just these things

4371
04:32:22,319 --> 04:32:25,120
are as incidental. It was approximately caused by Vietnam. I mean,

4372
04:32:25,120 --> 04:32:29,079
it's proximately caused by the fact that Nixon and Kissinger

4373
04:32:30,120 --> 04:32:34,520
were able to decouple Paking from Moscow, like in absolute terms,

4374
04:32:35,000 --> 04:32:37,520
you know, I mean, I you know, and it that

4375
04:32:38,159 --> 04:32:39,959
the point that that riff could never be repaired I

4376
04:32:40,040 --> 04:32:44,639
mean that that's remarkable. There would have been I mean

4377
04:32:44,719 --> 04:32:47,159
oing to the vagaries of Mao, and I think just

4378
04:32:47,680 --> 04:32:52,760
things in trip to the Chinese national and cultural character,

4379
04:32:53,399 --> 04:32:56,559
as well as just kind of racial differences and in

4380
04:32:57,360 --> 04:33:01,760
geostrategic issues. I think, I think the sin of Soviet

4381
04:33:01,799 --> 04:33:05,159
allions have been problematic going forward, but it definitely would

4382
04:33:05,200 --> 04:33:08,560
have held together until at least, you know, America splash.

4383
04:33:08,680 --> 04:33:14,639
NATO was like vanquished within for you know, the Oriasian

4384
04:33:14,759 --> 04:33:19,040
land mass and the Soviets and the shotgown is going

4385
04:33:19,080 --> 04:33:22,040
to handle. Ran says later, it always entirely to Nixon

4386
04:33:22,040 --> 04:33:28,279
and Kissinger that the Santa Soviets split was that freshness

4387
04:33:28,360 --> 04:33:33,119
and that permanent. I firmly believe that if that was

4388
04:33:33,200 --> 04:33:38,119
like to kind of like why widely off topic and

4389
04:33:38,200 --> 04:33:41,279
he wanted to focus more specifically and concretely in the

4390
04:33:41,400 --> 04:33:44,799
piece of Sorry, but I thought it was important to.

4391
04:33:48,799 --> 04:33:51,759
Speaker 1: Well, here's one thing I wanted to bring up about

4392
04:33:51,799 --> 04:33:55,680
the accords. Yeah, most I would say a lot of

4393
04:33:55,759 --> 04:34:01,680
mainstream historians would say that southeas Vietnam was basically pressured

4394
04:34:01,759 --> 04:34:06,119
into accepting an agreement that basically ensured that it was

4395
04:34:06,360 --> 04:34:07,360
going to collapse.

4396
04:34:09,159 --> 04:34:12,639
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a political problem here. Like

4397
04:34:12,759 --> 04:34:17,840
we're used to I mean, we're we're not been so

4398
04:34:17,840 --> 04:34:20,720
wrong would characterize it. We're accustomed to the Department of

4399
04:34:20,799 --> 04:34:25,639
State just kind of issuing these ridiculous statements that nobody

4400
04:34:25,799 --> 04:34:29,560
could possibly derive anything from. But like gross offense. I

4401
04:34:29,639 --> 04:34:32,799
mean in terms of like you know, the foreign regimes

4402
04:34:32,799 --> 04:34:36,599
that directed that, Like in the case of Vietnam, there

4403
04:34:36,680 --> 04:34:38,799
was a very it was a very delicate minuet. I mean,

4404
04:34:38,840 --> 04:34:42,840
first of all, I mean, like I said at the

4405
04:34:42,919 --> 04:34:47,279
Assets discussion, you know, we killed a huge amount of

4406
04:34:47,319 --> 04:34:49,799
people in North Vietnam, I mean in the south, but

4407
04:34:49,880 --> 04:34:54,479
particularly I mean we these were not people who had

4408
04:34:54,520 --> 04:34:58,080
warm feelings towards America, you know. I mean, this was

4409
04:34:58,119 --> 04:35:03,759
a brutal war with race overtone was frankly okay. Secondly,

4410
04:35:03,959 --> 04:35:07,599
like I said, this wasn't clear cut. I mean, arguably,

4411
04:35:07,639 --> 04:35:11,000
it's always ambiguous if you're talking about national frontiers, and

4412
04:35:11,080 --> 04:35:13,680
you know, like I know, people talk like, you know,

4413
04:35:13,840 --> 04:35:16,759
the borders of Ukraine are like absolutely sacred, you know,

4414
04:35:16,840 --> 04:35:19,439
and like more holy than you know, like some some

4415
04:35:19,880 --> 04:35:22,520
prom queen's virginity or something or that, Like you know,

4416
04:35:22,880 --> 04:35:25,639
the state of Poland is a sacred thing. I mean.

4417
04:35:25,840 --> 04:35:30,240
But aside from like the garbage of that, the the

4418
04:35:30,520 --> 04:35:34,599
status of Vietnam actually was genuinely ambiguous, you know, and

4419
04:35:35,479 --> 04:35:39,319
the succession of governments America really kind of mishandled that.

4420
04:35:39,880 --> 04:35:42,159
You know. It's like, okay, I mean, you know, you

4421
04:35:42,240 --> 04:35:44,639
had a guy like DM who straight up you know,

4422
04:35:44,680 --> 04:35:47,040
who straight up whacked because it was pretty clear he

4423
04:35:47,119 --> 04:35:48,720
was just gonna go all in and say like, hey,

4424
04:35:48,799 --> 04:35:53,159
look ala lala, like a national election, you know, basically,

4425
04:35:53,319 --> 04:35:57,439
and I think him, being in the kind of hustler

4426
04:35:57,479 --> 04:35:59,479
that he was, was looking to carve out some kind

4427
04:35:59,520 --> 04:36:02,959
of it's I king of space, uh, in the regime,

4428
04:36:03,919 --> 04:36:06,959
you know, for for him and those like himself, you know.

4429
04:36:07,159 --> 04:36:09,919
But he obviously, you know, America wasn't going to tolerate that.

4430
04:36:10,159 --> 04:36:12,639
But you know, their successors, you know, he had a

4431
04:36:12,639 --> 04:36:16,200
guy like too who was completely a hard line on

4432
04:36:16,240 --> 04:36:20,159
the Communists, but that that wasn't reasonable either, you know,

4433
04:36:20,319 --> 04:36:23,360
and they had to come to terms somehow. And I

4434
04:36:23,479 --> 04:36:29,840
believe Nixon's reasoning was you know, just strictly like in

4435
04:36:29,919 --> 04:36:32,080
theater in terms of the military situation and how it

4436
04:36:32,159 --> 04:36:38,599
impacted the delicate politics. As I said, if uh, if

4437
04:36:38,639 --> 04:36:43,080
there'd been a normal uh political situation in America, and

4438
04:36:43,119 --> 04:36:45,799
if you'd had you know, if if they're hadn't been

4439
04:36:45,880 --> 04:36:49,040
like quite literally a coup against Nixon, if you hadn't

4440
04:36:49,040 --> 04:36:51,200
had in Congress that you know, full of people who

4441
04:36:51,200 --> 04:36:55,479
are essentially campaigning on, you know, building a career on

4442
04:36:55,720 --> 04:36:59,680
you know, condemning the promoted evil of Vietnam war, had

4443
04:36:59,680 --> 04:37:03,159
the true doctrine being a bite it as intended, I

4444
04:37:03,240 --> 04:37:05,759
think South Vietnam could have basically held off a northern

4445
04:37:05,799 --> 04:37:10,560
assaultant definitely, and as perverse logic. The body count was

4446
04:37:10,639 --> 04:37:14,479
particularly as realized. You know, North Vietnam had been at

4447
04:37:14,560 --> 04:37:18,080
war for decades, and this thing of the burn rate,

4448
04:37:18,119 --> 04:37:20,279
they were losing a huge amount of military age males.

4449
04:37:20,880 --> 04:37:23,840
I mean, at some point the enormans would not have

4450
04:37:23,880 --> 04:37:26,279
been able to sustain that, you know, at some point

4451
04:37:27,639 --> 04:37:30,560
unless you're talking about some unless you're talking about some

4452
04:37:31,040 --> 04:37:34,799
crazy situation like the farc in Cambodia where you're literally

4453
04:37:34,840 --> 04:37:37,720
talking about dudes like living in the jungle, not metaphorically

4454
04:37:37,880 --> 04:37:41,680
literally you know who are like running running cocaine and

4455
04:37:41,840 --> 04:37:47,560
dope and uh, you know, carrying on some alleged insurgency

4456
04:37:47,639 --> 04:37:51,040
for fifty years, which probably more than anything. That's kind

4457
04:37:51,040 --> 04:37:53,159
of like a cover for their little like narco trade

4458
04:37:53,200 --> 04:37:58,520
and their bizarre kind of you know, anarchical primitives existence.

4459
04:37:58,919 --> 04:38:00,880
Like you can't you can't just a you know, a

4460
04:38:00,959 --> 04:38:04,840
revolutionary campaign for decades on decades, and we're not talking

4461
04:38:04,840 --> 04:38:07,159
about a low intensity campaign like the p I RA

4462
04:38:07,439 --> 04:38:10,360
and in Belfast. I mean even that is difficult. But

4463
04:38:10,799 --> 04:38:13,720
you know, we're talking about you know, the North India's

4464
04:38:13,799 --> 04:38:15,880
army was actually a crack army, and we're talking about

4465
04:38:15,959 --> 04:38:19,799
combined arms assaults. You know, where mass numbers of men

4466
04:38:19,959 --> 04:38:24,159
are dying. You know, uh where you know you're you're

4467
04:38:24,200 --> 04:38:27,720
assaulting with uh, you're restulting with columns a T fifty

4468
04:38:27,759 --> 04:38:30,360
four tanks. They have to be fueled, you know. Uh,

4469
04:38:31,400 --> 04:38:35,040
they're being uh they're they're getting close air support from

4470
04:38:35,080 --> 04:38:37,799
MiG seven teens that you know, with pilots, they have

4471
04:38:37,880 --> 04:38:40,080
to be trained extensively, and when they die, they're hard.

4472
04:38:40,119 --> 04:38:44,799
It's hard to replace them. You know, you're periodically, you know,

4473
04:38:45,759 --> 04:38:48,159
your capital city is periodically getting like bombed into the

4474
04:38:48,200 --> 04:38:50,599
fucking stone Age, you know what I mean, Like it

4475
04:38:50,759 --> 04:38:52,959
does take its toll over time, you know what I

4476
04:38:53,040 --> 04:38:58,560
mean and that, uh, I don't the vietnames initially thought

4477
04:38:58,599 --> 04:39:00,959
it would probably take them to the nineteen seventy nine,

4478
04:39:01,040 --> 04:39:03,959
nineteen eighty to win the war, like hannoy, I mean,

4479
04:39:04,720 --> 04:39:08,080
And there is interesting talk because obviously anyone who spoke

4480
04:39:08,959 --> 04:39:12,759
on the Central Committee like picked their language carefully, you know,

4481
04:39:12,799 --> 04:39:15,479
as people doing government, but particularly governments at war and

4482
04:39:15,639 --> 04:39:19,200
especially you know, the communist regimes the Cold War, you

4483
04:39:19,240 --> 04:39:23,119
could tell these guys were nervous, like military and civilian alike,

4484
04:39:23,319 --> 04:39:27,240
like look, basically, beyond nineteen eighty, all bets are off

4485
04:39:27,880 --> 04:39:31,159
like translated and really win the lines like we can't

4486
04:39:31,200 --> 04:39:38,680
sustain this indefinitely, you know. So there is that. But well,

4487
04:39:38,680 --> 04:39:40,439
I think I did want to raise I made the

4488
04:39:40,479 --> 04:39:43,439
point that in my opinion, and I'm not prilinologists, I

4489
04:39:43,439 --> 04:39:46,639
don't speak Russian, but I do know something about the

4490
04:39:46,759 --> 04:39:52,880
Soviet Union, and I believe firmly that the Soviet Union

4491
04:39:53,000 --> 04:39:57,400
was that zenith when the shadow Executive was this direfect

4492
04:39:57,520 --> 04:40:02,400
of u usnov Gramiko and and drop off and drop

4493
04:40:02,479 --> 04:40:06,080
off really really had the United States's number, okay, and

4494
04:40:06,200 --> 04:40:08,599
he under in a way that most Russians don't, in

4495
04:40:08,639 --> 04:40:12,000
the way frankly most like Eastern bloc types didn't. And

4496
04:40:12,119 --> 04:40:14,159
that's one of the reasons why he was so effective.

4497
04:40:14,919 --> 04:40:18,319
And he very much understood that if you can really

4498
04:40:18,439 --> 04:40:23,799
really fuck with, you know, the the internal situation of

4499
04:40:23,840 --> 04:40:28,400
America and and carve out a genuine like single issue

4500
04:40:28,439 --> 04:40:31,240
opposition on a matter of war and peace, you can

4501
04:40:31,319 --> 04:40:34,240
really really use food bar their system. You know. That's

4502
04:40:34,279 --> 04:40:36,720
kind of like America's weak point, just like Solidarity was

4503
04:40:36,720 --> 04:40:39,400
like the weak point of these Iron Curtain regimes, and

4504
04:40:39,560 --> 04:40:45,279
like its similar you know, uh, similarly structured things. You know.

4505
04:40:45,400 --> 04:40:47,759
Solidarity of course was it was like it basically a

4506
04:40:47,840 --> 04:40:51,759
Catholic social teaching movement that was at base, you know,

4507
04:40:51,919 --> 04:40:54,799
like a labor union, you know, that was demanding what

4508
04:40:54,880 --> 04:40:57,520
the party was was always promising but never delivering on.

4509
04:40:58,040 --> 04:41:01,520
And that was like kryptonite to the you know, Marcus

4510
04:41:01,599 --> 04:41:09,040
Lennon is Cadres that ruled you know it. Uh So, yeah,

4511
04:41:09,159 --> 04:41:11,400
there was. It's kind of a perfect storm of things

4512
04:41:11,479 --> 04:41:17,319
that made, you know, made the situation untenable visa the

4513
04:41:17,560 --> 04:41:21,119
South Vietnam. But I also I mean, and again I

4514
04:41:21,799 --> 04:41:24,520
want to well in the discussion just a bit, I

4515
04:41:24,560 --> 04:41:26,319
got to come to the point again again because people

4516
04:41:26,360 --> 04:41:28,880
like like Vietnam's is weird anominally you're this like unique

4517
04:41:28,919 --> 04:41:31,880
and remarkable evil. You know, we talked about the reason

4518
04:41:31,919 --> 04:41:34,840
I raised this with Cito, you know Scato, so all

4519
04:41:34,840 --> 04:41:37,759
these days a treaty, the organization, the nineteen fifty four

4520
04:41:39,360 --> 04:41:45,439
Dual Accords of Korea and into China, and the Truman doctrine,

4521
04:41:45,840 --> 04:41:49,560
like this was entirely congruous with US policy after after

4522
04:41:49,599 --> 04:41:52,560
the Second World War, like the cost of waiting a

4523
04:41:52,560 --> 04:41:56,840
Second World War, among other things, was when these primitive

4524
04:41:57,360 --> 04:41:59,959
as hell third world nations, which of those the true

4525
04:42:00,080 --> 04:42:03,080
were primitive, like people living in huts, when they come

4526
04:42:03,159 --> 04:42:06,520
unto assault by ivan, you go defend them, and your

4527
04:42:06,639 --> 04:42:09,560
kids go defend them, and your tax dollars go defend them,

4528
04:42:09,919 --> 04:42:12,240
and you lose those things. I mean that this was

4529
04:42:12,360 --> 04:42:16,000
very well understood. You know. That was the Cold War

4530
04:42:17,479 --> 04:42:22,319
that came to an end, in part because Watchington realized

4531
04:42:22,360 --> 04:42:24,720
it wasn't tenable. Part was the revolution and military affairs,

4532
04:42:25,119 --> 04:42:28,279
but part of it was just it took. It took

4533
04:42:28,400 --> 04:42:32,599
thirty years for the damage brought by World War Two

4534
04:42:32,680 --> 04:42:35,520
to be repaired and for these states like Korea to

4535
04:42:35,639 --> 04:42:39,919
be built into like functional client states with a comic

4536
04:42:39,959 --> 04:42:44,319
capability of their own. I mean, that's you know, I

4537
04:42:44,360 --> 04:42:46,880
don't want to see what America could have done within

4538
04:42:46,959 --> 04:42:50,319
the I'm not I don't think World War two gymen fought, obviously,

4539
04:42:50,479 --> 04:42:55,040
but within the power of rationality if I'm if I'm Kennedy,

4540
04:42:55,240 --> 04:42:59,799
or if I'm macnamara, or if I'm Nixon in sixteen,

4541
04:43:00,040 --> 04:43:03,200
in February sixty nineteen to the office, like one of

4542
04:43:03,240 --> 04:43:05,279
my doing sell these days to say, Okay, the Truman

4543
04:43:05,360 --> 04:43:09,119
doctrine's off, the Cold War's off. We're not gonna defend Vietnam.

4544
04:43:09,279 --> 04:43:12,520
We're not not pre commitments. You know, we may not

4545
04:43:12,639 --> 04:43:16,119
even defend West Berlin. I don't know. Because war is

4546
04:43:16,159 --> 04:43:18,200
bad and just people don't like it and it's messy

4547
04:43:18,240 --> 04:43:20,279
and people die. I mean, like what is the other

4548
04:43:20,279 --> 04:43:22,720
people that should have been done? You know, I mean

4549
04:43:23,799 --> 04:43:27,360
that's arguably that's why it was incredibly it's side of

4550
04:43:27,400 --> 04:43:29,560
the fact, don't genocide your own civilization. And it was

4551
04:43:29,599 --> 04:43:32,560
incredibly stupid to wage World War two because this was

4552
04:43:32,599 --> 04:43:35,520
the result, you know. I mean, Okay, well now you

4553
04:43:35,599 --> 04:43:38,159
get no not now you get to fight ivan for

4554
04:43:38,240 --> 04:43:41,119
the rest of the planet. I mean, you know, and

4555
04:43:41,240 --> 04:43:46,639
that's what happened. So this was like nobody really explained

4556
04:43:46,639 --> 04:43:49,400
to me. It's like it was good to wouldcinerate, you know,

4557
04:43:50,840 --> 04:43:52,560
it was good to would cinerate you know, one hundred

4558
04:43:52,560 --> 04:43:55,159
and many thousand people at Dresden. But the most evil

4559
04:43:55,240 --> 04:43:57,880
thing ever was other than you know, the quote unte

4560
04:43:57,919 --> 04:44:01,919
Holocaust was like blowing away like Vietnamese villagers at MELI.

4561
04:44:02,520 --> 04:44:05,279
I'm not trying to be flipping because that's that's fucking horrible, Okay,

4562
04:44:05,400 --> 04:44:07,919
Like both those things are horrible, but nobody can tell me,

4563
04:44:08,040 --> 04:44:10,319
like why the ladder is like, you know, the Day

4564
04:44:10,360 --> 04:44:12,520
of Miracle lost its innocence, but the form was just

4565
04:44:12,680 --> 04:44:15,240
like something that like had to be done, you know,

4566
04:44:15,360 --> 04:44:18,720
like it doesn't There's a lot of dishonesty about Vietnam.

4567
04:44:19,599 --> 04:44:20,720
You know. It's kind of like it's kind of like

4568
04:44:20,759 --> 04:44:23,400
the dishonesty of World War two and reverse, you know,

4569
04:44:23,560 --> 04:44:27,040
like and this is faded because it's fad of misterical memory,

4570
04:44:27,159 --> 04:44:30,000
but I mean you remember because you're a little, just

4571
04:44:30,040 --> 04:44:33,439
a little than me. Like Vietnam is presented as like

4572
04:44:33,680 --> 04:44:36,439
the worst war ever waged for like reasons no one

4573
04:44:36,439 --> 04:44:41,360
can particulate, you know, like why like yeah, and the

4574
04:44:41,680 --> 04:44:45,959
whole thing was very was very very cynical and ideologically German.

4575
04:44:46,080 --> 04:44:52,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, well, is that because everything after Nuremberg has

4576
04:44:52,159 --> 04:44:55,880
to have a moral component to it. Yeah, if you have,

4577
04:44:56,159 --> 04:45:00,560
if you apply to a moral component to anything, then

4578
04:45:01,759 --> 04:45:04,599
if you start with the morality it's a good war,

4579
04:45:05,119 --> 04:45:09,040
it's a bad war, then you can I mean, you're

4580
04:45:09,080 --> 04:45:14,680
basically pulling at the heartstrings of Middle America, of Protestant America,

4581
04:45:14,799 --> 04:45:19,520
church going America and around like the dog of course.

4582
04:45:19,599 --> 04:45:21,479
Speaker 2: But at my point is it was arbitrary, you know,

4583
04:45:21,560 --> 04:45:24,400
and it's like the like it was, I realized why

4584
04:45:24,479 --> 04:45:26,720
people were doing this, and I realized why this Fifth

4585
04:45:26,799 --> 04:45:30,119
Column developed the way it did and why they focused

4586
04:45:30,159 --> 04:45:32,799
on Vietnam. But in absolute terms, like this doesn't make

4587
04:45:32,799 --> 04:45:35,040
any sense, you know, and like I said, Vietnam is

4588
04:45:35,080 --> 04:45:40,360
exceptionalized like people, you know, the narrative presented by you know,

4589
04:45:40,400 --> 04:45:42,959
people that are on COVID, people like Oliver Stone, you know,

4590
04:45:43,080 --> 04:45:45,919
people in the era like Abbie Hoffman was that this

4591
04:45:46,040 --> 04:45:49,040
is like kind of conspiratorial design. It's like, look, man,

4592
04:45:49,200 --> 04:45:52,319
like the human doctrine is very clear, like America deployed

4593
04:45:52,360 --> 04:45:55,959
and pretty much exactly the same way in in Korea

4594
04:45:56,360 --> 04:46:01,840
and the Dominican Republic in sixty five in Bolivia, a

4595
04:46:01,959 --> 04:46:07,439
rundown Shagwavara decades later in Nicaragua, and I'll sell it

4596
04:46:07,479 --> 04:46:10,639
to or although obviously those weren't you know, those weren't

4597
04:46:10,639 --> 04:46:14,520
deep employments. Like it's not like America abiding the Truman

4598
04:46:14,639 --> 04:46:18,200
doctrine and you know, realizing I had to fight it

4599
04:46:18,279 --> 04:46:23,319
still be a client regime to maintain credibility. I missed

4600
04:46:23,439 --> 04:46:27,040
uh as as as the error strategic parody was imminent

4601
04:46:27,159 --> 04:46:29,240
like that it's not something weird thing like hard to

4602
04:46:29,639 --> 04:46:32,880
like difficult to decipher, like I you know, and again

4603
04:46:32,959 --> 04:46:36,560
like nobody explained to me why like why why Like

4604
04:46:37,200 --> 04:46:41,319
annihilating Europe uh and sarificing your son is like I'm

4605
04:46:41,959 --> 04:46:45,919
on Guadalcanal is like awesome, but you know, like losing

4606
04:46:45,959 --> 04:46:48,040
your son and I had drank or q son is

4607
04:46:48,119 --> 04:46:51,279
like this great evil like when America lost its innocence.

4608
04:46:51,720 --> 04:46:55,479
Like it's just it's just it's just stupid, and you

4609
04:46:55,560 --> 04:46:56,919
know it's and it's beyond stupid.

4610
04:46:56,959 --> 04:47:03,080
Speaker 1: It's you know, well they just said that it it

4611
04:47:03,279 --> 04:47:08,720
just really became a a trope that it this wasn't

4612
04:47:08,799 --> 04:47:11,080
the war to fight, that there was nothing good about

4613
04:47:11,119 --> 04:47:15,520
this War sixty eight. You know, even Cronkite is saying

4614
04:47:15,639 --> 04:47:16,799
that the war can't be won.

4615
04:47:17,599 --> 04:47:19,720
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and again too, like imagine, I mean there

4616
04:47:19,759 --> 04:47:23,319
were but think about this, like imagine in nineteen forty three.

4617
04:47:23,439 --> 04:47:26,759
Imagine after you know what, the United the USR didn't

4618
04:47:26,799 --> 04:47:29,880
meet the Wehrmachten combat until forty three, and they got

4619
04:47:29,919 --> 04:47:33,400
their asses kicked the casserine pass. Like imagine if Walter

4620
04:47:33,520 --> 04:47:36,439
Winschall had gone on the radio and said, mister Roosevelt's

4621
04:47:36,439 --> 04:47:39,080
a liar, World War two can't be one. You know,

4622
04:47:39,560 --> 04:47:42,680
victory of the access is imminent. Like dude would have

4623
04:47:42,720 --> 04:47:45,759
been arrested, have not disappeared, you know what I mean.

4624
04:47:45,959 --> 04:47:48,360
Like it's it's it's it's a joke. But you can't

4625
04:47:48,400 --> 04:47:50,560
make this up, you know, like the my actics was

4626
04:47:50,599 --> 04:47:54,360
just some like normal occurrence or just like sound journalism.

4627
04:47:54,959 --> 04:47:58,439
And again, I mean Americans did this weird idea. Like

4628
04:47:58,520 --> 04:48:01,360
I said, the two kind of most puzzling myss to

4629
04:48:01,400 --> 04:48:04,319
me because it's otherwise like intelligent people you know, who

4630
04:48:04,439 --> 04:48:08,400
present this these things I'm about to raise. You know,

4631
04:48:08,479 --> 04:48:11,080
it's not just like dumb people who were creating worldships.

4632
04:48:11,080 --> 04:48:13,360
They've heard It's like the guys who say with Michael

4633
04:48:13,400 --> 04:48:15,680
Savage did I mean Savage isn't smart, but the arts

4634
04:48:15,720 --> 04:48:17,520
marketing to say it is like, oh, America was like

4635
04:48:17,560 --> 04:48:19,959
just pusty footing around in Vietnam and we killed them

4636
04:48:20,040 --> 04:48:21,959
like three million people and it was literally like a

4637
04:48:22,000 --> 04:48:24,720
fucking scalpont. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not like saying that butt

4638
04:48:24,720 --> 04:48:27,200
shade on on on the Vietnam Army. I've got a

4639
04:48:27,240 --> 04:48:31,159
lot of respect for them guys and I but the

4640
04:48:31,279 --> 04:48:33,319
but I mean, look, man, it's real, like we we

4641
04:48:33,479 --> 04:48:35,799
killed a fucking huge amount of those people and we

4642
04:48:35,919 --> 04:48:39,240
were being like we were we were being like we're

4643
04:48:39,400 --> 04:48:41,680
doing like cowboys shit around. It's you know, like so

4644
04:48:41,759 --> 04:48:44,360
it's like, don't pretend that, like, you know, don't pretend

4645
04:48:44,400 --> 04:48:47,479
like killing millions of these fucking people with like firepower

4646
04:48:47,520 --> 04:48:50,159
with that was purpose to fight the Soviet Union, like

4647
04:48:50,279 --> 04:48:52,799
it was like something like low key thing that was

4648
04:48:52,880 --> 04:48:57,360
like not not real war. But also the like when

4649
04:48:57,400 --> 04:49:00,560
people claim like Vietnam it was just like a stupid war,

4650
04:49:00,720 --> 04:49:02,520
it's like, look, I mean, like I said, part ways

4651
04:49:02,560 --> 04:49:04,759
the mirror stand on this. You know, like you don't

4652
04:49:06,720 --> 04:49:08,560
you know, you don't fight you didn't fight wars in

4653
04:49:08,680 --> 04:49:12,159
nineteen sixty eight, you know, to like access to like

4654
04:49:12,279 --> 04:49:15,279
more like grain reserves, you know, or like you know,

4655
04:49:15,400 --> 04:49:18,200
control the ability to like you know, ship like silk

4656
04:49:18,240 --> 04:49:19,759
out of out of out of out of the fucking

4657
04:49:20,000 --> 04:49:22,959
you know, out of China, back to back to Europe

4658
04:49:23,040 --> 04:49:26,200
or something. You know, Like it didn't matter where Vietnam was.

4659
04:49:26,520 --> 04:49:28,279
You know, that's where the line is, say, was drawn.

4660
04:49:28,360 --> 04:49:30,919
That's where the Reds pushed, you know, and if you're

4661
04:49:30,919 --> 04:49:33,159
gonna if you're gonna win the Cold War, like wherever

4662
04:49:33,200 --> 04:49:36,080
the Reds push. It might be Bolivia, it might be Iran,

4663
04:49:36,240 --> 04:49:38,840
it might be Vietnam, it might be Angola, like it

4664
04:49:38,919 --> 04:49:41,279
might be it might be West Berlin. Like that's where

4665
04:49:41,319 --> 04:49:43,759
you fight them. You know, Like the issue is like

4666
04:49:44,000 --> 04:49:49,000
who's gonna you know, the color was fought in every

4667
04:49:49,360 --> 04:49:54,200
in every aspect of conceptual political life, you know, like economically,

4668
04:49:54,520 --> 04:49:59,200
like culturally, like technologically and militarily you know, you know,

4669
04:49:59,400 --> 04:50:01,200
you can like pick and choose like where you fight,

4670
04:50:01,720 --> 04:50:03,479
you know, and that's and plus like wars like a

4671
04:50:03,720 --> 04:50:06,360
like we talked about war rihves like the seasons. I mean,

4672
04:50:06,439 --> 04:50:09,919
that's that's the problem with clouds, of which is victims

4673
04:50:10,000 --> 04:50:12,680
like taking the kind of this sort of like like

4674
04:50:13,080 --> 04:50:16,000
like logical extreme it becomes a g irrational like you

4675
04:50:16,080 --> 04:50:17,799
not like you don't just like go to war like

4676
04:50:18,000 --> 04:50:21,040
affect like policy ambitions by other means, you know, like

4677
04:50:21,119 --> 04:50:24,080
war rives like the seasons, and there's about irrationality to

4678
04:50:24,159 --> 04:50:27,240
warfare absolutely and warf is a rational process the way

4679
04:50:27,279 --> 04:50:29,840
it's fought. But like you don't just go to war

4680
04:50:29,959 --> 04:50:33,080
because it's like I you know, I can't. I don't

4681
04:50:33,119 --> 04:50:35,159
like I don't like the trade arraignments that of country.

4682
04:50:35,240 --> 04:50:37,880
Why I know I'm gonna launch a massive assault on

4683
04:50:38,000 --> 04:50:41,840
them like that. That's that's not how things work. And

4684
04:50:42,080 --> 04:50:46,040
that I said, like I want to sell you my house.

4685
04:50:46,959 --> 04:50:48,560
Maybe if I go to your house and like beat

4686
04:50:48,599 --> 04:50:50,279
the ship out of you, like that'll help me like

4687
04:50:50,319 --> 04:50:53,840
get a better deal. I mean it's like not, that's

4688
04:50:53,840 --> 04:50:55,919
not how people think, you know, Like that's that's not

4689
04:50:56,119 --> 04:50:58,360
like things are done, you know, like and it's not

4690
04:50:59,000 --> 04:51:01,720
I realized that's like sounds but you know, the uh,

4691
04:51:02,360 --> 04:51:04,200
you know, this is a very important point. And that's

4692
04:51:04,240 --> 04:51:06,799
one of the things that's why as that race sorel

4693
04:51:07,599 --> 04:51:09,880
It's not just because I mean, like ideas an aesthetics

4694
04:51:09,959 --> 04:51:11,959
and things in the way like people view like labor

4695
04:51:12,080 --> 04:51:17,080
and the way identitarian things in political life. I mean,

4696
04:51:17,080 --> 04:51:18,919
he deals with those things in intelligent ways, that is

4697
04:51:19,319 --> 04:51:22,919
to people like us. But it's like ontological view of

4698
04:51:23,000 --> 04:51:25,599
like conflict, Like this is something that happens, like it's

4699
04:51:25,639 --> 04:51:28,119
not this rational thing. It arrives like it's like why

4700
04:51:28,200 --> 04:51:31,439
you find like a girl attractive. It's like why. It's

4701
04:51:31,560 --> 04:51:34,720
like why, it's like why certain symbols like take root,

4702
04:51:34,840 --> 04:51:37,119
like during cultural epox It's like it's it's like why

4703
04:51:37,240 --> 04:51:40,000
winter comes. Where at war? Now, you know, war arrives.

4704
04:51:40,400 --> 04:51:45,200
I mean that I realize that was a bit far afield. Yeah,

4705
04:51:45,319 --> 04:51:48,000
I think that's important. I mean, in none doesn't regards

4706
04:51:48,000 --> 04:51:50,759
to Vietnam, but in the case of Vietnam, it's particularly

4707
04:51:50,880 --> 04:51:53,200
kind of like neglected that you know, Yeah, we'll go ahead.

4708
04:51:53,240 --> 04:51:57,639
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Oh, no problem. Well we're coming up on

4709
04:51:57,720 --> 04:51:59,919
the hour, so let me end with this, because I

4710
04:52:00,040 --> 04:52:01,759
know you could probably go on a little bit about this.

4711
04:52:03,200 --> 04:52:07,680
The common trope even till today, is that the United

4712
04:52:07,759 --> 04:52:12,919
States lost the Vietnam War. What what is your opinion

4713
04:52:12,959 --> 04:52:15,759
when you hear somebody say that, what thoughts come into

4714
04:52:15,799 --> 04:52:16,119
your mind?

4715
04:52:17,279 --> 04:52:20,240
Speaker 2: I mean, I agree with John Paul Van. For those

4716
04:52:20,279 --> 04:52:23,639
who don't know, Van was a really interesting guy and

4717
04:52:23,680 --> 04:52:26,400
a very troubled guy. He he had kind of like

4718
04:52:26,439 --> 04:52:30,840
a horrible upbringing, like mom was literally like an alcoholic prostitute,

4719
04:52:31,000 --> 04:52:35,439
like didn't know his father. Joins the Army Air Corps,

4720
04:52:36,319 --> 04:52:39,799
gets train as a pilot. World War Two ends before

4721
04:52:39,799 --> 04:52:45,400
he sees action. When the Air Force man an independent service,

4722
04:52:46,000 --> 04:52:47,479
he wanted to stay in the Army, so he became

4723
04:52:47,479 --> 04:52:53,360
an infantry officer. Long story short. He commanded a company

4724
04:52:54,439 --> 04:52:58,560
and then a ranger battalion in Korea, and David Hackworth,

4725
04:52:58,599 --> 04:53:00,880
the young David hacker was under his command, and Van

4726
04:53:01,000 --> 04:53:05,479
became as like whole badass. Okay, he had problems with alcohol,

4727
04:53:05,599 --> 04:53:07,520
He got into shit with an underage girl. I mean,

4728
04:53:07,720 --> 04:53:10,159
typical like warrior type. It was his own worst enemy,

4729
04:53:10,240 --> 04:53:14,319
but like a really brilliant soldier. And when he left

4730
04:53:14,360 --> 04:53:17,720
the service he was one of the before his last

4731
04:53:17,799 --> 04:53:22,479
kind of role in the uniform, he's one of the

4732
04:53:22,560 --> 04:53:26,720
first guys deployed the mcavee Okay militarysisans comand Vietnam in

4733
04:53:26,799 --> 04:53:31,599
nineteen sixty two. And the reasoning there that we talked about,

4734
04:53:31,639 --> 04:53:35,360
there's more much a Special Forces war, you know, counterinsurgency

4735
04:53:35,520 --> 04:53:44,119
direct action, identifying cadres and eliminating them. Okay, sixty four.

4736
04:53:45,400 --> 04:53:50,919
After two years at MCVEE, Colonel Van retires. He becomes

4737
04:53:50,959 --> 04:53:54,880
this independent like defense consultant. Now lo and behold. A

4738
04:53:54,959 --> 04:53:57,720
year later, this like massive build up happens and Van

4739
04:53:57,880 --> 04:54:00,639
is like, what the hell are you doing? And Van

4740
04:54:00,720 --> 04:54:03,080
so lit of these friends in the Pentagon. So he

4741
04:54:03,240 --> 04:54:05,319
was able to get back to Vietnam as a civilian,

4742
04:54:05,439 --> 04:54:09,799
and he ultimately died in nineteen seventy two and in

4743
04:54:09,919 --> 04:54:13,919
a shopper crash. But he Van wrote a book with

4744
04:54:13,919 --> 04:54:17,319
a bright shining why, and this kind of put the

4745
04:54:17,439 --> 04:54:20,599
Vietnam War in perspective for me in terms, and I

4746
04:54:20,680 --> 04:54:22,639
was a kid, and I highly recommend it to anybody.

4747
04:54:23,840 --> 04:54:26,599
Van said, basically what I what I what I say.

4748
04:54:26,720 --> 04:54:28,919
At the outside of this discussion, I was basically borrowing

4749
04:54:29,000 --> 04:54:31,439
from a Van, like, look, you don't like win wars

4750
04:54:31,759 --> 04:54:33,240
wars on a cond of to see like how many

4751
04:54:33,319 --> 04:54:35,319
people you can kill? You know, you don't like win

4752
04:54:35,360 --> 04:54:37,599
a war by like racking up the biggest body counts

4753
04:54:37,799 --> 04:54:41,439
or by winning all the battles. You know, you win

4754
04:54:41,560 --> 04:54:48,680
wars by by annihilating the man's ability to fight, you know,

4755
04:54:48,759 --> 04:54:51,360
but it's strung as infrastructure and his you know, and

4756
04:54:51,479 --> 04:54:55,360
his ability to reconstitute and continted to wage war and

4757
04:54:55,439 --> 04:54:57,840
by breaking his political will to wage war in any

4758
04:54:57,919 --> 04:55:01,080
number of ways, and some constellations those things like wins

4759
04:55:01,159 --> 04:55:04,159
the war. So no, America lost the Vietnam War. But

4760
04:55:04,479 --> 04:55:06,919
Americans look at this like a football game or something like, hey,

4761
04:55:06,959 --> 04:55:09,919
we killed more of those people, like okay, great man,

4762
04:55:10,080 --> 04:55:14,279
like the the like again the Merrimont killed something like

4763
04:55:15,080 --> 04:55:17,799
they're they're there. Burn ratio is in like fifteen to one.

4764
04:55:17,880 --> 04:55:20,439
I'm not exaggerating, Okay, I mean does does that mean

4765
04:55:20,560 --> 04:55:22,799
like does I mean that the German right won World

4766
04:55:22,799 --> 04:55:26,040
War two because they killed twenty million Russians? I mean

4767
04:55:26,159 --> 04:55:28,319
at uh, you know, And it's not it's not a

4768
04:55:28,400 --> 04:55:31,080
football game like saying like hey at Aya drying, like

4769
04:55:31,360 --> 04:55:33,680
we kicked more Vietnams. It's like they didn't really win

4770
04:55:33,959 --> 04:55:39,959
or like whatever Westmoreland's cope was it? You know, the

4771
04:55:40,159 --> 04:55:43,400
uh and and Van was absolutely right. The problem with

4772
04:55:43,439 --> 04:55:46,720
America is that it set the firepower. That's something that

4773
04:55:46,799 --> 04:55:50,919
America borrowed from the German General Staff of old. But

4774
04:55:51,200 --> 04:55:56,080
with kind of without the kind of uh tactical flexibility

4775
04:55:56,119 --> 04:55:58,680
and intelligence of the German General staff. It's like the

4776
04:55:58,720 --> 04:56:02,119
American notion is that fire power solves all problems. It

4777
04:56:02,200 --> 04:56:04,439
doesn't matter what it is. If you're throw in a

4778
04:56:04,479 --> 04:56:06,840
firepower at it's gonna be defeated. Nothing can stand up

4779
04:56:06,880 --> 04:56:11,119
to American combined arms. That's not true. I mean, yeah,

4780
04:56:11,119 --> 04:56:13,599
I guess there's no if you if you throw it

4781
04:56:13,680 --> 04:56:15,919
a firepower at Vietnam, you would continue to kill two

4782
04:56:16,000 --> 04:56:18,319
numbers of people. They could probably turn it into like

4783
04:56:18,360 --> 04:56:22,119
a non functional country. I mean, especially had one resorted

4784
04:56:22,159 --> 04:56:26,159
to nuclear and biological weapons. But that's not You don't

4785
04:56:26,159 --> 04:56:30,919
wage war to just annihilate countries, you know. That's why

4786
04:56:30,959 --> 04:56:34,479
the Carthaginian peace has become like this mythological thing. I mean,

4787
04:56:34,520 --> 04:56:37,599
I assume I'm not in general, but I do know something.

4788
04:56:38,279 --> 04:56:43,279
So no, I mean America, America lost the Vietnam War

4789
04:56:43,479 --> 04:56:47,639
because it it was I mean again too, it's like,

4790
04:56:47,680 --> 04:56:51,200
what's your victory metric? I mean, like the minute, the minute,

4791
04:56:52,040 --> 04:56:55,240
the minute those guys, those little yellow guys with with

4792
04:56:55,479 --> 04:56:59,400
red stars on their pith helmets were running into Saigon

4793
04:56:59,599 --> 04:57:02,240
with their with They're clashing the costs. They look too

4794
04:57:02,240 --> 04:57:04,000
big for him. And these guys are running. They were

4795
04:57:04,240 --> 04:57:06,479
they were double timing. These guys have been more at

4796
04:57:06,479 --> 04:57:09,479
war for thirty years. Think about that. I mean that

4797
04:57:10,040 --> 04:57:12,680
that's when that's when the hand only won that war. Okay,

4798
04:57:12,799 --> 04:57:19,520
I mean so the uh the you know, I I

4799
04:57:19,799 --> 04:57:21,080
look at that, and then if you look at them

4800
04:57:21,080 --> 04:57:23,040
when I say that, because again, they got it's like

4801
04:57:23,119 --> 04:57:25,880
some pride thing or something like like I'm making fun

4802
04:57:25,919 --> 04:57:28,400
of their favorite football team or something, you know, And

4803
04:57:28,479 --> 04:57:29,919
like I said, I've got I've got all. I've got

4804
04:57:30,040 --> 04:57:32,200
huge respects for the Vietnam Army. Not just that's like

4805
04:57:32,240 --> 04:57:35,479
my dad's generation, but they're like fascinating guys and like

4806
04:57:36,279 --> 04:57:38,360
that's when the US Army was, Yeah, it's best. And

4807
04:57:38,439 --> 04:57:40,439
plus it was was like cool you had like that

4808
04:57:40,560 --> 04:57:44,040
was the only time like you had like weird in

4809
04:57:44,119 --> 04:57:45,959
the army too. You had like weird like long hair

4810
04:57:46,080 --> 04:57:50,319
eyes and like and like weird rednecky guys like like

4811
04:57:50,840 --> 04:57:53,919
like crazy ass like like dude like huge afros, like

4812
04:57:54,040 --> 04:57:56,759
fucking I'm like being silly, but like not you know,

4813
04:57:56,840 --> 04:57:59,799
I'm like I really play about a trope. But I

4814
04:58:00,040 --> 04:58:01,959
I'm the last person who's going to say anything nasty

4815
04:58:02,000 --> 04:58:04,720
about the Vietnam Army, like those guys are like the best.

4816
04:58:05,880 --> 04:58:08,279
They were like legit, like what was cool about America?

4817
04:58:08,520 --> 04:58:12,639
Like legit, you know, but going around saying and it

4818
04:58:12,720 --> 04:58:14,919
wasn't and it wasn't their fault, like they those guys

4819
04:58:14,959 --> 04:58:18,599
that those guys fucked splindily like they performed very very well.

4820
04:58:19,720 --> 04:58:23,000
But uh no, Marya, absolutely not when the Vietnam War.

4821
04:58:25,880 --> 04:58:29,959
Speaker 1: No, all right, well let's end it there. Thomas, please

4822
04:58:30,040 --> 04:58:32,520
give your plugs and uh yep.

4823
04:58:32,959 --> 04:58:36,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, man. You can find me on substack, which is

4824
04:58:36,119 --> 04:58:39,479
kind of like my permanent home. It's real Thomas seven

4825
04:58:39,560 --> 04:58:43,040
seven seven dot substack dot com. I beag on Twitter again,

4826
04:58:43,599 --> 04:58:45,959
but I get, I get. I get fucking nude from

4827
04:58:46,000 --> 04:58:47,959
there like all the time. But I mean, if you

4828
04:58:48,000 --> 04:58:50,119
look for me, like, you'll find me there, but it's

4829
04:58:50,799 --> 04:58:52,799
don't be like sad. If like you look for me

4830
04:58:52,840 --> 04:58:54,439
and I'm gone and I literally get banned from there

4831
04:58:54,520 --> 04:59:01,119
like every like several weeks. I'm at uh real Capital

4832
04:59:01,439 --> 04:59:05,639
r e A L underscore Thomas seven seven seven on Twitter.

4833
04:59:07,279 --> 04:59:09,520
I am launching my YouTube channel man like, and I

4834
04:59:09,599 --> 04:59:14,880
talked to my long suffering editor and like production guy

4835
04:59:15,159 --> 04:59:18,520
and he's ready to go. So this weekend, I gotta

4836
04:59:18,560 --> 04:59:20,919
record more with mister Pete here, and I've got to

4837
04:59:20,959 --> 04:59:24,119
record my own pod and I got to record uh

4838
04:59:25,040 --> 04:59:27,479
with a couple of dear friends of mine for the

4839
04:59:27,959 --> 04:59:30,720
channel content that's gonna go to my editor and then

4840
04:59:30,720 --> 04:59:33,720
that's gonna launch. So you can find my channel at

4841
04:59:33,759 --> 04:59:39,560
Thomas TV on YouTube. I'll uh, I link it on

4842
04:59:39,639 --> 04:59:41,599
my on my substack and I link it on my

4843
04:59:41,680 --> 04:59:43,720
Twitter if you can't find it, but there's nothing there yet,

4844
04:59:43,759 --> 04:59:45,840
but there will be in like a week. Yeah, like

4845
04:59:45,919 --> 04:59:48,000
like literally in a week, like right around the first

4846
04:59:48,080 --> 04:59:51,319
of right on the first week and during the first

4847
04:59:51,360 --> 04:59:53,959
week in February. That's what I got. Oh and my

4848
04:59:54,200 --> 04:59:56,720
my second book in my steel Storm series just drop.

4849
04:59:56,959 --> 04:59:59,959
You should get that at Imperium Press. It's imperium press

4850
05:00:00,040 --> 05:00:02,479
dot org. The book is steel Storm two. It's the

4851
05:00:02,560 --> 05:00:07,720
second one of five. It's it's uh it's Frank Herbert

4852
05:00:07,759 --> 05:00:12,119
style science fiction. And I think, uh, I've gotten over

4853
05:00:12,159 --> 05:00:15,080
wrongly positive feedback on it. I wouldn't keep writing them.

4854
05:00:15,680 --> 05:00:18,439
So yeah, and thank you for that, everybody, and really,

4855
05:00:18,520 --> 05:00:20,680
really really I'm honored by that. But yeah, that's all

4856
05:00:20,680 --> 05:00:21,159
I got, man,